The Unz Review • An Alternative Media Selection
A Collection of Interesting, Important, and Controversial Perspectives Largely Excluded from the American Mainstream Media
 TeasersRussian Reaction Blog
Wokeness as White Supremacism
Why Western SJWs are the Real Racists
Email This Page to Someone

 Remember My Information



=>

Bookmark Toggle AllToCAdd to LibraryRemove from Library • BShow CommentNext New CommentNext New ReplyRead More
ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
AgreeDisagreeThanksLOLTroll
These buttons register your public Agreement, Disagreement, Thanks, LOL, or Troll with the selected comment. They are ONLY available to recent, frequent commenters who have saved their Name+Email using the 'Remember My Information' checkbox, and may also ONLY be used three times during any eight hour period.
Ignore Commenter Follow Commenter
Search Text Case Sensitive  Exact Words  Include Comments
List of Bookmarks

Bold but not entirely trollish interpretation of the Great Awokening.

Western – White American – culture remains hegemonic around the world, even as its economic and military preponderance slips away. Assuming this cultural hegemony remains intact, cultural “innovations” that arise in the imperial metropolis inevitably seep their way into the colonies.

This is obviously correct within the Core West, e.g. Europe. It also strongly applies to Latin America. The main barriers are low English language proficiency (e.g. Hungary relative to Poland), and strong authoritarian states (e.g. China, to a lesser extent Russia).

But these “innovations”, while creating some ferment – with the effects not even uniformly negative – occur in advanced societies over a prolonged period of time, allowing them scope to come to a symbiosis with the pathogen.

Meanwhile, in countries to which the Great Awokening comes as a “complete package”, the consequences can be more dramatic and indeed terminal, as Nikolay Trubetzkoy described with respect to socialism in The Struggle Between Europe and Mankind.

16% of Gen Z in the US now identify as LGBT. So “child-free” is likely to soar to German levels over the next decades. OTOH, Western countries have had a century or more of selection for “breeders”. Amongst those who do have children, the average birth sequence is soaring ahead of Latin America, India, multiple Muslim countries. Now think about the “triple whammy” that many of these non-Western countries are going to face this century:

(1) Demographic transition – thus far, a universal phenomenon that is in happening even in Sub-Saharan Africa as a whole not notable in some regions/peoples, e.g. Kenyans, Christian Nigerians.

(2) In conjunction with well more than a century of post-Malthusian selection for breeders (France started earliest on this) that started much earlier than in the developed West.

(3) Once traditionalist barriers break down, as they always have, these Third World polities whose elites are in thrall to hegemonic Western culture will be culturally colonized to a much greater degree and more destructively so than was ever the case within the American noosphere, in which responses and adaptations to woke memes have co-evolved.

Non-nuclear smaller Powers that do offer up token resistance will be crushed by Woke Mil, which will remain functional at least so far as suppressing colonial revolts goes.

Just replace “socialist” with “woke” here:

Trubetzkoy emphasizes that socialism is just the latest expression of egocentric European pretensions to universality, rather than the road to salvation from European spiritual tyranny. As it relies on “militant cosmopolitanism” for its propagation, global socialism is only possible in the context of “universal Europeanization”. Once such a new world order is created, its champions will have to remain “armed to the teeth” to protect it – “The first order of business for the European socialist states would be to impose this system everywhere by fire and sword and then to exercise great vigilance to prevent apostasy”.

Palestinians these days are not doing so well relative to Israeli Jews, even in demographic terms. No reason the same won’t be true with respect to Anglo-Americans and Latinos half a century hence, or with respect to Europeans and Africans by 2100. Current Alt Right visions of a “rising tide of color” overwhelming white-world supremacy, of Eurabia, Reconquista, and Infinity Negroes, will be but amusing historical footnotes as the real racists – woke white Western supremacists – yet again reformat the world in their own image.

 
Hide 174 CommentsLeave a Comment
Commenters to Ignore...to FollowEndorsed Only
Trim Comments?
  1. Please keep off topic posts to the current Open Thread.

    If you are new to my work, start here.

    Commenting rules. Please note that anonymous comments are not allowed.

  2. These people are subhuman degenerates, they could be easily wiped out if the rest of the world wanted to. The Soviets had no qualms about flattening entire villages, the Americans these days are far more squeamish about going full “sicko mode” these days. The effect of television and the internet is part of this.

    • Replies: @Feryl
    @Nodwink

    The instantaneous transmission of images does seem to have really turned off modern man from protracted and large scale slaughter. Hell, an *officially* permitted knee hold on a large man by the hapless Derek Chauvin was universally condemned as "barbaric", such is the revulsion toward violence/force that is now the norm.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

  3. Pretty funny and I do agree Woke is just the next iteration of Christian universalism (albeit without a God or a Christ but a race of devils and plenty of sin), but:

    1. Europe and America have fewer people so the rest of the world would be decaying from a higher baseline even if demographic collapse occurs harder there.

    2. A lot of the rise in LGBT is bisexual women, who may be gaining ‘Wokemon points’ (“me and my BFF are going out! we’re totally not straightcishets!”) but still make families with men. (Men can’t do this because straight women are much more leery of bi men due to the HIV risk.)

    3. You’re forgetting about China. Over a billion and not particularly woke, and with plenty of their own culture and history if they want to use that for nationalistic purposes. Was it you or AE who said the one thing China doesn’t have to worry about when making engineers and programmers is having too many Asians?

    • Replies: @Jake
    @SFG

    Woke is not "the next iteration of Christian universalism." Woke is another in an endless line of replacements for historic Christian identities and movements. Just like Socialism. Just like Anglo-Zionist Empire.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @SFG

    , @songbird
    @SFG


    Pretty funny and I do agree Woke is just the next iteration of Christian universalism (albeit without a God or a Christ but a race of devils and plenty of sin)
     
    Henry Harpending's idea of witchcraft seems much more appropriate.
    , @JohnPlywood
    @SFG

    China is as aged as Europe. 1 billion people doesn't mean shit, that'a a fucking burden on them.

  4. 16% of Gen Z in the US now identify as LGBT.

    Wonder if such kind inquries are done accounting survirorship bias and change of societal norms? I mean now the boomer percentage of LGBT is way smaller than 16%, but there was shitload of dead gays from AIDS before some treatments appeared, who now would be boomers if alive, not even to mention there was way more peer pressure to stay silent about such orientations then.

    • Replies: @Firefinga
    @sudden death

    I suspect a lot of these are girls claiming to be "bi" or "non-binary" bc it's a current fad.

  5. The link to Trubetzkoy’s essay is broken in AK’s 2009 post. Here is a working link:

    http://emsu.ru/Club/KRUG/liter/trubeur.htm

  6. @SFG
    Pretty funny and I do agree Woke is just the next iteration of Christian universalism (albeit without a God or a Christ but a race of devils and plenty of sin), but:

    1. Europe and America have fewer people so the rest of the world would be decaying from a higher baseline even if demographic collapse occurs harder there.

    2. A lot of the rise in LGBT is bisexual women, who may be gaining 'Wokemon points' ("me and my BFF are going out! we're totally not straightcishets!") but still make families with men. (Men can't do this because straight women are much more leery of bi men due to the HIV risk.)

    3. You're forgetting about China. Over a billion and not particularly woke, and with plenty of their own culture and history if they want to use that for nationalistic purposes. Was it you or AE who said the one thing China doesn't have to worry about when making engineers and programmers is having too many Asians?

    Replies: @Jake, @songbird, @JohnPlywood

    Woke is not “the next iteration of Christian universalism.” Woke is another in an endless line of replacements for historic Christian identities and movements. Just like Socialism. Just like Anglo-Zionist Empire.

    • Agree: El Dato
    • Troll: Jatt Aryaa
    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @Jake

    https://www.nuntiare.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/CristoRevolucionario.jpg

    Sorry to disappoint...

    Replies: @Carlo, @songbird, @RSDB

    , @SFG
    @Jake

    Nah, the new faith is usually pretty hostile to the old faith it's coming from. Look at Socialism and Christianity, or Protestantism and Catholicism.

  7. Karlin is again trying to sound controversial in order to bring more attention to himself, not because he realy thought about what he was talking about.

    One simple point why Karlin is wrong and why i don’t expect much liberalism among non-europeans: greater inbreeding.

    More inbreeding in turn results in more selfish and clannish behavior among non-europeans, as well as low levels of altruism.

    https://hbdchick.wordpress.com/2011/03/04/inbreeding-and-natl-iq/

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    @Passer by

    Many of the most liberal areas of the US today are populated in areas of Med and East European settlement during late 19C/early 20C.

    As far as I can recall, GSS data doesn't suggest Americans of Germanic or Anglo descent are much more liberal (IIRC it was actually the converse).

    ***

    "Showing up" is ultimately more important than irrelevant trifles like "liberalism" or especially "conservatism" which can mean all manner of different things across mere decades let alone centuries.

    But no evidence that "greater inbreeding" affects that directly. (Apart from more inbred peoples tending to be duller and more remote, so develop/demographically transition later).

    Ladakh, and Jammu and Kashmir in India, now has one its lowest TFRs. https://www.unz.com/akarlin/india-fertility-falls-below-replacement/

    Replies: @Passer by, @Feryl

    , @EldnahYm
    @Passer by

    Is inbreeding increasing among third worlders? Given the rates of urbanization, I would expect inbreeding to decrease over time in most populations. So I think AK's points will increasingly apply in the third world even if what you say is right.

    Replies: @Passer by

  8. Does this count as white people scheming to commit nonwhite genocide?

    • Replies: @Europe Europa
    @Shortsword

    Does it count as genocide when the "genociders" also want to genocide themselves in the process?

    Most of these whites also want white countries to become coffee coloured "woke" cesspits.

  9. By the way, there is now a partial (& ongoing) English translation of Trubetzkoy’s Europe and Mankind:

    https://sashamaps.net/docs/writings/europe-and-mankind/

    The translator is Trubetzkoy’s first cousin thrice removed, Alexandr Trubetskoy, a self-described “data and geography nerd” who lives in northern Virginia. He has produced quite an interesting series of maps, here is one of Roman roads in France:

    [MORE]
    And here is one of voting divisions in Europe:

    • Thanks: Bashibuzuk
  10. china-russia-all-the-way says:

    This essay was confusing for me. Particularly point no. 3. Not clear why the elites or upper middle class of those countries would be colonized more.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    @china-russia-all-the-way


    This essay was confusing for me. Particularly point no. 3. Not clear why the elites or upper middle class of those countries would be colonized more.

     

    Because they are more likely to; speak English, read, listen to, or watch English-language news, be educated in overseas universities and boarding schools, travel internationally, conduct international exchanges (business, academic, artistic et al affairs), consume Anglophone pop culture, reside in a milieu where high status is often equated with American or generic pseudo-Western prestige culture, possess property or discreet bank accounts abroad, multiple citizenships or permanent residences, et cetera.

    And for every one upper class person who has this there will be two slightly lower in the social hierarchy who will aspire to this.

  11. @Jake
    @SFG

    Woke is not "the next iteration of Christian universalism." Woke is another in an endless line of replacements for historic Christian identities and movements. Just like Socialism. Just like Anglo-Zionist Empire.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @SFG

    Sorry to disappoint…

    • Replies: @Carlo
    @Bashibuzuk

    Not a valid argument. These are stupid Liberation Movement, they are not even Catholic though they pretend to be. The same applies to the current pope, who has some leftist ideas.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

    , @songbird
    @Bashibuzuk

    Is it really a surprise to see revolutionary fervor in Latin America? IMO, big mistake to divorce religion from its ethnic context. (doing so, in fact, a symptom of universalism) A Muslim Malay is hardly the same thing as a Wahhabist Arab. Meanwhile, Korean Christians tend to be members of prosperity churches, very different to traditional Euro Christianity.

    I think people like Yarvin need to be treated with a grain of salt. If we are living in the new Christian fervor, then how does one explain the following: I see a fingerprint on countless Hollywood movies - I think to myself, this is intentionally insulting to Christians, obscene, and subversive, who created it? Well, curiously, it never seems to be Christians or even gentile atheists.

    Is political culture distinct from Hollywood? Rather, seems to be a large degree of convergence.

    , @RSDB
    @Bashibuzuk

    Sure, but you can do the same thing with the Buddha.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdVGfTy7468

    (Opening lyrics: "Buddha, Jesus, Gandhi-- why were they born? For the benefit of us, the poor.")

  12. Special interests know that by making the moral purity tests of cancel culture appear legitimate, they can employ them to silence those who might attack and expose the structures of corporate power and imperial crimes. Campaigns of moral absolutism appeal to naive, privileged children but widen the gap between the liberal elites and the white working class, because division is crucial to maintaining the power of the elites by deflecting attention from their far more egregious, institutionalized abuses of power. Boutique activism converts ordinary people into partners in advancing those interests, in a dangerous new form of psychologically manipulative narrative control.

    Machiavelli explained the principle of wokeism in 1513, “One of the great secrets of the day is to know how to take possession of popular prejudices and passions, in such a way as to introduce a confusion of principles which makes impossible all understanding between those who speak the same language and have the same interests.”

    I think this is related too. In a 2013 speech, Chinese Premier Xi Jinping identified a significant reason why the USSR dissolved: “Why did the Soviet Union disintegrate? Why did the Soviet Communist Party fall from power? An important reason was that the struggle in the field of ideology was extremely intense, completely negating the history of the Soviet Union, negating the history of the Soviet Communist Party, negating Lenin, negating Stalin, creating historical nihilism and confused thinking. Party organs at all levels had lost their functions, the military was no longer under Party leadership. In the end, the Soviet Communist Party, a great party, was scattered, the Soviet Union, a great socialist country, disintegrated. This is a cautionary tale!”

    This is an interesting article, written by an actual black Leftist, “Woke Capitalism The Poison Pill of Liberal Anti-Racism” at https://www.blackagendareport.com/woke-capitalism-poison-pill-liberal-anti-racism

    • Agree: Digital Samizdat
  13. @Passer by
    Karlin is again trying to sound controversial in order to bring more attention to himself, not because he realy thought about what he was talking about.

    One simple point why Karlin is wrong and why i don't expect much liberalism among non-europeans: greater inbreeding.

    More inbreeding in turn results in more selfish and clannish behavior among non-europeans, as well as low levels of altruism.

    https://hbdchick.wordpress.com/2011/03/04/inbreeding-and-natl-iq/

    Replies: @Anatoly Karlin, @EldnahYm

    Many of the most liberal areas of the US today are populated in areas of Med and East European settlement during late 19C/early 20C.

    As far as I can recall, GSS data doesn’t suggest Americans of Germanic or Anglo descent are much more liberal (IIRC it was actually the converse).

    ***

    “Showing up” is ultimately more important than irrelevant trifles like “liberalism” or especially “conservatism” which can mean all manner of different things across mere decades let alone centuries.

    But no evidence that “greater inbreeding” affects that directly. (Apart from more inbred peoples tending to be duller and more remote, so develop/demographically transition later).

    Ladakh, and Jammu and Kashmir in India, now has one its lowest TFRs. https://www.unz.com/akarlin/india-fertility-falls-below-replacement/

    • Replies: @Passer by
    @Anatoly Karlin


    “Showing up” is ultimately more important than irrelevant trifles like “liberalism” or especially “conservatism”
     
    They are not irrelevant, because you suggested that TPTB will be able to reformat the world in their image, and i told you why i don't see that happening. Go live in migrant area in Europe and see how "reformated" it is. These are not the same people, and their behavior is not the same to that of euros. Sorry.

    As for showing up, even if somehow TFRs equalise by 2100, which i don't fully believe, there is a demographic tailwind in nonwestern countries due to their younger population. At equal TFR, you get higher birth rate for the younger population. Current estimates are for lower median age for non-european areas of the world (on average) than for Europe even by 2100. Including for India. So you will be seeing relative demographic rise of non-europeans vis a vis europeans up to at least 2200.

    Euros were a third of the world population in the 19th century and will to drop to around 7 % by 2100, and drop further by 2200. Maybe 5 %, maybe less, depending on how demographic transition goes.

    Similar % in SA resulted to loss of power and crack down upon them.

    So yeah, it is a tide that will put them in minority status almost everywhere, and they will lose lots of power too.

    Replies: @Anatoly Karlin

    , @Feryl
    @Anatoly Karlin

    In the US, the massive conservative rural areas of the South/Midwest, and many of the conservative white working class suburbs of the South and Midwest are of heavily Protestant NW European white descent. Interestingly though, Brits/Celts/Germans in New England and the Western states (the non-coastal Western states used to be as conservative as the Midwest, but that changed after about 2000) are more liberal.

    It used to be that non-WASP whites of large metro areas of the Northern US, plus Scots-Irish white Southerners, would band together to stop snooty Republicans from selling America out. But that coalition has been fraying since the 1964 Civil Rights act. In fact, since 2012 the Democrats have shed virtually all rural and suburban white working class support outside of New England, and very few old-stock white Southerners trust the Democrats anymore. It seems as if class and race now trumps ideology, as the Dems now openly state their desire to be rid of lower class whites whose interests and values have been diverging further and further away from the Anglo Zionist aristocrat/New Left Frankenstein monster.

  14. While there are some people who may obsess about Jews and overemphasize them in some contexts, on wokeness you cannot ignore the Jewish question and expect to make a thorough analysis.

    • Agree: Coconuts
  15. Non-nuclear smaller Powers that do offer up token resistance will be crushed by Woke Mil

    Globalisation results in proliferation of weapons technologies, thus making it far harder for western militaries to interfere, unlike in colonial times.

    The current nuclearisation of the US and the UK militaries the result of conventional military weakness.

    Moreover, it looks very possible that the NPT regime will collapse in the future, as non-western countries gain in military and economic power and western countries are in relative decline

    It it thus very possible that we are looking at the something more similar to the world of Dune, where most ruling houses posses nuclear weapons.

  16. @Passer by
    Karlin is again trying to sound controversial in order to bring more attention to himself, not because he realy thought about what he was talking about.

    One simple point why Karlin is wrong and why i don't expect much liberalism among non-europeans: greater inbreeding.

    More inbreeding in turn results in more selfish and clannish behavior among non-europeans, as well as low levels of altruism.

    https://hbdchick.wordpress.com/2011/03/04/inbreeding-and-natl-iq/

    Replies: @Anatoly Karlin, @EldnahYm

    Is inbreeding increasing among third worlders? Given the rates of urbanization, I would expect inbreeding to decrease over time in most populations. So I think AK’s points will increasingly apply in the third world even if what you say is right.

    • Replies: @Passer by
    @EldnahYm

    Dunno, but i'm hearing about some minorities being quite inbred in the UK. Pakistanis for sure.

    https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/591577/British-Pakistanis-13-times-more-disabled-children

    There are views that Christianity decreased inbreeding in Medieval Europe, and set the stage for its rise, so the decline of Christianity may have an opposite effect.

    Replies: @songbird

  17. Well, what you write about has been humoursly described by Pelevin in a few of his novels.

    SNUFF, Love for three Zuckerbrins, The art of subtle contacts, Sol invictus all revolve more or less around a similar topic.

    Some of his novels will never be translated in English for obvious reasons of non-PC trolling, of which Pelevin is a consummate master.

    On a less amusing and more depressing note, Judeo-Christian Western Civilization has metastasized into a more aggressive cancer than it was in the last 2000 years. This Civilization has always had an inhuman transcendental teleology. Today we replace building the “New Jerusalem ” with “building AGI and going into space”, but in fact it is the same accelerationist package that has underwent and is still undergoing a dialectical evolution.

    On the bright side: perhaps you will end up producing the second coming of the “Simulation Christ ” as an AI, but probably not. Our survival as a species is stretched thin. Something gotta give…

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Bashibuzuk


    On the bright side: perhaps you will end up producing the second coming of the “Simulation Christ ” as an AI, but probably not. Our survival as a species is stretched thin. Something gotta give…
     
    Televangelical cable TV stations already abound. Even within the ever growing and mega amphitheater like non-denominational "churches" are huge TV screens bleating out the preacher's message, reemphasizing the message similar to an Orwellian apocalyptical image. The world is moaning its disgust with the current situation, spewing out dark messages with pandemics, hurricane destruction, fires, floods, and murders abounding everywhere. Seriously, doesn't it all really sound like the end is in sight as depicted within the old and new testaments?

    https://en.buypopart.com/Art.nsf/O/8XYK6C/$File/Max-Ernst-Europe-after-the-Rain-II.jpg

    The late great planet earth?

    I'm getting ready to go to my little Orthodox church - "In god I trust". :-)

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

  18. I actually think the nationalist right have been the biggest losers of the pandemic. Opposition to the lockdown has mainly come from an odd alliance of anti-lockdown conservatives, BLM and ANTIFA. I would have thought that leading the anti-lockdown movement would be the natural territory of the Alt-Right/nationalists, but in reality they have been surprisingly absent from such movements.

    The pandemic has made it clear that peoples’ allegiances are more complex than simply being along racial and nationality lines. Many right wing types are forming alliances with non-whites and immigrants over the lockdown when previously such a notion would have been absurd.

    • Replies: @utu
    @Europe Europa

    Nationalist right missed the opportunity that the pandemic presented the most by opposing the countermeasures which were in essence nationalistic about protecting your country and your people from viral contagion that came form abroad. Borders could have been closed and immigration could have been frozen and the nature of external enemy could have been articulated. Instead the Rightoids with their libertarian streak dominated by opposing concerted actions and once again demonstrating that they always miss the big picture by their inability to think in terms of group interests forever caught in the prisoner dilemma of losing options determined by short-term personal self interest.

    Replies: @marquess

    , @utu
    @Europe Europa


    https://www.unz.com/pcockburn/boris-johnson-is-as-incompetent-as-general-haig-at-the-somme/#comment-4358636
    I think people do not realize what a great opportunity for a nationalist movement was presented by the Covid-19. It was godsend. You had an external enemy that was China, you had an emergency that justified shutting down border and stopping immigration and proceeding with overdue deportations and you could unite people around a common good, which was saving lives of fellow Americans by fighting the epidemic that would require quick and short term strict lockdown. It was a time to emulate Taiwan if not China. It was possible even for Trump if he clearly articulated what was at stake and was the objective. If Trump went with the strategy of virus elimination he would force the hand of Democrats to play the role of idiots and covid truthers. But Trump with a great help from Democrats blew it. The only part that he did not miss was to make some noise about China’s culpability.
     
    , @marquess
    @Europe Europa


    The pandemic has made it clear that peoples’ allegiances are more complex than simply being along racial and nationality lines. Many right wing types are forming alliances with non-whites and immigrants over the lockdown when previously such a notion would have been absurd.
     
    Actually I believe it demonstrates that people's allegiances largely fall along racial/nationality lines.

    With increasing diversity in a polity, you see a decline in "asabiya" and more spiteful behavior.

    The Right in the US serves in large part as an implicitly white identity. It views the Left which dominates the media and public health elites as relatively less white and hostile to white American interests and culture. Thus it is reflexively skeptical of policy coming from the media and public health elites. Furthermore, as the overall population is increasingly non-white, there is subconsciously less concern about the general public and welfare. It is not necessarily a conscious, deliberate, "racist" hostility. More a subconscious decline of "asabiya."

    Blacks have long been skeptical of vaccines and other policies for the same reason: that they are devised and come from an out-group, namely whites. Blacks are the group most skeptical and opposed to vaccines.

    So the alliance between Right wing whites and other groups like blacks over the lockdowns and vaccines is not a great mystery.
  19. @Anatoly Karlin
    @Passer by

    Many of the most liberal areas of the US today are populated in areas of Med and East European settlement during late 19C/early 20C.

    As far as I can recall, GSS data doesn't suggest Americans of Germanic or Anglo descent are much more liberal (IIRC it was actually the converse).

    ***

    "Showing up" is ultimately more important than irrelevant trifles like "liberalism" or especially "conservatism" which can mean all manner of different things across mere decades let alone centuries.

    But no evidence that "greater inbreeding" affects that directly. (Apart from more inbred peoples tending to be duller and more remote, so develop/demographically transition later).

    Ladakh, and Jammu and Kashmir in India, now has one its lowest TFRs. https://www.unz.com/akarlin/india-fertility-falls-below-replacement/

    Replies: @Passer by, @Feryl

    “Showing up” is ultimately more important than irrelevant trifles like “liberalism” or especially “conservatism”

    They are not irrelevant, because you suggested that TPTB will be able to reformat the world in their image, and i told you why i don’t see that happening. Go live in migrant area in Europe and see how “reformated” it is. These are not the same people, and their behavior is not the same to that of euros. Sorry.

    As for showing up, even if somehow TFRs equalise by 2100, which i don’t fully believe, there is a demographic tailwind in nonwestern countries due to their younger population. At equal TFR, you get higher birth rate for the younger population. Current estimates are for lower median age for non-european areas of the world (on average) than for Europe even by 2100. Including for India. So you will be seeing relative demographic rise of non-europeans vis a vis europeans up to at least 2200.

    Euros were a third of the world population in the 19th century and will to drop to around 7 % by 2100, and drop further by 2200. Maybe 5 %, maybe less, depending on how demographic transition goes.

    Similar % in SA resulted to loss of power and crack down upon them.

    So yeah, it is a tide that will put them in minority status almost everywhere, and they will lose lots of power too.

    • Agree: Coconuts
    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    @Passer by

    In 2100 you might have 800M Europeans and 3.5B Africans, sure.

    But it's also not out of the question that the average (native-born) TFR of said Europeans will be 2.7 and 1.3 for the Africans.

    This is hard to comprehend, because people's mental model of demographics tends to the static and even when things do change, it often takes many years to update.

    Replies: @Passer by, @Ridiculous

  20. @Shortsword
    Does this count as white people scheming to commit nonwhite genocide?

    Replies: @Europe Europa

    Does it count as genocide when the “genociders” also want to genocide themselves in the process?

    Most of these whites also want white countries to become coffee coloured “woke” cesspits.

    • Agree: Firefinga
  21. @EldnahYm
    @Passer by

    Is inbreeding increasing among third worlders? Given the rates of urbanization, I would expect inbreeding to decrease over time in most populations. So I think AK's points will increasingly apply in the third world even if what you say is right.

    Replies: @Passer by

    Dunno, but i’m hearing about some minorities being quite inbred in the UK. Pakistanis for sure.

    https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/591577/British-Pakistanis-13-times-more-disabled-children

    There are views that Christianity decreased inbreeding in Medieval Europe, and set the stage for its rise, so the decline of Christianity may have an opposite effect.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @Passer by

    If society enters into competitive breeding, I wonder if Euros will try to marry their third cousins (to have greater fertility.)

  22. Race-mixing sanctioned by woke culture. White cohorts will be continually sapped by it. Brazilification still on the cards and remains the most probable outcome.

  23. @Europe Europa
    I actually think the nationalist right have been the biggest losers of the pandemic. Opposition to the lockdown has mainly come from an odd alliance of anti-lockdown conservatives, BLM and ANTIFA. I would have thought that leading the anti-lockdown movement would be the natural territory of the Alt-Right/nationalists, but in reality they have been surprisingly absent from such movements.

    The pandemic has made it clear that peoples' allegiances are more complex than simply being along racial and nationality lines. Many right wing types are forming alliances with non-whites and immigrants over the lockdown when previously such a notion would have been absurd.

    Replies: @utu, @utu, @marquess

    Nationalist right missed the opportunity that the pandemic presented the most by opposing the countermeasures which were in essence nationalistic about protecting your country and your people from viral contagion that came form abroad. Borders could have been closed and immigration could have been frozen and the nature of external enemy could have been articulated. Instead the Rightoids with their libertarian streak dominated by opposing concerted actions and once again demonstrating that they always miss the big picture by their inability to think in terms of group interests forever caught in the prisoner dilemma of losing options determined by short-term personal self interest.

    • Agree: AP
    • Replies: @marquess
    @utu


    Nationalist right missed the opportunity that the pandemic presented the most by opposing the countermeasures which were in essence nationalistic about protecting your country and your people from viral contagion that came form abroad. Borders could have been closed and immigration could have been frozen and the nature of external enemy could have been articulated. Instead the Rightoids with their libertarian streak dominated by opposing concerted actions and once again demonstrating that they always miss the big picture by their inability to think in terms of group interests forever caught in the prisoner dilemma of losing options determined by short-term personal self interest.
     
    In the US at least, that was how Covid-19 was originally interpreted by the Right. That it would support Trump and his agenda, anti-immigrationism, hawkishness against China, etc.

    But after a few months, it began to dawn on the Right that Covid-19, the lockdowns could hurt Trump's election chances. Especially since the media, medical, and public health establishments tend to be dominated by the Left. So that is why the Right in the US became skeptical or hostile to the response and lockdowns. Rightoids used conspiracy theorizing and libertarianism to rationalize their opposition, but that was mainly post hoc rationalization. The main driver for their skepticism and opposition was that it would be bad for Trump's election chances and the Right's political power.

    Replies: @utu

  24. @Europe Europa
    I actually think the nationalist right have been the biggest losers of the pandemic. Opposition to the lockdown has mainly come from an odd alliance of anti-lockdown conservatives, BLM and ANTIFA. I would have thought that leading the anti-lockdown movement would be the natural territory of the Alt-Right/nationalists, but in reality they have been surprisingly absent from such movements.

    The pandemic has made it clear that peoples' allegiances are more complex than simply being along racial and nationality lines. Many right wing types are forming alliances with non-whites and immigrants over the lockdown when previously such a notion would have been absurd.

    Replies: @utu, @utu, @marquess

    https://www.unz.com/pcockburn/boris-johnson-is-as-incompetent-as-general-haig-at-the-somme/#comment-4358636
    I think people do not realize what a great opportunity for a nationalist movement was presented by the Covid-19. It was godsend. You had an external enemy that was China, you had an emergency that justified shutting down border and stopping immigration and proceeding with overdue deportations and you could unite people around a common good, which was saving lives of fellow Americans by fighting the epidemic that would require quick and short term strict lockdown. It was a time to emulate Taiwan if not China. It was possible even for Trump if he clearly articulated what was at stake and was the objective. If Trump went with the strategy of virus elimination he would force the hand of Democrats to play the role of idiots and covid truthers. But Trump with a great help from Democrats blew it. The only part that he did not miss was to make some noise about China’s culpability.

  25. fertility rate in China,Iran,Turkey,Malaysia,India and most Latin American countries( including Mexico and Brazil) is below replacement rate

  26. Non-nuclear smaller Powers that do offer up token resistance will be crushed by Woke Mil, which will remain functional at least so far as suppressing colonial revolts goes.

