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OK’ing the Russian Occupation Government from the 52nd floor of Federation Tower.

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@ak

More notable posts since the last Open Thread in case you missed any of them.

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Featured

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Russia

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World

  • PressTV: China updates deal to invest $400 billion in Iran (based on this)
    • Note that this happens just a few months after China appeased US neocons by forbidding Kunlun Bank from handling Iran payments, severely crimping Iran’s oil exports & foreign currency earnings.
    • And according to this: ““This will include up to 5,000 Chinese security personnel on the ground in Iran to protect Chinese projects, and there will be additional personnel and material available to protect the eventual transit of oil, gas and petchems supply from Iran to China, where necessary, including through the Persian Gulf,” says the Iranian source.
    • This is significant, because Iran has always been touchy about foreign troops on its soil – Constitution downright bars foreign bases (part of why Russia’s bomber presence in Iran, used to support operations in Syria, was so short-lived).
    • Assuming this is accurate reporting. Mohsen: “they quoted an unnamed Iranian official. Imo they’re leaking the options Iran has should the US insist on not lifting sanctions and Euros make no meaningful effort on their own. Discounts and loss of sovereignty are severe so it looks like a last resort and not finalized.
  • First Yang vs. Trump direct poll (in New Hampshire) – Yang does almost as well as Biden & ahead of the other Dems
  • Military Watch: Ballistic Missile Submarines in the Chinese Navy; Developing a Second Stage Nuclear Deterrent – Part Two
    • The PLA has already begun development of the Type 96 Tang Class ballistic missile submarine, which is set to have capabilities comparable to the latest American and Russian warships. The warship will reportedly carry 24 JL-3 ballistic missiles, placing it among the most heavily armed submarines in the world.
  • *pdf* Hussain Ibrahim Qutrib: “Useful Syria” and Demographic Changes in Syria
    • Apparently, Sunnis are barely a majority now in the parts of Syria controlled by Assad. Will be good for future stability.
  • In a first for Beijing in Europe, Serbia to receive Chinese armed drones
  • Asia Times: Huawei calls the US intel community’s bluff
  • BCG: China’s Next Leap in Manufacturing

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Coffee Salon

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Culture War

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Powerful Takes

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  1. This is the current Open Thread, where anything goes – within reason.

    If you are new to my work, start here.

  2. The Houthi (?) attack on the Saudi oil infrastructure is something which still needs time to assess its impact.

    • Replies: @Abelard Lindsey
    @reiner Tor

    Perhaps it is the start of Peter Zeihan's Oil War.

    , @AnonFromTN
    @reiner Tor

    I don’t know about an immediate impact on business or oil prices. I think that was intended as a message to the Empire and its sidekicks in the region: a demonstration that everything in the neighborhood, including huge American bases and aircraft carrier groups, is in range. We’ll see whether intended recipients of this message learn the lesson the easy way, or will learn it only the hard way, with immense loss of face.

    , @neutral
    @reiner Tor

    The one impact is clear, the days of the US run so called "war" are over, I say "war" because bombing helpless opponents from the air is not a real war. The cheap access to drones means that all that expensive hardware Saudi Arabia has not given the automatic dominance in the war.

    I hope that the Houthis can start assassinating the Saudi royals with drone strikes (even better however would be the locals taking them out however), once those rotters are gone then Israel will have lost another loyal cuck state.

  3. German_reader says:

    It looks like mass migration to Europe will escalate again. Erdogan is threatening to send a new refugee flood to Europe, and with Salvini gone in Italy, Italian ports will be open again for the African ferry service. France and Germany have accepted taking in 25% of the “refugees” each. Germany’s minister of the interior Seehofer is a lying piece of shit as usual and claims this won’t really increase number of asylum seekers (lol).
    And since some commenters here always get agitated about my hostile stance towards contemporary Christians, I’ll link to this story about what Germany’s main body of Protestants is up to (not that the Catholics are any better):
    https://www.dw.com/en/germanys-protestant-church-to-send-rescue-ship-to-mediterranean/a-50407182

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @German_reader

    From an accelerationist point of view, this is not entirely bad. The situation should deteriorate very quickly if we want a reaction from the electorate. Also I’m not comfortable with the situation where Erdogan and Salvini were saving the German and French cuck governments from their own stupidity (while being thrashed as “anti-democratic”), this was never a stable situation.

    Replies: @German_reader, @Beckow

    , @songbird
    @German_reader

    I don't know much about religion and German politics, but it must be really fucked up.

    I mean, in the US, religious charities often receive tax money. Can't say definitely, but I believe it is a somewhat newish kind of thing, like Bush 43 era, or a little earlier. Obviously, this causes some level of corruption, and encourages churches to toe the official line. They don't always do it, like the Catholic church still doesn't endorse adoption by fags, but they do seem to all endorse immavasion, and receive funds for settling "refugees."The funny thing is, I've heard Jews talk about it. They endorse the invasion, of course, but are suspicious of the Church being involved, even when it comes to Muslims.

    But in Germany, of course, money goes through the state to the churches. They don't even have collections. I don't know how it is elsewhere in Europe, where there were a lot of state churches. I think separation of church and state is a much abused concept in the US, but on this level, taxes to churches seems obviously wrong and a way to spread corruption.

    , @AnonFromTN
    @German_reader

    So, you Germans let the state apparatus, several political parties, and both large “Christian” denominations be taken over by cucks. A few East Germans I know are vehemently against Merkel’s suicidal immigration policy. They don’t believe in any gods, either. Maybe that’s the way to save Germany?

    Replies: @German_reader, @songbird, @Anonymoose

    , @Dmitry
    @German_reader


    Salvini gone in Italy, Italian ports will be open again
     
    It was already starting to break in June, if you remember Sea-Watch 3 (where the judge had supported the captain):


    https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1171556793257996293


    Captain who broke Italy's migrant ban says ready to rescue more people at sea, raps EU

    A German captain who defied Italy's ban on boats bringing migrants ashore said on Tuesday she was determined to carry on rescuing migrants from the Mediterranean, even though her ship Sea-Watch 3 remains impounded in an Italian port.

    Carola Rackete, in Barcelona to receive an award from the Catalan parliament for her rescue missions, also urged the European Union to agree on a policy for redistributing migrants around the bloc to help relieve the pressure on Italy.

    "We are definitely willing (to continue rescuing migrants) and there's a full crew on board ready to sail at any point ... I think it’s a very, very important duty to rescue people in maritime distress," Rackete, 31, told Reuters.

    Sea-Watch 3 is currently detained in the Italian port of Lucata. In June, Rackete piloted the vessel into port on the Italian island of Lampedusa with 41 migrants aboard despite efforts by the then-interior minister Matteo Salvini, leader of the far-right League, to stop her.

     

    , @anon
    @German_reader

    It never stopped, around 10 000 at minimum entered just via Bosnia&Herzegovina, i would say it's at least 20 000, because government here lies about that stuff.

    Now it's just gonna get on intensity again. But i wouldn't count Erdogan words too much, it probably will be few thousands more per year. Med route tho. Especially with all those Scandinavians virtue signaling with those ships.

    Replies: @German_reader

  4. • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Priss Factor

    Herman Kahn wrote a book about how nuclear war was winnable in 1960. It's not a new idea:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Thermonuclear_War

    Replies: @Priss Factor, @Nodwink

  5. @German_reader
    It looks like mass migration to Europe will escalate again. Erdogan is threatening to send a new refugee flood to Europe, and with Salvini gone in Italy, Italian ports will be open again for the African ferry service. France and Germany have accepted taking in 25% of the "refugees" each. Germany's minister of the interior Seehofer is a lying piece of shit as usual and claims this won't really increase number of asylum seekers (lol).
    And since some commenters here always get agitated about my hostile stance towards contemporary Christians, I'll link to this story about what Germany's main body of Protestants is up to (not that the Catholics are any better):
    https://www.dw.com/en/germanys-protestant-church-to-send-rescue-ship-to-mediterranean/a-50407182

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @songbird, @AnonFromTN, @Dmitry, @anon

    From an accelerationist point of view, this is not entirely bad. The situation should deteriorate very quickly if we want a reaction from the electorate. Also I’m not comfortable with the situation where Erdogan and Salvini were saving the German and French cuck governments from their own stupidity (while being thrashed as “anti-democratic”), this was never a stable situation.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @reiner Tor


    From an accelerationist point of view, this is not entirely bad.
     
    I agree to some extent, it's just that I fear the majority in Germany will never wake up...the fanatics who are totally in favour of this project (at least 20-30% of the electorate) are beyond redemption anyway. But yes, the sooner it escalates, the better. The time for reasonable compromise is past anyway.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Anarcho-Supremacist

    , @Beckow
    @reiner Tor

    Timing is bad for acceleration - big elections behind us and a relative stable period for 1-2 years. So they will restart the migration madness hoping to again put a 'brake' on it at politically right time.

    I am always amazed by how many (not always liberal) morons I meet who actually argue with "but the number of migrants is down from last year" or 'there hasn't been as many sexual assaults lately" or 'did you see 5 people just got deported".

    The die-hard open borders fanatics are bad, but I am not sure the math-challenged split-the-difference moderates are much better (Seehofer, S.Kurz... ).

    Replies: @German_reader

  6. Excellent US-Russia Relations Discussion

    Re: https://consortiumnews.com/2019/09/13/watch-cn-live-special-on-russia-us-relations-with-george-beebe-ray-mcgovern-scott-ritter-tony-kevin-mark-sleboda-and-patrick-lawrence-episode-9/

    George Beebe starts off the discussion with a tone that’s noticeably different from his recent National Interest article, discussed in the linked SCF piece at the end of this note.

    At the 2 hour 45 minute 30 second point of the above linked video, Mark Sleboda provides a great follow-up, including a reference to comments made by Michael Hayden.

    For those with a keen interest on the subject, the entire video is well worth listening to.

    Related:

    https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2019/08/21/getting-real-with-the-us-foreign-policy-establishment-realists/

  7. German_reader says:
    @reiner Tor
    @German_reader

    From an accelerationist point of view, this is not entirely bad. The situation should deteriorate very quickly if we want a reaction from the electorate. Also I’m not comfortable with the situation where Erdogan and Salvini were saving the German and French cuck governments from their own stupidity (while being thrashed as “anti-democratic”), this was never a stable situation.

    Replies: @German_reader, @Beckow

    From an accelerationist point of view, this is not entirely bad.

    I agree to some extent, it’s just that I fear the majority in Germany will never wake up…the fanatics who are totally in favour of this project (at least 20-30% of the electorate) are beyond redemption anyway. But yes, the sooner it escalates, the better. The time for reasonable compromise is past anyway.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @German_reader

    If the people never wake up, then it at least won’t be any worse. (Only faster, but the final outcome will be the same.)

    I have seen arguments in Hungary (by our local liberals) how the EU solved the migration crisis. They shouldn’t take credit for things they didn’t do (and in fact actively resisted). It’s a good example how the removal of just one “populist” immediately made the situation worse. So it’s really only the “populists” who actually do anything to resolve the issue.

    Replies: @Thulean Friend

    , @Anarcho-Supremacist
    @German_reader

    Salvini was already going to win big time and now these latest actions are just going to increase his majority. They are almost giving it to him with their actions.

  8. I’ve been thinking about language and IQ. We talk about national IQ, but maybe language IQ is an overlooked concept.

    Take English. Got to figure a lot of people in the Third World speak it. Then a lot have it as a second or third language, so that makes it even dumber. It is commonly said that Hollywood scripts movies for an international audience, since many countries do not dub. Does this have any political ramifications to Anglo countries, even beyond immigration?

    • Replies: @Yevardian
    @songbird

    Mainly I just think it explains the absolutely abysmal level of quality of American films since perhaps the late 2000's, particularly Superhero stuff.

    If you look at many blockbuster American films from the 1970's ('Dog Day Afternoon', 'Taxi Driver', 'Mccabe & Mrs Miller', even 'Annie Hall'), most of them would be relegated to the 'arthouse' (totally meaningless term) circuit today.

  9. Next NSA Adviser

    Re: https://nationalinterest.org/blog/skeptics/will-john-bolton-go-war-against-donald-trump-79666

    Excerpt –

    But gaining steam is Ret. Col. Douglas Macgregor, a foreign policy realist and exuberant Trumpist. Macgregor is an ally of Carlson and a frequent guest on his program, the preeminent show on Fox. Last night, Macgregor appeared on Carlson’s show and essentially auditioned for the job, delivering a fiery critique of the Bolton view of the world. Macgregor called for the unilateral withdrawal of American forces from Afghanistan and Syria, arguing that the local powers can reach agreements that an American presence merely impedes. In addition, he called for Trump to sign on to an ‘end of war declaration’ with North Korea. A Macgregor-led NSC would adhere to Trump’s original America First vision in every way possible, including an outreach to Russia. Chief of Staff Mick Mulvaney is a foreign policy realist and libertarian warm to Macgregor. A Mulvaney aide who warred with Ambassador Bolton, Rob Blair, is also in play.

    Macgregor makes perfect sense on the premise of what Trump campaigned for. Notwithstanding, the following from 2017 is the kind of second guessing of Macgregor which tends to get muted in US mass media at large:

    https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2017/08/06/trump-versus-us-establishment-groupthink-on-russia/

    Excerpt –

    The Tucker Carlson hosted Fox News show continues to provide some reasonably dissenting views. One such recent segment featured retired US Army Colonel Douglas Macgregor, who believes that Capitol Hill has been overly bellicose towards Russia. Mind you that Macgregor is no Russophile. He expressed doubt on whether the US and Russia can ever become allies and characterized the latter as a periodic 300 year menace to the West.

    On this point, I expressed my disagreement to Macgregor (who I’ve had some prior limited discourse with) by noting that:

    – The West hasn’t been so monolithic, in conjunction with Russia not being such a perennial threat.

    – The US fought Germany in two world wars – not Russia.

    – Russian behavior during America’s Revolution, War of 1812 and Civil War was more favorable to America than the British stance.

    – Russia joined Britain, Prussia and Austria in opposing Napoleon.

    – Russia had openly inquired about NATO membership upon the Soviet collapse.

    – Russia was the first nation to console the US on 9/11, followed by Russian cooperation with the US in Afghanistan.

    I haven’t gotten a reply back from him. In the aforementioned Fox News segment, Macgregor noted how some special interest groups get disproportionate influence in the US. Concerning that matter, I brought to his attention the Democratic National Committee-Kiev regime collusion and a July 31 pro-Polish/anti-Russian National Interest article, which is cherry picked history – contradicting the realist image of the venue where it appeared.

    I’m of the belief that patriotically minded Russians should be able to acknowledge bad moments on Russia’s part relative to Poland and some others. Conversely, the same should hold true when it comes to the wrongs of others. While glorying Poland and bashing Russia, The National Interest article in question omits the following:

    1919 – Under Josef Pilsudski, Poland seeks to take former Russian Empire territory, largely inhabited by non-Poles with ties to Russia. The Pilsudski led Poles reject a Russian White offer to combat the Reds, when the Bolsheviks were in a losing situation. The Russian Whites were willing to recognize a Polish state within Polish ethnic boundaries.

    1920 -Thousands of Soviet POWs die under miserable conditions while in Polish captivity.

    1934 – Polish-Nazi non-aggression pact, four years prior to the Nazi-Soviet non-aggression pact.

    1938 – Polish, Nazi and Hungarian taking of CzechoSlovak territory, with the Soviet call for a joint Soviet-West (particularly French) counter support for CzechoSlovakia rebuffed.

    According to German General Heinz Guderian and some other sources, the Soviets needed a break on their WW II westward offensive. After the Stalingrad battle, the Nazis were still a threat, as evidenced by the many casualties they were still able to inflict on the Red Army. The Polish Home Army didn’t initially seek to coordinate their uprising with the Red Army. That only came after the Nazi counterattack in Warsaw.

    Under Stalin, the USSR had some especially brutal aspects. Nevertheless, equating the USSR with Nazi Germany is false. The former utilized a good number of Jews and Poles – something the latter wouldn’t tolerate. Between the two world wars, Poland left something to be desired on the subject of respecting non-Polish minorities.

    One can also go back to the early 1600s Polish subjugation of Russia, as well as the close to 100,000 Poles who joined Napoleon in his attack on Russia.”

  10. Regarding Mark Galeotti:

    http://johnhelmer.net/mark-galeotti-is-a-fact-faker-his-book-on-russian-crime-is-a-hate-crime-a-war-crime/

    He gets way too much play as evidenced in part by his RT appearances, only to then see him come back with an inaccurate JRL promoted Moscow Times hack piece about that station.

    • Replies: @Gerard1234
    @Mikhail

    Very interesting. From the little that I've have seen, it's still easy to decipher that this guy is not a Russian "expert". Apart from the clear anti-Russian stance it was the ridiculous use of Russian words of obvious English origin that this cretin was using to make him sound as if he was an expert in Russian!

    You know, like " the Russians have this word for spreading dubious theories..... they call it дезинформация" - utterly ridiculous nonsense like that

    Replies: @Mikhail

  11. @German_reader
    @reiner Tor


    From an accelerationist point of view, this is not entirely bad.
     
    I agree to some extent, it's just that I fear the majority in Germany will never wake up...the fanatics who are totally in favour of this project (at least 20-30% of the electorate) are beyond redemption anyway. But yes, the sooner it escalates, the better. The time for reasonable compromise is past anyway.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Anarcho-Supremacist

    If the people never wake up, then it at least won’t be any worse. (Only faster, but the final outcome will be the same.)

    I have seen arguments in Hungary (by our local liberals) how the EU solved the migration crisis. They shouldn’t take credit for things they didn’t do (and in fact actively resisted). It’s a good example how the removal of just one “populist” immediately made the situation worse. So it’s really only the “populists” who actually do anything to resolve the issue.

    • Replies: @Thulean Friend
    @reiner Tor


    If the people never wake up, then it at least won’t be any worse. (Only faster, but the final outcome will be the same.)
     
    That is a very fatalist mentality, and one which should be rejected. There is no magic threshold, no magic percentage, when people suddenly jolt out of their preconditioned beliefs and reach the nationalist nirvana.

    Look no further than South Africa for proof of this tenet. Most SA whites ("saffers") still subscribe to race-blind neoliberalism, even if they deeply resent figures like Malema and his cheaper imitators in the ruling ANC. You'd think being only 8% of the population with a virulently hostile 80% black majority all around you with all the violence that entails would accelerate radicalism. No dice.

    Flooding your own country with third worlders won't do much to rectify things. The roots of the malaise is that most whites still hold onto deep liberal beliefs and many of these were formed during the enlightenment. We have to accept the fact that they are not all evil or misguided, which makes the situation compellingly difficult. Many of these principles helped us a great deal to reduce massive and recurring violent spasms which were roiling Europe for centuries, whether on religious or ethnic grounds. We took a successful model and pushed it too far. This call for erudition and learned argument, not crude and vulgar gestures where you try to shock people temporarily but which do not get onto solving a deeper rooted cause. Intellectual debate is what is required, not more third worlders. That will only reduce our standard of living without cutting the mechanism which justifies their existance among us.

    Replies: @German_reader

  12. Thorfinnsson’s estimate of Allies’ contributions to victory in WWII:

    USA: 40%
    USSR: 35%
    Britain & Dominions: 25%

    I wonder how he’d reckon the relative contribution of Sweden vs. Russia to Protestant victory in the Thirty Years War. According to his criteria, it should be about equal.

  13. @German_reader
    It looks like mass migration to Europe will escalate again. Erdogan is threatening to send a new refugee flood to Europe, and with Salvini gone in Italy, Italian ports will be open again for the African ferry service. France and Germany have accepted taking in 25% of the "refugees" each. Germany's minister of the interior Seehofer is a lying piece of shit as usual and claims this won't really increase number of asylum seekers (lol).
    And since some commenters here always get agitated about my hostile stance towards contemporary Christians, I'll link to this story about what Germany's main body of Protestants is up to (not that the Catholics are any better):
    https://www.dw.com/en/germanys-protestant-church-to-send-rescue-ship-to-mediterranean/a-50407182

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @songbird, @AnonFromTN, @Dmitry, @anon

    I don’t know much about religion and German politics, but it must be really fucked up.

    I mean, in the US, religious charities often receive tax money. Can’t say definitely, but I believe it is a somewhat newish kind of thing, like Bush 43 era, or a little earlier. Obviously, this causes some level of corruption, and encourages churches to toe the official line. They don’t always do it, like the Catholic church still doesn’t endorse adoption by fags, but they do seem to all endorse immavasion, and receive funds for settling “refugees.”The funny thing is, I’ve heard Jews talk about it. They endorse the invasion, of course, but are suspicious of the Church being involved, even when it comes to Muslims.

    But in Germany, of course, money goes through the state to the churches. They don’t even have collections. I don’t know how it is elsewhere in Europe, where there were a lot of state churches. I think separation of church and state is a much abused concept in the US, but on this level, taxes to churches seems obviously wrong and a way to spread corruption.

  14. Lol at that Simon Mol story. The guy was a walking biological weapon who knew how to lure and prey on naive liberal female SJWs. These type of women are pretty easy to figure out and con just because of how naive they are.

    His own words:

    Simon picked up many of his women from the “Warsaw Salon” – an artistic, liberal circle. In his writing Simon described these girls as ‘white mice’ – “sensitive, and adoring women who believed they were doing their duty towards political correctness by helping the poor refugee.”

    That part was from the moldbugman thread.

    From his Wikipedia page:

    In 2004, on behalf of the President of Poland, he was nominated for the Sergio Vieira de Mello Prize, alongside the ex-PM Tadeusz Mazowiecki and other Polish luminaries, for “rebuilding peace in post-conflict communities”, under the patronage of the High Commissioner of the United Nations for Refugees, among other institutions.[39]

    Mol was an honorary member of the British International Pen Club Centre.[40]

    In 2006 Mol received the prestigious Oxfam Novib/PEN Award for Freedom of Expression.[41][42]

  15. Can Trump even win a second term? I’m predicting no: demographic changes.

    I don’t think there will be another Republican president, unless the franchise is restricted again, or part of the US secedes, and, despite the Reconquista rhetoric, I don’t think Mexicans really want to rejoin Mexico.

    New Hampshire probably isn’t a good indicator for the Dems. As a party, they’ve been hostile to NH having the first in the nation primary for a long time now.

    • Replies: @davidgmillsatty
    @songbird

    The Democrats have the edge in popular vote. The Republicans have the edge in the Electoral College vote. And it will stay that way for a long time. The Democrats will get more and more urban giving them an edge in the popular vote. The Republicans will get more and more rural and suburban giving them an edge in the Electoral College vote.

    And the ability to change the Constitution to make the Electoral College reflect the popular vote is damn near impossible. So the Democrats will not take over. It might be the reverse.

  16. @Priss Factor
    Trump sure knows how to pick them.

    https://theduran.com/nuclear-war-with-russia-winnable-said-trumps-incoming-national-security-advisor/

    Replies: @Anonymous

    Herman Kahn wrote a book about how nuclear war was winnable in 1960. It’s not a new idea:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Thermonuclear_War

    • Replies: @Priss Factor
    @Anonymous


    Herman Kahn wrote a book about how nuclear war was winnable in 1960. It’s not a new idea:
     
    It's context. We are moving into retro-cold-war, what with the US trashing the ICBM treaty. When spouted by political figures, it's not merely academic. It says something about the state of mind of these people.
    , @Nodwink
    @Anonymous

    I'm a supporter of self-imposed nuclear annihilation, this being the first I'd heard of it: http://exiledonline.com/feature-story-the-case-for-nuclear-winter/

  17. @reiner Tor
    @German_reader

    If the people never wake up, then it at least won’t be any worse. (Only faster, but the final outcome will be the same.)

    I have seen arguments in Hungary (by our local liberals) how the EU solved the migration crisis. They shouldn’t take credit for things they didn’t do (and in fact actively resisted). It’s a good example how the removal of just one “populist” immediately made the situation worse. So it’s really only the “populists” who actually do anything to resolve the issue.

    Replies: @Thulean Friend

    If the people never wake up, then it at least won’t be any worse. (Only faster, but the final outcome will be the same.)

    That is a very fatalist mentality, and one which should be rejected. There is no magic threshold, no magic percentage, when people suddenly jolt out of their preconditioned beliefs and reach the nationalist nirvana.

    Look no further than South Africa for proof of this tenet. Most SA whites (“saffers”) still subscribe to race-blind neoliberalism, even if they deeply resent figures like Malema and his cheaper imitators in the ruling ANC. You’d think being only 8% of the population with a virulently hostile 80% black majority all around you with all the violence that entails would accelerate radicalism. No dice.

    Flooding your own country with third worlders won’t do much to rectify things. The roots of the malaise is that most whites still hold onto deep liberal beliefs and many of these were formed during the enlightenment. We have to accept the fact that they are not all evil or misguided, which makes the situation compellingly difficult. Many of these principles helped us a great deal to reduce massive and recurring violent spasms which were roiling Europe for centuries, whether on religious or ethnic grounds. We took a successful model and pushed it too far. This call for erudition and learned argument, not crude and vulgar gestures where you try to shock people temporarily but which do not get onto solving a deeper rooted cause. Intellectual debate is what is required, not more third worlders. That will only reduce our standard of living without cutting the mechanism which justifies their existance among us.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Thulean Friend


    Look no further than South Africa for proof of this tenet.
     
    South Africa is of only limited relevance to the European situation imo. Yes, I know, the blacks mostly aren't really "native" there either, and the Boers have been there for centuries, but still, it's a different situation from Europe where fairly homogenous nation states were the norm only a few decades ago.

    most whites still hold onto deep liberal beliefs and many of these were formed during the enlightenment.
     
    You're sounding almost like AaronB...is there anything the Enlightenment won't be blamed for?

    Replies: @Thulean Friend

  18. @reiner Tor
    The Houthi (?) attack on the Saudi oil infrastructure is something which still needs time to assess its impact.

    Replies: @Abelard Lindsey, @AnonFromTN, @neutral

    Perhaps it is the start of Peter Zeihan’s Oil War.

  19. German_reader says:
    @Thulean Friend
    @reiner Tor


    If the people never wake up, then it at least won’t be any worse. (Only faster, but the final outcome will be the same.)
     
    That is a very fatalist mentality, and one which should be rejected. There is no magic threshold, no magic percentage, when people suddenly jolt out of their preconditioned beliefs and reach the nationalist nirvana.

    Look no further than South Africa for proof of this tenet. Most SA whites ("saffers") still subscribe to race-blind neoliberalism, even if they deeply resent figures like Malema and his cheaper imitators in the ruling ANC. You'd think being only 8% of the population with a virulently hostile 80% black majority all around you with all the violence that entails would accelerate radicalism. No dice.

    Flooding your own country with third worlders won't do much to rectify things. The roots of the malaise is that most whites still hold onto deep liberal beliefs and many of these were formed during the enlightenment. We have to accept the fact that they are not all evil or misguided, which makes the situation compellingly difficult. Many of these principles helped us a great deal to reduce massive and recurring violent spasms which were roiling Europe for centuries, whether on religious or ethnic grounds. We took a successful model and pushed it too far. This call for erudition and learned argument, not crude and vulgar gestures where you try to shock people temporarily but which do not get onto solving a deeper rooted cause. Intellectual debate is what is required, not more third worlders. That will only reduce our standard of living without cutting the mechanism which justifies their existance among us.

    Replies: @German_reader

    Look no further than South Africa for proof of this tenet.

    South Africa is of only limited relevance to the European situation imo. Yes, I know, the blacks mostly aren’t really “native” there either, and the Boers have been there for centuries, but still, it’s a different situation from Europe where fairly homogenous nation states were the norm only a few decades ago.

    most whites still hold onto deep liberal beliefs and many of these were formed during the enlightenment.

    You’re sounding almost like AaronB…is there anything the Enlightenment won’t be blamed for?

    • Replies: @Thulean Friend
    @German_reader

    There's a lot to unpack here, and we seem to have different underlying assumptions. I can't guess what yours are but here are mine.

    1. It doesn't matter much how homogenous the country is. What matters is the inherent ethnocentrism of the particular community living there. Case in point: jews. Despite all the talk about assimilation and a "silent holocaust", they are still a very coherent ethnic group with strong-ingroup preferences. Even in the case when one of them marries out, there is a concerted effort to convert the partner. And so on That did not happen by happenstance or by accident. It is a direct outcome of their culture and social priorities over a long period of time.

    2. South Africa as a country is not analogous to Europe, but White South African people are, i.e. the Afrikaaners. That is the core of my argument. They are ethnically no different from you and me. Most of them are from North Germanic stock. As such, their experiences matter greatly and we can learn a lot. It's about the particular community, not the country as a whole.

    3. I have no interest in defending other people's positions, but I can defend mine. On the enlightenment, it seems you skipped several important sentences.


    Many of these principles helped us a great deal to reduce massive and recurring violent spasms which were roiling Europe for centuries, whether on religious or ethnic grounds. We took a successful model and pushed it too far.
     
    In my mind, this isn't exactly "let's blame it all on enlightenment"-material. It's a much more nuanced position, granting legitimacy to previous accomplishments and warning against throwing the baby out of the bathwater. If anything, it is a call for moderation, not a radical break. I do not understand how you could construe it to something else.

    Replies: @songbird

  20. Mike Johnson: What’s out there?

    Is this a joke?

  21. It looks like the first Russian fast food chain to trial Beyond Meat will be the traditionalist Teremok chain

    Just another feather in Teremok’s cap. Took this a few weeks ago.

    • Disagree: Thorfinnsson
    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Thulean Friend

    Looks disgusting, why are you eating something like that?

    Replies: @Thulean Friend

  22. @Thulean Friend

    It looks like the first Russian fast food chain to trial Beyond Meat will be the traditionalist Teremok chain
     
    Just another feather in Teremok's cap. Took this a few weeks ago.

    https://i.imgur.com/9ITKph6.jpg

    Replies: @German_reader

    Looks disgusting, why are you eating something like that?

    • Agree: AP
    • Replies: @Thulean Friend
    @German_reader

    You remind me of a boomer ;)

    Replies: @Anonymoose

  23. I am old and recall when the supposed winnability of nuclear war was being asserted. The contention was made that “In 5 years after the nuclear exchange, everything would be back to normal.” I remember this refuting, witty reply: “It takes 5 years for an expansion sports franchise to become competitive.”

  24. God that population map is depressing, even if I already knew it.

  25. @German_reader
    @Thulean Friend


    Look no further than South Africa for proof of this tenet.
     
    South Africa is of only limited relevance to the European situation imo. Yes, I know, the blacks mostly aren't really "native" there either, and the Boers have been there for centuries, but still, it's a different situation from Europe where fairly homogenous nation states were the norm only a few decades ago.

    most whites still hold onto deep liberal beliefs and many of these were formed during the enlightenment.
     
    You're sounding almost like AaronB...is there anything the Enlightenment won't be blamed for?

    Replies: @Thulean Friend

    There’s a lot to unpack here, and we seem to have different underlying assumptions. I can’t guess what yours are but here are mine.

    1. It doesn’t matter much how homogenous the country is. What matters is the inherent ethnocentrism of the particular community living there. Case in point: jews. Despite all the talk about assimilation and a “silent holocaust”, they are still a very coherent ethnic group with strong-ingroup preferences. Even in the case when one of them marries out, there is a concerted effort to convert the partner. And so on That did not happen by happenstance or by accident. It is a direct outcome of their culture and social priorities over a long period of time.

    2. South Africa as a country is not analogous to Europe, but White South African people are, i.e. the Afrikaaners. That is the core of my argument. They are ethnically no different from you and me. Most of them are from North Germanic stock. As such, their experiences matter greatly and we can learn a lot. It’s about the particular community, not the country as a whole.

    3. I have no interest in defending other people’s positions, but I can defend mine. On the enlightenment, it seems you skipped several important sentences.

    Many of these principles helped us a great deal to reduce massive and recurring violent spasms which were roiling Europe for centuries, whether on religious or ethnic grounds. We took a successful model and pushed it too far.

    In my mind, this isn’t exactly “let’s blame it all on enlightenment”-material. It’s a much more nuanced position, granting legitimacy to previous accomplishments and warning against throwing the baby out of the bathwater. If anything, it is a call for moderation, not a radical break. I do not understand how you could construe it to something else.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @Thulean Friend

    White South Africans are an interesting group. For once, I am going to agree with Bliss, and say that you can often see the non-white admixture in their faces. It is kind of startling to think about: most of the time it is a low amount like 2-3%, and a mix at that (Malay, Bushmen, and Bantu), but I swear, you still can often see it. Like take a good look at five men, and you will see it in at least one. Maybe, these people are a higher percentage admixture?

    But I concur in general: they are at least politically white, if not fully European. And it is utterly amazing how South African expats who have had friends raped and killed, who say they are never going back, and are vocally grim on the country's prospects, often repeat mainline rhetoric about discrimination being wrong, or even Orania being wrong. Or the Boers being racists.

    Same lesson regarding America. Americans are just Europeans in North America, though many Europeans would like to think differently. In fact, Americans might be better situated, being further from Africa. Some think that America had no culture, and that is why it was susceptible. This is an error: it did have one.

    Replies: @German_reader, @neutral, @Gerard1234

  26. @Anonymous
    @Priss Factor

    Herman Kahn wrote a book about how nuclear war was winnable in 1960. It's not a new idea:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Thermonuclear_War

    Replies: @Priss Factor, @Nodwink

    Herman Kahn wrote a book about how nuclear war was winnable in 1960. It’s not a new idea:

    It’s context. We are moving into retro-cold-war, what with the US trashing the ICBM treaty. When spouted by political figures, it’s not merely academic. It says something about the state of mind of these people.

  27. @German_reader
    @Thulean Friend

    Looks disgusting, why are you eating something like that?

    Replies: @Thulean Friend

    You remind me of a boomer 😉

    • Replies: @Anonymoose
    @Thulean Friend

    No need to be a boomer to think that. It does look disgusting. What the hell is it made from?

    Replies: @inertial

  28. Interesting that that Simon Mol character died. In Western Europe or the US, he probably would have been given anti-retrovirals.

    One demographic trick Europeans may still have up their sleeves is to stop vaccinating or giving healthcare to Third Worlders.

  29. On the issue of the importance of ideas over everything else (past demography, geography etc) is this nicely summed up tweet:

    https://twitter.com/LivesMorgoth/status/1173338038723862528

    Accelerationists do not understand or appreciate this. People won’t suddenly “wake up” just because the demography changes, even if suddenly. They will just spasm for a period of time but all their cultural moorings prevents them from drawing the correct conclusions, and so will be easily led back into the fold over time. I’d rather reach the correct conclusions with minimal disturbances than flail around with third worlders everywhere around me. The obstacle is primarily intellectual, rooted in deeper belief systems. It won’t be solved by flooding yourself faster, that is lazy and fundamentally self-destructive.

    P.S. notice that the account spouting the liberal opinion is an UKIP:er. The problem is not “the left”. It goes much deeper than that.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @Thulean Friend

    I'm not an accelerationist, mainly because I think there could be a genetic shift in whites, regarding ethnocentrism.

  30. @reiner Tor
    @German_reader

    From an accelerationist point of view, this is not entirely bad. The situation should deteriorate very quickly if we want a reaction from the electorate. Also I’m not comfortable with the situation where Erdogan and Salvini were saving the German and French cuck governments from their own stupidity (while being thrashed as “anti-democratic”), this was never a stable situation.

    Replies: @German_reader, @Beckow

    Timing is bad for acceleration – big elections behind us and a relative stable period for 1-2 years. So they will restart the migration madness hoping to again put a ‘brake’ on it at politically right time.

    I am always amazed by how many (not always liberal) morons I meet who actually argue with “but the number of migrants is down from last year” or ‘there hasn’t been as many sexual assaults lately” or ‘did you see 5 people just got deported“.

    The die-hard open borders fanatics are bad, but I am not sure the math-challenged split-the-difference moderates are much better (Seehofer, S.Kurz… ).

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Beckow


    but I am not sure the math-challenged split-the-difference moderates are much better (Seehofer, S.Kurz… )
     
    That's a rather charitable assessment of Seehofer and Kurz.
    The Austrian Christian Democrats have actually made banning the identitarians (!) a pre-condition for any future coalition government and have also stated they won't accept a return of the FPÖ's Herbert Kickl (who's actually serious about immigration restriction) as minister of the interior. The only explanation for such behaviour is that they actually want mass immigration to continue and want to criminalize opposition to it.
    As for Seehofer, the man is just scum, nothing "moderate" about him either, he's supported every open borders initiative of Merkel's government and was a firm defender of the UN global compact for migration. His only function is to lull braindead conservatives who are afraid of being called Nazis into still voting for the Christian Democrats.

    Replies: @Beckow

  31. Jungle Fever and Afro-Colonization of White Wombs will be the undoing of the white race.

    These are affluent college educated girls.

    https://twitter.com/PrisonPlanet/status/1172572006769991680

    • Replies: @Thulean Friend
    @Priss Factor

    I am less concerned about white wombs than I am about white men who allow that shit to happen.

    Replies: @Priss Factor

    , @Anonymoose
    @Priss Factor

    Speaking of PJW

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D84nwxkW4AImOi0.png

    Replies: @German_reader

    , @Abelard Lindsey
    @Priss Factor

    Has it ever occurred to any of these ladies in the video that they are acting essentially like animals?

    , @Epigon
    @Priss Factor

    This isn’t USA, no goblinas, orcs and Uruks are present.
    Besides, there are actual stunners present, and most of thots have no cellulite and are toned unlike US flabby, skinnyfat girls. The video was posted to ridicule them whyte wymen, because they fail compared to ghetto rat “artists” of the “craft” of twerking.

    It is apparently Ukraine, Odessa.

    As much as I would enjoy the company of several of those blondies, witnessing this behaviour kills any desire to interact with them. Twerking is disgusting on so many levels, animals in heat act with more dignity.

    Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous

  32. @Thulean Friend
    @German_reader

    There's a lot to unpack here, and we seem to have different underlying assumptions. I can't guess what yours are but here are mine.

    1. It doesn't matter much how homogenous the country is. What matters is the inherent ethnocentrism of the particular community living there. Case in point: jews. Despite all the talk about assimilation and a "silent holocaust", they are still a very coherent ethnic group with strong-ingroup preferences. Even in the case when one of them marries out, there is a concerted effort to convert the partner. And so on That did not happen by happenstance or by accident. It is a direct outcome of their culture and social priorities over a long period of time.

    2. South Africa as a country is not analogous to Europe, but White South African people are, i.e. the Afrikaaners. That is the core of my argument. They are ethnically no different from you and me. Most of them are from North Germanic stock. As such, their experiences matter greatly and we can learn a lot. It's about the particular community, not the country as a whole.

    3. I have no interest in defending other people's positions, but I can defend mine. On the enlightenment, it seems you skipped several important sentences.


    Many of these principles helped us a great deal to reduce massive and recurring violent spasms which were roiling Europe for centuries, whether on religious or ethnic grounds. We took a successful model and pushed it too far.
     
    In my mind, this isn't exactly "let's blame it all on enlightenment"-material. It's a much more nuanced position, granting legitimacy to previous accomplishments and warning against throwing the baby out of the bathwater. If anything, it is a call for moderation, not a radical break. I do not understand how you could construe it to something else.

    Replies: @songbird

    White South Africans are an interesting group. For once, I am going to agree with Bliss, and say that you can often see the non-white admixture in their faces. It is kind of startling to think about: most of the time it is a low amount like 2-3%, and a mix at that (Malay, Bushmen, and Bantu), but I swear, you still can often see it. Like take a good look at five men, and you will see it in at least one. Maybe, these people are a higher percentage admixture?

    But I concur in general: they are at least politically white, if not fully European. And it is utterly amazing how South African expats who have had friends raped and killed, who say they are never going back, and are vocally grim on the country’s prospects, often repeat mainline rhetoric about discrimination being wrong, or even Orania being wrong. Or the Boers being racists.

    Same lesson regarding America. Americans are just Europeans in North America, though many Europeans would like to think differently. In fact, Americans might be better situated, being further from Africa. Some think that America had no culture, and that is why it was susceptible. This is an error: it did have one.

    • Agree: Thulean Friend
    • Replies: @German_reader
    @songbird


    This is an error: it did have one.
     
    Yes, but unfortunately the Yankee fanatics who came up with "John Brown's body" and "Battle hymn of the republic" were a strong component of it.

    Replies: @songbird

    , @neutral
    @songbird


    you can often see the non-white admixture in their faces
     
    The Afrikaners are not the only whites in South Africa, they were the earliest settlers and had some significant miscegenation at the beginning. However the non Afrikaner groups are about 40% of the whites and you will not be able to tell if they are from South Africa, America or where the place their ancestors are from (mostly Britain, Germany, former Portuguese colonies).

    As for the the dominance of liberalism, despite the impossibility of denying the racial realities of black run societies, this is absolutely true. The pop culture that Hollywood churns out is just as consumed and taken seriously as it is in most other formerly white lands, so is the neoliberal ideology of The Economist taken as gospel by the business elite. Then there is the very strong fear factor, talking about race is very dangerous, even with the closest of friends. Even if one does not sincerely believe in liberal theologies, the risk of going against it is so great that most will just accept it.

    , @Gerard1234
    @songbird


    And it is utterly amazing how South African expats who have had friends raped and killed, who say they are never going back, and are vocally grim on the country’s prospects, often repeat mainline rhetoric about discrimination being wrong, or even Orania being wrong. Or the Boers being racists.
     
    From what I have seen from my friends there, this applies just as much to the Indian population who have emigrated from South Africa, as it does to the white population. They say the exact same things. I would even guess that White-African intermarriage in South Africa is less rare than Indian-African.

    Many, many South African Indians are in UK, US, Australia, Canada, New Zealand ( i.e the exact same places that most of the white South Africans have emigrated to). Apart from some of those of Huguenot heritage going to France, none of the White South Africans have emigrated to Holland or continental Europe

    but despite all this, the white population in South Africa is still very stable in the years since the change of power.....compare that to a shithole like Ukraine.
  33. German_reader says:
    @Beckow
    @reiner Tor

    Timing is bad for acceleration - big elections behind us and a relative stable period for 1-2 years. So they will restart the migration madness hoping to again put a 'brake' on it at politically right time.

    I am always amazed by how many (not always liberal) morons I meet who actually argue with "but the number of migrants is down from last year" or 'there hasn't been as many sexual assaults lately" or 'did you see 5 people just got deported".

    The die-hard open borders fanatics are bad, but I am not sure the math-challenged split-the-difference moderates are much better (Seehofer, S.Kurz... ).

    Replies: @German_reader

    but I am not sure the math-challenged split-the-difference moderates are much better (Seehofer, S.Kurz… )

    That’s a rather charitable assessment of Seehofer and Kurz.
    The Austrian Christian Democrats have actually made banning the identitarians (!) a pre-condition for any future coalition government and have also stated they won’t accept a return of the FPÖ’s Herbert Kickl (who’s actually serious about immigration restriction) as minister of the interior. The only explanation for such behaviour is that they actually want mass immigration to continue and want to criminalize opposition to it.
    As for Seehofer, the man is just scum, nothing “moderate” about him either, he’s supported every open borders initiative of Merkel’s government and was a firm defender of the UN global compact for migration. His only function is to lull braindead conservatives who are afraid of being called Nazis into still voting for the Christian Democrats.

    • Replies: @Beckow
    @German_reader


    ...charitable assessment of Seehofer and Kurz.
     
    Yeah, you are right. I am more charitable on Sundays, you know the Christian thing :)...
  34. @songbird
    @Thulean Friend

    White South Africans are an interesting group. For once, I am going to agree with Bliss, and say that you can often see the non-white admixture in their faces. It is kind of startling to think about: most of the time it is a low amount like 2-3%, and a mix at that (Malay, Bushmen, and Bantu), but I swear, you still can often see it. Like take a good look at five men, and you will see it in at least one. Maybe, these people are a higher percentage admixture?

    But I concur in general: they are at least politically white, if not fully European. And it is utterly amazing how South African expats who have had friends raped and killed, who say they are never going back, and are vocally grim on the country's prospects, often repeat mainline rhetoric about discrimination being wrong, or even Orania being wrong. Or the Boers being racists.

    Same lesson regarding America. Americans are just Europeans in North America, though many Europeans would like to think differently. In fact, Americans might be better situated, being further from Africa. Some think that America had no culture, and that is why it was susceptible. This is an error: it did have one.

    Replies: @German_reader, @neutral, @Gerard1234

    This is an error: it did have one.

    Yes, but unfortunately the Yankee fanatics who came up with “John Brown’s body” and “Battle hymn of the republic” were a strong component of it.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @German_reader

    Funny you should mention that: the book I am reading now is Flashman and the Angel of the Lord. Has Flashman recruited reluctantly into joining John Brown in an effort to foil him.

    Julia Ward Howe, who wrote the lyrics to Battlehym, was the wife of a member of the the Secret Six who funded John Brown. Thorfinn likes the song, but I find it pretty abominable, even beyond its racial connotations. It is a song written by a woman celebrating the killing of men, for feelz.

  35. @Thulean Friend
    On the issue of the importance of ideas over everything else (past demography, geography etc) is this nicely summed up tweet:

    https://twitter.com/LivesMorgoth/status/1173338038723862528

    Accelerationists do not understand or appreciate this. People won't suddenly "wake up" just because the demography changes, even if suddenly. They will just spasm for a period of time but all their cultural moorings prevents them from drawing the correct conclusions, and so will be easily led back into the fold over time. I'd rather reach the correct conclusions with minimal disturbances than flail around with third worlders everywhere around me. The obstacle is primarily intellectual, rooted in deeper belief systems. It won't be solved by flooding yourself faster, that is lazy and fundamentally self-destructive.

    P.S. notice that the account spouting the liberal opinion is an UKIP:er. The problem is not "the left". It goes much deeper than that.

    Replies: @songbird

    I’m not an accelerationist, mainly because I think there could be a genetic shift in whites, regarding ethnocentrism.

  36. @German_reader
    @Beckow


    but I am not sure the math-challenged split-the-difference moderates are much better (Seehofer, S.Kurz… )
     
    That's a rather charitable assessment of Seehofer and Kurz.
    The Austrian Christian Democrats have actually made banning the identitarians (!) a pre-condition for any future coalition government and have also stated they won't accept a return of the FPÖ's Herbert Kickl (who's actually serious about immigration restriction) as minister of the interior. The only explanation for such behaviour is that they actually want mass immigration to continue and want to criminalize opposition to it.
    As for Seehofer, the man is just scum, nothing "moderate" about him either, he's supported every open borders initiative of Merkel's government and was a firm defender of the UN global compact for migration. His only function is to lull braindead conservatives who are afraid of being called Nazis into still voting for the Christian Democrats.

    Replies: @Beckow

    …charitable assessment of Seehofer and Kurz.

    Yeah, you are right. I am more charitable on Sundays, you know the Christian thing :)…

  37. @Priss Factor
    Jungle Fever and Afro-Colonization of White Wombs will be the undoing of the white race.

    These are affluent college educated girls.

    https://twitter.com/PrisonPlanet/status/1172572006769991680

    Replies: @Thulean Friend, @Anonymoose, @Abelard Lindsey, @Epigon

    I am less concerned about white wombs than I am about white men who allow that shit to happen.

    • Replies: @Priss Factor
    @Thulean Friend


    I am less concerned about white wombs than I am about white men who allow that shit to happen.
     
    What can white men do? White women are liberated and can do as they please. As their music is rap and hip hop, this is how they act. And their boomer fathers grew up to rock and roll, and their white boyfriends(that is, if they are white) are a bunch of cuckish fans of rap music and black sports.

    It used to be that to-have-power meant you had control over your urges.
    Now, 'empowerment' means to give in to your urges.

    Loss of self-control in favor of more pleasure. It's the empowerment of junkies who gotta have drugs.

    Replies: @Thulean Friend

  38. @Thulean Friend
    @Priss Factor

    I am less concerned about white wombs than I am about white men who allow that shit to happen.

    Replies: @Priss Factor

    I am less concerned about white wombs than I am about white men who allow that shit to happen.

    What can white men do? White women are liberated and can do as they please. As their music is rap and hip hop, this is how they act. And their boomer fathers grew up to rock and roll, and their white boyfriends(that is, if they are white) are a bunch of cuckish fans of rap music and black sports.

    It used to be that to-have-power meant you had control over your urges.
    Now, ’empowerment’ means to give in to your urges.

    Loss of self-control in favor of more pleasure. It’s the empowerment of junkies who gotta have drugs.

    • Replies: @Thulean Friend
    @Priss Factor


    What can white men do?
     
    Saying no for a start. Not having a defeatist attitude that nothing can be done. None of this is inevitable or a given. Social norms are a constant negotiation and a contest of willpower, ultimately.

    And their boomer fathers grew up to rock and roll, and their white boyfriends(if they are white) are a bunch of cuckish fans of rap music and black sports.
     
    You're making my point for me. The rot is just as deep with white men, if not deeper. Women just imitate men in their vincinity, whether fathers, brothers, boyfriends, classmates etc. Do you think that Jewish Orthodox women act the way they act because they are special women in some way? They act the way they act because of jewish orthodox men imposing their will.

    White men have been so pussywhipped that acting as men, and being unapologetic about male authority, is seen as inconceivable, even unfathomamable.

    Replies: @Priss Factor

  39. @Thulean Friend
    @German_reader

    You remind me of a boomer ;)

    Replies: @Anonymoose

    No need to be a boomer to think that. It does look disgusting. What the hell is it made from?

    • Replies: @inertial
    @Anonymoose

    I like fried minced meat as much as the next guy but it's far more disgusting when you think about it. Dairy and eggs too.

    Replies: @Epigon, @Kent Nationalist

  40. @German_reader
    @songbird


    This is an error: it did have one.
     
    Yes, but unfortunately the Yankee fanatics who came up with "John Brown's body" and "Battle hymn of the republic" were a strong component of it.

    Replies: @songbird

    Funny you should mention that: the book I am reading now is Flashman and the Angel of the Lord. Has Flashman recruited reluctantly into joining John Brown in an effort to foil him.

    Julia Ward Howe, who wrote the lyrics to Battlehym, was the wife of a member of the the Secret Six who funded John Brown. Thorfinn likes the song, but I find it pretty abominable, even beyond its racial connotations. It is a song written by a woman celebrating the killing of men, for feelz.

  41. @Priss Factor
    @Thulean Friend


    I am less concerned about white wombs than I am about white men who allow that shit to happen.
     
    What can white men do? White women are liberated and can do as they please. As their music is rap and hip hop, this is how they act. And their boomer fathers grew up to rock and roll, and their white boyfriends(that is, if they are white) are a bunch of cuckish fans of rap music and black sports.

    It used to be that to-have-power meant you had control over your urges.
    Now, 'empowerment' means to give in to your urges.

    Loss of self-control in favor of more pleasure. It's the empowerment of junkies who gotta have drugs.

    Replies: @Thulean Friend

    What can white men do?

    Saying no for a start. Not having a defeatist attitude that nothing can be done. None of this is inevitable or a given. Social norms are a constant negotiation and a contest of willpower, ultimately.

    And their boomer fathers grew up to rock and roll, and their white boyfriends(if they are white) are a bunch of cuckish fans of rap music and black sports.

    You’re making my point for me. The rot is just as deep with white men, if not deeper. Women just imitate men in their vincinity, whether fathers, brothers, boyfriends, classmates etc. Do you think that Jewish Orthodox women act the way they act because they are special women in some way? They act the way they act because of jewish orthodox men imposing their will.

    White men have been so pussywhipped that acting as men, and being unapologetic about male authority, is seen as inconceivable, even unfathomamable.

    • Replies: @Priss Factor
    @Thulean Friend

    White girls probably wouldn't act that way IF white guys beat blacks in sports or could sing louder.

    In a free society, people gravitate to what excites them. As blacks holler loudest and run fastest, they dominate pop music and sports, both of which are strong in sexual content.

    The only way to stop the current trend is to end freedom and impose iron rule UNTIL blacks are removed from white spaces. And then, freedom can be restored.

    As long as you have freedom and lots of blacks, blacks will dominate sports and jungle music, and too many whites will become jungle junkies.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @melanf

  42. @Priss Factor
    Jungle Fever and Afro-Colonization of White Wombs will be the undoing of the white race.

    These are affluent college educated girls.

    https://twitter.com/PrisonPlanet/status/1172572006769991680

    Replies: @Thulean Friend, @Anonymoose, @Abelard Lindsey, @Epigon

    Speaking of PJW

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Anonymoose

    Reminds me of this:
    https://www.theguardian.pe.ca/news/world/gay-chemsex-is-fuelling-urban-hiv-epidemics-aids-experts-warn-351482/

    and this (warning, it's seriously unpleasant):
    https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/aug/23/i-had-an-erection-for-three-weeks-experience

    Replies: @Anonymoose, @Yevardian

  43. @reiner Tor
    The Houthi (?) attack on the Saudi oil infrastructure is something which still needs time to assess its impact.

    Replies: @Abelard Lindsey, @AnonFromTN, @neutral

    I don’t know about an immediate impact on business or oil prices. I think that was intended as a message to the Empire and its sidekicks in the region: a demonstration that everything in the neighborhood, including huge American bases and aircraft carrier groups, is in range. We’ll see whether intended recipients of this message learn the lesson the easy way, or will learn it only the hard way, with immense loss of face.

  44. @Anonymoose
    @Priss Factor

    Speaking of PJW

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D84nwxkW4AImOi0.png

    Replies: @German_reader

    • Replies: @Anonymoose
    @German_reader

    That article is surprisingly honest about the epidemic of HIV in gay communities if unintentionally. Or will it get taken down before someone accuses it of perpetuating homophobic stereotypes. Also thanks for the second article, hilarious read ! Had a good laugh about its absurdity!

    , @Yevardian
    @German_reader

    Jesus Christ... had to stop before the end to puke.. thanks for the most disgusting thing I've read in a very long time.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

  45. @German_reader
    It looks like mass migration to Europe will escalate again. Erdogan is threatening to send a new refugee flood to Europe, and with Salvini gone in Italy, Italian ports will be open again for the African ferry service. France and Germany have accepted taking in 25% of the "refugees" each. Germany's minister of the interior Seehofer is a lying piece of shit as usual and claims this won't really increase number of asylum seekers (lol).
    And since some commenters here always get agitated about my hostile stance towards contemporary Christians, I'll link to this story about what Germany's main body of Protestants is up to (not that the Catholics are any better):
    https://www.dw.com/en/germanys-protestant-church-to-send-rescue-ship-to-mediterranean/a-50407182

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @songbird, @AnonFromTN, @Dmitry, @anon

    So, you Germans let the state apparatus, several political parties, and both large “Christian” denominations be taken over by cucks. A few East Germans I know are vehemently against Merkel’s suicidal immigration policy. They don’t believe in any gods, either. Maybe that’s the way to save Germany?

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @AnonFromTN


    A few East Germans I know are vehemently against Merkel’s suicidal immigration policy. They don’t believe in any gods, either.
     
    That's definitely a factor among some East Germans who are irreligious and have no patience for the positive view of Islam shoved down our throats by the establishment, not least prominent Christian Democrats (e.g. Christian Wulff, president 2010-2012, spent most of his time promoting Islam...when he commemorated the Berlin wall, you could get the impression the worst thing about it was that there was no Muslim immigration to the GDR...Merkel's 2015 decision didn't come out of nowhere).
    I'm not in favour of right-wingers adopting an explicitly anti-Christian stance, but given the policies they're actively pushing the Christian churches in Germany imo will be increasingly discredited among large parts of the population. They're both shedding members like mad, hundreds of thousands each year through death or formally leaving the church. The Catholics of course have their global church, but the Lutherans won't be much more than a sect in 20 years, but unfortunately they can do a lot of damage given their privileged position in the German state.
    , @songbird
    @AnonFromTN

    I find it hard to blame Germans because they were ground zero for anti-Nazism. And, truth be told, we all pretty much live in oligarchies.

    , @Anonymoose
    @AnonFromTN

    German Reader doesn't seem to be to fond of Christianity in general. East Germans are lucky in that their attitudes were preserved by the the Soviet freezer.

    Replies: @songbird

  46. German_reader says:
    @AnonFromTN
    @German_reader

    So, you Germans let the state apparatus, several political parties, and both large “Christian” denominations be taken over by cucks. A few East Germans I know are vehemently against Merkel’s suicidal immigration policy. They don’t believe in any gods, either. Maybe that’s the way to save Germany?

    Replies: @German_reader, @songbird, @Anonymoose

    A few East Germans I know are vehemently against Merkel’s suicidal immigration policy. They don’t believe in any gods, either.

    That’s definitely a factor among some East Germans who are irreligious and have no patience for the positive view of Islam shoved down our throats by the establishment, not least prominent Christian Democrats (e.g. Christian Wulff, president 2010-2012, spent most of his time promoting Islam…when he commemorated the Berlin wall, you could get the impression the worst thing about it was that there was no Muslim immigration to the GDR…Merkel’s 2015 decision didn’t come out of nowhere).
    I’m not in favour of right-wingers adopting an explicitly anti-Christian stance, but given the policies they’re actively pushing the Christian churches in Germany imo will be increasingly discredited among large parts of the population. They’re both shedding members like mad, hundreds of thousands each year through death or formally leaving the church. The Catholics of course have their global church, but the Lutherans won’t be much more than a sect in 20 years, but unfortunately they can do a lot of damage given their privileged position in the German state.

  47. @Thulean Friend
    @Priss Factor


    What can white men do?
     
    Saying no for a start. Not having a defeatist attitude that nothing can be done. None of this is inevitable or a given. Social norms are a constant negotiation and a contest of willpower, ultimately.

    And their boomer fathers grew up to rock and roll, and their white boyfriends(if they are white) are a bunch of cuckish fans of rap music and black sports.
     
    You're making my point for me. The rot is just as deep with white men, if not deeper. Women just imitate men in their vincinity, whether fathers, brothers, boyfriends, classmates etc. Do you think that Jewish Orthodox women act the way they act because they are special women in some way? They act the way they act because of jewish orthodox men imposing their will.

    White men have been so pussywhipped that acting as men, and being unapologetic about male authority, is seen as inconceivable, even unfathomamable.

    Replies: @Priss Factor

    White girls probably wouldn’t act that way IF white guys beat blacks in sports or could sing louder.

    In a free society, people gravitate to what excites them. As blacks holler loudest and run fastest, they dominate pop music and sports, both of which are strong in sexual content.

    The only way to stop the current trend is to end freedom and impose iron rule UNTIL blacks are removed from white spaces. And then, freedom can be restored.

    As long as you have freedom and lots of blacks, blacks will dominate sports and jungle music, and too many whites will become jungle junkies.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Priss Factor

    Lol but in Russia though, schoolgirls are twerking without any direct social contact of African Americans.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaUrff6EyT0


    -


    Although when idiotic young women of Novorossiysk distastefully filmed a video dancing in front of the war memorial on Malaya Zemlya, they were arrested and had to go to prison for 15 days for disrespect to the war memorial. (I think they only filmed in front of the war memorial, because it was one of the only grass parks in their city).

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_FnUwvzkuE

    Replies: @Anonymoose, @Anonymous, @Priss Factor, @Thulean Friend, @Bliss

    , @melanf
    @Priss Factor


    As long as you have freedom and lots of blacks, blacks will dominate sports and jungle music, and too many whites will become jungle junkies.
     
    If we are talking about the liberated behavior of different Schoolgirls, the African emigration has nothing to do with it. Girls tend to attract attention in any way, it is a genetic program.

    Here is ex-USSR where there are no blacks

    http://i.imgur.com/xKC1dWv.jpg

    https://negani.com/uploads/posts/2013-06/1372542445_4.jpg

    etc, etc

    There is nothing new in this

    https://img3.goodfon.ru/original/1024x768/d/a6/boilly-lyudi-igra-bilyard.jpg

    Or for example oficial portrait of Empress Elizabeth Petrovna

    https://icdn.lenta.ru/images/2019/08/23/18/20190823185134543/pic_521c2e603c89e1ce013d0916b95d4c6d.jpg

    Replies: @Thulean Friend, @neutral

  48. @AnonFromTN
    @German_reader

    So, you Germans let the state apparatus, several political parties, and both large “Christian” denominations be taken over by cucks. A few East Germans I know are vehemently against Merkel’s suicidal immigration policy. They don’t believe in any gods, either. Maybe that’s the way to save Germany?

    Replies: @German_reader, @songbird, @Anonymoose

    I find it hard to blame Germans because they were ground zero for anti-Nazism. And, truth be told, we all pretty much live in oligarchies.

  49. @AnonFromTN
    @German_reader

    So, you Germans let the state apparatus, several political parties, and both large “Christian” denominations be taken over by cucks. A few East Germans I know are vehemently against Merkel’s suicidal immigration policy. They don’t believe in any gods, either. Maybe that’s the way to save Germany?

    Replies: @German_reader, @songbird, @Anonymoose

    German Reader doesn’t seem to be to fond of Christianity in general. East Germans are lucky in that their attitudes were preserved by the the Soviet freezer.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @Anonymoose

    I like freezer theory, but does it really work as well for the DDR? Most of the country got Western TV for a while.

    And besides, I think it is more complicated than that: communism sows distrust in the system. And then also, Eastern Germany is demographically different, despite Berlin, and demography influences culture. I wonder too, if the more cosmopolitan weren't likelier to go West. And what is the average age? Could be older.

    Replies: @Hyperborean

  50. @German_reader
    @Anonymoose

    Reminds me of this:
    https://www.theguardian.pe.ca/news/world/gay-chemsex-is-fuelling-urban-hiv-epidemics-aids-experts-warn-351482/

    and this (warning, it's seriously unpleasant):
    https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/aug/23/i-had-an-erection-for-three-weeks-experience

    Replies: @Anonymoose, @Yevardian

    That article is surprisingly honest about the epidemic of HIV in gay communities if unintentionally. Or will it get taken down before someone accuses it of perpetuating homophobic stereotypes. Also thanks for the second article, hilarious read ! Had a good laugh about its absurdity!

  51. @reiner Tor
    The Houthi (?) attack on the Saudi oil infrastructure is something which still needs time to assess its impact.

    Replies: @Abelard Lindsey, @AnonFromTN, @neutral

    The one impact is clear, the days of the US run so called “war” are over, I say “war” because bombing helpless opponents from the air is not a real war. The cheap access to drones means that all that expensive hardware Saudi Arabia has not given the automatic dominance in the war.

    I hope that the Houthis can start assassinating the Saudi royals with drone strikes (even better however would be the locals taking them out however), once those rotters are gone then Israel will have lost another loyal cuck state.

  52. @Priss Factor
    Jungle Fever and Afro-Colonization of White Wombs will be the undoing of the white race.

    These are affluent college educated girls.

    https://twitter.com/PrisonPlanet/status/1172572006769991680

    Replies: @Thulean Friend, @Anonymoose, @Abelard Lindsey, @Epigon

    Has it ever occurred to any of these ladies in the video that they are acting essentially like animals?

  53. @Anonymoose
    @AnonFromTN

    German Reader doesn't seem to be to fond of Christianity in general. East Germans are lucky in that their attitudes were preserved by the the Soviet freezer.

    Replies: @songbird

    I like freezer theory, but does it really work as well for the DDR? Most of the country got Western TV for a while.

    And besides, I think it is more complicated than that: communism sows distrust in the system. And then also, Eastern Germany is demographically different, despite Berlin, and demography influences culture. I wonder too, if the more cosmopolitan weren’t likelier to go West. And what is the average age? Could be older.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    @songbird


    I like freezer theory, but does it really work as well for the DDR? Most of the country got Western TV for a while.
     
    There were reportages in German media during the short-lived PEGIDA marches (IIRC) in Saxony about DDR-era "the valley of the clueless" which were the only part of the country where transmissions from West Berlin didn’t reach.

    The fact that Saxony has turned from a "Red" area to the most "reactionary" part of Germany would seem to corroborate the theory.

    Replies: @German_reader, @songbird, @Matra

  54. @Anonymoose
    @Thulean Friend

    No need to be a boomer to think that. It does look disgusting. What the hell is it made from?

    Replies: @inertial

    I like fried minced meat as much as the next guy but it’s far more disgusting when you think about it. Dairy and eggs too.

    • Replies: @Epigon
    @inertial

    What’s disgusting about meat, eggs and dairy?

    Processed food is junk, there are no exceptions. The ingredients and manufacture are optimised for profit, has low nutritional value and high calorie content.

    Fresh animal protein is the best, combined with fresh fruit and vegetables.

    , @Kent Nationalist
    @inertial

    Peak deracination

    Replies: @inertial

  55. @Priss Factor
    @Thulean Friend

    White girls probably wouldn't act that way IF white guys beat blacks in sports or could sing louder.

    In a free society, people gravitate to what excites them. As blacks holler loudest and run fastest, they dominate pop music and sports, both of which are strong in sexual content.

    The only way to stop the current trend is to end freedom and impose iron rule UNTIL blacks are removed from white spaces. And then, freedom can be restored.

    As long as you have freedom and lots of blacks, blacks will dominate sports and jungle music, and too many whites will become jungle junkies.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @melanf

    Lol but in Russia though, schoolgirls are twerking without any direct social contact of African Americans.

    Although when idiotic young women of Novorossiysk distastefully filmed a video dancing in front of the war memorial on Malaya Zemlya, they were arrested and had to go to prison for 15 days for disrespect to the war memorial. (I think they only filmed in front of the war memorial, because it was one of the only grass parks in their city).

    • Replies: @Anonymoose
    @Dmitry

    They don't need to be in contact with negroes. They see this shit on TV and on the internet and then decide to copy it because its 'cool' and 'popular'.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    , @Anonymous
    @Dmitry

    This video was making the 4chan rounds a few years ago

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rba9Z0CcWwQ

    A lot of this stuff (twerk classes, pole dancing/"stipper-obics") is marketed as exercise (which I'm sure it is). There is no great Jewish conspiracy here: women like to dance, they like to feel sexual and they want to do it in an environment that feels "safe" (i.e., only other women around). And for every one internet moral crusader disgusted by this behavior there's about 1000 other guys who are turned on by it.

    Replies: @anon, @Rosie, @Epigon

    , @Priss Factor
    @Dmitry

    whole world is a colony of globo-homo-schlomo-afro America.

    , @Thulean Friend
    @Dmitry


    but in Russia though, schoolgirls are twerking without any direct social contact of African Americans.
     
    And why would they need any direct social contract. I clicked on your link and found these two as recommendations:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fW3fBHO76XA

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gL5zzIkrXMc

    These are talent shows with tens of millions of views with a huge upvote share. Russian society is sexually permissive and Russian men allow their women to act like glorified hookers on national TV. I'm not saying we are better, we clearly aren't, but in this regard Russia is not any different from the West. And my point is that this is not an automatic rule. I don't buy the whole "lol girls just wanna have fun" excuse. This kind of shit is promoted nonstop in the media. It didn't happen organically. More importantly, the men allow it to happen. You have even seen that kind of justification in this thread.

    The same kind of culture is beamed into other parts of the non-white world, but there men impose a social cost to acting like this. In Russia you can get on talent shows acting like a whore. This is a social choice by the men of their respective societies and let's not pretend otherwise.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Brutis, @Dmitry

    , @Bliss
    @Dmitry

    All these twerking saqaliba (google it) girls are probably auditioning for jobs in Dubai.

    Btw, it is funny to see the incel dorks here (like prissy) acting all moral over it, lol. As if this is any different than the “high culture” of Europe: just look at ballet and ice dancing for example. What’s with the ballerinas and skaters lifting one leg sky high exposing their vaginas for all to stare at? That’s what French prostitutes have been doing for centuries to attract customers. There is an arab account of Frankish whores doing exactly that in front of crowds of crusaders in the Holy Land they had conquered.

    Replies: @neutral

  56. I have Amazon Prime. I even watched the video channel recently. They have a new subtitled Russian series available, золотая орда. It’s very good for learners. The speaking is slow and deliberate. I think it is an attempt at majestic but it makes everything easy to follow. As usual, subtitles are not literal translations but help a lot. It is a marvellous exercise in perfective verbs. The characters are all reporting past events or plotting the future.

    The film doesn’t claim historical accuracy. It is a Russian nationalist, especially Orthodox, narrative. The crowd and battle scenes are low budget. It is mostly intrigue. I guess the Russian TV audience is as feminised as in the US.

    • Replies: @Gerard1234
    @Philip Owen


    I guess the Russian TV audience is as feminised as in the US.
     
    Probably more gays/extremely camp people on Russian tv, than there is on US tv.
  57. @Dmitry
    @Priss Factor

    Lol but in Russia though, schoolgirls are twerking without any direct social contact of African Americans.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaUrff6EyT0


    -


    Although when idiotic young women of Novorossiysk distastefully filmed a video dancing in front of the war memorial on Malaya Zemlya, they were arrested and had to go to prison for 15 days for disrespect to the war memorial. (I think they only filmed in front of the war memorial, because it was one of the only grass parks in their city).

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_FnUwvzkuE

    Replies: @Anonymoose, @Anonymous, @Priss Factor, @Thulean Friend, @Bliss

    They don’t need to be in contact with negroes. They see this shit on TV and on the internet and then decide to copy it because its ‘cool’ and ‘popular’.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Anonymoose

    You can say it is the responsibility of African Americans for the inelegant particular form, but not for the content or reason for its popularity (girls want a reaction).

    Twerking is just lowest common denominator and inelegant way for girls to attract attention to their bodies.

    But there are equally non-African dancing styles which can express the same content. E.g. a local fashion for pole dancing studios with high heels

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTu3jBxDtI4

  58. @songbird
    @Thulean Friend

    White South Africans are an interesting group. For once, I am going to agree with Bliss, and say that you can often see the non-white admixture in their faces. It is kind of startling to think about: most of the time it is a low amount like 2-3%, and a mix at that (Malay, Bushmen, and Bantu), but I swear, you still can often see it. Like take a good look at five men, and you will see it in at least one. Maybe, these people are a higher percentage admixture?

    But I concur in general: they are at least politically white, if not fully European. And it is utterly amazing how South African expats who have had friends raped and killed, who say they are never going back, and are vocally grim on the country's prospects, often repeat mainline rhetoric about discrimination being wrong, or even Orania being wrong. Or the Boers being racists.

    Same lesson regarding America. Americans are just Europeans in North America, though many Europeans would like to think differently. In fact, Americans might be better situated, being further from Africa. Some think that America had no culture, and that is why it was susceptible. This is an error: it did have one.

    Replies: @German_reader, @neutral, @Gerard1234

    you can often see the non-white admixture in their faces

    The Afrikaners are not the only whites in South Africa, they were the earliest settlers and had some significant miscegenation at the beginning. However the non Afrikaner groups are about 40% of the whites and you will not be able to tell if they are from South Africa, America or where the place their ancestors are from (mostly Britain, Germany, former Portuguese colonies).

    As for the the dominance of liberalism, despite the impossibility of denying the racial realities of black run societies, this is absolutely true. The pop culture that Hollywood churns out is just as consumed and taken seriously as it is in most other formerly white lands, so is the neoliberal ideology of The Economist taken as gospel by the business elite. Then there is the very strong fear factor, talking about race is very dangerous, even with the closest of friends. Even if one does not sincerely believe in liberal theologies, the risk of going against it is so great that most will just accept it.

  59. “like animals” (the pelvic cadence in the video)

    Agree. Like animals. The cadence is much too fast for humans. The proper pelvic cadence is much more meticulous, fastidious. A metaphor.
    BTW, the proper chest-compression cadence for CPR is 100 per minute. This is achieved by thinking of the song “Stayin’ Alive,” which has exactly that cadence. CPR trainers teach this cadence tool, and outcome studies validate its merit.

  60. Who needs carriers? Who even needs anti-tank missiles. It’s the age of the drone. Soon, the drone swarm. 5 years ago, I was dealing with drones with enough on board intelligence to recognize a building, find an entrance and explore, a without control signals. One high speed burst of data at the end of the mission. Could deliver poison gas, of course. This was a civilian drone that the developers wanted to sell in Russia. We found them a software developer ready to set them up as a network of search and WiFi deployment devices for the Ministry of Emergency Situations. Then Russia annexed Crimea. End of story.

    A drone swarm with nerve gas could be a substantial weapon. Should ‘large ships be stationed in Bahrain?

    It should be noted that the Extinction Emergency protestors attempt to shut down Heathrow airport with drones failed. Their drones were jammed and fell out of the sky. They were reduced to holding drones above their heads War drones need to be autonomous.

    Reconnaissance drones are already smaller than a humming bird.

  61. @Priss Factor
    Jungle Fever and Afro-Colonization of White Wombs will be the undoing of the white race.

    These are affluent college educated girls.

    https://twitter.com/PrisonPlanet/status/1172572006769991680

    Replies: @Thulean Friend, @Anonymoose, @Abelard Lindsey, @Epigon

    This isn’t USA, no goblinas, orcs and Uruks are present.
    Besides, there are actual stunners present, and most of thots have no cellulite and are toned unlike US flabby, skinnyfat girls. The video was posted to ridicule them whyte wymen, because they fail compared to ghetto rat “artists” of the “craft” of twerking.

    It is apparently Ukraine, Odessa.

    As much as I would enjoy the company of several of those blondies, witnessing this behaviour kills any desire to interact with them. Twerking is disgusting on so many levels, animals in heat act with more dignity.

    • Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous
    @Epigon


    As much as I would enjoy the company of several of those blondies, witnessing this behaviour kills any desire to interact with them. Twerking is disgusting on so many levels, animals in heat act with more dignity.

     

    You should consider the disgust you feel to be a good thing. It kills any naive or careless delusions that so many men have as far as women are concerned.

    It's always easy to forget, but the only real value of women (besides family or professional reasons) lies in casual sex or family formation (cleaning or basic service functions included as well). You can guess for yourself as to what purpose these women are good for.

    Replies: @Rosie

  62. @inertial
    @Anonymoose

    I like fried minced meat as much as the next guy but it's far more disgusting when you think about it. Dairy and eggs too.

    Replies: @Epigon, @Kent Nationalist

    What’s disgusting about meat, eggs and dairy?

    Processed food is junk, there are no exceptions. The ingredients and manufacture are optimised for profit, has low nutritional value and high calorie content.

    Fresh animal protein is the best, combined with fresh fruit and vegetables.

  63. With Oumuamua, people were speculating that interstellar comets were a physical impossibility – that the volatiles would completely boil off during the long journey.

    Therefore, this new one is an interesting find. I wonder if it fits into the idea of panspermia.

  64. @Anonymoose
    @Dmitry

    They don't need to be in contact with negroes. They see this shit on TV and on the internet and then decide to copy it because its 'cool' and 'popular'.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    You can say it is the responsibility of African Americans for the inelegant particular form, but not for the content or reason for its popularity (girls want a reaction).

    Twerking is just lowest common denominator and inelegant way for girls to attract attention to their bodies.

    But there are equally non-African dancing styles which can express the same content. E.g. a local fashion for pole dancing studios with high heels

  65. @German_reader
    It looks like mass migration to Europe will escalate again. Erdogan is threatening to send a new refugee flood to Europe, and with Salvini gone in Italy, Italian ports will be open again for the African ferry service. France and Germany have accepted taking in 25% of the "refugees" each. Germany's minister of the interior Seehofer is a lying piece of shit as usual and claims this won't really increase number of asylum seekers (lol).
    And since some commenters here always get agitated about my hostile stance towards contemporary Christians, I'll link to this story about what Germany's main body of Protestants is up to (not that the Catholics are any better):
    https://www.dw.com/en/germanys-protestant-church-to-send-rescue-ship-to-mediterranean/a-50407182

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @songbird, @AnonFromTN, @Dmitry, @anon

    Salvini gone in Italy, Italian ports will be open again

    It was already starting to break in June, if you remember Sea-Watch 3 (where the judge had supported the captain):

    Captain who broke Italy’s migrant ban says ready to rescue more people at sea, raps EU

    A German captain who defied Italy’s ban on boats bringing migrants ashore said on Tuesday she was determined to carry on rescuing migrants from the Mediterranean, even though her ship Sea-Watch 3 remains impounded in an Italian port.

    Carola Rackete, in Barcelona to receive an award from the Catalan parliament for her rescue missions, also urged the European Union to agree on a policy for redistributing migrants around the bloc to help relieve the pressure on Italy.

    “We are definitely willing (to continue rescuing migrants) and there’s a full crew on board ready to sail at any point … I think it’s a very, very important duty to rescue people in maritime distress,” Rackete, 31, told Reuters.

    Sea-Watch 3 is currently detained in the Italian port of Lucata. In June, Rackete piloted the vessel into port on the Italian island of Lampedusa with 41 migrants aboard despite efforts by the then-interior minister Matteo Salvini, leader of the far-right League, to stop her.

  66. @songbird
    @Anonymoose

    I like freezer theory, but does it really work as well for the DDR? Most of the country got Western TV for a while.

    And besides, I think it is more complicated than that: communism sows distrust in the system. And then also, Eastern Germany is demographically different, despite Berlin, and demography influences culture. I wonder too, if the more cosmopolitan weren't likelier to go West. And what is the average age? Could be older.

    Replies: @Hyperborean

    I like freezer theory, but does it really work as well for the DDR? Most of the country got Western TV for a while.

    There were reportages in German media during the short-lived PEGIDA marches (IIRC) in Saxony about DDR-era “the valley of the clueless” which were the only part of the country where transmissions from West Berlin didn’t reach.

    The fact that Saxony has turned from a “Red” area to the most “reactionary” part of Germany would seem to corroborate the theory.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Hyperborean

    AfD does well throughout the former East Germany, the focus on "the valley of the clueless" was just a special form of the Ossie-bashing beloved by mainstream journalists ("Hahaha, look how ignorant those people are! Never learned democracy, didn't have bananas to eat, were economic refugees in 1990 and now they're hating other refugees!").
    Pegida btw wasn't short-lived, it still exists (though on a much reduced scale)...in any case, it was remarkably prescient in 2014.
    Real question imo shouldn't be however what's so special about East Germans, but rather, what the hell is wrong with West Germans (and many others in Western Europe)? How much shit does one need to have in the head to believe that inviting millions of Muslims and Africans to Europe is a good idea?

    Replies: @Hyperborean, @AnonFromTN

    , @songbird
    @Hyperborean

    Saxony is very rural though isn't it? (maybe, someone with better knowledge of German geography than me could chime in...) If there is a difference, it could be rural/urban.

    Plus, German media is an abominable combination of fluff, lies, and propaganda. Personally, I would banish anyone associated with DW to Africa, without a second thought.

    Hard to separate these different factors.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

    , @Matra
    @Hyperborean

    I read somewhere that Merkel's decision to welcome over a million refugees was a panicky reaction to the PEGIDA demonstrations.

  67. German_reader says:
    @Hyperborean
    @songbird


    I like freezer theory, but does it really work as well for the DDR? Most of the country got Western TV for a while.
     
    There were reportages in German media during the short-lived PEGIDA marches (IIRC) in Saxony about DDR-era "the valley of the clueless" which were the only part of the country where transmissions from West Berlin didn’t reach.

    The fact that Saxony has turned from a "Red" area to the most "reactionary" part of Germany would seem to corroborate the theory.

    Replies: @German_reader, @songbird, @Matra

    AfD does well throughout the former East Germany, the focus on “the valley of the clueless” was just a special form of the Ossie-bashing beloved by mainstream journalists (“Hahaha, look how ignorant those people are! Never learned democracy, didn’t have bananas to eat, were economic refugees in 1990 and now they’re hating other refugees!”).
    Pegida btw wasn’t short-lived, it still exists (though on a much reduced scale)…in any case, it was remarkably prescient in 2014.
    Real question imo shouldn’t be however what’s so special about East Germans, but rather, what the hell is wrong with West Germans (and many others in Western Europe)? How much shit does one need to have in the head to believe that inviting millions of Muslims and Africans to Europe is a good idea?

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    @German_reader


    AfD does well throughout the former East Germany, the focus on “the valley of the clueless” was just a special form of the Ossie-bashing beloved by mainstream journalists

     

    My impression based on older electoral maps was that Saxony was their stronghold.

    https://cn.bing.com/th?id=OIP.hbwnN2m7n2CBKVGn7DPhngHaKg&pid=Api&dpr=2.75

    https://cn.bing.com/th?id=OIP.HH965Lj5vt85AwpijjxdewHaIR&pid=Api&dpr=2.75

    But it seems as if they are spreading into Thuringia and southern Saxony-Anhalt and parts of Brandenburg as well recently.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/53/Europawahl_2019_in_Deutschland_%E2%80%93_Vorl%C3%A4ufiges_Ergebnis_der_AfD_%28%25%29.svg/896px-Europawahl_2019_in_Deutschland_%E2%80%93_Vorl%C3%A4ufiges_Ergebnis_der_AfD_%28%25%29.svg.png

    Real question imo shouldn’t be however what’s so special about East Germans, but rather, what the hell is wrong with West Germans (and many others in Western Europe)? How much shit does one need to have in the head to believe that inviting millions of Muslims and Africans to Europe is a good idea?
     
    From my subjective experience it seems that there are people who realise that everything is going downhills and that changes need to be made. Yet very few of them dare to think about "forbidden" solutions that go against what they are taught - which ends up in them floundering.
    , @AnonFromTN
    @German_reader


    How much shit does one need to have in the head to believe that inviting millions of Muslims and Africans to Europe is a good idea?
     
    Apparently, the heads of too many Germans are full of shit. Interestingly enough, shitheads are more common in the “democratic” West than in the “undemocratic” East. Tells you a lot about current version of “democracy”.
  68. @Hyperborean
    @songbird


    I like freezer theory, but does it really work as well for the DDR? Most of the country got Western TV for a while.
     
    There were reportages in German media during the short-lived PEGIDA marches (IIRC) in Saxony about DDR-era "the valley of the clueless" which were the only part of the country where transmissions from West Berlin didn’t reach.

    The fact that Saxony has turned from a "Red" area to the most "reactionary" part of Germany would seem to corroborate the theory.

    Replies: @German_reader, @songbird, @Matra

    Saxony is very rural though isn’t it? (maybe, someone with better knowledge of German geography than me could chime in…) If there is a difference, it could be rural/urban.

    Plus, German media is an abominable combination of fluff, lies, and propaganda. Personally, I would banish anyone associated with DW to Africa, without a second thought.

    Hard to separate these different factors.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    @songbird

    Saxony has two large cities, Leipzig and Dresden. So, it is not rural. It just shows that cuckishness was promoted by “democracies” long before 1991.


    Plus, German media is an abominable combination of fluff, lies, and propaganda.
     
    Isn’t all Western MSM exactly like that? Say, American MSM output is 90% lies and 10% truth twisted beyond recognition.

    Replies: @songbird

  69. @Hyperborean
    @songbird


    I like freezer theory, but does it really work as well for the DDR? Most of the country got Western TV for a while.
     
    There were reportages in German media during the short-lived PEGIDA marches (IIRC) in Saxony about DDR-era "the valley of the clueless" which were the only part of the country where transmissions from West Berlin didn’t reach.

    The fact that Saxony has turned from a "Red" area to the most "reactionary" part of Germany would seem to corroborate the theory.

    Replies: @German_reader, @songbird, @Matra

    I read somewhere that Merkel’s decision to welcome over a million refugees was a panicky reaction to the PEGIDA demonstrations.

  70. yakushimaru says:
    September 10, 2019 at 4:32 am GMT
    @Godfree Roberts
    “I’m dumbstriken.

    You know I am Chinese living in China. I can’t say I ever met a single Chinese who loves Mao half as you do.”

    yakushimaru either lives in a cave with no access to Internets or doesn’t live in China at all…

    A few years ago, a video was posted on Chinese Internets showing a favorite TV talent show host insulted Mao at a private gathering. The outages it ensued was mind boggling, never mind how popular he had been as a TV star. And he end up getting fired… There’s no way a “Chinese living in China” with access to Internets doesn’t know this incident, it was huge.

    I suspect that video was leaked to run an unofficial “poll” on opinions of Mao by the top level CCP . “Who do you love more, a darling TV star or Mao?” And the people have spoken…

  71. Speaking of WW2, I was thinking recently of the Potsdam Declaration, which included this line: “we do not intend that the Japanese shall be enslaved as a race or destroyed as a nation…”

  72. @German_reader
    @Hyperborean

    AfD does well throughout the former East Germany, the focus on "the valley of the clueless" was just a special form of the Ossie-bashing beloved by mainstream journalists ("Hahaha, look how ignorant those people are! Never learned democracy, didn't have bananas to eat, were economic refugees in 1990 and now they're hating other refugees!").
    Pegida btw wasn't short-lived, it still exists (though on a much reduced scale)...in any case, it was remarkably prescient in 2014.
    Real question imo shouldn't be however what's so special about East Germans, but rather, what the hell is wrong with West Germans (and many others in Western Europe)? How much shit does one need to have in the head to believe that inviting millions of Muslims and Africans to Europe is a good idea?

    Replies: @Hyperborean, @AnonFromTN

    AfD does well throughout the former East Germany, the focus on “the valley of the clueless” was just a special form of the Ossie-bashing beloved by mainstream journalists

    My impression based on older electoral maps was that Saxony was their stronghold.

    https://cn.bing.com/th?id=OIP.hbwnN2m7n2CBKVGn7DPhngHaKg&pid=Api&dpr=2.75

    https://cn.bing.com/th?id=OIP.HH965Lj5vt85AwpijjxdewHaIR&pid=Api&dpr=2.75

    But it seems as if they are spreading into Thuringia and southern Saxony-Anhalt and parts of Brandenburg as well recently.

    Real question imo shouldn’t be however what’s so special about East Germans, but rather, what the hell is wrong with West Germans (and many others in Western Europe)? How much shit does one need to have in the head to believe that inviting millions of Muslims and Africans to Europe is a good idea?

    From my subjective experience it seems that there are people who realise that everything is going downhills and that changes need to be made. Yet very few of them dare to think about “forbidden” solutions that go against what they are taught – which ends up in them floundering.

  73. @German_reader
    It looks like mass migration to Europe will escalate again. Erdogan is threatening to send a new refugee flood to Europe, and with Salvini gone in Italy, Italian ports will be open again for the African ferry service. France and Germany have accepted taking in 25% of the "refugees" each. Germany's minister of the interior Seehofer is a lying piece of shit as usual and claims this won't really increase number of asylum seekers (lol).
    And since some commenters here always get agitated about my hostile stance towards contemporary Christians, I'll link to this story about what Germany's main body of Protestants is up to (not that the Catholics are any better):
    https://www.dw.com/en/germanys-protestant-church-to-send-rescue-ship-to-mediterranean/a-50407182

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @songbird, @AnonFromTN, @Dmitry, @anon

    It never stopped, around 10 000 at minimum entered just via Bosnia&Herzegovina, i would say it’s at least 20 000, because government here lies about that stuff.

    Now it’s just gonna get on intensity again. But i wouldn’t count Erdogan words too much, it probably will be few thousands more per year. Med route tho. Especially with all those Scandinavians virtue signaling with those ships.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @anon


    Especially with all those Scandinavians virtue signaling with those ships.
     
    Probably more Germans than Scandinavians. These open borders ngos (which are quite explicit about their intentions, it really is about opening Europe to potentially unlimited mass immigration, with global freedom of movement seen as a human right) have the support of much of the establishment here, president Steinmeier has spoken in their support ("saving people can't be a crime"), the churches support them, prominent Christian Democrats as well (the minister president of North-Rhine-Westphalia, the most populous German state, Armin Laschet, a possible Merkel successor, recently called Salvini a Hetzer, a rabble-rouser, an enemy of the refugees). There's now also a movement by dozens of towns and cities which have declared their willingness to take in additional "refugees" and are lobbying for transportation of Africans taken up in the Mediterranean to Europe.
    Even worse, they're still pushing for the idea that there needs to be a "fair" distribution of "refugees" throughout the EU. The hubris is stunning.

    Replies: @anon

  74. @Epigon
    @Priss Factor

    This isn’t USA, no goblinas, orcs and Uruks are present.
    Besides, there are actual stunners present, and most of thots have no cellulite and are toned unlike US flabby, skinnyfat girls. The video was posted to ridicule them whyte wymen, because they fail compared to ghetto rat “artists” of the “craft” of twerking.

    It is apparently Ukraine, Odessa.

    As much as I would enjoy the company of several of those blondies, witnessing this behaviour kills any desire to interact with them. Twerking is disgusting on so many levels, animals in heat act with more dignity.

    Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous

    As much as I would enjoy the company of several of those blondies, witnessing this behaviour kills any desire to interact with them. Twerking is disgusting on so many levels, animals in heat act with more dignity.

    You should consider the disgust you feel to be a good thing. It kills any naive or careless delusions that so many men have as far as women are concerned.

    It’s always easy to forget, but the only real value of women (besides family or professional reasons) lies in casual sex or family formation (cleaning or basic service functions included as well). You can guess for yourself as to what purpose these women are good for.

    • Replies: @Rosie
    @TheTotallyAnonymous


    You should consider the disgust you feel to be a good thing. It kills any naive or careless delusions that so many men have as far as women are concerned.
     
    This is why I always say you disgusting manosphere creeps are the ugly mirror image of feminists, only worse. Feminists define men according to their behavior at their worst, ignoring all the good they do and are.

    Feminists are far more gracious to men, though. They condemn only learned toxic masculinity (like yours) rather than concoct bogus theories of men's innate wickedness.

    Replies: @The Big Red Scary, @Epigon, @anonymous coward, @TheTotallyAnonymous, @Kent Nationalist

  75. German_reader says:
    @anon
    @German_reader

    It never stopped, around 10 000 at minimum entered just via Bosnia&Herzegovina, i would say it's at least 20 000, because government here lies about that stuff.

    Now it's just gonna get on intensity again. But i wouldn't count Erdogan words too much, it probably will be few thousands more per year. Med route tho. Especially with all those Scandinavians virtue signaling with those ships.

    Replies: @German_reader

    Especially with all those Scandinavians virtue signaling with those ships.

    Probably more Germans than Scandinavians. These open borders ngos (which are quite explicit about their intentions, it really is about opening Europe to potentially unlimited mass immigration, with global freedom of movement seen as a human right) have the support of much of the establishment here, president Steinmeier has spoken in their support (“saving people can’t be a crime”), the churches support them, prominent Christian Democrats as well (the minister president of North-Rhine-Westphalia, the most populous German state, Armin Laschet, a possible Merkel successor, recently called Salvini a Hetzer, a rabble-rouser, an enemy of the refugees). There’s now also a movement by dozens of towns and cities which have declared their willingness to take in additional “refugees” and are lobbying for transportation of Africans taken up in the Mediterranean to Europe.
    Even worse, they’re still pushing for the idea that there needs to be a “fair” distribution of “refugees” throughout the EU. The hubris is stunning.

    • Replies: @anon
    @German_reader

    Well, it's actually surprising how many such people actually exist on Balkans, but still it's all fueled by American dollars, and some EU grants. There's a NGO "Are you Syrious" located in Zagreb, and on facebook, they even posted materials on Arabic, Urdu and other Asiatic languages how to avoid border police, across Balkans. Incredible.

    Tutorial how to break a law, and nothing is done against them, which means that Zagreb obeys the west. Truth to be told Croatians are chasing those poor ones and sending them back to Bihać even using physical force, but those that can pay transit are passing unbothered. Which makes me think that German politicians are trying to filter who gets in.

  76. Anonymous[277] • Disclaimer says:
    @Dmitry
    @Priss Factor

    Lol but in Russia though, schoolgirls are twerking without any direct social contact of African Americans.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaUrff6EyT0


    -


    Although when idiotic young women of Novorossiysk distastefully filmed a video dancing in front of the war memorial on Malaya Zemlya, they were arrested and had to go to prison for 15 days for disrespect to the war memorial. (I think they only filmed in front of the war memorial, because it was one of the only grass parks in their city).

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_FnUwvzkuE

    Replies: @Anonymoose, @Anonymous, @Priss Factor, @Thulean Friend, @Bliss

    This video was making the 4chan rounds a few years ago

    A lot of this stuff (twerk classes, pole dancing/”stipper-obics”) is marketed as exercise (which I’m sure it is). There is no great Jewish conspiracy here: women like to dance, they like to feel sexual and they want to do it in an environment that feels “safe” (i.e., only other women around). And for every one internet moral crusader disgusted by this behavior there’s about 1000 other guys who are turned on by it.

    • Replies: @anon
    @Anonymous


    there’s about 1000 other dogs who are turned on by it
     
    , @Rosie
    @Anonymous


    There is no great Jewish conspiracy here: women like to dance, they like to feel sexual and they want to do it in an environment that feels “safe” (i.e., only other women around).
     
    Fact check: mostly true.

    Yes, we like to dance, ideally with other women. And yes, dancing is inherently sexual, but I don't think that proves there's no Jewish conspiracy. Gyms don't offer any dance classes that don't reflect the (((popular culture))).

    Replies: @The Big Red Scary, @Thulean Friend, @Anonymous

    , @Epigon
    @Anonymous


    A lot of this stuff (twerk classes, pole dancing/”stipper-obics”) is marketed as exercise (which I’m sure it is). There is no great Jewish conspiracy here: women like to dance, they like to feel sexual and they want to do it in an environment that feels “safe”
     
    Riiiight.
    This behaviour being in "women's nature", you think women 30, 50, 100, 200 years ago would approve of it and join in the fun?


    It's almost as if moral code, desired and acceptable behaviour are not dictated by women themselves... And that there is a concentrated push coming from certain circles and groups with the explicite goal of undermining European traditions and social norms.

    Replies: @Brutis, @Anonymous

  77. @Dmitry
    @Priss Factor

    Lol but in Russia though, schoolgirls are twerking without any direct social contact of African Americans.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaUrff6EyT0


    -


    Although when idiotic young women of Novorossiysk distastefully filmed a video dancing in front of the war memorial on Malaya Zemlya, they were arrested and had to go to prison for 15 days for disrespect to the war memorial. (I think they only filmed in front of the war memorial, because it was one of the only grass parks in their city).

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_FnUwvzkuE

    Replies: @Anonymoose, @Anonymous, @Priss Factor, @Thulean Friend, @Bliss

    whole world is a colony of globo-homo-schlomo-afro America.

  78. @German_reader
    @Hyperborean

    AfD does well throughout the former East Germany, the focus on "the valley of the clueless" was just a special form of the Ossie-bashing beloved by mainstream journalists ("Hahaha, look how ignorant those people are! Never learned democracy, didn't have bananas to eat, were economic refugees in 1990 and now they're hating other refugees!").
    Pegida btw wasn't short-lived, it still exists (though on a much reduced scale)...in any case, it was remarkably prescient in 2014.
    Real question imo shouldn't be however what's so special about East Germans, but rather, what the hell is wrong with West Germans (and many others in Western Europe)? How much shit does one need to have in the head to believe that inviting millions of Muslims and Africans to Europe is a good idea?

    Replies: @Hyperborean, @AnonFromTN

    How much shit does one need to have in the head to believe that inviting millions of Muslims and Africans to Europe is a good idea?

    Apparently, the heads of too many Germans are full of shit. Interestingly enough, shitheads are more common in the “democratic” West than in the “undemocratic” East. Tells you a lot about current version of “democracy”.

  79. @German_reader
    @reiner Tor


    From an accelerationist point of view, this is not entirely bad.
     
    I agree to some extent, it's just that I fear the majority in Germany will never wake up...the fanatics who are totally in favour of this project (at least 20-30% of the electorate) are beyond redemption anyway. But yes, the sooner it escalates, the better. The time for reasonable compromise is past anyway.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Anarcho-Supremacist

    Salvini was already going to win big time and now these latest actions are just going to increase his majority. They are almost giving it to him with their actions.

  80. @songbird
    @Hyperborean

    Saxony is very rural though isn't it? (maybe, someone with better knowledge of German geography than me could chime in...) If there is a difference, it could be rural/urban.

    Plus, German media is an abominable combination of fluff, lies, and propaganda. Personally, I would banish anyone associated with DW to Africa, without a second thought.

    Hard to separate these different factors.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

    Saxony has two large cities, Leipzig and Dresden. So, it is not rural. It just shows that cuckishness was promoted by “democracies” long before 1991.

    Plus, German media is an abominable combination of fluff, lies, and propaganda.

    Isn’t all Western MSM exactly like that? Say, American MSM output is 90% lies and 10% truth twisted beyond recognition.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @AnonFromTN


    Saxony has two large cities, Leipzig and Dresden. So, it is not rural.
     
    Only person I ever knew from Saxony was a farmer. Guess that is incident, and it is the North of Eastern Germany that is least populated - not what I would have expected by instinct.

    Isn’t all Western MSM exactly like that?
     
    Pretty much, but I am still disturbed by what I saw during Merkel's migrant invasion. Though, I guess it is not really even slightly different than US media coverage of the Southern border.
  81. Crazy how much people whine about interracial marriage. It’s a non problem, a few mutt faces will not ultimately do anything and the problem first and foremost in all the white countries of the world is first and foremost low birthrate among white couples. Once white folks start giving birth then we can start lynching the nogs, until then shut up.

  82. anon[173] • Disclaimer says:
    @German_reader
    @anon


    Especially with all those Scandinavians virtue signaling with those ships.
     
    Probably more Germans than Scandinavians. These open borders ngos (which are quite explicit about their intentions, it really is about opening Europe to potentially unlimited mass immigration, with global freedom of movement seen as a human right) have the support of much of the establishment here, president Steinmeier has spoken in their support ("saving people can't be a crime"), the churches support them, prominent Christian Democrats as well (the minister president of North-Rhine-Westphalia, the most populous German state, Armin Laschet, a possible Merkel successor, recently called Salvini a Hetzer, a rabble-rouser, an enemy of the refugees). There's now also a movement by dozens of towns and cities which have declared their willingness to take in additional "refugees" and are lobbying for transportation of Africans taken up in the Mediterranean to Europe.
    Even worse, they're still pushing for the idea that there needs to be a "fair" distribution of "refugees" throughout the EU. The hubris is stunning.

    Replies: @anon

    Well, it’s actually surprising how many such people actually exist on Balkans, but still it’s all fueled by American dollars, and some EU grants. There’s a NGO “Are you Syrious” located in Zagreb, and on facebook, they even posted materials on Arabic, Urdu and other Asiatic languages how to avoid border police, across Balkans. Incredible.

    Tutorial how to break a law, and nothing is done against them, which means that Zagreb obeys the west. Truth to be told Croatians are chasing those poor ones and sending them back to Bihać even using physical force, but those that can pay transit are passing unbothered. Which makes me think that German politicians are trying to filter who gets in.

  83. @Anonymous
    @Dmitry

    This video was making the 4chan rounds a few years ago

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rba9Z0CcWwQ

    A lot of this stuff (twerk classes, pole dancing/"stipper-obics") is marketed as exercise (which I'm sure it is). There is no great Jewish conspiracy here: women like to dance, they like to feel sexual and they want to do it in an environment that feels "safe" (i.e., only other women around). And for every one internet moral crusader disgusted by this behavior there's about 1000 other guys who are turned on by it.

    Replies: @anon, @Rosie, @Epigon

    there’s about 1000 other dogs who are turned on by it

  84. @AnonFromTN
    @songbird

    Saxony has two large cities, Leipzig and Dresden. So, it is not rural. It just shows that cuckishness was promoted by “democracies” long before 1991.


    Plus, German media is an abominable combination of fluff, lies, and propaganda.
     
    Isn’t all Western MSM exactly like that? Say, American MSM output is 90% lies and 10% truth twisted beyond recognition.

    Replies: @songbird

    Saxony has two large cities, Leipzig and Dresden. So, it is not rural.

    Only person I ever knew from Saxony was a farmer. Guess that is incident, and it is the North of Eastern Germany that is least populated – not what I would have expected by instinct.

    Isn’t all Western MSM exactly like that?

    Pretty much, but I am still disturbed by what I saw during Merkel’s migrant invasion. Though, I guess it is not really even slightly different than US media coverage of the Southern border.

  85. @songbird
    Can Trump even win a second term? I'm predicting no: demographic changes.

    I don't think there will be another Republican president, unless the franchise is restricted again, or part of the US secedes, and, despite the Reconquista rhetoric, I don't think Mexicans really want to rejoin Mexico.

    New Hampshire probably isn't a good indicator for the Dems. As a party, they've been hostile to NH having the first in the nation primary for a long time now.

    Replies: @davidgmillsatty

    The Democrats have the edge in popular vote. The Republicans have the edge in the Electoral College vote. And it will stay that way for a long time. The Democrats will get more and more urban giving them an edge in the popular vote. The Republicans will get more and more rural and suburban giving them an edge in the Electoral College vote.

    And the ability to change the Constitution to make the Electoral College reflect the popular vote is damn near impossible. So the Democrats will not take over. It might be the reverse.

  86. @Priss Factor
    @Thulean Friend

    White girls probably wouldn't act that way IF white guys beat blacks in sports or could sing louder.

    In a free society, people gravitate to what excites them. As blacks holler loudest and run fastest, they dominate pop music and sports, both of which are strong in sexual content.

    The only way to stop the current trend is to end freedom and impose iron rule UNTIL blacks are removed from white spaces. And then, freedom can be restored.

    As long as you have freedom and lots of blacks, blacks will dominate sports and jungle music, and too many whites will become jungle junkies.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @melanf

    As long as you have freedom and lots of blacks, blacks will dominate sports and jungle music, and too many whites will become jungle junkies.

    If we are talking about the liberated behavior of different Schoolgirls, the African emigration has nothing to do with it. Girls tend to attract attention in any way, it is a genetic program.

    Here is ex-USSR where there are no blacks

    etc, etc

    There is nothing new in this

    Or for example oficial portrait of Empress Elizabeth Petrovna

    • Replies: @Thulean Friend
    @melanf

    You're trying to cover the issue in fatalism. And it is quite interesting that a lot of Russian men in this thread have defended these social norms where whoredom is celebrated/normalised, or at least put up their hands in resignation. A society's women act the way they are allowed to by their men. Feminists are not wrong in this, which is why they obsess over men's attitudes.

    There is nothing automatic about dressing like a hooker, and it doesn't serve anyone trying to pretend otherwise. If men show permissive attitudes, women will take the cue. It's that simple. This is a social choice made by the men in that society and not taking a stand against something is also taking an implicit stand in favor of it, by allowing it to happen.

    Replies: @melanf

    , @neutral
    @melanf


    the African emigration has nothing to do with it.
     
    True, blacks have zero real control of the mass media/entertainment outlets. Jews on the other hand have near total dominance of all mass pop culture, things like twerking became an acceptable societal norm because jews made it so.
  87. @Dmitry
    @Priss Factor

    Lol but in Russia though, schoolgirls are twerking without any direct social contact of African Americans.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaUrff6EyT0


    -


    Although when idiotic young women of Novorossiysk distastefully filmed a video dancing in front of the war memorial on Malaya Zemlya, they were arrested and had to go to prison for 15 days for disrespect to the war memorial. (I think they only filmed in front of the war memorial, because it was one of the only grass parks in their city).

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_FnUwvzkuE

    Replies: @Anonymoose, @Anonymous, @Priss Factor, @Thulean Friend, @Bliss

    but in Russia though, schoolgirls are twerking without any direct social contact of African Americans.

    And why would they need any direct social contract. I clicked on your link and found these two as recommendations:

    These are talent shows with tens of millions of views with a huge upvote share. Russian society is sexually permissive and Russian men allow their women to act like glorified hookers on national TV. I’m not saying we are better, we clearly aren’t, but in this regard Russia is not any different from the West. And my point is that this is not an automatic rule. I don’t buy the whole “lol girls just wanna have fun” excuse. This kind of shit is promoted nonstop in the media. It didn’t happen organically. More importantly, the men allow it to happen. You have even seen that kind of justification in this thread.

    The same kind of culture is beamed into other parts of the non-white world, but there men impose a social cost to acting like this. In Russia you can get on talent shows acting like a whore. This is a social choice by the men of their respective societies and let’s not pretend otherwise.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @Thulean Friend

    https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/960/986/d28.gif

    , @Brutis
    @Thulean Friend

    Stop being a self hating cuck.

    Non white men impose a cost because the state is less effective.

    Study on Islamic Terror indicated when the state can prevent retaliatory mob violence the sullahs do more terrorism.

    Liberalism is a global and not a white non white problem. It's just a more advanced problem in the white world.

    A fucking Indian or Chinese doesn't want to be filled with Negroes either and even one is too many so Stfu.

    , @Dmitry
    @Thulean Friend

    It's not especially permissiveness, but just where there is higher safety for women, they (i.e. exhibitionist subsection of the female population, which is not necessarily a majority) can attract attention without danger.

    In Russia, overall crime is higher than Western Europe, but the attitude for women is a comfortable one as in Western Europe.

    For example, Armenian woman I have heard personally, (not just because of the recent story) that she is happy she grew up in Russia, because the attitude for women is frightening for her in Armenia.

    Or you can see in Japan, where personal safety is very high, how women behave similarly. (On the other hand, in India, the Middle East, of Africa, half of people would likely be raped with clothes like this - in Japan the probability of being raped is maybe lower than strikes by lightening).

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmSvmvn1sFw

  88. @melanf
    @Priss Factor


    As long as you have freedom and lots of blacks, blacks will dominate sports and jungle music, and too many whites will become jungle junkies.
     
    If we are talking about the liberated behavior of different Schoolgirls, the African emigration has nothing to do with it. Girls tend to attract attention in any way, it is a genetic program.

    Here is ex-USSR where there are no blacks

    http://i.imgur.com/xKC1dWv.jpg

    https://negani.com/uploads/posts/2013-06/1372542445_4.jpg

    etc, etc

    There is nothing new in this

    https://img3.goodfon.ru/original/1024x768/d/a6/boilly-lyudi-igra-bilyard.jpg

    Or for example oficial portrait of Empress Elizabeth Petrovna

    https://icdn.lenta.ru/images/2019/08/23/18/20190823185134543/pic_521c2e603c89e1ce013d0916b95d4c6d.jpg

    Replies: @Thulean Friend, @neutral

    You’re trying to cover the issue in fatalism. And it is quite interesting that a lot of Russian men in this thread have defended these social norms where whoredom is celebrated/normalised, or at least put up their hands in resignation. A society’s women act the way they are allowed to by their men. Feminists are not wrong in this, which is why they obsess over men’s attitudes.

    There is nothing automatic about dressing like a hooker, and it doesn’t serve anyone trying to pretend otherwise. If men show permissive attitudes, women will take the cue. It’s that simple. This is a social choice made by the men in that society and not taking a stand against something is also taking an implicit stand in favor of it, by allowing it to happen.

    • Replies: @melanf
    @Thulean Friend


    You’re trying to cover the issue in fatalism. And it is quite interesting that a lot of Russian men in this thread have defended these social norms where whoredom is celebrated/normalised
     
    These half-naked girls are just stupid (and in most cases ugly) girls trying to attract attention. If you make these girls wear long dresses, they won't get any smarter. Again whoredom does not improve if this phenomenon is hidden under long clothes. Because of this, I do not understand why these half-naked girls should bother me? Rather, on the contrary such clothing is a marker of stupidity, so I know who to avoid.

    Replies: @anonymous coward

  89. Your almost acting like a cuck for Yang at this point AK. The first thing he said in the first debate is that “Russia is a bigger threat the China” and he repeats the MSMs script on “WHITE SUPREMACY” verbatim. Its almost like you still like hime because he is one of bay area bros.

  90. @Thulean Friend
    @Dmitry


    but in Russia though, schoolgirls are twerking without any direct social contact of African Americans.
     
    And why would they need any direct social contract. I clicked on your link and found these two as recommendations:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fW3fBHO76XA

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gL5zzIkrXMc

    These are talent shows with tens of millions of views with a huge upvote share. Russian society is sexually permissive and Russian men allow their women to act like glorified hookers on national TV. I'm not saying we are better, we clearly aren't, but in this regard Russia is not any different from the West. And my point is that this is not an automatic rule. I don't buy the whole "lol girls just wanna have fun" excuse. This kind of shit is promoted nonstop in the media. It didn't happen organically. More importantly, the men allow it to happen. You have even seen that kind of justification in this thread.

    The same kind of culture is beamed into other parts of the non-white world, but there men impose a social cost to acting like this. In Russia you can get on talent shows acting like a whore. This is a social choice by the men of their respective societies and let's not pretend otherwise.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Brutis, @Dmitry

    • Agree: neutral
    • LOL: German_reader
  91. So I am quite amused by this thread. On the one hand we have fatalists like melanf and others who give their implicit acceptance by pretending nothing can be done. On the other hand, we have dumb ironybro posters like reiner Tor who has nothing to say. Meanwhile:

    The point I’m making is that people who care about the social norms in any given society are the ones who will shape it. Trannies are being pushed today by the same people who started a lot of the negative social trends decades earlier. Fatalism/passive acceptance or ironybro posting is not an answer to any of this.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @Thulean Friend

    There’s a whole interconnected government structure throughout the West (it’s not enough to just topple one of them, not even the strongest), judiciary (also interconnected in Europe at least), media, big tech, academia, and probably a few more I forgot to mention. The whole thing is stacked against us.

    Now, it’s not like some self-improvement advice is going to help. Nor some kind of movement, even copying our enemies won’t help. (They operated abusing the old elites’ sense of fairness. “I ask for mercy when you are stronger, because that is your principle. I don’t give mercy when I’m stronger, because that is my principle.”)

    We are at the point where we need our enemies to make major mistakes. I’m pretty sure that they will make mistakes. It’s just the nature of things that the strong always make mistakes. Nothing lasts forever. The only question is if their collapse will come before or after it’s too late demographically.

    , @Epigon
    @Thulean Friend


    On the one hand we have fatalists like melanf and others who give their implicit acceptance by pretending nothing can be done. On the other hand, we have dumb ironybro posters like reiner Tor who has nothing to say.
     
    Your constructive proposal on what needs to be done is?

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Thulean Friend

    , @reiner Tor
    @Thulean Friend


    ironybro
     
    Don’t be so square. You also did great parody with your jokes praising the synthetic “food.”
    , @Beckow
    @Thulean Friend

    The problem is that traditional family-centered societies tend to end in a cul-de-sac. More and more virtue leads to a natural counter-reaction. I don't defend it and it is not fatalism, we just need to be aware that dynamic exists.

    I am not quite sure why it is, but it always seems to happen over time. It happens when prosperity rises (Sweden in the 70's-90', or Canada), but it also happens when societies are economically collapsing (Russia in the 90's or Weimar Germany).

    I would like a society where families with children are heavily preferred, divorce is limited, and abnormal behaviors are pushed to the margins. But we had societies like that and they turned out to be unstable. One of the side effects of many traditional societies is men behaving badly. It has certain appeal to me, but let's not fool ourselves, that is also very destructive.

    Replies: @AP

  92. @Thulean Friend
    @Dmitry


    but in Russia though, schoolgirls are twerking without any direct social contact of African Americans.
     
    And why would they need any direct social contract. I clicked on your link and found these two as recommendations:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fW3fBHO76XA

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gL5zzIkrXMc

    These are talent shows with tens of millions of views with a huge upvote share. Russian society is sexually permissive and Russian men allow their women to act like glorified hookers on national TV. I'm not saying we are better, we clearly aren't, but in this regard Russia is not any different from the West. And my point is that this is not an automatic rule. I don't buy the whole "lol girls just wanna have fun" excuse. This kind of shit is promoted nonstop in the media. It didn't happen organically. More importantly, the men allow it to happen. You have even seen that kind of justification in this thread.

    The same kind of culture is beamed into other parts of the non-white world, but there men impose a social cost to acting like this. In Russia you can get on talent shows acting like a whore. This is a social choice by the men of their respective societies and let's not pretend otherwise.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Brutis, @Dmitry

    Stop being a self hating cuck.

    Non white men impose a cost because the state is less effective.

    Study on Islamic Terror indicated when the state can prevent retaliatory mob violence the sullahs do more terrorism.

    Liberalism is a global and not a white non white problem. It’s just a more advanced problem in the white world.

    A fucking Indian or Chinese doesn’t want to be filled with Negroes either and even one is too many so Stfu.

  93. [MORE]

    https://mobile.twitter.com/haryannvi/status/1169339027234807808?ref_url=http%3a%2f%2fwww.unz.com%2fakarlin%2fopen-thread-88%2f
    https://mobile.twitter.com/jamadagnyani/status/1171320205601116160?ref_url=http%3a%2f%2fwww.unz.com%2fakarlin%2fopen-thread-88%2f

    https://mobile.twitter.com/akarlin88/status/1171771252488515585?ref_url=http%3a%2f%2fwww.unz.com%2fakarlin%2fopen-thread-88%2f

    No Karlin we like your writing and don’t want to oven you।।

    https://mobile.twitter.com/KillerSilence1/status/1144860083110780929/photo/3

  94. [MORE]

    https://twitter.com/bullehbatalvi/status/1128599391168647170?s=20

    https://twitter.com/bullehbatalvi/status/1144517228609490944?s=20

    Khalsa travels the world unhindered.
    Without wealth they are rich,
    Without land, Kings.

    Karlin pretends to be a Saka
    A Zath of the Massagetae
    An Alan of the Rukhsalan
    Or a Sarmat among the Aryas

    He is just a semite cow-killer.

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾ।।ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ।।

  95. Recently, I went to a conference in Akademgorodok, a scientific suburb of Novosibirsk built in the late Khrushchev era. Hands down this is the nicest small Russian town I have seen. Clean, orderly, polite. Good food and coffee.

    Novosibirsk itself, while having a few nice streets, is in general rather shabby. Philip Philipovich Preobrazhensky was right. I do not love the proletariat. Intelligent, conscientious people have a duty to take up the burden of organizing society.

    Anyhow, after that visit, I finally got around to reading Spufford’s Red Plenty, part of which is set in Akademgorodok. One plot point that stuck out, rather suspiciously, is when the geneticist studying mutations discovers two cohorts of people exhibiting an increased rate of mutation: a cohort growing up (or born?) during the Civil War and another growing up during Stalin’s Terror. Notably she found no increased rate of mutation from the cohort who grew up during the Second World War. Supposedly these were the discoveries of the real-life model for this character, Raisa Berg, but I haven’t pursued that yet.

    A few thoughts.

    First, it would certainly be interesting to look at genetic traces of major historical events. Does anyone know of other examples? In this content, I’ve only ever heard of fat content statistics, not mutation rates.

    Second, while it is not surprising that the Civil War left a mark on Russian DNA, I’m very skeptical that Stalin would have left a more noticeable mark than Hitler. Rough numbers from Google: 8 million dead in the civil war, 600,000 to 1.2 million dead from Stalin’s Terror, and about 20 million dead during the German invasion. So Stalin’s Terror, while no doubt miserable to live through, was incomparable in magnitude to both the Civil War and to the Second World War.

    • Replies: @Thulean Friend
    @The Big Red Scary


    First, it would certainly be interesting to look at genetic traces of major historical events. Does anyone know of other examples?
     
    A famous example would be the Dutch winter famine of 1944. This deals with the genetics effects for those born during that period. Does this qualify as 'fat content statistics', though?

    Replies: @The Big Red Scary

    , @AP
    @The Big Red Scary


    So Stalin’s Terror, while no doubt miserable to live through, was incomparable in magnitude to both the Civil War and to the Second World War.
     
    Yes, but Stalin specifically targeted smart and conscientious hard-working people. Hitler's victims were probably more evenly distributed.

    Replies: @Epigon

  96. @The Big Red Scary
    Recently, I went to a conference in Akademgorodok, a scientific suburb of Novosibirsk built in the late Khrushchev era. Hands down this is the nicest small Russian town I have seen. Clean, orderly, polite. Good food and coffee.

    Novosibirsk itself, while having a few nice streets, is in general rather shabby. Philip Philipovich Preobrazhensky was right. I do not love the proletariat. Intelligent, conscientious people have a duty to take up the burden of organizing society.

    Anyhow, after that visit, I finally got around to reading Spufford's Red Plenty, part of which is set in Akademgorodok. One plot point that stuck out, rather suspiciously, is when the geneticist studying mutations discovers two cohorts of people exhibiting an increased rate of mutation: a cohort growing up (or born?) during the Civil War and another growing up during Stalin's Terror. Notably she found no increased rate of mutation from the cohort who grew up during the Second World War. Supposedly these were the discoveries of the real-life model for this character, Raisa Berg, but I haven't pursued that yet.

    A few thoughts.

    First, it would certainly be interesting to look at genetic traces of major historical events. Does anyone know of other examples? In this content, I've only ever heard of fat content statistics, not mutation rates.

    Second, while it is not surprising that the Civil War left a mark on Russian DNA, I'm very skeptical that Stalin would have left a more noticeable mark than Hitler. Rough numbers from Google: 8 million dead in the civil war, 600,000 to 1.2 million dead from Stalin's Terror, and about 20 million dead during the German invasion. So Stalin's Terror, while no doubt miserable to live through, was incomparable in magnitude to both the Civil War and to the Second World War.

    Replies: @Thulean Friend, @AP

    First, it would certainly be interesting to look at genetic traces of major historical events. Does anyone know of other examples?

    A famous example would be the Dutch winter famine of 1944. This deals with the genetics effects for those born during that period. Does this qualify as ‘fat content statistics’, though?

    • Replies: @The Big Red Scary
    @Thulean Friend

    Thanks. The Dutch winter famine is what I vaguely had in mind and was trying to recall, but I didn't know there had been a genetic rather than purely phenotypical study.

    And I should have mentioned the Soviet Famine of 1932-1933 as another example of a major historical event of far greater magnitude than that of Stalin's Terror.

    I don't know much about demographics, but it seems to me that in questions of population, the sensible order of magnitude is powers of 2 rather than of 10. So one can say that the Civil War and Famine were each at least 3 orders of magnitude greater in death toll than the Terror, while the War was at least 4 orders of magnitude greater.

  97. @inertial
    @Anonymoose

    I like fried minced meat as much as the next guy but it's far more disgusting when you think about it. Dairy and eggs too.

    Replies: @Epigon, @Kent Nationalist

    Peak deracination

    • Replies: @inertial
    @Kent Nationalist

    We eat weird stuff if you think about it.

    What is egg? Reproductive organ of a bird whose purpose is to contain embrios.

    What is dairy? Secretion of certain reproductive glands, in various stages of decomposition.

    And what is meat? Muscle tissue of dead animals, usually partly decomposed as well.

    By contrast, that fake burger thing is merely a mixture of grains and legumes. Not clear why it would be any more disgusting than the things above.

    Replies: @Epigon, @songbird, @reiner Tor

  98. @TheTotallyAnonymous
    @Epigon


    As much as I would enjoy the company of several of those blondies, witnessing this behaviour kills any desire to interact with them. Twerking is disgusting on so many levels, animals in heat act with more dignity.

     

    You should consider the disgust you feel to be a good thing. It kills any naive or careless delusions that so many men have as far as women are concerned.

    It's always easy to forget, but the only real value of women (besides family or professional reasons) lies in casual sex or family formation (cleaning or basic service functions included as well). You can guess for yourself as to what purpose these women are good for.

    Replies: @Rosie

    You should consider the disgust you feel to be a good thing. It kills any naive or careless delusions that so many men have as far as women are concerned.

    This is why I always say you disgusting manosphere creeps are the ugly mirror image of feminists, only worse. Feminists define men according to their behavior at their worst, ignoring all the good they do and are.

    Feminists are far more gracious to men, though. They condemn only learned toxic masculinity (like yours) rather than concoct bogus theories of men’s innate wickedness.

    • Replies: @The Big Red Scary
    @Rosie

    Rosie, when a normal man has got himself a good bunch of grapes, he will praise their sweetness, even as they start getting a bit wrinkly and less juicy. Don't waste your time on those who complain about sour grapes.

    , @Epigon
    @Rosie

    Apparently, criticising women engaging in degenerate, humiliating behaviour and reducing themselves to meat and holes is - toxic masculinity.

    Replies: @Rosie

    , @anonymous coward
    @Rosie


    toxic masculinity
     
    Telling women to raise kids and form families is now "toxic masculinity"??

    Are you mad??

    Replies: @Rosie

    , @TheTotallyAnonymous
    @Rosie

    Honestly, I replied to you with a LOL because your Feminist svidomy (not sure if there could be a better phrase than that) is genuinely amusing. Of course, it's also not worth arguing with silly and shallow women, which is basically what 99.9% of all women are currently as a result of their surroundings and programming.

    I've already wasted more than enough time on that with you and I have absolutely no reason to doubt that I am a superior form of life to you anyway (which is quite natural as on average men are obviously superior to women in strength, intelligence and so on).

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Rosie

    , @Kent Nationalist
    @Rosie

    Men naturally have an overly rosy image of women they like, so realistic advice from other men is necessary to counteract it. Naturally women like you would prefer that men continue to be deluded and making bad decisions.

    Replies: @Rosie

  99. @Thulean Friend
    @The Big Red Scary


    First, it would certainly be interesting to look at genetic traces of major historical events. Does anyone know of other examples?
     
    A famous example would be the Dutch winter famine of 1944. This deals with the genetics effects for those born during that period. Does this qualify as 'fat content statistics', though?

    Replies: @The Big Red Scary

    Thanks. The Dutch winter famine is what I vaguely had in mind and was trying to recall, but I didn’t know there had been a genetic rather than purely phenotypical study.

    And I should have mentioned the Soviet Famine of 1932-1933 as another example of a major historical event of far greater magnitude than that of Stalin’s Terror.

    I don’t know much about demographics, but it seems to me that in questions of population, the sensible order of magnitude is powers of 2 rather than of 10. So one can say that the Civil War and Famine were each at least 3 orders of magnitude greater in death toll than the Terror, while the War was at least 4 orders of magnitude greater.

    • Agree: Thulean Friend
  100. @Rosie
    @TheTotallyAnonymous


    You should consider the disgust you feel to be a good thing. It kills any naive or careless delusions that so many men have as far as women are concerned.
     
    This is why I always say you disgusting manosphere creeps are the ugly mirror image of feminists, only worse. Feminists define men according to their behavior at their worst, ignoring all the good they do and are.

    Feminists are far more gracious to men, though. They condemn only learned toxic masculinity (like yours) rather than concoct bogus theories of men's innate wickedness.

    Replies: @The Big Red Scary, @Epigon, @anonymous coward, @TheTotallyAnonymous, @Kent Nationalist

    Rosie, when a normal man has got himself a good bunch of grapes, he will praise their sweetness, even as they start getting a bit wrinkly and less juicy. Don’t waste your time on those who complain about sour grapes.

  101. @Anonymous
    @Dmitry

    This video was making the 4chan rounds a few years ago

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rba9Z0CcWwQ

    A lot of this stuff (twerk classes, pole dancing/"stipper-obics") is marketed as exercise (which I'm sure it is). There is no great Jewish conspiracy here: women like to dance, they like to feel sexual and they want to do it in an environment that feels "safe" (i.e., only other women around). And for every one internet moral crusader disgusted by this behavior there's about 1000 other guys who are turned on by it.

    Replies: @anon, @Rosie, @Epigon

    There is no great Jewish conspiracy here: women like to dance, they like to feel sexual and they want to do it in an environment that feels “safe” (i.e., only other women around).

    Fact check: mostly true.

    Yes, we like to dance, ideally with other women. And yes, dancing is inherently sexual, but I don’t think that proves there’s no Jewish conspiracy. Gyms don’t offer any dance classes that don’t reflect the (((popular culture))).

    • Replies: @The Big Red Scary
    @Rosie

    My daughter likes dancing, and we spent some time looking for a decent dance studio where she could take a class, but failed. All of the dance studios in our area offered either pole-dancing and belly-dancing at the same time as the kiddy classes, so that my daughter would see all of the hussies as she came and went, or were hyper-competitive and demanded a time commitment that we felt was inappropriate at her age. Instead, we are looking into the soft version of Wushu (kung fu for princesses), with ribbons and pretty traditional Chinese music.

    Replies: @AP, @Dmitry

    , @Thulean Friend
    @Rosie


    And yes, dancing is inherently sexual
     
    Strongly disagree. Ballet at its apogee is one of the purest artforms I have ever had to pleasure to enjoy and it is far more sublime (at most sensual) rather than sexual if done right. Dancing can take many forms. When I visited Turkey, one of the most memorable scenes I saw was a spontaneous outburst of dancing on one of the passanger boats travelling to an island chain outside Istanbul. It started among mostly men but later women joined in. The vibe was respectable. No gyrations, no twerking. They weren't even professionals (to my admittedly amateur eyes) but they made up for that by the sheer joy of movement. I remember thinking I would never see this kind of stuff in Sweden. Too many autists and emotionally stunted people.

    Dancing can be incredibly enriching and fun, and it doesn't need to be vulgar. Like any artform: it becomes what we choose to fill it with. If you aim for trash, you get trash.

    Replies: @Kent Nationalist, @Rosie, @Dmitry

    , @Anonymous
    @Rosie


    Gyms don’t offer any dance classes that don’t reflect the (((popular culture)))
     
    I think "adult ballet" (i.e., ballet classes for non-professional novice adults) is a trendy thing; I've met women who do it. But different programs market to different demographics: the more high-toned forms of dancing (ballet, ballroom) will be enjoyed more by more affluent/educated women (those with successful careers, advance degrees etc), whereas the pole dancing/twerking will be more for proletarian lower-IQ types. Nothing new here; proles have always been more overtly sexual than the upper classes.
  102. @Thulean Friend
    So I am quite amused by this thread. On the one hand we have fatalists like melanf and others who give their implicit acceptance by pretending nothing can be done. On the other hand, we have dumb ironybro posters like reiner Tor who has nothing to say. Meanwhile:

    https://i.imgur.com/nTe0Z6k.jpg

    The point I'm making is that people who care about the social norms in any given society are the ones who will shape it. Trannies are being pushed today by the same people who started a lot of the negative social trends decades earlier. Fatalism/passive acceptance or ironybro posting is not an answer to any of this.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Epigon, @reiner Tor, @Beckow

    There’s a whole interconnected government structure throughout the West (it’s not enough to just topple one of them, not even the strongest), judiciary (also interconnected in Europe at least), media, big tech, academia, and probably a few more I forgot to mention. The whole thing is stacked against us.

    Now, it’s not like some self-improvement advice is going to help. Nor some kind of movement, even copying our enemies won’t help. (They operated abusing the old elites’ sense of fairness. “I ask for mercy when you are stronger, because that is your principle. I don’t give mercy when I’m stronger, because that is my principle.”)

    We are at the point where we need our enemies to make major mistakes. I’m pretty sure that they will make mistakes. It’s just the nature of things that the strong always make mistakes. Nothing lasts forever. The only question is if their collapse will come before or after it’s too late demographically.

  103. @Thulean Friend
    So I am quite amused by this thread. On the one hand we have fatalists like melanf and others who give their implicit acceptance by pretending nothing can be done. On the other hand, we have dumb ironybro posters like reiner Tor who has nothing to say. Meanwhile:

    https://i.imgur.com/nTe0Z6k.jpg

    The point I'm making is that people who care about the social norms in any given society are the ones who will shape it. Trannies are being pushed today by the same people who started a lot of the negative social trends decades earlier. Fatalism/passive acceptance or ironybro posting is not an answer to any of this.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Epigon, @reiner Tor, @Beckow

    On the one hand we have fatalists like melanf and others who give their implicit acceptance by pretending nothing can be done. On the other hand, we have dumb ironybro posters like reiner Tor who has nothing to say.

    Your constructive proposal on what needs to be done is?

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @Epigon

    Here’s my proposal:

    - do the personal self-improvement part. Many examples. Sports: if you are morbidly obese, go for walk every day. You can try pushups leaning on the wall. (Way easier, you should be able to do that.) Just start doing something. Stay longer outdoors. (Even reading a book is better outside.) Maybe cold showers. Reduce alcohol consumption if you drink a lot. Reduce or give up smoking. Reduce breathing volume, better breathing habits. (Yoga is great.) Etc. (Just start one small thing at first. Don’t overuse your willpower. It needs training, too.)
    - social self-improvement. Stand up for yourself and for others, at least whenever it’s possible. Don’t engage in depraved behavior. Be moral. If it’s impossible, at least don’t participate in the bad things. Criticize others for depravity. Etc.
    - possible organizing. Try to get into personal contact with people who have a similar worldview. Don’t engage in stupid infighting about minute details or slight differences in tactics. Etc.
    - be ready to punish the Enemy for its mistakes. But be prepared to wait patiently.

    There might be a few more points, it’s merely a rough idea.

    Replies: @Epigon, @peterAUS

    , @Thulean Friend
    @Epigon

    Why not three?

    A) Stop excusing whorish behaviour or being indifferent to it. Even doing this first step is a step too far for many in this thread. Being an ironybro like reiner Tor isn't constructive either, it is just masked nihilism.

    B) Reject radical deracinated individualism and "fuck you, I got mine" attitudes. None of these issues will be solved by personal bravery. As I have repeatedly stressed in this thread, and which you apparently missed, is that we need social enforcement of different norms. The inescapable enabling factor of that requires collective action. Nobody is going to enforce anything on their own. That is why deracinated individualism has to be targeted, which is connected to liberal assumptions.

    C) Discarding the cult of the gymbro and elevating nerds. I'm serious. What got us into this mess was ideas, not that those who wanted us harm could benchpress more at the gym. Reading is a criminally underrated activity and it needs to be elevated as a social status symbol.
    Try shaming someone today for not reading. They will look at you funny as if you're from another century. It has become normalised not to read and there is no social shame attached to it. People who are uneducated are easily manipulated. I don't give a shit about accusations of elitism. Non-readers need to be shamed. Of course, this doesn't excuse being a fattie or a sloth. But too many of self-improvement debates start and end at the physical realm or at best delve into social matters. Too little is about erudition. I like the slogan knowledge is power. It needs to become the center of the debate again.

    I've tried to follow the KISS principle. There are countless of things to be done, but there's something to be said about following a core set of basic principles to a T.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @reiner Tor, @Epigon

  104. @Thulean Friend
    So I am quite amused by this thread. On the one hand we have fatalists like melanf and others who give their implicit acceptance by pretending nothing can be done. On the other hand, we have dumb ironybro posters like reiner Tor who has nothing to say. Meanwhile:

    https://i.imgur.com/nTe0Z6k.jpg

    The point I'm making is that people who care about the social norms in any given society are the ones who will shape it. Trannies are being pushed today by the same people who started a lot of the negative social trends decades earlier. Fatalism/passive acceptance or ironybro posting is not an answer to any of this.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Epigon, @reiner Tor, @Beckow

    ironybro

    Don’t be so square. You also did great parody with your jokes praising the synthetic “food.”

  105. @Anonymous
    @Dmitry

    This video was making the 4chan rounds a few years ago

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rba9Z0CcWwQ

    A lot of this stuff (twerk classes, pole dancing/"stipper-obics") is marketed as exercise (which I'm sure it is). There is no great Jewish conspiracy here: women like to dance, they like to feel sexual and they want to do it in an environment that feels "safe" (i.e., only other women around). And for every one internet moral crusader disgusted by this behavior there's about 1000 other guys who are turned on by it.

    Replies: @anon, @Rosie, @Epigon

    A lot of this stuff (twerk classes, pole dancing/”stipper-obics”) is marketed as exercise (which I’m sure it is). There is no great Jewish conspiracy here: women like to dance, they like to feel sexual and they want to do it in an environment that feels “safe”

    Riiiight.
    This behaviour being in “women’s nature”, you think women 30, 50, 100, 200 years ago would approve of it and join in the fun?

    It’s almost as if moral code, desired and acceptable behaviour are not dictated by women themselves… And that there is a concentrated push coming from certain circles and groups with the explicite goal of undermining European traditions and social norms.

    • Agree: Rosie
    • Replies: @Brutis
    @Epigon

    These things go in cycles..

    , @Anonymous
    @Epigon

    Societies have been more or less repressive of female sexuality at varying times. Prostitution, for example, was probably more tolerated in most European countries circa 1700 than it is in the US today. Whether men exerted more control over female behavior at other points in history...probably they did? Or maybe not. Our knowledge of social norms in past eras is sketchy and mostly confined to the upper classes. My guess is they were more repressive in some respects, less repressive in others.

    A young woman's sexuality is (mostly) an asset for her, and young women will realize this naturally, without any outside help. It is a weapon, and like any weapon the trick is to use it in the right place at the right time. Women have been trying to show off their sexualities in various ways since before man was man. We are animals: girl and boy are turned on by each other, they screw and make babies. Nothing complicated about it. No Jewish conspiracy required.

    Replies: @anonymous coward

  106. Since everyone from melanf to Thulean Friend is posting pictures and videos of scantily dressed whores so shall I.

    • Replies: @Rosie
    @Anonymoose


    Since everyone from melanf to Thulean Friend is posting pictures and videos of scantily dressed whores so shall I.
     
    Whitey, never mind the black and tan hordes invading and overwhelming all of your homelands. What you really need to worry about is how women dress!
  107. Ironically it looks like the first Russian fast food chain to trial Beyond Meat will be the traditionalist Teremok chain

    Not ironic. Vegetable-based patties are a traditional Russian food, plus Teremok (being a traditionalist chain) features a Lent menu.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @anonymous coward

    I’d eat vegetable based patties. But super-processed synthetic food?

  108. @Rosie
    @TheTotallyAnonymous


    You should consider the disgust you feel to be a good thing. It kills any naive or careless delusions that so many men have as far as women are concerned.
     
    This is why I always say you disgusting manosphere creeps are the ugly mirror image of feminists, only worse. Feminists define men according to their behavior at their worst, ignoring all the good they do and are.

    Feminists are far more gracious to men, though. They condemn only learned toxic masculinity (like yours) rather than concoct bogus theories of men's innate wickedness.

    Replies: @The Big Red Scary, @Epigon, @anonymous coward, @TheTotallyAnonymous, @Kent Nationalist

    Apparently, criticising women engaging in degenerate, humiliating behaviour and reducing themselves to meat and holes is – toxic masculinity.

    • Replies: @Rosie
    @Epigon


    Apparently, criticising women engaging in degenerate, humiliating behaviour and reducing themselves to meat and holes is – toxic masculinity.
     
    You're free to criticize them all you want. Just don't lump me in with them. (I'm not saying you did that, but TheTotallyAnonymous certainly did.)

    Shall we judge ALL men based on how some act when they're partying with their bros? I'm sure that wouldn't be particularly flattering either.
  109. @Epigon
    @Thulean Friend


    On the one hand we have fatalists like melanf and others who give their implicit acceptance by pretending nothing can be done. On the other hand, we have dumb ironybro posters like reiner Tor who has nothing to say.
     
    Your constructive proposal on what needs to be done is?

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Thulean Friend

    Here’s my proposal:

    – do the personal self-improvement part. Many examples. Sports: if you are morbidly obese, go for walk every day. You can try pushups leaning on the wall. (Way easier, you should be able to do that.) Just start doing something. Stay longer outdoors. (Even reading a book is better outside.) Maybe cold showers. Reduce alcohol consumption if you drink a lot. Reduce or give up smoking. Reduce breathing volume, better breathing habits. (Yoga is great.) Etc. (Just start one small thing at first. Don’t overuse your willpower. It needs training, too.)
    – social self-improvement. Stand up for yourself and for others, at least whenever it’s possible. Don’t engage in depraved behavior. Be moral. If it’s impossible, at least don’t participate in the bad things. Criticize others for depravity. Etc.
    – possible organizing. Try to get into personal contact with people who have a similar worldview. Don’t engage in stupid infighting about minute details or slight differences in tactics. Etc.
    – be ready to punish the Enemy for its mistakes. But be prepared to wait patiently.

    There might be a few more points, it’s merely a rough idea.

    • Replies: @Epigon
    @reiner Tor

    It could be summed up - start acting like a tribe, looking out after tribal interests. Perceive your ethnicity as one giant extended family - meaning that even though your personal interests are at the top, trying to help or at least not harm others is mandatory.

    Parents working long hours, going after meme careers, egoism and hedonism combined with just core family living in a flat has had a very negative impact on children. I witness it everyday - they are neglected and raised by their surroundings and media/Internet.
    Which is naturally a disaster because the lowest common denominator in this age are stupid realities, celebrities, whoredom, shallow materialism and moral relativism.

    What you wrote is correct, but it is unrealistic - average people mostly lack the discipline, will and intelligence to do this on their own. What is needed is social pressure aimed at correcting and/or avoiding undesired behaviour - which is a difficult battle if the media is full of Hollywood and Globohomo propaganda.

    Slut shaming, ridicule and abuse of alcoholics, druggies, weirdos, obese slobs - might become a necessity.

    Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous, @Anatoly Karlin, @German_reader

    , @peterAUS
    @reiner Tor


    ....possible organizing. Try to get into personal contact with people who have a similar worldview.
     
    Do this VERY carefully. Be aware that, should you go that road, the game gets on the NEXT level.

    ...There might be a few more points..
     
    Learning how to defend yourself/people you care for. From situational awareness to court proceedings.

    Replies: @German_reader

  110. @reiner Tor
    @Epigon

    Here’s my proposal:

    - do the personal self-improvement part. Many examples. Sports: if you are morbidly obese, go for walk every day. You can try pushups leaning on the wall. (Way easier, you should be able to do that.) Just start doing something. Stay longer outdoors. (Even reading a book is better outside.) Maybe cold showers. Reduce alcohol consumption if you drink a lot. Reduce or give up smoking. Reduce breathing volume, better breathing habits. (Yoga is great.) Etc. (Just start one small thing at first. Don’t overuse your willpower. It needs training, too.)
    - social self-improvement. Stand up for yourself and for others, at least whenever it’s possible. Don’t engage in depraved behavior. Be moral. If it’s impossible, at least don’t participate in the bad things. Criticize others for depravity. Etc.
    - possible organizing. Try to get into personal contact with people who have a similar worldview. Don’t engage in stupid infighting about minute details or slight differences in tactics. Etc.
    - be ready to punish the Enemy for its mistakes. But be prepared to wait patiently.

    There might be a few more points, it’s merely a rough idea.

    Replies: @Epigon, @peterAUS

    It could be summed up – start acting like a tribe, looking out after tribal interests. Perceive your ethnicity as one giant extended family – meaning that even though your personal interests are at the top, trying to help or at least not harm others is mandatory.

    Parents working long hours, going after meme careers, egoism and hedonism combined with just core family living in a flat has had a very negative impact on children. I witness it everyday – they are neglected and raised by their surroundings and media/Internet.
    Which is naturally a disaster because the lowest common denominator in this age are stupid realities, celebrities, whoredom, shallow materialism and moral relativism.

    What you wrote is correct, but it is unrealistic – average people mostly lack the discipline, will and intelligence to do this on their own. What is needed is social pressure aimed at correcting and/or avoiding undesired behaviour – which is a difficult battle if the media is full of Hollywood and Globohomo propaganda.

    Slut shaming, ridicule and abuse of alcoholics, druggies, weirdos, obese slobs – might become a necessity.

    • Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous
    @Epigon

    Since I used my LOL button on Rosie, I'll just state I would press the AGREE button if I could with your comments 107, 110 and obviously this one; 112.

    Also, I have bad news. The women in the Serb diaspora, at least from what I see, are quite degenerate and unrestrained by their men (not all, of course, and this is probably similar in Serbia but there the women are at least overwhelmingly kept within the tribe). This isn't because the men aren't capable of doing so, but it's more because they just go along with the naive illusions and beta male worshiping of women (more so from a vague sense of traditional obligation to "respect", respect in the genuine not meme sense, women to an unecessarily high level). In general though, a large amount of Serbs in the diaspora have quite a weak connection to their homeland. Most of them don't know the history of their people in depth and have not read serious Serb literature in detail, or they have not even really bothered at least to visit Serbia at all.

    It's partly because some of them are just Yugo-Communist Boomers who engage in failed parenting, struggles with money and inferior economic opportunity compared to certain others, the trauma and stress from the 1990's, contempt for Serbia from 2000-2012 (still ongoing for some) but also, of course, exposure to peak globohomo and the modern western "lifestyle". My impression is that compared to many other ethnic groups, Serbs are somewhat plastic with their culture and identity so they assimilate quite easily into their host countries. All in all, I would state that only around 20-40% of the Serb diaspora can truly be considered Serbian and capable of potentially repatriating back to their homeland in the right circumstances. Considering the total Serb diaspora outside the Balkans numbers around 2 million total, this would mean somewhere between a few hundred thousand (2-4 hundred thousand) and almost a million (7-9 hundred thousand) Serbs.


    Parents working long hours, going after meme careers
     
    Otherwise, would you care to explain what you mean by the meme careers?

    Replies: @The Big Red Scary, @TheTotallyAnonymous, @Epigon

    , @Anatoly Karlin
    @Epigon


    Slut shaming, ridicule and abuse of alcoholics, druggies, weirdos, obese slobs...
     
    Sluttery has become evolutionarily adaptive in the past century, as it was before the rise of agriculture. Not going to get far with it.

    Alcoholism and drug addiction are minor problems.

    We are all weirdos here, so where to even start.

    Fat shaming is the only thing on this list where (1) you're not tilting against non-existing problems, (2) against your own interests, and (3) not coming off as a troglodyte.

    Problem is, they have a very strong lobby. Remember that Anglin was only kicked off the Internet when he made fun of that Heather woman.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @Thulean Friend

    , @German_reader
    @Epigon


    Perceive your ethnicity as one giant extended family
     
    Maybe that's possible for someone from the Balkans like yourself, but it's bizarre to frame it like that in Western Europe. When a large part of your "ethnicity" wants to see people like you socially destroyed for their views and openly states they prefer the most exotic foreigners, why treat such people as relatives?

    Replies: @reiner Tor

  111. @Rosie
    @Anonymous


    There is no great Jewish conspiracy here: women like to dance, they like to feel sexual and they want to do it in an environment that feels “safe” (i.e., only other women around).
     
    Fact check: mostly true.

    Yes, we like to dance, ideally with other women. And yes, dancing is inherently sexual, but I don't think that proves there's no Jewish conspiracy. Gyms don't offer any dance classes that don't reflect the (((popular culture))).

    Replies: @The Big Red Scary, @Thulean Friend, @Anonymous

    My daughter likes dancing, and we spent some time looking for a decent dance studio where she could take a class, but failed. All of the dance studios in our area offered either pole-dancing and belly-dancing at the same time as the kiddy classes, so that my daughter would see all of the hussies as she came and went, or were hyper-competitive and demanded a time commitment that we felt was inappropriate at her age. Instead, we are looking into the soft version of Wushu (kung fu for princesses), with ribbons and pretty traditional Chinese music.

    • Replies: @AP
    @The Big Red Scary

    Did you try rhythmic gymnastics? We did that for one of the kids. The instructor was from Russia, as were most of the kids' parents.

    Replies: @Anon

    , @Dmitry
    @The Big Red Scary

    Well at least, they did not have pole dancing class for children in your gym...
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMkc450rFKQ
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bA6hpbuqnw

  112. @Rosie
    @TheTotallyAnonymous


    You should consider the disgust you feel to be a good thing. It kills any naive or careless delusions that so many men have as far as women are concerned.
     
    This is why I always say you disgusting manosphere creeps are the ugly mirror image of feminists, only worse. Feminists define men according to their behavior at their worst, ignoring all the good they do and are.

    Feminists are far more gracious to men, though. They condemn only learned toxic masculinity (like yours) rather than concoct bogus theories of men's innate wickedness.

    Replies: @The Big Red Scary, @Epigon, @anonymous coward, @TheTotallyAnonymous, @Kent Nationalist

    toxic masculinity

    Telling women to raise kids and form families is now “toxic masculinity”??

    Are you mad??

    • Replies: @Rosie
    @anonymous coward


    Telling women to raise kids and form families is now “toxic masculinity”??
     
    http://www.scientificskeptic.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/StrawMan2.jpg
  113. @anonymous coward

    Ironically it looks like the first Russian fast food chain to trial Beyond Meat will be the traditionalist Teremok chain
     
    Not ironic. Vegetable-based patties are a traditional Russian food, plus Teremok (being a traditionalist chain) features a Lent menu.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    I’d eat vegetable based patties. But super-processed synthetic food?

  114. @Rosie
    @TheTotallyAnonymous


    You should consider the disgust you feel to be a good thing. It kills any naive or careless delusions that so many men have as far as women are concerned.
     
    This is why I always say you disgusting manosphere creeps are the ugly mirror image of feminists, only worse. Feminists define men according to their behavior at their worst, ignoring all the good they do and are.

    Feminists are far more gracious to men, though. They condemn only learned toxic masculinity (like yours) rather than concoct bogus theories of men's innate wickedness.

    Replies: @The Big Red Scary, @Epigon, @anonymous coward, @TheTotallyAnonymous, @Kent Nationalist

    Honestly, I replied to you with a LOL because your Feminist svidomy (not sure if there could be a better phrase than that) is genuinely amusing. Of course, it’s also not worth arguing with silly and shallow women, which is basically what 99.9% of all women are currently as a result of their surroundings and programming.

    I’ve already wasted more than enough time on that with you and I have absolutely no reason to doubt that I am a superior form of life to you anyway (which is quite natural as on average men are obviously superior to women in strength, intelligence and so on).

    • LOL: Kent Nationalist
    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @TheTotallyAnonymous


    on average men are obviously superior to women in strength, intelligence and so on
     
    Probably true to an extent, but without women, men would be nothing.

    Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous

    , @Rosie
    @TheTotallyAnonymous


    I have absolutely no reason to doubt that I am a superior form of life to you anyway
     
    Plato was right. Anyone who claims to be a "superior life form" is certainly an inferior one.
  115. @anonymous coward
    @Rosie


    toxic masculinity
     
    Telling women to raise kids and form families is now "toxic masculinity"??

    Are you mad??

    Replies: @Rosie

    Telling women to raise kids and form families is now “toxic masculinity”??

  116. @TheTotallyAnonymous
    @Rosie

    Honestly, I replied to you with a LOL because your Feminist svidomy (not sure if there could be a better phrase than that) is genuinely amusing. Of course, it's also not worth arguing with silly and shallow women, which is basically what 99.9% of all women are currently as a result of their surroundings and programming.

    I've already wasted more than enough time on that with you and I have absolutely no reason to doubt that I am a superior form of life to you anyway (which is quite natural as on average men are obviously superior to women in strength, intelligence and so on).

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Rosie

    on average men are obviously superior to women in strength, intelligence and so on

    Probably true to an extent, but without women, men would be nothing.

    • Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous
    @reiner Tor


    Probably true to an extent, but without women, men would be nothing.

     

    Men would only be nothing without women in the sense that more men could not come into this world. Otherwise, all the current men who have already been born could easily survive by themselves up to their final years without women. The problem is that women are necessary to make children. Therefore, gearing their behavior towards making babies and caring for them as they grow up is of a very high importance.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

  117. @TheTotallyAnonymous
    @Rosie

    Honestly, I replied to you with a LOL because your Feminist svidomy (not sure if there could be a better phrase than that) is genuinely amusing. Of course, it's also not worth arguing with silly and shallow women, which is basically what 99.9% of all women are currently as a result of their surroundings and programming.

    I've already wasted more than enough time on that with you and I have absolutely no reason to doubt that I am a superior form of life to you anyway (which is quite natural as on average men are obviously superior to women in strength, intelligence and so on).

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Rosie

    I have absolutely no reason to doubt that I am a superior form of life to you anyway

    Plato was right. Anyone who claims to be a “superior life form” is certainly an inferior one.

  118. @Epigon
    @Rosie

    Apparently, criticising women engaging in degenerate, humiliating behaviour and reducing themselves to meat and holes is - toxic masculinity.

    Replies: @Rosie

    Apparently, criticising women engaging in degenerate, humiliating behaviour and reducing themselves to meat and holes is – toxic masculinity.

    You’re free to criticize them all you want. Just don’t lump me in with them. (I’m not saying you did that, but TheTotallyAnonymous certainly did.)

    Shall we judge ALL men based on how some act when they’re partying with their bros? I’m sure that wouldn’t be particularly flattering either.

  119. @Rosie
    @TheTotallyAnonymous


    You should consider the disgust you feel to be a good thing. It kills any naive or careless delusions that so many men have as far as women are concerned.
     
    This is why I always say you disgusting manosphere creeps are the ugly mirror image of feminists, only worse. Feminists define men according to their behavior at their worst, ignoring all the good they do and are.

    Feminists are far more gracious to men, though. They condemn only learned toxic masculinity (like yours) rather than concoct bogus theories of men's innate wickedness.

    Replies: @The Big Red Scary, @Epigon, @anonymous coward, @TheTotallyAnonymous, @Kent Nationalist

    Men naturally have an overly rosy image of women they like, so realistic advice from other men is necessary to counteract it. Naturally women like you would prefer that men continue to be deluded and making bad decisions.

    • Replies: @Rosie
    @Kent Nationalist


    Men naturally have an overly rosy image of women they like, so realistic advice from other men is necessary to counteract it. Naturally women like you would prefer that men continue to be deluded and making bad decisions.
     
    Switch the genders around and you have articulated the rationale for radical feminism, in short.

    Replies: @Epigon, @Kent Nationalist

  120. @Epigon
    @Anonymous


    A lot of this stuff (twerk classes, pole dancing/”stipper-obics”) is marketed as exercise (which I’m sure it is). There is no great Jewish conspiracy here: women like to dance, they like to feel sexual and they want to do it in an environment that feels “safe”
     
    Riiiight.
    This behaviour being in "women's nature", you think women 30, 50, 100, 200 years ago would approve of it and join in the fun?


    It's almost as if moral code, desired and acceptable behaviour are not dictated by women themselves... And that there is a concentrated push coming from certain circles and groups with the explicite goal of undermining European traditions and social norms.

    Replies: @Brutis, @Anonymous

    These things go in cycles..

  121. @Kent Nationalist
    @Rosie

    Men naturally have an overly rosy image of women they like, so realistic advice from other men is necessary to counteract it. Naturally women like you would prefer that men continue to be deluded and making bad decisions.

    Replies: @Rosie

    Men naturally have an overly rosy image of women they like, so realistic advice from other men is necessary to counteract it. Naturally women like you would prefer that men continue to be deluded and making bad decisions.

    Switch the genders around and you have articulated the rationale for radical feminism, in short.

    • Replies: @Epigon
    @Rosie

    Are you mentally impaired?

