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From NBC News:

Senate passes bill to honor Emmett Till and his mother

The teenager’s mother insisted on an open casket to demonstrate the brutality of his killing, which galvanized the civil rights movement.
Jan. 12, 2022, 4:51 AM PST
By The Associated Press

WASHINGTON — The Senate has passed a bill to award the Congressional Gold Medal posthumously to Emmett Till, the Chicago teenager murdered by white supremacists in the 1950s, and his mother, Mamie Till-Mobley, who insisted on an open casket funeral to demonstrate the brutality of his killing.

But what about Emmett’s dad, war criminal Louis Till, who provided half of Emmett’s DNA?

Looking up the winners of the Congressional Gold Medal, I see it’s basically the legislative branch’s equivalent of the more famous Presidential Medal of Freedom, but rarer, more committee-like, and more boring, with lots of groups being honored for their accomplishments (such as the Navajo Code Talkers in 2000 and then all other Native American Code Talkers in 2008) or victimizations, such as being blown up by white supremacists or eaten by sharks (the crew of the USS Indianapolis).

Congress and the President seem to get many of their ideas about the history of heroism from movies (e.g., the Hidden Figures ladies). There’s a movie on TV about Emmett Till’s mom, so I guess that explains this one.

One thing in common across both lists is that Congress and the White House both love to honor golfers: Congress has given 6% of its Gold Medals in this century to golfers (Byron Nelson, Arnold Palmer, and Jack Nicklaus), while GW Bush honored Arnie and Jack, Obama honored Charlie Sifford, and Trump Tiger Woods, Babe Didrickson Zaharias, Gary Player and Annika Sorenstam.

 
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  1. Embarrassing is the word that comes to mind:

    )Black male killed with sexual context; gets award.

    )More Till news; too much is not enough.

    )The Stalinist clapping on racial matters continues; sanctioned by Congress.

    etc.

    • Replies: @HammerJack
    @bomag

    How many white people have been killed by black since Emmet Till? An estimate to the nearest thousand or two will suffice.

    Replies: @dixonsyder

    , @HammerJack
    @bomag

    How many white people have been killed by black people since Emmet Till? An estimate to the nearest thousand or two will suffice.

    Bonus question: why is it that none of their lives mattered? We don't even know their names.

    Replies: @bomag

    , @Etruscan Film Star
    @bomag


    The House version of the legislation is sponsored by Rep. Bobby Rush, D-Ill. He also has sponsored a bill to issue a commemorative postage stamp in honor of Mamie Till-Mobley. -- NBC News
     
    A postage stamp? No! Postage stamps come and go and are quickly forgotten. These days they often "honor" pop stars and cartoon characters. That would demean Mamie's memory.

    Let justice be done though the heavens fall! Nothing less than putting Mamie's proud visage on currency will suffice. Silver dollar? Pfooey, who carries them except coin dealers. I expect a $10 bill is probably the most used denomination of paper money (used to be a dollar bill, but that's inflation for you). Our woke masters will get the most mileage from putting her on the sawbuck. Tea for the Tillermom!

    Replies: @Che Blutarsky

  2. It’s like looking at Led Zeppelin, David Letterman, Dustin Hoffman and some others receiving the Presidential Medal of Whatever at the Kennedy Center. If you’re big enough for our dumb leaders to know who you are, then you don’t need the honor.

    • Agree: Spect3r, Ben tillman
    • Thanks: Mike Tre
    • Replies: @Angular momentum
    @Buzz Mohawk

    Getting an award with Led Zeppelin would be pretty awesome though. Just saying

    Replies: @Brutusale

    , @The Ringmaster
    @Buzz Mohawk

    What a frivolous society though.

    , @Reg Cæsar
    @Buzz Mohawk

    Is those "tranyards" around their necks?

    At a tax-abatement protest in Manhattan, you can see in the background Old Glory sharing a pole with the tranny banner, and no other flags in sight. Not borough, not city, not state.

    Replies: @Wilkey, @HammerJack

    , @S. Anonyia
    @Buzz Mohawk

    What’s with the rainbow design? Is that new or just a long-standing tradition/coincidence?

    Replies: @CCZ

  3. But what about Emmett’s dad, war criminal Louis Till, who provided half of Emmett’s DNA?

    Louis Till was an innocent black man persecuted by a wicked justice system founded on white supremacy. That would be the left-wing telling of the story. There is no hard evidence proving anything. You can’t even prove that these people existed, although there is more persuasive evidence of that.

    The political left is using the Emmett Till story as a tool to manipulate the emotions of the masses in a politically useful way. The reality of what happened a long time ago isn’t important in such a context of political utility.

    • Replies: @Nicholas Stix
    @Hi There

    "The Story of Emmett Till: Facts vs. Racist Fairy Tales"
    https://nicholasstixuncensored.blogspot.com/2021/07/the-story-of-emmett-till-facts-vs.html

    Replies: @Hi There, @Ben tillman

    , @Hannah Katz
    @Hi There

    Seems he was an aggressive teen who sexually harassed a married woman and her husband put an end to it, and to Till. Not an action we can condone, but neither should we treat sexual predators as heroes.

    Replies: @Hi There

    , @Buffalo Joe
    @Hi There

    Hi, American public education has probably devoted more time to the Holocaust than the Civil War. The dems can never find enough victim's to troll for votes.

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk

  4. @Buzz Mohawk
    It's like looking at Led Zeppelin, David Letterman, Dustin Hoffman and some others receiving the Presidential Medal of Whatever at the Kennedy Center. If you're big enough for our dumb leaders to know who you are, then you don't need the honor.


    http://i.cbc.ca/1.1669484.1379079984!/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/16x9_1180/hi-kennedy-centre-hon-cp-03669438.jpg

    Replies: @Angular momentum, @The Ringmaster, @Reg Cæsar, @S. Anonyia

    Getting an award with Led Zeppelin would be pretty awesome though. Just saying

    • Replies: @Brutusale
    @Angular momentum

    Obama and Yo Yo Ma are fans!

    https://duckduckgo.com/?q=heart+stairway+to+heaven+live+kennedy+center&atb=v257-1&iax=videos&ia=videos&iai=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D2cZ_EFAmj08

    The reaction of the band members was interesting. Session men Page and Jones were all about listening to the music, while Plant was on the verge of tears from the time Jason Bonham, the son of his old mate, walked out onto the stage.

    The story here isn't surprising. Plaques for Blaques.

  5. Congress and the President seem to get many of their ideas about the history of heroism from movies

    Speaking of movies, Biden reminds me of an elderly Forrest Gump, recounting the wondrous events in his life–being arrested in Soweto while going to see Nelson Mandela, marching with Martin Luther King in Selma, awarding a medal to a soldier in Afghanistan, going to the Tree of Life synagogue after the shooting there, driving an 18-wheeler, facing down Corn Pop and his gang, his grandpa playing football after working eight hours in the coal mines–all these memories of wondrous things that never happened.

    • Agree: The Ringmaster, bomag
    • Replies: @mmack
    @Harry Baldwin

    Momma always said a press conference with Joe Biden is like a box of chocolates: You never know what you're gonna get.

    , @Reg Cæsar
    @Harry Baldwin


    Speaking of movies, Biden reminds me of an elderly Forrest Gump
     
    Or Chance the gardener. Or Zelig, perhaps. I never saw these movies, but read some of Being There. Johnny Carson had Jerzy Kosiński on many times.


    https://s.marketwatch.com/public/resources/images/MW-EM967_seller_ZG_20160518135123.jpg

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk, @the one they call Desanex

    , @Bernard
    @Harry Baldwin


    Speaking of movies, Biden reminds me of an elderly Forrest Gump, recounting the wondrous events in his life–being arrested in Soweto while going to see Nelson Mandela, marching with Martin Luther King in Selma, awarding a medal to a soldier in Afghanistan, going to the Tree of Life synagogue after the shooting there, driving an 18-wheeler, facing down Corn Pop and his gang, his grandpa playing football after working eight hours in the coal mines–all these memories of wondrous things that never happened.
     
    Their defining difference is that Forrest Gump was a sincere character, Biden is anything but.
  6. @Buzz Mohawk
    It's like looking at Led Zeppelin, David Letterman, Dustin Hoffman and some others receiving the Presidential Medal of Whatever at the Kennedy Center. If you're big enough for our dumb leaders to know who you are, then you don't need the honor.


    http://i.cbc.ca/1.1669484.1379079984!/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/16x9_1180/hi-kennedy-centre-hon-cp-03669438.jpg

    Replies: @Angular momentum, @The Ringmaster, @Reg Cæsar, @S. Anonyia

    What a frivolous society though.

    • Agree: El Dato, Buffalo Joe
  7. @Buzz Mohawk
    It's like looking at Led Zeppelin, David Letterman, Dustin Hoffman and some others receiving the Presidential Medal of Whatever at the Kennedy Center. If you're big enough for our dumb leaders to know who you are, then you don't need the honor.


    http://i.cbc.ca/1.1669484.1379079984!/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/16x9_1180/hi-kennedy-centre-hon-cp-03669438.jpg

    Replies: @Angular momentum, @The Ringmaster, @Reg Cæsar, @S. Anonyia

    Is those “tranyards” around their necks?

    At a tax-abatement protest in Manhattan, you can see in the background Old Glory sharing a pole with the tranny banner, and no other flags in sight. Not borough, not city, not state.

    • Thanks: JimDandy
    • Replies: @Wilkey
    @Reg Cæsar


    Is those “tranyards” around their necks?
     
    That's the ribbon for recipients of the Kennedy Center Honors. Not sure if it's design is meant as an homage to the LGBTQWEERTY rainbow flag, but I wouldn't be surprised.
    , @HammerJack
    @Reg Cæsar


    Glory sharing a pole with the tranny
     
    https://i.pinimg.com/736x/a9/64/bc/a964bca677a4f713772fac37d88bba18--archer-series-archer-quotes.jpg
  8. The most important murder victim ever!

    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    @Ripple Earthdevil

    Ripple, subject to debate. George Floyd got the send off that Hillary probably imagines she deserves. All these awards and accolades and remembrances diminish true valor and accomplishments. Case in point, Obama and the Nobel Peace Prize, a piece of woke theatre.

  9. eaten by sharks (the crew of the USS Indianapolis)

    Hey, maybe the dead and maimed sailors on the USS Liberty could be honored with a Congressional Gold Medal.

    No?

    • Thanks: Hibernian
    • Replies: @Jack D
    @smetana

    Bringing up an incident involving whites hurting blacks in 1950's - Unzites: "That's ridiculous. It happened long ago. Why are they bring this up now?"

    Bringing up an incident involving Jews hurting whites from the 1960's - Unzites: "Never Forget!"

    Replies: @Polistra, @John Milton’s Ghost, @Mike Tre, @El Dato

  10. Congress and the President seem to get many of their ideas about the history of heroism from movies (e.g., the Hidden Figures ladies).

    I look forward to the day when the Congress and the President award these medals to Captain America, Iron Man, and Spiderman. Hell, why not to all the Avengers.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Mr. Anon

    even Ant-man?

  11. This would be the equivalent of Republicans voting to give the medal to Ashli Babbitt.

    I’m sure Republicans will get right on that once they’re back in control of Congress.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
    @Wilkey

    'This would be the equivalent of Republicans voting to give the medal to Ashli Babbitt.'

    That's a curiously appropriate analogy.

    Of course, Emmett Till's killers were at least put on trial.

    ...but that was 1955 Mississippi. A more scrupulously legal culture than ours.

    , @HammerJack
    @Wilkey


    This would be the equivalent of Republicans voting to give the medal to Ashli Babbitt.
     
    Well yeah, especially if she'd been murdered by a gang of street thugs rather than executed in cold blood by the long arm of the law.
  12. @Reg Cæsar
    @Buzz Mohawk

    Is those "tranyards" around their necks?

    At a tax-abatement protest in Manhattan, you can see in the background Old Glory sharing a pole with the tranny banner, and no other flags in sight. Not borough, not city, not state.

    Replies: @Wilkey, @HammerJack

    Is those “tranyards” around their necks?

    That’s the ribbon for recipients of the Kennedy Center Honors. Not sure if it’s design is meant as an homage to the LGBTQWEERTY rainbow flag, but I wouldn’t be surprised.

  13. But did they play smooth jazz?

  14. Speaking of medals, on today’s date in 1982, Lenny Skutnick plunged into the icy Potomac and swam out to rescue one of the few survivors of the Air Florida crash. The Coast Guard issued its Gold Lifesaving Medal. They don’t give out very many of those, maybe one every few years. Some are posthumous. Reagan honored the nerdy, droopy-mustachioed budget-office employee a few weeks later at the State of the Union. Lenny was the first SOTU honoree.

    Tirado was about to drown. Dozens of first responders stood by on the banks of the river. It was only a short swim, but the water temperature was 33 degrees, and they all stood by. It was impossible to launch a raft because of the ice floes. The victim could not grasp a helicopter rope, because her hands had gone numb. Lenny could not just stand by. A very good man, deserving of our admiration and respect.

    • Thanks: Mike Tre, Voltarde, S. Anonyia
    • Replies: @Inquiring Mind
    @SafeNow

    Yeah, and to think that when iSteve was faced with bystanders standing around slack jawed in Chicago, all he did was toss one of those life rings from the case on the drawbridge railing.

    With respect to Mr. Skutnick's heroism, did any of the rescue personnel tie a rope around him before he jumped in, kind of like the rope attached to iSteve's life ring? That way they could winch the plucky Federal worker back to safety if he passed out from the cold?

    Replies: @SafeNow

    , @S. Anonyia
    @SafeNow

    I guess modern America is far more nerdy than the 1980s, because there is little about his appearance or background that registers as nerdy to me.

    , @Jim Don Bob
    @SafeNow

    I was watching TV that afternoon when they cut to the crash scene and I remember thinking to myself, "How come all these search and rescue guys are standing around with their thumbs in their butts watching people drown?", and then Lenny jumped it. You have less than 5 minutes in water that cold.

    , @Johann Ricke
    @SafeNow


    Speaking of medals, on today’s date in 1982, Lenny Skutnick plunged into the icy Potomac and swam out to rescue one of the few survivors of the Air Florida crash.
     
    Maybe he drew inspiration from fellow MOT Mark Spitz. Anyhow, the lady he rescued had a rough go of it, understandably, given the circumstances:

    Priscilla Tirado, 43, was rescued by Lenny Skutnik. Her young husband, José, and their 2-month-old son were killed -- the infant's was the last body recovered, 11 days after the crash. Other survivors remember hearing her scream for someone to find her baby as they all bobbed in the water. She lives in Florida in the town where her parents lived -- her father, who was her protector and spokesman, died in 1999. On Jan. 13, 1982, she was flying to Florida with her new family so her husband could take a job in the construction industry. In 20 years, she has said only a few sentences to the press about the accident. Five years after the crash she told a reporter: ''It's still hard for me. Sometimes I have my days. I had a good life with José. He was real good for me.'' A decade after the crash, her father told The Washington Post, ''After 10 years, we're beginning to wonder if this will ever work itself out.'' She declined to be interviewed for this story.
     
  15. Breaking news:. The USA has been renamed Emmett Till The End of Time.

    • LOL: Dieter Kief
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Sick of Orcs

    That's good.

    Replies: @Sick of Orcs

  16. Will there be an Emmet Till channel?

    People like golf and there is a golf channel.

    “There’s nothing on the golf channel. Change the channel to the Emmet Till channel. I heard there’s a good biography of Emmet Till on…”

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    @Danindc

    Maybe a bimonthly magazine, like they have for World War II.

  17. Why would you honor a crime victim anyway? There’s nothing heroic about getting killed the way he died.

    • Agree: Ben tillman
    • Replies: @Colin Wright
    @Ed

    'There’s nothing heroic about getting killed the way he died.'

    Well, he did obstinately refuse to apologize or grovel or whatever his killers wanted of him; that's how they wound up beating him to death. So he was tough -- if not particularly wise.

    I certainly wouldn't give him a medal, though. Good riddance, really.

    Replies: @Stephen Paul Foster

    , @bomag
    @Ed

    Yes, an honoree should have some positive effort to which one can point, even if ultimately a crime victim. Till's salient activity was making an unwanted sexual advance, the type of which gets today's man cancelled, but his story arc got translated into an award.

    , @kaganovitch
    @Ed

    Why would you honor a crime victim anyway? There’s nothing heroic about getting killed the way he died.

    Right, I prefer a crime victim who won. Bernie Goetz for CMH.

  18. @Hi There

    But what about Emmett’s dad, war criminal Louis Till, who provided half of Emmett’s DNA?
     
    Louis Till was an innocent black man persecuted by a wicked justice system founded on white supremacy. That would be the left-wing telling of the story. There is no hard evidence proving anything. You can't even prove that these people existed, although there is more persuasive evidence of that.

    The political left is using the Emmett Till story as a tool to manipulate the emotions of the masses in a politically useful way. The reality of what happened a long time ago isn't important in such a context of political utility.

    Replies: @Nicholas Stix, @Hannah Katz, @Buffalo Joe

    “The Story of Emmett Till: Facts vs. Racist Fairy Tales”
    https://nicholasstixuncensored.blogspot.com/2021/07/the-story-of-emmett-till-facts-vs.html

    • Replies: @Hi There
    @Nicholas Stix

    My point went over your head.

    The political left is using history to serve their present day political interests. And so are you and Steve Sailer. And the history itself doesn't matter in a modern political context.

    Relitigating the specifics of what happened to Emmett Till seems unproductive.

    , @Ben tillman
    @Nicholas Stix

    Good stuff, but please note a mistake to be corrected — the falsely accused Duke students played lacrosse, not soccer.

  19. @bomag
    Embarrassing is the word that comes to mind:

    )Black male killed with sexual context; gets award.

    )More Till news; too much is not enough.

    )The Stalinist clapping on racial matters continues; sanctioned by Congress.

    etc.

    Replies: @HammerJack, @HammerJack, @Etruscan Film Star

    How many white people have been killed by black since Emmet Till? An estimate to the nearest thousand or two will suffice.

    • Agree: Gordo
    • Replies: @dixonsyder
    @HammerJack

    300 to 400 a year X the amount of years to be considered. Let's take just the last 10 years. 10 x 325 = 3250 as an average amount give or take 20 bodies. 325 a year was just a number I grabbed so the 20 + or - bodies can be used to adjust.

  20. @bomag
    Embarrassing is the word that comes to mind:

    )Black male killed with sexual context; gets award.

    )More Till news; too much is not enough.

    )The Stalinist clapping on racial matters continues; sanctioned by Congress.

    etc.

    Replies: @HammerJack, @HammerJack, @Etruscan Film Star

    How many white people have been killed by black people since Emmet Till? An estimate to the nearest thousand or two will suffice.

    Bonus question: why is it that none of their lives mattered? We don’t even know their names.

    • Agree: Wake up, Pat Kittle
    • Replies: @bomag
    @HammerJack

    Agree.

    The other side will quibble, saying the tragedy was Till's killers unpunished by a corrupted legal system. But we're getting a dreary number going the other way, from the high profile Nicole Brown/Ron Goldman --Kate Steinle -- Justine Damond; to some chronicled on this site; on down to many remembered by few. The quibblers want us to believe today's killers are feted by an honest system, but it is a tragic butcher's bill being run up by a corrupt narrative.

  21. @Reg Cæsar
    @Buzz Mohawk

    Is those "tranyards" around their necks?

    At a tax-abatement protest in Manhattan, you can see in the background Old Glory sharing a pole with the tranny banner, and no other flags in sight. Not borough, not city, not state.

    Replies: @Wilkey, @HammerJack

    Glory sharing a pole with the tranny

  22. @Wilkey
    This would be the equivalent of Republicans voting to give the medal to Ashli Babbitt.

    I'm sure Republicans will get right on that once they're back in control of Congress.

    Replies: @Colin Wright, @HammerJack

    ‘This would be the equivalent of Republicans voting to give the medal to Ashli Babbitt.’

    That’s a curiously appropriate analogy.

    Of course, Emmett Till’s killers were at least put on trial.

    …but that was 1955 Mississippi. A more scrupulously legal culture than ours.

    • Agree: Gordo, Dieter Kief
    • LOL: Ben tillman
  23. @Sick of Orcs
    Breaking news:. The USA has been renamed Emmett Till The End of Time.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    That’s good.

    • Replies: @Sick of Orcs
    @Steve Sailer

    Thank You, Sir. Keep up the good work.

    Bonus: This was never onscreen but included in one of the Prog Trek books:

    https://memory-beta.fandom.com/wiki/USS_Emmett_Till

    In the meantime I'll be anxiously awaiting the USS Cannon Hinnant.

  24. @Ed
    Why would you honor a crime victim anyway? There’s nothing heroic about getting killed the way he died.

    Replies: @Colin Wright, @bomag, @kaganovitch

    ‘There’s nothing heroic about getting killed the way he died.’

    Well, he did obstinately refuse to apologize or grovel or whatever his killers wanted of him; that’s how they wound up beating him to death. So he was tough — if not particularly wise.

    I certainly wouldn’t give him a medal, though. Good riddance, really.

    • Agree: Calvin Hobbes
    • Replies: @Stephen Paul Foster
    @Colin Wright

    "Well, he did obstinately refuse to apologize or grovel..."

    How do we know this to be true? Just wondering.

  25. “Emmet” is a mildly derogatory term for a tourist in Cornwall. It comes from a dialect word for “ant”.

    • LOL: Gordo
    • Replies: @Abolish_public_education
    @jimmyriddle

    "Emmet” is a mildly derogatory term for a tourist

    Emet(h) is Hebrew for "truth".

  26. I am sure that similarly honoring the dead of the USS LIBERTY is in the works. Any day now.

  27. Soon Emmett Till will run for Congress. It would be racist to insist that dead black men killed by whites should lose their right to participate in democracy.

  28. @Harry Baldwin
    Congress and the President seem to get many of their ideas about the history of heroism from movies

    Speaking of movies, Biden reminds me of an elderly Forrest Gump, recounting the wondrous events in his life--being arrested in Soweto while going to see Nelson Mandela, marching with Martin Luther King in Selma, awarding a medal to a soldier in Afghanistan, going to the Tree of Life synagogue after the shooting there, driving an 18-wheeler, facing down Corn Pop and his gang, his grandpa playing football after working eight hours in the coal mines--all these memories of wondrous things that never happened.

    Replies: @mmack, @Reg Cæsar, @Bernard

    Momma always said a press conference with Joe Biden is like a box of chocolates: You never know what you’re gonna get.

    • LOL: El Dato
  29. You would think being a sexual harasser, probably a rapist, would stop him from getting this medal.

    I mean what if had sexually harassed a tranny rather than a woman, would he still be a hero?

  30. @Colin Wright
    @Ed

    'There’s nothing heroic about getting killed the way he died.'

    Well, he did obstinately refuse to apologize or grovel or whatever his killers wanted of him; that's how they wound up beating him to death. So he was tough -- if not particularly wise.

    I certainly wouldn't give him a medal, though. Good riddance, really.

    Replies: @Stephen Paul Foster

    “Well, he did obstinately refuse to apologize or grovel…”

    How do we know this to be true? Just wondering.

  31. @HammerJack
    @bomag

    How many white people have been killed by black since Emmet Till? An estimate to the nearest thousand or two will suffice.

    Replies: @dixonsyder

    300 to 400 a year X the amount of years to be considered. Let’s take just the last 10 years. 10 x 325 = 3250 as an average amount give or take 20 bodies. 325 a year was just a number I grabbed so the 20 + or – bodies can be used to adjust.

  32. @HammerJack
    @bomag

    How many white people have been killed by black people since Emmet Till? An estimate to the nearest thousand or two will suffice.

    Bonus question: why is it that none of their lives mattered? We don't even know their names.

    Replies: @bomag

    Agree.

    The other side will quibble, saying the tragedy was Till’s killers unpunished by a corrupted legal system. But we’re getting a dreary number going the other way, from the high profile Nicole Brown/Ron Goldman –Kate Steinle — Justine Damond; to some chronicled on this site; on down to many remembered by few. The quibblers want us to believe today’s killers are feted by an honest system, but it is a tragic butcher’s bill being run up by a corrupt narrative.

  33. Senate passes bill to honor Emmett Till and his mother
    The teenager’s mother insisted on an open casket to demonstrate the brutality of his killing, which galvanized the civil rights movement

    If this is read as a metaphor for the state of mind, – the liberal West is in by and large, then the question arises: Just how come? – Why are such symbolic acts urgent – and so trendy?

    (My simple answer: Because they are badly needed to cover some real issues up. – And one of them is the (harsh – I admit that) fact, that yes indeed, black people do perform not that good – on average).

    • Replies: @bomag
    @Dieter Kief


    ...insisted on an open casket to demonstrate the brutality
     
    Narrative building by media manipulation. I don't see many victims of Black crime on display with the purpose of punishing a people.

    [harsh fact that black people do not perform that good on average]
     
    We're in the middle of a grand contract where we give Blacks full access and a hand up; in return they will give equal performance. It is not working out so well. We're waiting for the contract to run out so we can craft a new arrangement.

    Replies: @Dieter Kief

  34. @Hi There

    But what about Emmett’s dad, war criminal Louis Till, who provided half of Emmett’s DNA?
     
    Louis Till was an innocent black man persecuted by a wicked justice system founded on white supremacy. That would be the left-wing telling of the story. There is no hard evidence proving anything. You can't even prove that these people existed, although there is more persuasive evidence of that.

    The political left is using the Emmett Till story as a tool to manipulate the emotions of the masses in a politically useful way. The reality of what happened a long time ago isn't important in such a context of political utility.

    Replies: @Nicholas Stix, @Hannah Katz, @Buffalo Joe

    Seems he was an aggressive teen who sexually harassed a married woman and her husband put an end to it, and to Till. Not an action we can condone, but neither should we treat sexual predators as heroes.

    • Replies: @Hi There
    @Hannah Katz

    My point went over your head.

    We shouldn't be litigating the events of Emmett Till because Democratic politicians say that we should.

  35. @Ed
    Why would you honor a crime victim anyway? There’s nothing heroic about getting killed the way he died.

    Replies: @Colin Wright, @bomag, @kaganovitch

    Yes, an honoree should have some positive effort to which one can point, even if ultimately a crime victim. Till’s salient activity was making an unwanted sexual advance, the type of which gets today’s man cancelled, but his story arc got translated into an award.

  36. Have you ever heard of Mary Turner? She was a 21 year old pregnant woman who was lynched in May 1918 in Georgia. Lynched doesn’t really sum up what actually happened: she was hung from a tree upside down and had her belly slit open with a knife. Her *eight month old* (parents will understand what this means, and how absolutely horrific this is) fetus fell out. This is the kind of thing we associate with soldiers from our worst foreign enemies, or long gone Mongol hordes. But it happened. One of the mob crushed the baby’s head with his heel. This took place before she actually died. I think we can all agree it doesn’t get more sickening than forcing an expecting mother to watch her child spill out of her womb and be murdered before she herself is. There is something primordial, something savage about that particular crime, something that’s only driven by a deep desire to exterminate.

    What was her “crime”? Threatening to have members of the mob that had just lynched her husband the previous day, for a murder which he was innocent of, arrested. Icing on the cake is unlike Till, nobody ever was charged for her death, and until the 2000s, she didn’t even get a proper gravestone. Not a memorial: just a gravestone. You don’t have to be sympathetic to black people to find this story disgusting, horrific, shameful. Just having a basic conscience should do the trick.

    Yet Turner is not remembered, unlike Till. Why is that? Simple: Turner’s murder is less politically useful, less politically relevant for our gerotoncracy. Till’s murder took place in the 1950s, when social attitudes had vastly shifted, TV was a thing, and disgust over what happened catalyzed the CR movement. And since we have a gerontocracy that wants to wax nostagic about 1968 while the nation rots, this is what we get. Not to suggest that Till remotely deserved what he got, of course, or that his killers deserve any sympathy-but he was a teenage boy who was being a bit obnoxious, whereas Turner was someone trying to actually get legal justice for her murdered husband in an era where prevailing attitudes toward black people were far more barbaric than in the 1950s. I think if you really want to look for a “hero” who paid the price, Turner fits the bill more. Yet she’s ignored. Because she’s not tied into the personal memories of our elite.

    This is About Them and their emotional fixations. Make no mistake.

    • Replies: @Mike Tre
    @nebulafox

    "This is About Them and their emotional fixations. Make no mistake. "

    It's exactly why a true epidemic of negro violence within inner cities goes ignored for decades, even by so called black leaders. No political benefit.

    , @Buffalo Joe
    @nebulafox

    neb, first thank you. Always good to learn something each day. Repugnant crime to say the least. Now, for those with a strong stomach please insert the name Channon Christian into a search engine. I am not playing tit for tat or what-about-ism. See how some crimes fade away. Stay safe.

    Replies: @nebulafox

    , @nebulafox
    @nebulafox

    Update: Turner was considerably older, in her early 30s. My mistake. This makes more sense, it seems as though she was already the mother of two children by this point. But the contrast still stands. Consider which of these two incidents is more "heroic":

    Till was hitting on a married woman. How "creepy", to use modern parlance, he was being depends on who you believe: it's not as if Bryant and Co. don't have serious credibility issues, but let's suppose he was over-the-linen obnoxious, for the sake of discussion. This obviously isn't a crime that deserves arrest-let alone extralegal torture and death. But some harsh words, a complaint to the relatives he was staying with, and a smack across his ass that night wouldn't have been unjustified. And while no amount of non-prudence could have excused what happened to Till, he was a teenager from Chicago who'd been warned by others to keep his head down in Mississippi precisely because things were different down there.

    Was Till a victim? Certainly. A hero? Eh... not really.