    Cubans seem to have been effective in Angola, but I think it depends on what sort of countries revolt.

    The US army was destroyed in the Philippines in 1941/1942 and arguably it was not woke. It just had bad leadership. Leadership that it was un-PC to fire, and which was instead promoted. British Empire got a resounding defeat in Singapore too. Basically, the same problem. But imagine how much worse leadership must be now.

  27. @Passer by
    @EldnahYm

    Dunno, but i'm hearing about some minorities being quite inbred in the UK. Pakistanis for sure.

    https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/591577/British-Pakistanis-13-times-more-disabled-children

    There are views that Christianity decreased inbreeding in Medieval Europe, and set the stage for its rise, so the decline of Christianity may have an opposite effect.

    Replies: @songbird

    If society enters into competitive breeding, I wonder if Euros will try to marry their third cousins (to have greater fertility.)

  28. @Bashibuzuk
    Well, what you write about has been humoursly described by Pelevin in a few of his novels.

    SNUFF, Love for three Zuckerbrins, The art of subtle contacts, Sol invictus all revolve more or less around a similar topic.

    Some of his novels will never be translated in English for obvious reasons of non-PC trolling, of which Pelevin is a consummate master.

    On a less amusing and more depressing note, Judeo-Christian Western Civilization has metastasized into a more aggressive cancer than it was in the last 2000 years. This Civilization has always had an inhuman transcendental teleology. Today we replace building the "New Jerusalem " with "building AGI and going into space", but in fact it is the same accelerationist package that has underwent and is still undergoing a dialectical evolution.

    On the bright side: perhaps you will end up producing the second coming of the "Simulation Christ " as an AI, but probably not. Our survival as a species is stretched thin. Something gotta give...

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    On the bright side: perhaps you will end up producing the second coming of the “Simulation Christ ” as an AI, but probably not. Our survival as a species is stretched thin. Something gotta give…

    Televangelical cable TV stations already abound. Even within the ever growing and mega amphitheater like non-denominational “churches” are huge TV screens bleating out the preacher’s message, reemphasizing the message similar to an Orwellian apocalyptical image. The world is moaning its disgust with the current situation, spewing out dark messages with pandemics, hurricane destruction, fires, floods, and murders abounding everywhere. Seriously, doesn’t it all really sound like the end is in sight as depicted within the old and new testaments?

    The late great planet earth?

    I’m getting ready to go to my little Orthodox church – “In god I trust”. 🙂

    • LOL: sher singh
    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @Mr. Hack


    Seriously, doesn’t it all really sound like the end is in sight as depicted within the old and new testaments?
     
    This is what I call prophetic programming.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  29. Wokeness as white supremacy — For appropriate values of “white”.

    Just sayin’

  30. @SFG
    Pretty funny and I do agree Woke is just the next iteration of Christian universalism (albeit without a God or a Christ but a race of devils and plenty of sin), but:

    1. Europe and America have fewer people so the rest of the world would be decaying from a higher baseline even if demographic collapse occurs harder there.

    2. A lot of the rise in LGBT is bisexual women, who may be gaining 'Wokemon points' ("me and my BFF are going out! we're totally not straightcishets!") but still make families with men. (Men can't do this because straight women are much more leery of bi men due to the HIV risk.)

    3. You're forgetting about China. Over a billion and not particularly woke, and with plenty of their own culture and history if they want to use that for nationalistic purposes. Was it you or AE who said the one thing China doesn't have to worry about when making engineers and programmers is having too many Asians?

    Replies: @Jake, @songbird, @JohnPlywood

    Pretty funny and I do agree Woke is just the next iteration of Christian universalism (albeit without a God or a Christ but a race of devils and plenty of sin)

    Henry Harpending’s idea of witchcraft seems much more appropriate.

  31. @Passer by
    @Anatoly Karlin


    “Showing up” is ultimately more important than irrelevant trifles like “liberalism” or especially “conservatism”
     
    They are not irrelevant, because you suggested that TPTB will be able to reformat the world in their image, and i told you why i don't see that happening. Go live in migrant area in Europe and see how "reformated" it is. These are not the same people, and their behavior is not the same to that of euros. Sorry.

    As for showing up, even if somehow TFRs equalise by 2100, which i don't fully believe, there is a demographic tailwind in nonwestern countries due to their younger population. At equal TFR, you get higher birth rate for the younger population. Current estimates are for lower median age for non-european areas of the world (on average) than for Europe even by 2100. Including for India. So you will be seeing relative demographic rise of non-europeans vis a vis europeans up to at least 2200.

    Euros were a third of the world population in the 19th century and will to drop to around 7 % by 2100, and drop further by 2200. Maybe 5 %, maybe less, depending on how demographic transition goes.

    Similar % in SA resulted to loss of power and crack down upon them.

    So yeah, it is a tide that will put them in minority status almost everywhere, and they will lose lots of power too.

    Replies: @Anatoly Karlin

    In 2100 you might have 800M Europeans and 3.5B Africans, sure.

    But it’s also not out of the question that the average (native-born) TFR of said Europeans will be 2.7 and 1.3 for the Africans.

    This is hard to comprehend, because people’s mental model of demographics tends to the static and even when things do change, it often takes many years to update.

    • Replies: @Passer by
    @Anatoly Karlin

    This never happened in the last one thousand years so that i'm not a supporter of breeder theories and suddenly spiking TFR due to breeder selection.

    That is, TFR was either stable or declining through the many years even though there was constant selection pressure to increase.

    In other words, environmental pressures are far more stronger than genetic pressures, and overwhelm them. This is why TFR has been on a decline for the last 2oo years too (env pressures overwhelming genetic pressures).

    Not to mention the trend of ever increasing age of first birth, which should further negatively impact fertility, as older people are more likely to run into secondary and third infertility issues, thus preventing them from having a second or third child.

    Replies: @Anatoly Karlin

    , @Ridiculous
    @Anatoly Karlin

    No, this is hard to comprehend because it’s ridiculous and over-simplistic.

    Extrapolating how SSAs are acting in the Western world about social issues onto, say, Arabs, is devoid of logic.

    SSAs are far more promiscuous and gender equal than Arabs. In fact, in Christian areas of SSA they’ve developed fairly liberal sexual mores when you consider their level of development, not due to Western influence, it’s just natural genetic predisposition.

    Also the reservoir of non-Whites around the world already is multiple times higher than that of Whites. If you assume that wokeness is just going to increase exponentially over the next few decades then White countries are going to be so flooded and admixed that by the time your theory takes root the composition of the population will look closer to Mexico.

    I’d also love to see some in-depth sources on Slavic and Latin/Romance populations being more liberal in America than Germanic populations. That sounds very unlikely. Especially for Italians. They are not by any means more left than Germanic populations when you take Celtic and Southern English Scotch-Irish descendants out of the mix.

    Replies: @Agathoklis

  32. Thank you Anatoly, this is good material for my proposition to utterly and completely exterminate all life in the western hemisphere as cultural-genetic-mental self-defense.

    • Agree: sher singh
  33. 3.5 trillion Africans?

    Nope. Mass starvation before they get there. [AK: Lol, meant to write billion.]

    • Replies: @songbird
    @Joe Magarac

    I honestly thought he was poking fun at projections.

    I mean, look at pictures of Lagos. Does it seem remotely possible that it could become a city of 100 million? The first world (will it still exist?) would need to be doing food drops because the roads would be too terrible to truck in supplies.

  34. But it’s also not out of the question that the average (native-born) TFR of said Europeans will be 2.7

    In which both parents are actually white? It’s nice to think so, but most white-white couplings are ‘incidental’ (rather than deliberate – where both parents are conscious of their refusal to breed outside the race), so there’s probably not much genetic tendency towards racial ethnocentrism being passed down, even if the TFR of these couplings is greater (which I’m not even sure it is).

    And of course, the more mixing that takes place, the more the resultant products seem closer to whites and the more eligible they become as partners even for those whites who do have an aversion to breeding out. Extend that logic out far enough – ie generation after generation of it – and couple it with the increasing psychological difficulty of ‘being racist’ in the midst of woke social values, and fears of total white submersion appear eminently reasonable.

  35. @Anatoly Karlin
    @Passer by

    In 2100 you might have 800M Europeans and 3.5B Africans, sure.

    But it's also not out of the question that the average (native-born) TFR of said Europeans will be 2.7 and 1.3 for the Africans.

    This is hard to comprehend, because people's mental model of demographics tends to the static and even when things do change, it often takes many years to update.

    Replies: @Passer by, @Ridiculous

    This never happened in the last one thousand years so that i’m not a supporter of breeder theories and suddenly spiking TFR due to breeder selection.

    That is, TFR was either stable or declining through the many years even though there was constant selection pressure to increase.

    In other words, environmental pressures are far more stronger than genetic pressures, and overwhelm them. This is why TFR has been on a decline for the last 2oo years too (env pressures overwhelming genetic pressures).

    Not to mention the trend of ever increasing age of first birth, which should further negatively impact fertility, as older people are more likely to run into secondary and third infertility issues, thus preventing them from having a second or third child.

    • Agree: AltanBakshi
    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    @Passer by


    This never happened in the last one thousand years so that i’m not a supporter of breeder theories and suddenly spiking TFR due to breeder selection.
     
    A prolonged period of post-Malthusian resource abundance is an absolute novelty in the human experience and is required for this to happen. History can't be a guide in this particular instance. This was discussed at length in my series.

    Replies: @Passer by, @Passer by, @Mr. XYZ

  36. @Passer by
    @Anatoly Karlin

    This never happened in the last one thousand years so that i'm not a supporter of breeder theories and suddenly spiking TFR due to breeder selection.

    That is, TFR was either stable or declining through the many years even though there was constant selection pressure to increase.

    In other words, environmental pressures are far more stronger than genetic pressures, and overwhelm them. This is why TFR has been on a decline for the last 2oo years too (env pressures overwhelming genetic pressures).

    Not to mention the trend of ever increasing age of first birth, which should further negatively impact fertility, as older people are more likely to run into secondary and third infertility issues, thus preventing them from having a second or third child.

    Replies: @Anatoly Karlin

    This never happened in the last one thousand years so that i’m not a supporter of breeder theories and suddenly spiking TFR due to breeder selection.

    A prolonged period of post-Malthusian resource abundance is an absolute novelty in the human experience and is required for this to happen. History can’t be a guide in this particular instance. This was discussed at length in my series.

    • Replies: @Passer by
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Considering that the mere introduction of a pill dropped TFR nearly two times in the period of 10 years, i consider environmental pressures to be far stronger than genetic pressures.

    And there are many env pressures working to lower fertility, such as the increasing age of first birth, increased education, urbanisation, government/societal/media propaganda, etc.

    Not to mention that many of the breeders children leave their group and join the normies, which will work especially under widespread school and societal propaganda to liberalise society and convert the more conservative ppl away from their breeder cult.

    And you can rest assured that this is what the propaganda for euro areas will be. No one will let them do anything. They are not in charge. They are the mice in the experiment. Any attempts to consolidate conservatism will be destroyed by TPTB.

    So stop trying to be original. No one will let them do anything or allow for anything conservative to consolidate. It is not even the white liberals that are in charge. It is someone smarter than them.

    Replies: @Anatoly Karlin

    , @Passer by
    @Anatoly Karlin

    And btw you take a breeder from Africa with TFR of 6 and thousands years history of heavy breeding and put it in the US and you instantly get a TFR for its children of 1,8.

    That's the power of environmental pressures.

    So please.

    Replies: @AP

    , @Mr. XYZ
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Are you suggesting that countries that are already severely overpopulated (for instance, both India and Bangladesh) are considerably less likely to experience an eventual huge future fertility boom? Because that would actually make a lot of sense.

  37. This view is overly nihilistic.

    Wokeness is only spreading in the west and it’s allies but an alternate to the west’s unipolar world is emerging.

    So those outside of the Five Eyes countries will just pick the alternate to wokeness coming from China/Russia.

    The core Anglo countries will probably see wokeness accelerate until a bad crash but will still see after effects. But even then it is foolish to see wokeness increase on a linear scale.

  38. @Bashibuzuk
    @Jake

    https://www.nuntiare.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/CristoRevolucionario.jpg

    Sorry to disappoint...

    Replies: @Carlo, @songbird, @RSDB

    Not a valid argument. These are stupid Liberation Movement, they are not even Catholic though they pretend to be. The same applies to the current pope, who has some leftist ideas.

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @Carlo

    I am sorry to be so blunt, but go to Gospels and read 'em again. Jesus was a (proto) Woke.

    Replies: @Coconuts, @Beckow, @Gerard.Gerard

  39. @Carlo
    @Bashibuzuk

    Not a valid argument. These are stupid Liberation Movement, they are not even Catholic though they pretend to be. The same applies to the current pope, who has some leftist ideas.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

    I am sorry to be so blunt, but go to Gospels and read ’em again. Jesus was a (proto) Woke.

    • Replies: @Coconuts
    @Bashibuzuk


    Whether considered as a doctrine, or an historical fact, or a movement, Socialism, if it remains truly Socialism, even after it has yielded to truth and justice on the points which we have mentioned, cannot be reconciled with the teachings of the Catholic Church because its concept of society itself is utterly foreign to Christian truth…

    If Socialism, like all errors, contains some truth (which, moreover, the Supreme Pontiffs have never denied), it is based nevertheless on a theory of human society peculiar to itself and irreconcilable with true Christianity. Religious socialism, Christian socialism, are contradictory terms; no one can be at the same time a good Catholic and a true socialist. (Pius XI, Quadragesimo Anno 117, 120)

     

    I think too many leftists fell out of helicopters and things of that kind in the 1970s and 80s, this led to a certain amount of push back against traditional Christian teaching in Latin American countries and the rise of things like Liberation Theology, but this is a heresy:


    Communism is intrinsically wrong, and no one who would save Christian civilization may collaborate with it in any undertaking whatsoever. Those who permit themselves to be deceived into lending their aid towards the triumph of Communism in their own country, will be the first to fall victims of their error. And the greater the antiquity and grandeur of the Christian civilization in the regions where Communism successfully penetrates, so much more devastating will be the hatred displayed by the godless. (Pius XI, Divini Redemptoris 58)
     
    , @Beckow
    @Bashibuzuk

    Gospels are a sedative, they were meant for suffering masses with focus on women. They worked in gathering a flock. Of course, the Christian institutions never took any of the woke stuff seriously. That was the saving grace of Christianity until recently. Today I am not sure if Western Christianity has much to offer.

    The problem with all current conservatism is that it is by definition conserving the dominant liberal-woke world. Why would anyone want to do that?

    The other problem is that economic conservatism has been taken over by libertarian morons (=classical liberals) who have no idea that what they are advocating is a material basis for out-of-control liberalism. It is also a political poison: today we cannot function without some socialism. By fanatically opposing it, the modern right is marginalising itself (see Trump's fate). They bought into a Hollywood version of individual liberty that has never existed and never will. But they are unable to even see it - as we can see among many on this blog. I suspect the West is f..ed...they have been check-mated by their own multiplying idiocies...

    Replies: @dfordoom

    , @Gerard.Gerard
    @Bashibuzuk

    STFU you duplicitous, Jewish Vietnamese-Israeli swine.

    Trying to impose American poison gutter-culture and its negative and disproportionate influence ( partially because of its blasphemous scumbag pseudo-messianic mania) on the west and rest of the world ( while strangely not looking to impose some of its rare positive things like architecture and distinctly American cars on much of Europe)......... onto Jesus and his humanity is as false and low as it gets you POS.

    You're tri-gender, ultra-feminist bore...... so I don't see you trying to attack the Jewish-friendly Old Testament, and it's promotion of feminist, incestual date-rape ( end of destruction of Gommorah I think)

    Get out of my sight

  40. @Anatoly Karlin
    @Passer by


    This never happened in the last one thousand years so that i’m not a supporter of breeder theories and suddenly spiking TFR due to breeder selection.
     
    A prolonged period of post-Malthusian resource abundance is an absolute novelty in the human experience and is required for this to happen. History can't be a guide in this particular instance. This was discussed at length in my series.

    Replies: @Passer by, @Passer by, @Mr. XYZ

    Considering that the mere introduction of a pill dropped TFR nearly two times in the period of 10 years, i consider environmental pressures to be far stronger than genetic pressures.

    And there are many env pressures working to lower fertility, such as the increasing age of first birth, increased education, urbanisation, government/societal/media propaganda, etc.

    Not to mention that many of the breeders children leave their group and join the normies, which will work especially under widespread school and societal propaganda to liberalise society and convert the more conservative ppl away from their breeder cult.

    And you can rest assured that this is what the propaganda for euro areas will be. No one will let them do anything. They are not in charge. They are the mice in the experiment. Any attempts to consolidate conservatism will be destroyed by TPTB.

    So stop trying to be original. No one will let them do anything or allow for anything conservative to consolidate. It is not even the white liberals that are in charge. It is someone smarter than them.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    @Passer by

    Will all cultural/technological changes during 21C work to suppress fertility further and indefinitely cancel out selection for "breeder" genes? It's not impossible - we can't foresee the future, after all. But it seems unlikely.

    Replies: @Blinky Bill, @Passer by, @dfordoom

  41. @Bashibuzuk
    @Jake

    https://www.nuntiare.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/CristoRevolucionario.jpg

    Sorry to disappoint...

    Replies: @Carlo, @songbird, @RSDB

    Is it really a surprise to see revolutionary fervor in Latin America? IMO, big mistake to divorce religion from its ethnic context. (doing so, in fact, a symptom of universalism) A Muslim Malay is hardly the same thing as a Wahhabist Arab. Meanwhile, Korean Christians tend to be members of prosperity churches, very different to traditional Euro Christianity.

    I think people like Yarvin need to be treated with a grain of salt. If we are living in the new Christian fervor, then how does one explain the following: I see a fingerprint on countless Hollywood movies – I think to myself, this is intentionally insulting to Christians, obscene, and subversive, who created it? Well, curiously, it never seems to be Christians or even gentile atheists.

    Is political culture distinct from Hollywood? Rather, seems to be a large degree of convergence.

  42. @Mr. Hack
    @Bashibuzuk


    On the bright side: perhaps you will end up producing the second coming of the “Simulation Christ ” as an AI, but probably not. Our survival as a species is stretched thin. Something gotta give…
     
    Televangelical cable TV stations already abound. Even within the ever growing and mega amphitheater like non-denominational "churches" are huge TV screens bleating out the preacher's message, reemphasizing the message similar to an Orwellian apocalyptical image. The world is moaning its disgust with the current situation, spewing out dark messages with pandemics, hurricane destruction, fires, floods, and murders abounding everywhere. Seriously, doesn't it all really sound like the end is in sight as depicted within the old and new testaments?

    https://en.buypopart.com/Art.nsf/O/8XYK6C/$File/Max-Ernst-Europe-after-the-Rain-II.jpg

    The late great planet earth?

    I'm getting ready to go to my little Orthodox church - "In god I trust". :-)

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

    Seriously, doesn’t it all really sound like the end is in sight as depicted within the old and new testaments?

    This is what I call prophetic programming.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Bashibuzuk

    What I call, a prophecy of things to come.

    Do Buddhists believe in the eternity of the soul? Adepts seem to be seeking Samsara in the here and now, from what I've understood from our discussions herein. But then I've read that in order to achieve nirvana, one has to abandon samsara?

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @AltanBakshi

  43. @Joe Magarac
    3.5 trillion Africans?

    Nope. Mass starvation before they get there. [AK: Lol, meant to write billion.]

    Replies: @songbird

    I honestly thought he was poking fun at projections.

    I mean, look at pictures of Lagos. Does it seem remotely possible that it could become a city of 100 million? The first world (will it still exist?) would need to be doing food drops because the roads would be too terrible to truck in supplies.

  44. @Anatoly Karlin
    @Passer by


    This never happened in the last one thousand years so that i’m not a supporter of breeder theories and suddenly spiking TFR due to breeder selection.
     
    A prolonged period of post-Malthusian resource abundance is an absolute novelty in the human experience and is required for this to happen. History can't be a guide in this particular instance. This was discussed at length in my series.

    Replies: @Passer by, @Passer by, @Mr. XYZ

    And btw you take a breeder from Africa with TFR of 6 and thousands years history of heavy breeding and put it in the US and you instantly get a TFR for its children of 1,8.

    That’s the power of environmental pressures.

    So please.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Passer by

    More like cultural. As recently as the 1930s Quebecois were having families with ten children quite regularly. Now their TFR is well below average, even for Canada. Environmental pressure did not change, mentality did.

    Replies: @Passer by

  45. @Passer by
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Considering that the mere introduction of a pill dropped TFR nearly two times in the period of 10 years, i consider environmental pressures to be far stronger than genetic pressures.

    And there are many env pressures working to lower fertility, such as the increasing age of first birth, increased education, urbanisation, government/societal/media propaganda, etc.

    Not to mention that many of the breeders children leave their group and join the normies, which will work especially under widespread school and societal propaganda to liberalise society and convert the more conservative ppl away from their breeder cult.

    And you can rest assured that this is what the propaganda for euro areas will be. No one will let them do anything. They are not in charge. They are the mice in the experiment. Any attempts to consolidate conservatism will be destroyed by TPTB.

    So stop trying to be original. No one will let them do anything or allow for anything conservative to consolidate. It is not even the white liberals that are in charge. It is someone smarter than them.

    Replies: @Anatoly Karlin

    Will all cultural/technological changes during 21C work to suppress fertility further and indefinitely cancel out selection for “breeder” genes? It’s not impossible – we can’t foresee the future, after all. But it seems unlikely.

    • Replies: @Blinky Bill
    @Anatoly Karlin

    https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQNi9AHF7INOn3dE-qCLzxW5pW-z8S5OXtqkQ&usqp.jpg

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @Daniel Chieh

    , @Passer by
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Its not unlikely for the West considering who is in charge. And it is not the woke whites as you implied. Not because you are naive, but just because you wanted to sound daring and interesting.

    Truth is more important for me than sounding cool and daring just to get people triggered.

    Replies: @Boomthorkell

    , @dfordoom
    @Anatoly Karlin


    Will all cultural/technological changes during 21C work to suppress fertility further
     
    Not necessarily. Helicopter parenting is a major factor in depressing fertility. Helicopter parenting is just too exhausting for more than one child. Self-driving cars that actually work would free people from having to drive their kids to soccer practice or dancing class or whatever. Robots might be capable of taking over child supervisory duties. Technology could make helicopter parenting a lot less work.

    In the West we have made child-rearing very labour-intensive but technology could change that.

    Replies: @Passer by

  46. I disagree with this interpretation.

    Firstly, the typical gentile white leftist is not really the intellectual and political driver of “Wokeness.” They are in an ancillary, supporting role. The intellectual content and energy derives mainly from higher verbal IQ and verbally aggressive, leftist Jewish Americans. The social and political energy derives mainly from blacks whose extroversion, aggression, shamelessness, etc. allow them to disproportionately influence and dominate the cultural, media, and political landscape.

    Generally, gentile white leftists lack the verbal intelligence and aggression, and aggressive personalities to dominate white conservatives and rightists and the broader public by themselves. You need higher verbal IQ Jewish Americans who can develop the sophisticated sounding arguments, talking points, theories that typically run circles around everyone else and leave them on the defensive and sputtering. You need aggressive and hostile blacks that intimidate and socially pressure into submission.

    Secondly, “Wokeness” can’t be said to be promoting the interests of whites. It is accelerating the elevation of blacks and aggressively promoting the interests and status of blacks. It is ultimately a form of “Black Supremacism”

  47. @Passer by
    @Anatoly Karlin

    And btw you take a breeder from Africa with TFR of 6 and thousands years history of heavy breeding and put it in the US and you instantly get a TFR for its children of 1,8.

    That's the power of environmental pressures.

    So please.

    Replies: @AP

    More like cultural. As recently as the 1930s Quebecois were having families with ten children quite regularly. Now their TFR is well below average, even for Canada. Environmental pressure did not change, mentality did.

    • Replies: @Passer by
    @AP

    Cultural = environmental. Mentality is formed by culture. Plus standard of living. The pill is part of environment. Now put one of their women in Mali where there is no contraception and she is regularly raped by her muslim husband and you will see how her TFR will spike to 7.

    Breeder genes, lol.

    Replies: @songbird

  48. @Anatoly Karlin
    @Passer by

    Will all cultural/technological changes during 21C work to suppress fertility further and indefinitely cancel out selection for "breeder" genes? It's not impossible - we can't foresee the future, after all. But it seems unlikely.

    Replies: @Blinky Bill, @Passer by, @dfordoom

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @Blinky Bill

    Horrible.

    Replies: @Blinky Bill, @sudden death, @songbird

    , @Daniel Chieh
    @Blinky Bill

    Perfect control of environment allows minimalization of any harmful alleles from being expressed in the womb, and avoidance of concerns like fetal alcohol syndrome. Imagine being able to move beyond the simple cottage industry of domestic production of humanity and replace it with industrialization.

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/paper-review-artificial-wombs/

    The promise of a new future is upon us.

    Replies: @Mr. XYZ, @FerW, @Reg Cæsar

  49. @Blinky Bill
    @Anatoly Karlin

    https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQNi9AHF7INOn3dE-qCLzxW5pW-z8S5OXtqkQ&usqp.jpg

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @Daniel Chieh

    Horrible.

    • Agree: Blinky Bill
    • Disagree: Mitleser, Daniel Chieh
    • Replies: @Blinky Bill
    @Bashibuzuk

    The usual suspects are to blame.

    https://media.eurekalert.org/multimedia_prod/pub/web/196582_web.jpg


    Researchers Matt Kemp and Haruo Usuda.

    , @sudden death
    @Bashibuzuk

    Is it actually somehow morally worse than "surrogate mother" technology of nowdays? Seems even kinda better...

    , @songbird
    @Bashibuzuk

    Depends on the context: maybe, this is a lot more realistic than generation ships, and it is what it would take to spread human life to the planets of other suns.

    Replies: @FerW

  50. @AP
    @Passer by

    More like cultural. As recently as the 1930s Quebecois were having families with ten children quite regularly. Now their TFR is well below average, even for Canada. Environmental pressure did not change, mentality did.

    Replies: @Passer by

    Cultural = environmental. Mentality is formed by culture. Plus standard of living. The pill is part of environment. Now put one of their women in Mali where there is no contraception and she is regularly raped by her muslim husband and you will see how her TFR will spike to 7.

    Breeder genes, lol.

    • Agree: AltanBakshi
    • Replies: @songbird
    @Passer by

    The Dorset and the Inuit largely lived in the same extreme environment. One was able to outcompete and eliminate the other though, due to its different culture.

    Replies: @Passer by

  51. @Anatoly Karlin
    @Passer by

    Will all cultural/technological changes during 21C work to suppress fertility further and indefinitely cancel out selection for "breeder" genes? It's not impossible - we can't foresee the future, after all. But it seems unlikely.

    Replies: @Blinky Bill, @Passer by, @dfordoom

    Its not unlikely for the West considering who is in charge. And it is not the woke whites as you implied. Not because you are naive, but just because you wanted to sound daring and interesting.

    Truth is more important for me than sounding cool and daring just to get people triggered.

    • Replies: @Boomthorkell
    @Passer by

    Is it truth, or locking onto a particular paradigm and insisting nothing is possible outside it, and thus, not worth the thought or attention to available statistics which show a potential future?

    Replies: @Passer by

  52. @Bashibuzuk
    @Blinky Bill

    Horrible.

    Replies: @Blinky Bill, @sudden death, @songbird

    The usual suspects are to blame.

    [MORE]

    Researchers Matt Kemp and Haruo Usuda.

  53. Are SJWs still a thing? I remember they were big on campuses around 2015 but I didn’t think they still existed.

    • LOL: EldnahYm
    • Replies: @Firefinga
    @AlexanderGrozny

    They have graduated in the meantime and fill slots in bureaucracy and business, mostly as woke.comissars, working towards fireing everybody who isn't fully commited to the gospel-of-woke.

    Remeber when people made fun of the blue-haired "snowflakes"? Yes, they are weaklings and helpless crybabies when alone and on their own. Unfortunately a lot of snowflakes can comprise an avalanche and that's exactly what's happening now.

    Replies: @AlexanderGrozny

  54. @Bashibuzuk
    @Blinky Bill

    Horrible.

    Replies: @Blinky Bill, @sudden death, @songbird

    Is it actually somehow morally worse than “surrogate mother” technology of nowdays? Seems even kinda better…

  55. @Bashibuzuk
    @Blinky Bill

    Horrible.

    Replies: @Blinky Bill, @sudden death, @songbird

    Depends on the context: maybe, this is a lot more realistic than generation ships, and it is what it would take to spread human life to the planets of other suns.

    • Replies: @FerW
    @songbird

    Bur the context in this article is clearly not related to galactic conquest. Just boring old families on our boring blue earth. It is dystopian and depressing to think that artificial breeding would be what's needed to raise fertility to healthy levels again, which, I guess, was Blinky Bill's tacit implication.

  56. Your hypothesis is probably correct. Commenter Kronos (and myself in a reply) have had some similar thoughts a while ago.

    https://www.unz.com/isteve/what-of-antifa-are-trans/#comment-4056500

    Basically you are making the connection between cultural darwinism and biological darwinism. Apparently Jonas Salk’s “survival of the wisest” concept is something in that line.

    • Replies: @A123
    @Brás Cubas

    The Fascist Stormtroopers of Antifa are the new blackshirts (1)


    Both Hitler and Mussolini were perhaps the original and most dedicated ideological warriors for social justice. But the German National Socialists and Italian Fascists represented more than a brutal force that sent stormtroopers and blackshirt thugs to shout down rivals, block free speech, break shop windows, throw tear gas at opponents, and bash heads. They also represented a nationalist, collectivist and Marxist-inspired ideology that sought a “socially just” welfare society by redistributing everyone’s wealth.
     
    You cannot have National Socialism without first having Socialism. Fascism is actually a form of far-left extremism. It is diametrically opposed to the fundamental concept of individual liberty that is core to the political right.

    The Fascist Stormtroopers of Antifa hate the idea of Constitutional Rights for individuals. To Antifa, all property belongs to the state. Invading and damaging personal property is consistent with their core Fascist belief system. Free Speech is also anathema to them. Those who dare to speak against their SJW authoritarian dogma must be silenced or coerced into conformity.

    PEACE 😇
    _______

    (1) https://www.lewrockwell.com/2019/11/lk-samuels/the-original-social-justice-warriors-hitler-and-mussolini/

    Replies: @Brás Cubas

  57. @Passer by
    @AP

    Cultural = environmental. Mentality is formed by culture. Plus standard of living. The pill is part of environment. Now put one of their women in Mali where there is no contraception and she is regularly raped by her muslim husband and you will see how her TFR will spike to 7.