    Your line of thought would only make sense if feminism is a reaction to Sharia, basketball Americans, male degeneracy.

    It isn't, it is against traiditional society and family, and mobilised women for labour market, transforming them into drones and consumers.

    Replies: @Rosie, @TheTotallyAnonymous

    , @Kent Nationalist
    @Rosie

    Neither liberal ('it's your body do what you want') nor radical ('become a lesbian') feminists give sensible advice about men though. Both of those oppose giving women sensible, grandmotherly advice about how to behave with men.

    Replies: @Rosie

  122. @Anonymoose
    Since everyone from melanf to Thulean Friend is posting pictures and videos of scantily dressed whores so shall I.

    https://i.imgur.com/p0Kj2jC.jpg

    https://i.imgur.com/Uf8rECf.jpg

    https://i.imgur.com/3yeOcdX.jpg

    https://i.imgur.com/IOmZLYd.jpg

    https://cdn.ebaumsworld.com/mediaFiles/picture/202553/85437022.jpg

    https://cdn.ebaumsworld.com/mediaFiles/picture/202553/85437024.jpg

    Replies: @Rosie

    Since everyone from melanf to Thulean Friend is posting pictures and videos of scantily dressed whores so shall I.

    Whitey, never mind the black and tan hordes invading and overwhelming all of your homelands. What you really need to worry about is how women dress!

  123. @Rosie
    @Kent Nationalist


    Men naturally have an overly rosy image of women they like, so realistic advice from other men is necessary to counteract it. Naturally women like you would prefer that men continue to be deluded and making bad decisions.
     
    Switch the genders around and you have articulated the rationale for radical feminism, in short.

    Replies: @Epigon, @Kent Nationalist

    Are you mentally impaired?

    Your line of thought would only make sense if feminism is a reaction to Sharia, basketball Americans, male degeneracy.

    It isn’t, it is against traiditional society and family, and mobilised women for labour market, transforming them into drones and consumers.

    • Replies: @Rosie
    @Epigon


    Your line of thought would only make sense if feminism is a reaction to Sharia, basketball Americans, male degeneracy.
     
    Feminism is certainly a reaction to male degeneracy, among other things, namely the tendency of some men to dump their wives in middle age.

    Our generation was told in no uncertain terms: "Do not depend on a man. Be prepared to take care of yourself." And who told us this? None other than Dear Old Dad himself.

    It is also a reaction to the dehumanizing attitudes you see often on this site, but are thankfully less common now.
    , @TheTotallyAnonymous
    @Epigon

    Don't worry Epigon, Rosie isn't mentally impaired, she's just a woman.

  124. An interesting long-form interview with one of the Google whistleblowers. The guy in question became one of the chief engineers over at Youtube when he saw a drastic increase in censorship and ultimately paid for it with a high-paying career (200K USD salary). Respect where its due.

    https://www.spreaker.com/user/nyadagbladet/i-mote-med-zachary-vorhies?utm_medium=widget&utm_source=user%3A10134768&utm_term=episode_title

    Don’t be scared by the Swedish text. The interview is conducted in English.

  125. @Rosie
    @Anonymous


    There is no great Jewish conspiracy here: women like to dance, they like to feel sexual and they want to do it in an environment that feels “safe” (i.e., only other women around).
     
    Fact check: mostly true.

    Yes, we like to dance, ideally with other women. And yes, dancing is inherently sexual, but I don't think that proves there's no Jewish conspiracy. Gyms don't offer any dance classes that don't reflect the (((popular culture))).

    Replies: @The Big Red Scary, @Thulean Friend, @Anonymous

    And yes, dancing is inherently sexual

    Strongly disagree. Ballet at its apogee is one of the purest artforms I have ever had to pleasure to enjoy and it is far more sublime (at most sensual) rather than sexual if done right. Dancing can take many forms. When I visited Turkey, one of the most memorable scenes I saw was a spontaneous outburst of dancing on one of the passanger boats travelling to an island chain outside Istanbul. It started among mostly men but later women joined in. The vibe was respectable. No gyrations, no twerking. They weren’t even professionals (to my admittedly amateur eyes) but they made up for that by the sheer joy of movement. I remember thinking I would never see this kind of stuff in Sweden. Too many autists and emotionally stunted people.

    Dancing can be incredibly enriching and fun, and it doesn’t need to be vulgar. Like any artform: it becomes what we choose to fill it with. If you aim for trash, you get trash.

    • Replies: @Kent Nationalist
    @Thulean Friend


    They weren’t even professionals (to my admittedly amateur eyes) but they made up for that by the sheer joy of movement. I remember thinking I would never see this kind of stuff in Sweden. Too many autists and emotionally stunted people.

     

    Spaniards do this all the time (although mostly to reggaeton rubbish); it's a med thing.
    , @Rosie
    @Thulean Friend


    Ballet at its apogee is one of the purest artforms I have ever had to pleasure to enjoy and it is far more sublime (at most sensual) rather than sexual if done right.
     
    Ballet seems "pure" to you now only because you are sexually desensitized by explicit pornography.

    https://www.artsy.net/article/artsy-editorial-sordid-truth-degass-ballet-dancers

    Replies: @Thulean Friend, @Mikel

    , @Dmitry
    @Thulean Friend


    Turkey, one of the most memorable
     
    What you describe, more of a memory of Arab/Middle Eastern tribal dancing (although in Islamic countries they will separate according to gender).

    A Middle Eastern culture shock of Israel, people are often randomly dancing in the street.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJoasj7czXM

    If you remember when Trump has visited Saudi Arabia they make him dance in the original way of tribal people of this region.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFOyCwCRTgw


    . Ballet at its apogee is one of the purest artforms I have ever had to pleasure to enjoy and it is far more sublime

     

    Ballet is trying to make human movement as unlike as possible to movement of the apes or the animals. So I agree it is apogee of a kind of sublimation.

    However, in terms of sexuality - in the 19th century, ballet was close to prostitution.

    Ballerinas that 19th century art (like Degas) has painted, are primarily attaining money as prostitutes or mistresses.

    https://www.history.com/.image/t_share/MTU3ODc4NjgzNzc5NDA5NjMx/image-placeholder-title.jpg

  126. @melanf
    @Priss Factor


    As long as you have freedom and lots of blacks, blacks will dominate sports and jungle music, and too many whites will become jungle junkies.
     
    If we are talking about the liberated behavior of different Schoolgirls, the African emigration has nothing to do with it. Girls tend to attract attention in any way, it is a genetic program.

    Here is ex-USSR where there are no blacks

    http://i.imgur.com/xKC1dWv.jpg

    https://negani.com/uploads/posts/2013-06/1372542445_4.jpg

    etc, etc

    There is nothing new in this

    https://img3.goodfon.ru/original/1024x768/d/a6/boilly-lyudi-igra-bilyard.jpg

    Or for example oficial portrait of Empress Elizabeth Petrovna

    https://icdn.lenta.ru/images/2019/08/23/18/20190823185134543/pic_521c2e603c89e1ce013d0916b95d4c6d.jpg

    Replies: @Thulean Friend, @neutral

    the African emigration has nothing to do with it.

    True, blacks have zero real control of the mass media/entertainment outlets. Jews on the other hand have near total dominance of all mass pop culture, things like twerking became an acceptable societal norm because jews made it so.

  127. @Epigon
    @Rosie

    Are you mentally impaired?

    Your line of thought would only make sense if feminism is a reaction to Sharia, basketball Americans, male degeneracy.

    It isn't, it is against traiditional society and family, and mobilised women for labour market, transforming them into drones and consumers.

    Replies: @Rosie, @TheTotallyAnonymous

    Your line of thought would only make sense if feminism is a reaction to Sharia, basketball Americans, male degeneracy.

    Feminism is certainly a reaction to male degeneracy, among other things, namely the tendency of some men to dump their wives in middle age.

    Our generation was told in no uncertain terms: “Do not depend on a man. Be prepared to take care of yourself.” And who told us this? None other than Dear Old Dad himself.

    It is also a reaction to the dehumanizing attitudes you see often on this site, but are thankfully less common now.

  128. @Rosie
    @Kent Nationalist


    Men naturally have an overly rosy image of women they like, so realistic advice from other men is necessary to counteract it. Naturally women like you would prefer that men continue to be deluded and making bad decisions.
     
    Switch the genders around and you have articulated the rationale for radical feminism, in short.

    Replies: @Epigon, @Kent Nationalist

    Neither liberal (‘it’s your body do what you want’) nor radical (‘become a lesbian’) feminists give sensible advice about men though. Both of those oppose giving women sensible, grandmotherly advice about how to behave with men.

    • Replies: @Rosie
    @Kent Nationalist


    Neither liberal (‘it’s your body do what you want’) nor radical (‘become a lesbian’) feminists give sensible advice about men though. Both of those oppose giving women sensible, grandmotherly advice about how to behave with men.
     
    Actually, many did and do. There is a strong anti-makeup and anti-fashion and pro-modesty streak in feminism. When I got tired of getting the wrong kind of attention from men, I gave all that up. It worked like a charm.

    In any event, the woman-haters don't give any useful advice about women. All they do is tell men to manipulate women. Of course, being Macchiavellian sometimes gets you what you want. Playing hard to get works at least as well on men as it does on women. That doesn't make it any less sociopathic.
  129. @Epigon
    @reiner Tor

    It could be summed up - start acting like a tribe, looking out after tribal interests. Perceive your ethnicity as one giant extended family - meaning that even though your personal interests are at the top, trying to help or at least not harm others is mandatory.

    Parents working long hours, going after meme careers, egoism and hedonism combined with just core family living in a flat has had a very negative impact on children. I witness it everyday - they are neglected and raised by their surroundings and media/Internet.
    Which is naturally a disaster because the lowest common denominator in this age are stupid realities, celebrities, whoredom, shallow materialism and moral relativism.

    What you wrote is correct, but it is unrealistic - average people mostly lack the discipline, will and intelligence to do this on their own. What is needed is social pressure aimed at correcting and/or avoiding undesired behaviour - which is a difficult battle if the media is full of Hollywood and Globohomo propaganda.

    Slut shaming, ridicule and abuse of alcoholics, druggies, weirdos, obese slobs - might become a necessity.

    Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous, @Anatoly Karlin, @German_reader

    Since I used my LOL button on Rosie, I’ll just state I would press the AGREE button if I could with your comments 107, 110 and obviously this one; 112.

    Also, I have bad news. The women in the Serb diaspora, at least from what I see, are quite degenerate and unrestrained by their men (not all, of course, and this is probably similar in Serbia but there the women are at least overwhelmingly kept within the tribe). This isn’t because the men aren’t capable of doing so, but it’s more because they just go along with the naive illusions and beta male worshiping of women (more so from a vague sense of traditional obligation to “respect”, respect in the genuine not meme sense, women to an unecessarily high level). In general though, a large amount of Serbs in the diaspora have quite a weak connection to their homeland. Most of them don’t know the history of their people in depth and have not read serious Serb literature in detail, or they have not even really bothered at least to visit Serbia at all.

    It’s partly because some of them are just Yugo-Communist Boomers who engage in failed parenting, struggles with money and inferior economic opportunity compared to certain others, the trauma and stress from the 1990’s, contempt for Serbia from 2000-2012 (still ongoing for some) but also, of course, exposure to peak globohomo and the modern western “lifestyle”. My impression is that compared to many other ethnic groups, Serbs are somewhat plastic with their culture and identity so they assimilate quite easily into their host countries. All in all, I would state that only around 20-40% of the Serb diaspora can truly be considered Serbian and capable of potentially repatriating back to their homeland in the right circumstances. Considering the total Serb diaspora outside the Balkans numbers around 2 million total, this would mean somewhere between a few hundred thousand (2-4 hundred thousand) and almost a million (7-9 hundred thousand) Serbs.

    Parents working long hours, going after meme careers

    Otherwise, would you care to explain what you mean by the meme careers?

    • Replies: @The Big Red Scary
    @TheTotallyAnonymous

    Your observations are perhaps fair on average, but I have encountered some positive counter-examples. In particular, I know a healthy and absolutely lovely Serbian church in a certain mid-sized German city. So at least some Serbs have managed to integrate into German society while at the same time maintaining their traditions, both spiritual and cultural.

    , @TheTotallyAnonymous
    @TheTotallyAnonymous

    Oh, and agree with comment 125 of yours as well, of course.

    , @Epigon
    @TheTotallyAnonymous

    Diaspora has already been written off - look up Serb military record in USA forces, for example.

    Even single digits repatriating is a welcome bonus - except in case of being an agent in employ of their adopted homeland.


    Regarding career, the very concept of career (academic, business) being the centrepiece of existence and the true meaning of life is a meme, pushed by corporatist, materialist West. Revelation that this is untrue often comes far too late.

    Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous

  130. @Thulean Friend
    @Rosie


    And yes, dancing is inherently sexual
     
    Strongly disagree. Ballet at its apogee is one of the purest artforms I have ever had to pleasure to enjoy and it is far more sublime (at most sensual) rather than sexual if done right. Dancing can take many forms. When I visited Turkey, one of the most memorable scenes I saw was a spontaneous outburst of dancing on one of the passanger boats travelling to an island chain outside Istanbul. It started among mostly men but later women joined in. The vibe was respectable. No gyrations, no twerking. They weren't even professionals (to my admittedly amateur eyes) but they made up for that by the sheer joy of movement. I remember thinking I would never see this kind of stuff in Sweden. Too many autists and emotionally stunted people.

    Dancing can be incredibly enriching and fun, and it doesn't need to be vulgar. Like any artform: it becomes what we choose to fill it with. If you aim for trash, you get trash.

    Replies: @Kent Nationalist, @Rosie, @Dmitry

    They weren’t even professionals (to my admittedly amateur eyes) but they made up for that by the sheer joy of movement. I remember thinking I would never see this kind of stuff in Sweden. Too many autists and emotionally stunted people.

    Spaniards do this all the time (although mostly to reggaeton rubbish); it’s a med thing.

  131. @Thulean Friend
    @Rosie


    And yes, dancing is inherently sexual
     
    Strongly disagree. Ballet at its apogee is one of the purest artforms I have ever had to pleasure to enjoy and it is far more sublime (at most sensual) rather than sexual if done right. Dancing can take many forms. When I visited Turkey, one of the most memorable scenes I saw was a spontaneous outburst of dancing on one of the passanger boats travelling to an island chain outside Istanbul. It started among mostly men but later women joined in. The vibe was respectable. No gyrations, no twerking. They weren't even professionals (to my admittedly amateur eyes) but they made up for that by the sheer joy of movement. I remember thinking I would never see this kind of stuff in Sweden. Too many autists and emotionally stunted people.

    Dancing can be incredibly enriching and fun, and it doesn't need to be vulgar. Like any artform: it becomes what we choose to fill it with. If you aim for trash, you get trash.

    Replies: @Kent Nationalist, @Rosie, @Dmitry

    Ballet at its apogee is one of the purest artforms I have ever had to pleasure to enjoy and it is far more sublime (at most sensual) rather than sexual if done right.

    Ballet seems “pure” to you now only because you are sexually desensitized by explicit pornography.

    https://www.artsy.net/article/artsy-editorial-sordid-truth-degass-ballet-dancers

    • Replies: @Thulean Friend
    @Rosie

    I never said all Ballet is sophisticated or sensual. You can take any artform, including Ballet, and make it vulgar. That article, while interesting, dealt with the behind-the-stage dynamics. The fact that prostitution flourished does not surprise me. In ancient Greece, most actresses were doing prostitution as sidegigs, too. Does that take anything away from the magnificient dramas of Aeschylus, Sophocles or Euripides? Prostitution was rife in Shakespeare's London too. Does that diminish his works?

    We have to learn to seperate the lives of the people performing the art from the actual art. The article you linked contains some insights on this, as he rejects the dancers' sexual attempts at gaining favors by instead focusing on his obsessive pursuit of perfection and pure beauty. A true artist.


    Life was cruel to French ballet dancers, and they didn’t have it much easier at the hands of Degas himself. Although the artist was known to reject the advances of his models, his callousness manifested in other ways. To capture the physicality and discipline of the dancers, Degas demanded his models pose for hours at a time, enduring excruciating discomfort as they held their contorted positions. He wanted to capture his “little monkey girls,” as he called them, “cracking their joints” at the barre. “I have perhaps too often considered woman as an animal,” he once told the painter Pierre Georges Jeanniot in a moment of revealing honesty.

    Degas was undoubtedly a merciless, cantankerous man. He was a misogynist—peers seemed almost afraid of his antagonism towards women—an especially troubling reputation considering the already sexist norms of his society. Contemporary viewers now delight in the artist’s profoundly evocative hand and brilliant, textural applications of color. While it’s possible to admire Degas’s dancers from a formal standpoint, this narrow appreciation ignores the abuse these sorry girls suffered. A closer look at these works shows how the painter did indeed cut through the ballet’s kitschy artifice, uncovering a milieu of misery, hardship, and raw beauty.
     

    While he should have treated them better, let us not be naïve in that the women were innocent when they were seeking favors for sex.

    Replies: @Rosie

    , @Mikel
    @Rosie


    you are sexually desensitized by explicit pornography
     
    That is a harsh thing to tell a man, Rosie. Did you really mean what you said?

    Perhaps due to his being a Swede, TF did not take offense but you might have gotten a different reaction.

    I any case, I really don't know what some guys here are on about. It's not that many women act slutty because we men "allow" them to. It's that we gladly welcome those behaviors. And if they didn't affect our daughters and wives, we would be even more enthusiastic about them. When in the history of humanity have men got as much sex as they desired?

    Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous

  132. @TheTotallyAnonymous
    @Epigon

    Since I used my LOL button on Rosie, I'll just state I would press the AGREE button if I could with your comments 107, 110 and obviously this one; 112.

    Also, I have bad news. The women in the Serb diaspora, at least from what I see, are quite degenerate and unrestrained by their men (not all, of course, and this is probably similar in Serbia but there the women are at least overwhelmingly kept within the tribe). This isn't because the men aren't capable of doing so, but it's more because they just go along with the naive illusions and beta male worshiping of women (more so from a vague sense of traditional obligation to "respect", respect in the genuine not meme sense, women to an unecessarily high level). In general though, a large amount of Serbs in the diaspora have quite a weak connection to their homeland. Most of them don't know the history of their people in depth and have not read serious Serb literature in detail, or they have not even really bothered at least to visit Serbia at all.

    It's partly because some of them are just Yugo-Communist Boomers who engage in failed parenting, struggles with money and inferior economic opportunity compared to certain others, the trauma and stress from the 1990's, contempt for Serbia from 2000-2012 (still ongoing for some) but also, of course, exposure to peak globohomo and the modern western "lifestyle". My impression is that compared to many other ethnic groups, Serbs are somewhat plastic with their culture and identity so they assimilate quite easily into their host countries. All in all, I would state that only around 20-40% of the Serb diaspora can truly be considered Serbian and capable of potentially repatriating back to their homeland in the right circumstances. Considering the total Serb diaspora outside the Balkans numbers around 2 million total, this would mean somewhere between a few hundred thousand (2-4 hundred thousand) and almost a million (7-9 hundred thousand) Serbs.


    Parents working long hours, going after meme careers
     
    Otherwise, would you care to explain what you mean by the meme careers?

    Replies: @The Big Red Scary, @TheTotallyAnonymous, @Epigon

    Your observations are perhaps fair on average, but I have encountered some positive counter-examples. In particular, I know a healthy and absolutely lovely Serbian church in a certain mid-sized German city. So at least some Serbs have managed to integrate into German society while at the same time maintaining their traditions, both spiritual and cultural.

  133. @TheTotallyAnonymous
    @Epigon

    Since I used my LOL button on Rosie, I'll just state I would press the AGREE button if I could with your comments 107, 110 and obviously this one; 112.

    Also, I have bad news. The women in the Serb diaspora, at least from what I see, are quite degenerate and unrestrained by their men (not all, of course, and this is probably similar in Serbia but there the women are at least overwhelmingly kept within the tribe). This isn't because the men aren't capable of doing so, but it's more because they just go along with the naive illusions and beta male worshiping of women (more so from a vague sense of traditional obligation to "respect", respect in the genuine not meme sense, women to an unecessarily high level). In general though, a large amount of Serbs in the diaspora have quite a weak connection to their homeland. Most of them don't know the history of their people in depth and have not read serious Serb literature in detail, or they have not even really bothered at least to visit Serbia at all.

    It's partly because some of them are just Yugo-Communist Boomers who engage in failed parenting, struggles with money and inferior economic opportunity compared to certain others, the trauma and stress from the 1990's, contempt for Serbia from 2000-2012 (still ongoing for some) but also, of course, exposure to peak globohomo and the modern western "lifestyle". My impression is that compared to many other ethnic groups, Serbs are somewhat plastic with their culture and identity so they assimilate quite easily into their host countries. All in all, I would state that only around 20-40% of the Serb diaspora can truly be considered Serbian and capable of potentially repatriating back to their homeland in the right circumstances. Considering the total Serb diaspora outside the Balkans numbers around 2 million total, this would mean somewhere between a few hundred thousand (2-4 hundred thousand) and almost a million (7-9 hundred thousand) Serbs.


    Parents working long hours, going after meme careers
     
    Otherwise, would you care to explain what you mean by the meme careers?

    Replies: @The Big Red Scary, @TheTotallyAnonymous, @Epigon

    Oh, and agree with comment 125 of yours as well, of course.

  134. @Kent Nationalist
    @Rosie

    Neither liberal ('it's your body do what you want') nor radical ('become a lesbian') feminists give sensible advice about men though. Both of those oppose giving women sensible, grandmotherly advice about how to behave with men.

    Replies: @Rosie

    Neither liberal (‘it’s your body do what you want’) nor radical (‘become a lesbian’) feminists give sensible advice about men though. Both of those oppose giving women sensible, grandmotherly advice about how to behave with men.

    Actually, many did and do. There is a strong anti-makeup and anti-fashion and pro-modesty streak in feminism. When I got tired of getting the wrong kind of attention from men, I gave all that up. It worked like a charm.

    In any event, the woman-haters don’t give any useful advice about women. All they do is tell men to manipulate women. Of course, being Macchiavellian sometimes gets you what you want. Playing hard to get works at least as well on men as it does on women. That doesn’t make it any less sociopathic.

  135. @Epigon
    @Thulean Friend


    On the one hand we have fatalists like melanf and others who give their implicit acceptance by pretending nothing can be done. On the other hand, we have dumb ironybro posters like reiner Tor who has nothing to say.
     
    Your constructive proposal on what needs to be done is?

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Thulean Friend

    Why not three?

    A) Stop excusing whorish behaviour or being indifferent to it. Even doing this first step is a step too far for many in this thread. Being an ironybro like reiner Tor isn’t constructive either, it is just masked nihilism.

    B) Reject radical deracinated individualism and “fuck you, I got mine” attitudes. None of these issues will be solved by personal bravery. As I have repeatedly stressed in this thread, and which you apparently missed, is that we need social enforcement of different norms. The inescapable enabling factor of that requires collective action. Nobody is going to enforce anything on their own. That is why deracinated individualism has to be targeted, which is connected to liberal assumptions.

    C) Discarding the cult of the gymbro and elevating nerds. I’m serious. What got us into this mess was ideas, not that those who wanted us harm could benchpress more at the gym. Reading is a criminally underrated activity and it needs to be elevated as a social status symbol.
    Try shaming someone today for not reading. They will look at you funny as if you’re from another century. It has become normalised not to read and there is no social shame attached to it. People who are uneducated are easily manipulated. I don’t give a shit about accusations of elitism. Non-readers need to be shamed. Of course, this doesn’t excuse being a fattie or a sloth. But too many of self-improvement debates start and end at the physical realm or at best delve into social matters. Too little is about erudition. I like the slogan knowledge is power. It needs to become the center of the debate again.

    I’ve tried to follow the KISS principle. There are countless of things to be done, but there’s something to be said about following a core set of basic principles to a T.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @Thulean Friend


    Discarding the cult of the gymbro and elevating nerds.
     
    That's fine and dandy, but

    - currently nerds are already valued in society (just not as sexual partners, for which what you call "gymbro" is a useful thing), in fact, many new billionaires are nerds (like Zuckerberg)
    - people commenting here are already nerds. No need to work on your strength, you need to work on your weaknesses.
    - physically decrepit people cannot have healthy thoughts, at least not on average. The soyboy meme has some basis in reality (even if some soyboys, like you are apparently, might have more or less solid views).

    , @reiner Tor
    @Thulean Friend

    By the way, most nerds in the 19th century were physically often on the level of moderately fit people today. There were simply no cars, elevators, rolling luggages, etc., people had to be in a reasonably good shape (and people actually doing physical work were very strong by today's standards), even if they spent most of their days reading and writing books and letters and other documents.

    , @Epigon
    @Thulean Friend

    The only KISS principle - Kill Islamists, Sluts and Sodomites.
    Sweden RIP.


    Jokes aside, I was genuinely interested in your ideas, opinions and they seem to be generally similar to mine.
    Personal as well as collective efforts are needed.

  136. @Rosie
    @Thulean Friend


    Ballet at its apogee is one of the purest artforms I have ever had to pleasure to enjoy and it is far more sublime (at most sensual) rather than sexual if done right.
     
    Ballet seems "pure" to you now only because you are sexually desensitized by explicit pornography.

    https://www.artsy.net/article/artsy-editorial-sordid-truth-degass-ballet-dancers

    Replies: @Thulean Friend, @Mikel

    I never said all Ballet is sophisticated or sensual. You can take any artform, including Ballet, and make it vulgar. That article, while interesting, dealt with the behind-the-stage dynamics. The fact that prostitution flourished does not surprise me. In ancient Greece, most actresses were doing prostitution as sidegigs, too. Does that take anything away from the magnificient dramas of Aeschylus, Sophocles or Euripides? Prostitution was rife in Shakespeare’s London too. Does that diminish his works?

    We have to learn to seperate the lives of the people performing the art from the actual art. The article you linked contains some insights on this, as he rejects the dancers’ sexual attempts at gaining favors by instead focusing on his obsessive pursuit of perfection and pure beauty. A true artist.

    Life was cruel to French ballet dancers, and they didn’t have it much easier at the hands of Degas himself. Although the artist was known to reject the advances of his models, his callousness manifested in other ways. To capture the physicality and discipline of the dancers, Degas demanded his models pose for hours at a time, enduring excruciating discomfort as they held their contorted positions. He wanted to capture his “little monkey girls,” as he called them, “cracking their joints” at the barre. “I have perhaps too often considered woman as an animal,” he once told the painter Pierre Georges Jeanniot in a moment of revealing honesty.

    Degas was undoubtedly a merciless, cantankerous man. He was a misogynist—peers seemed almost afraid of his antagonism towards women—an especially troubling reputation considering the already sexist norms of his society. Contemporary viewers now delight in the artist’s profoundly evocative hand and brilliant, textural applications of color. While it’s possible to admire Degas’s dancers from a formal standpoint, this narrow appreciation ignores the abuse these sorry girls suffered. A closer look at these works shows how the painter did indeed cut through the ballet’s kitschy artifice, uncovering a milieu of misery, hardship, and raw beauty.

    While he should have treated them better, let us not be naïve in that the women were innocent when they were seeking favors for sex.

    • Replies: @Rosie
    @Thulean Friend


    While he should have treated them better, let us not be naïve in that the women were innocent when they were seeking favors for sex.
     
    Typical. Force young girls into prostitution and then blame the victim.

    (FTR, I didn't mean to belittle ballet. I don't have a problem with the fact that dancing is sexual.)

    Replies: @Thulean Friend

  137. @Epigon
    @Rosie

    Are you mentally impaired?

    Your line of thought would only make sense if feminism is a reaction to Sharia, basketball Americans, male degeneracy.

    It isn't, it is against traiditional society and family, and mobilised women for labour market, transforming them into drones and consumers.

    Replies: @Rosie, @TheTotallyAnonymous

    Don’t worry Epigon, Rosie isn’t mentally impaired, she’s just a woman.

  138. @reiner Tor
    @TheTotallyAnonymous


    on average men are obviously superior to women in strength, intelligence and so on
     
    Probably true to an extent, but without women, men would be nothing.

    Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous

    Probably true to an extent, but without women, men would be nothing.

    Men would only be nothing without women in the sense that more men could not come into this world. Otherwise, all the current men who have already been born could easily survive by themselves up to their final years without women. The problem is that women are necessary to make children. Therefore, gearing their behavior towards making babies and caring for them as they grow up is of a very high importance.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @TheTotallyAnonymous

    Men without women would have zero motivation to get anything beyond their drinks and maybe toys like Playstations or at most sports cars, but most guys wouldn't be much motivated to bother to work enough to get the latter. In general, unmarried (heterosexual) men are often unkempt and live in dirty apartments with very unhealthy habits, like staying up late at night and similar.

    Replies: @Epigon, @TheTotallyAnonymous, @Kent Nationalist, @peterAUS

  139. @Thulean Friend
    @Epigon

    Why not three?

    A) Stop excusing whorish behaviour or being indifferent to it. Even doing this first step is a step too far for many in this thread. Being an ironybro like reiner Tor isn't constructive either, it is just masked nihilism.

    B) Reject radical deracinated individualism and "fuck you, I got mine" attitudes. None of these issues will be solved by personal bravery. As I have repeatedly stressed in this thread, and which you apparently missed, is that we need social enforcement of different norms. The inescapable enabling factor of that requires collective action. Nobody is going to enforce anything on their own. That is why deracinated individualism has to be targeted, which is connected to liberal assumptions.

    C) Discarding the cult of the gymbro and elevating nerds. I'm serious. What got us into this mess was ideas, not that those who wanted us harm could benchpress more at the gym. Reading is a criminally underrated activity and it needs to be elevated as a social status symbol.
    Try shaming someone today for not reading. They will look at you funny as if you're from another century. It has become normalised not to read and there is no social shame attached to it. People who are uneducated are easily manipulated. I don't give a shit about accusations of elitism. Non-readers need to be shamed. Of course, this doesn't excuse being a fattie or a sloth. But too many of self-improvement debates start and end at the physical realm or at best delve into social matters. Too little is about erudition. I like the slogan knowledge is power. It needs to become the center of the debate again.

    I've tried to follow the KISS principle. There are countless of things to be done, but there's something to be said about following a core set of basic principles to a T.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @reiner Tor, @Epigon

    Discarding the cult of the gymbro and elevating nerds.

    That’s fine and dandy, but

    – currently nerds are already valued in society (just not as sexual partners, for which what you call “gymbro” is a useful thing), in fact, many new billionaires are nerds (like Zuckerberg)
    – people commenting here are already nerds. No need to work on your strength, you need to work on your weaknesses.
    – physically decrepit people cannot have healthy thoughts, at least not on average. The soyboy meme has some basis in reality (even if some soyboys, like you are apparently, might have more or less solid views).

  140. @TheTotallyAnonymous
    @reiner Tor


    Probably true to an extent, but without women, men would be nothing.

     

    Men would only be nothing without women in the sense that more men could not come into this world. Otherwise, all the current men who have already been born could easily survive by themselves up to their final years without women. The problem is that women are necessary to make children. Therefore, gearing their behavior towards making babies and caring for them as they grow up is of a very high importance.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    Men without women would have zero motivation to get anything beyond their drinks and maybe toys like Playstations or at most sports cars, but most guys wouldn’t be much motivated to bother to work enough to get the latter. In general, unmarried (heterosexual) men are often unkempt and live in dirty apartments with very unhealthy habits, like staying up late at night and similar.

    • Replies: @Epigon
    @reiner Tor

    This is correct. All of my motivation was originally external and aimed at impressing and attracting girls.

    Then I became a narcissist.

    , @TheTotallyAnonymous
    @reiner Tor


    Men without women would have zero motivation to get anything beyond their drinks and maybe toys like Playstations or at most sports cars, but most guys wouldn’t be much motivated to bother to work enough to get the latter.

     

    This is true, but it shouldn't be. It's depressing how beta most men are. Getting access to women shouldn't be the highest goal in life for men. Other things are much more important to sort out. Things like earning money, physical health, well-being of family, friends and so on should all come before access to women.

    In general, unmarried (heterosexual) men are often unkempt and live in dirty apartments with very unhealthy habits, like staying up late at night and similar.

     

    Feelz.

    Replies: @Brutis

    , @Kent Nationalist
    @reiner Tor


    Men without women would have zero motivation to get anything beyond their drinks and maybe toys like Playstations or at most sports cars, but most guys wouldn’t be much motivated to bother to work enough to get the latter.
     
    I think Tolstoy made the same observation in the Kreuzer Sonata

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

    , @peterAUS
    @reiner Tor


    Men without women would have zero motivation to get anything beyond their drinks and maybe toys like Playstations or at most sports cars, but most guys wouldn’t be much motivated to bother to work enough to get the latter. In general, unmarried (heterosexual) men are often unkempt and live in dirty apartments with very unhealthy habits, like staying up late at night and similar.
     
    Dumb.

    One of the best men I've met, true Alphas, real S.A.S. types, were unmarried men.
    Iron self-discipline, smart, decent jobs/careers, realistic look at the world. Self-reliant. Into adventure and combat sports, hunting, hiking etc.
    Hehe...you should walk a bit out of a big cosmopolitan area and see what kind of men live there.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

  141. @Thulean Friend
    @Epigon

    Why not three?

    A) Stop excusing whorish behaviour or being indifferent to it. Even doing this first step is a step too far for many in this thread. Being an ironybro like reiner Tor isn't constructive either, it is just masked nihilism.

    B) Reject radical deracinated individualism and "fuck you, I got mine" attitudes. None of these issues will be solved by personal bravery. As I have repeatedly stressed in this thread, and which you apparently missed, is that we need social enforcement of different norms. The inescapable enabling factor of that requires collective action. Nobody is going to enforce anything on their own. That is why deracinated individualism has to be targeted, which is connected to liberal assumptions.

    C) Discarding the cult of the gymbro and elevating nerds. I'm serious. What got us into this mess was ideas, not that those who wanted us harm could benchpress more at the gym. Reading is a criminally underrated activity and it needs to be elevated as a social status symbol.
    Try shaming someone today for not reading. They will look at you funny as if you're from another century. It has become normalised not to read and there is no social shame attached to it. People who are uneducated are easily manipulated. I don't give a shit about accusations of elitism. Non-readers need to be shamed. Of course, this doesn't excuse being a fattie or a sloth. But too many of self-improvement debates start and end at the physical realm or at best delve into social matters. Too little is about erudition. I like the slogan knowledge is power. It needs to become the center of the debate again.

    I've tried to follow the KISS principle. There are countless of things to be done, but there's something to be said about following a core set of basic principles to a T.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @reiner Tor, @Epigon

    By the way, most nerds in the 19th century were physically often on the level of moderately fit people today. There were simply no cars, elevators, rolling luggages, etc., people had to be in a reasonably good shape (and people actually doing physical work were very strong by today’s standards), even if they spent most of their days reading and writing books and letters and other documents.

  142. @reiner Tor
    @TheTotallyAnonymous

    Men without women would have zero motivation to get anything beyond their drinks and maybe toys like Playstations or at most sports cars, but most guys wouldn't be much motivated to bother to work enough to get the latter. In general, unmarried (heterosexual) men are often unkempt and live in dirty apartments with very unhealthy habits, like staying up late at night and similar.

    Replies: @Epigon, @TheTotallyAnonymous, @Kent Nationalist, @peterAUS

    This is correct. All of my motivation was originally external and aimed at impressing and attracting girls.

    Then I became a narcissist.

  143. @Thulean Friend
    @Epigon

    Why not three?

    A) Stop excusing whorish behaviour or being indifferent to it. Even doing this first step is a step too far for many in this thread. Being an ironybro like reiner Tor isn't constructive either, it is just masked nihilism.

    B) Reject radical deracinated individualism and "fuck you, I got mine" attitudes. None of these issues will be solved by personal bravery. As I have repeatedly stressed in this thread, and which you apparently missed, is that we need social enforcement of different norms. The inescapable enabling factor of that requires collective action. Nobody is going to enforce anything on their own. That is why deracinated individualism has to be targeted, which is connected to liberal assumptions.

    C) Discarding the cult of the gymbro and elevating nerds. I'm serious. What got us into this mess was ideas, not that those who wanted us harm could benchpress more at the gym. Reading is a criminally underrated activity and it needs to be elevated as a social status symbol.
    Try shaming someone today for not reading. They will look at you funny as if you're from another century. It has become normalised not to read and there is no social shame attached to it. People who are uneducated are easily manipulated. I don't give a shit about accusations of elitism. Non-readers need to be shamed. Of course, this doesn't excuse being a fattie or a sloth. But too many of self-improvement debates start and end at the physical realm or at best delve into social matters. Too little is about erudition. I like the slogan knowledge is power. It needs to become the center of the debate again.

    I've tried to follow the KISS principle. There are countless of things to be done, but there's something to be said about following a core set of basic principles to a T.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @reiner Tor, @Epigon

    The only KISS principle – Kill Islamists, Sluts and Sodomites.
    Sweden RIP.

    Jokes aside, I was genuinely interested in your ideas, opinions and they seem to be generally similar to mine.
    Personal as well as collective efforts are needed.

    • Agree: TheTotallyAnonymous
  144. @Anonymous
    @Priss Factor

    Herman Kahn wrote a book about how nuclear war was winnable in 1960. It's not a new idea:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Thermonuclear_War

    Replies: @Priss Factor, @Nodwink

    I’m a supporter of self-imposed nuclear annihilation, this being the first I’d heard of it: http://exiledonline.com/feature-story-the-case-for-nuclear-winter/

  145. @TheTotallyAnonymous
    @Epigon

    Since I used my LOL button on Rosie, I'll just state I would press the AGREE button if I could with your comments 107, 110 and obviously this one; 112.

    Also, I have bad news. The women in the Serb diaspora, at least from what I see, are quite degenerate and unrestrained by their men (not all, of course, and this is probably similar in Serbia but there the women are at least overwhelmingly kept within the tribe). This isn't because the men aren't capable of doing so, but it's more because they just go along with the naive illusions and beta male worshiping of women (more so from a vague sense of traditional obligation to "respect", respect in the genuine not meme sense, women to an unecessarily high level). In general though, a large amount of Serbs in the diaspora have quite a weak connection to their homeland. Most of them don't know the history of their people in depth and have not read serious Serb literature in detail, or they have not even really bothered at least to visit Serbia at all.

    It's partly because some of them are just Yugo-Communist Boomers who engage in failed parenting, struggles with money and inferior economic opportunity compared to certain others, the trauma and stress from the 1990's, contempt for Serbia from 2000-2012 (still ongoing for some) but also, of course, exposure to peak globohomo and the modern western "lifestyle". My impression is that compared to many other ethnic groups, Serbs are somewhat plastic with their culture and identity so they assimilate quite easily into their host countries. All in all, I would state that only around 20-40% of the Serb diaspora can truly be considered Serbian and capable of potentially repatriating back to their homeland in the right circumstances. Considering the total Serb diaspora outside the Balkans numbers around 2 million total, this would mean somewhere between a few hundred thousand (2-4 hundred thousand) and almost a million (7-9 hundred thousand) Serbs.


    Parents working long hours, going after meme careers
     
    Otherwise, would you care to explain what you mean by the meme careers?

    Replies: @The Big Red Scary, @TheTotallyAnonymous, @Epigon

    Diaspora has already been written off – look up Serb military record in USA forces, for example.

    Even single digits repatriating is a welcome bonus – except in case of being an agent in employ of their adopted homeland.

    Regarding career, the very concept of career (academic, business) being the centrepiece of existence and the true meaning of life is a meme, pushed by corporatist, materialist West. Revelation that this is untrue often comes far too late.

    • Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous
    @Epigon


    Diaspora has already been written off – look up Serb military record in USA forces, for example.

     

    LOL harsh. I still understand the reasoning though.

    Even single digits repatriating is a welcome bonus – except in case of being an agent in employ of their adopted homeland.

     

    Of course. I'm sure though that repatriation into the tens of thousands or even up to a few hundreds of thousands could be possible with serious effort (I actually listened to Vucic recently say that apparently 20 nurses were already repatriated to Novi Sad and that repatriating some Serbs to return from the diaspora would become a greater priority for him in the future). A few thousand Serbs could be repatriated quite easily, possible even completely organically with minimal effort. Don't underestimate the strengths of having a diaspora that is fond of its homeland and capable of genuinely helping it.

    For instance, I find that with Serbian charities for Serbs on Kosovo or just poor Serbs in general, the diaspora people are the largest source of donations, obviously. I don't know if you donate to any charities, but just take a look at the SrbizaSrbe (I checked that it was legit and not a scam of course) charity whose specialty is in helping lift Serb families from across the Balkans with many kids out of poverty, and you will see where the majority of donations come from. This charity is very good because it's name is by default based (Also read everything they write about their goals, purpose, etc), plus, they also claim that if they help enough many child Serb families out of poverty, in the future, they will start to subsidize young Serb women to have more kids (something the government should be doing, really).


    Regarding career, the very concept of career (academic, business) being the centrepiece of existence and the true meaning of life is a meme, pushed by corporatist, materialist West. Revelation that this is untrue often comes far too late.

     

    I couldn't agree more. It's cancerous how many of the people I know are infected with this mentality. I personally struggle to resist this pressure from my own family. I don't know what your opinion on finishing university to get a job is, or university in general, but I've became quite disillusioned and tired of it all even though I'm stuck in the middle of a degree (finance) I'm "expected" to finish (I've also begun to seriously slack off into an awkward state of life paralysis this year). If it were purely up to me, I would instantly quit just to commit to private business efforts because success in that sphere would be well worth it, but unfortunately that's not really an option. I personally can't stand the thought of having to work from 9am-5pm on some arbitrarily pre-assigned mundane garbage in an office cell while taking orders from some cuck. Hard work and effort is completely fine in my opinion, as long as it is placed towards things that are worthwhile. Anyway, I haven't been to Serbia and the Balkans for a long time (will go next year) and I'm not really sure what I'm going to do in the future but I need to seriously change something quickly if my future life is going to be pleasant ...
  146. AK, are you familiar with Vox Ukraine?

    AK: No.

  147. @reiner Tor
    @TheTotallyAnonymous

    Men without women would have zero motivation to get anything beyond their drinks and maybe toys like Playstations or at most sports cars, but most guys wouldn't be much motivated to bother to work enough to get the latter. In general, unmarried (heterosexual) men are often unkempt and live in dirty apartments with very unhealthy habits, like staying up late at night and similar.

    Replies: @Epigon, @TheTotallyAnonymous, @Kent Nationalist, @peterAUS

    Men without women would have zero motivation to get anything beyond their drinks and maybe toys like Playstations or at most sports cars, but most guys wouldn’t be much motivated to bother to work enough to get the latter.

    This is true, but it shouldn’t be. It’s depressing how beta most men are. Getting access to women shouldn’t be the highest goal in life for men. Other things are much more important to sort out. Things like earning money, physical health, well-being of family, friends and so on should all come before access to women.

    In general, unmarried (heterosexual) men are often unkempt and live in dirty apartments with very unhealthy habits, like staying up late at night and similar.

    Feelz.

    • Replies: @Brutis
    @TheTotallyAnonymous

    Thing is, and a black Nationalist commented on this:

    Three ways of proving manhood are

    Sex Violence Money

    The latter two are essentially closed off to most men.

    Even if you do Sof you're someone's bitch
    You won't be a millionaire with fuck you money

    If you can't pull in girls and have eccentric interests most of society will avoid you.

    This is doubly true in fake gay countries where the Borg rules and everyone is assimilated to the bug man lifestyle.

    Women are the centrepiece of society even if they're mostly narcissistic and retarded.

    Pussy feels good, but ultimately being able to have balls and secure a small fiefdom would get you it anyway.

    Instead everyone is cucked by the libtard state and the egregious thing is the elite are interested in little boys not hot cunt LOL!

  148. @TheTotallyAnonymous
    @reiner Tor


    Men without women would have zero motivation to get anything beyond their drinks and maybe toys like Playstations or at most sports cars, but most guys wouldn’t be much motivated to bother to work enough to get the latter.

     

    This is true, but it shouldn't be. It's depressing how beta most men are. Getting access to women shouldn't be the highest goal in life for men. Other things are much more important to sort out. Things like earning money, physical health, well-being of family, friends and so on should all come before access to women.

    In general, unmarried (heterosexual) men are often unkempt and live in dirty apartments with very unhealthy habits, like staying up late at night and similar.

     

    Feelz.

    Replies: @Brutis

    Thing is, and a black Nationalist commented on this:

    Three ways of proving manhood are

    Sex Violence Money

    The latter two are essentially closed off to most men.

    Even if you do Sof you’re someone’s bitch
    You won’t be a millionaire with fuck you money

    If you can’t pull in girls and have eccentric interests most of society will avoid you.

    This is doubly true in fake gay countries where the Borg rules and everyone is assimilated to the bug man lifestyle.

    Women are the centrepiece of society even if they’re mostly narcissistic and retarded.

    Pussy feels good, but ultimately being able to have balls and secure a small fiefdom would get you it anyway.

    Instead everyone is cucked by the libtard state and the egregious thing is the elite are interested in little boys not hot cunt LOL!

  149. @reiner Tor
    @TheTotallyAnonymous

    Men without women would have zero motivation to get anything beyond their drinks and maybe toys like Playstations or at most sports cars, but most guys wouldn't be much motivated to bother to work enough to get the latter. In general, unmarried (heterosexual) men are often unkempt and live in dirty apartments with very unhealthy habits, like staying up late at night and similar.

    Replies: @Epigon, @TheTotallyAnonymous, @Kent Nationalist, @peterAUS

    Men without women would have zero motivation to get anything beyond their drinks and maybe toys like Playstations or at most sports cars, but most guys wouldn’t be much motivated to bother to work enough to get the latter.

    I think Tolstoy made the same observation in the Kreuzer Sonata

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    @Kent Nationalist

    We shouldn’t forget that in his later years (after he wrote his best pieces) Tolstoy was a perfect example of “I am not opinionated, I am just always right”.

  150. @The Big Red Scary
    Recently, I went to a conference in Akademgorodok, a scientific suburb of Novosibirsk built in the late Khrushchev era. Hands down this is the nicest small Russian town I have seen. Clean, orderly, polite. Good food and coffee.

    Novosibirsk itself, while having a few nice streets, is in general rather shabby. Philip Philipovich Preobrazhensky was right. I do not love the proletariat. Intelligent, conscientious people have a duty to take up the burden of organizing society.

    Anyhow, after that visit, I finally got around to reading Spufford's Red Plenty, part of which is set in Akademgorodok. One plot point that stuck out, rather suspiciously, is when the geneticist studying mutations discovers two cohorts of people exhibiting an increased rate of mutation: a cohort growing up (or born?) during the Civil War and another growing up during Stalin's Terror. Notably she found no increased rate of mutation from the cohort who grew up during the Second World War. Supposedly these were the discoveries of the real-life model for this character, Raisa Berg, but I haven't pursued that yet.

    A few thoughts.

    First, it would certainly be interesting to look at genetic traces of major historical events. Does anyone know of other examples? In this content, I've only ever heard of fat content statistics, not mutation rates.

    Second, while it is not surprising that the Civil War left a mark on Russian DNA, I'm very skeptical that Stalin would have left a more noticeable mark than Hitler. Rough numbers from Google: 8 million dead in the civil war, 600,000 to 1.2 million dead from Stalin's Terror, and about 20 million dead during the German invasion. So Stalin's Terror, while no doubt miserable to live through, was incomparable in magnitude to both the Civil War and to the Second World War.

    Replies: @Thulean Friend, @AP

    So Stalin’s Terror, while no doubt miserable to live through, was incomparable in magnitude to both the Civil War and to the Second World War.

    Yes, but Stalin specifically targeted smart and conscientious hard-working people. Hitler’s victims were probably more evenly distributed.

    • Replies: @Epigon
    @AP


    Stalin specifically targeted smart and conscientious hard-working people.
     
    Are you sure about this? This would be true for the last "kulaks" that were extinguished in the Great purge, but I wouldn't extend it to the rest.

    Replies: @AP

  151. @AP
    @The Big Red Scary


    So Stalin’s Terror, while no doubt miserable to live through, was incomparable in magnitude to both the Civil War and to the Second World War.
     
    Yes, but Stalin specifically targeted smart and conscientious hard-working people. Hitler's victims were probably more evenly distributed.

    Replies: @Epigon

    Stalin specifically targeted smart and conscientious hard-working people.

    Are you sure about this? This would be true for the last “kulaks” that were extinguished in the Great purge, but I wouldn’t extend it to the rest.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Epigon

    Yes, kulaks of course, but also engineers, scientists, better military officers, nobles who had survived the early 20’s terror, people who had done well during NEP.

  152. @The Big Red Scary
    @Rosie

    My daughter likes dancing, and we spent some time looking for a decent dance studio where she could take a class, but failed. All of the dance studios in our area offered either pole-dancing and belly-dancing at the same time as the kiddy classes, so that my daughter would see all of the hussies as she came and went, or were hyper-competitive and demanded a time commitment that we felt was inappropriate at her age. Instead, we are looking into the soft version of Wushu (kung fu for princesses), with ribbons and pretty traditional Chinese music.

    Replies: @AP, @Dmitry

    Did you try rhythmic gymnastics? We did that for one of the kids. The instructor was from Russia, as were most of the kids’ parents.

    • Replies: @Anon
    @AP

    I wonder if "ethnic" stuff in general might be a good fit here whether Russian, Chinese, Indian (bharatanatyam etc.) etc. . I don't know if TBRS is in Russia, US, or somewhere else.

    Rhythmic gymnastics, though I knew nothing about it until ten minutes ago, certainly seems at first glance somewhat healthier and less hackle-raising than "regular" ladies' gymnastics here in the US, and because it's a less popular form of gymnastics in this country it's probably also less competitively oriented.

  153. @Epigon
    @TheTotallyAnonymous

    Diaspora has already been written off - look up Serb military record in USA forces, for example.

    Even single digits repatriating is a welcome bonus - except in case of being an agent in employ of their adopted homeland.


    Regarding career, the very concept of career (academic, business) being the centrepiece of existence and the true meaning of life is a meme, pushed by corporatist, materialist West. Revelation that this is untrue often comes far too late.

    Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous

    Diaspora has already been written off – look up Serb military record in USA forces, for example.

    LOL harsh. I still understand the reasoning though.

    Even single digits repatriating is a welcome bonus – except in case of being an agent in employ of their adopted homeland.

    Of course. I’m sure though that repatriation into the tens of thousands or even up to a few hundreds of thousands could be possible with serious effort (I actually listened to Vucic recently say that apparently 20 nurses were already repatriated to Novi Sad and that repatriating some Serbs to return from the diaspora would become a greater priority for him in the future). A few thousand Serbs could be repatriated quite easily, possible even completely organically with minimal effort. Don’t underestimate the strengths of having a diaspora that is fond of its homeland and capable of genuinely helping it.

    For instance, I find that with Serbian charities for Serbs on Kosovo or just poor Serbs in general, the diaspora people are the largest source of donations, obviously. I don’t know if you donate to any charities, but just take a look at the SrbizaSrbe (I checked that it was legit and not a scam of course) charity whose specialty is in helping lift Serb families from across the Balkans with many kids out of poverty, and you will see where the majority of donations come from. This charity is very good because it’s name is by default based (Also read everything they write about their goals, purpose, etc), plus, they also claim that if they help enough many child Serb families out of poverty, in the future, they will start to subsidize young Serb women to have more kids (something the government should be doing, really).

    Regarding career, the very concept of career (academic, business) being the centrepiece of existence and the true meaning of life is a meme, pushed by corporatist, materialist West. Revelation that this is untrue often comes far too late.

    I couldn’t agree more. It’s cancerous how many of the people I know are infected with this mentality. I personally struggle to resist this pressure from my own family. I don’t know what your opinion on finishing university to get a job is, or university in general, but I’ve became quite disillusioned and tired of it all even though I’m stuck in the middle of a degree (finance) I’m “expected” to finish (I’ve also begun to seriously slack off into an awkward state of life paralysis this year). If it were purely up to me, I would instantly quit just to commit to private business efforts because success in that sphere would be well worth it, but unfortunately that’s not really an option. I personally can’t stand the thought of having to work from 9am-5pm on some arbitrarily pre-assigned mundane garbage in an office cell while taking orders from some cuck. Hard work and effort is completely fine in my opinion, as long as it is placed towards things that are worthwhile. Anyway, I haven’t been to Serbia and the Balkans for a long time (will go next year) and I’m not really sure what I’m going to do in the future but I need to seriously change something quickly if my future life is going to be pleasant …

  154. @Thulean Friend
    @Rosie

    I never said all Ballet is sophisticated or sensual. You can take any artform, including Ballet, and make it vulgar. That article, while interesting, dealt with the behind-the-stage dynamics. The fact that prostitution flourished does not surprise me. In ancient Greece, most actresses were doing prostitution as sidegigs, too. Does that take anything away from the magnificient dramas of Aeschylus, Sophocles or Euripides? Prostitution was rife in Shakespeare's London too. Does that diminish his works?

    We have to learn to seperate the lives of the people performing the art from the actual art. The article you linked contains some insights on this, as he rejects the dancers' sexual attempts at gaining favors by instead focusing on his obsessive pursuit of perfection and pure beauty. A true artist.


    Life was cruel to French ballet dancers, and they didn’t have it much easier at the hands of Degas himself. Although the artist was known to reject the advances of his models, his callousness manifested in other ways. To capture the physicality and discipline of the dancers, Degas demanded his models pose for hours at a time, enduring excruciating discomfort as they held their contorted positions. He wanted to capture his “little monkey girls,” as he called them, “cracking their joints” at the barre. “I have perhaps too often considered woman as an animal,” he once told the painter Pierre Georges Jeanniot in a moment of revealing honesty.

    Degas was undoubtedly a merciless, cantankerous man. He was a misogynist—peers seemed almost afraid of his antagonism towards women—an especially troubling reputation considering the already sexist norms of his society. Contemporary viewers now delight in the artist’s profoundly evocative hand and brilliant, textural applications of color. While it’s possible to admire Degas’s dancers from a formal standpoint, this narrow appreciation ignores the abuse these sorry girls suffered. A closer look at these works shows how the painter did indeed cut through the ballet’s kitschy artifice, uncovering a milieu of misery, hardship, and raw beauty.
     

    While he should have treated them better, let us not be naïve in that the women were innocent when they were seeking favors for sex.

    Replies: @Rosie

    While he should have treated them better, let us not be naïve in that the women were innocent when they were seeking favors for sex.

    Typical. Force young girls into prostitution and then blame the victim.

    (FTR, I didn’t mean to belittle ballet. I don’t have a problem with the fact that dancing is sexual.)

    • Replies: @Thulean Friend
    @Rosie

    I find it amusing that you seemingly share the same assumptions on women with the men you often detract; namely that women are not agents of their own actions and any sexual activities they engage in must necessarily be result of male coercion. If you fully internalise this mindset, then it means that women have to be protected from men. It also infantalises women, robbing them of autonomy.

    My view is that women are complicated being in their own sense, and are not automatically victims in all circumstances. It is perfectly possible for ballet dancers to try gaining an upper hand in their profession by trying to use sex as an instrument to further their own career. They evidently tried that with Degas and to his great credit, his artistic instincts were far too strong to let inferior dancers try to sway him with carnal desires and allow those unworthy of attention a better career path. Of course this doesn't fit squarely with your view of women as perpetual victims in all situations. In this regard you are quite similar to feminists.

    And dancing can be sexual, but is not inherently sexual. It depends what the dancers involved do.

    Replies: @Rosie

  155. AK might be interested in this book?

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/chinese-spies-review-the-peoples-secret-service-11568577232

    (have no idea how credible its claims are)

    Chinese Spies’ Review: The People’s Secret Service

    AK: Thanks, but too many other things to read.

    [MORE]

    In “Chinese Spies,” Roger Faligot traces the history of the modern Chinese secret service. It is a history of espionage, “first against the French and British in the Shanghai Concessions, then against Chiang Kai-shek ’s Kuomintang and spies from Japan.” It culminates with China’s efforts in waging modern cyber warfare and maintaining what the author argues is the largest—and probably the most assertive—intelligence service in the world. It all began, we are told, with the creation of the Central Committee Special Branch, in November 1927, under the control of Zhou Enlai.

    Mr. Faligot has been chronicling the activities of various intelligence agencies—a notoriously difficult subject to research—for almost 40 years. He estimates that at the height of the Cold War between 40% and 60% of Chinese diplomats were involved in intelligence, compared to 20% of their Russian counterparts. This in addition to the many Chinese students and business executives operating under what is known as “nonofficial cover.”

    China has since become one of the world’s major intelligence players, especially in the area of signals intelligence, by eagerly forging alliances with whichever country serves its purpose. At first this was the Soviet Union, which in the 1920s and ’30s helped train many of China’s operatives. Then it was the U.S. and West Germany, which during the Cold War assisted China in monitoring the Soviet Union. Now Beijing is again aligned with Moscow in their common efforts to spy on the U.S.

    According to Mr. Faligot, China’s intelligence services are focused on protecting the state, suppressing dissent within the state (internet users, for example, are required to register with the government), and involving itself in the domestic affairs of other countries. Each of the three services—state security (guoanbu), public security (gonganbu) and army intelligence (PLA2)—is appointed a technical director, who handles the daily operations, and a political commissar, who is responsible, we are told, “for ensuring that the organization’s ideological orientation conforms to the strategy decreed by the CCP.” Between them the three services ran—indeed, often owned—Beijing’s largest hotels, where all the public rooms and bedrooms were bugged. At the Beijing Hotel, for instance, “telephone ladies” were constantly on call, ready to translate whatever language was being intercepted.

    A major focus for the Chinese over the past 40 years has been economic espionage. In 1982 the Ministry of Foreign Economic Relations and Trade was set up to offer cover for spies abroad. Many of these agents were trained at a school specializing in industrial espionage. The Chinese were also an early adopter of cyber warfare, attacking Mitsubishi and Sony in 2005.

    Within his framework of an institutional history, Mr. Faligot relates a series of case histories. Among them is the story of Larry Wu-Tai Chin, a U.S. citizen of Chinese origin who worked for 30 years as a translator for the CIA. Chin also, until his retirement in 1981, supplied high-grade intelligence to the Chinese. Despite being stationed at CIA headquarters in Langley, Va., Chin mostly met his handlers in restaurants and clothing shops in Toronto. He also had as an escape contact a Catholic priest in New York. “In an emergency,” Chin was to go to Manhattan and meet this priest “in the confessional of his Transfiguration Church in Chinatown.”

    Originally published in French in 2008, “Chinese Spies” was translated into English, from the updated fourth edition, by Natasha Lehrer. The book includes details on the extent of the casualties inflicted during the Tiananmen Square massacre. Over the years, the casualty numbers have fluctuated from several hundred to several thousand. Mr. Faligot quotes a telegram dated June 5, 1989—one day after the military began to clear the square—sent from the British ambassador in China to the U.K. Foreign Office, already acknowledging a “minimum estimate of civilian dead 10,000.”

    There are also stories about the fate of the dissidents after the massacre, and of those who dared to help them. One French intelligence officer told the author the Chinese services responded “with no compunction” against certain members of the Western community who were involved in opposition politics. In Hong Kong, Mr. Faligot reports, the wives of the Swiss, American and Mexican consuls all fell from tall buildings under mysterious circumstances.

    One expert tells the author that Hua Guofeng, the nominal leader after Mao Zedong ’s death in 1976, was in fact Mao’s biological son, and that Hua’s “inexplicable promotion to the rank of security minister and president” was the result of a secret clause in the late leader’s will. Another journalist shares with Mr. Faligot fresh revelations about the 1999 “accidental” American bombing of the Chinese embassy in Belgrade—now exposed as a joint command post with the Serbians.

    With increasing tensions in the trade war between America and China, concerns about the future of democracy in Hong Kong, and the controversy surrounding Huawei’s 5G mobile networks, “Chinese Spies” is a very timely and important book. Given the pace of recent events, I hope it is fully updated again soon.

  156. @Kent Nationalist
    @inertial

    Peak deracination

    Replies: @inertial

    We eat weird stuff if you think about it.

    What is egg? Reproductive organ of a bird whose purpose is to contain embrios.

    What is dairy? Secretion of certain reproductive glands, in various stages of decomposition.

    And what is meat? Muscle tissue of dead animals, usually partly decomposed as well.

    By contrast, that fake burger thing is merely a mixture of grains and legumes. Not clear why it would be any more disgusting than the things above.

    • Replies: @Epigon
    @inertial

    Eggs and tits are not reproductive organs.
    Grains and beans are.

    , @songbird
    @inertial


    What is egg? Reproductive organ of a bird whose purpose is to contain embrios.
     
    Technically, an egg is a giant single-cell, with half the DNA required to be a normal cell, which the chicken sloughs off as rent.

    Europeans actually bred chickens to lay more eggs because of the old strictures of Lent, as it used to be practiced. So, modern chickens, partly have a built-in purpose to lay eggs for people to eat.

    And what is meat? Muscle tissue of dead animals, usually partly decomposed as well.
     
    Only makes me hungry, thinking about it.
    , @reiner Tor
    @inertial

    Only milk is somewhat unnatural (we are probably not fully adapted to consuming it), meat and eggs are things many animals regularly consume.

    The synthetic meat is highly processed food.

    Replies: @inertial

  157. @inertial
    @Kent Nationalist

    We eat weird stuff if you think about it.

    What is egg? Reproductive organ of a bird whose purpose is to contain embrios.

    What is dairy? Secretion of certain reproductive glands, in various stages of decomposition.

    And what is meat? Muscle tissue of dead animals, usually partly decomposed as well.

    By contrast, that fake burger thing is merely a mixture of grains and legumes. Not clear why it would be any more disgusting than the things above.

    Replies: @Epigon, @songbird, @reiner Tor

    Eggs and tits are not reproductive organs.
    Grains and beans are.

  158. @Thulean Friend
    @melanf

    You're trying to cover the issue in fatalism. And it is quite interesting that a lot of Russian men in this thread have defended these social norms where whoredom is celebrated/normalised, or at least put up their hands in resignation. A society's women act the way they are allowed to by their men. Feminists are not wrong in this, which is why they obsess over men's attitudes.

    There is nothing automatic about dressing like a hooker, and it doesn't serve anyone trying to pretend otherwise. If men show permissive attitudes, women will take the cue. It's that simple. This is a social choice made by the men in that society and not taking a stand against something is also taking an implicit stand in favor of it, by allowing it to happen.

    Replies: @melanf

    You’re trying to cover the issue in fatalism. And it is quite interesting that a lot of Russian men in this thread have defended these social norms where whoredom is celebrated/normalised

    These half-naked girls are just stupid (and in most cases ugly) girls trying to attract attention. If you make these girls wear long dresses, they won’t get any smarter. Again whoredom does not improve if this phenomenon is hidden under long clothes. Because of this, I do not understand why these half-naked girls should bother me? Rather, on the contrary such clothing is a marker of stupidity, so I know who to avoid.

    • Replies: @anonymous coward
    @melanf


    Again whoredom does not improve if this phenomenon is hidden under long clothes.
     
    Are you retarded? (Rhetorical question, don't answer that.)

    Regardless of what morally lax and/or criminal people think, stopping their ability to act out on their impulses should be society's paramount priority.
  159. @inertial
    @Kent Nationalist

    We eat weird stuff if you think about it.

    What is egg? Reproductive organ of a bird whose purpose is to contain embrios.

    What is dairy? Secretion of certain reproductive glands, in various stages of decomposition.

    And what is meat? Muscle tissue of dead animals, usually partly decomposed as well.

    By contrast, that fake burger thing is merely a mixture of grains and legumes. Not clear why it would be any more disgusting than the things above.

    Replies: @Epigon, @songbird, @reiner Tor

    What is egg? Reproductive organ of a bird whose purpose is to contain embrios.

    Technically, an egg is a giant single-cell, with half the DNA required to be a normal cell, which the chicken sloughs off as rent.

    Europeans actually bred chickens to lay more eggs because of the old strictures of Lent, as it used to be practiced. So, modern chickens, partly have a built-in purpose to lay eggs for people to eat.

    And what is meat? Muscle tissue of dead animals, usually partly decomposed as well.

    Only makes me hungry, thinking about it.

  160. @Rosie
    @Thulean Friend


    While he should have treated them better, let us not be naïve in that the women were innocent when they were seeking favors for sex.
     
    Typical. Force young girls into prostitution and then blame the victim.

    (FTR, I didn't mean to belittle ballet. I don't have a problem with the fact that dancing is sexual.)

    Replies: @Thulean Friend

    I find it amusing that you seemingly share the same assumptions on women with the men you often detract; namely that women are not agents of their own actions and any sexual activities they engage in must necessarily be result of male coercion. If you fully internalise this mindset, then it means that women have to be protected from men. It also infantalises women, robbing them of autonomy.

    My view is that women are complicated being in their own sense, and are not automatically victims in all circumstances. It is perfectly possible for ballet dancers to try gaining an upper hand in their profession by trying to use sex as an instrument to further their own career. They evidently tried that with Degas and to his great credit, his artistic instincts were far too strong to let inferior dancers try to sway him with carnal desires and allow those unworthy of attention a better career path. Of course this doesn’t fit squarely with your view of women as perpetual victims in all situations. In this regard you are quite similar to feminists.

    And dancing can be sexual, but is not inherently sexual. It depends what the dancers involved do.

    • Replies: @Rosie
    @Thulean Friend


    I find it amusing that you seemingly share the same assumptions on women with the men you often detract; namely that women are not agents of their own actions and any sexual activities they engage in must necessarily be result of male coercion.
     
    I don't think it's necessarily a result of coercion, but rather desperation. When there are no minimum wage laws and no laws against sexual harrassment, you are going to get propositioned by lecherous old men with cash to spare, and you are most likely not going to feel at liberty to politely decline, especially if your whole family would be destitute without your income.

    It all depends on the balance of power between the two parties. If you want to be a prostitute, you can be a prostitute. If you want to be a ballet dancer, you can be a ballet dancer. You shouldn't have to be a prostitute to be a ballet dancer.


    And dancing can be sexual, but is not inherently sexual. It depends what the dancers involved do.
     
    I disagree. Certainly, sexuality can be expressed through dance in more or less vulgar and crass ways, but the sexual expression is there all the same.

    Replies: @Rosie

  161. @inertial
    @Kent Nationalist

    We eat weird stuff if you think about it.

    What is egg? Reproductive organ of a bird whose purpose is to contain embrios.

    What is dairy? Secretion of certain reproductive glands, in various stages of decomposition.

    And what is meat? Muscle tissue of dead animals, usually partly decomposed as well.

    By contrast, that fake burger thing is merely a mixture of grains and legumes. Not clear why it would be any more disgusting than the things above.

    Replies: @Epigon, @songbird, @reiner Tor

    Only milk is somewhat unnatural (we are probably not fully adapted to consuming it), meat and eggs are things many animals regularly consume.

    The synthetic meat is highly processed food.

    • Replies: @inertial
    @reiner Tor

    I doubt it's any more processed than regular beef patties.

    And what's with obsession with processed food? Almost everything humans have been eating for the last few millennia is "highly processed" (as well as "genetically modified.") This is especially true for meat.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson

  162. @Thulean Friend
    @Dmitry


    but in Russia though, schoolgirls are twerking without any direct social contact of African Americans.
     
    And why would they need any direct social contract. I clicked on your link and found these two as recommendations:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fW3fBHO76XA

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gL5zzIkrXMc

    These are talent shows with tens of millions of views with a huge upvote share. Russian society is sexually permissive and Russian men allow their women to act like glorified hookers on national TV. I'm not saying we are better, we clearly aren't, but in this regard Russia is not any different from the West. And my point is that this is not an automatic rule. I don't buy the whole "lol girls just wanna have fun" excuse. This kind of shit is promoted nonstop in the media. It didn't happen organically. More importantly, the men allow it to happen. You have even seen that kind of justification in this thread.

    The same kind of culture is beamed into other parts of the non-white world, but there men impose a social cost to acting like this. In Russia you can get on talent shows acting like a whore. This is a social choice by the men of their respective societies and let's not pretend otherwise.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Brutis, @Dmitry

    It’s not especially permissiveness, but just where there is higher safety for women, they (i.e. exhibitionist subsection of the female population, which is not necessarily a majority) can attract attention without danger.

    In Russia, overall crime is higher than Western Europe, but the attitude for women is a comfortable one as in Western Europe.

    For example, Armenian woman I have heard personally, (not just because of the recent story) that she is happy she grew up in Russia, because the attitude for women is frightening for her in Armenia.

    Or you can see in Japan, where personal safety is very high, how women behave similarly. (On the other hand, in India, the Middle East, of Africa, half of people would likely be raped with clothes like this – in Japan the probability of being raped is maybe lower than strikes by lightening).

  163. @melanf
    @Thulean Friend


    You’re trying to cover the issue in fatalism. And it is quite interesting that a lot of Russian men in this thread have defended these social norms where whoredom is celebrated/normalised
     
    These half-naked girls are just stupid (and in most cases ugly) girls trying to attract attention. If you make these girls wear long dresses, they won't get any smarter. Again whoredom does not improve if this phenomenon is hidden under long clothes. Because of this, I do not understand why these half-naked girls should bother me? Rather, on the contrary such clothing is a marker of stupidity, so I know who to avoid.

    Replies: @anonymous coward

    Again whoredom does not improve if this phenomenon is hidden under long clothes.

    Are you retarded? (Rhetorical question, don’t answer that.)

    Regardless of what morally lax and/or criminal people think, stopping their ability to act out on their impulses should be society’s paramount priority.

  164. @Thulean Friend
    @Rosie

    I find it amusing that you seemingly share the same assumptions on women with the men you often detract; namely that women are not agents of their own actions and any sexual activities they engage in must necessarily be result of male coercion. If you fully internalise this mindset, then it means that women have to be protected from men. It also infantalises women, robbing them of autonomy.

    My view is that women are complicated being in their own sense, and are not automatically victims in all circumstances. It is perfectly possible for ballet dancers to try gaining an upper hand in their profession by trying to use sex as an instrument to further their own career. They evidently tried that with Degas and to his great credit, his artistic instincts were far too strong to let inferior dancers try to sway him with carnal desires and allow those unworthy of attention a better career path. Of course this doesn't fit squarely with your view of women as perpetual victims in all situations. In this regard you are quite similar to feminists.

    And dancing can be sexual, but is not inherently sexual. It depends what the dancers involved do.

    Replies: @Rosie

    I find it amusing that you seemingly share the same assumptions on women with the men you often detract; namely that women are not agents of their own actions and any sexual activities they engage in must necessarily be result of male coercion.

    I don’t think it’s necessarily a result of coercion, but rather desperation. When there are no minimum wage laws and no laws against sexual harrassment, you are going to get propositioned by lecherous old men with cash to spare, and you are most likely not going to feel at liberty to politely decline, especially if your whole family would be destitute without your income.

    It all depends on the balance of power between the two parties. If you want to be a prostitute, you can be a prostitute. If you want to be a ballet dancer, you can be a ballet dancer. You shouldn’t have to be a prostitute to be a ballet dancer.

    And dancing can be sexual, but is not inherently sexual. It depends what the dancers involved do.

    I disagree. Certainly, sexuality can be expressed through dance in more or less vulgar and crass ways, but the sexual expression is there all the same.

    • Replies: @Rosie
    @Rosie

    TF, it occurs to me that men might underestimate the revulsion women feel at the prospect of selling our bodies. If I am not mistaken, only like 5% of women have ever done it. We would rather: scrub toilets, wait tables, wipe old people's behinds after they go to the bathroom, etc. Generally, only the utmost desperation will induce a woman to do this, generally drug addiction or siblings facing hunger or needing medical care they couldn't otherwise afford.

    So yes, the assumption that duress was involved is actually very much warranted.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @Dmitry, @Anonymous

  165. @The Big Red Scary
    @Rosie

    My daughter likes dancing, and we spent some time looking for a decent dance studio where she could take a class, but failed. All of the dance studios in our area offered either pole-dancing and belly-dancing at the same time as the kiddy classes, so that my daughter would see all of the hussies as she came and went, or were hyper-competitive and demanded a time commitment that we felt was inappropriate at her age. Instead, we are looking into the soft version of Wushu (kung fu for princesses), with ribbons and pretty traditional Chinese music.

    Replies: @AP, @Dmitry

    Well at least, they did not have pole dancing class for children in your gym…

  166. @Rosie
    @Thulean Friend


    I find it amusing that you seemingly share the same assumptions on women with the men you often detract; namely that women are not agents of their own actions and any sexual activities they engage in must necessarily be result of male coercion.
     
    I don't think it's necessarily a result of coercion, but rather desperation. When there are no minimum wage laws and no laws against sexual harrassment, you are going to get propositioned by lecherous old men with cash to spare, and you are most likely not going to feel at liberty to politely decline, especially if your whole family would be destitute without your income.

    It all depends on the balance of power between the two parties. If you want to be a prostitute, you can be a prostitute. If you want to be a ballet dancer, you can be a ballet dancer. You shouldn't have to be a prostitute to be a ballet dancer.


    And dancing can be sexual, but is not inherently sexual. It depends what the dancers involved do.
     
    I disagree. Certainly, sexuality can be expressed through dance in more or less vulgar and crass ways, but the sexual expression is there all the same.

    Replies: @Rosie

    TF, it occurs to me that men might underestimate the revulsion women feel at the prospect of selling our bodies. If I am not mistaken, only like 5% of women have ever done it. We would rather: scrub toilets, wait tables, wipe old people’s behinds after they go to the bathroom, etc. Generally, only the utmost desperation will induce a woman to do this, generally drug addiction or siblings facing hunger or needing medical care they couldn’t otherwise afford.

    So yes, the assumption that duress was involved is actually very much warranted.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    @Rosie

    This is exaggerated, and of course it depends on the buyer and the amount in question. A woman might recoil at selling her body for $50, but for $5,000 she might feel differently. I doubt the hookers Charlie Sheen employed recoiled at the thought of having sex with him either, but the same hookers no doubt recoil at the thought of having sex with a homely, overweight, middle-aged nobody.

    Relatively few women become outright prostitutes, but a lot of women could be considered semi-pro hookers these days with things like Seeking Arrangement, Twitch streaming, Dubai girls, etc. There also appears to be no shortage of women stripping or working in pornography.

    More women would also be inclined to turn to outright prostitution if it were legal, safe, and guaranteed to be anonymous.

    The website Tag the Sponsor documents Dubai girls: http://tagthesponsor.com/home-page/

    Replies: @Rosie

    , @Dmitry
    @Rosie

    According to a history book I have read about Spain - in 1950s Spain, there were more than 500,000 prostitutes in a country of only 28 million people.

    Replies: @Rosie

    , @Anonymous
    @Rosie

    Women "selling their bodies" can encompass a wide spectrum of behavior and conditions though.

    At one end, it can involve dangerous "streetwalking" and operating in dirty brothels for very low pay and dealing with dangerous, unsanitary, disgusting conditions and customers. The vast majority of women will certainly recoil from this and only the most desperate women will pursue it.

    At the other end, you have high-end "modeling" and "escorting" where the women sell sex or have extended relationships with wealthier men for very high pay and in luxury accommodations such as luxury hotels and the residences of wealthy men. Certainly more women find this more tolerable than the aforementioned "streetwalking", although it's also the case that this option is open to fewer women.

    Also at the other end is not the formal transactional selling of sex, but women seeking relationships with men who are well off or at least economically secure.

  167. @Epigon
    @AP


    Stalin specifically targeted smart and conscientious hard-working people.
     
    Are you sure about this? This would be true for the last "kulaks" that were extinguished in the Great purge, but I wouldn't extend it to the rest.

    Replies: @AP

    Yes, kulaks of course, but also engineers, scientists, better military officers, nobles who had survived the early 20’s terror, people who had done well during NEP.

  168. @Rosie
    @Rosie

    TF, it occurs to me that men might underestimate the revulsion women feel at the prospect of selling our bodies. If I am not mistaken, only like 5% of women have ever done it. We would rather: scrub toilets, wait tables, wipe old people's behinds after they go to the bathroom, etc. Generally, only the utmost desperation will induce a woman to do this, generally drug addiction or siblings facing hunger or needing medical care they couldn't otherwise afford.

    So yes, the assumption that duress was involved is actually very much warranted.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @Dmitry, @Anonymous

    This is exaggerated, and of course it depends on the buyer and the amount in question. A woman might recoil at selling her body for $50, but for $5,000 she might feel differently. I doubt the hookers Charlie Sheen employed recoiled at the thought of having sex with him either, but the same hookers no doubt recoil at the thought of having sex with a homely, overweight, middle-aged nobody.

    Relatively few women become outright prostitutes, but a lot of women could be considered semi-pro hookers these days with things like Seeking Arrangement, Twitch streaming, Dubai girls, etc. There also appears to be no shortage of women stripping or working in pornography.

    More women would also be inclined to turn to outright prostitution if it were legal, safe, and guaranteed to be anonymous.

    The website Tag the Sponsor documents Dubai girls: http://tagthesponsor.com/home-page/

    • Replies: @Rosie
    @Thorfinnsson


    Relatively few women become outright prostitutes, but a lot of women could be considered semi-pro hookers these days with things like Seeking Arrangement, Twitch streaming, Dubai girls, etc.
     
    Even those women represent a very small minority, but whatever you need to tell yourself.
  169. @Thulean Friend
    @Rosie


    And yes, dancing is inherently sexual
     
    Strongly disagree. Ballet at its apogee is one of the purest artforms I have ever had to pleasure to enjoy and it is far more sublime (at most sensual) rather than sexual if done right. Dancing can take many forms. When I visited Turkey, one of the most memorable scenes I saw was a spontaneous outburst of dancing on one of the passanger boats travelling to an island chain outside Istanbul. It started among mostly men but later women joined in. The vibe was respectable. No gyrations, no twerking. They weren't even professionals (to my admittedly amateur eyes) but they made up for that by the sheer joy of movement. I remember thinking I would never see this kind of stuff in Sweden. Too many autists and emotionally stunted people.

    Dancing can be incredibly enriching and fun, and it doesn't need to be vulgar. Like any artform: it becomes what we choose to fill it with. If you aim for trash, you get trash.

    Replies: @Kent Nationalist, @Rosie, @Dmitry

    Turkey, one of the most memorable

    What you describe, more of a memory of Arab/Middle Eastern tribal dancing (although in Islamic countries they will separate according to gender).

    A Middle Eastern culture shock of Israel, people are often randomly dancing in the street.

    If you remember when Trump has visited Saudi Arabia they make him dance in the original way of tribal people of this region.

    . Ballet at its apogee is one of the purest artforms I have ever had to pleasure to enjoy and it is far more sublime

    Ballet is trying to make human movement as unlike as possible to movement of the apes or the animals. So I agree it is apogee of a kind of sublimation.

    However, in terms of sexuality – in the 19th century, ballet was close to prostitution.

    Ballerinas that 19th century art (like Degas) has painted, are primarily attaining money as prostitutes or mistresses.

  170. @Rosie
    @Rosie

    TF, it occurs to me that men might underestimate the revulsion women feel at the prospect of selling our bodies. If I am not mistaken, only like 5% of women have ever done it. We would rather: scrub toilets, wait tables, wipe old people's behinds after they go to the bathroom, etc. Generally, only the utmost desperation will induce a woman to do this, generally drug addiction or siblings facing hunger or needing medical care they couldn't otherwise afford.

    So yes, the assumption that duress was involved is actually very much warranted.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @Dmitry, @Anonymous

    According to a history book I have read about Spain – in 1950s Spain, there were more than 500,000 prostitutes in a country of only 28 million people.

    • Replies: @Rosie
    @Dmitry


    According to a history book I have read about Spain – in 1950s Spain, there were more than 500,000 prostitutes in a country of only 28 million people.
     
    I would surmise that economic distress of some sort was behind it if that is true.

    Replies: @Dmitry

  171. “Locked and loaded”. Will MBS order US to go to war with Iran?

  172. Has Yang ever mentioned automated weapons?

  173. Anon[202] • Disclaimer says:
    @AP
    @The Big Red Scary

    Did you try rhythmic gymnastics? We did that for one of the kids. The instructor was from Russia, as were most of the kids' parents.

    Replies: @Anon

    I wonder if “ethnic” stuff in general might be a good fit here whether Russian, Chinese, Indian (bharatanatyam etc.) etc. . I don’t know if TBRS is in Russia, US, or somewhere else.

    Rhythmic gymnastics, though I knew nothing about it until ten minutes ago, certainly seems at first glance somewhat healthier and less hackle-raising than “regular” ladies’ gymnastics here in the US, and because it’s a less popular form of gymnastics in this country it’s probably also less competitively oriented.

  174. @Epigon
    @reiner Tor

    It could be summed up - start acting like a tribe, looking out after tribal interests. Perceive your ethnicity as one giant extended family - meaning that even though your personal interests are at the top, trying to help or at least not harm others is mandatory.

    Parents working long hours, going after meme careers, egoism and hedonism combined with just core family living in a flat has had a very negative impact on children. I witness it everyday - they are neglected and raised by their surroundings and media/Internet.
    Which is naturally a disaster because the lowest common denominator in this age are stupid realities, celebrities, whoredom, shallow materialism and moral relativism.

    What you wrote is correct, but it is unrealistic - average people mostly lack the discipline, will and intelligence to do this on their own. What is needed is social pressure aimed at correcting and/or avoiding undesired behaviour - which is a difficult battle if the media is full of Hollywood and Globohomo propaganda.

    Slut shaming, ridicule and abuse of alcoholics, druggies, weirdos, obese slobs - might become a necessity.

    Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous, @Anatoly Karlin, @German_reader

    Slut shaming, ridicule and abuse of alcoholics, druggies, weirdos, obese slobs…

    Sluttery has become evolutionarily adaptive in the past century, as it was before the rise of agriculture. Not going to get far with it.

    Alcoholism and drug addiction are minor problems.

    We are all weirdos here, so where to even start.

    Fat shaming is the only thing on this list where (1) you’re not tilting against non-existing problems, (2) against your own interests, and (3) not coming off as a troglodyte.

    Problem is, they have a very strong lobby. Remember that Anglin was only kicked off the Internet when he made fun of that Heather woman.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Alcoholism has been a leading source of death for men in the FSU for decades, though things are now getting better. During the wild 90s it was apparently responsible for half of all deaths of Russians between 15 - 54.

    Drug addiction kills twice as many Americans annually as traffic fatalities.

    These are not minor problems. People are falling apart.

    Sluttery is evolutionarily adaptive today in that sluts get pregnant and resources to rear their bastards are provided by the state or the child support system. But it remains socially maladaptive. Sluts are shamed by other women, avoided by men with options, and single moms experience much more difficulty in finding decent partners. Step-fathers are also exponentially more likely to abuse children then actual fathers, and even adjusting for confounding factors children reared by single mothers experience all manner of worse life outcomes.

    Slut shaming of course probably shouldn't be a top political priority in the near term to say the least. It's especially not productive to get into feuds with women about what constitutes acceptable female behavior.

    I would however suggest that within our own circles we police each other and promote virtuous behavior. This will make us both more effective and more attractive to others.

    Replies: @Anatoly Karlin, @Rosie

    , @Thulean Friend
    @Anatoly Karlin

    This post basically just confirms that AK is nothing more than a racist libertarian. How is being against alcoholism "against your interests"? Laughably silly.

    Replies: @Anatoly Karlin

  175. @Anatoly Karlin
    @Epigon


    Slut shaming, ridicule and abuse of alcoholics, druggies, weirdos, obese slobs...
     
    Sluttery has become evolutionarily adaptive in the past century, as it was before the rise of agriculture. Not going to get far with it.

    Alcoholism and drug addiction are minor problems.

    We are all weirdos here, so where to even start.

    Fat shaming is the only thing on this list where (1) you're not tilting against non-existing problems, (2) against your own interests, and (3) not coming off as a troglodyte.

    Problem is, they have a very strong lobby. Remember that Anglin was only kicked off the Internet when he made fun of that Heather woman.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @Thulean Friend

    Alcoholism has been a leading source of death for men in the FSU for decades, though things are now getting better. During the wild 90s it was apparently responsible for half of all deaths of Russians between 15 – 54.

    Drug addiction kills twice as many Americans annually as traffic fatalities.

    These are not minor problems. People are falling apart.

    Sluttery is evolutionarily adaptive today in that sluts get pregnant and resources to rear their bastards are provided by the state or the child support system. But it remains socially maladaptive. Sluts are shamed by other women, avoided by men with options, and single moms experience much more difficulty in finding decent partners. Step-fathers are also exponentially more likely to abuse children then actual fathers, and even adjusting for confounding factors children reared by single mothers experience all manner of worse life outcomes.

    Slut shaming of course probably shouldn’t be a top political priority in the near term to say the least. It’s especially not productive to get into feuds with women about what constitutes acceptable female behavior.

    I would however suggest that within our own circles we police each other and promote virtuous behavior. This will make us both more effective and more attractive to others.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    @Thorfinnsson

    A third of middle-aged male deaths, but close enough. Much less of an issue now, not an issue in the West.

    The drugs that are an issue in the US are generally legal opioids. Not clear how to "shame" them. It's the state that needs to crack down on it, but Kushner has other priorities.

    Sluttery as in sleeping around with lots of people is probably a social bad, but people on this thread are reducing it to wearing risque/revealing clothing. In any case, "trads" have completely failed on the demographics question. In any case I am with BAP on the WQ, it is the only practical course today.

    https://twitter.com/bronzeagemantis/status/1136842733010599936

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @EldnahYm

    , @Rosie
    @Thorfinnsson


    Slut shaming of course probably shouldn’t be a top political priority in the near term to say the least. It’s especially not productive to get into feuds with women about what constitutes acceptable female behavior.
     
    I don't like shaming. It's a crude and primitive method of social control. If "sluttery" is indeed socially harmful, then it should be a crime, with all the protections for the accused that entails: proof beyond a reasonable doubt, the right to confront and cross-examine witnesses against you, a jury of your peers, etc.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Thorfinnsson

  176. @reiner Tor
    @inertial

    Only milk is somewhat unnatural (we are probably not fully adapted to consuming it), meat and eggs are things many animals regularly consume.

    The synthetic meat is highly processed food.

    Replies: @inertial

    I doubt it’s any more processed than regular beef patties.

    And what’s with obsession with processed food? Almost everything humans have been eating for the last few millennia is “highly processed” (as well as “genetically modified.”) This is especially true for meat.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    @inertial

    I doubt it’s any more processed than regular beef patties.
     

    Regular beef patties are just that--beef. The steer is slaughtered, skinned, and butchered. The patties are then ground and packaged. That's it.

    Meanwhile here's the ingredients list of a Beyond Meat patty:

    https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/1600/1*_OANhrKC30LFEMiiO4GoqQ.jpeg

    Simply producing canola oil alone, even the expelled pressed variety, requires refining, filtering, bleaching, deodorizing, and steam distillation.

    And what’s with obsession with processed food? Almost everything humans have been eating for the last few millennia is “highly processed” (as well as “genetically modified.”) This is especially true for meat.
     

    Humans, almost uniquely, have evolved to partially pre-digest food through processing techniques. Most traditionally chopping and cooking.

    Thus the use of the term "processed" to mean bad or unhealthy is misleading. Lately I've been seeing a shift to the term "ultra-processed", which is a bit better, but still misleading.

    A better term would be evolutionarily novel. Many evolutionarily novel foods appear to be contributing to the global epidemic of insulin resistance, obesity, degenerative disease, etc. So-called "vegetable oil", of which canola oil is one, is a prime culprit.

    Replies: @songbird, @inertial

  177. @Kent Nationalist
    @reiner Tor


    Men without women would have zero motivation to get anything beyond their drinks and maybe toys like Playstations or at most sports cars, but most guys wouldn’t be much motivated to bother to work enough to get the latter.
     
    I think Tolstoy made the same observation in the Kreuzer Sonata

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

    We shouldn’t forget that in his later years (after he wrote his best pieces) Tolstoy was a perfect example of “I am not opinionated, I am just always right”.

  178. @inertial
    @reiner Tor

    I doubt it's any more processed than regular beef patties.

    And what's with obsession with processed food? Almost everything humans have been eating for the last few millennia is "highly processed" (as well as "genetically modified.") This is especially true for meat.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson

    I doubt it’s any more processed than regular beef patties.

    Regular beef patties are just that–beef. The steer is slaughtered, skinned, and butchered. The patties are then ground and packaged. That’s it.

    Meanwhile here’s the ingredients list of a Beyond Meat patty:

    Simply producing canola oil alone, even the expelled pressed variety, requires refining, filtering, bleaching, deodorizing, and steam distillation.

    And what’s with obsession with processed food? Almost everything humans have been eating for the last few millennia is “highly processed” (as well as “genetically modified.”) This is especially true for meat.

    Humans, almost uniquely, have evolved to partially pre-digest food through processing techniques. Most traditionally chopping and cooking.

    Thus the use of the term “processed” to mean bad or unhealthy is misleading. Lately I’ve been seeing a shift to the term “ultra-processed”, which is a bit better, but still misleading.

    A better term would be evolutionarily novel. Many evolutionarily novel foods appear to be contributing to the global epidemic of insulin resistance, obesity, degenerative disease, etc. So-called “vegetable oil”, of which canola oil is one, is a prime culprit.

    • Agree: reiner Tor
    • Replies: @songbird
    @Thorfinnsson


    Many evolutionarily novel foods appear to be contributing to the global epidemic of insulin resistance, obesity
     
    If I recall, Jared Diamond thinks that the reason that whites are less susceptible to type II diabetes is recent evolution. Essentially, Europeans were exposed to a greater abundance of food due to their more developed trade networks and the Columbian exchange, plus the Industrial Revolution, and the earlier changes that preceded it. People with early onset type II diabetes tended not to reproduce very well, so it changed the gene frequencies significantly. At least in theory, the rest of the world will go through the same transition, though modern medicine might alter the process somewhat.

    It is interesting that Diamond could have a viewpoint like that - relatively short term evolution - and still hold crazy ideas about Papua New Guineans being Übermenschen. Though, I believe he technically isn't a globalist.

    Replies: @Logan

    , @inertial
    @Thorfinnsson

    Food preparation in primitive societies could be quite elaborate, too.

    Evolutionary novel? Nah. It can't be that novel if we can digest it. Our body breaks down food into few very basic elements, which it then uses as building blocks to build itself or for energy. All proteins are broken down into few simple amino acids, all carbs into glucose, etc. Does it matter what structure food had before it got broken down? Highly unlikely. In any case, I haven't seen any definite proof of it, only feelz.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @reiner Tor

  179. @Thorfinnsson
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Alcoholism has been a leading source of death for men in the FSU for decades, though things are now getting better. During the wild 90s it was apparently responsible for half of all deaths of Russians between 15 - 54.

    Drug addiction kills twice as many Americans annually as traffic fatalities.

    These are not minor problems. People are falling apart.

    Sluttery is evolutionarily adaptive today in that sluts get pregnant and resources to rear their bastards are provided by the state or the child support system. But it remains socially maladaptive. Sluts are shamed by other women, avoided by men with options, and single moms experience much more difficulty in finding decent partners. Step-fathers are also exponentially more likely to abuse children then actual fathers, and even adjusting for confounding factors children reared by single mothers experience all manner of worse life outcomes.

    Slut shaming of course probably shouldn't be a top political priority in the near term to say the least. It's especially not productive to get into feuds with women about what constitutes acceptable female behavior.

    I would however suggest that within our own circles we police each other and promote virtuous behavior. This will make us both more effective and more attractive to others.

    Replies: @Anatoly Karlin, @Rosie

    A third of middle-aged male deaths, but close enough. Much less of an issue now, not an issue in the West.

    The drugs that are an issue in the US are generally legal opioids. Not clear how to “shame” them. It’s the state that needs to crack down on it, but Kushner has other priorities.

    Sluttery as in sleeping around with lots of people is probably a social bad, but people on this thread are reducing it to wearing risque/revealing clothing. In any case, “trads” have completely failed on the demographics question. In any case I am with BAP on the WQ, it is the only practical course today.

    https://twitter.com/bronzeagemantis/status/1136842733010599936

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Alcoholism isn't an issue in the West on the level of the former Soviet Union, but it's not a non-issue either. There's a hard core of heavy drinkers in most countries which make up a majority of alcohol sales:

    https://medicalxpress.com/news/2018-08-two-thirds-alcohol-sales-heavy-drinkers.html

    https://www.medicaldaily.com/top-10-us-drinkers-are-behind-more-half-nations-alcohol-sales-what-does-it-take-be-top-10-305262



    In order to make it into America’s top 10 percent of drinkers, you have to consume an average of 74 alcoholic drinks per week or about 10 drinks per day. “This works out to a little more than four and a half 750-ml bottles of Jack Daniels, 18 bottles of wine, or three 24-can cases of beer a week” The Post reported.
     
    In addition to the obvious medical problems, alcoholism has other social costs in the form of crime, lost productivity, domestic abuse, and accidents. These days problem drinkers are also likely to dabble in other drugs, often with fatal consequences.


    After drinking vodka, Klyuev crushed two of the pills with a battery and snorted the powder with a rolled-up sticky note, according to testimony. He started drifting in and out of sleep. He couldn't stand up.

    He was found dead the next day, with fentanyl, alcohol and a substance associated with cocaine in his system.
     
    Ultimately, what kind of society do we want to create? What are the problems we're seeking to solve? There are millions upon millions of people worldwide who are suffering, abusing themselves and others, crying out in pain, and killing themselves.

    There's more to solving this problem that simply shaming people of course. But shame is a powerful social motivator, which is why websites publish police mugshots and extort cash payments from people to take them down.

    Replies: @songbird

    , @EldnahYm
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Is Bronze Age Pervert gay? I get a strong impression he is.

    Replies: @songbird

  180. @Anatoly Karlin
    @Thorfinnsson

    A third of middle-aged male deaths, but close enough. Much less of an issue now, not an issue in the West.

    The drugs that are an issue in the US are generally legal opioids. Not clear how to "shame" them. It's the state that needs to crack down on it, but Kushner has other priorities.

    Sluttery as in sleeping around with lots of people is probably a social bad, but people on this thread are reducing it to wearing risque/revealing clothing. In any case, "trads" have completely failed on the demographics question. In any case I am with BAP on the WQ, it is the only practical course today.

    https://twitter.com/bronzeagemantis/status/1136842733010599936

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @EldnahYm

    Alcoholism isn’t an issue in the West on the level of the former Soviet Union, but it’s not a non-issue either. There’s a hard core of heavy drinkers in most countries which make up a majority of alcohol sales:

    https://medicalxpress.com/news/2018-08-two-thirds-alcohol-sales-heavy-drinkers.html

    https://www.medicaldaily.com/top-10-us-drinkers-are-behind-more-half-nations-alcohol-sales-what-does-it-take-be-top-10-305262

    In order to make it into America’s top 10 percent of drinkers, you have to consume an average of 74 alcoholic drinks per week or about 10 drinks per day. “This works out to a little more than four and a half 750-ml bottles of Jack Daniels, 18 bottles of wine, or three 24-can cases of beer a week” The Post reported.

    In addition to the obvious medical problems, alcoholism has other social costs in the form of crime, lost productivity, domestic abuse, and accidents. These days problem drinkers are also likely to dabble in other drugs, often with fatal consequences.

    After drinking vodka, Klyuev crushed two of the pills with a battery and snorted the powder with a rolled-up sticky note, according to testimony. He started drifting in and out of sleep. He couldn’t stand up.

    He was found dead the next day, with fentanyl, alcohol and a substance associated with cocaine in his system.

    Ultimately, what kind of society do we want to create? What are the problems we’re seeking to solve? There are millions upon millions of people worldwide who are suffering, abusing themselves and others, crying out in pain, and killing themselves.

    There’s more to solving this problem that simply shaming people of course. But shame is a powerful social motivator, which is why websites publish police mugshots and extort cash payments from people to take them down.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @Thorfinnsson

    Shaming is not very effective in a diverse society.

    Probably one of the main social problems of the West.

  181. @Thorfinnsson
    @inertial

    I doubt it’s any more processed than regular beef patties.
     

    Regular beef patties are just that--beef. The steer is slaughtered, skinned, and butchered. The patties are then ground and packaged. That's it.

    Meanwhile here's the ingredients list of a Beyond Meat patty:

    https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/1600/1*_OANhrKC30LFEMiiO4GoqQ.jpeg

    Simply producing canola oil alone, even the expelled pressed variety, requires refining, filtering, bleaching, deodorizing, and steam distillation.

    And what’s with obsession with processed food? Almost everything humans have been eating for the last few millennia is “highly processed” (as well as “genetically modified.”) This is especially true for meat.
     

    Humans, almost uniquely, have evolved to partially pre-digest food through processing techniques. Most traditionally chopping and cooking.

    Thus the use of the term "processed" to mean bad or unhealthy is misleading. Lately I've been seeing a shift to the term "ultra-processed", which is a bit better, but still misleading.

    A better term would be evolutionarily novel. Many evolutionarily novel foods appear to be contributing to the global epidemic of insulin resistance, obesity, degenerative disease, etc. So-called "vegetable oil", of which canola oil is one, is a prime culprit.

    Replies: @songbird, @inertial

    Many evolutionarily novel foods appear to be contributing to the global epidemic of insulin resistance, obesity

    If I recall, Jared Diamond thinks that the reason that whites are less susceptible to type II diabetes is recent evolution. Essentially, Europeans were exposed to a greater abundance of food due to their more developed trade networks and the Columbian exchange, plus the Industrial Revolution, and the earlier changes that preceded it. People with early onset type II diabetes tended not to reproduce very well, so it changed the gene frequencies significantly. At least in theory, the rest of the world will go through the same transition, though modern medicine might alter the process somewhat.

    It is interesting that Diamond could have a viewpoint like that – relatively short term evolution – and still hold crazy ideas about Papua New Guineans being Übermenschen. Though, I believe he technically isn’t a globalist.

    • Replies: @Logan
    @songbird

    . Essentially, Europeans were exposed to a greater abundance of food due to their more developed trade networks and the Columbian exchange, plus the Industrial Revolution, and the earlier changes that preceded it.

    There were still frequent episodes of starvation up till the latter part of the 19th century in Europe.

    That's really rapid evolution!

    Replies: @songbird

  182. @Thorfinnsson
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Alcoholism isn't an issue in the West on the level of the former Soviet Union, but it's not a non-issue either. There's a hard core of heavy drinkers in most countries which make up a majority of alcohol sales:

    https://medicalxpress.com/news/2018-08-two-thirds-alcohol-sales-heavy-drinkers.html

    https://www.medicaldaily.com/top-10-us-drinkers-are-behind-more-half-nations-alcohol-sales-what-does-it-take-be-top-10-305262



    In order to make it into America’s top 10 percent of drinkers, you have to consume an average of 74 alcoholic drinks per week or about 10 drinks per day. “This works out to a little more than four and a half 750-ml bottles of Jack Daniels, 18 bottles of wine, or three 24-can cases of beer a week” The Post reported.
     
    In addition to the obvious medical problems, alcoholism has other social costs in the form of crime, lost productivity, domestic abuse, and accidents. These days problem drinkers are also likely to dabble in other drugs, often with fatal consequences.


    After drinking vodka, Klyuev crushed two of the pills with a battery and snorted the powder with a rolled-up sticky note, according to testimony. He started drifting in and out of sleep. He couldn't stand up.

    He was found dead the next day, with fentanyl, alcohol and a substance associated with cocaine in his system.
     
    Ultimately, what kind of society do we want to create? What are the problems we're seeking to solve? There are millions upon millions of people worldwide who are suffering, abusing themselves and others, crying out in pain, and killing themselves.

    There's more to solving this problem that simply shaming people of course. But shame is a powerful social motivator, which is why websites publish police mugshots and extort cash payments from people to take them down.

    Replies: @songbird

    Shaming is not very effective in a diverse society.

    Probably one of the main social problems of the West.

  183. I don’t understand why female behavior is discussed separately from male behavior. Every coin has two sides. When men behave like studs happy to screw as many as possible, sluts perfectly complement this behavior. Supply and demand always come into balance.

  184. German_reader says:
    @Epigon
    @reiner Tor

    It could be summed up - start acting like a tribe, looking out after tribal interests. Perceive your ethnicity as one giant extended family - meaning that even though your personal interests are at the top, trying to help or at least not harm others is mandatory.

    Parents working long hours, going after meme careers, egoism and hedonism combined with just core family living in a flat has had a very negative impact on children. I witness it everyday - they are neglected and raised by their surroundings and media/Internet.
    Which is naturally a disaster because the lowest common denominator in this age are stupid realities, celebrities, whoredom, shallow materialism and moral relativism.

    What you wrote is correct, but it is unrealistic - average people mostly lack the discipline, will and intelligence to do this on their own. What is needed is social pressure aimed at correcting and/or avoiding undesired behaviour - which is a difficult battle if the media is full of Hollywood and Globohomo propaganda.

    Slut shaming, ridicule and abuse of alcoholics, druggies, weirdos, obese slobs - might become a necessity.

    Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous, @Anatoly Karlin, @German_reader

    Perceive your ethnicity as one giant extended family

    Maybe that’s possible for someone from the Balkans like yourself, but it’s bizarre to frame it like that in Western Europe. When a large part of your “ethnicity” wants to see people like you socially destroyed for their views and openly states they prefer the most exotic foreigners, why treat such people as relatives?

    • Disagree: RadicalCenter
    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @German_reader

    Perhaps you can treat them like you’d treat a brother who wants to give your inheritance to some strangers and sides with them against the family.

  185. @Thorfinnsson
    @Rosie

    This is exaggerated, and of course it depends on the buyer and the amount in question. A woman might recoil at selling her body for $50, but for $5,000 she might feel differently. I doubt the hookers Charlie Sheen employed recoiled at the thought of having sex with him either, but the same hookers no doubt recoil at the thought of having sex with a homely, overweight, middle-aged nobody.

    Relatively few women become outright prostitutes, but a lot of women could be considered semi-pro hookers these days with things like Seeking Arrangement, Twitch streaming, Dubai girls, etc. There also appears to be no shortage of women stripping or working in pornography.

    More women would also be inclined to turn to outright prostitution if it were legal, safe, and guaranteed to be anonymous.

    The website Tag the Sponsor documents Dubai girls: http://tagthesponsor.com/home-page/

    Replies: @Rosie

    Relatively few women become outright prostitutes, but a lot of women could be considered semi-pro hookers these days with things like Seeking Arrangement, Twitch streaming, Dubai girls, etc.

    Even those women represent a very small minority, but whatever you need to tell yourself.

  186. @Dmitry
    @Rosie

    According to a history book I have read about Spain - in 1950s Spain, there were more than 500,000 prostitutes in a country of only 28 million people.

    Replies: @Rosie

    According to a history book I have read about Spain – in 1950s Spain, there were more than 500,000 prostitutes in a country of only 28 million people.

    I would surmise that economic distress of some sort was behind it if that is true.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Rosie

    Combination of economic and political disasters.

    I have read much higher proportion of women in Spain had worked as a prostitute at some time moment in their life by the 1950s decade, when I read a history book of Spain which was written in Spanish.

    However, here is from one history book written in English.


    For all of its restrictions on social life and lifestyles, the Franco regime tolerated prostitution for many years. Ironically, the argument used to justify the maintenance of brothels was a moral one: to preserve the purity of honorable Spanish girls, their fiancées had to have a sexual outlet to avoid pressuring their prospective brides into compromising situations.

    Prostitution rose to epidemic proportions in the immediate postwar period, as widows, single mothers, and working-class women had few other options to avoid starvation for themselves and their families. By some estimates, as many as half a million families lacked a father or husband in the home, due to imprisonment, exile, or deaths during the civil war and the repression that followed. Indeed, the state estimated that more than 75 percent of women involved in prostitution engaged in the practice because of economic desperation, while another 15 percent had been abandoned by the fathers of their children and therefore lacked respectable alternatives. Only 10 percent were prostitutes because they preferred a life of “vice and degeneration” over more accepted alternatives.

    There were more than one thousand officially tolerated brothels in the 1940s, with thousands more sex workers operating outside of government supervision. One newspaper calculated that there were as many as twenty thousand prostitutes in Barcelona alone. As a result of this tolerance, sexually transmitted diseases increased to epidemic proportions, constituting more than one-third of illnesses recorded by soldiers in 1940. The church’s resistance to contraception, including condoms, likely contributed to the dramatic rise in these afflictions.

    Many of the prostitutes came to the profession because of their political background, or that of their husbands. Repression after 1939 was severe on men and women who had identified with the Republic, whether as members of leftist political parties, or even as spouses of activists in the Communist, anarchist, or Socialist parties. The regime banned many of these women from gainful employment, and as many were separated from their husbands through exile or imprisonment, they had few options other than black market activities or prostitution. The Nationalists already regarded feminist and pro-Republican women as “degenerate” and “ugly” for their public demonstrations for radical social change during the civil war and perhaps felt little pity after the conflict for those forced into this kind of tragic life... From the beginning of the postwar period, the Catholic Church supported a prohibition on prostitution, but only in the mid-1950s did the government ban the practice. The final decision came only after a visit by the U.S. cardinal, Francis Spellman, who convinced Franco in 1956 that such a ban would improve Spain’s international reputation.
     

    http://93.174.95.29/_ads/D250CDCB8DA995A81E9BC2BDEE602450

    Replies: @Rosie

  187. @German_reader
    @Epigon


    Perceive your ethnicity as one giant extended family
     
    Maybe that's possible for someone from the Balkans like yourself, but it's bizarre to frame it like that in Western Europe. When a large part of your "ethnicity" wants to see people like you socially destroyed for their views and openly states they prefer the most exotic foreigners, why treat such people as relatives?

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    Perhaps you can treat them like you’d treat a brother who wants to give your inheritance to some strangers and sides with them against the family.

  188. @reiner Tor
    @Epigon

    Here’s my proposal:

    - do the personal self-improvement part. Many examples. Sports: if you are morbidly obese, go for walk every day. You can try pushups leaning on the wall. (Way easier, you should be able to do that.) Just start doing something. Stay longer outdoors. (Even reading a book is better outside.) Maybe cold showers. Reduce alcohol consumption if you drink a lot. Reduce or give up smoking. Reduce breathing volume, better breathing habits. (Yoga is great.) Etc. (Just start one small thing at first. Don’t overuse your willpower. It needs training, too.)
    - social self-improvement. Stand up for yourself and for others, at least whenever it’s possible. Don’t engage in depraved behavior. Be moral. If it’s impossible, at least don’t participate in the bad things. Criticize others for depravity. Etc.
    - possible organizing. Try to get into personal contact with people who have a similar worldview. Don’t engage in stupid infighting about minute details or slight differences in tactics. Etc.
    - be ready to punish the Enemy for its mistakes. But be prepared to wait patiently.

    There might be a few more points, it’s merely a rough idea.

    Replies: @Epigon, @peterAUS

    ….possible organizing. Try to get into personal contact with people who have a similar worldview.

    Do this VERY carefully. Be aware that, should you go that road, the game gets on the NEXT level.

    …There might be a few more points..

    Learning how to defend yourself/people you care for. From situational awareness to court proceedings.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @peterAUS


    Be aware that, should you go that road, the game gets on the NEXT level.
     
    Oh, it's peterAUS again with his insinuations about getting weapons and preparing for the coming race war.
    Are you from some federal agency in the US?

    Replies: @peterAUS

  189. @Anatoly Karlin
    @Thorfinnsson

    A third of middle-aged male deaths, but close enough. Much less of an issue now, not an issue in the West.

    The drugs that are an issue in the US are generally legal opioids. Not clear how to "shame" them. It's the state that needs to crack down on it, but Kushner has other priorities.

    Sluttery as in sleeping around with lots of people is probably a social bad, but people on this thread are reducing it to wearing risque/revealing clothing. In any case, "trads" have completely failed on the demographics question. In any case I am with BAP on the WQ, it is the only practical course today.

    https://twitter.com/bronzeagemantis/status/1136842733010599936

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @EldnahYm

    Is Bronze Age Pervert gay? I get a strong impression he is.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @EldnahYm

    Supposedly, his penchant for muscle pics represents a plutonic admiration for strength.

    Arnold Schwarzenegger's parents thought he was gay for a time, when he first took an interest in body-building.

    Replies: @EldnahYm, @Kent Nationalist

  190. @peterAUS
    @reiner Tor


    ....possible organizing. Try to get into personal contact with people who have a similar worldview.
     
    Do this VERY carefully. Be aware that, should you go that road, the game gets on the NEXT level.

    ...There might be a few more points..
     
    Learning how to defend yourself/people you care for. From situational awareness to court proceedings.

    Replies: @German_reader

    Be aware that, should you go that road, the game gets on the NEXT level.

    Oh, it’s peterAUS again with his insinuations about getting weapons and preparing for the coming race war.
    Are you from some federal agency in the US?

    • Replies: @peterAUS
    @German_reader


    Oh, it’s peterAUS again with his insinuations about getting weapons and preparing for the coming race war.
     
    Not exactly, but your types simply can't get what I try to say. Don't worry about it.

    Are you from some federal agency in the US?
     
    Whoever feels that "educating" and "voting" won't make much difference must be.
    It's O.K. to be soft and scared. For your types, that is.

    I suggest putting me on the ignore list.
    You just got on mine. Saves time.

    Replies: @German_reader

  191. @EldnahYm
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Is Bronze Age Pervert gay? I get a strong impression he is.

    Replies: @songbird

    Supposedly, his penchant for muscle pics represents a plutonic admiration for strength.

    Arnold Schwarzenegger’s parents thought he was gay for a time, when he first took an interest in body-building.

    • Replies: @EldnahYm
    @songbird

    I have known people into body building who were not gay. Their obsession with diet and muscles had a lot in common with nerds or guys who are into cars. Bronze Age Pervert does not strike me as that sort of guy at all.

    Replies: @RSDB

    , @Kent Nationalist
    @songbird


    Supposedly, his penchant for muscle pics represents a plutonic admiration for strength.

     

    Then why are the pictures always of handsome men with low body fat flexing instead of actual feats of strength?

    Replies: @songbird

  192. @reiner Tor
    @TheTotallyAnonymous

    Men without women would have zero motivation to get anything beyond their drinks and maybe toys like Playstations or at most sports cars, but most guys wouldn't be much motivated to bother to work enough to get the latter. In general, unmarried (heterosexual) men are often unkempt and live in dirty apartments with very unhealthy habits, like staying up late at night and similar.

    Replies: @Epigon, @TheTotallyAnonymous, @Kent Nationalist, @peterAUS

    Men without women would have zero motivation to get anything beyond their drinks and maybe toys like Playstations or at most sports cars, but most guys wouldn’t be much motivated to bother to work enough to get the latter. In general, unmarried (heterosexual) men are often unkempt and live in dirty apartments with very unhealthy habits, like staying up late at night and similar.

    Dumb.

    One of the best men I’ve met, true Alphas, real S.A.S. types, were unmarried men.
    Iron self-discipline, smart, decent jobs/careers, realistic look at the world. Self-reliant. Into adventure and combat sports, hunting, hiking etc.
    Hehe…you should walk a bit out of a big cosmopolitan area and see what kind of men live there.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @peterAUS

    Were they gay? It’d be odd, since gay men are usually not interested in such activities. Only heterosexual men. It almost appears as if heterosexual guys might not be totally indifferent to the fact that chicks often dig independent special forces guys.

    Did any of them have any problems finding ladies, whenever they felt like it? I’m not saying that was their proximate motivation, but the fact that gays are rarely into being special forces might suggest some connection between heterosexual proclivities (i.e. The Ladies) and motivation.

    Replies: @peterAUS

  193. @songbird
    @EldnahYm

    Supposedly, his penchant for muscle pics represents a plutonic admiration for strength.

    Arnold Schwarzenegger's parents thought he was gay for a time, when he first took an interest in body-building.

    Replies: @EldnahYm, @Kent Nationalist

    I have known people into body building who were not gay. Their obsession with diet and muscles had a lot in common with nerds or guys who are into cars. Bronze Age Pervert does not strike me as that sort of guy at all.

    • Replies: @RSDB
    @EldnahYm

    The phrase "Bronze Age pervert" is essentially UR-slang for "gay Jew", though it's probably not intended that way.

  194. @German_reader
    @peterAUS


    Be aware that, should you go that road, the game gets on the NEXT level.
     
    Oh, it's peterAUS again with his insinuations about getting weapons and preparing for the coming race war.
    Are you from some federal agency in the US?

    Replies: @peterAUS

    Oh, it’s peterAUS again with his insinuations about getting weapons and preparing for the coming race war.

    Not exactly, but your types simply can’t get what I try to say. Don’t worry about it.

    Are you from some federal agency in the US?

    Whoever feels that “educating” and “voting” won’t make much difference must be.
    It’s O.K. to be soft and scared. For your types, that is.

    I suggest putting me on the ignore list.
    You just got on mine. Saves time.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @peterAUS


    It’s O.K. to be soft and scared. For your types, that is.
     
    That's not the point. The point is that anybody who seriously entertains such thoughts and writes about them on the internet (on a public site at that), is a fucking moron. Or has some other agenda.
  195. @peterAUS
    @German_reader


    Oh, it’s peterAUS again with his insinuations about getting weapons and preparing for the coming race war.
     
    Not exactly, but your types simply can't get what I try to say. Don't worry about it.

    Are you from some federal agency in the US?
     
    Whoever feels that "educating" and "voting" won't make much difference must be.
    It's O.K. to be soft and scared. For your types, that is.

    I suggest putting me on the ignore list.
    You just got on mine. Saves time.

    Replies: @German_reader

    It’s O.K. to be soft and scared. For your types, that is.

    That’s not the point. The point is that anybody who seriously entertains such thoughts and writes about them on the internet (on a public site at that), is a fucking moron. Or has some other agenda.

    • Agree: reiner Tor
  196. @Thorfinnsson
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Alcoholism has been a leading source of death for men in the FSU for decades, though things are now getting better. During the wild 90s it was apparently responsible for half of all deaths of Russians between 15 - 54.

    Drug addiction kills twice as many Americans annually as traffic fatalities.

    These are not minor problems. People are falling apart.

    Sluttery is evolutionarily adaptive today in that sluts get pregnant and resources to rear their bastards are provided by the state or the child support system. But it remains socially maladaptive. Sluts are shamed by other women, avoided by men with options, and single moms experience much more difficulty in finding decent partners. Step-fathers are also exponentially more likely to abuse children then actual fathers, and even adjusting for confounding factors children reared by single mothers experience all manner of worse life outcomes.

    Slut shaming of course probably shouldn't be a top political priority in the near term to say the least. It's especially not productive to get into feuds with women about what constitutes acceptable female behavior.

    I would however suggest that within our own circles we police each other and promote virtuous behavior. This will make us both more effective and more attractive to others.

    Replies: @Anatoly Karlin, @Rosie

    Slut shaming of course probably shouldn’t be a top political priority in the near term to say the least. It’s especially not productive to get into feuds with women about what constitutes acceptable female behavior.

    I don’t like shaming. It’s a crude and primitive method of social control. If “sluttery” is indeed socially harmful, then it should be a crime, with all the protections for the accused that entails: proof beyond a reasonable doubt, the right to confront and cross-examine witnesses against you, a jury of your peers, etc.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @Rosie

    Shaming is actually appropriate for things which would be difficult to regulate legally. I don’t think the sex lives of people should be regulated to the minute details by law, it’d even be difficult, and prohibitively expensive to enforce with finding evidence beyond reasonable doubt.

    It’s much easier to simply shame slutty behavior (and its male counterparts).

    Replies: @Rosie

    , @Thorfinnsson
    @Rosie

    This is simple enough--make fornication and adultery criminal offenses.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

  197. @songbird
    @EldnahYm

    Supposedly, his penchant for muscle pics represents a plutonic admiration for strength.

    Arnold Schwarzenegger's parents thought he was gay for a time, when he first took an interest in body-building.

    Replies: @EldnahYm, @Kent Nationalist

    Supposedly, his penchant for muscle pics represents a plutonic admiration for strength.

    Then why are the pictures always of handsome men with low body fat flexing instead of actual feats of strength?

    • Replies: @songbird
    @Kent Nationalist

    Guessing beach pics facilitate the meme of Tropical Hyperborea.

    Essentially, it is more idiosyncratic, and therefore memorable. Plus, it is kind of subversive because it suggests reversing the current world order, and the ice people conquering the sun people's lands. You can't really do that with pics of caber tossing.

    But maybe I shouldn't be commenting about him because I've honestly never read his stuff.

  198. @peterAUS
    @reiner Tor


    Men without women would have zero motivation to get anything beyond their drinks and maybe toys like Playstations or at most sports cars, but most guys wouldn’t be much motivated to bother to work enough to get the latter. In general, unmarried (heterosexual) men are often unkempt and live in dirty apartments with very unhealthy habits, like staying up late at night and similar.
     
    Dumb.

    One of the best men I've met, true Alphas, real S.A.S. types, were unmarried men.
    Iron self-discipline, smart, decent jobs/careers, realistic look at the world. Self-reliant. Into adventure and combat sports, hunting, hiking etc.
    Hehe...you should walk a bit out of a big cosmopolitan area and see what kind of men live there.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    Were they gay? It’d be odd, since gay men are usually not interested in such activities. Only heterosexual men. It almost appears as if heterosexual guys might not be totally indifferent to the fact that chicks often dig independent special forces guys.

    Did any of them have any problems finding ladies, whenever they felt like it? I’m not saying that was their proximate motivation, but the fact that gays are rarely into being special forces might suggest some connection between heterosexual proclivities (i.e. The Ladies) and motivation.

    • Replies: @peterAUS
    @reiner Tor


    Were they gay?
     
    No.

    Did any of them have any problems finding ladies, whenever they felt like it?
     
    You know any man, save Brad Pitt types, who can "find ladies" whenever they feel it?!
    Whenever? Really?

    Besides, my reply was related to "unmarried men". I guess there is a distinction between a man who is not married and those you, apparently, think about.

    A race-conscious White male getting married, in this paradigm....that feels prudent to you?
    Hehe....that movie "Nice guys", "marriage is about buying a house to somebody you hate".

    My feeling, for the young White married males, today, is...they are, mostly "well-adjusted betas".
    Those unmarried are, how to put it, a good material to work with. Even speak with.

    Replies: @peterAUS, @reiner Tor

  199. @Rosie
    @Thorfinnsson


    Slut shaming of course probably shouldn’t be a top political priority in the near term to say the least. It’s especially not productive to get into feuds with women about what constitutes acceptable female behavior.
     
    I don't like shaming. It's a crude and primitive method of social control. If "sluttery" is indeed socially harmful, then it should be a crime, with all the protections for the accused that entails: proof beyond a reasonable doubt, the right to confront and cross-examine witnesses against you, a jury of your peers, etc.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Thorfinnsson

    Shaming is actually appropriate for things which would be difficult to regulate legally. I don’t think the sex lives of people should be regulated to the minute details by law, it’d even be difficult, and prohibitively expensive to enforce with finding evidence beyond reasonable doubt.

    It’s much easier to simply shame slutty behavior (and its male counterparts).

    • Agree: Yevardian
    • Replies: @Rosie
    @reiner Tor


    It’s much easier to simply shame slutty behavior (and its male counterparts).
     
    Come now, you and I both know it won't work out that way.

    I don’t think the sex lives of people should be regulated to the minute details by law, it’d even be difficult, and prohibitively expensive to enforce with finding evidence beyond reasonable doubt.
     

    So what? The effect would be to demoralize promiscuity, reducing it to the status of homosexuality before Bowers v. Hardwicke. At a minimum, everyone would have to keep their mouths shut.
  200. @Rosie
    @Thorfinnsson


    Slut shaming of course probably shouldn’t be a top political priority in the near term to say the least. It’s especially not productive to get into feuds with women about what constitutes acceptable female behavior.
     
    I don't like shaming. It's a crude and primitive method of social control. If "sluttery" is indeed socially harmful, then it should be a crime, with all the protections for the accused that entails: proof beyond a reasonable doubt, the right to confront and cross-examine witnesses against you, a jury of your peers, etc.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Thorfinnsson

    This is simple enough–make fornication and adultery criminal offenses.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @Thorfinnsson

    It might be okay longer term. But certainly not as a short term program. Before you can introduce it you need society to already hold those values, i.e. shaming.

  201. @EldnahYm
    @songbird

    I have known people into body building who were not gay. Their obsession with diet and muscles had a lot in common with nerds or guys who are into cars. Bronze Age Pervert does not strike me as that sort of guy at all.

    Replies: @RSDB

    The phrase “Bronze Age pervert” is essentially UR-slang for “gay Jew”, though it’s probably not intended that way.

  202. @Thorfinnsson
    @Rosie

    This is simple enough--make fornication and adultery criminal offenses.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    It might be okay longer term. But certainly not as a short term program. Before you can introduce it you need society to already hold those values, i.e. shaming.

    • Agree: songbird
  203. @Kent Nationalist
    @songbird


    Supposedly, his penchant for muscle pics represents a plutonic admiration for strength.

     

    Then why are the pictures always of handsome men with low body fat flexing instead of actual feats of strength?

    Replies: @songbird

    Guessing beach pics facilitate the meme of Tropical Hyperborea.

    Essentially, it is more idiosyncratic, and therefore memorable. Plus, it is kind of subversive because it suggests reversing the current world order, and the ice people conquering the sun people’s lands. You can’t really do that with pics of caber tossing.

    But maybe I shouldn’t be commenting about him because I’ve honestly never read his stuff.

  204. Anonymous[277] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie
    @Anonymous


    There is no great Jewish conspiracy here: women like to dance, they like to feel sexual and they want to do it in an environment that feels “safe” (i.e., only other women around).
     
    Fact check: mostly true.

    Yes, we like to dance, ideally with other women. And yes, dancing is inherently sexual, but I don't think that proves there's no Jewish conspiracy. Gyms don't offer any dance classes that don't reflect the (((popular culture))).

    Replies: @The Big Red Scary, @Thulean Friend, @Anonymous

    Gyms don’t offer any dance classes that don’t reflect the (((popular culture)))

    I think “adult ballet” (i.e., ballet classes for non-professional novice adults) is a trendy thing; I’ve met women who do it. But different programs market to different demographics: the more high-toned forms of dancing (ballet, ballroom) will be enjoyed more by more affluent/educated women (those with successful careers, advance degrees etc), whereas the pole dancing/twerking will be more for proletarian lower-IQ types. Nothing new here; proles have always been more overtly sexual than the upper classes.

  205. @reiner Tor
    @Rosie

    Shaming is actually appropriate for things which would be difficult to regulate legally. I don’t think the sex lives of people should be regulated to the minute details by law, it’d even be difficult, and prohibitively expensive to enforce with finding evidence beyond reasonable doubt.

    It’s much easier to simply shame slutty behavior (and its male counterparts).

    Replies: @Rosie

    It’s much easier to simply shame slutty behavior (and its male counterparts).

    Come now, you and I both know it won’t work out that way.

    I don’t think the sex lives of people should be regulated to the minute details by law, it’d even be difficult, and prohibitively expensive to enforce with finding evidence beyond reasonable doubt.

    So what? The effect would be to demoralize promiscuity, reducing it to the status of homosexuality before Bowers v. Hardwicke. At a minimum, everyone would have to keep their mouths shut.

  206. @reiner Tor
    @peterAUS

    Were they gay? It’d be odd, since gay men are usually not interested in such activities. Only heterosexual men. It almost appears as if heterosexual guys might not be totally indifferent to the fact that chicks often dig independent special forces guys.

    Did any of them have any problems finding ladies, whenever they felt like it? I’m not saying that was their proximate motivation, but the fact that gays are rarely into being special forces might suggest some connection between heterosexual proclivities (i.e. The Ladies) and motivation.

    Replies: @peterAUS

    Were they gay?

    No.

    Did any of them have any problems finding ladies, whenever they felt like it?

    You know any man, save Brad Pitt types, who can “find ladies” whenever they feel it?!
    Whenever? Really?

    Besides, my reply was related to “unmarried men”. I guess there is a distinction between a man who is not married and those you, apparently, think about.

    A race-conscious White male getting married, in this paradigm….that feels prudent to you?
    Hehe….that movie “Nice guys”, “marriage is about buying a house to somebody you hate”.

    My feeling, for the young White married males, today, is…they are, mostly “well-adjusted betas”.
    Those unmarried are, how to put it, a good material to work with. Even speak with.

    • Replies: @peterAUS
    @peterAUS

    Speaking of "beta" etc. my experience:

    I've trained a couple of young guys in self-defense (or so I say....hehe....). Proper self-defense I'd say (yes, I know...). It was a good setup; they were keen, hard-working, the usual.
    They were not in a serious relationship with an opposite-sex at the time

    Hehehe....then, they got girls.

    Girls started having a problem with that...ahm..."thing". Haha...the guys quit.
    Understandable.

    What could be interesting here is my observation that the girls didn't actually mind the cuts/bruises, not even the time spent away from them. No. They didn't much appreciate the attitude.
    Make of that what you will.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    , @reiner Tor
    @peterAUS

    I was hyperbolic with "whenever" and you know it.

    So, were these guys shunned by the ladies? (Again, a hyperbole. You know what I mean. Especially relative to their wealth, or lack thereof, chicks probably dig these guys.)

    Replies: @Brutis

  207. Anonymous[277] • Disclaimer says:
    @Epigon
    @Anonymous


    A lot of this stuff (twerk classes, pole dancing/”stipper-obics”) is marketed as exercise (which I’m sure it is). There is no great Jewish conspiracy here: women like to dance, they like to feel sexual and they want to do it in an environment that feels “safe”
     
    Riiiight.
    This behaviour being in "women's nature", you think women 30, 50, 100, 200 years ago would approve of it and join in the fun?


    It's almost as if moral code, desired and acceptable behaviour are not dictated by women themselves... And that there is a concentrated push coming from certain circles and groups with the explicite goal of undermining European traditions and social norms.

    Replies: @Brutis, @Anonymous

    Societies have been more or less repressive of female sexuality at varying times. Prostitution, for example, was probably more tolerated in most European countries circa 1700 than it is in the US today. Whether men exerted more control over female behavior at other points in history…probably they did? Or maybe not. Our knowledge of social norms in past eras is sketchy and mostly confined to the upper classes. My guess is they were more repressive in some respects, less repressive in others.

    A young woman’s sexuality is (mostly) an asset for her, and young women will realize this naturally, without any outside help. It is a weapon, and like any weapon the trick is to use it in the right place at the right time. Women have been trying to show off their sexualities in various ways since before man was man. We are animals: girl and boy are turned on by each other, they screw and make babies. Nothing complicated about it. No Jewish conspiracy required.

    • Replies: @anonymous coward
    @Anonymous

    Pretty much everything you said is total bullshit.

    a) "Repression" (though it really isn't) of female sexuality is not a male thing, nor a patriarchy imperative. It's a female thing driven by females, to allow females access to stable homes and money-earning fathers for their children.

    b) The job of women isn't to "show off sexuality", their primary drive is to vet male suitors and practice eugenics for their kids. "Female sexuality" of the slutty form is a gender inversion where women started acting like men in the second half of the 20th century. It was invented and forced on women by lecherous men and perverted lesbians.

    c) Sluttiness and promiscuity never lead to high birth rates. The rule is that the more loose sex, the less babies are born. (See points a) and b) above for an explanation, it should be obvious.)

    d) The animal imperative of the human creature is monogamy, not promiscuity. Promiscuity only became possible in the 20th century via a massive overdose of poisonous chemicals and brainwashing propaganda. It's as far from natural as you can get while still on this Earth.

    Replies: @German_reader, @Anonymous

  208. Anonymous[277] • Disclaimer says:

    Where is all this slutty behavior? In the US our white birth rates are well below replacement and there is a general trend amongst younger people towards fewer sexual partners, fewer sexual experiences, just less sex overall. This isn’t the 1970s. Promiscuity has many downsides but I’d still probably prefer it to the nation of atomized internet addicts we are rapidly becoming.

    • Agree: German_reader
  209. @peterAUS
    @reiner Tor


    Were they gay?
     
    No.

    Did any of them have any problems finding ladies, whenever they felt like it?
     
    You know any man, save Brad Pitt types, who can "find ladies" whenever they feel it?!
    Whenever? Really?

    Besides, my reply was related to "unmarried men". I guess there is a distinction between a man who is not married and those you, apparently, think about.

    A race-conscious White male getting married, in this paradigm....that feels prudent to you?
    Hehe....that movie "Nice guys", "marriage is about buying a house to somebody you hate".

    My feeling, for the young White married males, today, is...they are, mostly "well-adjusted betas".
    Those unmarried are, how to put it, a good material to work with. Even speak with.

    Replies: @peterAUS, @reiner Tor

    Speaking of “beta” etc. my experience:

    I’ve trained a couple of young guys in self-defense (or so I say….hehe….). Proper self-defense I’d say (yes, I know…). It was a good setup; they were keen, hard-working, the usual.
    They were not in a serious relationship with an opposite-sex at the time

    Hehehe….then, they got girls.

    Girls started having a problem with that…ahm…”thing”. Haha…the guys quit.
    Understandable.

    What could be interesting here is my observation that the girls didn’t actually mind the cuts/bruises, not even the time spent away from them. No. They didn’t much appreciate the attitude.
    Make of that what you will.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @peterAUS

    Possible.

    Anyway. The guys had the attitude while they didn't have the girls. The girls appeared, and the guys suddenly realized having girls was more important than the self-defense classes. (Best self-defense is situational awareness and avoiding bad places, also knowing when to leave and then proceeding to do so quickly.)

    Would the girls have liked them if they didn't have the attitude in the first place? We'll never know. It might be the guy doing overtime, making lots of money, getting a wife, and then wifey demanding to stop working overtime. Would she have married him if he never did overtime in the first place?

    I still feel the connection how gay guys are rarely interested in such things.

    Replies: @Brutis, @peterAUS

  210. You don’t need a central court system to punish thots lol.

    Just a culture and state that looks the other way when an actual man tells some bitch to put some clothes on.

    • Agree: TheTotallyAnonymous
  211. @Thorfinnsson
    @inertial

    I doubt it’s any more processed than regular beef patties.
     

    Regular beef patties are just that--beef. The steer is slaughtered, skinned, and butchered. The patties are then ground and packaged. That's it.

    Meanwhile here's the ingredients list of a Beyond Meat patty:

    https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/1600/1*_OANhrKC30LFEMiiO4GoqQ.jpeg

    Simply producing canola oil alone, even the expelled pressed variety, requires refining, filtering, bleaching, deodorizing, and steam distillation.

    And what’s with obsession with processed food? Almost everything humans have been eating for the last few millennia is “highly processed” (as well as “genetically modified.”) This is especially true for meat.
     

    Humans, almost uniquely, have evolved to partially pre-digest food through processing techniques. Most traditionally chopping and cooking.

    Thus the use of the term "processed" to mean bad or unhealthy is misleading. Lately I've been seeing a shift to the term "ultra-processed", which is a bit better, but still misleading.

    A better term would be evolutionarily novel. Many evolutionarily novel foods appear to be contributing to the global epidemic of insulin resistance, obesity, degenerative disease, etc. So-called "vegetable oil", of which canola oil is one, is a prime culprit.

    Replies: @songbird, @inertial

    Food preparation in primitive societies could be quite elaborate, too.

    Evolutionary novel? Nah. It can’t be that novel if we can digest it. Our body breaks down food into few very basic elements, which it then uses as building blocks to build itself or for energy. All proteins are broken down into few simple amino acids, all carbs into glucose, etc. Does it matter what structure food had before it got broken down? Highly unlikely. In any case, I haven’t seen any definite proof of it, only feelz.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    @inertial

    Nutrient composition and frequency of feeding are both novel.

    Replies: @inertial

    , @reiner Tor
    @inertial

    You are very wrong, but it's okay.

  212. @Rosie
    @Dmitry


    According to a history book I have read about Spain – in 1950s Spain, there were more than 500,000 prostitutes in a country of only 28 million people.
     
    I would surmise that economic distress of some sort was behind it if that is true.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    Combination of economic and political disasters.

    I have read much higher proportion of women in Spain had worked as a prostitute at some time moment in their life by the 1950s decade, when I read a history book of Spain which was written in Spanish.

    However, here is from one history book written in English.

    For all of its restrictions on social life and lifestyles, the Franco regime tolerated prostitution for many years. Ironically, the argument used to justify the maintenance of brothels was a moral one: to preserve the purity of honorable Spanish girls, their fiancées had to have a sexual outlet to avoid pressuring their prospective brides into compromising situations.

    Prostitution rose to epidemic proportions in the immediate postwar period, as widows, single mothers, and working-class women had few other options to avoid starvation for themselves and their families. By some estimates, as many as half a million families lacked a father or husband in the home, due to imprisonment, exile, or deaths during the civil war and the repression that followed. Indeed, the state estimated that more than 75 percent of women involved in prostitution engaged in the practice because of economic desperation, while another 15 percent had been abandoned by the fathers of their children and therefore lacked respectable alternatives. Only 10 percent were prostitutes because they preferred a life of “vice and degeneration” over more accepted alternatives.

    There were more than one thousand officially tolerated brothels in the 1940s, with thousands more sex workers operating outside of government supervision. One newspaper calculated that there were as many as twenty thousand prostitutes in Barcelona alone. As a result of this tolerance, sexually transmitted diseases increased to epidemic proportions, constituting more than one-third of illnesses recorded by soldiers in 1940. The church’s resistance to contraception, including condoms, likely contributed to the dramatic rise in these afflictions.

    Many of the prostitutes came to the profession because of their political background, or that of their husbands. Repression after 1939 was severe on men and women who had identified with the Republic, whether as members of leftist political parties, or even as spouses of activists in the Communist, anarchist, or Socialist parties. The regime banned many of these women from gainful employment, and as many were separated from their husbands through exile or imprisonment, they had few options other than black market activities or prostitution. The Nationalists already regarded feminist and pro-Republican women as “degenerate” and “ugly” for their public demonstrations for radical social change during the civil war and perhaps felt little pity after the conflict for those forced into this kind of tragic life… From the beginning of the postwar period, the Catholic Church supported a prohibition on prostitution, but only in the mid-1950s did the government ban the practice. The final decision came only after a visit by the U.S. cardinal, Francis Spellman, who convinced Franco in 1956 that such a ban would improve Spain’s international reputation.

    http://93.174.95.29/_ads/D250CDCB8DA995A81E9BC2BDEE602450

    • Replies: @Rosie
    @Dmitry


    Ironically, the argument used to justify the maintenance of brothels was a moral one: to preserve the purity of honorable Spanish girls, their fiancées had to have a sexual outlet to avoid pressuring their prospective brides into compromising situations.
     
    Yes, indeed. There has always been a stench of hypocrisy surrounding prostitution.

    Some must be dehumanized and degraded so that others may be elevated.

  213. I guess I am kind of a libertarian on clothes, within certain reason. Should be the law that:

    1.) Any healthy observer is required to kick the butt of anyone with their pants purposefully falling down
    2.) You need a certain BMI index to be allowed to dress like a slut, and there is a hard age limit
    3.) Anyone wearing a Che shirt should be sent to a 24 hour re-education camp

    • LOL: Rosie
    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @songbird

    Obviously, should wear the clothes they like, to the extent the don't want to disappoint the local norms.

    On general topic of aesthetic norms of a society. Everything has costs and benefits.

    A very aesthetic society like Italy, looks beautiful from outside. But it is slightly oppressive to live with the social norm to iron your clothes, polish your shoes every morning, and buy a new shirt everytime you mess up with spaghetti. It adds a layer of stress and extra work, to live in an aesthetic society.

    On the other hand, an unpretentious, nonaesthetic society, where women do not care about wearing makeup, you can go to the office in your pajamas, and you can have muddy shoes and tomato stains on your clothes - seems much more preferable and refreshing from a viewpoint of personal comfort. But then you have to pay the cost that the population will appear shabby, and outsiders will laugh a bit at your appearance.

    Replies: @Brutis, @songbird

    , @Rosie
    @songbird


    I guess I am kind of a libertarian on clothes, within certain reason.
     
    There has only been one thing that has ever really bothered me: Girls with their bathing suits literally up their ass at a family pool where children are playing. Thankfully, I haven't seen this very often.

    Replies: @songbird

  214. @peterAUS
    @reiner Tor


    Were they gay?
     
    No.

    Did any of them have any problems finding ladies, whenever they felt like it?
     
    You know any man, save Brad Pitt types, who can "find ladies" whenever they feel it?!
    Whenever? Really?

    Besides, my reply was related to "unmarried men". I guess there is a distinction between a man who is not married and those you, apparently, think about.

    A race-conscious White male getting married, in this paradigm....that feels prudent to you?
    Hehe....that movie "Nice guys", "marriage is about buying a house to somebody you hate".

    My feeling, for the young White married males, today, is...they are, mostly "well-adjusted betas".
    Those unmarried are, how to put it, a good material to work with. Even speak with.

    Replies: @peterAUS, @reiner Tor

    I was hyperbolic with “whenever” and you know it.

    So, were these guys shunned by the ladies? (Again, a hyperbole. You know what I mean. Especially relative to their wealth, or lack thereof, chicks probably dig these guys.)

    • Replies: @Brutis
    @reiner Tor

    They dig them but at the same time relationships can be difficult.

    The guys probably orient towards being experts in the Warrior topics and not much else.

    We may think hunting, fishing, shooting camping are separate topics but to basic bitches they're not.

    The men are caught between trying to cultivate interests they give no fucks about or handling the fact that the general public doesn't ascribe any social status to knowledge & breadth in these subjects.

    There's no shortage of 'hot' guys so social compatibility is another filter used.

    Knowing Drake's cock size gets you further with the latest than zeroing a scope blindfolded.

    You just get to a point where you don't need to worry because you know you're a top tier man and so does she. You don't need to prove shit to the horde of teenage girls,

    You need a smart woman anyway because she'll be raising the kids after you go to speak with Tengri in Uchmak.

  215. @inertial
    @Thorfinnsson

    Food preparation in primitive societies could be quite elaborate, too.

    Evolutionary novel? Nah. It can't be that novel if we can digest it. Our body breaks down food into few very basic elements, which it then uses as building blocks to build itself or for energy. All proteins are broken down into few simple amino acids, all carbs into glucose, etc. Does it matter what structure food had before it got broken down? Highly unlikely. In any case, I haven't seen any definite proof of it, only feelz.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @reiner Tor

    Nutrient composition and frequency of feeding are both novel.

    • Replies: @inertial
    @Thorfinnsson

    That's true. For most of human history most people lacked basic nutrients and frequency of feeding was often low enough to starve to death. I rather like novelty.

    Replies: @Brutis, @Thorfinnsson

  216. @peterAUS
    @peterAUS

    Speaking of "beta" etc. my experience:

    I've trained a couple of young guys in self-defense (or so I say....hehe....). Proper self-defense I'd say (yes, I know...). It was a good setup; they were keen, hard-working, the usual.
    They were not in a serious relationship with an opposite-sex at the time

    Hehehe....then, they got girls.

    Girls started having a problem with that...ahm..."thing". Haha...the guys quit.
    Understandable.

    What could be interesting here is my observation that the girls didn't actually mind the cuts/bruises, not even the time spent away from them. No. They didn't much appreciate the attitude.
    Make of that what you will.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    Possible.

    Anyway. The guys had the attitude while they didn’t have the girls. The girls appeared, and the guys suddenly realized having girls was more important than the self-defense classes. (Best self-defense is situational awareness and avoiding bad places, also knowing when to leave and then proceeding to do so quickly.)

    Would the girls have liked them if they didn’t have the attitude in the first place? We’ll never know. It might be the guy doing overtime, making lots of money, getting a wife, and then wifey demanding to stop working overtime. Would she have married him if he never did overtime in the first place?

    I still feel the connection how gay guys are rarely interested in such things.

    • Replies: @Brutis
    @reiner Tor

    It's true.

    White women are especially bad at this but it applies to others. Basic bitches (like Rosie) in general tbh,

    There are love songs where the girl is caught between loving the Thug but also wanting him to stop engaging in the violent environment.

    Men love violence that's really all there is.
    This is also why I'd rather marry a less attractive girl who is okay with the Warrior stuff both personally and socially.

    You need a Warrior religion.

    , @peterAUS
    @reiner Tor

    Interesting questions.
    Wording too.


    ...shunned by the ladies....chicks probably dig ....Anyway....
     

    ....having girls was more important than the self-defense classes. (Best self-defense is situational awareness and avoiding bad places, also knowing when to leave and then proceeding to do so quickly
     
    How about a question for you:
    9 P.M. in a shopping center parking. You are loading stuff in your car. A car parks by. "Thump"...a driver just hit, hard, with his door, your car. An average looking guy. One guy.
    You try to complain. He says"fuck off" and starts towards you. 2 seconds to close the gap.

    Ever thought about it?
    If no let's move on.

    If yes: what....do...you....do?

    Replies: @Brutis, @peterAUS, @reiner Tor

  217. @inertial
    @Thorfinnsson

    Food preparation in primitive societies could be quite elaborate, too.

    Evolutionary novel? Nah. It can't be that novel if we can digest it. Our body breaks down food into few very basic elements, which it then uses as building blocks to build itself or for energy. All proteins are broken down into few simple amino acids, all carbs into glucose, etc. Does it matter what structure food had before it got broken down? Highly unlikely. In any case, I haven't seen any definite proof of it, only feelz.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @reiner Tor

    You are very wrong, but it’s okay.

  218. @reiner Tor
    @peterAUS

    Possible.

    Anyway. The guys had the attitude while they didn't have the girls. The girls appeared, and the guys suddenly realized having girls was more important than the self-defense classes. (Best self-defense is situational awareness and avoiding bad places, also knowing when to leave and then proceeding to do so quickly.)

    Would the girls have liked them if they didn't have the attitude in the first place? We'll never know. It might be the guy doing overtime, making lots of money, getting a wife, and then wifey demanding to stop working overtime. Would she have married him if he never did overtime in the first place?

    I still feel the connection how gay guys are rarely interested in such things.

    Replies: @Brutis, @peterAUS

    It’s true.

    White women are especially bad at this but it applies to others. Basic bitches (like Rosie) in general tbh,

    There are love songs where the girl is caught between loving the Thug but also wanting him to stop engaging in the violent environment.

    Men love violence that’s really all there is.
    This is also why I’d rather marry a less attractive girl who is okay with the Warrior stuff both personally and socially.

    You need a Warrior religion.

  219. @reiner Tor
    @peterAUS

    Possible.

    Anyway. The guys had the attitude while they didn't have the girls. The girls appeared, and the guys suddenly realized having girls was more important than the self-defense classes. (Best self-defense is situational awareness and avoiding bad places, also knowing when to leave and then proceeding to do so quickly.)

    Would the girls have liked them if they didn't have the attitude in the first place? We'll never know. It might be the guy doing overtime, making lots of money, getting a wife, and then wifey demanding to stop working overtime. Would she have married him if he never did overtime in the first place?

    I still feel the connection how gay guys are rarely interested in such things.

    Replies: @Brutis, @peterAUS

    Interesting questions.
    Wording too.

    …shunned by the ladies….chicks probably dig ….Anyway….

    ….having girls was more important than the self-defense classes. (Best self-defense is situational awareness and avoiding bad places, also knowing when to leave and then proceeding to do so quickly

    How about a question for you:
    9 P.M. in a shopping center parking. You are loading stuff in your car. A car parks by. “Thump”…a driver just hit, hard, with his door, your car. An average looking guy. One guy.
    You try to complain. He says”fuck off” and starts towards you. 2 seconds to close the gap.

    Ever thought about it?
    If no let’s move on.

    If yes: what….do…you….do?

    • Replies: @Brutis
    @peterAUS

    Pull the war bracelet off your wrist beat him to a pulp and if he complains further charge him with hate crime. 😂

    Preparing arms should be instinctual in any tense situation.

    Your situation also sucks because no average looking or anyone period is going to do that.

    Would you?

    Replies: @peterAUS

    , @peterAUS
    @peterAUS

    An acquaintance of mine, nice middle-class White guy, got hospitalized a several months ago. Surgery.
    Awaiting for more surgeries. Reconstruction type. Facial.

    A younger man than me. Stronger too. But nice. Well-adjusted, that is.

    Details (customized a bit for obvious reasons):
    He and his wife went for a nice stroll along a river. Parked in the usual, safe, place. Walked, came back and found a guy sitting on their bonnet, drinking beer. The man simply complained. The other guy...reacted....
    Worse, the acquaintance of mine didn't register that man's accomplice, who blindsided him from behind. True, other "strollers" did jump to help. Too late. 30 seconds "action", not longer.

    Perpetrators fled.
    Police came.
    Hospital time.

    Oh, BTW, still nothing on the legal front re the perpetrators.

    Don't think the man learnt the lesson, though.

    Understandable.

    , @reiner Tor
    @peterAUS

    I thought about similar situations with Gypsies. Apologize and cut your losses. You have a normal life. He doesn’t care about prison, and having a long prison term only means prestige for him. Even if you beat him you can get into trouble; or he might want to get revenge, so he’ll come back and stab you from the back. He won’t care that it’s a cowardly way of defeating someone, in his mind it’ll be victory.

    In your situation the aggressive guy probably has less to lose. Normal people aren’t that aggressive. He’s either on drugs or just a psycho who will go to jail soon; it’s best if for beating up someone else. Again, even if you beat him you’ll get into trouble. Or he might want a revenge.

    I probably wouldn’t scratch his car after he’s gone, but that’s also an option.

    That’s the theory. When you only have two seconds, you might do something dumb like engaging in physical confrontation. But you really shouldn’t.

    Replies: @peterAUS

  220. @songbird
    I guess I am kind of a libertarian on clothes, within certain reason. Should be the law that:

    1.) Any healthy observer is required to kick the butt of anyone with their pants purposefully falling down
    2.) You need a certain BMI index to be allowed to dress like a slut, and there is a hard age limit
    3.) Anyone wearing a Che shirt should be sent to a 24 hour re-education camp

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Rosie

    Obviously, should wear the clothes they like, to the extent the don’t want to disappoint the local norms.

    On general topic of aesthetic norms of a society. Everything has costs and benefits.

    A very aesthetic society like Italy, looks beautiful from outside. But it is slightly oppressive to live with the social norm to iron your clothes, polish your shoes every morning, and buy a new shirt everytime you mess up with spaghetti. It adds a layer of stress and extra work, to live in an aesthetic society.

    On the other hand, an unpretentious, nonaesthetic society, where women do not care about wearing makeup, you can go to the office in your pajamas, and you can have muddy shoes and tomato stains on your clothes – seems much more preferable and refreshing from a viewpoint of personal comfort. But then you have to pay the cost that the population will appear shabby, and outsiders will laugh a bit at your appearance.

    • Replies: @Brutis
    @Dmitry

    Men are able to survive by their own violence.

    Woman's nature is of subservience due to her very biology.

    Therefore women are always property and always regulated or heavily influenced into following trends.

    This personality trait is called agreeableness.

    Don't bring up Amazons because that is from my tribe in ancient times & Singh is hunting Afghan rapists is our modern/contemporary heritage.

    If you can't assert yourself over women you don't deserve to have them around.

    Rosie is just there to ruin the fun and gain attention.

    , @songbird
    @Dmitry

    I think it is kind of interesting to see the clothes women pick for themselves. To a certain degree, fashions that show more skin are pushed on them, but there is still some room for modesty.

    Tattoos on women are disgusting, but perhaps have important signaling value.

    One of the downsides of relaxed social norms on clothing is the globalization of clothes. For instance, the high penetration of English words on clothes, even to the ends of the Earth, or people making fun of others for not having the top American brand of jeans.

    Replies: @Dmitry

  221. @reiner Tor
    @peterAUS

    I was hyperbolic with "whenever" and you know it.

    So, were these guys shunned by the ladies? (Again, a hyperbole. You know what I mean. Especially relative to their wealth, or lack thereof, chicks probably dig these guys.)

    Replies: @Brutis

    They dig them but at the same time relationships can be difficult.

    The guys probably orient towards being experts in the Warrior topics and not much else.

    We may think hunting, fishing, shooting camping are separate topics but to basic bitches they’re not.

    The men are caught between trying to cultivate interests they give no fucks about or handling the fact that the general public doesn’t ascribe any social status to knowledge & breadth in these subjects.

    There’s no shortage of ‘hot’ guys so social compatibility is another filter used.

    Knowing Drake’s cock size gets you further with the latest than zeroing a scope blindfolded.

    You just get to a point where you don’t need to worry because you know you’re a top tier man and so does she. You don’t need to prove shit to the horde of teenage girls,

    You need a smart woman anyway because she’ll be raising the kids after you go to speak with Tengri in Uchmak.

  222. @peterAUS
    @reiner Tor

    Interesting questions.
    Wording too.


    ...shunned by the ladies....chicks probably dig ....Anyway....
     

    ....having girls was more important than the self-defense classes. (Best self-defense is situational awareness and avoiding bad places, also knowing when to leave and then proceeding to do so quickly
     
    How about a question for you:
    9 P.M. in a shopping center parking. You are loading stuff in your car. A car parks by. "Thump"...a driver just hit, hard, with his door, your car. An average looking guy. One guy.
    You try to complain. He says"fuck off" and starts towards you. 2 seconds to close the gap.

    Ever thought about it?
    If no let's move on.

    If yes: what....do...you....do?

    Replies: @Brutis, @peterAUS, @reiner Tor

    Pull the war bracelet off your wrist beat him to a pulp and if he complains further charge him with hate crime. 😂

    Preparing arms should be instinctual in any tense situation.

    Your situation also sucks because no average looking or anyone period is going to do that.

    Would you?

    • Replies: @peterAUS
    @Brutis


    Your situation also sucks because no average looking or anyone period is going to do that.
     
    Hahahaha...."anyone period"? Do what? Smash you into the ground because he is simply looking for a fight? Hahaha........
    Warrior a?
    Oh my.

    You guys really have to go out more.

    Replies: @Brutis

  223. @Thorfinnsson
    @inertial

    Nutrient composition and frequency of feeding are both novel.

    Replies: @inertial

    That’s true. For most of human history most people lacked basic nutrients and frequency of feeding was often low enough to starve to death. I rather like novelty.