    Turner, by contrast, was a sharecropper living in an era where, as I mentioned, prevailing racial attitudes were more barbaric. This was her life in a way it wasn't for Till, she didn't really have an "escape option": she might well have been illiterate. Her husband was murdered for a crime he didn't commit by a mob that was aware he didn't commit it. Her life probably looked pretty damn grim at that point: multiple kids, no father, rural Georgia in 1918. She could have been excused for burying her grief and keeping her head down to avoid further trouble. She knew what was "expected" of her, probably. She didn't. In her emotional grief, she refused to lie or dishonor the memory of her dead husband-choosing her duty to family over societal expectations a la Sophocles' Antigone. She publicly denied that he had anything to do with the murder, denounced his lynching, and threatened to pursue charges. That was an objectively brave act when you consider her circumstances and what was against her.

    And they didn't just kill her for this. They did what has to rank among the most objectively evil things you can do to another human being, something truly unspeakably horrific that should send everybody in that mob hooting and smiling straight to the lowest circles of hell. In my opinion, she deserves the accolades for the evils of Jim Crow, not just as a victim, but as someone who really did choose death before dishonor. But for reasons pertaining to the politics of the last 70 years... and particularly to the politics of today, she's not the one remembered. The best she gets is finally having a proper grave.

    I don't know why this irritates me so much, but it does.

    Replies: @Greta Handel

    , @usNthem
    @nebulafox

    Out of curiosity, I took a look at a couple of Georgia newspapers from the time to see how it was reported. One simply mentioned that among others, a negro female had been hung. The other included much more detail, in that a Mary Turner had complained about her husband being wrongfully killed the day before. Apparently, the citizenry didn’t take too kindly to those comments and served her the same. The newspaper condemned the affair. Noteworthy, there was no mention of the additional barbaric act that we see today in Wikipedia. I’m not saying it didn’t happen, but even 104 years ago, I find it hard to believe something like that wouldn’t have been widely reported. Maybe it was elsewhere. But it’s hardly a stretch to think that in the hyper-racialized environment in which we live today, such a lynching might perhaps be grotesquely sensationalized.
    Chroniclingamerica.org

    , @Paperback Writer
    @nebulafox

    What was the purpose of rehearsing this particularly gruesome piece of atrocity porn? What if Ibram Kendi and his crew tomorrow turn Mary Turner into their cause du jour? Will that be OK?

    Replies: @James N. Kennett

    , @Colin Wright
    @nebulafox

    'Have you ever heard of Mary Turner? She was a 21 year old pregnant woman who was lynched in May 1918 in Georgia. Lynched doesn’t really sum up what actually happened: she was hung from a tree upside down and had her belly slit open with a knife. Her *eight month old* (parents will understand what this means, and how absolutely horrific this is) fetus fell out. This is the kind of thing we associate with soldiers from our worst foreign enemies, or long gone Mongol hordes. But it happened...'

    And of course, exactly as described.

    I'm skeptical.

  37. @Angular momentum
    @Buzz Mohawk

    Getting an award with Led Zeppelin would be pretty awesome though. Just saying

    Replies: @Brutusale

    Obama and Yo Yo Ma are fans!

    https://duckduckgo.com/?q=heart+stairway+to+heaven+live+kennedy+center&atb=v257-1&iax=videos&ia=videos&iai=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D2cZ_EFAmj08

    The reaction of the band members was interesting. Session men Page and Jones were all about listening to the music, while Plant was on the verge of tears from the time Jason Bonham, the son of his old mate, walked out onto the stage.

    The story here isn’t surprising. Plaques for Blaques.

  38. @Dieter Kief

    Senate passes bill to honor Emmett Till and his mother
    The teenager's mother insisted on an open casket to demonstrate the brutality of his killing, which galvanized the civil rights movement
     
    If this is read as a metaphor for the state of mind, - the liberal West is in by and large, then the question arises: Just how come? - Why are such symbolic acts urgent - and so trendy?

    (My simple answer: Because they are badly needed to cover some real issues up. - And one of them is the (harsh - I admit that) fact, that yes indeed, black people do perform not that good - on average).

    Replies: @bomag

    …insisted on an open casket to demonstrate the brutality

    Narrative building by media manipulation. I don’t see many victims of Black crime on display with the purpose of punishing a people.

    [harsh fact that black people do not perform that good on average]

    We’re in the middle of a grand contract where we give Blacks full access and a hand up; in return they will give equal performance. It is not working out so well. We’re waiting for the contract to run out so we can craft a new arrangement.

    • Replies: @Dieter Kief
    @bomag


    We’re in the middle of a grand contract where we give Blacks full access and a hand up; in return they will give equal performance. It is not working out so well. We’re waiting for the contract to run out so we can craft a new arrangement.
     
    Tht sounds - cool? A tad bitter? Harsh. Grim?

    Ok.

    But what I sense is going on here is not cool, but rather simmering hot and - confused. I sense an awful lot of confusion here and - tension (I think of George Floyd - I felt right away (and wrote about it a lot in June 2020) that this was going to get big - if not huge. And it did. Now I think of Derek Chauvin.
    But at the same time I think of Detroit. Or Ferguson...
    Maybeva beginning of sorts would be to acknowledge the problem: - That there is a visible and fairly big group of - on average - underperformers.

    Replies: @bomag

  39. Honestly, this is loooooong overdue.

  40. One thing in common across both lists is that Congress and the White House both love to honor golfers: Congress has given 6% of its Gold Medals in this century to golfers

    What about NFL running backs?

    Just wondering when O.J. Simpson is going to get his medal…

  41. It is nearly always the case that famous people who are converted into mythical figures have feet of clay.

    Even Jesus probably had his off days if truth be known.

    Was Sir Winston Churchill an inspiring national leader or an obnoxious old drunk?

    There is always political spin. Even in the venerable book The Twelve Caesars by Suetonius it is not really clear whether the character assassinations of Nero, Caligula, and others are based on fact or slander, and of course Suetonius was writing his tabloid-style best seller more than 100 years after the fact, without the benefit of newsreels, videotapes, or even printed media.

    The issue with Emmett Till is not what he was, but what he now represents in people’s minds. Someone executed ex-judicially for a relatively minor offense, and one of the last people to be lynched, if not the last.

    • Replies: @nebulafox
    @Jonathan Mason

    There is a real difference between ancient and modern historians: the former were openly biased and were expected to be by contemporaries. Ancient history was never an exercise in objective fact telling, something it took us a surprisingly long time to figure out in modern times.

    (Gibbon mostly uncritically bought into the "emperors that the aristocratic/theological historians-depending on the era-didn't like were monsters" trope, for example, and that dominated Western historiography for a while.)

    They could also "imagine" what their subjects said in a way no modern historian can get away with, craft events to fit historical allusions, and even retrofit previous events to fit a constructive narrative without consciously intending to falsify what they saw as the truth.

    Replies: @Jack D, @rebel yell

    , @Reg Cæsar
    @Jonathan Mason


    Someone executed ex-judicially for a relatively minor offense executed ex-judicially for a relatively minor offense
     
    Easy for you to say. It wasn't your wife.

    Replies: @Jonathan Mason, @Jack D

    , @Coemgen
    @Jonathan Mason


    The issue with Emmett Till is not what he was, but what he now represents in people’s minds.
     
    The issue with Emmett Till is, he is now used to inflame anti-White racial animosities.
  42. @Wilkey
    This would be the equivalent of Republicans voting to give the medal to Ashli Babbitt.

    I'm sure Republicans will get right on that once they're back in control of Congress.

    Replies: @Colin Wright, @HammerJack

    This would be the equivalent of Republicans voting to give the medal to Ashli Babbitt.

    Well yeah, especially if she’d been murdered by a gang of street thugs rather than executed in cold blood by the long arm of the law.

  43. @nebulafox
    Have you ever heard of Mary Turner? She was a 21 year old pregnant woman who was lynched in May 1918 in Georgia. Lynched doesn't really sum up what actually happened: she was hung from a tree upside down and had her belly slit open with a knife. Her *eight month old* (parents will understand what this means, and how absolutely horrific this is) fetus fell out. This is the kind of thing we associate with soldiers from our worst foreign enemies, or long gone Mongol hordes. But it happened. One of the mob crushed the baby's head with his heel. This took place before she actually died. I think we can all agree it doesn't get more sickening than forcing an expecting mother to watch her child spill out of her womb and be murdered before she herself is. There is something primordial, something savage about that particular crime, something that's only driven by a deep desire to exterminate.

    What was her "crime"? Threatening to have members of the mob that had just lynched her husband the previous day, for a murder which he was innocent of, arrested. Icing on the cake is unlike Till, nobody ever was charged for her death, and until the 2000s, she didn't even get a proper gravestone. Not a memorial: just a gravestone. You don't have to be sympathetic to black people to find this story disgusting, horrific, shameful. Just having a basic conscience should do the trick.

    Yet Turner is not remembered, unlike Till. Why is that? Simple: Turner's murder is less politically useful, less politically relevant for our gerotoncracy. Till's murder took place in the 1950s, when social attitudes had vastly shifted, TV was a thing, and disgust over what happened catalyzed the CR movement. And since we have a gerontocracy that wants to wax nostagic about 1968 while the nation rots, this is what we get. Not to suggest that Till remotely deserved what he got, of course, or that his killers deserve any sympathy-but he was a teenage boy who was being a bit obnoxious, whereas Turner was someone trying to actually get legal justice for her murdered husband in an era where prevailing attitudes toward black people were far more barbaric than in the 1950s. I think if you really want to look for a "hero" who paid the price, Turner fits the bill more. Yet she's ignored. Because she's not tied into the personal memories of our elite.

    This is About Them and their emotional fixations. Make no mistake.

    Replies: @Mike Tre, @Buffalo Joe, @nebulafox, @usNthem, @Paperback Writer, @Colin Wright

    “This is About Them and their emotional fixations. Make no mistake. ”

    It’s exactly why a true epidemic of negro violence within inner cities goes ignored for decades, even by so called black leaders. No political benefit.

  44. As Steve and other like to say, racism is such a problem in America that we have to reach back to a time when 85% of the current population wasn’t even born to find a compelling example.

    Blacks are not the only racial or ethnic group for whom real or perceived oppression is a core part of their identity, but probably the group whose self-conception and preferred portrayal in popular culture is so centered around this as opposed to subsequent achievements or success. Thus all history lessons are centered around this and all ‘serious’ movies and such are almost exclusively about how much it sucks to be black in America.

    • Replies: @Lurker
    @Arclight


    Thus all history lessons are centered around this and all ‘serious’ movies and such are almost exclusively about how much it sucks to be black in America.
     
    Yet for some mysterious reason black people still migrate to the USA.
  45. @Hi There

    But what about Emmett’s dad, war criminal Louis Till, who provided half of Emmett’s DNA?
     
    Louis Till was an innocent black man persecuted by a wicked justice system founded on white supremacy. That would be the left-wing telling of the story. There is no hard evidence proving anything. You can't even prove that these people existed, although there is more persuasive evidence of that.

    The political left is using the Emmett Till story as a tool to manipulate the emotions of the masses in a politically useful way. The reality of what happened a long time ago isn't important in such a context of political utility.

    Replies: @Nicholas Stix, @Hannah Katz, @Buffalo Joe

    Hi, American public education has probably devoted more time to the Holocaust than the Civil War. The dems can never find enough victim’s to troll for votes.

    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
    @Buffalo Joe


    American public education has probably devoted more time to the Holocaust than the Civil War.
     
    Indeed now that you mention it, even my schools half a century ago devoted more time to the Holocaust than the Civil War. Interesting...

    Replies: @kaganovitch, @Buffalo Joe

  46. @Ripple Earthdevil
    The most important murder victim ever!

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe

    Ripple, subject to debate. George Floyd got the send off that Hillary probably imagines she deserves. All these awards and accolades and remembrances diminish true valor and accomplishments. Case in point, Obama and the Nobel Peace Prize, a piece of woke theatre.

  47. @SafeNow
    https://hips.hearstapps.com/esq.h-cdn.co/assets/cm/15/07/54da5fbddff5f_-_01-larry-skutnik-reagan-012610-lg.jpg

    Speaking of medals, on today’s date in 1982, Lenny Skutnick plunged into the icy Potomac and swam out to rescue one of the few survivors of the Air Florida crash. The Coast Guard issued its Gold Lifesaving Medal. They don’t give out very many of those, maybe one every few years. Some are posthumous. Reagan honored the nerdy, droopy-mustachioed budget-office employee a few weeks later at the State of the Union. Lenny was the first SOTU honoree.

    Tirado was about to drown. Dozens of first responders stood by on the banks of the river. It was only a short swim, but the water temperature was 33 degrees, and they all stood by. It was impossible to launch a raft because of the ice floes. The victim could not grasp a helicopter rope, because her hands had gone numb. Lenny could not just stand by. A very good man, deserving of our admiration and respect.

    Replies: @Inquiring Mind, @S. Anonyia, @Jim Don Bob, @Johann Ricke

    Yeah, and to think that when iSteve was faced with bystanders standing around slack jawed in Chicago, all he did was toss one of those life rings from the case on the drawbridge railing.

    With respect to Mr. Skutnick’s heroism, did any of the rescue personnel tie a rope around him before he jumped in, kind of like the rope attached to iSteve’s life ring? That way they could winch the plucky Federal worker back to safety if he passed out from the cold?

    • Replies: @SafeNow
    @Inquiring Mind

    No, no rope was tied around Lenny. Just as well..possible entanglement with the ice, plus not necessary… it would take 10 minutes for hypothermia to disable him. Also, I would guess that the timid “responders” would want nothing to do with being Lenny’s assistant. Lenny just acted. As they say in the USCG, Take action now, get permission later. But good thought about the rope. On a USCG cutter, the swimmer usually has a line attached to him. A “certified line tender” works the line and the winch.

  48. One thing in common across both lists is that Congress and the White House both love to honor golfers: Congress has given 6% of its Gold Medals in this century to golfers

    Steve, I love how you find these odd little facts that really get to the core of how things work. I wish there were more noticers out there like you.

  49. @nebulafox
    Have you ever heard of Mary Turner? She was a 21 year old pregnant woman who was lynched in May 1918 in Georgia. Lynched doesn't really sum up what actually happened: she was hung from a tree upside down and had her belly slit open with a knife. Her *eight month old* (parents will understand what this means, and how absolutely horrific this is) fetus fell out. This is the kind of thing we associate with soldiers from our worst foreign enemies, or long gone Mongol hordes. But it happened. One of the mob crushed the baby's head with his heel. This took place before she actually died. I think we can all agree it doesn't get more sickening than forcing an expecting mother to watch her child spill out of her womb and be murdered before she herself is. There is something primordial, something savage about that particular crime, something that's only driven by a deep desire to exterminate.

    What was her "crime"? Threatening to have members of the mob that had just lynched her husband the previous day, for a murder which he was innocent of, arrested. Icing on the cake is unlike Till, nobody ever was charged for her death, and until the 2000s, she didn't even get a proper gravestone. Not a memorial: just a gravestone. You don't have to be sympathetic to black people to find this story disgusting, horrific, shameful. Just having a basic conscience should do the trick.

    Yet Turner is not remembered, unlike Till. Why is that? Simple: Turner's murder is less politically useful, less politically relevant for our gerotoncracy. Till's murder took place in the 1950s, when social attitudes had vastly shifted, TV was a thing, and disgust over what happened catalyzed the CR movement. And since we have a gerontocracy that wants to wax nostagic about 1968 while the nation rots, this is what we get. Not to suggest that Till remotely deserved what he got, of course, or that his killers deserve any sympathy-but he was a teenage boy who was being a bit obnoxious, whereas Turner was someone trying to actually get legal justice for her murdered husband in an era where prevailing attitudes toward black people were far more barbaric than in the 1950s. I think if you really want to look for a "hero" who paid the price, Turner fits the bill more. Yet she's ignored. Because she's not tied into the personal memories of our elite.

    This is About Them and their emotional fixations. Make no mistake.

    Replies: @Mike Tre, @Buffalo Joe, @nebulafox, @usNthem, @Paperback Writer, @Colin Wright

    neb, first thank you. Always good to learn something each day. Repugnant crime to say the least. Now, for those with a strong stomach please insert the name Channon Christian into a search engine. I am not playing tit for tat or what-about-ism. See how some crimes fade away. Stay safe.

    • Replies: @nebulafox
    @Buffalo Joe

    Absolutely, and I don't think you are! Justice shouldn't operate on a spreadsheet: murder is murder, completely unacceptable, and that's all there is to it as far as I'm concerned.

    The media actively ignoring or distorting crimes, with the *ruined lives* involved, that don't "fit the narrative" truly disgusts me in a way little else does. These are real people. Real people whose lives ended, or were shattered. They don't care about the humans involved, they care about their abstract petty world-view. Or things like DAs who openly state that the people they get off the hook are probably going to end up killing others someday.

    Replies: @rebel yell

  50. @smetana

    eaten by sharks (the crew of the USS Indianapolis)
     
    Hey, maybe the dead and maimed sailors on the USS Liberty could be honored with a Congressional Gold Medal.

    No?

    Replies: @Jack D

    Bringing up an incident involving whites hurting blacks in 1950’s – Unzites: “That’s ridiculous. It happened long ago. Why are they bring this up now?”

    Bringing up an incident involving Jews hurting whites from the 1960’s – Unzites: “Never Forget!”

    • LOL: Johann Ricke
    • Replies: @Polistra
    @Jack D

    Good thing for your "argument" that no one ever, ever mentions the 'holocaust'. You are an endless, broken record.

    Replies: @Jack D, @Johann Ricke

    , @John Milton’s Ghost
    @Jack D

    While there is indeed a lot of hateful trash around here who see the only good Jew is a dead Jew, there’s a difference in your comparison: blacks aren’t lynched any more. Gentiles are still marginalized, and moreso.

    Take out Jews from the enrollments of the Ivy League, and subtract LGBT-LMNOP degenerates and all the various POCs, and you have a tiny minority of Acceptable Whites who spout proper platitudes about the Deplorables.

    Replies: @Jack D

    , @Mike Tre
    @Jack D

    Laughable statement from a guy belonging to the group who has made sure no one ever forgets muh holocaust.

    , @El Dato
    @Jack D

    Yeah but they always bring up the same guy!

  51. @Steve Sailer
    @Sick of Orcs

    That's good.

    Replies: @Sick of Orcs

    Thank You, Sir. Keep up the good work.

    Bonus: This was never onscreen but included in one of the Prog Trek books:

    https://memory-beta.fandom.com/wiki/USS_Emmett_Till

    In the meantime I’ll be anxiously awaiting the USS Cannon Hinnant.

  52. @Jack D
    @smetana

    Bringing up an incident involving whites hurting blacks in 1950's - Unzites: "That's ridiculous. It happened long ago. Why are they bring this up now?"

    Bringing up an incident involving Jews hurting whites from the 1960's - Unzites: "Never Forget!"

    Replies: @Polistra, @John Milton’s Ghost, @Mike Tre, @El Dato

    Good thing for your “argument” that no one ever, ever mentions the ‘holocaust’. You are an endless, broken record.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Polistra

    If the Holocaust involved the death of less than 35 people then you would have a good case.

    , @Johann Ricke
    @Polistra


    Good thing for your “argument” that no one ever, ever mentions the ‘holocaust’. You are an endless, broken record.
     
    If half of the white gentile population had been butchered by Jews, you'd have a good case for never ceasing to bring the atrocity up at every opportunity. The Liberty incident involved friendly fire in the midst of a war in which defeat for Israel would have meant the butchery of its Jewish population. In the modern era, Muslims haven't been shy about slaughtering Jews:

    Arab youths began the riots by hurling rocks at the yeshiva students as they walked by. That afternoon, student Shmuel Rosenholtz went to the yeshiva alone. Arab rioters broke into the building and killed him. Rosenholtz’s was but the first of dozens of murders.

    On Friday night, Rabbi Ya’acov Slonim’s son invited any Jews fearful of the worsening situation to stay in their family house. The rabbi was highly regarded in the community, and he kept a gun. Many of the Jews in the community took this offer for shelter. Unfortunately, many of these people were eventually murdered there.

    As early as 8:00 a.m. on Saturday morning - the Jewish Sabbath - Arabs began to gather en masse around the Jewish community. They came in mobs, armed with clubs, knives and axes. While the women and children threw stones, the men ransacked Jewish houses and destroyed Jewish property. With only a single police officer in all of Hebron, the Arabs were able to enter Jewish courtyards with literally no opposition.

    Rabbi Slonim, who had tried to shelter the Jews, was approached by the rioters and offered a deal. If all the Ashkenazi yeshiva students were given over to the Arabs, the rioters would spare the lives of the Sephardi community.

    Rabbi Slonim refused to turn over the students. The Arabs killed him on the spot.

    By the end of the massacre, 12 Sephardi Jews and 55 Ashkenazi Jews were murdered.
     
    Then, more generally, there was the way Turkish, Kurdish and other Muslims within the Ottoman Empire slaughtered "infidel" interlopers, with over a million dead non-Muslims at the end:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_genocide
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayfo
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_genocide
  53. America has Emmet Till, Britain has Stephen Lawrence (rare White on Black stabbing victim).

    America has Rosa Parks, Canada has Viola Desmond (insisted in sitting in the White section of a movie theatre because she couldn’t see very well, honored on Canada’s ten dollar bill).

  54. @Buffalo Joe
    @Hi There

    Hi, American public education has probably devoted more time to the Holocaust than the Civil War. The dems can never find enough victim's to troll for votes.

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk

    American public education has probably devoted more time to the Holocaust than the Civil War.

    Indeed now that you mention it, even my schools half a century ago devoted more time to the Holocaust than the Civil War. Interesting…

    • Replies: @kaganovitch
    @Buzz Mohawk

    Indeed now that you mention it, even my schools half a century ago devoted more time to the Holocaust than the Civil War. Interesting…

    In 1970?That's pre Holocaust 'industry', pretty much. Hard to believe, but I'll take your word for it.

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk

    , @Buffalo Joe
    @Buzz Mohawk

    Buzz, I am sure your school was not an outlier. So now it will be racial injustice until the next low fruit ripens.

  55. So what you’re saying, Steve, is that if you were President, the entire PGA tour would get a medal?

    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
    @John Milton’s Ghost

    The White House lawn would become a golf course.


    https://privateclubmarketing.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/05.jpg

  56. @Jack D
    @smetana

    Bringing up an incident involving whites hurting blacks in 1950's - Unzites: "That's ridiculous. It happened long ago. Why are they bring this up now?"

    Bringing up an incident involving Jews hurting whites from the 1960's - Unzites: "Never Forget!"

    Replies: @Polistra, @John Milton’s Ghost, @Mike Tre, @El Dato

    While there is indeed a lot of hateful trash around here who see the only good Jew is a dead Jew, there’s a difference in your comparison: blacks aren’t lynched any more. Gentiles are still marginalized, and moreso.

    Take out Jews from the enrollments of the Ivy League, and subtract LGBT-LMNOP degenerates and all the various POCs, and you have a tiny minority of Acceptable Whites who spout proper platitudes about the Deplorables.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @John Milton’s Ghost


    Gentiles are still marginalized,
     
    Putting aside whether this is true (are Biden and Pelosi "marginalized"?) and putting aside whether there are really only a handful of non-Jewish goodwhites (I think it's a lot more than a handful, especially among young females), what on earth does this have to do with the USS Liberty?

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk

  57. @Ed
    Why would you honor a crime victim anyway? There’s nothing heroic about getting killed the way he died.

    Replies: @Colin Wright, @bomag, @kaganovitch

    Why would you honor a crime victim anyway? There’s nothing heroic about getting killed the way he died.

    Right, I prefer a crime victim who won. Bernie Goetz for CMH.

  58. @nebulafox
    Have you ever heard of Mary Turner? She was a 21 year old pregnant woman who was lynched in May 1918 in Georgia. Lynched doesn't really sum up what actually happened: she was hung from a tree upside down and had her belly slit open with a knife. Her *eight month old* (parents will understand what this means, and how absolutely horrific this is) fetus fell out. This is the kind of thing we associate with soldiers from our worst foreign enemies, or long gone Mongol hordes. But it happened. One of the mob crushed the baby's head with his heel. This took place before she actually died. I think we can all agree it doesn't get more sickening than forcing an expecting mother to watch her child spill out of her womb and be murdered before she herself is. There is something primordial, something savage about that particular crime, something that's only driven by a deep desire to exterminate.

    What was her "crime"? Threatening to have members of the mob that had just lynched her husband the previous day, for a murder which he was innocent of, arrested. Icing on the cake is unlike Till, nobody ever was charged for her death, and until the 2000s, she didn't even get a proper gravestone. Not a memorial: just a gravestone. You don't have to be sympathetic to black people to find this story disgusting, horrific, shameful. Just having a basic conscience should do the trick.

    Yet Turner is not remembered, unlike Till. Why is that? Simple: Turner's murder is less politically useful, less politically relevant for our gerotoncracy. Till's murder took place in the 1950s, when social attitudes had vastly shifted, TV was a thing, and disgust over what happened catalyzed the CR movement. And since we have a gerontocracy that wants to wax nostagic about 1968 while the nation rots, this is what we get. Not to suggest that Till remotely deserved what he got, of course, or that his killers deserve any sympathy-but he was a teenage boy who was being a bit obnoxious, whereas Turner was someone trying to actually get legal justice for her murdered husband in an era where prevailing attitudes toward black people were far more barbaric than in the 1950s. I think if you really want to look for a "hero" who paid the price, Turner fits the bill more. Yet she's ignored. Because she's not tied into the personal memories of our elite.

    This is About Them and their emotional fixations. Make no mistake.

    Replies: @Mike Tre, @Buffalo Joe, @nebulafox, @usNthem, @Paperback Writer, @Colin Wright

    Update: Turner was considerably older, in her early 30s. My mistake. This makes more sense, it seems as though she was already the mother of two children by this point. But the contrast still stands. Consider which of these two incidents is more “heroic”:

    Till was hitting on a married woman. How “creepy”, to use modern parlance, he was being depends on who you believe: it’s not as if Bryant and Co. don’t have serious credibility issues, but let’s suppose he was over-the-linen obnoxious, for the sake of discussion. This obviously isn’t a crime that deserves arrest-let alone extralegal torture and death. But some harsh words, a complaint to the relatives he was staying with, and a smack across his ass that night wouldn’t have been unjustified. And while no amount of non-prudence could have excused what happened to Till, he was a teenager from Chicago who’d been warned by others to keep his head down in Mississippi precisely because things were different down there.

    Was Till a victim? Certainly. A hero? Eh… not really.

    Turner, by contrast, was a sharecropper living in an era where, as I mentioned, prevailing racial attitudes were more barbaric. This was her life in a way it wasn’t for Till, she didn’t really have an “escape option”: she might well have been illiterate. Her husband was murdered for a crime he didn’t commit by a mob that was aware he didn’t commit it. Her life probably looked pretty damn grim at that point: multiple kids, no father, rural Georgia in 1918. She could have been excused for burying her grief and keeping her head down to avoid further trouble. She knew what was “expected” of her, probably. She didn’t. In her emotional grief, she refused to lie or dishonor the memory of her dead husband-choosing her duty to family over societal expectations a la Sophocles’ Antigone. She publicly denied that he had anything to do with the murder, denounced his lynching, and threatened to pursue charges. That was an objectively brave act when you consider her circumstances and what was against her.

    And they didn’t just kill her for this. They did what has to rank among the most objectively evil things you can do to another human being, something truly unspeakably horrific that should send everybody in that mob hooting and smiling straight to the lowest circles of hell. In my opinion, she deserves the accolades for the evils of Jim Crow, not just as a victim, but as someone who really did choose death before dishonor. But for reasons pertaining to the politics of the last 70 years… and particularly to the politics of today, she’s not the one remembered. The best she gets is finally having a proper grave.

    I don’t know why this irritates me so much, but it does.

    • Thanks: ic1000
    • Replies: @Greta Handel
    @nebulafox

    Your pair of comments here are superb. Thank you.

  59. @John Milton’s Ghost
    So what you’re saying, Steve, is that if you were President, the entire PGA tour would get a medal?

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk

    The White House lawn would become a golf course.

  60. @Nicholas Stix
    @Hi There

    "The Story of Emmett Till: Facts vs. Racist Fairy Tales"
    https://nicholasstixuncensored.blogspot.com/2021/07/the-story-of-emmett-till-facts-vs.html

    Replies: @Hi There, @Ben tillman

    My point went over your head.

    The political left is using history to serve their present day political interests. And so are you and Steve Sailer. And the history itself doesn’t matter in a modern political context.

    Relitigating the specifics of what happened to Emmett Till seems unproductive.

  61. @Buzz Mohawk
    @Buffalo Joe


    American public education has probably devoted more time to the Holocaust than the Civil War.
     
    Indeed now that you mention it, even my schools half a century ago devoted more time to the Holocaust than the Civil War. Interesting...

    Replies: @kaganovitch, @Buffalo Joe

    Indeed now that you mention it, even my schools half a century ago devoted more time to the Holocaust than the Civil War. Interesting…

    In 1970?That’s pre Holocaust ‘industry’, pretty much. Hard to believe, but I’ll take your word for it.

    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
    @kaganovitch

    It's true. In 1974 I played Otto Frank in a mandatory play recreating Anne Frank's Diary. That was for a junior high school "language arts" class. We read about and discussed the Holocaust. I have no memory whatsoever of any class covering the Civil War, at all, ever, in my school years.

    Then again, I dropped out as a junior, so maybe I missed something, but still, you would think by then it would have been covered. But, by God, I know all about Anne Frank and the Holocaust.

    Oh, and then on to college, finally, eventually for me. One class in my first semester had The Banality of Evil, by Hannah Arendt on the reading list. We covered it. I wrote about it on an exam. I got an "A."