    Breeder genes, lol.

    Replies: @songbird

    The Dorset and the Inuit largely lived in the same extreme environment. One was able to outcompete and eliminate the other though, due to its different culture.

    • Replies: @Passer by
    @songbird

    Culture is part of the environment one is living in, and for example you can have muslims and christians living in the same area. But they will be experiencing different environment in their lives due to that.

    All the things a culture makes you do is part of the environmental factors affecting you.

  58. 3) Once traditionalist barriers break down, as they always have, these Third World polities whose elites are in thrall to hegemonic Western culture will be culturally colonized to a much greater degree and more destructively so than was ever the case within the American noosphere, in which responses and adaptations to woke memes have co-evolved.

    I think there are different strands two main strands within Wokeness, the Queer/Feminism/LGBT strand and the Post-Colonial/Critical Race/Whiteness studies strand.

    For 3) to work as outlined the Post-Colonial and Critical Race strand would have to be some kind of mega-4D chess psy-op by Anglo-whites. They would have to be using Jewish, Arab, black and Latino scholars to portray whiteness, colonialism and European culture as pervasively oppressive and evil, allowing this perspective to spread to the non-white developing world, all in order to cause the triumph of Angl0-American white people at some point much further down the line. This doesn’t seem plausible e.g.

    Meanwhile, in countries to which the Great Awokening comes as a “complete package”, the consequences can be more dramatic and indeed terminal,

    …is like saying that black created Black Nationalism and Afrocentrism will harm the development of African nations.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @Coconuts


    I think there are different strands two main strands within Wokeness, the Queer/Feminism/LGBT strand and the Post-Colonial/Critical Race/Whiteness studies strand.
     
    One of the most significant groups are the crypto-woke. Perhaps, a sub-type of #2?

    Basically, as I'd define them, they will deny being woke and aren't gay. They might say that they are not pro-mass migration and are not anti-white, but they will blame what is happening to Europe on colonialism, or, if they are not white, try to gain status by exaggerating or making hay out of colonial atrocities. Or, in another breadth, they will say Europeans are really a mixture of different populations, and wonder if it is natural for Europe to change.

    They are the worst group, IMO.

    Replies: @Coconuts

    , @Extrapolator
    @Coconuts

    No shit black nationalism and Afrocentrism will harm the development of African nations -- consider Rhodesia or South Africa. Already has in plenty of places.

    Otherwise this comment is very good, but you don't elucidate how the two strands work with each other, which is that the former strand -- queer/feminism/LGBT -- always beats the latter strand when they conflict. This is because anybody who gets really into wokism is predominantly concerned about this strand (either because they are gay or because society has convinced them to care about this), while those who actually care about black culture go to black churches or rap or something. Whenever the latter conflicts with the former, everyone just pretends that it doesn't.

    This is why Anatoly is right, incidentally. When wokeness spreads, it'll spread LGTB-ism wherever it goes. Because wokeness is a Western idea and Western ideas have the highest levels of memetic fitness (the idea Trubetskoy was gesturing towards, but didn't have), it will out-compete its competitors and spread, even in the Third World. (Hell, you already have trans politicians in Brazil and such.) Then it will reduce birth-rates. (His prognosis for the First World is optimistic -- I'd put more faith in direct genetic engineering than Amish/Haredi/Arkansas-Quiverfull breeder colonies if things end up working out; given France's experience I don't think selection on breeder traits happens very fast in practice -- but his prognosis for the Third World is spot on.)

    Because Western societies are open -- there is no real censorship, someone here will complain about SJWs but no one will ever come to shut down Unz and it is very easy to find -- the most convincing-sounding ideas with the greatest memetic fitness will always be exported from Western societies to others. The idea that Iran or China or Africa can resist Western fashions in the long-term is bogus (even with high fertility, but then, Iran and China don't actually *have* high fertility). Xi can go ahead and try to build a functioning society if that's what he wants. Wokeness will eventually reach China too, and win there.

    Replies: @silviosilver, @Boomthorkell, @Boomthorkell, @Coconuts, @128, @Passer by, @Jatt Aryaa

  59. @songbird
    @Passer by

    The Dorset and the Inuit largely lived in the same extreme environment. One was able to outcompete and eliminate the other though, due to its different culture.

    Replies: @Passer by

    Culture is part of the environment one is living in, and for example you can have muslims and christians living in the same area. But they will be experiencing different environment in their lives due to that.

    All the things a culture makes you do is part of the environmental factors affecting you.

  60. @Bashibuzuk
    @Carlo

    I am sorry to be so blunt, but go to Gospels and read 'em again. Jesus was a (proto) Woke.

    Replies: @Coconuts, @Beckow, @Gerard.Gerard

    Whether considered as a doctrine, or an historical fact, or a movement, Socialism, if it remains truly Socialism, even after it has yielded to truth and justice on the points which we have mentioned, cannot be reconciled with the teachings of the Catholic Church because its concept of society itself is utterly foreign to Christian truth…

    If Socialism, like all errors, contains some truth (which, moreover, the Supreme Pontiffs have never denied), it is based nevertheless on a theory of human society peculiar to itself and irreconcilable with true Christianity. Religious socialism, Christian socialism, are contradictory terms; no one can be at the same time a good Catholic and a true socialist. (Pius XI, Quadragesimo Anno 117, 120)

    I think too many leftists fell out of helicopters and things of that kind in the 1970s and 80s, this led to a certain amount of push back against traditional Christian teaching in Latin American countries and the rise of things like Liberation Theology, but this is a heresy:

    Communism is intrinsically wrong, and no one who would save Christian civilization may collaborate with it in any undertaking whatsoever. Those who permit themselves to be deceived into lending their aid towards the triumph of Communism in their own country, will be the first to fall victims of their error. And the greater the antiquity and grandeur of the Christian civilization in the regions where Communism successfully penetrates, so much more devastating will be the hatred displayed by the godless. (Pius XI, Divini Redemptoris 58)

  61. @Bashibuzuk
    @Carlo

    I am sorry to be so blunt, but go to Gospels and read 'em again. Jesus was a (proto) Woke.

    Replies: @Coconuts, @Beckow, @Gerard.Gerard

    Gospels are a sedative, they were meant for suffering masses with focus on women. They worked in gathering a flock. Of course, the Christian institutions never took any of the woke stuff seriously. That was the saving grace of Christianity until recently. Today I am not sure if Western Christianity has much to offer.

    The problem with all current conservatism is that it is by definition conserving the dominant liberal-woke world. Why would anyone want to do that?

    The other problem is that economic conservatism has been taken over by libertarian morons (=classical liberals) who have no idea that what they are advocating is a material basis for out-of-control liberalism. It is also a political poison: today we cannot function without some socialism. By fanatically opposing it, the modern right is marginalising itself (see Trump’s fate). They bought into a Hollywood version of individual liberty that has never existed and never will. But they are unable to even see it – as we can see among many on this blog. I suspect the West is f..ed…they have been check-mated by their own multiplying idiocies…

    • Replies: @dfordoom
    @Beckow


    The other problem is that economic conservatism has been taken over by libertarian morons (=classical liberals) who have no idea that what they are advocating is a material basis for out-of-control liberalism. It is also a political poison: today we cannot function without some socialism. By fanatically opposing it, the modern right is marginalising itself (see Trump’s fate). They bought into a Hollywood version of individual liberty that has never existed and never will.
     
    Yes I agree with that.
  62. Woketardery is “white upper middle class womxn supremacy”, unfortunately enough, being exported via US-academia and US-mainstream-media + US-dominated social media.

    The Rainbowflag-Empire’s main creed – being anti white male, being pro “Afro”-everything + pro-homosexuality – is absolutley what white liberal (upper) middle class women believe in and want to implement all over the world. “Werstern” institutions are just as “feminized” in (Western-)Eruope as in the USA (sometimes, as in Germany, it seems they are even trying to “out-woke” the USA!) Womxn in academia, womxn in mainstream media, and lately there is a push to put as many “Afro-Germans” as possible into German TV as presenters and journalists. Despite Africans being still in very low numbers.

  63. @sudden death

    16% of Gen Z in the US now identify as LGBT.
     
    Wonder if such kind inquries are done accounting survirorship bias and change of societal norms? I mean now the boomer percentage of LGBT is way smaller than 16%, but there was shitload of dead gays from AIDS before some treatments appeared, who now would be boomers if alive, not even to mention there was way more peer pressure to stay silent about such orientations then.

    Replies: @Firefinga

    I suspect a lot of these are girls claiming to be “bi” or “non-binary” bc it’s a current fad.

  64. @AlexanderGrozny
    Are SJWs still a thing? I remember they were big on campuses around 2015 but I didn't think they still existed.

    Replies: @Firefinga

    They have graduated in the meantime and fill slots in bureaucracy and business, mostly as woke.comissars, working towards fireing everybody who isn’t fully commited to the gospel-of-woke.

    Remeber when people made fun of the blue-haired “snowflakes”? Yes, they are weaklings and helpless crybabies when alone and on their own. Unfortunately a lot of snowflakes can comprise an avalanche and that’s exactly what’s happening now.

    • Replies: @AlexanderGrozny
    @Firefinga

    Not every left leaning person is an SJW. I am living on my university campus and I know many people who are left wing but the pink/blue haired, "trigger warning", snowflake SJWs largely came and went.

    Not every leftist is an SJW. Was Clement Atlee an SJW? Vladimir Lenin? Being an SJW is about the authoritarian, thin skinned and angry nature not just the thinking.

    Replies: @Hyperborean

  65. @Bashibuzuk
    @Carlo

    I am sorry to be so blunt, but go to Gospels and read 'em again. Jesus was a (proto) Woke.

    Replies: @Coconuts, @Beckow, @Gerard.Gerard

    STFU you duplicitous, Jewish Vietnamese-Israeli swine.

    Trying to impose American poison gutter-culture and its negative and disproportionate influence ( partially because of its blasphemous scumbag pseudo-messianic mania) on the west and rest of the world ( while strangely not looking to impose some of its rare positive things like architecture and distinctly American cars on much of Europe)……… onto Jesus and his humanity is as false and low as it gets you POS.

    You’re tri-gender, ultra-feminist bore…… so I don’t see you trying to attack the Jewish-friendly Old Testament, and it’s promotion of feminist, incestual date-rape ( end of destruction of Gommorah I think)

    Get out of my sight

    • LOL: sher singh
  66. @Coconuts

    3) Once traditionalist barriers break down, as they always have, these Third World polities whose elites are in thrall to hegemonic Western culture will be culturally colonized to a much greater degree and more destructively so than was ever the case within the American noosphere, in which responses and adaptations to woke memes have co-evolved.
     
    I think there are different strands two main strands within Wokeness, the Queer/Feminism/LGBT strand and the Post-Colonial/Critical Race/Whiteness studies strand.

    For 3) to work as outlined the Post-Colonial and Critical Race strand would have to be some kind of mega-4D chess psy-op by Anglo-whites. They would have to be using Jewish, Arab, black and Latino scholars to portray whiteness, colonialism and European culture as pervasively oppressive and evil, allowing this perspective to spread to the non-white developing world, all in order to cause the triumph of Angl0-American white people at some point much further down the line. This doesn't seem plausible e.g.

    Meanwhile, in countries to which the Great Awokening comes as a “complete package”, the consequences can be more dramatic and indeed terminal,
     
    ...is like saying that black created Black Nationalism and Afrocentrism will harm the development of African nations.

    Replies: @songbird, @Extrapolator

    I think there are different strands two main strands within Wokeness, the Queer/Feminism/LGBT strand and the Post-Colonial/Critical Race/Whiteness studies strand.

    One of the most significant groups are the crypto-woke. Perhaps, a sub-type of #2?

    Basically, as I’d define them, they will deny being woke and aren’t gay. They might say that they are not pro-mass migration and are not anti-white, but they will blame what is happening to Europe on colonialism, or, if they are not white, try to gain status by exaggerating or making hay out of colonial atrocities. Or, in another breadth, they will say Europeans are really a mixture of different populations, and wonder if it is natural for Europe to change.

    They are the worst group, IMO.

    • Replies: @Coconuts
    @songbird


    One of the most significant groups are the crypto-woke. Perhaps, a sub-type of #2?
     
    It seems like it, views of that kind sound like they are the result of the populisation and spread of post-colonial and CRT ideas through wider society.

    Expressing a commitment to the principle that countries shouldn't have to be on the receiving end of significant mass-migration, or that there shouldn't be hostility directed against groups on the basis of their skin colour suggests that when exceptions are made to these norms (as in the case of various European countries) there must be some serious justification for it. Past colonialism, colonial exploitation and so on can then be pointed to as just such justifications and a good basis for a kind of double standard. This is a kind of 'migration as reparations' or justice for the past argument.

    Running a simultaneous and distinct argument that significant immigration is nothing new or exceptional, and is a kind of natural and unstoppable morally neutral phenomena is useful because it is harder to argue against both of these positions at the same time, partly because they are incompatible. In Britain this latter argument is older than the newer Woke one based on colonialism, that has only spread more in the past couple of years.

  67. @Brás Cubas
    Your hypothesis is probably correct. Commenter Kronos (and myself in a reply) have had some similar thoughts a while ago.

    https://www.unz.com/isteve/what-of-antifa-are-trans/#comment-4056500

    Basically you are making the connection between cultural darwinism and biological darwinism. Apparently Jonas Salk's "survival of the wisest" concept is something in that line.

    Replies: @A123

    The Fascist Stormtroopers of Antifa are the new blackshirts (1)

    Both Hitler and Mussolini were perhaps the original and most dedicated ideological warriors for social justice. But the German National Socialists and Italian Fascists represented more than a brutal force that sent stormtroopers and blackshirt thugs to shout down rivals, block free speech, break shop windows, throw tear gas at opponents, and bash heads. They also represented a nationalist, collectivist and Marxist-inspired ideology that sought a “socially just” welfare society by redistributing everyone’s wealth.

    You cannot have National Socialism without first having Socialism. Fascism is actually a form of far-left extremism. It is diametrically opposed to the fundamental concept of individual liberty that is core to the political right.

    The Fascist Stormtroopers of Antifa hate the idea of Constitutional Rights for individuals. To Antifa, all property belongs to the state. Invading and damaging personal property is consistent with their core Fascist belief system. Free Speech is also anathema to them. Those who dare to speak against their SJW authoritarian dogma must be silenced or coerced into conformity.

    PEACE 😇
    _______

    (1) https://www.lewrockwell.com/2019/11/lk-samuels/the-original-social-justice-warriors-hitler-and-mussolini/

    • Replies: @Brás Cubas
    @A123

    I think individual liberty sucks, so I must be leftwing. That's about the only ideological belief I share with regular leftists. Thanks for telling me I'm a leftist, now go tell them. It's no use being a club member and not being able to use the facilities.

  68. @Blinky Bill
    @Anatoly Karlin

    https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQNi9AHF7INOn3dE-qCLzxW5pW-z8S5OXtqkQ&usqp.jpg

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @Daniel Chieh

    Perfect control of environment allows minimalization of any harmful alleles from being expressed in the womb, and avoidance of concerns like fetal alcohol syndrome. Imagine being able to move beyond the simple cottage industry of domestic production of humanity and replace it with industrialization.

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/paper-review-artificial-wombs/

    The promise of a new future is upon us.

    • Replies: @Mr. XYZ
    @Daniel Chieh

    If the cause of male (and female?) homosexuality is in large part prenatal (specifically some kind of immune reaction by pregnant women), then fetuses gestated in artificial wombs are going to be considerably less likely to be homosexual, correct?

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @Bies Podkrakowski

    , @FerW
    @Daniel Chieh

    Seeing this upbeat reaction to in-vitro human breeding I'm reminded of your joking admission of being "a little traumatized by life, which may have led to some unusual opinions and interests". Non-jokingly, I'm starting to feel a little pity! :‑)

    , @Reg Cæsar
    @Daniel Chieh


    Imagine being able to move beyond the simple cottage industry of domestic production of humanity and replace it with industrialization.
     
    We'd rather not.


    https://s3.amazonaws.com/green-vacation-deals-2/WP+Media+Folder+-+green-vacation-deals/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/romantic-cozy-couple.jpg
  69. @china-russia-all-the-way
    This essay was confusing for me. Particularly point no. 3. Not clear why the elites or upper middle class of those countries would be colonized more.

    Replies: @Hyperborean

    This essay was confusing for me. Particularly point no. 3. Not clear why the elites or upper middle class of those countries would be colonized more.

    Because they are more likely to; speak English, read, listen to, or watch English-language news, be educated in overseas universities and boarding schools, travel internationally, conduct international exchanges (business, academic, artistic et al affairs), consume Anglophone pop culture, reside in a milieu where high status is often equated with American or generic pseudo-Western prestige culture, possess property or discreet bank accounts abroad, multiple citizenships or permanent residences, et cetera.

    And for every one upper class person who has this there will be two slightly lower in the social hierarchy who will aspire to this.

  70. (1) Demographic transition – thus far, a universal phenomenon that is in happening even in Sub-Saharan Africa as a whole not notable in some regions/peoples, e.g. Kenyans, Christian Nigerians.

    Do you mean “is a whole lot notable (noticeable?) in some regions/peoples” here? I’m wondering if you made a couple of typos in this sentence, Anatoly.

  71. @Firefinga
    @AlexanderGrozny

    They have graduated in the meantime and fill slots in bureaucracy and business, mostly as woke.comissars, working towards fireing everybody who isn't fully commited to the gospel-of-woke.

    Remeber when people made fun of the blue-haired "snowflakes"? Yes, they are weaklings and helpless crybabies when alone and on their own. Unfortunately a lot of snowflakes can comprise an avalanche and that's exactly what's happening now.

    Replies: @AlexanderGrozny

    Not every left leaning person is an SJW. I am living on my university campus and I know many people who are left wing but the pink/blue haired, “trigger warning”, snowflake SJWs largely came and went.

    Not every leftist is an SJW. Was Clement Atlee an SJW? Vladimir Lenin? Being an SJW is about the authoritarian, thin skinned and angry nature not just the thinking.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    @AlexanderGrozny

    Was Lenin an SJW?


    Complaining about the white yokels who "just don't get it":


    It is quite natural that in such circumstances the "freedom to secede from the union" by which we justify ourselves will be a mere scrap of paper, unable to defend the non-Russians from the onslaught of that really Russian man, the Great-Russian chauvinist, in substance a rascal and a tyrant, such as the typical Russian bureaucrat is. There is no doubt that the infinitesimal percentage of Soviet and sovietised workers will drown in that tide of chauvinistic Great-Russian riffraff like a fly in milk.

    It is said in defence of this measure that the People's Commissariats directly concerned with national psychology and national education were set up as separate bodies. But there the question arises: can these People's Commissariats be made quite independent? and secondly: were we careful enough to take measures to provide the non-Russians with a real safeguard against the truly Russian bully? I do not think we took such measures although we could and should have done so.

     

    Accusations of white-adjacency against anti-anti-white minorities:

    I think that Stalin's haste and his infatuation with pure administration, together with his spite against the notorious "nationalist-socialism" [Stalin critised the minority nations for not being "internationalist" because they did want to unite with Russia], played a fatal role here. In politics spite generally plays the basest of roles.

    I also fear that Comrade Dzerzhinsky, who went to the Caucasus to investigate the "crime" of those "nationalist-socialists", distinguished himself there by his truly Russian frame of mind (it is common knowledge that people of other nationalities who have become Russified over-do this Russian frame of mind) and that the impartiality of his whole commission was typified well enough by Orgonikidze's "manhandling". I think that no provocation or even insult can justify such Russian manhandling and that Comrade Dzerzhinsky was inexcusably guilty in adopting a light-hearted attitude towards it.
     
    Focusing on micro-aggressions and believing that "it is impossible to be racist against whites":

    In my writings on the national question I have already said that an abstract presentation of the question of nationalism in general is of no use at all. A distinction must necessarily be made between the nationalism of an oppressor nation and that of an oppressed nation, the nationalism of a big nation and that of a small nation.

    In respect of the second kind of nationalism we, nationals of a big nation, have nearly always been guilty, in historic practice, of an infinite number of cases of violence; furthermore, we commit violence and insult an infinite number of times without noticing it. It is sufficient to recall my Volga reminiscences of how non-Russians are treated; how the Poles are not called by any other name than Polyachiska, how the Tatar is nicknamed Prince, how the Ukrainians are always Khokhols and the Georgians and other Caucasian nationals always Kapkasians.

     

    "Non-racism is racism and only through an actively anti-racist policy of present discrimination can we make up for past discrimination and racism and ensure equity and restitution":

    That is why internationalism on the part of oppressors or "great" nations, as they are called (though they are great only in their violence, only great as bullies), must consist not only in the observance of the formal equality of nations but even in an inequality of the oppressor nation, the great nation, that must make up for the inequality which obtains in actual practice. Anybody who does not understand this has not grasped the real proletarian attitude to the national question, he is still essentially petty bourgeois in his point of view and is, therefore, sure to descend to the bourgeois point of view.

    What is important for the proletarian? For the proletarian it is not only important, it is absolutely essential that he should be assured that the non-Russians place the greatest possible trust in the proletarian class struggle. What is needed to ensure this? Not merely formal equality. In one way or another, by one's attitude or by concessions, it is necessary to compensate the non-Russian for the lack of trust, for the suspicion and the insults to which the government of the "dominant" nation subjected them in the past.
     
    Millenarian cultural imperialist-expansionist fanaticism:

    It must be borne in mind that the decentralisation of the People's Commissariats and the lack of co-ordination in their work as far as Moscow and other centres are concerned can be compensated sufficiently by Party authority, if it is exercised with sufficient prudence and impartiality; the harm that can result to our state from a lack of unification between the national apparatuses and the Russian apparatus is infinitely less than that which will be done not only to us, but to the whole International, and to the hundreds of millions of the peoples of Asia, which is destined to follow us on to the stage of history in the near future. It would be unpardonable opportunism if, on the eve of debut of the East, just as it is awakening, we undermined our prestige with its peoples, even if only by the slightest crudity or injustice towards our own non-Russian nationalities. The need to rally against the imperialists of the West, who are defending the capitalist world, is one thing. There can be no doubt about that and it would be superfluous for me to speak about my unconditional approval of it. It is another thing when we ourselves lapse, even if only in trifles, into imperialist attitudes towards oppressed nationalities, thus undermining all our principled sincerity, all our principled defence of the struggle against imperialism. But the morrow of world history will be a day when the awakening peoples oppressed by imperialism are finally aroused and the decisive long and hard struggle for their liberation begins.
     
    https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1922/dec/testamnt/autonomy.htm

    The Prosecution rests its case.
  72. @Daniel Chieh
    @Blinky Bill

    Perfect control of environment allows minimalization of any harmful alleles from being expressed in the womb, and avoidance of concerns like fetal alcohol syndrome. Imagine being able to move beyond the simple cottage industry of domestic production of humanity and replace it with industrialization.

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/paper-review-artificial-wombs/

    The promise of a new future is upon us.

    Replies: @Mr. XYZ, @FerW, @Reg Cæsar

    If the cause of male (and female?) homosexuality is in large part prenatal (specifically some kind of immune reaction by pregnant women), then fetuses gestated in artificial wombs are going to be considerably less likely to be homosexual, correct?

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    @Mr. XYZ

    Sure, but its more environmental than genetic in practice.

    Replies: @Mr. XYZ

    , @Bies Podkrakowski
    @Mr. XYZ

    Or more.
    If such things can be regulated it will probably be regulated according to most progressive social customs. There won't be any excuses anymore. Only the most regressive parents don't have gay kids. You are not a regressive, citizen, are you?

    Replies: @Boomthorkell, @Mr. XYZ

  73. Third World polities whose elites are in thrall to hegemonic Western culture will be culturally colonized to a much greater degree and more destructively so than was ever the case within the American noosphere, in which responses and adaptations to woke memes have co-evolved.

    This is totally false too. There is very clear symmetry in woke behavior and influence. Its center is the US, and probably several Western European countries. The influence declines the further from the center you go.

    In order to have high level of woke stuff you need to have high level inteligencia, something rare in third world countries, moreover, woke stuff hits richer countries harder than poorer third world countries, simply due to the Maslow hierarchy of needs.

    Poor people simply can not afford to be as decadent as westerners, and for them fixing poverty, or working class issues, are much more imporant than identity politics.

    I also mentioned the issue of third world inbreeding, making woke behavior much less likely there than in the West.

    So no, in general, third world countries will not be more woke than the center of the Western Empire, or than rich countries. This is absolutely false.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    @Passer by


    Poor people simply can not afford to be as decadent as westerners, and for them fixing poverty, or working class issues, are much more imporant than identity politics.
     
    Anglophone and Francophone Cameroonians are razing each other's villages even though only a minority can actually speak proper French (presumably the same for English) and many still retain their native languages as mother language. It is hard to get more artificial than this. Yet they are willing to commit massacres to protect this identity.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/cameroon-language-french-english-military-africa-ambazonia-a8770396.html

    Replies: @Passer by

  74. @Anatoly Karlin
    @Passer by


    This never happened in the last one thousand years so that i’m not a supporter of breeder theories and suddenly spiking TFR due to breeder selection.
     
    A prolonged period of post-Malthusian resource abundance is an absolute novelty in the human experience and is required for this to happen. History can't be a guide in this particular instance. This was discussed at length in my series.

    Replies: @Passer by, @Passer by, @Mr. XYZ

    Are you suggesting that countries that are already severely overpopulated (for instance, both India and Bangladesh) are considerably less likely to experience an eventual huge future fertility boom? Because that would actually make a lot of sense.

  75. Karlin, i expect higher quality from you, i’m here to learn something new and of good quality, not to be fixing your mistakes.

  76. @AlexanderGrozny
    @Firefinga

    Not every left leaning person is an SJW. I am living on my university campus and I know many people who are left wing but the pink/blue haired, "trigger warning", snowflake SJWs largely came and went.

    Not every leftist is an SJW. Was Clement Atlee an SJW? Vladimir Lenin? Being an SJW is about the authoritarian, thin skinned and angry nature not just the thinking.

    Replies: @Hyperborean

    Was Lenin an SJW?

    Complaining about the white yokels who “just don’t get it”:

    It is quite natural that in such circumstances the “freedom to secede from the union” by which we justify ourselves will be a mere scrap of paper, unable to defend the non-Russians from the onslaught of that really Russian man, the Great-Russian chauvinist, in substance a rascal and a tyrant, such as the typical Russian bureaucrat is. There is no doubt that the infinitesimal percentage of Soviet and sovietised workers will drown in that tide of chauvinistic Great-Russian riffraff like a fly in milk.

    It is said in defence of this measure that the People’s Commissariats directly concerned with national psychology and national education were set up as separate bodies. But there the question arises: can these People’s Commissariats be made quite independent? and secondly: were we careful enough to take measures to provide the non-Russians with a real safeguard against the truly Russian bully? I do not think we took such measures although we could and should have done so.

    Accusations of white-adjacency against anti-anti-white minorities:

    I think that Stalin’s haste and his infatuation with pure administration, together with his spite against the notorious “nationalist-socialism” [Stalin critised the minority nations for not being “internationalist” because they did want to unite with Russia], played a fatal role here. In politics spite generally plays the basest of roles.

    I also fear that Comrade Dzerzhinsky, who went to the Caucasus to investigate the “crime” of those “nationalist-socialists”, distinguished himself there by his truly Russian frame of mind (it is common knowledge that people of other nationalities who have become Russified over-do this Russian frame of mind) and that the impartiality of his whole commission was typified well enough by Orgonikidze’s “manhandling”. I think that no provocation or even insult can justify such Russian manhandling and that Comrade Dzerzhinsky was inexcusably guilty in adopting a light-hearted attitude towards it.

    Focusing on micro-aggressions and believing that “it is impossible to be racist against whites”:

    In my writings on the national question I have already said that an abstract presentation of the question of nationalism in general is of no use at all. A distinction must necessarily be made between the nationalism of an oppressor nation and that of an oppressed nation, the nationalism of a big nation and that of a small nation.

    In respect of the second kind of nationalism we, nationals of a big nation, have nearly always been guilty, in historic practice, of an infinite number of cases of violence; furthermore, we commit violence and insult an infinite number of times without noticing it. It is sufficient to recall my Volga reminiscences of how non-Russians are treated; how the Poles are not called by any other name than Polyachiska, how the Tatar is nicknamed Prince, how the Ukrainians are always Khokhols and the Georgians and other Caucasian nationals always Kapkasians.

    “Non-racism is racism and only through an actively anti-racist policy of present discrimination can we make up for past discrimination and racism and ensure equity and restitution”:

    That is why internationalism on the part of oppressors or “great” nations, as they are called (though they are great only in their violence, only great as bullies), must consist not only in the observance of the formal equality of nations but even in an inequality of the oppressor nation, the great nation, that must make up for the inequality which obtains in actual practice. Anybody who does not understand this has not grasped the real proletarian attitude to the national question, he is still essentially petty bourgeois in his point of view and is, therefore, sure to descend to the bourgeois point of view.

    What is important for the proletarian? For the proletarian it is not only important, it is absolutely essential that he should be assured that the non-Russians place the greatest possible trust in the proletarian class struggle. What is needed to ensure this? Not merely formal equality. In one way or another, by one’s attitude or by concessions, it is necessary to compensate the non-Russian for the lack of trust, for the suspicion and the insults to which the government of the “dominant” nation subjected them in the past.

    Millenarian cultural imperialist-expansionist fanaticism:

    It must be borne in mind that the decentralisation of the People’s Commissariats and the lack of co-ordination in their work as far as Moscow and other centres are concerned can be compensated sufficiently by Party authority, if it is exercised with sufficient prudence and impartiality; the harm that can result to our state from a lack of unification between the national apparatuses and the Russian apparatus is infinitely less than that which will be done not only to us, but to the whole International, and to the hundreds of millions of the peoples of Asia, which is destined to follow us on to the stage of history in the near future. It would be unpardonable opportunism if, on the eve of debut of the East, just as it is awakening, we undermined our prestige with its peoples, even if only by the slightest crudity or injustice towards our own non-Russian nationalities. The need to rally against the imperialists of the West, who are defending the capitalist world, is one thing. There can be no doubt about that and it would be superfluous for me to speak about my unconditional approval of it. It is another thing when we ourselves lapse, even if only in trifles, into imperialist attitudes towards oppressed nationalities, thus undermining all our principled sincerity, all our principled defence of the struggle against imperialism. But the morrow of world history will be a day when the awakening peoples oppressed by imperialism are finally aroused and the decisive long and hard struggle for their liberation begins.

    https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1922/dec/testamnt/autonomy.htm

    The Prosecution rests its case.