    • Replies: @Brutis
    @inertial

    For most of human history you hunted wild animals and fought other men bare chested.

    , @Thorfinnsson
    @inertial

    Powerful take.

    https://www.cartoonmovement.com/depot/cartoons/2016/10/27/famine_war__ayman_toon.jpeg

    Return to Tradition

  224. @Dmitry
    @songbird

    Obviously, should wear the clothes they like, to the extent the don't want to disappoint the local norms.

    On general topic of aesthetic norms of a society. Everything has costs and benefits.

    A very aesthetic society like Italy, looks beautiful from outside. But it is slightly oppressive to live with the social norm to iron your clothes, polish your shoes every morning, and buy a new shirt everytime you mess up with spaghetti. It adds a layer of stress and extra work, to live in an aesthetic society.

    On the other hand, an unpretentious, nonaesthetic society, where women do not care about wearing makeup, you can go to the office in your pajamas, and you can have muddy shoes and tomato stains on your clothes - seems much more preferable and refreshing from a viewpoint of personal comfort. But then you have to pay the cost that the population will appear shabby, and outsiders will laugh a bit at your appearance.

    Replies: @Brutis, @songbird

    Men are able to survive by their own violence.

    Woman’s nature is of subservience due to her very biology.

    Therefore women are always property and always regulated or heavily influenced into following trends.

    This personality trait is called agreeableness.

    Don’t bring up Amazons because that is from my tribe in ancient times & Singh is hunting Afghan rapists is our modern/contemporary heritage.

    If you can’t assert yourself over women you don’t deserve to have them around.

    Rosie is just there to ruin the fun and gain attention.

  225. @inertial
    @Thorfinnsson

    That's true. For most of human history most people lacked basic nutrients and frequency of feeding was often low enough to starve to death. I rather like novelty.

    Replies: @Brutis, @Thorfinnsson

    For most of human history you hunted wild animals and fought other men bare chested.

  226. @inertial
    @Thorfinnsson

    That's true. For most of human history most people lacked basic nutrients and frequency of feeding was often low enough to starve to death. I rather like novelty.

    Replies: @Brutis, @Thorfinnsson

    Powerful take.

    Return to Tradition

  227. @peterAUS
    @reiner Tor

    Interesting questions.
    Wording too.


    ...shunned by the ladies....chicks probably dig ....Anyway....
     

    ....having girls was more important than the self-defense classes. (Best self-defense is situational awareness and avoiding bad places, also knowing when to leave and then proceeding to do so quickly
     
    How about a question for you:
    9 P.M. in a shopping center parking. You are loading stuff in your car. A car parks by. "Thump"...a driver just hit, hard, with his door, your car. An average looking guy. One guy.
    You try to complain. He says"fuck off" and starts towards you. 2 seconds to close the gap.

    Ever thought about it?
    If no let's move on.

    If yes: what....do...you....do?

    Replies: @Brutis, @peterAUS, @reiner Tor

    An acquaintance of mine, nice middle-class White guy, got hospitalized a several months ago. Surgery.
    Awaiting for more surgeries. Reconstruction type. Facial.

    A younger man than me. Stronger too. But nice. Well-adjusted, that is.

    Details (customized a bit for obvious reasons):
    He and his wife went for a nice stroll along a river. Parked in the usual, safe, place. Walked, came back and found a guy sitting on their bonnet, drinking beer. The man simply complained. The other guy…reacted….
    Worse, the acquaintance of mine didn’t register that man’s accomplice, who blindsided him from behind. True, other “strollers” did jump to help. Too late. 30 seconds “action”, not longer.

    Perpetrators fled.
    Police came.
    Hospital time.

    Oh, BTW, still nothing on the legal front re the perpetrators.

    Don’t think the man learnt the lesson, though.

    Understandable.

  228. @peterAUS
    @reiner Tor

    Interesting questions.
    Wording too.


    ...shunned by the ladies....chicks probably dig ....Anyway....
     

    ....having girls was more important than the self-defense classes. (Best self-defense is situational awareness and avoiding bad places, also knowing when to leave and then proceeding to do so quickly
     
    How about a question for you:
    9 P.M. in a shopping center parking. You are loading stuff in your car. A car parks by. "Thump"...a driver just hit, hard, with his door, your car. An average looking guy. One guy.
    You try to complain. He says"fuck off" and starts towards you. 2 seconds to close the gap.

    Ever thought about it?
    If no let's move on.

    If yes: what....do...you....do?

    Replies: @Brutis, @peterAUS, @reiner Tor

    I thought about similar situations with Gypsies. Apologize and cut your losses. You have a normal life. He doesn’t care about prison, and having a long prison term only means prestige for him. Even if you beat him you can get into trouble; or he might want to get revenge, so he’ll come back and stab you from the back. He won’t care that it’s a cowardly way of defeating someone, in his mind it’ll be victory.

    In your situation the aggressive guy probably has less to lose. Normal people aren’t that aggressive. He’s either on drugs or just a psycho who will go to jail soon; it’s best if for beating up someone else. Again, even if you beat him you’ll get into trouble. Or he might want a revenge.

    I probably wouldn’t scratch his car after he’s gone, but that’s also an option.

    That’s the theory. When you only have two seconds, you might do something dumb like engaging in physical confrontation. But you really shouldn’t.

    • Replies: @peterAUS
    @reiner Tor

    Thank you for the honest answer.
    Especially:


    ....When you only have two seconds, you might do something dumb like engaging in physical confrontation. But you really shouldn’t.
     
    Moving on.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

  229. @Brutis
    @peterAUS

    Pull the war bracelet off your wrist beat him to a pulp and if he complains further charge him with hate crime. 😂

    Preparing arms should be instinctual in any tense situation.

    Your situation also sucks because no average looking or anyone period is going to do that.

    Would you?

    Replies: @peterAUS

    Your situation also sucks because no average looking or anyone period is going to do that.

    Hahahaha….”anyone period”? Do what? Smash you into the ground because he is simply looking for a fight? Hahaha……..
    Warrior a?
    Oh my.

    You guys really have to go out more.

    • Replies: @Brutis
    @peterAUS

    You're a fucking christcuck don't you dare talk about Warriorship LOL!

    Replies: @AP

  230. @reiner Tor
    @peterAUS

    I thought about similar situations with Gypsies. Apologize and cut your losses. You have a normal life. He doesn’t care about prison, and having a long prison term only means prestige for him. Even if you beat him you can get into trouble; or he might want to get revenge, so he’ll come back and stab you from the back. He won’t care that it’s a cowardly way of defeating someone, in his mind it’ll be victory.

    In your situation the aggressive guy probably has less to lose. Normal people aren’t that aggressive. He’s either on drugs or just a psycho who will go to jail soon; it’s best if for beating up someone else. Again, even if you beat him you’ll get into trouble. Or he might want a revenge.

    I probably wouldn’t scratch his car after he’s gone, but that’s also an option.

    That’s the theory. When you only have two seconds, you might do something dumb like engaging in physical confrontation. But you really shouldn’t.

    Replies: @peterAUS

    Thank you for the honest answer.
    Especially:

    ….When you only have two seconds, you might do something dumb like engaging in physical confrontation. But you really shouldn’t.

    Moving on.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @peterAUS

    Gypsies are often not very big. They are tough, but not very courageous either. In an honest fist fight you have a chance against most of them. Or so you think. But it will never be an honest fight. To them, fairness is not manly. They don’t care about a fair fight. They care about winning. So they will use a knife, and in a cowardly way, like from behind, when you no longer pay attention, believing to have won your altercation.

    Replies: @German_reader

  231. @peterAUS
    @reiner Tor

    Thank you for the honest answer.
    Especially:


    ....When you only have two seconds, you might do something dumb like engaging in physical confrontation. But you really shouldn’t.
     
    Moving on.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    Gypsies are often not very big. They are tough, but not very courageous either. In an honest fist fight you have a chance against most of them. Or so you think. But it will never be an honest fight. To them, fairness is not manly. They don’t care about a fair fight. They care about winning. So they will use a knife, and in a cowardly way, like from behind, when you no longer pay attention, believing to have won your altercation.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @reiner Tor

    No point in arguing with PeterAUS and his Australian tough guy act, he's already decided we're all wimps here anyway.
    I agree with you, if one has a bourgeois life, one is of course always at a disadvantage against antisocial, violence-prone elements. It's silly to believe that this reality could be mitigated by self-defense or other individual measures. The goal must be to change the system (especially the judicial system), so that crime-prone individuals and groups are eliminated from society or terrorized into better behaviour.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN, @Thorfinnsson

  232. German_reader says:
    @reiner Tor
    @peterAUS

    Gypsies are often not very big. They are tough, but not very courageous either. In an honest fist fight you have a chance against most of them. Or so you think. But it will never be an honest fight. To them, fairness is not manly. They don’t care about a fair fight. They care about winning. So they will use a knife, and in a cowardly way, like from behind, when you no longer pay attention, believing to have won your altercation.

    Replies: @German_reader

    No point in arguing with PeterAUS and his Australian tough guy act, he’s already decided we’re all wimps here anyway.
    I agree with you, if one has a bourgeois life, one is of course always at a disadvantage against antisocial, violence-prone elements. It’s silly to believe that this reality could be mitigated by self-defense or other individual measures. The goal must be to change the system (especially the judicial system), so that crime-prone individuals and groups are eliminated from society or terrorized into better behaviour.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    @German_reader

    You can’t terrorize them into better behavior. You can either lock them up for life, or kill on the spot. It’s like with mad dog: shoot first, ask questions later.

    , @Thorfinnsson
    @German_reader

    PeterAUS is perhaps being a bit silly in this thread, but it's certainly true that you can't always rely on the state to protect you--especially these days.

    Taking precautions to protect yourself and loved ones is sensible and responsible.

    The most important thing of course is situational awareness. If you can avoid a bad situation in the first place, or get out of it, that's best. But you can't be sure of that, so being prepared to defend yourself is useful.

    That of course doesn't mean you should go out spoiling for a fight or fantasize about yourself as some kind of a tough guy, even if you are tough.

    Lift weights, maintain awareness of your surroundings, avoid groups of young men (especially but not exclusively vibrants), don't get drunk in public, don't run your mouth, practice basic self-defense techniques, and if needed carry a weapon. And that doesn't necessarily mean a firearm or a knife (though it could). Something as simple as a tactical flashlight is very useful.

    Replies: @German_reader

  233. @German_reader
    @reiner Tor

    No point in arguing with PeterAUS and his Australian tough guy act, he's already decided we're all wimps here anyway.
    I agree with you, if one has a bourgeois life, one is of course always at a disadvantage against antisocial, violence-prone elements. It's silly to believe that this reality could be mitigated by self-defense or other individual measures. The goal must be to change the system (especially the judicial system), so that crime-prone individuals and groups are eliminated from society or terrorized into better behaviour.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN, @Thorfinnsson

    You can’t terrorize them into better behavior. You can either lock them up for life, or kill on the spot. It’s like with mad dog: shoot first, ask questions later.

  234. @German_reader
    @reiner Tor

    No point in arguing with PeterAUS and his Australian tough guy act, he's already decided we're all wimps here anyway.
    I agree with you, if one has a bourgeois life, one is of course always at a disadvantage against antisocial, violence-prone elements. It's silly to believe that this reality could be mitigated by self-defense or other individual measures. The goal must be to change the system (especially the judicial system), so that crime-prone individuals and groups are eliminated from society or terrorized into better behaviour.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN, @Thorfinnsson

    PeterAUS is perhaps being a bit silly in this thread, but it’s certainly true that you can’t always rely on the state to protect you–especially these days.

    Taking precautions to protect yourself and loved ones is sensible and responsible.

    The most important thing of course is situational awareness. If you can avoid a bad situation in the first place, or get out of it, that’s best. But you can’t be sure of that, so being prepared to defend yourself is useful.

    That of course doesn’t mean you should go out spoiling for a fight or fantasize about yourself as some kind of a tough guy, even if you are tough.

    Lift weights, maintain awareness of your surroundings, avoid groups of young men (especially but not exclusively vibrants), don’t get drunk in public, don’t run your mouth, practice basic self-defense techniques, and if needed carry a weapon. And that doesn’t necessarily mean a firearm or a knife (though it could). Something as simple as a tactical flashlight is very useful.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Thorfinnsson


    but it’s certainly true that you can’t always rely on the state to protect you–especially these days.
     
    Sure, but look at PeterAUS' post (229) about his acquaintance who was hospitalized...what exactly should the guy have done in this situation? Preemptively attack the guy who was sitting on his car, because he might get violent? Even if you manage to overpower your opponent in that situation (and what if he has a knife and uses it?), it's you who is the aggressor in the eyes of the law. And unlike some antisocial scum you've got your bourgeois life to lose. Over a situation that might possibly not have turned violent at all.
    A willingness to use violence if absolutely necessary (and the ability for it) is certainly something that should be cultivated in men, but PeterAUS' posturing is silly imo.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson

  235. @Dmitry
    @songbird

    Obviously, should wear the clothes they like, to the extent the don't want to disappoint the local norms.

    On general topic of aesthetic norms of a society. Everything has costs and benefits.

    A very aesthetic society like Italy, looks beautiful from outside. But it is slightly oppressive to live with the social norm to iron your clothes, polish your shoes every morning, and buy a new shirt everytime you mess up with spaghetti. It adds a layer of stress and extra work, to live in an aesthetic society.

    On the other hand, an unpretentious, nonaesthetic society, where women do not care about wearing makeup, you can go to the office in your pajamas, and you can have muddy shoes and tomato stains on your clothes - seems much more preferable and refreshing from a viewpoint of personal comfort. But then you have to pay the cost that the population will appear shabby, and outsiders will laugh a bit at your appearance.

    Replies: @Brutis, @songbird

    I think it is kind of interesting to see the clothes women pick for themselves. To a certain degree, fashions that show more skin are pushed on them, but there is still some room for modesty.

    Tattoos on women are disgusting, but perhaps have important signaling value.

    One of the downsides of relaxed social norms on clothing is the globalization of clothes. For instance, the high penetration of English words on clothes, even to the ends of the Earth, or people making fun of others for not having the top American brand of jeans.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @songbird


    globalization of clothes
     
    There's still huge diversity between clothes cultures of different countries - if not in actual style or material of clothes, then in terms of standards and effort.

    Italy is extreme, aesthetic culture. For man in Italian culture, I believe (at least as how they look), still is expected to wear a clean suit to work without tomato stains, or to polish their shoes before they see their mama. And then they also are supposed to change their style for different situations - so wearing nikes is for going to the cafe, but not for expensive restaurant, etc.

    The opposite extreme nonaesthetic culture is Israel, which has aesthetic norms of third world peasants, where both sexes can walk in the street wearing pajamas, women often do not wear make up, do not care how they look, and people can go to the office with dirty shoes, do not have to shave, and, in general, the messier the appearance, the more you will look like a native.

    Intermediate is something like Russia or England, where there is general expectation and pressure for women to care about appearance, but not so much for men.

    Italian social obsession with aesthetics, results in attractive clothed people, and can be viewed as a higher form of civilization. On the other hand, it would surely be stressful to live in such a culture, adding additional work to your life.

    Even in startup events in Italy, people are wearing clean clothes and carefully groomed beards and girls all covered with makeup. Lol this stylish and carefully groom nerds - only in Italy.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YL0uOkbaIm8

    people making fun of others for not having the top American brand of jeans.

     

    Levis are just a good quality and well designed product, where people buy it not for fashion, but because of function.

    The fucked thing, is why they cost double the price outside America than inside.
  236. @Dmitry
    @Rosie

    Combination of economic and political disasters.

    I have read much higher proportion of women in Spain had worked as a prostitute at some time moment in their life by the 1950s decade, when I read a history book of Spain which was written in Spanish.

    However, here is from one history book written in English.


    For all of its restrictions on social life and lifestyles, the Franco regime tolerated prostitution for many years. Ironically, the argument used to justify the maintenance of brothels was a moral one: to preserve the purity of honorable Spanish girls, their fiancées had to have a sexual outlet to avoid pressuring their prospective brides into compromising situations.

    Prostitution rose to epidemic proportions in the immediate postwar period, as widows, single mothers, and working-class women had few other options to avoid starvation for themselves and their families. By some estimates, as many as half a million families lacked a father or husband in the home, due to imprisonment, exile, or deaths during the civil war and the repression that followed. Indeed, the state estimated that more than 75 percent of women involved in prostitution engaged in the practice because of economic desperation, while another 15 percent had been abandoned by the fathers of their children and therefore lacked respectable alternatives. Only 10 percent were prostitutes because they preferred a life of “vice and degeneration” over more accepted alternatives.

    There were more than one thousand officially tolerated brothels in the 1940s, with thousands more sex workers operating outside of government supervision. One newspaper calculated that there were as many as twenty thousand prostitutes in Barcelona alone. As a result of this tolerance, sexually transmitted diseases increased to epidemic proportions, constituting more than one-third of illnesses recorded by soldiers in 1940. The church’s resistance to contraception, including condoms, likely contributed to the dramatic rise in these afflictions.

    Many of the prostitutes came to the profession because of their political background, or that of their husbands. Repression after 1939 was severe on men and women who had identified with the Republic, whether as members of leftist political parties, or even as spouses of activists in the Communist, anarchist, or Socialist parties. The regime banned many of these women from gainful employment, and as many were separated from their husbands through exile or imprisonment, they had few options other than black market activities or prostitution. The Nationalists already regarded feminist and pro-Republican women as “degenerate” and “ugly” for their public demonstrations for radical social change during the civil war and perhaps felt little pity after the conflict for those forced into this kind of tragic life... From the beginning of the postwar period, the Catholic Church supported a prohibition on prostitution, but only in the mid-1950s did the government ban the practice. The final decision came only after a visit by the U.S. cardinal, Francis Spellman, who convinced Franco in 1956 that such a ban would improve Spain’s international reputation.
     

    http://93.174.95.29/_ads/D250CDCB8DA995A81E9BC2BDEE602450

    Replies: @Rosie

    Ironically, the argument used to justify the maintenance of brothels was a moral one: to preserve the purity of honorable Spanish girls, their fiancées had to have a sexual outlet to avoid pressuring their prospective brides into compromising situations.

    Yes, indeed. There has always been a stench of hypocrisy surrounding prostitution.

    Some must be dehumanized and degraded so that others may be elevated.

  237. German_reader says:
    @Thorfinnsson
    @German_reader

    PeterAUS is perhaps being a bit silly in this thread, but it's certainly true that you can't always rely on the state to protect you--especially these days.

    Taking precautions to protect yourself and loved ones is sensible and responsible.

    The most important thing of course is situational awareness. If you can avoid a bad situation in the first place, or get out of it, that's best. But you can't be sure of that, so being prepared to defend yourself is useful.

    That of course doesn't mean you should go out spoiling for a fight or fantasize about yourself as some kind of a tough guy, even if you are tough.

    Lift weights, maintain awareness of your surroundings, avoid groups of young men (especially but not exclusively vibrants), don't get drunk in public, don't run your mouth, practice basic self-defense techniques, and if needed carry a weapon. And that doesn't necessarily mean a firearm or a knife (though it could). Something as simple as a tactical flashlight is very useful.

    Replies: @German_reader

    but it’s certainly true that you can’t always rely on the state to protect you–especially these days.

    Sure, but look at PeterAUS’ post (229) about his acquaintance who was hospitalized…what exactly should the guy have done in this situation? Preemptively attack the guy who was sitting on his car, because he might get violent? Even if you manage to overpower your opponent in that situation (and what if he has a knife and uses it?), it’s you who is the aggressor in the eyes of the law. And unlike some antisocial scum you’ve got your bourgeois life to lose. Over a situation that might possibly not have turned violent at all.
    A willingness to use violence if absolutely necessary (and the ability for it) is certainly something that should be cultivated in men, but PeterAUS’ posturing is silly imo.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    @German_reader

    I think that scenario is rather unlikely--let's just say it's bad luck.

    PeterAUS can speak for himself, but I assume his point was that if his friend had been tougher there either would have been no assault or he wouldn't have come off so badly.

    As to what you should do in that situation, I would suggest before doing anything else that you take a photograph. If the person is menacing or has the possibility to be, perhaps just leave and come back. The hood of your car is already scratched after all and won't repair itself just because you tell the guy off or kick his ass (or get yourself beaten to a pulp).

    You're also not going to lose your bourgeois life over battery charges. Most bourgeois people overestimate how punitive the criminal justice system is, and they also overestimate how much other people care about you having a criminal record.

    I agree that his posturing is silly.

    Replies: @peterAUS, @reiner Tor

  238. @songbird
    I guess I am kind of a libertarian on clothes, within certain reason. Should be the law that:

    1.) Any healthy observer is required to kick the butt of anyone with their pants purposefully falling down
    2.) You need a certain BMI index to be allowed to dress like a slut, and there is a hard age limit
    3.) Anyone wearing a Che shirt should be sent to a 24 hour re-education camp

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Rosie

    I guess I am kind of a libertarian on clothes, within certain reason.

    There has only been one thing that has ever really bothered me: Girls with their bathing suits literally up their ass at a family pool where children are playing. Thankfully, I haven’t seen this very often.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @Rosie

    My favorite place to take a dip are rural ponds and lakes. I don't want to sound like a misanthrope, but it really is nice not having anyone around (usually.)

  239. @German_reader
    @Thorfinnsson


    but it’s certainly true that you can’t always rely on the state to protect you–especially these days.
     
    Sure, but look at PeterAUS' post (229) about his acquaintance who was hospitalized...what exactly should the guy have done in this situation? Preemptively attack the guy who was sitting on his car, because he might get violent? Even if you manage to overpower your opponent in that situation (and what if he has a knife and uses it?), it's you who is the aggressor in the eyes of the law. And unlike some antisocial scum you've got your bourgeois life to lose. Over a situation that might possibly not have turned violent at all.
    A willingness to use violence if absolutely necessary (and the ability for it) is certainly something that should be cultivated in men, but PeterAUS' posturing is silly imo.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson

    I think that scenario is rather unlikely–let’s just say it’s bad luck.

    PeterAUS can speak for himself, but I assume his point was that if his friend had been tougher there either would have been no assault or he wouldn’t have come off so badly.

    As to what you should do in that situation, I would suggest before doing anything else that you take a photograph. If the person is menacing or has the possibility to be, perhaps just leave and come back. The hood of your car is already scratched after all and won’t repair itself just because you tell the guy off or kick his ass (or get yourself beaten to a pulp).

    You’re also not going to lose your bourgeois life over battery charges. Most bourgeois people overestimate how punitive the criminal justice system is, and they also overestimate how much other people care about you having a criminal record.

    I agree that his posturing is silly.

    • Agree: German_reader
    • Replies: @peterAUS
    @Thorfinnsson


    ....I assume his point was that if his friend had been tougher there either would have been no assault or he wouldn’t have come off so badly..
     
    Correct assumption.
    Not a friend, though; acquaintance.

    As for the rest of related blather here it's good to see most of the people in this pub having no clue about the ritual of violence.
    Last time they faced something like that was, like..never. But they read about it.

    Just funny.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    , @reiner Tor
    @Thorfinnsson

    I think his point was that someone sitting on the hood of your car is actually looking for a fight. When noticing it, you should immediately be aware that the guy is pretty likely looking for an excuse to attack you. It’s also possible he’s not alone. So he should’ve been prepared for the attack and for the other attacker, and either avoided the situation altogether (just wait for them to leave from a distance), or been ready for a fight against both.

    That much is part of the situational awareness. It still doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t avoid a fight with such a low class element, because you absolutely should. Taking a picture might be a good idea, for example I once pretty foolishly took a photo of a smoking black Muslim in France onboard a train in a Paris suburb with a vibrant population (we took the wrong train), and he noticed and started talking in French, but didn’t attack. (I cannot stress enough that I shouldn’t have done anything: it’s not like I prevented the smoking or anything.)

  240. @Rosie
    @songbird


    I guess I am kind of a libertarian on clothes, within certain reason.
     
    There has only been one thing that has ever really bothered me: Girls with their bathing suits literally up their ass at a family pool where children are playing. Thankfully, I haven't seen this very often.

    Replies: @songbird

    My favorite place to take a dip are rural ponds and lakes. I don’t want to sound like a misanthrope, but it really is nice not having anyone around (usually.)

  241. @songbird
    @Thorfinnsson


    Many evolutionarily novel foods appear to be contributing to the global epidemic of insulin resistance, obesity
     
    If I recall, Jared Diamond thinks that the reason that whites are less susceptible to type II diabetes is recent evolution. Essentially, Europeans were exposed to a greater abundance of food due to their more developed trade networks and the Columbian exchange, plus the Industrial Revolution, and the earlier changes that preceded it. People with early onset type II diabetes tended not to reproduce very well, so it changed the gene frequencies significantly. At least in theory, the rest of the world will go through the same transition, though modern medicine might alter the process somewhat.

    It is interesting that Diamond could have a viewpoint like that - relatively short term evolution - and still hold crazy ideas about Papua New Guineans being Übermenschen. Though, I believe he technically isn't a globalist.

    Replies: @Logan

    . Essentially, Europeans were exposed to a greater abundance of food due to their more developed trade networks and the Columbian exchange, plus the Industrial Revolution, and the earlier changes that preceded it.

    There were still frequent episodes of starvation up till the latter part of the 19th century in Europe.

    That’s really rapid evolution!

    • Replies: @songbird
    @Logan

    If Diamond's right, it must have been a pretty big reproductive advantage.

    Still, I'm not sure. He had that theory like 13 years ago or more. And there's been a lot of archaeogenetics since then. Should probably be testable by now, although it has a complicated genetic basis.

    One thing is for certain: susceptibilities to diabetes (type II) vary greatly, and Europeans don't seem to be very susceptible, at least on a comparative basis. When they do get it, they are usually old and not young.

  242. @Logan
    @songbird

    . Essentially, Europeans were exposed to a greater abundance of food due to their more developed trade networks and the Columbian exchange, plus the Industrial Revolution, and the earlier changes that preceded it.

    There were still frequent episodes of starvation up till the latter part of the 19th century in Europe.

    That's really rapid evolution!

    Replies: @songbird

    If Diamond’s right, it must have been a pretty big reproductive advantage.

    Still, I’m not sure. He had that theory like 13 years ago or more. And there’s been a lot of archaeogenetics since then. Should probably be testable by now, although it has a complicated genetic basis.

    One thing is for certain: susceptibilities to diabetes (type II) vary greatly, and Europeans don’t seem to be very susceptible, at least on a comparative basis. When they do get it, they are usually old and not young.

  243. @songbird
    @Dmitry

    I think it is kind of interesting to see the clothes women pick for themselves. To a certain degree, fashions that show more skin are pushed on them, but there is still some room for modesty.

    Tattoos on women are disgusting, but perhaps have important signaling value.

    One of the downsides of relaxed social norms on clothing is the globalization of clothes. For instance, the high penetration of English words on clothes, even to the ends of the Earth, or people making fun of others for not having the top American brand of jeans.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    globalization of clothes

    There’s still huge diversity between clothes cultures of different countries – if not in actual style or material of clothes, then in terms of standards and effort.

    Italy is extreme, aesthetic culture. For man in Italian culture, I believe (at least as how they look), still is expected to wear a clean suit to work without tomato stains, or to polish their shoes before they see their mama. And then they also are supposed to change their style for different situations – so wearing nikes is for going to the cafe, but not for expensive restaurant, etc.

    The opposite extreme nonaesthetic culture is Israel, which has aesthetic norms of third world peasants, where both sexes can walk in the street wearing pajamas, women often do not wear make up, do not care how they look, and people can go to the office with dirty shoes, do not have to shave, and, in general, the messier the appearance, the more you will look like a native.

    Intermediate is something like Russia or England, where there is general expectation and pressure for women to care about appearance, but not so much for men.

    Italian social obsession with aesthetics, results in attractive clothed people, and can be viewed as a higher form of civilization. On the other hand, it would surely be stressful to live in such a culture, adding additional work to your life.

    Even in startup events in Italy, people are wearing clean clothes and carefully groomed beards and girls all covered with makeup. Lol this stylish and carefully groom nerds – only in Italy.

    people making fun of others for not having the top American brand of jeans.

    Levis are just a good quality and well designed product, where people buy it not for fashion, but because of function.

    The fucked thing, is why they cost double the price outside America than inside.

  244. Gerard1234 [AKA "Gerard2"] says:
    @Mikhail
    Regarding Mark Galeotti:

    http://johnhelmer.net/mark-galeotti-is-a-fact-faker-his-book-on-russian-crime-is-a-hate-crime-a-war-crime/

    He gets way too much play as evidenced in part by his RT appearances, only to then see him come back with an inaccurate JRL promoted Moscow Times hack piece about that station.

    Replies: @Gerard1234

    Very interesting. From the little that I’ve have seen, it’s still easy to decipher that this guy is not a Russian “expert”. Apart from the clear anti-Russian stance it was the ridiculous use of Russian words of obvious English origin that this cretin was using to make him sound as if he was an expert in Russian!

    You know, like ” the Russians have this word for spreading dubious theories….. they call it дезинформация” – utterly ridiculous nonsense like that

    • Replies: @Mikhail
    @Gerard1234

    Mark Galeotti has carried on like a troll, under the guise of an academic:

    https://twitter.com/MarkGaleotti/status/553627966841044993?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E553628466990821378&ref_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.unz.com%2Fakarlin%2Fopen-thread-89%2F

    In the instance Galeotti is referring to, he wasn't called a "Russophobe" (I tend not to use that word.) See:

    https://www.counterpunch.org/2015/01/09/deconstructing-establishment-kremlinology/

    https://www.eurasiareview.com/13012015-enigmatic-russia-detractors-analysis/

    Like a troll, Galeotti sidesteps my detailed remarks concerning his comments which I accurately presented. The John Helmer piece I linked further up this thread notes how Galeotti gets a fairly prime appointment (NYU et al) , only to then reappear somewhere else.

    According to Helmer, Galeotti had ties to the Brit Communist James Klugman, who framed pro-Tito/anti-Mihailovic propaganda.

    At present, Galeotti appears more likely to get on RT, when compared to Mark Sleboda, Helmer and yours truly.

    Galeotti's recent take on RT:

    https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2019/09/02/why-i-talked-to-rt-a67100

    From a few years back a different POV on that station:

    https://www.eurasiareview.com/29122014-with-room-for-improvement-rt-gives-time-to-diverse-views-analysis/

  245. @Philip Owen
    I have Amazon Prime. I even watched the video channel recently. They have a new subtitled Russian series available, золотая орда. It's very good for learners. The speaking is slow and deliberate. I think it is an attempt at majestic but it makes everything easy to follow. As usual, subtitles are not literal translations but help a lot. It is a marvellous exercise in perfective verbs. The characters are all reporting past events or plotting the future.

    The film doesn't claim historical accuracy. It is a Russian nationalist, especially Orthodox, narrative. The crowd and battle scenes are low budget. It is mostly intrigue. I guess the Russian TV audience is as feminised as in the US.

    Replies: @Gerard1234

    I guess the Russian TV audience is as feminised as in the US.

    Probably more gays/extremely camp people on Russian tv, than there is on US tv.

  246. Gerard1234 [AKA "Gerard2"] says:
    @songbird
    @Thulean Friend

    White South Africans are an interesting group. For once, I am going to agree with Bliss, and say that you can often see the non-white admixture in their faces. It is kind of startling to think about: most of the time it is a low amount like 2-3%, and a mix at that (Malay, Bushmen, and Bantu), but I swear, you still can often see it. Like take a good look at five men, and you will see it in at least one. Maybe, these people are a higher percentage admixture?

    But I concur in general: they are at least politically white, if not fully European. And it is utterly amazing how South African expats who have had friends raped and killed, who say they are never going back, and are vocally grim on the country's prospects, often repeat mainline rhetoric about discrimination being wrong, or even Orania being wrong. Or the Boers being racists.

    Same lesson regarding America. Americans are just Europeans in North America, though many Europeans would like to think differently. In fact, Americans might be better situated, being further from Africa. Some think that America had no culture, and that is why it was susceptible. This is an error: it did have one.

    Replies: @German_reader, @neutral, @Gerard1234

    And it is utterly amazing how South African expats who have had friends raped and killed, who say they are never going back, and are vocally grim on the country’s prospects, often repeat mainline rhetoric about discrimination being wrong, or even Orania being wrong. Or the Boers being racists.

    From what I have seen from my friends there, this applies just as much to the Indian population who have emigrated from South Africa, as it does to the white population. They say the exact same things. I would even guess that White-African intermarriage in South Africa is less rare than Indian-African.

    Many, many South African Indians are in UK, US, Australia, Canada, New Zealand ( i.e the exact same places that most of the white South Africans have emigrated to). Apart from some of those of Huguenot heritage going to France, none of the White South Africans have emigrated to Holland or continental Europe

    but despite all this, the white population in South Africa is still very stable in the years since the change of power…..compare that to a shithole like Ukraine.

  247. @Thorfinnsson
    @German_reader

    I think that scenario is rather unlikely--let's just say it's bad luck.

    PeterAUS can speak for himself, but I assume his point was that if his friend had been tougher there either would have been no assault or he wouldn't have come off so badly.

    As to what you should do in that situation, I would suggest before doing anything else that you take a photograph. If the person is menacing or has the possibility to be, perhaps just leave and come back. The hood of your car is already scratched after all and won't repair itself just because you tell the guy off or kick his ass (or get yourself beaten to a pulp).

    You're also not going to lose your bourgeois life over battery charges. Most bourgeois people overestimate how punitive the criminal justice system is, and they also overestimate how much other people care about you having a criminal record.

    I agree that his posturing is silly.

    Replies: @peterAUS, @reiner Tor

    ….I assume his point was that if his friend had been tougher there either would have been no assault or he wouldn’t have come off so badly..

    Correct assumption.
    Not a friend, though; acquaintance.

    As for the rest of related blather here it’s good to see most of the people in this pub having no clue about the ritual of violence.
    Last time they faced something like that was, like..never. But they read about it.

    Just funny.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @peterAUS

    I guess you can now go report to your bosses that we didn’t take your bait and won’t commit acts of violence. As you have guessed correctly, we have never even thought of killing anything more dangerous than a hornet, and it’s unlikely to change. We’re not 20, after all.

    Replies: @Brutis, @peterAUS

  248. @Rosie
    @Thulean Friend


    Ballet at its apogee is one of the purest artforms I have ever had to pleasure to enjoy and it is far more sublime (at most sensual) rather than sexual if done right.
     
    Ballet seems "pure" to you now only because you are sexually desensitized by explicit pornography.

    https://www.artsy.net/article/artsy-editorial-sordid-truth-degass-ballet-dancers

    Replies: @Thulean Friend, @Mikel

    you are sexually desensitized by explicit pornography

    That is a harsh thing to tell a man, Rosie. Did you really mean what you said?

    Perhaps due to his being a Swede, TF did not take offense but you might have gotten a different reaction.

    I any case, I really don’t know what some guys here are on about. It’s not that many women act slutty because we men “allow” them to. It’s that we gladly welcome those behaviors. And if they didn’t affect our daughters and wives, we would be even more enthusiastic about them. When in the history of humanity have men got as much sex as they desired?

    • Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous
    @Mikel


    That is a harsh thing to tell a man, Rosie. Did you really mean what you said?

     

    Rosie is a typical woman that is incapable of proper and serious thought. She's also clearly showed herself to be quite a female svidomist (that term sounds cooler than Feminist imo).

    I any case, I really don’t know what some guys here are on about. It’s not that many women act slutty because we men “allow” them to. It’s that we gladly welcome those behaviors. And if they didn’t affect our daughters and wives, we would be even more enthusiastic about them. When in the history of humanity have men got as much sex as they desired?

     

    The part where some men have welcomed this, especially with the start of the Sexual Revolution in the USA from the 1960's and onward is true.

    However, you are wrong when you imply that men are getting lots of sex now. Young people, and especially men are now actually having less sex than ever. Just take a look at the statistics:

    https://beta.washingtonpost.com/business/2019/03/29/share-americans-not-having-sex-has-reached-record-high/?noredirect=on

    https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/12/the-sex-recession/573949/

    Where do you think all the incels are coming from? Where do you think incel shooters like Elliot Roger come from?

    You've failed to understand the dynamics of sexual relationships between men and women on a large scale.

    Ideally, for one man, being able to fertilize as many women as possible with his seed is what is desirable on a primitive biological level as this is the most reliable way for a man to secure the continuation of his genetic legacy. A man can run into all sorts of problems with this, as until modern times and the availability of the appropriate technology, doubt always existed as to which man's seed that a given baby would be a product of.

    However, for a woman, when she is fertilized by a man, there is obviously no problem as to whether her genetic legacy has been continued onto a child she gives birth to. This obviously suggests different mating strategies between men and women. For women the issue involves getting access to the highest possible quality male seed while also making sure that a given man will commit by giving her his resources, security, attention and whatever so she can raise the offspring smoothly. However, to do this, women do not have to necessarily commit to one man to do this, instead they can cuckold a man they have found to deceive and take his resources under the illusion that the woman is raising his seed. In other cases, some men are so pathetic that they volunteer to give their resources and attention to single mothers who freely spend their time searching to be fertilized by the highest quality possible Alpha seed. Most people are not entirely conscious of this, but these are the basic natural instincts that drive their sexual behaviors.

    This is why a society cannot function when sexual access and reproduction are made upon the basis of female mating preferences. In order for a society to function, women must be made to settle for men that are roughly at their level of quality. That is, in terms of the typical rating of women from 1-10, men can also be rated the same, so whatever a woman's number, she must settle for a man with the same number. At least, this is normal, healthy and ensures societal functioning. Instead, what exists since the "sexual liberation" is that women are all allowed without any restraint to pursue a small amount of high quality/status men, "Chads", while deciding to ignore all the other men because they can and have the freedom to do so.

    As for what makes some men "Chads" or "Alpha" in the eyes of women while other men are either ignored or considered to be "Beta", is another matter. This dynamic and reality is best explained in Roger F Devlin's book, Sexual Utopia in Power. Unless anyone is interested in buying it (I believe the author has given his permission for the free download place?), here is a place where a free PDF download of it can be obtained:

    https://www.toqonline.com/archives/v6n2/DevlinTOQV6N2.pdf

    I've done my best to explain this in brief, but breaking the illusion that men get sexual access to women by being "nice", white knighting for women and coddling them with large amounts of their resources and attention is vital. It is vital because it helps men personally understand how best to engage in sexual mating or long term family formation with women but also it helps those who want to change society and increase birthrates. It is with good reason that I am dead serious about abolishing higher education for women and the importance of women needing to become the private property of men. When I came across this realization recently, my life has changed for the better.

    Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous, @AP, @Mikel

  249. @Gerard1234
    @Mikhail

    Very interesting. From the little that I've have seen, it's still easy to decipher that this guy is not a Russian "expert". Apart from the clear anti-Russian stance it was the ridiculous use of Russian words of obvious English origin that this cretin was using to make him sound as if he was an expert in Russian!

    You know, like " the Russians have this word for spreading dubious theories..... they call it дезинформация" - utterly ridiculous nonsense like that

    Replies: @Mikhail

    Mark Galeotti has carried on like a troll, under the guise of an academic:

    In the instance Galeotti is referring to, he wasn’t called a “Russophobe” (I tend not to use that word.) See:

    https://www.counterpunch.org/2015/01/09/deconstructing-establishment-kremlinology/

    https://www.eurasiareview.com/13012015-enigmatic-russia-detractors-analysis/

    Like a troll, Galeotti sidesteps my detailed remarks concerning his comments which I accurately presented. The John Helmer piece I linked further up this thread notes how Galeotti gets a fairly prime appointment (NYU et al) , only to then reappear somewhere else.

    According to Helmer, Galeotti had ties to the Brit Communist James Klugman, who framed pro-Tito/anti-Mihailovic propaganda.

    At present, Galeotti appears more likely to get on RT, when compared to Mark Sleboda, Helmer and yours truly.

    Galeotti’s recent take on RT:

    https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2019/09/02/why-i-talked-to-rt-a67100

    From a few years back a different POV on that station:

    https://www.eurasiareview.com/29122014-with-room-for-improvement-rt-gives-time-to-diverse-views-analysis/

  250. @Mikel
    @Rosie


    you are sexually desensitized by explicit pornography
     
    That is a harsh thing to tell a man, Rosie. Did you really mean what you said?

    Perhaps due to his being a Swede, TF did not take offense but you might have gotten a different reaction.

    I any case, I really don't know what some guys here are on about. It's not that many women act slutty because we men "allow" them to. It's that we gladly welcome those behaviors. And if they didn't affect our daughters and wives, we would be even more enthusiastic about them. When in the history of humanity have men got as much sex as they desired?

    Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous

    That is a harsh thing to tell a man, Rosie. Did you really mean what you said?

    Rosie is a typical woman that is incapable of proper and serious thought. She’s also clearly showed herself to be quite a female svidomist (that term sounds cooler than Feminist imo).

    I any case, I really don’t know what some guys here are on about. It’s not that many women act slutty because we men “allow” them to. It’s that we gladly welcome those behaviors. And if they didn’t affect our daughters and wives, we would be even more enthusiastic about them. When in the history of humanity have men got as much sex as they desired?

    The part where some men have welcomed this, especially with the start of the Sexual Revolution in the USA from the 1960’s and onward is true.

    However, you are wrong when you imply that men are getting lots of sex now. Young people, and especially men are now actually having less sex than ever. Just take a look at the statistics:

    https://beta.washingtonpost.com/business/2019/03/29/share-americans-not-having-sex-has-reached-record-high/?noredirect=on

    https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/12/the-sex-recession/573949/

    Where do you think all the incels are coming from? Where do you think incel shooters like Elliot Roger come from?

    You’ve failed to understand the dynamics of sexual relationships between men and women on a large scale.

    Ideally, for one man, being able to fertilize as many women as possible with his seed is what is desirable on a primitive biological level as this is the most reliable way for a man to secure the continuation of his genetic legacy. A man can run into all sorts of problems with this, as until modern times and the availability of the appropriate technology, doubt always existed as to which man’s seed that a given baby would be a product of.

    However, for a woman, when she is fertilized by a man, there is obviously no problem as to whether her genetic legacy has been continued onto a child she gives birth to. This obviously suggests different mating strategies between men and women. For women the issue involves getting access to the highest possible quality male seed while also making sure that a given man will commit by giving her his resources, security, attention and whatever so she can raise the offspring smoothly. However, to do this, women do not have to necessarily commit to one man to do this, instead they can cuckold a man they have found to deceive and take his resources under the illusion that the woman is raising his seed. In other cases, some men are so pathetic that they volunteer to give their resources and attention to single mothers who freely spend their time searching to be fertilized by the highest quality possible Alpha seed. Most people are not entirely conscious of this, but these are the basic natural instincts that drive their sexual behaviors.

    This is why a society cannot function when sexual access and reproduction are made upon the basis of female mating preferences. In order for a society to function, women must be made to settle for men that are roughly at their level of quality. That is, in terms of the typical rating of women from 1-10, men can also be rated the same, so whatever a woman’s number, she must settle for a man with the same number. At least, this is normal, healthy and ensures societal functioning. Instead, what exists since the “sexual liberation” is that women are all allowed without any restraint to pursue a small amount of high quality/status men, “Chads”, while deciding to ignore all the other men because they can and have the freedom to do so.

    As for what makes some men “Chads” or “Alpha” in the eyes of women while other men are either ignored or considered to be “Beta”, is another matter. This dynamic and reality is best explained in Roger F Devlin’s book, Sexual Utopia in Power. Unless anyone is interested in buying it (I believe the author has given his permission for the free download place?), here is a place where a free PDF download of it can be obtained:

    https://www.toqonline.com/archives/v6n2/DevlinTOQV6N2.pdf

    I’ve done my best to explain this in brief, but breaking the illusion that men get sexual access to women by being “nice”, white knighting for women and coddling them with large amounts of their resources and attention is vital. It is vital because it helps men personally understand how best to engage in sexual mating or long term family formation with women but also it helps those who want to change society and increase birthrates. It is with good reason that I am dead serious about abolishing higher education for women and the importance of women needing to become the private property of men. When I came across this realization recently, my life has changed for the better.

    • Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous
    @TheTotallyAnonymous



    Oh, by the way, Saint Elliot did nothing wrong!


    https://pixel.nymag.com/imgs/fashion/daily/2018/04/27/27-elliot-rodger.nocrop.w710.h2147483647.jpg

    https://www.yourtango.com/sites/default/files/styles/body_image_default/public/2016%20Oct/rodger%20screenshot%20crop.jpg

    https://external-preview.redd.it/XUuoAsrRpJFeYlJA2Fdv_pRUWKleKuqkbiD1Uj5hQBk.jpg?auto=webp&s=9615218acf323ea838ea202ae73ae2f393c2072d

    https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/1046199550216556546/t9-qJ_JA_400x400.jpg

    https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/BAF7/production/_101036874_elliot_rodger_shutterstock.jpg

    https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/70BF/production/_101036882_elliot_rodger_2_shutterstoc.jpg

    Replies: @Anonymoose

    , @AP
    @TheTotallyAnonymous

    This is what happens when peasants are forced to become literate as they get uprooted. Minds get filled with nonsense.

    You needed to stay in your Balkan village where your family and priest would have helped you find a suitable mate and with her encouragement you would just do honest work and live a decent life instead of becoming some sort of bitter "incel" (?) causing trouble for yourself and hopefully not anyone else in whatever Western country was foolish enough to let you in.

    Replies: @Brutis, @TheTotallyAnonymous

    , @Mikel
    @TheTotallyAnonymous


    Young people, and especially men are now actually having less sex than ever.
     
    I doubt that is true. For the average (or above-average) man mating with multiple partners has become much more likely than it would have been had there been no female "sexual liberation". And we all know some below average-looking men who have developed successful alternative strategies to attract women out of necessity. Moreover, dating skills, that were of paramount importance when I was a teenager, have become much less important due to the internet and dating apps.

    I do tend to see a certain evolution among the youngest generations towards a more conservative approach to sexual relations than was common in my youth (during the aftermath of the sexual revolution) but that is, if anything, a recent phenomenon not directly linked to lack of opportunities (even more so in societies mature enough to decriminalize prostitution).


    In order for a society to function, women must be made to settle for men that are roughly at their level of quality.
     
    This is pretty much what ends up happening if you just leave things alone. But it is debatable that this is the ideal outcome from a societal perspective. On the one hand, stable families are an unquestionable benefit for our civilized way of life. On the other hand, having alpha males reproduce at a higher rate than the rest is more eugenic.

    In the small rural communities of Fundamentalist Mormons in the Western USA they still practice the organized mating of so-called "seeders", who are chosen by the Church to impregnate women married to other men. Unfortunately, these communities are nowadays so small that they have become affected by consanguinity problems. But I live surrounded by Mormons who were subject to this sort of practices during generations and my impression is that they built a very well functioning society of healthy and good-looking individuals.

    Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous

  251. @TheTotallyAnonymous
    @Mikel


    That is a harsh thing to tell a man, Rosie. Did you really mean what you said?

     

    Rosie is a typical woman that is incapable of proper and serious thought. She's also clearly showed herself to be quite a female svidomist (that term sounds cooler than Feminist imo).

    I any case, I really don’t know what some guys here are on about. It’s not that many women act slutty because we men “allow” them to. It’s that we gladly welcome those behaviors. And if they didn’t affect our daughters and wives, we would be even more enthusiastic about them. When in the history of humanity have men got as much sex as they desired?

     

    The part where some men have welcomed this, especially with the start of the Sexual Revolution in the USA from the 1960's and onward is true.

    However, you are wrong when you imply that men are getting lots of sex now. Young people, and especially men are now actually having less sex than ever. Just take a look at the statistics:

    https://beta.washingtonpost.com/business/2019/03/29/share-americans-not-having-sex-has-reached-record-high/?noredirect=on

    https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/12/the-sex-recession/573949/

    Where do you think all the incels are coming from? Where do you think incel shooters like Elliot Roger come from?

    You've failed to understand the dynamics of sexual relationships between men and women on a large scale.

    Ideally, for one man, being able to fertilize as many women as possible with his seed is what is desirable on a primitive biological level as this is the most reliable way for a man to secure the continuation of his genetic legacy. A man can run into all sorts of problems with this, as until modern times and the availability of the appropriate technology, doubt always existed as to which man's seed that a given baby would be a product of.

    However, for a woman, when she is fertilized by a man, there is obviously no problem as to whether her genetic legacy has been continued onto a child she gives birth to. This obviously suggests different mating strategies between men and women. For women the issue involves getting access to the highest possible quality male seed while also making sure that a given man will commit by giving her his resources, security, attention and whatever so she can raise the offspring smoothly. However, to do this, women do not have to necessarily commit to one man to do this, instead they can cuckold a man they have found to deceive and take his resources under the illusion that the woman is raising his seed. In other cases, some men are so pathetic that they volunteer to give their resources and attention to single mothers who freely spend their time searching to be fertilized by the highest quality possible Alpha seed. Most people are not entirely conscious of this, but these are the basic natural instincts that drive their sexual behaviors.

    This is why a society cannot function when sexual access and reproduction are made upon the basis of female mating preferences. In order for a society to function, women must be made to settle for men that are roughly at their level of quality. That is, in terms of the typical rating of women from 1-10, men can also be rated the same, so whatever a woman's number, she must settle for a man with the same number. At least, this is normal, healthy and ensures societal functioning. Instead, what exists since the "sexual liberation" is that women are all allowed without any restraint to pursue a small amount of high quality/status men, "Chads", while deciding to ignore all the other men because they can and have the freedom to do so.

    As for what makes some men "Chads" or "Alpha" in the eyes of women while other men are either ignored or considered to be "Beta", is another matter. This dynamic and reality is best explained in Roger F Devlin's book, Sexual Utopia in Power. Unless anyone is interested in buying it (I believe the author has given his permission for the free download place?), here is a place where a free PDF download of it can be obtained:

    https://www.toqonline.com/archives/v6n2/DevlinTOQV6N2.pdf

    I've done my best to explain this in brief, but breaking the illusion that men get sexual access to women by being "nice", white knighting for women and coddling them with large amounts of their resources and attention is vital. It is vital because it helps men personally understand how best to engage in sexual mating or long term family formation with women but also it helps those who want to change society and increase birthrates. It is with good reason that I am dead serious about abolishing higher education for women and the importance of women needing to become the private property of men. When I came across this realization recently, my life has changed for the better.

    Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous, @AP, @Mikel

    [MORE]

    Oh, by the way, Saint Elliot did nothing wrong!

    • Replies: @Anonymoose
    @TheTotallyAnonymous

    https://66.media.tumblr.com/d22e9c02b4fcd598b3ef3ef4d865d6cd/tumblr_oq7c4xZBEv1tfvgbqo3_500.jpg

  252. [MORE]

    Excellent take down of Meghan McCain, Joy Behar and Whoopi Goldberg:

    Pamela Anderson is no dumb blonde.

  253. @Thorfinnsson
    @German_reader

    I think that scenario is rather unlikely--let's just say it's bad luck.

    PeterAUS can speak for himself, but I assume his point was that if his friend had been tougher there either would have been no assault or he wouldn't have come off so badly.

    As to what you should do in that situation, I would suggest before doing anything else that you take a photograph. If the person is menacing or has the possibility to be, perhaps just leave and come back. The hood of your car is already scratched after all and won't repair itself just because you tell the guy off or kick his ass (or get yourself beaten to a pulp).

    You're also not going to lose your bourgeois life over battery charges. Most bourgeois people overestimate how punitive the criminal justice system is, and they also overestimate how much other people care about you having a criminal record.

    I agree that his posturing is silly.

    Replies: @peterAUS, @reiner Tor

    I think his point was that someone sitting on the hood of your car is actually looking for a fight. When noticing it, you should immediately be aware that the guy is pretty likely looking for an excuse to attack you. It’s also possible he’s not alone. So he should’ve been prepared for the attack and for the other attacker, and either avoided the situation altogether (just wait for them to leave from a distance), or been ready for a fight against both.

    That much is part of the situational awareness. It still doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t avoid a fight with such a low class element, because you absolutely should. Taking a picture might be a good idea, for example I once pretty foolishly took a photo of a smoking black Muslim in France onboard a train in a Paris suburb with a vibrant population (we took the wrong train), and he noticed and started talking in French, but didn’t attack. (I cannot stress enough that I shouldn’t have done anything: it’s not like I prevented the smoking or anything.)

  254. @peterAUS
    @Thorfinnsson


    ....I assume his point was that if his friend had been tougher there either would have been no assault or he wouldn’t have come off so badly..
     
    Correct assumption.
    Not a friend, though; acquaintance.

    As for the rest of related blather here it's good to see most of the people in this pub having no clue about the ritual of violence.
    Last time they faced something like that was, like..never. But they read about it.

    Just funny.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    I guess you can now go report to your bosses that we didn’t take your bait and won’t commit acts of violence. As you have guessed correctly, we have never even thought of killing anything more dangerous than a hornet, and it’s unlikely to change. We’re not 20, after all.

    • Replies: @Brutis
    @reiner Tor

    Violence is my religion.

    , @peterAUS
    @reiner Tor

    Classic cuckservative. Soft, weak, moderately dumb, with zero practical social intelligence.
    Added to the list.

    Replies: @anonymous coward, @reiner Tor

  255. @Thulean Friend
    So I am quite amused by this thread. On the one hand we have fatalists like melanf and others who give their implicit acceptance by pretending nothing can be done. On the other hand, we have dumb ironybro posters like reiner Tor who has nothing to say. Meanwhile:

    https://i.imgur.com/nTe0Z6k.jpg

    The point I'm making is that people who care about the social norms in any given society are the ones who will shape it. Trannies are being pushed today by the same people who started a lot of the negative social trends decades earlier. Fatalism/passive acceptance or ironybro posting is not an answer to any of this.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Epigon, @reiner Tor, @Beckow

    The problem is that traditional family-centered societies tend to end in a cul-de-sac. More and more virtue leads to a natural counter-reaction. I don’t defend it and it is not fatalism, we just need to be aware that dynamic exists.

    I am not quite sure why it is, but it always seems to happen over time. It happens when prosperity rises (Sweden in the 70’s-90′, or Canada), but it also happens when societies are economically collapsing (Russia in the 90’s or Weimar Germany).

    I would like a society where families with children are heavily preferred, divorce is limited, and abnormal behaviors are pushed to the margins. But we had societies like that and they turned out to be unstable. One of the side effects of many traditional societies is men behaving badly. It has certain appeal to me, but let’s not fool ourselves, that is also very destructive.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Beckow


    I would like a society where families with children are heavily preferred, divorce is limited, and abnormal behaviors are pushed to the margins. But we had societies like that and they turned out to be unstable
     
    They were stable for over a thousand years. In terms of social norms and customs, "Christendom" probably stabilized around 700, and became unstable in the 18th century (on a societal level the disease started in France, then spread from there).

    Replies: @Beckow

  256. @reiner Tor
    @peterAUS

    I guess you can now go report to your bosses that we didn’t take your bait and won’t commit acts of violence. As you have guessed correctly, we have never even thought of killing anything more dangerous than a hornet, and it’s unlikely to change. We’re not 20, after all.

    Replies: @Brutis, @peterAUS

    Violence is my religion.

  257. @peterAUS
    @Brutis


    Your situation also sucks because no average looking or anyone period is going to do that.
     
    Hahahaha...."anyone period"? Do what? Smash you into the ground because he is simply looking for a fight? Hahaha........
    Warrior a?
    Oh my.

    You guys really have to go out more.

    Replies: @Brutis

    You’re a fucking christcuck don’t you dare talk about Warriorship LOL!

    • Replies: @AP
    @Brutis

    When Europeans were Christians they were the most formidable warriors in history, conquering almost the entire world. Does this hurt you?

    Replies: @Brutis

  258. @TheTotallyAnonymous
    @Mikel


    That is a harsh thing to tell a man, Rosie. Did you really mean what you said?

     

    Rosie is a typical woman that is incapable of proper and serious thought. She's also clearly showed herself to be quite a female svidomist (that term sounds cooler than Feminist imo).

    I any case, I really don’t know what some guys here are on about. It’s not that many women act slutty because we men “allow” them to. It’s that we gladly welcome those behaviors. And if they didn’t affect our daughters and wives, we would be even more enthusiastic about them. When in the history of humanity have men got as much sex as they desired?

     

    The part where some men have welcomed this, especially with the start of the Sexual Revolution in the USA from the 1960's and onward is true.

    However, you are wrong when you imply that men are getting lots of sex now. Young people, and especially men are now actually having less sex than ever. Just take a look at the statistics:

    https://beta.washingtonpost.com/business/2019/03/29/share-americans-not-having-sex-has-reached-record-high/?noredirect=on

    https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/12/the-sex-recession/573949/

    Where do you think all the incels are coming from? Where do you think incel shooters like Elliot Roger come from?

    You've failed to understand the dynamics of sexual relationships between men and women on a large scale.

    Ideally, for one man, being able to fertilize as many women as possible with his seed is what is desirable on a primitive biological level as this is the most reliable way for a man to secure the continuation of his genetic legacy. A man can run into all sorts of problems with this, as until modern times and the availability of the appropriate technology, doubt always existed as to which man's seed that a given baby would be a product of.

    However, for a woman, when she is fertilized by a man, there is obviously no problem as to whether her genetic legacy has been continued onto a child she gives birth to. This obviously suggests different mating strategies between men and women. For women the issue involves getting access to the highest possible quality male seed while also making sure that a given man will commit by giving her his resources, security, attention and whatever so she can raise the offspring smoothly. However, to do this, women do not have to necessarily commit to one man to do this, instead they can cuckold a man they have found to deceive and take his resources under the illusion that the woman is raising his seed. In other cases, some men are so pathetic that they volunteer to give their resources and attention to single mothers who freely spend their time searching to be fertilized by the highest quality possible Alpha seed. Most people are not entirely conscious of this, but these are the basic natural instincts that drive their sexual behaviors.

    This is why a society cannot function when sexual access and reproduction are made upon the basis of female mating preferences. In order for a society to function, women must be made to settle for men that are roughly at their level of quality. That is, in terms of the typical rating of women from 1-10, men can also be rated the same, so whatever a woman's number, she must settle for a man with the same number. At least, this is normal, healthy and ensures societal functioning. Instead, what exists since the "sexual liberation" is that women are all allowed without any restraint to pursue a small amount of high quality/status men, "Chads", while deciding to ignore all the other men because they can and have the freedom to do so.

    As for what makes some men "Chads" or "Alpha" in the eyes of women while other men are either ignored or considered to be "Beta", is another matter. This dynamic and reality is best explained in Roger F Devlin's book, Sexual Utopia in Power. Unless anyone is interested in buying it (I believe the author has given his permission for the free download place?), here is a place where a free PDF download of it can be obtained:

    https://www.toqonline.com/archives/v6n2/DevlinTOQV6N2.pdf

    I've done my best to explain this in brief, but breaking the illusion that men get sexual access to women by being "nice", white knighting for women and coddling them with large amounts of their resources and attention is vital. It is vital because it helps men personally understand how best to engage in sexual mating or long term family formation with women but also it helps those who want to change society and increase birthrates. It is with good reason that I am dead serious about abolishing higher education for women and the importance of women needing to become the private property of men. When I came across this realization recently, my life has changed for the better.

    Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous, @AP, @Mikel

    This is what happens when peasants are forced to become literate as they get uprooted. Minds get filled with nonsense.

    You needed to stay in your Balkan village where your family and priest would have helped you find a suitable mate and with her encouragement you would just do honest work and live a decent life instead of becoming some sort of bitter “incel” (?) causing trouble for yourself and hopefully not anyone else in whatever Western country was foolish enough to let you in.

    • Replies: @Brutis
    @AP

    You're a christcuck Khohol who's ready to stab his fellow Saka Slav in the back for some Anglo Shekels.

    You don't get to make fun of the brave Serbs while you sit in America funding Zog to make Bns impregnate other species.

    You literally have less money as a country than Pajeets now. Go hang out in a corner with Moldova & Afghanistan as the armpit & bumhole of Eurasia.

    Liberals have Darth Mol
    Christcucks have Simon Mol

    LOLOLOL

    https://twitter.com/moldbugman/status/1085552242512412672

    What shame & despicablility have you brought to our race??

    Do you ever think when you bow in front of the jew what he has ever brought to you??

    We were once rulers of this earth, and today men made of brittle mud with foreign ways make bids upon our women and motherland.

    SHAME ON YOU HOHOL

    Replies: @AP, @Daniel Chieh

    , @TheTotallyAnonymous
    @AP


    This is what happens when peasants are forced to become literate as they get uprooted. Minds get filled with nonsense.

    You needed to stay in your Balkan village where your family and priest would have helped you find a suitable mate and with her encouragement you would just do honest work and live a decent life instead of becoming some sort of bitter “incel” (?) causing trouble for yourself and hopefully not anyone else in whatever Western country was foolish enough to let you in.

     

    You took the incel and Saint Elliot part too seriously lol. Maybe I should've clarified that I was just joking with Rodger Eliot. Still, if you bothered to read the pdf I linked with Roger F Devlin, you would see that what I was writing about had serious value. In this way, you are only showing your seething contempt for me without bothering to seriously analyze the content of my words or the potential merits behind them.

    As for me being a poor and troublesome "Balkanoid" emigrant, I should clarify that the decision on emigration was not my choice since I was too young to decide about it at the time. Anyway, if my presence as a "Balkanoid" in whatever Western country bothers you so much, maybe I should start up a "Poor Balkanoid Fund" on Paypal or Patreon where you and Thorfinsson can donate money to have this "Balkanoid" leave the West for his place of origin, since my presence here is bothersome for you guys. After all, Thorfinsson is apparently some kind of factory owner, meaning that if anyone could contribute to "Balkanoid" repatriation, it would be him.

    Replies: @German_reader

  259. @Beckow
    @Thulean Friend

    The problem is that traditional family-centered societies tend to end in a cul-de-sac. More and more virtue leads to a natural counter-reaction. I don't defend it and it is not fatalism, we just need to be aware that dynamic exists.

    I am not quite sure why it is, but it always seems to happen over time. It happens when prosperity rises (Sweden in the 70's-90', or Canada), but it also happens when societies are economically collapsing (Russia in the 90's or Weimar Germany).

    I would like a society where families with children are heavily preferred, divorce is limited, and abnormal behaviors are pushed to the margins. But we had societies like that and they turned out to be unstable. One of the side effects of many traditional societies is men behaving badly. It has certain appeal to me, but let's not fool ourselves, that is also very destructive.

    Replies: @AP

    I would like a society where families with children are heavily preferred, divorce is limited, and abnormal behaviors are pushed to the margins. But we had societies like that and they turned out to be unstable

    They were stable for over a thousand years. In terms of social norms and customs, “Christendom” probably stabilized around 700, and became unstable in the 18th century (on a societal level the disease started in France, then spread from there).

    • Replies: @Beckow
    @AP

    I am a fan of middle ages, but in this case my timeframe was more recent. There seems to be an inevitable 'liberal' reaction after a few generations in most traditional societies. It is currently raging completely out of control in the West, but the initial impulse was not all bad. Whatever it is, we need to accommodate it. (I am on the record as being opposed to chastity belts.)

  260. @AP
    @TheTotallyAnonymous

    This is what happens when peasants are forced to become literate as they get uprooted. Minds get filled with nonsense.

    You needed to stay in your Balkan village where your family and priest would have helped you find a suitable mate and with her encouragement you would just do honest work and live a decent life instead of becoming some sort of bitter "incel" (?) causing trouble for yourself and hopefully not anyone else in whatever Western country was foolish enough to let you in.

    Replies: @Brutis, @TheTotallyAnonymous

    You’re a christcuck Khohol who’s ready to stab his fellow Saka Slav in the back for some Anglo Shekels.

    You don’t get to make fun of the brave Serbs while you sit in America funding Zog to make Bns impregnate other species.

    You literally have less money as a country than Pajeets now. Go hang out in a corner with Moldova & Afghanistan as the armpit & bumhole of Eurasia.

    Liberals have Darth Mol
    Christcucks have Simon Mol

    LOLOLOL

    https://twitter.com/moldbugman/status/1085552242512412672

    What shame & despicablility have you brought to our race??

    Do you ever think when you bow in front of the jew what he has ever brought to you??

    We were once rulers of this earth, and today men made of brittle mud with foreign ways make bids upon our women and motherland.

    SHAME ON YOU HOHOL

    • Replies: @AP
    @Brutis

    Serbs aren't Slavs, but Slavic-speaking Balkan people, like Albanians. I felt sorry for them when Kosovo was stolen from them but historically they have caused a lot of evil to Europeans.

    Are you from India? That would be very funny but not surprising.

    Ukraine competes with Belarus as being the whitest country in the world. Is that why you hate it?

    Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous, @Brutis, @melanf, @Denis

    , @Daniel Chieh
    @Brutis

    Upvoted for Powerful Truths.

  261. @Brutis
    @AP

    You're a christcuck Khohol who's ready to stab his fellow Saka Slav in the back for some Anglo Shekels.

    You don't get to make fun of the brave Serbs while you sit in America funding Zog to make Bns impregnate other species.

    You literally have less money as a country than Pajeets now. Go hang out in a corner with Moldova & Afghanistan as the armpit & bumhole of Eurasia.

    Liberals have Darth Mol
    Christcucks have Simon Mol

    LOLOLOL

    https://twitter.com/moldbugman/status/1085552242512412672

    What shame & despicablility have you brought to our race??

    Do you ever think when you bow in front of the jew what he has ever brought to you??

    We were once rulers of this earth, and today men made of brittle mud with foreign ways make bids upon our women and motherland.

    SHAME ON YOU HOHOL

    Replies: @AP, @Daniel Chieh

    Serbs aren’t Slavs, but Slavic-speaking Balkan people, like Albanians. I felt sorry for them when Kosovo was stolen from them but historically they have caused a lot of evil to Europeans.

    Are you from India? That would be very funny but not surprising.

    Ukraine competes with Belarus as being the whitest country in the world. Is that why you hate it?

    • Disagree: Mikhail
    • Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous
    @AP


    Serbs aren’t Slavs, but Slavic-speaking Balkan people, like Albanians.
     
    Albanians don't speak any form of Slavic language and qualify as a significantly different form of "Balkanoid" compared to Serbs. The proper name of Albanians is Shiptars, or Shqiptars, by the way.

    I felt sorry for them when Kosovo was stolen from them
     
    Cool, thanks.

    but historically they have caused a lot of evil to Europeans.

     

    Would you care to explain how? That is, in any form beyond your WW1 historical revisionism.

    Replies: @AP

    , @Brutis
    @AP

    Nigga, what hurts me is you haven't made Slaves of everyone past Berlin yet.

    Why the fuck did you stop?

    What hurts me is that a single Turk takes breath on this Earth.

    Men looking Pasty is feminine do you think I care that you can make piss water out of Potatoes or let an Anglo fuck your wife for E-Fame Khohol?

    Replies: @AP

    , @melanf
    @AP


    Serbs aren’t Slavs,
     
    https://i.playground.ru/i/pix/372869/image.jpg

    Replies: @Anonymoose

    , @Denis
    @AP


    Ukraine competes with Belarus as being the whitest country in the world.
     
    Not sure about that, but it definitely competes with Israel for having the most jewish politicians.
  262. @Brutis
    @peterAUS

    You're a fucking christcuck don't you dare talk about Warriorship LOL!

    Replies: @AP

    When Europeans were Christians they were the most formidable warriors in history, conquering almost the entire world. Does this hurt you?

    • Replies: @Brutis
    @AP

    Conquering a bunch of stone age tribes and then helping save the Turks from destruction.

    Does the Anglo cock taste good Khohol?

  263. @AP
    @TheTotallyAnonymous

    This is what happens when peasants are forced to become literate as they get uprooted. Minds get filled with nonsense.

    You needed to stay in your Balkan village where your family and priest would have helped you find a suitable mate and with her encouragement you would just do honest work and live a decent life instead of becoming some sort of bitter "incel" (?) causing trouble for yourself and hopefully not anyone else in whatever Western country was foolish enough to let you in.

    Replies: @Brutis, @TheTotallyAnonymous

    This is what happens when peasants are forced to become literate as they get uprooted. Minds get filled with nonsense.

    You needed to stay in your Balkan village where your family and priest would have helped you find a suitable mate and with her encouragement you would just do honest work and live a decent life instead of becoming some sort of bitter “incel” (?) causing trouble for yourself and hopefully not anyone else in whatever Western country was foolish enough to let you in.

    You took the incel and Saint Elliot part too seriously lol. Maybe I should’ve clarified that I was just joking with Rodger Eliot. Still, if you bothered to read the pdf I linked with Roger F Devlin, you would see that what I was writing about had serious value. In this way, you are only showing your seething contempt for me without bothering to seriously analyze the content of my words or the potential merits behind them.

    As for me being a poor and troublesome “Balkanoid” emigrant, I should clarify that the decision on emigration was not my choice since I was too young to decide about it at the time. Anyway, if my presence as a “Balkanoid” in whatever Western country bothers you so much, maybe I should start up a “Poor Balkanoid Fund” on Paypal or Patreon where you and Thorfinsson can donate money to have this “Balkanoid” leave the West for his place of origin, since my presence here is bothersome for you guys. After all, Thorfinsson is apparently some kind of factory owner, meaning that if anyone could contribute to “Balkanoid” repatriation, it would be him.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @TheTotallyAnonymous


    Maybe I should’ve clarified that I was just joking with Rodger Eliot.
     
    It's not that funny since he really did kill several people (some of them in an exceedingly brutal and personal manner, he bludgeoned his Chinese roommates to death with a hammer).
    And when one watches his videos (which would be unintentionally hilarious with their excessive self-pity, if one didn't know the context), it's pretty clear that he had a major personality disorder of the narcissist kind. I don't think the guy was in any sense a victim of society or of women, he just wasn't quite right in the head. Maybe there are factors in modern society like general atomization or increasing use of antidepressants which increase the likelihood of something like this. But blaming it on the sexual behaviour of women is rather misguided imo, as is the incel movement in general.

    Replies: @Kent Nationalist

  264. @AP
    @Brutis

    Serbs aren't Slavs, but Slavic-speaking Balkan people, like Albanians. I felt sorry for them when Kosovo was stolen from them but historically they have caused a lot of evil to Europeans.

    Are you from India? That would be very funny but not surprising.

    Ukraine competes with Belarus as being the whitest country in the world. Is that why you hate it?

    Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous, @Brutis, @melanf, @Denis

    Serbs aren’t Slavs, but Slavic-speaking Balkan people, like Albanians.

    Albanians don’t speak any form of Slavic language and qualify as a significantly different form of “Balkanoid” compared to Serbs. The proper name of Albanians is Shiptars, or Shqiptars, by the way.

    I felt sorry for them when Kosovo was stolen from them

    Cool, thanks.

    but historically they have caused a lot of evil to Europeans.

    Would you care to explain how? That is, in any form beyond your WW1 historical revisionism.

    • Replies: @AP
    @TheTotallyAnonymous


    Serbs aren’t Slavs, but Slavic-speaking Balkan people, like Albanians.

    Albanians don’t speak any form of Slavic language and qualify as a significantly different form of “Balkanoid” compared to Serbs.
     

    Okay, the lack of clarity was my fault.

    Serbs are Balkan people, like Albanians, but unlike Albanians they have been "Slavicized" linguistically. Culturally, only to an extent.

    To be even more precise: Serbs are about 25% Slavic by descent, and speak a Slavic language and share religion with Eastern Slavs (but not Western Slavs). Serb relationship to Slavs is analogous to African-American relationship with Europeans. African-Americans are about 20% European by descent, speak a European language and have a European religion. So if Albanians are Congolese or Nigerians, Serbs are African-Americans.

    When America resettled African-Americans in Africa they took over the pure Africans, treated them like slaves, and created a quasi-American state, Liberia (the African-Americans were more civilized after all). In comparison to Albania, Serbia is kind of like a "Slavic" Liberia in the Balkans.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americo-Liberians

    Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous

  265. @Brutis
    @AP

    You're a christcuck Khohol who's ready to stab his fellow Saka Slav in the back for some Anglo Shekels.

    You don't get to make fun of the brave Serbs while you sit in America funding Zog to make Bns impregnate other species.

    You literally have less money as a country than Pajeets now. Go hang out in a corner with Moldova & Afghanistan as the armpit & bumhole of Eurasia.

    Liberals have Darth Mol
    Christcucks have Simon Mol

    LOLOLOL

    https://twitter.com/moldbugman/status/1085552242512412672

    What shame & despicablility have you brought to our race??

    Do you ever think when you bow in front of the jew what he has ever brought to you??

    We were once rulers of this earth, and today men made of brittle mud with foreign ways make bids upon our women and motherland.

    SHAME ON YOU HOHOL

    Replies: @AP, @Daniel Chieh

    Upvoted for Powerful Truths.

  266. @TheTotallyAnonymous
    @AP


    Serbs aren’t Slavs, but Slavic-speaking Balkan people, like Albanians.
     
    Albanians don't speak any form of Slavic language and qualify as a significantly different form of "Balkanoid" compared to Serbs. The proper name of Albanians is Shiptars, or Shqiptars, by the way.

    I felt sorry for them when Kosovo was stolen from them
     
    Cool, thanks.

    but historically they have caused a lot of evil to Europeans.

     

    Would you care to explain how? That is, in any form beyond your WW1 historical revisionism.

    Replies: @AP

    Serbs aren’t Slavs, but Slavic-speaking Balkan people, like Albanians.

    Albanians don’t speak any form of Slavic language and qualify as a significantly different form of “Balkanoid” compared to Serbs.

    Okay, the lack of clarity was my fault.

    Serbs are Balkan people, like Albanians, but unlike Albanians they have been “Slavicized” linguistically. Culturally, only to an extent.

    To be even more precise: Serbs are about 25% Slavic by descent, and speak a Slavic language and share religion with Eastern Slavs (but not Western Slavs). Serb relationship to Slavs is analogous to African-American relationship with Europeans. African-Americans are about 20% European by descent, speak a European language and have a European religion. So if Albanians are Congolese or Nigerians, Serbs are African-Americans.

    When America resettled African-Americans in Africa they took over the pure Africans, treated them like slaves, and created a quasi-American state, Liberia (the African-Americans were more civilized after all). In comparison to Albania, Serbia is kind of like a “Slavic” Liberia in the Balkans.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americo-Liberians

    • Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous
    @AP


    Okay, the lack of clarity was my fault.

     

    All good.

    When America resettled African-Americans in Africa they took over the pure Africans, treated them like slaves, and created a quasi-American state, Liberia (the African-Americans were more civilized after all). In comparison to Albania, Serbia is kind of like a “Slavic” Liberia in the Balkans.

     

    Unfortunately for you, there are a few basic facts that completely shatter this falsehood you have imagined. That is, Medieval Serbia under the Nemanjic Dynasty. Especially in the first half of the 14th century. The Serbian Nemanjic Dynasty were the first elites on the European content to eat with forks, knives and spoons compared to the Western Euros you worship. Early 14th century Serbia also had it's capital cities located in Raska and Novo Brdo in Kosovo that were extremely wealthy in minerals. The population of Raska and Novo Brdo (this one is unfortunately infested with Shiptars today since it is on Kosovo), though only into a few tens of thousands of people, was just as large, if not even more so, than their medieval equivalents in London and Paris. Serbia also had tracts of fertile agricultural land, with wine being one of the most notable exports of Medieval Serbia. Medieval Serbia also had one of the strongest armies in Europe with well renowned knights and heavy cavalry as it managed to successfully defeat the large powers of its time in wars and battles, Hungary, Byzantium, Venice and Bulgaria (Even the feared Ottomans in a few engagements by the end of the 14th century). Really, in this time period, Serbia was at a level as comparable if not even superior to the European states of its time. Bulgaria was also vassalized to Serbia for a short time period in the early 14th century as well. Tsar Stefan Dusan made Serbia extend from modern and central Serbia through all of modern Montenegro, Albania, Macedonia (even including the Greek part) up to around Thessaly and Epirus.

    The problem with Medieval Serbia was that after the death of Tsar Stefan Dusan (he was poisoned by a Greek/Byzantine doctor) in 1355, Serbia fell apart into civil war in a similar manner to the Frankish Kingdom in the 9th century. The problem with this is that the timing was horrible as it happened exactly as the Turks began crossing into the Balkans through the rump Byzantine Empire. Two elite Serbian noble brothers Vukasin and Ugljesa Mrnjavcevic along with many others marched out to meet the Turks in front of modern day Edirne at the Battle of Maritsa in 1371. Since they outnumbered the Turks, the Turkish Pasha falsely promised to surrender the keys to the city to them, but at night, he launched a surprise attack to slaughter the Serbian army that was sleeping. Apparently they felt so confident in themselves that they did not even bother to put up proper patrols and night shifts to guard the camp which is why they got so easily slaughtered and massacred by the Turks, since after all, the Turks are obviously not known for their trustworthiness. Anyway, this is at least how the official historiography of that battle goes since from that moment, Serbia became a secondary state and any capacity it had to grow into a great and powerful European country, or world power, died there and then basically for eternity (Maybe with Stefan Dusan's death?). The Turks have permanently ruined the whole Balkans since the late 14th century (the fate of the Balkans then depended mostly on Serbia) until 1913 with their many centuries of Islamic barbarism, arbitrary violence and overall backwardness. The problem with not just Serbia, but countries in the Balkans and East Europe in general, is that even small errors, mistakes, setbacks or simply pure bad luck are usually permanent death blows which completely ruin these countries' and peoples' capacity to be on the world stage of great powers (this possibility died centuries ago) or even secondary powers, which is the highest they can realistically hope to achieve.

    By the way, in modern Serbia before WW1, Serbia was actually more economically prosperous than Switzerland as it was a well known phenomenon that Swiss guest workers, notably maids, would come to work in Serbia for money from wealthy families (so common that it features in a play of Branislav Nusic). Unfortunately, today it is the other way around.

    As for the Serb-Albanian relationship, in a 15th century Ottoman census it clearly showed that Serbs were the overwhelming majority population of Kosovo with there being a tiny Shiptar population. In fact, current "Albanian" cities such as Ishkodra (more properly called Skadar) were completely Serbian in this time period. As for Shiptars in general, the overwhelming amount of historical evidence points to the fakeness of their country, national identity and artificial non-native presence in the Balkans. The evidence that Shiptars migrated to the Balkans in the mid-Feudal ages is overwhelming (that is, after the supposed Slav migration of the 7th century, if you buy the Berlin-Vienna thesis for Serbs). Therefore, with the exception of Northern Epirus, all of modern day Albania is rightfully Serbian land inhabited by majority Muslim alien barbarians, not just Kosovo and parts of Monkeydonia.

    Replies: @Korenchkin, @German_reader, @Mr. Hack, @Epigon, @Denis

  267. @AP
    @Brutis

    When Europeans were Christians they were the most formidable warriors in history, conquering almost the entire world. Does this hurt you?

    Replies: @Brutis

    Conquering a bunch of stone age tribes and then helping save the Turks from destruction.

    Does the Anglo cock taste good Khohol?

  268. @AP
    @Brutis

    Serbs aren't Slavs, but Slavic-speaking Balkan people, like Albanians. I felt sorry for them when Kosovo was stolen from them but historically they have caused a lot of evil to Europeans.

    Are you from India? That would be very funny but not surprising.

    Ukraine competes with Belarus as being the whitest country in the world. Is that why you hate it?

    Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous, @Brutis, @melanf, @Denis

    Nigga, what hurts me is you haven’t made Slaves of everyone past Berlin yet.

    Why the fuck did you stop?

    What hurts me is that a single Turk takes breath on this Earth.

    Men looking Pasty is feminine do you think I care that you can make piss water out of Potatoes or let an Anglo fuck your wife for E-Fame Khohol?

    • Replies: @AP
    @Brutis

    You have a strange preoccupation with cocks and Anglos. As an English-speaking Indian what does this say about your personal experiences?

    Replies: @Brutis

  269. German_reader says:
    @TheTotallyAnonymous
    @AP


    This is what happens when peasants are forced to become literate as they get uprooted. Minds get filled with nonsense.

    You needed to stay in your Balkan village where your family and priest would have helped you find a suitable mate and with her encouragement you would just do honest work and live a decent life instead of becoming some sort of bitter “incel” (?) causing trouble for yourself and hopefully not anyone else in whatever Western country was foolish enough to let you in.

     

    You took the incel and Saint Elliot part too seriously lol. Maybe I should've clarified that I was just joking with Rodger Eliot. Still, if you bothered to read the pdf I linked with Roger F Devlin, you would see that what I was writing about had serious value. In this way, you are only showing your seething contempt for me without bothering to seriously analyze the content of my words or the potential merits behind them.

    As for me being a poor and troublesome "Balkanoid" emigrant, I should clarify that the decision on emigration was not my choice since I was too young to decide about it at the time. Anyway, if my presence as a "Balkanoid" in whatever Western country bothers you so much, maybe I should start up a "Poor Balkanoid Fund" on Paypal or Patreon where you and Thorfinsson can donate money to have this "Balkanoid" leave the West for his place of origin, since my presence here is bothersome for you guys. After all, Thorfinsson is apparently some kind of factory owner, meaning that if anyone could contribute to "Balkanoid" repatriation, it would be him.

    Replies: @German_reader

    Maybe I should’ve clarified that I was just joking with Rodger Eliot.

    It’s not that funny since he really did kill several people (some of them in an exceedingly brutal and personal manner, he bludgeoned his Chinese roommates to death with a hammer).
    And when one watches his videos (which would be unintentionally hilarious with their excessive self-pity, if one didn’t know the context), it’s pretty clear that he had a major personality disorder of the narcissist kind. I don’t think the guy was in any sense a victim of society or of women, he just wasn’t quite right in the head. Maybe there are factors in modern society like general atomization or increasing use of antidepressants which increase the likelihood of something like this. But blaming it on the sexual behaviour of women is rather misguided imo, as is the incel movement in general.

    • Agree: reiner Tor
    • Replies: @Kent Nationalist
    @German_reader

    Hopefully he has at least served to dissuade some European men having children with Chinese women

  270. @AP
    @TheTotallyAnonymous


    Serbs aren’t Slavs, but Slavic-speaking Balkan people, like Albanians.

    Albanians don’t speak any form of Slavic language and qualify as a significantly different form of “Balkanoid” compared to Serbs.
     

    Okay, the lack of clarity was my fault.

    Serbs are Balkan people, like Albanians, but unlike Albanians they have been "Slavicized" linguistically. Culturally, only to an extent.

    To be even more precise: Serbs are about 25% Slavic by descent, and speak a Slavic language and share religion with Eastern Slavs (but not Western Slavs). Serb relationship to Slavs is analogous to African-American relationship with Europeans. African-Americans are about 20% European by descent, speak a European language and have a European religion. So if Albanians are Congolese or Nigerians, Serbs are African-Americans.

    When America resettled African-Americans in Africa they took over the pure Africans, treated them like slaves, and created a quasi-American state, Liberia (the African-Americans were more civilized after all). In comparison to Albania, Serbia is kind of like a "Slavic" Liberia in the Balkans.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americo-Liberians

    Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous

    Okay, the lack of clarity was my fault.

    All good.

    When America resettled African-Americans in Africa they took over the pure Africans, treated them like slaves, and created a quasi-American state, Liberia (the African-Americans were more civilized after all). In comparison to Albania, Serbia is kind of like a “Slavic” Liberia in the Balkans.

    Unfortunately for you, there are a few basic facts that completely shatter this falsehood you have imagined. That is, Medieval Serbia under the Nemanjic Dynasty. Especially in the first half of the 14th century. The Serbian Nemanjic Dynasty were the first elites on the European content to eat with forks, knives and spoons compared to the Western Euros you worship. Early 14th century Serbia also had it’s capital cities located in Raska and Novo Brdo in Kosovo that were extremely wealthy in minerals. The population of Raska and Novo Brdo (this one is unfortunately infested with Shiptars today since it is on Kosovo), though only into a few tens of thousands of people, was just as large, if not even more so, than their medieval equivalents in London and Paris. Serbia also had tracts of fertile agricultural land, with wine being one of the most notable exports of Medieval Serbia. Medieval Serbia also had one of the strongest armies in Europe with well renowned knights and heavy cavalry as it managed to successfully defeat the large powers of its time in wars and battles, Hungary, Byzantium, Venice and Bulgaria (Even the feared Ottomans in a few engagements by the end of the 14th century). Really, in this time period, Serbia was at a level as comparable if not even superior to the European states of its time. Bulgaria was also vassalized to Serbia for a short time period in the early 14th century as well. Tsar Stefan Dusan made Serbia extend from modern and central Serbia through all of modern Montenegro, Albania, Macedonia (even including the Greek part) up to around Thessaly and Epirus.

    The problem with Medieval Serbia was that after the death of Tsar Stefan Dusan (he was poisoned by a Greek/Byzantine doctor) in 1355, Serbia fell apart into civil war in a similar manner to the Frankish Kingdom in the 9th century. The problem with this is that the timing was horrible as it happened exactly as the Turks began crossing into the Balkans through the rump Byzantine Empire. Two elite Serbian noble brothers Vukasin and Ugljesa Mrnjavcevic along with many others marched out to meet the Turks in front of modern day Edirne at the Battle of Maritsa in 1371. Since they outnumbered the Turks, the Turkish Pasha falsely promised to surrender the keys to the city to them, but at night, he launched a surprise attack to slaughter the Serbian army that was sleeping. Apparently they felt so confident in themselves that they did not even bother to put up proper patrols and night shifts to guard the camp which is why they got so easily slaughtered and massacred by the Turks, since after all, the Turks are obviously not known for their trustworthiness. Anyway, this is at least how the official historiography of that battle goes since from that moment, Serbia became a secondary state and any capacity it had to grow into a great and powerful European country, or world power, died there and then basically for eternity (Maybe with Stefan Dusan’s death?). The Turks have permanently ruined the whole Balkans since the late 14th century (the fate of the Balkans then depended mostly on Serbia) until 1913 with their many centuries of Islamic barbarism, arbitrary violence and overall backwardness. The problem with not just Serbia, but countries in the Balkans and East Europe in general, is that even small errors, mistakes, setbacks or simply pure bad luck are usually permanent death blows which completely ruin these countries’ and peoples’ capacity to be on the world stage of great powers (this possibility died centuries ago) or even secondary powers, which is the highest they can realistically hope to achieve.

    By the way, in modern Serbia before WW1, Serbia was actually more economically prosperous than Switzerland as it was a well known phenomenon that Swiss guest workers, notably maids, would come to work in Serbia for money from wealthy families (so common that it features in a play of Branislav Nusic). Unfortunately, today it is the other way around.

    As for the Serb-Albanian relationship, in a 15th century Ottoman census it clearly showed that Serbs were the overwhelming majority population of Kosovo with there being a tiny Shiptar population. In fact, current “Albanian” cities such as Ishkodra (more properly called Skadar) were completely Serbian in this time period. As for Shiptars in general, the overwhelming amount of historical evidence points to the fakeness of their country, national identity and artificial non-native presence in the Balkans. The evidence that Shiptars migrated to the Balkans in the mid-Feudal ages is overwhelming (that is, after the supposed Slav migration of the 7th century, if you buy the Berlin-Vienna thesis for Serbs). Therefore, with the exception of Northern Epirus, all of modern day Albania is rightfully Serbian land inhabited by majority Muslim alien barbarians, not just Kosovo and parts of Monkeydonia.

    • Replies: @Korenchkin
    @TheTotallyAnonymous

    Did you seriously write a wall of text to that shitty bait?
    Hohol hatred of Russia always proxies into hatred of Serbia, hell you can find Ukranians who defend the Ottoman Empire (on Reddit ofcourse) and claim that the Russian Tsarist Tyranny destroyed a tolerant and multi-ethnic Muslim Empire

    Point is, this stuff doesn't come from some logical conclusion, you're wasting your time "debunking it"
    Just LOL it and move on

    Replies: @AnonFromTN, @AnonFromTN

    , @German_reader
    @TheTotallyAnonymous


    points to the fakeness of their country, national identity and artificial non-native presence in the Balkans.
     
    lol, where did Albanians originate then in your version of history?

    Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous

    , @Mr. Hack
    @TheTotallyAnonymous

    I'm one of those "khokhols" that you seem to loathe, however, I find your rendition of Serbian history quite interesting and look forward to AP's rebuttal. Any one or two Serbian history books that you could recommend in the English language would be appreciated.

    Replies: @AP

    , @Epigon
    @TheTotallyAnonymous

    Several issues. First of all, take the fork, prosperous pre-WW1 Kingdom of Serbia, Maritsa narrative nonsense and throw it in the garbage. I hate kool-aid history with a passion because very important facts and primary sources get overlooked while the focus shifts to fiction and fabrications.

    Medieval Serbia was sparsely populated and relied on Saxon miners, Ragusan trade, Germanic knights (an entire guard of them - Allemanic Guard), mercenaries from as far as Catalonia to succesfuly rival Bulgaria, Hungary, Byzantines and Venice. In fact, some areas were so sparsely populated that they were leased out to Ragusan republic for a yearly tribute - the Orthodox Serbs abandoned the lands under pressure from Italian/Papal missionaries and monks - those lands are present-day Croatia - Ston, Pelješac, Konavle, Korčula, Mljet.
    The Ottoman conquest of present-day Republic of Srpska, North Macedonia, Kosovo, and Greek Macedonia gave Ottomans several biggest gold and in particular silver mines, for example.
    Even in the crucial battle of Velbazhd, there were many foreign mercenaries (Catalonian band included) on Serbian side in an attempt to bolster inferior Serb numbers compared to Bulgarian ones. Almost half of Bulgarian army didn’t even engage in that battle because they were on their way, while the part which was defeated was roughly a match for victorious Serb one.

    Don’t engage in mythology, if you are truly interested in history, focus solely on preserved primary evidence, followed by secondary, contemporary sources. Modern historiography of medieval period consists of a ridiculous amount of wishful thinking and creative writing.

    The fateful Kosovo battle of 1389 saw less than 20 000 combatants on Serb side. The demographic losses sustained during it meant that Serbian vassal contingents which fought on Ottoman side at Rovine in 1395, Nicopolis 1396 and Angora in 1402 were relatively small and no Serbian resistance was even possible in the 1389 attle aftermath - there were not enough trained military age men left - and hence vassalhood was offered despite Ottomans not conquering the land.

    Don’t engage in mythology, if you are truly interested in history, focus solely on preserved primary evidence, followed by secondary, contemporary sources. Modern historiography of medieval period consists of a ridiculous amount of wishful thinking and creative writing.

    Arnaut tribes were part of Emperor/Tzar Dušan’s armies that conquered Epirus and came as far as Aetolia. In the aftermath of his death, (part) Serb aristocrats ruled over the small successor statelets in Aetolia, Epirus, Thessaly.

    Albania was first used to describe the present-day Albania in the beginning of 20th century. Dyrrachion, Epirus (despotate) etc. were historical terms
    What was called Albanian was Venetian province of Albania Veneta, corresponding roughly to medieval Zeta, which naturally included Shkodra/Skadar as its capital. Hoxha regime bulldozed all remains they could, as well as imposing mandatory names and surnames, banning all minorities from declaring themselves as anything but Albanians, banning any newspaper, jamming radio broadcasts from Yugoslavia etc.
    I believe only 2% of Albanians were literate at the end of 19th century. Austro-Hungary invested heavily into the creation of Albania from 1907 to 1913, culminating with Great Powers creating it at London Conference and selecting an Ottoman Pasha to rule over it.

    PS: Skenderbeg’s brother and father are buried at a Serb monastery Hilandar, dying as Serb Orthodox monks, his father was of distant Serb descent, while his mather was a 1/1 Serb - Voisava. His sibling’s names are indicative as well. There are preserved letters written by him and his father in Serbian Cyrillic.

    Replies: @peterAUS, @TheTotallyAnonymous

    , @Denis
    @TheTotallyAnonymous

    You are really wasting your breath.

  271. @TheTotallyAnonymous
    @AP


    Okay, the lack of clarity was my fault.

     

    All good.

    When America resettled African-Americans in Africa they took over the pure Africans, treated them like slaves, and created a quasi-American state, Liberia (the African-Americans were more civilized after all). In comparison to Albania, Serbia is kind of like a “Slavic” Liberia in the Balkans.

     

    Unfortunately for you, there are a few basic facts that completely shatter this falsehood you have imagined. That is, Medieval Serbia under the Nemanjic Dynasty. Especially in the first half of the 14th century. The Serbian Nemanjic Dynasty were the first elites on the European content to eat with forks, knives and spoons compared to the Western Euros you worship. Early 14th century Serbia also had it's capital cities located in Raska and Novo Brdo in Kosovo that were extremely wealthy in minerals. The population of Raska and Novo Brdo (this one is unfortunately infested with Shiptars today since it is on Kosovo), though only into a few tens of thousands of people, was just as large, if not even more so, than their medieval equivalents in London and Paris. Serbia also had tracts of fertile agricultural land, with wine being one of the most notable exports of Medieval Serbia. Medieval Serbia also had one of the strongest armies in Europe with well renowned knights and heavy cavalry as it managed to successfully defeat the large powers of its time in wars and battles, Hungary, Byzantium, Venice and Bulgaria (Even the feared Ottomans in a few engagements by the end of the 14th century). Really, in this time period, Serbia was at a level as comparable if not even superior to the European states of its time. Bulgaria was also vassalized to Serbia for a short time period in the early 14th century as well. Tsar Stefan Dusan made Serbia extend from modern and central Serbia through all of modern Montenegro, Albania, Macedonia (even including the Greek part) up to around Thessaly and Epirus.

    The problem with Medieval Serbia was that after the death of Tsar Stefan Dusan (he was poisoned by a Greek/Byzantine doctor) in 1355, Serbia fell apart into civil war in a similar manner to the Frankish Kingdom in the 9th century. The problem with this is that the timing was horrible as it happened exactly as the Turks began crossing into the Balkans through the rump Byzantine Empire. Two elite Serbian noble brothers Vukasin and Ugljesa Mrnjavcevic along with many others marched out to meet the Turks in front of modern day Edirne at the Battle of Maritsa in 1371. Since they outnumbered the Turks, the Turkish Pasha falsely promised to surrender the keys to the city to them, but at night, he launched a surprise attack to slaughter the Serbian army that was sleeping. Apparently they felt so confident in themselves that they did not even bother to put up proper patrols and night shifts to guard the camp which is why they got so easily slaughtered and massacred by the Turks, since after all, the Turks are obviously not known for their trustworthiness. Anyway, this is at least how the official historiography of that battle goes since from that moment, Serbia became a secondary state and any capacity it had to grow into a great and powerful European country, or world power, died there and then basically for eternity (Maybe with Stefan Dusan's death?). The Turks have permanently ruined the whole Balkans since the late 14th century (the fate of the Balkans then depended mostly on Serbia) until 1913 with their many centuries of Islamic barbarism, arbitrary violence and overall backwardness. The problem with not just Serbia, but countries in the Balkans and East Europe in general, is that even small errors, mistakes, setbacks or simply pure bad luck are usually permanent death blows which completely ruin these countries' and peoples' capacity to be on the world stage of great powers (this possibility died centuries ago) or even secondary powers, which is the highest they can realistically hope to achieve.

    By the way, in modern Serbia before WW1, Serbia was actually more economically prosperous than Switzerland as it was a well known phenomenon that Swiss guest workers, notably maids, would come to work in Serbia for money from wealthy families (so common that it features in a play of Branislav Nusic). Unfortunately, today it is the other way around.

    As for the Serb-Albanian relationship, in a 15th century Ottoman census it clearly showed that Serbs were the overwhelming majority population of Kosovo with there being a tiny Shiptar population. In fact, current "Albanian" cities such as Ishkodra (more properly called Skadar) were completely Serbian in this time period. As for Shiptars in general, the overwhelming amount of historical evidence points to the fakeness of their country, national identity and artificial non-native presence in the Balkans. The evidence that Shiptars migrated to the Balkans in the mid-Feudal ages is overwhelming (that is, after the supposed Slav migration of the 7th century, if you buy the Berlin-Vienna thesis for Serbs). Therefore, with the exception of Northern Epirus, all of modern day Albania is rightfully Serbian land inhabited by majority Muslim alien barbarians, not just Kosovo and parts of Monkeydonia.

    Replies: @Korenchkin, @German_reader, @Mr. Hack, @Epigon, @Denis

    Did you seriously write a wall of text to that shitty bait?
    Hohol hatred of Russia always proxies into hatred of Serbia, hell you can find Ukranians who defend the Ottoman Empire (on Reddit ofcourse) and claim that the Russian Tsarist Tyranny destroyed a tolerant and multi-ethnic Muslim Empire

    Point is, this stuff doesn’t come from some logical conclusion, you’re wasting your time “debunking it”
    Just LOL it and move on

    • Agree: TheTotallyAnonymous
    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    @Korenchkin

    You don’t write for the person you respond to (otherwise responding to ~1/3 of commenters here would be useless, as they are either paid trolls or paid or unpaid morons), you write for honest open-minded readers who might not be aware of the info you are providing. At some point Ron Unz wrote to me that according to his stats only a small percentage of readers actually comment. So, you write for that “silent majority” more than for commenters.

    , @AnonFromTN
    @Korenchkin

    You are making a pretty common mistake: equating Ukrainians with Ukies. The difference is about the same as between Germans and Nazis. Ukies represent maybe 5% of Ukrainian population. The fraction of Ukies among Ukrainian expats in the US and Canada is much greater, because most of those people are descendants of Hitler lackeys who ran away from the Red Army to avoid being hanged as Nazi collaborators. Ukrainians and Germans are humans you can work and argue with. In contrast, Ukies and Nazis are vermin. The only way humans should deal with them is like with cockroaches: either you exterminate them, or you have a recurring problem.

    Replies: @AP, @Gerard1234

  272. @TheTotallyAnonymous
    @AP


    Okay, the lack of clarity was my fault.

     

    All good.

    When America resettled African-Americans in Africa they took over the pure Africans, treated them like slaves, and created a quasi-American state, Liberia (the African-Americans were more civilized after all). In comparison to Albania, Serbia is kind of like a “Slavic” Liberia in the Balkans.

     

    Unfortunately for you, there are a few basic facts that completely shatter this falsehood you have imagined. That is, Medieval Serbia under the Nemanjic Dynasty. Especially in the first half of the 14th century. The Serbian Nemanjic Dynasty were the first elites on the European content to eat with forks, knives and spoons compared to the Western Euros you worship. Early 14th century Serbia also had it's capital cities located in Raska and Novo Brdo in Kosovo that were extremely wealthy in minerals. The population of Raska and Novo Brdo (this one is unfortunately infested with Shiptars today since it is on Kosovo), though only into a few tens of thousands of people, was just as large, if not even more so, than their medieval equivalents in London and Paris. Serbia also had tracts of fertile agricultural land, with wine being one of the most notable exports of Medieval Serbia. Medieval Serbia also had one of the strongest armies in Europe with well renowned knights and heavy cavalry as it managed to successfully defeat the large powers of its time in wars and battles, Hungary, Byzantium, Venice and Bulgaria (Even the feared Ottomans in a few engagements by the end of the 14th century). Really, in this time period, Serbia was at a level as comparable if not even superior to the European states of its time. Bulgaria was also vassalized to Serbia for a short time period in the early 14th century as well. Tsar Stefan Dusan made Serbia extend from modern and central Serbia through all of modern Montenegro, Albania, Macedonia (even including the Greek part) up to around Thessaly and Epirus.

    The problem with Medieval Serbia was that after the death of Tsar Stefan Dusan (he was poisoned by a Greek/Byzantine doctor) in 1355, Serbia fell apart into civil war in a similar manner to the Frankish Kingdom in the 9th century. The problem with this is that the timing was horrible as it happened exactly as the Turks began crossing into the Balkans through the rump Byzantine Empire. Two elite Serbian noble brothers Vukasin and Ugljesa Mrnjavcevic along with many others marched out to meet the Turks in front of modern day Edirne at the Battle of Maritsa in 1371. Since they outnumbered the Turks, the Turkish Pasha falsely promised to surrender the keys to the city to them, but at night, he launched a surprise attack to slaughter the Serbian army that was sleeping. Apparently they felt so confident in themselves that they did not even bother to put up proper patrols and night shifts to guard the camp which is why they got so easily slaughtered and massacred by the Turks, since after all, the Turks are obviously not known for their trustworthiness. Anyway, this is at least how the official historiography of that battle goes since from that moment, Serbia became a secondary state and any capacity it had to grow into a great and powerful European country, or world power, died there and then basically for eternity (Maybe with Stefan Dusan's death?). The Turks have permanently ruined the whole Balkans since the late 14th century (the fate of the Balkans then depended mostly on Serbia) until 1913 with their many centuries of Islamic barbarism, arbitrary violence and overall backwardness. The problem with not just Serbia, but countries in the Balkans and East Europe in general, is that even small errors, mistakes, setbacks or simply pure bad luck are usually permanent death blows which completely ruin these countries' and peoples' capacity to be on the world stage of great powers (this possibility died centuries ago) or even secondary powers, which is the highest they can realistically hope to achieve.

    By the way, in modern Serbia before WW1, Serbia was actually more economically prosperous than Switzerland as it was a well known phenomenon that Swiss guest workers, notably maids, would come to work in Serbia for money from wealthy families (so common that it features in a play of Branislav Nusic). Unfortunately, today it is the other way around.

    As for the Serb-Albanian relationship, in a 15th century Ottoman census it clearly showed that Serbs were the overwhelming majority population of Kosovo with there being a tiny Shiptar population. In fact, current "Albanian" cities such as Ishkodra (more properly called Skadar) were completely Serbian in this time period. As for Shiptars in general, the overwhelming amount of historical evidence points to the fakeness of their country, national identity and artificial non-native presence in the Balkans. The evidence that Shiptars migrated to the Balkans in the mid-Feudal ages is overwhelming (that is, after the supposed Slav migration of the 7th century, if you buy the Berlin-Vienna thesis for Serbs). Therefore, with the exception of Northern Epirus, all of modern day Albania is rightfully Serbian land inhabited by majority Muslim alien barbarians, not just Kosovo and parts of Monkeydonia.

    Replies: @Korenchkin, @German_reader, @Mr. Hack, @Epigon, @Denis

    points to the fakeness of their country, national identity and artificial non-native presence in the Balkans.

    lol, where did Albanians originate then in your version of history?

    • Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous
    @German_reader


    lol, where did Albanians originate then in your version of history?

     

    It's not my "version of history". The historical evidence that Albanians/Arnauts/Shiptars are not native to the current land of Albania is very strong. As Epigon has already explained, Albania is a completely fake and artificial creation of the Western great powers at the start of the 20th century made in order to deny Serbs of their rightful ancient ancestral lands. Hungarian historian Lajos Thallaczy literally designed the current Albanian flag by plagiarizing from Serb history and culture. Also, Bosnian ethnicity and statehood is a completely fake thing as well which was another social engineering project begun by Austria-Hungary.

    Basically, with the exceptions of Serbia, Greece, Romania and Bulgaria, literally every other country that exists in the Balkans is a completely artificial and fake product of ethno-sociopolitical engineering by powerful non-Balkan forces. The existence of all those fake countries is disgusting and criminally offensive, and if the great powers and those peoples' had any shred of basic human decency and ethics, they would instantly abolish those fake states and do the right thing by removing themselves from the world map. Anyway, even Romania and Bulgaria barely qualify as real countries since Vatican conspirators had a large part in cooking up the former, while the latter is a product of 1000 year old miscegenation between Serbs/Slavs and Tatars. Still, Romania and Bulgaria, along with Serbia and Greece, are certainly more real than all the other fake and monstrous entities in the Balkans.

    As for "Albanian" origins, there is strong, but not certain evidence for one of two explanations. First, that they come from the current Caucus around Azerbaijan or Dagestan where they gradually migrated by service in the Arab Islamic Caliphate, then onto Southern Italy and by boat into current Albania. The second mentions a tribe in current Southern Bulgaria called the Bessoi (note similarity to Besa) that also migrated towards current Albania. Regardless, what's clear is that there is a lot of evidence which suggests that "Albanians" are not native to current Albania, but that they come from somewhere else.

    Replies: @Anonymoose, @Epigon

  273. @Korenchkin
    @TheTotallyAnonymous

    Did you seriously write a wall of text to that shitty bait?
    Hohol hatred of Russia always proxies into hatred of Serbia, hell you can find Ukranians who defend the Ottoman Empire (on Reddit ofcourse) and claim that the Russian Tsarist Tyranny destroyed a tolerant and multi-ethnic Muslim Empire

    Point is, this stuff doesn't come from some logical conclusion, you're wasting your time "debunking it"
    Just LOL it and move on

    Replies: @AnonFromTN, @AnonFromTN

    You don’t write for the person you respond to (otherwise responding to ~1/3 of commenters here would be useless, as they are either paid trolls or paid or unpaid morons), you write for honest open-minded readers who might not be aware of the info you are providing. At some point Ron Unz wrote to me that according to his stats only a small percentage of readers actually comment. So, you write for that “silent majority” more than for commenters.

  274. @Korenchkin
    @TheTotallyAnonymous

    Did you seriously write a wall of text to that shitty bait?
    Hohol hatred of Russia always proxies into hatred of Serbia, hell you can find Ukranians who defend the Ottoman Empire (on Reddit ofcourse) and claim that the Russian Tsarist Tyranny destroyed a tolerant and multi-ethnic Muslim Empire

    Point is, this stuff doesn't come from some logical conclusion, you're wasting your time "debunking it"
    Just LOL it and move on

    Replies: @AnonFromTN, @AnonFromTN

    You are making a pretty common mistake: equating Ukrainians with Ukies. The difference is about the same as between Germans and Nazis. Ukies represent maybe 5% of Ukrainian population. The fraction of Ukies among Ukrainian expats in the US and Canada is much greater, because most of those people are descendants of Hitler lackeys who ran away from the Red Army to avoid being hanged as Nazi collaborators. Ukrainians and Germans are humans you can work and argue with. In contrast, Ukies and Nazis are vermin. The only way humans should deal with them is like with cockroaches: either you exterminate them, or you have a recurring problem.

    • LOL: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @AP
    @AnonFromTN

    I think that many more collaborators stayed behind than fled. Putin’s best friend in Ukraine is the son of one of them:

    Medvedchuk's father, Volodymyr Medvedchuk, avoided being drafted into the Red Army during the Great Patriotic War due to his suffering from Pott disease. During Nazi Germany's occupation of Ukraine, he worked for the German administration in a labor camp from April 1942 to November 1943. The section provided enforced deportation of the local able-bodied Ukrainian youth to work in Nazi Germany. After the retreat of German forces Volodymyr Medvedchuk was arrested by SMERSH on 7 August 1954 and sentenced to eight years of imprisonment and four of exile in Siberia "for participation in Ukrainian nationalistic activities." Viktor was born in Pochet, Krasnoyarsk Krai, Russian SFSR.

    ::::::::::

    Most of the concentration camp guards were captured Sovok soldiers. Collaborationist and Sovietism went hand in hand.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN, @AnonFromTN

    , @Gerard1234
    @AnonFromTN


    You are making a pretty common mistake: equating Ukrainians with Ukies. The difference is about the same as between Germans and Nazis. Ukies represent maybe 5% of Ukrainian population. The fraction of Ukies among Ukrainian expats in the US and Canada is much greater, because most of those people are descendants of Hitler lackeys who ran away from the Red Army to avoid being hanged as Nazi collaborators. Ukrainians and Germans are humans you can work and argue with. In contrast, Ukies and Nazis are vermin. The only way humans should deal with them is like with cockroaches: either you exterminate them, or you have a recurring problem.
     
    LOL....magnificent ( and factually correct) comment. Same thing with normal Bulgarians, and the Euro-Atlanticist filth who control their institutions and distort their history in a country that is about 85-90% russophile.

    But is if funny how Ukraine is cursed with these ukies,,,particularly the vermin who went to US and Canada. Compare them to the the Irish in America and what positive things they did for Ireland .......for instance that famous Riverdance thing - the main female and male Dancers were Americans of Irish descent......sending money to Ireland ( not dwelling to much on the IRA thing which isn't good) to the point that it is known around the world......investing in Irish businesses, promoting Irish culture in a positive and non-antagonistic way...and above all just having many talented people . Now compare that to the laughably nutjob primitive failures of ukrop descent in the US/Canada - the most useless and untalented imbeciles to have ever walked the earth. I am convinced that inbreeding is at high levels in their community


    BTW did you see that infamous picture of khokols gathered together like baboons, in an Italian court protesting the trial for murder of one of their sadistic scumbags who fought in Donbass ( killing an Italian photographer)?....it was hilarious because , like the most primitive undeveloped tribe in Africa, they were all wearing their vishivankas in the court , like is it some body armour!

    Replies: @AP, @AnonFromTN

  275. @TheTotallyAnonymous
    @AP


    Okay, the lack of clarity was my fault.

     

    All good.

    When America resettled African-Americans in Africa they took over the pure Africans, treated them like slaves, and created a quasi-American state, Liberia (the African-Americans were more civilized after all). In comparison to Albania, Serbia is kind of like a “Slavic” Liberia in the Balkans.

     

    Unfortunately for you, there are a few basic facts that completely shatter this falsehood you have imagined. That is, Medieval Serbia under the Nemanjic Dynasty. Especially in the first half of the 14th century. The Serbian Nemanjic Dynasty were the first elites on the European content to eat with forks, knives and spoons compared to the Western Euros you worship. Early 14th century Serbia also had it's capital cities located in Raska and Novo Brdo in Kosovo that were extremely wealthy in minerals. The population of Raska and Novo Brdo (this one is unfortunately infested with Shiptars today since it is on Kosovo), though only into a few tens of thousands of people, was just as large, if not even more so, than their medieval equivalents in London and Paris. Serbia also had tracts of fertile agricultural land, with wine being one of the most notable exports of Medieval Serbia. Medieval Serbia also had one of the strongest armies in Europe with well renowned knights and heavy cavalry as it managed to successfully defeat the large powers of its time in wars and battles, Hungary, Byzantium, Venice and Bulgaria (Even the feared Ottomans in a few engagements by the end of the 14th century). Really, in this time period, Serbia was at a level as comparable if not even superior to the European states of its time. Bulgaria was also vassalized to Serbia for a short time period in the early 14th century as well. Tsar Stefan Dusan made Serbia extend from modern and central Serbia through all of modern Montenegro, Albania, Macedonia (even including the Greek part) up to around Thessaly and Epirus.

    The problem with Medieval Serbia was that after the death of Tsar Stefan Dusan (he was poisoned by a Greek/Byzantine doctor) in 1355, Serbia fell apart into civil war in a similar manner to the Frankish Kingdom in the 9th century. The problem with this is that the timing was horrible as it happened exactly as the Turks began crossing into the Balkans through the rump Byzantine Empire. Two elite Serbian noble brothers Vukasin and Ugljesa Mrnjavcevic along with many others marched out to meet the Turks in front of modern day Edirne at the Battle of Maritsa in 1371. Since they outnumbered the Turks, the Turkish Pasha falsely promised to surrender the keys to the city to them, but at night, he launched a surprise attack to slaughter the Serbian army that was sleeping. Apparently they felt so confident in themselves that they did not even bother to put up proper patrols and night shifts to guard the camp which is why they got so easily slaughtered and massacred by the Turks, since after all, the Turks are obviously not known for their trustworthiness. Anyway, this is at least how the official historiography of that battle goes since from that moment, Serbia became a secondary state and any capacity it had to grow into a great and powerful European country, or world power, died there and then basically for eternity (Maybe with Stefan Dusan's death?). The Turks have permanently ruined the whole Balkans since the late 14th century (the fate of the Balkans then depended mostly on Serbia) until 1913 with their many centuries of Islamic barbarism, arbitrary violence and overall backwardness. The problem with not just Serbia, but countries in the Balkans and East Europe in general, is that even small errors, mistakes, setbacks or simply pure bad luck are usually permanent death blows which completely ruin these countries' and peoples' capacity to be on the world stage of great powers (this possibility died centuries ago) or even secondary powers, which is the highest they can realistically hope to achieve.

    By the way, in modern Serbia before WW1, Serbia was actually more economically prosperous than Switzerland as it was a well known phenomenon that Swiss guest workers, notably maids, would come to work in Serbia for money from wealthy families (so common that it features in a play of Branislav Nusic). Unfortunately, today it is the other way around.

    As for the Serb-Albanian relationship, in a 15th century Ottoman census it clearly showed that Serbs were the overwhelming majority population of Kosovo with there being a tiny Shiptar population. In fact, current "Albanian" cities such as Ishkodra (more properly called Skadar) were completely Serbian in this time period. As for Shiptars in general, the overwhelming amount of historical evidence points to the fakeness of their country, national identity and artificial non-native presence in the Balkans. The evidence that Shiptars migrated to the Balkans in the mid-Feudal ages is overwhelming (that is, after the supposed Slav migration of the 7th century, if you buy the Berlin-Vienna thesis for Serbs). Therefore, with the exception of Northern Epirus, all of modern day Albania is rightfully Serbian land inhabited by majority Muslim alien barbarians, not just Kosovo and parts of Monkeydonia.

    Replies: @Korenchkin, @German_reader, @Mr. Hack, @Epigon, @Denis

    I’m one of those “khokhols” that you seem to loathe, however, I find your rendition of Serbian history quite interesting and look forward to AP’s rebuttal. Any one or two Serbian history books that you could recommend in the English language would be appreciated.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Mr. Hack

    His post is like some nonsense Ukrainian nationalists sometimes write, but even more over the top.

    Epigon's excellent reply is sufficient. This gem stands out:


    By the way, in modern Serbia before WW1, Serbia was actually more economically prosperous than Switzerland as it was a well known phenomenon that Swiss guest workers, notably maids, would come to work in Serbia for money from wealthy families
     
    I mean, there were also French tutors in Russia in the 19th century, this doesn't mean Russia was more prosperous than France at that time.

    In 1890 Serbia's per capita product in 2010 dollars was $1,295. In Russia it was $1,550, in Bulgaria $1,670. In Galicia it was $1,947. In Bohemia $2,530, Austria $3,005, England $6,228.

    http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.361.386&rep=rep1&type=pdf

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  276. @TheTotallyAnonymous
    @AP


    Okay, the lack of clarity was my fault.

     

    All good.

    When America resettled African-Americans in Africa they took over the pure Africans, treated them like slaves, and created a quasi-American state, Liberia (the African-Americans were more civilized after all). In comparison to Albania, Serbia is kind of like a “Slavic” Liberia in the Balkans.

     

    Unfortunately for you, there are a few basic facts that completely shatter this falsehood you have imagined. That is, Medieval Serbia under the Nemanjic Dynasty. Especially in the first half of the 14th century. The Serbian Nemanjic Dynasty were the first elites on the European content to eat with forks, knives and spoons compared to the Western Euros you worship. Early 14th century Serbia also had it's capital cities located in Raska and Novo Brdo in Kosovo that were extremely wealthy in minerals. The population of Raska and Novo Brdo (this one is unfortunately infested with Shiptars today since it is on Kosovo), though only into a few tens of thousands of people, was just as large, if not even more so, than their medieval equivalents in London and Paris. Serbia also had tracts of fertile agricultural land, with wine being one of the most notable exports of Medieval Serbia. Medieval Serbia also had one of the strongest armies in Europe with well renowned knights and heavy cavalry as it managed to successfully defeat the large powers of its time in wars and battles, Hungary, Byzantium, Venice and Bulgaria (Even the feared Ottomans in a few engagements by the end of the 14th century). Really, in this time period, Serbia was at a level as comparable if not even superior to the European states of its time. Bulgaria was also vassalized to Serbia for a short time period in the early 14th century as well. Tsar Stefan Dusan made Serbia extend from modern and central Serbia through all of modern Montenegro, Albania, Macedonia (even including the Greek part) up to around Thessaly and Epirus.

    The problem with Medieval Serbia was that after the death of Tsar Stefan Dusan (he was poisoned by a Greek/Byzantine doctor) in 1355, Serbia fell apart into civil war in a similar manner to the Frankish Kingdom in the 9th century. The problem with this is that the timing was horrible as it happened exactly as the Turks began crossing into the Balkans through the rump Byzantine Empire. Two elite Serbian noble brothers Vukasin and Ugljesa Mrnjavcevic along with many others marched out to meet the Turks in front of modern day Edirne at the Battle of Maritsa in 1371. Since they outnumbered the Turks, the Turkish Pasha falsely promised to surrender the keys to the city to them, but at night, he launched a surprise attack to slaughter the Serbian army that was sleeping. Apparently they felt so confident in themselves that they did not even bother to put up proper patrols and night shifts to guard the camp which is why they got so easily slaughtered and massacred by the Turks, since after all, the Turks are obviously not known for their trustworthiness. Anyway, this is at least how the official historiography of that battle goes since from that moment, Serbia became a secondary state and any capacity it had to grow into a great and powerful European country, or world power, died there and then basically for eternity (Maybe with Stefan Dusan's death?). The Turks have permanently ruined the whole Balkans since the late 14th century (the fate of the Balkans then depended mostly on Serbia) until 1913 with their many centuries of Islamic barbarism, arbitrary violence and overall backwardness. The problem with not just Serbia, but countries in the Balkans and East Europe in general, is that even small errors, mistakes, setbacks or simply pure bad luck are usually permanent death blows which completely ruin these countries' and peoples' capacity to be on the world stage of great powers (this possibility died centuries ago) or even secondary powers, which is the highest they can realistically hope to achieve.

    By the way, in modern Serbia before WW1, Serbia was actually more economically prosperous than Switzerland as it was a well known phenomenon that Swiss guest workers, notably maids, would come to work in Serbia for money from wealthy families (so common that it features in a play of Branislav Nusic). Unfortunately, today it is the other way around.

    As for the Serb-Albanian relationship, in a 15th century Ottoman census it clearly showed that Serbs were the overwhelming majority population of Kosovo with there being a tiny Shiptar population. In fact, current "Albanian" cities such as Ishkodra (more properly called Skadar) were completely Serbian in this time period. As for Shiptars in general, the overwhelming amount of historical evidence points to the fakeness of their country, national identity and artificial non-native presence in the Balkans. The evidence that Shiptars migrated to the Balkans in the mid-Feudal ages is overwhelming (that is, after the supposed Slav migration of the 7th century, if you buy the Berlin-Vienna thesis for Serbs). Therefore, with the exception of Northern Epirus, all of modern day Albania is rightfully Serbian land inhabited by majority Muslim alien barbarians, not just Kosovo and parts of Monkeydonia.

    Replies: @Korenchkin, @German_reader, @Mr. Hack, @Epigon, @Denis

    Several issues. First of all, take the fork, prosperous pre-WW1 Kingdom of Serbia, Maritsa narrative nonsense and throw it in the garbage. I hate kool-aid history with a passion because very important facts and primary sources get overlooked while the focus shifts to fiction and fabrications.

    Medieval Serbia was sparsely populated and relied on Saxon miners, Ragusan trade, Germanic knights (an entire guard of them – Allemanic Guard), mercenaries from as far as Catalonia to succesfuly rival Bulgaria, Hungary, Byzantines and Venice. In fact, some areas were so sparsely populated that they were leased out to Ragusan republic for a yearly tribute – the Orthodox Serbs abandoned the lands under pressure from Italian/Papal missionaries and monks – those lands are present-day Croatia – Ston, Pelješac, Konavle, Korčula, Mljet.
    The Ottoman conquest of present-day Republic of Srpska, North Macedonia, Kosovo, and Greek Macedonia gave Ottomans several biggest gold and in particular silver mines, for example.
    Even in the crucial battle of Velbazhd, there were many foreign mercenaries (Catalonian band included) on Serbian side in an attempt to bolster inferior Serb numbers compared to Bulgarian ones. Almost half of Bulgarian army didn’t even engage in that battle because they were on their way, while the part which was defeated was roughly a match for victorious Serb one.

    Don’t engage in mythology, if you are truly interested in history, focus solely on preserved primary evidence, followed by secondary, contemporary sources. Modern historiography of medieval period consists of a ridiculous amount of wishful thinking and creative writing.

    The fateful Kosovo battle of 1389 saw less than 20 000 combatants on Serb side. The demographic losses sustained during it meant that Serbian vassal contingents which fought on Ottoman side at Rovine in 1395, Nicopolis 1396 and Angora in 1402 were relatively small and no Serbian resistance was even possible in the 1389 attle aftermath – there were not enough trained military age men left – and hence vassalhood was offered despite Ottomans not conquering the land.

    Don’t engage in mythology, if you are truly interested in history, focus solely on preserved primary evidence, followed by secondary, contemporary sources. Modern historiography of medieval period consists of a ridiculous amount of wishful thinking and creative writing.

    Arnaut tribes were part of Emperor/Tzar Dušan’s armies that conquered Epirus and came as far as Aetolia. In the aftermath of his death, (part) Serb aristocrats ruled over the small successor statelets in Aetolia, Epirus, Thessaly.

    Albania was first used to describe the present-day Albania in the beginning of 20th century. Dyrrachion, Epirus (despotate) etc. were historical terms
    What was called Albanian was Venetian province of Albania Veneta, corresponding roughly to medieval Zeta, which naturally included Shkodra/Skadar as its capital. Hoxha regime bulldozed all remains they could, as well as imposing mandatory names and surnames, banning all minorities from declaring themselves as anything but Albanians, banning any newspaper, jamming radio broadcasts from Yugoslavia etc.
    I believe only 2% of Albanians were literate at the end of 19th century. Austro-Hungary invested heavily into the creation of Albania from 1907 to 1913, culminating with Great Powers creating it at London Conference and selecting an Ottoman Pasha to rule over it.

    PS: Skenderbeg’s brother and father are buried at a Serb monastery Hilandar, dying as Serb Orthodox monks, his father was of distant Serb descent, while his mather was a 1/1 Serb – Voisava. His sibling’s names are indicative as well. There are preserved letters written by him and his father in Serbian Cyrillic.

    • Agree: AP
    • Replies: @peterAUS
    @Epigon

    Informative.

    (Un)fortunately, irrelevant for all practical purposes.

    Myths, not facts, rule humans. Masses in particular.

    , @TheTotallyAnonymous
    @Epigon


    Don’t engage in mythology, if you are truly interested in history, focus solely on preserved primary evidence, followed by secondary, contemporary sources. Modern historiography of medieval period consists of a ridiculous amount of wishful thinking and creative writing.

     

    Since you repeated this twice, this is obviously your most important message. The only problem is that analyzing primary evidence and secondary sources from contemporaries of the time is not easy since it requires, especially for the medieval ages, knowledge of Latin and Greek, and Old Slavonic as well. Of course, for some primary evidence technical-scientific understanding is also necessary for certain things and so on.

    I hate kool-aid history with a passion because very important facts and primary sources get overlooked while the focus shifts to fiction and fabrications.

     

    What do you define as"kool-aid" history?

    Since according to you, things like Vladimir Corovic's "History of the Serbs" and "History of the Serbian people" must be completely unreliable garbage then? It's true that his Yugoslav-ism is cancerous and that makes at least his early Medieval and 20th century version of history unreliable, of course.

    My only query then would be, what exactly is the version of Serbian Medieval history that you have understood? Some mediocre Balkan state with low population that did relatively well considering it's low population and difficult geography? Did the Battle of Maritsa not happen since there is too little primary source evidence for it?

    Otherwise, yes, I was already aware of the Saxon miners, foreign mercenaries, and Catholicising efforts. Also, thanks for the information about the plain proof for Skanderberg's Serb origin, more information about the fakeness of Albania and Hoxha's suppression of Serb culture.

  277. @AP
    @Brutis

    Serbs aren't Slavs, but Slavic-speaking Balkan people, like Albanians. I felt sorry for them when Kosovo was stolen from them but historically they have caused a lot of evil to Europeans.

    Are you from India? That would be very funny but not surprising.

    Ukraine competes with Belarus as being the whitest country in the world. Is that why you hate it?

    Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous, @Brutis, @melanf, @Denis

    Serbs aren’t Slavs,

    • Disagree: Thorfinnsson
    • Replies: @Anonymoose
    @melanf

    https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTx-R3GiyCD3rJXiByTzNUbwor4F-EApFuhyer97P1uYmPCr8I5hA

  278. @German_reader
    @TheTotallyAnonymous


    Maybe I should’ve clarified that I was just joking with Rodger Eliot.
     
    It's not that funny since he really did kill several people (some of them in an exceedingly brutal and personal manner, he bludgeoned his Chinese roommates to death with a hammer).
    And when one watches his videos (which would be unintentionally hilarious with their excessive self-pity, if one didn't know the context), it's pretty clear that he had a major personality disorder of the narcissist kind. I don't think the guy was in any sense a victim of society or of women, he just wasn't quite right in the head. Maybe there are factors in modern society like general atomization or increasing use of antidepressants which increase the likelihood of something like this. But blaming it on the sexual behaviour of women is rather misguided imo, as is the incel movement in general.

    Replies: @Kent Nationalist

    Hopefully he has at least served to dissuade some European men having children with Chinese women

  279. @Epigon
    @TheTotallyAnonymous

    Several issues. First of all, take the fork, prosperous pre-WW1 Kingdom of Serbia, Maritsa narrative nonsense and throw it in the garbage. I hate kool-aid history with a passion because very important facts and primary sources get overlooked while the focus shifts to fiction and fabrications.

    Medieval Serbia was sparsely populated and relied on Saxon miners, Ragusan trade, Germanic knights (an entire guard of them - Allemanic Guard), mercenaries from as far as Catalonia to succesfuly rival Bulgaria, Hungary, Byzantines and Venice. In fact, some areas were so sparsely populated that they were leased out to Ragusan republic for a yearly tribute - the Orthodox Serbs abandoned the lands under pressure from Italian/Papal missionaries and monks - those lands are present-day Croatia - Ston, Pelješac, Konavle, Korčula, Mljet.
    The Ottoman conquest of present-day Republic of Srpska, North Macedonia, Kosovo, and Greek Macedonia gave Ottomans several biggest gold and in particular silver mines, for example.
    Even in the crucial battle of Velbazhd, there were many foreign mercenaries (Catalonian band included) on Serbian side in an attempt to bolster inferior Serb numbers compared to Bulgarian ones. Almost half of Bulgarian army didn’t even engage in that battle because they were on their way, while the part which was defeated was roughly a match for victorious Serb one.

    Don’t engage in mythology, if you are truly interested in history, focus solely on preserved primary evidence, followed by secondary, contemporary sources. Modern historiography of medieval period consists of a ridiculous amount of wishful thinking and creative writing.

    The fateful Kosovo battle of 1389 saw less than 20 000 combatants on Serb side. The demographic losses sustained during it meant that Serbian vassal contingents which fought on Ottoman side at Rovine in 1395, Nicopolis 1396 and Angora in 1402 were relatively small and no Serbian resistance was even possible in the 1389 attle aftermath - there were not enough trained military age men left - and hence vassalhood was offered despite Ottomans not conquering the land.

    Don’t engage in mythology, if you are truly interested in history, focus solely on preserved primary evidence, followed by secondary, contemporary sources. Modern historiography of medieval period consists of a ridiculous amount of wishful thinking and creative writing.

    Arnaut tribes were part of Emperor/Tzar Dušan’s armies that conquered Epirus and came as far as Aetolia. In the aftermath of his death, (part) Serb aristocrats ruled over the small successor statelets in Aetolia, Epirus, Thessaly.

    Albania was first used to describe the present-day Albania in the beginning of 20th century. Dyrrachion, Epirus (despotate) etc. were historical terms
    What was called Albanian was Venetian province of Albania Veneta, corresponding roughly to medieval Zeta, which naturally included Shkodra/Skadar as its capital. Hoxha regime bulldozed all remains they could, as well as imposing mandatory names and surnames, banning all minorities from declaring themselves as anything but Albanians, banning any newspaper, jamming radio broadcasts from Yugoslavia etc.
    I believe only 2% of Albanians were literate at the end of 19th century. Austro-Hungary invested heavily into the creation of Albania from 1907 to 1913, culminating with Great Powers creating it at London Conference and selecting an Ottoman Pasha to rule over it.

    PS: Skenderbeg’s brother and father are buried at a Serb monastery Hilandar, dying as Serb Orthodox monks, his father was of distant Serb descent, while his mather was a 1/1 Serb - Voisava. His sibling’s names are indicative as well. There are preserved letters written by him and his father in Serbian Cyrillic.

    Replies: @peterAUS, @TheTotallyAnonymous

    Informative.

    (Un)fortunately, irrelevant for all practical purposes.

    Myths, not facts, rule humans. Masses in particular.

  280. @Anonymous
    @Epigon

    Societies have been more or less repressive of female sexuality at varying times. Prostitution, for example, was probably more tolerated in most European countries circa 1700 than it is in the US today. Whether men exerted more control over female behavior at other points in history...probably they did? Or maybe not. Our knowledge of social norms in past eras is sketchy and mostly confined to the upper classes. My guess is they were more repressive in some respects, less repressive in others.

    A young woman's sexuality is (mostly) an asset for her, and young women will realize this naturally, without any outside help. It is a weapon, and like any weapon the trick is to use it in the right place at the right time. Women have been trying to show off their sexualities in various ways since before man was man. We are animals: girl and boy are turned on by each other, they screw and make babies. Nothing complicated about it. No Jewish conspiracy required.

    Replies: @anonymous coward

    Pretty much everything you said is total bullshit.

    a) “Repression” (though it really isn’t) of female sexuality is not a male thing, nor a patriarchy imperative. It’s a female thing driven by females, to allow females access to stable homes and money-earning fathers for their children.

    b) The job of women isn’t to “show off sexuality”, their primary drive is to vet male suitors and practice eugenics for their kids. “Female sexuality” of the slutty form is a gender inversion where women started acting like men in the second half of the 20th century. It was invented and forced on women by lecherous men and perverted lesbians.

    c) Sluttiness and promiscuity never lead to high birth rates. The rule is that the more loose sex, the less babies are born. (See points a) and b) above for an explanation, it should be obvious.)

    d) The animal imperative of the human creature is monogamy, not promiscuity. Promiscuity only became possible in the 20th century via a massive overdose of poisonous chemicals and brainwashing propaganda. It’s as far from natural as you can get while still on this Earth.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @anonymous coward


    The animal imperative of the human creature is monogamy
     
    iirc the majority of recorded cultures in history have had some form of polygamy, mostly polygyny (obviously only for the most successful men).
    Monogamy as a cultural norm seems to be more of a European phenomenon (even of pre-Christian origin among Greeks and Romans, later taken up by the church), not a human universal because of biology.

    Replies: @anonymous coward, @AP

    , @Anonymous
    @anonymous coward

    Women who are sexually attractive (young, pretty, well proportioned) are going to show it off to the extent society allows them to (social norms have been historically dictated by men), because this is their reproductive value. Men too will try to show off whatever it is (strength, intelligence, social skills) that makes them a good mate . If you've got it, flaunt it. Your "rule" about loose sex doesn't seem to be in evidence in much of the world, as promiscuous Africa has the highest birth rates of all and conservative East Asia the lowest.

    Monogamy is not the animal imperative of the human creature; it is simply an agreement in any given stable social group that we are not going to screw each other's wives (even then, often honored more in the breach than the observance). Men throughout history have been perfectly happy--enthusiastic even--to fuck random women when they're reasonably sure there won't be repercussions for doing so. So you kill the (outgroup) men first, then you take their women. Whole nations (Iceland) were founded on this practice. Human beings in aggregate are closer to chimps than to your romantic fairytale notions.

    Replies: @neutral

  281. German_reader says:
    @anonymous coward
    @Anonymous

    Pretty much everything you said is total bullshit.

    a) "Repression" (though it really isn't) of female sexuality is not a male thing, nor a patriarchy imperative. It's a female thing driven by females, to allow females access to stable homes and money-earning fathers for their children.

    b) The job of women isn't to "show off sexuality", their primary drive is to vet male suitors and practice eugenics for their kids. "Female sexuality" of the slutty form is a gender inversion where women started acting like men in the second half of the 20th century. It was invented and forced on women by lecherous men and perverted lesbians.

    c) Sluttiness and promiscuity never lead to high birth rates. The rule is that the more loose sex, the less babies are born. (See points a) and b) above for an explanation, it should be obvious.)

    d) The animal imperative of the human creature is monogamy, not promiscuity. Promiscuity only became possible in the 20th century via a massive overdose of poisonous chemicals and brainwashing propaganda. It's as far from natural as you can get while still on this Earth.

    Replies: @German_reader, @Anonymous

    The animal imperative of the human creature is monogamy

    iirc the majority of recorded cultures in history have had some form of polygamy, mostly polygyny (obviously only for the most successful men).
    Monogamy as a cultural norm seems to be more of a European phenomenon (even of pre-Christian origin among Greeks and Romans, later taken up by the church), not a human universal because of biology.

    • Replies: @anonymous coward
    @German_reader


    iirc the majority of recorded cultures in history have had some form of polygamy, mostly polygyny (obviously only for the most successful men)
     
    That only proves that culture is not natural. (A fact that should be obvious with half a second of deliberation.)

    Monogamy as a cultural norm seems to be more of a European phenomenon
     
    Monogamy is a desired norm in every human society. It has been enforced in very few cultures; but then again, things like banning murder, rape, cannibalism, infanticide (etc) haven't historically been enforced either. That doesn't mean that cannibalism or infanticide are 'natural'.

    Replies: @German_reader

    , @AP
    @German_reader

    Sorry, you are mistaken. Although elites have throughout history practiced polygamy, most human relationships across cultures have been monogamous with occasional rather uncommon infidelity. This is even reflected in human sexual organ physiology, compared to that of other primates.

    Replies: @German_reader

  282. @reiner Tor
    @peterAUS

    I guess you can now go report to your bosses that we didn’t take your bait and won’t commit acts of violence. As you have guessed correctly, we have never even thought of killing anything more dangerous than a hornet, and it’s unlikely to change. We’re not 20, after all.

    Replies: @Brutis, @peterAUS

    Classic cuckservative. Soft, weak, moderately dumb, with zero practical social intelligence.
    Added to the list.

    • Replies: @anonymous coward
    @peterAUS


    Added to the list.
     
    What a cuck! A real man's man would have tracked his address and beat his snot in!

    Replies: @peterAUS

    , @reiner Tor
    @peterAUS

    I’m pretty disappointed you didn’t answer the question: if someone openly writes about committing violence on a comment board on a website, is he a moron, a some intelligence operative, an NGO operative (think SPLC or ADL), or is this a sign of some superior practical social intelligence?

    Good riddance.

  283. @German_reader
    @anonymous coward


    The animal imperative of the human creature is monogamy
     
    iirc the majority of recorded cultures in history have had some form of polygamy, mostly polygyny (obviously only for the most successful men).
    Monogamy as a cultural norm seems to be more of a European phenomenon (even of pre-Christian origin among Greeks and Romans, later taken up by the church), not a human universal because of biology.

    Replies: @anonymous coward, @AP

    iirc the majority of recorded cultures in history have had some form of polygamy, mostly polygyny (obviously only for the most successful men)

    That only proves that culture is not natural. (A fact that should be obvious with half a second of deliberation.)

    Monogamy as a cultural norm seems to be more of a European phenomenon

    Monogamy is a desired norm in every human society. It has been enforced in very few cultures; but then again, things like banning murder, rape, cannibalism, infanticide (etc) haven’t historically been enforced either. That doesn’t mean that cannibalism or infanticide are ‘natural’.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @anonymous coward


    Monogamy is a desired norm in every human society.
     
    It's clearly not desired by the big men in such societies who have multiple wives/concubines and sometimes dozens of children.
    If the goal of life is reproductive success, monogamy is in some sense an unnatural restriction on the desire of men to impregnate as many women as possible and be more successful in passing on their genes than competitors.
    There are many good reasons to reject polygamy, but I don't think it can be called "unnatural".

    Replies: @Dmitry

  284. @peterAUS
    @reiner Tor

    Classic cuckservative. Soft, weak, moderately dumb, with zero practical social intelligence.
    Added to the list.

    Replies: @anonymous coward, @reiner Tor

    Added to the list.

    What a cuck! A real man’s man would have tracked his address and beat his snot in!

    • Replies: @peterAUS
    @anonymous coward

    Hehe....beating a moderately dumb, socially not very intelligent, weak and soft man!?
    Interesting....
    Curious (sort of...): why?

  285. German_reader says:
    @anonymous coward
    @German_reader


    iirc the majority of recorded cultures in history have had some form of polygamy, mostly polygyny (obviously only for the most successful men)
     
    That only proves that culture is not natural. (A fact that should be obvious with half a second of deliberation.)

    Monogamy as a cultural norm seems to be more of a European phenomenon
     
    Monogamy is a desired norm in every human society. It has been enforced in very few cultures; but then again, things like banning murder, rape, cannibalism, infanticide (etc) haven't historically been enforced either. That doesn't mean that cannibalism or infanticide are 'natural'.

    Replies: @German_reader

    Monogamy is a desired norm in every human society.

    It’s clearly not desired by the big men in such societies who have multiple wives/concubines and sometimes dozens of children.
    If the goal of life is reproductive success, monogamy is in some sense an unnatural restriction on the desire of men to impregnate as many women as possible and be more successful in passing on their genes than competitors.
    There are many good reasons to reject polygamy, but I don’t think it can be called “unnatural”.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @German_reader

    Your view is sounding a little like Schopenhauer - in one of his less intelligent writing.


    "In London alone there are 80,000 prostitutes. Then what are these women who have come too quickly to this most terrible end but human sacrifices on the altar of monogamy? The women here referred to and who are placed in this wretched position are the inevitable counterbalance to the European lady, with her pretensions and arrogance. Hence polygamy is a real benefit to the female sex, taking it as a whole. And, on the other hand, there is no reason why a man whose wife suffers from chronic illness, or remains barren, or has gradually become too old for him, should not take a second. Many people become converts to Mormonism for the precise reasons that they condemn the unnatural institution of monogamy."
     
    But Schopenhauer's view depends on historical conditions. For most of history, as a result of far greater violent and accidental deaths reducing the number of men - women have been more numerous than men even in the younger age groups. But in developed countries of the 21st century, this is not the situation.

    Replies: @German_reader

  286. List?

    By list do you mean IGNORE?

    The Ignore feature is for cowards, Peter.

    Don’t be a coward.

    • Replies: @peterAUS
    @Thorfinnsson

    Don't think so.
    Depends what you want. "Debating" or..something else.

    Tell me something: is there anything/anyone you tend to ignore? Vegans, lesbians...? Libtards? People who hate guns? People who can't stand violence? You really don't mind spending your time given on this planet to interact with them? Really?

    If you can choose between ..ahm...discussig anything with them and something else, say....fishing...reading/watching something you like....gym work...etc...what would you choose?

    About half of people commenting here are, fundamentally, ideological enemies, at this stage.
    The rest...among those there are, IMHO, less than 10 % who are some sort of thinkers. 40% are....white noise.

    So....why would you want to spend your time...effort...energy on those 50 %, even those 40%?
    You have plenty of time and energy. Good for you. You sure?

    Aren't we in the phase where we should focus ourselves? Use our time, energy and effort better?

    Or...not?

    I know what "cuskservatives" want there.
    I don't.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @German_reader

  287. @peterAUS
    @reiner Tor

    Classic cuckservative. Soft, weak, moderately dumb, with zero practical social intelligence.
    Added to the list.

    Replies: @anonymous coward, @reiner Tor

    I’m pretty disappointed you didn’t answer the question: if someone openly writes about committing violence on a comment board on a website, is he a moron, a some intelligence operative, an NGO operative (think SPLC or ADL), or is this a sign of some superior practical social intelligence?

    Good riddance.

  288. @anonymous coward
    @peterAUS


    Added to the list.
     
    What a cuck! A real man's man would have tracked his address and beat his snot in!

    Replies: @peterAUS

    Hehe….beating a moderately dumb, socially not very intelligent, weak and soft man!?
    Interesting….
    Curious (sort of…): why?

    • Troll: German_reader
  289. @German_reader
    @anonymous coward


    The animal imperative of the human creature is monogamy
     
    iirc the majority of recorded cultures in history have had some form of polygamy, mostly polygyny (obviously only for the most successful men).
    Monogamy as a cultural norm seems to be more of a European phenomenon (even of pre-Christian origin among Greeks and Romans, later taken up by the church), not a human universal because of biology.

    Replies: @anonymous coward, @AP

    Sorry, you are mistaken. Although elites have throughout history practiced polygamy, most human relationships across cultures have been monogamous with occasional rather uncommon infidelity. This is even reflected in human sexual organ physiology, compared to that of other primates.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @AP


    Although elites have throughout history practiced polygamy, most human relationships across cultures have been monogamous
     
    That goes without saying that most relationships have been monogamous, since only the most successful men could afford maintaining several women and since the number of women was finite and could only be expanded through high-risk activities like war. But I don't think there is any inherent disposition in men against polygamy, it clearly has been attractive in many societies for high-status men.
    Obviously costs and benefits for women are rather different. For a woman it's of course beneficial if she and her offspring can monopolize a man's resources.

    This is even reflected in human sexual organ physiology
     
    How so?

    Replies: @AP

  290. @Thorfinnsson
    List?

    By list do you mean IGNORE?

    The Ignore feature is for cowards, Peter.

    Don't be a coward.

    Replies: @peterAUS

    Don’t think so.
    Depends what you want. “Debating” or..something else.

    Tell me something: is there anything/anyone you tend to ignore? Vegans, lesbians…? Libtards? People who hate guns? People who can’t stand violence? You really don’t mind spending your time given on this planet to interact with them? Really?

    If you can choose between ..ahm…discussig anything with them and something else, say….fishing…reading/watching something you like….gym work…etc…what would you choose?

    About half of people commenting here are, fundamentally, ideological enemies, at this stage.
    The rest…among those there are, IMHO, less than 10 % who are some sort of thinkers. 40% are….white noise.

    So….why would you want to spend your time…effort…energy on those 50 %, even those 40%?
    You have plenty of time and energy. Good for you. You sure?

    Aren’t we in the phase where we should focus ourselves? Use our time, energy and effort better?

    Or…not?

    I know what “cuskservatives” want there.
    I don’t.

    • Troll: reiner Tor
    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    @peterAUS

    There's a difference between using the scroll wheel, page down, or end key vs. deliberately hiding people's comments.

    Replies: @peterAUS

    , @German_reader
    @peterAUS


    among those there are, IMHO, less than 10 % who are some sort of thinkers.
     
    Well, you certainly aren't one, you're a total retard who writes nothing but low-value comments about how tough he is and how other commenters are weaklings for not following up on your constant insinuations about violent methods. Again: anyone who writes such things on the net is either a clueless moron (who might eventually have his door kicked down and his premises searched by police for ineffectual net nonsense) or he pursues some other agenda.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @utu

  291. @Brutis
    @AP

    Nigga, what hurts me is you haven't made Slaves of everyone past Berlin yet.

    Why the fuck did you stop?

    What hurts me is that a single Turk takes breath on this Earth.

    Men looking Pasty is feminine do you think I care that you can make piss water out of Potatoes or let an Anglo fuck your wife for E-Fame Khohol?

    Replies: @AP

    You have a strange preoccupation with cocks and Anglos. As an English-speaking Indian what does this say about your personal experiences?

    • Replies: @Brutis
    @AP

    You're a Khohol I'm Saka.

    Replies: @AP

  292. German_reader says:
    @AP
    @German_reader

    Sorry, you are mistaken. Although elites have throughout history practiced polygamy, most human relationships across cultures have been monogamous with occasional rather uncommon infidelity. This is even reflected in human sexual organ physiology, compared to that of other primates.

    Replies: @German_reader

    Although elites have throughout history practiced polygamy, most human relationships across cultures have been monogamous

    That goes without saying that most relationships have been monogamous, since only the most successful men could afford maintaining several women and since the number of women was finite and could only be expanded through high-risk activities like war. But I don’t think there is any inherent disposition in men against polygamy, it clearly has been attractive in many societies for high-status men.
    Obviously costs and benefits for women are rather different. For a woman it’s of course beneficial if she and her offspring can monopolize a man’s resources.

    This is even reflected in human sexual organ physiology

    How so?

    • Replies: @AP
    @German_reader


    That goes without saying that most relationships have been monogamous, since only the most successful men could afford maintaining several women and since the number of women was finite and could only be expanded through high-risk activities like war. But I don’t think there is any inherent disposition in men against polygamy, it clearly has been attractive in many societies for high-status men.
     
    Humans evolved to be basically monogamous but in certain circumstances they can be not so.

    This is even reflected in human sexual organ physiology

    How so?
     

    Everything you ever wanted to know about primate genitals and monogamy ("Brutis" will be overjoyed reading this article):

    http://theconversation.com/why-did-humans-evolve-big-penises-but-small-testicles-71652

  293. @peterAUS
    @Thorfinnsson

    Don't think so.
    Depends what you want. "Debating" or..something else.

    Tell me something: is there anything/anyone you tend to ignore? Vegans, lesbians...? Libtards? People who hate guns? People who can't stand violence? You really don't mind spending your time given on this planet to interact with them? Really?

    If you can choose between ..ahm...discussig anything with them and something else, say....fishing...reading/watching something you like....gym work...etc...what would you choose?

    About half of people commenting here are, fundamentally, ideological enemies, at this stage.
    The rest...among those there are, IMHO, less than 10 % who are some sort of thinkers. 40% are....white noise.

    So....why would you want to spend your time...effort...energy on those 50 %, even those 40%?
    You have plenty of time and energy. Good for you. You sure?

    Aren't we in the phase where we should focus ourselves? Use our time, energy and effort better?

    Or...not?

    I know what "cuskservatives" want there.
    I don't.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @German_reader

    There’s a difference between using the scroll wheel, page down, or end key vs. deliberately hiding people’s comments.

    • Replies: @peterAUS
    @Thorfinnsson

    Two easons I skim articles on this site and, more importantly, comments. Hehe...those I can see, that is.

    First, less important, to get a bit of information here and there. Rare, but worth skimming. Local people and/or experts in certain fields.

    Second, really important,watching to see a rudimentary idea of "our" think tank coming out, somehow, SOMEWHERE. That one for a couple of sub=reasons.
    I guess I make sense. For those 5% around, that is. The rest simply don't matter.

  294. @AnonFromTN
    @Korenchkin

    You are making a pretty common mistake: equating Ukrainians with Ukies. The difference is about the same as between Germans and Nazis. Ukies represent maybe 5% of Ukrainian population. The fraction of Ukies among Ukrainian expats in the US and Canada is much greater, because most of those people are descendants of Hitler lackeys who ran away from the Red Army to avoid being hanged as Nazi collaborators. Ukrainians and Germans are humans you can work and argue with. In contrast, Ukies and Nazis are vermin. The only way humans should deal with them is like with cockroaches: either you exterminate them, or you have a recurring problem.

    Replies: @AP, @Gerard1234

    I think that many more collaborators stayed behind than fled. Putin’s best friend in Ukraine is the son of one of them:

    Medvedchuk’s father, Volodymyr Medvedchuk, avoided being drafted into the Red Army during the Great Patriotic War due to his suffering from Pott disease. During Nazi Germany’s occupation of Ukraine, he worked for the German administration in a labor camp from April 1942 to November 1943. The section provided enforced deportation of the local able-bodied Ukrainian youth to work in Nazi Germany. After the retreat of German forces Volodymyr Medvedchuk was arrested by SMERSH on 7 August 1954 and sentenced to eight years of imprisonment and four of exile in Siberia “for participation in Ukrainian nationalistic activities.” Viktor was born in Pochet, Krasnoyarsk Krai, Russian SFSR.

    ::::::::::

    Most of the concentration camp guards were captured Sovok soldiers. Collaborationist and Sovietism went hand in hand.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    @AP

    Yea, I never thought that I would fault Stalin for being to soft, but here it is. He should have exterminated every single traitor who worked for the Nazis, rather than sending them to camps from which they eventually returned.

    It was a good thing that after the Nazis were kicked out of many towns by the Red Army the NKVD troops arrived “late”, a few days after the liberation. I suspect it was done on purpose, to let locals hang their collaborators (which they did) and relieve the state from spending resources on court proceedings, transporting the scum to camps, and then feeding the vermin there for years.

    Replies: @AP

    , @AnonFromTN
    @AP


    Collaborationist and Sovietism went hand in hand.
     
    In that case, how do you explain that France and many other “democratic” countries readily folded and submitted to Nazi occupation? In contrast, Soviet Union did not fold, and crushed Nazi Germany in the end. If your assertion were true, it would have been the other way around. From which it follows that your statement is utter BS.

    Replies: @utu, @AP, @Mikhail, @reiner Tor

  295. Re “cowards”.

    People who can, ad nauseam, regurgitate “what’s wrong”. That’s for that 45 % here who do think something is wrong about the paradigm. 50% are more than happy with it, of course. Cowards are
    those who lack the moral fibre to think about SOLUTIONS.

    Those 5 % is what, IMHO, this site is all about. For now, because the …haha…”moderation” will increase. That thread about “Guns” as a good example.

    We….do…not…have…time….to…fuck….around……anymore.

    In the real world, politics and power play, time and timing are the most important.

    And…we are wasting ours, IMHO. Well, those 50 % that is.
    Understandable.

    Just saw that “scroll wheel, page down, or end key”. Funny. You use software to do the dumb work for you.
    Hehe…you don’t manually guide a missile anymore. Or aim a cannon. You let the processor and program do it for you. Etc. The principle.
    I am actually contemplating writing a script to, using certain algorithms, recognize “cuckservatives” on this site. Just a local Javascript plugin.
    Anyway….

    • Replies: @Brutis
    @peterAUS

    Stfu with your cryptic bull shit.

    Stop acting like everyone is a coward when most people would answer a general mobilization.

    Yes the ability to act alone is rare and to act and get away rarer.

    We need a religious and socio cultural change so that white people think that supporting immigration is as abhorrent as being a pedophile or racist is today.


    Shooting up your local mosque or church is not gonna do that, neither is making edgy commentary at the dinner table.

    What actually needs to be done is being done and is unrelated to Sovok mutts who put AUS in their name but live in CRIMEA.