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe, @huisache, @kaganovitch

  62. @Buffalo Joe
    @nebulafox

    neb, first thank you. Always good to learn something each day. Repugnant crime to say the least. Now, for those with a strong stomach please insert the name Channon Christian into a search engine. I am not playing tit for tat or what-about-ism. See how some crimes fade away. Stay safe.

    Replies: @nebulafox

    Absolutely, and I don’t think you are! Justice shouldn’t operate on a spreadsheet: murder is murder, completely unacceptable, and that’s all there is to it as far as I’m concerned.

    The media actively ignoring or distorting crimes, with the *ruined lives* involved, that don’t “fit the narrative” truly disgusts me in a way little else does. These are real people. Real people whose lives ended, or were shattered. They don’t care about the humans involved, they care about their abstract petty world-view. Or things like DAs who openly state that the people they get off the hook are probably going to end up killing others someday.

    • Thanks: Buffalo Joe
    • Replies: @rebel yell
    @nebulafox

    Good comment Nebulafox. Being "selective" about which victims you concern yourself with, based on political ideology, is a clear sign that people don't really care about justice or human life at all. They only care about their ideology.
    To me this is a first step to breaking away from being a stereotypical liberal or conservative. If your real interest is in safeguarding human life and promoting what is best in human life, and in honest thinking, then you become critical of many of the accepted opinions on left and right. Most people don't care enough about human life or about honest thinking to open that can of worms.
    Of course, on a basic level we are all "selective" about who we care for - family first, then our own people over out-group people, and this is all well and good. But people who deny or ignore murders that are relevant to a debate, just to score debate points, have no character.

    Replies: @Paperback Writer

  63. It’s rather unedifying to see people on these boards attempt to make the case for kidnapping a 14 year old youth and beating him to death or make the case for holding said youth accountable for something done by the father he never met.

    That having been said, his mother was an ordinary person, as was he. His name was known because he was a crime victim. That gives you a sense of what our elites profess to value: victimization, provided the victim in question is one of the Mascots of the Anointed. Kitty Genovese was also an ordinary person.

    As for his assailants, they likely were white supremicists. They may also have worn size 11 shoes and chewed tobacco. These aren’t what was salient about them. What was salient about them was that they were violent hot-heads of a rare sort. Also salient was that they were demented enough to brag about it to a magazine reporter. The last got them socially shunned to such a degree that they were constructively run out of town, because they could not make a living there anymore.

    • Agree: Paperback Writer
    • Thanks: Buffalo Joe
    • Replies: @Alden
    @Art Deco

    Mr. Bryant defended Mrs Bryant. And prevented further serious physical harassment rape attempts on her and other women by killing Till. Till was 14 about 5’8 160 pounds. Mrs Bryant was even smaller than I am, 5’2 about 105 pounds.

    No way a woman that size would be able to prevail in a physical struggle against a boy that size. Till didn’t back off until she managed to get hold of her gun. The Bryants often worked alone in a store frequented by blacks.

    The MEN OF UNZ are men. And none of you realized how suddenly strong you got about age 12 even before you started to grow. By 14 boys are much stronger than women and girls of the same size. And much much much stronger that girls and women 6 inches shorter and 55 pounds lighter.

    Ask sisters and mothers of 14 year old boys. Ask 15 year old sisters of 12 year old boys. Especially sisters of pestering 12 year old boys who like to wrestle.

    I object to the liberals introducing wolves and mountain lions into cattle and sheep grazing lands. I applaud every farmer that shoots a predator preying in his children or livestock. I applaud every man like Mr Bryant who makes sure a predator will never attack his wife again.

    And Mr Bryant did make sure predator Emmett Till never attacked a woman again. And by killing Till prevented some black on White rapes in the neighborhood For a while by punishing Till.

    I object to the black predators who prey on Whites. Especially black predators who prey on much smaller or older Whites. And the 5 on one beatings and robberies of 1 strong young White men by 5 strong young black men.

    Replies: @Art Deco

    , @Alden
    @Art Deco

    There were 3 assailants who killed Till. One was White, Bryant the husband of the woman Till tried to rape. The other 2 assailants were black employees of the Bryants

    I doubt you will find that 2 of the 3 killers were black on Wikipedia. The MEN OF UNZ the MEN OF UNZ and their 4th grade level Wikipedia “ research”.

    Considering average White IQ vs average black IQ, black crime rates vs White crime rates, black child abuse rates vs White child abuse rates, black driving offenses vs White driving offenses black behavior in school, the workplace, in public and at home vs White behavior in school the workplace in public and at home.

    Anyone but a pro black liberal must concede that Whites Hispanics Asians and all other races are supreme or superior to blacks.

    Replies: @Art Deco

  64. @kaganovitch
    @Buzz Mohawk

    Indeed now that you mention it, even my schools half a century ago devoted more time to the Holocaust than the Civil War. Interesting…

    In 1970?That's pre Holocaust 'industry', pretty much. Hard to believe, but I'll take your word for it.

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk

    It’s true. In 1974 I played Otto Frank in a mandatory play recreating Anne Frank’s Diary. That was for a junior high school “language arts” class. We read about and discussed the Holocaust. I have no memory whatsoever of any class covering the Civil War, at all, ever, in my school years.

    Then again, I dropped out as a junior, so maybe I missed something, but still, you would think by then it would have been covered. But, by God, I know all about Anne Frank and the Holocaust.

    Oh, and then on to college, finally, eventually for me. One class in my first semester had The Banality of Evil, by Hannah Arendt on the reading list. We covered it. I wrote about it on an exam. I got an “A.”

    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    @Buzz Mohawk

    Buzz et al, I was born in 1946, so my grammar schooling was basically post WWII. The holocaust was fresh in the minds of all the GIs who liberated camps and came home to speak about it. But, when you think about it, look at what the Civil War did to our country. I think because we are exposed to so little of the CW in school that when we start to discover it later in life it becomes a minor obsession. Hence, the dozens of CW books on my shelf behind me. Most of us in the US can make a visit to a CW battle field in a one day car trip. If the holocaust wasn't pounded into us, my children included, it would fade away.

    Replies: @El Dato, @Art Deco, @Anonymous, @Brutusale

    , @huisache
    @Buzz Mohawk

    I grew up in south Texas in the 50s and 60s and we learned all about the war between the states/civil war as early as grade school. Also learned about the holocaust, but not nearly as much. Also studied the war in high school, college and grad school. Still read about it some. It is a lot more relevant in the south than elsewhere. We lost. Badly. Southerners are still whipping boys to some extent.

    One of the reasons I am not bothered by the war on whites, such as it is, is because it is kind of fun to see the people who have been sneering at southerners for over a hundred years get a snootfull of their own medicine.

    , @kaganovitch
    @Buzz Mohawk

    It’s true. In 1974 I played Otto Frank in a mandatory play recreating Anne Frank’s Diary. That was for a junior high school “language arts” class. We read about and discussed the Holocaust. I have no memory whatsoever of any class covering the Civil War, at all, ever, in my school years.

    It's kind of ironic/funny. I grew up in Brooklyn in a %95 Jewish neighborhood and went to wall-to-wall Jewish schools and we never learned about the Holocaust in secular studies, whereas we learned much about the Civil War. On the other hand the overwhelming majority of the neighborhood were 'griner' or the children of those who had lived through the war in Europe so a Holocaust curriculum may have been viewed as 'Coals to Newcastle', so to speak.

    Replies: @Paperback Writer

  65. @Jonathan Mason
    It is nearly always the case that famous people who are converted into mythical figures have feet of clay.

    Even Jesus probably had his off days if truth be known.

    Was Sir Winston Churchill an inspiring national leader or an obnoxious old drunk?

    There is always political spin. Even in the venerable book The Twelve Caesars by Suetonius it is not really clear whether the character assassinations of Nero, Caligula, and others are based on fact or slander, and of course Suetonius was writing his tabloid-style best seller more than 100 years after the fact, without the benefit of newsreels, videotapes, or even printed media.

    The issue with Emmett Till is not what he was, but what he now represents in people's minds. Someone executed ex-judicially for a relatively minor offense, and one of the last people to be lynched, if not the last.

    Replies: @nebulafox, @Reg Cæsar, @Coemgen

    There is a real difference between ancient and modern historians: the former were openly biased and were expected to be by contemporaries. Ancient history was never an exercise in objective fact telling, something it took us a surprisingly long time to figure out in modern times.

    (Gibbon mostly uncritically bought into the “emperors that the aristocratic/theological historians-depending on the era-didn’t like were monsters” trope, for example, and that dominated Western historiography for a while.)

    They could also “imagine” what their subjects said in a way no modern historian can get away with, craft events to fit historical allusions, and even retrofit previous events to fit a constructive narrative without consciously intending to falsify what they saw as the truth.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @nebulafox

    The idea that what you write should be a sincere effort at "objectivity" even with respect to people you don't like or who belong to a different political faction is one of those tricky Western concepts that a lot of people even in the present don't really understand. Do Washington Post reporters write "objective" stories about Trump? Will histories of Trump written by "mainstream" liberal historians be objective?

    And read about Palin v. The New York Times to find out whether our elites have license to retrofit previous events to fit a constructive narrative. And they do so not innocently but while consciously intending to falsify.

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk, @nebulafox, @Paperback Writer

    , @rebel yell
    @nebulafox

    Worth noting that Thucydides was remarkably objective about the war with Sparta, especially considering that it was in his lifetime and his side lost. Reading his account, one trusts both his judgment and his factual claims, something that cannot be said about our current paper of record, the NYT.

    Replies: @nebulafox

  66. Looking up the winners of the Congressional Gold Medal, I see it’s basically the legislative branch’s equivalent of the more famous Presidential Medal of Freedom, but rarer, more committee-like, and more boring,

    Both awards are silly. You can see that by looking at the roster of the recipients but also by reminding yourself that the recipients are being recognized not by their peers but by politicians. That might be appropriate were it an award given to politicians or an award given for some variant of good citizenship (emphasis on ‘might’). Because politicians are with an exception here or there sh!tbags, any such award should be vetted by a jury of people selected at random from voting registers.

    • Agree: Johann Ricke
    • Replies: @Joe Stalin
    @Art Deco



    Looking up the winners of the Congressional Gold Medal, I see it’s basically the legislative branch’s equivalent of the more famous Presidential Medal of Freedom, but rarer, more committee-like, and more boring,
     
    Both awards are silly.
     
    Danes Bent Faurschou and his colleague Jørgen Haagen Schmith were presented the US Presidential Medal of Freedom for their actions in World War 2 resistance, posthumously.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAMIFdnnE20
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8L5RzEO1Eto

    Replies: @obwandiyag

    , @The Germ Theory of Disease
    @Art Deco

    "Because politicians are... sh!tbags, any such award should be vetted by a jury of people selected at random from voting registers."

    I've got a simpler and funnier solution. Any such award should simply be selected and awarded by me. It stands to reason that everybody would be happier that way.

    , @David In TN
    @Art Deco

    The Presidential Medal of Freedom was introduced in 1963 by JFK. It was from the start a kind of political-publicity thing.

    , @Paperback Writer
    @Art Deco


    Both awards are silly. You can see that by looking at the roster of the recipients
     
    This is cope.

    https://history.house.gov/Institution/Gold-Medal/Gold-Medal-Recipients/

    The first:

    George Washington March 25, 1776 Continental Congress Military General (future President of the United States) Recognized for his "wise and spirited conduct" in the seige [sic] and acquisition of Boston

    It's a distinguished list until recently.

    Bad cope.
  67. @nebulafox
    @nebulafox

    Update: Turner was considerably older, in her early 30s. My mistake. This makes more sense, it seems as though she was already the mother of two children by this point. But the contrast still stands. Consider which of these two incidents is more "heroic":

    Till was hitting on a married woman. How "creepy", to use modern parlance, he was being depends on who you believe: it's not as if Bryant and Co. don't have serious credibility issues, but let's suppose he was over-the-linen obnoxious, for the sake of discussion. This obviously isn't a crime that deserves arrest-let alone extralegal torture and death. But some harsh words, a complaint to the relatives he was staying with, and a smack across his ass that night wouldn't have been unjustified. And while no amount of non-prudence could have excused what happened to Till, he was a teenager from Chicago who'd been warned by others to keep his head down in Mississippi precisely because things were different down there.

    Was Till a victim? Certainly. A hero? Eh... not really.

    Turner, by contrast, was a sharecropper living in an era where, as I mentioned, prevailing racial attitudes were more barbaric. This was her life in a way it wasn't for Till, she didn't really have an "escape option": she might well have been illiterate. Her husband was murdered for a crime he didn't commit by a mob that was aware he didn't commit it. Her life probably looked pretty damn grim at that point: multiple kids, no father, rural Georgia in 1918. She could have been excused for burying her grief and keeping her head down to avoid further trouble. She knew what was "expected" of her, probably. She didn't. In her emotional grief, she refused to lie or dishonor the memory of her dead husband-choosing her duty to family over societal expectations a la Sophocles' Antigone. She publicly denied that he had anything to do with the murder, denounced his lynching, and threatened to pursue charges. That was an objectively brave act when you consider her circumstances and what was against her.

    And they didn't just kill her for this. They did what has to rank among the most objectively evil things you can do to another human being, something truly unspeakably horrific that should send everybody in that mob hooting and smiling straight to the lowest circles of hell. In my opinion, she deserves the accolades for the evils of Jim Crow, not just as a victim, but as someone who really did choose death before dishonor. But for reasons pertaining to the politics of the last 70 years... and particularly to the politics of today, she's not the one remembered. The best she gets is finally having a proper grave.

    I don't know why this irritates me so much, but it does.

    Replies: @Greta Handel

    Your pair of comments here are superb. Thank you.

  68. Res, have you seen this?

    Rare Genetic Variants Correlate with Better Processing Speed

    Rare alleles (not super-rare) with protective effects on cognitive aging are not exactly overclocking mutations, but they are not far off. At a minimum, it shows that rare alleles can cause a higher-functioning cognitive phenotype, at least in one area.

    Unlike my theory, these rare beneficial alleles were not associated with negative phenotypes in other areas, but maybe they just didn’t look? I can see thyroid hormone axis alleles being rare because a higher basal metabolic rate was not a great thing back when calories were harder to come by.

  69. @Jack D
    @smetana

    Bringing up an incident involving whites hurting blacks in 1950's - Unzites: "That's ridiculous. It happened long ago. Why are they bring this up now?"

    Bringing up an incident involving Jews hurting whites from the 1960's - Unzites: "Never Forget!"

    Replies: @Polistra, @John Milton’s Ghost, @Mike Tre, @El Dato

    Laughable statement from a guy belonging to the group who has made sure no one ever forgets muh holocaust.

  70. @Buzz Mohawk
    It's like looking at Led Zeppelin, David Letterman, Dustin Hoffman and some others receiving the Presidential Medal of Whatever at the Kennedy Center. If you're big enough for our dumb leaders to know who you are, then you don't need the honor.


    http://i.cbc.ca/1.1669484.1379079984!/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/16x9_1180/hi-kennedy-centre-hon-cp-03669438.jpg

    Replies: @Angular momentum, @The Ringmaster, @Reg Cæsar, @S. Anonyia

    What’s with the rainbow design? Is that new or just a long-standing tradition/coincidence?

    • Replies: @CCZ
    @S. Anonyia

    "Why are the Kennedy Center Honors ribbons rainbow colored?"

    "Designed by Ivan Chermayeff (the visionary illustrator and graphic designer responsible for the logo of multinational brands like National Geographic or NBC), the rainbow-colored ribbon symbolizes the range and versatility of skills in the field of performing arts."

    "As Ivan told The Washington Post Sunday in 2008, he didn't intend for it to evoke the style of the rainbow flag, which was first designed by a gay activist named Gilbert Baker and debuted at the San Francisco Gay Freedom Day Parade celebration on June 25, 1978."

    "That spectrum was what I had in mind in the first place, in that it's a spectrum of many skills within the performing arts," Ivan said. "Singing, dancing, and so on."

    https://www.distractify.com/p/why-are-the-kennedy-center-honors-ribbons-rainbow

  71. @John Milton’s Ghost
    @Jack D

    While there is indeed a lot of hateful trash around here who see the only good Jew is a dead Jew, there’s a difference in your comparison: blacks aren’t lynched any more. Gentiles are still marginalized, and moreso.

    Take out Jews from the enrollments of the Ivy League, and subtract LGBT-LMNOP degenerates and all the various POCs, and you have a tiny minority of Acceptable Whites who spout proper platitudes about the Deplorables.

    Replies: @Jack D

    Gentiles are still marginalized,

    Putting aside whether this is true (are Biden and Pelosi “marginalized”?) and putting aside whether there are really only a handful of non-Jewish goodwhites (I think it’s a lot more than a handful, especially among young females), what on earth does this have to do with the USS Liberty?

    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
    @Jack D


    what on earth does this have to do with the USS Liberty?
     
    Oh, so it's the Liberty, is it? Well, I was half asleep and I didn't even realize what you were getting at with your oblique 1960s reference.

    We hear repeatedly about Emmett Till, from our government and from our media.

    We do not hear about the USS Liberty. Why is that?

    It seems to me that more innocent people died and more culpable people perpetrated that event. So, why don't we hear about it except here and there wherever grumpy Americans like us converse?

    Replies: @Jack D, @nebulafox

  72. @SafeNow
    https://hips.hearstapps.com/esq.h-cdn.co/assets/cm/15/07/54da5fbddff5f_-_01-larry-skutnik-reagan-012610-lg.jpg

    Speaking of medals, on today’s date in 1982, Lenny Skutnick plunged into the icy Potomac and swam out to rescue one of the few survivors of the Air Florida crash. The Coast Guard issued its Gold Lifesaving Medal. They don’t give out very many of those, maybe one every few years. Some are posthumous. Reagan honored the nerdy, droopy-mustachioed budget-office employee a few weeks later at the State of the Union. Lenny was the first SOTU honoree.

    Tirado was about to drown. Dozens of first responders stood by on the banks of the river. It was only a short swim, but the water temperature was 33 degrees, and they all stood by. It was impossible to launch a raft because of the ice floes. The victim could not grasp a helicopter rope, because her hands had gone numb. Lenny could not just stand by. A very good man, deserving of our admiration and respect.

    Replies: @Inquiring Mind, @S. Anonyia, @Jim Don Bob, @Johann Ricke

    I guess modern America is far more nerdy than the 1980s, because there is little about his appearance or background that registers as nerdy to me.

  73. The government should not be picking winners and losers. To “honor” one group, no matter how objectively deserving its members (Hollywood idiots?), is to diminish every other group. When these sorts of distinctions are imposed by a single branch, e.g. PMF & CGM, it’s gray area (see Article 1 §9: No title of nobility shall be granted by the United States). When it’s made law, e.g. affirmative action / veteran preferences, it’s an illegal attainder (ibid).

    No more public school valedictorians, honor society, professors, etc.

  74. @Jack D
    @John Milton’s Ghost


    Gentiles are still marginalized,
     
    Putting aside whether this is true (are Biden and Pelosi "marginalized"?) and putting aside whether there are really only a handful of non-Jewish goodwhites (I think it's a lot more than a handful, especially among young females), what on earth does this have to do with the USS Liberty?

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk

    what on earth does this have to do with the USS Liberty?

    Oh, so it’s the Liberty, is it? Well, I was half asleep and I didn’t even realize what you were getting at with your oblique 1960s reference.

    We hear repeatedly about Emmett Till, from our government and from our media.

    We do not hear about the USS Liberty. Why is that?

    It seems to me that more innocent people died and more culpable people perpetrated that event. So, why don’t we hear about it except here and there wherever grumpy Americans like us converse?

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Buzz Mohawk

    Arguably, Till is emblematic of America's systemic racism, which (arguably) exists to this very day. A white man (according to some accounts) racistly ran over and shot an innocent black man just this week.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2022/01/11/jason-walker-/

    The Liberty incident was a fog of war type incident. Even US troops have friendly fire incidents where they fire on their own troops (or shoot down Iranian civilian passenger airliners and kill 290 people). Israel apologized for the attack. Both the Israeli and U.S. governments conducted inquiries and issued reports that concluded the attack was a mistake due to Israeli confusion about the ship's identity and the Israeli government paid compensation to the US and to the families of the victims. It did not have any long term lasting impact on US-Israeli relations and no more incidents of this kind have occurred. So bringing it up repeatedly has no purpose other than to stir up hatred.

    And as I mentioned, many Unz kvetchers wish that we wouldn't hear any more about Till. If you wish this, it ill behooves you to bring up other incidents that should also be dead letters now.

    Replies: @Mr. Anon, @El Dato, @Professional Slav, @Hibernian

    , @nebulafox
    @Buzz Mohawk

    The Israelis offered an official apology, financial restitution was paid, and people moved on. The issue is "settled", regardless of how deliberate the attack was. I'm not certain what more one could want, over 50 years later. By contrast, everybody knows that race relations in the US are a hot button topic, no matter what one thinks of the Narrative.

    (I have my areas of cynicism about our relationship with Israel over the decades, but this isn't one of them. The Israelis aren't dumb. The individual commander might not have cared, but why would the Israeli government itself embrace a policy that could potentially piss off the American public for not nearly enough discernible benefit?)

    Replies: @Mr. Anon, @Buzz Mohawk, @Alden

  75. @nebulafox
    @Jonathan Mason

    There is a real difference between ancient and modern historians: the former were openly biased and were expected to be by contemporaries. Ancient history was never an exercise in objective fact telling, something it took us a surprisingly long time to figure out in modern times.

    (Gibbon mostly uncritically bought into the "emperors that the aristocratic/theological historians-depending on the era-didn't like were monsters" trope, for example, and that dominated Western historiography for a while.)

    They could also "imagine" what their subjects said in a way no modern historian can get away with, craft events to fit historical allusions, and even retrofit previous events to fit a constructive narrative without consciously intending to falsify what they saw as the truth.

    Replies: @Jack D, @rebel yell

    The idea that what you write should be a sincere effort at “objectivity” even with respect to people you don’t like or who belong to a different political faction is one of those tricky Western concepts that a lot of people even in the present don’t really understand. Do Washington Post reporters write “objective” stories about Trump? Will histories of Trump written by “mainstream” liberal historians be objective?

    And read about Palin v. The New York Times to find out whether our elites have license to retrofit previous events to fit a constructive narrative. And they do so not innocently but while consciously intending to falsify.

    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
    @Jack D


    The idea that what you write should be a sincere effort at “objectivity” even with respect to people you don’t like or who belong to a different political faction is one of those tricky Western concepts that a lot of people even in the present don’t really understand.
     
    But it is important, because another "tricky Western" concept is that there is objective truth.

    Some people strive for it, because it is all that is real.
    , @nebulafox
    @Jack D

    We do our best to straighten the ship, and if it becomes clear it can't be, write things down for descendants fated to live in better times.

    There's one other difference that I failed to mention, now that I think about it. Pre-modern historians tended to view historical events through the prism of morality: the success or failure of a country was usually tied into the character of the leaders and the people as a whole. I.e, the Western Roman Empire didn't collapse because Germanic societies had changed and Rome didn't adapt successfully to this, but because Romans had become lazy decadent weaklings. And this was pretty consistent across different cultures: Islamic and Chinese historians viewed history through this character-driven lens as much as Greco-Roman or later European ones did. Or take Choniates trying to find a reason for why Constantinople was sacked by the Crusaders in a mental universe where God was a real factor. Clearly there was divine displeasure over the recent imperial dynasty. He looked back over the past 100 years and tried to outline Byzantine moral decline rather than focusing on the mundane commercial accidents of the previous 20, and occasionally twists our views of what actually happened as a result.

    I suspect the reason for this was because until the last few centuries of human history, it was taken for granted by the vast majority of people that the supernatural played a direct role in human affairs, with political victory being a sign of supernatural approval. That's not to say they didn't think their own material efforts didn't matter, they just didn't think it was the entire end-all.

    (I personally think in modern times we've gone a bit too far in the opposite direction in downplaying these factors totally. But obviously, this is a limited view of history that ignores the "material" factors.)

    >And they do so not innocently but while consciously intending to falsify.

    Or worse, they've convinced themselves that they and they alone know the "truth". That's scarier.

    Again, I think the ancient/medieval attitude is a lot easier to comprehend if one thinks of a world where the divine is taken for granted in a way it isn't today. If a grave, unexpected crisis or military success was looked back upon, the neat, rational conclusion to draw in that mental universe had divine favor as one of the ingredients: and that's easy to merge into a coherent, neat narrative that might have diverged from what actually happened. They didn't have the Internet or texts on demand.

    , @Paperback Writer
    @Jack D

    How many non-Western historians have you read? (China and Japan both had historians. I don't know about India. Islam had many.)

    Was Josephus objective?

    My point, obviously, is that "Western objectivity" is a recent invention. Probably it dates from 18th Century Germany and the higher criticism.

  76. @nebulafox
    @Jonathan Mason

    There is a real difference between ancient and modern historians: the former were openly biased and were expected to be by contemporaries. Ancient history was never an exercise in objective fact telling, something it took us a surprisingly long time to figure out in modern times.

    (Gibbon mostly uncritically bought into the "emperors that the aristocratic/theological historians-depending on the era-didn't like were monsters" trope, for example, and that dominated Western historiography for a while.)

    They could also "imagine" what their subjects said in a way no modern historian can get away with, craft events to fit historical allusions, and even retrofit previous events to fit a constructive narrative without consciously intending to falsify what they saw as the truth.

    Replies: @Jack D, @rebel yell

    Worth noting that Thucydides was remarkably objective about the war with Sparta, especially considering that it was in his lifetime and his side lost. Reading his account, one trusts both his judgment and his factual claims, something that cannot be said about our current paper of record, the NYT.

    • Replies: @nebulafox
    @rebel yell

    Thucydides had his biases-how could he not have, he was a direct participant with alternating relationships with the prominent characters in Athens-but I tend to lean more toward reliability than not.

    That being said, he was still a product of the classical world...

    "Insofar as these facts involve what the various participants said both before and during the actual conflict, recalling the exact words was difficult for me regarding speeches I heard myself and for my informants about speeches elsewhere; in the way I thought each would have said what was especially required in the given situation, I have stated accordingly, with the closest possible fidelity on my part to the overall sense of what was actually said.

    About the actions of the war, however, I considered it my responsibility to write neither as I learned from the chance informant nor according to my own opinion, but after examining what I witnessed myself and what I learned from others, with the utmost possible accuracy in each case. Finding out the facts involved great effort, because eye-witnesses did not report the same specific events in the same way, but according to individual partisanship or ability to remember. And the results, by avoiding patriotic storytelling, will perhaps be less enjoyable for listening. Yet if they are judged useful by any who wish to look at the plain truth about both past events and those that at some future time, in accordance with human nature, will recur in similar or comparable ways, that will suffice. It is a possession for all time, not a competition piece to be heard for the moment, that has been composed."

    I'm not saying don't believe Thucydides. I'm saying that he still wasn't a modern historian, both in terms of how he viewed the world (emphasis on the character of the citizenry of Athens, especially compared to Sparta, not material stuff) and in terms of sources.

    (Also, more trustworthy than the NYT? Damn, dude, damning with faint praise. :) )

  77. @Harry Baldwin
    Congress and the President seem to get many of their ideas about the history of heroism from movies

    Speaking of movies, Biden reminds me of an elderly Forrest Gump, recounting the wondrous events in his life--being arrested in Soweto while going to see Nelson Mandela, marching with Martin Luther King in Selma, awarding a medal to a soldier in Afghanistan, going to the Tree of Life synagogue after the shooting there, driving an 18-wheeler, facing down Corn Pop and his gang, his grandpa playing football after working eight hours in the coal mines--all these memories of wondrous things that never happened.

    Replies: @mmack, @Reg Cæsar, @Bernard

    Speaking of movies, Biden reminds me of an elderly Forrest Gump

    Or Chance the gardener. Or Zelig, perhaps. I never saw these movies, but read some of Being There. Johnny Carson had Jerzy Kosiński on many times.

    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
    @Reg Cæsar

    Biden is no Chance the Gardener, and he is no Forrest Gump. He is an aging political crook with none of the truth or grace of those characters. Please.

    Nor is he Zelig, a character who comically just happened to be everywhere. Joe Biden of Delaware was everywhere because he was working as a political whore from a tiny state.

    A state where you incorporate because of the tax advantages. There is no other reason to be there. It is the ass end of New Jersey.

    Have you ever driven through Delaware? You might have missed it. It's kind of like passing a parking lot next to a field.

    Replies: @Jim Don Bob, @Etruscan Film Star

    , @the one they call Desanex
    @Reg Cæsar

    I’ll save you the trouble of watching Being There. This is the good part.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2h0n3_ZIqt4

  78. @Jack D
    @nebulafox

    The idea that what you write should be a sincere effort at "objectivity" even with respect to people you don't like or who belong to a different political faction is one of those tricky Western concepts that a lot of people even in the present don't really understand. Do Washington Post reporters write "objective" stories about Trump? Will histories of Trump written by "mainstream" liberal historians be objective?

    And read about Palin v. The New York Times to find out whether our elites have license to retrofit previous events to fit a constructive narrative. And they do so not innocently but while consciously intending to falsify.

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk, @nebulafox, @Paperback Writer

    The idea that what you write should be a sincere effort at “objectivity” even with respect to people you don’t like or who belong to a different political faction is one of those tricky Western concepts that a lot of people even in the present don’t really understand.

    But it is important, because another “tricky Western” concept is that there is objective truth.

    Some people strive for it, because it is all that is real.

  79. @Jonathan Mason
    It is nearly always the case that famous people who are converted into mythical figures have feet of clay.