  77. @Passer by

    Third World polities whose elites are in thrall to hegemonic Western culture will be culturally colonized to a much greater degree and more destructively so than was ever the case within the American noosphere, in which responses and adaptations to woke memes have co-evolved.
     
    This is totally false too. There is very clear symmetry in woke behavior and influence. Its center is the US, and probably several Western European countries. The influence declines the further from the center you go.

    In order to have high level of woke stuff you need to have high level inteligencia, something rare in third world countries, moreover, woke stuff hits richer countries harder than poorer third world countries, simply due to the Maslow hierarchy of needs.

    Poor people simply can not afford to be as decadent as westerners, and for them fixing poverty, or working class issues, are much more imporant than identity politics.

    I also mentioned the issue of third world inbreeding, making woke behavior much less likely there than in the West.

    So no, in general, third world countries will not be more woke than the center of the Western Empire, or than rich countries. This is absolutely false.

    Replies: @Hyperborean

    Poor people simply can not afford to be as decadent as westerners, and for them fixing poverty, or working class issues, are much more imporant than identity politics.

    Anglophone and Francophone Cameroonians are razing each other’s villages even though only a minority can actually speak proper French (presumably the same for English) and many still retain their native languages as mother language. It is hard to get more artificial than this. Yet they are willing to commit massacres to protect this identity.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/cameroon-language-french-english-military-africa-ambazonia-a8770396.html

    • Replies: @Passer by
    @Hyperborean

    No, this is the old school ethnocentrism that everybody had.
    On the contrary, in the West it is modern to give up your own ethnocentric interests in favor of minorities.

    Replies: @Hyperborean

  78. @Mr. XYZ
    @Daniel Chieh

    If the cause of male (and female?) homosexuality is in large part prenatal (specifically some kind of immune reaction by pregnant women), then fetuses gestated in artificial wombs are going to be considerably less likely to be homosexual, correct?

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @Bies Podkrakowski

    Sure, but its more environmental than genetic in practice.

    • Replies: @Mr. XYZ
    @Daniel Chieh

    The environmental factor is likely to be primarily prenatal, to my knowledge. The fraternal birth order effect combined with the uniqueness of gay faces both demonstrates this, IMHO.

  79. Show me one big city where natives are having that “breeders effect”.
    It is imbossible for cities to sustain life, they will suck all life from countryside until it is empty and then from foreign countries. It is what John B Calhoun said in his rat studies – mice utopia.
    Rural people might take over and those which reject modernity such like amish, mennonites, vissarion, old believers, haredim etc

  80. I’m convinced bioleninism is a necessary component for wokeness, and I have trouble understanding how it would work in a third or fourth world country.

    Suppose we take a sub-Saharan country, and assume a cognitive difference between Bushmen and Bantu. Well, there aren’t enough Bushmen to takeover a Bantu country, even if we assume that they could.

    Or consider the Dominican Republic. The only group interested in invading it seems to be Haitians. There are a fair number of them, but they mainly look the same to Dominicans – there’s basically only one variety (excluding the rare lighter-tone ones who may not even be interested in coming). So, in theory, it would be hard for a coalition of people with different skin tones to fool a Dominican into thinking that race didn’t matter because he would only see Haitians. There would not be any “model minority”, just Haitians.

  81. @songbird
    @Coconuts


    I think there are different strands two main strands within Wokeness, the Queer/Feminism/LGBT strand and the Post-Colonial/Critical Race/Whiteness studies strand.
     
    One of the most significant groups are the crypto-woke. Perhaps, a sub-type of #2?

    Basically, as I'd define them, they will deny being woke and aren't gay. They might say that they are not pro-mass migration and are not anti-white, but they will blame what is happening to Europe on colonialism, or, if they are not white, try to gain status by exaggerating or making hay out of colonial atrocities. Or, in another breadth, they will say Europeans are really a mixture of different populations, and wonder if it is natural for Europe to change.

    They are the worst group, IMO.

    Replies: @Coconuts

    One of the most significant groups are the crypto-woke. Perhaps, a sub-type of #2?

    It seems like it, views of that kind sound like they are the result of the populisation and spread of post-colonial and CRT ideas through wider society.

    Expressing a commitment to the principle that countries shouldn’t have to be on the receiving end of significant mass-migration, or that there shouldn’t be hostility directed against groups on the basis of their skin colour suggests that when exceptions are made to these norms (as in the case of various European countries) there must be some serious justification for it. Past colonialism, colonial exploitation and so on can then be pointed to as just such justifications and a good basis for a kind of double standard. This is a kind of ‘migration as reparations’ or justice for the past argument.

    Running a simultaneous and distinct argument that significant immigration is nothing new or exceptional, and is a kind of natural and unstoppable morally neutral phenomena is useful because it is harder to argue against both of these positions at the same time, partly because they are incompatible. In Britain this latter argument is older than the newer Woke one based on colonialism, that has only spread more in the past couple of years.

    • Agree: songbird
  82. Trubetzkoy emphasizes that socialism is just the latest expression of egocentric European pretensions to universality, rather than the road to salvation from European spiritual tyranny. As it relies on “militant cosmopolitanism” for its propagation, global socialism is only possible in the context of “universal Europeanization”. Once such a new world order is created, its champions will have to remain “armed to the teeth” to protect it – “The first order of business for the European socialist states would be to impose this system everywhere by fire and sword and then to exercise great vigilance to prevent apostasy”.

    If ‘liberal colourblindness’ is substituted for ‘socialism’ and ‘white supremacy’ for ‘European’ this would be Woke.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    @Coconuts


    If ‘liberal colourblindness’ is substituted for ‘socialism’ and ‘white supremacy’ for ‘European’ this would be Woke.
     
    The 'colourblind' Liberals are their predecessors, the Wokeists hate the 'I don't see race' people.

    Replies: @Coconuts

  83. @Coconuts

    Trubetzkoy emphasizes that socialism is just the latest expression of egocentric European pretensions to universality, rather than the road to salvation from European spiritual tyranny. As it relies on “militant cosmopolitanism” for its propagation, global socialism is only possible in the context of “universal Europeanization”. Once such a new world order is created, its champions will have to remain “armed to the teeth” to protect it – “The first order of business for the European socialist states would be to impose this system everywhere by fire and sword and then to exercise great vigilance to prevent apostasy”.
     
    If 'liberal colourblindness' is substituted for 'socialism' and 'white supremacy' for 'European' this would be Woke.

    Replies: @Hyperborean

    If ‘liberal colourblindness’ is substituted for ‘socialism’ and ‘white supremacy’ for ‘European’ this would be Woke.

    The ‘colourblind’ Liberals are their predecessors, the Wokeists hate the ‘I don’t see race’ people.

    • Agree: Coconuts
    • Replies: @Coconuts
    @Hyperborean

    I could easily imagine someone like DiAngelo or Applebaum writing something like this:

    '...Liberal colorblindness is just the latest expression of egocentric white supremacist pretensions to universality, rather than the road to salvation the spiritual tyranny of white supremacy.'

    Maybe they would write 'assumptions of universality', rather than 'pretensions to...' though.

    Replies: @Shortsword

  84. @Hyperborean
    @Coconuts


    If ‘liberal colourblindness’ is substituted for ‘socialism’ and ‘white supremacy’ for ‘European’ this would be Woke.
     
    The 'colourblind' Liberals are their predecessors, the Wokeists hate the 'I don't see race' people.

    Replies: @Coconuts

    I could easily imagine someone like DiAngelo or Applebaum writing something like this:

    ‘…Liberal colorblindness is just the latest expression of egocentric white supremacist pretensions to universality, rather than the road to salvation the spiritual tyranny of white supremacy.’

    Maybe they would write ‘assumptions of universality’, rather than ‘pretensions to…’ though.

    • Replies: @Shortsword
    @Coconuts


    someone like DiAngelo or Applebaum
     
    How are they similar in any way? The only thing Applebaum does is shilling for Western supremacy.

    Replies: @Coconuts

  85. @Daniel Chieh
    @Mr. XYZ

    Sure, but its more environmental than genetic in practice.

    Replies: @Mr. XYZ

    The environmental factor is likely to be primarily prenatal, to my knowledge. The fraternal birth order effect combined with the uniqueness of gay faces both demonstrates this, IMHO.

  86. @SFG
    Pretty funny and I do agree Woke is just the next iteration of Christian universalism (albeit without a God or a Christ but a race of devils and plenty of sin), but:

    1. Europe and America have fewer people so the rest of the world would be decaying from a higher baseline even if demographic collapse occurs harder there.

    2. A lot of the rise in LGBT is bisexual women, who may be gaining 'Wokemon points' ("me and my BFF are going out! we're totally not straightcishets!") but still make families with men. (Men can't do this because straight women are much more leery of bi men due to the HIV risk.)

    3. You're forgetting about China. Over a billion and not particularly woke, and with plenty of their own culture and history if they want to use that for nationalistic purposes. Was it you or AE who said the one thing China doesn't have to worry about when making engineers and programmers is having too many Asians?

    Replies: @Jake, @songbird, @JohnPlywood

    China is as aged as Europe. 1 billion people doesn’t mean shit, that’a a fucking burden on them.

  87. @Coconuts
    @Hyperborean

    I could easily imagine someone like DiAngelo or Applebaum writing something like this:

    '...Liberal colorblindness is just the latest expression of egocentric white supremacist pretensions to universality, rather than the road to salvation the spiritual tyranny of white supremacy.'

    Maybe they would write 'assumptions of universality', rather than 'pretensions to...' though.

    Replies: @Shortsword

    someone like DiAngelo or Applebaum

    How are they similar in any way? The only thing Applebaum does is shilling for Western supremacy.

    • Replies: @Coconuts
    @Shortsword

    Barbara Applebaum, the Critical Whiteness academic: https://soe.syr.edu/about/directory/barbara-applebaum/

    Replies: @Shortsword

  88. @Anatoly Karlin
    @Passer by

    Will all cultural/technological changes during 21C work to suppress fertility further and indefinitely cancel out selection for "breeder" genes? It's not impossible - we can't foresee the future, after all. But it seems unlikely.

    Replies: @Blinky Bill, @Passer by, @dfordoom

    Will all cultural/technological changes during 21C work to suppress fertility further

    Not necessarily. Helicopter parenting is a major factor in depressing fertility. Helicopter parenting is just too exhausting for more than one child. Self-driving cars that actually work would free people from having to drive their kids to soccer practice or dancing class or whatever. Robots might be capable of taking over child supervisory duties. Technology could make helicopter parenting a lot less work.

    In the West we have made child-rearing very labour-intensive but technology could change that.

    • Replies: @Passer by
    @dfordoom

    On the contrary, it is the richest people who have the lowest birth rate (within societies) so the problem is not lack of capability.

    Replies: @dfordoom

  89. @Beckow
    @Bashibuzuk

    Gospels are a sedative, they were meant for suffering masses with focus on women. They worked in gathering a flock. Of course, the Christian institutions never took any of the woke stuff seriously. That was the saving grace of Christianity until recently. Today I am not sure if Western Christianity has much to offer.

    The problem with all current conservatism is that it is by definition conserving the dominant liberal-woke world. Why would anyone want to do that?

    The other problem is that economic conservatism has been taken over by libertarian morons (=classical liberals) who have no idea that what they are advocating is a material basis for out-of-control liberalism. It is also a political poison: today we cannot function without some socialism. By fanatically opposing it, the modern right is marginalising itself (see Trump's fate). They bought into a Hollywood version of individual liberty that has never existed and never will. But they are unable to even see it - as we can see among many on this blog. I suspect the West is f..ed...they have been check-mated by their own multiplying idiocies...

    Replies: @dfordoom

    The other problem is that economic conservatism has been taken over by libertarian morons (=classical liberals) who have no idea that what they are advocating is a material basis for out-of-control liberalism. It is also a political poison: today we cannot function without some socialism. By fanatically opposing it, the modern right is marginalising itself (see Trump’s fate). They bought into a Hollywood version of individual liberty that has never existed and never will.

    Yes I agree with that.

  90. @Coconuts

    3) Once traditionalist barriers break down, as they always have, these Third World polities whose elites are in thrall to hegemonic Western culture will be culturally colonized to a much greater degree and more destructively so than was ever the case within the American noosphere, in which responses and adaptations to woke memes have co-evolved.
     
    I think there are different strands two main strands within Wokeness, the Queer/Feminism/LGBT strand and the Post-Colonial/Critical Race/Whiteness studies strand.

    For 3) to work as outlined the Post-Colonial and Critical Race strand would have to be some kind of mega-4D chess psy-op by Anglo-whites. They would have to be using Jewish, Arab, black and Latino scholars to portray whiteness, colonialism and European culture as pervasively oppressive and evil, allowing this perspective to spread to the non-white developing world, all in order to cause the triumph of Angl0-American white people at some point much further down the line. This doesn't seem plausible e.g.

    Meanwhile, in countries to which the Great Awokening comes as a “complete package”, the consequences can be more dramatic and indeed terminal,
     
    ...is like saying that black created Black Nationalism and Afrocentrism will harm the development of African nations.

    Replies: @songbird, @Extrapolator

    No shit black nationalism and Afrocentrism will harm the development of African nations — consider Rhodesia or South Africa. Already has in plenty of places.

    Otherwise this comment is very good, but you don’t elucidate how the two strands work with each other, which is that the former strand — queer/feminism/LGBT — always beats the latter strand when they conflict. This is because anybody who gets really into wokism is predominantly concerned about this strand (either because they are gay or because society has convinced them to care about this), while those who actually care about black culture go to black churches or rap or something. Whenever the latter conflicts with the former, everyone just pretends that it doesn’t.

    This is why Anatoly is right, incidentally. When wokeness spreads, it’ll spread LGTB-ism wherever it goes. Because wokeness is a Western idea and Western ideas have the highest levels of memetic fitness (the idea Trubetskoy was gesturing towards, but didn’t have), it will out-compete its competitors and spread, even in the Third World. (Hell, you already have trans politicians in Brazil and such.) Then it will reduce birth-rates. (His prognosis for the First World is optimistic — I’d put more faith in direct genetic engineering than Amish/Haredi/Arkansas-Quiverfull breeder colonies if things end up working out; given France’s experience I don’t think selection on breeder traits happens very fast in practice — but his prognosis for the Third World is spot on.)

    Because Western societies are open — there is no real censorship, someone here will complain about SJWs but no one will ever come to shut down Unz and it is very easy to find — the most convincing-sounding ideas with the greatest memetic fitness will always be exported from Western societies to others. The idea that Iran or China or Africa can resist Western fashions in the long-term is bogus (even with high fertility, but then, Iran and China don’t actually *have* high fertility). Xi can go ahead and try to build a functioning society if that’s what he wants. Wokeness will eventually reach China too, and win there.

    • Replies: @silviosilver
    @Extrapolator


    This is why Anatoly is right, incidentally. When wokeness spreads, it’ll spread LGTB-ism wherever it goes.
     
    How does that make AK "right"? His thesis is not that wokism will spread, but that spreading it is a white supremacist strategy or that its spread will benefit white supremacy.
    , @Boomthorkell
    @Extrapolator

    I think the logic is not that it "has" to spread, but that for a society to not absorb these memetic chaos viruses, they have to be both very intelligent and spiritual about it. Consciously subconscious, as you will. Basically, they have to create a powerful and organic alternative while also being able to match the "Gallo-Germanics" (was that it?) in technology and weaponry. Some might be close to actually pulling it off. It remains to be seen.

    , @Boomthorkell
    @Extrapolator

    I think the logic is not that it "has" to spread, but that for a society to not absorb these memetic chaos viruses, they have to be both very intelligent and spiritual about it. Consciously subconscious, as you will. Basically, they have to create a powerful and organic alternative while also being able to match the "Gallo-Germanics" (was that it?) in technology and weaponry. Some might be close to actually pulling it off. It remains to be seen.

    , @Coconuts
    @Extrapolator


    No shit black nationalism and Afrocentrism will harm the development of African nations — consider Rhodesia or South Africa. Already has in plenty of places.
     
    This is true; the idea I was addressing was that somehow black nationalism and Afrocentrism were supposed to be being used to harm African development in ways which promote white supremacy and white power, this is one thing they don't seem to have done in Rhodesia or South Africa, at least so far.

    Otherwise this comment is very good, but you don’t elucidate how the two strands work with each other, which is that the former strand — queer/feminism/LGBT — always beats the latter strand when they conflict. This is because anybody who gets really into wokism is predominantly concerned about this strand (either because they are gay or because society has convinced them to care about this), while those who actually care about black culture go to black churches or rap or something. Whenever the latter conflicts with the former, everyone just pretends that it doesn’t.
     
    You are partly right here, the direct origins of the present Woke movement stem from the invention (by a black lesbian feminist) of the idea of intersectionality in the early 90s. This came out of debate within the identity-politics radical left about the way in which race based oppression interacts with sexuality and gender based oppression. They came up with the idea of intersectionality, how different identity based systems of oppression are supposed to overlap, and this is a big field of study and debate for the Woke.

    At the moment it feels like white gays and lesbians, as well as white feminists, are being marginalised and pushed down to the bottom end of the 'progressive stack'. To gain credibility whites have to be trans, genderqueer, neuro-diverse or physically disabled, obese plus feminist, lesbian etc. (Critical Fat Studies, about the oppression of the obese seemed more like a joke even a short time ago but is gaining ground). Black males can have more oppression derived status than many white identities, but black trans, black feminists, black Muslims who are gay max out on it.

    If it moved into the Third World, the post-colonial aspect would probably be significantly strengthened. Also, Wokeness has already integrated a lot postmodern content and still has some Hegelian basis, so it will try to embrace contradictions and logical incoherence in various ways, not as problems but as positive features of its worldview, while trying to keep the 'intersectional coalition' together as a political force.
    , @128
    @Extrapolator

    Well if this were China, this site would be shut down, and lots of authors would be in house arrest or put in a dungeon, and Mike Whitney, Atzmon, and Anglin would also be put in a dungeon or under house arrest, which may not be such a negative thing? Imagine Unz spreading stories about how China designed corona to be a biological weapon to attack Western economies, and this got a lot of traction in the Western media, Unz would also be put in a dungeon or put under house arrest. Depends on how much attention this site get if this were in China. And people like Bolsonaro and Noem, and possible De Santis would also be made to shut up or put in a dungeon if they were Chinese.

    Replies: @Supply and Demand, @Daniel Chieh

    , @Passer by
    @Extrapolator


    Because Western societies are open — there is no real censorship
     
    False.
    There is big censorship for anything that isn't politically incorrect. And the US is moving towards one party Dem state. The levels of censorhip are constantly on the increase. And considering who is really behind this, you will see even higher levels of censorship.

    Otherwise this comment is very good, but you don’t elucidate how the two strands work with each other, which is that the former strand — queer/feminism/LGBT always beats the latter strand when they conflict
     
    No. Being white is more important, thus being a white feminist puts you below non-whites in general. The white feminist must demand open borders and the replacement of whites like herself or she will be terminated.

    The idea that Iran or China or Africa can resist Western fashions in the long-term is bogus
     
    Why not? Inbreeding levels in the non-West do not support that view. They lead to less individualism, more selfishness and less altruism in general in those populations.

    Look at people who protest for saving the planet and its heavily white dominated there.

    , @Jatt Aryaa
    @Extrapolator

    Sikhi appeals more to violent men than rap music, Islam close second।।

    You can control the harem that just leaves you as chief eunuch।।

    Students of history will understand the second part of that insult. :)

  91. @Bashibuzuk
    @Mr. Hack


    Seriously, doesn’t it all really sound like the end is in sight as depicted within the old and new testaments?
     
    This is what I call prophetic programming.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    What I call, a prophecy of things to come.

    Do Buddhists believe in the eternity of the soul? Adepts seem to be seeking Samsara in the here and now, from what I’ve understood from our discussions herein. But then I’ve read that in order to achieve nirvana, one has to abandon samsara?

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @Mr. Hack


    Do Buddhists believe in the eternity of the soul?
     
    We believe in an ongoing causal process that lasts as long as the causes last and changes as the causes change.

    Adepts seem to be seeking Samsara in the here and now, from what I’ve understood from our discussions herein.
     
    You have to be present in the here and now to lower the level of illusion you experience.

    But then I’ve read that in order to achieve nirvana, one has to abandon samsara?

     

    Samsara is the state of a deluded mind. Nirvana is the state of mind that is no longer deluded. What one needs to let go is ignorance and clinging to the illusions rooted in this ignorance.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    , @AltanBakshi
    @Mr. Hack


    Do Buddhists believe in the eternity of the soul?
     
    In Buddhism it's believed that no being possesses a permanent and unchanging essence or substance separate from the rest of the reality, but there's a continuum of mental and material aggregates. Have you heard of the philosophical question of the Ship of Theseus? It's somewhat like that.

    Adepts seem to be seeking Samsara in the here and now
     
    We do not seek Samsara for we already are in Samsara. Samsara is our present unawakened and suffering state, when we are ignorant of the true nature of us and reality, a state of confusion and wrongdoing. A state lacking of freedom, full of anxiety, decay, sickness, aging and death...

    But then I’ve read that in order to achieve nirvana, one has to abandon samsara?
     
    ...but at the same time Samsara is a place of birth, joy and love.

    There are two very different views of Nirvana in Buddhism. The view of Theravada and the view of Mahayana, but for both schools it is the true and everlasting peace. To Mahayana this world is potentially Nirvana, if we purify our mind from all defilements and help forever all beings we will gain a state of everlasting joy.

    Abandoning Samsaric existence is same as doing good deeds and at the same time ceasing of all evil or selfish deeds, words and thoughts. Samsara literally means 'wandering,' when one wanders lost in a strange place...

    “Just as the great ocean has one taste, the taste of salt, so also this teaching and discipline has one taste, the taste of liberation.”

    -Buddha

     

  92. @Extrapolator
    @Coconuts

    No shit black nationalism and Afrocentrism will harm the development of African nations -- consider Rhodesia or South Africa. Already has in plenty of places.

    Otherwise this comment is very good, but you don't elucidate how the two strands work with each other, which is that the former strand -- queer/feminism/LGBT -- always beats the latter strand when they conflict. This is because anybody who gets really into wokism is predominantly concerned about this strand (either because they are gay or because society has convinced them to care about this), while those who actually care about black culture go to black churches or rap or something. Whenever the latter conflicts with the former, everyone just pretends that it doesn't.

    This is why Anatoly is right, incidentally. When wokeness spreads, it'll spread LGTB-ism wherever it goes. Because wokeness is a Western idea and Western ideas have the highest levels of memetic fitness (the idea Trubetskoy was gesturing towards, but didn't have), it will out-compete its competitors and spread, even in the Third World. (Hell, you already have trans politicians in Brazil and such.) Then it will reduce birth-rates. (His prognosis for the First World is optimistic -- I'd put more faith in direct genetic engineering than Amish/Haredi/Arkansas-Quiverfull breeder colonies if things end up working out; given France's experience I don't think selection on breeder traits happens very fast in practice -- but his prognosis for the Third World is spot on.)

    Because Western societies are open -- there is no real censorship, someone here will complain about SJWs but no one will ever come to shut down Unz and it is very easy to find -- the most convincing-sounding ideas with the greatest memetic fitness will always be exported from Western societies to others. The idea that Iran or China or Africa can resist Western fashions in the long-term is bogus (even with high fertility, but then, Iran and China don't actually *have* high fertility). Xi can go ahead and try to build a functioning society if that's what he wants. Wokeness will eventually reach China too, and win there.

    Replies: @silviosilver, @Boomthorkell, @Boomthorkell, @Coconuts, @128, @Passer by, @Jatt Aryaa

    This is why Anatoly is right, incidentally. When wokeness spreads, it’ll spread LGTB-ism wherever it goes.

    How does that make AK “right”? His thesis is not that wokism will spread, but that spreading it is a white supremacist strategy or that its spread will benefit white supremacy.

  93. @Extrapolator
    @Coconuts

    No shit black nationalism and Afrocentrism will harm the development of African nations -- consider Rhodesia or South Africa. Already has in plenty of places.

    Otherwise this comment is very good, but you don't elucidate how the two strands work with each other, which is that the former strand -- queer/feminism/LGBT -- always beats the latter strand when they conflict. This is because anybody who gets really into wokism is predominantly concerned about this strand (either because they are gay or because society has convinced them to care about this), while those who actually care about black culture go to black churches or rap or something. Whenever the latter conflicts with the former, everyone just pretends that it doesn't.

    This is why Anatoly is right, incidentally. When wokeness spreads, it'll spread LGTB-ism wherever it goes. Because wokeness is a Western idea and Western ideas have the highest levels of memetic fitness (the idea Trubetskoy was gesturing towards, but didn't have), it will out-compete its competitors and spread, even in the Third World. (Hell, you already have trans politicians in Brazil and such.) Then it will reduce birth-rates. (His prognosis for the First World is optimistic -- I'd put more faith in direct genetic engineering than Amish/Haredi/Arkansas-Quiverfull breeder colonies if things end up working out; given France's experience I don't think selection on breeder traits happens very fast in practice -- but his prognosis for the Third World is spot on.)

    Because Western societies are open -- there is no real censorship, someone here will complain about SJWs but no one will ever come to shut down Unz and it is very easy to find -- the most convincing-sounding ideas with the greatest memetic fitness will always be exported from Western societies to others. The idea that Iran or China or Africa can resist Western fashions in the long-term is bogus (even with high fertility, but then, Iran and China don't actually *have* high fertility). Xi can go ahead and try to build a functioning society if that's what he wants. Wokeness will eventually reach China too, and win there.

    Replies: @silviosilver, @Boomthorkell, @Boomthorkell, @Coconuts, @128, @Passer by, @Jatt Aryaa

    I think the logic is not that it “has” to spread, but that for a society to not absorb these memetic chaos viruses, they have to be both very intelligent and spiritual about it. Consciously subconscious, as you will. Basically, they have to create a powerful and organic alternative while also being able to match the “Gallo-Germanics” (was that it?) in technology and weaponry. Some might be close to actually pulling it off. It remains to be seen.

    • LOL: sher singh
  94. @Extrapolator
    @Coconuts

    No shit black nationalism and Afrocentrism will harm the development of African nations -- consider Rhodesia or South Africa. Already has in plenty of places.

    Otherwise this comment is very good, but you don't elucidate how the two strands work with each other, which is that the former strand -- queer/feminism/LGBT -- always beats the latter strand when they conflict. This is because anybody who gets really into wokism is predominantly concerned about this strand (either because they are gay or because society has convinced them to care about this), while those who actually care about black culture go to black churches or rap or something. Whenever the latter conflicts with the former, everyone just pretends that it doesn't.

    This is why Anatoly is right, incidentally. When wokeness spreads, it'll spread LGTB-ism wherever it goes. Because wokeness is a Western idea and Western ideas have the highest levels of memetic fitness (the idea Trubetskoy was gesturing towards, but didn't have), it will out-compete its competitors and spread, even in the Third World. (Hell, you already have trans politicians in Brazil and such.) Then it will reduce birth-rates. (His prognosis for the First World is optimistic -- I'd put more faith in direct genetic engineering than Amish/Haredi/Arkansas-Quiverfull breeder colonies if things end up working out; given France's experience I don't think selection on breeder traits happens very fast in practice -- but his prognosis for the Third World is spot on.)

    Because Western societies are open -- there is no real censorship, someone here will complain about SJWs but no one will ever come to shut down Unz and it is very easy to find -- the most convincing-sounding ideas with the greatest memetic fitness will always be exported from Western societies to others. The idea that Iran or China or Africa can resist Western fashions in the long-term is bogus (even with high fertility, but then, Iran and China don't actually *have* high fertility). Xi can go ahead and try to build a functioning society if that's what he wants. Wokeness will eventually reach China too, and win there.

    Replies: @silviosilver, @Boomthorkell, @Boomthorkell, @Coconuts, @128, @Passer by, @Jatt Aryaa

    I think the logic is not that it “has” to spread, but that for a society to not absorb these memetic chaos viruses, they have to be both very intelligent and spiritual about it. Consciously subconscious, as you will. Basically, they have to create a powerful and organic alternative while also being able to match the “Gallo-Germanics” (was that it?) in technology and weaponry. Some might be close to actually pulling it off. It remains to be seen.

  95. @A123
    @Brás Cubas

    The Fascist Stormtroopers of Antifa are the new blackshirts (1)


    Both Hitler and Mussolini were perhaps the original and most dedicated ideological warriors for social justice. But the German National Socialists and Italian Fascists represented more than a brutal force that sent stormtroopers and blackshirt thugs to shout down rivals, block free speech, break shop windows, throw tear gas at opponents, and bash heads. They also represented a nationalist, collectivist and Marxist-inspired ideology that sought a “socially just” welfare society by redistributing everyone’s wealth.
     
    You cannot have National Socialism without first having Socialism. Fascism is actually a form of far-left extremism. It is diametrically opposed to the fundamental concept of individual liberty that is core to the political right.

    The Fascist Stormtroopers of Antifa hate the idea of Constitutional Rights for individuals. To Antifa, all property belongs to the state. Invading and damaging personal property is consistent with their core Fascist belief system. Free Speech is also anathema to them. Those who dare to speak against their SJW authoritarian dogma must be silenced or coerced into conformity.

    PEACE 😇
    _______

    (1) https://www.lewrockwell.com/2019/11/lk-samuels/the-original-social-justice-warriors-hitler-and-mussolini/

    Replies: @Brás Cubas

    I think individual liberty sucks, so I must be leftwing. That’s about the only ideological belief I share with regular leftists. Thanks for telling me I’m a leftist, now go tell them. It’s no use being a club member and not being able to use the facilities.

  96. @Shortsword
    @Coconuts


    someone like DiAngelo or Applebaum
     
    How are they similar in any way? The only thing Applebaum does is shilling for Western supremacy.

    Replies: @Coconuts

    Barbara Applebaum, the Critical Whiteness academic: https://soe.syr.edu/about/directory/barbara-applebaum/

    • Replies: @Shortsword
    @Coconuts

    She doesn't even have a Wikipedia page. You should probably use the full name when there's others with the same last name that are significantly more famous.

  97. @Mr. Hack
    @Bashibuzuk

    What I call, a prophecy of things to come.