    Replies: @peterAUS

  296. German_reader says:
    @peterAUS
    @Thorfinnsson

    Don't think so.
    Depends what you want. "Debating" or..something else.

    Tell me something: is there anything/anyone you tend to ignore? Vegans, lesbians...? Libtards? People who hate guns? People who can't stand violence? You really don't mind spending your time given on this planet to interact with them? Really?

    If you can choose between ..ahm...discussig anything with them and something else, say....fishing...reading/watching something you like....gym work...etc...what would you choose?

    About half of people commenting here are, fundamentally, ideological enemies, at this stage.
    The rest...among those there are, IMHO, less than 10 % who are some sort of thinkers. 40% are....white noise.

    So....why would you want to spend your time...effort...energy on those 50 %, even those 40%?
    You have plenty of time and energy. Good for you. You sure?

    Aren't we in the phase where we should focus ourselves? Use our time, energy and effort better?

    Or...not?

    I know what "cuskservatives" want there.
    I don't.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @German_reader

    among those there are, IMHO, less than 10 % who are some sort of thinkers.

    Well, you certainly aren’t one, you’re a total retard who writes nothing but low-value comments about how tough he is and how other commenters are weaklings for not following up on your constant insinuations about violent methods. Again: anyone who writes such things on the net is either a clueless moron (who might eventually have his door kicked down and his premises searched by police for ineffectual net nonsense) or he pursues some other agenda.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @German_reader


    anyone who writes such things on the net is either a clueless moron (who might eventually have his door kicked down and his premises searched by police for ineffectual net nonsense) or he pursues some other agenda.
     
    This.
    , @utu
    @German_reader

    Are you suggesting that we all should join Jaroslav Hašek's Party of Moderate Progress Within the Bounds of the Law:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Party_of_Moderate_Progress_Within_the_Bounds_of_the_Law

    and at most follow the extreme acts of defiance and bravery demonstrated by reiner Tor who dared to challenge the system by taking a snapshot of Muslim man smoking on the non smoking train? But nothing beyond the iPhone snapshot direct action!

    The creature peterAUS never had a comment that was made in a good faith. He is a troll. Not much different than guys like iffen or the Wiz of Oz. Just ignore the fuck.

    It is interesting that on another thread just few days ago the most icky commenter on UR (Sean) was egging the truthers and anti-Israel commenters to prove they belief in their stuff by doing something about it like by assassinating Mr. Silverstein. Do Sean and peterAUS come from the same stable?

  297. @German_reader
    @peterAUS


    among those there are, IMHO, less than 10 % who are some sort of thinkers.
     
    Well, you certainly aren't one, you're a total retard who writes nothing but low-value comments about how tough he is and how other commenters are weaklings for not following up on your constant insinuations about violent methods. Again: anyone who writes such things on the net is either a clueless moron (who might eventually have his door kicked down and his premises searched by police for ineffectual net nonsense) or he pursues some other agenda.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @utu

    anyone who writes such things on the net is either a clueless moron (who might eventually have his door kicked down and his premises searched by police for ineffectual net nonsense) or he pursues some other agenda.

    This.

  298. @Thorfinnsson
    @peterAUS

    There's a difference between using the scroll wheel, page down, or end key vs. deliberately hiding people's comments.

    Replies: @peterAUS

    Two easons I skim articles on this site and, more importantly, comments. Hehe…those I can see, that is.

    First, less important, to get a bit of information here and there. Rare, but worth skimming. Local people and/or experts in certain fields.

    Second, really important,watching to see a rudimentary idea of “our” think tank coming out, somehow, SOMEWHERE. That one for a couple of sub=reasons.
    I guess I make sense. For those 5% around, that is. The rest simply don’t matter.

  299. @German_reader
    @peterAUS


    among those there are, IMHO, less than 10 % who are some sort of thinkers.
     
    Well, you certainly aren't one, you're a total retard who writes nothing but low-value comments about how tough he is and how other commenters are weaklings for not following up on your constant insinuations about violent methods. Again: anyone who writes such things on the net is either a clueless moron (who might eventually have his door kicked down and his premises searched by police for ineffectual net nonsense) or he pursues some other agenda.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @utu

    Are you suggesting that we all should join Jaroslav Hašek’s Party of Moderate Progress Within the Bounds of the Law:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Party_of_Moderate_Progress_Within_the_Bounds_of_the_Law

    and at most follow the extreme acts of defiance and bravery demonstrated by reiner Tor who dared to challenge the system by taking a snapshot of Muslim man smoking on the non smoking train? But nothing beyond the iPhone snapshot direct action!

    The creature peterAUS never had a comment that was made in a good faith. He is a troll. Not much different than guys like iffen or the Wiz of Oz. Just ignore the fuck.

    It is interesting that on another thread just few days ago the most icky commenter on UR (Sean) was egging the truthers and anti-Israel commenters to prove they belief in their stuff by doing something about it like by assassinating Mr. Silverstein. Do Sean and peterAUS come from the same stable?

    • LOL: reiner Tor
  300. I don’t know if this is interesting – probably not – but Slovakia is the only country in the entire white world in which “[c]ousin marriage is legal, or has vague legality, or occurs in greater than 10% of the population”.

    Source

    The relatively high rates of cousin marriage (5 to 10%) in some western European countries is due to “ethnic or religious enclaves”. Slovakia doesn’t have these beyond the 2% (maybe higher?) of the population that is Romani.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @Matra

    Their Gypsy population is at least 5-10%, probably, similar to Hungary.

    , @German_reader
    @Matra

    Maybe it only refers to the legal status of cousin marriage in Slovakia, not to the actual prevalence of it ("is legal...or occurs", not "and").
    I wonder though how accurate that map is, as far as I know cousin marriage is completely legal in Germany (not just "illegal, but not enforced"), though it certainly would be considered strange and disgusting by many people.

    Replies: @Anonymoose, @Matra

    , @Logan
    @Matra

    Uhh, first-cousin marriage (which is what I assume you're referring to) is legal in about 50% of US states.

    Replies: @RadicalCenter

  301. @Matra
    I don't know if this is interesting - probably not - but Slovakia is the only country in the entire white world in which "[c]ousin marriage is legal, or has vague legality, or occurs in greater than 10% of the population".

    Source

    The relatively high rates of cousin marriage (5 to 10%) in some western European countries is due to "ethnic or religious enclaves". Slovakia doesn't have these beyond the 2% (maybe higher?) of the population that is Romani.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @German_reader, @Logan

    Their Gypsy population is at least 5-10%, probably, similar to Hungary.

  302. @AP
    @Brutis

    You have a strange preoccupation with cocks and Anglos. As an English-speaking Indian what does this say about your personal experiences?

    Replies: @Brutis

    You’re a Khohol I’m Saka.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Brutis

    So you are a central Asian? LOL.

    Replies: @Anonymoose, @Brutis

  303. @peterAUS
    Re "cowards".

    People who can, ad nauseam, regurgitate "what's wrong". That's for that 45 % here who do think something is wrong about the paradigm. 50% are more than happy with it, of course. Cowards are
    those who lack the moral fibre to think about SOLUTIONS.

    Those 5 % is what, IMHO, this site is all about. For now, because the ...haha..."moderation" will increase. That thread about "Guns" as a good example.

    We....do...not...have...time....to...fuck....around......anymore.

    In the real world, politics and power play, time and timing are the most important.

    And...we are wasting ours, IMHO. Well, those 50 % that is.
    Understandable.

    Just saw that "scroll wheel, page down, or end key". Funny. You use software to do the dumb work for you.
    Hehe...you don't manually guide a missile anymore. Or aim a cannon. You let the processor and program do it for you. Etc. The principle.
    I am actually contemplating writing a script to, using certain algorithms, recognize "cuckservatives" on this site. Just a local Javascript plugin.
    Anyway....

    Replies: @Brutis

    Stfu with your cryptic bull shit.

    Stop acting like everyone is a coward when most people would answer a general mobilization.

    Yes the ability to act alone is rare and to act and get away rarer.

    We need a religious and socio cultural change so that white people think that supporting immigration is as abhorrent as being a pedophile or racist is today.

    Shooting up your local mosque or church is not gonna do that, neither is making edgy commentary at the dinner table.

    What actually needs to be done is being done and is unrelated to Sovok mutts who put AUS in their name but live in CRIMEA.

    • Replies: @peterAUS
    @Brutis


    ...Sovok mutts who put AUS in their name but live in CRIMEA.
     
    Clap..clap...clap.....
    Perceptive, sharp.....hehe.......

    Good news is: won't put you on ignore. Forgot to mention, in that percentage thing re this pub, a small, but a quite interesting group of posters. I do like reading their posts. Similar to yours.

    Keeps me on my toes when walking around the neighborhood at night.

    Posting on this site demands more than living in an average neighborhood. Hence, more people of your type are likely to live around my place. Perceptive, sharp.....elementary social intelligence. Intelligence in general, too. I mean...

    ....Stfu with your cryptic bull shit...
     
    Cryptic"?...Hahaha...Oh my. Does it hurt? Headaches when reading such stuff?

    Now, actually, you got me worried a bit. The combination of your..ahm...mental abilities.... and mentioning

    ...Shooting up your local mosque or church..
     
    Fear not.
    The "monitors" just got you in the system.

    All good.
  304. @AP
    @AnonFromTN

    I think that many more collaborators stayed behind than fled. Putin’s best friend in Ukraine is the son of one of them:

    Medvedchuk's father, Volodymyr Medvedchuk, avoided being drafted into the Red Army during the Great Patriotic War due to his suffering from Pott disease. During Nazi Germany's occupation of Ukraine, he worked for the German administration in a labor camp from April 1942 to November 1943. The section provided enforced deportation of the local able-bodied Ukrainian youth to work in Nazi Germany. After the retreat of German forces Volodymyr Medvedchuk was arrested by SMERSH on 7 August 1954 and sentenced to eight years of imprisonment and four of exile in Siberia "for participation in Ukrainian nationalistic activities." Viktor was born in Pochet, Krasnoyarsk Krai, Russian SFSR.

    ::::::::::

    Most of the concentration camp guards were captured Sovok soldiers. Collaborationist and Sovietism went hand in hand.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN, @AnonFromTN

    Yea, I never thought that I would fault Stalin for being to soft, but here it is. He should have exterminated every single traitor who worked for the Nazis, rather than sending them to camps from which they eventually returned.

    It was a good thing that after the Nazis were kicked out of many towns by the Red Army the NKVD troops arrived “late”, a few days after the liberation. I suspect it was done on purpose, to let locals hang their collaborators (which they did) and relieve the state from spending resources on court proceedings, transporting the scum to camps, and then feeding the vermin there for years.

    • Replies: @AP
    @AnonFromTN


    He should have exterminated every single traitor who worked for the Nazis, rather than sending them to camps from which they eventually returned.
     
    But then Ukraine wouldn't have its most pro-Russian politician :-)

    It was a good thing that after the Nazis were kicked out of many towns by the Red Army the NKVD troops arrived “late”, a few days after the liberation. I suspect it was done on purpose, to let locals hang their collaborators (which they did)
     
    Many of the Nazi collaborators had previously been Sovok ones, who had managed to escape being hanged right after the Nazis came in by people who hated Sovoks.

    Anyways, there is a difference between cooperation and collaboration. Vlasov was a collaborator; people like Pyotr Krasnov were not (nevermind what wiki says about him).

    Replies: @Mikhail, @Gerard1234

  305. @Brutis
    @peterAUS

    Stfu with your cryptic bull shit.

    Stop acting like everyone is a coward when most people would answer a general mobilization.

    Yes the ability to act alone is rare and to act and get away rarer.

    We need a religious and socio cultural change so that white people think that supporting immigration is as abhorrent as being a pedophile or racist is today.


    Shooting up your local mosque or church is not gonna do that, neither is making edgy commentary at the dinner table.

    What actually needs to be done is being done and is unrelated to Sovok mutts who put AUS in their name but live in CRIMEA.

    Replies: @peterAUS

    …Sovok mutts who put AUS in their name but live in CRIMEA.

    Clap..clap…clap…..
    Perceptive, sharp…..hehe…….

    Good news is: won’t put you on ignore. Forgot to mention, in that percentage thing re this pub, a small, but a quite interesting group of posters. I do like reading their posts. Similar to yours.

    Keeps me on my toes when walking around the neighborhood at night.

    Posting on this site demands more than living in an average neighborhood. Hence, more people of your type are likely to live around my place. Perceptive, sharp…..elementary social intelligence. Intelligence in general, too. I mean…

    ….Stfu with your cryptic bull shit…

    Cryptic”?…Hahaha…Oh my. Does it hurt? Headaches when reading such stuff?

    Now, actually, you got me worried a bit. The combination of your..ahm…mental abilities…. and mentioning

    …Shooting up your local mosque or church..

    Fear not.
    The “monitors” just got you in the system.

    All good.

  306. I just want to say how impressed I am with Reiner Tor, German Reader, and Thorfinsson on this thread for being such balanced, mature, sensible, prudent, cautious, realistic, and adult men in their attitude towards violence.

    It is heartwarming to see the qualities that made the West great still exist.

  307. German_reader says:
    @Matra
    I don't know if this is interesting - probably not - but Slovakia is the only country in the entire white world in which "[c]ousin marriage is legal, or has vague legality, or occurs in greater than 10% of the population".

    Source

    The relatively high rates of cousin marriage (5 to 10%) in some western European countries is due to "ethnic or religious enclaves". Slovakia doesn't have these beyond the 2% (maybe higher?) of the population that is Romani.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @German_reader, @Logan

    Maybe it only refers to the legal status of cousin marriage in Slovakia, not to the actual prevalence of it (“is legal…or occurs”, not “and“).
    I wonder though how accurate that map is, as far as I know cousin marriage is completely legal in Germany (not just “illegal, but not enforced”), though it certainly would be considered strange and disgusting by many people.

    • Replies: @Anonymoose
    @German_reader

    What percentage of cousin marriages do immigrants account for in Germany? I see Germany is listed as yellow non that map. Also what regions is it more prevalent?

    https://hbdchick.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/france-consanguineous-marriages-roman-catholics-1926-1945.jpg

    Here is map I found of France about cousin marriages.

    Replies: @German_reader

    , @Matra
    @German_reader

    Maybe it only refers to the legal status of cousin marriage in Slovakia, not to the actual prevalence of it (“is legal…or occurs”, not “and“)

    I agree, it is not clear at all. But if, as reiner Tor says above, the Gypsy population is between 5-10% of Slovakia then I guess it is also reasonable to assume that they are probably a higher percentage of Slovakia's young marriage age population. So more than 10% cousin marriage rate seems believable, and presumably Hungary will be going the same way soon.

  308. @German_reader
    @Matra

    Maybe it only refers to the legal status of cousin marriage in Slovakia, not to the actual prevalence of it ("is legal...or occurs", not "and").
    I wonder though how accurate that map is, as far as I know cousin marriage is completely legal in Germany (not just "illegal, but not enforced"), though it certainly would be considered strange and disgusting by many people.

    Replies: @Anonymoose, @Matra

    What percentage of cousin marriages do immigrants account for in Germany? I see Germany is listed as yellow non that map. Also what regions is it more prevalent?

    Here is map I found of France about cousin marriages.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Anonymoose


    What percentage of cousin marriages do immigrants account for in Germany?
     
    No idea (don't know if data for that exists), but I suppose the vast majority is Turks, Kurds and other Muslims. As I wrote it's legal, but would definitely be seen as weird and repellent by most ethnic Germans.
  309. @Matra
    I don't know if this is interesting - probably not - but Slovakia is the only country in the entire white world in which "[c]ousin marriage is legal, or has vague legality, or occurs in greater than 10% of the population".

    Source

    The relatively high rates of cousin marriage (5 to 10%) in some western European countries is due to "ethnic or religious enclaves". Slovakia doesn't have these beyond the 2% (maybe higher?) of the population that is Romani.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @German_reader, @Logan

    Uhh, first-cousin marriage (which is what I assume you’re referring to) is legal in about 50% of US states.

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
    @Logan

    You’re right. Seems like more than half. Three of our four most populous States allow this disgusting and unhealthy practice: #1 California, #3 Florida, and #4 New York, as well as other populous States like #11 New Jersey.

    There’s no way we should be allowing people to marry their first cousins, nor admitting any immigrant couple whose blood/saliva tests show that they are first cousins. In addition to the moral issue, we have far too many laws and mores encouraging dysgenic reproduction already — I.e. of less intelligent, less productive, more violent or volatile people.

    West Virginia has long taken flam and condescending jokes about being inbred. But WVA doesn’t allow first cousins to marry. Good for them.

    Replies: @RadicalCenter

  310. German_reader says:
    @Anonymoose
    @German_reader

    What percentage of cousin marriages do immigrants account for in Germany? I see Germany is listed as yellow non that map. Also what regions is it more prevalent?

    https://hbdchick.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/france-consanguineous-marriages-roman-catholics-1926-1945.jpg

    Here is map I found of France about cousin marriages.

    Replies: @German_reader

    What percentage of cousin marriages do immigrants account for in Germany?

    No idea (don’t know if data for that exists), but I suppose the vast majority is Turks, Kurds and other Muslims. As I wrote it’s legal, but would definitely be seen as weird and repellent by most ethnic Germans.

  311. @German_reader
    @Matra

    Maybe it only refers to the legal status of cousin marriage in Slovakia, not to the actual prevalence of it ("is legal...or occurs", not "and").
    I wonder though how accurate that map is, as far as I know cousin marriage is completely legal in Germany (not just "illegal, but not enforced"), though it certainly would be considered strange and disgusting by many people.

    Replies: @Anonymoose, @Matra

    Maybe it only refers to the legal status of cousin marriage in Slovakia, not to the actual prevalence of it (“is legal…or occurs”, not “and“)

    I agree, it is not clear at all. But if, as reiner Tor says above, the Gypsy population is between 5-10% of Slovakia then I guess it is also reasonable to assume that they are probably a higher percentage of Slovakia’s young marriage age population. So more than 10% cousin marriage rate seems believable, and presumably Hungary will be going the same way soon.

  312. @German_reader
    @AP


    Although elites have throughout history practiced polygamy, most human relationships across cultures have been monogamous
     
    That goes without saying that most relationships have been monogamous, since only the most successful men could afford maintaining several women and since the number of women was finite and could only be expanded through high-risk activities like war. But I don't think there is any inherent disposition in men against polygamy, it clearly has been attractive in many societies for high-status men.
    Obviously costs and benefits for women are rather different. For a woman it's of course beneficial if she and her offspring can monopolize a man's resources.

    This is even reflected in human sexual organ physiology
     
    How so?

    Replies: @AP

    That goes without saying that most relationships have been monogamous, since only the most successful men could afford maintaining several women and since the number of women was finite and could only be expanded through high-risk activities like war. But I don’t think there is any inherent disposition in men against polygamy, it clearly has been attractive in many societies for high-status men.

    Humans evolved to be basically monogamous but in certain circumstances they can be not so.

    This is even reflected in human sexual organ physiology

    How so?

    Everything you ever wanted to know about primate genitals and monogamy (“Brutis” will be overjoyed reading this article):

    http://theconversation.com/why-did-humans-evolve-big-penises-but-small-testicles-71652

  313. @Brutis
    @AP

    You're a Khohol I'm Saka.

    Replies: @AP

    So you are a central Asian? LOL.

    • Replies: @Anonymoose
    @AP

    He is a proud descendant of the adronovo and karasuk cultures

    , @Brutis
    @AP

    Fk no.

    https://youtu.be/OX-o1VUxOY0
    https://youtu.be/EwlJ6hgmAIY

    BTW, our Sixth Guru Sahib had a shield of Seal Skin from the Rus. Ty, 🙏

    I came to this blog supporting Russia, as they have our allies and are blood relatives.

    As time goes, while I have sympathy for S Russia & our people around the Urals I have great sympathy for the Ukraine.

    Their struggle is similar to our's.

    I do feel the Russian nuclear deterrent is the only reason America has not been able to unleash the negro battalions more broadly but I will let the God's decide this battle and fight where my passions take me.

    This is allowed in Sikhi,

    https://web.archive.org/web/20170404132933/http://www.manglacharan.com/manglacharan/2016/1/11/the-merit-of-being-of-warrior-from-dasam-and-sarbloh-granth

    ਪਰੀਯੈਨਹੀਆਨਕੇਪਾਇਨਪੈਹਰਿਕੇਗੁਰਕੇਦਿਜਕੇਪਰੀਯੈ॥ਜਿਹਕੋਜੁਗਚਾਰਮੈਨਾਉਜਪੈਤਿਹਸੋਲਰੀਯੈਮਰੀਯੈਤਰੀਯੈ॥੧੬੮੮॥
    Seek not anyone's feet but those of Hari, the Guru, and Brahmins. He whose name is recited through the ੪ ages, against Him by fighting and dying one is carried across.
    — Krishnavatar, verse ੧੬੮੮

    We ask only that you refrain from slaughter of the Dairy Cow as did your ancestors.

    Once you are done your brothers' wars feel free to join us in Wiping the Turk off the Face of the Earth।।

    Such is the wish of the Tenth Master.

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾ।।ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ।।

    https://i.imgur.com/Mf6JCHg.jpg

    Replies: @AP

  314. @Mr. Hack
    @TheTotallyAnonymous

    I'm one of those "khokhols" that you seem to loathe, however, I find your rendition of Serbian history quite interesting and look forward to AP's rebuttal. Any one or two Serbian history books that you could recommend in the English language would be appreciated.

    Replies: @AP

    His post is like some nonsense Ukrainian nationalists sometimes write, but even more over the top.

    Epigon’s excellent reply is sufficient. This gem stands out:

    By the way, in modern Serbia before WW1, Serbia was actually more economically prosperous than Switzerland as it was a well known phenomenon that Swiss guest workers, notably maids, would come to work in Serbia for money from wealthy families

    I mean, there were also French tutors in Russia in the 19th century, this doesn’t mean Russia was more prosperous than France at that time.

    In 1890 Serbia’s per capita product in 2010 dollars was $1,295. In Russia it was $1,550, in Bulgaria $1,670. In Galicia it was $1,947. In Bohemia $2,530, Austria $3,005, England $6,228.

    http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.361.386&rep=rep1&type=pdf

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @AP

    I'm not able to offer a judgement of the veracity of his views of history, although I have left the door open for him to provide some background reading to substantiate his views - he seems to have vanished?...Epigon certainly seems to know the territory, though.

    You know AP, there's a concensus out there amongst many historians that language affinity is just as important as actual genetic markers when trying to define a nationality. A lot of Ukrainians like to point out that Great Russians are also a kind of an erzats sort of Slav nation too. A finno-ugric sub base covered with a Slavic language veneer. Of course there seems to be a lot more "pure" Slavic DNA within Russia today. How many "Little Russians" have assimilated into the large Russian nation over the centuries, any guess? I would guess tens of millions, and I wouldn't be too far off, a lot more than in the 12th-14th centuries when the Great Russian ethnos first evolved.

    Replies: @AP, @Mikhail, @TheTotallyAnonymous

  315. @AnonFromTN
    @AP

    Yea, I never thought that I would fault Stalin for being to soft, but here it is. He should have exterminated every single traitor who worked for the Nazis, rather than sending them to camps from which they eventually returned.

    It was a good thing that after the Nazis were kicked out of many towns by the Red Army the NKVD troops arrived “late”, a few days after the liberation. I suspect it was done on purpose, to let locals hang their collaborators (which they did) and relieve the state from spending resources on court proceedings, transporting the scum to camps, and then feeding the vermin there for years.

    Replies: @AP

    He should have exterminated every single traitor who worked for the Nazis, rather than sending them to camps from which they eventually returned.

    But then Ukraine wouldn’t have its most pro-Russian politician 🙂

    It was a good thing that after the Nazis were kicked out of many towns by the Red Army the NKVD troops arrived “late”, a few days after the liberation. I suspect it was done on purpose, to let locals hang their collaborators (which they did)

    Many of the Nazi collaborators had previously been Sovok ones, who had managed to escape being hanged right after the Nazis came in by people who hated Sovoks.

    Anyways, there is a difference between cooperation and collaboration. Vlasov was a collaborator; people like Pyotr Krasnov were not (nevermind what wiki says about him).

    • Replies: @Mikhail
    @AP


    Anyways, there is a difference between cooperation and collaboration. Vlasov was a collaborator; people like Pyotr Krasnov were not (nevermind what wiki says about him)
     
    Asked with some trepidation, how so? Vlasov's forces eventually ended up fighting the Nazis.

    Replies: @AP

    , @Gerard1234
    @AP


    But then Ukraine wouldn’t have its most pro-Russian politician
     
    hahahahaha!! - seeing as a whole flood of these collaborationist scum and their families fully bought into the Communist system and went very far in the hierarchy of that system over the next 50 years.......your moronic thinking is showing no signs of improvement . Pretty much all the major "anti-Russian" politicians have even more reason than Medvedchuk to be pro-Russian for reasons of how they got their wealth, cultural or their own family. Even most of the main dickheads in that "Svoboda " party of this hyprocrisy you idiot/ The only person more Soviet , more hyprocritcally anti-Russian would be the KGB dyke bitch Grybauskaite, former President of Lithuania


    Many of the Nazi collaborators had previously been Sovok ones
     
    ..errr no you misdirecting cunt - the Nazi collaborators then switch over to the Soviet side you idiot...turncoats. Pretty much the most dishonourable, contemptible vermin in the whole of WW2

    Anyways, there is a difference between cooperation and collaboration. Vlasov was a collaborator; people like Pyotr Krasnov were not (nevermind what wiki says about him)
     
    Idiotic comparison...and idiotic sentence
  316. @AP
    @AnonFromTN

    I think that many more collaborators stayed behind than fled. Putin’s best friend in Ukraine is the son of one of them:

    Medvedchuk's father, Volodymyr Medvedchuk, avoided being drafted into the Red Army during the Great Patriotic War due to his suffering from Pott disease. During Nazi Germany's occupation of Ukraine, he worked for the German administration in a labor camp from April 1942 to November 1943. The section provided enforced deportation of the local able-bodied Ukrainian youth to work in Nazi Germany. After the retreat of German forces Volodymyr Medvedchuk was arrested by SMERSH on 7 August 1954 and sentenced to eight years of imprisonment and four of exile in Siberia "for participation in Ukrainian nationalistic activities." Viktor was born in Pochet, Krasnoyarsk Krai, Russian SFSR.

    ::::::::::

    Most of the concentration camp guards were captured Sovok soldiers. Collaborationist and Sovietism went hand in hand.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN, @AnonFromTN

    Collaborationist and Sovietism went hand in hand.

    In that case, how do you explain that France and many other “democratic” countries readily folded and submitted to Nazi occupation? In contrast, Soviet Union did not fold, and crushed Nazi Germany in the end. If your assertion were true, it would have been the other way around. From which it follows that your statement is utter BS.

    • Replies: @utu
    @AnonFromTN


    "In that case, how do you explain that France and many other “democratic” countries readily folded..."
     
    Partly because of Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact that made all communist potential resistance in Europe to collaborate with Nazis till June 22, 1941. Resisting Germans in 1940 was very anti-Soviet and by extension anti-Russian since you all Sovoks keep conflating Russian and Soviet.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

    , @AP
    @AnonFromTN


    In that case, how do you explain that France and many other “democratic” countries readily folded and submitted to Nazi occupation? In contrast, Soviet Union did not fold,
     
    Soviet Union also folded badly and quickly, it just had more room. If Paris were as far from the German border as Moscow and there were as many Frenchmen as Soviets, France might also not have "folded." How many Soviet soldiers surrendered in the first months, rather than fight?
    , @Mikhail
    @AnonFromTN

    Then again, Germany was willing to nominally recognize France with a Vichy administration, somewhat along the lines of Romania, Hungary, Slovakia, Croatia and Bulgaria.

    As a contrast, for much of his time in captivity, Vlasov's army was pretty much a shelved pending project on account of numerous Nazis being suspect and/or openly hostile towards the existence of any kind of Russia.

    , @reiner Tor
    @AnonFromTN

    The USSR was big, and the Soviet citizens numerous, so could afford to lose even more catastrophic losses than France. More Soviet soldiers fell into German captivity in the first few months of the war than even existed in the French army. Within three months the Germans captured an area almost twice as large as France, despite the logistics being way more difficult and distances larger than in France.

    Being big is a big advantage in war, but it’s not a virtue.

    Replies: @neutral, @AnonFromTN

  317. @AP
    @Brutis

    So you are a central Asian? LOL.

    Replies: @Anonymoose, @Brutis

    He is a proud descendant of the adronovo and karasuk cultures

  318. @AnonFromTN
    @AP


    Collaborationist and Sovietism went hand in hand.
     
    In that case, how do you explain that France and many other “democratic” countries readily folded and submitted to Nazi occupation? In contrast, Soviet Union did not fold, and crushed Nazi Germany in the end. If your assertion were true, it would have been the other way around. From which it follows that your statement is utter BS.

    Replies: @utu, @AP, @Mikhail, @reiner Tor

    “In that case, how do you explain that France and many other “democratic” countries readily folded…”

    Partly because of Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact that made all communist potential resistance in Europe to collaborate with Nazis till June 22, 1941. Resisting Germans in 1940 was very anti-Soviet and by extension anti-Russian since you all Sovoks keep conflating Russian and Soviet.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    @utu

    Are you serious? In plain English you are saying that w/o communist resistance “democracies” inevitably fold before Nazis. That’s the highest praise for commies I’ve ever heard in my life.

  319. @TheTotallyAnonymous
    @TheTotallyAnonymous



    Oh, by the way, Saint Elliot did nothing wrong!


    https://pixel.nymag.com/imgs/fashion/daily/2018/04/27/27-elliot-rodger.nocrop.w710.h2147483647.jpg

    https://www.yourtango.com/sites/default/files/styles/body_image_default/public/2016%20Oct/rodger%20screenshot%20crop.jpg

    https://external-preview.redd.it/XUuoAsrRpJFeYlJA2Fdv_pRUWKleKuqkbiD1Uj5hQBk.jpg?auto=webp&s=9615218acf323ea838ea202ae73ae2f393c2072d

    https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/1046199550216556546/t9-qJ_JA_400x400.jpg

    https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/BAF7/production/_101036874_elliot_rodger_shutterstock.jpg

    https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/70BF/production/_101036882_elliot_rodger_2_shutterstoc.jpg

    Replies: @Anonymoose

  320. @utu
    @AnonFromTN


    "In that case, how do you explain that France and many other “democratic” countries readily folded..."
     
    Partly because of Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact that made all communist potential resistance in Europe to collaborate with Nazis till June 22, 1941. Resisting Germans in 1940 was very anti-Soviet and by extension anti-Russian since you all Sovoks keep conflating Russian and Soviet.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

    Are you serious? In plain English you are saying that w/o communist resistance “democracies” inevitably fold before Nazis. That’s the highest praise for commies I’ve ever heard in my life.

  321. @AP
    @Mr. Hack

    His post is like some nonsense Ukrainian nationalists sometimes write, but even more over the top.

    Epigon's excellent reply is sufficient. This gem stands out:


    By the way, in modern Serbia before WW1, Serbia was actually more economically prosperous than Switzerland as it was a well known phenomenon that Swiss guest workers, notably maids, would come to work in Serbia for money from wealthy families
     
    I mean, there were also French tutors in Russia in the 19th century, this doesn't mean Russia was more prosperous than France at that time.

    In 1890 Serbia's per capita product in 2010 dollars was $1,295. In Russia it was $1,550, in Bulgaria $1,670. In Galicia it was $1,947. In Bohemia $2,530, Austria $3,005, England $6,228.

    http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.361.386&rep=rep1&type=pdf

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    I’m not able to offer a judgement of the veracity of his views of history, although I have left the door open for him to provide some background reading to substantiate his views – he seems to have vanished?…Epigon certainly seems to know the territory, though.

    You know AP, there’s a concensus out there amongst many historians that language affinity is just as important as actual genetic markers when trying to define a nationality. A lot of Ukrainians like to point out that Great Russians are also a kind of an erzats sort of Slav nation too. A finno-ugric sub base covered with a Slavic language veneer. Of course there seems to be a lot more “pure” Slavic DNA within Russia today. How many “Little Russians” have assimilated into the large Russian nation over the centuries, any guess? I would guess tens of millions, and I wouldn’t be too far off, a lot more than in the 12th-14th centuries when the Great Russian ethnos first evolved.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Mr. Hack


    You know AP, there’s a concensus out there amongst many historians that language affinity is just as important as actual genetic markers when trying to define a nationality.
     
    So Mike Tyson is basically an Englishman?

    I have no doubt that a Serb belongs to the Serb nationality. The question is if this makes him a Slav, rather than a Balkan. It does not.

    A lot of Ukrainians like to point out that Great Russians are also a kind of an erzats sort of Slav nation too. A finno-ugric sub base covered with a Slavic language veneer.
     
    Genetics has laid this false myth to rest (at least with respect to southern and central Russians who are as Slavic as Ukrainians - northern Russians are indeed mostly Finnic rather than Slavic). It also shows that Serbs are only about 25% Slavic by descent.

    Of course there seems to be a lot more “pure” Slavic DNA within Russia today. How many “Little Russians” have assimilated into the large Russian nation over the centuries, any guess? I would guess tens of millions, and I wouldn’t be too far off, a lot more than in the 12th-14th centuries when the Great Russian ethnos first evolved.
     
    A clever and probably realistic point. It is likely that in the 12th-14th century "Russians" (people from tVladimir-Suzdal) were less Slavic than they have been since Little Russians settled among them. Probably not as much as you think however - Russians from places without documented Ukrainian settlement are also rather Slavic. Also I doubt tens of millions of Ukrainians settled in Russia. In 1600 Russia had 14 million people. Poland-Lithuania had 8 million, so Ukraine itself probably had no more than 3 million (I don't have time to look up this figure).

    But Little Russian/Ukrainian settlement probably made some sort of difference.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Mr. Hack

    , @Mikhail
    @Mr. Hack


    Of course there seems to be a lot more “pure” Slavic DNA within Russia today. How many “Little Russians” have assimilated into the large Russian nation over the centuries, any guess? I would guess tens of millions, and I wouldn’t be too far off, a lot more than in the 12th-14th centuries when the Great Russian ethnos first evolved.
     
    For that matter, over the course of time, how many "Great Russians" and "White Russians" have assimilated into the territory now known as Ukraine?

    As for another issue raised, it seems like every predominately designated Slav nation has traces of non-Slav groups. The difference is in types (Turkic, German, Finn-Ugric, Mongol...) and percentages. Some here like to post pictures of a random group of 20 or less as an ah hah, they look like... Plenty of Serbs and Bulgarians look Russian and are frequently mistaken as such by some in the West.
    , @TheTotallyAnonymous
    @Mr. Hack


    I’m not able to offer a judgement of the veracity of his views of history, although I have left the door open for him to provide some background reading to substantiate his views – he seems to have vanished?
     
    Well, this forum isn't the center of my life, as it is, I waste too much time here anyway.

    however, I find your rendition of Serbian history quite interesting and look forward to AP’s rebuttal. Any one or two Serbian history books that you could recommend in the English language would be appreciated.

     

    Well, there is a lot I could recommend, since Serbian history is quite a rich thing, but one of my most basic recommendations would simply be to read the works of Petar II Petrovic-Njegos who was a Serb Patriarch but also ruler of Montenegro (de facto Serbian) in the 19th century. That is, read the translations in English of course. Mountain Wreath is probably his most famous work and I honestly haven't bothered to fully read it (I've been meaning to get around to that sometime), but I find Njegos's work "Voice of the Kamenstak" (Глас Каменштака) to be my favorite since it is Njegos's literary description of all the battles and fights that the Montenegrin Serbs fought against the Turks/Muslims from 1711-1813. English translations of these things aren't exactly the easiest to come by, but I know that they exist.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  322. @Mr. Hack
    @AP

    I'm not able to offer a judgement of the veracity of his views of history, although I have left the door open for him to provide some background reading to substantiate his views - he seems to have vanished?...Epigon certainly seems to know the territory, though.

    You know AP, there's a concensus out there amongst many historians that language affinity is just as important as actual genetic markers when trying to define a nationality. A lot of Ukrainians like to point out that Great Russians are also a kind of an erzats sort of Slav nation too. A finno-ugric sub base covered with a Slavic language veneer. Of course there seems to be a lot more "pure" Slavic DNA within Russia today. How many "Little Russians" have assimilated into the large Russian nation over the centuries, any guess? I would guess tens of millions, and I wouldn't be too far off, a lot more than in the 12th-14th centuries when the Great Russian ethnos first evolved.

    Replies: @AP, @Mikhail, @TheTotallyAnonymous

    You know AP, there’s a concensus out there amongst many historians that language affinity is just as important as actual genetic markers when trying to define a nationality.

    So Mike Tyson is basically an Englishman?

    I have no doubt that a Serb belongs to the Serb nationality. The question is if this makes him a Slav, rather than a Balkan. It does not.

    A lot of Ukrainians like to point out that Great Russians are also a kind of an erzats sort of Slav nation too. A finno-ugric sub base covered with a Slavic language veneer.

    Genetics has laid this false myth to rest (at least with respect to southern and central Russians who are as Slavic as Ukrainians – northern Russians are indeed mostly Finnic rather than Slavic). It also shows that Serbs are only about 25% Slavic by descent.

    Of course there seems to be a lot more “pure” Slavic DNA within Russia today. How many “Little Russians” have assimilated into the large Russian nation over the centuries, any guess? I would guess tens of millions, and I wouldn’t be too far off, a lot more than in the 12th-14th centuries when the Great Russian ethnos first evolved.

    A clever and probably realistic point. It is likely that in the 12th-14th century “Russians” (people from tVladimir-Suzdal) were less Slavic than they have been since Little Russians settled among them. Probably not as much as you think however – Russians from places without documented Ukrainian settlement are also rather Slavic. Also I doubt tens of millions of Ukrainians settled in Russia. In 1600 Russia had 14 million people. Poland-Lithuania had 8 million, so Ukraine itself probably had no more than 3 million (I don’t have time to look up this figure).

    But Little Russian/Ukrainian settlement probably made some sort of difference.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @AP


    Also I doubt tens of millions of Ukrainians settled in Russia. In 1600 Russia had 14 million people. Poland-Lithuania had 8 million, so Ukraine itself probably had no more than 3 million (I don’t have time to look up this figure).
     
    The process, however has been going on and increasing since 1600. After reading a good article on this topic within Wikipedia, I'd have to revise my estimate way down. There are today at least 4,000,000 people of Ukrainian descent living in Russia (it's gone way up since the Donbas war). Perhaps, this is a plus for Putin's Russia?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainians_in_Russia
    , @Mr. Hack
    @AP


    So Mike Tyson is basically an Englishman?
     
    No, Mike Tyson is an American. Is Dr. Oz (light skinned of Turkish descent) more an American than say Dr. Ben Carson of African descent? All would agree that the 20th century was the "American" one, yet one rarely hears about an American nationality. Does it really exist, or is it mostly a construct of citizenship stamped on somebody's passport?

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @AP

  323. @AP
    @AnonFromTN


    He should have exterminated every single traitor who worked for the Nazis, rather than sending them to camps from which they eventually returned.
     
    But then Ukraine wouldn't have its most pro-Russian politician :-)

    It was a good thing that after the Nazis were kicked out of many towns by the Red Army the NKVD troops arrived “late”, a few days after the liberation. I suspect it was done on purpose, to let locals hang their collaborators (which they did)
     
    Many of the Nazi collaborators had previously been Sovok ones, who had managed to escape being hanged right after the Nazis came in by people who hated Sovoks.

    Anyways, there is a difference between cooperation and collaboration. Vlasov was a collaborator; people like Pyotr Krasnov were not (nevermind what wiki says about him).

    Replies: @Mikhail, @Gerard1234

    Anyways, there is a difference between cooperation and collaboration. Vlasov was a collaborator; people like Pyotr Krasnov were not (nevermind what wiki says about him)

    Asked with some trepidation, how so? Vlasov’s forces eventually ended up fighting the Nazis.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Mikhail

    The definition of a collaborator is: "a person who cooperates traitorously with an enemy; a defector."

    Vlasov was a high-ranking Sovok general who switched sides after he was captured. He was a defector. The fact that he defected again after the Nazis whom he joined were losing just drives this point home further.

    Pyotr Krasnov, in contrast, never took Sovok citizenship and never recognized Bolshevik rule over Russia. He allied with the Germans not as a defector, and his alliance was therefore not a form of treason. Thus he was not a collaborator. He didn't meet the definition.

    Same thing with Bandera and the OUN. Bandera was a monster and terrorist, but his cooperation with Germany did not represent treason or defection. He was not a Soviet and never recognized Polish rule over Ukraine. Like Krasnov, he allied with the Germans, but this cannot be considered to be collaboration. OTOH, the Soviet POWs who worked in concentration camps to avoid starvation in the POW camps were collaborators.* As were the Sovok police who became German police.

    *This could be complicated however. Many of the Soviet POWS were conscripts forced to serve in the Soviet army. Soviet people who were forced to live under the Bolshevik yoke who welcomed the Germans cannot be considered collaborators. Here are examples:

    https://warontherocks.com/2018/08/fragile-loyalties-soviet-russians-between-hitler-and-stalin/

    " The upheavals of collectivization led to the famine of 1932–1933, which killed millions. Later, in 1937–1938, Stalin’s Great Terror swept the country. Mass arrests, deportations, and executions targeted all sorts of imagined and real enemies of the state, resulting in a million more deaths. The Stalinist regime, bent on cleansing the country of opponents and enemies, made itself the worst enemy of its own people.

    The regime’s war against the peasantry naturally generated hostility and resentment in the countryside. As one wartime inhabitant of northwest Russia later put it, “My forefathers were affluent peasants; the Bolsheviks turned them into beggars and slaves.” Such emotions fed rumors, recurring frequently throughout the 1930s, of a coming war in which the Bolsheviks would be crushed and the collective farms dissolved. When the actual invasion came, authorities and witnesses recorded utterances such as “Now I expect salvation only from Hitler,” “Now we will hang all your Communists, and our lives will become better,” and “The Germans will dissolve the cursed kolkhozes, and then we will have our own farms again.”

    Many Russian peasants invested their hopes in the German message of liberation from Bolshevism. This is why some took to writing letters of gratitude. Others, as documented in Soviet partisan reports, offered the Germans a traditional bread-and-salt welcome. In one district, peasants even organized a collection of Christmas gifts for German soldiers, delivering thousands of pairs of socks, gloves, and felt boots in what appeared to be a display of gratitude. German intelligence reporting on the popular mood tends to be consistent with these observations. As one official stated in December 1941 (see Figure 3), “The peasants, as well as most of the urban population, generally welcomed the downfall of Bolshevism or at least passively observed the events.” Other types of sources provide corroboration. Here, for instance, is a diary entry from Aug. 20, 1941, by Mariia Germanova, a rural schoolteacher: “Most of our populace are glad the Germans have arrived.”

    :::

    The German betrayal of the Soviet peoples' hopes was a tragedy but sadly in line with sick Nazi ideology.

    Replies: @Mikhail

  324. @AnonFromTN
    @AP


    Collaborationist and Sovietism went hand in hand.
     
    In that case, how do you explain that France and many other “democratic” countries readily folded and submitted to Nazi occupation? In contrast, Soviet Union did not fold, and crushed Nazi Germany in the end. If your assertion were true, it would have been the other way around. From which it follows that your statement is utter BS.

    Replies: @utu, @AP, @Mikhail, @reiner Tor

    In that case, how do you explain that France and many other “democratic” countries readily folded and submitted to Nazi occupation? In contrast, Soviet Union did not fold,

    Soviet Union also folded badly and quickly, it just had more room. If Paris were as far from the German border as Moscow and there were as many Frenchmen as Soviets, France might also not have “folded.” How many Soviet soldiers surrendered in the first months, rather than fight?

    • Agree: reiner Tor
  325. @AnonFromTN
    @AP


    Collaborationist and Sovietism went hand in hand.
     
    In that case, how do you explain that France and many other “democratic” countries readily folded and submitted to Nazi occupation? In contrast, Soviet Union did not fold, and crushed Nazi Germany in the end. If your assertion were true, it would have been the other way around. From which it follows that your statement is utter BS.

    Replies: @utu, @AP, @Mikhail, @reiner Tor

    Then again, Germany was willing to nominally recognize France with a Vichy administration, somewhat along the lines of Romania, Hungary, Slovakia, Croatia and Bulgaria.

    As a contrast, for much of his time in captivity, Vlasov’s army was pretty much a shelved pending project on account of numerous Nazis being suspect and/or openly hostile towards the existence of any kind of Russia.

  326. Anonymous[277] • Disclaimer says:
    @anonymous coward
    @Anonymous

    Pretty much everything you said is total bullshit.

    a) "Repression" (though it really isn't) of female sexuality is not a male thing, nor a patriarchy imperative. It's a female thing driven by females, to allow females access to stable homes and money-earning fathers for their children.

    b) The job of women isn't to "show off sexuality", their primary drive is to vet male suitors and practice eugenics for their kids. "Female sexuality" of the slutty form is a gender inversion where women started acting like men in the second half of the 20th century. It was invented and forced on women by lecherous men and perverted lesbians.

    c) Sluttiness and promiscuity never lead to high birth rates. The rule is that the more loose sex, the less babies are born. (See points a) and b) above for an explanation, it should be obvious.)

    d) The animal imperative of the human creature is monogamy, not promiscuity. Promiscuity only became possible in the 20th century via a massive overdose of poisonous chemicals and brainwashing propaganda. It's as far from natural as you can get while still on this Earth.

    Replies: @German_reader, @Anonymous

    Women who are sexually attractive (young, pretty, well proportioned) are going to show it off to the extent society allows them to (social norms have been historically dictated by men), because this is their reproductive value. Men too will try to show off whatever it is (strength, intelligence, social skills) that makes them a good mate . If you’ve got it, flaunt it. Your “rule” about loose sex doesn’t seem to be in evidence in much of the world, as promiscuous Africa has the highest birth rates of all and conservative East Asia the lowest.

    Monogamy is not the animal imperative of the human creature; it is simply an agreement in any given stable social group that we are not going to screw each other’s wives (even then, often honored more in the breach than the observance). Men throughout history have been perfectly happy–enthusiastic even–to fuck random women when they’re reasonably sure there won’t be repercussions for doing so. So you kill the (outgroup) men first, then you take their women. Whole nations (Iceland) were founded on this practice. Human beings in aggregate are closer to chimps than to your romantic fairytale notions.

    • Replies: @neutral
    @Anonymous


    loose sex doesn’t seem to be in evidence in much of the world, as promiscuous Africa has the highest birth rates of all
     
    Blacks in Africa do not have the same behaviour as in America. High birth rates in Africa have absolutely nothing to do with promiscuous behaviour.
  327. @Epigon
    @TheTotallyAnonymous

    Several issues. First of all, take the fork, prosperous pre-WW1 Kingdom of Serbia, Maritsa narrative nonsense and throw it in the garbage. I hate kool-aid history with a passion because very important facts and primary sources get overlooked while the focus shifts to fiction and fabrications.

    Medieval Serbia was sparsely populated and relied on Saxon miners, Ragusan trade, Germanic knights (an entire guard of them - Allemanic Guard), mercenaries from as far as Catalonia to succesfuly rival Bulgaria, Hungary, Byzantines and Venice. In fact, some areas were so sparsely populated that they were leased out to Ragusan republic for a yearly tribute - the Orthodox Serbs abandoned the lands under pressure from Italian/Papal missionaries and monks - those lands are present-day Croatia - Ston, Pelješac, Konavle, Korčula, Mljet.
    The Ottoman conquest of present-day Republic of Srpska, North Macedonia, Kosovo, and Greek Macedonia gave Ottomans several biggest gold and in particular silver mines, for example.
    Even in the crucial battle of Velbazhd, there were many foreign mercenaries (Catalonian band included) on Serbian side in an attempt to bolster inferior Serb numbers compared to Bulgarian ones. Almost half of Bulgarian army didn’t even engage in that battle because they were on their way, while the part which was defeated was roughly a match for victorious Serb one.

    Don’t engage in mythology, if you are truly interested in history, focus solely on preserved primary evidence, followed by secondary, contemporary sources. Modern historiography of medieval period consists of a ridiculous amount of wishful thinking and creative writing.

    The fateful Kosovo battle of 1389 saw less than 20 000 combatants on Serb side. The demographic losses sustained during it meant that Serbian vassal contingents which fought on Ottoman side at Rovine in 1395, Nicopolis 1396 and Angora in 1402 were relatively small and no Serbian resistance was even possible in the 1389 attle aftermath - there were not enough trained military age men left - and hence vassalhood was offered despite Ottomans not conquering the land.

    Don’t engage in mythology, if you are truly interested in history, focus solely on preserved primary evidence, followed by secondary, contemporary sources. Modern historiography of medieval period consists of a ridiculous amount of wishful thinking and creative writing.

    Arnaut tribes were part of Emperor/Tzar Dušan’s armies that conquered Epirus and came as far as Aetolia. In the aftermath of his death, (part) Serb aristocrats ruled over the small successor statelets in Aetolia, Epirus, Thessaly.

    Albania was first used to describe the present-day Albania in the beginning of 20th century. Dyrrachion, Epirus (despotate) etc. were historical terms
    What was called Albanian was Venetian province of Albania Veneta, corresponding roughly to medieval Zeta, which naturally included Shkodra/Skadar as its capital. Hoxha regime bulldozed all remains they could, as well as imposing mandatory names and surnames, banning all minorities from declaring themselves as anything but Albanians, banning any newspaper, jamming radio broadcasts from Yugoslavia etc.
    I believe only 2% of Albanians were literate at the end of 19th century. Austro-Hungary invested heavily into the creation of Albania from 1907 to 1913, culminating with Great Powers creating it at London Conference and selecting an Ottoman Pasha to rule over it.

    PS: Skenderbeg’s brother and father are buried at a Serb monastery Hilandar, dying as Serb Orthodox monks, his father was of distant Serb descent, while his mather was a 1/1 Serb - Voisava. His sibling’s names are indicative as well. There are preserved letters written by him and his father in Serbian Cyrillic.

    Replies: @peterAUS, @TheTotallyAnonymous

    Don’t engage in mythology, if you are truly interested in history, focus solely on preserved primary evidence, followed by secondary, contemporary sources. Modern historiography of medieval period consists of a ridiculous amount of wishful thinking and creative writing.

    Since you repeated this twice, this is obviously your most important message. The only problem is that analyzing primary evidence and secondary sources from contemporaries of the time is not easy since it requires, especially for the medieval ages, knowledge of Latin and Greek, and Old Slavonic as well. Of course, for some primary evidence technical-scientific understanding is also necessary for certain things and so on.

    I hate kool-aid history with a passion because very important facts and primary sources get overlooked while the focus shifts to fiction and fabrications.

    What do you define as”kool-aid” history?

    Since according to you, things like Vladimir Corovic’s “History of the Serbs” and “History of the Serbian people” must be completely unreliable garbage then? It’s true that his Yugoslav-ism is cancerous and that makes at least his early Medieval and 20th century version of history unreliable, of course.

    My only query then would be, what exactly is the version of Serbian Medieval history that you have understood? Some mediocre Balkan state with low population that did relatively well considering it’s low population and difficult geography? Did the Battle of Maritsa not happen since there is too little primary source evidence for it?

    Otherwise, yes, I was already aware of the Saxon miners, foreign mercenaries, and Catholicising efforts. Also, thanks for the information about the plain proof for Skanderberg’s Serb origin, more information about the fakeness of Albania and Hoxha’s suppression of Serb culture.

  328. @Mr. Hack
    @AP

    I'm not able to offer a judgement of the veracity of his views of history, although I have left the door open for him to provide some background reading to substantiate his views - he seems to have vanished?...Epigon certainly seems to know the territory, though.

    You know AP, there's a concensus out there amongst many historians that language affinity is just as important as actual genetic markers when trying to define a nationality. A lot of Ukrainians like to point out that Great Russians are also a kind of an erzats sort of Slav nation too. A finno-ugric sub base covered with a Slavic language veneer. Of course there seems to be a lot more "pure" Slavic DNA within Russia today. How many "Little Russians" have assimilated into the large Russian nation over the centuries, any guess? I would guess tens of millions, and I wouldn't be too far off, a lot more than in the 12th-14th centuries when the Great Russian ethnos first evolved.

    Replies: @AP, @Mikhail, @TheTotallyAnonymous

    Of course there seems to be a lot more “pure” Slavic DNA within Russia today. How many “Little Russians” have assimilated into the large Russian nation over the centuries, any guess? I would guess tens of millions, and I wouldn’t be too far off, a lot more than in the 12th-14th centuries when the Great Russian ethnos first evolved.

    For that matter, over the course of time, how many “Great Russians” and “White Russians” have assimilated into the territory now known as Ukraine?

    As for another issue raised, it seems like every predominately designated Slav nation has traces of non-Slav groups. The difference is in types (Turkic, German, Finn-Ugric, Mongol…) and percentages. Some here like to post pictures of a random group of 20 or less as an ah hah, they look like… Plenty of Serbs and Bulgarians look Russian and are frequently mistaken as such by some in the West.

  329. @Mikhail
    @AP


    Anyways, there is a difference between cooperation and collaboration. Vlasov was a collaborator; people like Pyotr Krasnov were not (nevermind what wiki says about him)
     
    Asked with some trepidation, how so? Vlasov's forces eventually ended up fighting the Nazis.

    Replies: @AP

    The definition of a collaborator is: “a person who cooperates traitorously with an enemy; a defector.”

    Vlasov was a high-ranking Sovok general who switched sides after he was captured. He was a defector. The fact that he defected again after the Nazis whom he joined were losing just drives this point home further.

    Pyotr Krasnov, in contrast, never took Sovok citizenship and never recognized Bolshevik rule over Russia. He allied with the Germans not as a defector, and his alliance was therefore not a form of treason. Thus he was not a collaborator. He didn’t meet the definition.

    Same thing with Bandera and the OUN. Bandera was a monster and terrorist, but his cooperation with Germany did not represent treason or defection. He was not a Soviet and never recognized Polish rule over Ukraine. Like Krasnov, he allied with the Germans, but this cannot be considered to be collaboration. OTOH, the Soviet POWs who worked in concentration camps to avoid starvation in the POW camps were collaborators.* As were the Sovok police who became German police.

    *This could be complicated however. Many of the Soviet POWS were conscripts forced to serve in the Soviet army. Soviet people who were forced to live under the Bolshevik yoke who welcomed the Germans cannot be considered collaborators. Here are examples:

    https://warontherocks.com/2018/08/fragile-loyalties-soviet-russians-between-hitler-and-stalin/

    ” The upheavals of collectivization led to the famine of 1932–1933, which killed millions. Later, in 1937–1938, Stalin’s Great Terror swept the country. Mass arrests, deportations, and executions targeted all sorts of imagined and real enemies of the state, resulting in a million more deaths. The Stalinist regime, bent on cleansing the country of opponents and enemies, made itself the worst enemy of its own people.

    The regime’s war against the peasantry naturally generated hostility and resentment in the countryside. As one wartime inhabitant of northwest Russia later put it, “My forefathers were affluent peasants; the Bolsheviks turned them into beggars and slaves.” Such emotions fed rumors, recurring frequently throughout the 1930s, of a coming war in which the Bolsheviks would be crushed and the collective farms dissolved. When the actual invasion came, authorities and witnesses recorded utterances such as “Now I expect salvation only from Hitler,” “Now we will hang all your Communists, and our lives will become better,” and “The Germans will dissolve the cursed kolkhozes, and then we will have our own farms again.”

    Many Russian peasants invested their hopes in the German message of liberation from Bolshevism. This is why some took to writing letters of gratitude. Others, as documented in Soviet partisan reports, offered the Germans a traditional bread-and-salt welcome. In one district, peasants even organized a collection of Christmas gifts for German soldiers, delivering thousands of pairs of socks, gloves, and felt boots in what appeared to be a display of gratitude. German intelligence reporting on the popular mood tends to be consistent with these observations. As one official stated in December 1941 (see Figure 3), “The peasants, as well as most of the urban population, generally welcomed the downfall of Bolshevism or at least passively observed the events.” Other types of sources provide corroboration. Here, for instance, is a diary entry from Aug. 20, 1941, by Mariia Germanova, a rural schoolteacher: “Most of our populace are glad the Germans have arrived.”

    :::

    The German betrayal of the Soviet peoples’ hopes was a tragedy but sadly in line with sick Nazi ideology.

    • Agree: RadicalCenter
    • Replies: @Mikhail
    @AP

    Your understanding of the definition of collaborator is mistaken. In terms of the raw meaning of the word, Krasnov was more of a Nazi collaborator than Vlasov.

    Vlasov and his forces had good reason to go against the Nazis. They were to a good extent disrespectfully treated. When the Nazis became desperate, they only then offered Vlasov and his forces a greater role. Vlasov's movement was premised on a pro-Russian/anti-Soviet outlook, as per their statements. In Prague (the last scene of WW II European theater fighting), Vlasov's forces felt a kinship with the Czech resistance and contributed to Prague's liberation - something acknowledged in Czechia.

    Yes, Vlasov was a Red Army officer. People have made reasonable changes.

    The Nazis made a mistake in not utilizing Vlasov in somewhat the same manner that the Germans usecd Lenin at the end of WW I.

    Replies: @AP

  330. @TheTotallyAnonymous
    @Mikel


    That is a harsh thing to tell a man, Rosie. Did you really mean what you said?

     

    Rosie is a typical woman that is incapable of proper and serious thought. She's also clearly showed herself to be quite a female svidomist (that term sounds cooler than Feminist imo).

    I any case, I really don’t know what some guys here are on about. It’s not that many women act slutty because we men “allow” them to. It’s that we gladly welcome those behaviors. And if they didn’t affect our daughters and wives, we would be even more enthusiastic about them. When in the history of humanity have men got as much sex as they desired?

     

    The part where some men have welcomed this, especially with the start of the Sexual Revolution in the USA from the 1960's and onward is true.

    However, you are wrong when you imply that men are getting lots of sex now. Young people, and especially men are now actually having less sex than ever. Just take a look at the statistics:

    https://beta.washingtonpost.com/business/2019/03/29/share-americans-not-having-sex-has-reached-record-high/?noredirect=on

    https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/12/the-sex-recession/573949/

    Where do you think all the incels are coming from? Where do you think incel shooters like Elliot Roger come from?

    You've failed to understand the dynamics of sexual relationships between men and women on a large scale.

    Ideally, for one man, being able to fertilize as many women as possible with his seed is what is desirable on a primitive biological level as this is the most reliable way for a man to secure the continuation of his genetic legacy. A man can run into all sorts of problems with this, as until modern times and the availability of the appropriate technology, doubt always existed as to which man's seed that a given baby would be a product of.

    However, for a woman, when she is fertilized by a man, there is obviously no problem as to whether her genetic legacy has been continued onto a child she gives birth to. This obviously suggests different mating strategies between men and women. For women the issue involves getting access to the highest possible quality male seed while also making sure that a given man will commit by giving her his resources, security, attention and whatever so she can raise the offspring smoothly. However, to do this, women do not have to necessarily commit to one man to do this, instead they can cuckold a man they have found to deceive and take his resources under the illusion that the woman is raising his seed. In other cases, some men are so pathetic that they volunteer to give their resources and attention to single mothers who freely spend their time searching to be fertilized by the highest quality possible Alpha seed. Most people are not entirely conscious of this, but these are the basic natural instincts that drive their sexual behaviors.

    This is why a society cannot function when sexual access and reproduction are made upon the basis of female mating preferences. In order for a society to function, women must be made to settle for men that are roughly at their level of quality. That is, in terms of the typical rating of women from 1-10, men can also be rated the same, so whatever a woman's number, she must settle for a man with the same number. At least, this is normal, healthy and ensures societal functioning. Instead, what exists since the "sexual liberation" is that women are all allowed without any restraint to pursue a small amount of high quality/status men, "Chads", while deciding to ignore all the other men because they can and have the freedom to do so.

    As for what makes some men "Chads" or "Alpha" in the eyes of women while other men are either ignored or considered to be "Beta", is another matter. This dynamic and reality is best explained in Roger F Devlin's book, Sexual Utopia in Power. Unless anyone is interested in buying it (I believe the author has given his permission for the free download place?), here is a place where a free PDF download of it can be obtained:

    https://www.toqonline.com/archives/v6n2/DevlinTOQV6N2.pdf

    I've done my best to explain this in brief, but breaking the illusion that men get sexual access to women by being "nice", white knighting for women and coddling them with large amounts of their resources and attention is vital. It is vital because it helps men personally understand how best to engage in sexual mating or long term family formation with women but also it helps those who want to change society and increase birthrates. It is with good reason that I am dead serious about abolishing higher education for women and the importance of women needing to become the private property of men. When I came across this realization recently, my life has changed for the better.

    Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous, @AP, @Mikel

    Young people, and especially men are now actually having less sex than ever.

    I doubt that is true. For the average (or above-average) man mating with multiple partners has become much more likely than it would have been had there been no female “sexual liberation”. And we all know some below average-looking men who have developed successful alternative strategies to attract women out of necessity. Moreover, dating skills, that were of paramount importance when I was a teenager, have become much less important due to the internet and dating apps.

    I do tend to see a certain evolution among the youngest generations towards a more conservative approach to sexual relations than was common in my youth (during the aftermath of the sexual revolution) but that is, if anything, a recent phenomenon not directly linked to lack of opportunities (even more so in societies mature enough to decriminalize prostitution).

    In order for a society to function, women must be made to settle for men that are roughly at their level of quality.

    This is pretty much what ends up happening if you just leave things alone. But it is debatable that this is the ideal outcome from a societal perspective. On the one hand, stable families are an unquestionable benefit for our civilized way of life. On the other hand, having alpha males reproduce at a higher rate than the rest is more eugenic.

    In the small rural communities of Fundamentalist Mormons in the Western USA they still practice the organized mating of so-called “seeders”, who are chosen by the Church to impregnate women married to other men. Unfortunately, these communities are nowadays so small that they have become affected by consanguinity problems. But I live surrounded by Mormons who were subject to this sort of practices during generations and my impression is that they built a very well functioning society of healthy and good-looking individuals.

    • Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous
    @Mikel


    I doubt that is true. For the average (or above-average) man mating with multiple partners has become much more likely than it would have been had there been no female “sexual liberation”. And we all know some below average-looking men who have developed successful alternative strategies to attract women out of necessity.
     
    I think you have unknowingly contradicted yourself with the parts in bold. They would seem to confirm that since the time of "sexual liberation" that most men are having less sex than ever while a small amount of men are having it much more with many women. Basically, what currently exists in the West is a sexual pyramid where all the higher status/level men have access to a pyramid of women at their equal or lower status levels chasing after them while all the other men are completely ignored.

    I do tend to see a certain evolution among the youngest generations towards a more conservative approach to sexual relations than was common in my youth (during the aftermath of the sexual revolution) but that is, if anything, a recent phenomenon not directly linked to lack of opportunities (even more so in societies mature enough to decriminalize prostitution).

     

    Again, you are confirming what I'm stating. It's also interesting that you consider legalization of prostitution to be an indicator of a mature society.

    This is pretty much what ends up happening if you just leave things alone. But it is debatable that this is the ideal outcome from a societal perspective. On the one hand, stable families are an unquestionable benefit for our civilized way of life. On the other hand, having alpha males reproduce at a higher rate than the rest is more eugenic.

     

    At least there's something we can agree on, although your suggestion that having a society based upon institutionalized cuckolding by superior men of lower status men is odd but interesting. The biggest problem with that would be that if a small amount of men had their way with large numbers of women, the risk of incest and dysgenics would be too high if the numbers are too low.

    Anyway, it's worth repeating the importance of reading Roger F Devlin's work (only a 30 page pdf) to understand the true nature of sexual relations between men and women with the logical solution following accordingly:

    https://www.toqonline.com/archives/v6n2/DevlinTOQV6N2.pdf

    Replies: @Mikel

  331. @AP
    @Mikhail

    The definition of a collaborator is: "a person who cooperates traitorously with an enemy; a defector."

    Vlasov was a high-ranking Sovok general who switched sides after he was captured. He was a defector. The fact that he defected again after the Nazis whom he joined were losing just drives this point home further.

    Pyotr Krasnov, in contrast, never took Sovok citizenship and never recognized Bolshevik rule over Russia. He allied with the Germans not as a defector, and his alliance was therefore not a form of treason. Thus he was not a collaborator. He didn't meet the definition.

    Same thing with Bandera and the OUN. Bandera was a monster and terrorist, but his cooperation with Germany did not represent treason or defection. He was not a Soviet and never recognized Polish rule over Ukraine. Like Krasnov, he allied with the Germans, but this cannot be considered to be collaboration. OTOH, the Soviet POWs who worked in concentration camps to avoid starvation in the POW camps were collaborators.* As were the Sovok police who became German police.

    *This could be complicated however. Many of the Soviet POWS were conscripts forced to serve in the Soviet army. Soviet people who were forced to live under the Bolshevik yoke who welcomed the Germans cannot be considered collaborators. Here are examples:

    https://warontherocks.com/2018/08/fragile-loyalties-soviet-russians-between-hitler-and-stalin/

    " The upheavals of collectivization led to the famine of 1932–1933, which killed millions. Later, in 1937–1938, Stalin’s Great Terror swept the country. Mass arrests, deportations, and executions targeted all sorts of imagined and real enemies of the state, resulting in a million more deaths. The Stalinist regime, bent on cleansing the country of opponents and enemies, made itself the worst enemy of its own people.

    The regime’s war against the peasantry naturally generated hostility and resentment in the countryside. As one wartime inhabitant of northwest Russia later put it, “My forefathers were affluent peasants; the Bolsheviks turned them into beggars and slaves.” Such emotions fed rumors, recurring frequently throughout the 1930s, of a coming war in which the Bolsheviks would be crushed and the collective farms dissolved. When the actual invasion came, authorities and witnesses recorded utterances such as “Now I expect salvation only from Hitler,” “Now we will hang all your Communists, and our lives will become better,” and “The Germans will dissolve the cursed kolkhozes, and then we will have our own farms again.”

    Many Russian peasants invested their hopes in the German message of liberation from Bolshevism. This is why some took to writing letters of gratitude. Others, as documented in Soviet partisan reports, offered the Germans a traditional bread-and-salt welcome. In one district, peasants even organized a collection of Christmas gifts for German soldiers, delivering thousands of pairs of socks, gloves, and felt boots in what appeared to be a display of gratitude. German intelligence reporting on the popular mood tends to be consistent with these observations. As one official stated in December 1941 (see Figure 3), “The peasants, as well as most of the urban population, generally welcomed the downfall of Bolshevism or at least passively observed the events.” Other types of sources provide corroboration. Here, for instance, is a diary entry from Aug. 20, 1941, by Mariia Germanova, a rural schoolteacher: “Most of our populace are glad the Germans have arrived.”

    :::

    The German betrayal of the Soviet peoples' hopes was a tragedy but sadly in line with sick Nazi ideology.

    Replies: @Mikhail

    Your understanding of the definition of collaborator is mistaken. In terms of the raw meaning of the word, Krasnov was more of a Nazi collaborator than Vlasov.

    Vlasov and his forces had good reason to go against the Nazis. They were to a good extent disrespectfully treated. When the Nazis became desperate, they only then offered Vlasov and his forces a greater role. Vlasov’s movement was premised on a pro-Russian/anti-Soviet outlook, as per their statements. In Prague (the last scene of WW II European theater fighting), Vlasov’s forces felt a kinship with the Czech resistance and contributed to Prague’s liberation – something acknowledged in Czechia.

    Yes, Vlasov was a Red Army officer. People have made reasonable changes.

    The Nazis made a mistake in not utilizing Vlasov in somewhat the same manner that the Germans usecd Lenin at the end of WW I.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Mikhail


    Your understanding of the definition of collaborator is mistaken
     
    Oxford English dictionary of the term:

    https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/us/definition/english/collaborator

    a person who helps the enemy in a war, when they have taken control of the person’s country

    Krasnov was never a Soviet citizen, he was a sworn enemy of the Bolsheviks. The USSR was not his country.

    Vlasov, however, was a Soviet citizen, and indeed was a Soviet general.

    Google:

    a person who cooperates traitorously with an enemy; a defector.

    Krasnov did not defect from the Soviets; he was never one of them. Again, Vlasov was a Soviet general who changed sides.

    So Krasnov was not a collaborator, but Vlasov was, according to how that word is defined in the English language.

    (for similar reasons, as I explained, Bandera was not a collaborator either - like Krasnov, he was an ally of the Nazis)

    :::::::::::::::::

    It is understood that the word collaborator is often used to simply mean, "anyone who worked with the Germans." But it is not the proper use, as seen by the definition of the word. The perversion of language is an unfortunate habit of propagandists. You shouldn't do it, even if you are a Vlasovite.

    Replies: @Mikhail

  332. @Mr. Hack
    @AP

    I'm not able to offer a judgement of the veracity of his views of history, although I have left the door open for him to provide some background reading to substantiate his views - he seems to have vanished?...Epigon certainly seems to know the territory, though.

    You know AP, there's a concensus out there amongst many historians that language affinity is just as important as actual genetic markers when trying to define a nationality. A lot of Ukrainians like to point out that Great Russians are also a kind of an erzats sort of Slav nation too. A finno-ugric sub base covered with a Slavic language veneer. Of course there seems to be a lot more "pure" Slavic DNA within Russia today. How many "Little Russians" have assimilated into the large Russian nation over the centuries, any guess? I would guess tens of millions, and I wouldn't be too far off, a lot more than in the 12th-14th centuries when the Great Russian ethnos first evolved.

    Replies: @AP, @Mikhail, @TheTotallyAnonymous

    I’m not able to offer a judgement of the veracity of his views of history, although I have left the door open for him to provide some background reading to substantiate his views – he seems to have vanished?

    Well, this forum isn’t the center of my life, as it is, I waste too much time here anyway.

    however, I find your rendition of Serbian history quite interesting and look forward to AP’s rebuttal. Any one or two Serbian history books that you could recommend in the English language would be appreciated.

    Well, there is a lot I could recommend, since Serbian history is quite a rich thing, but one of my most basic recommendations would simply be to read the works of Petar II Petrovic-Njegos who was a Serb Patriarch but also ruler of Montenegro (de facto Serbian) in the 19th century. That is, read the translations in English of course. Mountain Wreath is probably his most famous work and I honestly haven’t bothered to fully read it (I’ve been meaning to get around to that sometime), but I find Njegos’s work “Voice of the Kamenstak” (Глас Каменштака) to be my favorite since it is Njegos’s literary description of all the battles and fights that the Montenegrin Serbs fought against the Turks/Muslims from 1711-1813. English translations of these things aren’t exactly the easiest to come by, but I know that they exist.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @TheTotallyAnonymous

    Thanks for the information. I have enjoyed my visits to some local Serbian Orthodox churches in the Phoenix, AZ area. Milder form of Slivovitz are always a great refreshment. Let's both take some pride in knowing that the union of Serbian and Ukrainian parents produced the beautiful American movie star, Milla Jojovich.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a8/Milla_Jovovich_Cannes_2016.jpg/220px-Milla_Jovovich_Cannes_2016.jpg

  333. @AP
    @Mr. Hack


    You know AP, there’s a concensus out there amongst many historians that language affinity is just as important as actual genetic markers when trying to define a nationality.
     
    So Mike Tyson is basically an Englishman?

    I have no doubt that a Serb belongs to the Serb nationality. The question is if this makes him a Slav, rather than a Balkan. It does not.

    A lot of Ukrainians like to point out that Great Russians are also a kind of an erzats sort of Slav nation too. A finno-ugric sub base covered with a Slavic language veneer.
     
    Genetics has laid this false myth to rest (at least with respect to southern and central Russians who are as Slavic as Ukrainians - northern Russians are indeed mostly Finnic rather than Slavic). It also shows that Serbs are only about 25% Slavic by descent.

    Of course there seems to be a lot more “pure” Slavic DNA within Russia today. How many “Little Russians” have assimilated into the large Russian nation over the centuries, any guess? I would guess tens of millions, and I wouldn’t be too far off, a lot more than in the 12th-14th centuries when the Great Russian ethnos first evolved.
     
    A clever and probably realistic point. It is likely that in the 12th-14th century "Russians" (people from tVladimir-Suzdal) were less Slavic than they have been since Little Russians settled among them. Probably not as much as you think however - Russians from places without documented Ukrainian settlement are also rather Slavic. Also I doubt tens of millions of Ukrainians settled in Russia. In 1600 Russia had 14 million people. Poland-Lithuania had 8 million, so Ukraine itself probably had no more than 3 million (I don't have time to look up this figure).

    But Little Russian/Ukrainian settlement probably made some sort of difference.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Mr. Hack

    Also I doubt tens of millions of Ukrainians settled in Russia. In 1600 Russia had 14 million people. Poland-Lithuania had 8 million, so Ukraine itself probably had no more than 3 million (I don’t have time to look up this figure).

    The process, however has been going on and increasing since 1600. After reading a good article on this topic within Wikipedia, I’d have to revise my estimate way down. There are today at least 4,000,000 people of Ukrainian descent living in Russia (it’s gone way up since the Donbas war). Perhaps, this is a plus for Putin’s Russia?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainians_in_Russia

  334. @TheTotallyAnonymous
    @Mr. Hack


    I’m not able to offer a judgement of the veracity of his views of history, although I have left the door open for him to provide some background reading to substantiate his views – he seems to have vanished?
     
    Well, this forum isn't the center of my life, as it is, I waste too much time here anyway.

    however, I find your rendition of Serbian history quite interesting and look forward to AP’s rebuttal. Any one or two Serbian history books that you could recommend in the English language would be appreciated.

     

    Well, there is a lot I could recommend, since Serbian history is quite a rich thing, but one of my most basic recommendations would simply be to read the works of Petar II Petrovic-Njegos who was a Serb Patriarch but also ruler of Montenegro (de facto Serbian) in the 19th century. That is, read the translations in English of course. Mountain Wreath is probably his most famous work and I honestly haven't bothered to fully read it (I've been meaning to get around to that sometime), but I find Njegos's work "Voice of the Kamenstak" (Глас Каменштака) to be my favorite since it is Njegos's literary description of all the battles and fights that the Montenegrin Serbs fought against the Turks/Muslims from 1711-1813. English translations of these things aren't exactly the easiest to come by, but I know that they exist.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    Thanks for the information. I have enjoyed my visits to some local Serbian Orthodox churches in the Phoenix, AZ area. Milder form of Slivovitz are always a great refreshment. Let’s both take some pride in knowing that the union of Serbian and Ukrainian parents produced the beautiful American movie star, Milla Jojovich.

  335. @German_reader
    @TheTotallyAnonymous


    points to the fakeness of their country, national identity and artificial non-native presence in the Balkans.
     
    lol, where did Albanians originate then in your version of history?

    Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous

    lol, where did Albanians originate then in your version of history?

    It’s not my “version of history”. The historical evidence that Albanians/Arnauts/Shiptars are not native to the current land of Albania is very strong. As Epigon has already explained, Albania is a completely fake and artificial creation of the Western great powers at the start of the 20th century made in order to deny Serbs of their rightful ancient ancestral lands. Hungarian historian Lajos Thallaczy literally designed the current Albanian flag by plagiarizing from Serb history and culture. Also, Bosnian ethnicity and statehood is a completely fake thing as well which was another social engineering project begun by Austria-Hungary.

    Basically, with the exceptions of Serbia, Greece, Romania and Bulgaria, literally every other country that exists in the Balkans is a completely artificial and fake product of ethno-sociopolitical engineering by powerful non-Balkan forces. The existence of all those fake countries is disgusting and criminally offensive, and if the great powers and those peoples’ had any shred of basic human decency and ethics, they would instantly abolish those fake states and do the right thing by removing themselves from the world map. Anyway, even Romania and Bulgaria barely qualify as real countries since Vatican conspirators had a large part in cooking up the former, while the latter is a product of 1000 year old miscegenation between Serbs/Slavs and Tatars. Still, Romania and Bulgaria, along with Serbia and Greece, are certainly more real than all the other fake and monstrous entities in the Balkans.

    As for “Albanian” origins, there is strong, but not certain evidence for one of two explanations. First, that they come from the current Caucus around Azerbaijan or Dagestan where they gradually migrated by service in the Arab Islamic Caliphate, then onto Southern Italy and by boat into current Albania. The second mentions a tribe in current Southern Bulgaria called the Bessoi (note similarity to Besa) that also migrated towards current Albania. Regardless, what’s clear is that there is a lot of evidence which suggests that “Albanians” are not native to current Albania, but that they come from somewhere else.

    • Replies: @Anonymoose
    @TheTotallyAnonymous


    As for “Albanian” origins, there is strong, but not certain evidence for one of two explanations. First, that they come from the current Caucus around Azerbaijan or Dagestan where they gradually migrated by service in the Arab Islamic Caliphate, then onto Southern Italy and by boat into current Albania. The second mentions a tribe in current Southern Bulgaria called the Bessoi (note similarity to Besa) that also migrated towards current Albania. Regardless, what’s clear is that there is a lot of evidence which suggests that “Albanians” are not native to current Albania, but that they come from somewhere else.
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_Albania

    The Ancient greeks called it Ἀλβανία.
    , @Epigon
    @TheTotallyAnonymous

    There is little point in discussing Balkan present here, let alone Balkan history. Tone down your svidomism, as it seems you readily identify foreign svidomism while remaining oblivious of your own.

    The supposedly “fake” countries and nations you call out are not fake as long as they are live and kicking (Serb ass). Ranting about them and their origin has no benefits - there are dozens of more useful and purposeful activities you should be doing instead - finishing your studies or setting up your business, for example.

    As WW2 and especially WW1 aftermath in the region have demonstrated, expanding your borders through military victory and approval of Great Powers is not enough. I couldn’t stress this more - Serbs have both megalomania, delusions of grandeur and (strategic) shortsightedness in them, this extending from (opportunistic) commoners to political elite. Serbia hadn’t even built an internal, national consensus and a structured society since 1878 when it expanded in 1912-1913 and 1918-1919, overextending with disastrous results. Any sane individual would have told the Slovenians (Natlačen) and especially Croatians (Starčević, Frank, Radić, Vražja divizija, Pilar) to go fuck themselves and deal with Hungarians, Italians and Austrians, settling their borders in the process as they wished. Instead, the retarded Serbs accepted former AH enemy officers, promoted them and inducted into military service. People invading Kingdom of Serbia and participating in mass war crimes in Mačva were allowed to participate in political life of Yugoslavia - naturally they sabotaged it and blocked Parliament in 1919-1921, resulting in king suspending it. This was mirrored in 1944-1946 regarding Yugocommunist Tito, AH corporal from AH invasion of Serbia.

    By my estimates, Serbia needs several decades of peace and respite to remove anomalies and impurities from society and mentality, form a coherent national idea and forge unity comparable to Croat one. Which means that constructive criticism, ideas, innovation and work dedication take precedence over jingoism, svidomism, score settling with neighbours etc. With NATO protective umbrella and different degrees of US, UK and German interests in the surroundings, any conflict would result in a total disaster.

    Observe how easily yet skillfully AP pushed your buttons, hit you for maximum effect, and consider the implications of such actions-reactions on an international, geopolitical plane. Provocateurs count on impulsive reactions, why do you think a Croat was ridiculing and making fun of 1+ million dead Serb of WW1 in Yugoslav parliament in 1928, offering to buy off spilled Serb blood?

    Replies: @peterAUS

  336. @TheTotallyAnonymous
    @German_reader


    lol, where did Albanians originate then in your version of history?

     

    It's not my "version of history". The historical evidence that Albanians/Arnauts/Shiptars are not native to the current land of Albania is very strong. As Epigon has already explained, Albania is a completely fake and artificial creation of the Western great powers at the start of the 20th century made in order to deny Serbs of their rightful ancient ancestral lands. Hungarian historian Lajos Thallaczy literally designed the current Albanian flag by plagiarizing from Serb history and culture. Also, Bosnian ethnicity and statehood is a completely fake thing as well which was another social engineering project begun by Austria-Hungary.

    Basically, with the exceptions of Serbia, Greece, Romania and Bulgaria, literally every other country that exists in the Balkans is a completely artificial and fake product of ethno-sociopolitical engineering by powerful non-Balkan forces. The existence of all those fake countries is disgusting and criminally offensive, and if the great powers and those peoples' had any shred of basic human decency and ethics, they would instantly abolish those fake states and do the right thing by removing themselves from the world map. Anyway, even Romania and Bulgaria barely qualify as real countries since Vatican conspirators had a large part in cooking up the former, while the latter is a product of 1000 year old miscegenation between Serbs/Slavs and Tatars. Still, Romania and Bulgaria, along with Serbia and Greece, are certainly more real than all the other fake and monstrous entities in the Balkans.

    As for "Albanian" origins, there is strong, but not certain evidence for one of two explanations. First, that they come from the current Caucus around Azerbaijan or Dagestan where they gradually migrated by service in the Arab Islamic Caliphate, then onto Southern Italy and by boat into current Albania. The second mentions a tribe in current Southern Bulgaria called the Bessoi (note similarity to Besa) that also migrated towards current Albania. Regardless, what's clear is that there is a lot of evidence which suggests that "Albanians" are not native to current Albania, but that they come from somewhere else.

    Replies: @Anonymoose, @Epigon

    As for “Albanian” origins, there is strong, but not certain evidence for one of two explanations. First, that they come from the current Caucus around Azerbaijan or Dagestan where they gradually migrated by service in the Arab Islamic Caliphate, then onto Southern Italy and by boat into current Albania. The second mentions a tribe in current Southern Bulgaria called the Bessoi (note similarity to Besa) that also migrated towards current Albania. Regardless, what’s clear is that there is a lot of evidence which suggests that “Albanians” are not native to current Albania, but that they come from somewhere else.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_Albania

    The Ancient greeks called it Ἀλβανία.

  337. @AnonFromTN
    @AP


    Collaborationist and Sovietism went hand in hand.
     
    In that case, how do you explain that France and many other “democratic” countries readily folded and submitted to Nazi occupation? In contrast, Soviet Union did not fold, and crushed Nazi Germany in the end. If your assertion were true, it would have been the other way around. From which it follows that your statement is utter BS.

    Replies: @utu, @AP, @Mikhail, @reiner Tor

    The USSR was big, and the Soviet citizens numerous, so could afford to lose even more catastrophic losses than France. More Soviet soldiers fell into German captivity in the first few months of the war than even existed in the French army. Within three months the Germans captured an area almost twice as large as France, despite the logistics being way more difficult and distances larger than in France.

    Being big is a big advantage in war, but it’s not a virtue.

    • Agree: AP
    • Replies: @neutral
    @reiner Tor

    It needs to be pointed out that German casualties were much higher at the start of the invasion of the USSR than in France, this has less to do with the size of the terrain and more to do with the ferocity of the battles.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    , @AnonFromTN
    @reiner Tor

    Being big is not a virtue. Refusing to surrender is. Within a month Nazi armies were way behind their Barbarossa schedule. Smolensk stalled German offensive by two months (July 10 – September 10, 1941). France was defeated in a shorter period of time, within seven weeks. The only reason for that is because France folded, while the USSR did not. Much weaker Poland under attack from both Nazi Germany and the USSR resisted almost as long as France. Now, the trick question: who were despicable cowards?

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @Blinky Bill

  338. @songbird
    I've been thinking about language and IQ. We talk about national IQ, but maybe language IQ is an overlooked concept.

    Take English. Got to figure a lot of people in the Third World speak it. Then a lot have it as a second or third language, so that makes it even dumber. It is commonly said that Hollywood scripts movies for an international audience, since many countries do not dub. Does this have any political ramifications to Anglo countries, even beyond immigration?

    Replies: @Yevardian

    Mainly I just think it explains the absolutely abysmal level of quality of American films since perhaps the late 2000’s, particularly Superhero stuff.

    If you look at many blockbuster American films from the 1970’s (‘Dog Day Afternoon’, ‘Taxi Driver’, ‘Mccabe & Mrs Miller’, even ‘Annie Hall’), most of them would be relegated to the ‘arthouse’ (totally meaningless term) circuit today.

    • Agree: LondonBob
  339. @German_reader
    @Anonymoose

    Reminds me of this:
    https://www.theguardian.pe.ca/news/world/gay-chemsex-is-fuelling-urban-hiv-epidemics-aids-experts-warn-351482/

    and this (warning, it's seriously unpleasant):
    https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/aug/23/i-had-an-erection-for-three-weeks-experience

    Replies: @Anonymoose, @Yevardian

    Jesus Christ… had to stop before the end to puke.. thanks for the most disgusting thing I’ve read in a very long time.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @Yevardian

    I prudently didn’t open those links back then, but now I did, as a result of your comment. You owe me an apology!

  340. @TheTotallyAnonymous
    @German_reader


    lol, where did Albanians originate then in your version of history?

     

    It's not my "version of history". The historical evidence that Albanians/Arnauts/Shiptars are not native to the current land of Albania is very strong. As Epigon has already explained, Albania is a completely fake and artificial creation of the Western great powers at the start of the 20th century made in order to deny Serbs of their rightful ancient ancestral lands. Hungarian historian Lajos Thallaczy literally designed the current Albanian flag by plagiarizing from Serb history and culture. Also, Bosnian ethnicity and statehood is a completely fake thing as well which was another social engineering project begun by Austria-Hungary.

    Basically, with the exceptions of Serbia, Greece, Romania and Bulgaria, literally every other country that exists in the Balkans is a completely artificial and fake product of ethno-sociopolitical engineering by powerful non-Balkan forces. The existence of all those fake countries is disgusting and criminally offensive, and if the great powers and those peoples' had any shred of basic human decency and ethics, they would instantly abolish those fake states and do the right thing by removing themselves from the world map. Anyway, even Romania and Bulgaria barely qualify as real countries since Vatican conspirators had a large part in cooking up the former, while the latter is a product of 1000 year old miscegenation between Serbs/Slavs and Tatars. Still, Romania and Bulgaria, along with Serbia and Greece, are certainly more real than all the other fake and monstrous entities in the Balkans.

    As for "Albanian" origins, there is strong, but not certain evidence for one of two explanations. First, that they come from the current Caucus around Azerbaijan or Dagestan where they gradually migrated by service in the Arab Islamic Caliphate, then onto Southern Italy and by boat into current Albania. The second mentions a tribe in current Southern Bulgaria called the Bessoi (note similarity to Besa) that also migrated towards current Albania. Regardless, what's clear is that there is a lot of evidence which suggests that "Albanians" are not native to current Albania, but that they come from somewhere else.

    Replies: @Anonymoose, @Epigon

    There is little point in discussing Balkan present here, let alone Balkan history. Tone down your svidomism, as it seems you readily identify foreign svidomism while remaining oblivious of your own.

    The supposedly “fake” countries and nations you call out are not fake as long as they are live and kicking (Serb ass). Ranting about them and their origin has no benefits – there are dozens of more useful and purposeful activities you should be doing instead – finishing your studies or setting up your business, for example.

    As WW2 and especially WW1 aftermath in the region have demonstrated, expanding your borders through military victory and approval of Great Powers is not enough. I couldn’t stress this more – Serbs have both megalomania, delusions of grandeur and (strategic) shortsightedness in them, this extending from (opportunistic) commoners to political elite. Serbia hadn’t even built an internal, national consensus and a structured society since 1878 when it expanded in 1912-1913 and 1918-1919, overextending with disastrous results. Any sane individual would have told the Slovenians (Natlačen) and especially Croatians (Starčević, Frank, Radić, Vražja divizija, Pilar) to go fuck themselves and deal with Hungarians, Italians and Austrians, settling their borders in the process as they wished. Instead, the retarded Serbs accepted former AH enemy officers, promoted them and inducted into military service. People invading Kingdom of Serbia and participating in mass war crimes in Mačva were allowed to participate in political life of Yugoslavia – naturally they sabotaged it and blocked Parliament in 1919-1921, resulting in king suspending it. This was mirrored in 1944-1946 regarding Yugocommunist Tito, AH corporal from AH invasion of Serbia.

    By my estimates, Serbia needs several decades of peace and respite to remove anomalies and impurities from society and mentality, form a coherent national idea and forge unity comparable to Croat one. Which means that constructive criticism, ideas, innovation and work dedication take precedence over jingoism, svidomism, score settling with neighbours etc. With NATO protective umbrella and different degrees of US, UK and German interests in the surroundings, any conflict would result in a total disaster.

    Observe how easily yet skillfully AP pushed your buttons, hit you for maximum effect, and consider the implications of such actions-reactions on an international, geopolitical plane. Provocateurs count on impulsive reactions, why do you think a Croat was ridiculing and making fun of 1+ million dead Serb of WW1 in Yugoslav parliament in 1928, offering to buy off spilled Serb blood?

    • Agree: TheTotallyAnonymous
    • Replies: @peterAUS
    @Epigon

    Good comment.

    Especially:


    .....to remove anomalies and impurities from society and mentality, form a coherent national idea and forge unity comparable to Croat one. Which means that constructive criticism, ideas, innovation and work dedication.....
     
    I guess you guys (your types, that is....tiny minority there, apparently), have your work cut out for you.

    So, a question for you: orientation towards West or East?

    My impression is that a lot of problems your tribe has is related to the automatic, willful, rejection of whatever comes from the West. Whatever. Innovation and work dedication, for example. Which is funny because Serbs, in the West, could be quite innovative and definitely hard working.

    I guess you are talking about shift in the culture.
    If my guess is correct, would you care to expand on that?

    BTW. a couple of Serbs I know, here, do share your sentiment. Well, that's why they are here, in fact. Not there.
  341. @Yevardian
    @German_reader

    Jesus Christ... had to stop before the end to puke.. thanks for the most disgusting thing I've read in a very long time.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    I prudently didn’t open those links back then, but now I did, as a result of your comment. You owe me an apology!

  342. @Mikel
    @TheTotallyAnonymous


    Young people, and especially men are now actually having less sex than ever.
     
    I doubt that is true. For the average (or above-average) man mating with multiple partners has become much more likely than it would have been had there been no female "sexual liberation". And we all know some below average-looking men who have developed successful alternative strategies to attract women out of necessity. Moreover, dating skills, that were of paramount importance when I was a teenager, have become much less important due to the internet and dating apps.

    I do tend to see a certain evolution among the youngest generations towards a more conservative approach to sexual relations than was common in my youth (during the aftermath of the sexual revolution) but that is, if anything, a recent phenomenon not directly linked to lack of opportunities (even more so in societies mature enough to decriminalize prostitution).


    In order for a society to function, women must be made to settle for men that are roughly at their level of quality.
     
    This is pretty much what ends up happening if you just leave things alone. But it is debatable that this is the ideal outcome from a societal perspective. On the one hand, stable families are an unquestionable benefit for our civilized way of life. On the other hand, having alpha males reproduce at a higher rate than the rest is more eugenic.

    In the small rural communities of Fundamentalist Mormons in the Western USA they still practice the organized mating of so-called "seeders", who are chosen by the Church to impregnate women married to other men. Unfortunately, these communities are nowadays so small that they have become affected by consanguinity problems. But I live surrounded by Mormons who were subject to this sort of practices during generations and my impression is that they built a very well functioning society of healthy and good-looking individuals.

    Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous

    I doubt that is true. For the average (or above-average) man mating with multiple partners has become much more likely than it would have been had there been no female “sexual liberation”. And we all know some below average-looking men who have developed successful alternative strategies to attract women out of necessity.

    I think you have unknowingly contradicted yourself with the parts in bold. They would seem to confirm that since the time of “sexual liberation” that most men are having less sex than ever while a small amount of men are having it much more with many women. Basically, what currently exists in the West is a sexual pyramid where all the higher status/level men have access to a pyramid of women at their equal or lower status levels chasing after them while all the other men are completely ignored.

    I do tend to see a certain evolution among the youngest generations towards a more conservative approach to sexual relations than was common in my youth (during the aftermath of the sexual revolution) but that is, if anything, a recent phenomenon not directly linked to lack of opportunities (even more so in societies mature enough to decriminalize prostitution).

    Again, you are confirming what I’m stating. It’s also interesting that you consider legalization of prostitution to be an indicator of a mature society.

    This is pretty much what ends up happening if you just leave things alone. But it is debatable that this is the ideal outcome from a societal perspective. On the one hand, stable families are an unquestionable benefit for our civilized way of life. On the other hand, having alpha males reproduce at a higher rate than the rest is more eugenic.

    At least there’s something we can agree on, although your suggestion that having a society based upon institutionalized cuckolding by superior men of lower status men is odd but interesting. The biggest problem with that would be that if a small amount of men had their way with large numbers of women, the risk of incest and dysgenics would be too high if the numbers are too low.

    Anyway, it’s worth repeating the importance of reading Roger F Devlin’s work (only a 30 page pdf) to understand the true nature of sexual relations between men and women with the logical solution following accordingly:

    https://www.toqonline.com/archives/v6n2/DevlinTOQV6N2.pdf

    • Replies: @Mikel
    @TheTotallyAnonymous


    I think you have unknowingly contradicted yourself with the parts in bold.
     
    You must think harder and try to understand what the term average means.

    The sexual and romantic life of below-average men has always been very difficult. And they didn't have all the dating opportunities that are currently available. You must be very young if you think that you're witnessing anything new.

    But if the situation of these men is of great concern to you, the most practical measure is to allow grown-up women who are willing to cater for the urges of these men in exchange for money to do so. That alleviates the sexual part of this problem considerably (so much so that, even if you don't allow it, members of both groups will do it anyway, as they have throughout history).

    I do NOT like the idea of a Church or any other authority dictating who must procreate with whom. But I don't think that my preferred way of arranging reproduction: monogamous and stable families, is the most eugenic one, especially in these times of higher classes having less offspring than the lower ones.

    I have already read about the female "hypergamous" tendencies by Devlin before. Somebody provided a link on this site not long ago. To be honest, I don't feel the need to learn through an online manifesto much more more about women than I already know. Women also have their very big problems, especially the below-average looking ones. We all just do what we can with the cards that we are given.

    Replies: @anonymous coward

  343. @Anonymous
    @anonymous coward

    Women who are sexually attractive (young, pretty, well proportioned) are going to show it off to the extent society allows them to (social norms have been historically dictated by men), because this is their reproductive value. Men too will try to show off whatever it is (strength, intelligence, social skills) that makes them a good mate . If you've got it, flaunt it. Your "rule" about loose sex doesn't seem to be in evidence in much of the world, as promiscuous Africa has the highest birth rates of all and conservative East Asia the lowest.

    Monogamy is not the animal imperative of the human creature; it is simply an agreement in any given stable social group that we are not going to screw each other's wives (even then, often honored more in the breach than the observance). Men throughout history have been perfectly happy--enthusiastic even--to fuck random women when they're reasonably sure there won't be repercussions for doing so. So you kill the (outgroup) men first, then you take their women. Whole nations (Iceland) were founded on this practice. Human beings in aggregate are closer to chimps than to your romantic fairytale notions.

    Replies: @neutral

    loose sex doesn’t seem to be in evidence in much of the world, as promiscuous Africa has the highest birth rates of all

    Blacks in Africa do not have the same behaviour as in America. High birth rates in Africa have absolutely nothing to do with promiscuous behaviour.

  344. @reiner Tor
    @AnonFromTN

    The USSR was big, and the Soviet citizens numerous, so could afford to lose even more catastrophic losses than France. More Soviet soldiers fell into German captivity in the first few months of the war than even existed in the French army. Within three months the Germans captured an area almost twice as large as France, despite the logistics being way more difficult and distances larger than in France.

    Being big is a big advantage in war, but it’s not a virtue.

    Replies: @neutral, @AnonFromTN

    It needs to be pointed out that German casualties were much higher at the start of the invasion of the USSR than in France, this has less to do with the size of the terrain and more to do with the ferocity of the battles.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @neutral

    The Soviet armed forces were much bigger, and the terrain more difficult for an attacker. So of course the battles were bound to be more ferocious.

    Replies: @Korenchkin

  345. @Dmitry
    @Priss Factor

    Lol but in Russia though, schoolgirls are twerking without any direct social contact of African Americans.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaUrff6EyT0


    -


    Although when idiotic young women of Novorossiysk distastefully filmed a video dancing in front of the war memorial on Malaya Zemlya, they were arrested and had to go to prison for 15 days for disrespect to the war memorial. (I think they only filmed in front of the war memorial, because it was one of the only grass parks in their city).

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_FnUwvzkuE

    Replies: @Anonymoose, @Anonymous, @Priss Factor, @Thulean Friend, @Bliss

    All these twerking saqaliba (google it) girls are probably auditioning for jobs in Dubai.

    Btw, it is funny to see the incel dorks here (like prissy) acting all moral over it, lol. As if this is any different than the “high culture” of Europe: just look at ballet and ice dancing for example. What’s with the ballerinas and skaters lifting one leg sky high exposing their vaginas for all to stare at? That’s what French prostitutes have been doing for centuries to attract customers. There is an arab account of Frankish whores doing exactly that in front of crowds of crusaders in the Holy Land they had conquered.

    • Replies: @neutral
    @Bliss

    Comparing ballet to twerking is simply moronic. One does not have to resort to your stupid Snopes style "fact check" routine to know this is moronic. You are too moronic to know just how moronic your argument is.

  346. @Bliss
    @Dmitry

    All these twerking saqaliba (google it) girls are probably auditioning for jobs in Dubai.

    Btw, it is funny to see the incel dorks here (like prissy) acting all moral over it, lol. As if this is any different than the “high culture” of Europe: just look at ballet and ice dancing for example. What’s with the ballerinas and skaters lifting one leg sky high exposing their vaginas for all to stare at? That’s what French prostitutes have been doing for centuries to attract customers. There is an arab account of Frankish whores doing exactly that in front of crowds of crusaders in the Holy Land they had conquered.

    Replies: @neutral

    Comparing ballet to twerking is simply moronic. One does not have to resort to your stupid Snopes style “fact check” routine to know this is moronic. You are too moronic to know just how moronic your argument is.

  347. @neutral
    @reiner Tor

    It needs to be pointed out that German casualties were much higher at the start of the invasion of the USSR than in France, this has less to do with the size of the terrain and more to do with the ferocity of the battles.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    The Soviet armed forces were much bigger, and the terrain more difficult for an attacker. So of course the battles were bound to be more ferocious.

    • Replies: @Korenchkin
    @reiner Tor

    The Germans had numerical superiority in many battles on the Eastern Front at the start of the war

    Replies: @reiner Tor

  348. The French army was not much smaller compared to the Soviet numbers at the start, also since they were concentrated in a smaller area that actually should mean more ferocious fighting. Terrain as an excuse does not make sense, as Ukraine/Belarus is hardly Afghanistan.

    If you even out troop numbers then the amount of casualties at the start of Barbarossa is an order of magnitude higher than in France, the soldier numbers were however not at that level of difference between France and USSR.

    • Replies: @AP
    @neutral


    Terrain as an excuse does not make sense, as Ukraine/Belarus is hardly Afghanistan.
     
    Swampland, fewer roads in the USSR. Much more difficult terrain for attackers.

    Replies: @Epigon

  349. @neutral
    The French army was not much smaller compared to the Soviet numbers at the start, also since they were concentrated in a smaller area that actually should mean more ferocious fighting. Terrain as an excuse does not make sense, as Ukraine/Belarus is hardly Afghanistan.

    If you even out troop numbers then the amount of casualties at the start of Barbarossa is an order of magnitude higher than in France, the soldier numbers were however not at that level of difference between France and USSR.

    Replies: @AP

    Terrain as an excuse does not make sense, as Ukraine/Belarus is hardly Afghanistan.

    Swampland, fewer roads in the USSR. Much more difficult terrain for attackers.

    • Replies: @Epigon
    @AP

    To be honest - the crucial German thrust came through the Ardennes. The worst terrain imaginable for a mechanized attacker. In comparison, the Axis-Soviet border on June 22nd was lowlands and river valleys.

    French and BEF were caught with their pants down, lingering around Maginot line and looking to repel the repeat of WW1 thrust through Low countries. Sedan was the crucial battle, which, along with Belgian forts, was won principally by Pioniere and Sturmpioniere.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

  350. @Mikhail
    @AP

    Your understanding of the definition of collaborator is mistaken. In terms of the raw meaning of the word, Krasnov was more of a Nazi collaborator than Vlasov.

    Vlasov and his forces had good reason to go against the Nazis. They were to a good extent disrespectfully treated. When the Nazis became desperate, they only then offered Vlasov and his forces a greater role. Vlasov's movement was premised on a pro-Russian/anti-Soviet outlook, as per their statements. In Prague (the last scene of WW II European theater fighting), Vlasov's forces felt a kinship with the Czech resistance and contributed to Prague's liberation - something acknowledged in Czechia.

    Yes, Vlasov was a Red Army officer. People have made reasonable changes.

    The Nazis made a mistake in not utilizing Vlasov in somewhat the same manner that the Germans usecd Lenin at the end of WW I.

    Replies: @AP

    Your understanding of the definition of collaborator is mistaken

    Oxford English dictionary of the term:

    https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/us/definition/english/collaborator

    a person who helps the enemy in a war, when they have taken control of the person’s country

    Krasnov was never a Soviet citizen, he was a sworn enemy of the Bolsheviks. The USSR was not his country.

    Vlasov, however, was a Soviet citizen, and indeed was a Soviet general.

    Google:

    a person who cooperates traitorously with an enemy; a defector.

    Krasnov did not defect from the Soviets; he was never one of them. Again, Vlasov was a Soviet general who changed sides.

    So Krasnov was not a collaborator, but Vlasov was, according to how that word is defined in the English language.

    (for similar reasons, as I explained, Bandera was not a collaborator either – like Krasnov, he was an ally of the Nazis)

    :::::::::::::::::

    It is understood that the word collaborator is often used to simply mean, “anyone who worked with the Germans.” But it is not the proper use, as seen by the definition of the word. The perversion of language is an unfortunate habit of propagandists. You shouldn’t do it, even if you are a Vlasovite.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
    @AP

    You're technically wrong again, while carrying on like a propagandist with your Vlasovite label.

    Collaborate means to work with someone or an entity. A person collaborating in such a situation isn't by default a traitor to someone or something else. As an example, the word collaborate (collaborated, collaborates, collaborating) has been used in relation to co-authors, who aren't necessarily betraying anything/anyone in their collaboration with each other. Krasnov was if anything more of Nazi collaborator than Vlasov.

    Vlasov was for a strong Russia - a point which got him in trouble with some of the Nazi hierarchy. Within his ranks was the view that Stalin betrayed Soviet as well as Russian ideals, thereby making Stalin the traitor. At least part or all of that perspective is one that finds support among some on the left, as well as with pro-Russian/anti-Communist advocacy.

    Krasnov fluctuated between supporting a unitary Russia and the factually challenged view that the Cossacks are a separate ethnic group. He went along with the Nazi imagery of a Cossackia, something which the anti-Russian pro-Bandera Captive Nations Committee pushed for as well.

    BTW, the ROCOR and ROC-MP have expressed differences of opinion over Vlasov. The sovok view typically sees Vlasov as a traitor. Likewise, the pro-Bandera svidos don't like him as well. Sovoks and svidos tend to not like pro-Russian/anti-Communist advocacy.

    Replies: @AP

  351. @AP
    @neutral


    Terrain as an excuse does not make sense, as Ukraine/Belarus is hardly Afghanistan.
     
    Swampland, fewer roads in the USSR. Much more difficult terrain for attackers.

    Replies: @Epigon

    To be honest – the crucial German thrust came through the Ardennes. The worst terrain imaginable for a mechanized attacker. In comparison, the Axis-Soviet border on June 22nd was lowlands and river valleys.

    French and BEF were caught with their pants down, lingering around Maginot line and looking to repel the repeat of WW1 thrust through Low countries. Sedan was the crucial battle, which, along with Belgian forts, was won principally by Pioniere and Sturmpioniere.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @Epigon

    They lucked it out, because they weren’t stopped in the first few days.

    After that the French campaign quickly led to the destruction of the main French force and the withdrawal of the British Expeditionary Force, subsequent of which the Germans enjoyed numerical superiority in a relatively quite limited theater of operations. This resulted in a quick French collapse. The Soviets had room to absorb the losses and had time to set up an enormous number of new divisions. It would have been impossible for France to do the same, given the dense transportation network and the relatively small area of the country.

    The Soviets managed to slow down and then stop the German offensive only after the Germans ran out of the range of their logistics support, this simply wouldn’t have happened in France, not even in the Pyrenees.

    The different rail gauges then burdened German logistics further.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson

  352. Trump told Mnuchin to substantially increase sanctions on Iran.

  353. @Epigon
    @AP

    To be honest - the crucial German thrust came through the Ardennes. The worst terrain imaginable for a mechanized attacker. In comparison, the Axis-Soviet border on June 22nd was lowlands and river valleys.

    French and BEF were caught with their pants down, lingering around Maginot line and looking to repel the repeat of WW1 thrust through Low countries. Sedan was the crucial battle, which, along with Belgian forts, was won principally by Pioniere and Sturmpioniere.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    They lucked it out, because they weren’t stopped in the first few days.

    After that the French campaign quickly led to the destruction of the main French force and the withdrawal of the British Expeditionary Force, subsequent of which the Germans enjoyed numerical superiority in a relatively quite limited theater of operations. This resulted in a quick French collapse. The Soviets had room to absorb the losses and had time to set up an enormous number of new divisions. It would have been impossible for France to do the same, given the dense transportation network and the relatively small area of the country.

    The Soviets managed to slow down and then stop the German offensive only after the Germans ran out of the range of their logistics support, this simply wouldn’t have happened in France, not even in the Pyrenees.

    The different rail gauges then burdened German logistics further.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    @reiner Tor

    The Germans chewed threw something on the order of 800 Soviet divisions between June and December of 1941. Two-thirds of those divisions were newly formed after the invasion had begun. It was a disastrous failure of military intelligence, which correctly estimated the size of the Soviet field army but incorrectly judged that the Soviet government would only be able to equip 50 more divisions during a 20 week campaign.

    Even if France had the time and space to form new divisions, they didn't have the manpower. On 10 May 1940 there were 94 French divisions constituting 2.2 million men facing the Germans, along with more facing the Italians (five divisions constituting 185,000 men) and in the colonies (11 divisions in North Africa, three in the Levant). There was also around another 300,000 men in the navy and air force.

    France did have millions more trained reservists and was in fact in the process of calling them up, retraining them, equipping them, and forming new divisions. But it should be noted that many of these reservists were in fact middle aged men who had seen active duty years earlier. And unlike the USSR, France didn't spend the 1930s stockpiling a vast horde of weapons. Rearmament was running at full tilt, and the country was importing more arms from the United States where possible.

    The population of metropolitan France in 1940 was around forty million.

    So France had already hit its demographic limit in terms of manpower either already in military service or trained for military service.

    That said, extraordinary mobilization measures of the Soviet government during the GPW under the most appalling, disastrous conditions imaginable are perhaps the most extreme ever in history, and it's doubtful that the Third Republic was capable of a similar effort. Realistically the only other regimes capable of such an effort were Nazi Germany and Showa Japan.

  354. @AP
    @Mr. Hack


    You know AP, there’s a concensus out there amongst many historians that language affinity is just as important as actual genetic markers when trying to define a nationality.
     
    So Mike Tyson is basically an Englishman?

    I have no doubt that a Serb belongs to the Serb nationality. The question is if this makes him a Slav, rather than a Balkan. It does not.

    A lot of Ukrainians like to point out that Great Russians are also a kind of an erzats sort of Slav nation too. A finno-ugric sub base covered with a Slavic language veneer.
     
    Genetics has laid this false myth to rest (at least with respect to southern and central Russians who are as Slavic as Ukrainians - northern Russians are indeed mostly Finnic rather than Slavic). It also shows that Serbs are only about 25% Slavic by descent.

    Of course there seems to be a lot more “pure” Slavic DNA within Russia today. How many “Little Russians” have assimilated into the large Russian nation over the centuries, any guess? I would guess tens of millions, and I wouldn’t be too far off, a lot more than in the 12th-14th centuries when the Great Russian ethnos first evolved.
     
    A clever and probably realistic point. It is likely that in the 12th-14th century "Russians" (people from tVladimir-Suzdal) were less Slavic than they have been since Little Russians settled among them. Probably not as much as you think however - Russians from places without documented Ukrainian settlement are also rather Slavic. Also I doubt tens of millions of Ukrainians settled in Russia. In 1600 Russia had 14 million people. Poland-Lithuania had 8 million, so Ukraine itself probably had no more than 3 million (I don't have time to look up this figure).

    But Little Russian/Ukrainian settlement probably made some sort of difference.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Mr. Hack

    So Mike Tyson is basically an Englishman?

    No, Mike Tyson is an American. Is Dr. Oz (light skinned of Turkish descent) more an American than say Dr. Ben Carson of African descent? All would agree that the 20th century was the “American” one, yet one rarely hears about an American nationality. Does it really exist, or is it mostly a construct of citizenship stamped on somebody’s passport?

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    @Mr. Hack

    The real Americans are those who were here before the Revolutionary War.

    Black Americans constitute a separate nationality.

    Descendants of more recent European immigrants, who arrived in large numbers from circa 1845 - 1914, have assimilated in varying degrees with the old stock core Americans who settled, pioneered, and built the country. Some of them are nearly indistinguishable from the original Americans. There has also been mixing, so you have those who are both of old stock and Ellis Island descent.

    Those who are neither white nor black are in limbo and have no clear identity at all.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    , @AP
    @Mr. Hack

    America is not an ethnic nation but an idea-nation.

    So an English-speaking Carib from London is an Englishman?

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @Mr. Hack

  355. @reiner Tor
    @Epigon

    They lucked it out, because they weren’t stopped in the first few days.

    After that the French campaign quickly led to the destruction of the main French force and the withdrawal of the British Expeditionary Force, subsequent of which the Germans enjoyed numerical superiority in a relatively quite limited theater of operations. This resulted in a quick French collapse. The Soviets had room to absorb the losses and had time to set up an enormous number of new divisions. It would have been impossible for France to do the same, given the dense transportation network and the relatively small area of the country.

    The Soviets managed to slow down and then stop the German offensive only after the Germans ran out of the range of their logistics support, this simply wouldn’t have happened in France, not even in the Pyrenees.

    The different rail gauges then burdened German logistics further.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson

    The Germans chewed threw something on the order of 800 Soviet divisions between June and December of 1941. Two-thirds of those divisions were newly formed after the invasion had begun. It was a disastrous failure of military intelligence, which correctly estimated the size of the Soviet field army but incorrectly judged that the Soviet government would only be able to equip 50 more divisions during a 20 week campaign.

    Even if France had the time and space to form new divisions, they didn’t have the manpower. On 10 May 1940 there were 94 French divisions constituting 2.2 million men facing the Germans, along with more facing the Italians (five divisions constituting 185,000 men) and in the colonies (11 divisions in North Africa, three in the Levant). There was also around another 300,000 men in the navy and air force.

    France did have millions more trained reservists and was in fact in the process of calling them up, retraining them, equipping them, and forming new divisions. But it should be noted that many of these reservists were in fact middle aged men who had seen active duty years earlier. And unlike the USSR, France didn’t spend the 1930s stockpiling a vast horde of weapons. Rearmament was running at full tilt, and the country was importing more arms from the United States where possible.

    The population of metropolitan France in 1940 was around forty million.

    So France had already hit its demographic limit in terms of manpower either already in military service or trained for military service.

    That said, extraordinary mobilization measures of the Soviet government during the GPW under the most appalling, disastrous conditions imaginable are perhaps the most extreme ever in history, and it’s doubtful that the Third Republic was capable of a similar effort. Realistically the only other regimes capable of such an effort were Nazi Germany and Showa Japan.

  356. @Mr. Hack
    @AP


    So Mike Tyson is basically an Englishman?
     
    No, Mike Tyson is an American. Is Dr. Oz (light skinned of Turkish descent) more an American than say Dr. Ben Carson of African descent? All would agree that the 20th century was the "American" one, yet one rarely hears about an American nationality. Does it really exist, or is it mostly a construct of citizenship stamped on somebody's passport?

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @AP

    The real Americans are those who were here before the Revolutionary War.

    Black Americans constitute a separate nationality.

    Descendants of more recent European immigrants, who arrived in large numbers from circa 1845 – 1914, have assimilated in varying degrees with the old stock core Americans who settled, pioneered, and built the country. Some of them are nearly indistinguishable from the original Americans. There has also been mixing, so you have those who are both of old stock and Ellis Island descent.

    Those who are neither white nor black are in limbo and have no clear identity at all.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Thorfinnsson

    Have your own immigrant forebearers been here since before 1914, I suspect not, making you what?

    Why not just include those Americans as real Americans that came over on the Maylower?

    So, in the final analysis, Obama was never an American?

    How about Jesse Owens?

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson

  357. @Thorfinnsson
    @Mr. Hack

    The real Americans are those who were here before the Revolutionary War.

    Black Americans constitute a separate nationality.

    Descendants of more recent European immigrants, who arrived in large numbers from circa 1845 - 1914, have assimilated in varying degrees with the old stock core Americans who settled, pioneered, and built the country. Some of them are nearly indistinguishable from the original Americans. There has also been mixing, so you have those who are both of old stock and Ellis Island descent.

    Those who are neither white nor black are in limbo and have no clear identity at all.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    Have your own immigrant forebearers been here since before 1914, I suspect not, making you what?

    Why not just include those Americans as real Americans that came over on the Maylower?

    So, in the final analysis, Obama was never an American?

    How about Jesse Owens?

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    @Mr. Hack

    I have a weaker American nationality than those who came over on the Mayflower, which shouldn't be news. I have no connection of any kind to the great events of American history.

    To include only those who came over on the Mayflower would limit the definition of American to New England Puritans (or rather their descendants). There were early settlers from a number of different parts of Britain and the Netherlands who underwent ethnogenesis starting in the middle of the 18th century. Albion's Seed is the classic text that explores this and defines four folkways.

    There was also a later Southern ethnogenesis that formed a distinct Southern nation, but its effort to break off was thwarted.

    Obama is half-Kenyan and half-American, and he wants to be a black American but is not actually one of them.

    Jesse Owens was a black American, which again, is a distinct nationality from white Americans.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  358. @Mr. Hack
    @Thorfinnsson

    Have your own immigrant forebearers been here since before 1914, I suspect not, making you what?

    Why not just include those Americans as real Americans that came over on the Maylower?

    So, in the final analysis, Obama was never an American?

    How about Jesse Owens?

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson

    I have a weaker American nationality than those who came over on the Mayflower, which shouldn’t be news. I have no connection of any kind to the great events of American history.

    To include only those who came over on the Mayflower would limit the definition of American to New England Puritans (or rather their descendants). There were early settlers from a number of different parts of Britain and the Netherlands who underwent ethnogenesis starting in the middle of the 18th century. Albion’s Seed is the classic text that explores this and defines four folkways.

    There was also a later Southern ethnogenesis that formed a distinct Southern nation, but its effort to break off was thwarted.

    Obama is half-Kenyan and half-American, and he wants to be a black American but is not actually one of them.

    Jesse Owens was a black American, which again, is a distinct nationality from white Americans.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Thorfinnsson


    To include only those who came over on the Mayflower would limit the definition of American to New England Puritans (or rather their descendants).
     
    So, you've decided to include all of those who came before 1910? That would seem to include most all of Black-Americans that you choose to characterize as a separate nationality? Why not include them in an all encompasing nationality, like indeed almost all Americans do today? Haven't they earned this right through their contributions to this society? If not, why not set-up some sort of litmus test that also includes/excludes certain white groups too. Some, at this site (not I) would argue that due to a lesser overall national IQ, people of Balkan descent are somehow less Slavic. Perhaps, they aren't made of the right stuff to be considered as Americans too? How about semitic peoples? Your method seems too arbitrary and untenable in today's world. Who would be involved in setting up these strange litmus tests anyway? Some might even characterize this stuff as kooky? :-)

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @RadicalCenter

  359. @reiner Tor
    @AnonFromTN

    The USSR was big, and the Soviet citizens numerous, so could afford to lose even more catastrophic losses than France. More Soviet soldiers fell into German captivity in the first few months of the war than even existed in the French army. Within three months the Germans captured an area almost twice as large as France, despite the logistics being way more difficult and distances larger than in France.

    Being big is a big advantage in war, but it’s not a virtue.

    Replies: @neutral, @AnonFromTN

    Being big is not a virtue. Refusing to surrender is. Within a month Nazi armies were way behind their Barbarossa schedule. Smolensk stalled German offensive by two months (July 10 – September 10, 1941). France was defeated in a shorter period of time, within seven weeks. The only reason for that is because France folded, while the USSR did not. Much weaker Poland under attack from both Nazi Germany and the USSR resisted almost as long as France. Now, the trick question: who were despicable cowards?

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    @AnonFromTN

    The reason is that the Germans pocketed the bulk of the British and French armies and destroyed them, making military defense of the rest of metropolitan France untenable.

    In German parlance their operations in the summer of 1940 are traditionally known as the sickle cut:

    https://image.slidesharecdn.com/lecture-finesthour-nechurchillians-may2010-100510173648-phpapp01/95/lecture-finest-hour-new-england-churchillians-may-2010-34-728.jpg?cb=1273513130

    There were more French divisions, but every military man knew they had insufficient numbers of men and equipment remaining to do much more than delay the Germans in overrunning the entirety of France. Preferring to stop the slaughter, the French stopped the fighting.

    The Polish Army was completely liquidated by the Wehrmacht in three weeks, and then suffered the added blow of the Red Army invading from behind. The Poles didn't sue for peace because Poles are stubborn mules, which has pros and cons.

    The Soviet Union suffered a series of horrific military disasters during Operation Barbarossa, but the Germans were never able to destroy the entire Red Army. The divisions that were destroyed were replaced by new formations, which the Soviets were able to form for three reasons:

    1 - The vast size of the USSR meant that the Soviet government retained access to manpower
    2 - The USSR's large population meant that despite the German advances the majority of the population remained under government control
    3 - The USSR spent the 1930s stockpiling more military equipment than any other country

    It's unseemly to denigrate the French like this. The idea that they were cowards is usually something you hear from double-digit IQ Boomer & Silent Americans convinced that Tom Hanks single-handedly liberated the cowardly French.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

    , @Blinky Bill
    @AnonFromTN

    The Russians truly have warrior spirit.

    German field marshal Paul Ludwig Ewald von Kleist

    “From the very beginning, the Russians proved themselves first-class warriors. Our successes in the first months of the war can be explained by better training. Having gained combat experience, the Russians became first-class soldiers, and they fought with exceptional perseverance and had astounding endurance."

    Napoleon Bonaparte

    “The most formidable army cannot successfully wage a war against an entire nation that has decided to vanquish or die"

    Replies: @AnonFromTN, @Blinky Bill

  360. @AnonFromTN
    @reiner Tor

    Being big is not a virtue. Refusing to surrender is. Within a month Nazi armies were way behind their Barbarossa schedule. Smolensk stalled German offensive by two months (July 10 – September 10, 1941). France was defeated in a shorter period of time, within seven weeks. The only reason for that is because France folded, while the USSR did not. Much weaker Poland under attack from both Nazi Germany and the USSR resisted almost as long as France. Now, the trick question: who were despicable cowards?

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @Blinky Bill

    The reason is that the Germans pocketed the bulk of the British and French armies and destroyed them, making military defense of the rest of metropolitan France untenable.

    In German parlance their operations in the summer of 1940 are traditionally known as the sickle cut:

    There were more French divisions, but every military man knew they had insufficient numbers of men and equipment remaining to do much more than delay the Germans in overrunning the entirety of France. Preferring to stop the slaughter, the French stopped the fighting.

    The Polish Army was completely liquidated by the Wehrmacht in three weeks, and then suffered the added blow of the Red Army invading from behind. The Poles didn’t sue for peace because Poles are stubborn mules, which has pros and cons.

    The Soviet Union suffered a series of horrific military disasters during Operation Barbarossa, but the Germans were never able to destroy the entire Red Army. The divisions that were destroyed were replaced by new formations, which the Soviets were able to form for three reasons:

    1 – The vast size of the USSR meant that the Soviet government retained access to manpower
    2 – The USSR’s large population meant that despite the German advances the majority of the population remained under government control
    3 – The USSR spent the 1930s stockpiling more military equipment than any other country

    It’s unseemly to denigrate the French like this. The idea that they were cowards is usually something you hear from double-digit IQ Boomer & Silent Americans convinced that Tom Hanks single-handedly liberated the cowardly French.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    @Thorfinnsson

    So, you are saying that the French were wrong to be ashamed of their country’s performance in WWII, and to convict of treason and jail for life (whatever remained of it) their Maréchal Pétain? Did you try telling that to the French?

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson

  361. @Thorfinnsson
    @AnonFromTN

    The reason is that the Germans pocketed the bulk of the British and French armies and destroyed them, making military defense of the rest of metropolitan France untenable.

    In German parlance their operations in the summer of 1940 are traditionally known as the sickle cut:

    https://image.slidesharecdn.com/lecture-finesthour-nechurchillians-may2010-100510173648-phpapp01/95/lecture-finest-hour-new-england-churchillians-may-2010-34-728.jpg?cb=1273513130

    There were more French divisions, but every military man knew they had insufficient numbers of men and equipment remaining to do much more than delay the Germans in overrunning the entirety of France. Preferring to stop the slaughter, the French stopped the fighting.

    The Polish Army was completely liquidated by the Wehrmacht in three weeks, and then suffered the added blow of the Red Army invading from behind. The Poles didn't sue for peace because Poles are stubborn mules, which has pros and cons.

    The Soviet Union suffered a series of horrific military disasters during Operation Barbarossa, but the Germans were never able to destroy the entire Red Army. The divisions that were destroyed were replaced by new formations, which the Soviets were able to form for three reasons:

    1 - The vast size of the USSR meant that the Soviet government retained access to manpower
    2 - The USSR's large population meant that despite the German advances the majority of the population remained under government control
    3 - The USSR spent the 1930s stockpiling more military equipment than any other country

    It's unseemly to denigrate the French like this. The idea that they were cowards is usually something you hear from double-digit IQ Boomer & Silent Americans convinced that Tom Hanks single-handedly liberated the cowardly French.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

    So, you are saying that the French were wrong to be ashamed of their country’s performance in WWII, and to convict of treason and jail for life (whatever remained of it) their Maréchal Pétain? Did you try telling that to the French?

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    @AnonFromTN

    I think it's quite natural to feel ashamed of defeat, and the French made mistakes in the summer of 1940 which contributed to their defeat. But mistakes happen in war, and there is no reason for them to be ashamed of the French Army.

    And yes, they were wrong to try and convict Marshal Petain for treason, and there were many Frenchmen who felt so at that time and still feel that way today. France was beaten, and French leaders rightly wondered why exactly they should stay in the war for the benefit of the Anglo-Saxons. A pro-Petain Frenchman actually comments on AK's blog from time to time (Guillaume Tell).

    What the French ought to feel ashamed about is making false promises to the Poles and then sitting on their hands when most of the German Army was in Poland.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

  362. @AnonFromTN
    @Thorfinnsson

    So, you are saying that the French were wrong to be ashamed of their country’s performance in WWII, and to convict of treason and jail for life (whatever remained of it) their Maréchal Pétain? Did you try telling that to the French?

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson

    I think it’s quite natural to feel ashamed of defeat, and the French made mistakes in the summer of 1940 which contributed to their defeat. But mistakes happen in war, and there is no reason for them to be ashamed of the French Army.

    And yes, they were wrong to try and convict Marshal Petain for treason, and there were many Frenchmen who felt so at that time and still feel that way today. France was beaten, and French leaders rightly wondered why exactly they should stay in the war for the benefit of the Anglo-Saxons. A pro-Petain Frenchman actually comments on AK’s blog from time to time (Guillaume Tell).

    What the French ought to feel ashamed about is making false promises to the Poles and then sitting on their hands when most of the German Army was in Poland.

    • Agree: utu
    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    @Thorfinnsson

    Sounds plausible. Victory has many fathers, whereas defeat is always an orphan. So, your version is that the French found a scapegoat to channel their shame to by blaming him for everything. I wouldn’t be surprised.

    As to logistics and weather, the memoirs of Manstein about Stalingrad battle are very revealing. He wrote (literally) that there were no roads, the mud was so deep that the tanks got stuck, and on top of everything there appeared Soviet tanks. He did not see the contradiction there, apparently. As the Russian saying puts it, his balls always impede a bad dancer.

  363. I almost forgot to mention evil Putler’s war on women!

    https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/04/09/putins-war-on-women/

    • Replies: @Anonymoose
    @TheTotallyAnonymous

    Is that 12000 women killed a year figure drawn straight from these people’s asses? That number is higher than the total number of murders each year.

  364. @Thorfinnsson
    @Mr. Hack

    I have a weaker American nationality than those who came over on the Mayflower, which shouldn't be news. I have no connection of any kind to the great events of American history.

    To include only those who came over on the Mayflower would limit the definition of American to New England Puritans (or rather their descendants). There were early settlers from a number of different parts of Britain and the Netherlands who underwent ethnogenesis starting in the middle of the 18th century. Albion's Seed is the classic text that explores this and defines four folkways.

    There was also a later Southern ethnogenesis that formed a distinct Southern nation, but its effort to break off was thwarted.

    Obama is half-Kenyan and half-American, and he wants to be a black American but is not actually one of them.

    Jesse Owens was a black American, which again, is a distinct nationality from white Americans.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    To include only those who came over on the Mayflower would limit the definition of American to New England Puritans (or rather their descendants).

    So, you’ve decided to include all of those who came before 1910? That would seem to include most all of Black-Americans that you choose to characterize as a separate nationality? Why not include them in an all encompasing nationality, like indeed almost all Americans do today? Haven’t they earned this right through their contributions to this society? If not, why not set-up some sort of litmus test that also includes/excludes certain white groups too. Some, at this site (not I) would argue that due to a lesser overall national IQ, people of Balkan descent are somehow less Slavic. Perhaps, they aren’t made of the right stuff to be considered as Americans too? How about semitic peoples? Your method seems too arbitrary and untenable in today’s world. Who would be involved in setting up these strange litmus tests anyway? Some might even characterize this stuff as kooky? 🙂

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    @Mr. Hack

    No, the core Americans are British and Dutch whites who arrived prior to 1776. Other whites who have arrived since that time have assimilated in varying degrees.

    I don't include blacks into an all-encompassing American nationality because that isn't their identity. Black identity in America is defined by the shared experience of slavery, Jim Crowe, the civil rights struggle, etc. They are at best ambivalent about the things that define white Americans, and are more typically hostile.

    Most Americans have been intensively propagandized and brainwashed for decades to deny the reality of race and ethnicity. In short, they're wrong, and their ancestors would've recognized that.

    Who said anything about test? We're talking about nationality rather than citizenship.

    I don't have a position on whether or not South Slavs are real slavs, though from now on it will be part of the large litany of insults I deploy against Balkanoid swine.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Dmitry

    , @RadicalCenter
    @Mr. Hack

    Most black “Americans” certainly don’t consider themselves to be part of the same nation and culture as us. And through decades of bitter experience and abuse at their hands, the feeling has become mutual for many of us, including those of us who weren’t raised with animus against them.

  365. @TheTotallyAnonymous
    I almost forgot to mention evil Putler's war on women!

    https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/04/09/putins-war-on-women/

    Replies: @Anonymoose

    Is that 12000 women killed a year figure drawn straight from these people’s asses? That number is higher than the total number of murders each year.

  366. @AnonFromTN
    @reiner Tor

    Being big is not a virtue. Refusing to surrender is. Within a month Nazi armies were way behind their Barbarossa schedule. Smolensk stalled German offensive by two months (July 10 – September 10, 1941). France was defeated in a shorter period of time, within seven weeks. The only reason for that is because France folded, while the USSR did not. Much weaker Poland under attack from both Nazi Germany and the USSR resisted almost as long as France. Now, the trick question: who were despicable cowards?

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @Blinky Bill

    The Russians truly have warrior spirit.

    German field marshal Paul Ludwig Ewald von Kleist

    “From the very beginning, the Russians proved themselves first-class warriors. Our successes in the first months of the war can be explained by better training. Having gained combat experience, the Russians became first-class soldiers, and they fought with exceptional perseverance and had astounding endurance.”

    Napoleon Bonaparte

    “The most formidable army cannot successfully wage a war against an entire nation that has decided to vanquish or die”

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    @Blinky Bill

    My point exactly. Toys don’t win wars, people do. Look at Afghanistan today: NATO troops with highly sophisticated and ridiculously expensive toys are afraid to venture out of their heavily fortified bases, whereas Taliban with Kalashnikovs and primeval warrior spirit roam the country freely.

    , @Blinky Bill
    @Blinky Bill

    www.visit-petersburg.ru/media/uploads/event/2582/2582_cover.jpg.840x525_q95_crop_upscale.jpg

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

  367. @Thorfinnsson
    @AnonFromTN

    I think it's quite natural to feel ashamed of defeat, and the French made mistakes in the summer of 1940 which contributed to their defeat. But mistakes happen in war, and there is no reason for them to be ashamed of the French Army.

    And yes, they were wrong to try and convict Marshal Petain for treason, and there were many Frenchmen who felt so at that time and still feel that way today. France was beaten, and French leaders rightly wondered why exactly they should stay in the war for the benefit of the Anglo-Saxons. A pro-Petain Frenchman actually comments on AK's blog from time to time (Guillaume Tell).

    What the French ought to feel ashamed about is making false promises to the Poles and then sitting on their hands when most of the German Army was in Poland.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

    Sounds plausible. Victory has many fathers, whereas defeat is always an orphan. So, your version is that the French found a scapegoat to channel their shame to by blaming him for everything. I wouldn’t be surprised.

    As to logistics and weather, the memoirs of Manstein about Stalingrad battle are very revealing. He wrote (literally) that there were no roads, the mud was so deep that the tanks got stuck, and on top of everything there appeared Soviet tanks. He did not see the contradiction there, apparently. As the Russian saying puts it, his balls always impede a bad dancer.

  368. @Blinky Bill
    @AnonFromTN

    The Russians truly have warrior spirit.

    German field marshal Paul Ludwig Ewald von Kleist

    “From the very beginning, the Russians proved themselves first-class warriors. Our successes in the first months of the war can be explained by better training. Having gained combat experience, the Russians became first-class soldiers, and they fought with exceptional perseverance and had astounding endurance."

    Napoleon Bonaparte

    “The most formidable army cannot successfully wage a war against an entire nation that has decided to vanquish or die"

    Replies: @AnonFromTN, @Blinky Bill

    My point exactly. Toys don’t win wars, people do. Look at Afghanistan today: NATO troops with highly sophisticated and ridiculously expensive toys are afraid to venture out of their heavily fortified bases, whereas Taliban with Kalashnikovs and primeval warrior spirit roam the country freely.

  369. @Blinky Bill
    @AnonFromTN

    The Russians truly have warrior spirit.

    German field marshal Paul Ludwig Ewald von Kleist

    “From the very beginning, the Russians proved themselves first-class warriors. Our successes in the first months of the war can be explained by better training. Having gained combat experience, the Russians became first-class soldiers, and they fought with exceptional perseverance and had astounding endurance."

    Napoleon Bonaparte

    “The most formidable army cannot successfully wage a war against an entire nation that has decided to vanquish or die"

    Replies: @AnonFromTN, @Blinky Bill

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    @Blinky Bill

    Yea, the spirit is still there. Once in a century, Europe unites, makes war on Russia, gets beaten to pulp, and then slithers back into its hole and complains. Nineteenth century – Napoleon; twentieth century – Hitler, twenty first century - ?

    Replies: @Denis, @reiner Tor

  370. @Mr. Hack
    @Thorfinnsson


    To include only those who came over on the Mayflower would limit the definition of American to New England Puritans (or rather their descendants).
     
    So, you've decided to include all of those who came before 1910? That would seem to include most all of Black-Americans that you choose to characterize as a separate nationality? Why not include them in an all encompasing nationality, like indeed almost all Americans do today? Haven't they earned this right through their contributions to this society? If not, why not set-up some sort of litmus test that also includes/excludes certain white groups too. Some, at this site (not I) would argue that due to a lesser overall national IQ, people of Balkan descent are somehow less Slavic. Perhaps, they aren't made of the right stuff to be considered as Americans too? How about semitic peoples? Your method seems too arbitrary and untenable in today's world. Who would be involved in setting up these strange litmus tests anyway? Some might even characterize this stuff as kooky? :-)

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @RadicalCenter

    No, the core Americans are British and Dutch whites who arrived prior to 1776. Other whites who have arrived since that time have assimilated in varying degrees.

    I don’t include blacks into an all-encompassing American nationality because that isn’t their identity. Black identity in America is defined by the shared experience of slavery, Jim Crowe, the civil rights struggle, etc. They are at best ambivalent about the things that define white Americans, and are more typically hostile.

    Most Americans have been intensively propagandized and brainwashed for decades to deny the reality of race and ethnicity. In short, they’re wrong, and their ancestors would’ve recognized that.

    Who said anything about test? We’re talking about nationality rather than citizenship.

    I don’t have a position on whether or not South Slavs are real slavs, though from now on it will be part of the large litany of insults I deploy against Balkanoid swine.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Thorfinnsson

    So folks like Dr. Ben Carson, Dr. Condoleezza Rice, Four Star General Colin Powell etc; etc; are in your opinion "ambivalent about things that define White Americans, and are more typically hostile"?

    Seems like a pretty contrived opinion based on stereotypes developed in the past. Well, we're not going back to Jim Crowe or slavery, so I think that it's time to try and integrate any of those that do fit into your negative stereotypes. Skin color is a function of genetics, like hair color or the color of ones eyes, not a determnant in and of itself of social values or the ability to advance socio economically.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson

    , @Dmitry
    @Thorfinnsson

    "Core Americans" - are native nationalities like Sioux or Cherokee, who have some thousands of years of connection to the country.

    The rest of population of America, are descendants of a random mix of peasants from European countries, or even Africa - who arrived in the country by almost accidental impulse of one of their ancestors, and have only recent, if any, real connection to its land.

    And that is precisely stimulus for why America is so innovative - a country of alienated immigrants, who are constantly revolutionizing their way of life, partly as an attempt to recompense the terror of living on the wrong side of the Atlantic Ocean from their heritage.

    -

    In my opinion. apotheosis of the "American project", are probably the Mormons of Utah, and Mitt Romney in particular.

    In Utah, there is a completely artificial and bizarre nationality, based on believing Jesus had emigrated to America 2000 years ago (https://www.comeuntochrist.org/blog/what-jesus-christs-visit-to-the-americas-means-to-us ).

    And yet somehow Mormons of Utah have created a more successful life on idiotic, artificial soil, than people living in normal Europe. This is an impressive example of "will to power" in America.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @Gerard1234, @Kent Nationalist

  371. @Blinky Bill
    @Blinky Bill

    www.visit-petersburg.ru/media/uploads/event/2582/2582_cover.jpg.840x525_q95_crop_upscale.jpg

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

    Yea, the spirit is still there. Once in a century, Europe unites, makes war on Russia, gets beaten to pulp, and then slithers back into its hole and complains. Nineteenth century – Napoleon; twentieth century – Hitler, twenty first century – ?

    • Replies: @Denis
    @AnonFromTN


    Yea, the spirit is still there. Once in a century, Europe unites, makes war on Russia, gets beaten to pulp, and then slithers back into its hole and complains. Nineteenth century – Napoleon; twentieth century – Hitler, twenty first century – ?
     
    Let us keep our fingers crossed that that last one remains a question mark.
    , @reiner Tor
    @AnonFromTN


    Once in a century, Europe unites, makes war on Russia, gets beaten to pulp
     
    That's a pretty bad understanding of history. It's based on two cases, neither of which represented Europe "uniting" in any real way. In both cases the Anglos actually supported Russia (so maybe an equal case could be made that "once in a century, Anglos and Russians unite against the dominant European power to destroy it"), while the forces joining the dominant power were unwilling and/or low quality. (For example under Napoleon many Prussians left their armed forces to avoid serving Napoleon - which is why 1812-13 saw a certain General Carl von Clausewitz in the service of the Russian Tsar. You can imagine the enthusiasm shown by such forces.)

    Replies: @Kent Nationalist, @German_reader, @AnonFromTN

  372. @Thorfinnsson
    @Mr. Hack

    No, the core Americans are British and Dutch whites who arrived prior to 1776. Other whites who have arrived since that time have assimilated in varying degrees.

    I don't include blacks into an all-encompassing American nationality because that isn't their identity. Black identity in America is defined by the shared experience of slavery, Jim Crowe, the civil rights struggle, etc. They are at best ambivalent about the things that define white Americans, and are more typically hostile.

    Most Americans have been intensively propagandized and brainwashed for decades to deny the reality of race and ethnicity. In short, they're wrong, and their ancestors would've recognized that.

    Who said anything about test? We're talking about nationality rather than citizenship.

    I don't have a position on whether or not South Slavs are real slavs, though from now on it will be part of the large litany of insults I deploy against Balkanoid swine.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Dmitry

    So folks like Dr. Ben Carson, Dr. Condoleezza Rice, Four Star General Colin Powell etc; etc; are in your opinion “ambivalent about things that define White Americans, and are more typically hostile”?

    Seems like a pretty contrived opinion based on stereotypes developed in the past. Well, we’re not going back to Jim Crowe or slavery, so I think that it’s time to try and integrate any of those that do fit into your negative stereotypes. Skin color is a function of genetics, like hair color or the color of ones eyes, not a determnant in and of itself of social values or the ability to advance socio economically.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    @Mr. Hack



    So folks like Dr. Ben Carson, Dr. Condoleezza Rice, Four Star General Colin Powell etc; etc; are in your opinion “ambivalent about things that define White Americans, and are more typically hostile”?
     
    Colin Powell voted for Obama and actually has Jamaican origins. There's currently a major dispute within the black community about whether or not more recent black immigrants (and their descendants) qualify as properly "black" in the American context. The nativist blacks push an identity that they alternatively call American Descendants of Slaves (ADOS) or Foundational Black Americans.

    As for the others, they're white-acting blacks. You probably know what the rest of the black community thinks of them. Similarly you can find some debased whites who are culturally negrized, commonly referred to as wiggers.


    Seems like a pretty contrived opinion based on stereotypes developed in the past. Well, we’re not going back to Jim Crowe or slavery, so I think that it’s time to try and integrate any of those that do fit into your negative stereotypes. Skin color is a function of genetics, like hair color or the color of ones eyes, not a determnant in and of itself of social values or the ability to advance socio economically.
     
    Herculean efforts have been made to integrate negroes. These efforts have failed for a variety of reasons, one of which is that blacks themselves do not want to be integrated as this means the eradication of their identity. They want the opportunities, privileges, and rights (and then some) available in America, but they very much want to remain black.

    Skin color by itself isn't a determinant of social values or the ability to advance socioeconomically, but is bound up with other genes which are.

    And personally, as a white man I would be opposed to successful integration of negroes as that means miscegenation and thus the undesirable introgression of negroid genes into our gene pool.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  373. @AP
    @Mikhail


    Your understanding of the definition of collaborator is mistaken
     
    Oxford English dictionary of the term:

    https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/us/definition/english/collaborator

    a person who helps the enemy in a war, when they have taken control of the person’s country

    Krasnov was never a Soviet citizen, he was a sworn enemy of the Bolsheviks. The USSR was not his country.

    Vlasov, however, was a Soviet citizen, and indeed was a Soviet general.

    Google:

    a person who cooperates traitorously with an enemy; a defector.

    Krasnov did not defect from the Soviets; he was never one of them. Again, Vlasov was a Soviet general who changed sides.

    So Krasnov was not a collaborator, but Vlasov was, according to how that word is defined in the English language.

    (for similar reasons, as I explained, Bandera was not a collaborator either - like Krasnov, he was an ally of the Nazis)

    :::::::::::::::::

    It is understood that the word collaborator is often used to simply mean, "anyone who worked with the Germans." But it is not the proper use, as seen by the definition of the word. The perversion of language is an unfortunate habit of propagandists. You shouldn't do it, even if you are a Vlasovite.

    Replies: @Mikhail

    You’re technically wrong again, while carrying on like a propagandist with your Vlasovite label.

    Collaborate means to work with someone or an entity. A person collaborating in such a situation isn’t by default a traitor to someone or something else. As an example, the word collaborate (collaborated, collaborates, collaborating) has been used in relation to co-authors, who aren’t necessarily betraying anything/anyone in their collaboration with each other. Krasnov was if anything more of Nazi collaborator than Vlasov.

    Vlasov was for a strong Russia – a point which got him in trouble with some of the Nazi hierarchy. Within his ranks was the view that Stalin betrayed Soviet as well as Russian ideals, thereby making Stalin the traitor. At least part or all of that perspective is one that finds support among some on the left, as well as with pro-Russian/anti-Communist advocacy.

    Krasnov fluctuated between supporting a unitary Russia and the factually challenged view that the Cossacks are a separate ethnic group. He went along with the Nazi imagery of a Cossackia, something which the anti-Russian pro-Bandera Captive Nations Committee pushed for as well.

    BTW, the ROCOR and ROC-MP have expressed differences of opinion over Vlasov. The sovok view typically sees Vlasov as a traitor. Likewise, the pro-Bandera svidos don’t like him as well. Sovoks and svidos tend to not like pro-Russian/anti-Communist advocacy.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Mikhail


    You’re technically wrong again, while carrying on like a propagandist with your Vlasovite label.
     
    Are you a Vlasovite or not? Answer the question.

    Collaborate means to work with someone or an entity.
     
    In the context of World War II this is not how it is used.

    It is sad that English is the only language you speak, yet you need an English lesson.

    Here are the Miriam-Webster definitions American English):

    1. to work jointly with others or together especially in an intellectual endeavor

    2. to cooperate with or willingly assist an enemy of one's country and especially an occupying force

    3. to cooperate with an agency or instrumentality with which one is not immediately connected

    Only point 2 is relevant to this discussion about World War II.

    Vlasov was a Soviet citizen and a Soviet general. The USSR was very much his country. He cooperated and willingly assisted the Germans who invaded and occupied his country, the USSR.

    Krasnov was never a Soviet citizen and was an avowed enemy of the Soviet state since its foundation. His cooperation with the Germans therefore cannot be classified as collaboration.

    Oxford (British English) definition of collaboration:

    https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/collaboration

    1. the act of working with another person or group of people to create or produce something

    2. a piece of work produced by two or more people or groups working together

    3. the act of helping the enemy during a war when they have taken control of your country

    Same thing applies.

    Why do I predict you won't be grateful for the language lesson? :-)

    :::::::::::

    Vlasov may have made whatever excuses he wanted, the fact is that by definition he was a collaborator, while Krasnov was not.

    Replies: @Mikhail

  374. @reiner Tor
    @neutral

    The Soviet armed forces were much bigger, and the terrain more difficult for an attacker. So of course the battles were bound to be more ferocious.

    Replies: @Korenchkin

    The Germans had numerical superiority in many battles on the Eastern Front at the start of the war

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @Korenchkin

    And the Germans advanced dozens of kilometers every day. What is your point?

    Replies: @Korenchkin

  375. @Korenchkin
    @reiner Tor

    The Germans had numerical superiority in many battles on the Eastern Front at the start of the war

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    And the Germans advanced dozens of kilometers every day. What is your point?

    • Replies: @Korenchkin
    @reiner Tor

    Well in those offensives and during the Soviet counter-offensives the Germans lost some of the most veteran of their troops, due to ferocious fighting
    The Germans still had the early (and temporary) numerical advantage, element of surprise and more experience to help them tip the scales during Barbarossa before getting outmatched by the end of 1941 and the operation failing

    I do dislike applying generalizations across the entire front since it had manpower, weapons and resources drawn from all across Northern Eurasia, meaning that wildly specific scenarios were playing out on certain sections of the front
    But whatever,
    in general the Soviets fought harder then the French but in general the Germans were also applying way more pressure on them then the they ever did on the French and officers from both sides in general were willing to go above and beyond to motivate their troops, from encouraging of hatred to blocking divisions (both sides used both tactics at different points of the war)

    Replies: @reiner Tor

  376. @Mr. Hack
    @Thorfinnsson

    So folks like Dr. Ben Carson, Dr. Condoleezza Rice, Four Star General Colin Powell etc; etc; are in your opinion "ambivalent about things that define White Americans, and are more typically hostile"?

    Seems like a pretty contrived opinion based on stereotypes developed in the past. Well, we're not going back to Jim Crowe or slavery, so I think that it's time to try and integrate any of those that do fit into your negative stereotypes. Skin color is a function of genetics, like hair color or the color of ones eyes, not a determnant in and of itself of social values or the ability to advance socio economically.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson

    So folks like Dr. Ben Carson, Dr. Condoleezza Rice, Four Star General Colin Powell etc; etc; are in your opinion “ambivalent about things that define White Americans, and are more typically hostile”?

    Colin Powell voted for Obama and actually has Jamaican origins. There’s currently a major dispute within the black community about whether or not more recent black immigrants (and their descendants) qualify as properly “black” in the American context. The nativist blacks push an identity that they alternatively call American Descendants of Slaves (ADOS) or Foundational Black Americans.

    As for the others, they’re white-acting blacks. You probably know what the rest of the black community thinks of them. Similarly you can find some debased whites who are culturally negrized, commonly referred to as wiggers.

    Seems like a pretty contrived opinion based on stereotypes developed in the past. Well, we’re not going back to Jim Crowe or slavery, so I think that it’s time to try and integrate any of those that do fit into your negative stereotypes. Skin color is a function of genetics, like hair color or the color of ones eyes, not a determnant in and of itself of social values or the ability to advance socio economically.

    Herculean efforts have been made to integrate negroes. These efforts have failed for a variety of reasons, one of which is that blacks themselves do not want to be integrated as this means the eradication of their identity. They want the opportunities, privileges, and rights (and then some) available in America, but they very much want to remain black.

    Skin color by itself isn’t a determinant of social values or the ability to advance socioeconomically, but is bound up with other genes which are.

    And personally, as a white man I would be opposed to successful integration of negroes as that means miscegenation and thus the undesirable introgression of negroid genes into our gene pool.

    • Agree: RadicalCenter
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Thorfinnsson


    blacks themselves do not want to be integrated as this means the eradication of their identity. They want the opportunities, privileges, and rights (and then some) available in America, but they very much want to remain black.
     
    http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2009/HEALTH/07/06/skin.color.vitiligo/art.mjsplit.gi.jpg

    Exactly which "opportunities, privileges and rights" was Michael Jackson seeking during his amazing skin color transformation? :-)

  377. @Epigon
    @TheTotallyAnonymous

    There is little point in discussing Balkan present here, let alone Balkan history. Tone down your svidomism, as it seems you readily identify foreign svidomism while remaining oblivious of your own.

    The supposedly “fake” countries and nations you call out are not fake as long as they are live and kicking (Serb ass). Ranting about them and their origin has no benefits - there are dozens of more useful and purposeful activities you should be doing instead - finishing your studies or setting up your business, for example.

    As WW2 and especially WW1 aftermath in the region have demonstrated, expanding your borders through military victory and approval of Great Powers is not enough. I couldn’t stress this more - Serbs have both megalomania, delusions of grandeur and (strategic) shortsightedness in them, this extending from (opportunistic) commoners to political elite. Serbia hadn’t even built an internal, national consensus and a structured society since 1878 when it expanded in 1912-1913 and 1918-1919, overextending with disastrous results. Any sane individual would have told the Slovenians (Natlačen) and especially Croatians (Starčević, Frank, Radić, Vražja divizija, Pilar) to go fuck themselves and deal with Hungarians, Italians and Austrians, settling their borders in the process as they wished. Instead, the retarded Serbs accepted former AH enemy officers, promoted them and inducted into military service. People invading Kingdom of Serbia and participating in mass war crimes in Mačva were allowed to participate in political life of Yugoslavia - naturally they sabotaged it and blocked Parliament in 1919-1921, resulting in king suspending it. This was mirrored in 1944-1946 regarding Yugocommunist Tito, AH corporal from AH invasion of Serbia.

    By my estimates, Serbia needs several decades of peace and respite to remove anomalies and impurities from society and mentality, form a coherent national idea and forge unity comparable to Croat one. Which means that constructive criticism, ideas, innovation and work dedication take precedence over jingoism, svidomism, score settling with neighbours etc. With NATO protective umbrella and different degrees of US, UK and German interests in the surroundings, any conflict would result in a total disaster.

    Observe how easily yet skillfully AP pushed your buttons, hit you for maximum effect, and consider the implications of such actions-reactions on an international, geopolitical plane. Provocateurs count on impulsive reactions, why do you think a Croat was ridiculing and making fun of 1+ million dead Serb of WW1 in Yugoslav parliament in 1928, offering to buy off spilled Serb blood?

    Replies: @peterAUS

    Good comment.

    Especially:

    …..to remove anomalies and impurities from society and mentality, form a coherent national idea and forge unity comparable to Croat one. Which means that constructive criticism, ideas, innovation and work dedication…..

    I guess you guys (your types, that is….tiny minority there, apparently), have your work cut out for you.

    So, a question for you: orientation towards West or East?

    My impression is that a lot of problems your tribe has is related to the automatic, willful, rejection of whatever comes from the West. Whatever. Innovation and work dedication, for example. Which is funny because Serbs, in the West, could be quite innovative and definitely hard working.

    I guess you are talking about shift in the culture.
    If my guess is correct, would you care to expand on that?

    BTW. a couple of Serbs I know, here, do share your sentiment. Well, that’s why they are here, in fact. Not there.