    Even Jesus probably had his off days if truth be known.

    Was Sir Winston Churchill an inspiring national leader or an obnoxious old drunk?

    There is always political spin. Even in the venerable book The Twelve Caesars by Suetonius it is not really clear whether the character assassinations of Nero, Caligula, and others are based on fact or slander, and of course Suetonius was writing his tabloid-style best seller more than 100 years after the fact, without the benefit of newsreels, videotapes, or even printed media.

    The issue with Emmett Till is not what he was, but what he now represents in people's minds. Someone executed ex-judicially for a relatively minor offense, and one of the last people to be lynched, if not the last.

    Replies: @nebulafox, @Reg Cæsar, @Coemgen

    Someone executed ex-judicially for a relatively minor offense executed ex-judicially for a relatively minor offense

    Easy for you to say. It wasn’t your wife.

    • Replies: @Jonathan Mason
    @Reg Cæsar

    He didn't kill her or rape her, and the abduction and killing of Emmett Till was not an act of passion. It was premeditated and it was a conspiracy.

    The trial was held at a time when jurors could still drink beer when on jury duty, and jurors later admitted that they believed the accused were guilty, but voted to find not guilty, because they did not think that the punishment fit the relatively minor crime of offing a negro kid.

    Emmett Till may have been no saint, but his name now stands as a symbol for all of this, and a celebration of the fact that the Civil War society finally died out about 100 years after that war.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Reg Cæsar

    , @Jack D
    @Reg Cæsar

    Even by the unwritten Code of the South, Till deserved no more than a good thrashing. This is (in part) why his killers were shunned even by their peers. Killing him was disproportionate to his crime even by Jim Crow standards.

    And yes there were standards - this is why the total number of lynching deaths between 1882 and 1968 in the United States was 4,743, including 3,446 African Americans and 1,297 whites. This works out to an average of 40 blacks per year, or about 3 weeks worth of murders in Chicago nowadays. The irony is that if Till had been murdered by his fellow blacks back in Chicago his death would have been a police blotter item and not a world historical event. But that's how it goes in tribal societies - deaths within the tribe are an internal affair but deaths caused by the other tribe must be avenged.

    Replies: @Johann Ricke

  80. @Reg Cæsar
    @Harry Baldwin


    Speaking of movies, Biden reminds me of an elderly Forrest Gump
     
    Or Chance the gardener. Or Zelig, perhaps. I never saw these movies, but read some of Being There. Johnny Carson had Jerzy Kosiński on many times.


    https://s.marketwatch.com/public/resources/images/MW-EM967_seller_ZG_20160518135123.jpg

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk, @the one they call Desanex

    Biden is no Chance the Gardener, and he is no Forrest Gump. He is an aging political crook with none of the truth or grace of those characters. Please.

    Nor is he Zelig, a character who comically just happened to be everywhere. Joe Biden of Delaware was everywhere because he was working as a political whore from a tiny state.

    A state where you incorporate because of the tax advantages. There is no other reason to be there. It is the ass end of New Jersey.

    Have you ever driven through Delaware? You might have missed it. It’s kind of like passing a parking lot next to a field.

    • LOL: bomag, El Dato
    • Replies: @Jim Don Bob
    @Buzz Mohawk

    Delaware north of Wilmington around Route 52 as it seques into SE Pennsylvania is beautiful hilly country with more than a few splendid estates some built by the duPonts. I know a family who bought one in the 70s - the drawers in the master bedroom were lined with silk among other lovely things.

    But yeah, Delaware south of the canal is basically as appealing as Arkansas west of Memphis on I-40 towards Little Rock.

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk, @rebel yell, @PiltdownMan, @Jack D

    , @Etruscan Film Star
    @Buzz Mohawk


    Have you ever driven through Delaware? You might have missed it. It’s kind of like passing a parking lot next to a field.
     
    I am not convinced Delaware exists. Ask someone where they are from. "I'm a Delawarean," says no one ever.
  81. @Buzz Mohawk
    @Jack D


    what on earth does this have to do with the USS Liberty?
     
    Oh, so it's the Liberty, is it? Well, I was half asleep and I didn't even realize what you were getting at with your oblique 1960s reference.

    We hear repeatedly about Emmett Till, from our government and from our media.

    We do not hear about the USS Liberty. Why is that?

    It seems to me that more innocent people died and more culpable people perpetrated that event. So, why don't we hear about it except here and there wherever grumpy Americans like us converse?

    Replies: @Jack D, @nebulafox

    Arguably, Till is emblematic of America’s systemic racism, which (arguably) exists to this very day. A white man (according to some accounts) racistly ran over and shot an innocent black man just this week.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2022/01/11/jason-walker-/

    The Liberty incident was a fog of war type incident. Even US troops have friendly fire incidents where they fire on their own troops (or shoot down Iranian civilian passenger airliners and kill 290 people). Israel apologized for the attack. Both the Israeli and U.S. governments conducted inquiries and issued reports that concluded the attack was a mistake due to Israeli confusion about the ship’s identity and the Israeli government paid compensation to the US and to the families of the victims. It did not have any long term lasting impact on US-Israeli relations and no more incidents of this kind have occurred. So bringing it up repeatedly has no purpose other than to stir up hatred.

    And as I mentioned, many Unz kvetchers wish that we wouldn’t hear any more about Till. If you wish this, it ill behooves you to bring up other incidents that should also be dead letters now.

    • Thanks: Johann Ricke
    • LOL: Buzz Mohawk
    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
    @Jack D


    The Liberty incident was a fog of war type incident.
     
    That was the official position of the two governments. It was not the opinion of virtually all the men who were attacked nor of many of their commanders - including senior commanders. It was not the opinion of the Secretary of State, the Chief of Naval Operations, the director of the CIA, nor a later director of the NSA.

    Both the Israeli and U.S. governments conducted inquiries and issued reports
     
    The US government apparently conducted a number of essentially sham inquiries, many of which were just restating of previous inquiry findings.

    It did not have any long term lasting impact on US-Israeli relations.....
     
    Uh, yeah, that was the point of hushing things up. So that there would be no lasting impact on US-Israeli relations.

    Anyway, "Get over it already" is kinda funny coming from people who have built religious holidays around ancient ethnic grievances.
    , @El Dato
    @Jack D


    The Liberty incident was a fog of war type incident.
     
    Laughable. Ridiculous. Willfully doped up with Crimethougtine.

    https://www.unz.com/nfinkelstein/to-live-or-to-perish/

    North: What do you think happened to the USS Liberty?

    I corresponded with one of the surviving crew members, James Ennis, who wrote a book on the attack indicting Israel. His account was totally credible.

    For example, a 5-by-8-foot American flag hoisted on the Liberty was fluttering in the wind on a crystalline summer day. Ennis recalled that before the assault an Israeli pilot overhead was flying so low they even waved to each other. So how could Israeli pilots have missed the flag?

    It’s ingenious—or hilarious—how Oren explains away this inconvenient fact. He says, “But Israeli pilots were not looking for the Liberty, but rather for Egyptian submarines.” In other words, the pilots didn’t see what was staring them in the face above the water because they were in search of a vessel beneath the water. This explanation must have deeply impressed the Los Angeles Times, which awarded him the newspaper’s annual book prize in history.

    North: The reason for the attack?

    None of the standard explanations hold up. I have my own hunch but I readily admit it’s highly speculative and unorthodox.

    Weiss: The conventional theory is the Liberty had radio surveillance and knocking out the Liberty allowed Israel to continue the war another two days.

    It’s alleged that the Liberty had gotten wind of the fact that Israel was going to seize the Golan, so Israel attacked it. But this theory doesn’t hold up on close inspection.

    My own hypothesis is, this is Israel’s big moment, the climactic of the Jewish people, a collective paroxysm-cum-orgasm. All the armed services want to get a piece of the action. The air force, the army, the navy.

    The navy hadn’t yet seen real combat. As the war was winding down, they were probably anxious to be part of this glorious chapter. To play their part in the Jewish people’s revenge on the goyim.

    Remember, the Israelis don’t just hate Arabs. They’re in an eternal war with all the goyim. All the goyim wanted the Jews dead. Just read Daniel Goldhagen if you have any doubts. The Americans are goyim. They refused entry to Jews fleeing the Holocaust; they didn’t bomb the railway tracks to Auschwitz; they, too, wanted all the Jews dead. Now they’re butting into our war, dispatching a spy ship into our waters, trying to restrain us in our moment of glory. Fuck the Americans! Fuck the goyim! Long live the Jews!

    Besides the Israeli air assault on the USS Liberty, the Israeli navy torpedoed the vessel. It got to share in the mock heroics and avenge the millennial suffering of the Jews. Everyone got their 15 minutes of drawing blood, in memoriam of the Jewish martyrs.

    I am the first to admit gaps in my hypothesis but it probably gets closer to the truth than positing a rational motive.
     

    Replies: @Jack D

    , @Professional Slav
    @Jack D

    You're usually a good poster, so it's surprising seeing you unable to put tribalism aside and look at the USS Liberty incident objectively even though it's off-topic.
    Everyone on board from the American side called all those "inquiries" complete shams.

    Replies: @Art Deco

    , @Hibernian
    @Jack D

    The Liberty was attacked repeatedly. Fog of war incidents are not always short term and then broken off quickly when the tragic error is realized, but most often they are. I'd like to hear of a true friendly fire incident from, say, WW1, WW2, Korea, Vietnam, etc., where the attacks were so persistent, if there was one. If a similar incident was American vs. American or Israeli vs. Israeli, it certainly would have been dealt with much differently.

    As for Till, sure the incident is going to be and should be. It's a question of degree.

  82. @nebulafox
    @Buffalo Joe

    Absolutely, and I don't think you are! Justice shouldn't operate on a spreadsheet: murder is murder, completely unacceptable, and that's all there is to it as far as I'm concerned.

    The media actively ignoring or distorting crimes, with the *ruined lives* involved, that don't "fit the narrative" truly disgusts me in a way little else does. These are real people. Real people whose lives ended, or were shattered. They don't care about the humans involved, they care about their abstract petty world-view. Or things like DAs who openly state that the people they get off the hook are probably going to end up killing others someday.

    Replies: @rebel yell

    Good comment Nebulafox. Being “selective” about which victims you concern yourself with, based on political ideology, is a clear sign that people don’t really care about justice or human life at all. They only care about their ideology.
    To me this is a first step to breaking away from being a stereotypical liberal or conservative. If your real interest is in safeguarding human life and promoting what is best in human life, and in honest thinking, then you become critical of many of the accepted opinions on left and right. Most people don’t care enough about human life or about honest thinking to open that can of worms.
    Of course, on a basic level we are all “selective” about who we care for – family first, then our own people over out-group people, and this is all well and good. But people who deny or ignore murders that are relevant to a debate, just to score debate points, have no character.

    • Replies: @Paperback Writer
    @rebel yell

    ry,

    I don't get why this is such a great comment. Everyone here is pretty smart; we all know that the Racial Grievance Industry picks and chooses. But let's say someone in the RGI picks up on Mary Turner, which we all agree was a horrific crime. Would that be a good thing? Serious question. I'm not trying to pick fights. I'm genuinely baffled at nebulafox's take here.

    Replies: @Colin Wright

  83. @Art Deco
    Looking up the winners of the Congressional Gold Medal, I see it’s basically the legislative branch’s equivalent of the more famous Presidential Medal of Freedom, but rarer, more committee-like, and more boring,

    Both awards are silly. You can see that by looking at the roster of the recipients but also by reminding yourself that the recipients are being recognized not by their peers but by politicians. That might be appropriate were it an award given to politicians or an award given for some variant of good citizenship (emphasis on 'might'). Because politicians are with an exception here or there sh!tbags, any such award should be vetted by a jury of people selected at random from voting registers.

    Replies: @Joe Stalin, @The Germ Theory of Disease, @David In TN, @Paperback Writer

    Looking up the winners of the Congressional Gold Medal, I see it’s basically the legislative branch’s equivalent of the more famous Presidential Medal of Freedom, but rarer, more committee-like, and more boring,

    Both awards are silly.

    Danes Bent Faurschou and his colleague Jørgen Haagen Schmith were presented the US Presidential Medal of Freedom for their actions in World War 2 resistance, posthumously.

    • Replies: @obwandiyag
    @Joe Stalin

    That whole movie just underlines the absurdity and pointlessness of war, even of the heroes.

    They sacrificed their lives to murder people who weren't bad, who were pretty good in fact, and everything they did did nothing whatsoever to further the end of the war or the victory of their people.

    Very heroic, if nihilism means heroism to you.

  84. @Jack D
    @nebulafox

    The idea that what you write should be a sincere effort at "objectivity" even with respect to people you don't like or who belong to a different political faction is one of those tricky Western concepts that a lot of people even in the present don't really understand. Do Washington Post reporters write "objective" stories about Trump? Will histories of Trump written by "mainstream" liberal historians be objective?

    And read about Palin v. The New York Times to find out whether our elites have license to retrofit previous events to fit a constructive narrative. And they do so not innocently but while consciously intending to falsify.

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk, @nebulafox, @Paperback Writer

    We do our best to straighten the ship, and if it becomes clear it can’t be, write things down for descendants fated to live in better times.

    There’s one other difference that I failed to mention, now that I think about it. Pre-modern historians tended to view historical events through the prism of morality: the success or failure of a country was usually tied into the character of the leaders and the people as a whole. I.e, the Western Roman Empire didn’t collapse because Germanic societies had changed and Rome didn’t adapt successfully to this, but because Romans had become lazy decadent weaklings. And this was pretty consistent across different cultures: Islamic and Chinese historians viewed history through this character-driven lens as much as Greco-Roman or later European ones did. Or take Choniates trying to find a reason for why Constantinople was sacked by the Crusaders in a mental universe where God was a real factor. Clearly there was divine displeasure over the recent imperial dynasty. He looked back over the past 100 years and tried to outline Byzantine moral decline rather than focusing on the mundane commercial accidents of the previous 20, and occasionally twists our views of what actually happened as a result.

    I suspect the reason for this was because until the last few centuries of human history, it was taken for granted by the vast majority of people that the supernatural played a direct role in human affairs, with political victory being a sign of supernatural approval. That’s not to say they didn’t think their own material efforts didn’t matter, they just didn’t think it was the entire end-all.

    (I personally think in modern times we’ve gone a bit too far in the opposite direction in downplaying these factors totally. But obviously, this is a limited view of history that ignores the “material” factors.)

    >And they do so not innocently but while consciously intending to falsify.

    Or worse, they’ve convinced themselves that they and they alone know the “truth”. That’s scarier.

    Again, I think the ancient/medieval attitude is a lot easier to comprehend if one thinks of a world where the divine is taken for granted in a way it isn’t today. If a grave, unexpected crisis or military success was looked back upon, the neat, rational conclusion to draw in that mental universe had divine favor as one of the ingredients: and that’s easy to merge into a coherent, neat narrative that might have diverged from what actually happened. They didn’t have the Internet or texts on demand.

  85. anonymous[420] • Disclaimer says:

    I wonder why historians chose Till as the event marking the start of the Civil Rights Movement? In the years preceding Till’s murder, there were many acts of defiance against Klan terrorism that could be counted as the beginning of a movement. Like this one from 1939:

    MIAMI, Fla., May 2 (AP).–Negroes ignored warnings issued during a spectacular demonstration by paraders in Ku Klux Klan regalia and cast a record vote today in a city primary election. The total was estimated at 1,000.

  86. @Buzz Mohawk
    @Jack D


    what on earth does this have to do with the USS Liberty?
     
    Oh, so it's the Liberty, is it? Well, I was half asleep and I didn't even realize what you were getting at with your oblique 1960s reference.

    We hear repeatedly about Emmett Till, from our government and from our media.

    We do not hear about the USS Liberty. Why is that?

    It seems to me that more innocent people died and more culpable people perpetrated that event. So, why don't we hear about it except here and there wherever grumpy Americans like us converse?

    Replies: @Jack D, @nebulafox

    The Israelis offered an official apology, financial restitution was paid, and people moved on. The issue is “settled”, regardless of how deliberate the attack was. I’m not certain what more one could want, over 50 years later. By contrast, everybody knows that race relations in the US are a hot button topic, no matter what one thinks of the Narrative.

    (I have my areas of cynicism about our relationship with Israel over the decades, but this isn’t one of them. The Israelis aren’t dumb. The individual commander might not have cared, but why would the Israeli government itself embrace a policy that could potentially piss off the American public for not nearly enough discernible benefit?)

    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
    @nebulafox


    The Israelis offered an official apology, financial restitution was paid, and people moved on. The issue is “settled”, regardless of how deliberate the attack was.
     
    Why is it "settled"? I thought we lived in a free country. We don't have to take official government opionions as having "settled" anything. Evidently a lot of people think the issue is not "settled" to thier satisfaction.

    "Sit down and shut up" is not an argument.

    , @Buzz Mohawk
    @nebulafox


    ... everybody knows that race relations in the US are a hot button topic...
     
    Who, exactly, decides what the "hot button" topics will be? Hmm?

    This is hilarious. I don't even have a big interest in this topic, but even I now can laugh about the pro-Israeli responses and Jewish responses to it.

    You guys are too funny.

    And why should you, dear commenter and your fellow, even suggest that the Emmet Till nonsense is relevant today because of a "hot button topic." That is ridiculous. According to your twisted, manipulative, Talmudic logic, we can welcome Emmet Till while ignoring all the dead sailors on the USS Liberty.


    The issue is “settled”, regardless of how deliberate the attack was.
     
    It seems that the Till case was also "settled," no? So where is your logic?

    There isn't any. You only twist it to serve your argument. Par for the course, eh?

    Replies: @Jack D, @nebulafox

    , @Alden
    @nebulafox

    The American taxpayers via the American government gave the Israelis the restitution money.

    The Israeli government didn’t pay any restitution money. The American taxpayers paid the restitution money.

    Replies: @Art Deco

  87. @Jack D
    @Buzz Mohawk

    Arguably, Till is emblematic of America's systemic racism, which (arguably) exists to this very day. A white man (according to some accounts) racistly ran over and shot an innocent black man just this week.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2022/01/11/jason-walker-/

    The Liberty incident was a fog of war type incident. Even US troops have friendly fire incidents where they fire on their own troops (or shoot down Iranian civilian passenger airliners and kill 290 people). Israel apologized for the attack. Both the Israeli and U.S. governments conducted inquiries and issued reports that concluded the attack was a mistake due to Israeli confusion about the ship's identity and the Israeli government paid compensation to the US and to the families of the victims. It did not have any long term lasting impact on US-Israeli relations and no more incidents of this kind have occurred. So bringing it up repeatedly has no purpose other than to stir up hatred.

    And as I mentioned, many Unz kvetchers wish that we wouldn't hear any more about Till. If you wish this, it ill behooves you to bring up other incidents that should also be dead letters now.

    Replies: @Mr. Anon, @El Dato, @Professional Slav, @Hibernian

    The Liberty incident was a fog of war type incident.

    That was the official position of the two governments. It was not the opinion of virtually all the men who were attacked nor of many of their commanders – including senior commanders. It was not the opinion of the Secretary of State, the Chief of Naval Operations, the director of the CIA, nor a later director of the NSA.

    Both the Israeli and U.S. governments conducted inquiries and issued reports

    The US government apparently conducted a number of essentially sham inquiries, many of which were just restating of previous inquiry findings.

    It did not have any long term lasting impact on US-Israeli relations…..

    Uh, yeah, that was the point of hushing things up. So that there would be no lasting impact on US-Israeli relations.

    Anyway, “Get over it already” is kinda funny coming from people who have built religious holidays around ancient ethnic grievances.

  88. @nebulafox
    @Buzz Mohawk

    The Israelis offered an official apology, financial restitution was paid, and people moved on. The issue is "settled", regardless of how deliberate the attack was. I'm not certain what more one could want, over 50 years later. By contrast, everybody knows that race relations in the US are a hot button topic, no matter what one thinks of the Narrative.

    (I have my areas of cynicism about our relationship with Israel over the decades, but this isn't one of them. The Israelis aren't dumb. The individual commander might not have cared, but why would the Israeli government itself embrace a policy that could potentially piss off the American public for not nearly enough discernible benefit?)

    Replies: @Mr. Anon, @Buzz Mohawk, @Alden

    The Israelis offered an official apology, financial restitution was paid, and people moved on. The issue is “settled”, regardless of how deliberate the attack was.

    Why is it “settled”? I thought we lived in a free country. We don’t have to take official government opionions as having “settled” anything. Evidently a lot of people think the issue is not “settled” to thier satisfaction.

    “Sit down and shut up” is not an argument.

    • Agree: Hibernian
  89. @jimmyriddle
    "Emmet" is a mildly derogatory term for a tourist in Cornwall. It comes from a dialect word for "ant".

    Replies: @Abolish_public_education

    “Emmet” is a mildly derogatory term for a tourist

    Emet(h) is Hebrew for “truth”.

  90. @nebulafox
    @Buzz Mohawk

    The Israelis offered an official apology, financial restitution was paid, and people moved on. The issue is "settled", regardless of how deliberate the attack was. I'm not certain what more one could want, over 50 years later. By contrast, everybody knows that race relations in the US are a hot button topic, no matter what one thinks of the Narrative.

    (I have my areas of cynicism about our relationship with Israel over the decades, but this isn't one of them. The Israelis aren't dumb. The individual commander might not have cared, but why would the Israeli government itself embrace a policy that could potentially piss off the American public for not nearly enough discernible benefit?)

    Replies: @Mr. Anon, @Buzz Mohawk, @Alden

    … everybody knows that race relations in the US are a hot button topic…

    Who, exactly, decides what the “hot button” topics will be? Hmm?

    This is hilarious. I don’t even have a big interest in this topic, but even I now can laugh about the pro-Israeli responses and Jewish responses to it.

    You guys are too funny.

    And why should you, dear commenter and your fellow, even suggest that the Emmet Till nonsense is relevant today because of a “hot button topic.” That is ridiculous. According to your twisted, manipulative, Talmudic logic, we can welcome Emmet Till while ignoring all the dead sailors on the USS Liberty.

    The issue is “settled”, regardless of how deliberate the attack was.

    It seems that the Till case was also “settled,” no? So where is your logic?

    There isn’t any. You only twist it to serve your argument. Par for the course, eh?

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Buzz Mohawk

    I'm in favor of consistency here. The US Congress seems to think that the Emmett Till affair is not settled but that the USS Liberty incident IS settled. The Men of Unz apparently would prefer the opposite. Although there is more reason for considering the Emmett Till affair to be unfinished business, my position is that both of these matters should be considered "settled" and, while they should be mentioned in the history books, neither event is in need of any further medal awards.

    Replies: @Art Deco

    , @nebulafox
    @Buzz Mohawk

    >You guys are too funny.

    Μήτι ἐγὼἸουδαῖός εἰμι? - John 18:35.

    >It seems that the Till case was also “settled,” no?

    Which one is more likely to be used in electoral propaganda next year? This isn't science. Politics creates its own reality. Things are relevant as long as people care about them. Nobody cares about the Liberty. The Democrats care about Till, and have the institutional power to make that relevant.

  91. Congressional Gold Medal for an attempted racist. In another generation rape of White women by black men will be legal.

  92. @nebulafox
    @Buzz Mohawk

    The Israelis offered an official apology, financial restitution was paid, and people moved on. The issue is "settled", regardless of how deliberate the attack was. I'm not certain what more one could want, over 50 years later. By contrast, everybody knows that race relations in the US are a hot button topic, no matter what one thinks of the Narrative.

    (I have my areas of cynicism about our relationship with Israel over the decades, but this isn't one of them. The Israelis aren't dumb. The individual commander might not have cared, but why would the Israeli government itself embrace a policy that could potentially piss off the American public for not nearly enough discernible benefit?)

    Replies: @Mr. Anon, @Buzz Mohawk, @Alden

    The American taxpayers via the American government gave the Israelis the restitution money.

    The Israeli government didn’t pay any restitution money. The American taxpayers paid the restitution money.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    @Alden

    They didn't. Israel received almost nothing in the way of government-to-goverment aid from the United States prior to 1973.

  93. Congress and the President seem to get many of their ideas about the history of heroism from movies (e.g., the Hidden Figures ladies).

    Louis Till is a true Hidden Figure.

  94. @Jonathan Mason
    It is nearly always the case that famous people who are converted into mythical figures have feet of clay.

    Even Jesus probably had his off days if truth be known.

    Was Sir Winston Churchill an inspiring national leader or an obnoxious old drunk?

    There is always political spin. Even in the venerable book The Twelve Caesars by Suetonius it is not really clear whether the character assassinations of Nero, Caligula, and others are based on fact or slander, and of course Suetonius was writing his tabloid-style best seller more than 100 years after the fact, without the benefit of newsreels, videotapes, or even printed media.

    The issue with Emmett Till is not what he was, but what he now represents in people's minds. Someone executed ex-judicially for a relatively minor offense, and one of the last people to be lynched, if not the last.

    Replies: @nebulafox, @Reg Cæsar, @Coemgen

    The issue with Emmett Till is not what he was, but what he now represents in people’s minds.

    The issue with Emmett Till is, he is now used to inflame anti-White racial animosities.

    • Agree: Detroit Refugee
  95. @Reg Cæsar
    @Jonathan Mason


    Someone executed ex-judicially for a relatively minor offense executed ex-judicially for a relatively minor offense
     
    Easy for you to say. It wasn't your wife.

    Replies: @Jonathan Mason, @Jack D

    He didn’t kill her or rape her, and the abduction and killing of Emmett Till was not an act of passion. It was premeditated and it was a conspiracy.

    The trial was held at a time when jurors could still drink beer when on jury duty, and jurors later admitted that they believed the accused were guilty, but voted to find not guilty, because they did not think that the punishment fit the relatively minor crime of offing a negro kid.

    Emmett Till may have been no saint, but his name now stands as a symbol for all of this, and a celebration of the fact that the Civil War society finally died out about 100 years after that war.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Jonathan Mason


    He didn’t kill her or rape her, and the abduction and killing of Emmett Till was not an act of passion. It was premeditated and it was a conspiracy.
     
    They did not plan to kill him.
    , @Reg Cæsar
    @Jonathan Mason


    ...but voted to find not guilty, because they did not think that the punishment fit the relatively minor crime of offing a negro kid.
     
    That, not the actual murder, was what scandalized the country. This part is what's glossed over today.
  96. @Reg Cæsar
    @Harry Baldwin


    Speaking of movies, Biden reminds me of an elderly Forrest Gump
     
    Or Chance the gardener. Or Zelig, perhaps. I never saw these movies, but read some of Being There. Johnny Carson had Jerzy Kosiński on many times.


    https://s.marketwatch.com/public/resources/images/MW-EM967_seller_ZG_20160518135123.jpg

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk, @the one they call Desanex

    I’ll save you the trouble of watching Being There. This is the good part.

  97. Breaking news: Congress earnestly and urgently wants to you know its medals are worthless and you should ignore them.

    Thanks Congress! I was already doing that, but the truth always bears repeating, don’t you agree?

    “We have time to bother with things like this, because it’s not like we have a real job!” Yes Congress, I know. Did you know this sort of thing damages your self-respect? Trying to show off how useless you are does earn Veblenian conspicuous consumption points, at the cost of proving to yourself you’re a useless eater.
    For your own sake, it’s better to retire and play like you mean it, or else contribute by contributing.

    P.S. The shills at Unz aren’t usually overly obvious, but they’ve really come out in force today. The comment thread is going to earn its own Congressional medal at this rate.

  98. What’s dispiriting about the recent zeitgeist is its flattening of multidimensional human experience to a single one-dimensional point: minority-victim-discrimination. There is vastly more to personal life, social life, knowledge, science, history, you name it. I pity the youngest generation for being deprived of almost the entirety of the human heritage.

  99. @Reg Cæsar
    @Jonathan Mason


    Someone executed ex-judicially for a relatively minor offense executed ex-judicially for a relatively minor offense
     
    Easy for you to say. It wasn't your wife.

    Replies: @Jonathan Mason, @Jack D

    Even by the unwritten Code of the South, Till deserved no more than a good thrashing. This is (in part) why his killers were shunned even by their peers. Killing him was disproportionate to his crime even by Jim Crow standards.

    And yes there were standards – this is why the total number of lynching deaths between 1882 and 1968 in the United States was 4,743, including 3,446 African Americans and 1,297 whites. This works out to an average of 40 blacks per year, or about 3 weeks worth of murders in Chicago nowadays. The irony is that if Till had been murdered by his fellow blacks back in Chicago his death would have been a police blotter item and not a world historical event. But that’s how it goes in tribal societies – deaths within the tribe are an internal affair but deaths caused by the other tribe must be avenged.

    • Agree: Dieter Kief
    • Replies: @Johann Ricke
    @Jack D


    And yes there were standards – this is why the total number of lynching deaths between 1882 and 1968 in the United States was 4,743, including 3,446 African Americans and 1,297 whites. This works out to an average of 40 blacks per year, or about 3 weeks worth of murders in Chicago nowadays.
     
    IIRC, the lynchings were over accusations of criminal acts ranging from horse thievery, rape all the way to murder. Old newspaper article:

    https://cdnc.ucr.edu/?a=d&d=LAH19010728.2.89&e=-------en--20--1--txt-txIN--------1

    Partial Wikipedia list:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_lynching_victims_in_the_United_States
  100. @Buzz Mohawk
    @nebulafox


    ... everybody knows that race relations in the US are a hot button topic...
     
    Who, exactly, decides what the "hot button" topics will be? Hmm?

    This is hilarious. I don't even have a big interest in this topic, but even I now can laugh about the pro-Israeli responses and Jewish responses to it.

    You guys are too funny.