    Do Buddhists believe in the eternity of the soul? Adepts seem to be seeking Samsara in the here and now, from what I've understood from our discussions herein. But then I've read that in order to achieve nirvana, one has to abandon samsara?

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @AltanBakshi

    Do Buddhists believe in the eternity of the soul?

    We believe in an ongoing causal process that lasts as long as the causes last and changes as the causes change.

    Adepts seem to be seeking Samsara in the here and now, from what I’ve understood from our discussions herein.

    You have to be present in the here and now to lower the level of illusion you experience.

    But then I’ve read that in order to achieve nirvana, one has to abandon samsara?

    Samsara is the state of a deluded mind. Nirvana is the state of mind that is no longer deluded. What one needs to let go is ignorance and clinging to the illusions rooted in this ignorance.

    • Thanks: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @Bashibuzuk

    I wanted to click agree button, but I had already exhausted my reserves of "buttons." Sorry that I answered to question that was addressed to you. Your answer is short and well done.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

  98. @Mr. Hack
    @Bashibuzuk

    What I call, a prophecy of things to come.

    Do Buddhists believe in the eternity of the soul? Adepts seem to be seeking Samsara in the here and now, from what I've understood from our discussions herein. But then I've read that in order to achieve nirvana, one has to abandon samsara?

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @AltanBakshi

    Do Buddhists believe in the eternity of the soul?

    In Buddhism it’s believed that no being possesses a permanent and unchanging essence or substance separate from the rest of the reality, but there’s a continuum of mental and material aggregates. Have you heard of the philosophical question of the Ship of Theseus? It’s somewhat like that.

    Adepts seem to be seeking Samsara in the here and now

    We do not seek Samsara for we already are in Samsara. Samsara is our present unawakened and suffering state, when we are ignorant of the true nature of us and reality, a state of confusion and wrongdoing. A state lacking of freedom, full of anxiety, decay, sickness, aging and death…

    But then I’ve read that in order to achieve nirvana, one has to abandon samsara?

    …but at the same time Samsara is a place of birth, joy and love.

    There are two very different views of Nirvana in Buddhism. The view of Theravada and the view of Mahayana, but for both schools it is the true and everlasting peace. To Mahayana this world is potentially Nirvana, if we purify our mind from all defilements and help forever all beings we will gain a state of everlasting joy.

    Abandoning Samsaric existence is same as doing good deeds and at the same time ceasing of all evil or selfish deeds, words and thoughts. Samsara literally means ‘wandering,’ when one wanders lost in a strange place…

    “Just as the great ocean has one taste, the taste of salt, so also this teaching and discipline has one taste, the taste of liberation.”

    -Buddha

    • Thanks: Mr. Hack
  99. @Bashibuzuk
    @Mr. Hack


    Do Buddhists believe in the eternity of the soul?
     
    We believe in an ongoing causal process that lasts as long as the causes last and changes as the causes change.

    Adepts seem to be seeking Samsara in the here and now, from what I’ve understood from our discussions herein.
     
    You have to be present in the here and now to lower the level of illusion you experience.

    But then I’ve read that in order to achieve nirvana, one has to abandon samsara?

     

    Samsara is the state of a deluded mind. Nirvana is the state of mind that is no longer deluded. What one needs to let go is ignorance and clinging to the illusions rooted in this ignorance.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    I wanted to click agree button, but I had already exhausted my reserves of “buttons.” Sorry that I answered to question that was addressed to you. Your answer is short and well done.

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @AltanBakshi


    short and well done.
     
    That's what we aim at in Zen. But I am being a bad Zen Buddhist, wasting too much time on AK's blog. This community is very addictive. We have a lot of different interesting things to discuss and ponder on. But if I spent all this time and energy doing Zazen, I would probably be already Enlightened.

    😆

  100. @Anatoly Karlin
    @Passer by

    In 2100 you might have 800M Europeans and 3.5B Africans, sure.

    But it's also not out of the question that the average (native-born) TFR of said Europeans will be 2.7 and 1.3 for the Africans.

    This is hard to comprehend, because people's mental model of demographics tends to the static and even when things do change, it often takes many years to update.

    Replies: @Passer by, @Ridiculous

    No, this is hard to comprehend because it’s ridiculous and over-simplistic.

    Extrapolating how SSAs are acting in the Western world about social issues onto, say, Arabs, is devoid of logic.

    SSAs are far more promiscuous and gender equal than Arabs. In fact, in Christian areas of SSA they’ve developed fairly liberal sexual mores when you consider their level of development, not due to Western influence, it’s just natural genetic predisposition.

    Also the reservoir of non-Whites around the world already is multiple times higher than that of Whites. If you assume that wokeness is just going to increase exponentially over the next few decades then White countries are going to be so flooded and admixed that by the time your theory takes root the composition of the population will look closer to Mexico.

    I’d also love to see some in-depth sources on Slavic and Latin/Romance populations being more liberal in America than Germanic populations. That sounds very unlikely. Especially for Italians. They are not by any means more left than Germanic populations when you take Celtic and Southern English Scotch-Irish descendants out of the mix.

    • Replies: @Agathoklis
    @Ridiculous

    Second and third-generation Greek populations (if they can still be categorised as ethnic Greeks given language proficiency is often non-existent) in the Diaspora are largely conservative. I would find it very hard to believe they are less conservative than Germanic or Slavic populations. Greeks generally believe all other European populations in their host countries are soft and gay i.e. they assimilate easily and assume all the worst excesses of Western liberalism including female promiscuity (or they think that men and women can have the same number of partners and no problem).

  101. @Extrapolator
    @Coconuts

    No shit black nationalism and Afrocentrism will harm the development of African nations -- consider Rhodesia or South Africa. Already has in plenty of places.

    Otherwise this comment is very good, but you don't elucidate how the two strands work with each other, which is that the former strand -- queer/feminism/LGBT -- always beats the latter strand when they conflict. This is because anybody who gets really into wokism is predominantly concerned about this strand (either because they are gay or because society has convinced them to care about this), while those who actually care about black culture go to black churches or rap or something. Whenever the latter conflicts with the former, everyone just pretends that it doesn't.

    This is why Anatoly is right, incidentally. When wokeness spreads, it'll spread LGTB-ism wherever it goes. Because wokeness is a Western idea and Western ideas have the highest levels of memetic fitness (the idea Trubetskoy was gesturing towards, but didn't have), it will out-compete its competitors and spread, even in the Third World. (Hell, you already have trans politicians in Brazil and such.) Then it will reduce birth-rates. (His prognosis for the First World is optimistic -- I'd put more faith in direct genetic engineering than Amish/Haredi/Arkansas-Quiverfull breeder colonies if things end up working out; given France's experience I don't think selection on breeder traits happens very fast in practice -- but his prognosis for the Third World is spot on.)

    Because Western societies are open -- there is no real censorship, someone here will complain about SJWs but no one will ever come to shut down Unz and it is very easy to find -- the most convincing-sounding ideas with the greatest memetic fitness will always be exported from Western societies to others. The idea that Iran or China or Africa can resist Western fashions in the long-term is bogus (even with high fertility, but then, Iran and China don't actually *have* high fertility). Xi can go ahead and try to build a functioning society if that's what he wants. Wokeness will eventually reach China too, and win there.

    Replies: @silviosilver, @Boomthorkell, @Boomthorkell, @Coconuts, @128, @Passer by, @Jatt Aryaa

    No shit black nationalism and Afrocentrism will harm the development of African nations — consider Rhodesia or South Africa. Already has in plenty of places.

    This is true; the idea I was addressing was that somehow black nationalism and Afrocentrism were supposed to be being used to harm African development in ways which promote white supremacy and white power, this is one thing they don’t seem to have done in Rhodesia or South Africa, at least so far.

    Otherwise this comment is very good, but you don’t elucidate how the two strands work with each other, which is that the former strand — queer/feminism/LGBT — always beats the latter strand when they conflict. This is because anybody who gets really into wokism is predominantly concerned about this strand (either because they are gay or because society has convinced them to care about this), while those who actually care about black culture go to black churches or rap or something. Whenever the latter conflicts with the former, everyone just pretends that it doesn’t.

    You are partly right here, the direct origins of the present Woke movement stem from the invention (by a black lesbian feminist) of the idea of intersectionality in the early 90s. This came out of debate within the identity-politics radical left about the way in which race based oppression interacts with sexuality and gender based oppression. They came up with the idea of intersectionality, how different identity based systems of oppression are supposed to overlap, and this is a big field of study and debate for the Woke.

    At the moment it feels like white gays and lesbians, as well as white feminists, are being marginalised and pushed down to the bottom end of the ‘progressive stack’. To gain credibility whites have to be trans, genderqueer, neuro-diverse or physically disabled, obese plus feminist, lesbian etc. (Critical Fat Studies, about the oppression of the obese seemed more like a joke even a short time ago but is gaining ground). Black males can have more oppression derived status than many white identities, but black trans, black feminists, black Muslims who are gay max out on it.

    If it moved into the Third World, the post-colonial aspect would probably be significantly strengthened. Also, Wokeness has already integrated a lot postmodern content and still has some Hegelian basis, so it will try to embrace contradictions and logical incoherence in various ways, not as problems but as positive features of its worldview, while trying to keep the ‘intersectional coalition’ together as a political force.

  102. @AltanBakshi
    @Bashibuzuk

    I wanted to click agree button, but I had already exhausted my reserves of "buttons." Sorry that I answered to question that was addressed to you. Your answer is short and well done.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

    short and well done.

    That’s what we aim at in Zen. But I am being a bad Zen Buddhist, wasting too much time on AK’s blog. This community is very addictive. We have a lot of different interesting things to discuss and ponder on. But if I spent all this time and energy doing Zazen, I would probably be already Enlightened.

    😆

    • LOL: Blinky Bill
  103. @Ridiculous
    @Anatoly Karlin

    No, this is hard to comprehend because it’s ridiculous and over-simplistic.

    Extrapolating how SSAs are acting in the Western world about social issues onto, say, Arabs, is devoid of logic.

    SSAs are far more promiscuous and gender equal than Arabs. In fact, in Christian areas of SSA they’ve developed fairly liberal sexual mores when you consider their level of development, not due to Western influence, it’s just natural genetic predisposition.

    Also the reservoir of non-Whites around the world already is multiple times higher than that of Whites. If you assume that wokeness is just going to increase exponentially over the next few decades then White countries are going to be so flooded and admixed that by the time your theory takes root the composition of the population will look closer to Mexico.

    I’d also love to see some in-depth sources on Slavic and Latin/Romance populations being more liberal in America than Germanic populations. That sounds very unlikely. Especially for Italians. They are not by any means more left than Germanic populations when you take Celtic and Southern English Scotch-Irish descendants out of the mix.

    Replies: @Agathoklis

    Second and third-generation Greek populations (if they can still be categorised as ethnic Greeks given language proficiency is often non-existent) in the Diaspora are largely conservative. I would find it very hard to believe they are less conservative than Germanic or Slavic populations. Greeks generally believe all other European populations in their host countries are soft and gay i.e. they assimilate easily and assume all the worst excesses of Western liberalism including female promiscuity (or they think that men and women can have the same number of partners and no problem).

  104. @Extrapolator
    @Coconuts

    No shit black nationalism and Afrocentrism will harm the development of African nations -- consider Rhodesia or South Africa. Already has in plenty of places.

    Otherwise this comment is very good, but you don't elucidate how the two strands work with each other, which is that the former strand -- queer/feminism/LGBT -- always beats the latter strand when they conflict. This is because anybody who gets really into wokism is predominantly concerned about this strand (either because they are gay or because society has convinced them to care about this), while those who actually care about black culture go to black churches or rap or something. Whenever the latter conflicts with the former, everyone just pretends that it doesn't.

    This is why Anatoly is right, incidentally. When wokeness spreads, it'll spread LGTB-ism wherever it goes. Because wokeness is a Western idea and Western ideas have the highest levels of memetic fitness (the idea Trubetskoy was gesturing towards, but didn't have), it will out-compete its competitors and spread, even in the Third World. (Hell, you already have trans politicians in Brazil and such.) Then it will reduce birth-rates. (His prognosis for the First World is optimistic -- I'd put more faith in direct genetic engineering than Amish/Haredi/Arkansas-Quiverfull breeder colonies if things end up working out; given France's experience I don't think selection on breeder traits happens very fast in practice -- but his prognosis for the Third World is spot on.)

    Because Western societies are open -- there is no real censorship, someone here will complain about SJWs but no one will ever come to shut down Unz and it is very easy to find -- the most convincing-sounding ideas with the greatest memetic fitness will always be exported from Western societies to others. The idea that Iran or China or Africa can resist Western fashions in the long-term is bogus (even with high fertility, but then, Iran and China don't actually *have* high fertility). Xi can go ahead and try to build a functioning society if that's what he wants. Wokeness will eventually reach China too, and win there.

    Replies: @silviosilver, @Boomthorkell, @Boomthorkell, @Coconuts, @128, @Passer by, @Jatt Aryaa

    Well if this were China, this site would be shut down, and lots of authors would be in house arrest or put in a dungeon, and Mike Whitney, Atzmon, and Anglin would also be put in a dungeon or under house arrest, which may not be such a negative thing? Imagine Unz spreading stories about how China designed corona to be a biological weapon to attack Western economies, and this got a lot of traction in the Western media, Unz would also be put in a dungeon or put under house arrest. Depends on how much attention this site get if this were in China. And people like Bolsonaro and Noem, and possible De Santis would also be made to shut up or put in a dungeon if they were Chinese.

    • Replies: @Supply and Demand
    @128

    Bolsonaro, Noem, and most definitely de Santis would be vanned straight into a work camp because they are Anti-China, and therefore pro ZOGSA/Trumpenstein/globohomo.

    Replies: @128

    , @Daniel Chieh
    @128

    AI filtering of their comments and harassment is more likely than "dungeon."

    Replies: @128

  105. @Coconuts
    @Shortsword

    Barbara Applebaum, the Critical Whiteness academic: https://soe.syr.edu/about/directory/barbara-applebaum/

    Replies: @Shortsword

    She doesn’t even have a Wikipedia page. You should probably use the full name when there’s others with the same last name that are significantly more famous.

    • Agree: silviosilver
  106. Well North Korea seems to have no problem cutting itself off from wokeness, the question is whether any country wants to have the standard of living of North Korea.

  107. @128
    @Extrapolator

    Well if this were China, this site would be shut down, and lots of authors would be in house arrest or put in a dungeon, and Mike Whitney, Atzmon, and Anglin would also be put in a dungeon or under house arrest, which may not be such a negative thing? Imagine Unz spreading stories about how China designed corona to be a biological weapon to attack Western economies, and this got a lot of traction in the Western media, Unz would also be put in a dungeon or put under house arrest. Depends on how much attention this site get if this were in China. And people like Bolsonaro and Noem, and possible De Santis would also be made to shut up or put in a dungeon if they were Chinese.

    Replies: @Supply and Demand, @Daniel Chieh

    Bolsonaro, Noem, and most definitely de Santis would be vanned straight into a work camp because they are Anti-China, and therefore pro ZOGSA/Trumpenstein/globohomo.

    • Replies: @128
    @Supply and Demand

    No, I mean if they were Chinese, China just would not allow anti-vaxxers and corona skeptics and anti-lockdowners to proliferate and gain popular support, judging from the history of populist movements in Chinese history, regardless of their foreign policy stances. You really believe this site would not get cancelled in China in they took the same positions against China that they take against the US?

  108. @Supply and Demand
    @128

    Bolsonaro, Noem, and most definitely de Santis would be vanned straight into a work camp because they are Anti-China, and therefore pro ZOGSA/Trumpenstein/globohomo.

    Replies: @128

    No, I mean if they were Chinese, China just would not allow anti-vaxxers and corona skeptics and anti-lockdowners to proliferate and gain popular support, judging from the history of populist movements in Chinese history, regardless of their foreign policy stances. You really believe this site would not get cancelled in China in they took the same positions against China that they take against the US?

  109. @128
    @Extrapolator

    Well if this were China, this site would be shut down, and lots of authors would be in house arrest or put in a dungeon, and Mike Whitney, Atzmon, and Anglin would also be put in a dungeon or under house arrest, which may not be such a negative thing? Imagine Unz spreading stories about how China designed corona to be a biological weapon to attack Western economies, and this got a lot of traction in the Western media, Unz would also be put in a dungeon or put under house arrest. Depends on how much attention this site get if this were in China. And people like Bolsonaro and Noem, and possible De Santis would also be made to shut up or put in a dungeon if they were Chinese.

    Replies: @Supply and Demand, @Daniel Chieh

    AI filtering of their comments and harassment is more likely than “dungeon.”

    • Replies: @128
    @Daniel Chieh

    I did mention house arrest right?

  110. @Hyperborean
    @Passer by


    Poor people simply can not afford to be as decadent as westerners, and for them fixing poverty, or working class issues, are much more imporant than identity politics.
     
    Anglophone and Francophone Cameroonians are razing each other's villages even though only a minority can actually speak proper French (presumably the same for English) and many still retain their native languages as mother language. It is hard to get more artificial than this. Yet they are willing to commit massacres to protect this identity.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/cameroon-language-french-english-military-africa-ambazonia-a8770396.html

    Replies: @Passer by

    No, this is the old school ethnocentrism that everybody had.
    On the contrary, in the West it is modern to give up your own ethnocentric interests in favor of minorities.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    @Passer by


    No, this is the old school ethnocentrism that everybody had.
    On the contrary, in the West it is modern to give up your own ethnocentric interests.
     
    Only white gentiles, and to some schizophrenic halfway extent yellows, are giving up their interests, the rest - Jews, mestizos, Amerindians, blacks, muslims, etc. - are preaching straightforward ethnocentrism. So why is it supposed to be different?

    Replies: @Passer by

  111. @dfordoom
    @Anatoly Karlin


    Will all cultural/technological changes during 21C work to suppress fertility further
     
    Not necessarily. Helicopter parenting is a major factor in depressing fertility. Helicopter parenting is just too exhausting for more than one child. Self-driving cars that actually work would free people from having to drive their kids to soccer practice or dancing class or whatever. Robots might be capable of taking over child supervisory duties. Technology could make helicopter parenting a lot less work.

    In the West we have made child-rearing very labour-intensive but technology could change that.

    Replies: @Passer by

    On the contrary, it is the richest people who have the lowest birth rate (within societies) so the problem is not lack of capability.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
    @Passer by


    On the contrary, it is the richest people who have the lowest birth rate (within societies) so the problem is not lack of capability.
     
    Is it really true that the very richest people have the lowest birth rates? Doesn't Jeff Bezos have four kids? Mark Zuckerberg has a couple of kids. Elon Musk has six kids. My impression is that the super-rich are reproducing quite successfully. Maybe it's because helicopter parenting is easy if you have a staff to do it for you.

    Replies: @Passer by, @Passer by

  112. @Passer by
    @Hyperborean

    No, this is the old school ethnocentrism that everybody had.
    On the contrary, in the West it is modern to give up your own ethnocentric interests in favor of minorities.

    Replies: @Hyperborean

    No, this is the old school ethnocentrism that everybody had.
    On the contrary, in the West it is modern to give up your own ethnocentric interests.

    Only white gentiles, and to some schizophrenic halfway extent yellows, are giving up their interests, the rest – Jews, mestizos, Amerindians, blacks, muslims, etc. – are preaching straightforward ethnocentrism. So why is it supposed to be different?

    • Replies: @Passer by
    @Hyperborean

    It is far more different. In the West you have inverted society - the locals must give up, and the migrant groups and basically everyone must be above them. The psychologically broken and cucked locals facilitate woke behaviors.

    There is also WW2 effect (among other things) which causes the locals to try to prove how "good" they are.

    In the Third World, it is Me First for all groups. No WW2 effect there. No one feels guilty for anything. And it is this selfishness exhibited by everyone which makes woke behaviors there less likely.

    Replies: @128

  113. @Daniel Chieh
    @128

    AI filtering of their comments and harassment is more likely than "dungeon."

    Replies: @128

    I did mention house arrest right?

  114. @Extrapolator
    @Coconuts

    No shit black nationalism and Afrocentrism will harm the development of African nations -- consider Rhodesia or South Africa. Already has in plenty of places.

    Otherwise this comment is very good, but you don't elucidate how the two strands work with each other, which is that the former strand -- queer/feminism/LGBT -- always beats the latter strand when they conflict. This is because anybody who gets really into wokism is predominantly concerned about this strand (either because they are gay or because society has convinced them to care about this), while those who actually care about black culture go to black churches or rap or something. Whenever the latter conflicts with the former, everyone just pretends that it doesn't.

    This is why Anatoly is right, incidentally. When wokeness spreads, it'll spread LGTB-ism wherever it goes. Because wokeness is a Western idea and Western ideas have the highest levels of memetic fitness (the idea Trubetskoy was gesturing towards, but didn't have), it will out-compete its competitors and spread, even in the Third World. (Hell, you already have trans politicians in Brazil and such.) Then it will reduce birth-rates. (His prognosis for the First World is optimistic -- I'd put more faith in direct genetic engineering than Amish/Haredi/Arkansas-Quiverfull breeder colonies if things end up working out; given France's experience I don't think selection on breeder traits happens very fast in practice -- but his prognosis for the Third World is spot on.)

    Because Western societies are open -- there is no real censorship, someone here will complain about SJWs but no one will ever come to shut down Unz and it is very easy to find -- the most convincing-sounding ideas with the greatest memetic fitness will always be exported from Western societies to others. The idea that Iran or China or Africa can resist Western fashions in the long-term is bogus (even with high fertility, but then, Iran and China don't actually *have* high fertility). Xi can go ahead and try to build a functioning society if that's what he wants. Wokeness will eventually reach China too, and win there.

    Replies: @silviosilver, @Boomthorkell, @Boomthorkell, @Coconuts, @128, @Passer by, @Jatt Aryaa

    Because Western societies are open — there is no real censorship

    False.
    There is big censorship for anything that isn’t politically incorrect. And the US is moving towards one party Dem state. The levels of censorhip are constantly on the increase. And considering who is really behind this, you will see even higher levels of censorship.

    Otherwise this comment is very good, but you don’t elucidate how the two strands work with each other, which is that the former strand — queer/feminism/LGBT always beats the latter strand when they conflict

    No. Being white is more important, thus being a white feminist puts you below non-whites in general. The white feminist must demand open borders and the replacement of whites like herself or she will be terminated.

    The idea that Iran or China or Africa can resist Western fashions in the long-term is bogus

    Why not? Inbreeding levels in the non-West do not support that view. They lead to less individualism, more selfishness and less altruism in general in those populations.

    Look at people who protest for saving the planet and its heavily white dominated there.

  115. @Hyperborean
    @Passer by


    No, this is the old school ethnocentrism that everybody had.
    On the contrary, in the West it is modern to give up your own ethnocentric interests.
     
    Only white gentiles, and to some schizophrenic halfway extent yellows, are giving up their interests, the rest - Jews, mestizos, Amerindians, blacks, muslims, etc. - are preaching straightforward ethnocentrism. So why is it supposed to be different?

    Replies: @Passer by

    It is far more different. In the West you have inverted society – the locals must give up, and the migrant groups and basically everyone must be above them. The psychologically broken and cucked locals facilitate woke behaviors.

    There is also WW2 effect (among other things) which causes the locals to try to prove how “good” they are.

    In the Third World, it is Me First for all groups. No WW2 effect there. No one feels guilty for anything. And it is this selfishness exhibited by everyone which makes woke behaviors there less likely.

    • Replies: @128
    @Passer by

    You actually see wokism spreading in the third world from the elites down, especially those with historical ethnic based issues of disparities between different ethnic groups.

    Replies: @Passer by, @songbird

  116. @Passer by
    @Hyperborean

    It is far more different. In the West you have inverted society - the locals must give up, and the migrant groups and basically everyone must be above them. The psychologically broken and cucked locals facilitate woke behaviors.

    There is also WW2 effect (among other things) which causes the locals to try to prove how "good" they are.

    In the Third World, it is Me First for all groups. No WW2 effect there. No one feels guilty for anything. And it is this selfishness exhibited by everyone which makes woke behaviors there less likely.

    Replies: @128

    You actually see wokism spreading in the third world from the elites down, especially those with historical ethnic based issues of disparities between different ethnic groups.

    • Replies: @Passer by
    @128

    That really depends, because non-western elites too are afraid that they met get replaced if they push too much for other groups interests, and thus be replaced by other groups elites. And no matter how much one can push for such behaviors, ppl are not psychologically broken there and it is Me First culture for all groups.

    And its not in all cases, see Turkey or Russia or India or China where elites try to push in opposite direction too.

    Moreover, there is greater inter-state competition in heartland areas of the world, which facilitates more pro-unity and nationalist behaviors, while the more geographically isolated (safer) areas of the world are the more woke ones.

    So level of wokeness also has to do with level of inter-state competition. It is one thing to be Canada (isolated and safer area of the world with low interstate competition) and it is another thing to be Russia (heartland area with high inter-state competition).

    Replies: @Hyperborean

    , @songbird
    @128

    Some of this stuff may have been precipitated by demographic trends. South America has probably been becoming less white for quite a while.

    Replies: @128

  117. @128
    @Passer by

    You actually see wokism spreading in the third world from the elites down, especially those with historical ethnic based issues of disparities between different ethnic groups.

    Replies: @Passer by, @songbird

    That really depends, because non-western elites too are afraid that they met get replaced if they push too much for other groups interests, and thus be replaced by other groups elites. And no matter how much one can push for such behaviors, ppl are not psychologically broken there and it is Me First culture for all groups.

    And its not in all cases, see Turkey or Russia or India or China where elites try to push in opposite direction too.

    Moreover, there is greater inter-state competition in heartland areas of the world, which facilitates more pro-unity and nationalist behaviors, while the more geographically isolated (safer) areas of the world are the more woke ones.

    So level of wokeness also has to do with level of inter-state competition. It is one thing to be Canada (isolated and safer area of the world with low interstate competition) and it is another thing to be Russia (heartland area with high inter-state competition).

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    @Passer by


    And its not in all cases, see Turkey or Russia or India or China where elites try to push in opposite direction too.
     
    A religious and jingoistic government with control of the media, civil service and the education system yet they have been unable to turn around the country. Liberalism isn't inevitable, but neither is there some intrinsic defense against it.

    In the survey released on Monday, the Konda polling company compared the opinions of Turkish citizens between the ages of 15 to 29 from 2008 to data taken last year [article is from 2019]. Over 1,700 people were interviewed.

    According to the survey, the number of Turkish youth who consider themselves to be religious has dropped from by 7 percent to 15 percent overall. Young people who describe themselves as “modern” also increased to 43 percent from 34 percent in 2008.

    Volkan Ertit, a scholar at Aksaray University who researches secularization in Turkey, told Middle East Eye that the survey only confirms other recent academic work that have shown similar trends, including studies on the increase in sex before marriage.

    “In all honesty, this is not about Erdogan,” said Ertit. “If you had Turkish opposition leader Kemal Kilicdaroglu or late Islamic-oriented leader Necmettin Erbakan as the president, the results would have been the same.

    “You cannot control the trajectory of society. You get secularization if you have these three components: urbanisation, capitalism and science. We have them.”

    The poll found significant shifts in how young people practice their religion with the number of those who fast dropping 16 percent to 58 percent total. There was also a three percent fall among those who pray daily to 24 percent.

    Ertit said it’s now clear that opening Imam-Hatip schools has not helped the government deliver the pious generation Erdogan spoke about.

    “Different studies show students at those schools increasingly having the same lifestyle [as] non-religious school students. It changes everything if you have smartphones, and the internet. Talk to a Imam-Hatip student. They would tell you that they have flirting in their school,” he said.

    Erdogan last year was taped as he reprimanded then-minister of education, Ismet Yilmaz, about a survey conducted by the ministry’s local branch in the city of Konya, which showed that many Imam-Hatip students believed in God but had a disdain for established religion.

    “It can’t be!” Erdogan told the minister in comments captured by an open mic.

    The poll also indicates that young people are becoming more tolerant. The respondents who say they can have a son-in-law or daughter-in-law with different religious beliefs increased by 17 percent to 64 percent. Interviewees who said they would be okay if their children had different sexual orientations than them rose 9 percent to 21 percent.

     

    https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/turkish-youth-increasingly-secular-and-modern-under-erdogan-poll-finds

    Turkey’s revised average rate of births shows that as of 2019 the fertility rate dropped sharply from 2.069 babies per woman to 1.88, Guven Sak, a columnist at Hurriyet Daily News has noted.

    He wrote: “Sixty years ago, Turkey’s fertility rate was about three times higher than that of Sweden. Yes, in 1960, the fertility rate was 2.17 in Sweden and 6.41 in Turkey. This meant that Turkey’s fertility rate was above the world average of five children per woman. At that time, only about 30 percent of Turks were living in urban areas.

    “As of last year, the Turkish fertility rate is very close to the Swedish rate of 1.76 and is lower than the world average today. The fertility rate in the EU-27 was 1.55 in 2018, which means that Turkey is not too far off from the bloc as a whole either.”

    In the last 60 years, observed Sak, Turkey has turned into an industrial country and its urbanisation rate is now higher than 75%. “Turkey’s economic transformation has meant that people chose to have fewer children, but wanted more opportunity for the ones they did have,” he added.

    In 2002, when the ruling party AKP first came to power, Turkey’s fertility rate was already 2.4 and below the world average, said Sak. “That downward trend continued seamlessly in the last 18 years, despite frequent calls by President Recep Tayyip Erdogan to have at least three kids (a mantra he repeats at every wedding he presides over). Turkey’s population is still changing with internal and recently international migration. When families move from Sanlıurfa, a province where the fertility rate is still 3.89, to Istanbul, their average birth rates decline drastically,” he also noted.

    Sak concluded: “The Turkish demographic convergence with Europe continues despite political calls for larger families. When it comes to what’s happening on the ground, economic reality continues to cut across the political soundtrack. Conservatives who want larger families are in a tough spot. They could either manage the economy well, which would mean that people naturally don’t want as many children, or they could manage it badly, and people won’t be able to afford as many children. Either way, Turkey converges with Europe on some of the most basic social indicators.”