  378. I only ever see Ukranians, Mongol fetishists and idiot Nordicists(the kind that want Russia to be reduced to just Novgorod-Moscow-Petrograd) claim certain Slavs are not real Slavs because
    I figure this deserves some discussion

    There is no Slav exclusive genetic makeup, partly because Slavs aren’t inbred Ashkenazis and partly because Slavs inhabited the area from Szeczin in the Baltic to Salonica on the Aegean and from the Elbe to the Pacific
    This does not mean that any Churka can claim to be a Slav, but
    Large chunks of German, Romanian, Albanian, Hungarian and Finno-Baltic peoples have identical genetic makeups as certain Polish, Ukranian, Serbian and Bulgarian groups, this is partly due to Communist regimes forcing minorities to convert to certain ethnicities and partly due to natural exchanges of population that happen gradually over centuries (it’s mostly the latter)

    If we split the Slavs into 2 groups the North and South (Divided by Hungary and Romania) then the most distinct haplogroup is R1a for Northern and I2a for Southern
    Anatoly himself is only 50% R1a master race, but I doubt he or anyone else would call him a half-Slav unless they were very autistic or just doing it for the sake of trolling

    Karlin would probably like some sort of set of genetic lines based around gene usefulness (high IQ, good health, etc.) getting defined for each group and Government policy encouraging procreation of certain genes over others, perhaps editing them into future generations, so every child in the Slavic Meme Union is as Blonde and intelligent as an R1a IndoEuro and tall and strong as a I2 ProtoEuro (apply narrative and stereotypes at your leisure)

    • Replies: @AP
    @Korenchkin


    I only ever see Ukranians, Mongol fetishists and idiot Nordicists(the kind that want Russia to be reduced to just Novgorod-Moscow-Petrograd) claim certain Slavs are not real Slavs
     
    So do geneticists:

    https://www.nature.com/articles/jhg200754.pdf?proof=true

    If we split the Slavs into 2 groups the North and South (Divided by Hungary and Romania) then the most distinct haplogroup is R1a for Northern and I2a for Southern
    Anatoly himself is only 50% R1a master race,

     

    50% is the Slavic baseline. Different Slavic nations vary from thjso baseline - Russians are mixed a little with Finnic people, Poles with Germans, Ukrainians with Balkanoids, Belarussians with Baltic people (who are very much like Slavs anyways). But all of these people are Slavs.

    People like Serbs are not Slavs with some other admixture. They are the "other" , with some Slav admixture.

    Slavic language came from people moving south, which is why Slavic-speaking Balkanoids are about 25% descended from those northerners while non-Slavic speaking Balkanoid Albanians are not.

    Saying "If we split the Slavs into 2 groups the North and South " is like saying "if you split Spanish people into two groups European and Central American" and pretending that Aztec/Mayan ancestry is one type of Spanish ancestry. No.

    Replies: @Korenchkin

    , @Anatoly Karlin
    @Korenchkin


    Anatoly himself is only 50% R1a master race, but I doubt he or anyone else would call him a half-Slav unless they were very autistic or just doing it for the sake of trolling
     
    ~65% Slav.

    https://twitter.com/akarlin88/status/1156653109894103048
  379. @reiner Tor
    @Korenchkin

    And the Germans advanced dozens of kilometers every day. What is your point?

    Replies: @Korenchkin

    Well in those offensives and during the Soviet counter-offensives the Germans lost some of the most veteran of their troops, due to ferocious fighting
    The Germans still had the early (and temporary) numerical advantage, element of surprise and more experience to help them tip the scales during Barbarossa before getting outmatched by the end of 1941 and the operation failing

    I do dislike applying generalizations across the entire front since it had manpower, weapons and resources drawn from all across Northern Eurasia, meaning that wildly specific scenarios were playing out on certain sections of the front
    But whatever,
    in general the Soviets fought harder then the French but in general the Germans were also applying way more pressure on them then the they ever did on the French and officers from both sides in general were willing to go above and beyond to motivate their troops, from encouraging of hatred to blocking divisions (both sides used both tactics at different points of the war)

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @Korenchkin

    When and how could the French have fought harder? After roughly a week their war was lost. The point when simple soldiers understand it (and this information travels incredibly fast from headquarters to the simplest soldier - an example would be Germany in the aftermath of Ludendorff’s nervous breakdown), the army will disintegrate quickly, especially if they don’t think they are threatened with genocide (not the case in Soviet Russia or later in the war Nazi Germany, but definitely applies to France). It happened in Germany, Yugoslavia (1941 - do I have to explain it to a Serb?), France, everywhere.

    The Soviets stopped the German juggernaut when it outran its logistics, and then the rainy season halted the battle for two weeks. Then the Germans still managed to destroy huge army groups, but by November, far outside the limit of their logistics, they were finally halted by freshly raised new Soviet troops.

    As we (me and Thorfinnsson) wrote, the USSR was very big, and it had a very large population. France couldn’t have raised another army after the defeat of its troops, but it was overrun by the Germans anyway, so had no chance of doing so even if it had the population (which it didn’t).

    The USSR needed lots of efforts to improve the quality and raise the quantity of its troops, almost superhuman efforts. But it wouldn’t have been able to do so without being very big, having a very large population, and having allies elsewhere.

    (I used to spend a lot of time explaining the other side of the story, that the Soviets also needed to improve their quality, and that even seemingly stupid things like frontally attacking German strong points was not a sign of stupidity. But for some reason, maybe because it’s a Russian blog, I am mostly debating people who think that the Soviets were much better qualitatively than others or that they could have won on their own.)

    Replies: @reiner Tor

  380. @Thorfinnsson
    @Mr. Hack



    So folks like Dr. Ben Carson, Dr. Condoleezza Rice, Four Star General Colin Powell etc; etc; are in your opinion “ambivalent about things that define White Americans, and are more typically hostile”?
     
    Colin Powell voted for Obama and actually has Jamaican origins. There's currently a major dispute within the black community about whether or not more recent black immigrants (and their descendants) qualify as properly "black" in the American context. The nativist blacks push an identity that they alternatively call American Descendants of Slaves (ADOS) or Foundational Black Americans.

    As for the others, they're white-acting blacks. You probably know what the rest of the black community thinks of them. Similarly you can find some debased whites who are culturally negrized, commonly referred to as wiggers.


    Seems like a pretty contrived opinion based on stereotypes developed in the past. Well, we’re not going back to Jim Crowe or slavery, so I think that it’s time to try and integrate any of those that do fit into your negative stereotypes. Skin color is a function of genetics, like hair color or the color of ones eyes, not a determnant in and of itself of social values or the ability to advance socio economically.
     
    Herculean efforts have been made to integrate negroes. These efforts have failed for a variety of reasons, one of which is that blacks themselves do not want to be integrated as this means the eradication of their identity. They want the opportunities, privileges, and rights (and then some) available in America, but they very much want to remain black.

    Skin color by itself isn't a determinant of social values or the ability to advance socioeconomically, but is bound up with other genes which are.

    And personally, as a white man I would be opposed to successful integration of negroes as that means miscegenation and thus the undesirable introgression of negroid genes into our gene pool.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    blacks themselves do not want to be integrated as this means the eradication of their identity. They want the opportunities, privileges, and rights (and then some) available in America, but they very much want to remain black.


    Exactly which “opportunities, privileges and rights” was Michael Jackson seeking during his amazing skin color transformation? 🙂

  381. https://www.intellinews.com/zelenskiy-overtakes-putin
    -in-russian-popularity-polls-as-russians-become-increa
    singly-vocal-168133/?source=russia

    Also, something for you AK, from the The Conversation.
    “It is no surprise that, in the appending notes to The Year 4338, Odoevskii provides perhaps the very first methodology for a “general science of futurology”. He lays claim to being the first proper, self-conscious futurologist.”

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    @Rattus Norwegius

    Yea, polls are remarkably trustworthy. I remember how they predicted 90-95% probability of cackling hyena’s win in 2016. If it weren’t for the damn reality…

  382. @Korenchkin
    @reiner Tor

    Well in those offensives and during the Soviet counter-offensives the Germans lost some of the most veteran of their troops, due to ferocious fighting
    The Germans still had the early (and temporary) numerical advantage, element of surprise and more experience to help them tip the scales during Barbarossa before getting outmatched by the end of 1941 and the operation failing

    I do dislike applying generalizations across the entire front since it had manpower, weapons and resources drawn from all across Northern Eurasia, meaning that wildly specific scenarios were playing out on certain sections of the front
    But whatever,
    in general the Soviets fought harder then the French but in general the Germans were also applying way more pressure on them then the they ever did on the French and officers from both sides in general were willing to go above and beyond to motivate their troops, from encouraging of hatred to blocking divisions (both sides used both tactics at different points of the war)

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    When and how could the French have fought harder? After roughly a week their war was lost. The point when simple soldiers understand it (and this information travels incredibly fast from headquarters to the simplest soldier – an example would be Germany in the aftermath of Ludendorff’s nervous breakdown), the army will disintegrate quickly, especially if they don’t think they are threatened with genocide (not the case in Soviet Russia or later in the war Nazi Germany, but definitely applies to France). It happened in Germany, Yugoslavia (1941 – do I have to explain it to a Serb?), France, everywhere.

    The Soviets stopped the German juggernaut when it outran its logistics, and then the rainy season halted the battle for two weeks. Then the Germans still managed to destroy huge army groups, but by November, far outside the limit of their logistics, they were finally halted by freshly raised new Soviet troops.

    As we (me and Thorfinnsson) wrote, the USSR was very big, and it had a very large population. France couldn’t have raised another army after the defeat of its troops, but it was overrun by the Germans anyway, so had no chance of doing so even if it had the population (which it didn’t).

    The USSR needed lots of efforts to improve the quality and raise the quantity of its troops, almost superhuman efforts. But it wouldn’t have been able to do so without being very big, having a very large population, and having allies elsewhere.

    (I used to spend a lot of time explaining the other side of the story, that the Soviets also needed to improve their quality, and that even seemingly stupid things like frontally attacking German strong points was not a sign of stupidity. But for some reason, maybe because it’s a Russian blog, I am mostly debating people who think that the Soviets were much better qualitatively than others or that they could have won on their own.)

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @reiner Tor

    Russians are usually not thought of as supreme organizers, like, say, the Swiss, yet the war was an effort which they organized pretty well (after the initial setbacks).

    Replies: @Simpleguest

  383. @reiner Tor
    @Korenchkin

    When and how could the French have fought harder? After roughly a week their war was lost. The point when simple soldiers understand it (and this information travels incredibly fast from headquarters to the simplest soldier - an example would be Germany in the aftermath of Ludendorff’s nervous breakdown), the army will disintegrate quickly, especially if they don’t think they are threatened with genocide (not the case in Soviet Russia or later in the war Nazi Germany, but definitely applies to France). It happened in Germany, Yugoslavia (1941 - do I have to explain it to a Serb?), France, everywhere.

    The Soviets stopped the German juggernaut when it outran its logistics, and then the rainy season halted the battle for two weeks. Then the Germans still managed to destroy huge army groups, but by November, far outside the limit of their logistics, they were finally halted by freshly raised new Soviet troops.

    As we (me and Thorfinnsson) wrote, the USSR was very big, and it had a very large population. France couldn’t have raised another army after the defeat of its troops, but it was overrun by the Germans anyway, so had no chance of doing so even if it had the population (which it didn’t).

    The USSR needed lots of efforts to improve the quality and raise the quantity of its troops, almost superhuman efforts. But it wouldn’t have been able to do so without being very big, having a very large population, and having allies elsewhere.

    (I used to spend a lot of time explaining the other side of the story, that the Soviets also needed to improve their quality, and that even seemingly stupid things like frontally attacking German strong points was not a sign of stupidity. But for some reason, maybe because it’s a Russian blog, I am mostly debating people who think that the Soviets were much better qualitatively than others or that they could have won on their own.)

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    Russians are usually not thought of as supreme organizers, like, say, the Swiss, yet the war was an effort which they organized pretty well (after the initial setbacks).

    • Replies: @Simpleguest
    @reiner Tor

    "Russians are usually not thought of as supreme organizers, like, say, the Swiss, yet the war was an effort which they organized pretty well (after the initial setbacks)."


    What the hell are you talking about. Have the Swiss organized anything on scale the Russians have? Have the Swiss ever organized a thing, like say, running the Moscow subway with daily commute of around 7 million commuters. I believe this number is on par with the entire population of Switzerland. LOL.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

  384. @reiner Tor
    @reiner Tor

    Russians are usually not thought of as supreme organizers, like, say, the Swiss, yet the war was an effort which they organized pretty well (after the initial setbacks).

    Replies: @Simpleguest

    “Russians are usually not thought of as supreme organizers, like, say, the Swiss, yet the war was an effort which they organized pretty well (after the initial setbacks).”

    What the hell are you talking about. Have the Swiss organized anything on scale the Russians have? Have the Swiss ever organized a thing, like say, running the Moscow subway with daily commute of around 7 million commuters. I believe this number is on par with the entire population of Switzerland. LOL.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @Simpleguest

    The Swiss usually organize everything pretty well.

    Again, Russia being big is presented as a virtue. It is not.

    Replies: @Simpleguest

  385. @Simpleguest
    @reiner Tor

    "Russians are usually not thought of as supreme organizers, like, say, the Swiss, yet the war was an effort which they organized pretty well (after the initial setbacks)."


    What the hell are you talking about. Have the Swiss organized anything on scale the Russians have? Have the Swiss ever organized a thing, like say, running the Moscow subway with daily commute of around 7 million commuters. I believe this number is on par with the entire population of Switzerland. LOL.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    The Swiss usually organize everything pretty well.

    Again, Russia being big is presented as a virtue. It is not.

    • Replies: @Simpleguest
    @reiner Tor

    "The Swiss usually organize everything pretty well.
    Again, Russia being big is presented as a virtue. It is not."


    Not an argument.
    The question was, when have the Swiss organized anything on scale Russians have?
    And yes, Russia being big is a virtue. Many have tried to build and organize big countries but failed.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

  386. @reiner Tor
    @Simpleguest

    The Swiss usually organize everything pretty well.

    Again, Russia being big is presented as a virtue. It is not.

    Replies: @Simpleguest

    “The Swiss usually organize everything pretty well.
    Again, Russia being big is presented as a virtue. It is not.”

    Not an argument.
    The question was, when have the Swiss organized anything on scale Russians have?
    And yes, Russia being big is a virtue. Many have tried to build and organize big countries but failed.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @Simpleguest

    When have Russians organized anything as well as the Swiss do? The answer is never. Have Russians organized trains which are never (okay, rarely) late? In a very small corner of their country?

    Russia got big by being situated next to the steppe and Siberia. It was very bad until others elsewhere invented firearms, which the Russians adapted, and then could conquer the steppe nomads and Siberia relatively easily. (It also helped that the nomads empire was in the disintegration phase.) Russia would never have gotten that big in the middle of Europe cramped between other similar countries.

    Anyway, I cannot believe I’m here debating the very big brained idea that the Russians are better at organizing things than the Swiss.

    Replies: @anonymous coward, @Simpleguest, @AP, @melanf, @Anatoly Karlin, @anonymous coward

  387. @Mr. Hack
    @AP


    So Mike Tyson is basically an Englishman?
     
    No, Mike Tyson is an American. Is Dr. Oz (light skinned of Turkish descent) more an American than say Dr. Ben Carson of African descent? All would agree that the 20th century was the "American" one, yet one rarely hears about an American nationality. Does it really exist, or is it mostly a construct of citizenship stamped on somebody's passport?

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @AP

    America is not an ethnic nation but an idea-nation.

    So an English-speaking Carib from London is an Englishman?

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    @AP

    I don't agree with the proposition nation theory of America.

    There's a very simple problem with it--what about people who don't believe in the idea?

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @AP

    , @Mr. Hack
    @AP

    I don't know anymore. The whole idea of nation and nation state is becoming more and more meaningless as time goes on. We may lament this fact, but it does seem to be the way that it's going.

    At one time it wasn't uncommon (and still isn't) to have an American describe himself as a "Heinz 57" mix. This didn't seem to cause any problems because ususally all of the intermixed ethnicities were of white European background. The idea is now being stretched becasue there are so many other races involved in the mix today. Most white Americans don't seem to mind to mix - our cultural elite are only following a trend already well in motion for quite some time. I don't think that white nationalism is really all that popular in the US.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson

  388. @AP
    @Mr. Hack

    America is not an ethnic nation but an idea-nation.

    So an English-speaking Carib from London is an Englishman?

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @Mr. Hack

    I don’t agree with the proposition nation theory of America.

    There’s a very simple problem with it–what about people who don’t believe in the idea?

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Thorfinnsson

    You have recited the Pledge of Allegiance, haven't you?

    I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, one nation under God indivisible with liberty and justice for all (not just white Americans of English or Dutch ancestry!).

    Are you admitting that you don't really believe in it? You may be guilty of treason - think about it.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson

    , @AP
    @Thorfinnsson


    I don’t agree with the proposition nation theory of America.
     
    It is based on an idea created by 18th century protestant Anglo-Saxon people and thus inseparable from their particular culture. But others who assimilate into this culture are part of it, also. It is of course easier for Europeans to do so than it is for others but it is possible for anyone. Simplistically, English language, Protestant work ethic, free market ideal, limited representative government ideal, Christianity (in a form that supports the previous ones). Our occasional commenter Twinkie is Asian but very much an American.

    There’s a very simple problem with it–what about people who don’t believe in the idea?
     
    If they were born into this society they are still Americans.

    If theoretically the population ceases to believe in the American idea (see above) then America dies.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson

  389. @Simpleguest
    @reiner Tor

    "The Swiss usually organize everything pretty well.
    Again, Russia being big is presented as a virtue. It is not."


    Not an argument.
    The question was, when have the Swiss organized anything on scale Russians have?
    And yes, Russia being big is a virtue. Many have tried to build and organize big countries but failed.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    When have Russians organized anything as well as the Swiss do? The answer is never. Have Russians organized trains which are never (okay, rarely) late? In a very small corner of their country?

    Russia got big by being situated next to the steppe and Siberia. It was very bad until others elsewhere invented firearms, which the Russians adapted, and then could conquer the steppe nomads and Siberia relatively easily. (It also helped that the nomads empire was in the disintegration phase.) Russia would never have gotten that big in the middle of Europe cramped between other similar countries.

    Anyway, I cannot believe I’m here debating the very big brained idea that the Russians are better at organizing things than the Swiss.

    • LOL: Kent Nationalist
    • Replies: @anonymous coward
    @reiner Tor


    Have Russians organized trains which are never (okay, rarely) late?
     
    Russian trains are never late. A 10 minute delay for a cross-country train is counted as an emergency and happens maybe once a year.

    Now compare to German trains, lol.

    In short, I applaud your mastery of dumb memes. Your grasp of reality - not so much.

    Replies: @Korenchkin, @reiner Tor

    , @Simpleguest
    @reiner Tor

    "Anyway, I cannot believe I’m here debating the very big brained idea that the Russians are better at organizing things than the Swiss."

    Rating needs similar metrics and similar order of magnitudes, hence the question, that you ignored by the way.

    We'll never know how good Swiss are at running a system that ferries their entire population in a day, every day, all year long, like Moscow subway does.
    Here is another metric: how good are the Swiss at organizing a transportation system that ferries 100 million people over one weekend like Chinese do during the Lunar New Year?

    Instead, you raise the "beaten to death" cliche of Swiss trains running on time. LOL.

    Replies: @Beckow, @reiner Tor

    , @AP
    @reiner Tor

    The Moscow metro is always on time and comes every 2 minutes or less.

    But otherwise Russia is not a terribly time-oriented society.

    , @melanf
    @reiner Tor


    When have Russians organized anything as well as the Swiss do? The answer is never. Have Russians organized trains which are never (okay, rarely) late? In a very small corner of their country?
     
    For Switzerland will not say, but where I live (St. Petersburg) trains go undoubtedly more accurately than in Germany (where for two days I was surprised to see the constant delay of trains).

    I take the train to work almost every day and these trains are never (okay, very rarely) late
    , @Anatoly Karlin
    @reiner Tor

    In general, correct, but you picked perhaps the worst possible example. :)

    , @anonymous coward
    @reiner Tor


    It was very bad until others elsewhere invented firearms, which the Russians adapted, and then could conquer the steppe nomads and Siberia relatively easily.
     
    Siberia was conquered with this thing: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ru/c/c5/Doszczanik.jpg

    Not with firearms. In any case, the natives there at the time already had access to firearms; it's not as if being situated right between Europe and China stifles information flow.

    Russia conquered Siberia because Russian logistics were far and above better than anything native tribes could muster. (The same reason why Russia beat Hilter and Napoleon.)

    Replies: @reiner Tor

  390. @Rattus Norwegius
    https://www.intellinews.com/zelenskiy-overtakes-putin
    -in-russian-popularity-polls-as-russians-become-increa
    singly-vocal-168133/?source=russia



    Also, something for you AK, from the The Conversation.
    "It is no surprise that, in the appending notes to The Year 4338, Odoevskii provides perhaps the very first methodology for a “general science of futurology”. He lays claim to being the first proper, self-conscious futurologist."

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

    Yea, polls are remarkably trustworthy. I remember how they predicted 90-95% probability of cackling hyena’s win in 2016. If it weren’t for the damn reality…

  391. When have Russians organized anything as well as the Swiss do?

    Most recent FIFA World Cup got great reviews.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @Mikhail

    Okay, that’s a good example.

    My point was simply that the Swiss tend to organize everything rather well, while the Russians, on average, less so. I contrasted it with the fact that they organized their war effort in ww2 rather well.

  392. @Mikhail
    @AP

    You're technically wrong again, while carrying on like a propagandist with your Vlasovite label.

    Collaborate means to work with someone or an entity. A person collaborating in such a situation isn't by default a traitor to someone or something else. As an example, the word collaborate (collaborated, collaborates, collaborating) has been used in relation to co-authors, who aren't necessarily betraying anything/anyone in their collaboration with each other. Krasnov was if anything more of Nazi collaborator than Vlasov.

    Vlasov was for a strong Russia - a point which got him in trouble with some of the Nazi hierarchy. Within his ranks was the view that Stalin betrayed Soviet as well as Russian ideals, thereby making Stalin the traitor. At least part or all of that perspective is one that finds support among some on the left, as well as with pro-Russian/anti-Communist advocacy.

    Krasnov fluctuated between supporting a unitary Russia and the factually challenged view that the Cossacks are a separate ethnic group. He went along with the Nazi imagery of a Cossackia, something which the anti-Russian pro-Bandera Captive Nations Committee pushed for as well.

    BTW, the ROCOR and ROC-MP have expressed differences of opinion over Vlasov. The sovok view typically sees Vlasov as a traitor. Likewise, the pro-Bandera svidos don't like him as well. Sovoks and svidos tend to not like pro-Russian/anti-Communist advocacy.

    Replies: @AP

    You’re technically wrong again, while carrying on like a propagandist with your Vlasovite label.

    Are you a Vlasovite or not? Answer the question.

    Collaborate means to work with someone or an entity.

    In the context of World War II this is not how it is used.

    It is sad that English is the only language you speak, yet you need an English lesson.

    Here are the Miriam-Webster definitions American English):

    1. to work jointly with others or together especially in an intellectual endeavor

    2. to cooperate with or willingly assist an enemy of one’s country and especially an occupying force

    3. to cooperate with an agency or instrumentality with which one is not immediately connected

    Only point 2 is relevant to this discussion about World War II.

    Vlasov was a Soviet citizen and a Soviet general. The USSR was very much his country. He cooperated and willingly assisted the Germans who invaded and occupied his country, the USSR.

    Krasnov was never a Soviet citizen and was an avowed enemy of the Soviet state since its foundation. His cooperation with the Germans therefore cannot be classified as collaboration.

    Oxford (British English) definition of collaboration:

    https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/collaboration

    1. the act of working with another person or group of people to create or produce something

    2. a piece of work produced by two or more people or groups working together

    3. the act of helping the enemy during a war when they have taken control of your country

    Same thing applies.

    Why do I predict you won’t be grateful for the language lesson? 🙂

    :::::::::::

    Vlasov may have made whatever excuses he wanted, the fact is that by definition he was a collaborator, while Krasnov was not.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
    @AP

    It's sad that you carry on on like a pathetically ignorant lout, in conjunction with being historically and intellectually challenged at times.

    By definition, Krasnov collaborated (worked with) with the Nazis and more so than Vlasov. Some specifics were provided which you evaded.

    I don't know of anyone who has called them self a Vlasovite.

    Vlasov can and has been called a traitor - something that has been said of Stalin in terms of the belief that he betrayed the revolution.

    Replies: @AP

  393. @Mikhail

    When have Russians organized anything as well as the Swiss do?
     
    Most recent FIFA World Cup got great reviews.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    Okay, that’s a good example.

    My point was simply that the Swiss tend to organize everything rather well, while the Russians, on average, less so. I contrasted it with the fact that they organized their war effort in ww2 rather well.

  394. @AP
    @Mikhail


    You’re technically wrong again, while carrying on like a propagandist with your Vlasovite label.
     
    Are you a Vlasovite or not? Answer the question.

    Collaborate means to work with someone or an entity.
     
    In the context of World War II this is not how it is used.

    It is sad that English is the only language you speak, yet you need an English lesson.

    Here are the Miriam-Webster definitions American English):

    1. to work jointly with others or together especially in an intellectual endeavor

    2. to cooperate with or willingly assist an enemy of one's country and especially an occupying force

    3. to cooperate with an agency or instrumentality with which one is not immediately connected

    Only point 2 is relevant to this discussion about World War II.

    Vlasov was a Soviet citizen and a Soviet general. The USSR was very much his country. He cooperated and willingly assisted the Germans who invaded and occupied his country, the USSR.

    Krasnov was never a Soviet citizen and was an avowed enemy of the Soviet state since its foundation. His cooperation with the Germans therefore cannot be classified as collaboration.

    Oxford (British English) definition of collaboration:

    https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/collaboration

    1. the act of working with another person or group of people to create or produce something

    2. a piece of work produced by two or more people or groups working together

    3. the act of helping the enemy during a war when they have taken control of your country

    Same thing applies.

    Why do I predict you won't be grateful for the language lesson? :-)

    :::::::::::

    Vlasov may have made whatever excuses he wanted, the fact is that by definition he was a collaborator, while Krasnov was not.

    Replies: @Mikhail

    It’s sad that you carry on on like a pathetically ignorant lout, in conjunction with being historically and intellectually challenged at times.

    By definition, Krasnov collaborated (worked with) with the Nazis and more so than Vlasov. Some specifics were provided which you evaded.

    I don’t know of anyone who has called them self a Vlasovite.

    Vlasov can and has been called a traitor – something that has been said of Stalin in terms of the belief that he betrayed the revolution.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Mikhail

    I see you need more English lessons.


    Krasnov collaborated (worked with) with the Nazis
     
    Review again:

    to work jointly with others or together especially in an intellectual endeavor

    Did he write some academic papers together with Nazi scientists? No.

    Did he build something together with them? No.

    to cooperate with or willingly assist an enemy of one’s country and especially an occupying force

    He didn't do that either. He wasn't a Soviet.

    But Vlasov was. So Vlasov, but not Krasnov, was a collaborator.

    Stalin is irrelevant to the point of whether or not Vlasov was a collaborator.

    Replies: @Mikhail

  395. @Korenchkin
    I only ever see Ukranians, Mongol fetishists and idiot Nordicists(the kind that want Russia to be reduced to just Novgorod-Moscow-Petrograd) claim certain Slavs are not real Slavs because
    I figure this deserves some discussion

    There is no Slav exclusive genetic makeup, partly because Slavs aren't inbred Ashkenazis and partly because Slavs inhabited the area from Szeczin in the Baltic to Salonica on the Aegean and from the Elbe to the Pacific
    This does not mean that any Churka can claim to be a Slav, but
    Large chunks of German, Romanian, Albanian, Hungarian and Finno-Baltic peoples have identical genetic makeups as certain Polish, Ukranian, Serbian and Bulgarian groups, this is partly due to Communist regimes forcing minorities to convert to certain ethnicities and partly due to natural exchanges of population that happen gradually over centuries (it's mostly the latter)

    If we split the Slavs into 2 groups the North and South (Divided by Hungary and Romania) then the most distinct haplogroup is R1a for Northern and I2a for Southern
    Anatoly himself is only 50% R1a master race, but I doubt he or anyone else would call him a half-Slav unless they were very autistic or just doing it for the sake of trolling

    Karlin would probably like some sort of set of genetic lines based around gene usefulness (high IQ, good health, etc.) getting defined for each group and Government policy encouraging procreation of certain genes over others, perhaps editing them into future generations, so every child in the Slavic Meme Union is as Blonde and intelligent as an R1a IndoEuro and tall and strong as a I2 ProtoEuro (apply narrative and stereotypes at your leisure)

    https://lundiak.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/europe_hg_with_predominant.png

    Replies: @AP, @Anatoly Karlin

    I only ever see Ukranians, Mongol fetishists and idiot Nordicists(the kind that want Russia to be reduced to just Novgorod-Moscow-Petrograd) claim certain Slavs are not real Slavs

    So do geneticists:

    https://www.nature.com/articles/jhg200754.pdf?proof=true

    If we split the Slavs into 2 groups the North and South (Divided by Hungary and Romania) then the most distinct haplogroup is R1a for Northern and I2a for Southern
    Anatoly himself is only 50% R1a master race,

    50% is the Slavic baseline. Different Slavic nations vary from thjso baseline – Russians are mixed a little with Finnic people, Poles with Germans, Ukrainians with Balkanoids, Belarussians with Baltic people (who are very much like Slavs anyways). But all of these people are Slavs.

    People like Serbs are not Slavs with some other admixture. They are the “other” , with some Slav admixture.

    Slavic language came from people moving south, which is why Slavic-speaking Balkanoids are about 25% descended from those northerners while non-Slavic speaking Balkanoid Albanians are not.

    Saying “If we split the Slavs into 2 groups the North and South ” is like saying “if you split Spanish people into two groups European and Central American” and pretending that Aztec/Mayan ancestry is one type of Spanish ancestry. No.

    • Replies: @Korenchkin
    @AP

    You sabotage your argument by trying to make meme comparisons with different races from entirely different continents
    Theres far less genetic difference between Poles and Croats or Russians and Bulgarians then with any European group and Latin Americans or Sub Saharan Africans

    A more apt comparison would be Danes and Germans, Irish and Brits or even North and South Italians

    Slavs are a European Ethno-Linguistic group, not some sort of trans-atlantic mixture
    So instead of splitting Spanish speakers this would be like splitting European Germanic people into two groups

    Replies: @AP

  396. @AP
    @Mr. Hack

    America is not an ethnic nation but an idea-nation.

    So an English-speaking Carib from London is an Englishman?

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @Mr. Hack

    I don’t know anymore. The whole idea of nation and nation state is becoming more and more meaningless as time goes on. We may lament this fact, but it does seem to be the way that it’s going.

    At one time it wasn’t uncommon (and still isn’t) to have an American describe himself as a “Heinz 57” mix. This didn’t seem to cause any problems because ususally all of the intermixed ethnicities were of white European background. The idea is now being stretched becasue there are so many other races involved in the mix today. Most white Americans don’t seem to mind to mix – our cultural elite are only following a trend already well in motion for quite some time. I don’t think that white nationalism is really all that popular in the US.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    @Mr. Hack

    Nations have been forming and dissolving for as long as there has been agriculture.

    You and AP are of Ukrainian descent. Once in the Ukraine there lived an Iranian nation called the Sarmatians. Actual Sarmatian blood didn't disappear, and probably both of you have Sarmatian ancestors.

    The process of dissolution is currently ongoing in many countries. Where dissolution is not stopped, the host nation will dissolve and ultimately new identities will emerge.

  397. @Mikhail
    @AP

    It's sad that you carry on on like a pathetically ignorant lout, in conjunction with being historically and intellectually challenged at times.

    By definition, Krasnov collaborated (worked with) with the Nazis and more so than Vlasov. Some specifics were provided which you evaded.

    I don't know of anyone who has called them self a Vlasovite.

    Vlasov can and has been called a traitor - something that has been said of Stalin in terms of the belief that he betrayed the revolution.

    Replies: @AP

    I see you need more English lessons.

    Krasnov collaborated (worked with) with the Nazis

    Review again:

    to work jointly with others or together especially in an intellectual endeavor

    Did he write some academic papers together with Nazi scientists? No.

    Did he build something together with them? No.

    to cooperate with or willingly assist an enemy of one’s country and especially an occupying force

    He didn’t do that either. He wasn’t a Soviet.

    But Vlasov was. So Vlasov, but not Krasnov, was a collaborator.

    Stalin is irrelevant to the point of whether or not Vlasov was a collaborator.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
    @AP

    You really are dense.

    https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=WrGCXdHlCIzK_Qbii5iICQ&q=synonym+for+collaborate&oq=synonym+for+colloborate&gs_l=psy-ab.1.0.0i10l2.615.6904..8703...0.0..0.325.1604.21j1j0j1......0....1..gws-wiz.......0j0i131j0i22i10i30.sza9cVdGdlY#spf=1568846179326

    work jointly on an activity, especially to produce or create something.
    "he collaborated with a distinguished painter on the designs"

    For your sake, get help.

    Replies: @AP

  398. @AP
    @Mikhail

    I see you need more English lessons.


    Krasnov collaborated (worked with) with the Nazis
     
    Review again:

    to work jointly with others or together especially in an intellectual endeavor

    Did he write some academic papers together with Nazi scientists? No.

    Did he build something together with them? No.

    to cooperate with or willingly assist an enemy of one’s country and especially an occupying force

    He didn't do that either. He wasn't a Soviet.

    But Vlasov was. So Vlasov, but not Krasnov, was a collaborator.

    Stalin is irrelevant to the point of whether or not Vlasov was a collaborator.

    Replies: @Mikhail

    You really are dense.

    https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=WrGCXdHlCIzK_Qbii5iICQ&q=synonym+for+collaborate&oq=synonym+for+colloborate&gs_l=psy-ab.1.0.0i10l2.615.6904..8703…0.0..0.325.1604.21j1j0j1……0….1..gws-wiz…….0j0i131j0i22i10i30.sza9cVdGdlY#spf=1568846179326

    work jointly on an activity, especially to produce or create something.
    “he collaborated with a distinguished painter on the designs”

    For your sake, get help.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Mikhail

    work jointly on an activity, especially to produce or create something.
    “he collaborated with a distinguished painter on the designs”


    Yes, so which painting or academic work did Krasnov produce with German colleagues?

    None, so this definition does not apply to him. And it is not the definition involved in "Nazi collaboration." Someone working with Albert Speer on some architecture project would not be a "Nazi collaborator." (unless he was working for the German government and his country was occupied by the Nazis)

    This is the relevant definiton:

    a person who helps the enemy in a war, when they have taken control of the person’s country

    Are you starting to learn about your only language?

    Replies: @Mikhail

  399. @Thorfinnsson
    @AP

    I don't agree with the proposition nation theory of America.

    There's a very simple problem with it--what about people who don't believe in the idea?

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @AP

    You have recited the Pledge of Allegiance, haven’t you?

    I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, one nation under God indivisible with liberty and justice for all (not just white Americans of English or Dutch ancestry!).

    Are you admitting that you don’t really believe in it? You may be guilty of treason – think about it.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    @Mr. Hack

    The US Pledge of Allegiance was written in 1892, when the ethnic mix was considerably less confusing than today (though rapidly deteriorating even then). There's also a common problem with people confusing nations and states, when the two are not necessarily related.

    And no, I don't really believe in it. Liberty and justice for all don't exist in America today, and while I do support justice for all I do not support liberty for all. And in reality nobody else does anyway, though most will profess to.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  400. @Thorfinnsson
    @AP

    I don't agree with the proposition nation theory of America.

    There's a very simple problem with it--what about people who don't believe in the idea?

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @AP

    I don’t agree with the proposition nation theory of America.

    It is based on an idea created by 18th century protestant Anglo-Saxon people and thus inseparable from their particular culture. But others who assimilate into this culture are part of it, also. It is of course easier for Europeans to do so than it is for others but it is possible for anyone. Simplistically, English language, Protestant work ethic, free market ideal, limited representative government ideal, Christianity (in a form that supports the previous ones). Our occasional commenter Twinkie is Asian but very much an American.

    There’s a very simple problem with it–what about people who don’t believe in the idea?

    If they were born into this society they are still Americans.

    If theoretically the population ceases to believe in the American idea (see above) then America dies.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    @AP

    Postwar Americans harbor a peculiar delusion that phenotypic plasticity has no limits. Their ancestors didn't, as you can see here: https://www.counter-currents.com/2018/06/lothrop-stoddards-reforging-america/

    One can find non-white Americans who behave and believe very much like Americans, but they're outliers in their own racial groups. And as America's demographics continue to deteriorate, all of the races who inhabit the United States will increasingly tend to select the environments for themselves which best fit their racial characteristics.

    If you do not already read Audacious Epigone's blog, you should. He routinely shows polling data that demonstrates just how different the various peoples that inhabit the United States are.

    The basic problem with a idea nation, or more commonly called a proposition nation, is that carried to its limits it requires an ideological state which controls the means of propaganda and imprisons political dissidents.

    In other words, we're talking about the Soviet Union. And the United States is taking an increasingly Soviet trajectory.

    Replies: @AP

  401. @Mr. Hack
    @AP

    I don't know anymore. The whole idea of nation and nation state is becoming more and more meaningless as time goes on. We may lament this fact, but it does seem to be the way that it's going.

    At one time it wasn't uncommon (and still isn't) to have an American describe himself as a "Heinz 57" mix. This didn't seem to cause any problems because ususally all of the intermixed ethnicities were of white European background. The idea is now being stretched becasue there are so many other races involved in the mix today. Most white Americans don't seem to mind to mix - our cultural elite are only following a trend already well in motion for quite some time. I don't think that white nationalism is really all that popular in the US.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson

    Nations have been forming and dissolving for as long as there has been agriculture.

    You and AP are of Ukrainian descent. Once in the Ukraine there lived an Iranian nation called the Sarmatians. Actual Sarmatian blood didn’t disappear, and probably both of you have Sarmatian ancestors.

    The process of dissolution is currently ongoing in many countries. Where dissolution is not stopped, the host nation will dissolve and ultimately new identities will emerge.

  402. @Mikhail
    @AP

    You really are dense.

    https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=WrGCXdHlCIzK_Qbii5iICQ&q=synonym+for+collaborate&oq=synonym+for+colloborate&gs_l=psy-ab.1.0.0i10l2.615.6904..8703...0.0..0.325.1604.21j1j0j1......0....1..gws-wiz.......0j0i131j0i22i10i30.sza9cVdGdlY#spf=1568846179326

    work jointly on an activity, especially to produce or create something.
    "he collaborated with a distinguished painter on the designs"

    For your sake, get help.

    Replies: @AP

    work jointly on an activity, especially to produce or create something.
    “he collaborated with a distinguished painter on the designs”

    Yes, so which painting or academic work did Krasnov produce with German colleagues?

    None, so this definition does not apply to him. And it is not the definition involved in “Nazi collaboration.” Someone working with Albert Speer on some architecture project would not be a “Nazi collaborator.” (unless he was working for the German government and his country was occupied by the Nazis)

    This is the relevant definiton:

    a person who helps the enemy in a war, when they have taken control of the person’s country

    Are you starting to learn about your only language?

    • Replies: @Mikhail
    @AP

    That was an example to show a working with relationship - something that Krasnov had with the Nazis. Once again, noting that he worked more closely with Nazi aims than Vlasov.

    Your purported linguistic skills don't prevent you from flopping on this and some other matters.

    Replies: @AP

  403. @Mr. Hack
    @Thorfinnsson

    You have recited the Pledge of Allegiance, haven't you?

    I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, one nation under God indivisible with liberty and justice for all (not just white Americans of English or Dutch ancestry!).

    Are you admitting that you don't really believe in it? You may be guilty of treason - think about it.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson

    The US Pledge of Allegiance was written in 1892, when the ethnic mix was considerably less confusing than today (though rapidly deteriorating even then). There’s also a common problem with people confusing nations and states, when the two are not necessarily related.

    And no, I don’t really believe in it. Liberty and justice for all don’t exist in America today, and while I do support justice for all I do not support liberty for all. And in reality nobody else does anyway, though most will profess to.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Thorfinnsson

    So, you've made and continue to make a pledg to ideas you don't believe in and don't support? That must feel awful?

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @AnonFromTN

  404. @Thorfinnsson
    @Mr. Hack

    The US Pledge of Allegiance was written in 1892, when the ethnic mix was considerably less confusing than today (though rapidly deteriorating even then). There's also a common problem with people confusing nations and states, when the two are not necessarily related.

    And no, I don't really believe in it. Liberty and justice for all don't exist in America today, and while I do support justice for all I do not support liberty for all. And in reality nobody else does anyway, though most will profess to.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    So, you’ve made and continue to make a pledg to ideas you don’t believe in and don’t support? That must feel awful?

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    @Mr. Hack

    The ongoing disintegration of the United States is what feels awful.

    It's like that scene in Hitchcock's Psycho.

    The girl is about to be murdered. You know she's going to be murdered, and the murderer knows he's going to murder her. But she doesn't know, and scream as you might you have no way of informing her.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    , @AnonFromTN
    @Mr. Hack

    If feels worse to pledge allegiance to the ideals the country betrayed.

  405. @AP
    @Thorfinnsson


    I don’t agree with the proposition nation theory of America.
     
    It is based on an idea created by 18th century protestant Anglo-Saxon people and thus inseparable from their particular culture. But others who assimilate into this culture are part of it, also. It is of course easier for Europeans to do so than it is for others but it is possible for anyone. Simplistically, English language, Protestant work ethic, free market ideal, limited representative government ideal, Christianity (in a form that supports the previous ones). Our occasional commenter Twinkie is Asian but very much an American.

    There’s a very simple problem with it–what about people who don’t believe in the idea?
     
    If they were born into this society they are still Americans.

    If theoretically the population ceases to believe in the American idea (see above) then America dies.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson

    Postwar Americans harbor a peculiar delusion that phenotypic plasticity has no limits. Their ancestors didn’t, as you can see here: https://www.counter-currents.com/2018/06/lothrop-stoddards-reforging-america/

    One can find non-white Americans who behave and believe very much like Americans, but they’re outliers in their own racial groups. And as America’s demographics continue to deteriorate, all of the races who inhabit the United States will increasingly tend to select the environments for themselves which best fit their racial characteristics.

    If you do not already read Audacious Epigone’s blog, you should. He routinely shows polling data that demonstrates just how different the various peoples that inhabit the United States are.

    The basic problem with a idea nation, or more commonly called a proposition nation, is that carried to its limits it requires an ideological state which controls the means of propaganda and imprisons political dissidents.

    In other words, we’re talking about the Soviet Union. And the United States is taking an increasingly Soviet trajectory.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Thorfinnsson


    One can find non-white Americans who behave and believe very much like Americans, but they’re outliers in their own racial groups.
     
    They may have different abilities and temperaments but can be socialized into adopting basic American beliefs. Even if their particular abilities and temperaments are not as compatible as are those of northwestern Europeans to the American idea, this would only make then less successful Americans (less industrious or intelligent, so poor, worse impulse control, so more likely to be in incarcerated), yet still Americans. They would still take American ideas for granted, live by American rules to the best of their abilities, etc.

    The basic problem with a idea nation, or more commonly called a proposition nation, is that carried to its limits it requires an ideological state which controls the means of propaganda and imprisons political dissidents.

    In other words, we’re talking about the Soviet Union. And the United States is taking an increasingly Soviet trajectory.
     
    America prior to the 1960s did that without being a totalitarian state.

    Replies: @LondonBob

  406. @Mr. Hack
    @Thorfinnsson

    So, you've made and continue to make a pledg to ideas you don't believe in and don't support? That must feel awful?

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @AnonFromTN

    The ongoing disintegration of the United States is what feels awful.

    It’s like that scene in Hitchcock’s Psycho.

    The girl is about to be murdered. You know she’s going to be murdered, and the murderer knows he’s going to murder her. But she doesn’t know, and scream as you might you have no way of informing her.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Thorfinnsson


    It’s like that scene in Hitchcock’s Psycho.
     
    Yeah, when America was closer to the ideals that you seem to be longing for, when America was mostly white and evenly homogenized, when life was slower and people were more civil to one another. Ah shucks, the hoardes of colored immigrants have ruined this idylic vision of white America:

    https://youtu.be/NG3-GlvKPcg
  407. @AP
    @Mikhail

    work jointly on an activity, especially to produce or create something.
    “he collaborated with a distinguished painter on the designs”


    Yes, so which painting or academic work did Krasnov produce with German colleagues?

    None, so this definition does not apply to him. And it is not the definition involved in "Nazi collaboration." Someone working with Albert Speer on some architecture project would not be a "Nazi collaborator." (unless he was working for the German government and his country was occupied by the Nazis)

    This is the relevant definiton:

    a person who helps the enemy in a war, when they have taken control of the person’s country

    Are you starting to learn about your only language?

    Replies: @Mikhail

    That was an example to show a working with relationship – something that Krasnov had with the Nazis. Once again, noting that he worked more closely with Nazi aims than Vlasov.

    Your purported linguistic skills don’t prevent you from flopping on this and some other matters.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Mikhail


    That was an example to show a working with relationship
     
    I guess you don't know what the words "especially to produce or create something" mean, just as you don't know what the word collaboration means?

    Replies: @Mikhail

  408. @Mikhail
    @AP

    That was an example to show a working with relationship - something that Krasnov had with the Nazis. Once again, noting that he worked more closely with Nazi aims than Vlasov.

    Your purported linguistic skills don't prevent you from flopping on this and some other matters.

    Replies: @AP

    That was an example to show a working with relationship

    I guess you don’t know what the words “especially to produce or create something” mean, just as you don’t know what the word collaboration means?

    • Replies: @Mikhail
    @AP

    I do. You don't, as has been clearly exhibited - at least for reasonably intelligent people.

  409. @Thorfinnsson
    @AP

    Postwar Americans harbor a peculiar delusion that phenotypic plasticity has no limits. Their ancestors didn't, as you can see here: https://www.counter-currents.com/2018/06/lothrop-stoddards-reforging-america/

    One can find non-white Americans who behave and believe very much like Americans, but they're outliers in their own racial groups. And as America's demographics continue to deteriorate, all of the races who inhabit the United States will increasingly tend to select the environments for themselves which best fit their racial characteristics.

    If you do not already read Audacious Epigone's blog, you should. He routinely shows polling data that demonstrates just how different the various peoples that inhabit the United States are.

    The basic problem with a idea nation, or more commonly called a proposition nation, is that carried to its limits it requires an ideological state which controls the means of propaganda and imprisons political dissidents.

    In other words, we're talking about the Soviet Union. And the United States is taking an increasingly Soviet trajectory.

    Replies: @AP

    One can find non-white Americans who behave and believe very much like Americans, but they’re outliers in their own racial groups.

    They may have different abilities and temperaments but can be socialized into adopting basic American beliefs. Even if their particular abilities and temperaments are not as compatible as are those of northwestern Europeans to the American idea, this would only make then less successful Americans (less industrious or intelligent, so poor, worse impulse control, so more likely to be in incarcerated), yet still Americans. They would still take American ideas for granted, live by American rules to the best of their abilities, etc.

    The basic problem with a idea nation, or more commonly called a proposition nation, is that carried to its limits it requires an ideological state which controls the means of propaganda and imprisons political dissidents.

    In other words, we’re talking about the Soviet Union. And the United States is taking an increasingly Soviet trajectory.

    America prior to the 1960s did that without being a totalitarian state.

    • Replies: @LondonBob
    @AP

    We must forge the new Soviet American man.

    Replies: @Korenchkin

  410. @AP
    @Mikhail


    That was an example to show a working with relationship
     
    I guess you don't know what the words "especially to produce or create something" mean, just as you don't know what the word collaboration means?

    Replies: @Mikhail

    I do. You don’t, as has been clearly exhibited – at least for reasonably intelligent people.

  411. Gerard1234 [AKA "Gerard2"] says:
    @AnonFromTN
    @Korenchkin

    You are making a pretty common mistake: equating Ukrainians with Ukies. The difference is about the same as between Germans and Nazis. Ukies represent maybe 5% of Ukrainian population. The fraction of Ukies among Ukrainian expats in the US and Canada is much greater, because most of those people are descendants of Hitler lackeys who ran away from the Red Army to avoid being hanged as Nazi collaborators. Ukrainians and Germans are humans you can work and argue with. In contrast, Ukies and Nazis are vermin. The only way humans should deal with them is like with cockroaches: either you exterminate them, or you have a recurring problem.

    Replies: @AP, @Gerard1234

    You are making a pretty common mistake: equating Ukrainians with Ukies. The difference is about the same as between Germans and Nazis. Ukies represent maybe 5% of Ukrainian population. The fraction of Ukies among Ukrainian expats in the US and Canada is much greater, because most of those people are descendants of Hitler lackeys who ran away from the Red Army to avoid being hanged as Nazi collaborators. Ukrainians and Germans are humans you can work and argue with. In contrast, Ukies and Nazis are vermin. The only way humans should deal with them is like with cockroaches: either you exterminate them, or you have a recurring problem.

    LOL….magnificent ( and factually correct) comment. Same thing with normal Bulgarians, and the Euro-Atlanticist filth who control their institutions and distort their history in a country that is about 85-90% russophile.

    But is if funny how Ukraine is cursed with these ukies,,,particularly the vermin who went to US and Canada. Compare them to the the Irish in America and what positive things they did for Ireland …….for instance that famous Riverdance thing – the main female and male Dancers were Americans of Irish descent……sending money to Ireland ( not dwelling to much on the IRA thing which isn’t good) to the point that it is known around the world……investing in Irish businesses, promoting Irish culture in a positive and non-antagonistic way…and above all just having many talented people . Now compare that to the laughably nutjob primitive failures of ukrop descent in the US/Canada – the most useless and untalented imbeciles to have ever walked the earth. I am convinced that inbreeding is at high levels in their community

    BTW did you see that infamous picture of khokols gathered together like baboons, in an Italian court protesting the trial for murder of one of their sadistic scumbags who fought in Donbass ( killing an Italian photographer)?….it was hilarious because , like the most primitive undeveloped tribe in Africa, they were all wearing their vishivankas in the court , like is it some body armour!

    • Replies: @AP
    @Gerard1234


    Now compare that to the laughably nutjob primitive failures of ukrop descent in the US/Canada
     
    Who are richer than the average white American and a lot richer than Sovoks like you:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_United_States_by_household_income

    List of ethnic groups in the United States by household income

    23. Ukrainian American (2016): $72,449

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

    , @AnonFromTN
    @Gerard1234

    Those morons “helped” a lot their fellow ape, who happened to be a murderer. The judge convicted that scum and gave it an even longer prison time than the prosecution asked for. Rumor has it that its lawyer, after hearing the verdict, had a heart attack. They thought that in Europe you can behave like an utter swine and that kind of behavior helps fellow swine. Well, they could’ve learned that Italy is not their pigsty of a country if they only had brains.

  412. @Gerard1234
    @AnonFromTN


    You are making a pretty common mistake: equating Ukrainians with Ukies. The difference is about the same as between Germans and Nazis. Ukies represent maybe 5% of Ukrainian population. The fraction of Ukies among Ukrainian expats in the US and Canada is much greater, because most of those people are descendants of Hitler lackeys who ran away from the Red Army to avoid being hanged as Nazi collaborators. Ukrainians and Germans are humans you can work and argue with. In contrast, Ukies and Nazis are vermin. The only way humans should deal with them is like with cockroaches: either you exterminate them, or you have a recurring problem.
     
    LOL....magnificent ( and factually correct) comment. Same thing with normal Bulgarians, and the Euro-Atlanticist filth who control their institutions and distort their history in a country that is about 85-90% russophile.

    But is if funny how Ukraine is cursed with these ukies,,,particularly the vermin who went to US and Canada. Compare them to the the Irish in America and what positive things they did for Ireland .......for instance that famous Riverdance thing - the main female and male Dancers were Americans of Irish descent......sending money to Ireland ( not dwelling to much on the IRA thing which isn't good) to the point that it is known around the world......investing in Irish businesses, promoting Irish culture in a positive and non-antagonistic way...and above all just having many talented people . Now compare that to the laughably nutjob primitive failures of ukrop descent in the US/Canada - the most useless and untalented imbeciles to have ever walked the earth. I am convinced that inbreeding is at high levels in their community


    BTW did you see that infamous picture of khokols gathered together like baboons, in an Italian court protesting the trial for murder of one of their sadistic scumbags who fought in Donbass ( killing an Italian photographer)?....it was hilarious because , like the most primitive undeveloped tribe in Africa, they were all wearing their vishivankas in the court , like is it some body armour!

    Replies: @AP, @AnonFromTN

    Now compare that to the laughably nutjob primitive failures of ukrop descent in the US/Canada

    Who are richer than the average white American and a lot richer than Sovoks like you:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_United_States_by_household_income

    List of ethnic groups in the United States by household income

    23. Ukrainian American (2016): $72,449

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    @AP

    Did you read that whole page? BTW, Ukrainian-Americans are in the 25th place, not 22nd.

    However, here are the other entrants:

    8. Russian American (2016): $77,841

    Worse yet, between Russian-Americans and Ukrainian-Americans there are 16 places. To add insult to injury, they are occupied, among others, by

    10. Bulgarian American (2016): $76,862
    13 Slovene American (2016) : $75,940
    14 Basque American (2016) : $75,864
    15 Lebanese American (2016): $75,337
    17 Sri Lankan American: $73,856
    19 Chinese American (2016): $73,788
    21 Malaysian American (2016): $72,827
    23 Iranian American (2016) : $72,733

    So, if you promote tribal pride, you shouldn’t have referred to this page. Your only hope is that Wiki is lying in this, like in everything else.

    Replies: @AP, @Mikel

  413. Gerard1234 [AKA "Gerard2"] says:
    @AP
    @AnonFromTN


    He should have exterminated every single traitor who worked for the Nazis, rather than sending them to camps from which they eventually returned.
     
    But then Ukraine wouldn't have its most pro-Russian politician :-)

    It was a good thing that after the Nazis were kicked out of many towns by the Red Army the NKVD troops arrived “late”, a few days after the liberation. I suspect it was done on purpose, to let locals hang their collaborators (which they did)
     
    Many of the Nazi collaborators had previously been Sovok ones, who had managed to escape being hanged right after the Nazis came in by people who hated Sovoks.

    Anyways, there is a difference between cooperation and collaboration. Vlasov was a collaborator; people like Pyotr Krasnov were not (nevermind what wiki says about him).

    Replies: @Mikhail, @Gerard1234

    But then Ukraine wouldn’t have its most pro-Russian politician

    hahahahaha!! – seeing as a whole flood of these collaborationist scum and their families fully bought into the Communist system and went very far in the hierarchy of that system over the next 50 years…….your moronic thinking is showing no signs of improvement . Pretty much all the major “anti-Russian” politicians have even more reason than Medvedchuk to be pro-Russian for reasons of how they got their wealth, cultural or their own family. Even most of the main dickheads in that “Svoboda ” party of this hyprocrisy you idiot/ The only person more Soviet , more hyprocritcally anti-Russian would be the KGB dyke bitch Grybauskaite, former President of Lithuania

    Many of the Nazi collaborators had previously been Sovok ones

    ..errr no you misdirecting cunt – the Nazi collaborators then switch over to the Soviet side you idiot…turncoats. Pretty much the most dishonourable, contemptible vermin in the whole of WW2

    Anyways, there is a difference between cooperation and collaboration. Vlasov was a collaborator; people like Pyotr Krasnov were not (nevermind what wiki says about him)

    Idiotic comparison…and idiotic sentence

  414. @Mr. Hack
    @Thorfinnsson

    So, you've made and continue to make a pledg to ideas you don't believe in and don't support? That must feel awful?

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @AnonFromTN

    If feels worse to pledge allegiance to the ideals the country betrayed.

  415. 3455972

    LOL, Sovok “engineer” once again demonstrates that he can’t even count.

    How many Sovok families does it take to earn as much as one Ukrainian diaspora family? Seven?

  416. @AP
    @Gerard1234


    Now compare that to the laughably nutjob primitive failures of ukrop descent in the US/Canada
     
    Who are richer than the average white American and a lot richer than Sovoks like you:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_United_States_by_household_income

    List of ethnic groups in the United States by household income

    23. Ukrainian American (2016): $72,449

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

    Did you read that whole page? BTW, Ukrainian-Americans are in the 25th place, not 22nd.

    However, here are the other entrants:

    8. Russian American (2016): $77,841

    Worse yet, between Russian-Americans and Ukrainian-Americans there are 16 places. To add insult to injury, they are occupied, among others, by

    10. Bulgarian American (2016): $76,862
    13 Slovene American (2016) : $75,940
    14 Basque American (2016) : $75,864
    15 Lebanese American (2016): $75,337
    17 Sri Lankan American: $73,856
    19 Chinese American (2016): $73,788
    21 Malaysian American (2016): $72,827
    23 Iranian American (2016) : $72,733

    So, if you promote tribal pride, you shouldn’t have referred to this page. Your only hope is that Wiki is lying in this, like in everything else.

    • Replies: @AP
    @AnonFromTN


    Did you read that whole page? BTW, Ukrainian-Americans are in the 25th place, not 22nd.
     
    I mistakenly wrote 23rd, not 22nd. But it is 25th out of 97.

    However, here are the other entrants:

    8. Russian American (2016): $77,841

    Worse yet, between Russian-Americans and Ukrainian-Americans there are 16 places. To add insult to injury, they are occupied, among others, by
     
    Most Russians include Jews. Jews are not a separate category. There are Israelis and Russians, tow of the richest groups on the census.

    Asians and Lebanese are of course wealthy. Iranians are rich exiles who fled the Revolution. There are few Bulgarians, they are probably some academics or elites. There is nothing surprising here.

    Compare Ukrainian Americans to most common Americans:

    1. Indian American (2016) : $110,026

    24. Italian American (2016) : $72,586
    25. Ukrainian American (2016): $72,449

    28. Scottish American (2016): $71,925[2]
    30. Swedish American (2016): $71,217
    31. Polish American (2016): $71,172
    43. English American (2016) : $67,663
    46. German American (2016): $67,306[2]
    47. Irish American (2016) : $66,688
    53. Scotch-Irish American (2016) : $64,187

    65. Cuban American : $57,000
    93. Mexican American : $38,000

    Replies: @AnonFromTN, @Rattus Norwegius, @Spisarevski

    , @Mikel
    @AnonFromTN

    So what is in your mind insulting about having a lower household income than Basque or Slovenian Americans? Do you have any idea of what the per capita income of those nationalities is in their home countries and how it compares to the Ukrainian and Russian ones?

    That wikipedia entry is any case of little value because most American households contain mixed ancestries and the income of the few whose members all come from some single foreign country are distorted by the patterns of emigration that brought those people here, such as skilled-work and business visas.

    Replies: @AP, @AnonFromTN

  417. @Thorfinnsson
    @Mr. Hack

    The ongoing disintegration of the United States is what feels awful.

    It's like that scene in Hitchcock's Psycho.

    The girl is about to be murdered. You know she's going to be murdered, and the murderer knows he's going to murder her. But she doesn't know, and scream as you might you have no way of informing her.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    It’s like that scene in Hitchcock’s Psycho.

    Yeah, when America was closer to the ideals that you seem to be longing for, when America was mostly white and evenly homogenized, when life was slower and people were more civil to one another. Ah shucks, the hoardes of colored immigrants have ruined this idylic vision of white America:

  418. @AnonFromTN
    @AP

    Did you read that whole page? BTW, Ukrainian-Americans are in the 25th place, not 22nd.

    However, here are the other entrants:

    8. Russian American (2016): $77,841

    Worse yet, between Russian-Americans and Ukrainian-Americans there are 16 places. To add insult to injury, they are occupied, among others, by

    10. Bulgarian American (2016): $76,862
    13 Slovene American (2016) : $75,940
    14 Basque American (2016) : $75,864
    15 Lebanese American (2016): $75,337
    17 Sri Lankan American: $73,856
    19 Chinese American (2016): $73,788
    21 Malaysian American (2016): $72,827
    23 Iranian American (2016) : $72,733

    So, if you promote tribal pride, you shouldn’t have referred to this page. Your only hope is that Wiki is lying in this, like in everything else.

    Replies: @AP, @Mikel

    Did you read that whole page? BTW, Ukrainian-Americans are in the 25th place, not 22nd.

    I mistakenly wrote 23rd, not 22nd. But it is 25th out of 97.

    However, here are the other entrants:

    8. Russian American (2016): $77,841

    Worse yet, between Russian-Americans and Ukrainian-Americans there are 16 places. To add insult to injury, they are occupied, among others, by

    Most Russians include Jews. Jews are not a separate category. There are Israelis and Russians, tow of the richest groups on the census.

    Asians and Lebanese are of course wealthy. Iranians are rich exiles who fled the Revolution. There are few Bulgarians, they are probably some academics or elites. There is nothing surprising here.

    Compare Ukrainian Americans to most common Americans:

    1. Indian American (2016) : $110,026

    24. Italian American (2016) : $72,586
    25. Ukrainian American (2016): $72,449

    28. Scottish American (2016): $71,925[2]
    30. Swedish American (2016): $71,217
    31. Polish American (2016): $71,172
    43. English American (2016) : $67,663
    46. German American (2016): $67,306[2]
    47. Irish American (2016) : $66,688
    53. Scotch-Irish American (2016) : $64,187

    65. Cuban American : $57,000
    93. Mexican American : $38,000

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    @AP

    In fact, Ukrainian-Americans also include Jews. Although most Jews from former USSR probably call themselves Russians. In my experience in many European countries traveling Ukrainians also prefer to call themselves Russians and speak only Russian publicly. I guess they are ashamed of their insane country. Many Ukrainians traveling to Crimea (there are more than a million every year, BTW) cite normalcy as one of the things that attracts them there.

    Replies: @AP, @Mr. Hack

    , @Rattus Norwegius
    @AP

    Would be interesting to know when the ancestors of the nationalites listed arrived in USA. Aswell as how Americans of mixed ancestry are counted, and compare to "pure" nationalites.

    For example does Irish American include only recent immigrants, or does it also include the descendants of prior immigrants? Most likely both, but the proportion of recent to distant migration background is probably weighted most heavily in the distant direction. Ukrainian Americans are probably the opposite, which suggests that the Ukrainians that came to America had a higher educational background, than the Irish.

    Another factor that needs to be taken into account is the urban to rural ratio of the different nationalites. My guess is that German, English and Scoth-Irish Americans, are more likely to be rural than Italian or Indian Americans.

    , @Spisarevski
    @AP


    There are few Bulgarians, they are probably some academics or elites. There is nothing surprising here.
     
    Something like half of the Bulgarians in America live in Chicago and can best be described as working class white niggers, listening to rap and everything (and the most tragically famous Bulgarian rapper and noted genetic waste is there too). The rest aren't all that "elite" either.
    Keep coping though, owned by your own links haha.

    Replies: @AP

  419. @AP
    @AnonFromTN


    Did you read that whole page? BTW, Ukrainian-Americans are in the 25th place, not 22nd.
     
    I mistakenly wrote 23rd, not 22nd. But it is 25th out of 97.

    However, here are the other entrants:

    8. Russian American (2016): $77,841

    Worse yet, between Russian-Americans and Ukrainian-Americans there are 16 places. To add insult to injury, they are occupied, among others, by
     
    Most Russians include Jews. Jews are not a separate category. There are Israelis and Russians, tow of the richest groups on the census.

    Asians and Lebanese are of course wealthy. Iranians are rich exiles who fled the Revolution. There are few Bulgarians, they are probably some academics or elites. There is nothing surprising here.

    Compare Ukrainian Americans to most common Americans:

    1. Indian American (2016) : $110,026

    24. Italian American (2016) : $72,586
    25. Ukrainian American (2016): $72,449

    28. Scottish American (2016): $71,925[2]
    30. Swedish American (2016): $71,217
    31. Polish American (2016): $71,172
    43. English American (2016) : $67,663
    46. German American (2016): $67,306[2]
    47. Irish American (2016) : $66,688
    53. Scotch-Irish American (2016) : $64,187

    65. Cuban American : $57,000
    93. Mexican American : $38,000

    Replies: @AnonFromTN, @Rattus Norwegius, @Spisarevski

    In fact, Ukrainian-Americans also include Jews. Although most Jews from former USSR probably call themselves Russians. In my experience in many European countries traveling Ukrainians also prefer to call themselves Russians and speak only Russian publicly. I guess they are ashamed of their insane country. Many Ukrainians traveling to Crimea (there are more than a million every year, BTW) cite normalcy as one of the things that attracts them there.

    • Replies: @AP
    @AnonFromTN


    In fact, Ukrainian-Americans also include Jews. Although most Jews from former USSR probably call themselves Russians.
     
    Correct. Even Jews from Ukraine almost always call themselves Russians. I've never heard of a Jew from Ukraine calling themselves a Ukrainian. Such may exist, but it is rare. So Jews would inflate Russian income but not Ukrainian one.

    In my experience in many European countries traveling Ukrainians also prefer to call themselves Russians and speak only Russian publicly.
     
    I haven't seen that, on the contrary.

    BTW here is data from Canada:

    https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/6d91/226ad81f14045d4be60a3002fcb4b6b8a1e8.pdf

    Appendix has it. Out of 14 European ethnic groups Ukrainians are in 5th place.

    So overall, Ukrainians in diaspora are well off.

    , @Mr. Hack
    @AnonFromTN


    In my experience in many European countries traveling Ukrainians also prefer to call themselves Russians and speak only Russian publicly. I guess they are ashamed of their insane country. Many Ukrainians traveling to Crimea (there are more than a million every year, BTW) cite normalcy as one of the things that attracts them there.
     
    I think that you're mixing up your own disgusting janissaric views with the general feeling of most Ukrainians. People including Russians, however, are a fickle bunch. Most Russians now look more favorably on the new president of Ukraine, than they do on their own relic of the KGB past, 71% to 67% if you believe Levada. It appears that most Russians actually do look unfavoraably on the strong arm tactics that the Kremlin is applying to its opposition as of late.

    https://www.intellinews.com/zelenskiy-overtakes-putin-in-russian-popularity-polls-as-russians-become-increasingly-vocal-168133/?source=ukraine

    Replies: @AnonFromTN, @Anatoly Karlin

  420. @AnonFromTN
    @AP

    In fact, Ukrainian-Americans also include Jews. Although most Jews from former USSR probably call themselves Russians. In my experience in many European countries traveling Ukrainians also prefer to call themselves Russians and speak only Russian publicly. I guess they are ashamed of their insane country. Many Ukrainians traveling to Crimea (there are more than a million every year, BTW) cite normalcy as one of the things that attracts them there.

    Replies: @AP, @Mr. Hack

    In fact, Ukrainian-Americans also include Jews. Although most Jews from former USSR probably call themselves Russians.

    Correct. Even Jews from Ukraine almost always call themselves Russians. I’ve never heard of a Jew from Ukraine calling themselves a Ukrainian. Such may exist, but it is rare. So Jews would inflate Russian income but not Ukrainian one.

    In my experience in many European countries traveling Ukrainians also prefer to call themselves Russians and speak only Russian publicly.

    I haven’t seen that, on the contrary.

    BTW here is data from Canada:

    https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/6d91/226ad81f14045d4be60a3002fcb4b6b8a1e8.pdf

    Appendix has it. Out of 14 European ethnic groups Ukrainians are in 5th place.

    So overall, Ukrainians in diaspora are well off.

  421. @AnonFromTN
    @AP

    In fact, Ukrainian-Americans also include Jews. Although most Jews from former USSR probably call themselves Russians. In my experience in many European countries traveling Ukrainians also prefer to call themselves Russians and speak only Russian publicly. I guess they are ashamed of their insane country. Many Ukrainians traveling to Crimea (there are more than a million every year, BTW) cite normalcy as one of the things that attracts them there.

    Replies: @AP, @Mr. Hack

    In my experience in many European countries traveling Ukrainians also prefer to call themselves Russians and speak only Russian publicly. I guess they are ashamed of their insane country. Many Ukrainians traveling to Crimea (there are more than a million every year, BTW) cite normalcy as one of the things that attracts them there.

    I think that you’re mixing up your own disgusting janissaric views with the general feeling of most Ukrainians. People including Russians, however, are a fickle bunch. Most Russians now look more favorably on the new president of Ukraine, than they do on their own relic of the KGB past, 71% to 67% if you believe Levada. It appears that most Russians actually do look unfavoraably on the strong arm tactics that the Kremlin is applying to its opposition as of late.

    https://www.intellinews.com/zelenskiy-overtakes-putin-in-russian-popularity-polls-as-russians-become-increasingly-vocal-168133/?source=ukraine

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    @Mr. Hack

    Repeat: polls are remarkably trustworthy. I remember how they predicted 90-95% probability of cackling hyena’s win in 2016. If it weren’t for the damn reality…

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    , @Anatoly Karlin
    @Mr. Hack

    "Fake news".

    https://twitter.com/akarlin88/status/1174750628385558529

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @AP

  422. @Anatoly Karlin
    @Epigon


    Slut shaming, ridicule and abuse of alcoholics, druggies, weirdos, obese slobs...
     
    Sluttery has become evolutionarily adaptive in the past century, as it was before the rise of agriculture. Not going to get far with it.

    Alcoholism and drug addiction are minor problems.

    We are all weirdos here, so where to even start.

    Fat shaming is the only thing on this list where (1) you're not tilting against non-existing problems, (2) against your own interests, and (3) not coming off as a troglodyte.

    Problem is, they have a very strong lobby. Remember that Anglin was only kicked off the Internet when he made fun of that Heather woman.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @Thulean Friend

    This post basically just confirms that AK is nothing more than a racist libertarian. How is being against alcoholism “against your interests”? Laughably silly.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    @Thulean Friend


    How is being against alcoholism “against your interests”?
     
    Where did I say that? It is a major problem in Russia, though much receded in recent years. It is an almost inconsequential issue in most Western countries (only exception, and extremely partial even so: Finland).

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson

  423. @TheTotallyAnonymous
    @Mikel


    I doubt that is true. For the average (or above-average) man mating with multiple partners has become much more likely than it would have been had there been no female “sexual liberation”. And we all know some below average-looking men who have developed successful alternative strategies to attract women out of necessity.
     
    I think you have unknowingly contradicted yourself with the parts in bold. They would seem to confirm that since the time of "sexual liberation" that most men are having less sex than ever while a small amount of men are having it much more with many women. Basically, what currently exists in the West is a sexual pyramid where all the higher status/level men have access to a pyramid of women at their equal or lower status levels chasing after them while all the other men are completely ignored.

    I do tend to see a certain evolution among the youngest generations towards a more conservative approach to sexual relations than was common in my youth (during the aftermath of the sexual revolution) but that is, if anything, a recent phenomenon not directly linked to lack of opportunities (even more so in societies mature enough to decriminalize prostitution).

     

    Again, you are confirming what I'm stating. It's also interesting that you consider legalization of prostitution to be an indicator of a mature society.

    This is pretty much what ends up happening if you just leave things alone. But it is debatable that this is the ideal outcome from a societal perspective. On the one hand, stable families are an unquestionable benefit for our civilized way of life. On the other hand, having alpha males reproduce at a higher rate than the rest is more eugenic.

     

    At least there's something we can agree on, although your suggestion that having a society based upon institutionalized cuckolding by superior men of lower status men is odd but interesting. The biggest problem with that would be that if a small amount of men had their way with large numbers of women, the risk of incest and dysgenics would be too high if the numbers are too low.

    Anyway, it's worth repeating the importance of reading Roger F Devlin's work (only a 30 page pdf) to understand the true nature of sexual relations between men and women with the logical solution following accordingly:

    https://www.toqonline.com/archives/v6n2/DevlinTOQV6N2.pdf

    Replies: @Mikel

    I think you have unknowingly contradicted yourself with the parts in bold.

    You must think harder and try to understand what the term average means.

    The sexual and romantic life of below-average men has always been very difficult. And they didn’t have all the dating opportunities that are currently available. You must be very young if you think that you’re witnessing anything new.

    But if the situation of these men is of great concern to you, the most practical measure is to allow grown-up women who are willing to cater for the urges of these men in exchange for money to do so. That alleviates the sexual part of this problem considerably (so much so that, even if you don’t allow it, members of both groups will do it anyway, as they have throughout history).

    I do NOT like the idea of a Church or any other authority dictating who must procreate with whom. But I don’t think that my preferred way of arranging reproduction: monogamous and stable families, is the most eugenic one, especially in these times of higher classes having less offspring than the lower ones.

    I have already read about the female “hypergamous” tendencies by Devlin before. Somebody provided a link on this site not long ago. To be honest, I don’t feel the need to learn through an online manifesto much more more about women than I already know. Women also have their very big problems, especially the below-average looking ones. We all just do what we can with the cards that we are given.

    • Replies: @anonymous coward
    @Mikel


    I do NOT like the idea of a Church or any other authority dictating who must procreate with whom.
     
    The equivocation in your post is simply disgusting.

    "Sex" to procreation is as chewing gum is to food.

    "Sex", as the moderns practice it, is what you do precisely so you don't successfully procreate.

    Now, sometimes accidents happen and "sex" does, indeed, lead to procreation, but the modern world views this as a horrible disaster and failure in safety practices, not as a natural result.

    If you want to save the West and not be relegated to an extinct tribe, the first thing you must do is to get rid of "sex".
  424. Water Refugees Heading for Water-Rich Europe

    As various reports show India approaching ‘Day Zero’ (the day when a place’s taps dry out and people have to stand in line to collect a daily quota of water), a top Indian expert has warned that Indians may soon become “water refugees” who’ll migrate to water-rich European countries. Rajendra Singh, a Magsaysay-winning conservationist and environmentalist, and popularly known as the “Waterman of India”, made this statement at the recently-concluded Stockholm International Water Institute.

    India is one of the most water-stressed countries in the world, with almost 50 percent of the country facing drought-like situation. In fact, 21 major Indian cities will start running out of groundwater by next year, affecting millions. But Singh adds that as more than 70 percent of aquifers in India dry up, people are going to start migrating westwards unless we fix it. He compared the situation to parched regions in Africa and Asia, from where people have migrated to European states and precipitated political crisis among and within the EU states. He also added that this may disturb the harmony of the world.

    However, even though it seems like much is lost, Singh says things can still be fixed. One could be to discontinue the use of mechanised herbicides and pesticides, which are messing with the water aquifer system. Other ways to salvage the crisis, he said, would be to develop water harvesting systems to protect our reservoirs from drying up in the sun. This way, the country can develop reserve banks of water even when there’s a drought-like situation. He also stressed on indigenous methods of water management, designed by the local people.

    But with the statistics suggesting much is lost, it’s safe to say that India is running out of time. “In fact, we have lost all the time to act,” said Singh. “A country whose 70 percent aquifers are dry has no time left.”

    Why you should A) care about environmentalism and B) why you should care how other countries in the third world are doing on that score.

    I happen to be less pessimistic than this guy. I think most of the issues are due to mismanagement and desalination plants, while not a silver bullet, are probably an underutilised resource. But the issue is serious and needs international attention.

    But most of the right-wing is too stupid and too narrow-minded to bother thinking about longer term issues except on demography and especially caring about developmental issues in the third world. You’re not going to shoot tens of millions of people migrating and if you think you are, you’re just a LARPer on the internet.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    @Thulean Friend

    If the state isn't willing to defend its boundaries with force, including or perhaps especially against sympathetic women and children, then the boundaries might as well not exist.

    That of course doesn't mean that one should ignore environmental (or other) issues or prefer a violent solution over precautionary measures. Really, the appropriate strategy is defense in depth in which violence is the last line of defense. But that line must exist.

    And as for India's water issues, I'm not sure how we solve their water problems. Witness Macron's recent jungle safari to see how such overtures are received.

  425. @AnonFromTN
    @AP

    Did you read that whole page? BTW, Ukrainian-Americans are in the 25th place, not 22nd.

    However, here are the other entrants:

    8. Russian American (2016): $77,841

    Worse yet, between Russian-Americans and Ukrainian-Americans there are 16 places. To add insult to injury, they are occupied, among others, by

    10. Bulgarian American (2016): $76,862
    13 Slovene American (2016) : $75,940
    14 Basque American (2016) : $75,864
    15 Lebanese American (2016): $75,337
    17 Sri Lankan American: $73,856
    19 Chinese American (2016): $73,788
    21 Malaysian American (2016): $72,827
    23 Iranian American (2016) : $72,733

    So, if you promote tribal pride, you shouldn’t have referred to this page. Your only hope is that Wiki is lying in this, like in everything else.

    Replies: @AP, @Mikel

    So what is in your mind insulting about having a lower household income than Basque or Slovenian Americans? Do you have any idea of what the per capita income of those nationalities is in their home countries and how it compares to the Ukrainian and Russian ones?

    That wikipedia entry is any case of little value because most American households contain mixed ancestries and the income of the few whose members all come from some single foreign country are distorted by the patterns of emigration that brought those people here, such as skilled-work and business visas.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Mikel


    That wikipedia entry is any case of little value because most American households contain mixed ancestries
     
    I don't think the census entry was limited to single-ancestry people. People just chose their primary one.

    This is what it looks like:

    https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/4360237/pages/DH-1-051617-p2-normal.gif


    the income of the few whose members all come from some single foreign country are distorted by the patterns of emigration that brought those people here, such as skilled-work and business visas.
     
    This may be true of small groups like Bulgarians (only 55,000 or so) but not so true of large groups like Italians (17 million), Ukrainians (nearly a million), Poles (10.5 million) etc. Or even Slovenes (170,000 of them).

    Replies: @Rattus Norwegius

    , @AnonFromTN
    @Mikel

    Personally, I don’t believe anything Wiki (or NYT, or WaPo, or CNN) is saying. What’s more, I deeply despise primeval tribalist mentality. I agree with your point, which is the point Disraeli made long ago, that there are lies, blatant lies, and statistics. However, this must be insulting for the tribalists, like AP appears to be.

  426. @Mikel
    @AnonFromTN

    So what is in your mind insulting about having a lower household income than Basque or Slovenian Americans? Do you have any idea of what the per capita income of those nationalities is in their home countries and how it compares to the Ukrainian and Russian ones?

    That wikipedia entry is any case of little value because most American households contain mixed ancestries and the income of the few whose members all come from some single foreign country are distorted by the patterns of emigration that brought those people here, such as skilled-work and business visas.

    Replies: @AP, @AnonFromTN

    That wikipedia entry is any case of little value because most American households contain mixed ancestries

    I don’t think the census entry was limited to single-ancestry people. People just chose their primary one.

    This is what it looks like:

    the income of the few whose members all come from some single foreign country are distorted by the patterns of emigration that brought those people here, such as skilled-work and business visas.

    This may be true of small groups like Bulgarians (only 55,000 or so) but not so true of large groups like Italians (17 million), Ukrainians (nearly a million), Poles (10.5 million) etc. Or even Slovenes (170,000 of them).

    • Replies: @Rattus Norwegius
    @AP

    Are there not many Americans that are unable to chose a primary ancestry?

    Replies: @AP

  427. @AP
    @AnonFromTN


    Did you read that whole page? BTW, Ukrainian-Americans are in the 25th place, not 22nd.
     
    I mistakenly wrote 23rd, not 22nd. But it is 25th out of 97.

    However, here are the other entrants:

    8. Russian American (2016): $77,841

    Worse yet, between Russian-Americans and Ukrainian-Americans there are 16 places. To add insult to injury, they are occupied, among others, by
     
    Most Russians include Jews. Jews are not a separate category. There are Israelis and Russians, tow of the richest groups on the census.

    Asians and Lebanese are of course wealthy. Iranians are rich exiles who fled the Revolution. There are few Bulgarians, they are probably some academics or elites. There is nothing surprising here.

    Compare Ukrainian Americans to most common Americans:

    1. Indian American (2016) : $110,026

    24. Italian American (2016) : $72,586
    25. Ukrainian American (2016): $72,449

    28. Scottish American (2016): $71,925[2]
    30. Swedish American (2016): $71,217
    31. Polish American (2016): $71,172
    43. English American (2016) : $67,663
    46. German American (2016): $67,306[2]
    47. Irish American (2016) : $66,688
    53. Scotch-Irish American (2016) : $64,187

    65. Cuban American : $57,000
    93. Mexican American : $38,000

    Replies: @AnonFromTN, @Rattus Norwegius, @Spisarevski

    Would be interesting to know when the ancestors of the nationalites listed arrived in USA. Aswell as how Americans of mixed ancestry are counted, and compare to “pure” nationalites.

    For example does Irish American include only recent immigrants, or does it also include the descendants of prior immigrants? Most likely both, but the proportion of recent to distant migration background is probably weighted most heavily in the distant direction. Ukrainian Americans are probably the opposite, which suggests that the Ukrainians that came to America had a higher educational background, than the Irish.

    Another factor that needs to be taken into account is the urban to rural ratio of the different nationalites. My guess is that German, English and Scoth-Irish Americans, are more likely to be rural than Italian or Indian Americans.

  428. @AP
    @Mikel


    That wikipedia entry is any case of little value because most American households contain mixed ancestries
     
    I don't think the census entry was limited to single-ancestry people. People just chose their primary one.

    This is what it looks like:

    https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/4360237/pages/DH-1-051617-p2-normal.gif


    the income of the few whose members all come from some single foreign country are distorted by the patterns of emigration that brought those people here, such as skilled-work and business visas.
     
    This may be true of small groups like Bulgarians (only 55,000 or so) but not so true of large groups like Italians (17 million), Ukrainians (nearly a million), Poles (10.5 million) etc. Or even Slovenes (170,000 of them).

    Replies: @Rattus Norwegius

    Are there not many Americans that are unable to chose a primary ancestry?

    • Replies: @AP
    @Rattus Norwegius

    I doubt it. Everyone has a vague idea, at least. Biracial people can choose both.

    Replies: @Rattus Norwegius

  429. @AP
    @Korenchkin


    I only ever see Ukranians, Mongol fetishists and idiot Nordicists(the kind that want Russia to be reduced to just Novgorod-Moscow-Petrograd) claim certain Slavs are not real Slavs
     
    So do geneticists:

    https://www.nature.com/articles/jhg200754.pdf?proof=true

    If we split the Slavs into 2 groups the North and South (Divided by Hungary and Romania) then the most distinct haplogroup is R1a for Northern and I2a for Southern
    Anatoly himself is only 50% R1a master race,

     

    50% is the Slavic baseline. Different Slavic nations vary from thjso baseline - Russians are mixed a little with Finnic people, Poles with Germans, Ukrainians with Balkanoids, Belarussians with Baltic people (who are very much like Slavs anyways). But all of these people are Slavs.

    People like Serbs are not Slavs with some other admixture. They are the "other" , with some Slav admixture.

    Slavic language came from people moving south, which is why Slavic-speaking Balkanoids are about 25% descended from those northerners while non-Slavic speaking Balkanoid Albanians are not.

    Saying "If we split the Slavs into 2 groups the North and South " is like saying "if you split Spanish people into two groups European and Central American" and pretending that Aztec/Mayan ancestry is one type of Spanish ancestry. No.

    Replies: @Korenchkin

    You sabotage your argument by trying to make meme comparisons with different races from entirely different continents
    Theres far less genetic difference between Poles and Croats or Russians and Bulgarians then with any European group and Latin Americans or Sub Saharan Africans

    A more apt comparison would be Danes and Germans, Irish and Brits or even North and South Italians

    Slavs are a European Ethno-Linguistic group, not some sort of trans-atlantic mixture
    So instead of splitting Spanish speakers this would be like splitting European Germanic people into two groups

    • Replies: @AP
    @Korenchkin


    You sabotage your argument by trying to make meme comparisons with different races from entirely different continents
    Theres far less genetic difference between Poles and Croats or Russians and Bulgarians then with any European group and Latin Americans or Sub Saharan Africans
     
    I was using the analogy to point out not extent of differences but extent of descent.

    Of course differences are much smaller between different European peoples. I am not claiming that Balkanoids are as different from Slavs as American black are from Europeans, or Guatemalan Mestizos are from Spaniards. However their Slavic descent is as small as is American blacks' European descent.

    So a Balkanoid may be more like a Russian than is a half-Russian, half-African. But the half-Russian-half African will have more Slavic descent than will the Balkanoid.

    So this half-Russian, half-African soccer player is more of a Slav by blood than is any hardcore Serb nationalist:

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c5/27_Stanislav_Lebamba.jpg/220px-27_Stanislav_Lebamba.jpg

    Or, an Italian will be more like a Spaniard than is a Guatemalan Mestizo. But the Guatemalan Mestizo will still have more Spanish descent than does the Italian. (I used Guatemalans because they are about 25% European; Mexican Mestizos are 40%+ European, which is more European than Balkanoids are Slavic).

    Replies: @Korenchkin, @Epigon, @Dmitry

  430. @Mikel
    @TheTotallyAnonymous


    I think you have unknowingly contradicted yourself with the parts in bold.
     
    You must think harder and try to understand what the term average means.

    The sexual and romantic life of below-average men has always been very difficult. And they didn't have all the dating opportunities that are currently available. You must be very young if you think that you're witnessing anything new.

    But if the situation of these men is of great concern to you, the most practical measure is to allow grown-up women who are willing to cater for the urges of these men in exchange for money to do so. That alleviates the sexual part of this problem considerably (so much so that, even if you don't allow it, members of both groups will do it anyway, as they have throughout history).

    I do NOT like the idea of a Church or any other authority dictating who must procreate with whom. But I don't think that my preferred way of arranging reproduction: monogamous and stable families, is the most eugenic one, especially in these times of higher classes having less offspring than the lower ones.

    I have already read about the female "hypergamous" tendencies by Devlin before. Somebody provided a link on this site not long ago. To be honest, I don't feel the need to learn through an online manifesto much more more about women than I already know. Women also have their very big problems, especially the below-average looking ones. We all just do what we can with the cards that we are given.

    Replies: @anonymous coward

    I do NOT like the idea of a Church or any other authority dictating who must procreate with whom.

    The equivocation in your post is simply disgusting.

    “Sex” to procreation is as chewing gum is to food.

    “Sex”, as the moderns practice it, is what you do precisely so you don’t successfully procreate.

    Now, sometimes accidents happen and “sex” does, indeed, lead to procreation, but the modern world views this as a horrible disaster and failure in safety practices, not as a natural result.

    If you want to save the West and not be relegated to an extinct tribe, the first thing you must do is to get rid of “sex”.

  431. @reiner Tor
    @Simpleguest

    When have Russians organized anything as well as the Swiss do? The answer is never. Have Russians organized trains which are never (okay, rarely) late? In a very small corner of their country?

    Russia got big by being situated next to the steppe and Siberia. It was very bad until others elsewhere invented firearms, which the Russians adapted, and then could conquer the steppe nomads and Siberia relatively easily. (It also helped that the nomads empire was in the disintegration phase.) Russia would never have gotten that big in the middle of Europe cramped between other similar countries.

    Anyway, I cannot believe I’m here debating the very big brained idea that the Russians are better at organizing things than the Swiss.

    Replies: @anonymous coward, @Simpleguest, @AP, @melanf, @Anatoly Karlin, @anonymous coward

    Have Russians organized trains which are never (okay, rarely) late?

    Russian trains are never late. A 10 minute delay for a cross-country train is counted as an emergency and happens maybe once a year.

    Now compare to German trains, lol.

    In short, I applaud your mastery of dumb memes. Your grasp of reality – not so much.

    • Replies: @Korenchkin
    @anonymous coward

    There is a noticable push to erase the "be happy the train arrived at all" mentality in Eastern Europe
    Sovok organizers finally retiring

    Replies: @anonymous coward

    , @reiner Tor
    @anonymous coward

    Okay, I chose a bad example.

  432. @anonymous coward
    @reiner Tor


    Have Russians organized trains which are never (okay, rarely) late?
     
    Russian trains are never late. A 10 minute delay for a cross-country train is counted as an emergency and happens maybe once a year.

    Now compare to German trains, lol.

    In short, I applaud your mastery of dumb memes. Your grasp of reality - not so much.

    Replies: @Korenchkin, @reiner Tor

    There is a noticable push to erase the “be happy the train arrived at all” mentality in Eastern Europe
    Sovok organizers finally retiring

    • Replies: @anonymous coward
    @Korenchkin

    Russia is not Eastern Europe. The trains ran on time during Soviet times too.

    In that sense Russia is a Northern European country - there is a a huge mentality of bureaucracy and ordnung in Russia that could put Germans to shame.

    (But in other areas like family structures not so much Northern European at all.)

  433. @Korenchkin
    @anonymous coward

    There is a noticable push to erase the "be happy the train arrived at all" mentality in Eastern Europe
    Sovok organizers finally retiring

    Replies: @anonymous coward

    Russia is not Eastern Europe. The trains ran on time during Soviet times too.

    In that sense Russia is a Northern European country – there is a a huge mentality of bureaucracy and ordnung in Russia that could put Germans to shame.

    (But in other areas like family structures not so much Northern European at all.)

    • LOL: AP
  434. @reiner Tor
    @Simpleguest

    When have Russians organized anything as well as the Swiss do? The answer is never. Have Russians organized trains which are never (okay, rarely) late? In a very small corner of their country?

    Russia got big by being situated next to the steppe and Siberia. It was very bad until others elsewhere invented firearms, which the Russians adapted, and then could conquer the steppe nomads and Siberia relatively easily. (It also helped that the nomads empire was in the disintegration phase.) Russia would never have gotten that big in the middle of Europe cramped between other similar countries.

    Anyway, I cannot believe I’m here debating the very big brained idea that the Russians are better at organizing things than the Swiss.

    Replies: @anonymous coward, @Simpleguest, @AP, @melanf, @Anatoly Karlin, @anonymous coward

    “Anyway, I cannot believe I’m here debating the very big brained idea that the Russians are better at organizing things than the Swiss.”

    Rating needs similar metrics and similar order of magnitudes, hence the question, that you ignored by the way.

    We’ll never know how good Swiss are at running a system that ferries their entire population in a day, every day, all year long, like Moscow subway does.
    Here is another metric: how good are the Swiss at organizing a transportation system that ferries 100 million people over one weekend like Chinese do during the Lunar New Year?

    Instead, you raise the “beaten to death” cliche of Swiss trains running on time. LOL.

    • Replies: @Beckow
    @Simpleguest


    ...cliche of Swiss trains running on time.
     
    The trains run on time because they are very slow. Switzerland is not that well organised. It is tightly controlled, and people generally behave well, but the pace is leisurely and incompetence quite common.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN, @reiner Tor

    , @reiner Tor
    @Simpleguest


    We’ll never know how good Swiss are at running a system that ferries their entire population in a day, every day, all year long, like Moscow subway does.
     
    Well, I know how good the Swiss would be at running such a system (quite good, as they are quite good at organizing anything), but I agree with you wholeheartedly that you will never know that.

    Replies: @Simpleguest

  435. @AP
    @Beckow


    I would like a society where families with children are heavily preferred, divorce is limited, and abnormal behaviors are pushed to the margins. But we had societies like that and they turned out to be unstable
     
    They were stable for over a thousand years. In terms of social norms and customs, "Christendom" probably stabilized around 700, and became unstable in the 18th century (on a societal level the disease started in France, then spread from there).

    Replies: @Beckow

    I am a fan of middle ages, but in this case my timeframe was more recent. There seems to be an inevitable ‘liberal‘ reaction after a few generations in most traditional societies. It is currently raging completely out of control in the West, but the initial impulse was not all bad. Whatever it is, we need to accommodate it. (I am on the record as being opposed to chastity belts.)

  436. @Rattus Norwegius
    @AP

    Are there not many Americans that are unable to chose a primary ancestry?

    Replies: @AP

    I doubt it. Everyone has a vague idea, at least. Biracial people can choose both.

    • Replies: @Rattus Norwegius
    @AP

    There must be many people who are 1/2 Germand and 1/2 Irish, what should they chose? Others might be 1/2 Ukrainian, 1/4 German and 1/4 English.

    Also some nationalities and ancestral backgrounds might be more popular than others. Is it cooler to be Italian American, Irish American, Jewish American, Turkish American or German American?


    From Wikipedia on English Americans.
    "Demographers regard the reported number of English Americans as a serious undercount, as the index of inconsistency is high and many if not most Americans from English stock have a tendency to identify simply as "Americans"[6][7][8][9] or if of mixed European ancestry, identify with a more recent and differentiated ethnic group."

    Replies: @AP

  437. @Simpleguest
    @reiner Tor

    "Anyway, I cannot believe I’m here debating the very big brained idea that the Russians are better at organizing things than the Swiss."

    Rating needs similar metrics and similar order of magnitudes, hence the question, that you ignored by the way.

    We'll never know how good Swiss are at running a system that ferries their entire population in a day, every day, all year long, like Moscow subway does.
    Here is another metric: how good are the Swiss at organizing a transportation system that ferries 100 million people over one weekend like Chinese do during the Lunar New Year?

    Instead, you raise the "beaten to death" cliche of Swiss trains running on time. LOL.

    Replies: @Beckow, @reiner Tor

    …cliche of Swiss trains running on time.

    The trains run on time because they are very slow. Switzerland is not that well organised. It is tightly controlled, and people generally behave well, but the pace is leisurely and incompetence quite common.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    @Beckow

    In my experience, there is only one country where the trains always run on time – Japan. Their railway service would collapse otherwise: many East-West lines across mountains are single track, with the second track only at stations. Their high speed (Shinkansen) lines are used by trains with different speeds and number of stops. Switzerland comes second in terms of timeliness. Germany is nowhere near that. Swiss have other quirks. E.g., their ticket machine on a station near Zurich first asked me what language I prefer: German, English, or French. I found experimentally that regardless of your answer, it talks to you only in German after that.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    , @reiner Tor
    @Beckow

    Swiss trains are not very fast (mountains and all that), but I don't think they're any slower than trains in Slovakia.


    Switzerland is not that well organised.
     
    LOL

    the pace is leisurely
     
    The Swiss don't work a lot. They work well. In that, they are pretty similar to the Japanese (though the Japanese have the edge, obviously). The Japanese also work more, at least nominally (though much of the time they spend nominally at work is not connected to doing the job).

    and incompetence quite common.
     
    Common relative to what? They now have lots of non-Swiss working everywhere, almost a quarter of their population is foreigner, and that number doesn't include naturalized foreigners or half-foreigners and their descendants.

    Replies: @anonymous coward, @Dmitry

  438. @Korenchkin
    @AP

    You sabotage your argument by trying to make meme comparisons with different races from entirely different continents
    Theres far less genetic difference between Poles and Croats or Russians and Bulgarians then with any European group and Latin Americans or Sub Saharan Africans

    A more apt comparison would be Danes and Germans, Irish and Brits or even North and South Italians

    Slavs are a European Ethno-Linguistic group, not some sort of trans-atlantic mixture
    So instead of splitting Spanish speakers this would be like splitting European Germanic people into two groups

    Replies: @AP

    You sabotage your argument by trying to make meme comparisons with different races from entirely different continents
    Theres far less genetic difference between Poles and Croats or Russians and Bulgarians then with any European group and Latin Americans or Sub Saharan Africans

    I was using the analogy to point out not extent of differences but extent of descent.

    Of course differences are much smaller between different European peoples. I am not claiming that Balkanoids are as different from Slavs as American black are from Europeans, or Guatemalan Mestizos are from Spaniards. However their Slavic descent is as small as is American blacks’ European descent.

    So a Balkanoid may be more like a Russian than is a half-Russian, half-African. But the half-Russian-half African will have more Slavic descent than will the Balkanoid.

    So this half-Russian, half-African soccer player is more of a Slav by blood than is any hardcore Serb nationalist:

    Or, an Italian will be more like a Spaniard than is a Guatemalan Mestizo. But the Guatemalan Mestizo will still have more Spanish descent than does the Italian. (I used Guatemalans because they are about 25% European; Mexican Mestizos are 40%+ European, which is more European than Balkanoids are Slavic).

    • Replies: @Korenchkin
    @AP

    I disagree

    , @Epigon
    @AP

    You base your claims on small sample researches done on modern day population in Serbia. Significant number of Gypsies (different subgroups), Cincars, Albanians, Montenegrins, Slavomacedonians, Hungarians and AH minorities assimilated/intermarried into Serbian ethnos in the last 200 years.

    To realistically gauge Serb genetics, three distinct subgroups should have been sampled - Herzegovina, Militärgrenze and Vojvodina aboriginals, not recent arrivals. These 3 groups were both isolated from another and didn’t mix with surrounding peoples. However, those who are aware of it and knowledgeable enough either don’t care or don’t commission genetical research, while those that carry them out are either foreigners or local Fachidioten. The same for average male height stats.

    Replies: @Korenchkin, @AP

    , @Dmitry
    @AP

    Nationalities like Serbs and Bosnians are probably descendants of the Ancient Illyrians.

    However, racially/genetically what do you mean by pure Slavs. Poles?

    Genetically, Poles are unrelated to the Balkans races, but also not very related to a lot of Russia from around East from Nizhny Novgorod or North from Rybinsk.
    https://i.imgur.com/5eIO80u.png

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Mikhail

  439. @reiner Tor
    @Simpleguest

    When have Russians organized anything as well as the Swiss do? The answer is never. Have Russians organized trains which are never (okay, rarely) late? In a very small corner of their country?

    Russia got big by being situated next to the steppe and Siberia. It was very bad until others elsewhere invented firearms, which the Russians adapted, and then could conquer the steppe nomads and Siberia relatively easily. (It also helped that the nomads empire was in the disintegration phase.) Russia would never have gotten that big in the middle of Europe cramped between other similar countries.

    Anyway, I cannot believe I’m here debating the very big brained idea that the Russians are better at organizing things than the Swiss.

    Replies: @anonymous coward, @Simpleguest, @AP, @melanf, @Anatoly Karlin, @anonymous coward

    The Moscow metro is always on time and comes every 2 minutes or less.

    But otherwise Russia is not a terribly time-oriented society.

  440. @Korenchkin
    I only ever see Ukranians, Mongol fetishists and idiot Nordicists(the kind that want Russia to be reduced to just Novgorod-Moscow-Petrograd) claim certain Slavs are not real Slavs because
    I figure this deserves some discussion

    There is no Slav exclusive genetic makeup, partly because Slavs aren't inbred Ashkenazis and partly because Slavs inhabited the area from Szeczin in the Baltic to Salonica on the Aegean and from the Elbe to the Pacific
    This does not mean that any Churka can claim to be a Slav, but
    Large chunks of German, Romanian, Albanian, Hungarian and Finno-Baltic peoples have identical genetic makeups as certain Polish, Ukranian, Serbian and Bulgarian groups, this is partly due to Communist regimes forcing minorities to convert to certain ethnicities and partly due to natural exchanges of population that happen gradually over centuries (it's mostly the latter)

    If we split the Slavs into 2 groups the North and South (Divided by Hungary and Romania) then the most distinct haplogroup is R1a for Northern and I2a for Southern
    Anatoly himself is only 50% R1a master race, but I doubt he or anyone else would call him a half-Slav unless they were very autistic or just doing it for the sake of trolling

    Karlin would probably like some sort of set of genetic lines based around gene usefulness (high IQ, good health, etc.) getting defined for each group and Government policy encouraging procreation of certain genes over others, perhaps editing them into future generations, so every child in the Slavic Meme Union is as Blonde and intelligent as an R1a IndoEuro and tall and strong as a I2 ProtoEuro (apply narrative and stereotypes at your leisure)

    https://lundiak.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/europe_hg_with_predominant.png

    Replies: @AP, @Anatoly Karlin

    Anatoly himself is only 50% R1a master race, but I doubt he or anyone else would call him a half-Slav unless they were very autistic or just doing it for the sake of trolling

    ~65% Slav.

  441. @Thulean Friend
    @Anatoly Karlin

    This post basically just confirms that AK is nothing more than a racist libertarian. How is being against alcoholism "against your interests"? Laughably silly.

    Replies: @Anatoly Karlin

    How is being against alcoholism “against your interests”?

    Where did I say that? It is a major problem in Russia, though much receded in recent years. It is an almost inconsequential issue in most Western countries (only exception, and extremely partial even so: Finland).

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    @Anatoly Karlin

    It's not an inconsequential issue.



    Alcohol is the single most used and abused drug in America. According to the National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism (NIAAA), nearly 14 million Americans (1 in every 13 adults) abuse alcohol or are alcoholics. Several million more adults engage in risky drinking patterns that could lead to alcohol problems. The costs to society in terms of lost productivity, health care costs, traffic accidents, and personal tragedies are staggering. Numerous studies and reports have been issued on the workplace costs of alcoholism and alcohol abuse, and they report costs that range from $33 billion to $68 billion per year. Alcohol is a major factor in injuries, both at home, at work, and on the road. Nearly half of all traffic fatalities involve alcohol. Please see the Appendix - The Disease of Alcoholism for a further discussion of alcoholism.

    In the workplace, the costs of alcoholism and alcohol abuse manifest themselves in many different ways. Absenteeism is estimated to be 4 to 8 times greater among alcoholics and alcohol abusers. Other family members of alcoholics also have greater rates of absenteeism. Accidents and on-the-job injuries are far more prevalent among alcoholics and alcohol abusers.
     
    https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/worklife/reference-materials/alcoholism-in-the-workplace-a-handbook-for-supervisors/

    I'll add a caveat that a lot of do-gooders tend to set the bar for alcoholism too low, but it's unlikely it's set so low that the quoted figures are off by an order of magnitude.

    And as noted previously, today alcoholism is frequently bound up with other forms of drug abuse which are often far more harmful.

    With the exception of DUI enforcement, the issue is also mostly ignored. Alcohol consumption has increased in this century, and formally taboo activities such as daytime drinking or even drinking while buying groceries have been normalized.

    That said, alcohol abuse in the West is substantially lower than it was a half-century ago during the heyday of the three martini lunch.

    Replies: @Anatoly Karlin

  442. @reiner Tor
    @Simpleguest

    When have Russians organized anything as well as the Swiss do? The answer is never. Have Russians organized trains which are never (okay, rarely) late? In a very small corner of their country?

    Russia got big by being situated next to the steppe and Siberia. It was very bad until others elsewhere invented firearms, which the Russians adapted, and then could conquer the steppe nomads and Siberia relatively easily. (It also helped that the nomads empire was in the disintegration phase.) Russia would never have gotten that big in the middle of Europe cramped between other similar countries.

    Anyway, I cannot believe I’m here debating the very big brained idea that the Russians are better at organizing things than the Swiss.

    Replies: @anonymous coward, @Simpleguest, @AP, @melanf, @Anatoly Karlin, @anonymous coward

    When have Russians organized anything as well as the Swiss do? The answer is never. Have Russians organized trains which are never (okay, rarely) late? In a very small corner of their country?

    For Switzerland will not say, but where I live (St. Petersburg) trains go undoubtedly more accurately than in Germany (where for two days I was surprised to see the constant delay of trains).

    I take the train to work almost every day and these trains are never (okay, very rarely) late

  443. @AP
    @Rattus Norwegius

    I doubt it. Everyone has a vague idea, at least. Biracial people can choose both.

    Replies: @Rattus Norwegius

    There must be many people who are 1/2 Germand and 1/2 Irish, what should they chose? Others might be 1/2 Ukrainian, 1/4 German and 1/4 English.

    Also some nationalities and ancestral backgrounds might be more popular than others. Is it cooler to be Italian American, Irish American, Jewish American, Turkish American or German American?

    From Wikipedia on English Americans.
    “Demographers regard the reported number of English Americans as a serious undercount, as the index of inconsistency is high and many if not most Americans from English stock have a tendency to identify simply as “Americans”[6][7][8][9] or if of mixed European ancestry, identify with a more recent and differentiated ethnic group.”

    • Replies: @AP
    @Rattus Norwegius

    If someone insists on more than one, there is a line at the very bottom for some other one. However, I suspect most just go with whatever they feel closest to for some reason. If they were close to their Irish mother but not their Italian father, they will mark Irish. Or if they are half Irish, 1/4 German and 1/4 Polish they will mark Irish.

    Ukrainians tended to come later, to have more of an anti-mixing ideology, and have infrastructure to limit mixing (such as their own Catholic or Orthodox Churches), so they are purer than most of the other European ethnicities.

  444. @reiner Tor
    @Simpleguest

    When have Russians organized anything as well as the Swiss do? The answer is never. Have Russians organized trains which are never (okay, rarely) late? In a very small corner of their country?

    Russia got big by being situated next to the steppe and Siberia. It was very bad until others elsewhere invented firearms, which the Russians adapted, and then could conquer the steppe nomads and Siberia relatively easily. (It also helped that the nomads empire was in the disintegration phase.) Russia would never have gotten that big in the middle of Europe cramped between other similar countries.

    Anyway, I cannot believe I’m here debating the very big brained idea that the Russians are better at organizing things than the Swiss.

    Replies: @anonymous coward, @Simpleguest, @AP, @melanf, @Anatoly Karlin, @anonymous coward

    In general, correct, but you picked perhaps the worst possible example. 🙂

  445. @AP
    @Korenchkin


    You sabotage your argument by trying to make meme comparisons with different races from entirely different continents
    Theres far less genetic difference between Poles and Croats or Russians and Bulgarians then with any European group and Latin Americans or Sub Saharan Africans
     
    I was using the analogy to point out not extent of differences but extent of descent.

    Of course differences are much smaller between different European peoples. I am not claiming that Balkanoids are as different from Slavs as American black are from Europeans, or Guatemalan Mestizos are from Spaniards. However their Slavic descent is as small as is American blacks' European descent.

    So a Balkanoid may be more like a Russian than is a half-Russian, half-African. But the half-Russian-half African will have more Slavic descent than will the Balkanoid.

    So this half-Russian, half-African soccer player is more of a Slav by blood than is any hardcore Serb nationalist:

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c5/27_Stanislav_Lebamba.jpg/220px-27_Stanislav_Lebamba.jpg

    Or, an Italian will be more like a Spaniard than is a Guatemalan Mestizo. But the Guatemalan Mestizo will still have more Spanish descent than does the Italian. (I used Guatemalans because they are about 25% European; Mexican Mestizos are 40%+ European, which is more European than Balkanoids are Slavic).

    Replies: @Korenchkin, @Epigon, @Dmitry

    I disagree

  446. @Rattus Norwegius
    @AP

    There must be many people who are 1/2 Germand and 1/2 Irish, what should they chose? Others might be 1/2 Ukrainian, 1/4 German and 1/4 English.

    Also some nationalities and ancestral backgrounds might be more popular than others. Is it cooler to be Italian American, Irish American, Jewish American, Turkish American or German American?


    From Wikipedia on English Americans.
    "Demographers regard the reported number of English Americans as a serious undercount, as the index of inconsistency is high and many if not most Americans from English stock have a tendency to identify simply as "Americans"[6][7][8][9] or if of mixed European ancestry, identify with a more recent and differentiated ethnic group."

    Replies: @AP

    If someone insists on more than one, there is a line at the very bottom for some other one. However, I suspect most just go with whatever they feel closest to for some reason. If they were close to their Irish mother but not their Italian father, they will mark Irish. Or if they are half Irish, 1/4 German and 1/4 Polish they will mark Irish.

    Ukrainians tended to come later, to have more of an anti-mixing ideology, and have infrastructure to limit mixing (such as their own Catholic or Orthodox Churches), so they are purer than most of the other European ethnicities.

  447. @AP
    @Korenchkin


    You sabotage your argument by trying to make meme comparisons with different races from entirely different continents
    Theres far less genetic difference between Poles and Croats or Russians and Bulgarians then with any European group and Latin Americans or Sub Saharan Africans
     
    I was using the analogy to point out not extent of differences but extent of descent.

    Of course differences are much smaller between different European peoples. I am not claiming that Balkanoids are as different from Slavs as American black are from Europeans, or Guatemalan Mestizos are from Spaniards. However their Slavic descent is as small as is American blacks' European descent.

    So a Balkanoid may be more like a Russian than is a half-Russian, half-African. But the half-Russian-half African will have more Slavic descent than will the Balkanoid.

    So this half-Russian, half-African soccer player is more of a Slav by blood than is any hardcore Serb nationalist:

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c5/27_Stanislav_Lebamba.jpg/220px-27_Stanislav_Lebamba.jpg

    Or, an Italian will be more like a Spaniard than is a Guatemalan Mestizo. But the Guatemalan Mestizo will still have more Spanish descent than does the Italian. (I used Guatemalans because they are about 25% European; Mexican Mestizos are 40%+ European, which is more European than Balkanoids are Slavic).

    Replies: @Korenchkin, @Epigon, @Dmitry

    You base your claims on small sample researches done on modern day population in Serbia. Significant number of Gypsies (different subgroups), Cincars, Albanians, Montenegrins, Slavomacedonians, Hungarians and AH minorities assimilated/intermarried into Serbian ethnos in the last 200 years.

    To realistically gauge Serb genetics, three distinct subgroups should have been sampled – Herzegovina, Militärgrenze and Vojvodina aboriginals, not recent arrivals. These 3 groups were both isolated from another and didn’t mix with surrounding peoples. However, those who are aware of it and knowledgeable enough either don’t care or don’t commission genetical research, while those that carry them out are either foreigners or local Fachidioten. The same for average male height stats.

    • Replies: @Korenchkin
    @Epigon


    Herzegovina, Militärgrenze and Vojvodina aboriginals
     
    What about isolated parts of RS?
    , @AP
    @Epigon

    An excellent response. At the very least, one can conclude that modern Serbs are only about 25% Slavic by descent. If the isolated groups you mention turn out to be as Slavic as Ukrainians, or Slovenes, or others this may indicate that medieval Serbs, unlike modern ones, were Slavs. Though it may also mean they have always been Slavs surrounded by non-Slavs, like those enclaves of blonde blue eyed people in the mountains of Pakistan.

    Has anyone analyzed medieval Serb remains?

    Replies: @Epigon

  448. @Epigon
    @AP

    You base your claims on small sample researches done on modern day population in Serbia. Significant number of Gypsies (different subgroups), Cincars, Albanians, Montenegrins, Slavomacedonians, Hungarians and AH minorities assimilated/intermarried into Serbian ethnos in the last 200 years.

    To realistically gauge Serb genetics, three distinct subgroups should have been sampled - Herzegovina, Militärgrenze and Vojvodina aboriginals, not recent arrivals. These 3 groups were both isolated from another and didn’t mix with surrounding peoples. However, those who are aware of it and knowledgeable enough either don’t care or don’t commission genetical research, while those that carry them out are either foreigners or local Fachidioten. The same for average male height stats.

    Replies: @Korenchkin, @AP

    Herzegovina, Militärgrenze and Vojvodina aboriginals

    What about isolated parts of RS?

  449. @reiner Tor
    @Simpleguest

    When have Russians organized anything as well as the Swiss do? The answer is never. Have Russians organized trains which are never (okay, rarely) late? In a very small corner of their country?

    Russia got big by being situated next to the steppe and Siberia. It was very bad until others elsewhere invented firearms, which the Russians adapted, and then could conquer the steppe nomads and Siberia relatively easily. (It also helped that the nomads empire was in the disintegration phase.) Russia would never have gotten that big in the middle of Europe cramped between other similar countries.

    Anyway, I cannot believe I’m here debating the very big brained idea that the Russians are better at organizing things than the Swiss.

    Replies: @anonymous coward, @Simpleguest, @AP, @melanf, @Anatoly Karlin, @anonymous coward

    It was very bad until others elsewhere invented firearms, which the Russians adapted, and then could conquer the steppe nomads and Siberia relatively easily.

    Siberia was conquered with this thing:
    Not with firearms. In any case, the natives there at the time already had access to firearms; it’s not as if being situated right between Europe and China stifles information flow.

    Russia conquered Siberia because Russian logistics were far and above better than anything native tribes could muster. (The same reason why Russia beat Hilter and Napoleon.)

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @anonymous coward

    Siberia was easy to conquer, because it wasn't densely populated, and its population was quite backwards anyway. But first you needed firearms to defeat the nomads who blocked your access to Siberia. It helped a great deal that the nomads' empire was in the disintegrating phase, but their decisive military advantage was destroyed by firearms.

    Replies: @melanf

  450. @Thulean Friend
    Water Refugees Heading for Water-Rich Europe

    As various reports show India approaching ‘Day Zero’ (the day when a place’s taps dry out and people have to stand in line to collect a daily quota of water), a top Indian expert has warned that Indians may soon become “water refugees” who’ll migrate to water-rich European countries. Rajendra Singh, a Magsaysay-winning conservationist and environmentalist, and popularly known as the “Waterman of India”, made this statement at the recently-concluded Stockholm International Water Institute.

    India is one of the most water-stressed countries in the world, with almost 50 percent of the country facing drought-like situation. In fact, 21 major Indian cities will start running out of groundwater by next year, affecting millions. But Singh adds that as more than 70 percent of aquifers in India dry up, people are going to start migrating westwards unless we fix it. He compared the situation to parched regions in Africa and Asia, from where people have migrated to European states and precipitated political crisis among and within the EU states. He also added that this may disturb the harmony of the world.

    However, even though it seems like much is lost, Singh says things can still be fixed. One could be to discontinue the use of mechanised herbicides and pesticides, which are messing with the water aquifer system. Other ways to salvage the crisis, he said, would be to develop water harvesting systems to protect our reservoirs from drying up in the sun. This way, the country can develop reserve banks of water even when there’s a drought-like situation. He also stressed on indigenous methods of water management, designed by the local people.

    But with the statistics suggesting much is lost, it’s safe to say that India is running out of time. “In fact, we have lost all the time to act,” said Singh. "A country whose 70 percent aquifers are dry has no time left.”


     

    Why you should A) care about environmentalism and B) why you should care how other countries in the third world are doing on that score.

    I happen to be less pessimistic than this guy. I think most of the issues are due to mismanagement and desalination plants, while not a silver bullet, are probably an underutilised resource. But the issue is serious and needs international attention.

    But most of the right-wing is too stupid and too narrow-minded to bother thinking about longer term issues except on demography and especially caring about developmental issues in the third world. You're not going to shoot tens of millions of people migrating and if you think you are, you're just a LARPer on the internet.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson

    If the state isn’t willing to defend its boundaries with force, including or perhaps especially against sympathetic women and children, then the boundaries might as well not exist.

    That of course doesn’t mean that one should ignore environmental (or other) issues or prefer a violent solution over precautionary measures. Really, the appropriate strategy is defense in depth in which violence is the last line of defense. But that line must exist.

    And as for India’s water issues, I’m not sure how we solve their water problems. Witness Macron’s recent jungle safari to see how such overtures are received.

  451. @Anatoly Karlin
    @Thulean Friend


    How is being against alcoholism “against your interests”?
     
    Where did I say that? It is a major problem in Russia, though much receded in recent years. It is an almost inconsequential issue in most Western countries (only exception, and extremely partial even so: Finland).

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson

    It’s not an inconsequential issue.

    Alcohol is the single most used and abused drug in America. According to the National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism (NIAAA), nearly 14 million Americans (1 in every 13 adults) abuse alcohol or are alcoholics. Several million more adults engage in risky drinking patterns that could lead to alcohol problems. The costs to society in terms of lost productivity, health care costs, traffic accidents, and personal tragedies are staggering. Numerous studies and reports have been issued on the workplace costs of alcoholism and alcohol abuse, and they report costs that range from $33 billion to $68 billion per year. Alcohol is a major factor in injuries, both at home, at work, and on the road. Nearly half of all traffic fatalities involve alcohol. Please see the Appendix – The Disease of Alcoholism for a further discussion of alcoholism.

    In the workplace, the costs of alcoholism and alcohol abuse manifest themselves in many different ways. Absenteeism is estimated to be 4 to 8 times greater among alcoholics and alcohol abusers. Other family members of alcoholics also have greater rates of absenteeism. Accidents and on-the-job injuries are far more prevalent among alcoholics and alcohol abusers.

    https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/worklife/reference-materials/alcoholism-in-the-workplace-a-handbook-for-supervisors/

    I’ll add a caveat that a lot of do-gooders tend to set the bar for alcoholism too low, but it’s unlikely it’s set so low that the quoted figures are off by an order of magnitude.

    And as noted previously, today alcoholism is frequently bound up with other forms of drug abuse which are often far more harmful.

    With the exception of DUI enforcement, the issue is also mostly ignored. Alcohol consumption has increased in this century, and formally taboo activities such as daytime drinking or even drinking while buying groceries have been normalized.

    That said, alcohol abuse in the West is substantially lower than it was a half-century ago during the heyday of the three martini lunch.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    @Thorfinnsson

    We are talking past each other. You are taking an uncharacteristically (for you) moralistic perspective - understandable, considering your struggle :) - I am looking at the big picture.

    $68B is a rounding error in the context of the US economy.

    In Finland, the country with the worst alcoholism problem in the West, only 2% of aggregate mortality accrued to alcohol in some way - and that was according to WHO figures more than a decade ago, it is surely even lower now.

    In the US, this figure is much lower than 1%. I.e., irrelevant.

    The opioid epidemic is not irrelevant - it is largely on account of that single factor that US LE improvements have stalled for the past decade, while they kept on improving throughout the rest of the West.

    As you correctly note, drinking was a bigger problem back in the days of American Greatness. And it was an even bigger problem for part of 19C.

    But even in the days of the "Alcoholic Republic" much less aggregate mortality accrued to alcohol abuse than in 1990s-mid 2000s Russia, when it was at 33%.

  452. @Mr. Hack
    @AnonFromTN


    In my experience in many European countries traveling Ukrainians also prefer to call themselves Russians and speak only Russian publicly. I guess they are ashamed of their insane country. Many Ukrainians traveling to Crimea (there are more than a million every year, BTW) cite normalcy as one of the things that attracts them there.
     
    I think that you're mixing up your own disgusting janissaric views with the general feeling of most Ukrainians. People including Russians, however, are a fickle bunch. Most Russians now look more favorably on the new president of Ukraine, than they do on their own relic of the KGB past, 71% to 67% if you believe Levada. It appears that most Russians actually do look unfavoraably on the strong arm tactics that the Kremlin is applying to its opposition as of late.

    https://www.intellinews.com/zelenskiy-overtakes-putin-in-russian-popularity-polls-as-russians-become-increasingly-vocal-168133/?source=ukraine

    Replies: @AnonFromTN, @Anatoly Karlin

    Repeat: polls are remarkably trustworthy. I remember how they predicted 90-95% probability of cackling hyena’s win in 2016. If it weren’t for the damn reality…

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @AnonFromTN

    Many Ukrainians traveling to Crimea (there are more than a million every year, BTW) cite normalcy as one of the things that attracts them there.

    So where do you come up with these obscure and questionable "facts"?...

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

  453. @Mikel
    @AnonFromTN

    So what is in your mind insulting about having a lower household income than Basque or Slovenian Americans? Do you have any idea of what the per capita income of those nationalities is in their home countries and how it compares to the Ukrainian and Russian ones?

    That wikipedia entry is any case of little value because most American households contain mixed ancestries and the income of the few whose members all come from some single foreign country are distorted by the patterns of emigration that brought those people here, such as skilled-work and business visas.

    Replies: @AP, @AnonFromTN

    Personally, I don’t believe anything Wiki (or NYT, or WaPo, or CNN) is saying. What’s more, I deeply despise primeval tribalist mentality. I agree with your point, which is the point Disraeli made long ago, that there are lies, blatant lies, and statistics. However, this must be insulting for the tribalists, like AP appears to be.

  454. @Gerard1234
    @AnonFromTN


    You are making a pretty common mistake: equating Ukrainians with Ukies. The difference is about the same as between Germans and Nazis. Ukies represent maybe 5% of Ukrainian population. The fraction of Ukies among Ukrainian expats in the US and Canada is much greater, because most of those people are descendants of Hitler lackeys who ran away from the Red Army to avoid being hanged as Nazi collaborators. Ukrainians and Germans are humans you can work and argue with. In contrast, Ukies and Nazis are vermin. The only way humans should deal with them is like with cockroaches: either you exterminate them, or you have a recurring problem.
     
    LOL....magnificent ( and factually correct) comment. Same thing with normal Bulgarians, and the Euro-Atlanticist filth who control their institutions and distort their history in a country that is about 85-90% russophile.

    But is if funny how Ukraine is cursed with these ukies,,,particularly the vermin who went to US and Canada. Compare them to the the Irish in America and what positive things they did for Ireland .......for instance that famous Riverdance thing - the main female and male Dancers were Americans of Irish descent......sending money to Ireland ( not dwelling to much on the IRA thing which isn't good) to the point that it is known around the world......investing in Irish businesses, promoting Irish culture in a positive and non-antagonistic way...and above all just having many talented people . Now compare that to the laughably nutjob primitive failures of ukrop descent in the US/Canada - the most useless and untalented imbeciles to have ever walked the earth. I am convinced that inbreeding is at high levels in their community


    BTW did you see that infamous picture of khokols gathered together like baboons, in an Italian court protesting the trial for murder of one of their sadistic scumbags who fought in Donbass ( killing an Italian photographer)?....it was hilarious because , like the most primitive undeveloped tribe in Africa, they were all wearing their vishivankas in the court , like is it some body armour!

    Replies: @AP, @AnonFromTN

    Those morons “helped” a lot their fellow ape, who happened to be a murderer. The judge convicted that scum and gave it an even longer prison time than the prosecution asked for. Rumor has it that its lawyer, after hearing the verdict, had a heart attack. They thought that in Europe you can behave like an utter swine and that kind of behavior helps fellow swine. Well, they could’ve learned that Italy is not their pigsty of a country if they only had brains.

  455. @Beckow
    @Simpleguest


    ...cliche of Swiss trains running on time.
     
    The trains run on time because they are very slow. Switzerland is not that well organised. It is tightly controlled, and people generally behave well, but the pace is leisurely and incompetence quite common.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN, @reiner Tor

    In my experience, there is only one country where the trains always run on time – Japan. Their railway service would collapse otherwise: many East-West lines across mountains are single track, with the second track only at stations. Their high speed (Shinkansen) lines are used by trains with different speeds and number of stops. Switzerland comes second in terms of timeliness. Germany is nowhere near that. Swiss have other quirks. E.g., their ticket machine on a station near Zurich first asked me what language I prefer: German, English, or French. I found experimentally that regardless of your answer, it talks to you only in German after that.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @AnonFromTN

    It's been a long time since I used those ticket machines, but there are four languages on offer (you forgot Italian), and I randomly chose German or English, and never had a problem with either. I've also haven't heard from anyone this particular complaint (I knew a number of English speakers not speaking any other language who visited Switzerland, usually for work related reasons). But I know of a case when it didn't work (at all), and the ticket controller showed very little flexibility, which is in general a problem with the Swiss.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

  456. @AnonFromTN
    @Mr. Hack

    Repeat: polls are remarkably trustworthy. I remember how they predicted 90-95% probability of cackling hyena’s win in 2016. If it weren’t for the damn reality…

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    Many Ukrainians traveling to Crimea (there are more than a million every year, BTW) cite normalcy as one of the things that attracts them there.

    So where do you come up with these obscure and questionable “facts”?…

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    @Mr. Hack

    This question requires two answers.

    One – numbers. There are many sites reporting that every year more than a million Ukrainian citizens cross the border to Crimea. As a Ukie, you can get info from a Ukrainian site: partial stats for 2018 are here https://apostrophe.ua/news/society/2018-10-10/stalo-izvestno-skolko-ukraintsev-syezdili-na-otdyih-k-okkupantam-v-kryim/143053

    As to reasons why Ukrainians visit Crimea in droves, there are so many interviews and videos on the web that it’s impossible to give all links. You can scan search results here https://yandex.com/video/search?text=%D1%83%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B0%20%D0%BA%D1%80%D1%8B%D0%BC%20%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%B8%D1%87%D0%B8%D0%BD%D1%8B%20%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%B5%D0%B7%D0%B4%D0%BA%D0%B8&path=wizard&noreask=1
    Some Ukrainians are even fearlessly honest https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9F7MagYs_JQ

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  457. @Epigon
    @AP

    You base your claims on small sample researches done on modern day population in Serbia. Significant number of Gypsies (different subgroups), Cincars, Albanians, Montenegrins, Slavomacedonians, Hungarians and AH minorities assimilated/intermarried into Serbian ethnos in the last 200 years.

    To realistically gauge Serb genetics, three distinct subgroups should have been sampled - Herzegovina, Militärgrenze and Vojvodina aboriginals, not recent arrivals. These 3 groups were both isolated from another and didn’t mix with surrounding peoples. However, those who are aware of it and knowledgeable enough either don’t care or don’t commission genetical research, while those that carry them out are either foreigners or local Fachidioten. The same for average male height stats.

    Replies: @Korenchkin, @AP

    An excellent response. At the very least, one can conclude that modern Serbs are only about 25% Slavic by descent. If the isolated groups you mention turn out to be as Slavic as Ukrainians, or Slovenes, or others this may indicate that medieval Serbs, unlike modern ones, were Slavs. Though it may also mean they have always been Slavs surrounded by non-Slavs, like those enclaves of blonde blue eyed people in the mountains of Pakistan.

    Has anyone analyzed medieval Serb remains?

    • Replies: @Epigon
    @AP

    How do you find the Slavic content in an individual looking at Y-DNA research? Would that mean that R1a Indians are more Slavic than Carpathian and west Rus' I2a?

    There is a thorough genetical research underway - Serb DNA Project. https://dnk.poreklo.rs/DNK-projekat/
    It laid to rest Turk nonsense peddled by some, while discovering even Saxon (miners, burghers), Norman (Zeta, Dyrrachion), Celtic (4th, 3rd century BC arrival) and Gothic (migration) descent among modern Serbs. Peculiarities like I1 (Scandinavian - 10.5%) presence rivaling E1b (Balkan - 13.8%) etc.

    I2a is the most prevalent single haplogroup among Serbs according to data gathered until now 33%-35% - and this I2a subgroup is apparently younger than I2a in west Ukraine and Carpathians, AND less diverse in Balkans - implying a founder effect and migration to the Balkans from their original homeland - being 2300-2500 years old.

    Serbs west of Drina have more R1a and less I2a. The best part is that Serbs in Serbia are genetically closer to Croats than to Serbs of Montenegro, not to mention Serbs of Croatia to Croats.
    There is an explanation - Serby of Lusatia have the highest R1a % in the world (60+%), and the original Serb settlement and statehood in 9th century is mostly outside of present-day Serbia. Beyond doubt, Serby of Germany and original Balkan Serbs have common ancestors, but a lot has happened in the last 1300 years.
    There are several neighboruing Slavic tribes/groups distinct from Serbs - Moravians, Timoscians, Dragovitians - who were dominant on the territory of present day Serbia initially.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fe/Serbien_9.Jhd.jpg

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/67/Balkans_in_9th_century.jpg

    https://enacademic.com/pictures/enwiki/66/Balkans950.png

    Contemporary Frankish (Annales describing the resolution of Pannonian revolt - Liudevit fled over river Sava to Serbs who hold most of Dalmatia) and Byzantine (everything south of Cetina - Serbs - Pagania, Travunia, Zachlumia, Diocleia) chronicles confirm this - so maps such as these combined with Serb architectural remains in Ston (St.Michael's church) and west Herzegovina (church ruins and inscriptions containing Nemanjić donours) prove it beyond doubt. Croats have a duty to sperg out, deny primary sources and start ranting.


    There is actually a good explanation for significantly lower E1b presence among Serbs than among neighbouring Bulgarians - medieval Serb laws explicitly forbade intermarrying of Serbs and non-Serb Balkanites, starting with code of laws by king Milutin and going all the way to Tzar Dušan. Only after Ottoman invasion and subsequent migrations would they intermarry, assimilate to form modern Serb nation.


    When it comes to genetic diversity within a single "nation", Muslim Bosniaks have no peers. Among Bosniaks of Novi Pazar/Sanjak Area, R1a is practically non-existant, while it is the dominant haplogroup in west Bosnia Bosniaks, 30+%.

    Replies: @AP

  458. @AP
    @Brutis

    So you are a central Asian? LOL.

    Replies: @Anonymoose, @Brutis

    Fk no.

    BTW, our Sixth Guru Sahib had a shield of Seal Skin from the Rus. Ty, 🙏

    I came to this blog supporting Russia, as they have our allies and are blood relatives.

    As time goes, while I have sympathy for S Russia & our people around the Urals I have great sympathy for the Ukraine.

    Their struggle is similar to our’s.

    I do feel the Russian nuclear deterrent is the only reason America has not been able to unleash the negro battalions more broadly but I will let the God’s decide this battle and fight where my passions take me.

    This is allowed in Sikhi,

    https://web.archive.org/web/20170404132933/http://www.manglacharan.com/manglacharan/2016/1/11/the-merit-of-being-of-warrior-from-dasam-and-sarbloh-granth

    ਪਰੀਯੈਨਹੀਆਨਕੇਪਾਇਨਪੈਹਰਿਕੇਗੁਰਕੇਦਿਜਕੇਪਰੀਯੈ॥ਜਿਹਕੋਜੁਗਚਾਰਮੈਨਾਉਜਪੈਤਿਹਸੋਲਰੀਯੈਮਰੀਯੈਤਰੀਯੈ॥੧੬੮੮॥
    Seek not anyone’s feet but those of Hari, the Guru, and Brahmins. He whose name is recited through the ੪ ages, against Him by fighting and dying one is carried across.
    — Krishnavatar, verse ੧੬੮੮

    We ask only that you refrain from slaughter of the Dairy Cow as did your ancestors.

    Once you are done your brothers’ wars feel free to join us in Wiping the Turk off the Face of the Earth।।

    Such is the wish of the Tenth Master.

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾ।।ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ।।

    • Replies: @AP
    @Brutis

    OK, my first instinct was right.

    By Turks do you mean (also ) Mughals?

    Replies: @Brutis

  459. @Mr. Hack
    @AnonFromTN

    Many Ukrainians traveling to Crimea (there are more than a million every year, BTW) cite normalcy as one of the things that attracts them there.

    So where do you come up with these obscure and questionable "facts"?...

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

    This question requires two answers.

    One – numbers. There are many sites reporting that every year more than a million Ukrainian citizens cross the border to Crimea. As a Ukie, you can get info from a Ukrainian site: partial stats for 2018 are here https://apostrophe.ua/news/society/2018-10-10/stalo-izvestno-skolko-ukraintsev-syezdili-na-otdyih-k-okkupantam-v-kryim/143053

    As to reasons why Ukrainians visit Crimea in droves, there are so many interviews and videos on the web that it’s impossible to give all links. You can scan search results here https://yandex.com/video/search?text=%D1%83%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B0%20%D0%BA%D1%80%D1%8B%D0%BC%20%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%B8%D1%87%D0%B8%D0%BD%D1%8B%20%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%B5%D0%B7%D0%B4%D0%BA%D0%B8&path=wizard&noreask=1
    Some Ukrainians are even fearlessly honest

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @AnonFromTN

    It's been my pleasure to have visited the Crimea, when it was "Ukie"and not a part of "Putlerstan" It was nice then and I'm sure that it's nice now. I suspect that as far as the hospitality business goes, it's being run by mostly the same people with not a whole lof of changes. It's also been my experience to speak with Ukrainians firsthand that have always given a thumbs up to the resorts in Romania and Bulgaria on the Black Sea over the ones in Crimea, not to mention Turkey too. Costs are competitive and amenities are on a much higher scale in these countries.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

  460. @AnonFromTN
    @Mr. Hack

    This question requires two answers.

    One – numbers. There are many sites reporting that every year more than a million Ukrainian citizens cross the border to Crimea. As a Ukie, you can get info from a Ukrainian site: partial stats for 2018 are here https://apostrophe.ua/news/society/2018-10-10/stalo-izvestno-skolko-ukraintsev-syezdili-na-otdyih-k-okkupantam-v-kryim/143053

    As to reasons why Ukrainians visit Crimea in droves, there are so many interviews and videos on the web that it’s impossible to give all links. You can scan search results here https://yandex.com/video/search?text=%D1%83%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B0%20%D0%BA%D1%80%D1%8B%D0%BC%20%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%B8%D1%87%D0%B8%D0%BD%D1%8B%20%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%B5%D0%B7%D0%B4%D0%BA%D0%B8&path=wizard&noreask=1
    Some Ukrainians are even fearlessly honest https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9F7MagYs_JQ

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    It’s been my pleasure to have visited the Crimea, when it was “Ukie”and not a part of “Putlerstan” It was nice then and I’m sure that it’s nice now. I suspect that as far as the hospitality business goes, it’s being run by mostly the same people with not a whole lof of changes. It’s also been my experience to speak with Ukrainians firsthand that have always given a thumbs up to the resorts in Romania and Bulgaria on the Black Sea over the ones in Crimea, not to mention Turkey too. Costs are competitive and amenities are on a much higher scale in these countries.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    @Mr. Hack

    Never been in Romania. I’ve been in Bulgaria some years back, in Crimea in 2015, and in Turkey in 2013. Turkey and Greece (where I was three times in the last 15 years) can compete with Crimea, Bulgaria is nowhere near. However, for the pale-skinned people (e.g., Slavs) the sun in Turkey and Greece is too fierce, whereas in Crimea, which is far to the North of them, they can be in the sun for hours w/o fearing sunburn.

    Good accommodations in Crimea aren’t cheap, but there are cheaper ones for those on a tight budget (or even pigsties and dog kennels that Crimeans used to rent to Ukrainians before 2014). Food is much cheaper in Crimea than in Turkey or Greece, especially Tatar food, which is available everywhere and quite delicious.

    Many roads were repaired and improved even in 2015, but side roads remained in their Ukrainian state back then. Likely got much better now.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  461. @Mr. Hack
    @AnonFromTN


    In my experience in many European countries traveling Ukrainians also prefer to call themselves Russians and speak only Russian publicly. I guess they are ashamed of their insane country. Many Ukrainians traveling to Crimea (there are more than a million every year, BTW) cite normalcy as one of the things that attracts them there.
     
    I think that you're mixing up your own disgusting janissaric views with the general feeling of most Ukrainians. People including Russians, however, are a fickle bunch. Most Russians now look more favorably on the new president of Ukraine, than they do on their own relic of the KGB past, 71% to 67% if you believe Levada. It appears that most Russians actually do look unfavoraably on the strong arm tactics that the Kremlin is applying to its opposition as of late.

    https://www.intellinews.com/zelenskiy-overtakes-putin-in-russian-popularity-polls-as-russians-become-increasingly-vocal-168133/?source=ukraine

    Replies: @AnonFromTN, @Anatoly Karlin

    “Fake news”.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Anatoly Karlin

    What do I know, I only printed what I read...(it did seem kind of strange, so I believe your rendition).

    , @AP
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Nice catch.

    I suspect Zelensky's popularity in Russia would be over 20% however.

    Replies: @Gerard1234

  462. @Thorfinnsson
    @Anatoly Karlin

    It's not an inconsequential issue.



    Alcohol is the single most used and abused drug in America. According to the National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism (NIAAA), nearly 14 million Americans (1 in every 13 adults) abuse alcohol or are alcoholics. Several million more adults engage in risky drinking patterns that could lead to alcohol problems. The costs to society in terms of lost productivity, health care costs, traffic accidents, and personal tragedies are staggering. Numerous studies and reports have been issued on the workplace costs of alcoholism and alcohol abuse, and they report costs that range from $33 billion to $68 billion per year. Alcohol is a major factor in injuries, both at home, at work, and on the road. Nearly half of all traffic fatalities involve alcohol. Please see the Appendix - The Disease of Alcoholism for a further discussion of alcoholism.

    In the workplace, the costs of alcoholism and alcohol abuse manifest themselves in many different ways. Absenteeism is estimated to be 4 to 8 times greater among alcoholics and alcohol abusers. Other family members of alcoholics also have greater rates of absenteeism. Accidents and on-the-job injuries are far more prevalent among alcoholics and alcohol abusers.
     
    https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/worklife/reference-materials/alcoholism-in-the-workplace-a-handbook-for-supervisors/

    I'll add a caveat that a lot of do-gooders tend to set the bar for alcoholism too low, but it's unlikely it's set so low that the quoted figures are off by an order of magnitude.

    And as noted previously, today alcoholism is frequently bound up with other forms of drug abuse which are often far more harmful.

    With the exception of DUI enforcement, the issue is also mostly ignored. Alcohol consumption has increased in this century, and formally taboo activities such as daytime drinking or even drinking while buying groceries have been normalized.

    That said, alcohol abuse in the West is substantially lower than it was a half-century ago during the heyday of the three martini lunch.

    Replies: @Anatoly Karlin

    We are talking past each other. You are taking an uncharacteristically (for you) moralistic perspective – understandable, considering your struggle 🙂 – I am looking at the big picture.

    $68B is a rounding error in the context of the US economy.

    In Finland, the country with the worst alcoholism problem in the West, only 2% of aggregate mortality accrued to alcohol in some way – and that was according to WHO figures more than a decade ago, it is surely even lower now.

    In the US, this figure is much lower than 1%. I.e., irrelevant.

    The opioid epidemic is not irrelevant – it is largely on account of that single factor that US LE improvements have stalled for the past decade, while they kept on improving throughout the rest of the West.

    As you correctly note, drinking was a bigger problem back in the days of American Greatness. And it was an even bigger problem for part of 19C.

    But even in the days of the “Alcoholic Republic” much less aggregate mortality accrued to alcohol abuse than in 1990s-mid 2000s Russia, when it was at 33%.

  463. @Mr. Hack
    @AnonFromTN

    It's been my pleasure to have visited the Crimea, when it was "Ukie"and not a part of "Putlerstan" It was nice then and I'm sure that it's nice now. I suspect that as far as the hospitality business goes, it's being run by mostly the same people with not a whole lof of changes. It's also been my experience to speak with Ukrainians firsthand that have always given a thumbs up to the resorts in Romania and Bulgaria on the Black Sea over the ones in Crimea, not to mention Turkey too. Costs are competitive and amenities are on a much higher scale in these countries.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

    Never been in Romania. I’ve been in Bulgaria some years back, in Crimea in 2015, and in Turkey in 2013. Turkey and Greece (where I was three times in the last 15 years) can compete with Crimea, Bulgaria is nowhere near. However, for the pale-skinned people (e.g., Slavs) the sun in Turkey and Greece is too fierce, whereas in Crimea, which is far to the North of them, they can be in the sun for hours w/o fearing sunburn.

    Good accommodations in Crimea aren’t cheap, but there are cheaper ones for those on a tight budget (or even pigsties and dog kennels that Crimeans used to rent to Ukrainians before 2014). Food is much cheaper in Crimea than in Turkey or Greece, especially Tatar food, which is available everywhere and quite delicious.

    Many roads were repaired and improved even in 2015, but side roads remained in their Ukrainian state back then. Likely got much better now.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @AnonFromTN

    I stayed in three areas within the Crimea, way back in 2000: Sudak, Gurzev and Kerch. Kerch was the least memorable and the cheapest (least expensive). Basically a bed within a small building about 200 feet from the sea. We were there for only about 2 days, so who's to complain at $5 per night? Sudak was cheap too, but I don't remember how much, and we only slept there for one night? Gurzev had the nicest accomodations at about $35 per night, in one of the former(?) youth hostels. A room with two small beds and a usable small shower room and toilet. It was a real bargain in that the price included 3 meals a day for two (!). We only made it for breakfast and dinner, choosing to have lunch somewhere off the beaten path. The meals were good, I remember eating fish and potatoes and vegetables. The dining room was large and accomodated upwards of 100 people. Nobody hassled me for speaking Ukrainain (as I'm afraid might be the case today), and everybody seemed to get along just fine. I'm sure the prices are mugh higher today - probably not a lot of renovation or change.

    The whole Russian language issue in the Crimea was a bunch of BS - the vast majority spoke Russian and no real pressure was ever put on anybody to switch to Ukrainian. I personally know a guy who studied at the only Ukrainian language high school within the Crimea. Banderites, walking the streets with guns loaded if they heard any Russian, right comrade? What a bunch of BS!

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

  464. @AnonFromTN
    @Mr. Hack

    Never been in Romania. I’ve been in Bulgaria some years back, in Crimea in 2015, and in Turkey in 2013. Turkey and Greece (where I was three times in the last 15 years) can compete with Crimea, Bulgaria is nowhere near. However, for the pale-skinned people (e.g., Slavs) the sun in Turkey and Greece is too fierce, whereas in Crimea, which is far to the North of them, they can be in the sun for hours w/o fearing sunburn.

    Good accommodations in Crimea aren’t cheap, but there are cheaper ones for those on a tight budget (or even pigsties and dog kennels that Crimeans used to rent to Ukrainians before 2014). Food is much cheaper in Crimea than in Turkey or Greece, especially Tatar food, which is available everywhere and quite delicious.

    Many roads were repaired and improved even in 2015, but side roads remained in their Ukrainian state back then. Likely got much better now.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    I stayed in three areas within the Crimea, way back in 2000: Sudak, Gurzev and Kerch. Kerch was the least memorable and the cheapest (least expensive). Basically a bed within a small building about 200 feet from the sea. We were there for only about 2 days, so who’s to complain at $5 per night? Sudak was cheap too, but I don’t remember how much, and we only slept there for one night? Gurzev had the nicest accomodations at about $35 per night, in one of the former(?) youth hostels. A room with two small beds and a usable small shower room and toilet. It was a real bargain in that the price included 3 meals a day for two (!). We only made it for breakfast and dinner, choosing to have lunch somewhere off the beaten path. The meals were good, I remember eating fish and potatoes and vegetables. The dining room was large and accomodated upwards of 100 people. Nobody hassled me for speaking Ukrainain (as I’m afraid might be the case today), and everybody seemed to get along just fine. I’m sure the prices are mugh higher today – probably not a lot of renovation or change.

    The whole Russian language issue in the Crimea was a bunch of BS – the vast majority spoke Russian and no real pressure was ever put on anybody to switch to Ukrainian. I personally know a guy who studied at the only Ukrainian language high school within the Crimea. Banderites, walking the streets with guns loaded if they heard any Russian, right comrade? What a bunch of BS!

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    @Mr. Hack

    I was in two places: Ordjonikidze near Feodosia and no name place (I don’t remember the name) 20 min drive from Yalta. Both right on the beach, both had two large rooms with two queen beds. We spent a week in each. Neither was cheap, but we weren’t looking for cheap. In fact, in 2015 more upscale places sold out faster (via Internet; we booked everything from the US). Stayed about a week in each. We did not want any food, as we travelled a lot on our rental car: visited Sevastopol, Bakhchisarai, royal palaces, Voloshin cave, Ayu-Dag, Aivasovsky museum in Feodosia, Yalta and Chekhov museum there, etc. Food choice was good everywhere, at all prices. I liked borsch and Tatar food best. Tatars were doing brisk business in food and transportation (a ride up Ayu-Dag), as well as in selling clay things (some simple, some high art). Interestingly, I gave both landlords and rental car company choice of dollars or rubles, and they all wanted rubles only (somewhat inconvenient for me, but we managed to exchange, even got some from ATM in Moscow). Car rental service was good: they brought our car (I wanted automatic transmission) to Simferopol airport (greatly expanded by that time, flights were landing every 10-15 min) by the time of our arrival, and picked it up again at the airport when we departed. The sea was unusually warm (+24oC most of the time), the weather was perfect, not too hot. I have great memories of that trip, much better than of Crimea I visited as a kid in Soviet times. Main roads were good, side roads bad – pretty much like the road from Donetsk airport to Lugansk I used to ride when I visited my mother before the war: there were flights to Donetsk from Munich and Istanbul, but no international flights to Lugansk. You had to drive our rental low-sitting Mercedes carefully on side roads. Once road police stopped me for driving w/o headlights (in Russia you must have your headlights on even during the day). They told me what I did wrong but did not even hint at a bribe. Huge contrast with Ukrainian road police on the Donetsk-Lugansk road, who were only looking for bribes and told you so in no uncertain terms. I plan to drive in over Crimean bridge after they finish expanding Kerch-Simferopol highway, maybe next year, maybe 2021. Will have a chance to stop at Kerch: I’ve never been there. There are lots of archaeological digs around it.

    Of course, Crimeans always spoke Russian: Crimea never was Ukraine, and never will be. Plaques on all official buildings and all documents were in Ukrainian, though, so people had to translate. You can speak Ukrainian now, but few would be happy to hear it. I tried speaking Ukrainian once, and people simply recoiled. I blame current Ukrainian government and Ukies in general for associating this beautiful and perfectly innocent language with their idiocy. The whole USSR used to sing Ukrainian songs. Not any more. On the Internet (where you can watch TV or listen to the radio now), whenever you hear Ukrainian, the speakers invariably spew awful BS typical of “svidomy” morons. To the best of my knowledge, Montyan is the only person saying something sensible in Ukrainian now.

    Current government switched all schooling to Ukrainian and tries to impose quotas on TV, radio, and the rest of the media. I guess that’s understandable: when you can’t achieve anything meaningful, you have to pretend that you are doing something.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  465. @Anatoly Karlin
    @Mr. Hack

    "Fake news".

    https://twitter.com/akarlin88/status/1174750628385558529

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @AP

    What do I know, I only printed what I read…(it did seem kind of strange, so I believe your rendition).

  466. @Mr. Hack
    @AnonFromTN

    I stayed in three areas within the Crimea, way back in 2000: Sudak, Gurzev and Kerch. Kerch was the least memorable and the cheapest (least expensive). Basically a bed within a small building about 200 feet from the sea. We were there for only about 2 days, so who's to complain at $5 per night? Sudak was cheap too, but I don't remember how much, and we only slept there for one night? Gurzev had the nicest accomodations at about $35 per night, in one of the former(?) youth hostels. A room with two small beds and a usable small shower room and toilet. It was a real bargain in that the price included 3 meals a day for two (!). We only made it for breakfast and dinner, choosing to have lunch somewhere off the beaten path. The meals were good, I remember eating fish and potatoes and vegetables. The dining room was large and accomodated upwards of 100 people. Nobody hassled me for speaking Ukrainain (as I'm afraid might be the case today), and everybody seemed to get along just fine. I'm sure the prices are mugh higher today - probably not a lot of renovation or change.

    The whole Russian language issue in the Crimea was a bunch of BS - the vast majority spoke Russian and no real pressure was ever put on anybody to switch to Ukrainian. I personally know a guy who studied at the only Ukrainian language high school within the Crimea. Banderites, walking the streets with guns loaded if they heard any Russian, right comrade? What a bunch of BS!

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

    I was in two places: Ordjonikidze near Feodosia and no name place (I don’t remember the name) 20 min drive from Yalta. Both right on the beach, both had two large rooms with two queen beds. We spent a week in each. Neither was cheap, but we weren’t looking for cheap. In fact, in 2015 more upscale places sold out faster (via Internet; we booked everything from the US). Stayed about a week in each. We did not want any food, as we travelled a lot on our rental car: visited Sevastopol, Bakhchisarai, royal palaces, Voloshin cave, Ayu-Dag, Aivasovsky museum in Feodosia, Yalta and Chekhov museum there, etc. Food choice was good everywhere, at all prices. I liked borsch and Tatar food best. Tatars were doing brisk business in food and transportation (a ride up Ayu-Dag), as well as in selling clay things (some simple, some high art). Interestingly, I gave both landlords and rental car company choice of dollars or rubles, and they all wanted rubles only (somewhat inconvenient for me, but we managed to exchange, even got some from ATM in Moscow). Car rental service was good: they brought our car (I wanted automatic transmission) to Simferopol airport (greatly expanded by that time, flights were landing every 10-15 min) by the time of our arrival, and picked it up again at the airport when we departed. The sea was unusually warm (+24oC most of the time), the weather was perfect, not too hot. I have great memories of that trip, much better than of Crimea I visited as a kid in Soviet times. Main roads were good, side roads bad – pretty much like the road from Donetsk airport to Lugansk I used to ride when I visited my mother before the war: there were flights to Donetsk from Munich and Istanbul, but no international flights to Lugansk. You had to drive our rental low-sitting Mercedes carefully on side roads. Once road police stopped me for driving w/o headlights (in Russia you must have your headlights on even during the day). They told me what I did wrong but did not even hint at a bribe. Huge contrast with Ukrainian road police on the Donetsk-Lugansk road, who were only looking for bribes and told you so in no uncertain terms. I plan to drive in over Crimean bridge after they finish expanding Kerch-Simferopol highway, maybe next year, maybe 2021. Will have a chance to stop at Kerch: I’ve never been there. There are lots of archaeological digs around it.

    Of course, Crimeans always spoke Russian: Crimea never was Ukraine, and never will be. Plaques on all official buildings and all documents were in Ukrainian, though, so people had to translate. You can speak Ukrainian now, but few would be happy to hear it. I tried speaking Ukrainian once, and people simply recoiled. I blame current Ukrainian government and Ukies in general for associating this beautiful and perfectly innocent language with their idiocy. The whole USSR used to sing Ukrainian songs. Not any more. On the Internet (where you can watch TV or listen to the radio now), whenever you hear Ukrainian, the speakers invariably spew awful BS typical of “svidomy” morons. To the best of my knowledge, Montyan is the only person saying something sensible in Ukrainian now.

    Current government switched all schooling to Ukrainian and tries to impose quotas on TV, radio, and the rest of the media. I guess that’s understandable: when you can’t achieve anything meaningful, you have to pretend that you are doing something.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @AnonFromTN

    Everything you speak betrays the soul of a janissar - your master's language, culture, history, economy is better than your own. The soviets did a wonderful job in russifying Ukraine, and you're a prime example of the soviet man that they were trying to create, who thought and dreamt in Russian. Too bad for you that it didn't work, and you now have to live in the country of your former adversary - why not move and live in splendid Russia? Sure you might make a few less bucks, but then agiaa you wouldn't feel so much like a Gastarbeiter. eh? :-) Take AK as an example!