    And why should you, dear commenter and your fellow, even suggest that the Emmet Till nonsense is relevant today because of a "hot button topic." That is ridiculous. According to your twisted, manipulative, Talmudic logic, we can welcome Emmet Till while ignoring all the dead sailors on the USS Liberty.


    The issue is “settled”, regardless of how deliberate the attack was.
     
    It seems that the Till case was also "settled," no? So where is your logic?

    There isn't any. You only twist it to serve your argument. Par for the course, eh?

    Replies: @Jack D, @nebulafox

    I’m in favor of consistency here. The US Congress seems to think that the Emmett Till affair is not settled but that the USS Liberty incident IS settled. The Men of Unz apparently would prefer the opposite. Although there is more reason for considering the Emmett Till affair to be unfinished business, my position is that both of these matters should be considered “settled” and, while they should be mentioned in the history books, neither event is in need of any further medal awards.

    • Disagree: Colin Wright
    • Thanks: Buzz Mohawk
    • Replies: @Art Deco
    @Jack D

    Although there is more reason for considering the Emmett Till affair to be unfinished business,

    Not really. The only parties to the dispute still alive are some juvenile witnesses (now septuagenarians) and Carolyn Bryant, who is 88 years old, whose culpability was uncertain at the time, and who has lived 60 years past any sensible statute of limitations for any offense she might have committed. It might be advisable for a researcher to interview any bystanders left and memorialize their retrospective accounts. These are matters for the archives. And it's really local history, without much larger significance.

  101. @Jack D
    @smetana

    Bringing up an incident involving whites hurting blacks in 1950's - Unzites: "That's ridiculous. It happened long ago. Why are they bring this up now?"

    Bringing up an incident involving Jews hurting whites from the 1960's - Unzites: "Never Forget!"

    Replies: @Polistra, @John Milton’s Ghost, @Mike Tre, @El Dato

    Yeah but they always bring up the same guy!

  102. @Buzz Mohawk
    @Buffalo Joe


    American public education has probably devoted more time to the Holocaust than the Civil War.
     
    Indeed now that you mention it, even my schools half a century ago devoted more time to the Holocaust than the Civil War. Interesting...

    Replies: @kaganovitch, @Buffalo Joe

    Buzz, I am sure your school was not an outlier. So now it will be racial injustice until the next low fruit ripens.

  103. @Arclight
    As Steve and other like to say, racism is such a problem in America that we have to reach back to a time when 85% of the current population wasn't even born to find a compelling example.

    Blacks are not the only racial or ethnic group for whom real or perceived oppression is a core part of their identity, but probably the group whose self-conception and preferred portrayal in popular culture is so centered around this as opposed to subsequent achievements or success. Thus all history lessons are centered around this and all 'serious' movies and such are almost exclusively about how much it sucks to be black in America.

    Replies: @Lurker

    Thus all history lessons are centered around this and all ‘serious’ movies and such are almost exclusively about how much it sucks to be black in America.

    Yet for some mysterious reason black people still migrate to the USA.

    • Agree: Hangnail Hans
  104. @Buzz Mohawk
    @kaganovitch

    It's true. In 1974 I played Otto Frank in a mandatory play recreating Anne Frank's Diary. That was for a junior high school "language arts" class. We read about and discussed the Holocaust. I have no memory whatsoever of any class covering the Civil War, at all, ever, in my school years.

    Then again, I dropped out as a junior, so maybe I missed something, but still, you would think by then it would have been covered. But, by God, I know all about Anne Frank and the Holocaust.

    Oh, and then on to college, finally, eventually for me. One class in my first semester had The Banality of Evil, by Hannah Arendt on the reading list. We covered it. I wrote about it on an exam. I got an "A."

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe, @huisache, @kaganovitch

    Buzz et al, I was born in 1946, so my grammar schooling was basically post WWII. The holocaust was fresh in the minds of all the GIs who liberated camps and came home to speak about it. But, when you think about it, look at what the Civil War did to our country. I think because we are exposed to so little of the CW in school that when we start to discover it later in life it becomes a minor obsession. Hence, the dozens of CW books on my shelf behind me. Most of us in the US can make a visit to a CW battle field in a one day car trip. If the holocaust wasn’t pounded into us, my children included, it would fade away.

    • Thanks: Buzz Mohawk
    • Replies: @El Dato
    @Buffalo Joe

    But the GIs didn't liberate "holocaust camps", just so-called "work camps" which was horrible enough.

    , @Art Deco
    @Buffalo Joe

    If the holocaust wasn’t pounded into us, my children included, it would fade away.

    Well, yes, if the history of something isn't taught, people generally do not learn it on their own.

    We haven't had a boatload of wars of general mobilization in this country's history, the sheer scale of the 2d world war dwarfs all the others, and an integral part of the discussion of it is the enemy diverting masses of men and materiel to slaughtering a seven-digit population of non-combatants. No clue why you object to lectures on the subject. It's kinda important.

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe

    , @Anonymous
    @Buffalo Joe


    Buzz et al, I was born in 1946, so my grammar schooling was basically post WWII. The holocaust was fresh in the minds of all the GIs who liberated camps and came home to speak about it.
     
    None of the GIs who “liberated the camps” witnessed “the Holocaust.”

    Every single alleged “death camp” was located after the defeat of Germany in Soviet territory, oddly enough.
    , @Brutusale
    @Buffalo Joe

    I guess that was one of the upsides of going to Catholic schools. We spend far more time on the Civil War. Buzz, about the same time you were playing Otto Frank I was playing Preston Brooks in history class, beating my buddy with a cardboard cane. Fun fact: this friend and I used to play Little League baseball behind the Charles Sumner Junior High.

    College was another story. I had to sit through Night and Fog twice!

  105. @Joe Stalin
    @Art Deco



    Looking up the winners of the Congressional Gold Medal, I see it’s basically the legislative branch’s equivalent of the more famous Presidential Medal of Freedom, but rarer, more committee-like, and more boring,
     
    Both awards are silly.
     
    Danes Bent Faurschou and his colleague Jørgen Haagen Schmith were presented the US Presidential Medal of Freedom for their actions in World War 2 resistance, posthumously.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAMIFdnnE20
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8L5RzEO1Eto

    Replies: @obwandiyag

    That whole movie just underlines the absurdity and pointlessness of war, even of the heroes.

    They sacrificed their lives to murder people who weren’t bad, who were pretty good in fact, and everything they did did nothing whatsoever to further the end of the war or the victory of their people.

    Very heroic, if nihilism means heroism to you.

  106. @Danindc
    Will there be an Emmet Till channel?

    People like golf and there is a golf channel.

    “There’s nothing on the golf channel. Change the channel to the Emmet Till channel. I heard there’s a good biography of Emmet Till on…”

    Replies: @Dave Pinsen

    Maybe a bimonthly magazine, like they have for World War II.

  107. @Buzz Mohawk
    @kaganovitch

    It's true. In 1974 I played Otto Frank in a mandatory play recreating Anne Frank's Diary. That was for a junior high school "language arts" class. We read about and discussed the Holocaust. I have no memory whatsoever of any class covering the Civil War, at all, ever, in my school years.

    Then again, I dropped out as a junior, so maybe I missed something, but still, you would think by then it would have been covered. But, by God, I know all about Anne Frank and the Holocaust.

    Oh, and then on to college, finally, eventually for me. One class in my first semester had The Banality of Evil, by Hannah Arendt on the reading list. We covered it. I wrote about it on an exam. I got an "A."

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe, @huisache, @kaganovitch

    I grew up in south Texas in the 50s and 60s and we learned all about the war between the states/civil war as early as grade school. Also learned about the holocaust, but not nearly as much. Also studied the war in high school, college and grad school. Still read about it some. It is a lot more relevant in the south than elsewhere. We lost. Badly. Southerners are still whipping boys to some extent.

    One of the reasons I am not bothered by the war on whites, such as it is, is because it is kind of fun to see the people who have been sneering at southerners for over a hundred years get a snootfull of their own medicine.

  108. @Inquiring Mind
    @SafeNow

    Yeah, and to think that when iSteve was faced with bystanders standing around slack jawed in Chicago, all he did was toss one of those life rings from the case on the drawbridge railing.

    With respect to Mr. Skutnick's heroism, did any of the rescue personnel tie a rope around him before he jumped in, kind of like the rope attached to iSteve's life ring? That way they could winch the plucky Federal worker back to safety if he passed out from the cold?

    Replies: @SafeNow

    No, no rope was tied around Lenny. Just as well..possible entanglement with the ice, plus not necessary… it would take 10 minutes for hypothermia to disable him. Also, I would guess that the timid “responders” would want nothing to do with being Lenny’s assistant. Lenny just acted. As they say in the USCG, Take action now, get permission later. But good thought about the rope. On a USCG cutter, the swimmer usually has a line attached to him. A “certified line tender” works the line and the winch.

  109. @Jack D
    @Reg Cæsar

    Even by the unwritten Code of the South, Till deserved no more than a good thrashing. This is (in part) why his killers were shunned even by their peers. Killing him was disproportionate to his crime even by Jim Crow standards.

    And yes there were standards - this is why the total number of lynching deaths between 1882 and 1968 in the United States was 4,743, including 3,446 African Americans and 1,297 whites. This works out to an average of 40 blacks per year, or about 3 weeks worth of murders in Chicago nowadays. The irony is that if Till had been murdered by his fellow blacks back in Chicago his death would have been a police blotter item and not a world historical event. But that's how it goes in tribal societies - deaths within the tribe are an internal affair but deaths caused by the other tribe must be avenged.

    Replies: @Johann Ricke

    And yes there were standards – this is why the total number of lynching deaths between 1882 and 1968 in the United States was 4,743, including 3,446 African Americans and 1,297 whites. This works out to an average of 40 blacks per year, or about 3 weeks worth of murders in Chicago nowadays.

    IIRC, the lynchings were over accusations of criminal acts ranging from horse thievery, rape all the way to murder. Old newspaper article:

    https://cdnc.ucr.edu/?a=d&d=LAH19010728.2.89&e=——-en–20–1–txt-txIN—-----1

    Partial Wikipedia list:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_lynching_victims_in_the_United_States

  110. @Alden
    @nebulafox

    The American taxpayers via the American government gave the Israelis the restitution money.

    The Israeli government didn’t pay any restitution money. The American taxpayers paid the restitution money.

    Replies: @Art Deco

    They didn’t. Israel received almost nothing in the way of government-to-goverment aid from the United States prior to 1973.

  111. @Jack D
    @Buzz Mohawk

    Arguably, Till is emblematic of America's systemic racism, which (arguably) exists to this very day. A white man (according to some accounts) racistly ran over and shot an innocent black man just this week.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2022/01/11/jason-walker-/

    The Liberty incident was a fog of war type incident. Even US troops have friendly fire incidents where they fire on their own troops (or shoot down Iranian civilian passenger airliners and kill 290 people). Israel apologized for the attack. Both the Israeli and U.S. governments conducted inquiries and issued reports that concluded the attack was a mistake due to Israeli confusion about the ship's identity and the Israeli government paid compensation to the US and to the families of the victims. It did not have any long term lasting impact on US-Israeli relations and no more incidents of this kind have occurred. So bringing it up repeatedly has no purpose other than to stir up hatred.

    And as I mentioned, many Unz kvetchers wish that we wouldn't hear any more about Till. If you wish this, it ill behooves you to bring up other incidents that should also be dead letters now.

    Replies: @Mr. Anon, @El Dato, @Professional Slav, @Hibernian

    The Liberty incident was a fog of war type incident.

    Laughable. Ridiculous. Willfully doped up with Crimethougtine.

    https://www.unz.com/nfinkelstein/to-live-or-to-perish/

    North: What do you think happened to the USS Liberty?

    I corresponded with one of the surviving crew members, James Ennis, who wrote a book on the attack indicting Israel. His account was totally credible.

    For example, a 5-by-8-foot American flag hoisted on the Liberty was fluttering in the wind on a crystalline summer day. Ennis recalled that before the assault an Israeli pilot overhead was flying so low they even waved to each other. So how could Israeli pilots have missed the flag?

    It’s ingenious—or hilarious—how Oren explains away this inconvenient fact. He says, “But Israeli pilots were not looking for the Liberty, but rather for Egyptian submarines.” In other words, the pilots didn’t see what was staring them in the face above the water because they were in search of a vessel beneath the water. This explanation must have deeply impressed the Los Angeles Times, which awarded him the newspaper’s annual book prize in history.

    North: The reason for the attack?

    None of the standard explanations hold up. I have my own hunch but I readily admit it’s highly speculative and unorthodox.

    Weiss: The conventional theory is the Liberty had radio surveillance and knocking out the Liberty allowed Israel to continue the war another two days.

    It’s alleged that the Liberty had gotten wind of the fact that Israel was going to seize the Golan, so Israel attacked it. But this theory doesn’t hold up on close inspection.

    My own hypothesis is, this is Israel’s big moment, the climactic of the Jewish people, a collective paroxysm-cum-orgasm. All the armed services want to get a piece of the action. The air force, the army, the navy.

    The navy hadn’t yet seen real combat. As the war was winding down, they were probably anxious to be part of this glorious chapter. To play their part in the Jewish people’s revenge on the goyim.

    Remember, the Israelis don’t just hate Arabs. They’re in an eternal war with all the goyim. All the goyim wanted the Jews dead. Just read Daniel Goldhagen if you have any doubts. The Americans are goyim. They refused entry to Jews fleeing the Holocaust; they didn’t bomb the railway tracks to Auschwitz; they, too, wanted all the Jews dead. Now they’re butting into our war, dispatching a spy ship into our waters, trying to restrain us in our moment of glory. Fuck the Americans! Fuck the goyim! Long live the Jews!

    Besides the Israeli air assault on the USS Liberty, the Israeli navy torpedoed the vessel. It got to share in the mock heroics and avenge the millennial suffering of the Jews. Everyone got their 15 minutes of drawing blood, in memoriam of the Jewish martyrs.

    I am the first to admit gaps in my hypothesis but it probably gets closer to the truth than positing a rational motive.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @El Dato

    Generally speaking Israelis love America. A lot more than the Arab do, that's for sure. The happiest day of my father's life was the day that the Americans liberated his camp.

  112. @Buffalo Joe
    @Buzz Mohawk

    Buzz et al, I was born in 1946, so my grammar schooling was basically post WWII. The holocaust was fresh in the minds of all the GIs who liberated camps and came home to speak about it. But, when you think about it, look at what the Civil War did to our country. I think because we are exposed to so little of the CW in school that when we start to discover it later in life it becomes a minor obsession. Hence, the dozens of CW books on my shelf behind me. Most of us in the US can make a visit to a CW battle field in a one day car trip. If the holocaust wasn't pounded into us, my children included, it would fade away.

    Replies: @El Dato, @Art Deco, @Anonymous, @Brutusale

    But the GIs didn’t liberate “holocaust camps”, just so-called “work camps” which was horrible enough.

  113. @Mr. Anon

    Congress and the President seem to get many of their ideas about the history of heroism from movies (e.g., the Hidden Figures ladies).
     
    I look forward to the day when the Congress and the President award these medals to Captain America, Iron Man, and Spiderman. Hell, why not to all the Avengers.

    Replies: @Anonymous

    even Ant-man?

  114. @Harry Baldwin
    Congress and the President seem to get many of their ideas about the history of heroism from movies

    Speaking of movies, Biden reminds me of an elderly Forrest Gump, recounting the wondrous events in his life--being arrested in Soweto while going to see Nelson Mandela, marching with Martin Luther King in Selma, awarding a medal to a soldier in Afghanistan, going to the Tree of Life synagogue after the shooting there, driving an 18-wheeler, facing down Corn Pop and his gang, his grandpa playing football after working eight hours in the coal mines--all these memories of wondrous things that never happened.

    Replies: @mmack, @Reg Cæsar, @Bernard

    Speaking of movies, Biden reminds me of an elderly Forrest Gump, recounting the wondrous events in his life–being arrested in Soweto while going to see Nelson Mandela, marching with Martin Luther King in Selma, awarding a medal to a soldier in Afghanistan, going to the Tree of Life synagogue after the shooting there, driving an 18-wheeler, facing down Corn Pop and his gang, his grandpa playing football after working eight hours in the coal mines–all these memories of wondrous things that never happened.

    Their defining difference is that Forrest Gump was a sincere character, Biden is anything but.

  115. I missed the part where Emitt Till became the centre of the new US state religion, but I visited a park yesterday that had what archeologists say was a Spanish fort built by Negro slaves who escaped from bad British Slave Colony Georgia and into freedom loving Spanish Florida. I kid you not, the banner over the footbridge across the marsh to a point where there was literally nothing to see, aside from the marsh, was emblazoned with some nonsense about being the “Walkway to Freedom,” because everyone knows what good guys the Spaniards were, as they “freed the slaves.”

    Makes one wonder why the former slaves stuck around to build a fort the remains of which cannot even be seen, unlike the giant Castillo de San Marcos in St. Augustine. I guess they had better-quality workers there.

    Oh, and Native Americans helped build it to. The slant of all the signage was essentially, “Englishmen bad, Spaniards OK.”

  116. @nebulafox
    Have you ever heard of Mary Turner? She was a 21 year old pregnant woman who was lynched in May 1918 in Georgia. Lynched doesn't really sum up what actually happened: she was hung from a tree upside down and had her belly slit open with a knife. Her *eight month old* (parents will understand what this means, and how absolutely horrific this is) fetus fell out. This is the kind of thing we associate with soldiers from our worst foreign enemies, or long gone Mongol hordes. But it happened. One of the mob crushed the baby's head with his heel. This took place before she actually died. I think we can all agree it doesn't get more sickening than forcing an expecting mother to watch her child spill out of her womb and be murdered before she herself is. There is something primordial, something savage about that particular crime, something that's only driven by a deep desire to exterminate.

    What was her "crime"? Threatening to have members of the mob that had just lynched her husband the previous day, for a murder which he was innocent of, arrested. Icing on the cake is unlike Till, nobody ever was charged for her death, and until the 2000s, she didn't even get a proper gravestone. Not a memorial: just a gravestone. You don't have to be sympathetic to black people to find this story disgusting, horrific, shameful. Just having a basic conscience should do the trick.

    Yet Turner is not remembered, unlike Till. Why is that? Simple: Turner's murder is less politically useful, less politically relevant for our gerotoncracy. Till's murder took place in the 1950s, when social attitudes had vastly shifted, TV was a thing, and disgust over what happened catalyzed the CR movement. And since we have a gerontocracy that wants to wax nostagic about 1968 while the nation rots, this is what we get. Not to suggest that Till remotely deserved what he got, of course, or that his killers deserve any sympathy-but he was a teenage boy who was being a bit obnoxious, whereas Turner was someone trying to actually get legal justice for her murdered husband in an era where prevailing attitudes toward black people were far more barbaric than in the 1950s. I think if you really want to look for a "hero" who paid the price, Turner fits the bill more. Yet she's ignored. Because she's not tied into the personal memories of our elite.

    This is About Them and their emotional fixations. Make no mistake.

    Replies: @Mike Tre, @Buffalo Joe, @nebulafox, @usNthem, @Paperback Writer, @Colin Wright

    Out of curiosity, I took a look at a couple of Georgia newspapers from the time to see how it was reported. One simply mentioned that among others, a negro female had been hung. The other included much more detail, in that a Mary Turner had complained about her husband being wrongfully killed the day before. Apparently, the citizenry didn’t take too kindly to those comments and served her the same. The newspaper condemned the affair. Noteworthy, there was no mention of the additional barbaric act that we see today in Wikipedia. I’m not saying it didn’t happen, but even 104 years ago, I find it hard to believe something like that wouldn’t have been widely reported. Maybe it was elsewhere. But it’s hardly a stretch to think that in the hyper-racialized environment in which we live today, such a lynching might perhaps be grotesquely sensationalized.
    Chroniclingamerica.org

  117. @bomag
    @Dieter Kief


    ...insisted on an open casket to demonstrate the brutality
     
    Narrative building by media manipulation. I don't see many victims of Black crime on display with the purpose of punishing a people.

    [harsh fact that black people do not perform that good on average]
     
    We're in the middle of a grand contract where we give Blacks full access and a hand up; in return they will give equal performance. It is not working out so well. We're waiting for the contract to run out so we can craft a new arrangement.

    Replies: @Dieter Kief

    We’re in the middle of a grand contract where we give Blacks full access and a hand up; in return they will give equal performance. It is not working out so well. We’re waiting for the contract to run out so we can craft a new arrangement.

    Tht sounds – cool? A tad bitter? Harsh. Grim?

    Ok.

    But what I sense is going on here is not cool, but rather simmering hot and – confused. I sense an awful lot of confusion here and – tension (I think of George Floyd – I felt right away (and wrote about it a lot in June 2020) that this was going to get big – if not huge. And it did. Now I think of Derek Chauvin.
    But at the same time I think of Detroit. Or Ferguson…
    Maybeva beginning of sorts would be to acknowledge the problem: – That there is a visible and fairly big group of – on average – underperformers.

    • Replies: @bomag
    @Dieter Kief


    ...a beginning of sorts would be to acknowledge the problem: – That there is a visible and fairly big group of – on average – underperformers.
     
    Plenty of acknowledgement over the years. The "everybody is above average" crowd has been able to marginalize them.

    Replies: @Dieter Kief

  118. @SafeNow
    https://hips.hearstapps.com/esq.h-cdn.co/assets/cm/15/07/54da5fbddff5f_-_01-larry-skutnik-reagan-012610-lg.jpg

    Speaking of medals, on today’s date in 1982, Lenny Skutnick plunged into the icy Potomac and swam out to rescue one of the few survivors of the Air Florida crash. The Coast Guard issued its Gold Lifesaving Medal. They don’t give out very many of those, maybe one every few years. Some are posthumous. Reagan honored the nerdy, droopy-mustachioed budget-office employee a few weeks later at the State of the Union. Lenny was the first SOTU honoree.

    Tirado was about to drown. Dozens of first responders stood by on the banks of the river. It was only a short swim, but the water temperature was 33 degrees, and they all stood by. It was impossible to launch a raft because of the ice floes. The victim could not grasp a helicopter rope, because her hands had gone numb. Lenny could not just stand by. A very good man, deserving of our admiration and respect.

    Replies: @Inquiring Mind, @S. Anonyia, @Jim Don Bob, @Johann Ricke

    I was watching TV that afternoon when they cut to the crash scene and I remember thinking to myself, “How come all these search and rescue guys are standing around with their thumbs in their butts watching people drown?”, and then Lenny jumped it. You have less than 5 minutes in water that cold.

  119. @Polistra
    @Jack D

    Good thing for your "argument" that no one ever, ever mentions the 'holocaust'. You are an endless, broken record.

    Replies: @Jack D, @Johann Ricke

    If the Holocaust involved the death of less than 35 people then you would have a good case.

  120. @Jack D
    @Buzz Mohawk

    I'm in favor of consistency here. The US Congress seems to think that the Emmett Till affair is not settled but that the USS Liberty incident IS settled. The Men of Unz apparently would prefer the opposite. Although there is more reason for considering the Emmett Till affair to be unfinished business, my position is that both of these matters should be considered "settled" and, while they should be mentioned in the history books, neither event is in need of any further medal awards.

    Replies: @Art Deco

    Although there is more reason for considering the Emmett Till affair to be unfinished business,

    Not really. The only parties to the dispute still alive are some juvenile witnesses (now septuagenarians) and Carolyn Bryant, who is 88 years old, whose culpability was uncertain at the time, and who has lived 60 years past any sensible statute of limitations for any offense she might have committed. It might be advisable for a researcher to interview any bystanders left and memorialize their retrospective accounts. These are matters for the archives. And it’s really local history, without much larger significance.

  121. @Polistra
    @Jack D

    Good thing for your "argument" that no one ever, ever mentions the 'holocaust'. You are an endless, broken record.

    Replies: @Jack D, @Johann Ricke

    Good thing for your “argument” that no one ever, ever mentions the ‘holocaust’. You are an endless, broken record.

    If half of the white gentile population had been butchered by Jews, you’d have a good case for never ceasing to bring the atrocity up at every opportunity. The Liberty incident involved friendly fire in the midst of a war in which defeat for Israel would have meant the butchery of its Jewish population. In the modern era, Muslims haven’t been shy about slaughtering Jews:

    Arab youths began the riots by hurling rocks at the yeshiva students as they walked by. That afternoon, student Shmuel Rosenholtz went to the yeshiva alone. Arab rioters broke into the building and killed him. Rosenholtz’s was but the first of dozens of murders.

    On Friday night, Rabbi Ya’acov Slonim’s son invited any Jews fearful of the worsening situation to stay in their family house. The rabbi was highly regarded in the community, and he kept a gun. Many of the Jews in the community took this offer for shelter. Unfortunately, many of these people were eventually murdered there.

    As early as 8:00 a.m. on Saturday morning – the Jewish Sabbath – Arabs began to gather en masse around the Jewish community. They came in mobs, armed with clubs, knives and axes. While the women and children threw stones, the men ransacked Jewish houses and destroyed Jewish property. With only a single police officer in all of Hebron, the Arabs were able to enter Jewish courtyards with literally no opposition.

    Rabbi Slonim, who had tried to shelter the Jews, was approached by the rioters and offered a deal. If all the Ashkenazi yeshiva students were given over to the Arabs, the rioters would spare the lives of the Sephardi community.

    Rabbi Slonim refused to turn over the students. The Arabs killed him on the spot.

    By the end of the massacre, 12 Sephardi Jews and 55 Ashkenazi Jews were murdered.

    Then, more generally, there was the way Turkish, Kurdish and other Muslims within the Ottoman Empire slaughtered “infidel” interlopers, with over a million dead non-Muslims at the end:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_genocide
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayfo
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_genocide

  122. @Buffalo Joe
    @Buzz Mohawk

    Buzz et al, I was born in 1946, so my grammar schooling was basically post WWII. The holocaust was fresh in the minds of all the GIs who liberated camps and came home to speak about it. But, when you think about it, look at what the Civil War did to our country. I think because we are exposed to so little of the CW in school that when we start to discover it later in life it becomes a minor obsession. Hence, the dozens of CW books on my shelf behind me. Most of us in the US can make a visit to a CW battle field in a one day car trip. If the holocaust wasn't pounded into us, my children included, it would fade away.

    Replies: @El Dato, @Art Deco, @Anonymous, @Brutusale

    If the holocaust wasn’t pounded into us, my children included, it would fade away.

    Well, yes, if the history of something isn’t taught, people generally do not learn it on their own.

    We haven’t had a boatload of wars of general mobilization in this country’s history, the sheer scale of the 2d world war dwarfs all the others, and an integral part of the discussion of it is the enemy diverting masses of men and materiel to slaughtering a seven-digit population of non-combatants. No clue why you object to lectures on the subject. It’s kinda important.

    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    @Art Deco

    Art, thank you for the reply. Not objecting to lectures on the inhumanity of the Holocaust, but why meh on Stalin's "holocausts' in the same time frame? The Civil War claimed the lives of more US servicemen then our other war actions combined. Ok, we good. Stay save.

    Replies: @Art Deco

  123. @Jack D
    @Buzz Mohawk

    Arguably, Till is emblematic of America's systemic racism, which (arguably) exists to this very day. A white man (according to some accounts) racistly ran over and shot an innocent black man just this week.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2022/01/11/jason-walker-/

    The Liberty incident was a fog of war type incident. Even US troops have friendly fire incidents where they fire on their own troops (or shoot down Iranian civilian passenger airliners and kill 290 people). Israel apologized for the attack. Both the Israeli and U.S. governments conducted inquiries and issued reports that concluded the attack was a mistake due to Israeli confusion about the ship's identity and the Israeli government paid compensation to the US and to the families of the victims. It did not have any long term lasting impact on US-Israeli relations and no more incidents of this kind have occurred. So bringing it up repeatedly has no purpose other than to stir up hatred.

    And as I mentioned, many Unz kvetchers wish that we wouldn't hear any more about Till. If you wish this, it ill behooves you to bring up other incidents that should also be dead letters now.

    Replies: @Mr. Anon, @El Dato, @Professional Slav, @Hibernian

    You’re usually a good poster, so it’s surprising seeing you unable to put tribalism aside and look at the USS Liberty incident objectively even though it’s off-topic.
    Everyone on board from the American side called all those “inquiries” complete shams.

    • Thanks: Buzz Mohawk
    • Replies: @Art Deco
    @Professional Slav

    and look at the USS Liberty incident objectively

    I've looked at it objectively. It was an accident. People like Donald Neff had to manufacture in their heads fictional war crimes to divine a motive.

  124. Anonymous[756] • Disclaimer says:
    @Buffalo Joe
    @Buzz Mohawk

    Buzz et al, I was born in 1946, so my grammar schooling was basically post WWII. The holocaust was fresh in the minds of all the GIs who liberated camps and came home to speak about it. But, when you think about it, look at what the Civil War did to our country. I think because we are exposed to so little of the CW in school that when we start to discover it later in life it becomes a minor obsession. Hence, the dozens of CW books on my shelf behind me. Most of us in the US can make a visit to a CW battle field in a one day car trip. If the holocaust wasn't pounded into us, my children included, it would fade away.

    Replies: @El Dato, @Art Deco, @Anonymous, @Brutusale

    Buzz et al, I was born in 1946, so my grammar schooling was basically post WWII. The holocaust was fresh in the minds of all the GIs who liberated camps and came home to speak about it.

    None of the GIs who “liberated the camps” witnessed “the Holocaust.”

    Every single alleged “death camp” was located after the defeat of Germany in Soviet territory, oddly enough.

  125. @Buzz Mohawk
    @Reg Cæsar

    Biden is no Chance the Gardener, and he is no Forrest Gump. He is an aging political crook with none of the truth or grace of those characters. Please.