     

    https://www.intellinews.com/turkey-sees-sharp-drop-in-fertility-rate-to-near-swedish-level-190060/

    Only the Kurds and Syrians are above replacement level:

    https://i.redd.it/u2hh1my78ty01.jpg

    https://i.redd.it/nwf9f24g4xe11.jpg

    The survey also delved into health figures for women in the Syrian refugee population. The biggest Syrian refugee population in the region lives in Turkey, with over 3.5 million people. The fertility rate among Syrian women was 5.3 children per woman on average, and the average ideal number of children among married Syrian women between the ages of 15 and 49 was 4.1. Contraception use among married Syrian women was 43%. The survey says 21% of Syrian refugee women were in need of family planning while 21% of Syrian refugee children were unregistered with authorities.
     
    https://www.dailysabah.com/turkey/2019/11/08/aging-population-on-the-rise-families-shrinking-in-turkey-survey

    Replies: @Passer by, @Passer by, @dfordoom

  118. @128
    @Passer by

    You actually see wokism spreading in the third world from the elites down, especially those with historical ethnic based issues of disparities between different ethnic groups.

    Replies: @Passer by, @songbird

    Some of this stuff may have been precipitated by demographic trends. South America has probably been becoming less white for quite a while.

    • Replies: @128
    @songbird

    If I were the King of Thailand, I would look at how the children have been getting educated lately, but that is just my 0.02 baht worth. Plus unlike Filipinos, the vast majority of Thais, even in Bangkok, can barely string together even a paragraph of grade school level English, which should have provided a security barrier.

    Replies: @songbird, @Daniel Chieh

  119. @songbird
    @128

    Some of this stuff may have been precipitated by demographic trends. South America has probably been becoming less white for quite a while.

    Replies: @128

    If I were the King of Thailand, I would look at how the children have been getting educated lately, but that is just my 0.02 baht worth. Plus unlike Filipinos, the vast majority of Thais, even in Bangkok, can barely string together even a paragraph of grade school level English, which should have provided a security barrier.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @128

    I don't know a lot about Thailand, but it is probably a bad sign when you have a home-grown group of trannies commercially touring other countries for stage performances. Trannies score high on narcissism so they are really good at fomenting this woke stuff.

    Why is Thailand so known for trannies? I wonder if it is just an after effect of the big American bases there that closed in 1975. Or maybe, it is simply that communism didn't win there. I mean, China has a lot of sex workers now, but for at least a short while the whole operation was basically closed down.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    , @Daniel Chieh
    @128

    Japan, and I think Hungary, also practices this "English is the language of poz" defense.

  120. @utu
    @Europe Europa

    Nationalist right missed the opportunity that the pandemic presented the most by opposing the countermeasures which were in essence nationalistic about protecting your country and your people from viral contagion that came form abroad. Borders could have been closed and immigration could have been frozen and the nature of external enemy could have been articulated. Instead the Rightoids with their libertarian streak dominated by opposing concerted actions and once again demonstrating that they always miss the big picture by their inability to think in terms of group interests forever caught in the prisoner dilemma of losing options determined by short-term personal self interest.

    Replies: @marquess

    Nationalist right missed the opportunity that the pandemic presented the most by opposing the countermeasures which were in essence nationalistic about protecting your country and your people from viral contagion that came form abroad. Borders could have been closed and immigration could have been frozen and the nature of external enemy could have been articulated. Instead the Rightoids with their libertarian streak dominated by opposing concerted actions and once again demonstrating that they always miss the big picture by their inability to think in terms of group interests forever caught in the prisoner dilemma of losing options determined by short-term personal self interest.

    In the US at least, that was how Covid-19 was originally interpreted by the Right. That it would support Trump and his agenda, anti-immigrationism, hawkishness against China, etc.

    But after a few months, it began to dawn on the Right that Covid-19, the lockdowns could hurt Trump’s election chances. Especially since the media, medical, and public health establishments tend to be dominated by the Left. So that is why the Right in the US became skeptical or hostile to the response and lockdowns. Rightoids used conspiracy theorizing and libertarianism to rationalize their opposition, but that was mainly post hoc rationalization. The main driver for their skepticism and opposition was that it would be bad for Trump’s election chances and the Right’s political power.

    • Replies: @utu
    @marquess

    I am not sure I can agree. I do not remember voices on the Right that would advocated strong countermeasures except for stopping flights from China. No voices about stopping flights from Italy.

  121. @128
    @songbird

    If I were the King of Thailand, I would look at how the children have been getting educated lately, but that is just my 0.02 baht worth. Plus unlike Filipinos, the vast majority of Thais, even in Bangkok, can barely string together even a paragraph of grade school level English, which should have provided a security barrier.

    Replies: @songbird, @Daniel Chieh

    I don’t know a lot about Thailand, but it is probably a bad sign when you have a home-grown group of trannies commercially touring other countries for stage performances. Trannies score high on narcissism so they are really good at fomenting this woke stuff.

    Why is Thailand so known for trannies? I wonder if it is just an after effect of the big American bases there that closed in 1975. Or maybe, it is simply that communism didn’t win there. I mean, China has a lot of sex workers now, but for at least a short while the whole operation was basically closed down.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    @songbird


    I mean, China has a lot of sex workers now, but for at least a short while the whole operation was basically closed down
     
    Toasted. Praise Xi Dada.

    I'm not sure how well puritanism will work in the long run but it's pretty impressive so far. Praise the Machine God soon, I hope.

    Replies: @songbird

  122. Until Fake Woke gets real, Dream On.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    @thotmonger

    Name checks out.

  123. @Europe Europa
    I actually think the nationalist right have been the biggest losers of the pandemic. Opposition to the lockdown has mainly come from an odd alliance of anti-lockdown conservatives, BLM and ANTIFA. I would have thought that leading the anti-lockdown movement would be the natural territory of the Alt-Right/nationalists, but in reality they have been surprisingly absent from such movements.

    The pandemic has made it clear that peoples' allegiances are more complex than simply being along racial and nationality lines. Many right wing types are forming alliances with non-whites and immigrants over the lockdown when previously such a notion would have been absurd.

    Replies: @utu, @utu, @marquess

    The pandemic has made it clear that peoples’ allegiances are more complex than simply being along racial and nationality lines. Many right wing types are forming alliances with non-whites and immigrants over the lockdown when previously such a notion would have been absurd.

    Actually I believe it demonstrates that people’s allegiances largely fall along racial/nationality lines.

    With increasing diversity in a polity, you see a decline in “asabiya” and more spiteful behavior.

    The Right in the US serves in large part as an implicitly white identity. It views the Left which dominates the media and public health elites as relatively less white and hostile to white American interests and culture. Thus it is reflexively skeptical of policy coming from the media and public health elites. Furthermore, as the overall population is increasingly non-white, there is subconsciously less concern about the general public and welfare. It is not necessarily a conscious, deliberate, “racist” hostility. More a subconscious decline of “asabiya.”

    Blacks have long been skeptical of vaccines and other policies for the same reason: that they are devised and come from an out-group, namely whites. Blacks are the group most skeptical and opposed to vaccines.

    So the alliance between Right wing whites and other groups like blacks over the lockdowns and vaccines is not a great mystery.

  124. @128
    @songbird

    If I were the King of Thailand, I would look at how the children have been getting educated lately, but that is just my 0.02 baht worth. Plus unlike Filipinos, the vast majority of Thais, even in Bangkok, can barely string together even a paragraph of grade school level English, which should have provided a security barrier.

    Replies: @songbird, @Daniel Chieh

    Japan, and I think Hungary, also practices this “English is the language of poz” defense.

  125. @songbird
    @128

    I don't know a lot about Thailand, but it is probably a bad sign when you have a home-grown group of trannies commercially touring other countries for stage performances. Trannies score high on narcissism so they are really good at fomenting this woke stuff.

    Why is Thailand so known for trannies? I wonder if it is just an after effect of the big American bases there that closed in 1975. Or maybe, it is simply that communism didn't win there. I mean, China has a lot of sex workers now, but for at least a short while the whole operation was basically closed down.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    I mean, China has a lot of sex workers now, but for at least a short while the whole operation was basically closed down

    Toasted. Praise Xi Dada.

    I’m not sure how well puritanism will work in the long run but it’s pretty impressive so far. Praise the Machine God soon, I hope.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @Daniel Chieh

    Did he really crack down on it? What I heard is that it often has local police support, and crackdowns are done fleetingly, when CCP big shots are in town. (don't know how reliable the source is)

    Never knew that it is legal in HK and Macau. I find that very interesting. I mean, I know "one country, two systems", but there's something almost amusing about prostitution being legal in the places that are most associated with foreigners, at least on a historical level.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh

  126. Wokeness is so terribly costly that it is not sustainable. We are literally falling apart due to it. I give it another 5 to 10 years before it gets major roll backs. However damage is already done.

    • Disagree: Daniel Chieh
  127. @Daniel Chieh
    @songbird


    I mean, China has a lot of sex workers now, but for at least a short while the whole operation was basically closed down
     
    Toasted. Praise Xi Dada.

    I'm not sure how well puritanism will work in the long run but it's pretty impressive so far. Praise the Machine God soon, I hope.

    Replies: @songbird

    Did he really crack down on it? What I heard is that it often has local police support, and crackdowns are done fleetingly, when CCP big shots are in town. (don’t know how reliable the source is)

    Never knew that it is legal in HK and Macau. I find that very interesting. I mean, I know “one country, two systems”, but there’s something almost amusing about prostitution being legal in the places that are most associated with foreigners, at least on a historical level.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    @songbird

    His crackdowns are quite serious from what I've heard; reversing a situations where prostitutes clamored outside of hotels to being basically absent. Its part of the "fear atmosphere" that some people have accused of, but he's also wiped out a lot of the assumed acceptable level of corruption before, drug use, etc.

    The Party apparatus is quite serious now, but its also crushing for those accustomed to a more "free" hand, including individuals in the government who previously once overlooked such things. Its one reason for monetary flight, as such individuals(and their families) try to escape and find a bolt hole for themselves and their money before the soft touch of Xi's inquisitors reach them.

    Replies: @Dreadilk, @antibeast

  128. @songbird
    @Daniel Chieh

    Did he really crack down on it? What I heard is that it often has local police support, and crackdowns are done fleetingly, when CCP big shots are in town. (don't know how reliable the source is)

    Never knew that it is legal in HK and Macau. I find that very interesting. I mean, I know "one country, two systems", but there's something almost amusing about prostitution being legal in the places that are most associated with foreigners, at least on a historical level.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    His crackdowns are quite serious from what I’ve heard; reversing a situations where prostitutes clamored outside of hotels to being basically absent. Its part of the “fear atmosphere” that some people have accused of, but he’s also wiped out a lot of the assumed acceptable level of corruption before, drug use, etc.

    The Party apparatus is quite serious now, but its also crushing for those accustomed to a more “free” hand, including individuals in the government who previously once overlooked such things. Its one reason for monetary flight, as such individuals(and their families) try to escape and find a bolt hole for themselves and their money before the soft touch of Xi’s inquisitors reach them.

    • Thanks: songbird
    • Replies: @Dreadilk
    @Daniel Chieh

    We need a "Nice" option for response without reply.

    , @antibeast
    @Daniel Chieh

    Xi's crackdown on graft and corruption entailed closing down notorious sex industries such as the one in Dongguan. Xi's motive was not driven by puritanical impulses but by political interests as he wanted to consolidate his power by purging the Party, Army and State of Deng's proteges. To show that he meant business, Xi cracked down hard on all manner of vices that ensnared corrupt officials, such as mistresses, gambling, prostitution, etc., which basically wiped out his slate clean for him to appoint his proteges. Catching an official in the act with their mistresses so to speak is much easier to prosecute than trying to search for his ill-gotten wealth which would have been laundered away in some offshore property or bank account. Aside from gaining public favor, Xi's move allowed him to paint a new image of a clean China which has spread throughout the world.

    The West - as represented by its media and politicians -- has been critical of Xi's moves precisely because Xi purged their clients -- the Dengist Kleptocracy -- from the corridors of power in China. All their silly attempts at gunboat diplomacy won't deter China because they have to deal with Xi's nationalists who are now in power in China.

  129. @marquess
    @utu


    Nationalist right missed the opportunity that the pandemic presented the most by opposing the countermeasures which were in essence nationalistic about protecting your country and your people from viral contagion that came form abroad. Borders could have been closed and immigration could have been frozen and the nature of external enemy could have been articulated. Instead the Rightoids with their libertarian streak dominated by opposing concerted actions and once again demonstrating that they always miss the big picture by their inability to think in terms of group interests forever caught in the prisoner dilemma of losing options determined by short-term personal self interest.
     
    In the US at least, that was how Covid-19 was originally interpreted by the Right. That it would support Trump and his agenda, anti-immigrationism, hawkishness against China, etc.

    But after a few months, it began to dawn on the Right that Covid-19, the lockdowns could hurt Trump's election chances. Especially since the media, medical, and public health establishments tend to be dominated by the Left. So that is why the Right in the US became skeptical or hostile to the response and lockdowns. Rightoids used conspiracy theorizing and libertarianism to rationalize their opposition, but that was mainly post hoc rationalization. The main driver for their skepticism and opposition was that it would be bad for Trump's election chances and the Right's political power.

    Replies: @utu

    I am not sure I can agree. I do not remember voices on the Right that would advocated strong countermeasures except for stopping flights from China. No voices about stopping flights from Italy.

    • Agree: EldnahYm
  130. Alastair Crooke has written a lot of interesting stuff on woke as an attempt by the elite in the West to retain control, as the economy disintegrates.

  131. I’d be very happy to eat crow but I’ll hold off on undue optimism until this euro breeding explosion materializes in France.

    And as much as preventing the eventual outbreeding destruction of euro ethnics is positive, this vision of the future where there’s been a total global cultural genocide in order to make room for “wokeness” itself is a depressing prospect.

  132. @Passer by
    @128

    That really depends, because non-western elites too are afraid that they met get replaced if they push too much for other groups interests, and thus be replaced by other groups elites. And no matter how much one can push for such behaviors, ppl are not psychologically broken there and it is Me First culture for all groups.

    And its not in all cases, see Turkey or Russia or India or China where elites try to push in opposite direction too.

    Moreover, there is greater inter-state competition in heartland areas of the world, which facilitates more pro-unity and nationalist behaviors, while the more geographically isolated (safer) areas of the world are the more woke ones.

    So level of wokeness also has to do with level of inter-state competition. It is one thing to be Canada (isolated and safer area of the world with low interstate competition) and it is another thing to be Russia (heartland area with high inter-state competition).

    Replies: @Hyperborean

    And its not in all cases, see Turkey or Russia or India or China where elites try to push in opposite direction too.

    A religious and jingoistic government with control of the media, civil service and the education system yet they have been unable to turn around the country. Liberalism isn’t inevitable, but neither is there some intrinsic defense against it.

    In the survey released on Monday, the Konda polling company compared the opinions of Turkish citizens between the ages of 15 to 29 from 2008 to data taken last year [article is from 2019]. Over 1,700 people were interviewed.

    According to the survey, the number of Turkish youth who consider themselves to be religious has dropped from by 7 percent to 15 percent overall. Young people who describe themselves as “modern” also increased to 43 percent from 34 percent in 2008.

    Volkan Ertit, a scholar at Aksaray University who researches secularization in Turkey, told Middle East Eye that the survey only confirms other recent academic work that have shown similar trends, including studies on the increase in sex before marriage.

    “In all honesty, this is not about Erdogan,” said Ertit. “If you had Turkish opposition leader Kemal Kilicdaroglu or late Islamic-oriented leader Necmettin Erbakan as the president, the results would have been the same.

    “You cannot control the trajectory of society. You get secularization if you have these three components: urbanisation, capitalism and science. We have them.”

    The poll found significant shifts in how young people practice their religion with the number of those who fast dropping 16 percent to 58 percent total. There was also a three percent fall among those who pray daily to 24 percent.

    Ertit said it’s now clear that opening Imam-Hatip schools has not helped the government deliver the pious generation Erdogan spoke about.

    “Different studies show students at those schools increasingly having the same lifestyle [as] non-religious school students. It changes everything if you have smartphones, and the internet. Talk to a Imam-Hatip student. They would tell you that they have flirting in their school,” he said.

    Erdogan last year was taped as he reprimanded then-minister of education, Ismet Yilmaz, about a survey conducted by the ministry’s local branch in the city of Konya, which showed that many Imam-Hatip students believed in God but had a disdain for established religion.

    “It can’t be!” Erdogan told the minister in comments captured by an open mic.

    The poll also indicates that young people are becoming more tolerant. The respondents who say they can have a son-in-law or daughter-in-law with different religious beliefs increased by 17 percent to 64 percent. Interviewees who said they would be okay if their children had different sexual orientations than them rose 9 percent to 21 percent.

    https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/turkish-youth-increasingly-secular-and-modern-under-erdogan-poll-finds

    Turkey’s revised average rate of births shows that as of 2019 the fertility rate dropped sharply from 2.069 babies per woman to 1.88, Guven Sak, a columnist at Hurriyet Daily News has noted.

    He wrote: “Sixty years ago, Turkey’s fertility rate was about three times higher than that of Sweden. Yes, in 1960, the fertility rate was 2.17 in Sweden and 6.41 in Turkey. This meant that Turkey’s fertility rate was above the world average of five children per woman. At that time, only about 30 percent of Turks were living in urban areas.

    “As of last year, the Turkish fertility rate is very close to the Swedish rate of 1.76 and is lower than the world average today. The fertility rate in the EU-27 was 1.55 in 2018, which means that Turkey is not too far off from the bloc as a whole either.”

    In the last 60 years, observed Sak, Turkey has turned into an industrial country and its urbanisation rate is now higher than 75%. “Turkey’s economic transformation has meant that people chose to have fewer children, but wanted more opportunity for the ones they did have,” he added.

    In 2002, when the ruling party AKP first came to power, Turkey’s fertility rate was already 2.4 and below the world average, said Sak. “That downward trend continued seamlessly in the last 18 years, despite frequent calls by President Recep Tayyip Erdogan to have at least three kids (a mantra he repeats at every wedding he presides over). Turkey’s population is still changing with internal and recently international migration. When families move from Sanlıurfa, a province where the fertility rate is still 3.89, to Istanbul, their average birth rates decline drastically,” he also noted.

    Sak concluded: “The Turkish demographic convergence with Europe continues despite political calls for larger families. When it comes to what’s happening on the ground, economic reality continues to cut across the political soundtrack. Conservatives who want larger families are in a tough spot. They could either manage the economy well, which would mean that people naturally don’t want as many children, or they could manage it badly, and people won’t be able to afford as many children. Either way, Turkey converges with Europe on some of the most basic social indicators.”

    https://www.intellinews.com/turkey-sees-sharp-drop-in-fertility-rate-to-near-swedish-level-190060/

    Only the Kurds and Syrians are above replacement level:

    The survey also delved into health figures for women in the Syrian refugee population. The biggest Syrian refugee population in the region lives in Turkey, with over 3.5 million people. The fertility rate among Syrian women was 5.3 children per woman on average, and the average ideal number of children among married Syrian women between the ages of 15 and 49 was 4.1. Contraception use among married Syrian women was 43%. The survey says 21% of Syrian refugee women were in need of family planning while 21% of Syrian refugee children were unregistered with authorities.

    https://www.dailysabah.com/turkey/2019/11/08/aging-population-on-the-rise-families-shrinking-in-turkey-survey

    • Thanks: Bashibuzuk
    • Replies: @Passer by
    @Hyperborean


    You get secularization if you have these three components: urbanisation, capitalism and science.
     
    Not necessarily, see Israel. Religion is flourishing there, and is changing the demographics of the country towards more non-ashkenazi (non-liberal) demographics.

    Btw i see Israel as a non-western country.

    As for the rest on Turkey, apparently they decided to counteract these processes by importing arabs.

    The latest is that Turkey just left the Istanbul Convention.

    , @Passer by
    @Hyperborean

    And really, “secularism” in muslim countries is a whole other beast than what is understood in the West. For example in “secular Syria” or Mubarak’s Egypt it wasn’t allowed for muslims to convert to a non-muslim religion. Also when a muslim and non-muslim marry, the children must become muslims, and the non-muslim spouse must convert to Islam. Proselytism by non-muslim groups was not allowed. For more on "secularism" in Middle Eastern countries see State Department reports.

    There is no case of muslim country in the world giving citizenship to non-trivial amount of non-muslim immigrants. They basically make the life of non-muslims miserable and thus the non-muslim minorities are constantly declining in muslim countries.

    Replies: @Hyperborean

    , @dfordoom
    @Hyperborean


    “Turkey’s economic transformation has meant that people chose to have fewer children, but wanted more opportunity for the ones they did have,” he added.
     
    Capitalism, technology, urbanisation and rising prosperity means you can provide excellent opportunities for your offspring if you only have one offspring, and you can do so whilst still having lots of very pleasant options for yourself (a nice house in a nice neighbourhood, a new car, nice holidays).

    Capitalism, technology, urbanisation and rising prosperity all lead to greater choices and increasingly (from an individual point of view) the rational choice for most couples is one child. And from a purely individual standpoint it's a very sensible choice.

    It might be bad for society but in a society that has capitalism, technology, urbanisation and rising prosperity no-one cares about the interests of society. Such societies inevitably become more focused on the individual.

    So how do you get capitalism, technology, urbanisation and rising prosperity without demographic collapse? No amount of wishful thinking about breeder genes is going to change anything.

    You need a way of creating a successful prosperous society without that focus on individualism. I have no idea how that can be achieved. Religion isn't going to help.

    Replies: @EldnahYm

  133. @Daniel Chieh
    @songbird

    His crackdowns are quite serious from what I've heard; reversing a situations where prostitutes clamored outside of hotels to being basically absent. Its part of the "fear atmosphere" that some people have accused of, but he's also wiped out a lot of the assumed acceptable level of corruption before, drug use, etc.

    The Party apparatus is quite serious now, but its also crushing for those accustomed to a more "free" hand, including individuals in the government who previously once overlooked such things. Its one reason for monetary flight, as such individuals(and their families) try to escape and find a bolt hole for themselves and their money before the soft touch of Xi's inquisitors reach them.

    Replies: @Dreadilk, @antibeast

    We need a “Nice” option for response without reply.

  134. @Hyperborean
    @Passer by


    And its not in all cases, see Turkey or Russia or India or China where elites try to push in opposite direction too.
     
    A religious and jingoistic government with control of the media, civil service and the education system yet they have been unable to turn around the country. Liberalism isn't inevitable, but neither is there some intrinsic defense against it.

    In the survey released on Monday, the Konda polling company compared the opinions of Turkish citizens between the ages of 15 to 29 from 2008 to data taken last year [article is from 2019]. Over 1,700 people were interviewed.

    According to the survey, the number of Turkish youth who consider themselves to be religious has dropped from by 7 percent to 15 percent overall. Young people who describe themselves as “modern” also increased to 43 percent from 34 percent in 2008.

    Volkan Ertit, a scholar at Aksaray University who researches secularization in Turkey, told Middle East Eye that the survey only confirms other recent academic work that have shown similar trends, including studies on the increase in sex before marriage.

    “In all honesty, this is not about Erdogan,” said Ertit. “If you had Turkish opposition leader Kemal Kilicdaroglu or late Islamic-oriented leader Necmettin Erbakan as the president, the results would have been the same.

    “You cannot control the trajectory of society. You get secularization if you have these three components: urbanisation, capitalism and science. We have them.”

    The poll found significant shifts in how young people practice their religion with the number of those who fast dropping 16 percent to 58 percent total. There was also a three percent fall among those who pray daily to 24 percent.

    Ertit said it’s now clear that opening Imam-Hatip schools has not helped the government deliver the pious generation Erdogan spoke about.

    “Different studies show students at those schools increasingly having the same lifestyle [as] non-religious school students. It changes everything if you have smartphones, and the internet. Talk to a Imam-Hatip student. They would tell you that they have flirting in their school,” he said.

    Erdogan last year was taped as he reprimanded then-minister of education, Ismet Yilmaz, about a survey conducted by the ministry’s local branch in the city of Konya, which showed that many Imam-Hatip students believed in God but had a disdain for established religion.

    “It can’t be!” Erdogan told the minister in comments captured by an open mic.

    The poll also indicates that young people are becoming more tolerant. The respondents who say they can have a son-in-law or daughter-in-law with different religious beliefs increased by 17 percent to 64 percent. Interviewees who said they would be okay if their children had different sexual orientations than them rose 9 percent to 21 percent.

     

    https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/turkish-youth-increasingly-secular-and-modern-under-erdogan-poll-finds

    Turkey’s revised average rate of births shows that as of 2019 the fertility rate dropped sharply from 2.069 babies per woman to 1.88, Guven Sak, a columnist at Hurriyet Daily News has noted.

    He wrote: “Sixty years ago, Turkey’s fertility rate was about three times higher than that of Sweden. Yes, in 1960, the fertility rate was 2.17 in Sweden and 6.41 in Turkey. This meant that Turkey’s fertility rate was above the world average of five children per woman. At that time, only about 30 percent of Turks were living in urban areas.

    “As of last year, the Turkish fertility rate is very close to the Swedish rate of 1.76 and is lower than the world average today. The fertility rate in the EU-27 was 1.55 in 2018, which means that Turkey is not too far off from the bloc as a whole either.”

    In the last 60 years, observed Sak, Turkey has turned into an industrial country and its urbanisation rate is now higher than 75%. “Turkey’s economic transformation has meant that people chose to have fewer children, but wanted more opportunity for the ones they did have,” he added.

    In 2002, when the ruling party AKP first came to power, Turkey’s fertility rate was already 2.4 and below the world average, said Sak. “That downward trend continued seamlessly in the last 18 years, despite frequent calls by President Recep Tayyip Erdogan to have at least three kids (a mantra he repeats at every wedding he presides over). Turkey’s population is still changing with internal and recently international migration. When families move from Sanlıurfa, a province where the fertility rate is still 3.89, to Istanbul, their average birth rates decline drastically,” he also noted.

    Sak concluded: “The Turkish demographic convergence with Europe continues despite political calls for larger families. When it comes to what’s happening on the ground, economic reality continues to cut across the political soundtrack. Conservatives who want larger families are in a tough spot. They could either manage the economy well, which would mean that people naturally don’t want as many children, or they could manage it badly, and people won’t be able to afford as many children. Either way, Turkey converges with Europe on some of the most basic social indicators.”

     

    https://www.intellinews.com/turkey-sees-sharp-drop-in-fertility-rate-to-near-swedish-level-190060/

    Only the Kurds and Syrians are above replacement level:

    https://i.redd.it/u2hh1my78ty01.jpg

    https://i.redd.it/nwf9f24g4xe11.jpg

    The survey also delved into health figures for women in the Syrian refugee population. The biggest Syrian refugee population in the region lives in Turkey, with over 3.5 million people. The fertility rate among Syrian women was 5.3 children per woman on average, and the average ideal number of children among married Syrian women between the ages of 15 and 49 was 4.1. Contraception use among married Syrian women was 43%. The survey says 21% of Syrian refugee women were in need of family planning while 21% of Syrian refugee children were unregistered with authorities.
     
    https://www.dailysabah.com/turkey/2019/11/08/aging-population-on-the-rise-families-shrinking-in-turkey-survey

    Replies: @Passer by, @Passer by, @dfordoom

    You get secularization if you have these three components: urbanisation, capitalism and science.

    Not necessarily, see Israel. Religion is flourishing there, and is changing the demographics of the country towards more non-ashkenazi (non-liberal) demographics.

    Btw i see Israel as a non-western country.

    As for the rest on Turkey, apparently they decided to counteract these processes by importing arabs.

    The latest is that Turkey just left the Istanbul Convention.

  135. @Hyperborean
    @Passer by


    And its not in all cases, see Turkey or Russia or India or China where elites try to push in opposite direction too.
     
    A religious and jingoistic government with control of the media, civil service and the education system yet they have been unable to turn around the country. Liberalism isn't inevitable, but neither is there some intrinsic defense against it.

    In the survey released on Monday, the Konda polling company compared the opinions of Turkish citizens between the ages of 15 to 29 from 2008 to data taken last year [article is from 2019]. Over 1,700 people were interviewed.

    According to the survey, the number of Turkish youth who consider themselves to be religious has dropped from by 7 percent to 15 percent overall. Young people who describe themselves as “modern” also increased to 43 percent from 34 percent in 2008.

    Volkan Ertit, a scholar at Aksaray University who researches secularization in Turkey, told Middle East Eye that the survey only confirms other recent academic work that have shown similar trends, including studies on the increase in sex before marriage.

    “In all honesty, this is not about Erdogan,” said Ertit. “If you had Turkish opposition leader Kemal Kilicdaroglu or late Islamic-oriented leader Necmettin Erbakan as the president, the results would have been the same.

    “You cannot control the trajectory of society. You get secularization if you have these three components: urbanisation, capitalism and science. We have them.”

    The poll found significant shifts in how young people practice their religion with the number of those who fast dropping 16 percent to 58 percent total. There was also a three percent fall among those who pray daily to 24 percent.

    Ertit said it’s now clear that opening Imam-Hatip schools has not helped the government deliver the pious generation Erdogan spoke about.

    “Different studies show students at those schools increasingly having the same lifestyle [as] non-religious school students. It changes everything if you have smartphones, and the internet. Talk to a Imam-Hatip student. They would tell you that they have flirting in their school,” he said.

    Erdogan last year was taped as he reprimanded then-minister of education, Ismet Yilmaz, about a survey conducted by the ministry’s local branch in the city of Konya, which showed that many Imam-Hatip students believed in God but had a disdain for established religion.

    “It can’t be!” Erdogan told the minister in comments captured by an open mic.

    The poll also indicates that young people are becoming more tolerant. The respondents who say they can have a son-in-law or daughter-in-law with different religious beliefs increased by 17 percent to 64 percent. Interviewees who said they would be okay if their children had different sexual orientations than them rose 9 percent to 21 percent.

     

    https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/turkish-youth-increasingly-secular-and-modern-under-erdogan-poll-finds

    Turkey’s revised average rate of births shows that as of 2019 the fertility rate dropped sharply from 2.069 babies per woman to 1.88, Guven Sak, a columnist at Hurriyet Daily News has noted.

    He wrote: “Sixty years ago, Turkey’s fertility rate was about three times higher than that of Sweden. Yes, in 1960, the fertility rate was 2.17 in Sweden and 6.41 in Turkey. This meant that Turkey’s fertility rate was above the world average of five children per woman. At that time, only about 30 percent of Turks were living in urban areas.

    “As of last year, the Turkish fertility rate is very close to the Swedish rate of 1.76 and is lower than the world average today. The fertility rate in the EU-27 was 1.55 in 2018, which means that Turkey is not too far off from the bloc as a whole either.”

    In the last 60 years, observed Sak, Turkey has turned into an industrial country and its urbanisation rate is now higher than 75%. “Turkey’s economic transformation has meant that people chose to have fewer children, but wanted more opportunity for the ones they did have,” he added.