    Replies: @AnonFromTN, @anonymous coward

  467. @AnonFromTN
    @Mr. Hack

    I was in two places: Ordjonikidze near Feodosia and no name place (I don’t remember the name) 20 min drive from Yalta. Both right on the beach, both had two large rooms with two queen beds. We spent a week in each. Neither was cheap, but we weren’t looking for cheap. In fact, in 2015 more upscale places sold out faster (via Internet; we booked everything from the US). Stayed about a week in each. We did not want any food, as we travelled a lot on our rental car: visited Sevastopol, Bakhchisarai, royal palaces, Voloshin cave, Ayu-Dag, Aivasovsky museum in Feodosia, Yalta and Chekhov museum there, etc. Food choice was good everywhere, at all prices. I liked borsch and Tatar food best. Tatars were doing brisk business in food and transportation (a ride up Ayu-Dag), as well as in selling clay things (some simple, some high art). Interestingly, I gave both landlords and rental car company choice of dollars or rubles, and they all wanted rubles only (somewhat inconvenient for me, but we managed to exchange, even got some from ATM in Moscow). Car rental service was good: they brought our car (I wanted automatic transmission) to Simferopol airport (greatly expanded by that time, flights were landing every 10-15 min) by the time of our arrival, and picked it up again at the airport when we departed. The sea was unusually warm (+24oC most of the time), the weather was perfect, not too hot. I have great memories of that trip, much better than of Crimea I visited as a kid in Soviet times. Main roads were good, side roads bad – pretty much like the road from Donetsk airport to Lugansk I used to ride when I visited my mother before the war: there were flights to Donetsk from Munich and Istanbul, but no international flights to Lugansk. You had to drive our rental low-sitting Mercedes carefully on side roads. Once road police stopped me for driving w/o headlights (in Russia you must have your headlights on even during the day). They told me what I did wrong but did not even hint at a bribe. Huge contrast with Ukrainian road police on the Donetsk-Lugansk road, who were only looking for bribes and told you so in no uncertain terms. I plan to drive in over Crimean bridge after they finish expanding Kerch-Simferopol highway, maybe next year, maybe 2021. Will have a chance to stop at Kerch: I’ve never been there. There are lots of archaeological digs around it.

    Of course, Crimeans always spoke Russian: Crimea never was Ukraine, and never will be. Plaques on all official buildings and all documents were in Ukrainian, though, so people had to translate. You can speak Ukrainian now, but few would be happy to hear it. I tried speaking Ukrainian once, and people simply recoiled. I blame current Ukrainian government and Ukies in general for associating this beautiful and perfectly innocent language with their idiocy. The whole USSR used to sing Ukrainian songs. Not any more. On the Internet (where you can watch TV or listen to the radio now), whenever you hear Ukrainian, the speakers invariably spew awful BS typical of “svidomy” morons. To the best of my knowledge, Montyan is the only person saying something sensible in Ukrainian now.

    Current government switched all schooling to Ukrainian and tries to impose quotas on TV, radio, and the rest of the media. I guess that’s understandable: when you can’t achieve anything meaningful, you have to pretend that you are doing something.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    Everything you speak betrays the soul of a janissar – your master’s language, culture, history, economy is better than your own. The soviets did a wonderful job in russifying Ukraine, and you’re a prime example of the soviet man that they were trying to create, who thought and dreamt in Russian. Too bad for you that it didn’t work, and you now have to live in the country of your former adversary – why not move and live in splendid Russia? Sure you might make a few less bucks, but then agiaa you wouldn’t feel so much like a Gastarbeiter. eh? 🙂 Take AK as an example!

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    @Mr. Hack

    Typical view of someone who never lived in Ukraine. This might be true in your mythological Ukraine, but is completely false here on Earth.

    I live where I can do what I do best – scientific research. It is non-military and the results are always published, available to humans everywhere.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    , @anonymous coward
    @Mr. Hack


    The soviets did a wonderful job in russifying Ukraine
     
    The Soviets did the opposite, you dumb fuck. They had to ukrainify huge chunks of the country, because most of it was Russian land populated by Russians after the Turks were chased out.

    "Ukraine" proper is actually two different and unrelated tiny parts of the country.

    You come from Galicia, you have no relation to 90% of the country or people in Ukraine, so shut up and become Polish already.

    https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A3%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B7%D0%B0%D1%86%D0%B8%D1%8F

    Replies: @AP

  468. @Mr. Hack
    @AnonFromTN

    Everything you speak betrays the soul of a janissar - your master's language, culture, history, economy is better than your own. The soviets did a wonderful job in russifying Ukraine, and you're a prime example of the soviet man that they were trying to create, who thought and dreamt in Russian. Too bad for you that it didn't work, and you now have to live in the country of your former adversary - why not move and live in splendid Russia? Sure you might make a few less bucks, but then agiaa you wouldn't feel so much like a Gastarbeiter. eh? :-) Take AK as an example!

    Replies: @AnonFromTN, @anonymous coward

    Typical view of someone who never lived in Ukraine. This might be true in your mythological Ukraine, but is completely false here on Earth.

    I live where I can do what I do best – scientific research. It is non-military and the results are always published, available to humans everywhere.

    • LOL: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @AnonFromTN

    Typical view of someone who never lived in Ukraine?


    why not move and live in splendid Russia? Sure you might make a few less bucks, but then again you wouldn’t feel so much like a Gastarbeiter. eh? 🙂 Take AK as an example!

     

    Are you stating that one can't work and live in Russia and be involved with non-military scientific research? An interesting proposition. According to your remarks earlier, it can't be the food that's keeping you there in Tennessee, nor the music. :-)

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

  469. @Anatoly Karlin
    @Mr. Hack

    "Fake news".

    https://twitter.com/akarlin88/status/1174750628385558529

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @AP

    Nice catch.

    I suspect Zelensky’s popularity in Russia would be over 20% however.

    • Replies: @Gerard1234
    @AP


    I suspect Zelensky’s popularity in Russia would be over 20% however.

     

    LOL......it's pretty obvious that he would have popularity in Russia,.....the country that made him famous, the country where ( laughably) he would have to travel to in order to be able to see all his films because some of his films are actually banned in Ukraine( and regularly on Rossiya/Perviy Kanal), the country that gave him his biggest audiences and exposure, the country whose language he used in his comedic work and in his political comedy that basically got him elected by the Ukrainian population...and where most of his financing- directly or indirectly inevitably comes from

    As for political popularity - that would be closer to 0% than to 10% you idiot. Nobody in Russia wants part of the failed Ukrainian freakshow you dumb prick
  470. @Thorfinnsson
    @Mr. Hack

    No, the core Americans are British and Dutch whites who arrived prior to 1776. Other whites who have arrived since that time have assimilated in varying degrees.

    I don't include blacks into an all-encompassing American nationality because that isn't their identity. Black identity in America is defined by the shared experience of slavery, Jim Crowe, the civil rights struggle, etc. They are at best ambivalent about the things that define white Americans, and are more typically hostile.

    Most Americans have been intensively propagandized and brainwashed for decades to deny the reality of race and ethnicity. In short, they're wrong, and their ancestors would've recognized that.

    Who said anything about test? We're talking about nationality rather than citizenship.

    I don't have a position on whether or not South Slavs are real slavs, though from now on it will be part of the large litany of insults I deploy against Balkanoid swine.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Dmitry

    “Core Americans” – are native nationalities like Sioux or Cherokee, who have some thousands of years of connection to the country.

    The rest of population of America, are descendants of a random mix of peasants from European countries, or even Africa – who arrived in the country by almost accidental impulse of one of their ancestors, and have only recent, if any, real connection to its land.

    And that is precisely stimulus for why America is so innovative – a country of alienated immigrants, who are constantly revolutionizing their way of life, partly as an attempt to recompense the terror of living on the wrong side of the Atlantic Ocean from their heritage.

    In my opinion. apotheosis of the “American project”, are probably the Mormons of Utah, and Mitt Romney in particular.

    In Utah, there is a completely artificial and bizarre nationality, based on believing Jesus had emigrated to America 2000 years ago (https://www.comeuntochrist.org/blog/what-jesus-christs-visit-to-the-americas-means-to-us ).

    And yet somehow Mormons of Utah have created a more successful life on idiotic, artificial soil, than people living in normal Europe. This is an impressive example of “will to power” in America.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    @Dmitry

    America is a European word. Indians weren't US citizens (or, prior to this, British subjects) or even taxed until 1925. They're certainly not core Americans, and in fact the American nation was forged in part because of three centuries of conflict with the Indians.

    Calling Indians core Americans is like calling Scythians core Russians.

    The Mormons however are indeed a very American story.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    , @Gerard1234
    @Dmitry


    And that is precisely stimulus for why America is so innovative – a country of alienated immigrants, who are constantly revolutionizing their way of life, partly as an attempt to recompense the terror of living on the wrong side of the Atlantic Ocean from their heritage.

    But are Americans more innovative than Australians or white south Africans during apartheid or the British during the peak of the Empire?...are they actually more innovative than the Israeli's? Or the Japanese ? Or the Germans?

    Essentially there are the same positive characteristics between all the Anglo-settled Empire parts of the world - Canada/US, South Africa/Rhodesia (for the white population until the 1980's), Australia/New Zealand.....all countries with plenty of open space and chance for prosperity and all having the same arrogant/bombastic big country vs humble/reserved dynamic ( huge generalisation, I know) between the sets of neighboring countries.

    America would still be a hugely wealthy country without the flood of immigrants from Europe from the last quarter of the 19th century until the end of WW2. It and the world would be significantly different, but it would still be wealthy.

    Other things to look at would be the less than conservative amount of credit that is available and handed out gratuitously there(whoever the government is)........the much higher interest rate on that credit/loan compared to most other western countries(motivations vs "complacent" Euro's?).

    Now don't get me wrong.....gun rights and the mass production and mass ownership of cars are two huge drivers of freedom , and they are a big part of US identity - but I don't think that or any of the other things linked to "freedom" are as strongly related to business success as they try and tell the rest of the world

    , @Kent Nationalist
    @Dmitry


    “Core Americans” – are native nationalities like Sioux or Cherokee, who have some thousands of years of connection to the country.

     

    Core Americans are the descendants of the Australian Aborigines the Amerindians genocided.
  471. @Brutis
    @AP

    Fk no.

    https://youtu.be/OX-o1VUxOY0
    https://youtu.be/EwlJ6hgmAIY

    BTW, our Sixth Guru Sahib had a shield of Seal Skin from the Rus. Ty, 🙏

    I came to this blog supporting Russia, as they have our allies and are blood relatives.

    As time goes, while I have sympathy for S Russia & our people around the Urals I have great sympathy for the Ukraine.

    Their struggle is similar to our's.

    I do feel the Russian nuclear deterrent is the only reason America has not been able to unleash the negro battalions more broadly but I will let the God's decide this battle and fight where my passions take me.

    This is allowed in Sikhi,

    https://web.archive.org/web/20170404132933/http://www.manglacharan.com/manglacharan/2016/1/11/the-merit-of-being-of-warrior-from-dasam-and-sarbloh-granth

    ਪਰੀਯੈਨਹੀਆਨਕੇਪਾਇਨਪੈਹਰਿਕੇਗੁਰਕੇਦਿਜਕੇਪਰੀਯੈ॥ਜਿਹਕੋਜੁਗਚਾਰਮੈਨਾਉਜਪੈਤਿਹਸੋਲਰੀਯੈਮਰੀਯੈਤਰੀਯੈ॥੧੬੮੮॥
    Seek not anyone's feet but those of Hari, the Guru, and Brahmins. He whose name is recited through the ੪ ages, against Him by fighting and dying one is carried across.
    — Krishnavatar, verse ੧੬੮੮

    We ask only that you refrain from slaughter of the Dairy Cow as did your ancestors.

    Once you are done your brothers' wars feel free to join us in Wiping the Turk off the Face of the Earth।।

    Such is the wish of the Tenth Master.

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾ।।ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ।।

    https://i.imgur.com/Mf6JCHg.jpg

    Replies: @AP

    OK, my first instinct was right.

    By Turks do you mean (also ) Mughals?

    • Replies: @Brutis
    @AP

    Turk means Muslim.

    Imagine following Gandhi when the religion of Steel was born in your country


    https://www.instagram.com/p/B2ntYvdlia4/?igshid=6pag113d9vwx

    Replies: @AP

  472. @German_reader
    @anonymous coward


    Monogamy is a desired norm in every human society.
     
    It's clearly not desired by the big men in such societies who have multiple wives/concubines and sometimes dozens of children.
    If the goal of life is reproductive success, monogamy is in some sense an unnatural restriction on the desire of men to impregnate as many women as possible and be more successful in passing on their genes than competitors.
    There are many good reasons to reject polygamy, but I don't think it can be called "unnatural".

    Replies: @Dmitry

    Your view is sounding a little like Schopenhauer – in one of his less intelligent writing.

    “In London alone there are 80,000 prostitutes. Then what are these women who have come too quickly to this most terrible end but human sacrifices on the altar of monogamy? The women here referred to and who are placed in this wretched position are the inevitable counterbalance to the European lady, with her pretensions and arrogance. Hence polygamy is a real benefit to the female sex, taking it as a whole. And, on the other hand, there is no reason why a man whose wife suffers from chronic illness, or remains barren, or has gradually become too old for him, should not take a second. Many people become converts to Mormonism for the precise reasons that they condemn the unnatural institution of monogamy.”

    But Schopenhauer’s view depends on historical conditions. For most of history, as a result of far greater violent and accidental deaths reducing the number of men – women have been more numerous than men even in the younger age groups. But in developed countries of the 21st century, this is not the situation.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Dmitry


    For most of history, as a result of far greater violent and accidental deaths reducing the number of men – women have been more numerous than men even in the younger age groups.
     
    Large numbers of women died in childbirth before modern medicine, so I'm not convinced at all this is true.
    imo you're wrong about "core Americans", despite some silly pc mythology Amerindians had no role in creating the polity known as the US, which was the creation of British Protestants.
    I'm in full agreement with Thorfinnsson about the nature of ideological nations and their likely endpoint. The same process is also clearly discernible in the federal republic of Germany with its Verfassungspatriotismus (constitutional patriotism, based on an absurd worship of Germany's quasi-sacred Basic Law) and ever more hysterical "antifascist" state ideology whose implicit end goal is the dissolution of all ethnic and cultural sense of nationhood.

    Replies: @Dmitry

  473. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie
    @Rosie

    TF, it occurs to me that men might underestimate the revulsion women feel at the prospect of selling our bodies. If I am not mistaken, only like 5% of women have ever done it. We would rather: scrub toilets, wait tables, wipe old people's behinds after they go to the bathroom, etc. Generally, only the utmost desperation will induce a woman to do this, generally drug addiction or siblings facing hunger or needing medical care they couldn't otherwise afford.

    So yes, the assumption that duress was involved is actually very much warranted.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @Dmitry, @Anonymous

    Women “selling their bodies” can encompass a wide spectrum of behavior and conditions though.

    At one end, it can involve dangerous “streetwalking” and operating in dirty brothels for very low pay and dealing with dangerous, unsanitary, disgusting conditions and customers. The vast majority of women will certainly recoil from this and only the most desperate women will pursue it.

    At the other end, you have high-end “modeling” and “escorting” where the women sell sex or have extended relationships with wealthier men for very high pay and in luxury accommodations such as luxury hotels and the residences of wealthy men. Certainly more women find this more tolerable than the aforementioned “streetwalking”, although it’s also the case that this option is open to fewer women.

    Also at the other end is not the formal transactional selling of sex, but women seeking relationships with men who are well off or at least economically secure.

  474. @AnonFromTN
    @Mr. Hack

    Typical view of someone who never lived in Ukraine. This might be true in your mythological Ukraine, but is completely false here on Earth.

    I live where I can do what I do best – scientific research. It is non-military and the results are always published, available to humans everywhere.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    Typical view of someone who never lived in Ukraine?

    why not move and live in splendid Russia? Sure you might make a few less bucks, but then again you wouldn’t feel so much like a Gastarbeiter. eh? 🙂 Take AK as an example!

    Are you stating that one can’t work and live in Russia and be involved with non-military scientific research? An interesting proposition. According to your remarks earlier, it can’t be the food that’s keeping you there in Tennessee, nor the music. 🙂

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    @Mr. Hack

    Maybe the difference isn’t clear for the uninitiated. “Being involved” in scientific research and actually doing it at the level that produces meaningful results are two different things. It’s roughly like between “being involved” in movie industry (say, as a cleaner) and starring in a movie. Say, if you are a skilled Formula 1 driver, would you settle for driving a donkey?

    At the moment Russian biomedical research is nowhere near the level of top places. There are many high-class labs in the US, a few in Europe, China, Japan, Singapore, Taiwan, etc. The US used to produce ~80% of high quality world research in the 1990-s. Now its share is down to 35-40%, but it is still large. Besides, like in every place full of bottom-feeders, there would be lots of envy and ill will in the Russian Academy of Sciences: I have more good papers and citations than most Academy members in these areas. In biomedical research Russia as a country is somewhere in the 30-s in the world (before you ask, Ukraine is in the 80-s or 90-s).

    It might be hard to comprehend for people who don’t give a hoot about their job, but for me the quality of my work is paramount. Both geography and pay are secondary considerations. I get out of TN (and the US) for vacations, and I don’t have time to spend what they pay me, anyway. If the Congress keeps doing its level best to kill American science, I’ll have to move somewhere like China or Singapore. If Russian government comes up with a viable program of developing basic biomedical science, I’d consider Russia, too.

    BTW, the plan in the new Ukrainian budget is to starve science even further. About 244 billion hryvnas are allocated for the army and police, and about 2 billion (less than 1% of that) for science.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  475. @AP
    @Korenchkin


    You sabotage your argument by trying to make meme comparisons with different races from entirely different continents
    Theres far less genetic difference between Poles and Croats or Russians and Bulgarians then with any European group and Latin Americans or Sub Saharan Africans
     
    I was using the analogy to point out not extent of differences but extent of descent.

    Of course differences are much smaller between different European peoples. I am not claiming that Balkanoids are as different from Slavs as American black are from Europeans, or Guatemalan Mestizos are from Spaniards. However their Slavic descent is as small as is American blacks' European descent.

    So a Balkanoid may be more like a Russian than is a half-Russian, half-African. But the half-Russian-half African will have more Slavic descent than will the Balkanoid.

    So this half-Russian, half-African soccer player is more of a Slav by blood than is any hardcore Serb nationalist:

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c5/27_Stanislav_Lebamba.jpg/220px-27_Stanislav_Lebamba.jpg

    Or, an Italian will be more like a Spaniard than is a Guatemalan Mestizo. But the Guatemalan Mestizo will still have more Spanish descent than does the Italian. (I used Guatemalans because they are about 25% European; Mexican Mestizos are 40%+ European, which is more European than Balkanoids are Slavic).

    Replies: @Korenchkin, @Epigon, @Dmitry

    Nationalities like Serbs and Bosnians are probably descendants of the Ancient Illyrians.

    However, racially/genetically what do you mean by pure Slavs. Poles?

    Genetically, Poles are unrelated to the Balkans races, but also not very related to a lot of Russia from around East from Nizhny Novgorod or North from Rybinsk.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Dmitry

    In the genetic map of Romanians, there is probably indication of the Ancient Illyrians, from the location in Eastern Italy (area of Illyrian settlement in Italy).


    https://i.imgur.com/kyClqEK.png

    Modern Balkans nationalities have a close genetic relation - if we believe the maps - to areas where Ancient Illyrians had lived, as modern Romanians and Eastern Italians.

    https://i.imgur.com/y3Rd2sA.png

    Replies: @AP, @AP

    , @Mikhail
    @Dmitry


    Nationalities like Serbs and Bosnians are probably descendants of the Ancient Illyrians.
     
    Piss off a lot of Albanians who dubiously make that claim of themselves. Serbs are Slavs with Slavs being of different blends and percentages of such.

    By "Bosnians", you probably mean the PC term "Bosniak" describing Slavic Muslims. Bosnians being primarily those of Croat, Muslim Slav and Serb backgrounds in Bosnia.

    Replies: @AP, @Dmitry

  476. @Dmitry
    @AP

    Nationalities like Serbs and Bosnians are probably descendants of the Ancient Illyrians.

    However, racially/genetically what do you mean by pure Slavs. Poles?

    Genetically, Poles are unrelated to the Balkans races, but also not very related to a lot of Russia from around East from Nizhny Novgorod or North from Rybinsk.
    https://i.imgur.com/5eIO80u.png

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Mikhail

    In the genetic map of Romanians, there is probably indication of the Ancient Illyrians, from the location in Eastern Italy (area of Illyrian settlement in Italy).


    Modern Balkans nationalities have a close genetic relation – if we believe the maps – to areas where Ancient Illyrians had lived, as modern Romanians and Eastern Italians.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Dmitry

    Northern Russians:

    https://site.ua/uploads/post_body_images/3405/59df18e0eed44.jpg

    Southern and Central Russians:

    https://site.ua/uploads/post_body_images/3405/59df1907b6d48.jpg

    Ukrainians:

    https://akarlin.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/map-genetics-ukrainians.jpg

    Looks like there may be some truth to the idea of Croats coming from western Ukraine, where the White Croat tribe lived. Also Slovaks are very close to Ukrainians.

    Something is weird about those maps (I don't know their source). Why would Russians from Perm or Samara be completely different from Russians from Saratov. Do these map only consider the indigenous pre-Slavic population of those territories east of the core Slavic areas? That's the only way those maps make sense.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    , @AP
    @Dmitry

    Albanians:

    http://www.oranews.tv/storage/app/media/home/ora/public_html/storage/app/media/2018/12/05/3mijeleke-studente.jpg

    https://www.worldbulletin.net/images/resize/100/656x400/haberler/2018/12/thousands-of-albanian-students-protests-in-front-of-education-ministry_51041.jpg

    Serbs:

    https://www.arbitrationassociation.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/BGMoottim2016.jpg

    https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-KZR53t1qbSc/VDJ0kw4j7WI/AAAAAAAArx0/GfYHYOh7dcg/s912/SvecaniPrijemBrucosaPFB-062.JPG

    They look similar, Serbs are lighter.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @melanf, @Thulean Friend

  477. German_reader says:
    @Dmitry
    @German_reader

    Your view is sounding a little like Schopenhauer - in one of his less intelligent writing.


    "In London alone there are 80,000 prostitutes. Then what are these women who have come too quickly to this most terrible end but human sacrifices on the altar of monogamy? The women here referred to and who are placed in this wretched position are the inevitable counterbalance to the European lady, with her pretensions and arrogance. Hence polygamy is a real benefit to the female sex, taking it as a whole. And, on the other hand, there is no reason why a man whose wife suffers from chronic illness, or remains barren, or has gradually become too old for him, should not take a second. Many people become converts to Mormonism for the precise reasons that they condemn the unnatural institution of monogamy."
     
    But Schopenhauer's view depends on historical conditions. For most of history, as a result of far greater violent and accidental deaths reducing the number of men - women have been more numerous than men even in the younger age groups. But in developed countries of the 21st century, this is not the situation.

    Replies: @German_reader

    For most of history, as a result of far greater violent and accidental deaths reducing the number of men – women have been more numerous than men even in the younger age groups.

    Large numbers of women died in childbirth before modern medicine, so I’m not convinced at all this is true.
    imo you’re wrong about “core Americans”, despite some silly pc mythology Amerindians had no role in creating the polity known as the US, which was the creation of British Protestants.
    I’m in full agreement with Thorfinnsson about the nature of ideological nations and their likely endpoint. The same process is also clearly discernible in the federal republic of Germany with its Verfassungspatriotismus (constitutional patriotism, based on an absurd worship of Germany’s quasi-sacred Basic Law) and ever more hysterical “antifascist” state ideology whose implicit end goal is the dissolution of all ethnic and cultural sense of nationhood.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @German_reader


    women died in childbirth

     

    Women dying in childbirth does not reduce number of women in first marriage group. (Except those who become pregnant illegitimately).

    It can free ex-husbands to remarry I guess, but the dynamic of women outnumbering first marrying men in first marriage would be very common in most of history.


    creating the polity known as the US
     
    But this is abstract political philosophy, which might be relevant to political science or legal theory, but not to rootedness in the land.

    The land itself is a foreign and alien one to the immigrants - and you feel this quite strongly when you visit particularly subtropical parts like Southern California (it's a very foreign and alien climate - as well as wildlife and fauna - for Northern European races who arrived their quite randomly, although at least their own impulsion unlike African immigrants)

    Replies: @German_reader

  478. @German_reader
    @Dmitry


    For most of history, as a result of far greater violent and accidental deaths reducing the number of men – women have been more numerous than men even in the younger age groups.
     
    Large numbers of women died in childbirth before modern medicine, so I'm not convinced at all this is true.
    imo you're wrong about "core Americans", despite some silly pc mythology Amerindians had no role in creating the polity known as the US, which was the creation of British Protestants.
    I'm in full agreement with Thorfinnsson about the nature of ideological nations and their likely endpoint. The same process is also clearly discernible in the federal republic of Germany with its Verfassungspatriotismus (constitutional patriotism, based on an absurd worship of Germany's quasi-sacred Basic Law) and ever more hysterical "antifascist" state ideology whose implicit end goal is the dissolution of all ethnic and cultural sense of nationhood.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    women died in childbirth

    Women dying in childbirth does not reduce number of women in first marriage group. (Except those who become pregnant illegitimately).

    It can free ex-husbands to remarry I guess, but the dynamic of women outnumbering first marrying men in first marriage would be very common in most of history.

    creating the polity known as the US

    But this is abstract political philosophy, which might be relevant to political science or legal theory, but not to rootedness in the land.

    The land itself is a foreign and alien one to the immigrants – and you feel this quite strongly when you visit particularly subtropical parts like Southern California (it’s a very foreign and alien climate – as well as wildlife and fauna – for Northern European races who arrived their quite randomly, although at least their own impulsion unlike African immigrants)

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Dmitry


    and you feel this quite strongly when you visit particularly subtropical parts like Southern California
     
    Maybe, but it probably feels rather different in a state like West Virginia where many people may well have family roots in the region going back to the 18th or even 17th century.

    Replies: @Dmitry

  479. @Dmitry
    @Thorfinnsson

    "Core Americans" - are native nationalities like Sioux or Cherokee, who have some thousands of years of connection to the country.

    The rest of population of America, are descendants of a random mix of peasants from European countries, or even Africa - who arrived in the country by almost accidental impulse of one of their ancestors, and have only recent, if any, real connection to its land.

    And that is precisely stimulus for why America is so innovative - a country of alienated immigrants, who are constantly revolutionizing their way of life, partly as an attempt to recompense the terror of living on the wrong side of the Atlantic Ocean from their heritage.

    -

    In my opinion. apotheosis of the "American project", are probably the Mormons of Utah, and Mitt Romney in particular.

    In Utah, there is a completely artificial and bizarre nationality, based on believing Jesus had emigrated to America 2000 years ago (https://www.comeuntochrist.org/blog/what-jesus-christs-visit-to-the-americas-means-to-us ).

    And yet somehow Mormons of Utah have created a more successful life on idiotic, artificial soil, than people living in normal Europe. This is an impressive example of "will to power" in America.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @Gerard1234, @Kent Nationalist

    America is a European word. Indians weren’t US citizens (or, prior to this, British subjects) or even taxed until 1925. They’re certainly not core Americans, and in fact the American nation was forged in part because of three centuries of conflict with the Indians.

    Calling Indians core Americans is like calling Scythians core Russians.

    The Mormons however are indeed a very American story.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Thorfinnsson

    Core Americans in terms of their relation to the land, are the primitive people who had ancestors in the same place for thousands of years, and can talk to the coyotes, and know the secrets of the cactus, and which were portrayed (i.e. the non-English brown ones) in the film "Last of the Mohicans".

    This is the people who have the most blood connection to the land, of course. Just as Celts have most ancestry connection to Ireland.

    On the other hand, "core American" in terms of relation to the abstract political system that was created in America and resulted in USA - they are surely, the English landowners, who have knowledge of John Locke, and desire for taxation only with representation, etc.

    Locke introduces a theory of property, where something can becomes your property if you add your labour to it.
    https://www.constitution.org/jl/2ndtr05.htm

    So then property, becomes accessible to anyone who can contribute mix their labour to the land (even if they are immigrants with no history of ancestors on the land).

    Locke writes very poetically...


    Thus this law of reason makes the deer that Indian's who hath killed it; it is allowed to be his goods, who hath bestowed his labour upon it, though before it was the common right of every one. And amongst those who are counted the civilized part of mankind, who have made and multiplied positive laws to determine property, this original law of nature, for the beginning of property, in what was before common, still takes place; and by virtue thereof, what fish any one catches in the ocean, that great and still remaining common of mankind; or what ambergrise any one takes up here, is by the labour that removes it out of that common state nature left it in, made his property, who takes that pains about it. And even amongst us, the hare that any one is hunting, is thought his who pursues her during the chase: for being a beast that is still looked upon as common, and no man's private possession; whoever has employed so much labour about any of that kind, as to find and pursue her, has thereby removed her from the state of nature, wherein she was common, and hath begun a property.
     

    Replies: @LondonBob

  480. @Thorfinnsson
    @Dmitry

    America is a European word. Indians weren't US citizens (or, prior to this, British subjects) or even taxed until 1925. They're certainly not core Americans, and in fact the American nation was forged in part because of three centuries of conflict with the Indians.

    Calling Indians core Americans is like calling Scythians core Russians.

    The Mormons however are indeed a very American story.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    Core Americans in terms of their relation to the land, are the primitive people who had ancestors in the same place for thousands of years, and can talk to the coyotes, and know the secrets of the cactus, and which were portrayed (i.e. the non-English brown ones) in the film “Last of the Mohicans”.

    This is the people who have the most blood connection to the land, of course. Just as Celts have most ancestry connection to Ireland.

    On the other hand, “core American” in terms of relation to the abstract political system that was created in America and resulted in USA – they are surely, the English landowners, who have knowledge of John Locke, and desire for taxation only with representation, etc.

    Locke introduces a theory of property, where something can becomes your property if you add your labour to it.
    https://www.constitution.org/jl/2ndtr05.htm

    So then property, becomes accessible to anyone who can contribute mix their labour to the land (even if they are immigrants with no history of ancestors on the land).

    Locke writes very poetically…

    Thus this law of reason makes the deer that Indian’s who hath killed it; it is allowed to be his goods, who hath bestowed his labour upon it, though before it was the common right of every one. And amongst those who are counted the civilized part of mankind, who have made and multiplied positive laws to determine property, this original law of nature, for the beginning of property, in what was before common, still takes place; and by virtue thereof, what fish any one catches in the ocean, that great and still remaining common of mankind; or what ambergrise any one takes up here, is by the labour that removes it out of that common state nature left it in, made his property, who takes that pains about it. And even amongst us, the hare that any one is hunting, is thought his who pursues her during the chase: for being a beast that is still looked upon as common, and no man’s private possession; whoever has employed so much labour about any of that kind, as to find and pursue her, has thereby removed her from the state of nature, wherein she was common, and hath begun a property.

    • Replies: @LondonBob
    @Dmitry

    The film has very different themes to the book 'Last of the Mohicans'. The different worldview of an early American compared to the ideological propaganda of late twentieth centiry Jewish Hollywood. Indians are portrayed much more negatively, there is little conflict between colonists and British authorities and the martial prowess of British regulars is accurately portrayed.

    Replies: @Dmitry

  481. @Dmitry
    @Dmitry

    In the genetic map of Romanians, there is probably indication of the Ancient Illyrians, from the location in Eastern Italy (area of Illyrian settlement in Italy).


    https://i.imgur.com/kyClqEK.png

    Modern Balkans nationalities have a close genetic relation - if we believe the maps - to areas where Ancient Illyrians had lived, as modern Romanians and Eastern Italians.

    https://i.imgur.com/y3Rd2sA.png

    Replies: @AP, @AP

    Northern Russians:

    Southern and Central Russians:

    Ukrainians:

    Looks like there may be some truth to the idea of Croats coming from western Ukraine, where the White Croat tribe lived. Also Slovaks are very close to Ukrainians.

    Something is weird about those maps (I don’t know their source). Why would Russians from Perm or Samara be completely different from Russians from Saratov. Do these map only consider the indigenous pre-Slavic population of those territories east of the core Slavic areas? That’s the only way those maps make sense.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @AP

    These maps are made by Oleg Balanovsky (and his wife), and comparing supposedly current population samples of these cities.

    Divide of the country into two different genetic groups, created a lot of controversy for him, you can read now.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @AP

  482. @AP
    @Dmitry

    Northern Russians:

    https://site.ua/uploads/post_body_images/3405/59df18e0eed44.jpg

    Southern and Central Russians:

    https://site.ua/uploads/post_body_images/3405/59df1907b6d48.jpg

    Ukrainians:

    https://akarlin.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/map-genetics-ukrainians.jpg

    Looks like there may be some truth to the idea of Croats coming from western Ukraine, where the White Croat tribe lived. Also Slovaks are very close to Ukrainians.

    Something is weird about those maps (I don't know their source). Why would Russians from Perm or Samara be completely different from Russians from Saratov. Do these map only consider the indigenous pre-Slavic population of those territories east of the core Slavic areas? That's the only way those maps make sense.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    These maps are made by Oleg Balanovsky (and his wife), and comparing supposedly current population samples of these cities.

    Divide of the country into two different genetic groups, created a lot of controversy for him, you can read now.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Dmitry

    Obviously, in the maps though he hasn't sampled further East of a certain area, so it looks misleading in the presentation for Russia.

    Replies: @AP

    , @AP
    @Dmitry

    Difference between northern and other Russians makes sense. But how do Russians from Urals become completely different from those in Europe? That makes no sense. Unless the map looks at non-Slavic people native to those areas.

    Replies: @Dmitry

  483. Gerard1234 [AKA "Gerard2"] says:
    @Dmitry
    @Thorfinnsson

    "Core Americans" - are native nationalities like Sioux or Cherokee, who have some thousands of years of connection to the country.

    The rest of population of America, are descendants of a random mix of peasants from European countries, or even Africa - who arrived in the country by almost accidental impulse of one of their ancestors, and have only recent, if any, real connection to its land.

    And that is precisely stimulus for why America is so innovative - a country of alienated immigrants, who are constantly revolutionizing their way of life, partly as an attempt to recompense the terror of living on the wrong side of the Atlantic Ocean from their heritage.

    -

    In my opinion. apotheosis of the "American project", are probably the Mormons of Utah, and Mitt Romney in particular.

    In Utah, there is a completely artificial and bizarre nationality, based on believing Jesus had emigrated to America 2000 years ago (https://www.comeuntochrist.org/blog/what-jesus-christs-visit-to-the-americas-means-to-us ).

    And yet somehow Mormons of Utah have created a more successful life on idiotic, artificial soil, than people living in normal Europe. This is an impressive example of "will to power" in America.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @Gerard1234, @Kent Nationalist

    And that is precisely stimulus for why America is so innovative – a country of alienated immigrants, who are constantly revolutionizing their way of life, partly as an attempt to recompense the terror of living on the wrong side of the Atlantic Ocean from their heritage.

    But are Americans more innovative than Australians or white south Africans during apartheid or the British during the peak of the Empire?…are they actually more innovative than the Israeli’s? Or the Japanese ? Or the Germans?

    Essentially there are the same positive characteristics between all the Anglo-settled Empire parts of the world – Canada/US, South Africa/Rhodesia (for the white population until the 1980’s), Australia/New Zealand…..all countries with plenty of open space and chance for prosperity and all having the same arrogant/bombastic big country vs humble/reserved dynamic ( huge generalisation, I know) between the sets of neighboring countries.

    America would still be a hugely wealthy country without the flood of immigrants from Europe from the last quarter of the 19th century until the end of WW2. It and the world would be significantly different, but it would still be wealthy.

    Other things to look at would be the less than conservative amount of credit that is available and handed out gratuitously there(whoever the government is)……..the much higher interest rate on that credit/loan compared to most other western countries(motivations vs “complacent” Euro’s?).

    Now don’t get me wrong…..gun rights and the mass production and mass ownership of cars are two huge drivers of freedom , and they are a big part of US identity – but I don’t think that or any of the other things linked to “freedom” are as strongly related to business success as they try and tell the rest of the world

  484. Gerard1234 [AKA "Gerard2"] says:

    But are Americans more innovative than Australians or white south Africans during apartheid or the British during the peak of the Empire?…are they actually more innovative than the Israeli’s? Or the Japanese ? Or the Germans?

    Essentially there are the same positive characteristics between all the Anglo-settled Empire parts of the world – Canada/US, South Africa/Rhodesia (for the white population until the 1980’s), Australia/New Zealand…..all countries with plenty of open space and chance for prosperity and all having the same arrogant/bombastic big country vs humble/reserved dynamic ( huge generalisation, I know) between the sets of neighboring countries.

    America would still be a hugely wealthy country without the flood of immigrants from Europe from the last quarter of the 19th century until the end of WW2. It and the world would be significantly different, but it would still be wealthy.

    Other things to look at would be the less than conservative amount of credit that is available and handed out gratuitously there(whoever the government is)……..the much higher interest rate on that credit/loan compared to most other western countries(motivations vs “complacent” Euro’s?).

    Now don’t get me wrong…..gun rights and the mass production and mass ownership of cars are two huge drivers of freedom , and they are a big part of US identity – but I don’t think that or any of the other things linked to “freedom” are as strongly related to business success as they try and tell the rest of the world

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Gerard1234

    Cultural diversity in America, was also coming a lot from the political system, that created a federal system of different states, and the separation of religion from state which allows people like the Mormons to develop freely.

    Mormons in Utah have classical choirs which are singing hymns about Planet Kolob (the planet where they believe Mormons will settle after they die).

    I'm not sure any other country in the world would allow such a nationality to develop. (And yet Mormons today are very successful people despite their bizarre ideology).

    Here is planet Kolob.

    https://mythology.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Where-is-Kolob.jpg

    And here video of Mormon classical choirs can sing about Planet Kolob.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_h_1WRcMQg

    Replies: @Gerad. 1

  485. @Dmitry
    @Dmitry

    In the genetic map of Romanians, there is probably indication of the Ancient Illyrians, from the location in Eastern Italy (area of Illyrian settlement in Italy).


    https://i.imgur.com/kyClqEK.png

    Modern Balkans nationalities have a close genetic relation - if we believe the maps - to areas where Ancient Illyrians had lived, as modern Romanians and Eastern Italians.

    https://i.imgur.com/y3Rd2sA.png

    Replies: @AP, @AP

    Albanians:

    Serbs:

    They look similar, Serbs are lighter.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @AP

    For my amateur eyes, many Balkan nationalities look similar to Romanians and Southern Italians, which supports Balanovsky's maps probably.

    Here is Belgrade University in Serbia. (to me they look similar to South-East Italians)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R43PG98OuOE


    If you compare to students in Bari in Southern Italy

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFzhpnQrpRE

    If you compare North Western Italian students in Milan (where Illyrians did not settle), they do not look so similar.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9vXoS3PJwg


    With Romanian students in Bucharest (which have probably Illyrian descent), there might be something slightly similar.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cRr9dnroBc

    Replies: @AP

    , @melanf
    @AP


    Albanians:
    Serbs:
    They look similar, Serbs are lighter.
     
    This is clearly a ridiculous (in this case) way of comparing.

    Serbs are also similar to (for example) Spaniards

    https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-KZR53t1qbSc/VDJ0kw4j7WI/AAAAAAAArx0/GfYHYOh7dcg/s912/SvecaniPrijemBrucosaPFB-062.JPG

    http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5110/5609629645_48edc6a1a1_b.jpg

    https://www.arbitrationassociation.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/BGMoottim2016.jpg

    http://cmapspublic2.ihmc.us/rid=1176747146049_1220501028_10153/alumnos%20espa%D0%93%C2%B1oles.jpg

    Also Serbs will be similar to Italians, Greeks, Ukrainians.... any people with a predominant southern European phenotype.

    Replies: @melanf, @RadicalCenter, @RadicalCenter

    , @Thulean Friend
    @AP


    Serbs are lighter
     
    Not my experience here in Sweden and we have a huge ex-yugo diaspora. Plus, if you're gonna cherrypick then I can do that also. Here is a demonstration of Serbian nationalists.

    https://i.imgur.com/jrTKyHz.jpg

    In my experience, Serbs, while being swarthier, have typically been better-behaved in my dealings with them. I've met quite a few of Albanians who I could have mistaken for an ethnic Swede by seeing them on the streets but who acted like complete trash, indistinguishable for ghetto arabs in any interaction.

    That said, I find nordicism to be incredibly stupid. I like blond and blue-eyed people for purely aesthetic reasons. There's something to be said for looking at a crowd of people and to some extent see yourself reflected in them. But this is a purely personal aesthetic preference. The notion that some Europeans are "better" because they are lighter is silly. Northern Russia is certainly less swarthy than France yet the latter is unmistakably more prosperous. It's just D&C bullshit of the lowest orders.

    Replies: @Korenchkin

  486. @Dmitry
    @AP

    These maps are made by Oleg Balanovsky (and his wife), and comparing supposedly current population samples of these cities.

    Divide of the country into two different genetic groups, created a lot of controversy for him, you can read now.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @AP

    Obviously, in the maps though he hasn’t sampled further East of a certain area, so it looks misleading in the presentation for Russia.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Dmitry

    There were dots out there. I suspect they were some Bashkir or whatever villages.

  487. @Dmitry
    @AP

    These maps are made by Oleg Balanovsky (and his wife), and comparing supposedly current population samples of these cities.

    Divide of the country into two different genetic groups, created a lot of controversy for him, you can read now.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @AP

    Difference between northern and other Russians makes sense. But how do Russians from Urals become completely different from those in Europe? That makes no sense. Unless the map looks at non-Slavic people native to those areas.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @AP

    For example, in the Northern Russian map, it looks like he hasn't sampled Northern Russian populations further East than border between Republic of Komi and Arkhangelsk. (And just painted it all red East of that border).

    But it creates a very misleading impression in this map.

  488. @Dmitry
    @Dmitry

    Obviously, in the maps though he hasn't sampled further East of a certain area, so it looks misleading in the presentation for Russia.

    Replies: @AP

    There were dots out there. I suspect they were some Bashkir or whatever villages.

  489. Gerard1234 [AKA "Gerard2"] says:
    @AP
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Nice catch.

    I suspect Zelensky's popularity in Russia would be over 20% however.

    Replies: @Gerard1234

    I suspect Zelensky’s popularity in Russia would be over 20% however.

    LOL……it’s pretty obvious that he would have popularity in Russia,…..the country that made him famous, the country where ( laughably) he would have to travel to in order to be able to see all his films because some of his films are actually banned in Ukraine( and regularly on Rossiya/Perviy Kanal), the country that gave him his biggest audiences and exposure, the country whose language he used in his comedic work and in his political comedy that basically got him elected by the Ukrainian population…and where most of his financing- directly or indirectly inevitably comes from

    As for political popularity – that would be closer to 0% than to 10% you idiot. Nobody in Russia wants part of the failed Ukrainian freakshow you dumb prick

  490. @Gerard1234

    But are Americans more innovative than Australians or white south Africans during apartheid or the British during the peak of the Empire?…are they actually more innovative than the Israeli’s? Or the Japanese ? Or the Germans?
     
    Essentially there are the same positive characteristics between all the Anglo-settled Empire parts of the world – Canada/US, South Africa/Rhodesia (for the white population until the 1980’s), Australia/New Zealand…..all countries with plenty of open space and chance for prosperity and all having the same arrogant/bombastic big country vs humble/reserved dynamic ( huge generalisation, I know) between the sets of neighboring countries.

    America would still be a hugely wealthy country without the flood of immigrants from Europe from the last quarter of the 19th century until the end of WW2. It and the world would be significantly different, but it would still be wealthy.

    Other things to look at would be the less than conservative amount of credit that is available and handed out gratuitously there(whoever the government is)……..the much higher interest rate on that credit/loan compared to most other western countries(motivations vs “complacent” Euro’s?).

    Now don’t get me wrong…..gun rights and the mass production and mass ownership of cars are two huge drivers of freedom , and they are a big part of US identity – but I don’t think that or any of the other things linked to “freedom” are as strongly related to business success as they try and tell the rest of the world

    Replies: @Dmitry

    Cultural diversity in America, was also coming a lot from the political system, that created a federal system of different states, and the separation of religion from state which allows people like the Mormons to develop freely.

    Mormons in Utah have classical choirs which are singing hymns about Planet Kolob (the planet where they believe Mormons will settle after they die).

    I’m not sure any other country in the world would allow such a nationality to develop. (And yet Mormons today are very successful people despite their bizarre ideology).

    Here is planet Kolob.

    And here video of Mormon classical choirs can sing about Planet Kolob.

    • LOL: AP
    • Replies: @Gerad. 1
    @Dmitry

    Cmon Dmitry, you're a very smart guy. It is in my opinion,total BS about the separation of church and state. In say ,1915 or 1855, there was less chance of a Roman Catholic being allowed to be US President, than there is now for the King of Saudi Arabia to be Orthodox jewish.
    Prohibition of Alcohol in the 1920s had a large Wasp vs Catholic political side to it.

    As for the eccentricities of the Mormon religion .....that is nothing more than a manifestation of Amercan insecurity and maybe even inferiority complex towards the great "old world" in Europe with all this great big history, institutions, science, architecture and so on behind it. At it's most harmless it manifests itself in americans changing English pronunciations of words like anti (pronounced antee) into anTIE......and in other ways manifests itself in these weird methamophising of Christianity which is not just the Mormons but the 7th day Adventists and others. It is more a way of showing a middle finger to the old world, coupled with strange personalities that can develop in a frontier town in a harsh environment ( not much surprise that Conan-Doyle set the very first Sherlock Holmes story on Mormons, he had travelled to Utah)

    I felt a bit of this complexe on my family holiday to Majorca couple of months ago ( and actually on several non Amercan holidays before ) where I hardly came across any americans at the packed out beaches, or the nightclubs or the bars.....but I did come across a huge load of them in the old city and at Palma Cathedral in particular.

    Another side to all this is that in the majority of the west, attitudes to bankruptcy, until relatively recently ,were extremely negative......almost as much as to out of marriage children and faggots. In US there was the same attitude to fag and out of marriage kids......but nowhere near as much social stigma to bankruptcy, where there seems to be no conservatism. That is a big safety net for so-called innovation. Most other western countries would never even think of electing a guy with as many bankruptcies as Trump......and I once recall reading about Romney calling the Detroit car manufacturing industries as filing for bankruptcy as great for them. In the rest of the west they were always more conservative on this issue.

    Replies: @Dmitry

  491. @AP
    @Dmitry

    Difference between northern and other Russians makes sense. But how do Russians from Urals become completely different from those in Europe? That makes no sense. Unless the map looks at non-Slavic people native to those areas.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    For example, in the Northern Russian map, it looks like he hasn’t sampled Northern Russian populations further East than border between Republic of Komi and Arkhangelsk. (And just painted it all red East of that border).

    But it creates a very misleading impression in this map.

  492. @Dmitry
    @German_reader


    women died in childbirth

     

    Women dying in childbirth does not reduce number of women in first marriage group. (Except those who become pregnant illegitimately).

    It can free ex-husbands to remarry I guess, but the dynamic of women outnumbering first marrying men in first marriage would be very common in most of history.


    creating the polity known as the US
     
    But this is abstract political philosophy, which might be relevant to political science or legal theory, but not to rootedness in the land.

    The land itself is a foreign and alien one to the immigrants - and you feel this quite strongly when you visit particularly subtropical parts like Southern California (it's a very foreign and alien climate - as well as wildlife and fauna - for Northern European races who arrived their quite randomly, although at least their own impulsion unlike African immigrants)

    Replies: @German_reader

    and you feel this quite strongly when you visit particularly subtropical parts like Southern California

    Maybe, but it probably feels rather different in a state like West Virginia where many people may well have family roots in the region going back to the 18th or even 17th century.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @German_reader

    Sure perhaps in the 21st century people are now feeling very rooted in the land, with 8 or more generations living there, but at least when Jefferson builds Monticello in the 18th century, even Virginia would have seemed exotic.

    Latitude of the location of Monticello, is the same as Athens or Sicily. And then he populates the land outside his mansion with African slaves, which would be probably singing African songs as they work in the plantation.

    Replies: @German_reader, @AP

  493. @Mr. Hack
    @AnonFromTN

    Typical view of someone who never lived in Ukraine?


    why not move and live in splendid Russia? Sure you might make a few less bucks, but then again you wouldn’t feel so much like a Gastarbeiter. eh? 🙂 Take AK as an example!

     

    Are you stating that one can't work and live in Russia and be involved with non-military scientific research? An interesting proposition. According to your remarks earlier, it can't be the food that's keeping you there in Tennessee, nor the music. :-)

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

    Maybe the difference isn’t clear for the uninitiated. “Being involved” in scientific research and actually doing it at the level that produces meaningful results are two different things. It’s roughly like between “being involved” in movie industry (say, as a cleaner) and starring in a movie. Say, if you are a skilled Formula 1 driver, would you settle for driving a donkey?

    At the moment Russian biomedical research is nowhere near the level of top places. There are many high-class labs in the US, a few in Europe, China, Japan, Singapore, Taiwan, etc. The US used to produce ~80% of high quality world research in the 1990-s. Now its share is down to 35-40%, but it is still large. Besides, like in every place full of bottom-feeders, there would be lots of envy and ill will in the Russian Academy of Sciences: I have more good papers and citations than most Academy members in these areas. In biomedical research Russia as a country is somewhere in the 30-s in the world (before you ask, Ukraine is in the 80-s or 90-s).

    It might be hard to comprehend for people who don’t give a hoot about their job, but for me the quality of my work is paramount. Both geography and pay are secondary considerations. I get out of TN (and the US) for vacations, and I don’t have time to spend what they pay me, anyway. If the Congress keeps doing its level best to kill American science, I’ll have to move somewhere like China or Singapore. If Russian government comes up with a viable program of developing basic biomedical science, I’d consider Russia, too.

    BTW, the plan in the new Ukrainian budget is to starve science even further. About 244 billion hryvnas are allocated for the army and police, and about 2 billion (less than 1% of that) for science.

    • Agree: Anatoly Karlin
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @AnonFromTN

    All that you're doing here is emphasizing the fact that Russia is a third world power incapable of creating an environment for its own citizens to prosper either intellectually, professionally or financially. Why sit here day after day, 24/7, and extoll the virtues of Russian civilization, if you've actually chosen to run away from it and live somewhere else, better? Come to think if , you're actually a worse creature than the janissars that I often compare you with - they were forced into their servile roles, whereas you freely chose a similar fate. :-(

    Why not stay in Russia (like Anatoly Karlin) and work to make it a better country?

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @AnonFromTN

  494. @AP
    @Dmitry

    Albanians:

    http://www.oranews.tv/storage/app/media/home/ora/public_html/storage/app/media/2018/12/05/3mijeleke-studente.jpg

    https://www.worldbulletin.net/images/resize/100/656x400/haberler/2018/12/thousands-of-albanian-students-protests-in-front-of-education-ministry_51041.jpg

    Serbs:

    https://www.arbitrationassociation.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/BGMoottim2016.jpg

    https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-KZR53t1qbSc/VDJ0kw4j7WI/AAAAAAAArx0/GfYHYOh7dcg/s912/SvecaniPrijemBrucosaPFB-062.JPG

    They look similar, Serbs are lighter.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @melanf, @Thulean Friend

    For my amateur eyes, many Balkan nationalities look similar to Romanians and Southern Italians, which supports Balanovsky’s maps probably.

    Here is Belgrade University in Serbia. (to me they look similar to South-East Italians)

    If you compare to students in Bari in Southern Italy

    If you compare North Western Italian students in Milan (where Illyrians did not settle), they do not look so similar.

    With Romanian students in Bucharest (which have probably Illyrian descent), there might be something slightly similar.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Dmitry

    I agree.

  495. @German_reader
    @Dmitry


    and you feel this quite strongly when you visit particularly subtropical parts like Southern California
     
    Maybe, but it probably feels rather different in a state like West Virginia where many people may well have family roots in the region going back to the 18th or even 17th century.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    Sure perhaps in the 21st century people are now feeling very rooted in the land, with 8 or more generations living there, but at least when Jefferson builds Monticello in the 18th century, even Virginia would have seemed exotic.

    Latitude of the location of Monticello, is the same as Athens or Sicily. And then he populates the land outside his mansion with African slaves, which would be probably singing African songs as they work in the plantation.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Dmitry

    What's your point? None of this changes the fact that British Protestants (and to a lesser extent other Northwest European Protestant groups) were the dominant group shaping the US in the first 200 years of the polity.
    You wouldn't call Arabs "core Israelis" either. Calling Amerindians "core Americans" is even sillier.

    Replies: @Kent Nationalist, @Dmitry

    , @AP
    @Dmitry


    Latitude of the location of Monticello, is the same as Athens or Sicily.
     
    Sure, but climate is like continental.
  496. German_reader says:
    @Dmitry
    @German_reader

    Sure perhaps in the 21st century people are now feeling very rooted in the land, with 8 or more generations living there, but at least when Jefferson builds Monticello in the 18th century, even Virginia would have seemed exotic.

    Latitude of the location of Monticello, is the same as Athens or Sicily. And then he populates the land outside his mansion with African slaves, which would be probably singing African songs as they work in the plantation.

    Replies: @German_reader, @AP

    What’s your point? None of this changes the fact that British Protestants (and to a lesser extent other Northwest European Protestant groups) were the dominant group shaping the US in the first 200 years of the polity.
    You wouldn’t call Arabs “core Israelis” either. Calling Amerindians “core Americans” is even sillier.

    • Replies: @Kent Nationalist
    @German_reader

    So strange that a Jew would try to subvert someone's identity

    , @Dmitry
    @German_reader

    If you want to change definition of word "core", to mean "dominant group". I talked about "core American", not "dominant American".

    Jewish conspiracy theory believes that Jews were dominant in USSR, or modern Russia/Ukraine. But such dominance as believed by conspiracy, does not imply that Jews are not foreigners or somewhat recent immigrants to Russia, without ancient native roots.

    -

    In the case of America, if you read Locke's writing, Indians are used precisely to explain how it would be possible to have property rights. (Indians were "gold standard" for how you could attain property rights).

    So even in an abstract sense, Indians were viewed as standard to compare to for Englishmen settling the American continent.
    https://www.constitution.org/jl/2ndtr05.htm


    wouldn’t call Arabs “core Israelis” either. Calling Amerindians “core Americans”

     

    Core Israelis are obviously brown skin Middle Eastern Jew, which would have both genetic and cultural connection to the ancient history of the region. It's people who can say their ancestors were on the land as long as historical memory.

    Do you think racially Russian, Israeli politician Anastasia Michaeli is a core Israeli? People who need sun cream in the region and have no genetic connection to Middle East, are not core, even if they are wealthy and politically dominant.

    Melanin content shows this is not any historical core of a Middle Eastern region, even if a family have political or economic power.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGQ1O3WFhRI

    That doesn't imply recent settlers and immigrants are not dominant or elite in the lands. For example, Aryans who carried Sanskrit, as well as their gods, to Ancient India, were for many centuries an elite compared to the Dravidians, and institutionalized this for millenia into a caste system.

    And, if we agree with Locke, it also does not have any implication for property rights in land settled more recently.

    Replies: @German_reader

  497. @Dmitry
    @German_reader

    Sure perhaps in the 21st century people are now feeling very rooted in the land, with 8 or more generations living there, but at least when Jefferson builds Monticello in the 18th century, even Virginia would have seemed exotic.

    Latitude of the location of Monticello, is the same as Athens or Sicily. And then he populates the land outside his mansion with African slaves, which would be probably singing African songs as they work in the plantation.

    Replies: @German_reader, @AP

    Latitude of the location of Monticello, is the same as Athens or Sicily.

    Sure, but climate is like continental.

  498. @Dmitry
    @AP

    For my amateur eyes, many Balkan nationalities look similar to Romanians and Southern Italians, which supports Balanovsky's maps probably.

    Here is Belgrade University in Serbia. (to me they look similar to South-East Italians)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R43PG98OuOE


    If you compare to students in Bari in Southern Italy

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFzhpnQrpRE

    If you compare North Western Italian students in Milan (where Illyrians did not settle), they do not look so similar.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9vXoS3PJwg


    With Romanian students in Bucharest (which have probably Illyrian descent), there might be something slightly similar.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cRr9dnroBc

    Replies: @AP

    I agree.

  499. The only reason the USSR did not fold in the summer of 1941 is because it had a lot more manpower to throw away, in the 3rd quarter of 1941 alone the Soviets recruited 6.3 million fresh men, the equivalent of 450 rifle divisions, and than it went on to raise another 1.9 million in the 4th quarter of 1941. In 1941 alone therefore the USSR raised 8.2 million fresh troops to augment it’s existing force of 4.9 million meaning it had fielded by the end of 1941 over 13 million men, France could not even hope to field half that number.

    By the beginning of 1942 there were only 7 million soldiers in the military, meaning the Germans had eliminated over 6 million soviet troops from the order of battle in 6 months, I don’t know how any army including the french could have taken those losses, the french didn’t even have 6 million men to fight with. To give an idea of how extreme those losses are, the Germans lost for the whole duration of the war on the eastern front, 4 million men killed and captured, the soviets lost more men in 1941 alone than the Germans did for the whole war on the eastern front.

    The USSR definitely did not survive because it refused to surrender, it survived because it had the manpower to survive immense losses, soviet troops on the other hand surrendered in massive quantities, for all the talk about the fighting spirit of the Red Army, millions upon millions of red army troops surrendered in 1941 in the biggest mass surrenders in world history.

    • Agree: reiner Tor
    • Replies: @Korenchkin
    @Annatar

    The Russian Empire also had a massive manpower advantage yet it folded under much less pressure on the frontlines
    Difference was the willingless to sacrifice lives, infrastructure and resources in order to buy time and wear the enemy down
    Imagine if those encirclements happened under the 1914 Tsarist system, they would've instantly collapsed
    The expectation (from everyone really, not just Germans) was that the USSR would fold just like the Russian Empire did and descend into Civil War, this was what made the difference
    Had the party fled Moscow to catch a boat in Vladivostok and all the soldiers started deserting or joining the enemy (a missed opportunity for the Germans) then no advantage could've saved them
    Just as the French held firm during WW1 in spite of the horrifying opening battles of the war and eventually wore down the Germans

    Something similar happened during the British conquest of India, only on a smaller scale, treachery, technological disatvantage and lack of unity allowed a smaller force to conquer a giant section of Eurasia, in fact Hitler cited Colonial British India as a good system to implement on Eastern Europe after it had been conquered

    I am not defending Communism or actions of Communists here, just pointing out that the refusal to give up despite what seemed at first to be overwhelming odds did make a large difference

    Replies: @Mikhail, @Anatoly Karlin, @Vishnugupta, @Annatar

    , @Epigon
    @Annatar


    To give an idea of how extreme those losses are, the Germans lost for the whole duration of the war on the eastern front, 4 million men killed and captured,
     
    Nonsense.
    Where did the German forces disappear, then? Where did their manpower evaporate? It would be extremely interesting to take a look at your breakdown of German military strength, recruited, lost on a per-year basis.

    It's like those people who take German AFV kill and loss claims at face value.

    Or that idiot Krivosheev adding all losses from Soviet reports and claiming 96500 lost Soviet AFVs, which was immediately taken up by those same imbeciles who parroted figures of 26000 Soviet tanks at the start of Barbarossa.
    Imagine their shock when presented with Soviet tank inventory at the end of war and yearly production, Lend-Lease figures, and finding out how ridiculously wrong they are.

    Replies: @Annatar

    , @Anatoly Karlin
    @Annatar

    While I agree with the demographic arguments, this is stretching things too far.

    The difference of 6M would have included the wounded (whether temporary or permanent), as well as soldiers released back into the workforce (e.g. technical specialists - the USSR was more assiduous about conserving those, perhaps because they had relatively fewer of them than Germany). They are not comparable to Germans who were flat out killed/captured.

    Replies: @Annatar

  500. @AP
    @Dmitry

    Albanians:

    http://www.oranews.tv/storage/app/media/home/ora/public_html/storage/app/media/2018/12/05/3mijeleke-studente.jpg

    https://www.worldbulletin.net/images/resize/100/656x400/haberler/2018/12/thousands-of-albanian-students-protests-in-front-of-education-ministry_51041.jpg

    Serbs:

    https://www.arbitrationassociation.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/BGMoottim2016.jpg

    https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-KZR53t1qbSc/VDJ0kw4j7WI/AAAAAAAArx0/GfYHYOh7dcg/s912/SvecaniPrijemBrucosaPFB-062.JPG

    They look similar, Serbs are lighter.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @melanf, @Thulean Friend

    Albanians:
    Serbs:
    They look similar, Serbs are lighter.

    This is clearly a ridiculous (in this case) way of comparing.

    Serbs are also similar to (for example) Spaniards

    Also Serbs will be similar to Italians, Greeks, Ukrainians…. any people with a predominant southern European phenotype.

    • Agree: Mikhail
    • Replies: @melanf
    @melanf

    This is very approximate, but seems mostly correct division of the European peoples by origin (although strangely the unification of the Finns with the peoples of the Northern Urals)

    https://d1softball.net/wp-content/uploads/ktz/map-of-europe-1600-ad-37ipi4w3m0czz8xbf3v668.jpg

    Replies: @Korenchkin, @Epigon, @Thulean Friend

    , @RadicalCenter
    @melanf

    Ukrainians I’ve seen in the Ukraine and in the USA and Canada, typically do not look much like Italians or Greeks. Their phenotype is not mainly Southern European, which should be obvious from their characteristic appearance and their genes. Ukrainians look more often somewhat like Scandinavians and northern Russians.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

    , @RadicalCenter
    @melanf

    Ukrainians I’ve seen in the Ukraine and in the USA and Canada, typically do not look much like Italians or Greeks. (I’m roughly half Italian genetically and, despite being tall and having light eyes, look very little like most Ukrainians.)

    Their phenotype is not mainly Southern European, which should be obvious from their characteristic appearance and their genes.

    Ukrainians look more often somewhat like Scandinavians and northern Russians.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @melanf

  501. @melanf
    @AP


    Albanians:
    Serbs:
    They look similar, Serbs are lighter.
     
    This is clearly a ridiculous (in this case) way of comparing.

    Serbs are also similar to (for example) Spaniards

    https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-KZR53t1qbSc/VDJ0kw4j7WI/AAAAAAAArx0/GfYHYOh7dcg/s912/SvecaniPrijemBrucosaPFB-062.JPG

    http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5110/5609629645_48edc6a1a1_b.jpg

    https://www.arbitrationassociation.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/BGMoottim2016.jpg

    http://cmapspublic2.ihmc.us/rid=1176747146049_1220501028_10153/alumnos%20espa%D0%93%C2%B1oles.jpg

    Also Serbs will be similar to Italians, Greeks, Ukrainians.... any people with a predominant southern European phenotype.

    Replies: @melanf, @RadicalCenter, @RadicalCenter

    This is very approximate, but seems mostly correct division of the European peoples by origin (although strangely the unification of the Finns with the peoples of the Northern Urals)

    • Replies: @Korenchkin
    @melanf

    I'd draw a line somewhere through Anatolia and couple it with Greece and Cyprus label it Greco-Anatolian with the rest being Near Eastern
    Iranians and Greeks are definitely different enough to be separate

    Caucasians could also probably be their own group

    , @Epigon
    @melanf

    This map is fake and gay.

    East Austria and East Germany are Slavic more than they are Germanic, let alone Celto-Germanic.

    There is less Greek/Mediterranean among Serbs than there is Scandinavian.

    How can south Croatia and Herzegovina, where I2a maxes out among Croats, followed by R1a, be any different from Bosnia and Serbia where I2a is most prevalent, followed by R1a?

    Slavonia spoke Serb Shtokavian ekavica and ijekavica as a result of Austrian settlement of Serbs following its reconquest from Ottomans - something noted in census data and works of Reljković, in addition to being called Little Rascia by Hungarians in 15th, 16th century due to Serbs fleeing Ottoman invasion. So how in the world can Slavonia be different from Baranya, Vojvodina?

    Replies: @melanf

    , @Thulean Friend
    @melanf

    Hungarians being Slavo-Germanic? People who don't understand genetics should not post haplomeme maps. And haplomemes in of themselves are less useful to understanding ancestry than genetic clusters.

    Replies: @melanf

  502. @Dmitry
    @Thorfinnsson

    "Core Americans" - are native nationalities like Sioux or Cherokee, who have some thousands of years of connection to the country.

    The rest of population of America, are descendants of a random mix of peasants from European countries, or even Africa - who arrived in the country by almost accidental impulse of one of their ancestors, and have only recent, if any, real connection to its land.

    And that is precisely stimulus for why America is so innovative - a country of alienated immigrants, who are constantly revolutionizing their way of life, partly as an attempt to recompense the terror of living on the wrong side of the Atlantic Ocean from their heritage.

    -

    In my opinion. apotheosis of the "American project", are probably the Mormons of Utah, and Mitt Romney in particular.

    In Utah, there is a completely artificial and bizarre nationality, based on believing Jesus had emigrated to America 2000 years ago (https://www.comeuntochrist.org/blog/what-jesus-christs-visit-to-the-americas-means-to-us ).

    And yet somehow Mormons of Utah have created a more successful life on idiotic, artificial soil, than people living in normal Europe. This is an impressive example of "will to power" in America.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @Gerard1234, @Kent Nationalist

    “Core Americans” – are native nationalities like Sioux or Cherokee, who have some thousands of years of connection to the country.

    Core Americans are the descendants of the Australian Aborigines the Amerindians genocided.

  503. @German_reader
    @Dmitry

    What's your point? None of this changes the fact that British Protestants (and to a lesser extent other Northwest European Protestant groups) were the dominant group shaping the US in the first 200 years of the polity.
    You wouldn't call Arabs "core Israelis" either. Calling Amerindians "core Americans" is even sillier.

    Replies: @Kent Nationalist, @Dmitry

    So strange that a Jew would try to subvert someone’s identity

  504. @AP
    @Epigon

    An excellent response. At the very least, one can conclude that modern Serbs are only about 25% Slavic by descent. If the isolated groups you mention turn out to be as Slavic as Ukrainians, or Slovenes, or others this may indicate that medieval Serbs, unlike modern ones, were Slavs. Though it may also mean they have always been Slavs surrounded by non-Slavs, like those enclaves of blonde blue eyed people in the mountains of Pakistan.

    Has anyone analyzed medieval Serb remains?

    Replies: @Epigon

    How do you find the Slavic content in an individual looking at Y-DNA research? Would that mean that R1a Indians are more Slavic than Carpathian and west Rus’ I2a?

    There is a thorough genetical research underway – Serb DNA Project. https://dnk.poreklo.rs/DNK-projekat/
    It laid to rest Turk nonsense peddled by some, while discovering even Saxon (miners, burghers), Norman (Zeta, Dyrrachion), Celtic (4th, 3rd century BC arrival) and Gothic (migration) descent among modern Serbs. Peculiarities like I1 (Scandinavian – 10.5%) presence rivaling E1b (Balkan – 13.8%) etc.

    I2a is the most prevalent single haplogroup among Serbs according to data gathered until now 33%-35% – and this I2a subgroup is apparently younger than I2a in west Ukraine and Carpathians, AND less diverse in Balkans – implying a founder effect and migration to the Balkans from their original homeland – being 2300-2500 years old.

    Serbs west of Drina have more R1a and less I2a. The best part is that Serbs in Serbia are genetically closer to Croats than to Serbs of Montenegro, not to mention Serbs of Croatia to Croats.
    There is an explanation – Serby of Lusatia have the highest R1a % in the world (60+%), and the original Serb settlement and statehood in 9th century is mostly outside of present-day Serbia. Beyond doubt, Serby of Germany and original Balkan Serbs have common ancestors, but a lot has happened in the last 1300 years.
    There are several neighboruing Slavic tribes/groups distinct from Serbs – Moravians, Timoscians, Dragovitians – who were dominant on the territory of present day Serbia initially.

    [MORE]

    Contemporary Frankish (Annales describing the resolution of Pannonian revolt – Liudevit fled over river Sava to Serbs who hold most of Dalmatia) and Byzantine (everything south of Cetina – Serbs – Pagania, Travunia, Zachlumia, Diocleia) chronicles confirm this – so maps such as these combined with Serb architectural remains in Ston (St.Michael’s church) and west Herzegovina (church ruins and inscriptions containing Nemanjić donours) prove it beyond doubt. Croats have a duty to sperg out, deny primary sources and start ranting.

    There is actually a good explanation for significantly lower E1b presence among Serbs than among neighbouring Bulgarians – medieval Serb laws explicitly forbade intermarrying of Serbs and non-Serb Balkanites, starting with code of laws by king Milutin and going all the way to Tzar Dušan. Only after Ottoman invasion and subsequent migrations would they intermarry, assimilate to form modern Serb nation.

    When it comes to genetic diversity within a single “nation”, Muslim Bosniaks have no peers. Among Bosniaks of Novi Pazar/Sanjak Area, R1a is practically non-existant, while it is the dominant haplogroup in west Bosnia Bosniaks, 30+%.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Epigon


    There is actually a good explanation for significantly lower E1b presence among Serbs than among neighbouring Bulgarians – medieval Serb laws explicitly forbade intermarrying of Serbs and non-Serb Balkanites, starting with code of laws by king Milutin and going all the way to Tzar Dušan. Only after Ottoman invasion and subsequent migrations would they intermarry, assimilate to form modern Serb nation.
     
    If correct, this suggests that modern "Serbs" can essentially be characterized as Serb-speaking Balkanoids LARPing as medieval Serbs, although isolated pockets of actual Serbs still exist. So modern Serbs celebrating medieval Serbs as their heroes is analogous to some Guatemalan Mestizos celebrating the exploits of Cortes, the literature of Cervantes, as their own.

    Fascinating. Of course Eastern Slavs can be no less ridiculous. Ukrainian and Russian Slavs fight over whether the Scandinavian Rus overlords who enslaved Slavs were Ukrainian or Russian.

    Replies: @Brutis, @melanf

  505. @Annatar
    The only reason the USSR did not fold in the summer of 1941 is because it had a lot more manpower to throw away, in the 3rd quarter of 1941 alone the Soviets recruited 6.3 million fresh men, the equivalent of 450 rifle divisions, and than it went on to raise another 1.9 million in the 4th quarter of 1941. In 1941 alone therefore the USSR raised 8.2 million fresh troops to augment it's existing force of 4.9 million meaning it had fielded by the end of 1941 over 13 million men, France could not even hope to field half that number.

    By the beginning of 1942 there were only 7 million soldiers in the military, meaning the Germans had eliminated over 6 million soviet troops from the order of battle in 6 months, I don't know how any army including the french could have taken those losses, the french didn't even have 6 million men to fight with. To give an idea of how extreme those losses are, the Germans lost for the whole duration of the war on the eastern front, 4 million men killed and captured, the soviets lost more men in 1941 alone than the Germans did for the whole war on the eastern front.

    The USSR definitely did not survive because it refused to surrender, it survived because it had the manpower to survive immense losses, soviet troops on the other hand surrendered in massive quantities, for all the talk about the fighting spirit of the Red Army, millions upon millions of red army troops surrendered in 1941 in the biggest mass surrenders in world history.

    Replies: @Korenchkin, @Epigon, @Anatoly Karlin

    The Russian Empire also had a massive manpower advantage yet it folded under much less pressure on the frontlines
    Difference was the willingless to sacrifice lives, infrastructure and resources in order to buy time and wear the enemy down
    Imagine if those encirclements happened under the 1914 Tsarist system, they would’ve instantly collapsed
    The expectation (from everyone really, not just Germans) was that the USSR would fold just like the Russian Empire did and descend into Civil War, this was what made the difference
    Had the party fled Moscow to catch a boat in Vladivostok and all the soldiers started deserting or joining the enemy (a missed opportunity for the Germans) then no advantage could’ve saved them
    Just as the French held firm during WW1 in spite of the horrifying opening battles of the war and eventually wore down the Germans

    Something similar happened during the British conquest of India, only on a smaller scale, treachery, technological disatvantage and lack of unity allowed a smaller force to conquer a giant section of Eurasia, in fact Hitler cited Colonial British India as a good system to implement on Eastern Europe after it had been conquered

    I am not defending Communism or actions of Communists here, just pointing out that the refusal to give up despite what seemed at first to be overwhelming odds did make a large difference

    • Replies: @Mikhail
    @Korenchkin


    The Russian Empire also had a massive manpower advantage yet it folded under much less pressure on the frontlines
    Difference was the willingless to sacrifice lives, infrastructure and resources in order to buy time and wear the enemy down
    Imagine if those encirclements happened under the 1914 Tsarist system, they would’ve instantly collapsed
    The expectation (from everyone really, not just Germans) was that the USSR would fold just like the Russian Empire did and descend into Civil War, this was what made the difference
    Had the party fled Moscow to catch a boat in Vladivostok and all the soldiers started deserting or joining the enemy (a missed opportunity for the Germans) then no advantage could’ve saved them
    Just as the French held firm during WW1 in spite of the horrifying opening battles of the war and eventually wore down the Germans

    Something similar happened during the British conquest of India, only on a smaller scale, treachery, technological disatvantage and lack of unity allowed a smaller force to conquer a giant section of Eurasia, in fact Hitler cited Colonial British India as a good system to implement on Eastern Europe after it had been conquered

    I am not defending Communism or actions of Communists here, just pointing out that the refusal to give up despite what seemed at first to be overwhelming odds did make a large difference

     

    Sovok like thinking has subconsciously influenced a good number. In the early part of WW I, Russia launched an attack into Germany that proved catastrophic in a way that included wrecking morale. Added to that was the German use of the Bolshes.

    In WW II, the Nazis brutally attacked the USSR without using people like Vlasov in somewhat (stress somewhat) the same manner that the Germans used Lenin in WW I.

    A major difference having to do with launching an attack into another country versus being brutally attacked. In the latter WW II example, many Soviet citizens felt comparatively more desperate to fight the enemy. In WW I, there was more second guessing on the need to take such casualties.
    , @Anatoly Karlin
    @Korenchkin


    The Russian Empire also had a massive manpower advantage yet it folded under much less pressure on the frontlines
     
    Where exactly? It made gains against AH and Turkey, and held the line against Germany after 1915.

    Just as the French held firm during WW1 in spite of the horrifying opening battles of the war and eventually wore down the Germans
     
    The French mutinies in the wake of the Nivelle Offensive were far more serious than any discipline issues the Russian Empire (i.e., before the February Revolution) had.

    Difference was the willingless to sacrifice lives, infrastructure and resources in order to buy time and wear the enemy down
     
    True for totalitarian regimes. The Germans were also far more ruthless in WW2, and never broke like the Kaiser's Army did in late 1918.
    , @Vishnugupta
    @Korenchkin

    The USSR vs Nazi Germany war was a war between two industrialized countries.

    German Empire vs Tsarist Russia was a war between the then most industrialized country on the planet vs an agrarian country with a few bright sparks like Sikorsky.(Yes I know it was 'rapidly industrializing' from a low base but that industrialization was dependent of foreign capital(The sovereign foreign debt of Tsarist Russia was the highest of any nation Pre WW1) and had many other headwinds which should make one read the rosy alternate history projections of Russia being on course to emerging as a US class industrial super power with more than a few grains of salt)

    The USSR outproduced not just Germany but the Whole of Continental Europe in Tank,Aircraft and Artillery gun production with all critical components(engines etc.) manufactured from raw materials in Russia.This is including the one year gap in which the industrial plants were dismantled transported across the Urals and put into service again a feat hypothetically comparable to the US dismantling its industrial plants around the Great Lakes region transporting them across the Rockies and putting them back in production.

    Tsarist Russia's industrial capabilities were eclipsed by Imperial Japan let alone Germany.Its Naval Ships for example were assembled in Russia from British or French designs with all critical components boilers etc imported.Even the armor plating was imported IIRC. Japan on the eve of WW1 designed and built its own Dreadnoughts.

    In the Pre Industrial era Tsarist Russia performed well against European threats like Napoleonic France when it was fighting another non Industrial country but its relative strength began to wane as soon as industrialization began to transform societies of its European competitors.

    I do not support Communism the industrialization process was many order of magnitudes bloodier than necessary despite Russia starting from a much more developed base than say Pre Meiji Japan and being self sufficient in all natural resources.Also it would probably not work without the great depression which enabled the USSR to procure massive quantities of capital goods at firesale prices with conditions of transfer of technology that would not be entertained under normal circumstances but the fact remains Stalin industrialized the USSR which is a fact that played a role arguably more important than its size and population in winning against Nazi Germany.

    Replies: @Anatoly Karlin

    , @Annatar
    @Korenchkin

    I agree that the USSR displayed far more willpower and tolerance to sustain losses than the Russian Empire, it was arguably the main advantage of the Stalinist system over the Imperial Russian system in warfare.

  506. @Annatar
    The only reason the USSR did not fold in the summer of 1941 is because it had a lot more manpower to throw away, in the 3rd quarter of 1941 alone the Soviets recruited 6.3 million fresh men, the equivalent of 450 rifle divisions, and than it went on to raise another 1.9 million in the 4th quarter of 1941. In 1941 alone therefore the USSR raised 8.2 million fresh troops to augment it's existing force of 4.9 million meaning it had fielded by the end of 1941 over 13 million men, France could not even hope to field half that number.

    By the beginning of 1942 there were only 7 million soldiers in the military, meaning the Germans had eliminated over 6 million soviet troops from the order of battle in 6 months, I don't know how any army including the french could have taken those losses, the french didn't even have 6 million men to fight with. To give an idea of how extreme those losses are, the Germans lost for the whole duration of the war on the eastern front, 4 million men killed and captured, the soviets lost more men in 1941 alone than the Germans did for the whole war on the eastern front.

    The USSR definitely did not survive because it refused to surrender, it survived because it had the manpower to survive immense losses, soviet troops on the other hand surrendered in massive quantities, for all the talk about the fighting spirit of the Red Army, millions upon millions of red army troops surrendered in 1941 in the biggest mass surrenders in world history.

    Replies: @Korenchkin, @Epigon, @Anatoly Karlin

    To give an idea of how extreme those losses are, the Germans lost for the whole duration of the war on the eastern front, 4 million men killed and captured,

    Nonsense.
    Where did the German forces disappear, then? Where did their manpower evaporate? It would be extremely interesting to take a look at your breakdown of German military strength, recruited, lost on a per-year basis.

    It’s like those people who take German AFV kill and loss claims at face value.

    Or that idiot Krivosheev adding all losses from Soviet reports and claiming 96500 lost Soviet AFVs, which was immediately taken up by those same imbeciles who parroted figures of 26000 Soviet tanks at the start of Barbarossa.
    Imagine their shock when presented with Soviet tank inventory at the end of war and yearly production, Lend-Lease figures, and finding out how ridiculously wrong they are.

    • Replies: @Annatar
    @Epigon

    German official records suggest the military sustained around 2.7 million killed and missing through to January 31 1945 on the eastern front, most scholars estimate further losses of around 600,000 killed and captured in February, March and April at most for 3.3 million overall. The overall figure itself has been criticised by many historians as being between 15 to 20% to low. That’s why I gave a figure of 4 million which is an appropriate upward adjustment of German casualty figures in my opinion and represents a more maximal estimate of German losses.

  507. @melanf
    @melanf

    This is very approximate, but seems mostly correct division of the European peoples by origin (although strangely the unification of the Finns with the peoples of the Northern Urals)

    https://d1softball.net/wp-content/uploads/ktz/map-of-europe-1600-ad-37ipi4w3m0czz8xbf3v668.jpg

    Replies: @Korenchkin, @Epigon, @Thulean Friend

    I’d draw a line somewhere through Anatolia and couple it with Greece and Cyprus label it Greco-Anatolian with the rest being Near Eastern
    Iranians and Greeks are definitely different enough to be separate

    Caucasians could also probably be their own group

  508. @melanf
    @melanf

    This is very approximate, but seems mostly correct division of the European peoples by origin (although strangely the unification of the Finns with the peoples of the Northern Urals)

    https://d1softball.net/wp-content/uploads/ktz/map-of-europe-1600-ad-37ipi4w3m0czz8xbf3v668.jpg

    Replies: @Korenchkin, @Epigon, @Thulean Friend

    This map is fake and gay.

    East Austria and East Germany are Slavic more than they are Germanic, let alone Celto-Germanic.

    There is less Greek/Mediterranean among Serbs than there is Scandinavian.

    How can south Croatia and Herzegovina, where I2a maxes out among Croats, followed by R1a, be any different from Bosnia and Serbia where I2a is most prevalent, followed by R1a?

    Slavonia spoke Serb Shtokavian ekavica and ijekavica as a result of Austrian settlement of Serbs following its reconquest from Ottomans – something noted in census data and works of Reljković, in addition to being called Little Rascia by Hungarians in 15th, 16th century due to Serbs fleeing Ottoman invasion. So how in the world can Slavonia be different from Baranya, Vojvodina?

    • Replies: @melanf
    @Epigon



    East Austria and East Germany are Slavic more than they are Germanic, let alone Celto-Germanic
     
    .

    by Y-DNA?
  509. @Mr. Hack
    @AnonFromTN

    Everything you speak betrays the soul of a janissar - your master's language, culture, history, economy is better than your own. The soviets did a wonderful job in russifying Ukraine, and you're a prime example of the soviet man that they were trying to create, who thought and dreamt in Russian. Too bad for you that it didn't work, and you now have to live in the country of your former adversary - why not move and live in splendid Russia? Sure you might make a few less bucks, but then agiaa you wouldn't feel so much like a Gastarbeiter. eh? :-) Take AK as an example!

    Replies: @AnonFromTN, @anonymous coward

    The soviets did a wonderful job in russifying Ukraine

    The Soviets did the opposite, you dumb fuck. They had to ukrainify huge chunks of the country, because most of it was Russian land populated by Russians after the Turks were chased out.

    “Ukraine” proper is actually two different and unrelated tiny parts of the country.

    You come from Galicia, you have no relation to 90% of the country or people in Ukraine, so shut up and become Polish already.

    https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A3%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B7%D0%B0%D1%86%D0%B8%D1%8F

    • Troll: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @AP
    @anonymous coward


    The Soviets did the opposite.... They had to ukrainify huge chunks of the country,
     
    You continue your pattern of always being wrong. Russian census of 1897 showed that the Russian language was about as common in Kiev governate as it was in Warsaw. So-called "New Russia" was 70% Little Russian-speaking.

    So-called Ukrianianizaton meant that the lightly settled Russian-speaking towns became Ukrainian-speaking as Ukrainian speakers moved in from the villages and were taught literacy in their own language. It was a natural process akin to Prague becoming Czech-speaking as Czech peasants moved in, that was interrupted and reversed by the unnatural Bolsheviks.

    Replies: @anonymous coward

  510. @Dmitry
    @AP

    Nationalities like Serbs and Bosnians are probably descendants of the Ancient Illyrians.

    However, racially/genetically what do you mean by pure Slavs. Poles?

    Genetically, Poles are unrelated to the Balkans races, but also not very related to a lot of Russia from around East from Nizhny Novgorod or North from Rybinsk.
    https://i.imgur.com/5eIO80u.png

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Mikhail

    Nationalities like Serbs and Bosnians are probably descendants of the Ancient Illyrians.

    Piss off a lot of Albanians who dubiously make that claim of themselves. Serbs are Slavs with Slavs being of different blends and percentages of such.

    By “Bosnians”, you probably mean the PC term “Bosniak” describing Slavic Muslims. Bosnians being primarily those of Croat, Muslim Slav and Serb backgrounds in Bosnia.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Mikhail


    Serbs are Slavs with Slavs being of different blends and percentages of such.
     
    Serbs are "Slavs" like 25%-Spanish, Spanish-speaking Guatemalan mestizos are "Spaniards." Epigon showed that there was once a Slavic settler population but it was absorbed by the natives over the few centuries and largely melted into the natives, like the Conquistador settlers of central America (although the latter process started much earlier in settlement, due to dearth of female settlers).

    Replies: @Simpleguest, @Korenchkin

    , @Dmitry
    @Mikhail

    Illyrians were the people of the Balkan region in Ancient History. Ethnogenesis of modern Slavs is the around the sixth century AD. When Slavic tribes conquer areas in the Balkans, then the pre-existing population is subsumed to the dominant group's culture and language.

    For example, if you ask when is the ethnogenesis of the Arabs? It is formed with common language and then religion, in the sixth-seventh century, in the Arabian peninsula, as tribes of the peninsula are united.

    However, quite distant regions like Algeria become Arab, by a mixture of settlers who conquer the area from the Arab lands, and also cultural subsumption of previous nationalities which live in the region to the Arab language and customs.

  511. @Korenchkin
    @Annatar

    The Russian Empire also had a massive manpower advantage yet it folded under much less pressure on the frontlines
    Difference was the willingless to sacrifice lives, infrastructure and resources in order to buy time and wear the enemy down
    Imagine if those encirclements happened under the 1914 Tsarist system, they would've instantly collapsed
    The expectation (from everyone really, not just Germans) was that the USSR would fold just like the Russian Empire did and descend into Civil War, this was what made the difference
    Had the party fled Moscow to catch a boat in Vladivostok and all the soldiers started deserting or joining the enemy (a missed opportunity for the Germans) then no advantage could've saved them
    Just as the French held firm during WW1 in spite of the horrifying opening battles of the war and eventually wore down the Germans

    Something similar happened during the British conquest of India, only on a smaller scale, treachery, technological disatvantage and lack of unity allowed a smaller force to conquer a giant section of Eurasia, in fact Hitler cited Colonial British India as a good system to implement on Eastern Europe after it had been conquered

    I am not defending Communism or actions of Communists here, just pointing out that the refusal to give up despite what seemed at first to be overwhelming odds did make a large difference

    Replies: @Mikhail, @Anatoly Karlin, @Vishnugupta, @Annatar

    The Russian Empire also had a massive manpower advantage yet it folded under much less pressure on the frontlines
    Difference was the willingless to sacrifice lives, infrastructure and resources in order to buy time and wear the enemy down
    Imagine if those encirclements happened under the 1914 Tsarist system, they would’ve instantly collapsed
    The expectation (from everyone really, not just Germans) was that the USSR would fold just like the Russian Empire did and descend into Civil War, this was what made the difference
    Had the party fled Moscow to catch a boat in Vladivostok and all the soldiers started deserting or joining the enemy (a missed opportunity for the Germans) then no advantage could’ve saved them
    Just as the French held firm during WW1 in spite of the horrifying opening battles of the war and eventually wore down the Germans

    Something similar happened during the British conquest of India, only on a smaller scale, treachery, technological disatvantage and lack of unity allowed a smaller force to conquer a giant section of Eurasia, in fact Hitler cited Colonial British India as a good system to implement on Eastern Europe after it had been conquered

    I am not defending Communism or actions of Communists here, just pointing out that the refusal to give up despite what seemed at first to be overwhelming odds did make a large difference

    Sovok like thinking has subconsciously influenced a good number. In the early part of WW I, Russia launched an attack into Germany that proved catastrophic in a way that included wrecking morale. Added to that was the German use of the Bolshes.

    In WW II, the Nazis brutally attacked the USSR without using people like Vlasov in somewhat (stress somewhat) the same manner that the Germans used Lenin in WW I.

    A major difference having to do with launching an attack into another country versus being brutally attacked. In the latter WW II example, many Soviet citizens felt comparatively more desperate to fight the enemy. In WW I, there was more second guessing on the need to take such casualties.

  512. @Korenchkin
    @Annatar

    The Russian Empire also had a massive manpower advantage yet it folded under much less pressure on the frontlines
    Difference was the willingless to sacrifice lives, infrastructure and resources in order to buy time and wear the enemy down
    Imagine if those encirclements happened under the 1914 Tsarist system, they would've instantly collapsed
    The expectation (from everyone really, not just Germans) was that the USSR would fold just like the Russian Empire did and descend into Civil War, this was what made the difference
    Had the party fled Moscow to catch a boat in Vladivostok and all the soldiers started deserting or joining the enemy (a missed opportunity for the Germans) then no advantage could've saved them
    Just as the French held firm during WW1 in spite of the horrifying opening battles of the war and eventually wore down the Germans

    Something similar happened during the British conquest of India, only on a smaller scale, treachery, technological disatvantage and lack of unity allowed a smaller force to conquer a giant section of Eurasia, in fact Hitler cited Colonial British India as a good system to implement on Eastern Europe after it had been conquered

    I am not defending Communism or actions of Communists here, just pointing out that the refusal to give up despite what seemed at first to be overwhelming odds did make a large difference

    Replies: @Mikhail, @Anatoly Karlin, @Vishnugupta, @Annatar

    The Russian Empire also had a massive manpower advantage yet it folded under much less pressure on the frontlines

    Where exactly? It made gains against AH and Turkey, and held the line against Germany after 1915.

    Just as the French held firm during WW1 in spite of the horrifying opening battles of the war and eventually wore down the Germans

    The French mutinies in the wake of the Nivelle Offensive were far more serious than any discipline issues the Russian Empire (i.e., before the February Revolution) had.

    Difference was the willingless to sacrifice lives, infrastructure and resources in order to buy time and wear the enemy down

    True for totalitarian regimes. The Germans were also far more ruthless in WW2, and never broke like the Kaiser’s Army did in late 1918.

    • Agree: AP
  513. @Annatar
    The only reason the USSR did not fold in the summer of 1941 is because it had a lot more manpower to throw away, in the 3rd quarter of 1941 alone the Soviets recruited 6.3 million fresh men, the equivalent of 450 rifle divisions, and than it went on to raise another 1.9 million in the 4th quarter of 1941. In 1941 alone therefore the USSR raised 8.2 million fresh troops to augment it's existing force of 4.9 million meaning it had fielded by the end of 1941 over 13 million men, France could not even hope to field half that number.

    By the beginning of 1942 there were only 7 million soldiers in the military, meaning the Germans had eliminated over 6 million soviet troops from the order of battle in 6 months, I don't know how any army including the french could have taken those losses, the french didn't even have 6 million men to fight with. To give an idea of how extreme those losses are, the Germans lost for the whole duration of the war on the eastern front, 4 million men killed and captured, the soviets lost more men in 1941 alone than the Germans did for the whole war on the eastern front.

    The USSR definitely did not survive because it refused to surrender, it survived because it had the manpower to survive immense losses, soviet troops on the other hand surrendered in massive quantities, for all the talk about the fighting spirit of the Red Army, millions upon millions of red army troops surrendered in 1941 in the biggest mass surrenders in world history.

    Replies: @Korenchkin, @Epigon, @Anatoly Karlin

    While I agree with the demographic arguments, this is stretching things too far.

    The difference of 6M would have included the wounded (whether temporary or permanent), as well as soldiers released back into the workforce (e.g. technical specialists – the USSR was more assiduous about conserving those, perhaps because they had relatively fewer of them than Germany). They are not comparable to Germans who were flat out killed/captured.

    • Replies: @Annatar
    @Anatoly Karlin

    It’s true Soviet losses later in the war, 1942 and onwards were mostly wounded and millions of men were also demobilised after being recruited, however neither of those things were true in 1941. Virtually all of the Soviet losses in 1941 were due to soldiers being killed and captured due to the encirclement battles, it’s only from 1942 onwards that most soviet losses become wounded. In addition, the demobilisation of existing troops to serve as labour was only done in 1942 when the soviet army had reached a size that was deemed sufficient to hold the entire front as well as conduct offensives.

  514. @anonymous coward
    @Mr. Hack


    The soviets did a wonderful job in russifying Ukraine
     
    The Soviets did the opposite, you dumb fuck. They had to ukrainify huge chunks of the country, because most of it was Russian land populated by Russians after the Turks were chased out.

    "Ukraine" proper is actually two different and unrelated tiny parts of the country.

    You come from Galicia, you have no relation to 90% of the country or people in Ukraine, so shut up and become Polish already.

    https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A3%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B7%D0%B0%D1%86%D0%B8%D1%8F

    Replies: @AP

    The Soviets did the opposite…. They had to ukrainify huge chunks of the country,

    You continue your pattern of always being wrong. Russian census of 1897 showed that the Russian language was about as common in Kiev governate as it was in Warsaw. So-called “New Russia” was 70% Little Russian-speaking.

    So-called Ukrianianizaton meant that the lightly settled Russian-speaking towns became Ukrainian-speaking as Ukrainian speakers moved in from the villages and were taught literacy in their own language. It was a natural process akin to Prague becoming Czech-speaking as Czech peasants moved in, that was interrupted and reversed by the unnatural Bolsheviks.

    • Replies: @anonymous coward
    @AP


    So-called “New Russia” was 70% Little Russian-speaking.
     
    "Little Russian-speaking" is not Ukrainian. Hence the Soviet campaign of ukrainization.

    Replies: @AP

  515. @Mikhail
    @Dmitry


    Nationalities like Serbs and Bosnians are probably descendants of the Ancient Illyrians.
     
    Piss off a lot of Albanians who dubiously make that claim of themselves. Serbs are Slavs with Slavs being of different blends and percentages of such.

    By "Bosnians", you probably mean the PC term "Bosniak" describing Slavic Muslims. Bosnians being primarily those of Croat, Muslim Slav and Serb backgrounds in Bosnia.

    Replies: @AP, @Dmitry

    Serbs are Slavs with Slavs being of different blends and percentages of such.

    Serbs are “Slavs” like 25%-Spanish, Spanish-speaking Guatemalan mestizos are “Spaniards.” Epigon showed that there was once a Slavic settler population but it was absorbed by the natives over the few centuries and largely melted into the natives, like the Conquistador settlers of central America (although the latter process started much earlier in settlement, due to dearth of female settlers).

    • Replies: @Simpleguest
    @AP

    In the end, what you think is irrelevant.
    Obviously, Serbs feel Slavic, as other South Slavs, and that's all that matters.

    Replies: @AP, @Korenchkin

    , @Korenchkin
    @AP

    Are Bavarians and Dalslanders not both Germanic despite having different genetics? A much more apt comparison then trans-continental mixtures
    And the Mestizos don't call themselves Spandiards, they say they are Hispanics, just as South Slavs don't call themselves Russians or Poles but still are Slavs

    This is not a larp since the Balkan Natives were fighting and living with the White Serb settlers from the very start of Serbia as a Princedom and later Kingdoms and Empires, as Epigon pointed out

  516. @Korenchkin
    @Annatar

    The Russian Empire also had a massive manpower advantage yet it folded under much less pressure on the frontlines
    Difference was the willingless to sacrifice lives, infrastructure and resources in order to buy time and wear the enemy down
    Imagine if those encirclements happened under the 1914 Tsarist system, they would've instantly collapsed
    The expectation (from everyone really, not just Germans) was that the USSR would fold just like the Russian Empire did and descend into Civil War, this was what made the difference
    Had the party fled Moscow to catch a boat in Vladivostok and all the soldiers started deserting or joining the enemy (a missed opportunity for the Germans) then no advantage could've saved them
    Just as the French held firm during WW1 in spite of the horrifying opening battles of the war and eventually wore down the Germans

    Something similar happened during the British conquest of India, only on a smaller scale, treachery, technological disatvantage and lack of unity allowed a smaller force to conquer a giant section of Eurasia, in fact Hitler cited Colonial British India as a good system to implement on Eastern Europe after it had been conquered

    I am not defending Communism or actions of Communists here, just pointing out that the refusal to give up despite what seemed at first to be overwhelming odds did make a large difference

    Replies: @Mikhail, @Anatoly Karlin, @Vishnugupta, @Annatar

    The USSR vs Nazi Germany war was a war between two industrialized countries.

    German Empire vs Tsarist Russia was a war between the then most industrialized country on the planet vs an agrarian country with a few bright sparks like Sikorsky.(Yes I know it was ‘rapidly industrializing’ from a low base but that industrialization was dependent of foreign capital(The sovereign foreign debt of Tsarist Russia was the highest of any nation Pre WW1) and had many other headwinds which should make one read the rosy alternate history projections of Russia being on course to emerging as a US class industrial super power with more than a few grains of salt)

    The USSR outproduced not just Germany but the Whole of Continental Europe in Tank,Aircraft and Artillery gun production with all critical components(engines etc.) manufactured from raw materials in Russia.This is including the one year gap in which the industrial plants were dismantled transported across the Urals and put into service again a feat hypothetically comparable to the US dismantling its industrial plants around the Great Lakes region transporting them across the Rockies and putting them back in production.

    Tsarist Russia’s industrial capabilities were eclipsed by Imperial Japan let alone Germany.Its Naval Ships for example were assembled in Russia from British or French designs with all critical components boilers etc imported.Even the armor plating was imported IIRC. Japan on the eve of WW1 designed and built its own Dreadnoughts.

    In the Pre Industrial era Tsarist Russia performed well against European threats like Napoleonic France when it was fighting another non Industrial country but its relative strength began to wane as soon as industrialization began to transform societies of its European competitors.

    I do not support Communism the industrialization process was many order of magnitudes bloodier than necessary despite Russia starting from a much more developed base than say Pre Meiji Japan and being self sufficient in all natural resources.Also it would probably not work without the great depression which enabled the USSR to procure massive quantities of capital goods at firesale prices with conditions of transfer of technology that would not be entertained under normal circumstances but the fact remains Stalin industrialized the USSR which is a fact that played a role arguably more important than its size and population in winning against Nazi Germany.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    @Vishnugupta

    The USSR was of course more industrialized vis-a-vis Germany than was the Russian Empire, nobody is denying that, but it would have been more industrialized - and a much more diverse and sophisticated economy - if it hadn't lost a decade in industrial development to the Revolution and not killed/exiled the majority of its top tier human capital.


    The USSR outproduced not just Germany but the Whole of Continental Europe in Tank,Aircraft and Artillery gun production with all critical components(engines etc.) manufactured from raw materials in Russia.
     
    This is incorrect. Germany produced more aircraft overall. USSR out produced in tanks, but spent a much higher of its productive capacities on them. Furthermore, USSR had no need to make investments into U-Boats during the war, nor did it need AA defenses to mitigate strategic bombing, into synthetic fuel production plants, etc.). It also relied on Lend-Lease for many critical inputs such as aviation fuel and electronics.

    Tsarist Russia’s industrial capabilities were eclipsed by Imperial Japan let alone Germany.
     
    While one might cherry pick one example or another to argue that point, the statistics say otherwise:

    As of 1913:
    Per capita level of industrialization: Russia and Japan both estimated at 20% of UK levels in 1900 (Bairoch)
    Iron/Steel production: 4.8M tons in Russia (similar to France), 0.8M tons in Japan.
    Energy consumption: 2.5x higher in Russia
    GDP per capita: "Total Former USSR" about 10% higher than Japan (Maddison)

    Replies: @Vishnugupta

  517. @AP
    @Mikhail


    Serbs are Slavs with Slavs being of different blends and percentages of such.
     
    Serbs are "Slavs" like 25%-Spanish, Spanish-speaking Guatemalan mestizos are "Spaniards." Epigon showed that there was once a Slavic settler population but it was absorbed by the natives over the few centuries and largely melted into the natives, like the Conquistador settlers of central America (although the latter process started much earlier in settlement, due to dearth of female settlers).

    Replies: @Simpleguest, @Korenchkin

    In the end, what you think is irrelevant.
    Obviously, Serbs feel Slavic, as other South Slavs, and that’s all that matters.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Simpleguest

    Sorry, postmodernism isn't my thing. By your logic, if some Guatemalan Mestizo "feels" that he is a Spaniard, he is one and that's all that matters. Nope.

    Replies: @Simpleguest

    , @Korenchkin
    @Simpleguest

    It isn't just a feeling
    We speak a Slavic language and use a version of the Cyrillic Alphabet (designed for Slavic langauges and originates from South Slavs incidentally), in many cases our language is closer to the older Slavic pronounciations then languages like Polish or Russian
    We are also Eastern Orthodox Christians which is a majority Slavic branch of Christianity
    There is a history of Serbs who fled the Ottomans settling in Russian-Polish borderlands, theres even a place called New Serbia in the middle of Ukraine, though I think the name fell out of use
    Serbia and other South Slavs were also part of the Slavophile circlejerk in the 19th Century which resulted in the disaterous Pan-Slavic project of Yugoslavia

    Hell the Black Hand which killed Franz Ferdinand was a Pan-Slavic organization, based in Serbia (though supported by British Agents)

    Replies: @AP, @Simpleguest

  518. @Vishnugupta
    @Korenchkin

    The USSR vs Nazi Germany war was a war between two industrialized countries.

    German Empire vs Tsarist Russia was a war between the then most industrialized country on the planet vs an agrarian country with a few bright sparks like Sikorsky.(Yes I know it was 'rapidly industrializing' from a low base but that industrialization was dependent of foreign capital(The sovereign foreign debt of Tsarist Russia was the highest of any nation Pre WW1) and had many other headwinds which should make one read the rosy alternate history projections of Russia being on course to emerging as a US class industrial super power with more than a few grains of salt)

    The USSR outproduced not just Germany but the Whole of Continental Europe in Tank,Aircraft and Artillery gun production with all critical components(engines etc.) manufactured from raw materials in Russia.This is including the one year gap in which the industrial plants were dismantled transported across the Urals and put into service again a feat hypothetically comparable to the US dismantling its industrial plants around the Great Lakes region transporting them across the Rockies and putting them back in production.

    Tsarist Russia's industrial capabilities were eclipsed by Imperial Japan let alone Germany.Its Naval Ships for example were assembled in Russia from British or French designs with all critical components boilers etc imported.Even the armor plating was imported IIRC. Japan on the eve of WW1 designed and built its own Dreadnoughts.

    In the Pre Industrial era Tsarist Russia performed well against European threats like Napoleonic France when it was fighting another non Industrial country but its relative strength began to wane as soon as industrialization began to transform societies of its European competitors.

    I do not support Communism the industrialization process was many order of magnitudes bloodier than necessary despite Russia starting from a much more developed base than say Pre Meiji Japan and being self sufficient in all natural resources.Also it would probably not work without the great depression which enabled the USSR to procure massive quantities of capital goods at firesale prices with conditions of transfer of technology that would not be entertained under normal circumstances but the fact remains Stalin industrialized the USSR which is a fact that played a role arguably more important than its size and population in winning against Nazi Germany.

    Replies: @Anatoly Karlin

    The USSR was of course more industrialized vis-a-vis Germany than was the Russian Empire, nobody is denying that, but it would have been more industrialized – and a much more diverse and sophisticated economy – if it hadn’t lost a decade in industrial development to the Revolution and not killed/exiled the majority of its top tier human capital.

    The USSR outproduced not just Germany but the Whole of Continental Europe in Tank,Aircraft and Artillery gun production with all critical components(engines etc.) manufactured from raw materials in Russia.

    This is incorrect. Germany produced more aircraft overall. USSR out produced in tanks, but spent a much higher of its productive capacities on them. Furthermore, USSR had no need to make investments into U-Boats during the war, nor did it need AA defenses to mitigate strategic bombing, into synthetic fuel production plants, etc.). It also relied on Lend-Lease for many critical inputs such as aviation fuel and electronics.

    Tsarist Russia’s industrial capabilities were eclipsed by Imperial Japan let alone Germany.

    While one might cherry pick one example or another to argue that point, the statistics say otherwise:

    As of 1913:
    Per capita level of industrialization: Russia and Japan both estimated at 20% of UK levels in 1900 (Bairoch)
    Iron/Steel production: 4.8M tons in Russia (similar to France), 0.8M tons in Japan.
    Energy consumption: 2.5x higher in Russia
    GDP per capita: “Total Former USSR” about 10% higher than Japan (Maddison)

    • Replies: @Vishnugupta
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Well a Free Market Industrialized Economy is from an economic efficiency standpoint superior to a Fascist Industrialized Economy which is in turn superior to a command and control industrialized economy however any industrialized economy is incomparably superior to a non Industrialized economy doesn't matter how free market.The social and economic conditions under which a free market industrialized economy emerges naturally is extremely rare.

    It is not immediately clear if an industrialized free market economy was about to emerge in a 20-25 year time frame.The government despite the presence of competent bureaucrats from time to time like Stolypin and White was mostly incompetent,the czar and the nobility reluctant to forego the very large parasitic rents they extracted from the state,proportionally there were very few people like Sikorsky and it is not immediately clear whether Sikorsky would emerge as Russia's Boeing (Heck even Russia's Sikorsky USA) given the penchant of the state crowding out private investment in strategic areas,foreign import lobbies often consisting of nobles and other rent seeking elites.

    Then there is the question of the low national savings rate and the dependence on foreign borrowings which is clearly not sustainable and the very poor terms of trade on offer to Russia,its biggest export was food grains to Europe.

    Continental Europe was protectionist as was the US.The British Empire though nominally free trade(It allowed Japan and Germany market access) would require all weather ports near industrial centers to service which Russia did not /does not have.

    Then there was disproportionate numbers of Poles,Jews,Volga Germans and other non Slavic minorities whose interest did not always coincide with that of the Russian state in positions of power.

    Then there was the Inter war years stagnation and great depression which would hinder essential foreign finance and reduce realization of Russian commodity exports.

    These are just some of the factors which makes me slightly skeptical of Russia Emerging with an industrial base comparable to the USSR in a period of 20 years in an alternate history scenario.

    " This is incorrect. Germany produced more aircraft overall..."

    Yes my mistake though the difference was relatively minor compared to Tank Production(Including Self Propelled Guns) 2X+ and Artillery 3X +

    https://www.secondworldwarhistory.com/world-war-2-statistics.php

    Yes Germans had to divert resources to their Navy and AA defence etc.And yes a fascist industrialized economy is more efficient than a command and control industrialized economy in utilization of its resources as previously mentioned.

    "While one might cherry pick one example or another to argue that point, the statistics say otherwise:"

    Well crude industrial output which such statistics typically measure is one facet.Both Japan and Russia are supposed to be at 20% UK levels but Japanese industry was internationally competitive able to displace European manufacturers in the British Empire in Asia,Competing and winning against entrenched British manufacturers in selling textile machinery know how to Platts,UK(How Toyota got its start) etc. Russia in this period has very little to compare with the Zaibatsu.

    If one is to talk about major weapons the most impressive thing Tsarist Russia produced in WW1 was arguably the Sirkosky Ilya Muromets bomber which was powered by imported British Engines i.e. Sunbeam Crusader V8(Then as now the most critical and difficult to manufacture component of any aircraft)

    The most impressive thing Japan produced arguably was the Battleship Settsu which was a Dreadnought class battleship built from raw materials in Japan.

    Therefore it wouldn't be to inaccurate to state that Japan had overall superior industrial capabilities in this era.

  519. @Simpleguest
    @AP

    In the end, what you think is irrelevant.
    Obviously, Serbs feel Slavic, as other South Slavs, and that's all that matters.

    Replies: @AP, @Korenchkin

    Sorry, postmodernism isn’t my thing. By your logic, if some Guatemalan Mestizo “feels” that he is a Spaniard, he is one and that’s all that matters. Nope.

    • Replies: @Simpleguest
    @AP

    Correct analogy would be "feels Hispanic".
    Anyway, what you think or what's "your thing" is completely irrelevant under this sun.

  520. @Epigon
    @AP

    How do you find the Slavic content in an individual looking at Y-DNA research? Would that mean that R1a Indians are more Slavic than Carpathian and west Rus' I2a?

    There is a thorough genetical research underway - Serb DNA Project. https://dnk.poreklo.rs/DNK-projekat/
    It laid to rest Turk nonsense peddled by some, while discovering even Saxon (miners, burghers), Norman (Zeta, Dyrrachion), Celtic (4th, 3rd century BC arrival) and Gothic (migration) descent among modern Serbs. Peculiarities like I1 (Scandinavian - 10.5%) presence rivaling E1b (Balkan - 13.8%) etc.

    I2a is the most prevalent single haplogroup among Serbs according to data gathered until now 33%-35% - and this I2a subgroup is apparently younger than I2a in west Ukraine and Carpathians, AND less diverse in Balkans - implying a founder effect and migration to the Balkans from their original homeland - being 2300-2500 years old.

    Serbs west of Drina have more R1a and less I2a. The best part is that Serbs in Serbia are genetically closer to Croats than to Serbs of Montenegro, not to mention Serbs of Croatia to Croats.
    There is an explanation - Serby of Lusatia have the highest R1a % in the world (60+%), and the original Serb settlement and statehood in 9th century is mostly outside of present-day Serbia. Beyond doubt, Serby of Germany and original Balkan Serbs have common ancestors, but a lot has happened in the last 1300 years.
    There are several neighboruing Slavic tribes/groups distinct from Serbs - Moravians, Timoscians, Dragovitians - who were dominant on the territory of present day Serbia initially.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fe/Serbien_9.Jhd.jpg

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/67/Balkans_in_9th_century.jpg

    https://enacademic.com/pictures/enwiki/66/Balkans950.png

    Contemporary Frankish (Annales describing the resolution of Pannonian revolt - Liudevit fled over river Sava to Serbs who hold most of Dalmatia) and Byzantine (everything south of Cetina - Serbs - Pagania, Travunia, Zachlumia, Diocleia) chronicles confirm this - so maps such as these combined with Serb architectural remains in Ston (St.Michael's church) and west Herzegovina (church ruins and inscriptions containing Nemanjić donours) prove it beyond doubt. Croats have a duty to sperg out, deny primary sources and start ranting.


    There is actually a good explanation for significantly lower E1b presence among Serbs than among neighbouring Bulgarians - medieval Serb laws explicitly forbade intermarrying of Serbs and non-Serb Balkanites, starting with code of laws by king Milutin and going all the way to Tzar Dušan. Only after Ottoman invasion and subsequent migrations would they intermarry, assimilate to form modern Serb nation.


    When it comes to genetic diversity within a single "nation", Muslim Bosniaks have no peers. Among Bosniaks of Novi Pazar/Sanjak Area, R1a is practically non-existant, while it is the dominant haplogroup in west Bosnia Bosniaks, 30+%.

    Replies: @AP

    There is actually a good explanation for significantly lower E1b presence among Serbs than among neighbouring Bulgarians – medieval Serb laws explicitly forbade intermarrying of Serbs and non-Serb Balkanites, starting with code of laws by king Milutin and going all the way to Tzar Dušan. Only after Ottoman invasion and subsequent migrations would they intermarry, assimilate to form modern Serb nation.

    If correct, this suggests that modern “Serbs” can essentially be characterized as Serb-speaking Balkanoids LARPing as medieval Serbs, although isolated pockets of actual Serbs still exist. So modern Serbs celebrating medieval Serbs as their heroes is analogous to some Guatemalan Mestizos celebrating the exploits of Cortes, the literature of Cervantes, as their own.

    Fascinating. Of course Eastern Slavs can be no less ridiculous. Ukrainian and Russian Slavs fight over whether the Scandinavian Rus overlords who enslaved Slavs were Ukrainian or Russian.

    • Replies: @Brutis
    @AP

    Romanian Getae are identified with Greek Zhat or Panjabi Jatt.

    Balkan people are different and it honestly doesn't matter.

    The Warrior Spirit is in us all we can choose to reject or deny it.

    People concerned about demographics should fight to regain control over their lands and women.

    We know this War between Africa and Arya will always end in our favor so we remain in ever bliss, and high spirits.

    Serbs also have a proud history whether Slav or not.

    A small country able to cause great calamity and a great war is indeed remarkable!

    , @melanf
    @AP


    Ukrainian and Russian Slavs fight over whether the Scandinavian Rus overlords who enslaved Slavs were Ukrainian or Russian.
     
    A curious example of a battle with windmills. Perhaps there are marginal freaks who argue over the Internet "whether the Scandinavian Rus were Ukrainian or Russian", but I personally have never seen such discussions. Scandinavian origin Rurikids in the scientific community has never been seriously challenged-neither in the pre-revolutionary, nor in the Soviet or post-Soviet times (of course there have always been marginals with special views, but they are marginals).

    On the other hand, you are repeating here like a parrot version of the ethnic Scandinavian elite who ruled the Slavic slaves - quite obvious nonsense (as you can learn from the works of both Russian and Scandinavian historians dealing with this topic). That is your own views - the same nonsense as statements that Rurik was the Ukrainian.

    Replies: @AP

  521. @AnonFromTN
    @Mr. Hack

    Maybe the difference isn’t clear for the uninitiated. “Being involved” in scientific research and actually doing it at the level that produces meaningful results are two different things. It’s roughly like between “being involved” in movie industry (say, as a cleaner) and starring in a movie. Say, if you are a skilled Formula 1 driver, would you settle for driving a donkey?

    At the moment Russian biomedical research is nowhere near the level of top places. There are many high-class labs in the US, a few in Europe, China, Japan, Singapore, Taiwan, etc. The US used to produce ~80% of high quality world research in the 1990-s. Now its share is down to 35-40%, but it is still large. Besides, like in every place full of bottom-feeders, there would be lots of envy and ill will in the Russian Academy of Sciences: I have more good papers and citations than most Academy members in these areas. In biomedical research Russia as a country is somewhere in the 30-s in the world (before you ask, Ukraine is in the 80-s or 90-s).

    It might be hard to comprehend for people who don’t give a hoot about their job, but for me the quality of my work is paramount. Both geography and pay are secondary considerations. I get out of TN (and the US) for vacations, and I don’t have time to spend what they pay me, anyway. If the Congress keeps doing its level best to kill American science, I’ll have to move somewhere like China or Singapore. If Russian government comes up with a viable program of developing basic biomedical science, I’d consider Russia, too.

    BTW, the plan in the new Ukrainian budget is to starve science even further. About 244 billion hryvnas are allocated for the army and police, and about 2 billion (less than 1% of that) for science.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    All that you’re doing here is emphasizing the fact that Russia is a third world power incapable of creating an environment for its own citizens to prosper either intellectually, professionally or financially. Why sit here day after day, 24/7, and extoll the virtues of Russian civilization, if you’ve actually chosen to run away from it and live somewhere else, better? Come to think if , you’re actually a worse creature than the janissars that I often compare you with – they were forced into their servile roles, whereas you freely chose a similar fate. 🙁

    Why not stay in Russia (like Anatoly Karlin) and work to make it a better country?

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Mr. Hack

    Correction:


    Come to think of it, you’re actually a worse creature than the janissars that I often compare you with – they were forced into their servile roles, whereas you freely chose a similar fate. 🙁
     
    I shouldn't write anything before I've had my first cup of coffee!
    , @AnonFromTN
    @Mr. Hack

    You can’t explain the meaning of colors to someone who is voluntarily blind. I wash my hands off you. You are welcome to stew in your own delusions. But the reality is a bitch: nobody’s delusions change it.

    Replies: @anonymous coward

  522. @Mr. Hack
    @AnonFromTN

    All that you're doing here is emphasizing the fact that Russia is a third world power incapable of creating an environment for its own citizens to prosper either intellectually, professionally or financially. Why sit here day after day, 24/7, and extoll the virtues of Russian civilization, if you've actually chosen to run away from it and live somewhere else, better? Come to think if , you're actually a worse creature than the janissars that I often compare you with - they were forced into their servile roles, whereas you freely chose a similar fate. :-(

    Why not stay in Russia (like Anatoly Karlin) and work to make it a better country?

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @AnonFromTN

    Correction:

    Come to think of it, you’re actually a worse creature than the janissars that I often compare you with – they were forced into their servile roles, whereas you freely chose a similar fate. 🙁

    I shouldn’t write anything before I’ve had my first cup of coffee!

  523. Where exactly? It made gains against AH and Turkey, and held the line against Germany after 1915.

    I’m not convinced the Tsarist army would’ve “held the line” in 1916 had Hindenburg and Ludendorff run OHL that year rather than Falkenhayn with his ill-advised Verdun adventure.

    Though a German offensive in the east in 1916 would not have met a disintegrating army, unlike the case with the historical offensive into the Baltic in 1917 (after dispatching the Kerensky “Offensive”).

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    @Thorfinnsson

    Possibly - but it would have been harder to do in 1916 than a year earlier.

    Shell production:

    https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/oldadmiral/1436531/38429/38429_original.jpg

    (WW2 figures for comparison):

    https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/oldadmiral/1436531/38366/38366_original.jpg

  524. @AP
    @Mikhail


    Serbs are Slavs with Slavs being of different blends and percentages of such.
     
    Serbs are "Slavs" like 25%-Spanish, Spanish-speaking Guatemalan mestizos are "Spaniards." Epigon showed that there was once a Slavic settler population but it was absorbed by the natives over the few centuries and largely melted into the natives, like the Conquistador settlers of central America (although the latter process started much earlier in settlement, due to dearth of female settlers).

    Replies: @Simpleguest, @Korenchkin

    Are Bavarians and Dalslanders not both Germanic despite having different genetics? A much more apt comparison then trans-continental mixtures
    And the Mestizos don’t call themselves Spandiards, they say they are Hispanics, just as South Slavs don’t call themselves Russians or Poles but still are Slavs

    This is not a larp since the Balkan Natives were fighting and living with the White Serb settlers from the very start of Serbia as a Princedom and later Kingdoms and Empires, as Epigon pointed out

  525. @Thorfinnsson


    Where exactly? It made gains against AH and Turkey, and held the line against Germany after 1915.
     
    I'm not convinced the Tsarist army would've "held the line" in 1916 had Hindenburg and Ludendorff run OHL that year rather than Falkenhayn with his ill-advised Verdun adventure.

    Though a German offensive in the east in 1916 would not have met a disintegrating army, unlike the case with the historical offensive into the Baltic in 1917 (after dispatching the Kerensky "Offensive").

    Replies: @Anatoly Karlin

    Possibly – but it would have been harder to do in 1916 than a year earlier.

    Shell production:

    (WW2 figures for comparison):

  526. @Anatoly Karlin
    @Vishnugupta

    The USSR was of course more industrialized vis-a-vis Germany than was the Russian Empire, nobody is denying that, but it would have been more industrialized - and a much more diverse and sophisticated economy - if it hadn't lost a decade in industrial development to the Revolution and not killed/exiled the majority of its top tier human capital.


    The USSR outproduced not just Germany but the Whole of Continental Europe in Tank,Aircraft and Artillery gun production with all critical components(engines etc.) manufactured from raw materials in Russia.
     
    This is incorrect. Germany produced more aircraft overall. USSR out produced in tanks, but spent a much higher of its productive capacities on them. Furthermore, USSR had no need to make investments into U-Boats during the war, nor did it need AA defenses to mitigate strategic bombing, into synthetic fuel production plants, etc.). It also relied on Lend-Lease for many critical inputs such as aviation fuel and electronics.

    Tsarist Russia’s industrial capabilities were eclipsed by Imperial Japan let alone Germany.
     
    While one might cherry pick one example or another to argue that point, the statistics say otherwise:

    As of 1913:
    Per capita level of industrialization: Russia and Japan both estimated at 20% of UK levels in 1900 (Bairoch)
    Iron/Steel production: 4.8M tons in Russia (similar to France), 0.8M tons in Japan.
    Energy consumption: 2.5x higher in Russia
    GDP per capita: "Total Former USSR" about 10% higher than Japan (Maddison)

    Replies: @Vishnugupta

    Well a Free Market Industrialized Economy is from an economic efficiency standpoint superior to a Fascist Industrialized Economy which is in turn superior to a command and control industrialized economy however any industrialized economy is incomparably superior to a non Industrialized economy doesn’t matter how free market.The social and economic conditions under which a free market industrialized economy emerges naturally is extremely rare.

    It is not immediately clear if an industrialized free market economy was about to emerge in a 20-25 year time frame.The government despite the presence of competent bureaucrats from time to time like Stolypin and White was mostly incompetent,the czar and the nobility reluctant to forego the very large parasitic rents they extracted from the state,proportionally there were very few people like Sikorsky and it is not immediately clear whether Sikorsky would emerge as Russia’s Boeing (Heck even Russia’s Sikorsky USA) given the penchant of the state crowding out private investment in strategic areas,foreign import lobbies often consisting of nobles and other rent seeking elites.

    Then there is the question of the low national savings rate and the dependence on foreign borrowings which is clearly not sustainable and the very poor terms of trade on offer to Russia,its biggest export was food grains to Europe.

    Continental Europe was protectionist as was the US.The British Empire though nominally free trade(It allowed Japan and Germany market access) would require all weather ports near industrial centers to service which Russia did not /does not have.

    Then there was disproportionate numbers of Poles,Jews,Volga Germans and other non Slavic minorities whose interest did not always coincide with that of the Russian state in positions of power.

    Then there was the Inter war years stagnation and great depression which would hinder essential foreign finance and reduce realization of Russian commodity exports.

    These are just some of the factors which makes me slightly skeptical of Russia Emerging with an industrial base comparable to the USSR in a period of 20 years in an alternate history scenario.

    ” This is incorrect. Germany produced more aircraft overall…”

    Yes my mistake though the difference was relatively minor compared to Tank Production(Including Self Propelled Guns) 2X+ and Artillery 3X +

    https://www.secondworldwarhistory.com/world-war-2-statistics.php

    Yes Germans had to divert resources to their Navy and AA defence etc.And yes a fascist industrialized economy is more efficient than a command and control industrialized economy in utilization of its resources as previously mentioned.

    “While one might cherry pick one example or another to argue that point, the statistics say otherwise:”

    Well crude industrial output which such statistics typically measure is one facet.Both Japan and Russia are supposed to be at 20% UK levels but Japanese industry was internationally competitive able to displace European manufacturers in the British Empire in Asia,Competing and winning against entrenched British manufacturers in selling textile machinery know how to Platts,UK(How Toyota got its start) etc. Russia in this period has very little to compare with the Zaibatsu.

    If one is to talk about major weapons the most impressive thing Tsarist Russia produced in WW1 was arguably the Sirkosky Ilya Muromets bomber which was powered by imported British Engines i.e. Sunbeam Crusader V8(Then as now the most critical and difficult to manufacture component of any aircraft)

    The most impressive thing Japan produced arguably was the Battleship Settsu which was a Dreadnought class battleship built from raw materials in Japan.

    Therefore it wouldn’t be to inaccurate to state that Japan had overall superior industrial capabilities in this era.

  527. @German_reader
    @Dmitry

    What's your point? None of this changes the fact that British Protestants (and to a lesser extent other Northwest European Protestant groups) were the dominant group shaping the US in the first 200 years of the polity.
    You wouldn't call Arabs "core Israelis" either. Calling Amerindians "core Americans" is even sillier.

    Replies: @Kent Nationalist, @Dmitry

    If you want to change definition of word “core”, to mean “dominant group”. I talked about “core American”, not “dominant American”.

    Jewish conspiracy theory believes that Jews were dominant in USSR, or modern Russia/Ukraine. But such dominance as believed by conspiracy, does not imply that Jews are not foreigners or somewhat recent immigrants to Russia, without ancient native roots.

    In the case of America, if you read Locke’s writing, Indians are used precisely to explain how it would be possible to have property rights. (Indians were “gold standard” for how you could attain property rights).

    So even in an abstract sense, Indians were viewed as standard to compare to for Englishmen settling the American continent.
    https://www.constitution.org/jl/2ndtr05.htm

    wouldn’t call Arabs “core Israelis” either. Calling Amerindians “core Americans”

    Core Israelis are obviously brown skin Middle Eastern Jew, which would have both genetic and cultural connection to the ancient history of the region. It’s people who can say their ancestors were on the land as long as historical memory.

    Do you think racially Russian, Israeli politician Anastasia Michaeli is a core Israeli? People who need sun cream in the region and have no genetic connection to Middle East, are not core, even if they are wealthy and politically dominant.

    Melanin content shows this is not any historical core of a Middle Eastern region, even if a family have political or economic power.

    That doesn’t imply recent settlers and immigrants are not dominant or elite in the lands. For example, Aryans who carried Sanskrit, as well as their gods, to Ancient India, were for many centuries an elite compared to the Dravidians, and institutionalized this for millenia into a caste system.

    And, if we agree with Locke, it also does not have any implication for property rights in land settled more recently.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Dmitry

    "Core population" in my usage is the group without which a polity would be something radically different.
    Russia contains many ethnic and religious minorities, but without (nominally orthodox) Great Russians it wouldn't be Russia.
    Israel contains a large non-Jewish minority, but it was explicitly set up as a Jewish nation state, without Jews Israel wouldn't exist (I don't comment on internal distinctions between different kinds of Jews who in any case seem to be on the way to mixing into a common identity in Israel).

    Similarly, the USA was once implicitly defined by Northwest European, mostly British Protestants (especially of the non-conformist kind) who founded the USA, set up its institutions (in a line of tradition with earlier developments in Britain) and expanded its territory. Whatever other groups may have contributed, without British Protestants the USA would never have come into being and something very different would have existed in North America.
    So they undoubtedly were the "core population" of the US, to whose mores others were expected to assimilate. Unfortunately mass immigration and the idiotic proposition nation idea has substantially eroded this status of Anglo-Saxon Protestants in the US, but it was a reality for long stretches of American history.
    I don't see why this should even be controversial...your usage of "core" to refer to marginal Amerindian natives strikes me as rather eccentric.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Hail

  528. @Mr. Hack
    @AnonFromTN

    All that you're doing here is emphasizing the fact that Russia is a third world power incapable of creating an environment for its own citizens to prosper either intellectually, professionally or financially. Why sit here day after day, 24/7, and extoll the virtues of Russian civilization, if you've actually chosen to run away from it and live somewhere else, better? Come to think if , you're actually a worse creature than the janissars that I often compare you with - they were forced into their servile roles, whereas you freely chose a similar fate. :-(

    Why not stay in Russia (like Anatoly Karlin) and work to make it a better country?

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @AnonFromTN

    You can’t explain the meaning of colors to someone who is voluntarily blind. I wash my hands off you. You are welcome to stew in your own delusions. But the reality is a bitch: nobody’s delusions change it.

    • Replies: @anonymous coward
    @AnonFromTN

    IIRC he's an American who is a third-generation immigrant from some Austro-Hungarian shithole country.

    He's just LARPing as a Ukrainian; you can't talk sense to infantile people who are just having fun and playing pretend.

    It's like giving grief about Vikings not wearing horned helmets and riding bears into battle to some Viking pagan LARPer.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

  529. @AP
    @anonymous coward


    The Soviets did the opposite.... They had to ukrainify huge chunks of the country,
     
    You continue your pattern of always being wrong. Russian census of 1897 showed that the Russian language was about as common in Kiev governate as it was in Warsaw. So-called "New Russia" was 70% Little Russian-speaking.

    So-called Ukrianianizaton meant that the lightly settled Russian-speaking towns became Ukrainian-speaking as Ukrainian speakers moved in from the villages and were taught literacy in their own language. It was a natural process akin to Prague becoming Czech-speaking as Czech peasants moved in, that was interrupted and reversed by the unnatural Bolsheviks.

    Replies: @anonymous coward

    So-called “New Russia” was 70% Little Russian-speaking.

    “Little Russian-speaking” is not Ukrainian. Hence the Soviet campaign of ukrainization.

    • Replies: @AP
    @anonymous coward

    Your pattern of always being wrong continues. "Little Russian" was the term for the Ukrainian language. So the first significant example of Ukrainian literature, Aneida by Kotlyarevski, was called Little Russian:

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/38/Eneida_Osipov_Kotlayrevsky.jpg/1280px-Eneida_Osipov_Kotlayrevsky.jpg

    So according to the 1897 census, Kiev guberniya was 79% Ukrainian (Little Russian) speaking, 12% Yiddish speaking, 6% Russian speaking, and 2% Polish speaking.

    The Kharkov guberniya was 81% Ukrainian speaking and 18% Russian speaking.

    The Kherson guberniya (which consisted of southern Ukraine, including Odessa but not Crimea) was 53.5% Ukrainian-speaking, 21% Russian-speaking, 12% Yiddish-speaking, 5.5% Romanian-speaking, 4.5% German-speaking, 1% Polish-speaking.

    The Poltava guberniya was the purest Ukrainian guberniya (the western ones had many Poles and Jews, the southern ones and Kharkiv had many Russians). It was 93% Ukrainian-speaking, 4% Yiddish-speaking and 3% Russian-speaking. It is no coincidence that the Ukrainian literary language is based on the Little Russian speech of Poltava.

    Replies: @anonymous coward, @Gerard1234

  530. @Mikhail
    @Dmitry


    Nationalities like Serbs and Bosnians are probably descendants of the Ancient Illyrians.
     
    Piss off a lot of Albanians who dubiously make that claim of themselves. Serbs are Slavs with Slavs being of different blends and percentages of such.

    By "Bosnians", you probably mean the PC term "Bosniak" describing Slavic Muslims. Bosnians being primarily those of Croat, Muslim Slav and Serb backgrounds in Bosnia.

    Replies: @AP, @Dmitry

    Illyrians were the people of the Balkan region in Ancient History. Ethnogenesis of modern Slavs is the around the sixth century AD. When Slavic tribes conquer areas in the Balkans, then the pre-existing population is subsumed to the dominant group’s culture and language.

    For example, if you ask when is the ethnogenesis of the Arabs? It is formed with common language and then religion, in the sixth-seventh century, in the Arabian peninsula, as tribes of the peninsula are united.

    However, quite distant regions like Algeria become Arab, by a mixture of settlers who conquer the area from the Arab lands, and also cultural subsumption of previous nationalities which live in the region to the Arab language and customs.

  531. @AnonFromTN
    @Mr. Hack

    You can’t explain the meaning of colors to someone who is voluntarily blind. I wash my hands off you. You are welcome to stew in your own delusions. But the reality is a bitch: nobody’s delusions change it.

    Replies: @anonymous coward

    IIRC he’s an American who is a third-generation immigrant from some Austro-Hungarian shithole country.

    He’s just LARPing as a Ukrainian; you can’t talk sense to infantile people who are just having fun and playing pretend.

    It’s like giving grief about Vikings not wearing horned helmets and riding bears into battle to some Viking pagan LARPer.

    • LOL: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    @anonymous coward

    That figures. The things that personage writes about Ukraine could not be written by anyone who lived in Ukraine at least a few months (not in lunatic asylum). That same applies to the AP here, although AP appears to be less arrogant, which suggest a bit more contact with real Ukraine.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  532. German_reader says:
    @Dmitry
    @German_reader

    If you want to change definition of word "core", to mean "dominant group". I talked about "core American", not "dominant American".

    Jewish conspiracy theory believes that Jews were dominant in USSR, or modern Russia/Ukraine. But such dominance as believed by conspiracy, does not imply that Jews are not foreigners or somewhat recent immigrants to Russia, without ancient native roots.

    -

    In the case of America, if you read Locke's writing, Indians are used precisely to explain how it would be possible to have property rights. (Indians were "gold standard" for how you could attain property rights).

    So even in an abstract sense, Indians were viewed as standard to compare to for Englishmen settling the American continent.
    https://www.constitution.org/jl/2ndtr05.htm


    wouldn’t call Arabs “core Israelis” either. Calling Amerindians “core Americans”

     

    Core Israelis are obviously brown skin Middle Eastern Jew, which would have both genetic and cultural connection to the ancient history of the region. It's people who can say their ancestors were on the land as long as historical memory.

    Do you think racially Russian, Israeli politician Anastasia Michaeli is a core Israeli? People who need sun cream in the region and have no genetic connection to Middle East, are not core, even if they are wealthy and politically dominant.

    Melanin content shows this is not any historical core of a Middle Eastern region, even if a family have political or economic power.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGQ1O3WFhRI

    That doesn't imply recent settlers and immigrants are not dominant or elite in the lands. For example, Aryans who carried Sanskrit, as well as their gods, to Ancient India, were for many centuries an elite compared to the Dravidians, and institutionalized this for millenia into a caste system.

    And, if we agree with Locke, it also does not have any implication for property rights in land settled more recently.

    Replies: @German_reader

    “Core population” in my usage is the group without which a polity would be something radically different.
    Russia contains many ethnic and religious minorities, but without (nominally orthodox) Great Russians it wouldn’t be Russia.
    Israel contains a large non-Jewish minority, but it was explicitly set up as a Jewish nation state, without Jews Israel wouldn’t exist (I don’t comment on internal distinctions between different kinds of Jews who in any case seem to be on the way to mixing into a common identity in Israel).

    Similarly, the USA was once implicitly defined by Northwest European, mostly British Protestants (especially of the non-conformist kind) who founded the USA, set up its institutions (in a line of tradition with earlier developments in Britain) and expanded its territory. Whatever other groups may have contributed, without British Protestants the USA would never have come into being and something very different would have existed in North America.
    So they undoubtedly were the “core population” of the US, to whose mores others were expected to assimilate. Unfortunately mass immigration and the idiotic proposition nation idea has substantially eroded this status of Anglo-Saxon Protestants in the US, but it was a reality for long stretches of American history.
    I don’t see why this should even be controversial…your usage of “core” to refer to marginal Amerindian natives strikes me as rather eccentric.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @German_reader

    Well searching for "core population", it seems to just find something about ethnogenesis in the Philippines.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Models_of_migration_to_the_Philippines#Core_Population_Theory

    However, if you interpret this word to mean "dominant population" and I to mean "people with roots in the land", then is not disagreement, just ambiguity in the phrase.

    Obviously, both answers are trivial and uninteresting. Politically and culturally dominant group in the "polity" known as "United States", are anglosaxons. But historically rooted group to America are the native races.

    If you recall that Houston has the same latitude as New Delhi in India. And that even White House and Capital Hill, in Washington DC, has the same latitude as Palermo Sicily. You can see how non-adapted - or recent in human history terms - the dominant races are still to much of American land.

    Historically rooted (as opposed to transient) population in Houston will eventually evolve the same skin colour as the New Delhi Indians, who share their latitude.

    Replies: @German_reader

    , @Hail
    @German_reader


    the USA was once implicitly defined by Northwest European, mostly British Protestants (especially of the non-conformist kind) who founded the USA, set up its institutions (in a line of tradition with earlier developments in Britain) and expanded its territory. [...] So they undoubtedly were the “core population” of the US, to whose mores others were expected to assimilate. Unfortunately mass immigration and the idiotic proposition nation idea has substantially eroded this status of Anglo-Saxon Protestants in the US, but it was a reality for long stretches of American history.
     
    The US core population is still NW-European Protestant. That hasn't changed.

    What has changed is we lost leadership within the state, which is now run by -- well, look at the time! I think I should stop there.
  533. @anonymous coward
    @AnonFromTN

    IIRC he's an American who is a third-generation immigrant from some Austro-Hungarian shithole country.

    He's just LARPing as a Ukrainian; you can't talk sense to infantile people who are just having fun and playing pretend.

    It's like giving grief about Vikings not wearing horned helmets and riding bears into battle to some Viking pagan LARPer.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

    That figures. The things that personage writes about Ukraine could not be written by anyone who lived in Ukraine at least a few months (not in lunatic asylum). That same applies to the AP here, although AP appears to be less arrogant, which suggest a bit more contact with real Ukraine.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @AnonFromTN

    Look, it's not my fault that I seem to have touched a live wire with you and you can't seem to explain your inconsistent stances? BTW, I'm not the one stewing, but it appears that you are jumping around from country to country not really sure where you belong but always living with your own illusions about Mother Russia, yet unwilling to actually take up residence there? :-)

  534. @German_reader
    @Dmitry

    "Core population" in my usage is the group without which a polity would be something radically different.
    Russia contains many ethnic and religious minorities, but without (nominally orthodox) Great Russians it wouldn't be Russia.
    Israel contains a large non-Jewish minority, but it was explicitly set up as a Jewish nation state, without Jews Israel wouldn't exist (I don't comment on internal distinctions between different kinds of Jews who in any case seem to be on the way to mixing into a common identity in Israel).

    Similarly, the USA was once implicitly defined by Northwest European, mostly British Protestants (especially of the non-conformist kind) who founded the USA, set up its institutions (in a line of tradition with earlier developments in Britain) and expanded its territory. Whatever other groups may have contributed, without British Protestants the USA would never have come into being and something very different would have existed in North America.
    So they undoubtedly were the "core population" of the US, to whose mores others were expected to assimilate. Unfortunately mass immigration and the idiotic proposition nation idea has substantially eroded this status of Anglo-Saxon Protestants in the US, but it was a reality for long stretches of American history.
    I don't see why this should even be controversial...your usage of "core" to refer to marginal Amerindian natives strikes me as rather eccentric.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Hail

    Well searching for “core population”, it seems to just find something about ethnogenesis in the Philippines.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Models_of_migration_to_the_Philippines#Core_Population_Theory

    However, if you interpret this word to mean “dominant population” and I to mean “people with roots in the land”, then is not disagreement, just ambiguity in the phrase.

    Obviously, both answers are trivial and uninteresting. Politically and culturally dominant group in the “polity” known as “United States”, are anglosaxons. But historically rooted group to America are the native races.

    If you recall that Houston has the same latitude as New Delhi in India. And that even White House and Capital Hill, in Washington DC, has the same latitude as Palermo Sicily. You can see how non-adapted – or recent in human history terms – the dominant races are still to much of American land.

    Historically rooted (as opposed to transient) population in Houston will eventually evolve the same skin colour as the New Delhi Indians, who share their latitude.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Dmitry


    Historically rooted (as opposed to transient) population in Houston will eventually evolve the same skin colour as the New Delhi Indians, who share their latitude.
     
    That's a bizarre statement, do you also expect Africans in Europe to eventually evolve into being pale-skinned?
    imo there's no reason to think evolution will work like that under modern conditions, which selection pressures should cause that? Maybe pale-skinned people have a higher risk of skin cancer in certain parts of the US (I don't know, pure guess on my part), but that won't lead to any discernible change in average phenotype which will only come about as a result of immigration and ethnic mixing.

    Replies: @Dmitry

  535. German_reader says:
    @Dmitry
    @German_reader

    Well searching for "core population", it seems to just find something about ethnogenesis in the Philippines.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Models_of_migration_to_the_Philippines#Core_Population_Theory

    However, if you interpret this word to mean "dominant population" and I to mean "people with roots in the land", then is not disagreement, just ambiguity in the phrase.

    Obviously, both answers are trivial and uninteresting. Politically and culturally dominant group in the "polity" known as "United States", are anglosaxons. But historically rooted group to America are the native races.

    If you recall that Houston has the same latitude as New Delhi in India. And that even White House and Capital Hill, in Washington DC, has the same latitude as Palermo Sicily. You can see how non-adapted - or recent in human history terms - the dominant races are still to much of American land.

    Historically rooted (as opposed to transient) population in Houston will eventually evolve the same skin colour as the New Delhi Indians, who share their latitude.

    Replies: @German_reader

    Historically rooted (as opposed to transient) population in Houston will eventually evolve the same skin colour as the New Delhi Indians, who share their latitude.

    That’s a bizarre statement, do you also expect Africans in Europe to eventually evolve into being pale-skinned?
    imo there’s no reason to think evolution will work like that under modern conditions, which selection pressures should cause that? Maybe pale-skinned people have a higher risk of skin cancer in certain parts of the US (I don’t know, pure guess on my part), but that won’t lead to any discernible change in average phenotype which will only come about as a result of immigration and ethnic mixing.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @German_reader


    Africans in Europe to eventually evolve into being pale-skinned
     
    Of course, if even an isolated African population (that does not marry other races) is settled in a Northern latitude, across a certain number of generations, then the skin will become whiter incrementally. The selection pressure in Northern latitudes would vitamin D and other health benefits of solar radiation, as well as possibly sexual selection.

    (Because people are inside more today than historically, then there is even more selection pressure now in this direction than before).

    -

    However, we are now talking about quite transient populations, increasingly with invention of modern transportation.

    Replies: @German_reader

  536. @AnonFromTN
    @anonymous coward

    That figures. The things that personage writes about Ukraine could not be written by anyone who lived in Ukraine at least a few months (not in lunatic asylum). That same applies to the AP here, although AP appears to be less arrogant, which suggest a bit more contact with real Ukraine.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    Look, it’s not my fault that I seem to have touched a live wire with you and you can’t seem to explain your inconsistent stances? BTW, I’m not the one stewing, but it appears that you are jumping around from country to country not really sure where you belong but always living with your own illusions about Mother Russia, yet unwilling to actually take up residence there? 🙂

  537. @AP
    @Simpleguest

    Sorry, postmodernism isn't my thing. By your logic, if some Guatemalan Mestizo "feels" that he is a Spaniard, he is one and that's all that matters. Nope.

    Replies: @Simpleguest

    Correct analogy would be “feels Hispanic”.
    Anyway, what you think or what’s “your thing” is completely irrelevant under this sun.

  538. We get it, Ukranians bad
    Maybe if you stopped calling them names or falling like fools for stupid baits they’d agree with you

  539. @Simpleguest
    @AP

    In the end, what you think is irrelevant.
    Obviously, Serbs feel Slavic, as other South Slavs, and that's all that matters.

    Replies: @AP, @Korenchkin

    It isn’t just a feeling
    We speak a Slavic language and use a version of the Cyrillic Alphabet (designed for Slavic langauges and originates from South Slavs incidentally), in many cases our language is closer to the older Slavic pronounciations then languages like Polish or Russian
    We are also Eastern Orthodox Christians which is a majority Slavic branch of Christianity
    There is a history of Serbs who fled the Ottomans settling in Russian-Polish borderlands, theres even a place called New Serbia in the middle of Ukraine, though I think the name fell out of use
    Serbia and other South Slavs were also part of the Slavophile circlejerk in the 19th Century which resulted in the disaterous Pan-Slavic project of Yugoslavia

    Hell the Black Hand which killed Franz Ferdinand was a Pan-Slavic organization, based in Serbia (though supported by British Agents)

    • Replies: @AP
    @Korenchkin


    It isn’t just a feeling
    We speak a Slavic language and use a version of the Cyrillic Alphabet (designed for Slavic langauges and originates from South Slavs incidentally), in many cases our language is closer to the older Slavic pronounciations then languages like Polish or Russian
    We are also Eastern Orthodox Christians which is a majority Slavic branch of Christianity
     
    Well, Guatemalan Mestizos speak Spanish, and they are devout Catholics. They may be better Catholics than are modern Spaniards. Their dialect may have preserved some archaic elements of the southern Spanish speech that have been lost in Spain.

    On account of Serbs speaking a Slavic language and being 25% Slav, and being Christians, I certainly have more sympathy for them than for the Albanians and Turks. But they aren't a Slavic people, they in essence are a Slavicised people. Their historical Slavophila is funny LARPing.

    Replies: @Korenchkin

    , @Simpleguest
    @Korenchkin

    "Serbia and other South Slavs were also part of the Slavophile circlejerk in the 19th Century which resulted in the disaterous Pan-Slavic project of Yugoslavia"

    Out of curiosity, why was Yugoslavia a disastrous project?
    In all honesty, it seemed like it solved all, be it past or future, problems of every Yugoslav ethnic group.

    For instance, since you are Serbian, all Serbs lived, for better or worse, in one country, didn't they?
    What are Serbs, going to do now, that Yugoslavia is no more?
    Recreate the Serbian medieval state, perhaps?
    Well get in line, with the Bulgars, Illirians, Byzantians, Ottomans, Croats etc.

    Apologies for being a bit harsh, but that's the reality of folks living over there.

    Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous, @Korenchkin

  540. What is and isn’t Slav

    To date, I’ve yet to see confirmation that a complete DNA study of given ethnic/national groups involve anywhere near the same number of folks as those participating in a population census – leading to the level of accuracy of DNA studies. Furthermore, it’s well established that different DNA gathering venues can and have produced different results.

    Moreover, there doesn’t seem to be anything anywhere suggesting 100% Slav.

    As for the not so scientific random photo comparisons periodically posted at these threads, Serbs and Bulgarians generally (at least from what I’ve seen) seem to (on appearance) more closely resemble Russians than Guatemalans do Spaniards from Spain.

    In terms of looks, plenty of Poles and Ukrainians can pass as Russians. There’s also the Hollywood Scandinavian factor of portraying Russians as evidenced with Dolph Lundgren and Brigitte Neilson.

    You can’t just go by looks. Someone who is half Greek Sephardic (via Italy and Spain) on one side of the family and half Baltic German Ashkenazi and half Russian Orthodox Christian on the other can look more Slavic than Sephardic, as well as look more Slavic than many having a more pure (for lack of a better term) Slavic background.

  541. @German_reader
    @Dmitry


    Historically rooted (as opposed to transient) population in Houston will eventually evolve the same skin colour as the New Delhi Indians, who share their latitude.
     
    That's a bizarre statement, do you also expect Africans in Europe to eventually evolve into being pale-skinned?
    imo there's no reason to think evolution will work like that under modern conditions, which selection pressures should cause that? Maybe pale-skinned people have a higher risk of skin cancer in certain parts of the US (I don't know, pure guess on my part), but that won't lead to any discernible change in average phenotype which will only come about as a result of immigration and ethnic mixing.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    Africans in Europe to eventually evolve into being pale-skinned

    Of course, if even an isolated African population (that does not marry other races) is settled in a Northern latitude, across a certain number of generations, then the skin will become whiter incrementally. The selection pressure in Northern latitudes would vitamin D and other health benefits of solar radiation, as well as possibly sexual selection.

    (Because people are inside more today than historically, then there is even more selection pressure now in this direction than before).

    However, we are now talking about quite transient populations, increasingly with invention of modern transportation.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Dmitry


    Of course, if the population is settled in a latitude, across a certain number of generations. The selection pressure is vitamin D.
     
    Which can be counter-acted by taking supplements.
    I don't understand how you imagine such selection pressures to work under present-day conditions, it's not like dark-skinned people in Europe die off early in a way which would affect their reproductive chances.

    Replies: @Dmitry

  542. German_reader says:
    @Dmitry
    @German_reader


    Africans in Europe to eventually evolve into being pale-skinned
     
    Of course, if even an isolated African population (that does not marry other races) is settled in a Northern latitude, across a certain number of generations, then the skin will become whiter incrementally. The selection pressure in Northern latitudes would vitamin D and other health benefits of solar radiation, as well as possibly sexual selection.

    (Because people are inside more today than historically, then there is even more selection pressure now in this direction than before).

    -

    However, we are now talking about quite transient populations, increasingly with invention of modern transportation.

    Replies: @German_reader

    Of course, if the population is settled in a latitude, across a certain number of generations. The selection pressure is vitamin D.

    Which can be counter-acted by taking supplements.
    I don’t understand how you imagine such selection pressures to work under present-day conditions, it’s not like dark-skinned people in Europe die off early in a way which would affect their reproductive chances.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @German_reader


    Which can be counter-acted by taking supplements.

     

    Well this is a little offtopic lol.

    Probably supplementation of vitamin D won't work (but rather vitamin D is a marker of whether the person is getting the beneficial effects of the sun exposure).

    Sun's effect on the skin (although not well understood) likely very important for human health. E.g. among Swedish population, they find that people who do not receive sufficient sun exposure had double risk of dying in 20 years

    "There are not many daily lifestyle choices that double your risk of dying. In a 2016 study published in the Journal of Internal Medicine, Lindqvist’s team put it in perspective: “Avoidance of sun exposure is a risk factor of a similar magnitude as smoking, in terms of life expectancy.”

    https://www.outsideonline.com/2380751/sunscreen-sun-exposure-skin-cancer-science


    not like dark-skinned people in Europe die off early in a way which would affect their reproductive chances.
     
    Selection pressures can be small, but as long as it is statistically significant, it will result in a increase of prevalence of the advantageous genes in the population.

    African Americans likely have a lot of health disadvantages as a result of the interaction of their skin with the sun in even American latitudes (which are much lower on average, than for Northern Europe).

    For example, in terms of their high cancer rates. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3427205/

    (And African Americans are already a lot whiter than African Africa, although this probably mainly by gene flow from Europeans, rather than evolution).

    Replies: @Dmitry

  543. @Epigon
    @melanf

    This map is fake and gay.

    East Austria and East Germany are Slavic more than they are Germanic, let alone Celto-Germanic.

    There is less Greek/Mediterranean among Serbs than there is Scandinavian.

    How can south Croatia and Herzegovina, where I2a maxes out among Croats, followed by R1a, be any different from Bosnia and Serbia where I2a is most prevalent, followed by R1a?

    Slavonia spoke Serb Shtokavian ekavica and ijekavica as a result of Austrian settlement of Serbs following its reconquest from Ottomans - something noted in census data and works of Reljković, in addition to being called Little Rascia by Hungarians in 15th, 16th century due to Serbs fleeing Ottoman invasion. So how in the world can Slavonia be different from Baranya, Vojvodina?

    Replies: @melanf

    East Austria and East Germany are Slavic more than they are Germanic, let alone Celto-Germanic

    .

    by Y-DNA?

  544. @AP
    @Brutis

    OK, my first instinct was right.

    By Turks do you mean (also ) Mughals?

    Replies: @Brutis

    Turk means Muslim.

    Imagine following Gandhi when the religion of Steel was born in your country

    https://www.instagram.com/p/B2ntYvdlia4/?igshid=6pag113d9vwx

    • Replies: @AP
    @Brutis

    Yes, Sikhs are pretty cool people.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Anatoly Karlin

  545. @AP
    @Epigon


    There is actually a good explanation for significantly lower E1b presence among Serbs than among neighbouring Bulgarians – medieval Serb laws explicitly forbade intermarrying of Serbs and non-Serb Balkanites, starting with code of laws by king Milutin and going all the way to Tzar Dušan. Only after Ottoman invasion and subsequent migrations would they intermarry, assimilate to form modern Serb nation.
     
    If correct, this suggests that modern "Serbs" can essentially be characterized as Serb-speaking Balkanoids LARPing as medieval Serbs, although isolated pockets of actual Serbs still exist. So modern Serbs celebrating medieval Serbs as their heroes is analogous to some Guatemalan Mestizos celebrating the exploits of Cortes, the literature of Cervantes, as their own.

    Fascinating. Of course Eastern Slavs can be no less ridiculous. Ukrainian and Russian Slavs fight over whether the Scandinavian Rus overlords who enslaved Slavs were Ukrainian or Russian.

    Replies: @Brutis, @melanf

    Romanian Getae are identified with Greek Zhat or Panjabi Jatt.

    Balkan people are different and it honestly doesn’t matter.

    The Warrior Spirit is in us all we can choose to reject or deny it.

    People concerned about demographics should fight to regain control over their lands and women.

    We know this War between Africa and Arya will always end in our favor so we remain in ever bliss, and high spirits.

    Serbs also have a proud history whether Slav or not.

    A small country able to cause great calamity and a great war is indeed remarkable!

  546. @German_reader
    @Dmitry


    Of course, if the population is settled in a latitude, across a certain number of generations. The selection pressure is vitamin D.
     
    Which can be counter-acted by taking supplements.
    I don't understand how you imagine such selection pressures to work under present-day conditions, it's not like dark-skinned people in Europe die off early in a way which would affect their reproductive chances.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    Which can be counter-acted by taking supplements.

    Well this is a little offtopic lol.

    Probably supplementation of vitamin D won’t work (but rather vitamin D is a marker of whether the person is getting the beneficial effects of the sun exposure).