    Nor is he Zelig, a character who comically just happened to be everywhere. Joe Biden of Delaware was everywhere because he was working as a political whore from a tiny state.

    A state where you incorporate because of the tax advantages. There is no other reason to be there. It is the ass end of New Jersey.

    Have you ever driven through Delaware? You might have missed it. It's kind of like passing a parking lot next to a field.

    Replies: @Jim Don Bob, @Etruscan Film Star

    Delaware north of Wilmington around Route 52 as it seques into SE Pennsylvania is beautiful hilly country with more than a few splendid estates some built by the duPonts. I know a family who bought one in the 70s – the drawers in the master bedroom were lined with silk among other lovely things.

    But yeah, Delaware south of the canal is basically as appealing as Arkansas west of Memphis on I-40 towards Little Rock.

    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
    @Jim Don Bob

    Thank you for your reply. What it essentially shows, with all its explanations, is that basically Delaware sucks.

    Any other state worth its salt would not need such an elaborate explanation. Delaware is the runt end of New Jersey, and people like Joe Biden thrive in such places. He would never have been a senator or a figure of any national significance if he had not come from The Great State of Delaware.

    Replies: @Alden

    , @rebel yell
    @Jim Don Bob


    But yeah, Delaware south of the canal is basically as appealing as Arkansas west of Memphis on I-40 towards Little Rock.
     
    Hey Pal - eastern Arkansas is great if you live there. All the fishing, duck hunting and deer hunting you could want. Rich bottomland for farming, big beautiful old oak and cypress trees. Small towns with majestic county courthouses. A great place for middle class living. The only downside are the blacks, but a few counties in the delta, including the one where I grew up, are all white.
    Though I agree if you are just passing through all you will see is a lot of empty flat land and greasy truck stops.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @Jim Don Bob

    , @PiltdownMan
    @Jim Don Bob


    Delaware north of Wilmington around Route 52 as it seques into SE Pennsylvania is beautiful hilly country with more than a few splendid estates some built by the duPonts.
     
    Yes, the Delaware part of the Brandywine Valley around Route 52 (which extends into Pennsylvania) is scenic.

    https://delawaregreenways.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/BVNSB_top_lg.jpg

    , @Jack D
    @Jim Don Bob

    Winterthur is worth a visit. One of the DuPonts had a hobby of collecting not only early American furniture (which is now incredibly valuable ) but also complete interiors of rooms from early American houses which he had dismantled and installed in his house - the floors, the plaster, the fire place and mantle pieces and trim, etc. The grounds are also spectacular.

    But, to give others and idea, the "nice" part above the canal extends maybe 20 miles to the PA border (and included maybe half of that area is Wilmington which is mostly a blak slum and a grimy industrial and port section ) and the flat dull and smelly (due to all the chicken farms) rural section below the canal goes on for another 75 miles. The usual electoral divisions apply - the small urbanized section votes mostly Democrat and the rural areas vote Republican but there are a lot more Corn Pops than corn farmers.

  126. What is the waiting period to canonize Darell Brooks, author of the Waukesha massacre?

  127. @Jonathan Mason
    @Reg Cæsar

    He didn't kill her or rape her, and the abduction and killing of Emmett Till was not an act of passion. It was premeditated and it was a conspiracy.

    The trial was held at a time when jurors could still drink beer when on jury duty, and jurors later admitted that they believed the accused were guilty, but voted to find not guilty, because they did not think that the punishment fit the relatively minor crime of offing a negro kid.

    Emmett Till may have been no saint, but his name now stands as a symbol for all of this, and a celebration of the fact that the Civil War society finally died out about 100 years after that war.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Reg Cæsar

    He didn’t kill her or rape her, and the abduction and killing of Emmett Till was not an act of passion. It was premeditated and it was a conspiracy.

    They did not plan to kill him.

  128. @Art Deco
    @Buffalo Joe

    If the holocaust wasn’t pounded into us, my children included, it would fade away.

    Well, yes, if the history of something isn't taught, people generally do not learn it on their own.

    We haven't had a boatload of wars of general mobilization in this country's history, the sheer scale of the 2d world war dwarfs all the others, and an integral part of the discussion of it is the enemy diverting masses of men and materiel to slaughtering a seven-digit population of non-combatants. No clue why you object to lectures on the subject. It's kinda important.

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe

    Art, thank you for the reply. Not objecting to lectures on the inhumanity of the Holocaust, but why meh on Stalin’s “holocausts’ in the same time frame? The Civil War claimed the lives of more US servicemen then our other war actions combined. Ok, we good. Stay save.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    @Buffalo Joe

    I was in junior high and high school a long time ago. I'm not sure historians like Robert Conquest and Roy Medvedev had yet put a number on the death toll of Stalin and Lenin's grand slaughter. Some of Solzhynitsyn's work was appearing in translation, but you're talking about English teachers who were in school ca. 1958 for whom Anne Frank was familiar and Solzhynitsyn was not. History teachers I knew tended to run out of time somewhere in the middle of the twentieth century, so the Cold War received little or no attention and WWii was at the end of the line in June. This was more pronounced in European history classes than American history classes as European history starts with the Carolingians. The American history classes I had dealt with the peri-bellum period in considerable detail.

  129. @nebulafox
    Have you ever heard of Mary Turner? She was a 21 year old pregnant woman who was lynched in May 1918 in Georgia. Lynched doesn't really sum up what actually happened: she was hung from a tree upside down and had her belly slit open with a knife. Her *eight month old* (parents will understand what this means, and how absolutely horrific this is) fetus fell out. This is the kind of thing we associate with soldiers from our worst foreign enemies, or long gone Mongol hordes. But it happened. One of the mob crushed the baby's head with his heel. This took place before she actually died. I think we can all agree it doesn't get more sickening than forcing an expecting mother to watch her child spill out of her womb and be murdered before she herself is. There is something primordial, something savage about that particular crime, something that's only driven by a deep desire to exterminate.

    What was her "crime"? Threatening to have members of the mob that had just lynched her husband the previous day, for a murder which he was innocent of, arrested. Icing on the cake is unlike Till, nobody ever was charged for her death, and until the 2000s, she didn't even get a proper gravestone. Not a memorial: just a gravestone. You don't have to be sympathetic to black people to find this story disgusting, horrific, shameful. Just having a basic conscience should do the trick.

    Yet Turner is not remembered, unlike Till. Why is that? Simple: Turner's murder is less politically useful, less politically relevant for our gerotoncracy. Till's murder took place in the 1950s, when social attitudes had vastly shifted, TV was a thing, and disgust over what happened catalyzed the CR movement. And since we have a gerontocracy that wants to wax nostagic about 1968 while the nation rots, this is what we get. Not to suggest that Till remotely deserved what he got, of course, or that his killers deserve any sympathy-but he was a teenage boy who was being a bit obnoxious, whereas Turner was someone trying to actually get legal justice for her murdered husband in an era where prevailing attitudes toward black people were far more barbaric than in the 1950s. I think if you really want to look for a "hero" who paid the price, Turner fits the bill more. Yet she's ignored. Because she's not tied into the personal memories of our elite.

    This is About Them and their emotional fixations. Make no mistake.

    Replies: @Mike Tre, @Buffalo Joe, @nebulafox, @usNthem, @Paperback Writer, @Colin Wright

    What was the purpose of rehearsing this particularly gruesome piece of atrocity porn? What if Ibram Kendi and his crew tomorrow turn Mary Turner into their cause du jour? Will that be OK?

    • Replies: @James N. Kennett
    @Paperback Writer

    At least their hero(ine) would be blameless. There is a nasty element of "f*** you, whitey" whenever they celebrate a career criminal such as St George.

    Replies: @Paperback Writer

  130. @rebel yell
    @nebulafox

    Good comment Nebulafox. Being "selective" about which victims you concern yourself with, based on political ideology, is a clear sign that people don't really care about justice or human life at all. They only care about their ideology.
    To me this is a first step to breaking away from being a stereotypical liberal or conservative. If your real interest is in safeguarding human life and promoting what is best in human life, and in honest thinking, then you become critical of many of the accepted opinions on left and right. Most people don't care enough about human life or about honest thinking to open that can of worms.
    Of course, on a basic level we are all "selective" about who we care for - family first, then our own people over out-group people, and this is all well and good. But people who deny or ignore murders that are relevant to a debate, just to score debate points, have no character.

    Replies: @Paperback Writer

    ry,

    I don’t get why this is such a great comment. Everyone here is pretty smart; we all know that the Racial Grievance Industry picks and chooses. But let’s say someone in the RGI picks up on Mary Turner, which we all agree was a horrific crime. Would that be a good thing? Serious question. I’m not trying to pick fights. I’m genuinely baffled at nebulafox’s take here.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
    @Paperback Writer

    'I don’t get why this is such a great comment. Everyone here is pretty smart; we all know that the Racial Grievance Industry picks and chooses. But let’s say someone in the RGI picks up on Mary Turner, which we all agree was a horrific crime. Would that be a good thing? Serious question. I’m not trying to pick fights. I’m genuinely baffled at nebulafox’s take here.'

    I'll take my chances. Go for it.

    My betting is that upon examination, the story gets discredited. People in Georgia in 1918 weren't all Franciscan friars -- but they weren't Mongol raiders either. This didn't happen as described.

    Replies: @Paperback Writer, @usNthem

  131. @Paperback Writer
    @nebulafox

    What was the purpose of rehearsing this particularly gruesome piece of atrocity porn? What if Ibram Kendi and his crew tomorrow turn Mary Turner into their cause du jour? Will that be OK?

    Replies: @James N. Kennett

    At least their hero(ine) would be blameless. There is a nasty element of “f*** you, whitey” whenever they celebrate a career criminal such as St George.

    • Replies: @Paperback Writer
    @James N. Kennett

    So what?

    Should we be teaching her story in school in CRT study sessions?

    Replies: @James N. Kennett

  132. @Jim Don Bob
    @Buzz Mohawk

    Delaware north of Wilmington around Route 52 as it seques into SE Pennsylvania is beautiful hilly country with more than a few splendid estates some built by the duPonts. I know a family who bought one in the 70s - the drawers in the master bedroom were lined with silk among other lovely things.

    But yeah, Delaware south of the canal is basically as appealing as Arkansas west of Memphis on I-40 towards Little Rock.

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk, @rebel yell, @PiltdownMan, @Jack D

    Thank you for your reply. What it essentially shows, with all its explanations, is that basically Delaware sucks.

    Any other state worth its salt would not need such an elaborate explanation. Delaware is the runt end of New Jersey, and people like Joe Biden thrive in such places. He would never have been a senator or a figure of any national significance if he had not come from The Great State of Delaware.

    • Replies: @Alden
    @Buzz Mohawk

    Delaware should be called what it really is

    DuPontville.

  133. @Jack D
    @nebulafox

    The idea that what you write should be a sincere effort at "objectivity" even with respect to people you don't like or who belong to a different political faction is one of those tricky Western concepts that a lot of people even in the present don't really understand. Do Washington Post reporters write "objective" stories about Trump? Will histories of Trump written by "mainstream" liberal historians be objective?

    And read about Palin v. The New York Times to find out whether our elites have license to retrofit previous events to fit a constructive narrative. And they do so not innocently but while consciously intending to falsify.

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk, @nebulafox, @Paperback Writer

    How many non-Western historians have you read? (China and Japan both had historians. I don’t know about India. Islam had many.)

    Was Josephus objective?

    My point, obviously, is that “Western objectivity” is a recent invention. Probably it dates from 18th Century Germany and the higher criticism.

  134. @S. Anonyia
    @Buzz Mohawk

    What’s with the rainbow design? Is that new or just a long-standing tradition/coincidence?

    Replies: @CCZ

    “Why are the Kennedy Center Honors ribbons rainbow colored?”

    “Designed by Ivan Chermayeff (the visionary illustrator and graphic designer responsible for the logo of multinational brands like National Geographic or NBC), the rainbow-colored ribbon symbolizes the range and versatility of skills in the field of performing arts.”

    “As Ivan told The Washington Post Sunday in 2008, he didn’t intend for it to evoke the style of the rainbow flag, which was first designed by a gay activist named Gilbert Baker and debuted at the San Francisco Gay Freedom Day Parade celebration on June 25, 1978.”

    “That spectrum was what I had in mind in the first place, in that it’s a spectrum of many skills within the performing arts,” Ivan said. “Singing, dancing, and so on.”

    https://www.distractify.com/p/why-are-the-kennedy-center-honors-ribbons-rainbow

    • Thanks: S. Anonyia
  135. @Buffalo Joe
    @Buzz Mohawk

    Buzz et al, I was born in 1946, so my grammar schooling was basically post WWII. The holocaust was fresh in the minds of all the GIs who liberated camps and came home to speak about it. But, when you think about it, look at what the Civil War did to our country. I think because we are exposed to so little of the CW in school that when we start to discover it later in life it becomes a minor obsession. Hence, the dozens of CW books on my shelf behind me. Most of us in the US can make a visit to a CW battle field in a one day car trip. If the holocaust wasn't pounded into us, my children included, it would fade away.

    Replies: @El Dato, @Art Deco, @Anonymous, @Brutusale

    I guess that was one of the upsides of going to Catholic schools. We spend far more time on the Civil War. Buzz, about the same time you were playing Otto Frank I was playing Preston Brooks in history class, beating my buddy with a cardboard cane. Fun fact: this friend and I used to play Little League baseball behind the Charles Sumner Junior High.

    College was another story. I had to sit through Night and Fog twice!

  136. @Jim Don Bob
    @Buzz Mohawk

    Delaware north of Wilmington around Route 52 as it seques into SE Pennsylvania is beautiful hilly country with more than a few splendid estates some built by the duPonts. I know a family who bought one in the 70s - the drawers in the master bedroom were lined with silk among other lovely things.

    But yeah, Delaware south of the canal is basically as appealing as Arkansas west of Memphis on I-40 towards Little Rock.

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk, @rebel yell, @PiltdownMan, @Jack D

    But yeah, Delaware south of the canal is basically as appealing as Arkansas west of Memphis on I-40 towards Little Rock.

    Hey Pal – eastern Arkansas is great if you live there. All the fishing, duck hunting and deer hunting you could want. Rich bottomland for farming, big beautiful old oak and cypress trees. Small towns with majestic county courthouses. A great place for middle class living. The only downside are the blacks, but a few counties in the delta, including the one where I grew up, are all white.
    Though I agree if you are just passing through all you will see is a lot of empty flat land and greasy truck stops.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @rebel yell


    Though I agree if you are just passing through all you will see is a lot of empty flat land and greasy truck stops.
     
    In Delaware, it's factory chicken farms. A lot of us can remember the TV ads of Frank Perdue, who resembled his product.


    https://corporate.perduefarms.com/media/1101/frank.jpg
    , @Jim Don Bob
    @rebel yell


    Though I agree if you are just passing through all you will see is a lot of empty flat land and greasy truck stops.
     
    No offense meant. I-40 to Little Rock and then on to Texarkana is indeed my only experience with Arkansas. The last time was in July with my two nieces. It was 100+ outside and my poor Honda's AC was having a hard time.
  137. @rebel yell
    @nebulafox

    Worth noting that Thucydides was remarkably objective about the war with Sparta, especially considering that it was in his lifetime and his side lost. Reading his account, one trusts both his judgment and his factual claims, something that cannot be said about our current paper of record, the NYT.

    Replies: @nebulafox

    Thucydides had his biases-how could he not have, he was a direct participant with alternating relationships with the prominent characters in Athens-but I tend to lean more toward reliability than not.

    That being said, he was still a product of the classical world…

    “Insofar as these facts involve what the various participants said both before and during the actual conflict, recalling the exact words was difficult for me regarding speeches I heard myself and for my informants about speeches elsewhere; in the way I thought each would have said what was especially required in the given situation, I have stated accordingly, with the closest possible fidelity on my part to the overall sense of what was actually said.

    About the actions of the war, however, I considered it my responsibility to write neither as I learned from the chance informant nor according to my own opinion, but after examining what I witnessed myself and what I learned from others, with the utmost possible accuracy in each case. Finding out the facts involved great effort, because eye-witnesses did not report the same specific events in the same way, but according to individual partisanship or ability to remember. And the results, by avoiding patriotic storytelling, will perhaps be less enjoyable for listening. Yet if they are judged useful by any who wish to look at the plain truth about both past events and those that at some future time, in accordance with human nature, will recur in similar or comparable ways, that will suffice. It is a possession for all time, not a competition piece to be heard for the moment, that has been composed.”

    I’m not saying don’t believe Thucydides. I’m saying that he still wasn’t a modern historian, both in terms of how he viewed the world (emphasis on the character of the citizenry of Athens, especially compared to Sparta, not material stuff) and in terms of sources.

    (Also, more trustworthy than the NYT? Damn, dude, damning with faint praise. 🙂 )

    • Thanks: rebel yell
  138. @Professional Slav
    @Jack D

    You're usually a good poster, so it's surprising seeing you unable to put tribalism aside and look at the USS Liberty incident objectively even though it's off-topic.
    Everyone on board from the American side called all those "inquiries" complete shams.

    Replies: @Art Deco

    and look at the USS Liberty incident objectively

    I’ve looked at it objectively. It was an accident. People like Donald Neff had to manufacture in their heads fictional war crimes to divine a motive.

    • Thanks: Jack D
  139. https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-2005-09-25-0509250486-story.html
    A hidden memorial to the worst aspects of our Jim Crow Army

    I found Louis Till’s grave in France, in a small plot of land outside the official grounds of the Oise-Aisne World War I American cemetery. In what is known as “Plot E” there are 96 markers, marble squares with numbers and no names. Eighty of these graves belong to African-American soldiers, all of them tried and convicted in U.S. Army courts-martial of crimes of rape and murder. That means that 83 percent of the men executed in Europe, North Africa and the Mediterranean Theaters of Operation were African-Americans, in an Army that was only 8.5 percent black.

    Black Americans: overachieving in violent crime at home and abroad, during peacetime and during wartime. You’ve got to hand it to their constancy of character.

    • LOL: Kylie
    • Replies: @Alden
    @Don Unf

    Thank you. Louis Till was convicted by the US Army of 1 rape and 1 rape murder. Executed for the murder. They really went on a rape rampage in northwest France on the channel after D Day.

    Must have kept the abortionists busy for a while. Thank God for them. Genetics doncha know. As well as trying to raise a vicious brat.

    Charles’s Manson’s father was named Colonel Scott. First name Colonel, not a military title. An itinerant restaurant worker. A light skinned black man.

  140. @Buffalo Joe
    @Art Deco

    Art, thank you for the reply. Not objecting to lectures on the inhumanity of the Holocaust, but why meh on Stalin's "holocausts' in the same time frame? The Civil War claimed the lives of more US servicemen then our other war actions combined. Ok, we good. Stay save.

    Replies: @Art Deco

    I was in junior high and high school a long time ago. I’m not sure historians like Robert Conquest and Roy Medvedev had yet put a number on the death toll of Stalin and Lenin’s grand slaughter. Some of Solzhynitsyn’s work was appearing in translation, but you’re talking about English teachers who were in school ca. 1958 for whom Anne Frank was familiar and Solzhynitsyn was not. History teachers I knew tended to run out of time somewhere in the middle of the twentieth century, so the Cold War received little or no attention and WWii was at the end of the line in June. This was more pronounced in European history classes than American history classes as European history starts with the Carolingians. The American history classes I had dealt with the peri-bellum period in considerable detail.

  141. @nebulafox
    Have you ever heard of Mary Turner? She was a 21 year old pregnant woman who was lynched in May 1918 in Georgia. Lynched doesn't really sum up what actually happened: she was hung from a tree upside down and had her belly slit open with a knife. Her *eight month old* (parents will understand what this means, and how absolutely horrific this is) fetus fell out. This is the kind of thing we associate with soldiers from our worst foreign enemies, or long gone Mongol hordes. But it happened. One of the mob crushed the baby's head with his heel. This took place before she actually died. I think we can all agree it doesn't get more sickening than forcing an expecting mother to watch her child spill out of her womb and be murdered before she herself is. There is something primordial, something savage about that particular crime, something that's only driven by a deep desire to exterminate.

    What was her "crime"? Threatening to have members of the mob that had just lynched her husband the previous day, for a murder which he was innocent of, arrested. Icing on the cake is unlike Till, nobody ever was charged for her death, and until the 2000s, she didn't even get a proper gravestone. Not a memorial: just a gravestone. You don't have to be sympathetic to black people to find this story disgusting, horrific, shameful. Just having a basic conscience should do the trick.

    Yet Turner is not remembered, unlike Till. Why is that? Simple: Turner's murder is less politically useful, less politically relevant for our gerotoncracy. Till's murder took place in the 1950s, when social attitudes had vastly shifted, TV was a thing, and disgust over what happened catalyzed the CR movement. And since we have a gerontocracy that wants to wax nostagic about 1968 while the nation rots, this is what we get. Not to suggest that Till remotely deserved what he got, of course, or that his killers deserve any sympathy-but he was a teenage boy who was being a bit obnoxious, whereas Turner was someone trying to actually get legal justice for her murdered husband in an era where prevailing attitudes toward black people were far more barbaric than in the 1950s. I think if you really want to look for a "hero" who paid the price, Turner fits the bill more. Yet she's ignored. Because she's not tied into the personal memories of our elite.

    This is About Them and their emotional fixations. Make no mistake.

    Replies: @Mike Tre, @Buffalo Joe, @nebulafox, @usNthem, @Paperback Writer, @Colin Wright

    ‘Have you ever heard of Mary Turner? She was a 21 year old pregnant woman who was lynched in May 1918 in Georgia. Lynched doesn’t really sum up what actually happened: she was hung from a tree upside down and had her belly slit open with a knife. Her *eight month old* (parents will understand what this means, and how absolutely horrific this is) fetus fell out. This is the kind of thing we associate with soldiers from our worst foreign enemies, or long gone Mongol hordes. But it happened…’

    And of course, exactly as described.

    I’m skeptical.

    • Agree: Alden
  142. @Paperback Writer
    @rebel yell

    ry,

    I don't get why this is such a great comment. Everyone here is pretty smart; we all know that the Racial Grievance Industry picks and chooses. But let's say someone in the RGI picks up on Mary Turner, which we all agree was a horrific crime. Would that be a good thing? Serious question. I'm not trying to pick fights. I'm genuinely baffled at nebulafox's take here.

    Replies: @Colin Wright

    ‘I don’t get why this is such a great comment. Everyone here is pretty smart; we all know that the Racial Grievance Industry picks and chooses. But let’s say someone in the RGI picks up on Mary Turner, which we all agree was a horrific crime. Would that be a good thing? Serious question. I’m not trying to pick fights. I’m genuinely baffled at nebulafox’s take here.’

    I’ll take my chances. Go for it.

    My betting is that upon examination, the story gets discredited. People in Georgia in 1918 weren’t all Franciscan friars — but they weren’t Mongol raiders either. This didn’t happen as described.

    • Replies: @Paperback Writer
    @Colin Wright

    It does sound like too much atrocity porn. Then again, it could be true - but that's not really my point.

    Nebulafox was saying, "There they go with that Emmett Till again. But here's a real atrocity. It just shows how politically motivated they are." As if I have to be told that, as if blacks are the only people in the world who have political motivations.

    So neb's point is, "I found a real one, focus on that."

    My point is we've fought two civil wars over race and we're onto a third. Can't we move on?

    , @usNthem
    @Colin Wright

    That’s my guess from looking at a couple of newspaper articles from the time regarding the incident.

  143. @Buzz Mohawk
    @nebulafox


    ... everybody knows that race relations in the US are a hot button topic...
     
    Who, exactly, decides what the "hot button" topics will be? Hmm?

    This is hilarious. I don't even have a big interest in this topic, but even I now can laugh about the pro-Israeli responses and Jewish responses to it.

    You guys are too funny.

    And why should you, dear commenter and your fellow, even suggest that the Emmet Till nonsense is relevant today because of a "hot button topic." That is ridiculous. According to your twisted, manipulative, Talmudic logic, we can welcome Emmet Till while ignoring all the dead sailors on the USS Liberty.


    The issue is “settled”, regardless of how deliberate the attack was.
     
    It seems that the Till case was also "settled," no? So where is your logic?

    There isn't any. You only twist it to serve your argument. Par for the course, eh?

    Replies: @Jack D, @nebulafox

    >You guys are too funny.

    Μήτι ἐγὼἸουδαῖός εἰμι? – John 18:35.

    >It seems that the Till case was also “settled,” no?

    Which one is more likely to be used in electoral propaganda next year? This isn’t science. Politics creates its own reality. Things are relevant as long as people care about them. Nobody cares about the Liberty. The Democrats care about Till, and have the institutional power to make that relevant.

  144. @Art Deco
    It's rather unedifying to see people on these boards attempt to make the case for kidnapping a 14 year old youth and beating him to death or make the case for holding said youth accountable for something done by the father he never met.

    That having been said, his mother was an ordinary person, as was he. His name was known because he was a crime victim. That gives you a sense of what our elites profess to value: victimization, provided the victim in question is one of the Mascots of the Anointed. Kitty Genovese was also an ordinary person.

    As for his assailants, they likely were white supremicists. They may also have worn size 11 shoes and chewed tobacco. These aren't what was salient about them. What was salient about them was that they were violent hot-heads of a rare sort. Also salient was that they were demented enough to brag about it to a magazine reporter. The last got them socially shunned to such a degree that they were constructively run out of town, because they could not make a living there anymore.

    Replies: @Alden, @Alden

    Mr. Bryant defended Mrs Bryant. And prevented further serious physical harassment rape attempts on her and other women by killing Till. Till was 14 about 5’8 160 pounds. Mrs Bryant was even smaller than I am, 5’2 about 105 pounds.

    No way a woman that size would be able to prevail in a physical struggle against a boy that size. Till didn’t back off until she managed to get hold of her gun. The Bryants often worked alone in a store frequented by blacks.

    The MEN OF UNZ are men. And none of you realized how suddenly strong you got about age 12 even before you started to grow. By 14 boys are much stronger than women and girls of the same size. And much much much stronger that girls and women 6 inches shorter and 55 pounds lighter.

    Ask sisters and mothers of 14 year old boys. Ask 15 year old sisters of 12 year old boys. Especially sisters of pestering 12 year old boys who like to wrestle.

    I object to the liberals introducing wolves and mountain lions into cattle and sheep grazing lands. I applaud every farmer that shoots a predator preying in his children or livestock. I applaud every man like Mr Bryant who makes sure a predator will never attack his wife again.

    And Mr Bryant did make sure predator Emmett Till never attacked a woman again. And by killing Till prevented some black on White rapes in the neighborhood For a while by punishing Till.

    I object to the black predators who prey on Whites. Especially black predators who prey on much smaller or older Whites. And the 5 on one beatings and robberies of 1 strong young White men by 5 strong young black men.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    @Alden

    Mr. Bryant defended Mrs Bryant.

    He did nothing of the kind. And she and his brother's wife decided not to mention it to their husbands. The kids let the cat out of the bag. There was a reason they didn't tell their husbands, which was evident in the coming days. They knew the men to whom they were married.

    I'm always amazed that the lot of you want to eat this sh!t sandwich. (Well, you don't amaze me in this respect).

  145. @Buzz Mohawk
    @Jim Don Bob

    Thank you for your reply. What it essentially shows, with all its explanations, is that basically Delaware sucks.

    Any other state worth its salt would not need such an elaborate explanation. Delaware is the runt end of New Jersey, and people like Joe Biden thrive in such places. He would never have been a senator or a figure of any national significance if he had not come from The Great State of Delaware.

    Replies: @Alden

    Delaware should be called what it really is

    DuPontville.

  146. @bomag
    Embarrassing is the word that comes to mind:

    )Black male killed with sexual context; gets award.

    )More Till news; too much is not enough.

    )The Stalinist clapping on racial matters continues; sanctioned by Congress.

    etc.

    Replies: @HammerJack, @HammerJack, @Etruscan Film Star

    The House version of the legislation is sponsored by Rep. Bobby Rush, D-Ill. He also has sponsored a bill to issue a commemorative postage stamp in honor of Mamie Till-Mobley. — NBC News

    A postage stamp? No! Postage stamps come and go and are quickly forgotten. These days they often “honor” pop stars and cartoon characters. That would demean Mamie’s memory.

    Let justice be done though the heavens fall! Nothing less than putting Mamie’s proud visage on currency will suffice. Silver dollar? Pfooey, who carries them except coin dealers. I expect a \$10 bill is probably the most used denomination of paper money (used to be a dollar bill, but that’s inflation for you). Our woke masters will get the most mileage from putting her on the sawbuck. Tea for the Tillermom!

    • Replies: @Che Blutarsky
    @Etruscan Film Star

    The country will never heal until Fort Bragg is renamed Fort Louis Till. It will be a commonly accepted fact in ten years that he was lynched as well - I've already read that on twitter dozens of times.

    And they not only lynched him, but even worse, they locked him up with Ezra Pound first.

  147. @Nicholas Stix
    @Hi There

    "The Story of Emmett Till: Facts vs. Racist Fairy Tales"
    https://nicholasstixuncensored.blogspot.com/2021/07/the-story-of-emmett-till-facts-vs.html

    Replies: @Hi There, @Ben tillman

    Good stuff, but please note a mistake to be corrected — the falsely accused Duke students played lacrosse, not soccer.

  148. @Jonathan Mason
    @Reg Cæsar

    He didn't kill her or rape her, and the abduction and killing of Emmett Till was not an act of passion. It was premeditated and it was a conspiracy.

    The trial was held at a time when jurors could still drink beer when on jury duty, and jurors later admitted that they believed the accused were guilty, but voted to find not guilty, because they did not think that the punishment fit the relatively minor crime of offing a negro kid.