    In 2002, when the ruling party AKP first came to power, Turkey’s fertility rate was already 2.4 and below the world average, said Sak. “That downward trend continued seamlessly in the last 18 years, despite frequent calls by President Recep Tayyip Erdogan to have at least three kids (a mantra he repeats at every wedding he presides over). Turkey’s population is still changing with internal and recently international migration. When families move from Sanlıurfa, a province where the fertility rate is still 3.89, to Istanbul, their average birth rates decline drastically,” he also noted.

    Sak concluded: “The Turkish demographic convergence with Europe continues despite political calls for larger families. When it comes to what’s happening on the ground, economic reality continues to cut across the political soundtrack. Conservatives who want larger families are in a tough spot. They could either manage the economy well, which would mean that people naturally don’t want as many children, or they could manage it badly, and people won’t be able to afford as many children. Either way, Turkey converges with Europe on some of the most basic social indicators.”

     

    https://www.intellinews.com/turkey-sees-sharp-drop-in-fertility-rate-to-near-swedish-level-190060/

    Only the Kurds and Syrians are above replacement level:

    https://i.redd.it/u2hh1my78ty01.jpg

    https://i.redd.it/nwf9f24g4xe11.jpg

    The survey also delved into health figures for women in the Syrian refugee population. The biggest Syrian refugee population in the region lives in Turkey, with over 3.5 million people. The fertility rate among Syrian women was 5.3 children per woman on average, and the average ideal number of children among married Syrian women between the ages of 15 and 49 was 4.1. Contraception use among married Syrian women was 43%. The survey says 21% of Syrian refugee women were in need of family planning while 21% of Syrian refugee children were unregistered with authorities.
     
    https://www.dailysabah.com/turkey/2019/11/08/aging-population-on-the-rise-families-shrinking-in-turkey-survey

    Replies: @Passer by, @Passer by, @dfordoom

    And really, “secularism” in muslim countries is a whole other beast than what is understood in the West. For example in “secular Syria” or Mubarak’s Egypt it wasn’t allowed for muslims to convert to a non-muslim religion. Also when a muslim and non-muslim marry, the children must become muslims, and the non-muslim spouse must convert to Islam. Proselytism by non-muslim groups was not allowed. For more on “secularism” in Middle Eastern countries see State Department reports.

    There is no case of muslim country in the world giving citizenship to non-trivial amount of non-muslim immigrants. They basically make the life of non-muslims miserable and thus the non-muslim minorities are constantly declining in muslim countries.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    @Passer by


    And really, “secularism” in muslim countries is a whole other beast than what is understood in the West. For example in “secular Syria” or Mubarak’s Egypt it wasn’t allowed for muslims to convert to a non-muslim religion. Also when a muslim and non-muslim marry, the children must become muslims, and the non-muslim spouse must convert to Islam. Proselytism by non-muslim groups was not allowed. For more on “secularism” in Middle Eastern countries see State Department reports.
     
    I agree that the divergent conceptions of secularism is often misunderstood, but the polling agency didn't just ask vague questions like "do you approve of a secular state?", but also specific ones like "do you approve of your child marrying someone from a different religion?" and "would you mind if your child wasn't heterosexual?". Hard to misunderstand those.

    And these social changes haven't even occurred in an environment where Turkey is more prosperous, more peaceful or socially united than a decade ago, rather the diametrically opposite.


    As for the rest on Turkey, apparently they decided to counteract these processes by importing arabs.
     
    Moving the goalposts - just like Middle Easterners in Europe, Syrians are a resented presence in Turkey yet they do little to evict them. One might as well say that Spain is not woke because ethnic Spaniards are being replaced by people who aren't.

    The latest is that Turkey just left the Istanbul Convention.
     
    For some reason you can somehow recognise Trump's feeble symbolpolitik, but not Erdogan's?

    Replies: @Passer by

  136. @thotmonger
    Until Fake Woke gets real, Dream On.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2l6JUNFAJ9o

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xF7itA64C6I

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    Name checks out.

  137. @Passer by
    @Hyperborean

    And really, “secularism” in muslim countries is a whole other beast than what is understood in the West. For example in “secular Syria” or Mubarak’s Egypt it wasn’t allowed for muslims to convert to a non-muslim religion. Also when a muslim and non-muslim marry, the children must become muslims, and the non-muslim spouse must convert to Islam. Proselytism by non-muslim groups was not allowed. For more on "secularism" in Middle Eastern countries see State Department reports.

    There is no case of muslim country in the world giving citizenship to non-trivial amount of non-muslim immigrants. They basically make the life of non-muslims miserable and thus the non-muslim minorities are constantly declining in muslim countries.

    Replies: @Hyperborean

    And really, “secularism” in muslim countries is a whole other beast than what is understood in the West. For example in “secular Syria” or Mubarak’s Egypt it wasn’t allowed for muslims to convert to a non-muslim religion. Also when a muslim and non-muslim marry, the children must become muslims, and the non-muslim spouse must convert to Islam. Proselytism by non-muslim groups was not allowed. For more on “secularism” in Middle Eastern countries see State Department reports.

    I agree that the divergent conceptions of secularism is often misunderstood, but the polling agency didn’t just ask vague questions like “do you approve of a secular state?”, but also specific ones like “do you approve of your child marrying someone from a different religion?” and “would you mind if your child wasn’t heterosexual?”. Hard to misunderstand those.

    And these social changes haven’t even occurred in an environment where Turkey is more prosperous, more peaceful or socially united than a decade ago, rather the diametrically opposite.

    As for the rest on Turkey, apparently they decided to counteract these processes by importing arabs.

    Moving the goalposts – just like Middle Easterners in Europe, Syrians are a resented presence in Turkey yet they do little to evict them. One might as well say that Spain is not woke because ethnic Spaniards are being replaced by people who aren’t.

    The latest is that Turkey just left the Istanbul Convention.

    For some reason you can somehow recognise Trump’s feeble symbolpolitik, but not Erdogan’s?

    • Replies: @Passer by
    @Hyperborean


    And these social changes haven’t even occurred in an environment where Turkey is more prosperous
     
    It is definitely more prosperous, see per capita GDP. They were having 7 % per anum growth rates several years ago. It is more urbanised too.

    I noticed that the poll asked youth if they were religious, and 15 % answered yes, then they asked them, do you pray every day, and 24 % answered yes, which means that there are more religious youth than what looks in the first place. Maybe for them "religious" means outright ISIS type, and not just someone who prays alot. Note that among those who pray every day there was only 3 % drop.

    Then they got asked: do you fast, and 58 % said yes. That does not look like european style secularism to me, i'm not aware of a european country where 58 % of youth fast. Almost no one does this in Europe, especially among youth. That is turkish style "secularism" for you.

    Moving the goalposts – just like Middle Easterners in Europe, Syrians are a resented presence in Turkey yet they do little to evict them.
     

    No, Turkey does that because it wants to islamise the population and dilute the kurds in the border areas, way different motivation than Spain. Islamists are more open to other ethnicities as long as they are islamist too, Islam itself is not that nationalist. Problem with PKK and YPG is not only that they are kurdish but that they are secular and socialist too, and Erdogan prefers sunni arab islamists in the border areas to dilute that.

    For some reason you can somehow recognise Trump’s feeble symbolpolitik, but not Erdogan’s?
     
    That is not symbolpolitik, that is used to change laws. Family laws that govern family life and affect everyone. I remember when EE countries accepted the convention and lots of family laws had to be changed with more feminist interpretations.
  138. @Hyperborean
    @Passer by


    And really, “secularism” in muslim countries is a whole other beast than what is understood in the West. For example in “secular Syria” or Mubarak’s Egypt it wasn’t allowed for muslims to convert to a non-muslim religion. Also when a muslim and non-muslim marry, the children must become muslims, and the non-muslim spouse must convert to Islam. Proselytism by non-muslim groups was not allowed. For more on “secularism” in Middle Eastern countries see State Department reports.
     
    I agree that the divergent conceptions of secularism is often misunderstood, but the polling agency didn't just ask vague questions like "do you approve of a secular state?", but also specific ones like "do you approve of your child marrying someone from a different religion?" and "would you mind if your child wasn't heterosexual?". Hard to misunderstand those.

    And these social changes haven't even occurred in an environment where Turkey is more prosperous, more peaceful or socially united than a decade ago, rather the diametrically opposite.


    As for the rest on Turkey, apparently they decided to counteract these processes by importing arabs.
     
    Moving the goalposts - just like Middle Easterners in Europe, Syrians are a resented presence in Turkey yet they do little to evict them. One might as well say that Spain is not woke because ethnic Spaniards are being replaced by people who aren't.

    The latest is that Turkey just left the Istanbul Convention.
     
    For some reason you can somehow recognise Trump's feeble symbolpolitik, but not Erdogan's?

    Replies: @Passer by

    And these social changes haven’t even occurred in an environment where Turkey is more prosperous

    It is definitely more prosperous, see per capita GDP. They were having 7 % per anum growth rates several years ago. It is more urbanised too.

    I noticed that the poll asked youth if they were religious, and 15 % answered yes, then they asked them, do you pray every day, and 24 % answered yes, which means that there are more religious youth than what looks in the first place. Maybe for them “religious” means outright ISIS type, and not just someone who prays alot. Note that among those who pray every day there was only 3 % drop.

    Then they got asked: do you fast, and 58 % said yes. That does not look like european style secularism to me, i’m not aware of a european country where 58 % of youth fast. Almost no one does this in Europe, especially among youth. That is turkish style “secularism” for you.

    Moving the goalposts – just like Middle Easterners in Europe, Syrians are a resented presence in Turkey yet they do little to evict them.

    No, Turkey does that because it wants to islamise the population and dilute the kurds in the border areas, way different motivation than Spain. Islamists are more open to other ethnicities as long as they are islamist too, Islam itself is not that nationalist. Problem with PKK and YPG is not only that they are kurdish but that they are secular and socialist too, and Erdogan prefers sunni arab islamists in the border areas to dilute that.

    For some reason you can somehow recognise Trump’s feeble symbolpolitik, but not Erdogan’s?

    That is not symbolpolitik, that is used to change laws. Family laws that govern family life and affect everyone. I remember when EE countries accepted the convention and lots of family laws had to be changed with more feminist interpretations.

  139. @Nodwink
    These people are subhuman degenerates, they could be easily wiped out if the rest of the world wanted to. The Soviets had no qualms about flattening entire villages, the Americans these days are far more squeamish about going full "sicko mode" these days. The effect of television and the internet is part of this.

    Replies: @Feryl

    The instantaneous transmission of images does seem to have really turned off modern man from protracted and large scale slaughter. Hell, an *officially* permitted knee hold on a large man by the hapless Derek Chauvin was universally condemned as “barbaric”, such is the revulsion toward violence/force that is now the norm.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @Feryl


    ...such is the revulsion toward violence/force that is now the norm.
     
    There wasn't much official, or even spoken, revulsion at the genuine violence that ensued.


    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZLq7xdWkAImhwP.jpg


    I had my first (and last) Guinness float here:


    https://images.otstatic.com/prod/24875446/1/large.jpg

    Permanently Closed - Town Talk Diner and Gastropub


    https://www.twincities.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/IMG_9033.jpeg

    Replies: @Feryl

  140. @Anatoly Karlin
    @Passer by

    Many of the most liberal areas of the US today are populated in areas of Med and East European settlement during late 19C/early 20C.

    As far as I can recall, GSS data doesn't suggest Americans of Germanic or Anglo descent are much more liberal (IIRC it was actually the converse).

    ***

    "Showing up" is ultimately more important than irrelevant trifles like "liberalism" or especially "conservatism" which can mean all manner of different things across mere decades let alone centuries.

    But no evidence that "greater inbreeding" affects that directly. (Apart from more inbred peoples tending to be duller and more remote, so develop/demographically transition later).

    Ladakh, and Jammu and Kashmir in India, now has one its lowest TFRs. https://www.unz.com/akarlin/india-fertility-falls-below-replacement/

    Replies: @Passer by, @Feryl

    In the US, the massive conservative rural areas of the South/Midwest, and many of the conservative white working class suburbs of the South and Midwest are of heavily Protestant NW European white descent. Interestingly though, Brits/Celts/Germans in New England and the Western states (the non-coastal Western states used to be as conservative as the Midwest, but that changed after about 2000) are more liberal.

    It used to be that non-WASP whites of large metro areas of the Northern US, plus Scots-Irish white Southerners, would band together to stop snooty Republicans from selling America out. But that coalition has been fraying since the 1964 Civil Rights act. In fact, since 2012 the Democrats have shed virtually all rural and suburban white working class support outside of New England, and very few old-stock white Southerners trust the Democrats anymore. It seems as if class and race now trumps ideology, as the Dems now openly state their desire to be rid of lower class whites whose interests and values have been diverging further and further away from the Anglo Zionist aristocrat/New Left Frankenstein monster.

  141. @Jake
    @SFG

    Woke is not "the next iteration of Christian universalism." Woke is another in an endless line of replacements for historic Christian identities and movements. Just like Socialism. Just like Anglo-Zionist Empire.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @SFG

    Nah, the new faith is usually pretty hostile to the old faith it’s coming from. Look at Socialism and Christianity, or Protestantism and Catholicism.

  142. @Mr. XYZ
    @Daniel Chieh

    If the cause of male (and female?) homosexuality is in large part prenatal (specifically some kind of immune reaction by pregnant women), then fetuses gestated in artificial wombs are going to be considerably less likely to be homosexual, correct?

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @Bies Podkrakowski

    Or more.
    If such things can be regulated it will probably be regulated according to most progressive social customs. There won’t be any excuses anymore. Only the most regressive parents don’t have gay kids. You are not a regressive, citizen, are you?

    • Replies: @Boomthorkell
    @Bies Podkrakowski

    "The Forever War," captured that reality nicely. Has a surprisingly "based" and upbeat ending, though.

    , @Mr. XYZ
    @Bies Podkrakowski

    At least there will be ATRONOMICALLY fewer unplanned pregnancies, less abortions, and less unwilling parents being forced to pay child support that way!

  143. It’s a sort of damned if you do, damned if you don’t type scenario. The world demands Action from Power; the powerful will always be implored to use that power to change things for the better. If we intervene in other countries to ‘save’ them we mess around with the business of others- if we don’t, we are cold and uncaring and only care about money. If Europe/America intervenes in Iraq we are villanous warmongers, if we ignore the Uighurs we clearly only care about Chinese money etc.

    The truly woke aren’t supremacists btw, they raise third-world culture over first-world culture and claim it is an improvement. The eternal neolib/neocon is more of a supremacist but they of course believe everyone can follow our perfect ways with a little education.

  144. @Passer by
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Its not unlikely for the West considering who is in charge. And it is not the woke whites as you implied. Not because you are naive, but just because you wanted to sound daring and interesting.

    Truth is more important for me than sounding cool and daring just to get people triggered.

    Replies: @Boomthorkell

    Is it truth, or locking onto a particular paradigm and insisting nothing is possible outside it, and thus, not worth the thought or attention to available statistics which show a potential future?

    • Replies: @Passer by
    @Boomthorkell

    Well, let's say that i have a way and a method of knowing what will happen with a particular society, culture wise.

    Up to now it works with near 100 % accuracy.

    It predicted to me the wipe out of Trump, what place will be more nationalistic and what place less, the fact that there was no resistance to the demographic and cultural take over happening in the West, the degeneration of the EU, the schism between Eastern and Western Europe, the russian and turkish divorces with the West, the large right wing activity in Israel, and many other things too.

    And do you know what my method tells me that will happen with the West? It tells me that euro culture will be destroyed and western whites will mostly go away. It is possible that these in EE and in Russia may survive, but that is too not guaranteed.

    Its not that i like that, but this is what it is. And i do not believe that it can be changed. The only thing that has a chance of saving is the non-western world and its peoples and cultures.

    Replies: @Jatt Aryaa, @Boomthorkell

  145. @Bies Podkrakowski
    @Mr. XYZ

    Or more.
    If such things can be regulated it will probably be regulated according to most progressive social customs. There won't be any excuses anymore. Only the most regressive parents don't have gay kids. You are not a regressive, citizen, are you?

    Replies: @Boomthorkell, @Mr. XYZ

    “The Forever War,” captured that reality nicely. Has a surprisingly “based” and upbeat ending, though.

  146. @Extrapolator
    @Coconuts

    No shit black nationalism and Afrocentrism will harm the development of African nations -- consider Rhodesia or South Africa. Already has in plenty of places.

    Otherwise this comment is very good, but you don't elucidate how the two strands work with each other, which is that the former strand -- queer/feminism/LGBT -- always beats the latter strand when they conflict. This is because anybody who gets really into wokism is predominantly concerned about this strand (either because they are gay or because society has convinced them to care about this), while those who actually care about black culture go to black churches or rap or something. Whenever the latter conflicts with the former, everyone just pretends that it doesn't.

    This is why Anatoly is right, incidentally. When wokeness spreads, it'll spread LGTB-ism wherever it goes. Because wokeness is a Western idea and Western ideas have the highest levels of memetic fitness (the idea Trubetskoy was gesturing towards, but didn't have), it will out-compete its competitors and spread, even in the Third World. (Hell, you already have trans politicians in Brazil and such.) Then it will reduce birth-rates. (His prognosis for the First World is optimistic -- I'd put more faith in direct genetic engineering than Amish/Haredi/Arkansas-Quiverfull breeder colonies if things end up working out; given France's experience I don't think selection on breeder traits happens very fast in practice -- but his prognosis for the Third World is spot on.)

    Because Western societies are open -- there is no real censorship, someone here will complain about SJWs but no one will ever come to shut down Unz and it is very easy to find -- the most convincing-sounding ideas with the greatest memetic fitness will always be exported from Western societies to others. The idea that Iran or China or Africa can resist Western fashions in the long-term is bogus (even with high fertility, but then, Iran and China don't actually *have* high fertility). Xi can go ahead and try to build a functioning society if that's what he wants. Wokeness will eventually reach China too, and win there.

    Replies: @silviosilver, @Boomthorkell, @Boomthorkell, @Coconuts, @128, @Passer by, @Jatt Aryaa

    Sikhi appeals more to violent men than rap music, Islam close second।।

    You can control the harem that just leaves you as chief eunuch।।

    Students of history will understand the second part of that insult. 🙂

  147. @Boomthorkell
    @Passer by

    Is it truth, or locking onto a particular paradigm and insisting nothing is possible outside it, and thus, not worth the thought or attention to available statistics which show a potential future?

    Replies: @Passer by

    Well, let’s say that i have a way and a method of knowing what will happen with a particular society, culture wise.

    Up to now it works with near 100 % accuracy.

    It predicted to me the wipe out of Trump, what place will be more nationalistic and what place less, the fact that there was no resistance to the demographic and cultural take over happening in the West, the degeneration of the EU, the schism between Eastern and Western Europe, the russian and turkish divorces with the West, the large right wing activity in Israel, and many other things too.

    And do you know what my method tells me that will happen with the West? It tells me that euro culture will be destroyed and western whites will mostly go away. It is possible that these in EE and in Russia may survive, but that is too not guaranteed.

    Its not that i like that, but this is what it is. And i do not believe that it can be changed. The only thing that has a chance of saving is the non-western world and its peoples and cultures.

    • Replies: @Jatt Aryaa
    @Passer by

    You're more Philosemetic than the Hebrew.

    Replies: @Passer by

    , @Boomthorkell
    @Passer by

    That's fair enough.

    Still, if you've already embraced death and loss as the likely future for one faction, it should be even easier to say, "but, if that doesn't happen, this might." I mean, I'm about as negative as you are on those issues, but the TFR-changes might be interesting to see.

    Plus, if it does workout like that, then happy day. After accepting annihilation as the outcome, this should be a nice and surprising possibility.

    Having said that, it doesn't mean "relaxing" or hoping in vain.

    Also, history is long, and it's hard to even be so despairing when we don't know what will happen in 50 years, let alone a hundred.

  148. @Passer by
    @Boomthorkell

    Well, let's say that i have a way and a method of knowing what will happen with a particular society, culture wise.

    Up to now it works with near 100 % accuracy.

    It predicted to me the wipe out of Trump, what place will be more nationalistic and what place less, the fact that there was no resistance to the demographic and cultural take over happening in the West, the degeneration of the EU, the schism between Eastern and Western Europe, the russian and turkish divorces with the West, the large right wing activity in Israel, and many other things too.

    And do you know what my method tells me that will happen with the West? It tells me that euro culture will be destroyed and western whites will mostly go away. It is possible that these in EE and in Russia may survive, but that is too not guaranteed.

    Its not that i like that, but this is what it is. And i do not believe that it can be changed. The only thing that has a chance of saving is the non-western world and its peoples and cultures.

    Replies: @Jatt Aryaa, @Boomthorkell

    You’re more Philosemetic than the Hebrew.

    • Replies: @Passer by
    @Jatt Aryaa

    No. What happened is that reality ended up being Philosemetic. More than what i would like. And it was painful to me to accept that those things will happen. It was even bad for my health.

    But after i understood what will happen, and that losing my sleep over something i can't change will only harm me, and no one else, i stopped caring about the dying West. I abandoned ship. And started caring about what can be saved.

    Replies: @Jatt Aryaa

  149. @Jatt Aryaa
    @Passer by

    You're more Philosemetic than the Hebrew.

    Replies: @Passer by

    No. What happened is that reality ended up being Philosemetic. More than what i would like. And it was painful to me to accept that those things will happen. It was even bad for my health.

    But after i understood what will happen, and that losing my sleep over something i can’t change will only harm me, and no one else, i stopped caring about the dying West. I abandoned ship. And started caring about what can be saved.

    • Replies: @Jatt Aryaa
    @Passer by

    https://twitter.com/Khalsa_Ak47/status/1287446077717839873?s=20

  150. @Passer by
    @Jatt Aryaa

    No. What happened is that reality ended up being Philosemetic. More than what i would like. And it was painful to me to accept that those things will happen. It was even bad for my health.

    But after i understood what will happen, and that losing my sleep over something i can't change will only harm me, and no one else, i stopped caring about the dying West. I abandoned ship. And started caring about what can be saved.

    Replies: @Jatt Aryaa

  151. @Passer by
    @Boomthorkell

    Well, let's say that i have a way and a method of knowing what will happen with a particular society, culture wise.

    Up to now it works with near 100 % accuracy.

    It predicted to me the wipe out of Trump, what place will be more nationalistic and what place less, the fact that there was no resistance to the demographic and cultural take over happening in the West, the degeneration of the EU, the schism between Eastern and Western Europe, the russian and turkish divorces with the West, the large right wing activity in Israel, and many other things too.

    And do you know what my method tells me that will happen with the West? It tells me that euro culture will be destroyed and western whites will mostly go away. It is possible that these in EE and in Russia may survive, but that is too not guaranteed.

    Its not that i like that, but this is what it is. And i do not believe that it can be changed. The only thing that has a chance of saving is the non-western world and its peoples and cultures.

    Replies: @Jatt Aryaa, @Boomthorkell

    That’s fair enough.

    Still, if you’ve already embraced death and loss as the likely future for one faction, it should be even easier to say, “but, if that doesn’t happen, this might.” I mean, I’m about as negative as you are on those issues, but the TFR-changes might be interesting to see.

    Plus, if it does workout like that, then happy day. After accepting annihilation as the outcome, this should be a nice and surprising possibility.

    Having said that, it doesn’t mean “relaxing” or hoping in vain.

    Also, history is long, and it’s hard to even be so despairing when we don’t know what will happen in 50 years, let alone a hundred.

  152. This is an odd one. It may be bold, or foolish (how often are these entwined, confused). Trollish too, but you would be trolling “our side” as well! Mostly it is shitposty, I guess.

    You had already argued for the global fertility curve transition(s) and it did not involve sjws or leftist indictments. That previous argumentation constitutes 2 of the 3 points made here (downward, cultural inflection, and upward, genetic inflection). You now add sjwism to the equation. And what are the consequences? IIUC, according to the Cortesian argument offered it would change the hypothetical future fertility differential in favor of westerners/whites from “superior” to “much superior”, thus you trollishly spin it in baizuo terms.

    So the gambit consists in trading now cohesion, trust, and security in the social realm; fertility, intelligence, educational quality and success in the human-capital realm; political and (eventually) military power in the realm of statehood; for a (possibly large) increase in the fertility delta in 1 or 2 generations. This predicated on the validity of the hypothesis that culture-driven, regressive, and genetic-driven, progressive, fertility transitions are global phenomena taking place in phase-shifted synchrony and that they will continue unswerving. In particular, as Passer By noted, this postulates universal applicability, and that the progressive genetic pressure is much stronger than the regressive cultural/environmental pressure. All of this in the context of declining white fraction not only worldwide but also in some western countries, and what looks like an incipient west-east economic inflection.

    Call me conservative, but as an intentional strategy it sounds farfetched and riskfraught. So much so that probably only a psychopath or a gambling maniac (or perhaps a visionary rara avis with AK’s bold, trollish, and acute post-malthusian foresight 😉 would consciously pursue it. And while there are indeed some psychopathic personalities who likely do further “the woke” as a consciously selfish strategy, they do not represent the interests of the white/western population (the whites in this class only represent themselves, they are the already very powerful who would just as contently rule over a nation of mestizos, mulattoes, or blacks).

    Ok, so you didn’t say anything about intention. The motive of the phenomenon may be called a confluence of emergent dynamics (“affluence silences the voice of duty”, “decadence is a moral and spiritual disease, resulting from too long a period of wealth and power, producing cynicism, decline of religion, pessimism and frivolity”) and intent, or simply left unspecified, but in any case to paint sjwism as ultimately beneficial for westernites looks a very hard sell. Even if “breeder genes” eventually do come to the rescue, there is no telling how much, by then, will be left to salvage.

    with the effects not even uniformly negative

    So what are examples of “not uniformly negative” effects of SJWism? Uh… Rising revenue from “grievance studies” tuition? I can see some positive effects of traditional Left ideology (the one that still cared about workers and class). I can see none in this disease.

    allowing them scope to come to a symbiosis with the pathogen.

    The ones who manage to establish a mutually beneficial relationship with the cancer have become carcinogenic themselves. Furthermore, it is not quite a symbiosis, they are in competition for virulence.

    [MORE]

    A few more comments on the “not entirely trollish leftist spin”, which I found irksome:

    I really thought you were joking by repeating that “Russians are chromatic” meme. Is this your strategy to countersjw the sjws? Because I don’t think it will work, not even for a “rhetorically-chromatic” Russia. Rather, I think you would just be clicking the ratchet once again: you decide to give the leftists a taste of their medicine, as you are about to hurl their epithets (“Album Optimalist”, “Genicist”) back at them, you realise that they seem to fly only in one direction, thus you find yourself positioned to the left of them. Beware.

    You imply that it’s a somewhat trollish interpretation, but countersjwism is still swjism. For someone who considers it a pathogen, the only case in which I can see a rational case for promoting it would be if you feel now so secure of the East being safely immunised against the Western virus that you see no downsides to coughing in their general direction. Several times you have written with concern about the (modest) inroads of the western infection into Russia, so I don’t think that’s the case. But if it were, if that sense of security were warranted, then such behaviour (deliberate but dishonest promotion of sjwism meant to decrease fitness of the enemy) would be, well, cunning, I guess (or full of chutzpah some might say). If it weren’t, then you would be acting “bold” indeed. Beware.

    Also, many times we have drawn parallels between contemporary liberasts and the past bolsheviks and maoists. At the same time you and many others have made the reasonable case that the bolsheviks and soviets hurt the russian majority specially, and the russian state itself has made some effort to distance itself from that past, which is good. Contorted argumentation reminiscent of the one you propose here would have people hypothesising that “ackshually, bolshevism was russian optimalism”. Beware.

    • Agree: Coconuts
  153. @songbird
    @Bashibuzuk

    Depends on the context: maybe, this is a lot more realistic than generation ships, and it is what it would take to spread human life to the planets of other suns.

    Replies: @FerW

    Bur the context in this article is clearly not related to galactic conquest. Just boring old families on our boring blue earth. It is dystopian and depressing to think that artificial breeding would be what’s needed to raise fertility to healthy levels again, which, I guess, was Blinky Bill’s tacit implication.

  154. @Daniel Chieh
    @Blinky Bill

    Perfect control of environment allows minimalization of any harmful alleles from being expressed in the womb, and avoidance of concerns like fetal alcohol syndrome. Imagine being able to move beyond the simple cottage industry of domestic production of humanity and replace it with industrialization.

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/paper-review-artificial-wombs/

    The promise of a new future is upon us.

    Replies: @Mr. XYZ, @FerW, @Reg Cæsar

    Seeing this upbeat reaction to in-vitro human breeding I’m reminded of your joking admission of being “a little traumatized by life, which may have led to some unusual opinions and interests”. Non-jokingly, I’m starting to feel a little pity! :‑)

  155. @Feryl
    @Nodwink

    The instantaneous transmission of images does seem to have really turned off modern man from protracted and large scale slaughter. Hell, an *officially* permitted knee hold on a large man by the hapless Derek Chauvin was universally condemned as "barbaric", such is the revulsion toward violence/force that is now the norm.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    …such is the revulsion toward violence/force that is now the norm.

    There wasn’t much official, or even spoken, revulsion at the genuine violence that ensued.

    I had my first (and last) Guinness float here:

    Permanently Closed – Town Talk Diner and Gastropub

    • Replies: @Feryl
    @Reg Cæsar

    The MPLS riots were remarkably non-murderous compared to the LA riots or the worst of the Vietnam era riots. Granted, burnt out neighborhoods will become more violent in the long run, however America is still safer now than it was from 1968-1996*. Steven Pinker has said that Boomers and Gen Xers were a strange exception to the general rule of the world getting more and more safe for quite some time now. Millennials and Gen Z are just not going to recreate the harrowing youth culture of the late 60-s thru mid-1990's.

    *I'm not talking about the worst modern ghettos of Chicago, but rather, the typical American neighborhood these days. In my lower class suburb, nobody gets beaten up, the police are rarely called about anything, houses are seldom broken into, etc. It's almost comical how shy and wimpy teenagers are these days compared to the sullen and glowering vibe of teenagers in the 70's-mid 90's. And how soon we forget that domestic violence was at ginormous levels in the early 90's (in hindsight, 1980 and 1991 look like moral lowpoints for America,as measured by most crime and violence stats, and the general social survey says that many Americans were afraid to walk the streets at night from the 1970's-1996, with only a small improvement from 1984-1989).