    Sun’s effect on the skin (although not well understood) likely very important for human health. E.g. among Swedish population, they find that people who do not receive sufficient sun exposure had double risk of dying in 20 years

    “There are not many daily lifestyle choices that double your risk of dying. In a 2016 study published in the Journal of Internal Medicine, Lindqvist’s team put it in perspective: “Avoidance of sun exposure is a risk factor of a similar magnitude as smoking, in terms of life expectancy.”

    https://www.outsideonline.com/2380751/sunscreen-sun-exposure-skin-cancer-science

    not like dark-skinned people in Europe die off early in a way which would affect their reproductive chances.

    Selection pressures can be small, but as long as it is statistically significant, it will result in a increase of prevalence of the advantageous genes in the population.

    African Americans likely have a lot of health disadvantages as a result of the interaction of their skin with the sun in even American latitudes (which are much lower on average, than for Northern Europe).

    For example, in terms of their high cancer rates. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3427205/

    (And African Americans are already a lot whiter than African Africa, although this probably mainly by gene flow from Europeans, rather than evolution).

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Dmitry


    (And African Americans are already a lot whiter than African Africa, although this probably mainly by gene flow from Europeans, rather than evolution).

     

    A lot of African Americans already now seem to be skin colour of Indians in New Delhi (i.e. probably not far from the evolutionary opitimal solution for living in the latitude of Houston).

    You can see in pictures of African Americans visiting , that they are significantly less black skin colour when they stand next to African chiefs in Cameroon (who have a higher level of melanin).

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mos13VFhPAc

  547. @Dmitry
    @German_reader


    Which can be counter-acted by taking supplements.

     

    Well this is a little offtopic lol.

    Probably supplementation of vitamin D won't work (but rather vitamin D is a marker of whether the person is getting the beneficial effects of the sun exposure).

    Sun's effect on the skin (although not well understood) likely very important for human health. E.g. among Swedish population, they find that people who do not receive sufficient sun exposure had double risk of dying in 20 years

    "There are not many daily lifestyle choices that double your risk of dying. In a 2016 study published in the Journal of Internal Medicine, Lindqvist’s team put it in perspective: “Avoidance of sun exposure is a risk factor of a similar magnitude as smoking, in terms of life expectancy.”

    https://www.outsideonline.com/2380751/sunscreen-sun-exposure-skin-cancer-science


    not like dark-skinned people in Europe die off early in a way which would affect their reproductive chances.
     
    Selection pressures can be small, but as long as it is statistically significant, it will result in a increase of prevalence of the advantageous genes in the population.

    African Americans likely have a lot of health disadvantages as a result of the interaction of their skin with the sun in even American latitudes (which are much lower on average, than for Northern Europe).

    For example, in terms of their high cancer rates. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3427205/

    (And African Americans are already a lot whiter than African Africa, although this probably mainly by gene flow from Europeans, rather than evolution).

    Replies: @Dmitry

    (And African Americans are already a lot whiter than African Africa, although this probably mainly by gene flow from Europeans, rather than evolution).

    A lot of African Americans already now seem to be skin colour of Indians in New Delhi (i.e. probably not far from the evolutionary opitimal solution for living in the latitude of Houston).

    You can see in pictures of African Americans visiting , that they are significantly less black skin colour when they stand next to African chiefs in Cameroon (who have a higher level of melanin).

  548. @anonymous coward
    @AP


    So-called “New Russia” was 70% Little Russian-speaking.
     
    "Little Russian-speaking" is not Ukrainian. Hence the Soviet campaign of ukrainization.

    Replies: @AP

    Your pattern of always being wrong continues. “Little Russian” was the term for the Ukrainian language. So the first significant example of Ukrainian literature, Aneida by Kotlyarevski, was called Little Russian:

    So according to the 1897 census, Kiev guberniya was 79% Ukrainian (Little Russian) speaking, 12% Yiddish speaking, 6% Russian speaking, and 2% Polish speaking.

    The Kharkov guberniya was 81% Ukrainian speaking and 18% Russian speaking.

    The Kherson guberniya (which consisted of southern Ukraine, including Odessa but not Crimea) was 53.5% Ukrainian-speaking, 21% Russian-speaking, 12% Yiddish-speaking, 5.5% Romanian-speaking, 4.5% German-speaking, 1% Polish-speaking.

    The Poltava guberniya was the purest Ukrainian guberniya (the western ones had many Poles and Jews, the southern ones and Kharkiv had many Russians). It was 93% Ukrainian-speaking, 4% Yiddish-speaking and 3% Russian-speaking. It is no coincidence that the Ukrainian literary language is based on the Little Russian speech of Poltava.

    • Replies: @anonymous coward
    @AP


    “Little Russian” was the term for the Ukrainian language.
     
    No, because the so-called "Ukrainian language" was invented by Soviet authorities and refined by Galician emigrants from Canada after 1991.

    So the first significant example of Ukrainian literature, Aneida by Kotlyarevski, was called Little Russian
     
    No. "Aneida" has to be translated into the modern so-called "Ukrainian language", whereas it is very readable to a modern Russian speaker, even if obviously in a colloquial dialect.

    Furthermore, "Aneida" was a joke, an attempt to juxtapose classical Greece with a rustic colloquial Russian dialect. It's a Russian work written in Russian.

    Replies: @AP

    , @Gerard1234
    @AP

    LOL..so the pattern here is that a serious intellectual as Anonymous Coward gives an 100% factual and damning argument....then he proceeds to completely substantiate it. You on the other hand, a serious POS ,clearly leech off him out of insecurity/jealousy of his knowledge....particularly when it has been countlessly proved that you can't speak a word of Russian and simply have no knowledge of what is modern-day"Ukrainian" and what fake nonsense it could have been derived from - because you are a fantasist freak.


    1897 census, Kiev guberniya was 79% Ukrainian (Little Russian) speaking, 12% Yiddish speaking, 6% Russian speaking, and 2% Polish speaking.

    The Kharkov guberniya was 81% Ukrainian speaking and 18% Russian speaking.

     

    HAHAHAHAHA!........are these are the same fake polls and distortions as braindead as the census propaganda BS that in 2001 only 25% of people in Kiev spoke Russian as first language?.......when walking round Kiev city for several hours and several kilometeres you can go without hearing any other language except Russian.....not a single world of "Ukrainian"

    But it gets even funnier - imagine being so pathetic that is is a "success" for this fake country to have returned to it a painting by a Russian painter, of a great Russian leader, of a Russian event in history previously stored in a Soviet-created Russian city in the territory of "Ukraine" ( Dnepropetrovsk) originally stolen by the Nazi's...all because of the complete absence of any "Ukrainian" culture

    https://tass.ru/kultura/5962913

    In all this history of Nazi/Germany reparations...not a single thing taken that classifies as "Ukrainian " "culture" LOL. Absolutely nothing

    I do realise that Germany would never return the "golden vishivanka? that Jesus wore at the last supper .......or the worlds biggest public toilet ( the Bandera grave in Berlin).but there must be something ( NOT!!)

    So the embarrassing truth is that in a few years of occupation and plunder of "Ukrainian" territory by the Nazis absolutely fuck all culturally "Ukrainian" was found or deemed worthy of being stolen. Not a single set of gold or silver coins with "Ukrainian" inscriptions, not a wooden carving, a "Ukrainian" painting, artefact, statue , ANYTHING. ....even though countless things of national cultural heritage were taken by the Nazis in France, Russia, Holland, Belgium,Yugoslavia, Poland and from their African territories before WW1....but nothing "Ukrainian". Entirely because it is a made-up culture you idiot

    Replies: @AP

  549. @Korenchkin
    @Simpleguest

    It isn't just a feeling
    We speak a Slavic language and use a version of the Cyrillic Alphabet (designed for Slavic langauges and originates from South Slavs incidentally), in many cases our language is closer to the older Slavic pronounciations then languages like Polish or Russian
    We are also Eastern Orthodox Christians which is a majority Slavic branch of Christianity
    There is a history of Serbs who fled the Ottomans settling in Russian-Polish borderlands, theres even a place called New Serbia in the middle of Ukraine, though I think the name fell out of use
    Serbia and other South Slavs were also part of the Slavophile circlejerk in the 19th Century which resulted in the disaterous Pan-Slavic project of Yugoslavia

    Hell the Black Hand which killed Franz Ferdinand was a Pan-Slavic organization, based in Serbia (though supported by British Agents)

    Replies: @AP, @Simpleguest

    It isn’t just a feeling
    We speak a Slavic language and use a version of the Cyrillic Alphabet (designed for Slavic langauges and originates from South Slavs incidentally), in many cases our language is closer to the older Slavic pronounciations then languages like Polish or Russian
    We are also Eastern Orthodox Christians which is a majority Slavic branch of Christianity

    Well, Guatemalan Mestizos speak Spanish, and they are devout Catholics. They may be better Catholics than are modern Spaniards. Their dialect may have preserved some archaic elements of the southern Spanish speech that have been lost in Spain.

    On account of Serbs speaking a Slavic language and being 25% Slav, and being Christians, I certainly have more sympathy for them than for the Albanians and Turks. But they aren’t a Slavic people, they in essence are a Slavicised people. Their historical Slavophila is funny LARPing.

    • Replies: @Korenchkin
    @AP


    25% Slav
     
    25% R1a you mean (and that % might be distorted due to a lack of proper studies), are Lithuanians, Latvians, Tajiks and Pashtuns Slavs then?
    We don't even know if the Proto-Slavs were a pure R1a group
    And this mixing of Slavs and Dinarics happened over 1200 years ago and was a natural process, not a state sponsored action (there was no Slavia funding an East Balkan Company to set up colonies)
    South Slavs were speaking a Slavic language since Slavs began being recorded in history, the oldest South Slavic documments are also over 1000 years old and are some of the oldest recorded examples of Slavic language
    Slavophilia originating from South Slavs did not come from some larp to imitate Russia or Poland, it was a movement originating from efforts to preserve Slavic language, religion and culture in face of assimilation by the Ottomans, Italians, Germans and Hungarians (similar movements appeared in Bohemia aswell, which resulted in the Prague Slavic Congress), so the preservation of some old Slavic custom or way of speaking came out of a conscious effort, not by being cut off from some home colonial state

    And you are still dodging the best point, Germanics are split into different but closely related genetic groups just like Slavs, yet they don't engage into this sort of "not real Germanic" talk

    Replies: @AP, @TheTotallyAnonymous

  550. @Brutis
    @AP

    Turk means Muslim.

    Imagine following Gandhi when the religion of Steel was born in your country


    https://www.instagram.com/p/B2ntYvdlia4/?igshid=6pag113d9vwx

    Replies: @AP

    Yes, Sikhs are pretty cool people.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @AP

    They certainly have some of the most beautiful houses of worship around the planet. Here's one in Glendale, AZ:

    https://www.yogitimes.com/photo/review/thumb/646/ed36da7db1a28c91c9b320ac96b40657-1365383462-gurdwara.jpg

    A charismatic form of pantheism? I have wondered why it doesn't combine with the B'hai faith of Iran? They seem so very similar, maybe I'm missing something? (Actually, both faiths house some of the most beautiful temples of worship)...

    , @Anatoly Karlin
    @AP

    He has a very powerful Twitter account: https://twitter.com/KillerSilence1

    https://twitter.com/KillerSilence1/status/1144806808726515713

    Replies: @AP

  551. @AP
    @Brutis

    Yes, Sikhs are pretty cool people.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Anatoly Karlin

    They certainly have some of the most beautiful houses of worship around the planet. Here’s one in Glendale, AZ:

    A charismatic form of pantheism? I have wondered why it doesn’t combine with the B’hai faith of Iran? They seem so very similar, maybe I’m missing something? (Actually, both faiths house some of the most beautiful temples of worship)…

  552. @AP
    @Brutis

    Yes, Sikhs are pretty cool people.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Anatoly Karlin

    • Replies: @AP
    @Anatoly Karlin

    It is indeed awesome and powerful.

  553. @Anatoly Karlin
    @AP

    He has a very powerful Twitter account: https://twitter.com/KillerSilence1

    https://twitter.com/KillerSilence1/status/1144806808726515713

    Replies: @AP

    It is indeed awesome and powerful.

  554. @German_reader
    @Dmitry

    "Core population" in my usage is the group without which a polity would be something radically different.
    Russia contains many ethnic and religious minorities, but without (nominally orthodox) Great Russians it wouldn't be Russia.
    Israel contains a large non-Jewish minority, but it was explicitly set up as a Jewish nation state, without Jews Israel wouldn't exist (I don't comment on internal distinctions between different kinds of Jews who in any case seem to be on the way to mixing into a common identity in Israel).

    Similarly, the USA was once implicitly defined by Northwest European, mostly British Protestants (especially of the non-conformist kind) who founded the USA, set up its institutions (in a line of tradition with earlier developments in Britain) and expanded its territory. Whatever other groups may have contributed, without British Protestants the USA would never have come into being and something very different would have existed in North America.
    So they undoubtedly were the "core population" of the US, to whose mores others were expected to assimilate. Unfortunately mass immigration and the idiotic proposition nation idea has substantially eroded this status of Anglo-Saxon Protestants in the US, but it was a reality for long stretches of American history.
    I don't see why this should even be controversial...your usage of "core" to refer to marginal Amerindian natives strikes me as rather eccentric.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Hail

    the USA was once implicitly defined by Northwest European, mostly British Protestants (especially of the non-conformist kind) who founded the USA, set up its institutions (in a line of tradition with earlier developments in Britain) and expanded its territory. […] So they undoubtedly were the “core population” of the US, to whose mores others were expected to assimilate. Unfortunately mass immigration and the idiotic proposition nation idea has substantially eroded this status of Anglo-Saxon Protestants in the US, but it was a reality for long stretches of American history.

    The US core population is still NW-European Protestant. That hasn’t changed.

    What has changed is we lost leadership within the state, which is now run by — well, look at the time! I think I should stop there.

  555. @AP
    @Epigon


    There is actually a good explanation for significantly lower E1b presence among Serbs than among neighbouring Bulgarians – medieval Serb laws explicitly forbade intermarrying of Serbs and non-Serb Balkanites, starting with code of laws by king Milutin and going all the way to Tzar Dušan. Only after Ottoman invasion and subsequent migrations would they intermarry, assimilate to form modern Serb nation.
     
    If correct, this suggests that modern "Serbs" can essentially be characterized as Serb-speaking Balkanoids LARPing as medieval Serbs, although isolated pockets of actual Serbs still exist. So modern Serbs celebrating medieval Serbs as their heroes is analogous to some Guatemalan Mestizos celebrating the exploits of Cortes, the literature of Cervantes, as their own.

    Fascinating. Of course Eastern Slavs can be no less ridiculous. Ukrainian and Russian Slavs fight over whether the Scandinavian Rus overlords who enslaved Slavs were Ukrainian or Russian.

    Replies: @Brutis, @melanf

    Ukrainian and Russian Slavs fight over whether the Scandinavian Rus overlords who enslaved Slavs were Ukrainian or Russian.

    A curious example of a battle with windmills. Perhaps there are marginal freaks who argue over the Internet “whether the Scandinavian Rus were Ukrainian or Russian”, but I personally have never seen such discussions. Scandinavian origin Rurikids in the scientific community has never been seriously challenged-neither in the pre-revolutionary, nor in the Soviet or post-Soviet times (of course there have always been marginals with special views, but they are marginals).

    On the other hand, you are repeating here like a parrot version of the ethnic Scandinavian elite who ruled the Slavic slaves – quite obvious nonsense (as you can learn from the works of both Russian and Scandinavian historians dealing with this topic). That is your own views – the same nonsense as statements that Rurik was the Ukrainian.

    • Replies: @AP
    @melanf


    A curious example of a battle with windmills. Perhaps there are marginal freaks who argue over the Internet “whether the Scandinavian Rus were Ukrainian or Russian”
     
    So Russians and Ukrainians don't both claim that Helga, Vladimir, etc. were Russian or Ukrainians?

    Replies: @melanf

  556. In a just world where the electorate wasn’t filled with low IQ drones, Yang would have been president long ago.

  557. @melanf
    @melanf

    This is very approximate, but seems mostly correct division of the European peoples by origin (although strangely the unification of the Finns with the peoples of the Northern Urals)

    https://d1softball.net/wp-content/uploads/ktz/map-of-europe-1600-ad-37ipi4w3m0czz8xbf3v668.jpg

    Replies: @Korenchkin, @Epigon, @Thulean Friend

    Hungarians being Slavo-Germanic? People who don’t understand genetics should not post haplomeme maps. And haplomemes in of themselves are less useful to understanding ancestry than genetic clusters.

    • Replies: @melanf
    @Thulean Friend


    Hungarians being Slavo-Germanic?
     
    As far as I know genetically Hungarians are virtually indistinguishable from neighboring Nations and completely devoid of "steppe" genes.
  558. @AP
    @Dmitry

    Albanians:

    http://www.oranews.tv/storage/app/media/home/ora/public_html/storage/app/media/2018/12/05/3mijeleke-studente.jpg

    https://www.worldbulletin.net/images/resize/100/656x400/haberler/2018/12/thousands-of-albanian-students-protests-in-front-of-education-ministry_51041.jpg

    Serbs:

    https://www.arbitrationassociation.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/BGMoottim2016.jpg

    https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-KZR53t1qbSc/VDJ0kw4j7WI/AAAAAAAArx0/GfYHYOh7dcg/s912/SvecaniPrijemBrucosaPFB-062.JPG

    They look similar, Serbs are lighter.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @melanf, @Thulean Friend

    Serbs are lighter

    Not my experience here in Sweden and we have a huge ex-yugo diaspora. Plus, if you’re gonna cherrypick then I can do that also. Here is a demonstration of Serbian nationalists.

    In my experience, Serbs, while being swarthier, have typically been better-behaved in my dealings with them. I’ve met quite a few of Albanians who I could have mistaken for an ethnic Swede by seeing them on the streets but who acted like complete trash, indistinguishable for ghetto arabs in any interaction.

    That said, I find nordicism to be incredibly stupid. I like blond and blue-eyed people for purely aesthetic reasons. There’s something to be said for looking at a crowd of people and to some extent see yourself reflected in them. But this is a purely personal aesthetic preference. The notion that some Europeans are “better” because they are lighter is silly. Northern Russia is certainly less swarthy than France yet the latter is unmistakably more prosperous. It’s just D&C bullshit of the lowest orders.

    • Replies: @Korenchkin
    @Thulean Friend

    Balkan ultra-nationalist types are almost always indistinguishable from Turks and behave like the worst Gopnik/Vatnik stereotypes you can imagine, my theory is that their behaviour stems from insecurity about their appearance
    We are also not sending our best to Sweden, far from it, during the 90s uncountable amount of subhumans managed to squeeze in as "refugees" to Sweden while actual refugees got to go around homeless as the country was getting pillaged

    The Grenades from Grenade attacks in Sweden are Yugo surplus leftover from the 90s which the they smuggle into the country which let them in to save them from evil dictator (insert name here)

  559. @melanf
    @AP


    Ukrainian and Russian Slavs fight over whether the Scandinavian Rus overlords who enslaved Slavs were Ukrainian or Russian.
     
    A curious example of a battle with windmills. Perhaps there are marginal freaks who argue over the Internet "whether the Scandinavian Rus were Ukrainian or Russian", but I personally have never seen such discussions. Scandinavian origin Rurikids in the scientific community has never been seriously challenged-neither in the pre-revolutionary, nor in the Soviet or post-Soviet times (of course there have always been marginals with special views, but they are marginals).

    On the other hand, you are repeating here like a parrot version of the ethnic Scandinavian elite who ruled the Slavic slaves - quite obvious nonsense (as you can learn from the works of both Russian and Scandinavian historians dealing with this topic). That is your own views - the same nonsense as statements that Rurik was the Ukrainian.

    Replies: @AP

    A curious example of a battle with windmills. Perhaps there are marginal freaks who argue over the Internet “whether the Scandinavian Rus were Ukrainian or Russian”

    So Russians and Ukrainians don’t both claim that Helga, Vladimir, etc. were Russian or Ukrainians?

    • Replies: @melanf
    @AP


    So Russians and Ukrainians don’t both claim that Helga, Vladimir, etc. were Russian or Ukrainians?
     
    Russians and Ukrainians freaks - maybe. But this is a veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery marginal point of view at the level of UFOlogy and belief in the flat earth (at least in Russia). In scientific works (even marginal) such views are lacking utterly .
  560. @Thulean Friend
    @melanf

    Hungarians being Slavo-Germanic? People who don't understand genetics should not post haplomeme maps. And haplomemes in of themselves are less useful to understanding ancestry than genetic clusters.

    Replies: @melanf

    Hungarians being Slavo-Germanic?

    As far as I know genetically Hungarians are virtually indistinguishable from neighboring Nations and completely devoid of “steppe” genes.

    • Agree: Kent Nationalist
  561. @AP
    @melanf


    A curious example of a battle with windmills. Perhaps there are marginal freaks who argue over the Internet “whether the Scandinavian Rus were Ukrainian or Russian”
     
    So Russians and Ukrainians don't both claim that Helga, Vladimir, etc. were Russian or Ukrainians?

    Replies: @melanf

    So Russians and Ukrainians don’t both claim that Helga, Vladimir, etc. were Russian or Ukrainians?

    Russians and Ukrainians freaks – maybe. But this is a veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery marginal point of view at the level of UFOlogy and belief in the flat earth (at least in Russia). In scientific works (even marginal) such views are lacking utterly .

  562. @anonymous coward
    @reiner Tor


    Have Russians organized trains which are never (okay, rarely) late?
     
    Russian trains are never late. A 10 minute delay for a cross-country train is counted as an emergency and happens maybe once a year.

    Now compare to German trains, lol.

    In short, I applaud your mastery of dumb memes. Your grasp of reality - not so much.

    Replies: @Korenchkin, @reiner Tor

    Okay, I chose a bad example.

  563. @anonymous coward
    @reiner Tor


    It was very bad until others elsewhere invented firearms, which the Russians adapted, and then could conquer the steppe nomads and Siberia relatively easily.
     
    Siberia was conquered with this thing: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ru/c/c5/Doszczanik.jpg

    Not with firearms. In any case, the natives there at the time already had access to firearms; it's not as if being situated right between Europe and China stifles information flow.

    Russia conquered Siberia because Russian logistics were far and above better than anything native tribes could muster. (The same reason why Russia beat Hilter and Napoleon.)

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    Siberia was easy to conquer, because it wasn’t densely populated, and its population was quite backwards anyway. But first you needed firearms to defeat the nomads who blocked your access to Siberia. It helped a great deal that the nomads’ empire was in the disintegrating phase, but their decisive military advantage was destroyed by firearms.

    • Replies: @melanf
    @reiner Tor


    Siberia was easy to conquer, because it wasn’t densely populated, and its population was quite backwards anyway. But first you needed firearms to defeat the nomads who blocked your access to Siberia. It helped a great deal that the nomads’ empire was in the disintegrating phase, but their decisive military advantage was destroyed by firearms.
     
    What's the argument about? If the Swiss lived on the site of the ancient Russian principalities, they would not be Swiss but someone else. Russians, if they lived in the Alps, would not be Russians (but rather something like Czechs)

    It is pointless to argue about the conquest of Siberia - the Moscow Principality/Russian Tsardom needed to defeat much more powerful opponents in the West in order to expand to the East. And the conquest itself was not an obvious phenomenon - for example, the Japanese did not conquer Siberia, although they had firearms and geographical access.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

  564. @Simpleguest
    @reiner Tor

    "Anyway, I cannot believe I’m here debating the very big brained idea that the Russians are better at organizing things than the Swiss."

    Rating needs similar metrics and similar order of magnitudes, hence the question, that you ignored by the way.

    We'll never know how good Swiss are at running a system that ferries their entire population in a day, every day, all year long, like Moscow subway does.
    Here is another metric: how good are the Swiss at organizing a transportation system that ferries 100 million people over one weekend like Chinese do during the Lunar New Year?

    Instead, you raise the "beaten to death" cliche of Swiss trains running on time. LOL.

    Replies: @Beckow, @reiner Tor

    We’ll never know how good Swiss are at running a system that ferries their entire population in a day, every day, all year long, like Moscow subway does.

    Well, I know how good the Swiss would be at running such a system (quite good, as they are quite good at organizing anything), but I agree with you wholeheartedly that you will never know that.

    • Replies: @Simpleguest
    @reiner Tor

    "Well, I know how good the Swiss would be at running such a system (quite good, as they are quite good at organizing anything) ...."

    LOL. He knows.

    Let me remind you where we started:

    "Russians are usually not thought of as supreme organizers, like, say, the Swiss, yet the war was an effort which they organized pretty well (after the initial setbacks)."

    In all seriousness, you compare a total war effort with Swiss trains?

    Listen, you confuse individual discipline/law observance with organisational skills.
    Yes, Swiss, like most northern westerners, are well disciplined and strictly observe the laws, unlike most of Slavs, and that is why their society seems more organized. But the "drill" produces rather "numb" people. No wander Slavs call the Germanics "Nemci".

    For some reason, this discussion reminds of a monument located in Munich and dedicated to the 20 or 25 thousand Bavarians that joined Napoleon's Grand Army in its advance on Russia.
    Not a single man returned back alive.
    What does it say of Western discipline, organisation and stupidity?

    Replies: @Korenchkin

  565. @Beckow
    @Simpleguest


    ...cliche of Swiss trains running on time.
     
    The trains run on time because they are very slow. Switzerland is not that well organised. It is tightly controlled, and people generally behave well, but the pace is leisurely and incompetence quite common.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN, @reiner Tor

    Swiss trains are not very fast (mountains and all that), but I don’t think they’re any slower than trains in Slovakia.

    Switzerland is not that well organised.

    LOL

    the pace is leisurely

    The Swiss don’t work a lot. They work well. In that, they are pretty similar to the Japanese (though the Japanese have the edge, obviously). The Japanese also work more, at least nominally (though much of the time they spend nominally at work is not connected to doing the job).

    and incompetence quite common.

    Common relative to what? They now have lots of non-Swiss working everywhere, almost a quarter of their population is foreigner, and that number doesn’t include naturalized foreigners or half-foreigners and their descendants.

    • Agree: Thulean Friend
    • Replies: @anonymous coward
    @reiner Tor

    Beckow is right. Indigenous Swiss are cow farmers are not very quick-witted, and of course the Albanian refuse that are now 25% of their population are even worse.

    Their valleys and mountains are naturally conducive to small governments and tight communities, this makes everything 100 times easier and smother.

    Their big talent is keeping peace and good will and not turning into a North Caucasus or Papua New Guinea, not technology or organization.

    P.S. Lenin lived in Switzerland for a while, his ideal version of government was the Swiss commune, lol.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @AP

    , @Dmitry
    @reiner Tor

    It is reported that Japanese have extremely high working hours, but not high productivity during those hours. Maybe the Japanese boss goes home early, but the Japanese salaryman can often likes to work in the office until 11pm or even 1am.

    Personally, I am similar, and sometimes work in the office until 3am. But this is only because I like to waste so much time during the day relaxing or watching YouTube videos or "having a break" for every hour I work.

    I don't understand economists' emphasis on productivity per hour. Because a lot of people like to have low productivity per hour, but simply to "work" for more hours (low productivity per hour can be basically just a way of diluting the intensity of the work and making it more relaxing, less stressful).

    Replies: @reiner Tor

  566. @AnonFromTN
    @Beckow

    In my experience, there is only one country where the trains always run on time – Japan. Their railway service would collapse otherwise: many East-West lines across mountains are single track, with the second track only at stations. Their high speed (Shinkansen) lines are used by trains with different speeds and number of stops. Switzerland comes second in terms of timeliness. Germany is nowhere near that. Swiss have other quirks. E.g., their ticket machine on a station near Zurich first asked me what language I prefer: German, English, or French. I found experimentally that regardless of your answer, it talks to you only in German after that.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    It’s been a long time since I used those ticket machines, but there are four languages on offer (you forgot Italian), and I randomly chose German or English, and never had a problem with either. I’ve also haven’t heard from anyone this particular complaint (I knew a number of English speakers not speaking any other language who visited Switzerland, usually for work related reasons). But I know of a case when it didn’t work (at all), and the ticket controller showed very little flexibility, which is in general a problem with the Swiss.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    @reiner Tor

    I speak several languages, but German is not among them (beyond what you need in a restaurant). Yes, I was there for work-related reason, visiting collaborators at Paul Scherrer Institute in Villigen. The ticket machine was at the Brugg train station. The first time I struggled with it, and I guess it won, although I got a ticket that ticket controller on the train accepted. The second time a collaborator at PSI helped me get a bus+train ticket all the way to Zurich airport when I boarded the bus from Villigen to Brugg. Centralization has its virtues.

  567. This will be Czechia’s tallest building.

    Yes.

    • Replies: @Korenchkin
    @Thulean Friend

    This is gonna be an unpopular opinion but I think it looks neat, it's not something you'd often see and it is interesting to look at unlike most modern architecture and doesn't make me want to kill myself like Communist blocks
    I'd argue it looks better then the glass dildos from Moscow or Warsaw (and soon Belgrade)

    Replies: @Thulean Friend

    , @simple_pseudonymic_handle
    @Thulean Friend

    It looks like the Titanic half submerged and half sticking up in the air. Is that the intent?

  568. @AP
    @Korenchkin


    It isn’t just a feeling
    We speak a Slavic language and use a version of the Cyrillic Alphabet (designed for Slavic langauges and originates from South Slavs incidentally), in many cases our language is closer to the older Slavic pronounciations then languages like Polish or Russian
    We are also Eastern Orthodox Christians which is a majority Slavic branch of Christianity
     
    Well, Guatemalan Mestizos speak Spanish, and they are devout Catholics. They may be better Catholics than are modern Spaniards. Their dialect may have preserved some archaic elements of the southern Spanish speech that have been lost in Spain.

    On account of Serbs speaking a Slavic language and being 25% Slav, and being Christians, I certainly have more sympathy for them than for the Albanians and Turks. But they aren't a Slavic people, they in essence are a Slavicised people. Their historical Slavophila is funny LARPing.

    Replies: @Korenchkin

    25% Slav

    25% R1a you mean (and that % might be distorted due to a lack of proper studies), are Lithuanians, Latvians, Tajiks and Pashtuns Slavs then?
    We don’t even know if the Proto-Slavs were a pure R1a group
    And this mixing of Slavs and Dinarics happened over 1200 years ago and was a natural process, not a state sponsored action (there was no Slavia funding an East Balkan Company to set up colonies)
    South Slavs were speaking a Slavic language since Slavs began being recorded in history, the oldest South Slavic documments are also over 1000 years old and are some of the oldest recorded examples of Slavic language
    Slavophilia originating from South Slavs did not come from some larp to imitate Russia or Poland, it was a movement originating from efforts to preserve Slavic language, religion and culture in face of assimilation by the Ottomans, Italians, Germans and Hungarians (similar movements appeared in Bohemia aswell, which resulted in the Prague Slavic Congress), so the preservation of some old Slavic custom or way of speaking came out of a conscious effort, not by being cut off from some home colonial state

    And you are still dodging the best point, Germanics are split into different but closely related genetic groups just like Slavs, yet they don’t engage into this sort of “not real Germanic” talk

    • Agree: Mikhail
    • Replies: @AP
    @Korenchkin


    And you are still dodging the best point, Germanics are split into different but closely related genetic groups just like Slavs
     
    Because there is no such thing as a real "pan-Germanic" movement and no ridiculous spectacle of, say, African-Americans (who speak a Germanic language) bragging about being "Germanics" and the same people as other Germanics.

    Replies: @Korenchkin

    , @TheTotallyAnonymous
    @Korenchkin


    Did you seriously write a wall of text to that shitty bait?
    Hohol hatred of Russia always proxies into hatred of Serbia, hell you can find Ukranians who defend the Ottoman Empire (on Reddit ofcourse) and claim that the Russian Tsarist Tyranny destroyed a tolerant and multi-ethnic Muslim Empire

    Point is, this stuff doesn’t come from some logical conclusion, you’re wasting your time “debunking it”
    Just LOL it and move on

     

    You should take your own advice that you gave me earlier in this thread, especially considering AP has shown his truly malicious provocateur and troll nature in this thread, if not beforehand.

    Still, Mr. Hack is an exception as he does appear to be a genuine and sincere commentator despite his views on some matters.

    Replies: @AP, @Korenchkin

  569. @AP
    @Thorfinnsson


    One can find non-white Americans who behave and believe very much like Americans, but they’re outliers in their own racial groups.
     
    They may have different abilities and temperaments but can be socialized into adopting basic American beliefs. Even if their particular abilities and temperaments are not as compatible as are those of northwestern Europeans to the American idea, this would only make then less successful Americans (less industrious or intelligent, so poor, worse impulse control, so more likely to be in incarcerated), yet still Americans. They would still take American ideas for granted, live by American rules to the best of their abilities, etc.

    The basic problem with a idea nation, or more commonly called a proposition nation, is that carried to its limits it requires an ideological state which controls the means of propaganda and imprisons political dissidents.

    In other words, we’re talking about the Soviet Union. And the United States is taking an increasingly Soviet trajectory.
     
    America prior to the 1960s did that without being a totalitarian state.

    Replies: @LondonBob

    We must forge the new Soviet American man.

    • Replies: @Korenchkin
    @LondonBob

    Sugar, corn and everthing soy, these were the ingredients chosen to create the perfect American goy
    But Professor Jewtonioum accidentally added an extra ingredient to the concoction, chemical Bn.

  570. @Thulean Friend
    This will be Czechia's tallest building.

    https://img.ihned.cz/attachment.php/700/73997700/qWeN5AsmcEG3QHobkpPzx7SRVMFBydKj/16ec00927b11368aa784518d95dc1a62_resize_1385_1848_.jpg

    Yes.

    Replies: @Korenchkin, @simple_pseudonymic_handle

    This is gonna be an unpopular opinion but I think it looks neat, it’s not something you’d often see and it is interesting to look at unlike most modern architecture and doesn’t make me want to kill myself like Communist blocks
    I’d argue it looks better then the glass dildos from Moscow or Warsaw (and soon Belgrade)

    • Replies: @Thulean Friend
    @Korenchkin

    I certainly appreciate contrarian opinions. I personally think it looks ugly and deformed. However, if the architect was going for a "modern" design, he should have gone balls to the walls. No compromises or half-assed attempts. He tried to mash together a vertical ship together with a normal non-descript brick building which made the whole attempt menaingless. As if he had a change of heart or a moment of hesitation.

    For example, compare this:

    https://i.imgur.com/sHEgW86.jpg

    to this:

    https://i.imgur.com/8ZxjAX7.jpg

    Even if you're lukewarm/skeptical on modern architecture, if you're going to do it, then at least do it thoroughly. Go all in or go home.


    I’d argue it looks better then the glass dildos

     

    https://i.imgur.com/fitdliK.jpg

    Even glass dildos can be done better or worse.

    Replies: @AP, @AP

  571. @Thulean Friend
    @AP


    Serbs are lighter
     
    Not my experience here in Sweden and we have a huge ex-yugo diaspora. Plus, if you're gonna cherrypick then I can do that also. Here is a demonstration of Serbian nationalists.

    https://i.imgur.com/jrTKyHz.jpg

    In my experience, Serbs, while being swarthier, have typically been better-behaved in my dealings with them. I've met quite a few of Albanians who I could have mistaken for an ethnic Swede by seeing them on the streets but who acted like complete trash, indistinguishable for ghetto arabs in any interaction.

    That said, I find nordicism to be incredibly stupid. I like blond and blue-eyed people for purely aesthetic reasons. There's something to be said for looking at a crowd of people and to some extent see yourself reflected in them. But this is a purely personal aesthetic preference. The notion that some Europeans are "better" because they are lighter is silly. Northern Russia is certainly less swarthy than France yet the latter is unmistakably more prosperous. It's just D&C bullshit of the lowest orders.

    Replies: @Korenchkin

    Balkan ultra-nationalist types are almost always indistinguishable from Turks and behave like the worst Gopnik/Vatnik stereotypes you can imagine, my theory is that their behaviour stems from insecurity about their appearance
    We are also not sending our best to Sweden, far from it, during the 90s uncountable amount of subhumans managed to squeeze in as “refugees” to Sweden while actual refugees got to go around homeless as the country was getting pillaged

    The Grenades from Grenade attacks in Sweden are Yugo surplus leftover from the 90s which the they smuggle into the country which let them in to save them from evil dictator (insert name here)

  572. @AP
    @AnonFromTN


    Did you read that whole page? BTW, Ukrainian-Americans are in the 25th place, not 22nd.
     
    I mistakenly wrote 23rd, not 22nd. But it is 25th out of 97.

    However, here are the other entrants:

    8. Russian American (2016): $77,841

    Worse yet, between Russian-Americans and Ukrainian-Americans there are 16 places. To add insult to injury, they are occupied, among others, by
     
    Most Russians include Jews. Jews are not a separate category. There are Israelis and Russians, tow of the richest groups on the census.

    Asians and Lebanese are of course wealthy. Iranians are rich exiles who fled the Revolution. There are few Bulgarians, they are probably some academics or elites. There is nothing surprising here.

    Compare Ukrainian Americans to most common Americans:

    1. Indian American (2016) : $110,026

    24. Italian American (2016) : $72,586
    25. Ukrainian American (2016): $72,449

    28. Scottish American (2016): $71,925[2]
    30. Swedish American (2016): $71,217
    31. Polish American (2016): $71,172
    43. English American (2016) : $67,663
    46. German American (2016): $67,306[2]
    47. Irish American (2016) : $66,688
    53. Scotch-Irish American (2016) : $64,187

    65. Cuban American : $57,000
    93. Mexican American : $38,000

    Replies: @AnonFromTN, @Rattus Norwegius, @Spisarevski

    There are few Bulgarians, they are probably some academics or elites. There is nothing surprising here.

    Something like half of the Bulgarians in America live in Chicago and can best be described as working class white niggers, listening to rap and everything (and the most tragically famous Bulgarian rapper and noted genetic waste is there too). The rest aren’t all that “elite” either.
    Keep coping though, owned by your own links haha.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Spisarevski


    Something like half of the Bulgarians in America live in Chicago and can best be described as working class white niggers, listening to rap and everything (and the most tragically famous Bulgarian rapper and noted genetic waste is there too). The rest aren’t all that “elite” either.
     
    You are wrong, as proven by the US census results which includes Bulgarians as one of the richest groups in the USA.

    I know three Bulgarians in the USA: a physicist and two guys who got MBAs and work in upper-middle management.

    So the small number of Bulgarians are rather wealthy.
  573. @Dmitry
    @Thorfinnsson

    Core Americans in terms of their relation to the land, are the primitive people who had ancestors in the same place for thousands of years, and can talk to the coyotes, and know the secrets of the cactus, and which were portrayed (i.e. the non-English brown ones) in the film "Last of the Mohicans".

    This is the people who have the most blood connection to the land, of course. Just as Celts have most ancestry connection to Ireland.

    On the other hand, "core American" in terms of relation to the abstract political system that was created in America and resulted in USA - they are surely, the English landowners, who have knowledge of John Locke, and desire for taxation only with representation, etc.

    Locke introduces a theory of property, where something can becomes your property if you add your labour to it.
    https://www.constitution.org/jl/2ndtr05.htm

    So then property, becomes accessible to anyone who can contribute mix their labour to the land (even if they are immigrants with no history of ancestors on the land).

    Locke writes very poetically...


    Thus this law of reason makes the deer that Indian's who hath killed it; it is allowed to be his goods, who hath bestowed his labour upon it, though before it was the common right of every one. And amongst those who are counted the civilized part of mankind, who have made and multiplied positive laws to determine property, this original law of nature, for the beginning of property, in what was before common, still takes place; and by virtue thereof, what fish any one catches in the ocean, that great and still remaining common of mankind; or what ambergrise any one takes up here, is by the labour that removes it out of that common state nature left it in, made his property, who takes that pains about it. And even amongst us, the hare that any one is hunting, is thought his who pursues her during the chase: for being a beast that is still looked upon as common, and no man's private possession; whoever has employed so much labour about any of that kind, as to find and pursue her, has thereby removed her from the state of nature, wherein she was common, and hath begun a property.
     

    Replies: @LondonBob

    The film has very different themes to the book ‘Last of the Mohicans’. The different worldview of an early American compared to the ideological propaganda of late twentieth centiry Jewish Hollywood. Indians are portrayed much more negatively, there is little conflict between colonists and British authorities and the martial prowess of British regulars is accurately portrayed.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @LondonBob

    I don't know the book.

    But Last of the Mohicans - this is definitely the most stylish and aesthetic film about American history.

    In the 1980s, Hollywood films are some of the best of any cinematic history. Last of the Mohicans, Bladerunner, Aliens.

    I wonder why America cannot make great films like that now. It's only 30 years later, and yet in the 21st century nobody can make films of even half of this level.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaQeVnN6pUc

    Replies: @Kent Nationalist, @songbird

  574. @LondonBob
    @AP

    We must forge the new Soviet American man.

    Replies: @Korenchkin

    Sugar, corn and everthing soy, these were the ingredients chosen to create the perfect American goy
    But Professor Jewtonioum accidentally added an extra ingredient to the concoction, chemical Bn.

  575. @reiner Tor
    @Beckow

    Swiss trains are not very fast (mountains and all that), but I don't think they're any slower than trains in Slovakia.


    Switzerland is not that well organised.
     
    LOL

    the pace is leisurely
     
    The Swiss don't work a lot. They work well. In that, they are pretty similar to the Japanese (though the Japanese have the edge, obviously). The Japanese also work more, at least nominally (though much of the time they spend nominally at work is not connected to doing the job).

    and incompetence quite common.
     
    Common relative to what? They now have lots of non-Swiss working everywhere, almost a quarter of their population is foreigner, and that number doesn't include naturalized foreigners or half-foreigners and their descendants.

    Replies: @anonymous coward, @Dmitry

    Beckow is right. Indigenous Swiss are cow farmers are not very quick-witted, and of course the Albanian refuse that are now 25% of their population are even worse.

    Their valleys and mountains are naturally conducive to small governments and tight communities, this makes everything 100 times easier and smother.

    Their big talent is keeping peace and good will and not turning into a North Caucasus or Papua New Guinea, not technology or organization.

    P.S. Lenin lived in Switzerland for a while, his ideal version of government was the Swiss commune, lol.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @anonymous coward

    Look up the number of Swiss Nobel laureates. Swiss farmers who are still working in farming (as opposed to Swiss farmers 200 years ago) are, however, not incredibly smart, that much is true.

    Replies: @Beckow, @RadicalCenter

    , @AP
    @anonymous coward


    Beckow is right. Indigenous Swiss are cow farmers are not very quick-witted
     
    If you say so, then in this case Beckow must be wrong.
  576. @anonymous coward
    @reiner Tor

    Beckow is right. Indigenous Swiss are cow farmers are not very quick-witted, and of course the Albanian refuse that are now 25% of their population are even worse.

    Their valleys and mountains are naturally conducive to small governments and tight communities, this makes everything 100 times easier and smother.

    Their big talent is keeping peace and good will and not turning into a North Caucasus or Papua New Guinea, not technology or organization.

    P.S. Lenin lived in Switzerland for a while, his ideal version of government was the Swiss commune, lol.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @AP

    Look up the number of Swiss Nobel laureates. Swiss farmers who are still working in farming (as opposed to Swiss farmers 200 years ago) are, however, not incredibly smart, that much is true.

    • Replies: @Beckow
    @reiner Tor

    Ever since the esteemed Barack received a 'Nobel', I am a bit skeptical about the whole thing. I have visited the Nobel Museum and a more annoying self-congratulatory collection of mostly dreamy nonsense would be hard to find. Sorry, no points there.

    Swiss are generally quite slow-witted, that's something even they admit. Their organization is on the heavy side, too much intrusive stuff, too often. They are rich and peaceful, good for them. But there is a reason other countries have not been too successful copying the Swiss model - it is suited to the specific Swiss geography and took a few hundred years to develop. And then there are the Albanians, enough said...

    It is 250 km from Zurich to Geneva and it takes almost 3 hours by train. Driving not much better, traffic jams everywhere. There are no mountains or tunnels in that part of Switzerland - Swiss are not advanced or fast, just competent and honest in doing the basic mediocre stuff they do (I wish others would learn it too).

    Comparing everything to each other countries is a silly nihilistic argument - I prefer to look at it based on its merits, you can always find others doing stuff worse. In this case the fastest IC trains in Slovakia-Czechia happen to be faster than the Swiss ones. But they are often late. Maybe too ambitious?

    Replies: @AP, @reiner Tor

    , @RadicalCenter
    @reiner Tor

    Yeah, but the confluence of the languages, cuisines, and styles of the German, French, and Italian peoples goes a long way — as does a plethora of German/French, German/Italian, French/Italian etc. women :) :)

  577. According to this genetic map of Europe (which might’ve been previously posted in discussions at these threads), Ukrainians are more closely related to Russians than Poles:

    https://brilliantmaps.com/the-genetic-map-of-europe/

    As per this map, the differences between Germans and Austrians jives with what someone at this thread brought up about the two.

    On another matter raised at this thread, there’s a good share of dark complexioned Albanians. Likewise with some Serbs and Bulgarians with other Serbs and Bulgarians looking quite Russian.

  578. @AP
    @anonymous coward

    Your pattern of always being wrong continues. "Little Russian" was the term for the Ukrainian language. So the first significant example of Ukrainian literature, Aneida by Kotlyarevski, was called Little Russian:

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/38/Eneida_Osipov_Kotlayrevsky.jpg/1280px-Eneida_Osipov_Kotlayrevsky.jpg

    So according to the 1897 census, Kiev guberniya was 79% Ukrainian (Little Russian) speaking, 12% Yiddish speaking, 6% Russian speaking, and 2% Polish speaking.

    The Kharkov guberniya was 81% Ukrainian speaking and 18% Russian speaking.

    The Kherson guberniya (which consisted of southern Ukraine, including Odessa but not Crimea) was 53.5% Ukrainian-speaking, 21% Russian-speaking, 12% Yiddish-speaking, 5.5% Romanian-speaking, 4.5% German-speaking, 1% Polish-speaking.

    The Poltava guberniya was the purest Ukrainian guberniya (the western ones had many Poles and Jews, the southern ones and Kharkiv had many Russians). It was 93% Ukrainian-speaking, 4% Yiddish-speaking and 3% Russian-speaking. It is no coincidence that the Ukrainian literary language is based on the Little Russian speech of Poltava.

    Replies: @anonymous coward, @Gerard1234

    “Little Russian” was the term for the Ukrainian language.

    No, because the so-called “Ukrainian language” was invented by Soviet authorities and refined by Galician emigrants from Canada after 1991.

    So the first significant example of Ukrainian literature, Aneida by Kotlyarevski, was called Little Russian

    No. “Aneida” has to be translated into the modern so-called “Ukrainian language”, whereas it is very readable to a modern Russian speaker, even if obviously in a colloquial dialect.

    Furthermore, “Aneida” was a joke, an attempt to juxtapose classical Greece with a rustic colloquial Russian dialect. It’s a Russian work written in Russian.

    • Replies: @AP
    @anonymous coward


    No, because the so-called “Ukrainian language” was invented by Soviet authorities and refined by Galician emigrants from Canada after 1991.
     
    Just because you, who are wrong basically 100% of the time, claim something doesn't make it so.

    So the first significant example of Ukrainian literature, Aneida by Kotlyarevski, was called Little Russian

    No. “Aneida” has to be translated into the modern so-called “Ukrainian language”, whereas it is very readable to a modern Russian speaker, even if obviously in a colloquial dialect.
     
    I posted an early 19th century edition; the orthography is in the Russian of that time, but the language is obviously about the same as modern Ukrainian. As close as early 19th century English is to modern English (and much closer than Shakespeare to modern English).

    Furthermore, “Aneida” was a joke, an attempt to juxtapose classical Greece with a rustic colloquial Russian dialect. It’s a Russian work written in Russian.

     

    I posted it, there was a Russian and Little Russian version. Obviously the latter was not "written in Russian."

    Replies: @anonymous coward

  579. @reiner Tor
    @Simpleguest


    We’ll never know how good Swiss are at running a system that ferries their entire population in a day, every day, all year long, like Moscow subway does.
     
    Well, I know how good the Swiss would be at running such a system (quite good, as they are quite good at organizing anything), but I agree with you wholeheartedly that you will never know that.

    Replies: @Simpleguest

    “Well, I know how good the Swiss would be at running such a system (quite good, as they are quite good at organizing anything) ….”

    LOL. He knows.

    Let me remind you where we started:

    “Russians are usually not thought of as supreme organizers, like, say, the Swiss, yet the war was an effort which they organized pretty well (after the initial setbacks).”

    In all seriousness, you compare a total war effort with Swiss trains?

    Listen, you confuse individual discipline/law observance with organisational skills.
    Yes, Swiss, like most northern westerners, are well disciplined and strictly observe the laws, unlike most of Slavs, and that is why their society seems more organized. But the “drill” produces rather “numb” people. No wander Slavs call the Germanics “Nemci”.

    For some reason, this discussion reminds of a monument located in Munich and dedicated to the 20 or 25 thousand Bavarians that joined Napoleon’s Grand Army in its advance on Russia.
    Not a single man returned back alive.
    What does it say of Western discipline, organisation and stupidity?

    • Replies: @Korenchkin
    @Simpleguest

    The name for Germans is Niemtsi (this is the phonetic version in English, every language spells it different) it means "Mutes" since they could't speak Slavic languages unlike the Slavyani, the people of the word (Slovo)

    Though Germans feeling more "numb" to Slavs is a legit thing, one that I myself experienced when talking to some Germans in the past and my friends and family who visited Germany also described something similar

  580. @reiner Tor
    @anonymous coward

    Look up the number of Swiss Nobel laureates. Swiss farmers who are still working in farming (as opposed to Swiss farmers 200 years ago) are, however, not incredibly smart, that much is true.

    Replies: @Beckow, @RadicalCenter

    Ever since the esteemed Barack received a ‘Nobel’, I am a bit skeptical about the whole thing. I have visited the Nobel Museum and a more annoying self-congratulatory collection of mostly dreamy nonsense would be hard to find. Sorry, no points there.

    Swiss are generally quite slow-witted, that’s something even they admit. Their organization is on the heavy side, too much intrusive stuff, too often. They are rich and peaceful, good for them. But there is a reason other countries have not been too successful copying the Swiss model – it is suited to the specific Swiss geography and took a few hundred years to develop. And then there are the Albanians, enough said…

    It is 250 km from Zurich to Geneva and it takes almost 3 hours by train. Driving not much better, traffic jams everywhere. There are no mountains or tunnels in that part of Switzerland – Swiss are not advanced or fast, just competent and honest in doing the basic mediocre stuff they do (I wish others would learn it too).

    Comparing everything to each other countries is a silly nihilistic argument – I prefer to look at it based on its merits, you can always find others doing stuff worse. In this case the fastest IC trains in Slovakia-Czechia happen to be faster than the Swiss ones. But they are often late. Maybe too ambitious?

    • Replies: @AP
    @Beckow


    Swiss are generally quite slow-witted, that’s something even they admit.
     
    That's because they are modest.

    https://isteve.blogspot.com/2013/12/overall-pisa-rankings-include-america.html

    PISA scores, Mean

    Finland 529
    Netherlands 519
    Switzerland 518
    Germany 515
    Czech Republic 500
    Denmark 498
    Spain 490
    Hungary 487

    Slovakia 472
    American Latinos 465


    Slovaks way closer to US Latinos than they are to the Swiss. Or to the Hungarians.

    Replies: @Beckow

    , @reiner Tor
    @Beckow


    Barack received a ‘Nobel’
     
    Nobel Peace Prize vs. Nobel Prize in Physics.

    Maybe too ambitious?
     
    There's a case where being less ambitious was the smart thing in ww2. The Red Army in 1941-42 tried a number of elaborate offensive operations where they'd bypass German strong points and cut them off and let them get destroyed by lack of supplies. However, the more experienced and better trained Germans simply cut off the advancing Soviets from their strongpoints and destroyed the advancing Red Army units. There were several such disasters, even after 1942 (after 1943 less serious ones, but in 1943 the Third Battle of Kharkov is a famous example; though the Second Battle of Kharkov in spring and early summer 1942 was way worse), so the Soviets realized they were incapable of doing that against the better trained Germans.

    So instead the Soviets just attacked German strong points frontally. They also tried to attack the full length of the frontline (or at least many different points), even when they only had a realistic chance of success at one place. (To prevent the Germans from reinforcing their most threatened sectors.) This seemed to be a stupid thing to do and led to enormous casualties, but it made it possible to destroy those strongpoints (at the cost of enormous casualties, of course; and often even that wasn't possible either, whenever the Germans were too strong or the Soviet attacks too inept). So using a less sophisticated and costly (but working) solution was what the Soviets did.

    However, it's generally recognized that the German idea of bypassing strongpoints in a competent way and not letting those strongpoints do anything useful was superior to what the Soviets did. They just needed to have supreme competence all along the chain of command, something the Soviets lacked but the Germans didn't.

    The high command was not stupid in either case (though arguably Germany shouldn't have started the war at all, because Hitler set unwinnable goals which proved impossible to reach, but I'm talking about the operational level; on the top level, Stalin was more competent than Hitler, though he was also insane), but the German military was clearly superior in quality, because they could execute the more sophisticated thing.

    Replies: @Beckow

  581. @Simpleguest
    @reiner Tor

    "Well, I know how good the Swiss would be at running such a system (quite good, as they are quite good at organizing anything) ...."

    LOL. He knows.

    Let me remind you where we started:

    "Russians are usually not thought of as supreme organizers, like, say, the Swiss, yet the war was an effort which they organized pretty well (after the initial setbacks)."

    In all seriousness, you compare a total war effort with Swiss trains?

    Listen, you confuse individual discipline/law observance with organisational skills.
    Yes, Swiss, like most northern westerners, are well disciplined and strictly observe the laws, unlike most of Slavs, and that is why their society seems more organized. But the "drill" produces rather "numb" people. No wander Slavs call the Germanics "Nemci".

    For some reason, this discussion reminds of a monument located in Munich and dedicated to the 20 or 25 thousand Bavarians that joined Napoleon's Grand Army in its advance on Russia.
    Not a single man returned back alive.
    What does it say of Western discipline, organisation and stupidity?

    Replies: @Korenchkin

    The name for Germans is Niemtsi (this is the phonetic version in English, every language spells it different) it means “Mutes” since they could’t speak Slavic languages unlike the Slavyani, the people of the word (Slovo)

    Though Germans feeling more “numb” to Slavs is a legit thing, one that I myself experienced when talking to some Germans in the past and my friends and family who visited Germany also described something similar

  582. @reiner Tor
    @anonymous coward

    Siberia was easy to conquer, because it wasn't densely populated, and its population was quite backwards anyway. But first you needed firearms to defeat the nomads who blocked your access to Siberia. It helped a great deal that the nomads' empire was in the disintegrating phase, but their decisive military advantage was destroyed by firearms.

    Replies: @melanf

    Siberia was easy to conquer, because it wasn’t densely populated, and its population was quite backwards anyway. But first you needed firearms to defeat the nomads who blocked your access to Siberia. It helped a great deal that the nomads’ empire was in the disintegrating phase, but their decisive military advantage was destroyed by firearms.

    What’s the argument about? If the Swiss lived on the site of the ancient Russian principalities, they would not be Swiss but someone else. Russians, if they lived in the Alps, would not be Russians (but rather something like Czechs)

    It is pointless to argue about the conquest of Siberia – the Moscow Principality/Russian Tsardom needed to defeat much more powerful opponents in the West in order to expand to the East. And the conquest itself was not an obvious phenomenon – for example, the Japanese did not conquer Siberia, although they had firearms and geographical access.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @melanf

    The point was that the commenter Simpleguest argued that Russia being big was a virtue.

    It was mostly due to Russia's location next to nearly uninhabited areas. Those areas posed a huge danger before the advent of firearms, but not so much afterwards.

    Regarding Japan, being an island nation, they were certainly more isolated from those areas than Russia. Anyway, I'm not saying Russia had zero merits in conquering those areas: they needed to get their shit together, unify, and be adventurous enough to even try. For example Poland could've colonized Siberia if it was under a strong central government, but after the 16th century its government was in such disarray that it would've been unable to do so even if it was located in Russia's place. The Anglos, having colonized entire continents, would certainly have been able to colonize Siberia. The French would've colonized places like North America (only managed Quebec because of the intense competition from the Anglos), but they conquered much of Africa and a few similar places. (Those were, unfortunately for the French, relatively densely populated.) The Spaniards and Portuguese colonized a huge continent an ocean away all by themselves, so it's unlikely they wouldn't have done the same to Siberia, had they been next to it. The Germans, with their Drang nach Osten, managed to pushed their borders significantly to the east against densely populated and relatively developed European countries, despite being internally balkanized. Even the Italians built a small colonial empire for themselves, once they unified.

    So it's unlikely that Russia's eastern conquest (upon which Russia's greatness lies) would not have been replicated by any other European peoples. It was a mixed blessing to live in Eastern Europe (the Mongol conquest happened because of this), but after the advent of firearms, the steppe peoples posed no longer a serious danger, but presented an opportunity of conquest.


    Russians, if they lived in the Alps, would not be Russians (but rather something like Czechs)
     
    I agree about this point. As I said, my point was not that Russians are or were especially bad or anything like that. Just simply that them being big was not a virtue (it was more due to a mix of circumstances and Russians being Europeans, the latter of which is not a virtue relative to other Europeans).
  583. @Korenchkin
    @Simpleguest

    It isn't just a feeling
    We speak a Slavic language and use a version of the Cyrillic Alphabet (designed for Slavic langauges and originates from South Slavs incidentally), in many cases our language is closer to the older Slavic pronounciations then languages like Polish or Russian
    We are also Eastern Orthodox Christians which is a majority Slavic branch of Christianity
    There is a history of Serbs who fled the Ottomans settling in Russian-Polish borderlands, theres even a place called New Serbia in the middle of Ukraine, though I think the name fell out of use
    Serbia and other South Slavs were also part of the Slavophile circlejerk in the 19th Century which resulted in the disaterous Pan-Slavic project of Yugoslavia

    Hell the Black Hand which killed Franz Ferdinand was a Pan-Slavic organization, based in Serbia (though supported by British Agents)

    Replies: @AP, @Simpleguest

    “Serbia and other South Slavs were also part of the Slavophile circlejerk in the 19th Century which resulted in the disaterous Pan-Slavic project of Yugoslavia”

    Out of curiosity, why was Yugoslavia a disastrous project?
    In all honesty, it seemed like it solved all, be it past or future, problems of every Yugoslav ethnic group.

    For instance, since you are Serbian, all Serbs lived, for better or worse, in one country, didn’t they?
    What are Serbs, going to do now, that Yugoslavia is no more?
    Recreate the Serbian medieval state, perhaps?
    Well get in line, with the Bulgars, Illirians, Byzantians, Ottomans, Croats etc.

    Apologies for being a bit harsh, but that’s the reality of folks living over there.

    • Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous
    @Simpleguest


    Out of curiosity, why was Yugoslavia a disastrous project?
    In all honesty, it seemed like it solved all, be it past or future, problems of every Yugoslav ethnic group.

     

    Yes, Yugoslavia was absolutely not a disastrous project at all and it solved all past and future problems of every ethnic group in the region. This was wonderfully demonstrated during certain events from 1941-1945 and 1991-2001, plus, of course, the situation of the present Balkans and former Yugoslavia ever since 2001 also confirms this ...

    What are Serbs, going to do now, that Yugoslavia is no more?
    Recreate the Serbian medieval state, perhaps?
    Well get in line, with the Bulgars, Illirians, Byzantians, Ottomans, Croats etc.

    Apologies for being a bit harsh, but that’s the reality of folks living over there.

     

    First, you should tell the Russians that the USSR was wonderful for them and all their neighbors as it solved all past and future problems that they ever had or ever will have with each other. Then, you should tell the Russians that their nationalism or future aims and hopes are no different than those of their Svidomy or Muslim/Asian neighbors ambitions.

    Can you begin to understand just how blatantly ignorant, and absolutely uninformed your statements are now?

    Apologies for being a bit harsh, but that’s the reality of folks living over there.

     

    You should not make arrogant and bold statements about a subject matter which you have demonstrated a blatant lack of understanding and real knowledge about.

    Replies: @Simpleguest, @AnonFromTN

    , @Korenchkin
    @Simpleguest


    why was Yugoslavia a disastrous project
     
    You said in the other post that you were talking about post WW2 Yugoslavia, so let's go over some facts that Yugonostalgics like to ignore
    Firstly after WW2 there were massacres of WW1 Serb war veterans, successfull peasants (my family just barely dodged this fate, by having their farm wrecked by the war and no longer being successfull) and other useful individuals that Communists like to murder

    Then came the border redrawings, the biggest loser was Serbia, having millions of Serbs cut out and having things like Montenegrin identity enforced by the state
    Serbia was the only republic with 2 autonomous provinces within it, the millions of Serbs in Croatia, Bosnia, Macedonia and Montenegro got no such benefit
    https://www.rastko.rs/istorija/srbi-balkan/img/fry4b.jpg

    Industry from the Serbian republic was moved to "punish Serbia for it's imperialism" towards Western republics, this is what we get for covering Bosnia, Croatia and Slovenia during Versailles and ensuring they don't suffer the penalties of being the loser state in the biggest war in history
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relocation_of_Serbian_industry_during_the_Informbiro_period

    Refugees from Enver Hoxha were allowed to settle in Kosovo and Macedonia (both were already flashpoints but this just put more dry wood on the pile for future fires), the Macedonian region where the Albanians settled was once a Serb majority region and Kosovo is one of the cradle provinces of Serbia (Alongside Rashka and Montenegro) now they're overrun by those animals
    The plan was to annex Albania as another Yugo republic but Stalin cockblocked Tito

    Everyone was moved from the countryside into tiny bugman apartments in various cities and fertility collapsed (this was a problem for every republic tho)

    And above all it FAILED, nobody would be hating on Soviet Communists today if they created a successfull socialist paradise and nobody would be hating on Yugoslavists if they didn't fuck it all up after dear leader died, leaving us with less land then in fucking 1914 and with North Korea tier indoctrinated boomers and totally blackpilled Zoomers

    Recreate the Serbian medieval state, perhaps?
     
    No, we had a Serbian state in the 19th and 20th Century, so we have a lot of work cut out for us on that front
    The legacy of things like Dušans code and the Serbian constitution from the 19th Century serve as proof that we were not total idiotic tribal savages and for good national myth making (something all nations need)

    What needs to be adressed is the massive blackpill of society and to end the cargo cults and degeneracy fests, we've seen a lot of positive development recently but there is a long path to go
    We were punched into the dirt several times during the 20th Century but we survived, we pick ourselves up and we carry on

    Replies: @Simpleguest

  584. @Spisarevski
    @AP


    There are few Bulgarians, they are probably some academics or elites. There is nothing surprising here.
     
    Something like half of the Bulgarians in America live in Chicago and can best be described as working class white niggers, listening to rap and everything (and the most tragically famous Bulgarian rapper and noted genetic waste is there too). The rest aren't all that "elite" either.
    Keep coping though, owned by your own links haha.

    Replies: @AP

    Something like half of the Bulgarians in America live in Chicago and can best be described as working class white niggers, listening to rap and everything (and the most tragically famous Bulgarian rapper and noted genetic waste is there too). The rest aren’t all that “elite” either.

    You are wrong, as proven by the US census results which includes Bulgarians as one of the richest groups in the USA.

    I know three Bulgarians in the USA: a physicist and two guys who got MBAs and work in upper-middle management.

    So the small number of Bulgarians are rather wealthy.

  585. @Korenchkin
    @AP


    25% Slav
     
    25% R1a you mean (and that % might be distorted due to a lack of proper studies), are Lithuanians, Latvians, Tajiks and Pashtuns Slavs then?
    We don't even know if the Proto-Slavs were a pure R1a group
    And this mixing of Slavs and Dinarics happened over 1200 years ago and was a natural process, not a state sponsored action (there was no Slavia funding an East Balkan Company to set up colonies)
    South Slavs were speaking a Slavic language since Slavs began being recorded in history, the oldest South Slavic documments are also over 1000 years old and are some of the oldest recorded examples of Slavic language
    Slavophilia originating from South Slavs did not come from some larp to imitate Russia or Poland, it was a movement originating from efforts to preserve Slavic language, religion and culture in face of assimilation by the Ottomans, Italians, Germans and Hungarians (similar movements appeared in Bohemia aswell, which resulted in the Prague Slavic Congress), so the preservation of some old Slavic custom or way of speaking came out of a conscious effort, not by being cut off from some home colonial state

    And you are still dodging the best point, Germanics are split into different but closely related genetic groups just like Slavs, yet they don't engage into this sort of "not real Germanic" talk

    Replies: @AP, @TheTotallyAnonymous

    And you are still dodging the best point, Germanics are split into different but closely related genetic groups just like Slavs

    Because there is no such thing as a real “pan-Germanic” movement and no ridiculous spectacle of, say, African-Americans (who speak a Germanic language) bragging about being “Germanics” and the same people as other Germanics.

    • Replies: @Korenchkin
    @AP


    Because there is no such thing as a real “pan-Germanic” movement
     
    There isn't a real pan-Slavic movement either, though both existed in the past
    But that it entirely beside the point

    African-Americans (who speak a Germanic language) bragging about being “Germanics” and the same people as other Germanics.
     
    Again, another false equivalence
    Southern Slavs have been Slavs since Slavs were recorded in history, them not having the same genetics as Northern groups does not disqualify them just as Germans and Swedes do not try to qualify eachother as "real Germanics"
    Neither do Southern Slavs claim to be the same people, I repeat, Serbs do not claim to be Russians nor do Croats claim to be Poles but they can easily assimilate in eachothers societies because they are very similar but still distinct
    Try seeing an African or Native American fully assimilate in a European country

    In fact, the reasons the New Serbia region vanished was because the Serbs there assimilated so completely that there was no distinction between them and the local Russians/Ukranians/Poles anymore
    African-Americans had an entirely alien culture from another continent imposed onto them, South Slavs were created out of a mingling of two European groups who were familiar to eachother, South Slavic culture and language was created, modified and preserved by the South Slavs themselves, it wasn't created in the Dnieper region and then exported by some organised colonization in the 15th Century

    The comparison to Negros would make sense if you were talking about the Russian speaking Central Asians or the Russified Yakuts, but it doesn't work in the context of the South Slavs

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @AP

  586. @anonymous coward
    @reiner Tor

    Beckow is right. Indigenous Swiss are cow farmers are not very quick-witted, and of course the Albanian refuse that are now 25% of their population are even worse.

    Their valleys and mountains are naturally conducive to small governments and tight communities, this makes everything 100 times easier and smother.

    Their big talent is keeping peace and good will and not turning into a North Caucasus or Papua New Guinea, not technology or organization.

    P.S. Lenin lived in Switzerland for a while, his ideal version of government was the Swiss commune, lol.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @AP

    Beckow is right. Indigenous Swiss are cow farmers are not very quick-witted

    If you say so, then in this case Beckow must be wrong.

  587. @Anatoly Karlin
    @Annatar

    While I agree with the demographic arguments, this is stretching things too far.

    The difference of 6M would have included the wounded (whether temporary or permanent), as well as soldiers released back into the workforce (e.g. technical specialists - the USSR was more assiduous about conserving those, perhaps because they had relatively fewer of them than Germany). They are not comparable to Germans who were flat out killed/captured.

    Replies: @Annatar

    It’s true Soviet losses later in the war, 1942 and onwards were mostly wounded and millions of men were also demobilised after being recruited, however neither of those things were true in 1941. Virtually all of the Soviet losses in 1941 were due to soldiers being killed and captured due to the encirclement battles, it’s only from 1942 onwards that most soviet losses become wounded. In addition, the demobilisation of existing troops to serve as labour was only done in 1942 when the soviet army had reached a size that was deemed sufficient to hold the entire front as well as conduct offensives.

  588. @anonymous coward
    @AP


    “Little Russian” was the term for the Ukrainian language.
     
    No, because the so-called "Ukrainian language" was invented by Soviet authorities and refined by Galician emigrants from Canada after 1991.

    So the first significant example of Ukrainian literature, Aneida by Kotlyarevski, was called Little Russian
     
    No. "Aneida" has to be translated into the modern so-called "Ukrainian language", whereas it is very readable to a modern Russian speaker, even if obviously in a colloquial dialect.

    Furthermore, "Aneida" was a joke, an attempt to juxtapose classical Greece with a rustic colloquial Russian dialect. It's a Russian work written in Russian.

    Replies: @AP

    No, because the so-called “Ukrainian language” was invented by Soviet authorities and refined by Galician emigrants from Canada after 1991.

    Just because you, who are wrong basically 100% of the time, claim something doesn’t make it so.

    So the first significant example of Ukrainian literature, Aneida by Kotlyarevski, was called Little Russian

    No. “Aneida” has to be translated into the modern so-called “Ukrainian language”, whereas it is very readable to a modern Russian speaker, even if obviously in a colloquial dialect.

    I posted an early 19th century edition; the orthography is in the Russian of that time, but the language is obviously about the same as modern Ukrainian. As close as early 19th century English is to modern English (and much closer than Shakespeare to modern English).

    Furthermore, “Aneida” was a joke, an attempt to juxtapose classical Greece with a rustic colloquial Russian dialect. It’s a Russian work written in Russian.

    I posted it, there was a Russian and Little Russian version. Obviously the latter was not “written in Russian.”

    • Agree: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @anonymous coward
    @AP

    Kotlyarevski published in St. Petersburg, not in Kiev. His target audience was educated Russian speakers, not "Little Russian" swineherders.

    His "Aeneid" was a joke, meant for Russian ears and Russian speakers.

    What you call the "Ukrainian language" is a fake and gay invented language like Esperanto, created in the 20th century.

    That is fake and gay language is partly based on a dumb Russian joke only makes it faker and gayer, it doesn't make it more legitimate.

    P.S. Kotlyarevsky's "Aeneid" is incredibly crass, even by modern debased standards. Venus is a "slut", Zeus is "swilling moonshine", "sons of bitches" everywhere, etc.

    P.P.S. His "Aeneid" is full of tortured syntax and strange words that aren't part of colloquial modern Russian or the fake and gay modern "Ukrainian". He must have been inventing words to a certain extent.

    Replies: @AP

  589. @Korenchkin
    @Annatar

    The Russian Empire also had a massive manpower advantage yet it folded under much less pressure on the frontlines
    Difference was the willingless to sacrifice lives, infrastructure and resources in order to buy time and wear the enemy down
    Imagine if those encirclements happened under the 1914 Tsarist system, they would've instantly collapsed
    The expectation (from everyone really, not just Germans) was that the USSR would fold just like the Russian Empire did and descend into Civil War, this was what made the difference
    Had the party fled Moscow to catch a boat in Vladivostok and all the soldiers started deserting or joining the enemy (a missed opportunity for the Germans) then no advantage could've saved them
    Just as the French held firm during WW1 in spite of the horrifying opening battles of the war and eventually wore down the Germans

    Something similar happened during the British conquest of India, only on a smaller scale, treachery, technological disatvantage and lack of unity allowed a smaller force to conquer a giant section of Eurasia, in fact Hitler cited Colonial British India as a good system to implement on Eastern Europe after it had been conquered

    I am not defending Communism or actions of Communists here, just pointing out that the refusal to give up despite what seemed at first to be overwhelming odds did make a large difference

    Replies: @Mikhail, @Anatoly Karlin, @Vishnugupta, @Annatar

    I agree that the USSR displayed far more willpower and tolerance to sustain losses than the Russian Empire, it was arguably the main advantage of the Stalinist system over the Imperial Russian system in warfare.

  590. @Beckow
    @reiner Tor

    Ever since the esteemed Barack received a 'Nobel', I am a bit skeptical about the whole thing. I have visited the Nobel Museum and a more annoying self-congratulatory collection of mostly dreamy nonsense would be hard to find. Sorry, no points there.

    Swiss are generally quite slow-witted, that's something even they admit. Their organization is on the heavy side, too much intrusive stuff, too often. They are rich and peaceful, good for them. But there is a reason other countries have not been too successful copying the Swiss model - it is suited to the specific Swiss geography and took a few hundred years to develop. And then there are the Albanians, enough said...

    It is 250 km from Zurich to Geneva and it takes almost 3 hours by train. Driving not much better, traffic jams everywhere. There are no mountains or tunnels in that part of Switzerland - Swiss are not advanced or fast, just competent and honest in doing the basic mediocre stuff they do (I wish others would learn it too).

    Comparing everything to each other countries is a silly nihilistic argument - I prefer to look at it based on its merits, you can always find others doing stuff worse. In this case the fastest IC trains in Slovakia-Czechia happen to be faster than the Swiss ones. But they are often late. Maybe too ambitious?

    Replies: @AP, @reiner Tor

    Swiss are generally quite slow-witted, that’s something even they admit.

    That’s because they are modest.

    https://isteve.blogspot.com/2013/12/overall-pisa-rankings-include-america.html

    PISA scores, Mean

    Finland 529
    Netherlands 519
    Switzerland 518
    Germany 515
    Czech Republic 500
    Denmark 498
    Spain 490
    Hungary 487

    Slovakia 472
    American Latinos 465

    Slovaks way closer to US Latinos than they are to the Swiss. Or to the Hungarians.

    • LOL: Kent Nationalist
    • Replies: @Beckow
    @AP

    I can assure you that we can piss with the best of them. And our women are a lot better looking than the average pear-shaped Swiss maiden.

    You used to claim loudly that Latina chicanas beat us in math, what's with that? Looks like you were making it up. And I was just embarking on a chica hunting trip to improve my evolutionary odds. What am I supposed to do now? Finland? you can't be serious, that uber-white stuff doesn't age well, and they relax in an actual oven. Weird stuff.

    Replies: @AP

  591. @Epigon
    @Annatar


    To give an idea of how extreme those losses are, the Germans lost for the whole duration of the war on the eastern front, 4 million men killed and captured,
     
    Nonsense.
    Where did the German forces disappear, then? Where did their manpower evaporate? It would be extremely interesting to take a look at your breakdown of German military strength, recruited, lost on a per-year basis.

    It's like those people who take German AFV kill and loss claims at face value.

    Or that idiot Krivosheev adding all losses from Soviet reports and claiming 96500 lost Soviet AFVs, which was immediately taken up by those same imbeciles who parroted figures of 26000 Soviet tanks at the start of Barbarossa.
    Imagine their shock when presented with Soviet tank inventory at the end of war and yearly production, Lend-Lease figures, and finding out how ridiculously wrong they are.

    Replies: @Annatar

    German official records suggest the military sustained around 2.7 million killed and missing through to January 31 1945 on the eastern front, most scholars estimate further losses of around 600,000 killed and captured in February, March and April at most for 3.3 million overall. The overall figure itself has been criticised by many historians as being between 15 to 20% to low. That’s why I gave a figure of 4 million which is an appropriate upward adjustment of German casualty figures in my opinion and represents a more maximal estimate of German losses.

  592. @Korenchkin
    @Thulean Friend

    This is gonna be an unpopular opinion but I think it looks neat, it's not something you'd often see and it is interesting to look at unlike most modern architecture and doesn't make me want to kill myself like Communist blocks
    I'd argue it looks better then the glass dildos from Moscow or Warsaw (and soon Belgrade)

    Replies: @Thulean Friend

    I certainly appreciate contrarian opinions. I personally think it looks ugly and deformed. However, if the architect was going for a “modern” design, he should have gone balls to the walls. No compromises or half-assed attempts. He tried to mash together a vertical ship together with a normal non-descript brick building which made the whole attempt menaingless. As if he had a change of heart or a moment of hesitation.

    For example, compare this:

    to this:

    Even if you’re lukewarm/skeptical on modern architecture, if you’re going to do it, then at least do it thoroughly. Go all in or go home.

    I’d argue it looks better then the glass dildos


    Even glass dildos can be done better or worse.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Thulean Friend

    The first one is really disturbing, like some alien predator snacking on the poor old building.

    The pedestrians in the photo fleeing in terror would be appropriate.

    Replies: @AP

    , @AP
    @Thulean Friend

    The first one is really disturbing, like some alien predator snacking on the poor old building.

    The pedestrians in the photo fleeing in terror would be appropriate.


    https://i.imgur.com/sHEgW86.jpg

  593. @Simpleguest
    @Korenchkin

    "Serbia and other South Slavs were also part of the Slavophile circlejerk in the 19th Century which resulted in the disaterous Pan-Slavic project of Yugoslavia"

    Out of curiosity, why was Yugoslavia a disastrous project?
    In all honesty, it seemed like it solved all, be it past or future, problems of every Yugoslav ethnic group.

    For instance, since you are Serbian, all Serbs lived, for better or worse, in one country, didn't they?
    What are Serbs, going to do now, that Yugoslavia is no more?
    Recreate the Serbian medieval state, perhaps?
    Well get in line, with the Bulgars, Illirians, Byzantians, Ottomans, Croats etc.

    Apologies for being a bit harsh, but that's the reality of folks living over there.

    Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous, @Korenchkin

    Out of curiosity, why was Yugoslavia a disastrous project?
    In all honesty, it seemed like it solved all, be it past or future, problems of every Yugoslav ethnic group.

    Yes, Yugoslavia was absolutely not a disastrous project at all and it solved all past and future problems of every ethnic group in the region. This was wonderfully demonstrated during certain events from 1941-1945 and 1991-2001, plus, of course, the situation of the present Balkans and former Yugoslavia ever since 2001 also confirms this …

    What are Serbs, going to do now, that Yugoslavia is no more?
    Recreate the Serbian medieval state, perhaps?
    Well get in line, with the Bulgars, Illirians, Byzantians, Ottomans, Croats etc.

    Apologies for being a bit harsh, but that’s the reality of folks living over there.

    First, you should tell the Russians that the USSR was wonderful for them and all their neighbors as it solved all past and future problems that they ever had or ever will have with each other. Then, you should tell the Russians that their nationalism or future aims and hopes are no different than those of their Svidomy or Muslim/Asian neighbors ambitions.

    Can you begin to understand just how blatantly ignorant, and absolutely uninformed your statements are now?

    Apologies for being a bit harsh, but that’s the reality of folks living over there.

    You should not make arrogant and bold statements about a subject matter which you have demonstrated a blatant lack of understanding and real knowledge about.

    • Replies: @Simpleguest
    @TheTotallyAnonymous

    Oh, the TotallyIdiot.
    I don't recall asking you.
    Anyway, you did not address my questions.

    PS: for clarity I was referring to post WW2 Yugoslavia.

    Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous

    , @AnonFromTN
    @TheTotallyAnonymous


    you should tell the Russians that the USSR was wonderful for them
     
    You’d be dead wrong. Russia shook off a lot of parasites (“brotherly” republics and “brotherly” socialist countries) that the USSR stupidly fed. Now Russia looks and functions a hell of a lot better than in Soviet times. Moscow is magnificent, but most provincial cities also improved, as well as the roads between them (that’s tens of thousands of kilometers; some fields in rural Russia are bigger than many European countries). Apparently, new parasites, the mega-thieves (“oligarchs” is a relatively polite term) suck less lifeblood out of Russia than the old parasites did.

    Sure, the breakup of the USSR created some problems. The real one is that a lot of Russians happened to be outside of Russia. Russian government should have addressed this, but didn’t. The other – prevailing Russophobia in many former “brotherly” republics – is actually a sign of their deep inferiority complexes, mixed with bitter envy in more than half of the cases. I say, serves them right, let them stew in their primeval tribal stupidity.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  594. @reiner Tor
    @anonymous coward

    Look up the number of Swiss Nobel laureates. Swiss farmers who are still working in farming (as opposed to Swiss farmers 200 years ago) are, however, not incredibly smart, that much is true.

    Replies: @Beckow, @RadicalCenter

    Yeah, but the confluence of the languages, cuisines, and styles of the German, French, and Italian peoples goes a long way — as does a plethora of German/French, German/Italian, French/Italian etc. women 🙂 🙂

  595. @TheTotallyAnonymous
    @Simpleguest


    Out of curiosity, why was Yugoslavia a disastrous project?
    In all honesty, it seemed like it solved all, be it past or future, problems of every Yugoslav ethnic group.

     

    Yes, Yugoslavia was absolutely not a disastrous project at all and it solved all past and future problems of every ethnic group in the region. This was wonderfully demonstrated during certain events from 1941-1945 and 1991-2001, plus, of course, the situation of the present Balkans and former Yugoslavia ever since 2001 also confirms this ...

    What are Serbs, going to do now, that Yugoslavia is no more?
    Recreate the Serbian medieval state, perhaps?
    Well get in line, with the Bulgars, Illirians, Byzantians, Ottomans, Croats etc.

    Apologies for being a bit harsh, but that’s the reality of folks living over there.

     

    First, you should tell the Russians that the USSR was wonderful for them and all their neighbors as it solved all past and future problems that they ever had or ever will have with each other. Then, you should tell the Russians that their nationalism or future aims and hopes are no different than those of their Svidomy or Muslim/Asian neighbors ambitions.

    Can you begin to understand just how blatantly ignorant, and absolutely uninformed your statements are now?

    Apologies for being a bit harsh, but that’s the reality of folks living over there.

     

    You should not make arrogant and bold statements about a subject matter which you have demonstrated a blatant lack of understanding and real knowledge about.

    Replies: @Simpleguest, @AnonFromTN

    Oh, the TotallyIdiot.
    I don’t recall asking you.
    Anyway, you did not address my questions.

    PS: for clarity I was referring to post WW2 Yugoslavia.

    • Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous
    @Simpleguest


    Oh, the TotallyIdiot.
    I don’t recall asking you.

     

    Cool, who cares Simplecuck?

    Anyway, you did not address my questions.

    PS: for clarity I was referring to post WW2 Yugoslavia.

     

    Doesn't matter, both Yugoslavia's were fundamentally artificial and faulty to the very core from their very inceptions. If you can't understand it for one, you won't be able to understand it for the other either.

    Replies: @Simpleguest

  596. @Thulean Friend
    @Korenchkin

    I certainly appreciate contrarian opinions. I personally think it looks ugly and deformed. However, if the architect was going for a "modern" design, he should have gone balls to the walls. No compromises or half-assed attempts. He tried to mash together a vertical ship together with a normal non-descript brick building which made the whole attempt menaingless. As if he had a change of heart or a moment of hesitation.

    For example, compare this:

    https://i.imgur.com/sHEgW86.jpg

    to this:

    https://i.imgur.com/8ZxjAX7.jpg

    Even if you're lukewarm/skeptical on modern architecture, if you're going to do it, then at least do it thoroughly. Go all in or go home.


    I’d argue it looks better then the glass dildos

     

    https://i.imgur.com/fitdliK.jpg

    Even glass dildos can be done better or worse.

    Replies: @AP, @AP

    The first one is really disturbing, like some alien predator snacking on the poor old building.

    The pedestrians in the photo fleeing in terror would be appropriate.

    • Replies: @AP
    @AP

    Delete this one please (I decided I might as well include the picture in my post, and erased this one with 10 seconds left; apparently it didn't get done)

  597. @Thulean Friend
    @Korenchkin

    I certainly appreciate contrarian opinions. I personally think it looks ugly and deformed. However, if the architect was going for a "modern" design, he should have gone balls to the walls. No compromises or half-assed attempts. He tried to mash together a vertical ship together with a normal non-descript brick building which made the whole attempt menaingless. As if he had a change of heart or a moment of hesitation.

    For example, compare this:

    https://i.imgur.com/sHEgW86.jpg

    to this:

    https://i.imgur.com/8ZxjAX7.jpg

    Even if you're lukewarm/skeptical on modern architecture, if you're going to do it, then at least do it thoroughly. Go all in or go home.


    I’d argue it looks better then the glass dildos

     

    https://i.imgur.com/fitdliK.jpg

    Even glass dildos can be done better or worse.

    Replies: @AP, @AP

    The first one is really disturbing, like some alien predator snacking on the poor old building.

    The pedestrians in the photo fleeing in terror would be appropriate.

  598. @AP
    @Thulean Friend

    The first one is really disturbing, like some alien predator snacking on the poor old building.

    The pedestrians in the photo fleeing in terror would be appropriate.

    Replies: @AP

    Delete this one please (I decided I might as well include the picture in my post, and erased this one with 10 seconds left; apparently it didn’t get done)

  599. @Korenchkin
    @AP


    25% Slav
     
    25% R1a you mean (and that % might be distorted due to a lack of proper studies), are Lithuanians, Latvians, Tajiks and Pashtuns Slavs then?
    We don't even know if the Proto-Slavs were a pure R1a group
    And this mixing of Slavs and Dinarics happened over 1200 years ago and was a natural process, not a state sponsored action (there was no Slavia funding an East Balkan Company to set up colonies)
    South Slavs were speaking a Slavic language since Slavs began being recorded in history, the oldest South Slavic documments are also over 1000 years old and are some of the oldest recorded examples of Slavic language
    Slavophilia originating from South Slavs did not come from some larp to imitate Russia or Poland, it was a movement originating from efforts to preserve Slavic language, religion and culture in face of assimilation by the Ottomans, Italians, Germans and Hungarians (similar movements appeared in Bohemia aswell, which resulted in the Prague Slavic Congress), so the preservation of some old Slavic custom or way of speaking came out of a conscious effort, not by being cut off from some home colonial state

    And you are still dodging the best point, Germanics are split into different but closely related genetic groups just like Slavs, yet they don't engage into this sort of "not real Germanic" talk

    Replies: @AP, @TheTotallyAnonymous

    Did you seriously write a wall of text to that shitty bait?
    Hohol hatred of Russia always proxies into hatred of Serbia, hell you can find Ukranians who defend the Ottoman Empire (on Reddit ofcourse) and claim that the Russian Tsarist Tyranny destroyed a tolerant and multi-ethnic Muslim Empire

    Point is, this stuff doesn’t come from some logical conclusion, you’re wasting your time “debunking it”
    Just LOL it and move on

    You should take your own advice that you gave me earlier in this thread, especially considering AP has shown his truly malicious provocateur and troll nature in this thread, if not beforehand.

    Still, Mr. Hack is an exception as he does appear to be a genuine and sincere commentator despite his views on some matters.

    • Replies: @AP
    @TheTotallyAnonymous


    AP has shown his truly malicious provocateur and troll nature in this thread, if not beforehand.
     
    Nothng whatsoever malicious or provocatory about what I wrote.
    , @Korenchkin
    @TheTotallyAnonymous

    What he wrote is not a popular but also not an uncommon opinion
    I write my responses for whatever third party might read it, I know I won't change his mind
    The comparisons to Africans are obvious baits, not that different from "Russia is Nigeria with nukes" or "Poland is Mexico with snow" but his arguments based on genetics and language deserve to be adressed
    I think I've made my point well enough, and I won't be continuing the conversation

    Replies: @Simpleguest

  600. @reiner Tor
    @AnonFromTN

    It's been a long time since I used those ticket machines, but there are four languages on offer (you forgot Italian), and I randomly chose German or English, and never had a problem with either. I've also haven't heard from anyone this particular complaint (I knew a number of English speakers not speaking any other language who visited Switzerland, usually for work related reasons). But I know of a case when it didn't work (at all), and the ticket controller showed very little flexibility, which is in general a problem with the Swiss.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

    I speak several languages, but German is not among them (beyond what you need in a restaurant). Yes, I was there for work-related reason, visiting collaborators at Paul Scherrer Institute in Villigen. The ticket machine was at the Brugg train station. The first time I struggled with it, and I guess it won, although I got a ticket that ticket controller on the train accepted. The second time a collaborator at PSI helped me get a bus+train ticket all the way to Zurich airport when I boarded the bus from Villigen to Brugg. Centralization has its virtues.

  601. @Simpleguest
    @TheTotallyAnonymous

    Oh, the TotallyIdiot.
    I don't recall asking you.
    Anyway, you did not address my questions.

    PS: for clarity I was referring to post WW2 Yugoslavia.

    Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous

    Oh, the TotallyIdiot.
    I don’t recall asking you.

    Cool, who cares Simplecuck?

    Anyway, you did not address my questions.

    PS: for clarity I was referring to post WW2 Yugoslavia.

    Doesn’t matter, both Yugoslavia’s were fundamentally artificial and faulty to the very core from their very inceptions. If you can’t understand it for one, you won’t be able to understand it for the other either.

    • Replies: @Simpleguest
    @TheTotallyAnonymous

    "Cool, who cares Simplecuck?"

    Beware, "TotalIdiot" kind of sticks, Simplecuck, not so much.

    For the rest, please see AnonfromTN response.
    Russians were much wiser then you. And they should be.

    Now the question is, what's next for Serbs?
    From what I can observe, it feels that Serbian society/nation is in disarray, and most importantly, in steep moral decline (not that I say this with any joy).
    Can you see that from your "vantage point" in Australia?

    Replies: @peterAUS

  602. @TheTotallyAnonymous
    @Simpleguest


    Out of curiosity, why was Yugoslavia a disastrous project?
    In all honesty, it seemed like it solved all, be it past or future, problems of every Yugoslav ethnic group.

     

    Yes, Yugoslavia was absolutely not a disastrous project at all and it solved all past and future problems of every ethnic group in the region. This was wonderfully demonstrated during certain events from 1941-1945 and 1991-2001, plus, of course, the situation of the present Balkans and former Yugoslavia ever since 2001 also confirms this ...

    What are Serbs, going to do now, that Yugoslavia is no more?
    Recreate the Serbian medieval state, perhaps?
    Well get in line, with the Bulgars, Illirians, Byzantians, Ottomans, Croats etc.

    Apologies for being a bit harsh, but that’s the reality of folks living over there.

     

    First, you should tell the Russians that the USSR was wonderful for them and all their neighbors as it solved all past and future problems that they ever had or ever will have with each other. Then, you should tell the Russians that their nationalism or future aims and hopes are no different than those of their Svidomy or Muslim/Asian neighbors ambitions.

    Can you begin to understand just how blatantly ignorant, and absolutely uninformed your statements are now?

    Apologies for being a bit harsh, but that’s the reality of folks living over there.

     

    You should not make arrogant and bold statements about a subject matter which you have demonstrated a blatant lack of understanding and real knowledge about.

    Replies: @Simpleguest, @AnonFromTN

    you should tell the Russians that the USSR was wonderful for them

    You’d be dead wrong. Russia shook off a lot of parasites (“brotherly” republics and “brotherly” socialist countries) that the USSR stupidly fed. Now Russia looks and functions a hell of a lot better than in Soviet times. Moscow is magnificent, but most provincial cities also improved, as well as the roads between them (that’s tens of thousands of kilometers; some fields in rural Russia are bigger than many European countries). Apparently, new parasites, the mega-thieves (“oligarchs” is a relatively polite term) suck less lifeblood out of Russia than the old parasites did.

    Sure, the breakup of the USSR created some problems. The real one is that a lot of Russians happened to be outside of Russia. Russian government should have addressed this, but didn’t. The other – prevailing Russophobia in many former “brotherly” republics – is actually a sign of their deep inferiority complexes, mixed with bitter envy in more than half of the cases. I say, serves them right, let them stew in their primeval tribal stupidity.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @AnonFromTN


    prevailing Russophobia in many former “brotherly” republics – is actually a sign of their deep inferiority complexes, mixed with bitter envy in more than half of the cases. I say, serves them right, let them stew in their primeval tribal stupidity.
     
    Not really. It's just a manifestation of those who've finaly been able to shed the unwanted intrusions of an imperial master, one that meddled its way unwantingly into affairs of its smaller neighborly peoples. It's telling that of all of the former republics, all have defected to the West and not a one has indicated any desire to reattach itself to Mother Russia. Of those that were once a core consituent republic, only Byelorus shows any signs at all of backstepping to its former colonial past. But then again, Byelorus was absolutely the most Russified of all of the Republics, filled with denationalized citizens. A great place for janissar 5th column renegades from all parts of the former Soviet Union?

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

  603. Chinese demographics look bleaker and bleaker…

    Chongqing reported about 68,400 births among a total population of about 31 million from January to May, a decrease of nearly 30 percent compared with the same period last year.

    In Weifang, Shandong province, health authorities said 55,800 babies were born in the first half of the year, down 13.4 percent year-on-year, Dazhong Daily reported.

    Also in Shandong, about 5,000 births were recorded in Shenxian county, in the city of Liaocheng, from January to June, down by about 15 percent from the same period last year.

    Surveys in hospitals and communities in other areas, including Shaanxi, Anhui, Sichuan and Hebei provinces, also found a shrinking newborn population in the first half, with the rate of decrease ranging from 3 percent to 10 percent.

    The statistics bureaus in Yan’an, Shaanxi province, and Pingquan, Henan province, both said a major factor in declining birthrates was a lack of willingness to have children among couples of childbearing age due to the mounting costs of raising a child.

    “The generation born in the 1980s and 1990s no longer perceives having children as an essential part of their marriage, thus driving down the fertility rate,” the bureau in Yan’an said. “And those in their 30s and 40s find it difficult to balance work and their personal life, and tend to discard the idea of having a second child.”

    http://www.china.org.cn/china/2019-09/19/content_75221765.htm

  604. YANG RISING

    Also this was the coomer who responded to him

    Coomers being coomers.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Thulean Friend

    I had to look up the word "coomer." LOL.

    , @Kent Nationalist
    @Thulean Friend

    He looks like he uses reddit.

    Are there any countries which have succeeded in limiting access to pornography?

    An automatic block unless you applied for an exemption was supposed to have been implemented here, but is being perpetually delayed.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Thulean Friend

  605. @AnonFromTN
    @TheTotallyAnonymous


    you should tell the Russians that the USSR was wonderful for them
     
    You’d be dead wrong. Russia shook off a lot of parasites (“brotherly” republics and “brotherly” socialist countries) that the USSR stupidly fed. Now Russia looks and functions a hell of a lot better than in Soviet times. Moscow is magnificent, but most provincial cities also improved, as well as the roads between them (that’s tens of thousands of kilometers; some fields in rural Russia are bigger than many European countries). Apparently, new parasites, the mega-thieves (“oligarchs” is a relatively polite term) suck less lifeblood out of Russia than the old parasites did.

    Sure, the breakup of the USSR created some problems. The real one is that a lot of Russians happened to be outside of Russia. Russian government should have addressed this, but didn’t. The other – prevailing Russophobia in many former “brotherly” republics – is actually a sign of their deep inferiority complexes, mixed with bitter envy in more than half of the cases. I say, serves them right, let them stew in their primeval tribal stupidity.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    prevailing Russophobia in many former “brotherly” republics – is actually a sign of their deep inferiority complexes, mixed with bitter envy in more than half of the cases. I say, serves them right, let them stew in their primeval tribal stupidity.

    Not really. It’s just a manifestation of those who’ve finaly been able to shed the unwanted intrusions of an imperial master, one that meddled its way unwantingly into affairs of its smaller neighborly peoples. It’s telling that of all of the former republics, all have defected to the West and not a one has indicated any desire to reattach itself to Mother Russia. Of those that were once a core consituent republic, only Byelorus shows any signs at all of backstepping to its former colonial past. But then again, Byelorus was absolutely the most Russified of all of the Republics, filled with denationalized citizens. A great place for janissar 5th column renegades from all parts of the former Soviet Union?

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    @Mr. Hack


    It’s telling that of all of the former republics, all have defected to the West and not a one has indicated any desire to reattach itself to Mother Russia.
     
    A lie, as usual, or a “svidomy” dream, which is the same thing. Belarus, Kazakhstan, Kirgizstan, and Armenia are in a permanent customs union with Russia.

    “Svidomy” butt-hurt about military exercises Center-2019 is even funnier. 128 thousand personnel from eight countries participated: Russia, China, India, Pakistan, Kazakhstan, Kirgizstan, Uzbekistan, and Tajikistan. Collectively they provided 20 thousand military vehicles, 600 aircraft, and 15 ships. The drills involved the territory of four countries: Russia, Kazakhstan, Kirgizstan, and Tajikistan. So, five former Soviet republics participated and the territory of four of them was involved. Considering that before that there were drills of combined military of Russia and Belarus, five out of 14 former Soviet republics participated in military drills with Russia just in the last few months.

    These drills dwarf the drills Ukraine recently conducted with its sahibs, the US (Rapid Trident-2019). If I were “svidomy”, I’d promptly hang myself. Thank goodness, I am normal.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  606. @TheTotallyAnonymous
    @Simpleguest


    Oh, the TotallyIdiot.
    I don’t recall asking you.

     

    Cool, who cares Simplecuck?

    Anyway, you did not address my questions.

    PS: for clarity I was referring to post WW2 Yugoslavia.

     

    Doesn't matter, both Yugoslavia's were fundamentally artificial and faulty to the very core from their very inceptions. If you can't understand it for one, you won't be able to understand it for the other either.

    Replies: @Simpleguest

    “Cool, who cares Simplecuck?”

    Beware, “TotalIdiot” kind of sticks, Simplecuck, not so much.

    For the rest, please see AnonfromTN response.
    Russians were much wiser then you. And they should be.

    Now the question is, what’s next for Serbs?
    From what I can observe, it feels that Serbian society/nation is in disarray, and most importantly, in steep moral decline (not that I say this with any joy).
    Can you see that from your “vantage point” in Australia?

    • Replies: @peterAUS
    @Simpleguest


    ....t feels that Serbian society/nation is in disarray, and most importantly, in steep moral decline (not that I say this with any joy)....
     
    Pretty much.

    Croats, apart from definitely on the same page re having an independent state, aren't in much better shape.

    The third entity there, though, isn't in disarray, apparently, and has a rather good idea what and how to do. They also have huge support from outside, including the major players, and are, by the very nature, patient, with long term goals.
  607. @Thulean Friend
    YANG RISING

    https://i.imgur.com/FMS41IW.jpg

    Also this was the coomer who responded to him

    https://i.imgur.com/Ib6TTM7.jpg

    Coomers being coomers.

    Replies: @AP, @Kent Nationalist

    I had to look up the word “coomer.” LOL.

  608. @TheTotallyAnonymous
    @Korenchkin


    Did you seriously write a wall of text to that shitty bait?
    Hohol hatred of Russia always proxies into hatred of Serbia, hell you can find Ukranians who defend the Ottoman Empire (on Reddit ofcourse) and claim that the Russian Tsarist Tyranny destroyed a tolerant and multi-ethnic Muslim Empire

    Point is, this stuff doesn’t come from some logical conclusion, you’re wasting your time “debunking it”
    Just LOL it and move on

     

    You should take your own advice that you gave me earlier in this thread, especially considering AP has shown his truly malicious provocateur and troll nature in this thread, if not beforehand.

    Still, Mr. Hack is an exception as he does appear to be a genuine and sincere commentator despite his views on some matters.

    Replies: @AP, @Korenchkin

    AP has shown his truly malicious provocateur and troll nature in this thread, if not beforehand.

    Nothng whatsoever malicious or provocatory about what I wrote.

  609. @Dmitry
    @Gerard1234

    Cultural diversity in America, was also coming a lot from the political system, that created a federal system of different states, and the separation of religion from state which allows people like the Mormons to develop freely.

    Mormons in Utah have classical choirs which are singing hymns about Planet Kolob (the planet where they believe Mormons will settle after they die).

    I'm not sure any other country in the world would allow such a nationality to develop. (And yet Mormons today are very successful people despite their bizarre ideology).

    Here is planet Kolob.

    https://mythology.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Where-is-Kolob.jpg

    And here video of Mormon classical choirs can sing about Planet Kolob.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_h_1WRcMQg

    Replies: @Gerad. 1

    Cmon Dmitry, you’re a very smart guy. It is in my opinion,total BS about the separation of church and state. In say ,1915 or 1855, there was less chance of a Roman Catholic being allowed to be US President, than there is now for the King of Saudi Arabia to be Orthodox jewish.
    Prohibition of Alcohol in the 1920s had a large Wasp vs Catholic political side to it.

    As for the eccentricities of the Mormon religion …..that is nothing more than a manifestation of Amercan insecurity and maybe even inferiority complex towards the great “old world” in Europe with all this great big history, institutions, science, architecture and so on behind it. At it’s most harmless it manifests itself in americans changing English pronunciations of words like anti (pronounced antee) into anTIE……and in other ways manifests itself in these weird methamophising of Christianity which is not just the Mormons but the 7th day Adventists and others. It is more a way of showing a middle finger to the old world, coupled with strange personalities that can develop in a frontier town in a harsh environment ( not much surprise that Conan-Doyle set the very first Sherlock Holmes story on Mormons, he had travelled to Utah)

    I felt a bit of this complexe on my family holiday to Majorca couple of months ago ( and actually on several non Amercan holidays before ) where I hardly came across any americans at the packed out beaches, or the nightclubs or the bars…..but I did come across a huge load of them in the old city and at Palma Cathedral in particular.

    Another side to all this is that in the majority of the west, attitudes to bankruptcy, until relatively recently ,were extremely negative……almost as much as to out of marriage children and faggots. In US there was the same attitude to fag and out of marriage kids……but nowhere near as much social stigma to bankruptcy, where there seems to be no conservatism. That is a big safety net for so-called innovation. Most other western countries would never even think of electing a guy with as many bankruptcies as Trump……and I once recall reading about Romney calling the Detroit car manufacturing industries as filing for bankruptcy as great for them. In the rest of the west they were always more conservative on this issue.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Gerad. 1

    I think Mormons' divergence is more extreme, than just " inferiority complex towards the great “old world”".

    They created a new religion, where they wear "holy underwear" and yet they could have a large scale of independence and control in Utah.

    I don't know how accurate this description of Mormon theology?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VKT4hrBTuk

    But they allegedly had in the past, a claim of vengeance against USA for killing Joseph Smith.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6udew9axmdM

  610. @Simpleguest
    @TheTotallyAnonymous

    "Cool, who cares Simplecuck?"

    Beware, "TotalIdiot" kind of sticks, Simplecuck, not so much.

    For the rest, please see AnonfromTN response.
    Russians were much wiser then you. And they should be.

    Now the question is, what's next for Serbs?
    From what I can observe, it feels that Serbian society/nation is in disarray, and most importantly, in steep moral decline (not that I say this with any joy).
    Can you see that from your "vantage point" in Australia?

    Replies: @peterAUS

    ….t feels that Serbian society/nation is in disarray, and most importantly, in steep moral decline (not that I say this with any joy)….

    Pretty much.

    Croats, apart from definitely on the same page re having an independent state, aren’t in much better shape.

    The third entity there, though, isn’t in disarray, apparently, and has a rather good idea what and how to do. They also have huge support from outside, including the major players, and are, by the very nature, patient, with long term goals.

  611. @Thulean Friend
    YANG RISING

    https://i.imgur.com/FMS41IW.jpg

    Also this was the coomer who responded to him

    https://i.imgur.com/Ib6TTM7.jpg

    Coomers being coomers.

    Replies: @AP, @Kent Nationalist

    He looks like he uses reddit.

    Are there any countries which have succeeded in limiting access to pornography?

    An automatic block unless you applied for an exemption was supposed to have been implemented here, but is being perpetually delayed.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Kent Nationalist

    Well, most Middle Eastern countries will formally have it illegal watching pornography - however they will probably lack state capacity to block it on the internet.

    As Israel becomes more culturally Middle Eastern every year, they are now wanting to demotivate people to access it in their ISP (and they criminalized prostitution as well this year).

    Perhaps if a new centre-left government is elected, they will be undo this.

    The Knesset approved the first reading of a bill limiting the Israeli access to porn-sites and sites presenting adult-related materials on Tuesday.

    Designed to protect minors from exposure and consumption of pornographic content, the bill demands web-service providers to send a message to house-holds with internet access asking if they wish to have such sites blocked or not.

    Should they decline the offer they will be asked to provide personal information proving that they are adults and are the ones paying for the service.

    Israelis who do not respond to these messages will still be able to access the internet, but will be sent this message every three months.

    For each Israeli who wishes the web provider to block adult content on his or her service, the web provider will get NIS 2 from the State of Israel, which allocated NIS 5 million annually for a decade.

    The Knesset also approved adopting the Nordic Model in relation to sex workers this week.

    The new law, which will go into effect in 18 months, will criminalize the hiring of sex workers and is a part of a fuller effort to establish social and mental support to help people in the sex work industry to exit the field before the law comes into effect.

    The Nordic Model, which criminalizes people who hire sex workers, is the toughest legal framework designed to end sex work in the West. Seen by some as a needed legal step to prevent the abuse of women, men, and minors who are doing sex work - the law is seen by others as a state intervention on people's right's and bodies as well as a criminalizing human activity that will be very hard to prevent.

     

    https://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Ahead-of-elections-Knesset-pushes-porn-sex-workers-laws-576038
    , @Thulean Friend
    @Kent Nationalist

    Completely blocking access to porn is unlikely to work. And even if it was possible, I would still be against it on grounds of freedom of choice.

    Yang wasn't hinting at blocking it. He wanted to introduce greater ease for parents to limit access for kids, rather than a blanket ban. We can't pretend that the creeping sexualisation of our culture is happening organically or by coincidence. It has been very deliberate. Yang's a technocrat, so he likely has technological solutions in mind here, rather than a fuller Weltanschauung but his conservative instinct, no matter how embryonic, is undeniable here.

    And no wonder. When this is one of the most popular artists in America and has over 50 million followers on instagram, many of them younger women.

    https://www.instagram.com/p/B1WlObiA4bp/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

    Anyone who tells you popstars aren't rolemodels for young kids either doens't have teenagers and kids, is either stupid or silently approves of the decay.
    Once again we face the biggest obstacle: defeatism and fatalism. The notion that just because things have deterioated, they can't possibly ever improve. Nothing is further from the truth.

    Replies: @Dmitry

  612. @AP
    @Korenchkin


    And you are still dodging the best point, Germanics are split into different but closely related genetic groups just like Slavs
     
    Because there is no such thing as a real "pan-Germanic" movement and no ridiculous spectacle of, say, African-Americans (who speak a Germanic language) bragging about being "Germanics" and the same people as other Germanics.

    Replies: @Korenchkin

    Because there is no such thing as a real “pan-Germanic” movement

    There isn’t a real pan-Slavic movement either, though both existed in the past
    But that it entirely beside the point

    African-Americans (who speak a Germanic language) bragging about being “Germanics” and the same people as other Germanics.

    Again, another false equivalence
    Southern Slavs have been Slavs since Slavs were recorded in history, them not having the same genetics as Northern groups does not disqualify them just as Germans and Swedes do not try to qualify eachother as “real Germanics”
    Neither do Southern Slavs claim to be the same people, I repeat, Serbs do not claim to be Russians nor do Croats claim to be Poles but they can easily assimilate in eachothers societies because they are very similar but still distinct
    Try seeing an African or Native American fully assimilate in a European country

    In fact, the reasons the New Serbia region vanished was because the Serbs there assimilated so completely that there was no distinction between them and the local Russians/Ukranians/Poles anymore
    African-Americans had an entirely alien culture from another continent imposed onto them, South Slavs were created out of a mingling of two European groups who were familiar to eachother, South Slavic culture and language was created, modified and preserved by the South Slavs themselves, it wasn’t created in the Dnieper region and then exported by some organised colonization in the 15th Century

    The comparison to Negros would make sense if you were talking about the Russian speaking Central Asians or the Russified Yakuts, but it doesn’t work in the context of the South Slavs

    • Agree: Mitleser, melanf
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Korenchkin

    I think that you've made some pretty decent comments here (especially #385) pointing out some questionable points within AP's arguments. Actually, I think AP (as ususal) is right on with the facts he presents, but I don't quite know where he's going with all of this? He even admits, that an important sub-component of the Ukrainian ethnos is "Balkanoid", so perhaps he should be a little more judicious to these folks. :-) He's even conceded that it's rather likely that the Croats, another "Balkanoid" people probably got there first strong impetus from the White Croat tribe centered in Western Ukraine.

    Nobody here has contradiced his claim that perhaps no more than 25% of the modern day Serbian ethnos has real "superace" slavic genetic structure. My question is where is AP going with all of this? Does this mean that the Serbian nation today is somehow inferior to Poland, Ukraine, Byelorus or even Russia? Is the civilization that they've created for themselves somehow suffered due to a loss of "superace" genes? I think he has a long way to go to subtantiate anything like this.

    On a lighter note, it's reassuring to see that AK has upped his claim to superace genes from 50% to 65%. (I always suspected that this was the cae, even though I showed in an earlier thread that his clan probably originated in Ireland). :-)

    Replies: @AP, @Korenchkin, @Denis

    , @AP
    @Korenchkin


    Southern Slavs have been Slavs since Slavs were recorded in history,
     
    Epigon seemed to show that there were a Slavic people called Serbs who kept their distance from Balkanoids until the Ottoman occupation, when they were swamped by and absorbed by the Balkanoids. Now those mixed, Slavic-langage speaking people are still called Serbs. Modern Serbs are only about 25% Slavic.*

    It would be like if a population of 25% English and 75% African slaves got mixed together but still referred to themselves as "Englishmen." And celebrated English heroes as "their" heroes. Okay, fine, they can call themselves what they want. But that wouldn't make them a "Germanic" people. And they would be utterly ridiculous if they followed some kind of pan-Germanic cause. Even more so if this pan-Germanism brought them into confict with actual Germanics like Swedes or Germans.
    Croats are more Slavic than Serbs, and Ukrainians unlike Serbs are actual Slavs. Yet out of some pan-Slavism these Balkanoids have gotten into conflicts with them.

    Try seeing an African or Native American fully assimilate in a European country
    In fact, the reasons the New Serbia region vanished was because the Serbs there assimilated so completely that there was no distinction between them and the local Russians/Ukranians/Poles anymore
     
    There were also very few of them. Mexico and Argentina totally absorbed their small colonial-era African populatons. But sure, Balkanoids, like Arabs, Greeks or Caucasians, are Caucasian people. Though they aren't Slavs.

    *I guess if in the future England gets totally swamped by Jamaicans, Nigerians, Pakistanis etc. so that eventually the people in England will be only of 25% English origin, largely mixed but still English-speaking, we will have a rough analogue to modern Serbs vs. medieval Serbs.

    Replies: @Korenchkin

  613. @TheTotallyAnonymous
    @Korenchkin


    Did you seriously write a wall of text to that shitty bait?
    Hohol hatred of Russia always proxies into hatred of Serbia, hell you can find Ukranians who defend the Ottoman Empire (on Reddit ofcourse) and claim that the Russian Tsarist Tyranny destroyed a tolerant and multi-ethnic Muslim Empire

    Point is, this stuff doesn’t come from some logical conclusion, you’re wasting your time “debunking it”
    Just LOL it and move on

     

    You should take your own advice that you gave me earlier in this thread, especially considering AP has shown his truly malicious provocateur and troll nature in this thread, if not beforehand.

    Still, Mr. Hack is an exception as he does appear to be a genuine and sincere commentator despite his views on some matters.

    Replies: @AP, @Korenchkin

    What he wrote is not a popular but also not an uncommon opinion
    I write my responses for whatever third party might read it, I know I won’t change his mind
    The comparisons to Africans are obvious baits, not that different from “Russia is Nigeria with nukes” or “Poland is Mexico with snow” but his arguments based on genetics and language deserve to be adressed
    I think I’ve made my point well enough, and I won’t be continuing the conversation

    • Agree: TheTotallyAnonymous
    • Replies: @Simpleguest
    @Korenchkin

    "I think I’ve made my point well enough, ..."

    Agree and commend.

  614. @AP
    @anonymous coward


    No, because the so-called “Ukrainian language” was invented by Soviet authorities and refined by Galician emigrants from Canada after 1991.
     
    Just because you, who are wrong basically 100% of the time, claim something doesn't make it so.

    So the first significant example of Ukrainian literature, Aneida by Kotlyarevski, was called Little Russian

    No. “Aneida” has to be translated into the modern so-called “Ukrainian language”, whereas it is very readable to a modern Russian speaker, even if obviously in a colloquial dialect.
     
    I posted an early 19th century edition; the orthography is in the Russian of that time, but the language is obviously about the same as modern Ukrainian. As close as early 19th century English is to modern English (and much closer than Shakespeare to modern English).

    Furthermore, “Aneida” was a joke, an attempt to juxtapose classical Greece with a rustic colloquial Russian dialect. It’s a Russian work written in Russian.

     

    I posted it, there was a Russian and Little Russian version. Obviously the latter was not "written in Russian."

    Replies: @anonymous coward

    Kotlyarevski published in St. Petersburg, not in Kiev. His target audience was educated Russian speakers, not “Little Russian” swineherders.

    His “Aeneid” was a joke, meant for Russian ears and Russian speakers.

    What you call the “Ukrainian language” is a fake and gay invented language like Esperanto, created in the 20th century.

    That is fake and gay language is partly based on a dumb Russian joke only makes it faker and gayer, it doesn’t make it more legitimate.

    P.S. Kotlyarevsky’s “Aeneid” is incredibly crass, even by modern debased standards. Venus is a “slut”, Zeus is “swilling moonshine”, “sons of bitches” everywhere, etc.

    P.P.S. His “Aeneid” is full of tortured syntax and strange words that aren’t part of colloquial modern Russian or the fake and gay modern “Ukrainian”. He must have been inventing words to a certain extent.

    • Disagree: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @AP
    @anonymous coward

    Thanks for again demonstrating yourself being wrong as usual.


    Kotlyarevski published in St. Petersburg, not in Kiev. His target audience was educated Russian speakers, not “Little Russian” swineherders.
     
    While it was indeed published in St. Petersburg (this is perhaps the first correct thing you have written or thought in three months), Eneida was first published by another Ukrainian, who was living there, Maxym Parpura:

    https://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/Парпура_Максим_Йосипович

    His target audience was the many Ukrainains who were living in St. Petersburg and occupied a lot of administrative posts.

    The problem with your fake claim that it was written in the Russian language is that it is available online:

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/38/Eneida_Osipov_Kotlayrevsky.jpg

    Left page Russian, right page Little Russian/Ukrainian. It's as close to modern Ukrainian as late 18th century English is to modern English.


    What you call the “Ukrainian language” is a fake and gay invented language like Esperanto, created in the 20th century.
     
    As we can see above, there is an example from the 1790s. Earlier examples occur in the early 1600s.

    Russian, loaded up with Church Slavonic and French words, is far more artificial and invented than is Ukrainian. I already made this point before, you are not only wrong but unoriginal. From another anon poster:

    "...modern Russian, from the historic perspective, is a very young and largely artificially created language, a sort of Esperanto; and it hasn’t had enough time, unlike Ukrainian, to develop the variety of linguistic forms and shortcuts that emerge only when a language is used naturally and for a long period of time by common people communicating with one another daily , rather than via being concocted in an ivory tower. As a result, there’re thousands of Ukrainian shortcut adverbs (e.g.: торік, чимдуж, etc.) that can be expressed in Russian only by using a combination of three separate words. Likewise, Ukrainian has three single-word superlative degrees, while Russian has only one…Ukrainian has single-word forms of Future Imperfect (e.g. матиму, матимемо, матимеш, матиме, матимуть) completely absent from Russian. Ukrainian has the Plus Quam Perfectum tense (e.g. він почав був читати, та його зупинили); Russian doesn’t. And the list goes on and on.

    Another example: “the single-word Future Imperfect (майбутній час недоконаного виду) that is absent from Russian where it can be formed only with the Future form of the auxiliary verb “to be”. E.g. “We will live” in Russian can be formed only as “Мы будем жить”, whereas in Ukrainian, both as “Ми житимемо” (one word for “will live”) and “Ми будемо жити” (“to be” in the Future + Infinitive). Another tense Russian doesn’t have is Plus Quam Perfectum (Past Perfect in English) called in Ukrainian “давноминулий час” and indicating an action finished before some moment in the past, e.g. “Я був читав”.

    While in U, all of the above forms were present in common everyday speech in the 1700′s (that’s the speech and vocabulary Kotliarevsky used to write “The Aeneid” published in 1798), R at the time was a mere rudiment of what it has become after Pushkin and is today."


    P.S. Kotlyarevsky’s “Aeneid” is incredibly crass, even by modern debased standards.
     
    Mozart:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leck_mich_im_Arsch

    "Leck mich im Arsch" (literally "Lick me in the arse") is a canon in B-flat major composed by Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, K. 231 (K. 382c), with lyrics in German. It was one of a set of at least six canons probably written in Vienna in 1782

    And you must hate Chaucer then:

    The Miller's Tale, by Geoffrey Chaucer

    This Absolon gan wype his mouth ful drie.
    Derk was the nyght as pich, or as a cole
    An at the wyndow out she putte her hole,
    and Ansolon, hym fil no bet ne wers
    But with his mouth he kiste hir naked ers
    Ful savorly, er he were war of this.
    Aback he stirte and thoghte it was amys,
    For wel he wiste a womman hath no berd,
    He felte a thyng al rough and long yherd,
    And seyde, "Fy! Allas! what have I to do?"

    Translation into modern English:

    Absolon wiped his mouth dry.
    The night was as dark as pitch, or as coal,
    And out the window she stuck her hole,
    And Absolon it befell no better or worse,
    But with his mouth he kissed her naked arse,
    Savoring it before he knew what it was.
    Back he jumped and thought it was strange,
    For well he knew a woman has no beard.
    He felt a thing all rough and long haired
    And said, "Fie! Alas! what have I done?"

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Gerard1234

  615. @Korenchkin
    @TheTotallyAnonymous

    What he wrote is not a popular but also not an uncommon opinion
    I write my responses for whatever third party might read it, I know I won't change his mind
    The comparisons to Africans are obvious baits, not that different from "Russia is Nigeria with nukes" or "Poland is Mexico with snow" but his arguments based on genetics and language deserve to be adressed
    I think I've made my point well enough, and I won't be continuing the conversation

    Replies: @Simpleguest

    “I think I’ve made my point well enough, …”

    Agree and commend.

  616. @Simpleguest
    @Korenchkin

    "Serbia and other South Slavs were also part of the Slavophile circlejerk in the 19th Century which resulted in the disaterous Pan-Slavic project of Yugoslavia"

    Out of curiosity, why was Yugoslavia a disastrous project?
    In all honesty, it seemed like it solved all, be it past or future, problems of every Yugoslav ethnic group.

    For instance, since you are Serbian, all Serbs lived, for better or worse, in one country, didn't they?
    What are Serbs, going to do now, that Yugoslavia is no more?
    Recreate the Serbian medieval state, perhaps?
    Well get in line, with the Bulgars, Illirians, Byzantians, Ottomans, Croats etc.

    Apologies for being a bit harsh, but that's the reality of folks living over there.

    Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous, @Korenchkin

    why was Yugoslavia a disastrous project

    You said in the other post that you were talking about post WW2 Yugoslavia, so let’s go over some facts that Yugonostalgics like to ignore
    Firstly after WW2 there were massacres of WW1 Serb war veterans, successfull peasants (my family just barely dodged this fate, by having their farm wrecked by the war and no longer being successfull) and other useful individuals that Communists like to murder

    Then came the border redrawings, the biggest loser was Serbia, having millions of Serbs cut out and having things like Montenegrin identity enforced by the state
    Serbia was the only republic with 2 autonomous provinces within it, the millions of Serbs in Croatia, Bosnia, Macedonia and Montenegro got no such benefit

    Industry from the Serbian republic was moved to “punish Serbia for it’s imperialism” towards Western republics, this is what we get for covering Bosnia, Croatia and Slovenia during Versailles and ensuring they don’t suffer the penalties of being the loser state in the biggest war in history
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relocation_of_Serbian_industry_during_the_Informbiro_period

    Refugees from Enver Hoxha were allowed to settle in Kosovo and Macedonia (both were already flashpoints but this just put more dry wood on the pile for future fires), the Macedonian region where the Albanians settled was once a Serb majority region and Kosovo is one of the cradle provinces of Serbia (Alongside Rashka and Montenegro) now they’re overrun by those animals
    The plan was to annex Albania as another Yugo republic but Stalin cockblocked Tito

    Everyone was moved from the countryside into tiny bugman apartments in various cities and fertility collapsed (this was a problem for every republic tho)

    And above all it FAILED, nobody would be hating on Soviet Communists today if they created a successfull socialist paradise and nobody would be hating on Yugoslavists if they didn’t fuck it all up after dear leader died, leaving us with less land then in fucking 1914 and with North Korea tier indoctrinated boomers and totally blackpilled Zoomers

    Recreate the Serbian medieval state, perhaps?

    No, we had a Serbian state in the 19th and 20th Century, so we have a lot of work cut out for us on that front
    The legacy of things like Dušans code and the Serbian constitution from the 19th Century serve as proof that we were not total idiotic tribal savages and for good national myth making (something all nations need)

    What needs to be adressed is the massive blackpill of society and to end the cargo cults and degeneracy fests, we’ve seen a lot of positive development recently but there is a long path to go
    We were punched into the dirt several times during the 20th Century but we survived, we pick ourselves up and we carry on

    • Replies: @Simpleguest
    @Korenchkin

    OK. We'll leave it at that.
    I sincerely hope that you will eventually (and soon) recognize that own national myths are the biggest enemy of a nation (just look no further then the "exceptional" nation).
    I wish you well.

    Replies: @Korenchkin

  617. @Korenchkin
    @AP


    Because there is no such thing as a real “pan-Germanic” movement
     
    There isn't a real pan-Slavic movement either, though both existed in the past
    But that it entirely beside the point

    African-Americans (who speak a Germanic language) bragging about being “Germanics” and the same people as other Germanics.
     
    Again, another false equivalence
    Southern Slavs have been Slavs since Slavs were recorded in history, them not having the same genetics as Northern groups does not disqualify them just as Germans and Swedes do not try to qualify eachother as "real Germanics"
    Neither do Southern Slavs claim to be the same people, I repeat, Serbs do not claim to be Russians nor do Croats claim to be Poles but they can easily assimilate in eachothers societies because they are very similar but still distinct
    Try seeing an African or Native American fully assimilate in a European country

    In fact, the reasons the New Serbia region vanished was because the Serbs there assimilated so completely that there was no distinction between them and the local Russians/Ukranians/Poles anymore
    African-Americans had an entirely alien culture from another continent imposed onto them, South Slavs were created out of a mingling of two European groups who were familiar to eachother, South Slavic culture and language was created, modified and preserved by the South Slavs themselves, it wasn't created in the Dnieper region and then exported by some organised colonization in the 15th Century

    The comparison to Negros would make sense if you were talking about the Russian speaking Central Asians or the Russified Yakuts, but it doesn't work in the context of the South Slavs

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @AP

    I think that you’ve made some pretty decent comments here (especially #385) pointing out some questionable points within AP’s arguments. Actually, I think AP (as ususal) is right on with the facts he presents, but I don’t quite know where he’s going with all of this? He even admits, that an important sub-component of the Ukrainian ethnos is “Balkanoid”, so perhaps he should be a little more judicious to these folks. 🙂 He’s even conceded that it’s rather likely that the Croats, another “Balkanoid” people probably got there first strong impetus from the White Croat tribe centered in Western Ukraine.

    Nobody here has contradiced his claim that perhaps no more than 25% of the modern day Serbian ethnos has real “superace” slavic genetic structure. My question is where is AP going with all of this? Does this mean that the Serbian nation today is somehow inferior to Poland, Ukraine, Byelorus or even Russia? Is the civilization that they’ve created for themselves somehow suffered due to a loss of “superace” genes? I think he has a long way to go to subtantiate anything like this.

    On a lighter note, it’s reassuring to see that AK has upped his claim to superace genes from 50% to 65%. (I always suspected that this was the cae, even though I showed in an earlier thread that his clan probably originated in Ireland). 🙂

    • Replies: @AP
    @Mr. Hack


    Actually, I think AP (as ususal) is right on with the facts he presents, but I don’t quite know where he’s going with all of this?
     
    Just to point out the ridiculousness of Balkanoids being also some sort of pan-Slavists, when they are hardly Slavic by descent and are basically just Slavic by language. It would be like if some Guatemalan Mestizos proclaimed themselves to be uber-Spaniard patriots or African-Americans hardcore "Germanics."

    It was partly on the basis of this fake mythology that the tragedies of the early 20th century happened. I also think that this fake idea drives soem Serbs to volunteer to come to Donbas and shoot at Ukrainians.

    He even admits, that an important sub-compnent of the Ukrainian ethnmos is “Balkanoid”
     
    This may explain why Ukrainans, on average, are not quite as smart as their Polish and Russian neighbors. I suspect they are comparable to southern Russians (who are not quite as smart as the Russian average), or Slovaks. Ukrainians are probably around 10% Balkanoid. Maybe that is why.

    Does this mean that the Serbian nation today is somehow inferior to Poland, Ukraine, Byelorus or even Russia?
     
    Why "even" Russia? Russia is the most successful of the Slavic countries. If it weren't destroyed by Bolshevism it might very likely have become a global hyperpower.

    Balkan peoples, on average, are not as smart as Slavs. That's a fact.

    PISA scores again (Slavic nations and Balkan nations in bold):

    https://isteve.blogspot.com/2013/12/overall-pisa-rankings-include-america.html

    Finland 529
    Poland 521
    Switzerland 518
    White Americans 518
    Germany 515

    Czech Republic 500
    Slovenia 499
    Hungary 487
    Lithuania 484
    Croatia 482
    Russia 481*
    Slovakia 472

    Hispanic Americans 465

    Serbia 447
    Bulgaria 440
    Romania 440


    African Americans 434

    Montenegro 414
    Albania 395

    Is the civilization that they’ve created for themselves somehow suffered due to a loss of “superace” genes?
     
    Well, they aren't very Slavic by descent. But they are also in a tough neighborhood with a bad history.

    *Russia is 20% non-Slavic. The Tatars, Chechens, etc. bring the Russian average way down.

    Replies: @melanf

    , @Korenchkin
    @Mr. Hack


    superace
     
    One branch of this super race is launching men to the ISS from Baikonur, one is selling it's daughters to Kikes in Tel Aviv, one is fighting against another branch in Donetsk and one is fucking little boys in Kabul
    No one is safe from bad branches, and sometimes they need to broken or trimmed (sorry Weihan)

    South Slavs helped found the American space program (Pupin), charted the Earths movements over thousands of years (Milankovic) and defined the boundry of the Earths crust and mantle layer (Mohorovcic), there were even Serbs working on the Appolo program (Vucelic and at least 6 others)
    This isn't even to mention Tesla and the Cyrillic alphabet
    Under the right conditions a healthy tree could grow here, even if not as fruit bearing as other trees

    I do not want them compared to Africans and Mestizos

    Looking at Ukraine today it is easy to poke at it and make nasty comparisons but it would be unfair and posters here disrespect Ukranians sometimes too much (though you are asking for it sometimes), so I know you understand this feeling
    Everyone here wants Ukraine to prosper, we only disagree under which flag

    Since Western Europe and Anglosphere have decided to commit suicide by immigration it falls to Slavs and East Asians to carry the metaphorical torch, and the questions we discuss here will need to be answered if we are a to have a future together
    A united Slavic state is unlikely and foolish to expect, but something like a Slavic EU or the Intermarrium are not, should NATO and/or the EU collapse these will be the options on the table

    I don't want you or AP to stop posting, but I do want posts to be of a higher quality, though I also do want to own a unicorn too (heres hoping for crispr ponies)

    Replies: @AP, @Mr. Hack, @Denis

    , @Denis
    @Mr. Hack

    "Actually, I think AP (as ususal) is right on with the facts he presents, but I don’t quite know where he’s going with all of this?"

    He is still butthurt that Austro-Hungary collapsed and holds Serbs partially (totally?) responsible for this, so he aimlessly vents bitterness at us on occassion.

  618. @anonymous coward
    @AP

    Kotlyarevski published in St. Petersburg, not in Kiev. His target audience was educated Russian speakers, not "Little Russian" swineherders.

    His "Aeneid" was a joke, meant for Russian ears and Russian speakers.

    What you call the "Ukrainian language" is a fake and gay invented language like Esperanto, created in the 20th century.

    That is fake and gay language is partly based on a dumb Russian joke only makes it faker and gayer, it doesn't make it more legitimate.

    P.S. Kotlyarevsky's "Aeneid" is incredibly crass, even by modern debased standards. Venus is a "slut", Zeus is "swilling moonshine", "sons of bitches" everywhere, etc.

    P.P.S. His "Aeneid" is full of tortured syntax and strange words that aren't part of colloquial modern Russian or the fake and gay modern "Ukrainian". He must have been inventing words to a certain extent.

    Replies: @AP

    Thanks for again demonstrating yourself being wrong as usual.

    Kotlyarevski published in St. Petersburg, not in Kiev. His target audience was educated Russian speakers, not “Little Russian” swineherders.

    While it was indeed published in St. Petersburg (this is perhaps the first correct thing you have written or thought in three months), Eneida was first published by another Ukrainian, who was living there, Maxym Parpura:

    https://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/Парпура_Максим_Йосипович

    His target audience was the many Ukrainains who were living in St. Petersburg and occupied a lot of administrative posts.

    The problem with your fake claim that it was written in the Russian language is that it is available online:

    Left page Russian, right page Little Russian/Ukrainian. It’s as close to modern Ukrainian as late 18th century English is to modern English.

    What you call the “Ukrainian language” is a fake and gay invented language like Esperanto, created in the 20th century.

    As we can see above, there is an example from the 1790s. Earlier examples occur in the early 1600s.

    Russian, loaded up with Church Slavonic and French words, is far more artificial and invented than is Ukrainian. I already made this point before, you are not only wrong but unoriginal. From another anon poster:

    “…modern Russian, from the historic perspective, is a very young and largely artificially created language, a sort of Esperanto; and it hasn’t had enough time, unlike Ukrainian, to develop the variety of linguistic forms and shortcuts that emerge only when a language is used naturally and for a long period of time by common people communicating with one another daily , rather than via being concocted in an ivory tower. As a result, there’re thousands of Ukrainian shortcut adverbs (e.g.: торік, чимдуж, etc.) that can be expressed in Russian only by using a combination of three separate words. Likewise, Ukrainian has three single-word superlative degrees, while Russian has only one…Ukrainian has single-word forms of Future Imperfect (e.g. матиму, матимемо, матимеш, матиме, матимуть) completely absent from Russian. Ukrainian has the Plus Quam Perfectum tense (e.g. він почав був читати, та його зупинили); Russian doesn’t. And the list goes on and on.

    Another example: “the single-word Future Imperfect (майбутній час недоконаного виду) that is absent from Russian where it can be formed only with the Future form of the auxiliary verb “to be”. E.g. “We will live” in Russian can be formed only as “Мы будем жить”, whereas in Ukrainian, both as “Ми житимемо” (one word for “will live”) and “Ми будемо жити” (“to be” in the Future + Infinitive). Another tense Russian doesn’t have is Plus Quam Perfectum (Past Perfect in English) called in Ukrainian “давноминулий час” and indicating an action finished before some moment in the past, e.g. “Я був читав”.

    While in U, all of the above forms were present in common everyday speech in the 1700′s (that’s the speech and vocabulary Kotliarevsky used to write “The Aeneid” published in 1798), R at the time was a mere rudiment of what it has become after Pushkin and is today.”

    P.S. Kotlyarevsky’s “Aeneid” is incredibly crass, even by modern debased standards.

    Mozart:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leck_mich_im_Arsch

    “Leck mich im Arsch” (literally “Lick me in the arse”) is a canon in B-flat major composed by Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, K. 231 (K. 382c), with lyrics in German. It was one of a set of at least six canons probably written in Vienna in 1782

    And you must hate Chaucer then:

    The Miller’s Tale, by Geoffrey Chaucer

    This Absolon gan wype his mouth ful drie.
    Derk was the nyght as pich, or as a cole
    An at the wyndow out she putte her hole,
    and Ansolon, hym fil no bet ne wers
    But with his mouth he kiste hir naked ers
    Ful savorly, er he were war of this.
    Aback he stirte and thoghte it was amys,
    For wel he wiste a womman hath no berd,
    He felte a thyng al rough and long yherd,
    And seyde, “Fy! Allas! what have I to do?”

    Translation into modern English:

    Absolon wiped his mouth dry.
    The night was as dark as pitch, or as coal,
    And out the window she stuck her hole,
    And Absolon it befell no better or worse,
    But with his mouth he kissed her naked arse,
    Savoring it before he knew what it was.
    Back he jumped and thought it was strange,
    For well he knew a woman has no beard.
    He felt a thing all rough and long haired
    And said, “Fie! Alas! what have I done?”

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @AP

    Your command of the facts is on full display here again, and your conclusions are logical and true. How many times must you show this dilitente the back door?...

    Replies: @AP

    , @Gerard1234
    @AP


    Mozart:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leck_mich_im_Arsch

    “Leck mich im Arsch” (literally “Lick me in the arse”) is a canon in B-flat major composed by Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, K. 231 (K. 382c), with lyrics in German. It was one of a set of at least six canons probably written in Vienna in 1782

    And you must hate Chaucer then:

    The Miller’s Tale, by Geoffrey Chaucer
     

    LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL! So you are that thick you are literally comparing a TITLE from a piece of MUSIC by a young musical prodigy genius.....and EIGHT LINES from a great writer, Chaucer ,on an everyday topic ( village life), that would frequently for the time have erotika written into it........

    ..........with the FIRST CIRCULATED 'UKRAINIAN' LITERATURE in history that somehow was chosen to go down the lowest common denominator route of witless smut and toilet humour - and to make maatters worse has chosen as it's target probably the biggest topic in history that has been the subject of high culture - (classical greek gods/mythology) that has been used as the subject for high cultural paintings, poetry, statues, plays, music and so !!!!

    It is exactly what Anonymous Coward has been saying about the fakeness of the language ( and the fact that it was published in Russia, in Russian makes your idiocy even worse)

    You couldn't make this retarded sh*t up!In making up a lie you choose something from the lowest common denominator that could never be the "first example" of any culture in anything if the culture/language was in any way real!)

    Replies: @AP

  619. Since Albanians have come up in this thread they’ve been making a name for themselves in the UK.

    Albanians are now the most numerous non-Brits in jail

    Albanians make up 10% of all foreign nationals in British jails, knocking Poles from the top of the charts at 8%. Romanians, probably Gypsies, along with the Irish are also at 8% with Jamaicans at 5%. Of course, a lot of the Jamaicans, not to mention ethnic Asian inmates, probably have British citizenship. In Ireland – Northern and the Republic – Lithuanians would almost certainly be at the top or at least second place.

  620. @AP
    @anonymous coward

    Thanks for again demonstrating yourself being wrong as usual.


    Kotlyarevski published in St. Petersburg, not in Kiev. His target audience was educated Russian speakers, not “Little Russian” swineherders.
     
    While it was indeed published in St. Petersburg (this is perhaps the first correct thing you have written or thought in three months), Eneida was first published by another Ukrainian, who was living there, Maxym Parpura:

    https://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/Парпура_Максим_Йосипович

    His target audience was the many Ukrainains who were living in St. Petersburg and occupied a lot of administrative posts.

    The problem with your fake claim that it was written in the Russian language is that it is available online:

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/38/Eneida_Osipov_Kotlayrevsky.jpg

    Left page Russian, right page Little Russian/Ukrainian. It's as close to modern Ukrainian as late 18th century English is to modern English.


    What you call the “Ukrainian language” is a fake and gay invented language like Esperanto, created in the 20th century.
     
    As we can see above, there is an example from the 1790s. Earlier examples occur in the early 1600s.

    Russian, loaded up with Church Slavonic and French words, is far more artificial and invented than is Ukrainian. I already made this point before, you are not only wrong but unoriginal. From another anon poster:

    "...modern Russian, from the historic perspective, is a very young and largely artificially created language, a sort of Esperanto; and it hasn’t had enough time, unlike Ukrainian, to develop the variety of linguistic forms and shortcuts that emerge only when a language is used naturally and for a long period of time by common people communicating with one another daily , rather than via being concocted in an ivory tower. As a result, there’re thousands of Ukrainian shortcut adverbs (e.g.: торік, чимдуж, etc.) that can be expressed in Russian only by using a combination of three separate words. Likewise, Ukrainian has three single-word superlative degrees, while Russian has only one…Ukrainian has single-word forms of Future Imperfect (e.g. матиму, матимемо, матимеш, матиме, матимуть) completely absent from Russian. Ukrainian has the Plus Quam Perfectum tense (e.g. він почав був читати, та його зупинили); Russian doesn’t. And the list goes on and on.

    Another example: “the single-word Future Imperfect (майбутній час недоконаного виду) that is absent from Russian where it can be formed only with the Future form of the auxiliary verb “to be”. E.g. “We will live” in Russian can be formed only as “Мы будем жить”, whereas in Ukrainian, both as “Ми житимемо” (one word for “will live”) and “Ми будемо жити” (“to be” in the Future + Infinitive). Another tense Russian doesn’t have is Plus Quam Perfectum (Past Perfect in English) called in Ukrainian “давноминулий час” and indicating an action finished before some moment in the past, e.g. “Я був читав”.

    While in U, all of the above forms were present in common everyday speech in the 1700′s (that’s the speech and vocabulary Kotliarevsky used to write “The Aeneid” published in 1798), R at the time was a mere rudiment of what it has become after Pushkin and is today."


    P.S. Kotlyarevsky’s “Aeneid” is incredibly crass, even by modern debased standards.
     
    Mozart:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leck_mich_im_Arsch

    "Leck mich im Arsch" (literally "Lick me in the arse") is a canon in B-flat major composed by Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, K. 231 (K. 382c), with lyrics in German. It was one of a set of at least six canons probably written in Vienna in 1782

    And you must hate Chaucer then:

    The Miller's Tale, by Geoffrey Chaucer

    This Absolon gan wype his mouth ful drie.
    Derk was the nyght as pich, or as a cole
    An at the wyndow out she putte her hole,
    and Ansolon, hym fil no bet ne wers
    But with his mouth he kiste hir naked ers
    Ful savorly, er he were war of this.
    Aback he stirte and thoghte it was amys,
    For wel he wiste a womman hath no berd,
    He felte a thyng al rough and long yherd,
    And seyde, "Fy! Allas! what have I to do?"

    Translation into modern English:

    Absolon wiped his mouth dry.
    The night was as dark as pitch, or as coal,
    And out the window she stuck her hole,
    And Absolon it befell no better or worse,
    But with his mouth he kissed her naked arse,
    Savoring it before he knew what it was.
    Back he jumped and thought it was strange,
    For well he knew a woman has no beard.
    He felt a thing all rough and long haired
    And said, "Fie! Alas! what have I done?"

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Gerard1234

    Your command of the facts is on full display here again, and your conclusions are logical and true. How many times must you show this dilitente the back door?…

    • Replies: @AP
    @Mr. Hack

    Thank you!

  621. @Mr. Hack
    @Korenchkin

    I think that you've made some pretty decent comments here (especially #385) pointing out some questionable points within AP's arguments. Actually, I think AP (as ususal) is right on with the facts he presents, but I don't quite know where he's going with all of this? He even admits, that an important sub-component of the Ukrainian ethnos is "Balkanoid", so perhaps he should be a little more judicious to these folks. :-) He's even conceded that it's rather likely that the Croats, another "Balkanoid" people probably got there first strong impetus from the White Croat tribe centered in Western Ukraine.

    Nobody here has contradiced his claim that perhaps no more than 25% of the modern day Serbian ethnos has real "superace" slavic genetic structure. My question is where is AP going with all of this? Does this mean that the Serbian nation today is somehow inferior to Poland, Ukraine, Byelorus or even Russia? Is the civilization that they've created for themselves somehow suffered due to a loss of "superace" genes? I think he has a long way to go to subtantiate anything like this.

    On a lighter note, it's reassuring to see that AK has upped his claim to superace genes from 50% to 65%. (I always suspected that this was the cae, even though I showed in an earlier thread that his clan probably originated in Ireland). :-)

    Replies: @AP, @Korenchkin, @Denis

    Actually, I think AP (as ususal) is right on with the facts he presents, but I don’t quite know where he’s going with all of this?

    Just to point out the ridiculousness of Balkanoids being also some sort of pan-Slavists, when they are hardly Slavic by descent and are basically just Slavic by language. It would be like if some Guatemalan Mestizos proclaimed themselves to be uber-Spaniard patriots or African-Americans hardcore “Germanics.”

    It was partly on the basis of this fake mythology that the tragedies of the early 20th century happened. I also think that this fake idea drives soem Serbs to volunteer to come to Donbas and shoot at Ukrainians.

    He even admits, that an important sub-compnent of the Ukrainian ethnmos is “Balkanoid”

    This may explain why Ukrainans, on average, are not quite as smart as their Polish and Russian neighbors. I suspect they are comparable to southern Russians (who are not quite as smart as the Russian average), or Slovaks. Ukrainians are probably around 10% Balkanoid. Maybe that is why.

    Does this mean that the Serbian nation today is somehow inferior to Poland, Ukraine, Byelorus or even Russia?

    Why “even” Russia? Russia is the most successful of the Slavic countries. If it weren’t destroyed by Bolshevism it might very likely have become a global hyperpower.

    Balkan peoples, on average, are not as smart as Slavs. That’s a fact.

    PISA scores again (Slavic nations and Balkan nations in bold):

    https://isteve.blogspot.com/2013/12/overall-pisa-rankings-include-america.html

    Finland 529
    Poland 521
    Switzerland 518
    White Americans 518
    Germany 515

    Czech Republic 500
    Slovenia 499
    Hungary 487
    Lithuania 484
    Croatia 482
    Russia 481*
    Slovakia 472

    Hispanic Americans 465

    Serbia 447
    Bulgaria 440
    Romania 440

    African Americans 434

    Montenegro 414
    Albania 395

    Is the civilization that they’ve created for themselves somehow suffered due to a loss of “superace” genes?

    Well, they aren’t very Slavic by descent. But they are also in a tough neighborhood with a bad history.

    *Russia is 20% non-Slavic. The Tatars, Chechens, etc. bring the Russian average way down.

    • Replies: @melanf
    @AP


    PISA scores again (Slavic nations and Balkan nations in bold):
     
    It is at the moment its incorrect information (what have you been told before), That PISA 2015
    https://www.oecd.org/pisa/pisa-2015-results-in-focus.pdf

    Finland 523
    Slovenia 509
    Germany 508
    Switzerland 506
    Poland 504
    Russia 492
    Czech Republic 491
    Hungary 475
    Lithuania 475
    Croatia 475
    Slovakia 463
    Serbia Absent in List
    Bulgaria 440
    Romania 434
    Montenegro 419
    Albania 415

    Replies: @AP, @Thulean Friend

  622. @Mr. Hack
    @AP

    Your command of the facts is on full display here again, and your conclusions are logical and true. How many times must you show this dilitente the back door?...

    Replies: @AP

    Thank you!

  623. @LondonBob
    @Dmitry

    The film has very different themes to the book 'Last of the Mohicans'. The different worldview of an early American compared to the ideological propaganda of late twentieth centiry Jewish Hollywood. Indians are portrayed much more negatively, there is little conflict between colonists and British authorities and the martial prowess of British regulars is accurately portrayed.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    I don’t know the book.

    But Last of the Mohicans – this is definitely the most stylish and aesthetic film about American history.

    In the 1980s, Hollywood films are some of the best of any cinematic history. Last of the Mohicans, Bladerunner, Aliens.

    I wonder why America cannot make great films like that now. It’s only 30 years later, and yet in the 21st century nobody can make films of even half of this level.

    • Agree: Philip Owen
    • Replies: @Kent Nationalist
    @Dmitry


    I wonder why America cannot make great films like that now. It’s only 30 years later, and yet in the 21st century nobody can make films of even half of this level.

     

    Audiences no longer have a sense of shame
    , @songbird
    @Dmitry


    I wonder why America cannot make great films like that now. It’s only 30 years later
     
    The barrier to financial success in film has gotten much lower, so it is less necessary for films to be a critical success.

    Partly, this is due to a bigger global audience, partly due to changed distribution channels, partly it is due to changed demographics in the US. I believe the majority of movie goers in the US are no longer white.

    There is also a pretty sharp political change that has come from the internet, which has encouraged virtue-signaling.

    But, if I had to reduce it all to one statement, I'd say America no longer has a culture, and good art is properly part of culture. I think this really shows in overseas adaptations. When the Japanese adapt an idea from the West, it is a Japanese take on an idea. When America adapts an idea from Japan, despite all the angry SJWs, it is a globalist adaptation, not an American one.

    Replies: @Dmitry

  624. @Dmitry
    @LondonBob

    I don't know the book.

    But Last of the Mohicans - this is definitely the most stylish and aesthetic film about American history.

    In the 1980s, Hollywood films are some of the best of any cinematic history. Last of the Mohicans, Bladerunner, Aliens.

    I wonder why America cannot make great films like that now. It's only 30 years later, and yet in the 21st century nobody can make films of even half of this level.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaQeVnN6pUc

    Replies: @Kent Nationalist, @songbird

    I wonder why America cannot make great films like that now. It’s only 30 years later, and yet in the 21st century nobody can make films of even half of this level.

    Audiences no longer have a sense of shame

  625. Your point is clear. However, there must be individuals within the Balkan peoples that score very high on IQ tests etc that indicates that genetics does not wholly explain the differences in IQ among the nationalities. In Ukraine’s instance, it doesn’t seem possible that the minute influx of Serbians into the southern Ukrainian steppe could have had such a negative influence on the overall population. Where else could these Balkanoids have come from to comprise 10% of the Ukrainain gene structure? Our Romanian friend Seraphim undoubtedly possesses a high IQ, as I’m sure many other Balkanoids do too.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Mr. Hack


    Your point is clear. However, there must be individuals within the Balkan peoples that score very high on IQ tests etc that indicates that genetics does not wholly explain the differences in IQ among the nationalities.
     
    IQ averages across populations don't explain geniuses (who are extreme outlier anyways) and can't explain stuff like the German miracle of the 19th century or the Greek miracle in ancient times. The Serb Tesla may have been more brilliant than any individual Slav, after all. I've known very smart blacks, but their population average is not very good.

    But IQ averages tell us something about overall societal trends and what one can expect from people, collectively.

    In Ukraine’s instance, it doesn’t seem possible that the minute influx of Serbians into the southern Ukrainian steppe could have had such a negative influence on the overall population.
     
    Ukraine's Balkanoid admixture is ancient and doesn't have anything to do with the minute Serb settlement. It has to do with ancient tribes and ratios of mixing and migration before recorded history. I wonder of Trypillians were Balkanoids who were absorbed by Slavs moving southward. Or over the centuries small numbers of Romanians or proto-Romanians mixed with neighboring Slavs in Ukraine (for similar reasons, Romanians are more Slavic by descent than are their Slavic-speaking Balkan neighbors even though Romanians don't speak a Slavic language).

    Replies: @Simpleguest, @Korenchkin, @Mr. Hack, @Philip Owen

    , @Thorfinnsson
    @Mr. Hack

    If Ukrainians actually are dimmer than Russians, Balkanoid and perhaps Tatar admixture play a role. But I would suspect the main causes are:

    1) The North-South East Slavic cline, with northerners being more intelligent. These northern East Slavs are in Belarus and Russia, but not the Ukraine.

    2) Since the Ukraine has rarely had an independent existence, over the past few centuries ambitious Ukrainians have ended up relocating imperial centers and gradually assimilating in those ethnic groups. So many talented Ukrainians over time became Polish or Russian (or rather their descendants did). There may also be a non-trivial impact by Italian and Turkish slaving operations, depending on what sort of slaves were captured and how many.

    You can see something similar at work in Scotland. Three centuries ago there was a Scottish Enlightenment. Today there is Trainspotting and culinary "innovations" like deep fried pizza and deep fried Mars bars. That is because since the Act of Union talented Scots have relocated to England, other points in the British Empire, and the United States (Andrew Carnegie).

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @AnonFromTN, @RadicalCenter, @dux.ie

  626. @reiner Tor
    @Beckow

    Swiss trains are not very fast (mountains and all that), but I don't think they're any slower than trains in Slovakia.


    Switzerland is not that well organised.
     
    LOL

    the pace is leisurely
     
    The Swiss don't work a lot. They work well. In that, they are pretty similar to the Japanese (though the Japanese have the edge, obviously). The Japanese also work more, at least nominally (though much of the time they spend nominally at work is not connected to doing the job).

    and incompetence quite common.
     
    Common relative to what? They now have lots of non-Swiss working everywhere, almost a quarter of their population is foreigner, and that number doesn't include naturalized foreigners or half-foreigners and their descendants.

    Replies: @anonymous coward, @Dmitry

    It is reported that Japanese have extremely high working hours, but not high productivity during those hours. Maybe the Japanese boss goes home early, but the Japanese salaryman can often likes to work in the office until 11pm or even 1am.

    Personally, I am similar, and sometimes work in the office until 3am. But this is only because I like to waste so much time during the day relaxing or watching YouTube videos or “having a break” for every hour I work.

    I don’t understand economists’ emphasis on productivity per hour. Because a lot of people like to have low productivity per hour, but simply to “work” for more hours (low productivity per hour can be basically just a way of diluting the intensity of the work and making it more relaxing, less stressful).

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @Dmitry

    Once you had a family, you'd understand why it's especially bad to spend very long hours in the office.

    I'd also mention that it prohibits your healthy socialization (since you have already written you were totally not on the autism spectrum, an information I totally trust, it's something you would easily understand), and makes it very difficult for you to get involved in a number of healthy or otherwise positive activities (spending a lot of time outdoors, doing sports, reading books, etc.), so it's not very healthy. Being forced into it (like the Japanese) means that people who would actually prefer to do all those things (family, socializing with other people, being outdoors, doing sports, reading books, whatever) are forced to reduce themselves to watching YouTube videos and playing video games in the office. Pretty bad for all those people.

    Replies: @Dmitry

  627. @Korenchkin
    @AP


    Because there is no such thing as a real “pan-Germanic” movement
     
    There isn't a real pan-Slavic movement either, though both existed in the past
    But that it entirely beside the point

    African-Americans (who speak a Germanic language) bragging about being “Germanics” and the same people as other Germanics.
     