    Emmett Till may have been no saint, but his name now stands as a symbol for all of this, and a celebration of the fact that the Civil War society finally died out about 100 years after that war.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Reg Cæsar

    …but voted to find not guilty, because they did not think that the punishment fit the relatively minor crime of offing a negro kid.

    That, not the actual murder, was what scandalized the country. This part is what’s glossed over today.

  149. @Buzz Mohawk
    @Reg Cæsar

    Biden is no Chance the Gardener, and he is no Forrest Gump. He is an aging political crook with none of the truth or grace of those characters. Please.

    Nor is he Zelig, a character who comically just happened to be everywhere. Joe Biden of Delaware was everywhere because he was working as a political whore from a tiny state.

    A state where you incorporate because of the tax advantages. There is no other reason to be there. It is the ass end of New Jersey.

    Have you ever driven through Delaware? You might have missed it. It's kind of like passing a parking lot next to a field.

    Replies: @Jim Don Bob, @Etruscan Film Star

    Have you ever driven through Delaware? You might have missed it. It’s kind of like passing a parking lot next to a field.

    I am not convinced Delaware exists. Ask someone where they are from. “I’m a Delawarean,” says no one ever.

  150. @Art Deco
    It's rather unedifying to see people on these boards attempt to make the case for kidnapping a 14 year old youth and beating him to death or make the case for holding said youth accountable for something done by the father he never met.

    That having been said, his mother was an ordinary person, as was he. His name was known because he was a crime victim. That gives you a sense of what our elites profess to value: victimization, provided the victim in question is one of the Mascots of the Anointed. Kitty Genovese was also an ordinary person.

    As for his assailants, they likely were white supremicists. They may also have worn size 11 shoes and chewed tobacco. These aren't what was salient about them. What was salient about them was that they were violent hot-heads of a rare sort. Also salient was that they were demented enough to brag about it to a magazine reporter. The last got them socially shunned to such a degree that they were constructively run out of town, because they could not make a living there anymore.

    Replies: @Alden, @Alden

    There were 3 assailants who killed Till. One was White, Bryant the husband of the woman Till tried to rape. The other 2 assailants were black employees of the Bryants

    I doubt you will find that 2 of the 3 killers were black on Wikipedia. The MEN OF UNZ the MEN OF UNZ and their 4th grade level Wikipedia “ research”.

    Considering average White IQ vs average black IQ, black crime rates vs White crime rates, black child abuse rates vs White child abuse rates, black driving offenses vs White driving offenses black behavior in school, the workplace, in public and at home vs White behavior in school the workplace in public and at home.

    Anyone but a pro black liberal must concede that Whites Hispanics Asians and all other races are supreme or superior to blacks.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    @Alden

    The other 2 assailants were black employees of the Bryants

    There were no other assailants. Till's family said they saw other people in the truck when Bryant / Milam arrived to kidnap ET. They've never been securely identified.

    Replies: @Alden

  151. @James N. Kennett
    @Paperback Writer

    At least their hero(ine) would be blameless. There is a nasty element of "f*** you, whitey" whenever they celebrate a career criminal such as St George.

    Replies: @Paperback Writer

    So what?

    Should we be teaching her story in school in CRT study sessions?

    • Replies: @James N. Kennett
    @Paperback Writer


    So what?

    Should we be teaching her story in school in CRT study sessions?
     
    Denial is both wrong and futile. Honesty is the best policy.

    Lynchings were a part of American history. Usually the victim did not deserve to die, and usually the perpetrators got away with their crime. America is not like that now: if a crime looks like a white-on-black extra-judicial execution, the killer will go to prison for decades or even life. And the total number lynched since the end of the Civil War is less than the number of blacks killed nowadays by other blacks in a single year.

    The sense of scale is important. Lynchings were a part of American history, but a small part, even if you were black. For a black American, the chance of being lynched in the early 20th Century was considerably less than the chance today of being killed by another black, or of dying in a road traffic accident.

    School pupils should learn about lynching, but with comparisons that allow them to judge the frequency of the crime, and without spending a disproportionate amount of time on the subject.

    Replies: @Anon, @Paperback Writer, @Colin Wright

  152. @El Dato
    @Jack D


    The Liberty incident was a fog of war type incident.
     
    Laughable. Ridiculous. Willfully doped up with Crimethougtine.

    https://www.unz.com/nfinkelstein/to-live-or-to-perish/

    North: What do you think happened to the USS Liberty?

    I corresponded with one of the surviving crew members, James Ennis, who wrote a book on the attack indicting Israel. His account was totally credible.

    For example, a 5-by-8-foot American flag hoisted on the Liberty was fluttering in the wind on a crystalline summer day. Ennis recalled that before the assault an Israeli pilot overhead was flying so low they even waved to each other. So how could Israeli pilots have missed the flag?

    It’s ingenious—or hilarious—how Oren explains away this inconvenient fact. He says, “But Israeli pilots were not looking for the Liberty, but rather for Egyptian submarines.” In other words, the pilots didn’t see what was staring them in the face above the water because they were in search of a vessel beneath the water. This explanation must have deeply impressed the Los Angeles Times, which awarded him the newspaper’s annual book prize in history.

    North: The reason for the attack?

    None of the standard explanations hold up. I have my own hunch but I readily admit it’s highly speculative and unorthodox.

    Weiss: The conventional theory is the Liberty had radio surveillance and knocking out the Liberty allowed Israel to continue the war another two days.

    It’s alleged that the Liberty had gotten wind of the fact that Israel was going to seize the Golan, so Israel attacked it. But this theory doesn’t hold up on close inspection.

    My own hypothesis is, this is Israel’s big moment, the climactic of the Jewish people, a collective paroxysm-cum-orgasm. All the armed services want to get a piece of the action. The air force, the army, the navy.

    The navy hadn’t yet seen real combat. As the war was winding down, they were probably anxious to be part of this glorious chapter. To play their part in the Jewish people’s revenge on the goyim.

    Remember, the Israelis don’t just hate Arabs. They’re in an eternal war with all the goyim. All the goyim wanted the Jews dead. Just read Daniel Goldhagen if you have any doubts. The Americans are goyim. They refused entry to Jews fleeing the Holocaust; they didn’t bomb the railway tracks to Auschwitz; they, too, wanted all the Jews dead. Now they’re butting into our war, dispatching a spy ship into our waters, trying to restrain us in our moment of glory. Fuck the Americans! Fuck the goyim! Long live the Jews!

    Besides the Israeli air assault on the USS Liberty, the Israeli navy torpedoed the vessel. It got to share in the mock heroics and avenge the millennial suffering of the Jews. Everyone got their 15 minutes of drawing blood, in memoriam of the Jewish martyrs.

    I am the first to admit gaps in my hypothesis but it probably gets closer to the truth than positing a rational motive.
     

    Replies: @Jack D

    Generally speaking Israelis love America. A lot more than the Arab do, that’s for sure. The happiest day of my father’s life was the day that the Americans liberated his camp.

  153. @rebel yell
    @Jim Don Bob


    But yeah, Delaware south of the canal is basically as appealing as Arkansas west of Memphis on I-40 towards Little Rock.
     
    Hey Pal - eastern Arkansas is great if you live there. All the fishing, duck hunting and deer hunting you could want. Rich bottomland for farming, big beautiful old oak and cypress trees. Small towns with majestic county courthouses. A great place for middle class living. The only downside are the blacks, but a few counties in the delta, including the one where I grew up, are all white.
    Though I agree if you are just passing through all you will see is a lot of empty flat land and greasy truck stops.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @Jim Don Bob

    Though I agree if you are just passing through all you will see is a lot of empty flat land and greasy truck stops.

    In Delaware, it’s factory chicken farms. A lot of us can remember the TV ads of Frank Perdue, who resembled his product.

  154. @Don Unf
    https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-2005-09-25-0509250486-story.html
    A hidden memorial to the worst aspects of our Jim Crow Army

    I found Louis Till's grave in France, in a small plot of land outside the official grounds of the Oise-Aisne World War I American cemetery. In what is known as "Plot E" there are 96 markers, marble squares with numbers and no names. Eighty of these graves belong to African-American soldiers, all of them tried and convicted in U.S. Army courts-martial of crimes of rape and murder. That means that 83 percent of the men executed in Europe, North Africa and the Mediterranean Theaters of Operation were African-Americans, in an Army that was only 8.5 percent black.
     
    Black Americans: overachieving in violent crime at home and abroad, during peacetime and during wartime. You've got to hand it to their constancy of character.

    Replies: @Alden

    Thank you. Louis Till was convicted by the US Army of 1 rape and 1 rape murder. Executed for the murder. They really went on a rape rampage in northwest France on the channel after D Day.

    Must have kept the abortionists busy for a while. Thank God for them. Genetics doncha know. As well as trying to raise a vicious brat.

    Charles’s Manson’s father was named Colonel Scott. First name Colonel, not a military title. An itinerant restaurant worker. A light skinned black man.

  155. @Alden
    @Art Deco

    Mr. Bryant defended Mrs Bryant. And prevented further serious physical harassment rape attempts on her and other women by killing Till. Till was 14 about 5’8 160 pounds. Mrs Bryant was even smaller than I am, 5’2 about 105 pounds.

    No way a woman that size would be able to prevail in a physical struggle against a boy that size. Till didn’t back off until she managed to get hold of her gun. The Bryants often worked alone in a store frequented by blacks.

    The MEN OF UNZ are men. And none of you realized how suddenly strong you got about age 12 even before you started to grow. By 14 boys are much stronger than women and girls of the same size. And much much much stronger that girls and women 6 inches shorter and 55 pounds lighter.

    Ask sisters and mothers of 14 year old boys. Ask 15 year old sisters of 12 year old boys. Especially sisters of pestering 12 year old boys who like to wrestle.

    I object to the liberals introducing wolves and mountain lions into cattle and sheep grazing lands. I applaud every farmer that shoots a predator preying in his children or livestock. I applaud every man like Mr Bryant who makes sure a predator will never attack his wife again.

    And Mr Bryant did make sure predator Emmett Till never attacked a woman again. And by killing Till prevented some black on White rapes in the neighborhood For a while by punishing Till.

    I object to the black predators who prey on Whites. Especially black predators who prey on much smaller or older Whites. And the 5 on one beatings and robberies of 1 strong young White men by 5 strong young black men.

    Replies: @Art Deco

    Mr. Bryant defended Mrs Bryant.

    He did nothing of the kind. And she and his brother’s wife decided not to mention it to their husbands. The kids let the cat out of the bag. There was a reason they didn’t tell their husbands, which was evident in the coming days. They knew the men to whom they were married.

    I’m always amazed that the lot of you want to eat this sh!t sandwich. (Well, you don’t amaze me in this respect).

  156. @Alden
    @Art Deco

    There were 3 assailants who killed Till. One was White, Bryant the husband of the woman Till tried to rape. The other 2 assailants were black employees of the Bryants

    I doubt you will find that 2 of the 3 killers were black on Wikipedia. The MEN OF UNZ the MEN OF UNZ and their 4th grade level Wikipedia “ research”.

    Considering average White IQ vs average black IQ, black crime rates vs White crime rates, black child abuse rates vs White child abuse rates, black driving offenses vs White driving offenses black behavior in school, the workplace, in public and at home vs White behavior in school the workplace in public and at home.

    Anyone but a pro black liberal must concede that Whites Hispanics Asians and all other races are supreme or superior to blacks.

    Replies: @Art Deco

    The other 2 assailants were black employees of the Bryants

    There were no other assailants. Till’s family said they saw other people in the truck when Bryant / Milam arrived to kidnap ET. They’ve never been securely identified.

    • Replies: @Alden
    @Art Deco

    I’m old enough to remember the newspaper and magazine articles and photos about the 2 black employees of the Bryant’s who helped beat and kill Till. I was only 7 or 8 but could read newspapers and magazines and see the photos of the 2 black men.

    And my parents, as people did in those days subscribed to 9 or 10 magazines including the current affairs magazines New Republic, Atlantic I remember very well.

    There’s also books written about the Till killing shortly after wards. They all feature shock and horror that the 2 blacks helped Bryant rid the community of a trouble making summer visitor.

    Get yourself a Friends of the Library card for a good university library and read the periodical archives. And see if you can find some books about the Till killing written shortly after it happened.

    The public libraries dumped so many pre 1980 books. But the university libraries have not.

    You should be embarrassed to cite internet lies. You should be embarrassed your only source of information is the internet.

  157. @Art Deco
    @Alden

    The other 2 assailants were black employees of the Bryants

    There were no other assailants. Till's family said they saw other people in the truck when Bryant / Milam arrived to kidnap ET. They've never been securely identified.

    Replies: @Alden

    I’m old enough to remember the newspaper and magazine articles and photos about the 2 black employees of the Bryant’s who helped beat and kill Till. I was only 7 or 8 but could read newspapers and magazines and see the photos of the 2 black men.

    And my parents, as people did in those days subscribed to 9 or 10 magazines including the current affairs magazines New Republic, Atlantic I remember very well.

    There’s also books written about the Till killing shortly after wards. They all feature shock and horror that the 2 blacks helped Bryant rid the community of a trouble making summer visitor.

    Get yourself a Friends of the Library card for a good university library and read the periodical archives. And see if you can find some books about the Till killing written shortly after it happened.

    The public libraries dumped so many pre 1980 books. But the university libraries have not.

    You should be embarrassed to cite internet lies. You should be embarrassed your only source of information is the internet.

  158. @Buzz Mohawk
    @kaganovitch

    It's true. In 1974 I played Otto Frank in a mandatory play recreating Anne Frank's Diary. That was for a junior high school "language arts" class. We read about and discussed the Holocaust. I have no memory whatsoever of any class covering the Civil War, at all, ever, in my school years.

    Then again, I dropped out as a junior, so maybe I missed something, but still, you would think by then it would have been covered. But, by God, I know all about Anne Frank and the Holocaust.

    Oh, and then on to college, finally, eventually for me. One class in my first semester had The Banality of Evil, by Hannah Arendt on the reading list. We covered it. I wrote about it on an exam. I got an "A."

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe, @huisache, @kaganovitch

    It’s true. In 1974 I played Otto Frank in a mandatory play recreating Anne Frank’s Diary. That was for a junior high school “language arts” class. We read about and discussed the Holocaust. I have no memory whatsoever of any class covering the Civil War, at all, ever, in my school years.

    It’s kind of ironic/funny. I grew up in Brooklyn in a %95 Jewish neighborhood and went to wall-to-wall Jewish schools and we never learned about the Holocaust in secular studies, whereas we learned much about the Civil War. On the other hand the overwhelming majority of the neighborhood were ‘griner’ or the children of those who had lived through the war in Europe so a Holocaust curriculum may have been viewed as ‘Coals to Newcastle’, so to speak.

    • Replies: @Paperback Writer
    @kaganovitch

    Same here. Never heard of "the Holocaust" till I was 11, and that was downstream of Eichmann a few years. Certainly never learned about it in school - and you know something, I'm happy for that. What would have been the purpose, and it would have been excruciating.

    We learned a fair amount about the Civil War. Not enough. Didn't do any military stuff because our teachers were literally a bunch of old ladies. We learned pitifully little about the American Revolution.

  159. @Etruscan Film Star
    @bomag


    The House version of the legislation is sponsored by Rep. Bobby Rush, D-Ill. He also has sponsored a bill to issue a commemorative postage stamp in honor of Mamie Till-Mobley. -- NBC News
     
    A postage stamp? No! Postage stamps come and go and are quickly forgotten. These days they often "honor" pop stars and cartoon characters. That would demean Mamie's memory.

    Let justice be done though the heavens fall! Nothing less than putting Mamie's proud visage on currency will suffice. Silver dollar? Pfooey, who carries them except coin dealers. I expect a $10 bill is probably the most used denomination of paper money (used to be a dollar bill, but that's inflation for you). Our woke masters will get the most mileage from putting her on the sawbuck. Tea for the Tillermom!

    Replies: @Che Blutarsky

    The country will never heal until Fort Bragg is renamed Fort Louis Till. It will be a commonly accepted fact in ten years that he was lynched as well – I’ve already read that on twitter dozens of times.

    And they not only lynched him, but even worse, they locked him up with Ezra Pound first.

  160. This afternoon, Thursday January 13, a black man walked into a furniture store in Los Angeles and shot and killed a young woman employee. Store on N. la Brea at the intersection with Beverly Blvd. White neighborhood. Prosperous neighborhood. Considered a safe neighborhood.

    Like Louis and Emmett Till, that black man should have never have been born.

  161. @Paperback Writer
    @James N. Kennett

    So what?

    Should we be teaching her story in school in CRT study sessions?

    Replies: @James N. Kennett

    So what?

    Should we be teaching her story in school in CRT study sessions?

    Denial is both wrong and futile. Honesty is the best policy.

    Lynchings were a part of American history. Usually the victim did not deserve to die, and usually the perpetrators got away with their crime. America is not like that now: if a crime looks like a white-on-black extra-judicial execution, the killer will go to prison for decades or even life. And the total number lynched since the end of the Civil War is less than the number of blacks killed nowadays by other blacks in a single year.

    The sense of scale is important. Lynchings were a part of American history, but a small part, even if you were black. For a black American, the chance of being lynched in the early 20th Century was considerably less than the chance today of being killed by another black, or of dying in a road traffic accident.

    School pupils should learn about lynching, but with comparisons that allow them to judge the frequency of the crime, and without spending a disproportionate amount of time on the subject.

    • Replies: @Anon
    @James N. Kennett


    School pupils should learn about lynching, but with comparisons that allow them to judge the frequency of the crime
     
    Was it a crime if the person was guilty?
    , @Paperback Writer
    @James N. Kennett


    Denial is both wrong and futile. Honesty is the best policy.

     

    I'm not the one who is saying that Emmett Till got what he deserved. What happened to him was a heinous crime, no excuses, no denial.

    My point, to repeat it ad nauseam, is why is nebulafox's comment so great? For the 4th time, he said, (paraphrasing): what's the fuss over Till? I have a real atrocity for you! And the people here nod their heads and agree with him.

    Maybe Kendi has a point?

    Replies: @Greta Handel

    , @Colin Wright
    @James N. Kennett

    '...Lynchings were a part of American history. Usually the victim did not deserve to die, and usually the perpetrators got away with their crime...'

    I'm skeptical of that. I imagine usually the victim was guilty of something heinous enough to move the community to collective outrage.

    'Usually' of course is an inadequate judicial standard -- and the collective outrage of the community a rather nebulous yardstick -- but at a guess, your average lynching victim more or less deserved it. Certainly that was the case with those instances I bothered to look up.

  162. @Jim Don Bob
    @Buzz Mohawk

    Delaware north of Wilmington around Route 52 as it seques into SE Pennsylvania is beautiful hilly country with more than a few splendid estates some built by the duPonts. I know a family who bought one in the 70s - the drawers in the master bedroom were lined with silk among other lovely things.

    But yeah, Delaware south of the canal is basically as appealing as Arkansas west of Memphis on I-40 towards Little Rock.

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk, @rebel yell, @PiltdownMan, @Jack D

    Delaware north of Wilmington around Route 52 as it seques into SE Pennsylvania is beautiful hilly country with more than a few splendid estates some built by the duPonts.

    Yes, the Delaware part of the Brandywine Valley around Route 52 (which extends into Pennsylvania) is scenic.

  163. @Art Deco
    Looking up the winners of the Congressional Gold Medal, I see it’s basically the legislative branch’s equivalent of the more famous Presidential Medal of Freedom, but rarer, more committee-like, and more boring,

    Both awards are silly. You can see that by looking at the roster of the recipients but also by reminding yourself that the recipients are being recognized not by their peers but by politicians. That might be appropriate were it an award given to politicians or an award given for some variant of good citizenship (emphasis on 'might'). Because politicians are with an exception here or there sh!tbags, any such award should be vetted by a jury of people selected at random from voting registers.

    Replies: @Joe Stalin, @The Germ Theory of Disease, @David In TN, @Paperback Writer

    “Because politicians are… sh!tbags, any such award should be vetted by a jury of people selected at random from voting registers.”

    I’ve got a simpler and funnier solution. Any such award should simply be selected and awarded by me. It stands to reason that everybody would be happier that way.

  164. @SafeNow
    https://hips.hearstapps.com/esq.h-cdn.co/assets/cm/15/07/54da5fbddff5f_-_01-larry-skutnik-reagan-012610-lg.jpg

    Speaking of medals, on today’s date in 1982, Lenny Skutnick plunged into the icy Potomac and swam out to rescue one of the few survivors of the Air Florida crash. The Coast Guard issued its Gold Lifesaving Medal. They don’t give out very many of those, maybe one every few years. Some are posthumous. Reagan honored the nerdy, droopy-mustachioed budget-office employee a few weeks later at the State of the Union. Lenny was the first SOTU honoree.

    Tirado was about to drown. Dozens of first responders stood by on the banks of the river. It was only a short swim, but the water temperature was 33 degrees, and they all stood by. It was impossible to launch a raft because of the ice floes. The victim could not grasp a helicopter rope, because her hands had gone numb. Lenny could not just stand by. A very good man, deserving of our admiration and respect.

    Replies: @Inquiring Mind, @S. Anonyia, @Jim Don Bob, @Johann Ricke

    Speaking of medals, on today’s date in 1982, Lenny Skutnick plunged into the icy Potomac and swam out to rescue one of the few survivors of the Air Florida crash.

    Maybe he drew inspiration from fellow MOT Mark Spitz. Anyhow, the lady he rescued had a rough go of it, understandably, given the circumstances:

    Priscilla Tirado, 43, was rescued by Lenny Skutnik. Her young husband, José, and their 2-month-old son were killed — the infant’s was the last body recovered, 11 days after the crash. Other survivors remember hearing her scream for someone to find her baby as they all bobbed in the water. She lives in Florida in the town where her parents lived — her father, who was her protector and spokesman, died in 1999. On Jan. 13, 1982, she was flying to Florida with her new family so her husband could take a job in the construction industry. In 20 years, she has said only a few sentences to the press about the accident. Five years after the crash she told a reporter: ”It’s still hard for me. Sometimes I have my days. I had a good life with José. He was real good for me.” A decade after the crash, her father told The Washington Post, ”After 10 years, we’re beginning to wonder if this will ever work itself out.” She declined to be interviewed for this story.

  165. @Art Deco
    Looking up the winners of the Congressional Gold Medal, I see it’s basically the legislative branch’s equivalent of the more famous Presidential Medal of Freedom, but rarer, more committee-like, and more boring,

    Both awards are silly. You can see that by looking at the roster of the recipients but also by reminding yourself that the recipients are being recognized not by their peers but by politicians. That might be appropriate were it an award given to politicians or an award given for some variant of good citizenship (emphasis on 'might'). Because politicians are with an exception here or there sh!tbags, any such award should be vetted by a jury of people selected at random from voting registers.

    Replies: @Joe Stalin, @The Germ Theory of Disease, @David In TN, @Paperback Writer

    The Presidential Medal of Freedom was introduced in 1963 by JFK. It was from the start a kind of political-publicity thing.

  166. Watch this documentary about the IDF attack on the USS Liberty and decide for yourself.

    https://www.sacrificingliberty.com/

    It’s worth buying the DVD set. I did and I watched it. All four professionally researched and produced DVDs that comprise the documentary.

    If you want to be informed about this matter, watch this documentary yourself.

    Only those without any credibility or decency could claim that the IDF attack on the USS Liberty was an “accident”.

  167. Why is congress granting medals only to Till and his mother? Why stop at just them? Why not issue a medal of honor to every black resident of the United States, citizen and non-citizen alike? A Congressional medal of honor issued for being black?

    If the Dems thought it would help them hold the House and Senate in 2022, you know they would do it. Throw in \$20 gift cards to every medal recipient for good measure.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Kolya Krassotkin

    Sounds likely.

  168. @Kolya Krassotkin
    Why is congress granting medals only to Till and his mother? Why stop at just them? Why not issue a medal of honor to every black resident of the United States, citizen and non-citizen alike? A Congressional medal of honor issued for being black?

    If the Dems thought it would help them hold the House and Senate in 2022, you know they would do it. Throw in $20 gift cards to every medal recipient for good measure.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    Sounds likely.

  169. @James N. Kennett
    @Paperback Writer


    So what?

    Should we be teaching her story in school in CRT study sessions?
     
    Denial is both wrong and futile. Honesty is the best policy.

    Lynchings were a part of American history. Usually the victim did not deserve to die, and usually the perpetrators got away with their crime. America is not like that now: if a crime looks like a white-on-black extra-judicial execution, the killer will go to prison for decades or even life. And the total number lynched since the end of the Civil War is less than the number of blacks killed nowadays by other blacks in a single year.

    The sense of scale is important. Lynchings were a part of American history, but a small part, even if you were black. For a black American, the chance of being lynched in the early 20th Century was considerably less than the chance today of being killed by another black, or of dying in a road traffic accident.

    School pupils should learn about lynching, but with comparisons that allow them to judge the frequency of the crime, and without spending a disproportionate amount of time on the subject.

    Replies: @Anon, @Paperback Writer, @Colin Wright

    School pupils should learn about lynching, but with comparisons that allow them to judge the frequency of the crime

    Was it a crime if the person was guilty?

  170. @Colin Wright
    @Paperback Writer

    'I don’t get why this is such a great comment. Everyone here is pretty smart; we all know that the Racial Grievance Industry picks and chooses. But let’s say someone in the RGI picks up on Mary Turner, which we all agree was a horrific crime. Would that be a good thing? Serious question. I’m not trying to pick fights. I’m genuinely baffled at nebulafox’s take here.'

    I'll take my chances. Go for it.

    My betting is that upon examination, the story gets discredited. People in Georgia in 1918 weren't all Franciscan friars -- but they weren't Mongol raiders either. This didn't happen as described.

    Replies: @Paperback Writer, @usNthem

    It does sound like too much atrocity porn. Then again, it could be true – but that’s not really my point.

    Nebulafox was saying, “There they go with that Emmett Till again. But here’s a real atrocity. It just shows how politically motivated they are.” As if I have to be told that, as if blacks are the only people in the world who have political motivations.

    So neb’s point is, “I found a real one, focus on that.”

    My point is we’ve fought two civil wars over race and we’re onto a third. Can’t we move on?

  171. @James N. Kennett
    @Paperback Writer


    So what?

    Should we be teaching her story in school in CRT study sessions?
     
    Denial is both wrong and futile. Honesty is the best policy.

    Lynchings were a part of American history. Usually the victim did not deserve to die, and usually the perpetrators got away with their crime. America is not like that now: if a crime looks like a white-on-black extra-judicial execution, the killer will go to prison for decades or even life. And the total number lynched since the end of the Civil War is less than the number of blacks killed nowadays by other blacks in a single year.

    The sense of scale is important. Lynchings were a part of American history, but a small part, even if you were black. For a black American, the chance of being lynched in the early 20th Century was considerably less than the chance today of being killed by another black, or of dying in a road traffic accident.

    School pupils should learn about lynching, but with comparisons that allow them to judge the frequency of the crime, and without spending a disproportionate amount of time on the subject.

    Replies: @Anon, @Paperback Writer, @Colin Wright

    Denial is both wrong and futile. Honesty is the best policy.

    I’m not the one who is saying that Emmett Till got what he deserved. What happened to him was a heinous crime, no excuses, no denial.

    My point, to repeat it ad nauseam, is why is nebulafox’s comment so great? For the 4th time, he said, (paraphrasing): what’s the fuss over Till? I have a real atrocity for you! And the people here nod their heads and agree with him.

    Maybe Kendi has a point?

    • Replies: @Greta Handel
    @Paperback Writer

    Nebulafox and commenter rebel yell (#82) have explained this ad nauseum.

    What’s apparently upsetting you is being shown that the Establishment couldn’t care less about any of the people involved as it uses tribalism to keep all sides Distracted, Divided & Conquered. Including those lounging around here in Mr. Sailer’s copium den for insecure white guys. Just look upthread as some are pathetically rationalizing and diminishing what happened to the woman only because she was in another tribe.

    Replies: @Paperback Writer, @nebulafox

  172. https://www.foxnews.com/us/ryan-rogers-murder-florida-suspect

    NO MEDAL FOR YOU! (Not the Soup Nazi but actual white-hating Nazis.)

  173. @Art Deco
    Looking up the winners of the Congressional Gold Medal, I see it’s basically the legislative branch’s equivalent of the more famous Presidential Medal of Freedom, but rarer, more committee-like, and more boring,

    Both awards are silly. You can see that by looking at the roster of the recipients but also by reminding yourself that the recipients are being recognized not by their peers but by politicians. That might be appropriate were it an award given to politicians or an award given for some variant of good citizenship (emphasis on 'might'). Because politicians are with an exception here or there sh!tbags, any such award should be vetted by a jury of people selected at random from voting registers.

    Replies: @Joe Stalin, @The Germ Theory of Disease, @David In TN, @Paperback Writer

    Both awards are silly. You can see that by looking at the roster of the recipients

    This is cope.

    https://history.house.gov/Institution/Gold-Medal/Gold-Medal-Recipients/

    The first:

    George Washington March 25, 1776 Continental Congress Military General (future President of the United States) Recognized for his “wise and spirited conduct” in the seige [sic] and acquisition of Boston

    It’s a distinguished list until recently.

    Bad cope.

  174. @Paperback Writer
    @James N. Kennett


    Denial is both wrong and futile. Honesty is the best policy.

     

    I'm not the one who is saying that Emmett Till got what he deserved. What happened to him was a heinous crime, no excuses, no denial.

    My point, to repeat it ad nauseam, is why is nebulafox's comment so great? For the 4th time, he said, (paraphrasing): what's the fuss over Till? I have a real atrocity for you! And the people here nod their heads and agree with him.