    Replies: @sudden death, @Reg Cæsar, @dfordoom

  156. @Daniel Chieh
    @Blinky Bill

    Perfect control of environment allows minimalization of any harmful alleles from being expressed in the womb, and avoidance of concerns like fetal alcohol syndrome. Imagine being able to move beyond the simple cottage industry of domestic production of humanity and replace it with industrialization.

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/paper-review-artificial-wombs/

    The promise of a new future is upon us.

    Replies: @Mr. XYZ, @FerW, @Reg Cæsar

    Imagine being able to move beyond the simple cottage industry of domestic production of humanity and replace it with industrialization.

    We’d rather not.

  157. @Passer by
    @dfordoom

    On the contrary, it is the richest people who have the lowest birth rate (within societies) so the problem is not lack of capability.

    Replies: @dfordoom

    On the contrary, it is the richest people who have the lowest birth rate (within societies) so the problem is not lack of capability.

    Is it really true that the very richest people have the lowest birth rates? Doesn’t Jeff Bezos have four kids? Mark Zuckerberg has a couple of kids. Elon Musk has six kids. My impression is that the super-rich are reproducing quite successfully. Maybe it’s because helicopter parenting is easy if you have a staff to do it for you.

    • Replies: @Passer by
    @dfordoom

    Well, the world is not so simple. Call it decadence or whatever.


    There is generally an inverse correlation between income and the total fertility rate within and between nations.
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_and_fertility

    Replies: @dfordoom

    , @Passer by
    @dfordoom

    Well, the world is not so simple. Call it decadence or whatever.


    There is generally an inverse correlation between income and the total fertility rate within and between nations.
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_and_fertility
  158. @Hyperborean
    @Passer by


    And its not in all cases, see Turkey or Russia or India or China where elites try to push in opposite direction too.
     
    A religious and jingoistic government with control of the media, civil service and the education system yet they have been unable to turn around the country. Liberalism isn't inevitable, but neither is there some intrinsic defense against it.

    In the survey released on Monday, the Konda polling company compared the opinions of Turkish citizens between the ages of 15 to 29 from 2008 to data taken last year [article is from 2019]. Over 1,700 people were interviewed.

    According to the survey, the number of Turkish youth who consider themselves to be religious has dropped from by 7 percent to 15 percent overall. Young people who describe themselves as “modern” also increased to 43 percent from 34 percent in 2008.

    Volkan Ertit, a scholar at Aksaray University who researches secularization in Turkey, told Middle East Eye that the survey only confirms other recent academic work that have shown similar trends, including studies on the increase in sex before marriage.

    “In all honesty, this is not about Erdogan,” said Ertit. “If you had Turkish opposition leader Kemal Kilicdaroglu or late Islamic-oriented leader Necmettin Erbakan as the president, the results would have been the same.

    “You cannot control the trajectory of society. You get secularization if you have these three components: urbanisation, capitalism and science. We have them.”

    The poll found significant shifts in how young people practice their religion with the number of those who fast dropping 16 percent to 58 percent total. There was also a three percent fall among those who pray daily to 24 percent.

    Ertit said it’s now clear that opening Imam-Hatip schools has not helped the government deliver the pious generation Erdogan spoke about.

    “Different studies show students at those schools increasingly having the same lifestyle [as] non-religious school students. It changes everything if you have smartphones, and the internet. Talk to a Imam-Hatip student. They would tell you that they have flirting in their school,” he said.

    Erdogan last year was taped as he reprimanded then-minister of education, Ismet Yilmaz, about a survey conducted by the ministry’s local branch in the city of Konya, which showed that many Imam-Hatip students believed in God but had a disdain for established religion.

    “It can’t be!” Erdogan told the minister in comments captured by an open mic.

    The poll also indicates that young people are becoming more tolerant. The respondents who say they can have a son-in-law or daughter-in-law with different religious beliefs increased by 17 percent to 64 percent. Interviewees who said they would be okay if their children had different sexual orientations than them rose 9 percent to 21 percent.

     

    https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/turkish-youth-increasingly-secular-and-modern-under-erdogan-poll-finds

    Turkey’s revised average rate of births shows that as of 2019 the fertility rate dropped sharply from 2.069 babies per woman to 1.88, Guven Sak, a columnist at Hurriyet Daily News has noted.

    He wrote: “Sixty years ago, Turkey’s fertility rate was about three times higher than that of Sweden. Yes, in 1960, the fertility rate was 2.17 in Sweden and 6.41 in Turkey. This meant that Turkey’s fertility rate was above the world average of five children per woman. At that time, only about 30 percent of Turks were living in urban areas.

    “As of last year, the Turkish fertility rate is very close to the Swedish rate of 1.76 and is lower than the world average today. The fertility rate in the EU-27 was 1.55 in 2018, which means that Turkey is not too far off from the bloc as a whole either.”

    In the last 60 years, observed Sak, Turkey has turned into an industrial country and its urbanisation rate is now higher than 75%. “Turkey’s economic transformation has meant that people chose to have fewer children, but wanted more opportunity for the ones they did have,” he added.

    In 2002, when the ruling party AKP first came to power, Turkey’s fertility rate was already 2.4 and below the world average, said Sak. “That downward trend continued seamlessly in the last 18 years, despite frequent calls by President Recep Tayyip Erdogan to have at least three kids (a mantra he repeats at every wedding he presides over). Turkey’s population is still changing with internal and recently international migration. When families move from Sanlıurfa, a province where the fertility rate is still 3.89, to Istanbul, their average birth rates decline drastically,” he also noted.

    Sak concluded: “The Turkish demographic convergence with Europe continues despite political calls for larger families. When it comes to what’s happening on the ground, economic reality continues to cut across the political soundtrack. Conservatives who want larger families are in a tough spot. They could either manage the economy well, which would mean that people naturally don’t want as many children, or they could manage it badly, and people won’t be able to afford as many children. Either way, Turkey converges with Europe on some of the most basic social indicators.”

     

    https://www.intellinews.com/turkey-sees-sharp-drop-in-fertility-rate-to-near-swedish-level-190060/

    Only the Kurds and Syrians are above replacement level:

    https://i.redd.it/u2hh1my78ty01.jpg

    https://i.redd.it/nwf9f24g4xe11.jpg

    The survey also delved into health figures for women in the Syrian refugee population. The biggest Syrian refugee population in the region lives in Turkey, with over 3.5 million people. The fertility rate among Syrian women was 5.3 children per woman on average, and the average ideal number of children among married Syrian women between the ages of 15 and 49 was 4.1. Contraception use among married Syrian women was 43%. The survey says 21% of Syrian refugee women were in need of family planning while 21% of Syrian refugee children were unregistered with authorities.
     
    https://www.dailysabah.com/turkey/2019/11/08/aging-population-on-the-rise-families-shrinking-in-turkey-survey

    Replies: @Passer by, @Passer by, @dfordoom

    “Turkey’s economic transformation has meant that people chose to have fewer children, but wanted more opportunity for the ones they did have,” he added.

    Capitalism, technology, urbanisation and rising prosperity means you can provide excellent opportunities for your offspring if you only have one offspring, and you can do so whilst still having lots of very pleasant options for yourself (a nice house in a nice neighbourhood, a new car, nice holidays).

    Capitalism, technology, urbanisation and rising prosperity all lead to greater choices and increasingly (from an individual point of view) the rational choice for most couples is one child. And from a purely individual standpoint it’s a very sensible choice.

    It might be bad for society but in a society that has capitalism, technology, urbanisation and rising prosperity no-one cares about the interests of society. Such societies inevitably become more focused on the individual.

    So how do you get capitalism, technology, urbanisation and rising prosperity without demographic collapse? No amount of wishful thinking about breeder genes is going to change anything.

    You need a way of creating a successful prosperous society without that focus on individualism. I have no idea how that can be achieved. Religion isn’t going to help.

    • Replies: @EldnahYm
    @dfordoom

    This account would be more convincing 20 years ago. Today, nearly a quarter of men have not had sex at all over the last year. Are you going to argue this state of affairs is because of rational choice and individualism? Many of the trends now are bad for society and the individual.

    Modern society has seriously fucked up incentives. A good start to changing incentives would be to eliminate practices that delay young people's transition into adulthood. Sitting around all day playing video games or partying all the time is bad, but on this account so is having to get a degree before getting a decent job(actually it's worse because it's dysgenic).

    Replies: @dfordoom

  159. @dfordoom
    @Hyperborean


    “Turkey’s economic transformation has meant that people chose to have fewer children, but wanted more opportunity for the ones they did have,” he added.
     
    Capitalism, technology, urbanisation and rising prosperity means you can provide excellent opportunities for your offspring if you only have one offspring, and you can do so whilst still having lots of very pleasant options for yourself (a nice house in a nice neighbourhood, a new car, nice holidays).

    Capitalism, technology, urbanisation and rising prosperity all lead to greater choices and increasingly (from an individual point of view) the rational choice for most couples is one child. And from a purely individual standpoint it's a very sensible choice.

    It might be bad for society but in a society that has capitalism, technology, urbanisation and rising prosperity no-one cares about the interests of society. Such societies inevitably become more focused on the individual.

    So how do you get capitalism, technology, urbanisation and rising prosperity without demographic collapse? No amount of wishful thinking about breeder genes is going to change anything.

    You need a way of creating a successful prosperous society without that focus on individualism. I have no idea how that can be achieved. Religion isn't going to help.

    Replies: @EldnahYm

    This account would be more convincing 20 years ago. Today, nearly a quarter of men have not had sex at all over the last year. Are you going to argue this state of affairs is because of rational choice and individualism? Many of the trends now are bad for society and the individual.

    Modern society has seriously fucked up incentives. A good start to changing incentives would be to eliminate practices that delay young people’s transition into adulthood. Sitting around all day playing video games or partying all the time is bad, but on this account so is having to get a degree before getting a decent job(actually it’s worse because it’s dysgenic).

    • Replies: @dfordoom
    @EldnahYm


    This account would be more convincing 20 years ago. Today, nearly a quarter of men have not had sex at all over the last year. Are you going to argue this state of affairs is because of rational choice and individualism?
     
    As I've said before I'm not convinced that we have any reliable data at all about sexual behaviour and I'm definitely not convinced that we have any reliable data about changes in sexual behaviour over time.

    Many of the trends now are bad for society and the individual.
     
    Yes, but people decided that they wanted their lives to revolve around smartphones, the internet and gaming. "Society" did not make those bad choices - individuals did. When mobile phones were invented I thought they were a seriously bad idea and I was right but people told me how wonderful life would become thanks to mobile phones. When social media came along I thought it was a seriously bad idea and I was right but people told me how wonderful life would become thanks to social media.

    Also, people don't just make rational decisions. They also make irrational decisions.

    Modern society has seriously fucked up incentives. A good start to changing incentives would be to eliminate practices that delay young people’s transition into adulthood. Sitting around all day playing video games or partying all the time is bad
     
    "Society" does not force people to sit around all day playing video games. People choose to do so.

    but on this account so is having to get a degree before getting a decent job
     
    Yes, I agree with that.

    There's a limit to what you can do to prevent individuals from screwing up their lives. Or to prevent them from making choices that you and I think are bad choices.
  160. @dfordoom
    @Passer by


    On the contrary, it is the richest people who have the lowest birth rate (within societies) so the problem is not lack of capability.
     
    Is it really true that the very richest people have the lowest birth rates? Doesn't Jeff Bezos have four kids? Mark Zuckerberg has a couple of kids. Elon Musk has six kids. My impression is that the super-rich are reproducing quite successfully. Maybe it's because helicopter parenting is easy if you have a staff to do it for you.

    Replies: @Passer by, @Passer by

    Well, the world is not so simple. Call it decadence or whatever.

    There is generally an inverse correlation between income and the total fertility rate within and between nations.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_and_fertility

    • Replies: @dfordoom
    @Passer by



    There is generally an inverse correlation between income and the total fertility rate within and between nations.
     

     
    I'm not convinced it applies to the super-rich. I'm not convinced that it applies to the real elites, the 1% if you like.

    It's possible that the elites are not concerned about falling birth rates because falling birth rates don't affect them.
  161. @dfordoom
    @Passer by


    On the contrary, it is the richest people who have the lowest birth rate (within societies) so the problem is not lack of capability.
     
    Is it really true that the very richest people have the lowest birth rates? Doesn't Jeff Bezos have four kids? Mark Zuckerberg has a couple of kids. Elon Musk has six kids. My impression is that the super-rich are reproducing quite successfully. Maybe it's because helicopter parenting is easy if you have a staff to do it for you.

    Replies: @Passer by, @Passer by

    Well, the world is not so simple. Call it decadence or whatever.

    There is generally an inverse correlation between income and the total fertility rate within and between nations.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_and_fertility

  162. @Reg Cæsar
    @Feryl


    ...such is the revulsion toward violence/force that is now the norm.
     
    There wasn't much official, or even spoken, revulsion at the genuine violence that ensued.


    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZLq7xdWkAImhwP.jpg


    I had my first (and last) Guinness float here:


    https://images.otstatic.com/prod/24875446/1/large.jpg

    Permanently Closed - Town Talk Diner and Gastropub


    https://www.twincities.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/IMG_9033.jpeg

    Replies: @Feryl

    The MPLS riots were remarkably non-murderous compared to the LA riots or the worst of the Vietnam era riots. Granted, burnt out neighborhoods will become more violent in the long run, however America is still safer now than it was from 1968-1996*. Steven Pinker has said that Boomers and Gen Xers were a strange exception to the general rule of the world getting more and more safe for quite some time now. Millennials and Gen Z are just not going to recreate the harrowing youth culture of the late 60-s thru mid-1990’s.

    *I’m not talking about the worst modern ghettos of Chicago, but rather, the typical American neighborhood these days. In my lower class suburb, nobody gets beaten up, the police are rarely called about anything, houses are seldom broken into, etc. It’s almost comical how shy and wimpy teenagers are these days compared to the sullen and glowering vibe of teenagers in the 70’s-mid 90’s. And how soon we forget that domestic violence was at ginormous levels in the early 90’s (in hindsight, 1980 and 1991 look like moral lowpoints for America,as measured by most crime and violence stats, and the general social survey says that many Americans were afraid to walk the streets at night from the 1970’s-1996, with only a small improvement from 1984-1989).

    • Replies: @sudden death
    @Feryl


    It’s almost comical how shy and wimpy teenagers are these days compared to the sullen and glowering vibe of teenagers in the 70’s-mid 90’s.
     
    Results of enabled abortion&ban of lead in fuel?

    Replies: @Feryl

    , @Reg Cæsar
    @Feryl


    The MPLS riots were remarkably non-murderous compared to the LA riots...
     
    They were better orchestrated. And mostly white.

    ...or the worst of the Vietnam era riots.
     
    What is a "Vietnam-era riot"? Everything calmed down after 1968. In 1985 I watched news reports of the riots in Brixton while visiting friends in Brighton, a safe 60 miles distant. By then, riots had become quite passé back home. I told my English friends their country was behind the times!
    , @dfordoom
    @Feryl


    The MPLS riots were remarkably non-murderous compared to the LA riots or the worst of the Vietnam era riots. Granted, burnt out neighborhoods will become more violent in the long run, however America is still safer now than it was from 1968-1996*.
     
    Yep. And that's a major problem for the far right which relies heavily on arguments that things are worse now than ever before. The far right also relies heavily on arguments that immigration has made life unliveable.

    It’s almost comical how shy and wimpy teenagers are these days compared to the sullen and glowering vibe of teenagers in the 70’s-mid 90’s.
     
    I've noticed that too. And teenagers today are so polite!

    Also, all the Zoomers that I encounter are in reasonably stable romantic relationships.

    This is another problem for the far right and its reliance on "everything is falling apart" arguments.

    Replies: @Feryl

  163. @Feryl
    @Reg Cæsar

    The MPLS riots were remarkably non-murderous compared to the LA riots or the worst of the Vietnam era riots. Granted, burnt out neighborhoods will become more violent in the long run, however America is still safer now than it was from 1968-1996*. Steven Pinker has said that Boomers and Gen Xers were a strange exception to the general rule of the world getting more and more safe for quite some time now. Millennials and Gen Z are just not going to recreate the harrowing youth culture of the late 60-s thru mid-1990's.

    *I'm not talking about the worst modern ghettos of Chicago, but rather, the typical American neighborhood these days. In my lower class suburb, nobody gets beaten up, the police are rarely called about anything, houses are seldom broken into, etc. It's almost comical how shy and wimpy teenagers are these days compared to the sullen and glowering vibe of teenagers in the 70's-mid 90's. And how soon we forget that domestic violence was at ginormous levels in the early 90's (in hindsight, 1980 and 1991 look like moral lowpoints for America,as measured by most crime and violence stats, and the general social survey says that many Americans were afraid to walk the streets at night from the 1970's-1996, with only a small improvement from 1984-1989).

    Replies: @sudden death, @Reg Cæsar, @dfordoom

    It’s almost comical how shy and wimpy teenagers are these days compared to the sullen and glowering vibe of teenagers in the 70’s-mid 90’s.

    Results of enabled abortion&ban of lead in fuel?

    • Replies: @Feryl
    @sudden death

    It was the horrible youth culture of the 1970's that warped young minds. Leaded gas is irrelevant (the Silent and Boomer generations pretty much abdicated any semblance of moral leadership in this decade). The cohort born from the early 1950's-late 1960's has been a trainwreck, comprising the majority of alcoholics, criminals, homeless, etc. The more this cohort ages, the safer things have gotten. 1940's born Boomers and later Gen X-ers mostly matured past whatever issues they may have had in their youth, while Millennials were responsible for massive declines in youth anti-social behavior in the late 90's and 2000's (youth crime rates plummeting in 1997 coincide with early 80's births entering the age bracket at which criminal offending becomes more common).

    WRT abortion, the spergs don't notice that the cratering birth rates of the 70's coincides with a toxic general culture that hurt teenagers and young adults the hardest. Of course the generation who in the 70's came to believe that it was cool to party hard and hate stupid and hypocritical authority figures (didja know that killing of cops peaked in the 70's) would end up doing pretty bad. While later generations rose above that nihilism. How on Earth people ignore powerful cultural tends is beyond me. Go look up Sailer's past writings about the ultra decadant rock and disco culture of the 70's, and how that decade was remarkably bereft of wholesome and straightforward youth icons.

  164. @sudden death
    @Feryl


    It’s almost comical how shy and wimpy teenagers are these days compared to the sullen and glowering vibe of teenagers in the 70’s-mid 90’s.
     
    Results of enabled abortion&ban of lead in fuel?

    Replies: @Feryl

    It was the horrible youth culture of the 1970’s that warped young minds. Leaded gas is irrelevant (the Silent and Boomer generations pretty much abdicated any semblance of moral leadership in this decade). The cohort born from the early 1950’s-late 1960’s has been a trainwreck, comprising the majority of alcoholics, criminals, homeless, etc. The more this cohort ages, the safer things have gotten. 1940’s born Boomers and later Gen X-ers mostly matured past whatever issues they may have had in their youth, while Millennials were responsible for massive declines in youth anti-social behavior in the late 90’s and 2000’s (youth crime rates plummeting in 1997 coincide with early 80’s births entering the age bracket at which criminal offending becomes more common).

    WRT abortion, the spergs don’t notice that the cratering birth rates of the 70’s coincides with a toxic general culture that hurt teenagers and young adults the hardest. Of course the generation who in the 70’s came to believe that it was cool to party hard and hate stupid and hypocritical authority figures (didja know that killing of cops peaked in the 70’s) would end up doing pretty bad. While later generations rose above that nihilism. How on Earth people ignore powerful cultural tends is beyond me. Go look up Sailer’s past writings about the ultra decadant rock and disco culture of the 70’s, and how that decade was remarkably bereft of wholesome and straightforward youth icons.

  165. @Feryl
    @Reg Cæsar

    The MPLS riots were remarkably non-murderous compared to the LA riots or the worst of the Vietnam era riots. Granted, burnt out neighborhoods will become more violent in the long run, however America is still safer now than it was from 1968-1996*. Steven Pinker has said that Boomers and Gen Xers were a strange exception to the general rule of the world getting more and more safe for quite some time now. Millennials and Gen Z are just not going to recreate the harrowing youth culture of the late 60-s thru mid-1990's.

    *I'm not talking about the worst modern ghettos of Chicago, but rather, the typical American neighborhood these days. In my lower class suburb, nobody gets beaten up, the police are rarely called about anything, houses are seldom broken into, etc. It's almost comical how shy and wimpy teenagers are these days compared to the sullen and glowering vibe of teenagers in the 70's-mid 90's. And how soon we forget that domestic violence was at ginormous levels in the early 90's (in hindsight, 1980 and 1991 look like moral lowpoints for America,as measured by most crime and violence stats, and the general social survey says that many Americans were afraid to walk the streets at night from the 1970's-1996, with only a small improvement from 1984-1989).

    Replies: @sudden death, @Reg Cæsar, @dfordoom

    The MPLS riots were remarkably non-murderous compared to the LA riots…

    They were better orchestrated. And mostly white.

    …or the worst of the Vietnam era riots.

    What is a “Vietnam-era riot”? Everything calmed down after 1968. In 1985 I watched news reports of the riots in Brixton while visiting friends in Brighton, a safe 60 miles distant. By then, riots had become quite passé back home. I told my English friends their country was behind the times!

  166. @EldnahYm
    @dfordoom

    This account would be more convincing 20 years ago. Today, nearly a quarter of men have not had sex at all over the last year. Are you going to argue this state of affairs is because of rational choice and individualism? Many of the trends now are bad for society and the individual.

    Modern society has seriously fucked up incentives. A good start to changing incentives would be to eliminate practices that delay young people's transition into adulthood. Sitting around all day playing video games or partying all the time is bad, but on this account so is having to get a degree before getting a decent job(actually it's worse because it's dysgenic).

    Replies: @dfordoom

    This account would be more convincing 20 years ago. Today, nearly a quarter of men have not had sex at all over the last year. Are you going to argue this state of affairs is because of rational choice and individualism?

    As I’ve said before I’m not convinced that we have any reliable data at all about sexual behaviour and I’m definitely not convinced that we have any reliable data about changes in sexual behaviour over time.

    Many of the trends now are bad for society and the individual.

    Yes, but people decided that they wanted their lives to revolve around smartphones, the internet and gaming. “Society” did not make those bad choices – individuals did. When mobile phones were invented I thought they were a seriously bad idea and I was right but people told me how wonderful life would become thanks to mobile phones. When social media came along I thought it was a seriously bad idea and I was right but people told me how wonderful life would become thanks to social media.

    Also, people don’t just make rational decisions. They also make irrational decisions.

    Modern society has seriously fucked up incentives. A good start to changing incentives would be to eliminate practices that delay young people’s transition into adulthood. Sitting around all day playing video games or partying all the time is bad

    “Society” does not force people to sit around all day playing video games. People choose to do so.

    but on this account so is having to get a degree before getting a decent job

    Yes, I agree with that.

    There’s a limit to what you can do to prevent individuals from screwing up their lives. Or to prevent them from making choices that you and I think are bad choices.

  167. @Passer by
    @dfordoom

    Well, the world is not so simple. Call it decadence or whatever.


    There is generally an inverse correlation between income and the total fertility rate within and between nations.
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_and_fertility

    Replies: @dfordoom

    There is generally an inverse correlation between income and the total fertility rate within and between nations.

    I’m not convinced it applies to the super-rich. I’m not convinced that it applies to the real elites, the 1% if you like.

    It’s possible that the elites are not concerned about falling birth rates because falling birth rates don’t affect them.

  168. @Feryl
    @Reg Cæsar

    The MPLS riots were remarkably non-murderous compared to the LA riots or the worst of the Vietnam era riots. Granted, burnt out neighborhoods will become more violent in the long run, however America is still safer now than it was from 1968-1996*. Steven Pinker has said that Boomers and Gen Xers were a strange exception to the general rule of the world getting more and more safe for quite some time now. Millennials and Gen Z are just not going to recreate the harrowing youth culture of the late 60-s thru mid-1990's.

    *I'm not talking about the worst modern ghettos of Chicago, but rather, the typical American neighborhood these days. In my lower class suburb, nobody gets beaten up, the police are rarely called about anything, houses are seldom broken into, etc. It's almost comical how shy and wimpy teenagers are these days compared to the sullen and glowering vibe of teenagers in the 70's-mid 90's. And how soon we forget that domestic violence was at ginormous levels in the early 90's (in hindsight, 1980 and 1991 look like moral lowpoints for America,as measured by most crime and violence stats, and the general social survey says that many Americans were afraid to walk the streets at night from the 1970's-1996, with only a small improvement from 1984-1989).

    Replies: @sudden death, @Reg Cæsar, @dfordoom

    The MPLS riots were remarkably non-murderous compared to the LA riots or the worst of the Vietnam era riots. Granted, burnt out neighborhoods will become more violent in the long run, however America is still safer now than it was from 1968-1996*.

    Yep. And that’s a major problem for the far right which relies heavily on arguments that things are worse now than ever before. The far right also relies heavily on arguments that immigration has made life unliveable.

    It’s almost comical how shy and wimpy teenagers are these days compared to the sullen and glowering vibe of teenagers in the 70’s-mid 90’s.

    I’ve noticed that too. And teenagers today are so polite!

    Also, all the Zoomers that I encounter are in reasonably stable romantic relationships.

    This is another problem for the far right and its reliance on “everything is falling apart” arguments.

    • Replies: @Feryl
    @dfordoom

    I believe it was Henry Rollins who said that when he visited some of his NYC friends in the 80's, he (in broad daylight, and a muscular twentysomething white guy) needed his friends to secure their neighborhoods (e.g., tell the local thugs to back off) before he dared enter them. That's how dangerous NYC was at the time.

    Hell, to invoke MPLS/St Paul again, there was a serial killer at work there in the 80's (the weepy voiced killer) and neighboring Wisconsin had Jeffrey Dahmer in the late 80's/early 90's. Every region of America, except perhaps Appalachia and the lightly populated upper portion of the inland Western states, had at least one, and often several, serial killers at work in the 70's-mid 90's, with the West Coast being particularly gruesome.

    The problem with Gen Z is that they focus all their angst inward, thus the really high suicide rates. They seem to be like Boomer opposites.

    Boomers: extroverted, outwardly focused, narcissistic.

    Gen Z: introverted, inwardly focused, self-loathing.

    Gen X and Millennials are between the two extremes.

  169. @dfordoom
    @Feryl


    The MPLS riots were remarkably non-murderous compared to the LA riots or the worst of the Vietnam era riots. Granted, burnt out neighborhoods will become more violent in the long run, however America is still safer now than it was from 1968-1996*.
     
    Yep. And that's a major problem for the far right which relies heavily on arguments that things are worse now than ever before. The far right also relies heavily on arguments that immigration has made life unliveable.

    It’s almost comical how shy and wimpy teenagers are these days compared to the sullen and glowering vibe of teenagers in the 70’s-mid 90’s.
     
    I've noticed that too. And teenagers today are so polite!

    Also, all the Zoomers that I encounter are in reasonably stable romantic relationships.

    This is another problem for the far right and its reliance on "everything is falling apart" arguments.

    Replies: @Feryl

    I believe it was Henry Rollins who said that when he visited some of his NYC friends in the 80’s, he (in broad daylight, and a muscular twentysomething white guy) needed his friends to secure their neighborhoods (e.g., tell the local thugs to back off) before he dared enter them. That’s how dangerous NYC was at the time.

    Hell, to invoke MPLS/St Paul again, there was a serial killer at work there in the 80’s (the weepy voiced killer) and neighboring Wisconsin had Jeffrey Dahmer in the late 80’s/early 90’s. Every region of America, except perhaps Appalachia and the lightly populated upper portion of the inland Western states, had at least one, and often several, serial killers at work in the 70’s-mid 90’s, with the West Coast being particularly gruesome.

    The problem with Gen Z is that they focus all their angst inward, thus the really high suicide rates. They seem to be like Boomer opposites.

    Boomers: extroverted, outwardly focused, narcissistic.

    Gen Z: introverted, inwardly focused, self-loathing.

    Gen X and Millennials are between the two extremes.

  170. @Bies Podkrakowski
    @Mr. XYZ

    Or more.
    If such things can be regulated it will probably be regulated according to most progressive social customs. There won't be any excuses anymore. Only the most regressive parents don't have gay kids. You are not a regressive, citizen, are you?

    Replies: @Boomthorkell, @Mr. XYZ

    At least there will be ATRONOMICALLY fewer unplanned pregnancies, less abortions, and less unwilling parents being forced to pay child support that way!

  171. @Bashibuzuk
    @Jake

    https://www.nuntiare.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/CristoRevolucionario.jpg

    Sorry to disappoint...

    Replies: @Carlo, @songbird, @RSDB

    Sure, but you can do the same thing with the Buddha.

    (Opening lyrics: “Buddha, Jesus, Gandhi– why were they born? For the benefit of us, the poor.”)

    • Agree: AltanBakshi
  172. @Daniel Chieh
    @songbird

    His crackdowns are quite serious from what I've heard; reversing a situations where prostitutes clamored outside of hotels to being basically absent. Its part of the "fear atmosphere" that some people have accused of, but he's also wiped out a lot of the assumed acceptable level of corruption before, drug use, etc.

    The Party apparatus is quite serious now, but its also crushing for those accustomed to a more "free" hand, including individuals in the government who previously once overlooked such things. Its one reason for monetary flight, as such individuals(and their families) try to escape and find a bolt hole for themselves and their money before the soft touch of Xi's inquisitors reach them.

    Replies: @Dreadilk, @antibeast

    Xi’s crackdown on graft and corruption entailed closing down notorious sex industries such as the one in Dongguan. Xi’s motive was not driven by puritanical impulses but by political interests as he wanted to consolidate his power by purging the Party, Army and State of Deng’s proteges. To show that he meant business, Xi cracked down hard on all manner of vices that ensnared corrupt officials, such as mistresses, gambling, prostitution, etc., which basically wiped out his slate clean for him to appoint his proteges. Catching an official in the act with their mistresses so to speak is much easier to prosecute than trying to search for his ill-gotten wealth which would have been laundered away in some offshore property or bank account. Aside from gaining public favor, Xi’s move allowed him to paint a new image of a clean China which has spread throughout the world.

    The West – as represented by its media and politicians — has been critical of Xi’s moves precisely because Xi purged their clients — the Dengist Kleptocracy — from the corridors of power in China. All their silly attempts at gunboat diplomacy won’t deter China because they have to deal with Xi’s nationalists who are now in power in China.

Comments are closed.

Subscribe to All Anatoly Karlin Comments via RSS