    Maybe Kendi has a point?

    Replies: @Greta Handel

    Nebulafox and commenter rebel yell (#82) have explained this ad nauseum.

    What’s apparently upsetting you is being shown that the Establishment couldn’t care less about any of the people involved as it uses tribalism to keep all sides Distracted, Divided & Conquered. Including those lounging around here in Mr. Sailer’s copium den for insecure white guys. Just look upthread as some are pathetically rationalizing and diminishing what happened to the woman only because she was in another tribe.

    • Replies: @Paperback Writer
    @Greta Handel

    No, he hasn't explained it, nor have you.

    Nebula fox concedes that blacks have been brutally treated by whites and that they have every right to hold our crimes against us, collectively, but that Emmett Till isn't the best example of this. No, no - they should use blameless, pregnant Mary Turner. That would be right.

    Something tells me that the Ibram Kendi brigade knows about Mary Turner and will soon be using her to incriminate the white race. At which point nebulafox, rebel yell, and you, will say, "Oh you're right. That really was terrible. Here's a trillion in reparations and my son's balls."

    Replies: @Greta Handel, @nebulafox

    , @nebulafox
    @Greta Handel

    America's biggest problem is its increasingly unaccountable yet incompetent ruling class and their flunkies: corporate, (bipartisan) political, media, bureaucratic, and security. Their stated interests and preferences are at odds with the vast majority of the American citizenry that they are theoretically supposed to be the servants of. Until they are replaced, things are never going to improve. These are the people who actually claim that Joe Biden "speaks the truth to power" with a straight face, for crying out loud. They are dumb, hold you in contempt, or both.

    Do I think the American people don't have other problems, some of their own making? Of course not. But they all pale in comparison with the need for a full housecleaning among our elites.

    My politics are very simple: anybody who agrees with me on this is to be allied with. You could be a transgender New Guinean socialist for all I care. We can work out differences later when the dust settles.

  175. @rebel yell
    @Jim Don Bob


    But yeah, Delaware south of the canal is basically as appealing as Arkansas west of Memphis on I-40 towards Little Rock.
     
    Hey Pal - eastern Arkansas is great if you live there. All the fishing, duck hunting and deer hunting you could want. Rich bottomland for farming, big beautiful old oak and cypress trees. Small towns with majestic county courthouses. A great place for middle class living. The only downside are the blacks, but a few counties in the delta, including the one where I grew up, are all white.
    Though I agree if you are just passing through all you will see is a lot of empty flat land and greasy truck stops.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @Jim Don Bob

    Though I agree if you are just passing through all you will see is a lot of empty flat land and greasy truck stops.

    No offense meant. I-40 to Little Rock and then on to Texarkana is indeed my only experience with Arkansas. The last time was in July with my two nieces. It was 100+ outside and my poor Honda’s AC was having a hard time.

  176. @Colin Wright
    @Paperback Writer

    'I don’t get why this is such a great comment. Everyone here is pretty smart; we all know that the Racial Grievance Industry picks and chooses. But let’s say someone in the RGI picks up on Mary Turner, which we all agree was a horrific crime. Would that be a good thing? Serious question. I’m not trying to pick fights. I’m genuinely baffled at nebulafox’s take here.'

    I'll take my chances. Go for it.

    My betting is that upon examination, the story gets discredited. People in Georgia in 1918 weren't all Franciscan friars -- but they weren't Mongol raiders either. This didn't happen as described.

    Replies: @Paperback Writer, @usNthem

    That’s my guess from looking at a couple of newspaper articles from the time regarding the incident.

  177. @Hannah Katz
    @Hi There

    Seems he was an aggressive teen who sexually harassed a married woman and her husband put an end to it, and to Till. Not an action we can condone, but neither should we treat sexual predators as heroes.

    Replies: @Hi There

    My point went over your head.

    We shouldn’t be litigating the events of Emmett Till because Democratic politicians say that we should.

  178. @Dieter Kief
    @bomag


    We’re in the middle of a grand contract where we give Blacks full access and a hand up; in return they will give equal performance. It is not working out so well. We’re waiting for the contract to run out so we can craft a new arrangement.
     
    Tht sounds - cool? A tad bitter? Harsh. Grim?

    Ok.

    But what I sense is going on here is not cool, but rather simmering hot and - confused. I sense an awful lot of confusion here and - tension (I think of George Floyd - I felt right away (and wrote about it a lot in June 2020) that this was going to get big - if not huge. And it did. Now I think of Derek Chauvin.
    But at the same time I think of Detroit. Or Ferguson...
    Maybeva beginning of sorts would be to acknowledge the problem: - That there is a visible and fairly big group of - on average - underperformers.

    Replies: @bomag

    …a beginning of sorts would be to acknowledge the problem: – That there is a visible and fairly big group of – on average – underperformers.

    Plenty of acknowledgement over the years. The “everybody is above average” crowd has been able to marginalize them.

    • Replies: @Dieter Kief
    @bomag


    Plenty of acknowledgement over the years. The “everybody is above average” crowd has been able to marginalize them.
     
    Yeah - that's what happens: The public discourse gets absurd, if you go on in the wrong direction.

    Hadn't heard of this version of this - öh phenomenon: Everybody is above average. - Yeah, right on... - a little bit further down this road and people will stop to get altogether, what the public discourse is about except grievance and entitlements. The dynamic that goes along with such detoriations of reason is somehow interesting - (up to a certain degree...).

  179. @bomag
    @Dieter Kief


    ...a beginning of sorts would be to acknowledge the problem: – That there is a visible and fairly big group of – on average – underperformers.
     
    Plenty of acknowledgement over the years. The "everybody is above average" crowd has been able to marginalize them.

    Replies: @Dieter Kief

    Plenty of acknowledgement over the years. The “everybody is above average” crowd has been able to marginalize them.

    Yeah – that’s what happens: The public discourse gets absurd, if you go on in the wrong direction.

    Hadn’t heard of this version of this – öh phenomenon: Everybody is above average. – Yeah, right on… – a little bit further down this road and people will stop to get altogether, what the public discourse is about except grievance and entitlements. The dynamic that goes along with such detoriations of reason is somehow interesting – (up to a certain degree…).

  180. @Jim Don Bob
    @Buzz Mohawk

    Delaware north of Wilmington around Route 52 as it seques into SE Pennsylvania is beautiful hilly country with more than a few splendid estates some built by the duPonts. I know a family who bought one in the 70s - the drawers in the master bedroom were lined with silk among other lovely things.

    But yeah, Delaware south of the canal is basically as appealing as Arkansas west of Memphis on I-40 towards Little Rock.

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk, @rebel yell, @PiltdownMan, @Jack D

    Winterthur is worth a visit. One of the DuPonts had a hobby of collecting not only early American furniture (which is now incredibly valuable ) but also complete interiors of rooms from early American houses which he had dismantled and installed in his house – the floors, the plaster, the fire place and mantle pieces and trim, etc. The grounds are also spectacular.

    But, to give others and idea, the “nice” part above the canal extends maybe 20 miles to the PA border (and included maybe half of that area is Wilmington which is mostly a blak slum and a grimy industrial and port section ) and the flat dull and smelly (due to all the chicken farms) rural section below the canal goes on for another 75 miles. The usual electoral divisions apply – the small urbanized section votes mostly Democrat and the rural areas vote Republican but there are a lot more Corn Pops than corn farmers.

  181. @Greta Handel
    @Paperback Writer

    Nebulafox and commenter rebel yell (#82) have explained this ad nauseum.

    What’s apparently upsetting you is being shown that the Establishment couldn’t care less about any of the people involved as it uses tribalism to keep all sides Distracted, Divided & Conquered. Including those lounging around here in Mr. Sailer’s copium den for insecure white guys. Just look upthread as some are pathetically rationalizing and diminishing what happened to the woman only because she was in another tribe.

    Replies: @Paperback Writer, @nebulafox

    No, he hasn’t explained it, nor have you.

    Nebula fox concedes that blacks have been brutally treated by whites and that they have every right to hold our crimes against us, collectively, but that Emmett Till isn’t the best example of this. No, no – they should use blameless, pregnant Mary Turner. That would be right.

    Something tells me that the Ibram Kendi brigade knows about Mary Turner and will soon be using her to incriminate the white race. At which point nebulafox, rebel yell, and you, will say, “Oh you’re right. That really was terrible. Here’s a trillion in reparations and my son’s balls.”

    • Disagree: Greta Handel
    • Replies: @Greta Handel
    @Paperback Writer

    Or maybe I missed something.

    Please cite by # the comment(s) and the actual words above with which nebulafox asserts


    that they have every right to hold our crimes against us, collectively[.]
     
    , @nebulafox
    @Paperback Writer

    You don't get it. They don't want a written commitment to "settle" things. They want a permanent causus belli.

    Black political power is on the decline. In general, their future in 21st Century America is looking grim: if you want an indicator of the future, look at how Mexican organized crime (which is going to be far more important in the long run than black riots) has dealt with the black residents of places like Los Angeles. They've been firebombing black homes to get them to leave. I suspect the BLM freak-out is partly rooted in this. They know this is their last shot to have any heft.

    Replies: @Paperback Writer

  182. @kaganovitch
    @Buzz Mohawk

    It’s true. In 1974 I played Otto Frank in a mandatory play recreating Anne Frank’s Diary. That was for a junior high school “language arts” class. We read about and discussed the Holocaust. I have no memory whatsoever of any class covering the Civil War, at all, ever, in my school years.

    It's kind of ironic/funny. I grew up in Brooklyn in a %95 Jewish neighborhood and went to wall-to-wall Jewish schools and we never learned about the Holocaust in secular studies, whereas we learned much about the Civil War. On the other hand the overwhelming majority of the neighborhood were 'griner' or the children of those who had lived through the war in Europe so a Holocaust curriculum may have been viewed as 'Coals to Newcastle', so to speak.

    Replies: @Paperback Writer

    Same here. Never heard of “the Holocaust” till I was 11, and that was downstream of Eichmann a few years. Certainly never learned about it in school – and you know something, I’m happy for that. What would have been the purpose, and it would have been excruciating.

    We learned a fair amount about the Civil War. Not enough. Didn’t do any military stuff because our teachers were literally a bunch of old ladies. We learned pitifully little about the American Revolution.

  183. @James N. Kennett
    @Paperback Writer


    So what?

    Should we be teaching her story in school in CRT study sessions?
     
    Denial is both wrong and futile. Honesty is the best policy.

    Lynchings were a part of American history. Usually the victim did not deserve to die, and usually the perpetrators got away with their crime. America is not like that now: if a crime looks like a white-on-black extra-judicial execution, the killer will go to prison for decades or even life. And the total number lynched since the end of the Civil War is less than the number of blacks killed nowadays by other blacks in a single year.

    The sense of scale is important. Lynchings were a part of American history, but a small part, even if you were black. For a black American, the chance of being lynched in the early 20th Century was considerably less than the chance today of being killed by another black, or of dying in a road traffic accident.

    School pupils should learn about lynching, but with comparisons that allow them to judge the frequency of the crime, and without spending a disproportionate amount of time on the subject.

    Replies: @Anon, @Paperback Writer, @Colin Wright

    ‘…Lynchings were a part of American history. Usually the victim did not deserve to die, and usually the perpetrators got away with their crime…’

    I’m skeptical of that. I imagine usually the victim was guilty of something heinous enough to move the community to collective outrage.

    ‘Usually’ of course is an inadequate judicial standard — and the collective outrage of the community a rather nebulous yardstick — but at a guess, your average lynching victim more or less deserved it. Certainly that was the case with those instances I bothered to look up.

    • Agree: bomag
  184. @Paperback Writer
    @Greta Handel

    No, he hasn't explained it, nor have you.

    Nebula fox concedes that blacks have been brutally treated by whites and that they have every right to hold our crimes against us, collectively, but that Emmett Till isn't the best example of this. No, no - they should use blameless, pregnant Mary Turner. That would be right.

    Something tells me that the Ibram Kendi brigade knows about Mary Turner and will soon be using her to incriminate the white race. At which point nebulafox, rebel yell, and you, will say, "Oh you're right. That really was terrible. Here's a trillion in reparations and my son's balls."

    Replies: @Greta Handel, @nebulafox

    Or maybe I missed something.

    Please cite by # the comment(s) and the actual words above with which nebulafox asserts

    that they have every right to hold our crimes against us, collectively[.]

    • Troll: Paperback Writer
  185. @Jack D
    @Buzz Mohawk

    Arguably, Till is emblematic of America's systemic racism, which (arguably) exists to this very day. A white man (according to some accounts) racistly ran over and shot an innocent black man just this week.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2022/01/11/jason-walker-/

    The Liberty incident was a fog of war type incident. Even US troops have friendly fire incidents where they fire on their own troops (or shoot down Iranian civilian passenger airliners and kill 290 people). Israel apologized for the attack. Both the Israeli and U.S. governments conducted inquiries and issued reports that concluded the attack was a mistake due to Israeli confusion about the ship's identity and the Israeli government paid compensation to the US and to the families of the victims. It did not have any long term lasting impact on US-Israeli relations and no more incidents of this kind have occurred. So bringing it up repeatedly has no purpose other than to stir up hatred.

    And as I mentioned, many Unz kvetchers wish that we wouldn't hear any more about Till. If you wish this, it ill behooves you to bring up other incidents that should also be dead letters now.

    Replies: @Mr. Anon, @El Dato, @Professional Slav, @Hibernian

    The Liberty was attacked repeatedly. Fog of war incidents are not always short term and then broken off quickly when the tragic error is realized, but most often they are. I’d like to hear of a true friendly fire incident from, say, WW1, WW2, Korea, Vietnam, etc., where the attacks were so persistent, if there was one. If a similar incident was American vs. American or Israeli vs. Israeli, it certainly would have been dealt with much differently.

    As for Till, sure the incident is going to be and should be. It’s a question of degree.

  186. @Paperback Writer
    @Greta Handel

    No, he hasn't explained it, nor have you.

    Nebula fox concedes that blacks have been brutally treated by whites and that they have every right to hold our crimes against us, collectively, but that Emmett Till isn't the best example of this. No, no - they should use blameless, pregnant Mary Turner. That would be right.

    Something tells me that the Ibram Kendi brigade knows about Mary Turner and will soon be using her to incriminate the white race. At which point nebulafox, rebel yell, and you, will say, "Oh you're right. That really was terrible. Here's a trillion in reparations and my son's balls."

    Replies: @Greta Handel, @nebulafox

    You don’t get it. They don’t want a written commitment to “settle” things. They want a permanent causus belli.

    Black political power is on the decline. In general, their future in 21st Century America is looking grim: if you want an indicator of the future, look at how Mexican organized crime (which is going to be far more important in the long run than black riots) has dealt with the black residents of places like Los Angeles. They’ve been firebombing black homes to get them to leave. I suspect the BLM freak-out is partly rooted in this. They know this is their last shot to have any heft.

    • Replies: @Paperback Writer
    @nebulafox

    nebulafox -

    We're obviously talking past one another. I agree with everything you say in this comment, but it is all deflection and has NOTHING to do with the issue at hand: Till-Mania.

    With that in mind let's go back to your Mary Turner comment.

    What was the purpose of rehashing that bit of atrocity porn? You think it was to expose how politically motivated the current Till-mania is? You think you did that?

    Well, buddy, you didn't. All you proved is the OTHER side's point: that black people have been treated to specific, unique, invidious and overwhelming oppression.

    Perhaps Emmett Till isn't the perfect example of this. Mary Turner is.

    How am I wrong here. What am I missing?

    Replies: @nebulafox

  187. @Greta Handel
    @Paperback Writer

    Nebulafox and commenter rebel yell (#82) have explained this ad nauseum.

    What’s apparently upsetting you is being shown that the Establishment couldn’t care less about any of the people involved as it uses tribalism to keep all sides Distracted, Divided & Conquered. Including those lounging around here in Mr. Sailer’s copium den for insecure white guys. Just look upthread as some are pathetically rationalizing and diminishing what happened to the woman only because she was in another tribe.

    Replies: @Paperback Writer, @nebulafox

    America’s biggest problem is its increasingly unaccountable yet incompetent ruling class and their flunkies: corporate, (bipartisan) political, media, bureaucratic, and security. Their stated interests and preferences are at odds with the vast majority of the American citizenry that they are theoretically supposed to be the servants of. Until they are replaced, things are never going to improve. These are the people who actually claim that Joe Biden “speaks the truth to power” with a straight face, for crying out loud. They are dumb, hold you in contempt, or both.

    Do I think the American people don’t have other problems, some of their own making? Of course not. But they all pale in comparison with the need for a full housecleaning among our elites.

    My politics are very simple: anybody who agrees with me on this is to be allied with. You could be a transgender New Guinean socialist for all I care. We can work out differences later when the dust settles.

    • Thanks: Greta Handel
  188. @nebulafox
    @Paperback Writer

    You don't get it. They don't want a written commitment to "settle" things. They want a permanent causus belli.

    Black political power is on the decline. In general, their future in 21st Century America is looking grim: if you want an indicator of the future, look at how Mexican organized crime (which is going to be far more important in the long run than black riots) has dealt with the black residents of places like Los Angeles. They've been firebombing black homes to get them to leave. I suspect the BLM freak-out is partly rooted in this. They know this is their last shot to have any heft.

    Replies: @Paperback Writer

    nebulafox –

    We’re obviously talking past one another. I agree with everything you say in this comment, but it is all deflection and has NOTHING to do with the issue at hand: Till-Mania.

    With that in mind let’s go back to your Mary Turner comment.

    What was the purpose of rehashing that bit of atrocity porn? You think it was to expose how politically motivated the current Till-mania is? You think you did that?

    Well, buddy, you didn’t. All you proved is the OTHER side’s point: that black people have been treated to specific, unique, invidious and overwhelming oppression.

    Perhaps Emmett Till isn’t the perfect example of this. Mary Turner is.

    How am I wrong here. What am I missing?

    • Replies: @nebulafox
    @Paperback Writer

    That these people don't actually care about history. They don't care about real heroism. These people care about their own emotional complexes. They are the same self absorbed Boomers they've always been.

    >All you proved is the OTHER side’s point: that black people have been treated to specific, unique, invidious and overwhelming oppression

    With the exception of the indigenous peoples, yes. Blacks do have a uniquely frought history in this country. That's just objective historical reality. They are the only ethnic group that didn't come here of their own free will. Until the 1960s, they were second class citizens on a good day and subhumans on a bad one. What they are about to find out is that Hispanics and Asians are unlikely to give a damn, and that the BadWhites-who aren't stupid and can sense hypocrisy-aren't going to be inclined to play the role the GoodWhites demand indefinitely.

    That's not the issue. The issue is that people are dumb enough to use that as cover to not address gross social dysfunction. It's really Mean Girls tier stuff, when you think about it. BLM leaders are living in affluent, safe neighborhoods. Upper middle class liberals get married before having kids and wouldn't tolerate entrenched gang culture in their neighborhoods. They'll encourage this all so they can stick to the parts of Red America they despise. The banality, the petty nature of their evil.

    Replies: @Paperback Writer

  189. @Paperback Writer
    @nebulafox

    nebulafox -

    We're obviously talking past one another. I agree with everything you say in this comment, but it is all deflection and has NOTHING to do with the issue at hand: Till-Mania.

    With that in mind let's go back to your Mary Turner comment.

    What was the purpose of rehashing that bit of atrocity porn? You think it was to expose how politically motivated the current Till-mania is? You think you did that?

    Well, buddy, you didn't. All you proved is the OTHER side's point: that black people have been treated to specific, unique, invidious and overwhelming oppression.

    Perhaps Emmett Till isn't the perfect example of this. Mary Turner is.

    How am I wrong here. What am I missing?

    Replies: @nebulafox

    That these people don’t actually care about history. They don’t care about real heroism. These people care about their own emotional complexes. They are the same self absorbed Boomers they’ve always been.

    >All you proved is the OTHER side’s point: that black people have been treated to specific, unique, invidious and overwhelming oppression

    With the exception of the indigenous peoples, yes. Blacks do have a uniquely frought history in this country. That’s just objective historical reality. They are the only ethnic group that didn’t come here of their own free will. Until the 1960s, they were second class citizens on a good day and subhumans on a bad one. What they are about to find out is that Hispanics and Asians are unlikely to give a damn, and that the BadWhites-who aren’t stupid and can sense hypocrisy-aren’t going to be inclined to play the role the GoodWhites demand indefinitely.

    That’s not the issue. The issue is that people are dumb enough to use that as cover to not address gross social dysfunction. It’s really Mean Girls tier stuff, when you think about it. BLM leaders are living in affluent, safe neighborhoods. Upper middle class liberals get married before having kids and wouldn’t tolerate entrenched gang culture in their neighborhoods. They’ll encourage this all so they can stick to the parts of Red America they despise. The banality, the petty nature of their evil.

    • Replies: @Paperback Writer
    @nebulafox


    All you proved is the OTHER side’s point: that black people have been treated to specific, unique, invidious and overwhelming oppression

    With the exception of the indigenous peoples, yes. Blacks do have a uniquely frought history in this country. That’s just objective historical reality. They are the only ethnic group that didn’t come here of their own free will. Until the 1960s, they were second class citizens on a good day and subhumans on a bad one.

    That’s not the issue.
     
    It's very much the issue. You say so yourself, otherwise why bring it up?

    I do have to thank you for being honest about this & not dismissing it with the usual mean-spirited contempt, the way the rest of the people here do.

    Replies: @nebulafox

  190. @nebulafox
    @Paperback Writer

    That these people don't actually care about history. They don't care about real heroism. These people care about their own emotional complexes. They are the same self absorbed Boomers they've always been.

    >All you proved is the OTHER side’s point: that black people have been treated to specific, unique, invidious and overwhelming oppression

    With the exception of the indigenous peoples, yes. Blacks do have a uniquely frought history in this country. That's just objective historical reality. They are the only ethnic group that didn't come here of their own free will. Until the 1960s, they were second class citizens on a good day and subhumans on a bad one. What they are about to find out is that Hispanics and Asians are unlikely to give a damn, and that the BadWhites-who aren't stupid and can sense hypocrisy-aren't going to be inclined to play the role the GoodWhites demand indefinitely.

    That's not the issue. The issue is that people are dumb enough to use that as cover to not address gross social dysfunction. It's really Mean Girls tier stuff, when you think about it. BLM leaders are living in affluent, safe neighborhoods. Upper middle class liberals get married before having kids and wouldn't tolerate entrenched gang culture in their neighborhoods. They'll encourage this all so they can stick to the parts of Red America they despise. The banality, the petty nature of their evil.

    Replies: @Paperback Writer

    All you proved is the OTHER side’s point: that black people have been treated to specific, unique, invidious and overwhelming oppression

    With the exception of the indigenous peoples, yes. Blacks do have a uniquely frought history in this country. That’s just objective historical reality. They are the only ethnic group that didn’t come here of their own free will. Until the 1960s, they were second class citizens on a good day and subhumans on a bad one.

    That’s not the issue.

    It’s very much the issue. You say so yourself, otherwise why bring it up?

    I do have to thank you for being honest about this & not dismissing it with the usual mean-spirited contempt, the way the rest of the people here do.

    • Replies: @nebulafox
    @Paperback Writer

    Because-and perhaps this does reflect my origins to an extent-I reject the premises of ancestral guilt and focusing on "blame". (I know how that ends in other parts of the world: believe me. Not. Pretty.) But White America does not owe Black America jack, even if you disagree. How can it? The majority of ancestors arrived after 1865, and of those who didn't, the amount who could have afforded slaves are minimal. Focusing on historical blame is asinine. The dead are dead. We respect them more by working to build rather than using them as political props.

    That is respect. Real, total respect. I believe Mary Turner was a heroine that deserves to be remembered as such. Enough of one that she deserves better than to be used as a symbol by grifters to profit. What do you think she'd prefer? Seeing her descendants being treated as equal American citizens and being able to do anything they want, being treated not as fetish symbols or animals, or nice corporate slogans and a shiny medal?

    I also reject leftist morality altogether. Victimhood is to be (compassionately! I'm no Nietzschean) overcome. It's not to be aspired to for status reasons. I find it utterly perverse how America's affluent extols life decisions they, with occasional exceptions, seldom make.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Paperback Writer

  191. @Paperback Writer
    @nebulafox


    All you proved is the OTHER side’s point: that black people have been treated to specific, unique, invidious and overwhelming oppression

    With the exception of the indigenous peoples, yes. Blacks do have a uniquely frought history in this country. That’s just objective historical reality. They are the only ethnic group that didn’t come here of their own free will. Until the 1960s, they were second class citizens on a good day and subhumans on a bad one.

    That’s not the issue.
     
    It's very much the issue. You say so yourself, otherwise why bring it up?

    I do have to thank you for being honest about this & not dismissing it with the usual mean-spirited contempt, the way the rest of the people here do.

    Replies: @nebulafox

    Because-and perhaps this does reflect my origins to an extent-I reject the premises of ancestral guilt and focusing on “blame”. (I know how that ends in other parts of the world: believe me. Not. Pretty.) But White America does not owe Black America jack, even if you disagree. How can it? The majority of ancestors arrived after 1865, and of those who didn’t, the amount who could have afforded slaves are minimal. Focusing on historical blame is asinine. The dead are dead. We respect them more by working to build rather than using them as political props.

    That is respect. Real, total respect. I believe Mary Turner was a heroine that deserves to be remembered as such. Enough of one that she deserves better than to be used as a symbol by grifters to profit. What do you think she’d prefer? Seeing her descendants being treated as equal American citizens and being able to do anything they want, being treated not as fetish symbols or animals, or nice corporate slogans and a shiny medal?

    I also reject leftist morality altogether. Victimhood is to be (compassionately! I’m no Nietzschean) overcome. It’s not to be aspired to for status reasons. I find it utterly perverse how America’s affluent extols life decisions they, with occasional exceptions, seldom make.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @nebulafox


    But White America does not owe Black America jack, even if you disagree. How can it? The majority of ancestors arrived after 1865, and of those who didn’t, the amount who could have afforded slaves are minimal.
     
    Blacks weren’t harmed by slavery; they have benefited enormously from it. If anyone is owed anything, it is those Americans who have ancestors who owned “slaves.”
    , @Paperback Writer
    @nebulafox

    You sound like a very sincere human being, nf, but if you think Mary Turner will be celebrated as a heroine by the Racial Grievance Industry, you are sorely mistaken. However, this place is not the right place to disagree about that. Everything gets turned into a tribal fight here.

    Replies: @Greta Handel

  192. Anonymous[392] • Disclaimer says:
    @nebulafox
    @Paperback Writer

    Because-and perhaps this does reflect my origins to an extent-I reject the premises of ancestral guilt and focusing on "blame". (I know how that ends in other parts of the world: believe me. Not. Pretty.) But White America does not owe Black America jack, even if you disagree. How can it? The majority of ancestors arrived after 1865, and of those who didn't, the amount who could have afforded slaves are minimal. Focusing on historical blame is asinine. The dead are dead. We respect them more by working to build rather than using them as political props.

    That is respect. Real, total respect. I believe Mary Turner was a heroine that deserves to be remembered as such. Enough of one that she deserves better than to be used as a symbol by grifters to profit. What do you think she'd prefer? Seeing her descendants being treated as equal American citizens and being able to do anything they want, being treated not as fetish symbols or animals, or nice corporate slogans and a shiny medal?

    I also reject leftist morality altogether. Victimhood is to be (compassionately! I'm no Nietzschean) overcome. It's not to be aspired to for status reasons. I find it utterly perverse how America's affluent extols life decisions they, with occasional exceptions, seldom make.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Paperback Writer

    But White America does not owe Black America jack, even if you disagree. How can it? The majority of ancestors arrived after 1865, and of those who didn’t, the amount who could have afforded slaves are minimal.

    Blacks weren’t harmed by slavery; they have benefited enormously from it. If anyone is owed anything, it is those Americans who have ancestors who owned “slaves.”

  193. @nebulafox
    @Paperback Writer

    Because-and perhaps this does reflect my origins to an extent-I reject the premises of ancestral guilt and focusing on "blame". (I know how that ends in other parts of the world: believe me. Not. Pretty.) But White America does not owe Black America jack, even if you disagree. How can it? The majority of ancestors arrived after 1865, and of those who didn't, the amount who could have afforded slaves are minimal. Focusing on historical blame is asinine. The dead are dead. We respect them more by working to build rather than using them as political props.

    That is respect. Real, total respect. I believe Mary Turner was a heroine that deserves to be remembered as such. Enough of one that she deserves better than to be used as a symbol by grifters to profit. What do you think she'd prefer? Seeing her descendants being treated as equal American citizens and being able to do anything they want, being treated not as fetish symbols or animals, or nice corporate slogans and a shiny medal?

    I also reject leftist morality altogether. Victimhood is to be (compassionately! I'm no Nietzschean) overcome. It's not to be aspired to for status reasons. I find it utterly perverse how America's affluent extols life decisions they, with occasional exceptions, seldom make.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Paperback Writer

    You sound like a very sincere human being, nf, but if you think Mary Turner will be celebrated as a heroine by the Racial Grievance Industry, you are sorely mistaken. However, this place is not the right place to disagree about that. Everything gets turned into a tribal fight here.

    • Replies: @Greta Handel
    @Paperback Writer


    Everything gets turned into a tribal fight here.
     
    You finally got it.
  194. @Paperback Writer
    @nebulafox

    You sound like a very sincere human being, nf, but if you think Mary Turner will be celebrated as a heroine by the Racial Grievance Industry, you are sorely mistaken. However, this place is not the right place to disagree about that. Everything gets turned into a tribal fight here.

    Replies: @Greta Handel

    Everything gets turned into a tribal fight here.

    You finally got it.

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