    Again, another false equivalence
    Southern Slavs have been Slavs since Slavs were recorded in history, them not having the same genetics as Northern groups does not disqualify them just as Germans and Swedes do not try to qualify eachother as "real Germanics"
    Neither do Southern Slavs claim to be the same people, I repeat, Serbs do not claim to be Russians nor do Croats claim to be Poles but they can easily assimilate in eachothers societies because they are very similar but still distinct
    Try seeing an African or Native American fully assimilate in a European country

    In fact, the reasons the New Serbia region vanished was because the Serbs there assimilated so completely that there was no distinction between them and the local Russians/Ukranians/Poles anymore
    African-Americans had an entirely alien culture from another continent imposed onto them, South Slavs were created out of a mingling of two European groups who were familiar to eachother, South Slavic culture and language was created, modified and preserved by the South Slavs themselves, it wasn't created in the Dnieper region and then exported by some organised colonization in the 15th Century

    The comparison to Negros would make sense if you were talking about the Russian speaking Central Asians or the Russified Yakuts, but it doesn't work in the context of the South Slavs

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @AP

    Southern Slavs have been Slavs since Slavs were recorded in history,

    Epigon seemed to show that there were a Slavic people called Serbs who kept their distance from Balkanoids until the Ottoman occupation, when they were swamped by and absorbed by the Balkanoids. Now those mixed, Slavic-langage speaking people are still called Serbs. Modern Serbs are only about 25% Slavic.*

    It would be like if a population of 25% English and 75% African slaves got mixed together but still referred to themselves as “Englishmen.” And celebrated English heroes as “their” heroes. Okay, fine, they can call themselves what they want. But that wouldn’t make them a “Germanic” people. And they would be utterly ridiculous if they followed some kind of pan-Germanic cause. Even more so if this pan-Germanism brought them into confict with actual Germanics like Swedes or Germans.
    Croats are more Slavic than Serbs, and Ukrainians unlike Serbs are actual Slavs. Yet out of some pan-Slavism these Balkanoids have gotten into conflicts with them.

    Try seeing an African or Native American fully assimilate in a European country
    In fact, the reasons the New Serbia region vanished was because the Serbs there assimilated so completely that there was no distinction between them and the local Russians/Ukranians/Poles anymore

    There were also very few of them. Mexico and Argentina totally absorbed their small colonial-era African populatons. But sure, Balkanoids, like Arabs, Greeks or Caucasians, are Caucasian people. Though they aren’t Slavs.

    *I guess if in the future England gets totally swamped by Jamaicans, Nigerians, Pakistanis etc. so that eventually the people in England will be only of 25% English origin, largely mixed but still English-speaking, we will have a rough analogue to modern Serbs vs. medieval Serbs.

    • Replies: @Korenchkin
    @AP

    Those White Serbs wouldn't have accomplished much without the Balkan natives, since they relied on them and other mercenaries to fight their wars and did intermarry with them once they spent enough time with them

    The main Hero myth of the Serbs, rooted in history, is the Kosovo battle, the story of the battle is uniting disparate groups under the banner of Serbs
    Tsar Dušan himself was obviously of I2 stock since he was brown haired, brown eyed and described as uncommonly tall
    That 25% gives us a relation to the other Slavs but provides distinction in the same way Swedes are related to Germans but distinct

    The word you are looking for is Proto-Slavic, in which case I would agree, the most Proto-Slavic people are probably Belorussians while the Balkans are obviously less Proto-Slavic
    Just as Germans are less Proto-Germanic then Danes or Swedes, but are still Germanics
    Though the Balkans did have a large Proto-Slavic population in the past it got culled in the near constant and brutal fighting that the region suffered from over the course of 1000 years


    And celebrated English heroes as “their” heroes.
     
    We have several heroes from different ages, we don't need to nick them from other Slavs, if that was what you were implying

    conflict
     
    The conflict in Ukraine doesn't stem out of Pan-Slavism, it stems out of Pan-Rus-ism and CIA niggers

    And Germanics have given up on all ethnic politics, thus allowing themselves to get swamped by subhumans, now you have Africans with exactly 0% Germanic in them claiming to be Swedes
    Pan-Ethnic movements are useful once developed, it allowed for the creation of the most powerfull European country (at the time)
    The groundwork for it was layed long before Bismarck arrived, he just used it smartly while Slavs use it poorly
  628. @Mr. Hack
    @Korenchkin

    I think that you've made some pretty decent comments here (especially #385) pointing out some questionable points within AP's arguments. Actually, I think AP (as ususal) is right on with the facts he presents, but I don't quite know where he's going with all of this? He even admits, that an important sub-component of the Ukrainian ethnos is "Balkanoid", so perhaps he should be a little more judicious to these folks. :-) He's even conceded that it's rather likely that the Croats, another "Balkanoid" people probably got there first strong impetus from the White Croat tribe centered in Western Ukraine.

    Nobody here has contradiced his claim that perhaps no more than 25% of the modern day Serbian ethnos has real "superace" slavic genetic structure. My question is where is AP going with all of this? Does this mean that the Serbian nation today is somehow inferior to Poland, Ukraine, Byelorus or even Russia? Is the civilization that they've created for themselves somehow suffered due to a loss of "superace" genes? I think he has a long way to go to subtantiate anything like this.

    On a lighter note, it's reassuring to see that AK has upped his claim to superace genes from 50% to 65%. (I always suspected that this was the cae, even though I showed in an earlier thread that his clan probably originated in Ireland). :-)

    Replies: @AP, @Korenchkin, @Denis

    superace

    One branch of this super race is launching men to the ISS from Baikonur, one is selling it’s daughters to Kikes in Tel Aviv, one is fighting against another branch in Donetsk and one is fucking little boys in Kabul
    No one is safe from bad branches, and sometimes they need to broken or trimmed (sorry Weihan)

    South Slavs helped found the American space program (Pupin), charted the Earths movements over thousands of years (Milankovic) and defined the boundry of the Earths crust and mantle layer (Mohorovcic), there were even Serbs working on the Appolo program (Vucelic and at least 6 others)
    This isn’t even to mention Tesla and the Cyrillic alphabet
    Under the right conditions a healthy tree could grow here, even if not as fruit bearing as other trees

    I do not want them compared to Africans and Mestizos

    Looking at Ukraine today it is easy to poke at it and make nasty comparisons but it would be unfair and posters here disrespect Ukranians sometimes too much (though you are asking for it sometimes), so I know you understand this feeling
    Everyone here wants Ukraine to prosper, we only disagree under which flag

    Since Western Europe and Anglosphere have decided to commit suicide by immigration it falls to Slavs and East Asians to carry the metaphorical torch, and the questions we discuss here will need to be answered if we are a to have a future together
    A united Slavic state is unlikely and foolish to expect, but something like a Slavic EU or the Intermarrium are not, should NATO and/or the EU collapse these will be the options on the table

    I don’t want you or AP to stop posting, but I do want posts to be of a higher quality, though I also do want to own a unicorn too (heres hoping for crispr ponies)

    • Replies: @AP
    @Korenchkin

    Thanks. I try to be objective, and generally am. As I wrote, I have far more sympathy for Serbs than for Turks or Albanians (the theft of Kosovo was a crime) and I certainly don't wish ill upon your people. Even though you aren't real Slavs :-)

    Replies: @utu

    , @Mr. Hack
    @Korenchkin

    Perhaps one flaw in AP's analogy between the meztisos 'specious' claim to Spanish heritage and South Slav adherence to a Slavic one, notwithstanding the inclusion of non-Slavic older Balkan elements, is that the later includes the melding of two sub-groups of the same race, whereas in the former it's comprised actually of two groups from different races?

    Replies: @AP

    , @Denis
    @Korenchkin

    This was an excellent comment. Particularly:


    Looking at Ukraine today it is easy to poke at it and make nasty comparisons but it would be unfair and posters here disrespect Ukranians sometimes too much (though you are asking for it sometimes), so I know you understand this feeling
    Everyone here wants Ukraine to prosper, we only disagree under which flag
     
  629. @Mr. Hack
    Your point is clear. However, there must be individuals within the Balkan peoples that score very high on IQ tests etc that indicates that genetics does not wholly explain the differences in IQ among the nationalities. In Ukraine's instance, it doesn't seem possible that the minute influx of Serbians into the southern Ukrainian steppe could have had such a negative influence on the overall population. Where else could these Balkanoids have come from to comprise 10% of the Ukrainain gene structure? Our Romanian friend Seraphim undoubtedly possesses a high IQ, as I'm sure many other Balkanoids do too.

    Replies: @AP, @Thorfinnsson

    Your point is clear. However, there must be individuals within the Balkan peoples that score very high on IQ tests etc that indicates that genetics does not wholly explain the differences in IQ among the nationalities.

    IQ averages across populations don’t explain geniuses (who are extreme outlier anyways) and can’t explain stuff like the German miracle of the 19th century or the Greek miracle in ancient times. The Serb Tesla may have been more brilliant than any individual Slav, after all. I’ve known very smart blacks, but their population average is not very good.

    But IQ averages tell us something about overall societal trends and what one can expect from people, collectively.

    In Ukraine’s instance, it doesn’t seem possible that the minute influx of Serbians into the southern Ukrainian steppe could have had such a negative influence on the overall population.

    Ukraine’s Balkanoid admixture is ancient and doesn’t have anything to do with the minute Serb settlement. It has to do with ancient tribes and ratios of mixing and migration before recorded history. I wonder of Trypillians were Balkanoids who were absorbed by Slavs moving southward. Or over the centuries small numbers of Romanians or proto-Romanians mixed with neighboring Slavs in Ukraine (for similar reasons, Romanians are more Slavic by descent than are their Slavic-speaking Balkan neighbors even though Romanians don’t speak a Slavic language).

    • Replies: @Simpleguest
    @AP

    "...for similar reasons, Romanians are more Slavic by descent than are their Slavic-speaking Balkan neighbors even though Romanians don’t speak a Slavic language"

    LOL. What a mess.

    , @Korenchkin
    @AP


    Romanians are more Slavic by descent than are their Slavic-speaking Balkan neighbors even though Romanians don’t speak a Slavic language
     
    What's the proof for that, their R1a content?
    Does that mean R1a Pashtuns and Tajiks are Slavic too?

    Replies: @AP

    , @Mr. Hack
    @AP


    I wonder of Trypillians were Balkanoids who were absorbed by Slavs moving southward.
     
    You could be on to something here. This old ethnicity was pretty much evenly spread between both Romania and Ukraine. It might have played a greater role in the Romanian genetic structure for even today, with all of the immigration out of Ukraine going on, Romania still has roughtly half the population of Ukraine, 19.400,000 vs 42,000,000 (2019 estimates). There's no doubt, that Hungary has had a very large percentage of Slavic dilution in its ethnogenesis, both Ukrainian mostly from Transcarpathia and South Slav.
    , @Philip Owen
    @AP

    The usual explanation for 19th C, indeed 20th C too, German acheivment is education and training. Training is important; the lower and middle ranks are nurtured and valued not just the top.

    Notoriously, 19th C Serbs elected to tax school books instead of vodka.

  630. @Kent Nationalist
    @Thulean Friend

    He looks like he uses reddit.

    Are there any countries which have succeeded in limiting access to pornography?

    An automatic block unless you applied for an exemption was supposed to have been implemented here, but is being perpetually delayed.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Thulean Friend

    Well, most Middle Eastern countries will formally have it illegal watching pornography – however they will probably lack state capacity to block it on the internet.

    As Israel becomes more culturally Middle Eastern every year, they are now wanting to demotivate people to access it in their ISP (and they criminalized prostitution as well this year).

    Perhaps if a new centre-left government is elected, they will be undo this.

    The Knesset approved the first reading of a bill limiting the Israeli access to porn-sites and sites presenting adult-related materials on Tuesday.

    Designed to protect minors from exposure and consumption of pornographic content, the bill demands web-service providers to send a message to house-holds with internet access asking if they wish to have such sites blocked or not.

    Should they decline the offer they will be asked to provide personal information proving that they are adults and are the ones paying for the service.

    Israelis who do not respond to these messages will still be able to access the internet, but will be sent this message every three months.

    For each Israeli who wishes the web provider to block adult content on his or her service, the web provider will get NIS 2 from the State of Israel, which allocated NIS 5 million annually for a decade.

    The Knesset also approved adopting the Nordic Model in relation to sex workers this week.

    The new law, which will go into effect in 18 months, will criminalize the hiring of sex workers and is a part of a fuller effort to establish social and mental support to help people in the sex work industry to exit the field before the law comes into effect.

    The Nordic Model, which criminalizes people who hire sex workers, is the toughest legal framework designed to end sex work in the West. Seen by some as a needed legal step to prevent the abuse of women, men, and minors who are doing sex work – the law is seen by others as a state intervention on people’s right’s and bodies as well as a criminalizing human activity that will be very hard to prevent.

    https://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Ahead-of-elections-Knesset-pushes-porn-sex-workers-laws-576038

  631. @Korenchkin
    @Mr. Hack


    superace
     
    One branch of this super race is launching men to the ISS from Baikonur, one is selling it's daughters to Kikes in Tel Aviv, one is fighting against another branch in Donetsk and one is fucking little boys in Kabul
    No one is safe from bad branches, and sometimes they need to broken or trimmed (sorry Weihan)

    South Slavs helped found the American space program (Pupin), charted the Earths movements over thousands of years (Milankovic) and defined the boundry of the Earths crust and mantle layer (Mohorovcic), there were even Serbs working on the Appolo program (Vucelic and at least 6 others)
    This isn't even to mention Tesla and the Cyrillic alphabet
    Under the right conditions a healthy tree could grow here, even if not as fruit bearing as other trees

    I do not want them compared to Africans and Mestizos

    Looking at Ukraine today it is easy to poke at it and make nasty comparisons but it would be unfair and posters here disrespect Ukranians sometimes too much (though you are asking for it sometimes), so I know you understand this feeling
    Everyone here wants Ukraine to prosper, we only disagree under which flag

    Since Western Europe and Anglosphere have decided to commit suicide by immigration it falls to Slavs and East Asians to carry the metaphorical torch, and the questions we discuss here will need to be answered if we are a to have a future together
    A united Slavic state is unlikely and foolish to expect, but something like a Slavic EU or the Intermarrium are not, should NATO and/or the EU collapse these will be the options on the table

    I don't want you or AP to stop posting, but I do want posts to be of a higher quality, though I also do want to own a unicorn too (heres hoping for crispr ponies)

    Replies: @AP, @Mr. Hack, @Denis

    Thanks. I try to be objective, and generally am. As I wrote, I have far more sympathy for Serbs than for Turks or Albanians (the theft of Kosovo was a crime) and I certainly don’t wish ill upon your people. Even though you aren’t real Slavs 🙂

    • Replies: @utu
    @AP

    "...you aren’t real Slavs... " - Where did you get this meme? To what purpose? Why do you keep pounding it?

    Sad but unavoidable deterioration of quality of AK commentariat. Stupidity is infectious. The root of AK weltanschauung is evil and will always lead to trolling.

    Replies: @AP

  632. @Korenchkin
    @Simpleguest


    why was Yugoslavia a disastrous project
     
    You said in the other post that you were talking about post WW2 Yugoslavia, so let's go over some facts that Yugonostalgics like to ignore
    Firstly after WW2 there were massacres of WW1 Serb war veterans, successfull peasants (my family just barely dodged this fate, by having their farm wrecked by the war and no longer being successfull) and other useful individuals that Communists like to murder

    Then came the border redrawings, the biggest loser was Serbia, having millions of Serbs cut out and having things like Montenegrin identity enforced by the state
    Serbia was the only republic with 2 autonomous provinces within it, the millions of Serbs in Croatia, Bosnia, Macedonia and Montenegro got no such benefit
    https://www.rastko.rs/istorija/srbi-balkan/img/fry4b.jpg

    Industry from the Serbian republic was moved to "punish Serbia for it's imperialism" towards Western republics, this is what we get for covering Bosnia, Croatia and Slovenia during Versailles and ensuring they don't suffer the penalties of being the loser state in the biggest war in history
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relocation_of_Serbian_industry_during_the_Informbiro_period

    Refugees from Enver Hoxha were allowed to settle in Kosovo and Macedonia (both were already flashpoints but this just put more dry wood on the pile for future fires), the Macedonian region where the Albanians settled was once a Serb majority region and Kosovo is one of the cradle provinces of Serbia (Alongside Rashka and Montenegro) now they're overrun by those animals
    The plan was to annex Albania as another Yugo republic but Stalin cockblocked Tito

    Everyone was moved from the countryside into tiny bugman apartments in various cities and fertility collapsed (this was a problem for every republic tho)

    And above all it FAILED, nobody would be hating on Soviet Communists today if they created a successfull socialist paradise and nobody would be hating on Yugoslavists if they didn't fuck it all up after dear leader died, leaving us with less land then in fucking 1914 and with North Korea tier indoctrinated boomers and totally blackpilled Zoomers

    Recreate the Serbian medieval state, perhaps?
     
    No, we had a Serbian state in the 19th and 20th Century, so we have a lot of work cut out for us on that front
    The legacy of things like Dušans code and the Serbian constitution from the 19th Century serve as proof that we were not total idiotic tribal savages and for good national myth making (something all nations need)

    What needs to be adressed is the massive blackpill of society and to end the cargo cults and degeneracy fests, we've seen a lot of positive development recently but there is a long path to go
    We were punched into the dirt several times during the 20th Century but we survived, we pick ourselves up and we carry on

    Replies: @Simpleguest

    OK. We’ll leave it at that.
    I sincerely hope that you will eventually (and soon) recognize that own national myths are the biggest enemy of a nation (just look no further then the “exceptional” nation).
    I wish you well.

    • Replies: @Korenchkin
    @Simpleguest


    own national myths are the biggest enemy of a nation
     
    Depends which kind I guess
    I hate overly masturbatory history, I prefer well sourced history arranged to form the prefered narrative (history doesn't have a default narrative, it always needs to be fictional but that doesn't mean it needs to be false)

    One should toe a fine line of being honest but also marketing yourself
    Karlins suggestion of creating a Russian museum and framing the narrative the same way Jews do it is the perfect example
    The Jews keep getting expelled but it's because of those evil anti-semites, Russians would have a much easier time with it since they are way less despicable then kikes and have arguably suffered more through their history (what with originating in the most inhospitable region on the planet)

    Most Slavs ought to frame their histories this way: "Times are often hard, but we gain wisdom from those hard times and we come back stronger"
    Then give a list of previous successes to prove it's not all empty hopes and a complementary funny hat

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

  633. @AP
    @Korenchkin


    Southern Slavs have been Slavs since Slavs were recorded in history,
     
    Epigon seemed to show that there were a Slavic people called Serbs who kept their distance from Balkanoids until the Ottoman occupation, when they were swamped by and absorbed by the Balkanoids. Now those mixed, Slavic-langage speaking people are still called Serbs. Modern Serbs are only about 25% Slavic.*

    It would be like if a population of 25% English and 75% African slaves got mixed together but still referred to themselves as "Englishmen." And celebrated English heroes as "their" heroes. Okay, fine, they can call themselves what they want. But that wouldn't make them a "Germanic" people. And they would be utterly ridiculous if they followed some kind of pan-Germanic cause. Even more so if this pan-Germanism brought them into confict with actual Germanics like Swedes or Germans.
    Croats are more Slavic than Serbs, and Ukrainians unlike Serbs are actual Slavs. Yet out of some pan-Slavism these Balkanoids have gotten into conflicts with them.

    Try seeing an African or Native American fully assimilate in a European country
    In fact, the reasons the New Serbia region vanished was because the Serbs there assimilated so completely that there was no distinction between them and the local Russians/Ukranians/Poles anymore
     
    There were also very few of them. Mexico and Argentina totally absorbed their small colonial-era African populatons. But sure, Balkanoids, like Arabs, Greeks or Caucasians, are Caucasian people. Though they aren't Slavs.

    *I guess if in the future England gets totally swamped by Jamaicans, Nigerians, Pakistanis etc. so that eventually the people in England will be only of 25% English origin, largely mixed but still English-speaking, we will have a rough analogue to modern Serbs vs. medieval Serbs.

    Replies: @Korenchkin

    Those White Serbs wouldn’t have accomplished much without the Balkan natives, since they relied on them and other mercenaries to fight their wars and did intermarry with them once they spent enough time with them

    The main Hero myth of the Serbs, rooted in history, is the Kosovo battle, the story of the battle is uniting disparate groups under the banner of Serbs
    Tsar Dušan himself was obviously of I2 stock since he was brown haired, brown eyed and described as uncommonly tall
    That 25% gives us a relation to the other Slavs but provides distinction in the same way Swedes are related to Germans but distinct

    The word you are looking for is Proto-Slavic, in which case I would agree, the most Proto-Slavic people are probably Belorussians while the Balkans are obviously less Proto-Slavic
    Just as Germans are less Proto-Germanic then Danes or Swedes, but are still Germanics
    Though the Balkans did have a large Proto-Slavic population in the past it got culled in the near constant and brutal fighting that the region suffered from over the course of 1000 years

    And celebrated English heroes as “their” heroes.

    We have several heroes from different ages, we don’t need to nick them from other Slavs, if that was what you were implying

    conflict

    The conflict in Ukraine doesn’t stem out of Pan-Slavism, it stems out of Pan-Rus-ism and CIA niggers

    And Germanics have given up on all ethnic politics, thus allowing themselves to get swamped by subhumans, now you have Africans with exactly 0% Germanic in them claiming to be Swedes
    Pan-Ethnic movements are useful once developed, it allowed for the creation of the most powerfull European country (at the time)
    The groundwork for it was layed long before Bismarck arrived, he just used it smartly while Slavs use it poorly

  634. @Gerad. 1
    @Dmitry

    Cmon Dmitry, you're a very smart guy. It is in my opinion,total BS about the separation of church and state. In say ,1915 or 1855, there was less chance of a Roman Catholic being allowed to be US President, than there is now for the King of Saudi Arabia to be Orthodox jewish.
    Prohibition of Alcohol in the 1920s had a large Wasp vs Catholic political side to it.

    As for the eccentricities of the Mormon religion .....that is nothing more than a manifestation of Amercan insecurity and maybe even inferiority complex towards the great "old world" in Europe with all this great big history, institutions, science, architecture and so on behind it. At it's most harmless it manifests itself in americans changing English pronunciations of words like anti (pronounced antee) into anTIE......and in other ways manifests itself in these weird methamophising of Christianity which is not just the Mormons but the 7th day Adventists and others. It is more a way of showing a middle finger to the old world, coupled with strange personalities that can develop in a frontier town in a harsh environment ( not much surprise that Conan-Doyle set the very first Sherlock Holmes story on Mormons, he had travelled to Utah)

    I felt a bit of this complexe on my family holiday to Majorca couple of months ago ( and actually on several non Amercan holidays before ) where I hardly came across any americans at the packed out beaches, or the nightclubs or the bars.....but I did come across a huge load of them in the old city and at Palma Cathedral in particular.

    Another side to all this is that in the majority of the west, attitudes to bankruptcy, until relatively recently ,were extremely negative......almost as much as to out of marriage children and faggots. In US there was the same attitude to fag and out of marriage kids......but nowhere near as much social stigma to bankruptcy, where there seems to be no conservatism. That is a big safety net for so-called innovation. Most other western countries would never even think of electing a guy with as many bankruptcies as Trump......and I once recall reading about Romney calling the Detroit car manufacturing industries as filing for bankruptcy as great for them. In the rest of the west they were always more conservative on this issue.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    I think Mormons’ divergence is more extreme, than just ” inferiority complex towards the great “old world””.

    They created a new religion, where they wear “holy underwear” and yet they could have a large scale of independence and control in Utah.

    I don’t know how accurate this description of Mormon theology?

    But they allegedly had in the past, a claim of vengeance against USA for killing Joseph Smith.

  635. @AP
    @Mr. Hack


    Your point is clear. However, there must be individuals within the Balkan peoples that score very high on IQ tests etc that indicates that genetics does not wholly explain the differences in IQ among the nationalities.
     
    IQ averages across populations don't explain geniuses (who are extreme outlier anyways) and can't explain stuff like the German miracle of the 19th century or the Greek miracle in ancient times. The Serb Tesla may have been more brilliant than any individual Slav, after all. I've known very smart blacks, but their population average is not very good.

    But IQ averages tell us something about overall societal trends and what one can expect from people, collectively.

    In Ukraine’s instance, it doesn’t seem possible that the minute influx of Serbians into the southern Ukrainian steppe could have had such a negative influence on the overall population.
     
    Ukraine's Balkanoid admixture is ancient and doesn't have anything to do with the minute Serb settlement. It has to do with ancient tribes and ratios of mixing and migration before recorded history. I wonder of Trypillians were Balkanoids who were absorbed by Slavs moving southward. Or over the centuries small numbers of Romanians or proto-Romanians mixed with neighboring Slavs in Ukraine (for similar reasons, Romanians are more Slavic by descent than are their Slavic-speaking Balkan neighbors even though Romanians don't speak a Slavic language).

    Replies: @Simpleguest, @Korenchkin, @Mr. Hack, @Philip Owen

    “…for similar reasons, Romanians are more Slavic by descent than are their Slavic-speaking Balkan neighbors even though Romanians don’t speak a Slavic language”

    LOL. What a mess.

  636. @Simpleguest
    @Korenchkin

    OK. We'll leave it at that.
    I sincerely hope that you will eventually (and soon) recognize that own national myths are the biggest enemy of a nation (just look no further then the "exceptional" nation).
    I wish you well.

    Replies: @Korenchkin

    own national myths are the biggest enemy of a nation

    Depends which kind I guess
    I hate overly masturbatory history, I prefer well sourced history arranged to form the prefered narrative (history doesn’t have a default narrative, it always needs to be fictional but that doesn’t mean it needs to be false)

    One should toe a fine line of being honest but also marketing yourself
    Karlins suggestion of creating a Russian museum and framing the narrative the same way Jews do it is the perfect example
    The Jews keep getting expelled but it’s because of those evil anti-semites, Russians would have a much easier time with it since they are way less despicable then kikes and have arguably suffered more through their history (what with originating in the most inhospitable region on the planet)

    Most Slavs ought to frame their histories this way: “Times are often hard, but we gain wisdom from those hard times and we come back stronger”
    Then give a list of previous successes to prove it’s not all empty hopes and a complementary funny hat

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    @Korenchkin


    Most Slavs ought to frame their histories this way: “Times are often hard, but we gain wisdom from those hard times and we come back stronger”
     
    Reminds me of an American saying “experience is what you get when you don’t get what you want”.
  637. @AP
    @Mr. Hack


    Your point is clear. However, there must be individuals within the Balkan peoples that score very high on IQ tests etc that indicates that genetics does not wholly explain the differences in IQ among the nationalities.
     
    IQ averages across populations don't explain geniuses (who are extreme outlier anyways) and can't explain stuff like the German miracle of the 19th century or the Greek miracle in ancient times. The Serb Tesla may have been more brilliant than any individual Slav, after all. I've known very smart blacks, but their population average is not very good.

    But IQ averages tell us something about overall societal trends and what one can expect from people, collectively.

    In Ukraine’s instance, it doesn’t seem possible that the minute influx of Serbians into the southern Ukrainian steppe could have had such a negative influence on the overall population.
     
    Ukraine's Balkanoid admixture is ancient and doesn't have anything to do with the minute Serb settlement. It has to do with ancient tribes and ratios of mixing and migration before recorded history. I wonder of Trypillians were Balkanoids who were absorbed by Slavs moving southward. Or over the centuries small numbers of Romanians or proto-Romanians mixed with neighboring Slavs in Ukraine (for similar reasons, Romanians are more Slavic by descent than are their Slavic-speaking Balkan neighbors even though Romanians don't speak a Slavic language).

    Replies: @Simpleguest, @Korenchkin, @Mr. Hack, @Philip Owen

    Romanians are more Slavic by descent than are their Slavic-speaking Balkan neighbors even though Romanians don’t speak a Slavic language

    What’s the proof for that, their R1a content?
    Does that mean R1a Pashtuns and Tajiks are Slavic too?

    • Agree: utu
    • Replies: @AP
    @Korenchkin

    R1A in Europe is associated with Slavs. Since there is no record of Pashtun or Tajik migration into Romania it can be inferred that R1A among Romanians comes from Slavic neighbors rather than from anyone else.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/75/Distribution_Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.svg/220px-Distribution_Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.svg.png

    Moreover Central Asian R1A can be differentiated from Slavic R1A (there is also a Scandinavian R1A - Z284 subclade). Romanians have mostly the Slavic R1A.

  638. @AP
    @Korenchkin

    Thanks. I try to be objective, and generally am. As I wrote, I have far more sympathy for Serbs than for Turks or Albanians (the theft of Kosovo was a crime) and I certainly don't wish ill upon your people. Even though you aren't real Slavs :-)

    Replies: @utu

    “…you aren’t real Slavs… “ – Where did you get this meme? To what purpose? Why do you keep pounding it?

    Sad but unavoidable deterioration of quality of AK commentariat. Stupidity is infectious. The root of AK weltanschauung is evil and will always lead to trolling.

    • Replies: @AP
    @utu


    “…you aren’t real Slavs… “ – Where did you get this meme? To what purpose? Why do you keep pounding it?
     
    I find migration patterns and these self-identifications to be interesting. When I was in New Mexico I saw a population claiming to be Spaniards who spoke a well-preserved 16th century Spanish dialect in their villages. They are, genetics shows, about 20% Indian.

    Sad but unavoidable deterioration of quality of AK commentariat. Stupidity is infectious.
     
    I still enjoy your comments, including your critical ones.
  639. @AP
    @Mr. Hack


    Your point is clear. However, there must be individuals within the Balkan peoples that score very high on IQ tests etc that indicates that genetics does not wholly explain the differences in IQ among the nationalities.
     
    IQ averages across populations don't explain geniuses (who are extreme outlier anyways) and can't explain stuff like the German miracle of the 19th century or the Greek miracle in ancient times. The Serb Tesla may have been more brilliant than any individual Slav, after all. I've known very smart blacks, but their population average is not very good.

    But IQ averages tell us something about overall societal trends and what one can expect from people, collectively.

    In Ukraine’s instance, it doesn’t seem possible that the minute influx of Serbians into the southern Ukrainian steppe could have had such a negative influence on the overall population.
     
    Ukraine's Balkanoid admixture is ancient and doesn't have anything to do with the minute Serb settlement. It has to do with ancient tribes and ratios of mixing and migration before recorded history. I wonder of Trypillians were Balkanoids who were absorbed by Slavs moving southward. Or over the centuries small numbers of Romanians or proto-Romanians mixed with neighboring Slavs in Ukraine (for similar reasons, Romanians are more Slavic by descent than are their Slavic-speaking Balkan neighbors even though Romanians don't speak a Slavic language).

    Replies: @Simpleguest, @Korenchkin, @Mr. Hack, @Philip Owen

    I wonder of Trypillians were Balkanoids who were absorbed by Slavs moving southward.

    You could be on to something here. This old ethnicity was pretty much evenly spread between both Romania and Ukraine. It might have played a greater role in the Romanian genetic structure for even today, with all of the immigration out of Ukraine going on, Romania still has roughtly half the population of Ukraine, 19.400,000 vs 42,000,000 (2019 estimates). There’s no doubt, that Hungary has had a very large percentage of Slavic dilution in its ethnogenesis, both Ukrainian mostly from Transcarpathia and South Slav.

  640. @Korenchkin
    @Mr. Hack


    superace
     
    One branch of this super race is launching men to the ISS from Baikonur, one is selling it's daughters to Kikes in Tel Aviv, one is fighting against another branch in Donetsk and one is fucking little boys in Kabul
    No one is safe from bad branches, and sometimes they need to broken or trimmed (sorry Weihan)

    South Slavs helped found the American space program (Pupin), charted the Earths movements over thousands of years (Milankovic) and defined the boundry of the Earths crust and mantle layer (Mohorovcic), there were even Serbs working on the Appolo program (Vucelic and at least 6 others)
    This isn't even to mention Tesla and the Cyrillic alphabet
    Under the right conditions a healthy tree could grow here, even if not as fruit bearing as other trees

    I do not want them compared to Africans and Mestizos

    Looking at Ukraine today it is easy to poke at it and make nasty comparisons but it would be unfair and posters here disrespect Ukranians sometimes too much (though you are asking for it sometimes), so I know you understand this feeling
    Everyone here wants Ukraine to prosper, we only disagree under which flag

    Since Western Europe and Anglosphere have decided to commit suicide by immigration it falls to Slavs and East Asians to carry the metaphorical torch, and the questions we discuss here will need to be answered if we are a to have a future together
    A united Slavic state is unlikely and foolish to expect, but something like a Slavic EU or the Intermarrium are not, should NATO and/or the EU collapse these will be the options on the table

    I don't want you or AP to stop posting, but I do want posts to be of a higher quality, though I also do want to own a unicorn too (heres hoping for crispr ponies)

    Replies: @AP, @Mr. Hack, @Denis

    Perhaps one flaw in AP’s analogy between the meztisos ‘specious’ claim to Spanish heritage and South Slav adherence to a Slavic one, notwithstanding the inclusion of non-Slavic older Balkan elements, is that the later includes the melding of two sub-groups of the same race, whereas in the former it’s comprised actually of two groups from different races?

    • Replies: @AP
    @Mr. Hack

    The former just makes things more obvious and clears things up.

  641. @Dmitry
    @LondonBob

    I don't know the book.

    But Last of the Mohicans - this is definitely the most stylish and aesthetic film about American history.

    In the 1980s, Hollywood films are some of the best of any cinematic history. Last of the Mohicans, Bladerunner, Aliens.

    I wonder why America cannot make great films like that now. It's only 30 years later, and yet in the 21st century nobody can make films of even half of this level.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaQeVnN6pUc

    Replies: @Kent Nationalist, @songbird

    I wonder why America cannot make great films like that now. It’s only 30 years later

    The barrier to financial success in film has gotten much lower, so it is less necessary for films to be a critical success.

    Partly, this is due to a bigger global audience, partly due to changed distribution channels, partly it is due to changed demographics in the US. I believe the majority of movie goers in the US are no longer white.

    There is also a pretty sharp political change that has come from the internet, which has encouraged virtue-signaling.

    But, if I had to reduce it all to one statement, I’d say America no longer has a culture, and good art is properly part of culture. I think this really shows in overseas adaptations. When the Japanese adapt an idea from the West, it is a Japanese take on an idea. When America adapts an idea from Japan, despite all the angry SJWs, it is a globalist adaptation, not an American one.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @songbird


    Japanese take on an idea
     
    Japan can be a special case.

    However, for example, Italy has distinctive culture as any country in the world. And Italy also cannot produce good films now.

    a globalist adaptation, not an American one.

     

    But then you can wonder about why there is such a terrible deterioration in the quality of globalist adaptation.

    If you remember the maybe other most beautiful film about American history - "Once upon a time in the West".

    This film was made by Italians, and filmed in Spain, with American and Italian actors, while based on core American mythology and history. The globalized film could be better than mononational film, in that time.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgrUtruA2zk

    Replies: @songbird

  642. @Thulean Friend
    This will be Czechia's tallest building.

    https://img.ihned.cz/attachment.php/700/73997700/qWeN5AsmcEG3QHobkpPzx7SRVMFBydKj/16ec00927b11368aa784518d95dc1a62_resize_1385_1848_.jpg

    Yes.

    Replies: @Korenchkin, @simple_pseudonymic_handle

    It looks like the Titanic half submerged and half sticking up in the air. Is that the intent?

  643. @AP
    @Mr. Hack


    Your point is clear. However, there must be individuals within the Balkan peoples that score very high on IQ tests etc that indicates that genetics does not wholly explain the differences in IQ among the nationalities.
     
    IQ averages across populations don't explain geniuses (who are extreme outlier anyways) and can't explain stuff like the German miracle of the 19th century or the Greek miracle in ancient times. The Serb Tesla may have been more brilliant than any individual Slav, after all. I've known very smart blacks, but their population average is not very good.

    But IQ averages tell us something about overall societal trends and what one can expect from people, collectively.

    In Ukraine’s instance, it doesn’t seem possible that the minute influx of Serbians into the southern Ukrainian steppe could have had such a negative influence on the overall population.
     
    Ukraine's Balkanoid admixture is ancient and doesn't have anything to do with the minute Serb settlement. It has to do with ancient tribes and ratios of mixing and migration before recorded history. I wonder of Trypillians were Balkanoids who were absorbed by Slavs moving southward. Or over the centuries small numbers of Romanians or proto-Romanians mixed with neighboring Slavs in Ukraine (for similar reasons, Romanians are more Slavic by descent than are their Slavic-speaking Balkan neighbors even though Romanians don't speak a Slavic language).

    Replies: @Simpleguest, @Korenchkin, @Mr. Hack, @Philip Owen

    The usual explanation for 19th C, indeed 20th C too, German acheivment is education and training. Training is important; the lower and middle ranks are nurtured and valued not just the top.

    Notoriously, 19th C Serbs elected to tax school books instead of vodka.

  644. @songbird
    @Dmitry


    I wonder why America cannot make great films like that now. It’s only 30 years later
     
    The barrier to financial success in film has gotten much lower, so it is less necessary for films to be a critical success.

    Partly, this is due to a bigger global audience, partly due to changed distribution channels, partly it is due to changed demographics in the US. I believe the majority of movie goers in the US are no longer white.

    There is also a pretty sharp political change that has come from the internet, which has encouraged virtue-signaling.

    But, if I had to reduce it all to one statement, I'd say America no longer has a culture, and good art is properly part of culture. I think this really shows in overseas adaptations. When the Japanese adapt an idea from the West, it is a Japanese take on an idea. When America adapts an idea from Japan, despite all the angry SJWs, it is a globalist adaptation, not an American one.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    Japanese take on an idea

    Japan can be a special case.

    However, for example, Italy has distinctive culture as any country in the world. And Italy also cannot produce good films now.

    a globalist adaptation, not an American one.

    But then you can wonder about why there is such a terrible deterioration in the quality of globalist adaptation.

    If you remember the maybe other most beautiful film about American history – “Once upon a time in the West”.

    This film was made by Italians, and filmed in Spain, with American and Italian actors, while based on core American mythology and history. The globalized film could be better than mononational film, in that time.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @Dmitry


    If you remember the maybe other most beautiful film about American history – “Once upon a time in the West”.

     

    I have not seen this film, though I am trying to increase my knowledge of Westerns, partly, since they were so quintessentially American.

    What I consider globalism, I would say requires some multiracial consciousness at its core, so I would not count the arrangement of a film being shot in Europe and/or using a European director to be true globalism.

    It is difficult to put a date on anything, but I can see some movies from the early 1990s and still feel, whether they are bad or good, they are still very American. I think globalism in film began sometime after that. Definitely, by the early 2000s. Though, of course, there were earlier elements.

    Replies: @Dmitry

  645. @Mr. Hack
    @AnonFromTN


    prevailing Russophobia in many former “brotherly” republics – is actually a sign of their deep inferiority complexes, mixed with bitter envy in more than half of the cases. I say, serves them right, let them stew in their primeval tribal stupidity.
     
    Not really. It's just a manifestation of those who've finaly been able to shed the unwanted intrusions of an imperial master, one that meddled its way unwantingly into affairs of its smaller neighborly peoples. It's telling that of all of the former republics, all have defected to the West and not a one has indicated any desire to reattach itself to Mother Russia. Of those that were once a core consituent republic, only Byelorus shows any signs at all of backstepping to its former colonial past. But then again, Byelorus was absolutely the most Russified of all of the Republics, filled with denationalized citizens. A great place for janissar 5th column renegades from all parts of the former Soviet Union?

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

    It’s telling that of all of the former republics, all have defected to the West and not a one has indicated any desire to reattach itself to Mother Russia.

    A lie, as usual, or a “svidomy” dream, which is the same thing. Belarus, Kazakhstan, Kirgizstan, and Armenia are in a permanent customs union with Russia.

    “Svidomy” butt-hurt about military exercises Center-2019 is even funnier. 128 thousand personnel from eight countries participated: Russia, China, India, Pakistan, Kazakhstan, Kirgizstan, Uzbekistan, and Tajikistan. Collectively they provided 20 thousand military vehicles, 600 aircraft, and 15 ships. The drills involved the territory of four countries: Russia, Kazakhstan, Kirgizstan, and Tajikistan. So, five former Soviet republics participated and the territory of four of them was involved. Considering that before that there were drills of combined military of Russia and Belarus, five out of 14 former Soviet republics participated in military drills with Russia just in the last few months.

    These drills dwarf the drills Ukraine recently conducted with its sahibs, the US (Rapid Trident-2019). If I were “svidomy”, I’d promptly hang myself. Thank goodness, I am normal.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @AnonFromTN

    It's clear from everything that you write that you were a lousy citizen of Ukraine, a typical Donbas vatnyk, who still can't shake his rude upbringing. You're a lousy citizen of the US too and make a great case against immigration.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

  646. @AnonFromTN
    @Mr. Hack


    It’s telling that of all of the former republics, all have defected to the West and not a one has indicated any desire to reattach itself to Mother Russia.
     
    A lie, as usual, or a “svidomy” dream, which is the same thing. Belarus, Kazakhstan, Kirgizstan, and Armenia are in a permanent customs union with Russia.

    “Svidomy” butt-hurt about military exercises Center-2019 is even funnier. 128 thousand personnel from eight countries participated: Russia, China, India, Pakistan, Kazakhstan, Kirgizstan, Uzbekistan, and Tajikistan. Collectively they provided 20 thousand military vehicles, 600 aircraft, and 15 ships. The drills involved the territory of four countries: Russia, Kazakhstan, Kirgizstan, and Tajikistan. So, five former Soviet republics participated and the territory of four of them was involved. Considering that before that there were drills of combined military of Russia and Belarus, five out of 14 former Soviet republics participated in military drills with Russia just in the last few months.

    These drills dwarf the drills Ukraine recently conducted with its sahibs, the US (Rapid Trident-2019). If I were “svidomy”, I’d promptly hang myself. Thank goodness, I am normal.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    It’s clear from everything that you write that you were a lousy citizen of Ukraine, a typical Donbas vatnyk, who still can’t shake his rude upbringing. You’re a lousy citizen of the US too and make a great case against immigration.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    @Mr. Hack

    This is response is not for you, it is for honest readers.

    Additional info on former Soviet republics that I did not mention above. Azerbaijan keeps buying Russian weapons, paying billions of $ in hard cash. In fact, in 2008 Azerbaijan flatly refused to condemn Russian military response to Georgian aggression against South Ossetia. American uber-scum Dick Cheney, who was vice-president at the time on a visit to Baku, got so mad that he refused to show up at the official dinner with Azeri president. I guess it was good for his health: he was fat enough as it is.

    Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan studiously observe neutrality, whereas Tajikistan invited Russian troops to guard its border with Afghanistan. In fact, only five former Soviet republics became American boot-lickers: three Baltic statelets, Georgia, and Ukraine. Out of these, only Ukraine has the population worth mentioning: the population of the three Baltic midgets plus Georgia is much smaller than the population of Moscow. When I say that Ukraine has the population, it’s an educated guess: under various pretexts Ukraine did not conduct a census for 18 years and does not plan to have one in the foreseeable future. Estimates of its population vary wildly. One thing one can be sure of so far: it’s population w/o Crimea and Donbass (neither of which will ever return, even if Ukraine changes its government to something sane) is greater that the combined population of the other four.

    To lighten the mood, a recent Ukrainian joke about elections:
    A guy comes to the polling station, casts his vote, then asks:
    - Did my wife vote?
    - Yes, here is her signature.
    - Dash it, I am late again. See, she died 15 years ago, but votes every time. I keep hoping to meet her here.

    Replies: @AP

  647. @Korenchkin
    @AP


    Romanians are more Slavic by descent than are their Slavic-speaking Balkan neighbors even though Romanians don’t speak a Slavic language
     
    What's the proof for that, their R1a content?
    Does that mean R1a Pashtuns and Tajiks are Slavic too?

    Replies: @AP

    R1A in Europe is associated with Slavs. Since there is no record of Pashtun or Tajik migration into Romania it can be inferred that R1A among Romanians comes from Slavic neighbors rather than from anyone else.

    Moreover Central Asian R1A can be differentiated from Slavic R1A (there is also a Scandinavian R1A – Z284 subclade). Romanians have mostly the Slavic R1A.

  648. @Mr. Hack
    @Korenchkin

    Perhaps one flaw in AP's analogy between the meztisos 'specious' claim to Spanish heritage and South Slav adherence to a Slavic one, notwithstanding the inclusion of non-Slavic older Balkan elements, is that the later includes the melding of two sub-groups of the same race, whereas in the former it's comprised actually of two groups from different races?

    Replies: @AP

    The former just makes things more obvious and clears things up.

  649. @utu
    @AP

    "...you aren’t real Slavs... " - Where did you get this meme? To what purpose? Why do you keep pounding it?

    Sad but unavoidable deterioration of quality of AK commentariat. Stupidity is infectious. The root of AK weltanschauung is evil and will always lead to trolling.

    Replies: @AP

    “…you aren’t real Slavs… “ – Where did you get this meme? To what purpose? Why do you keep pounding it?

    I find migration patterns and these self-identifications to be interesting. When I was in New Mexico I saw a population claiming to be Spaniards who spoke a well-preserved 16th century Spanish dialect in their villages. They are, genetics shows, about 20% Indian.

    Sad but unavoidable deterioration of quality of AK commentariat. Stupidity is infectious.

    I still enjoy your comments, including your critical ones.

  650. @Mr. Hack
    @AnonFromTN

    It's clear from everything that you write that you were a lousy citizen of Ukraine, a typical Donbas vatnyk, who still can't shake his rude upbringing. You're a lousy citizen of the US too and make a great case against immigration.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

    This is response is not for you, it is for honest readers.

    Additional info on former Soviet republics that I did not mention above. Azerbaijan keeps buying Russian weapons, paying billions of $ in hard cash. In fact, in 2008 Azerbaijan flatly refused to condemn Russian military response to Georgian aggression against South Ossetia. American uber-scum Dick Cheney, who was vice-president at the time on a visit to Baku, got so mad that he refused to show up at the official dinner with Azeri president. I guess it was good for his health: he was fat enough as it is.

    Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan studiously observe neutrality, whereas Tajikistan invited Russian troops to guard its border with Afghanistan. In fact, only five former Soviet republics became American boot-lickers: three Baltic statelets, Georgia, and Ukraine. Out of these, only Ukraine has the population worth mentioning: the population of the three Baltic midgets plus Georgia is much smaller than the population of Moscow. When I say that Ukraine has the population, it’s an educated guess: under various pretexts Ukraine did not conduct a census for 18 years and does not plan to have one in the foreseeable future. Estimates of its population vary wildly. One thing one can be sure of so far: it’s population w/o Crimea and Donbass (neither of which will ever return, even if Ukraine changes its government to something sane) is greater that the combined population of the other four.

    To lighten the mood, a recent Ukrainian joke about elections:
    A guy comes to the polling station, casts his vote, then asks:
    – Did my wife vote?
    – Yes, here is her signature.
    – Dash it, I am late again. See, she died 15 years ago, but votes every time. I keep hoping to meet her here.

    • LOL: Mikhail
    • Replies: @AP
    @AnonFromTN

    You are correct, but the Warsaw Pact countries all fled Westward. So in Europe, Ukraine, Poland, Baltics, Czechia, Slovakia, Hungary, Romania, Georgia (in Europe?) and Bulgaria all abandoned Moscow.


    In fact, in 2008 Azerbaijan flatly refused
     
    This country is stuck between Russia and Iran. It's "calm" attitude towards Russia is hardly voluntary.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

  651. @Korenchkin
    @Simpleguest


    own national myths are the biggest enemy of a nation
     
    Depends which kind I guess
    I hate overly masturbatory history, I prefer well sourced history arranged to form the prefered narrative (history doesn't have a default narrative, it always needs to be fictional but that doesn't mean it needs to be false)

    One should toe a fine line of being honest but also marketing yourself
    Karlins suggestion of creating a Russian museum and framing the narrative the same way Jews do it is the perfect example
    The Jews keep getting expelled but it's because of those evil anti-semites, Russians would have a much easier time with it since they are way less despicable then kikes and have arguably suffered more through their history (what with originating in the most inhospitable region on the planet)

    Most Slavs ought to frame their histories this way: "Times are often hard, but we gain wisdom from those hard times and we come back stronger"
    Then give a list of previous successes to prove it's not all empty hopes and a complementary funny hat

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

    Most Slavs ought to frame their histories this way: “Times are often hard, but we gain wisdom from those hard times and we come back stronger”

    Reminds me of an American saying “experience is what you get when you don’t get what you want”.

  652. @AnonFromTN
    @Mr. Hack

    This is response is not for you, it is for honest readers.

    Additional info on former Soviet republics that I did not mention above. Azerbaijan keeps buying Russian weapons, paying billions of $ in hard cash. In fact, in 2008 Azerbaijan flatly refused to condemn Russian military response to Georgian aggression against South Ossetia. American uber-scum Dick Cheney, who was vice-president at the time on a visit to Baku, got so mad that he refused to show up at the official dinner with Azeri president. I guess it was good for his health: he was fat enough as it is.

    Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan studiously observe neutrality, whereas Tajikistan invited Russian troops to guard its border with Afghanistan. In fact, only five former Soviet republics became American boot-lickers: three Baltic statelets, Georgia, and Ukraine. Out of these, only Ukraine has the population worth mentioning: the population of the three Baltic midgets plus Georgia is much smaller than the population of Moscow. When I say that Ukraine has the population, it’s an educated guess: under various pretexts Ukraine did not conduct a census for 18 years and does not plan to have one in the foreseeable future. Estimates of its population vary wildly. One thing one can be sure of so far: it’s population w/o Crimea and Donbass (neither of which will ever return, even if Ukraine changes its government to something sane) is greater that the combined population of the other four.

    To lighten the mood, a recent Ukrainian joke about elections:
    A guy comes to the polling station, casts his vote, then asks:
    - Did my wife vote?
    - Yes, here is her signature.
    - Dash it, I am late again. See, she died 15 years ago, but votes every time. I keep hoping to meet her here.

    Replies: @AP

    You are correct, but the Warsaw Pact countries all fled Westward. So in Europe, Ukraine, Poland, Baltics, Czechia, Slovakia, Hungary, Romania, Georgia (in Europe?) and Bulgaria all abandoned Moscow.

    In fact, in 2008 Azerbaijan flatly refused

    This country is stuck between Russia and Iran. It’s “calm” attitude towards Russia is hardly voluntary.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    @AP

    Eastern Europe was forced into the USSR orbit by an agreement between the USSR, the US, and the UK, neither of which cared about the opinions of the aborigines. Besides, you are talking about governments, not necessarily the people. I know for a fact that the population of Bulgaria, Montenegro, Slovakia, and even Poland sees things differently than their governments. Even the governments of quite a few countries are divided on the issue, although it’s always cheaper to buy the elites than the populace.


    This country is stuck between Russia and Iran. It’s “calm” attitude towards Russia is hardly voluntary.
     
    That would be a good reason to seek outside alliances. Azeri authorities just practice Eastern wisdom of not creating enemies unnecessarily. Besides, refusing the Empire and buying huge amounts of weapons can hardly be called “calm attitude”.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  653. @AP
    @AnonFromTN

    You are correct, but the Warsaw Pact countries all fled Westward. So in Europe, Ukraine, Poland, Baltics, Czechia, Slovakia, Hungary, Romania, Georgia (in Europe?) and Bulgaria all abandoned Moscow.


    In fact, in 2008 Azerbaijan flatly refused
     
    This country is stuck between Russia and Iran. It's "calm" attitude towards Russia is hardly voluntary.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

    Eastern Europe was forced into the USSR orbit by an agreement between the USSR, the US, and the UK, neither of which cared about the opinions of the aborigines. Besides, you are talking about governments, not necessarily the people. I know for a fact that the population of Bulgaria, Montenegro, Slovakia, and even Poland sees things differently than their governments. Even the governments of quite a few countries are divided on the issue, although it’s always cheaper to buy the elites than the populace.

    This country is stuck between Russia and Iran. It’s “calm” attitude towards Russia is hardly voluntary.

    That would be a good reason to seek outside alliances. Azeri authorities just practice Eastern wisdom of not creating enemies unnecessarily. Besides, refusing the Empire and buying huge amounts of weapons can hardly be called “calm attitude”.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @AnonFromTN


    I know for a fact
     
    blah, blah, blah...

    Real persuasive argumentation - give me a break!


    https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSRibe_HKIBeqSCHMHTjg06we_gSfdki7EXjzwBzzbQ85yiSqS1

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

  654. @AnonFromTN
    @AP

    Eastern Europe was forced into the USSR orbit by an agreement between the USSR, the US, and the UK, neither of which cared about the opinions of the aborigines. Besides, you are talking about governments, not necessarily the people. I know for a fact that the population of Bulgaria, Montenegro, Slovakia, and even Poland sees things differently than their governments. Even the governments of quite a few countries are divided on the issue, although it’s always cheaper to buy the elites than the populace.


    This country is stuck between Russia and Iran. It’s “calm” attitude towards Russia is hardly voluntary.
     
    That would be a good reason to seek outside alliances. Azeri authorities just practice Eastern wisdom of not creating enemies unnecessarily. Besides, refusing the Empire and buying huge amounts of weapons can hardly be called “calm attitude”.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    I know for a fact

    blah, blah, blah…

    Real persuasive argumentation – give me a break!

    https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSRibe_HKIBeqSCHMHTjg06we_gSfdki7EXjzwBzzbQ85yiSqS1

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    @Mr. Hack

    Sorry, both common sense and fastidiousness do not allow me open links suggested by trolls and crazies.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  655. @Mr. Hack
    @AnonFromTN


    I know for a fact
     
    blah, blah, blah...

    Real persuasive argumentation - give me a break!


    https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSRibe_HKIBeqSCHMHTjg06we_gSfdki7EXjzwBzzbQ85yiSqS1

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

    Sorry, both common sense and fastidiousness do not allow me open links suggested by trolls and crazies.

    • LOL: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @AnonFromTN

    Actually, your inability to provide any detiail for such a questionable statement is sloppy on your part, not the sign of somebody who pays much attention to providing detail.

  656. Sleazy CNN Segment

    Re: https://twitter.com/TGiftiv/status/1175351477788958720

    Originally aired in the early morning hours (NY time) on Saturday, September 21, UCL academic Thomas Gift, has ample reason to not show the whole segment, which serves as a classic example of lousy journalism. Gift and CNN host Natalie Allen carried on like crude propagandists. Towards the end of the segment, Gift tacked on the scapegoating of Russia – as if that country is somehow involved in the suspect manner concerning Joe Biden and his son Hunter.

    In the CNN segment’s entirety, Gift belittles the credible claim concerning Joe Biden threatening Ukraine with aid money, if a certain Ukrainian prosecutor wasn’t fired for seeking to investigate the Ukrainian gas company Burisma, which employed Biden’s son. What this particular CNN segment (as well as some others on that station and MSNBC) have omitted:

    Here’s Joe Biden clearly bragging about his threatening Ukraine if said Ukrainian prosecutor wasn’t dismissed:

    After getting kicked out of the navy for using cocaine, Hunter Biden, received a position with Burisma, which has been linked to corruption. Hunter Biden’s reported salary at that company is reported at well over $100K a month. This is an especially high salary for someone like him, lacking prior work experience related to the position.

    After this matter was reported in US mass media, Hunter Biden’s affiliation with Burisma ended. Relative to the hoopla over Russiagate, the negative attention given to Donald Trump and his children, Joe and Hunter Biden should be considered fair game.

    Some pro-Democratic Party leaning talking heads are aghast that an American president (Trump) might’ve sought negative information on a potential US presidential candidate (Biden) from a foreign head of state (Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky). If that negative information is true, then what’s the big deal if the ideal is to be as well versed as possible on someone like Joe Biden?

    As for using a foreign government to defame a presidential campaign, note the credible evidence linking a DNC effort to try to find negativity on the 2016 Trump campaign, involving the highly paid (over $400K) DNC contractor Alexandra Chalupa (a Ukrainian-American political activist) and the Ukrainian embassy in DC. Related:

    https://medium.com/@stranahan/the-difference-between-wikileaks-and-cnn-is-clear-on-ukraine-dnc-election-collusion-bc5208776d38

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Mikhail


    If that negative information is true, then what’s the big deal if the ideal is to be as well versed as possible on someone like Joe Biden?
     
    You conveniently leave out the important part here Mickey, where supposedly Trump was withholding military equipment to Ukraine if Zelensky's team would not pursue investigating Biden's role in getting his son hired to such a well paying job. The US did, however, eventually provide Ukraine with the military equipment.

    Replies: @Mikhail

    , @AnonFromTN
    @Mikhail

    Full disclosure of the involvement of Biden and his worthless son in corruption in Ukraine would be in the best interests of the American public. That’s exactly why Deep State, via its puppets DNC, NYT, CNN, WaPo, and others of their ilk, will do its level best to prevent this disclosure.

    Replies: @Mikhail

  657. @AP
    @Mr. Hack


    Actually, I think AP (as ususal) is right on with the facts he presents, but I don’t quite know where he’s going with all of this?
     
    Just to point out the ridiculousness of Balkanoids being also some sort of pan-Slavists, when they are hardly Slavic by descent and are basically just Slavic by language. It would be like if some Guatemalan Mestizos proclaimed themselves to be uber-Spaniard patriots or African-Americans hardcore "Germanics."

    It was partly on the basis of this fake mythology that the tragedies of the early 20th century happened. I also think that this fake idea drives soem Serbs to volunteer to come to Donbas and shoot at Ukrainians.

    He even admits, that an important sub-compnent of the Ukrainian ethnmos is “Balkanoid”
     
    This may explain why Ukrainans, on average, are not quite as smart as their Polish and Russian neighbors. I suspect they are comparable to southern Russians (who are not quite as smart as the Russian average), or Slovaks. Ukrainians are probably around 10% Balkanoid. Maybe that is why.

    Does this mean that the Serbian nation today is somehow inferior to Poland, Ukraine, Byelorus or even Russia?
     
    Why "even" Russia? Russia is the most successful of the Slavic countries. If it weren't destroyed by Bolshevism it might very likely have become a global hyperpower.

    Balkan peoples, on average, are not as smart as Slavs. That's a fact.

    PISA scores again (Slavic nations and Balkan nations in bold):

    https://isteve.blogspot.com/2013/12/overall-pisa-rankings-include-america.html

    Finland 529
    Poland 521
    Switzerland 518
    White Americans 518
    Germany 515

    Czech Republic 500
    Slovenia 499
    Hungary 487
    Lithuania 484
    Croatia 482
    Russia 481*
    Slovakia 472

    Hispanic Americans 465

    Serbia 447
    Bulgaria 440
    Romania 440


    African Americans 434

    Montenegro 414
    Albania 395

    Is the civilization that they’ve created for themselves somehow suffered due to a loss of “superace” genes?
     
    Well, they aren't very Slavic by descent. But they are also in a tough neighborhood with a bad history.

    *Russia is 20% non-Slavic. The Tatars, Chechens, etc. bring the Russian average way down.

    Replies: @melanf

    PISA scores again (Slavic nations and Balkan nations in bold):

    It is at the moment its incorrect information (what have you been told before), That PISA 2015
    https://www.oecd.org/pisa/pisa-2015-results-in-focus.pdf

    Finland 523
    Slovenia 509
    Germany 508
    Switzerland 506
    Poland 504
    Russia 492
    Czech Republic 491
    Hungary 475
    Lithuania 475
    Croatia 475
    Slovakia 463
    Serbia Absent in List
    Bulgaria 440
    Romania 434
    Montenegro 419
    Albania 415

    • Replies: @AP
    @melanf

    Sailer's link to the 2012 results included scores by American whites, Latinos and blacks for comparison, this is why I used it. It is also easier and quicker to see the data.

    The numbers here don't contradict anything I've written. Switzerland well above Slovakia, Balkans at the bottom.

    Replies: @melanf

    , @Thulean Friend
    @melanf

    I would be cautious at taking the 2015 results at face value. There were very signicant methodological changes, which crashed the scores of many high-achieving countries (such as Finland, while still scoring decently, did far worse than previously for no discernible reason). Another would be China. The shift to computers also affected this.

    Sweden, which certainly did not have better demographics in 2015 than it had in 2012 suddenly saw a jump. Relatively low performers like Brazil also got a big boost.

    There was an interesting article on it a few years ago:

    https://theconversation.com/how-shift-to-computer-based-tests-could-shake-up-pisa-education-rankings-54869

    The TL;DR is that the 2015 PISA is a fairly substantial discontinuity in methodological practice and should be treated with caution. I'd take the three-PISA average from 2006, 2009 and 2012 as a better underlying measurement, preferably also seperating out the immigrant population, to get a better sense of the native capabilities. There are some outliers to this rule, such as Russia, which was still recovering from the 1990s malaise. But that is a one-off. Most OECD countries did not have that kind of shock, including virutally all ex-communist OECD members.

  658. @melanf
    @AP


    PISA scores again (Slavic nations and Balkan nations in bold):
     
    It is at the moment its incorrect information (what have you been told before), That PISA 2015
    https://www.oecd.org/pisa/pisa-2015-results-in-focus.pdf

    Finland 523
    Slovenia 509
    Germany 508
    Switzerland 506
    Poland 504
    Russia 492
    Czech Republic 491
    Hungary 475
    Lithuania 475
    Croatia 475
    Slovakia 463
    Serbia Absent in List
    Bulgaria 440
    Romania 434
    Montenegro 419
    Albania 415

    Replies: @AP, @Thulean Friend

    Sailer’s link to the 2012 results included scores by American whites, Latinos and blacks for comparison, this is why I used it. It is also easier and quicker to see the data.

    The numbers here don’t contradict anything I’ve written. Switzerland well above Slovakia, Balkans at the bottom.

    • Replies: @melanf
    @AP


    Sailer’s link to the 2012 results included scores by American whites, Latinos and blacks for comparison
     
    Well then the list will look like this:

    Finland 523
    White Americans 518 (Sailer 2012)
    Slovenia 509
    Germany 508
    Switzerland 506
    Poland 504
    Russia 492
    Czech Republic 491
    Hungary 475
    Lithuania 475
    Croatia 475
    Hispanic Americans 465 (Sailer 2012)
    Slovakia 463
    Serbia Absent in List
    Bulgaria 440
    African Americans 434 (Sailer 2012)
    Romania 434
    Montenegro 419
    Albania 415

    But in my opinion it's a absolutely pointless list (for example who may be able to believe that Montenegrins are much worst in intellect than African Americans?)

    Replies: @AP

  659. @AP
    @melanf

    Sailer's link to the 2012 results included scores by American whites, Latinos and blacks for comparison, this is why I used it. It is also easier and quicker to see the data.

    The numbers here don't contradict anything I've written. Switzerland well above Slovakia, Balkans at the bottom.

    Replies: @melanf

    Sailer’s link to the 2012 results included scores by American whites, Latinos and blacks for comparison

    Well then the list will look like this:

    Finland 523
    White Americans 518 (Sailer 2012)
    Slovenia 509
    Germany 508
    Switzerland 506
    Poland 504
    Russia 492
    Czech Republic 491
    Hungary 475
    Lithuania 475
    Croatia 475
    Hispanic Americans 465 (Sailer 2012)
    Slovakia 463
    Serbia Absent in List
    Bulgaria 440
    African Americans 434 (Sailer 2012)
    Romania 434
    Montenegro 419
    Albania 415

    But in my opinion it’s a absolutely pointless list (for example who may be able to believe that Montenegrins are much worst in intellect than African Americans?)

    • Replies: @AP
    @melanf

    Mixing results from different years produces invalid comparisons, because presumably the scores are normed differently. Although the results don't change much.


    for example who may be able to believe that Montenegrins are much worst in intellect than African Americans?
     
    How many African Americans have you known? Not on TV, but worked with and socialized with daily?

    I haven't known Montenegrins, but I've had a decent number of Balkan refugee patients, people from villages with 4th grade educations. The results from this list are not terribly surprising.

    Replies: @melanf

  660. @Kent Nationalist
    @Thulean Friend

    He looks like he uses reddit.

    Are there any countries which have succeeded in limiting access to pornography?

    An automatic block unless you applied for an exemption was supposed to have been implemented here, but is being perpetually delayed.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Thulean Friend

    Completely blocking access to porn is unlikely to work. And even if it was possible, I would still be against it on grounds of freedom of choice.

    Yang wasn’t hinting at blocking it. He wanted to introduce greater ease for parents to limit access for kids, rather than a blanket ban. We can’t pretend that the creeping sexualisation of our culture is happening organically or by coincidence. It has been very deliberate. Yang’s a technocrat, so he likely has technological solutions in mind here, rather than a fuller Weltanschauung but his conservative instinct, no matter how embryonic, is undeniable here.

    And no wonder. When this is one of the most popular artists in America and has over 50 million followers on instagram, many of them younger women.

    https://www.instagram.com/p/B1WlObiA4bp/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

    Anyone who tells you popstars aren’t rolemodels for young kids either doens’t have teenagers and kids, is either stupid or silently approves of the decay.
    Once again we face the biggest obstacle: defeatism and fatalism. The notion that just because things have deterioated, they can’t possibly ever improve. Nothing is further from the truth.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Thulean Friend


    things have deteriorated,
     
    Across the world, Generation Z have less sex and drugs, compared to Millennials (whether in Russia or America).

    And I think I read about in America, Millennial have less sex and drugs compared to Generation X.

    So, current trend is that generations are becoming more introverted and reclusive (perhaps more Japanese).


    most popular artists in America
     
    Visually, we have higher tolerance to nudity in media, probably because of clickbait in the internet.

    At the same time, pop music is becoming less about sex, and has moved to another stage already.

    Compare for examples songs by Madonna, in the 1980s -these all about sex.

    Lyrics of Katy Perry are now singing, not about sex - but about machines. Probably in 30 years in the future, people will be nostalgic and regretful for the time when pop songs were sex and drugs - instead of being narcissistic songs only about consumer technology and human-computer interaction.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Um7pMggPnug

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Thulean Friend

  661. @melanf
    @AP


    PISA scores again (Slavic nations and Balkan nations in bold):
     
    It is at the moment its incorrect information (what have you been told before), That PISA 2015
    https://www.oecd.org/pisa/pisa-2015-results-in-focus.pdf

    Finland 523
    Slovenia 509
    Germany 508
    Switzerland 506
    Poland 504
    Russia 492
    Czech Republic 491
    Hungary 475
    Lithuania 475
    Croatia 475
    Slovakia 463
    Serbia Absent in List
    Bulgaria 440
    Romania 434
    Montenegro 419
    Albania 415

    Replies: @AP, @Thulean Friend

    I would be cautious at taking the 2015 results at face value. There were very signicant methodological changes, which crashed the scores of many high-achieving countries (such as Finland, while still scoring decently, did far worse than previously for no discernible reason). Another would be China. The shift to computers also affected this.

    Sweden, which certainly did not have better demographics in 2015 than it had in 2012 suddenly saw a jump. Relatively low performers like Brazil also got a big boost.

    There was an interesting article on it a few years ago:

    https://theconversation.com/how-shift-to-computer-based-tests-could-shake-up-pisa-education-rankings-54869

    The TL;DR is that the 2015 PISA is a fairly substantial discontinuity in methodological practice and should be treated with caution. I’d take the three-PISA average from 2006, 2009 and 2012 as a better underlying measurement, preferably also seperating out the immigrant population, to get a better sense of the native capabilities. There are some outliers to this rule, such as Russia, which was still recovering from the 1990s malaise. But that is a one-off. Most OECD countries did not have that kind of shock, including virutally all ex-communist OECD members.

  662. @AnonFromTN
    @Mr. Hack

    Sorry, both common sense and fastidiousness do not allow me open links suggested by trolls and crazies.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    Actually, your inability to provide any detiail for such a questionable statement is sloppy on your part, not the sign of somebody who pays much attention to providing detail.

  663. @Mikhail
    Sleazy CNN Segment

    Re: https://twitter.com/TGiftiv/status/1175351477788958720

    Originally aired in the early morning hours (NY time) on Saturday, September 21, UCL academic Thomas Gift, has ample reason to not show the whole segment, which serves as a classic example of lousy journalism. Gift and CNN host Natalie Allen carried on like crude propagandists. Towards the end of the segment, Gift tacked on the scapegoating of Russia - as if that country is somehow involved in the suspect manner concerning Joe Biden and his son Hunter.

    In the CNN segment's entirety, Gift belittles the credible claim concerning Joe Biden threatening Ukraine with aid money, if a certain Ukrainian prosecutor wasn't fired for seeking to investigate the Ukrainian gas company Burisma, which employed Biden's son. What this particular CNN segment (as well as some others on that station and MSNBC) have omitted:

    Here's Joe Biden clearly bragging about his threatening Ukraine if said Ukrainian prosecutor wasn't dismissed:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXA--dj2-CY

    After getting kicked out of the navy for using cocaine, Hunter Biden, received a position with Burisma, which has been linked to corruption. Hunter Biden's reported salary at that company is reported at well over $100K a month. This is an especially high salary for someone like him, lacking prior work experience related to the position.

    After this matter was reported in US mass media, Hunter Biden's affiliation with Burisma ended. Relative to the hoopla over Russiagate, the negative attention given to Donald Trump and his children, Joe and Hunter Biden should be considered fair game.

    Some pro-Democratic Party leaning talking heads are aghast that an American president (Trump) might've sought negative information on a potential US presidential candidate (Biden) from a foreign head of state (Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky). If that negative information is true, then what's the big deal if the ideal is to be as well versed as possible on someone like Joe Biden?

    As for using a foreign government to defame a presidential campaign, note the credible evidence linking a DNC effort to try to find negativity on the 2016 Trump campaign, involving the highly paid (over $400K) DNC contractor Alexandra Chalupa (a Ukrainian-American political activist) and the Ukrainian embassy in DC. Related:

    https://medium.com/@stranahan/the-difference-between-wikileaks-and-cnn-is-clear-on-ukraine-dnc-election-collusion-bc5208776d38

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @AnonFromTN

    If that negative information is true, then what’s the big deal if the ideal is to be as well versed as possible on someone like Joe Biden?

    You conveniently leave out the important part here Mickey, where supposedly Trump was withholding military equipment to Ukraine if Zelensky’s team would not pursue investigating Biden’s role in getting his son hired to such a well paying job. The US did, however, eventually provide Ukraine with the military equipment.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
    @Mr. Hack

    You conveniently ignore that claim (withholding US military aid to Ukraine over getting info on the Bidens) has never been substantiated. The Ukrainian FM said there was nothing pressurizing or unpleasant about the discussion at issue.

    That's much different than what Biden did when he was Obama's point man on Ukraine. In that situation, there was blatant pressure.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  664. @Thulean Friend
    @Kent Nationalist

    Completely blocking access to porn is unlikely to work. And even if it was possible, I would still be against it on grounds of freedom of choice.

    Yang wasn't hinting at blocking it. He wanted to introduce greater ease for parents to limit access for kids, rather than a blanket ban. We can't pretend that the creeping sexualisation of our culture is happening organically or by coincidence. It has been very deliberate. Yang's a technocrat, so he likely has technological solutions in mind here, rather than a fuller Weltanschauung but his conservative instinct, no matter how embryonic, is undeniable here.

    And no wonder. When this is one of the most popular artists in America and has over 50 million followers on instagram, many of them younger women.

    https://www.instagram.com/p/B1WlObiA4bp/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

    Anyone who tells you popstars aren't rolemodels for young kids either doens't have teenagers and kids, is either stupid or silently approves of the decay.
    Once again we face the biggest obstacle: defeatism and fatalism. The notion that just because things have deterioated, they can't possibly ever improve. Nothing is further from the truth.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    things have deteriorated,

    Across the world, Generation Z have less sex and drugs, compared to Millennials (whether in Russia or America).

    And I think I read about in America, Millennial have less sex and drugs compared to Generation X.

    So, current trend is that generations are becoming more introverted and reclusive (perhaps more Japanese).

    most popular artists in America

    Visually, we have higher tolerance to nudity in media, probably because of clickbait in the internet.

    At the same time, pop music is becoming less about sex, and has moved to another stage already.

    Compare for examples songs by Madonna, in the 1980s -these all about sex.

    Lyrics of Katy Perry are now singing, not about sex – but about machines. Probably in 30 years in the future, people will be nostalgic and regretful for the time when pop songs were sex and drugs – instead of being narcissistic songs only about consumer technology and human-computer interaction.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Dmitry

    And songs about sex and drugs are somehow less narcissistic than ones about consumer technology and human-computer interaction? You don't even need to roll your own anymore nor inhale much expending energy thanks to electronic vaping gadgets. And sex? Thanks to technology you don't even need a human partner anymore, computers provide a virtual reality thrill ride image hooked up to a plastic doll..."Ride-em Cowboy" :-(

    , @Thulean Friend
    @Dmitry


    Across the world, Generation Z have less sex and drugs, compared to Millennials (whether in Russia or America).
     
    I have read the same thing about Sweden but I think there are significant demographic composition effects at play here. I don't have the study at my fingertips, I read it some years ago, but the data was from 2014. It showed that while the amount of average sex has come down for the whole population, it has increased dramatically for university students. Female students went from something like ~5 partners in the 1990s to 14(!) in 2014. We don't break out ethnicity, so I can't say anything about white working class whites but having grown up close to those people, I certainly did not notice any restraint, quite the opposite trend.

    My guess is what is happening in Sweden is partly related to religion and ethnicity. Our universities are still largely comprised of white secular students with a 15-20% minority of (typically) highly assimilated and liberal minorities who mostly ape these white seculars and their habits. I know of many young women in their early 20s who are virgins with non-European ancestry, vast majority of them muslim but not only. Even if some of may be lying, I doubt they have had more sex than with 1-2 partners at best. The social control in their environments is so great that some of them can't even go to a bar late at night without facing very severe repercussions. Girls talk. If one of them was on tinder, her friends will know and rumors will swirl. Family and community backlash ensues.

    When I compare the sexual norms today with those when I was growing up, I have seen a significant decay in just the last 15-20 years among ethnic Swedes. We were always very liberal, but in our personal lives it wasn't that bad before. A certain amount of hypocrisy was at play. I can't comment on Russia or the US, but in Sweden at least there are demographic composition effects at play here. And I don't mind. I prefer the social mores of non-Swedes in these matters. All the social science research I've seen has strongly shown that the amount of partners you have is correlated with the depth and length of the relationships you can maintain. This is true for both genders. Stronger relationships means a stronger society.

    Beyond this, there's also the question of aesthetics. Do we really want to glorify strippers and whores? There is not only a utalitarian part of me making this argument, even on a more fundamental aesthetic level there are strong arguments to make. Beauty in of itself is worth pursuing and perfecting. The kind of women our society cherishes in our popular media reflects our social priorities, and the kind of woman we want to project onto girls to emulate.

    https://i.imgur.com/NyBpcsp.jpg

    Replies: @Dmitry

  665. @Dmitry
    @Thulean Friend


    things have deteriorated,
     
    Across the world, Generation Z have less sex and drugs, compared to Millennials (whether in Russia or America).

    And I think I read about in America, Millennial have less sex and drugs compared to Generation X.

    So, current trend is that generations are becoming more introverted and reclusive (perhaps more Japanese).


    most popular artists in America
     
    Visually, we have higher tolerance to nudity in media, probably because of clickbait in the internet.

    At the same time, pop music is becoming less about sex, and has moved to another stage already.

    Compare for examples songs by Madonna, in the 1980s -these all about sex.

    Lyrics of Katy Perry are now singing, not about sex - but about machines. Probably in 30 years in the future, people will be nostalgic and regretful for the time when pop songs were sex and drugs - instead of being narcissistic songs only about consumer technology and human-computer interaction.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Um7pMggPnug

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Thulean Friend

    And songs about sex and drugs are somehow less narcissistic than ones about consumer technology and human-computer interaction? You don’t even need to roll your own anymore nor inhale much expending energy thanks to electronic vaping gadgets. And sex? Thanks to technology you don’t even need a human partner anymore, computers provide a virtual reality thrill ride image hooked up to a plastic doll…”Ride-em Cowboy” 🙁

  666. • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    @reiner Tor

    That’s just as fake as earlier Pentagon complaints about superiority of Russian weapons. All this song and dance is about one thing only: gimme more money!

  667. @Mr. Hack
    Your point is clear. However, there must be individuals within the Balkan peoples that score very high on IQ tests etc that indicates that genetics does not wholly explain the differences in IQ among the nationalities. In Ukraine's instance, it doesn't seem possible that the minute influx of Serbians into the southern Ukrainian steppe could have had such a negative influence on the overall population. Where else could these Balkanoids have come from to comprise 10% of the Ukrainain gene structure? Our Romanian friend Seraphim undoubtedly possesses a high IQ, as I'm sure many other Balkanoids do too.

    Replies: @AP, @Thorfinnsson

    If Ukrainians actually are dimmer than Russians, Balkanoid and perhaps Tatar admixture play a role. But I would suspect the main causes are:

    1) The North-South East Slavic cline, with northerners being more intelligent. These northern East Slavs are in Belarus and Russia, but not the Ukraine.

    2) Since the Ukraine has rarely had an independent existence, over the past few centuries ambitious Ukrainians have ended up relocating imperial centers and gradually assimilating in those ethnic groups. So many talented Ukrainians over time became Polish or Russian (or rather their descendants did). There may also be a non-trivial impact by Italian and Turkish slaving operations, depending on what sort of slaves were captured and how many.

    You can see something similar at work in Scotland. Three centuries ago there was a Scottish Enlightenment. Today there is Trainspotting and culinary “innovations” like deep fried pizza and deep fried Mars bars. That is because since the Act of Union talented Scots have relocated to England, other points in the British Empire, and the United States (Andrew Carnegie).

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Thorfinnsson

    Well, we'll just have to be a little more patient and see the newest PISA scores to see just how smart Ukrainian youth today really are. It appears that the information that we hve is dated. I suspect that thre's enough smarts there though, most Ukrainians realize that they're not Russians.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Thorfinnsson

    , @AnonFromTN
    @Thorfinnsson

    There is that. As former Ukrainian foreign ministry employee (who moved to Russia after 2014 coup in Kiev) Rostislav Ishchenko says, smarter Ukrainians call themselves Russians and compete with Russians on a grand scene, whereas good-for-nothings call themselves Ukrainians and compete in that tiny pond, where someone with IQ of 110 looks like a genius.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    , @RadicalCenter
    @Thorfinnsson

    Excellent point and analogy to Scotland as well. Plausible explanation for brain drain out of Ukraine.

    But Italians in recent centuries rounding up people in Ukraine to be slaves?

    Replies: @German_reader

    , @dux.ie
    @Thorfinnsson


    You can see something similar at work in Scotland. Three centuries ago there was a Scottish Enlightenment. Today there is Trainspotting and culinary “innovations” like deep fried pizza and deep fried Mars bars. That is because since the Act of Union talented Scots have relocated to England, other points in the British Empire, and the United States (Andrew Carnegie).
     
    You can apply this in triplicate to the Balkans, especially Albania. For centuries that region provided an overwhelming proportion of the elite troops, religious leaders, the Pashas, the Sultans' wives and mothers etc.
    Human capital was strip-mined from that region, whether voluntarily or not. All those nations essentially missed out on 3-4 centuries of European development. There's no reason to believe that Albania or Bulgaria wouldn't at least be the same level as Croatia if not for the Ottomans.

    Replies: @Gabruak47

  668. @Mikhail
    Sleazy CNN Segment

    Re: https://twitter.com/TGiftiv/status/1175351477788958720

    Originally aired in the early morning hours (NY time) on Saturday, September 21, UCL academic Thomas Gift, has ample reason to not show the whole segment, which serves as a classic example of lousy journalism. Gift and CNN host Natalie Allen carried on like crude propagandists. Towards the end of the segment, Gift tacked on the scapegoating of Russia - as if that country is somehow involved in the suspect manner concerning Joe Biden and his son Hunter.

    In the CNN segment's entirety, Gift belittles the credible claim concerning Joe Biden threatening Ukraine with aid money, if a certain Ukrainian prosecutor wasn't fired for seeking to investigate the Ukrainian gas company Burisma, which employed Biden's son. What this particular CNN segment (as well as some others on that station and MSNBC) have omitted:

    Here's Joe Biden clearly bragging about his threatening Ukraine if said Ukrainian prosecutor wasn't dismissed:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXA--dj2-CY

    After getting kicked out of the navy for using cocaine, Hunter Biden, received a position with Burisma, which has been linked to corruption. Hunter Biden's reported salary at that company is reported at well over $100K a month. This is an especially high salary for someone like him, lacking prior work experience related to the position.

    After this matter was reported in US mass media, Hunter Biden's affiliation with Burisma ended. Relative to the hoopla over Russiagate, the negative attention given to Donald Trump and his children, Joe and Hunter Biden should be considered fair game.

    Some pro-Democratic Party leaning talking heads are aghast that an American president (Trump) might've sought negative information on a potential US presidential candidate (Biden) from a foreign head of state (Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky). If that negative information is true, then what's the big deal if the ideal is to be as well versed as possible on someone like Joe Biden?

    As for using a foreign government to defame a presidential campaign, note the credible evidence linking a DNC effort to try to find negativity on the 2016 Trump campaign, involving the highly paid (over $400K) DNC contractor Alexandra Chalupa (a Ukrainian-American political activist) and the Ukrainian embassy in DC. Related:

    https://medium.com/@stranahan/the-difference-between-wikileaks-and-cnn-is-clear-on-ukraine-dnc-election-collusion-bc5208776d38

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @AnonFromTN

    Full disclosure of the involvement of Biden and his worthless son in corruption in Ukraine would be in the best interests of the American public. That’s exactly why Deep State, via its puppets DNC, NYT, CNN, WaPo, and others of their ilk, will do its level best to prevent this disclosure.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
    @AnonFromTN

    Up to a point. I'm sensing that a number of Dems don't want Biden as the nominee on account of his not so appealing attributes - believing that someone else would be the better option. At the same time, I've no doubt that Biden has some influential folks willing to try to protect him.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

  669. @Thorfinnsson
    @Mr. Hack

    If Ukrainians actually are dimmer than Russians, Balkanoid and perhaps Tatar admixture play a role. But I would suspect the main causes are:

    1) The North-South East Slavic cline, with northerners being more intelligent. These northern East Slavs are in Belarus and Russia, but not the Ukraine.

    2) Since the Ukraine has rarely had an independent existence, over the past few centuries ambitious Ukrainians have ended up relocating imperial centers and gradually assimilating in those ethnic groups. So many talented Ukrainians over time became Polish or Russian (or rather their descendants did). There may also be a non-trivial impact by Italian and Turkish slaving operations, depending on what sort of slaves were captured and how many.

    You can see something similar at work in Scotland. Three centuries ago there was a Scottish Enlightenment. Today there is Trainspotting and culinary "innovations" like deep fried pizza and deep fried Mars bars. That is because since the Act of Union talented Scots have relocated to England, other points in the British Empire, and the United States (Andrew Carnegie).

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @AnonFromTN, @RadicalCenter, @dux.ie

    Well, we’ll just have to be a little more patient and see the newest PISA scores to see just how smart Ukrainian youth today really are. It appears that the information that we hve is dated. I suspect that thre’s enough smarts there though, most Ukrainians realize that they’re not Russians.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Mr. Hack

    Also, as I recall that AP once explained, the Ukrainians who were last tested were about 6 months younger than their peers from other countries. that could account for a few notches lower in the scores...

    , @Thorfinnsson
    @Mr. Hack

    PISA is a nice dataset, but clearly not problem-free. As a previous commenter noted, the idea that Montengrins are dimmer than American blacks is extremely dubious.

    Unfortunately it's unlikely there will be a national IQ tests any time soon.

    Another thing I neglected to mention is that there has been more Ukrainian emigration than Russian emigration (as a share of population), or at least that's my impression. And Ukrainian emigration continues, whereas Russian has largely ended. What was the quality of the emigrants compared to those who stayed behind?

    On the other hand ethnic Russians may have suffered more from the Bolshevik aristocide.

    Karlin has written about Igor Sikorsky as an example. Actually, what was Sikorsky's nationality?

    Sikorsky is a Polish surname, and the man was born in Kiev. According to Wikipedia, his father was an ardent Russian nationalist. Looks like a one-man example of what was lost with the murder of the Russian Empire.

    Replies: @Dmitry

  670. @reiner Tor
    The US is preparing plans to destroy the air defense of Kaliningrad (Russians should change the name), which the Russians don’t like.

    https://breakingdefense.com/2019/09/target-kaliningrad-eucom-puts-putin-on-notice/

    https://sputniknews.com/amp/russia/201909201076848415-kaliningrad-is-protected-after-reports-of-pentagon-breach-of-regions-defence/

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

    That’s just as fake as earlier Pentagon complaints about superiority of Russian weapons. All this song and dance is about one thing only: gimme more money!

    • Agree: melanf
  671. @Mr. Hack
    @Thorfinnsson

    Well, we'll just have to be a little more patient and see the newest PISA scores to see just how smart Ukrainian youth today really are. It appears that the information that we hve is dated. I suspect that thre's enough smarts there though, most Ukrainians realize that they're not Russians.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Thorfinnsson

    Also, as I recall that AP once explained, the Ukrainians who were last tested were about 6 months younger than their peers from other countries. that could account for a few notches lower in the scores…

  672. @Mr. Hack
    @Thorfinnsson

    Well, we'll just have to be a little more patient and see the newest PISA scores to see just how smart Ukrainian youth today really are. It appears that the information that we hve is dated. I suspect that thre's enough smarts there though, most Ukrainians realize that they're not Russians.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Thorfinnsson

    PISA is a nice dataset, but clearly not problem-free. As a previous commenter noted, the idea that Montengrins are dimmer than American blacks is extremely dubious.

    Unfortunately it’s unlikely there will be a national IQ tests any time soon.

    Another thing I neglected to mention is that there has been more Ukrainian emigration than Russian emigration (as a share of population), or at least that’s my impression. And Ukrainian emigration continues, whereas Russian has largely ended. What was the quality of the emigrants compared to those who stayed behind?

    On the other hand ethnic Russians may have suffered more from the Bolshevik aristocide.

    Karlin has written about Igor Sikorsky as an example. Actually, what was Sikorsky’s nationality?

    Sikorsky is a Polish surname, and the man was born in Kiev. According to Wikipedia, his father was an ardent Russian nationalist. Looks like a one-man example of what was lost with the murder of the Russian Empire.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Thorfinnsson


    whereas Russian has largely ended.
     
    Where did you receive that idea?
    The opposite is true. Emigration from Russia is accelerating and increasing its rate.

    But - because of visa restrictions and difficulties - it's only relatively very small when relative to such a country. For a country of the vast population size, the numbers are still very low (because of the visa difficulties for emigration).


    Ukrainian emigration
     
    Currently, a lot of them only have a temporary status as gastarbeiters.

    So Ukrainians which attain a student visa in Poland (for example), are supposed to return to Ukraine after end of their academic studies.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN, @Denis

  673. @Thorfinnsson
    @Mr. Hack

    If Ukrainians actually are dimmer than Russians, Balkanoid and perhaps Tatar admixture play a role. But I would suspect the main causes are:

    1) The North-South East Slavic cline, with northerners being more intelligent. These northern East Slavs are in Belarus and Russia, but not the Ukraine.

    2) Since the Ukraine has rarely had an independent existence, over the past few centuries ambitious Ukrainians have ended up relocating imperial centers and gradually assimilating in those ethnic groups. So many talented Ukrainians over time became Polish or Russian (or rather their descendants did). There may also be a non-trivial impact by Italian and Turkish slaving operations, depending on what sort of slaves were captured and how many.

    You can see something similar at work in Scotland. Three centuries ago there was a Scottish Enlightenment. Today there is Trainspotting and culinary "innovations" like deep fried pizza and deep fried Mars bars. That is because since the Act of Union talented Scots have relocated to England, other points in the British Empire, and the United States (Andrew Carnegie).

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @AnonFromTN, @RadicalCenter, @dux.ie

    There is that. As former Ukrainian foreign ministry employee (who moved to Russia after 2014 coup in Kiev) Rostislav Ishchenko says, smarter Ukrainians call themselves Russians and compete with Russians on a grand scene, whereas good-for-nothings call themselves Ukrainians and compete in that tiny pond, where someone with IQ of 110 looks like a genius.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @AnonFromTN

    And the very smartest Ukrainians, those that are willing to leave their mothers behind in poverty, are the smartest of all? So, what do you call yourself today? Are you an Amerik☭n? What do you have planned for tomorrow?

    Replies: @AnonFromTN, @RadicalCenter

  674. @AnonFromTN
    @Thorfinnsson

    There is that. As former Ukrainian foreign ministry employee (who moved to Russia after 2014 coup in Kiev) Rostislav Ishchenko says, smarter Ukrainians call themselves Russians and compete with Russians on a grand scene, whereas good-for-nothings call themselves Ukrainians and compete in that tiny pond, where someone with IQ of 110 looks like a genius.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    And the very smartest Ukrainians, those that are willing to leave their mothers behind in poverty, are the smartest of all? So, what do you call yourself today? Are you an Amerik☭n? What do you have planned for tomorrow?

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    @Mr. Hack

    FYI, I had to evacuate my mother from Lugansk to the US because of shelling of residential areas of Lugansk by the criminal post-Maidan Ukrainian government. She lived in an area where there were ~50 multi-apartment buildings, two schools, several kindergartens, and nothing else. War criminals shelled this area constantly. The school I went to was hit, so was the library where I used to borrow books when I was in school. The criminals bombed the park in the center of Lugansk where mothers used to walk their children, causing numerous civilian casualties. The criminals responsible for all this are wrong to hope for impunity: they will be hanged. That would be justice. Their new sahibs won’t be able to protect “their sons of bitches”.

    Replies: @Mikhail

    , @RadicalCenter
    @Mr. Hack

    Your ancestors didn’t leave poor family behind when they came to America?

  675. @melanf
    @AP


    Sailer’s link to the 2012 results included scores by American whites, Latinos and blacks for comparison
     
    Well then the list will look like this:

    Finland 523
    White Americans 518 (Sailer 2012)
    Slovenia 509
    Germany 508
    Switzerland 506
    Poland 504
    Russia 492
    Czech Republic 491
    Hungary 475
    Lithuania 475
    Croatia 475
    Hispanic Americans 465 (Sailer 2012)
    Slovakia 463
    Serbia Absent in List
    Bulgaria 440
    African Americans 434 (Sailer 2012)
    Romania 434
    Montenegro 419
    Albania 415

    But in my opinion it's a absolutely pointless list (for example who may be able to believe that Montenegrins are much worst in intellect than African Americans?)

    Replies: @AP

    Mixing results from different years produces invalid comparisons, because presumably the scores are normed differently. Although the results don’t change much.

    for example who may be able to believe that Montenegrins are much worst in intellect than African Americans?

    How many African Americans have you known? Not on TV, but worked with and socialized with daily?

    I haven’t known Montenegrins, but I’ve had a decent number of Balkan refugee patients, people from villages with 4th grade educations. The results from this list are not terribly surprising.

    • Replies: @melanf
    @AP


    How many African Americans have you known?
     
    Zero. But for me (like you) are quite available statistics about both African-Americans and Montenegrins.
    In this list, many other absurdities-for example, a monstrous gap between Slovenia and Slovakia, Portugal which is much smarter than Luxembourg, etc., etc.

    Replies: @AP, @RadicalCenter

  676. @Mr. Hack
    @AnonFromTN

    And the very smartest Ukrainians, those that are willing to leave their mothers behind in poverty, are the smartest of all? So, what do you call yourself today? Are you an Amerik☭n? What do you have planned for tomorrow?

    Replies: @AnonFromTN, @RadicalCenter

    FYI, I had to evacuate my mother from Lugansk to the US because of shelling of residential areas of Lugansk by the criminal post-Maidan Ukrainian government. She lived in an area where there were ~50 multi-apartment buildings, two schools, several kindergartens, and nothing else. War criminals shelled this area constantly. The school I went to was hit, so was the library where I used to borrow books when I was in school. The criminals bombed the park in the center of Lugansk where mothers used to walk their children, causing numerous civilian casualties. The criminals responsible for all this are wrong to hope for impunity: they will be hanged. That would be justice. Their new sahibs won’t be able to protect “their sons of bitches”.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
    @AnonFromTN

    I've heard similar accounts from people in the US (of Russian, Ukrainian and Russo-Ukrainian backgrounds), who've family and friends in the rebel held Donbass areas. Their main beef is with the Kiev regime. Their criticism of Russia is along the lines of the Russian government not doing enough.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

  677. @Thorfinnsson
    @Mr. Hack

    PISA is a nice dataset, but clearly not problem-free. As a previous commenter noted, the idea that Montengrins are dimmer than American blacks is extremely dubious.

    Unfortunately it's unlikely there will be a national IQ tests any time soon.

    Another thing I neglected to mention is that there has been more Ukrainian emigration than Russian emigration (as a share of population), or at least that's my impression. And Ukrainian emigration continues, whereas Russian has largely ended. What was the quality of the emigrants compared to those who stayed behind?

    On the other hand ethnic Russians may have suffered more from the Bolshevik aristocide.

    Karlin has written about Igor Sikorsky as an example. Actually, what was Sikorsky's nationality?

    Sikorsky is a Polish surname, and the man was born in Kiev. According to Wikipedia, his father was an ardent Russian nationalist. Looks like a one-man example of what was lost with the murder of the Russian Empire.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    whereas Russian has largely ended.

    Where did you receive that idea?
    The opposite is true. Emigration from Russia is accelerating and increasing its rate.

    But – because of visa restrictions and difficulties – it’s only relatively very small when relative to such a country. For a country of the vast population size, the numbers are still very low (because of the visa difficulties for emigration).

    Ukrainian emigration

    Currently, a lot of them only have a temporary status as gastarbeiters.

    So Ukrainians which attain a student visa in Poland (for example), are supposed to return to Ukraine after end of their academic studies.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    @Dmitry


    So Ukrainians which attain a student visa in Poland (for example), are supposed to return to Ukraine after end of their academic studies.
     
    They might be dumb, but not dumb enough to return to Ukraine.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    , @Denis
    @Dmitry


    So Ukrainians which attain a student visa in Poland (for example), are supposed to return to Ukraine after end of their academic studies.
     

    supposed to
     
  678. @Dmitry
    @Thulean Friend


    things have deteriorated,
     
    Across the world, Generation Z have less sex and drugs, compared to Millennials (whether in Russia or America).

    And I think I read about in America, Millennial have less sex and drugs compared to Generation X.

    So, current trend is that generations are becoming more introverted and reclusive (perhaps more Japanese).


    most popular artists in America
     
    Visually, we have higher tolerance to nudity in media, probably because of clickbait in the internet.

    At the same time, pop music is becoming less about sex, and has moved to another stage already.

    Compare for examples songs by Madonna, in the 1980s -these all about sex.

    Lyrics of Katy Perry are now singing, not about sex - but about machines. Probably in 30 years in the future, people will be nostalgic and regretful for the time when pop songs were sex and drugs - instead of being narcissistic songs only about consumer technology and human-computer interaction.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Um7pMggPnug

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Thulean Friend

    Across the world, Generation Z have less sex and drugs, compared to Millennials (whether in Russia or America).

    I have read the same thing about Sweden but I think there are significant demographic composition effects at play here. I don’t have the study at my fingertips, I read it some years ago, but the data was from 2014. It showed that while the amount of average sex has come down for the whole population, it has increased dramatically for university students. Female students went from something like ~5 partners in the 1990s to 14(!) in 2014. We don’t break out ethnicity, so I can’t say anything about white working class whites but having grown up close to those people, I certainly did not notice any restraint, quite the opposite trend.

    My guess is what is happening in Sweden is partly related to religion and ethnicity. Our universities are still largely comprised of white secular students with a 15-20% minority of (typically) highly assimilated and liberal minorities who mostly ape these white seculars and their habits. I know of many young women in their early 20s who are virgins with non-European ancestry, vast majority of them muslim but not only. Even if some of may be lying, I doubt they have had more sex than with 1-2 partners at best. The social control in their environments is so great that some of them can’t even go to a bar late at night without facing very severe repercussions. Girls talk. If one of them was on tinder, her friends will know and rumors will swirl. Family and community backlash ensues.

    When I compare the sexual norms today with those when I was growing up, I have seen a significant decay in just the last 15-20 years among ethnic Swedes. We were always very liberal, but in our personal lives it wasn’t that bad before. A certain amount of hypocrisy was at play. I can’t comment on Russia or the US, but in Sweden at least there are demographic composition effects at play here. And I don’t mind. I prefer the social mores of non-Swedes in these matters. All the social science research I’ve seen has strongly shown that the amount of partners you have is correlated with the depth and length of the relationships you can maintain. This is true for both genders. Stronger relationships means a stronger society.

    Beyond this, there’s also the question of aesthetics. Do we really want to glorify strippers and whores? There is not only a utalitarian part of me making this argument, even on a more fundamental aesthetic level there are strong arguments to make. Beauty in of itself is worth pursuing and perfecting. The kind of women our society cherishes in our popular media reflects our social priorities, and the kind of woman we want to project onto girls to emulate.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Thulean Friend

    People require less and less physical proximity for socializing. And with some of the technology that is being developed, this trend will be just be more intensified by the 2050s.

    So I would not relate it to immigration trends (or a proportion of Muslims who might be in the sample at least in some countries) - I believe there are much deeper changes which are, although very slowly, starting to happen.


    question of aesthetics. Do we really want to glorify strippers and whores?
     
    But the aesthetic of the previous couple of decades, was to glorify good looking whores.

    So the obvious problem is how it adds aesthetic pressure on teenage girls, just in terms of their appearance.

    However, there is a much greater spiritual problem to glorification of superficial looks, because since Socrates taught in Athens, we know that the external appearance is irrelevant to the soul.

    Something which will create a more relaxed and civilized atmosphere in the culture, will be when ugly people are glorified equally to the beautiful (although this is somehow against the nature of clickbait, so it will only be possible to a limited extent).

    Imagine if you could have all ugly or ordinary looking people in films and adverts, or modelling for clothes on billboards - it would actually be very civilized atmosphere as it would be a culture which can accept a greater quantity of reality.

  679. Today I was in an example of a 1990s building, which is trying to recreated 18th century neoclassicism.

    I would say it is a failure – because it looks obviously fake to my eyes. Greek front is just very fake and bad taste when compared to adjoining building.

    Here is this 1990s building.
    By comparison here is real, beautiful 18th century architecture of adjoining building.

    Real 18th century adjoining neoclassical buildings which is still very beautiful

    Then another ugly, fake 20th century building

    Question for the university, is whether it is better this kind of fake historical building or their other “modernist” 20th century extensions

    • Replies: @Kent Nationalist
    @Dmitry

    It can be done well, for instance the work of Thomas Gordon Smith

    http://www.tgsarch.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Scan2171.jpg

    Replies: @Dmitry

    , @melanf
    @Dmitry


    Question for the university, is whether it is better this kind of fake historical building or their other “modernist” 20th century extensions
     
    Without a doubt "fake historical building" is better than even the best modernism. And the 21st century historic buildings look (mostly) quite good

    http://nasha-rodina.ru/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Angliyskiy-dom-postroeno-Olegom-Karlsonom-v-Podmoskove.jpg

    https://lambery.ru/upload/iblock/c34/lambery_112.jpg

    Or here for example the temple under construction in St. Petersburg:

    http://sobor-spb.org/uploads/posts/2016-04/1460703450_unnamed.jpg

    The draft of judicial district in St. Petersburg (unfortunately rejected)

    http://tehne.com/assets/i/upload/event/atayanc-2013-15.jpg

    http://image2.thematicnews.com/uploads/topics/preview/00/01/46/36/c490b1ebaf.jpg

    https://i.archi.ru/i/155581.jpg

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Gerard1234

  680. @Dmitry
    Today I was in an example of a 1990s building, which is trying to recreated 18th century neoclassicism.

    I would say it is a failure - because it looks obviously fake to my eyes. Greek front is just very fake and bad taste when compared to adjoining building.

    Here is this 1990s building.
    https://i.imgur.com/0U4uHZa.jpg

    By comparison here is real, beautiful 18th century architecture of adjoining building.

    https://i.imgur.com/FCDohyP.jpg

    Real 18th century adjoining neoclassical buildings which is still very beautiful

    https://i.imgur.com/wriZNKl.jpg


    Then another ugly, fake 20th century building

    https://i.imgur.com/LRtetsa.jpg


    Question for the university, is whether it is better this kind of fake historical building or their other "modernist" 20th century extensions

    https://i.imgur.com/G2TpHuI.jpg

    Replies: @Kent Nationalist, @melanf

    It can be done well, for instance the work of Thomas Gordon Smith

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Kent Nationalist

    This looks quite mediocre for my eyes.

    The Roman bricks look quite realistic in the central facade. But then why large, completely different kind of red bricks for the main wall? (It looks like a standard American construction behind the facade). The main building behind the facade, looks like someone's garage in Utah has been decorated with Roman theme.

    -

    The building I saw today, could potentially have been successful, as the main construction is quite elegant.

    For example, they use high quality and uniform materials.

    But they fuck the proportions with the temple facade.

    Columns are too wide and inelegant? And it just too large for the building.
    https://i.imgur.com/UMJd9yC.jpg

    Decoration above the columns are also too much and not elegant
    https://i.imgur.com/1N21tin.jpg


    -

    I compared with the real 18th century architecture adjoining.

    In the 18th century part of the college, proportions of decorative Ionic columns match the size of the building.

    https://i.imgur.com/yNLlPOl.jpg

    And decoration above columns, is very elegant.

    https://i.imgur.com/FWRQNyA.jpg

  681. @Thulean Friend
    @Dmitry


    Across the world, Generation Z have less sex and drugs, compared to Millennials (whether in Russia or America).
     
    I have read the same thing about Sweden but I think there are significant demographic composition effects at play here. I don't have the study at my fingertips, I read it some years ago, but the data was from 2014. It showed that while the amount of average sex has come down for the whole population, it has increased dramatically for university students. Female students went from something like ~5 partners in the 1990s to 14(!) in 2014. We don't break out ethnicity, so I can't say anything about white working class whites but having grown up close to those people, I certainly did not notice any restraint, quite the opposite trend.

    My guess is what is happening in Sweden is partly related to religion and ethnicity. Our universities are still largely comprised of white secular students with a 15-20% minority of (typically) highly assimilated and liberal minorities who mostly ape these white seculars and their habits. I know of many young women in their early 20s who are virgins with non-European ancestry, vast majority of them muslim but not only. Even if some of may be lying, I doubt they have had more sex than with 1-2 partners at best. The social control in their environments is so great that some of them can't even go to a bar late at night without facing very severe repercussions. Girls talk. If one of them was on tinder, her friends will know and rumors will swirl. Family and community backlash ensues.

    When I compare the sexual norms today with those when I was growing up, I have seen a significant decay in just the last 15-20 years among ethnic Swedes. We were always very liberal, but in our personal lives it wasn't that bad before. A certain amount of hypocrisy was at play. I can't comment on Russia or the US, but in Sweden at least there are demographic composition effects at play here. And I don't mind. I prefer the social mores of non-Swedes in these matters. All the social science research I've seen has strongly shown that the amount of partners you have is correlated with the depth and length of the relationships you can maintain. This is true for both genders. Stronger relationships means a stronger society.

    Beyond this, there's also the question of aesthetics. Do we really want to glorify strippers and whores? There is not only a utalitarian part of me making this argument, even on a more fundamental aesthetic level there are strong arguments to make. Beauty in of itself is worth pursuing and perfecting. The kind of women our society cherishes in our popular media reflects our social priorities, and the kind of woman we want to project onto girls to emulate.

    https://i.imgur.com/NyBpcsp.jpg

    Replies: @Dmitry

    People require less and less physical proximity for socializing. And with some of the technology that is being developed, this trend will be just be more intensified by the 2050s.

    So I would not relate it to immigration trends (or a proportion of Muslims who might be in the sample at least in some countries) – I believe there are much deeper changes which are, although very slowly, starting to happen.

    question of aesthetics. Do we really want to glorify strippers and whores?

    But the aesthetic of the previous couple of decades, was to glorify good looking whores.

    So the obvious problem is how it adds aesthetic pressure on teenage girls, just in terms of their appearance.

    However, there is a much greater spiritual problem to glorification of superficial looks, because since Socrates taught in Athens, we know that the external appearance is irrelevant to the soul.

    Something which will create a more relaxed and civilized atmosphere in the culture, will be when ugly people are glorified equally to the beautiful (although this is somehow against the nature of clickbait, so it will only be possible to a limited extent).

    Imagine if you could have all ugly or ordinary looking people in films and adverts, or modelling for clothes on billboards – it would actually be very civilized atmosphere as it would be a culture which can accept a greater quantity of reality.

  682. @AP
    @melanf

    Mixing results from different years produces invalid comparisons, because presumably the scores are normed differently. Although the results don't change much.


    for example who may be able to believe that Montenegrins are much worst in intellect than African Americans?
     
    How many African Americans have you known? Not on TV, but worked with and socialized with daily?

    I haven't known Montenegrins, but I've had a decent number of Balkan refugee patients, people from villages with 4th grade educations. The results from this list are not terribly surprising.

    Replies: @melanf

    How many African Americans have you known?

    Zero. But for me (like you) are quite available statistics about both African-Americans and Montenegrins.
    In this list, many other absurdities-for example, a monstrous gap between Slovenia and Slovakia, Portugal which is much smarter than Luxembourg, etc., etc.

    • Replies: @AP
    @melanf


    How many African Americans have you known?

    Zero. But for me (like you) are quite available statistics about both African-Americans and Montenegrins.
     
    Montenegro isn't listed here but Bosnia has average IQ of 82 and Serbia of 89:

    https://www.worlddata.info/iq-by-country.php

    This one has Montenegro at 86:

    https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/63ljh1/average_iq_in_europe_by_country/

    Serbs here claim Montenegrins are not as intelligent as Serbs

    African-Americans have an average IQ of 85.

    In this list, many other absurdities-for example, a monstrous gap between Slovenia and Slovakia,
     
    Slovenia consistently scores well on these studies.

    Portugal which is much smarter than Luxembourg
     
    For some reason IQ estimates also place Luxembourg much lower than its neighbors. The country is rich, but because it is a tax haven.

    Each of these studies are imperfect, they contradict one another sometimes, one should proceed cautiously. But when we see a trend across multiple studies it means something. And there is a trend across multiple studies in this case.
    , @RadicalCenter
    @melanf

    “Zero.” I envy you. Truly.

  683. @Kent Nationalist
    @Dmitry

    It can be done well, for instance the work of Thomas Gordon Smith

    http://www.tgsarch.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Scan2171.jpg

    Replies: @Dmitry

    This looks quite mediocre for my eyes.

    The Roman bricks look quite realistic in the central facade. But then why large, completely different kind of red bricks for the main wall? (It looks like a standard American construction behind the facade). The main building behind the facade, looks like someone’s garage in Utah has been decorated with Roman theme.

    The building I saw today, could potentially have been successful, as the main construction is quite elegant.

    For example, they use high quality and uniform materials.

    But they fuck the proportions with the temple facade.

    Columns are too wide and inelegant? And it just too large for the building.
    Decoration above the columns are also too much and not elegant

    I compared with the real 18th century architecture adjoining.

    In the 18th century part of the college, proportions of decorative Ionic columns match the size of the building.

    And decoration above columns, is very elegant.

  684. @Dmitry
    Today I was in an example of a 1990s building, which is trying to recreated 18th century neoclassicism.

    I would say it is a failure - because it looks obviously fake to my eyes. Greek front is just very fake and bad taste when compared to adjoining building.

    Here is this 1990s building.
    https://i.imgur.com/0U4uHZa.jpg

    By comparison here is real, beautiful 18th century architecture of adjoining building.

    https://i.imgur.com/FCDohyP.jpg

    Real 18th century adjoining neoclassical buildings which is still very beautiful

    https://i.imgur.com/wriZNKl.jpg


    Then another ugly, fake 20th century building

    https://i.imgur.com/LRtetsa.jpg


    Question for the university, is whether it is better this kind of fake historical building or their other "modernist" 20th century extensions

    https://i.imgur.com/G2TpHuI.jpg

    Replies: @Kent Nationalist, @melanf

    Question for the university, is whether it is better this kind of fake historical building or their other “modernist” 20th century extensions

    Without a doubt “fake historical building” is better than even the best modernism. And the 21st century historic buildings look (mostly) quite good

    Or here for example the temple under construction in St. Petersburg:

    The draft of judicial district in St. Petersburg (unfortunately rejected)

    • Agree: AP, Thulean Friend
    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @melanf


    “fake historical building” is better than even the best modernism.

     

    Lol here is the 20th century "modernist" part of the college I was in today. It is like they have no effort at all with it.

    https://i.imgur.com/LkF9hPg.jpg

    https://i.imgur.com/Y171ZUW.jpg

    It connects directly to the back of early 19th century building.

    https://i.imgur.com/KS6qLFj.jpg

    ^ The building has mathematical precision, with triangular roof of perfect length on its sides - this precision of dimension is completely necessary for this style, and lack of it is why the 1990s version was a failure I think.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    , @Gerard1234
    @melanf


    Without a doubt “fake historical building” is better than even the best modernism.
     
    Have you seen Poroshenko/Valtsman mansion? That disproves your theory ( though I agree with your general point)...I thought Yanukovich's much discussed, much maligned but more modernist/naturalist mansion is much better in taste.

    but in modernism we are talking about better functionality for mass-use buildings. Sure, less elegant and beautiful arches, and less decorative columns.....but that is exactly what can make the building/room/car-park/utilities more functional as there is more space. Also sane cladding, instead of ugly or even none at all would also reduce the disgust.

    Sydney Opera House is Modernist.........presumably you like that?
  685. @melanf
    @Dmitry


    Question for the university, is whether it is better this kind of fake historical building or their other “modernist” 20th century extensions
     
    Without a doubt "fake historical building" is better than even the best modernism. And the 21st century historic buildings look (mostly) quite good

    http://nasha-rodina.ru/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Angliyskiy-dom-postroeno-Olegom-Karlsonom-v-Podmoskove.jpg

    https://lambery.ru/upload/iblock/c34/lambery_112.jpg

    Or here for example the temple under construction in St. Petersburg:

    http://sobor-spb.org/uploads/posts/2016-04/1460703450_unnamed.jpg

    The draft of judicial district in St. Petersburg (unfortunately rejected)

    http://tehne.com/assets/i/upload/event/atayanc-2013-15.jpg

    http://image2.thematicnews.com/uploads/topics/preview/00/01/46/36/c490b1ebaf.jpg

    https://i.archi.ru/i/155581.jpg

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Gerard1234

    “fake historical building” is better than even the best modernism.

    Lol here is the 20th century “modernist” part of the college I was in today. It is like they have no effort at all with it.

    It connects directly to the back of early 19th century building.

    ^ The building has mathematical precision, with triangular roof of perfect length on its sides – this precision of dimension is completely necessary for this style, and lack of it is why the 1990s version was a failure I think.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Dmitry

    There are situations of very cool modern extensions for universities, as well.

    These (not my photos), of a modernist university study centre in historic area.

    It looks ordinary from outside.

    http://www.dixonjones.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/DSC7-640x498.jpg

    http://www.dcsa.dar.cam.ac.uk/sites/default/files/Study_Centre_Night.jpg

    It's designed so students can study almost "on the water"

    https://vp9architettura.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/04.jpg


    http://www.dixonjones.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/DSC6.jpg

  686. @melanf
    @AP


    How many African Americans have you known?
     
    Zero. But for me (like you) are quite available statistics about both African-Americans and Montenegrins.
    In this list, many other absurdities-for example, a monstrous gap between Slovenia and Slovakia, Portugal which is much smarter than Luxembourg, etc., etc.

    Replies: @AP, @RadicalCenter

    How many African Americans have you known?

    Zero. But for me (like you) are quite available statistics about both African-Americans and Montenegrins.

    Montenegro isn’t listed here but Bosnia has average IQ of 82 and Serbia of 89:

    https://www.worlddata.info/iq-by-country.php

    This one has Montenegro at 86:

    Average IQ in Europe by country
    by ineurope

    Serbs here claim Montenegrins are not as intelligent as Serbs

    African-Americans have an average IQ of 85.

    In this list, many other absurdities-for example, a monstrous gap between Slovenia and Slovakia,

    Slovenia consistently scores well on these studies.

    Portugal which is much smarter than Luxembourg

    For some reason IQ estimates also place Luxembourg much lower than its neighbors. The country is rich, but because it is a tax haven.

    Each of these studies are imperfect, they contradict one another sometimes, one should proceed cautiously. But when we see a trend across multiple studies it means something. And there is a trend across multiple studies in this case.

  687. @Dmitry
    @melanf


    “fake historical building” is better than even the best modernism.

     

    Lol here is the 20th century "modernist" part of the college I was in today. It is like they have no effort at all with it.

    https://i.imgur.com/LkF9hPg.jpg

    https://i.imgur.com/Y171ZUW.jpg

    It connects directly to the back of early 19th century building.

    https://i.imgur.com/KS6qLFj.jpg

    ^ The building has mathematical precision, with triangular roof of perfect length on its sides - this precision of dimension is completely necessary for this style, and lack of it is why the 1990s version was a failure I think.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    There are situations of very cool modern extensions for universities, as well.

    These (not my photos), of a modernist university study centre in historic area.

    It looks ordinary from outside.

    It’s designed so students can study almost “on the water”

  688. @Dmitry
    @Thorfinnsson


    whereas Russian has largely ended.
     
    Where did you receive that idea?
    The opposite is true. Emigration from Russia is accelerating and increasing its rate.

    But - because of visa restrictions and difficulties - it's only relatively very small when relative to such a country. For a country of the vast population size, the numbers are still very low (because of the visa difficulties for emigration).


    Ukrainian emigration
     
    Currently, a lot of them only have a temporary status as gastarbeiters.

    So Ukrainians which attain a student visa in Poland (for example), are supposed to return to Ukraine after end of their academic studies.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN, @Denis

    So Ukrainians which attain a student visa in Poland (for example), are supposed to return to Ukraine after end of their academic studies.

    They might be dumb, but not dumb enough to return to Ukraine.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @AnonFromTN

    Poland has a relatively high state capacity, and it has made the visa situation quite strict for Ukrainians.

    So as I heard, a lot have to return to Ukraine after they complete their academic studies or work permit.

    Ukraine is still far from being part of the EU.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

  689. @Mr. Hack
    @Mikhail


    If that negative information is true, then what’s the big deal if the ideal is to be as well versed as possible on someone like Joe Biden?
     
    You conveniently leave out the important part here Mickey, where supposedly Trump was withholding military equipment to Ukraine if Zelensky's team would not pursue investigating Biden's role in getting his son hired to such a well paying job. The US did, however, eventually provide Ukraine with the military equipment.

    Replies: @Mikhail

    You conveniently ignore that claim (withholding US military aid to Ukraine over getting info on the Bidens) has never been substantiated. The Ukrainian FM said there was nothing pressurizing or unpleasant about the discussion at issue.

    That’s much different than what Biden did when he was Obama’s point man on Ukraine. In that situation, there was blatant pressure.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Mikhail

    No, I actually cast doubt on the whole idea when I wrote "supposedly". I think this next phase of Collusion 2 will center around whether Trump did or didn't use the threat of witholding military equipment with his pressuring of Zelensky to come forth with more dirt on Biden. You are completely right to point out that there's more than ample evidence that shows that Biden was involved in similar chicanery when working under Obama. But Biden seems to have inherited some of Clinton's and Obama's teflon. :-(

  690. @AnonFromTN
    @Mikhail

    Full disclosure of the involvement of Biden and his worthless son in corruption in Ukraine would be in the best interests of the American public. That’s exactly why Deep State, via its puppets DNC, NYT, CNN, WaPo, and others of their ilk, will do its level best to prevent this disclosure.

    Replies: @Mikhail

    Up to a point. I’m sensing that a number of Dems don’t want Biden as the nominee on account of his not so appealing attributes – believing that someone else would be the better option. At the same time, I’ve no doubt that Biden has some influential folks willing to try to protect him.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    @Mikhail

    Biden is a nonentity, a stuffed shirt, no brains (above minimum needed for corruption), no personality, no charisma. Therefore, he is perfectly suited to be a Deep State stooge. The total lack of charisma might hurt his chances, his being corrupt through and through won’t.

    Replies: @Mikhail, @Thorfinnsson, @Gerard1234

  691. @AnonFromTN
    @Mr. Hack

    FYI, I had to evacuate my mother from Lugansk to the US because of shelling of residential areas of Lugansk by the criminal post-Maidan Ukrainian government. She lived in an area where there were ~50 multi-apartment buildings, two schools, several kindergartens, and nothing else. War criminals shelled this area constantly. The school I went to was hit, so was the library where I used to borrow books when I was in school. The criminals bombed the park in the center of Lugansk where mothers used to walk their children, causing numerous civilian casualties. The criminals responsible for all this are wrong to hope for impunity: they will be hanged. That would be justice. Their new sahibs won’t be able to protect “their sons of bitches”.

    Replies: @Mikhail

    I’ve heard similar accounts from people in the US (of Russian, Ukrainian and Russo-Ukrainian backgrounds), who’ve family and friends in the rebel held Donbass areas. Their main beef is with the Kiev regime. Their criticism of Russia is along the lines of the Russian government not doing enough.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    @Mikhail

    I might have felt differently if I were just a distant observer. However, Kiev regime demonstrated its criminality on people I know, my relatives and friends. So, I won’t go to Ukraine until all banderites and the rest of “svidomy” scum hangs on lampposts.

    I know from people living in Lugansk People’s Republic that they would never agree to be a part of any Ukraine, even a sane one (always assuming that this is possible). From what I hear from others, the same applies to Donetsk People’s Republic. On the emotional level, I’d say Russia can do more. However, on the intellectual level I understand that Putin is a president of Russia, not of Donbass. Besides, strong Russia is the only guarantee that banderites won’t genocide Donbass people. So, Russia should do what is best for Russia. As it is clear that it won’t ever abandon Donbass, whatever it’s doing is good enough.

  692. @Mikhail
    @AnonFromTN

    Up to a point. I'm sensing that a number of Dems don't want Biden as the nominee on account of his not so appealing attributes - believing that someone else would be the better option. At the same time, I've no doubt that Biden has some influential folks willing to try to protect him.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

    Biden is a nonentity, a stuffed shirt, no brains (above minimum needed for corruption), no personality, no charisma. Therefore, he is perfectly suited to be a Deep State stooge. The total lack of charisma might hurt his chances, his being corrupt through and through won’t.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
    @AnonFromTN


    his being corrupt through and through won’t.
     
    IMO, he's way too crude/sloppy about it to make the final cut.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

    , @Thorfinnsson
    @AnonFromTN

    Biden has both personality and charisma. He's genuinely likeable, endearing, and amusing. Unlike the typical Democrat these days, he can easily appeal to Middle Americans. At the same time, he has strong support among the black community and can speak frankly to them without groveling or taking a patronizing tone. In this he has a lot in common with Bill Clinton and the original Kennedy brothers. It really sets up apart from the other Democratic frontrunners.

    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2020/president/us/2020_democratic_presidential_nomination-6730.html

    Looking at the rest of the top 5:

    Warren (who leads in the prediction markets) is a shrill, unlikeable woman who lied about being an Indian.

    Sanders has genuine populist appeal and real personality, but he's also a disheveled old Jew who will never be allowed near the Presidency by corporate interests that he lacks the killer instinct to overcome.

    Buttigieg, while verbally impressive, is a disgusting looking homo-sexual saddled with a disastrous surname.

    The mystery meat Harris shares Biden's flaws while possessing none of his virtues.

    It is true that he has no brains and that he is corrupt. In Biden's more than forty years of "public service", it's hard to discern that he's interested in much beyond his own career (reportedly he does do a good job of constituent services, if so kudos to him). His mediocre intelligence and lack of seriousness has torpedoed all of his past campaigns for President, and might yet undo him this time.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN, @AP

    , @Gerard1234
    @AnonFromTN

    Not knowing Americans politics that much.....is he literally no brains or is it a sort of act as it was with George W. Bush ?( his brother Jeb seems dumber to me.....and so did that prick Jon McCain)

    Replies: @AnonFromTN, @Thorfinnsson

  693. It appears AP may be onto something.

    More investigation is required.

    • LOL: AP
    • Replies: @Simpleguest
    @Thorfinnsson

    "It appears AP may be onto something.
    More investigation is required."

    Agree.
    He is on something, definitely.
    My take is bath salts.
    Mandatory examination is recommended.

    Replies: @AP

  694. @Mikhail
    @AnonFromTN

    I've heard similar accounts from people in the US (of Russian, Ukrainian and Russo-Ukrainian backgrounds), who've family and friends in the rebel held Donbass areas. Their main beef is with the Kiev regime. Their criticism of Russia is along the lines of the Russian government not doing enough.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

    I might have felt differently if I were just a distant observer. However, Kiev regime demonstrated its criminality on people I know, my relatives and friends. So, I won’t go to Ukraine until all banderites and the rest of “svidomy” scum hangs on lampposts.

    I know from people living in Lugansk People’s Republic that they would never agree to be a part of any Ukraine, even a sane one (always assuming that this is possible). From what I hear from others, the same applies to Donetsk People’s Republic. On the emotional level, I’d say Russia can do more. However, on the intellectual level I understand that Putin is a president of Russia, not of Donbass. Besides, strong Russia is the only guarantee that banderites won’t genocide Donbass people. So, Russia should do what is best for Russia. As it is clear that it won’t ever abandon Donbass, whatever it’s doing is good enough.

  695. @AnonFromTN
    @Mikhail

    Biden is a nonentity, a stuffed shirt, no brains (above minimum needed for corruption), no personality, no charisma. Therefore, he is perfectly suited to be a Deep State stooge. The total lack of charisma might hurt his chances, his being corrupt through and through won’t.

    Replies: @Mikhail, @Thorfinnsson, @Gerard1234

    his being corrupt through and through won’t.

    IMO, he’s way too crude/sloppy about it to make the final cut.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    @Mikhail

    He is just dumb. As an American joke puts it, “Biden is so dumb that when he went senile, his family didn’t even notice”. Deep State loves dumbasses: they are more obedient than people with normal intelligence.

  696. @AnonFromTN
    @Mikhail

    Biden is a nonentity, a stuffed shirt, no brains (above minimum needed for corruption), no personality, no charisma. Therefore, he is perfectly suited to be a Deep State stooge. The total lack of charisma might hurt his chances, his being corrupt through and through won’t.

    Replies: @Mikhail, @Thorfinnsson, @Gerard1234

    Biden has both personality and charisma. He’s genuinely likeable, endearing, and amusing. Unlike the typical Democrat these days, he can easily appeal to Middle Americans. At the same time, he has strong support among the black community and can speak frankly to them without groveling or taking a patronizing tone. In this he has a lot in common with Bill Clinton and the original Kennedy brothers. It really sets up apart from the other Democratic frontrunners.

    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2020/president/us/2020_democratic_presidential_nomination-6730.html

    Looking at the rest of the top 5:

    Warren (who leads in the prediction markets) is a shrill, unlikeable woman who lied about being an Indian.

    Sanders has genuine populist appeal and real personality, but he’s also a disheveled old Jew who will never be allowed near the Presidency by corporate interests that he lacks the killer instinct to overcome.

    Buttigieg, while verbally impressive, is a disgusting looking homo-sexual saddled with a disastrous surname.

    The mystery meat Harris shares Biden’s flaws while possessing none of his virtues.

    It is true that he has no brains and that he is corrupt. In Biden’s more than forty years of “public service”, it’s hard to discern that he’s interested in much beyond his own career (reportedly he does do a good job of constituent services, if so kudos to him). His mediocre intelligence and lack of seriousness has torpedoed all of his past campaigns for President, and might yet undo him this time.

    • Agree: utu
    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    @Thorfinnsson

    I agree about his lack of brains and corruption. As to charisma, as far as I am concerned, he has the charisma of a brick. I am not black, though, can’t speak for them. I agree that the rest of Dem front-runners are even worse then Biden. If he gets the nod, I hope he loses. Best by a landslide. Mind you, I am not a Trump fan, I did not vote for him (did not vote for the cackling hyena, either).

    , @AP
    @Thorfinnsson

    Excellent descriptions. Biden would probably beat Trump but is the only Democrat who has a high chance of doing so. I can't imagine him going two terms, due to his age and likely cognitive decline.

    If the recession finally hits during his presidency, high chance of a Republican (hopefully, a younger, cleaner, more moral version of Trump) after him.

    Per wiki, Biden finished 76 out of 85 in his class at an above-average but not close to top tier law school. So, rather mediocre intellectually but not an idiot.

  697. @Mikhail
    @AnonFromTN


    his being corrupt through and through won’t.
     
    IMO, he's way too crude/sloppy about it to make the final cut.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

    He is just dumb. As an American joke puts it, “Biden is so dumb that when he went senile, his family didn’t even notice”. Deep State loves dumbasses: they are more obedient than people with normal intelligence.

  698. @Thorfinnsson
    @AnonFromTN

    Biden has both personality and charisma. He's genuinely likeable, endearing, and amusing. Unlike the typical Democrat these days, he can easily appeal to Middle Americans. At the same time, he has strong support among the black community and can speak frankly to them without groveling or taking a patronizing tone. In this he has a lot in common with Bill Clinton and the original Kennedy brothers. It really sets up apart from the other Democratic frontrunners.

    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2020/president/us/2020_democratic_presidential_nomination-6730.html

    Looking at the rest of the top 5:

    Warren (who leads in the prediction markets) is a shrill, unlikeable woman who lied about being an Indian.

    Sanders has genuine populist appeal and real personality, but he's also a disheveled old Jew who will never be allowed near the Presidency by corporate interests that he lacks the killer instinct to overcome.

    Buttigieg, while verbally impressive, is a disgusting looking homo-sexual saddled with a disastrous surname.

    The mystery meat Harris shares Biden's flaws while possessing none of his virtues.

    It is true that he has no brains and that he is corrupt. In Biden's more than forty years of "public service", it's hard to discern that he's interested in much beyond his own career (reportedly he does do a good job of constituent services, if so kudos to him). His mediocre intelligence and lack of seriousness has torpedoed all of his past campaigns for President, and might yet undo him this time.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN, @AP

    I agree about his lack of brains and corruption. As to charisma, as far as I am concerned, he has the charisma of a brick. I am not black, though, can’t speak for them. I agree that the rest of Dem front-runners are even worse then Biden. If he gets the nod, I hope he loses. Best by a landslide. Mind you, I am not a Trump fan, I did not vote for him (did not vote for the cackling hyena, either).

  699. @Thorfinnsson
    @AnonFromTN

    Biden has both personality and charisma. He's genuinely likeable, endearing, and amusing. Unlike the typical Democrat these days, he can easily appeal to Middle Americans. At the same time, he has strong support among the black community and can speak frankly to them without groveling or taking a patronizing tone. In this he has a lot in common with Bill Clinton and the original Kennedy brothers. It really sets up apart from the other Democratic frontrunners.

    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2020/president/us/2020_democratic_presidential_nomination-6730.html

    Looking at the rest of the top 5:

    Warren (who leads in the prediction markets) is a shrill, unlikeable woman who lied about being an Indian.

    Sanders has genuine populist appeal and real personality, but he's also a disheveled old Jew who will never be allowed near the Presidency by corporate interests that he lacks the killer instinct to overcome.

    Buttigieg, while verbally impressive, is a disgusting looking homo-sexual saddled with a disastrous surname.

    The mystery meat Harris shares Biden's flaws while possessing none of his virtues.

    It is true that he has no brains and that he is corrupt. In Biden's more than forty years of "public service", it's hard to discern that he's interested in much beyond his own career (reportedly he does do a good job of constituent services, if so kudos to him). His mediocre intelligence and lack of seriousness has torpedoed all of his past campaigns for President, and might yet undo him this time.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN, @AP

    Excellent descriptions. Biden would probably beat Trump but is the only Democrat who has a high chance of doing so. I can’t imagine him going two terms, due to his age and likely cognitive decline.

    If the recession finally hits during his presidency, high chance of a Republican (hopefully, a younger, cleaner, more moral version of Trump) after him.

    Per wiki, Biden finished 76 out of 85 in his class at an above-average but not close to top tier law school. So, rather mediocre intellectually but not an idiot.

  700. @Mikhail
    @Mr. Hack

    You conveniently ignore that claim (withholding US military aid to Ukraine over getting info on the Bidens) has never been substantiated. The Ukrainian FM said there was nothing pressurizing or unpleasant about the discussion at issue.

    That's much different than what Biden did when he was Obama's point man on Ukraine. In that situation, there was blatant pressure.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    No, I actually cast doubt on the whole idea when I wrote “supposedly”. I think this next phase of Collusion 2 will center around whether Trump did or didn’t use the threat of witholding military equipment with his pressuring of Zelensky to come forth with more dirt on Biden. You are completely right to point out that there’s more than ample evidence that shows that Biden was involved in similar chicanery when working under Obama. But Biden seems to have inherited some of Clinton’s and Obama’s teflon. 🙁

  701. But Biden seems to have inherited some of Clinton’s and Obama’s teflon.

    A good portion of this having to do with a good number of Dems/those leaning in a more Dem direction in US mass media.

  702. @AnonFromTN
    @Mikhail

    Biden is a nonentity, a stuffed shirt, no brains (above minimum needed for corruption), no personality, no charisma. Therefore, he is perfectly suited to be a Deep State stooge. The total lack of charisma might hurt his chances, his being corrupt through and through won’t.

    Replies: @Mikhail, @Thorfinnsson, @Gerard1234

    Not knowing Americans politics that much…..is he literally no brains or is it a sort of act as it was with George W. Bush ?( his brother Jeb seems dumber to me…..and so did that prick Jon McCain)

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    @Gerard1234

    I am not sure. Playing dumb is good for not offending people. However, Biden never was his own man, always played second fiddle to someone else. Smart people tend to be more ambitious. And less transparent in their corrupt dealings. In his defense I might say that Ukraine can spoil a corrupt politician – corruptions is so normal there, that you might forget yourself. Here in the US you are expected to play honest, no matter how corrupt you are.

    I think George W was genuinely dumb. At least he was genuinely ignorant about virtually everything. McCain might have been dumb, but he was mad more than anything else.

    Replies: @Gerard1234

    , @Thorfinnsson
    @Gerard1234

    He's dim by elite standards, not literally stupid. I would peg his IQ at around 115.

    Steve Sailer estimated George W. Bush's IQ at 125 based on his SAT score. W also had a slightly higher GPA at Yale than John Kerry (who attended at nearly the same time) despite being a very hard partier. W had a folksy way of speaking as a result of attending San Jacinto Junior High School and Midland Lee High School, and his dialect was later reinforced by making a career in Texan politics.

    John McCain's IQ was tested at 133 by a Veterans Health Administration psychologist in 1984.

  703. Gerard1234 [AKA "Gerard2"] says:
    @melanf
    @Dmitry


    Question for the university, is whether it is better this kind of fake historical building or their other “modernist” 20th century extensions
     
    Without a doubt "fake historical building" is better than even the best modernism. And the 21st century historic buildings look (mostly) quite good

    http://nasha-rodina.ru/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Angliyskiy-dom-postroeno-Olegom-Karlsonom-v-Podmoskove.jpg

    https://lambery.ru/upload/iblock/c34/lambery_112.jpg

    Or here for example the temple under construction in St. Petersburg:

    http://sobor-spb.org/uploads/posts/2016-04/1460703450_unnamed.jpg

    The draft of judicial district in St. Petersburg (unfortunately rejected)

    http://tehne.com/assets/i/upload/event/atayanc-2013-15.jpg

    http://image2.thematicnews.com/uploads/topics/preview/00/01/46/36/c490b1ebaf.jpg

    https://i.archi.ru/i/155581.jpg

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Gerard1234

    Without a doubt “fake historical building” is better than even the best modernism.

    Have you seen Poroshenko/Valtsman mansion? That disproves your theory ( though I agree with your general point)…I thought Yanukovich’s much discussed, much maligned but more modernist/naturalist mansion is much better in taste.

    but in modernism we are talking about better functionality for mass-use buildings. Sure, less elegant and beautiful arches, and less decorative columns…..but that is exactly what can make the building/room/car-park/utilities more functional as there is more space. Also sane cladding, instead of ugly or even none at all would also reduce the disgust.

    Sydney Opera House is Modernist………presumably you like that?

  704. @Gerard1234
    @AnonFromTN

    Not knowing Americans politics that much.....is he literally no brains or is it a sort of act as it was with George W. Bush ?( his brother Jeb seems dumber to me.....and so did that prick Jon McCain)

    Replies: @AnonFromTN, @Thorfinnsson

    I am not sure. Playing dumb is good for not offending people. However, Biden never was his own man, always played second fiddle to someone else. Smart people tend to be more ambitious. And less transparent in their corrupt dealings. In his defense I might say that Ukraine can spoil a corrupt politician – corruptions is so normal there, that you might forget yourself. Here in the US you are expected to play honest, no matter how corrupt you are.

    I think George W was genuinely dumb. At least he was genuinely ignorant about virtually everything. McCain might have been dumb, but he was mad more than anything else.

    • Replies: @Gerard1234
    @AnonFromTN

    That Ben Carson guy seems smart, for a supposed intellectual I thought Condaleeza Rice's attempts at speaking Russian ( she was supposed to have studied it) were abysmal and suggested a dumbass, Trump to me seems certainly high intelligence and in full control of whatever foreign diplomacy he is or isn't doing...if not necessarily high knowledge, same of course with Reagan...Al Gore, overexaggerated level of knowledge and low intelligence. Nixon, Bob Dole, Bill Clinton and John Kerry- very high intelligence and knowledge

  705. Gerard1234 [AKA "Gerard2"] says:
    @AP
    @anonymous coward

    Your pattern of always being wrong continues. "Little Russian" was the term for the Ukrainian language. So the first significant example of Ukrainian literature, Aneida by Kotlyarevski, was called Little Russian:

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/38/Eneida_Osipov_Kotlayrevsky.jpg/1280px-Eneida_Osipov_Kotlayrevsky.jpg

    So according to the 1897 census, Kiev guberniya was 79% Ukrainian (Little Russian) speaking, 12% Yiddish speaking, 6% Russian speaking, and 2% Polish speaking.

    The Kharkov guberniya was 81% Ukrainian speaking and 18% Russian speaking.

    The Kherson guberniya (which consisted of southern Ukraine, including Odessa but not Crimea) was 53.5% Ukrainian-speaking, 21% Russian-speaking, 12% Yiddish-speaking, 5.5% Romanian-speaking, 4.5% German-speaking, 1% Polish-speaking.

    The Poltava guberniya was the purest Ukrainian guberniya (the western ones had many Poles and Jews, the southern ones and Kharkiv had many Russians). It was 93% Ukrainian-speaking, 4% Yiddish-speaking and 3% Russian-speaking. It is no coincidence that the Ukrainian literary language is based on the Little Russian speech of Poltava.

    Replies: @anonymous coward, @Gerard1234

    LOL..so the pattern here is that a serious intellectual as Anonymous Coward gives an 100% factual and damning argument….then he proceeds to completely substantiate it. You on the other hand, a serious POS ,clearly leech off him out of insecurity/jealousy of his knowledge….particularly when it has been countlessly proved that you can’t speak a word of Russian and simply have no knowledge of what is modern-day”Ukrainian” and what fake nonsense it could have been derived from – because you are a fantasist freak.

    1897 census, Kiev guberniya was 79% Ukrainian (Little Russian) speaking, 12% Yiddish speaking, 6% Russian speaking, and 2% Polish speaking.

    The Kharkov guberniya was 81% Ukrainian speaking and 18% Russian speaking.

    HAHAHAHAHA!……..are these are the same fake polls and distortions as braindead as the census propaganda BS that in 2001 only 25% of people in Kiev spoke Russian as first language?…….when walking round Kiev city for several hours and several kilometeres you can go without hearing any other language except Russian…..not a single world of “Ukrainian”

    But it gets even funnier – imagine being so pathetic that is is a “success” for this fake country to have returned to it a painting by a Russian painter, of a great Russian leader, of a Russian event in history previously stored in a Soviet-created Russian city in the territory of “Ukraine” ( Dnepropetrovsk) originally stolen by the Nazi’s…all because of the complete absence of any “Ukrainian” culture

    https://tass.ru/kultura/5962913

    In all this history of Nazi/Germany reparations…not a single thing taken that classifies as “Ukrainian ” “culture” LOL. Absolutely nothing

    I do realise that Germany would never return the “golden vishivanka? that Jesus wore at the last supper …….or the worlds biggest public toilet ( the Bandera grave in Berlin).but there must be something ( NOT!!)

    So the embarrassing truth is that in a few years of occupation and plunder of “Ukrainian” territory by the Nazis absolutely fuck all culturally “Ukrainian” was found or deemed worthy of being stolen. Not a single set of gold or silver coins with “Ukrainian” inscriptions, not a wooden carving, a “Ukrainian” painting, artefact, statue , ANYTHING. ….even though countless things of national cultural heritage were taken by the Nazis in France, Russia, Holland, Belgium,Yugoslavia, Poland and from their African territories before WW1….but nothing “Ukrainian”. Entirely because it is a made-up culture you idiot

    • Replies: @AP
    @Gerard1234


    serious intellectual as Anonymous Coward
     
    He is a serious intellectual and you are a Sovok "engineer."

    Perfect :-)

    1897 census, Kiev guberniya was 79% Ukrainian (Little Russian) speaking, 12% Yiddish speaking, 6% Russian speaking, and 2% Polish speaking.

    The Kharkov guberniya was 81% Ukrainian speaking and 18% Russian speaking.

    HAHAHAHAHA!……..are these are the same fake polls and distortions
     
    Russian census of 1897:

    http://www.demoscope.ru/weekly/ssp/census.php?cy=0

    I know that as a Sovok "engineer" you can't count, however.
  706. @AP
    @Brutis

    Serbs aren't Slavs, but Slavic-speaking Balkan people, like Albanians. I felt sorry for them when Kosovo was stolen from them but historically they have caused a lot of evil to Europeans.

    Are you from India? That would be very funny but not surprising.

    Ukraine competes with Belarus as being the whitest country in the world. Is that why you hate it?

    Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous, @Brutis, @melanf, @Denis

    Ukraine competes with Belarus as being the whitest country in the world.

    Not sure about that, but it definitely competes with Israel for having the most jewish politicians.

  707. Gerard1234 [AKA "Gerard2"] says:
    @AnonFromTN
    @Gerard1234

    I am not sure. Playing dumb is good for not offending people. However, Biden never was his own man, always played second fiddle to someone else. Smart people tend to be more ambitious. And less transparent in their corrupt dealings. In his defense I might say that Ukraine can spoil a corrupt politician – corruptions is so normal there, that you might forget yourself. Here in the US you are expected to play honest, no matter how corrupt you are.

    I think George W was genuinely dumb. At least he was genuinely ignorant about virtually everything. McCain might have been dumb, but he was mad more than anything else.

    Replies: @Gerard1234

    That Ben Carson guy seems smart, for a supposed intellectual I thought Condaleeza Rice’s attempts at speaking Russian ( she was supposed to have studied it) were abysmal and suggested a dumbass, Trump to me seems certainly high intelligence and in full control of whatever foreign diplomacy he is or isn’t doing…if not necessarily high knowledge, same of course with Reagan…Al Gore, overexaggerated level of knowledge and low intelligence. Nixon, Bob Dole, Bill Clinton and John Kerry- very high intelligence and knowledge

  708. @TheTotallyAnonymous
    @AP


    Okay, the lack of clarity was my fault.

     

    All good.

    When America resettled African-Americans in Africa they took over the pure Africans, treated them like slaves, and created a quasi-American state, Liberia (the African-Americans were more civilized after all). In comparison to Albania, Serbia is kind of like a “Slavic” Liberia in the Balkans.

     

    Unfortunately for you, there are a few basic facts that completely shatter this falsehood you have imagined. That is, Medieval Serbia under the Nemanjic Dynasty. Especially in the first half of the 14th century. The Serbian Nemanjic Dynasty were the first elites on the European content to eat with forks, knives and spoons compared to the Western Euros you worship. Early 14th century Serbia also had it's capital cities located in Raska and Novo Brdo in Kosovo that were extremely wealthy in minerals. The population of Raska and Novo Brdo (this one is unfortunately infested with Shiptars today since it is on Kosovo), though only into a few tens of thousands of people, was just as large, if not even more so, than their medieval equivalents in London and Paris. Serbia also had tracts of fertile agricultural land, with wine being one of the most notable exports of Medieval Serbia. Medieval Serbia also had one of the strongest armies in Europe with well renowned knights and heavy cavalry as it managed to successfully defeat the large powers of its time in wars and battles, Hungary, Byzantium, Venice and Bulgaria (Even the feared Ottomans in a few engagements by the end of the 14th century). Really, in this time period, Serbia was at a level as comparable if not even superior to the European states of its time. Bulgaria was also vassalized to Serbia for a short time period in the early 14th century as well. Tsar Stefan Dusan made Serbia extend from modern and central Serbia through all of modern Montenegro, Albania, Macedonia (even including the Greek part) up to around Thessaly and Epirus.

    The problem with Medieval Serbia was that after the death of Tsar Stefan Dusan (he was poisoned by a Greek/Byzantine doctor) in 1355, Serbia fell apart into civil war in a similar manner to the Frankish Kingdom in the 9th century. The problem with this is that the timing was horrible as it happened exactly as the Turks began crossing into the Balkans through the rump Byzantine Empire. Two elite Serbian noble brothers Vukasin and Ugljesa Mrnjavcevic along with many others marched out to meet the Turks in front of modern day Edirne at the Battle of Maritsa in 1371. Since they outnumbered the Turks, the Turkish Pasha falsely promised to surrender the keys to the city to them, but at night, he launched a surprise attack to slaughter the Serbian army that was sleeping. Apparently they felt so confident in themselves that they did not even bother to put up proper patrols and night shifts to guard the camp which is why they got so easily slaughtered and massacred by the Turks, since after all, the Turks are obviously not known for their trustworthiness. Anyway, this is at least how the official historiography of that battle goes since from that moment, Serbia became a secondary state and any capacity it had to grow into a great and powerful European country, or world power, died there and then basically for eternity (Maybe with Stefan Dusan's death?). The Turks have permanently ruined the whole Balkans since the late 14th century (the fate of the Balkans then depended mostly on Serbia) until 1913 with their many centuries of Islamic barbarism, arbitrary violence and overall backwardness. The problem with not just Serbia, but countries in the Balkans and East Europe in general, is that even small errors, mistakes, setbacks or simply pure bad luck are usually permanent death blows which completely ruin these countries' and peoples' capacity to be on the world stage of great powers (this possibility died centuries ago) or even secondary powers, which is the highest they can realistically hope to achieve.

    By the way, in modern Serbia before WW1, Serbia was actually more economically prosperous than Switzerland as it was a well known phenomenon that Swiss guest workers, notably maids, would come to work in Serbia for money from wealthy families (so common that it features in a play of Branislav Nusic). Unfortunately, today it is the other way around.

    As for the Serb-Albanian relationship, in a 15th century Ottoman census it clearly showed that Serbs were the overwhelming majority population of Kosovo with there being a tiny Shiptar population. In fact, current "Albanian" cities such as Ishkodra (more properly called Skadar) were completely Serbian in this time period. As for Shiptars in general, the overwhelming amount of historical evidence points to the fakeness of their country, national identity and artificial non-native presence in the Balkans. The evidence that Shiptars migrated to the Balkans in the mid-Feudal ages is overwhelming (that is, after the supposed Slav migration of the 7th century, if you buy the Berlin-Vienna thesis for Serbs). Therefore, with the exception of Northern Epirus, all of modern day Albania is rightfully Serbian land inhabited by majority Muslim alien barbarians, not just Kosovo and parts of Monkeydonia.

    Replies: @Korenchkin, @German_reader, @Mr. Hack, @Epigon, @Denis

    You are really wasting your breath.

  709. @AnonFromTN
    @Blinky Bill

    Yea, the spirit is still there. Once in a century, Europe unites, makes war on Russia, gets beaten to pulp, and then slithers back into its hole and complains. Nineteenth century – Napoleon; twentieth century – Hitler, twenty first century - ?

    Replies: @Denis, @reiner Tor

    Yea, the spirit is still there. Once in a century, Europe unites, makes war on Russia, gets beaten to pulp, and then slithers back into its hole and complains. Nineteenth century – Napoleon; twentieth century – Hitler, twenty first century – ?

    Let us keep our fingers crossed that that last one remains a question mark.

  710. @Logan
    @Matra

    Uhh, first-cousin marriage (which is what I assume you're referring to) is legal in about 50% of US states.

    Replies: @RadicalCenter

    You’re right. Seems like more than half. Three of our four most populous States allow this disgusting and unhealthy practice: #1 California, #3 Florida, and #4 New York, as well as other populous States like #11 New Jersey.

    There’s no way we should be allowing people to marry their first cousins, nor admitting any immigrant couple whose blood/saliva tests show that they are first cousins. In addition to the moral issue, we have far too many laws and mores encouraging dysgenic reproduction already — I.e. of less intelligent, less productive, more violent or volatile people.

    West Virginia has long taken flam and condescending jokes about being inbred. But WVA doesn’t allow first cousins to marry. Good for them.

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
    @RadicalCenter

    https://www.thespruce.com/cousin-marriage-laws-listed-by-state-2300731

  711. @RadicalCenter
    @Logan

    You’re right. Seems like more than half. Three of our four most populous States allow this disgusting and unhealthy practice: #1 California, #3 Florida, and #4 New York, as well as other populous States like #11 New Jersey.

    There’s no way we should be allowing people to marry their first cousins, nor admitting any immigrant couple whose blood/saliva tests show that they are first cousins. In addition to the moral issue, we have far too many laws and mores encouraging dysgenic reproduction already — I.e. of less intelligent, less productive, more violent or volatile people.

    West Virginia has long taken flam and condescending jokes about being inbred. But WVA doesn’t allow first cousins to marry. Good for them.

    Replies: @RadicalCenter

  712. @Dmitry
    @Thorfinnsson


    whereas Russian has largely ended.
     
    Where did you receive that idea?
    The opposite is true. Emigration from Russia is accelerating and increasing its rate.

    But - because of visa restrictions and difficulties - it's only relatively very small when relative to such a country. For a country of the vast population size, the numbers are still very low (because of the visa difficulties for emigration).


    Ukrainian emigration
     
    Currently, a lot of them only have a temporary status as gastarbeiters.

    So Ukrainians which attain a student visa in Poland (for example), are supposed to return to Ukraine after end of their academic studies.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN, @Denis

    So Ukrainians which attain a student visa in Poland (for example), are supposed to return to Ukraine after end of their academic studies.

    supposed to

  713. @Mr. Hack
    @Thorfinnsson


    To include only those who came over on the Mayflower would limit the definition of American to New England Puritans (or rather their descendants).
     
    So, you've decided to include all of those who came before 1910? That would seem to include most all of Black-Americans that you choose to characterize as a separate nationality? Why not include them in an all encompasing nationality, like indeed almost all Americans do today? Haven't they earned this right through their contributions to this society? If not, why not set-up some sort of litmus test that also includes/excludes certain white groups too. Some, at this site (not I) would argue that due to a lesser overall national IQ, people of Balkan descent are somehow less Slavic. Perhaps, they aren't made of the right stuff to be considered as Americans too? How about semitic peoples? Your method seems too arbitrary and untenable in today's world. Who would be involved in setting up these strange litmus tests anyway? Some might even characterize this stuff as kooky? :-)

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @RadicalCenter

    Most black “Americans” certainly don’t consider themselves to be part of the same nation and culture as us. And through decades of bitter experience and abuse at their hands, the feeling has become mutual for many of us, including those of us who weren’t raised with animus against them.

  714. @melanf
    @AP


    Albanians:
    Serbs:
    They look similar, Serbs are lighter.
     
    This is clearly a ridiculous (in this case) way of comparing.

    Serbs are also similar to (for example) Spaniards

    https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-KZR53t1qbSc/VDJ0kw4j7WI/AAAAAAAArx0/GfYHYOh7dcg/s912/SvecaniPrijemBrucosaPFB-062.JPG

    http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5110/5609629645_48edc6a1a1_b.jpg

    https://www.arbitrationassociation.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/BGMoottim2016.jpg

    http://cmapspublic2.ihmc.us/rid=1176747146049_1220501028_10153/alumnos%20espa%D0%93%C2%B1oles.jpg

    Also Serbs will be similar to Italians, Greeks, Ukrainians.... any people with a predominant southern European phenotype.

    Replies: @melanf, @RadicalCenter, @RadicalCenter

    Ukrainians I’ve seen in the Ukraine and in the USA and Canada, typically do not look much like Italians or Greeks. Their phenotype is not mainly Southern European, which should be obvious from their characteristic appearance and their genes. Ukrainians look more often somewhat like Scandinavians and northern Russians.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    @RadicalCenter

    You must have met a carefully selected bunch. It is not representative. Black hair and dark eyes are so common that they even made it into Ukrainian folk songs (чорнiї брови, карiї очi, if you read Cyrillic).

  715. @melanf
    @AP


    Albanians:
    Serbs:
    They look similar, Serbs are lighter.
     
    This is clearly a ridiculous (in this case) way of comparing.

    Serbs are also similar to (for example) Spaniards

    https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-KZR53t1qbSc/VDJ0kw4j7WI/AAAAAAAArx0/GfYHYOh7dcg/s912/SvecaniPrijemBrucosaPFB-062.JPG

    http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5110/5609629645_48edc6a1a1_b.jpg

    https://www.arbitrationassociation.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/BGMoottim2016.jpg

    http://cmapspublic2.ihmc.us/rid=1176747146049_1220501028_10153/alumnos%20espa%D0%93%C2%B1oles.jpg

    Also Serbs will be similar to Italians, Greeks, Ukrainians.... any people with a predominant southern European phenotype.

    Replies: @melanf, @RadicalCenter, @RadicalCenter

    Ukrainians I’ve seen in the Ukraine and in the USA and Canada, typically do not look much like Italians or Greeks. (I’m roughly half Italian genetically and, despite being tall and having light eyes, look very little like most Ukrainians.)

    Their phenotype is not mainly Southern European, which should be obvious from their characteristic appearance and their genes.

    Ukrainians look more often somewhat like Scandinavians and northern Russians.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @RadicalCenter

    Sure, much of the appearance same as any Northern European races - but territory of Ukraine includes a wide mix of different races, and territory of different nations.

    If you look at the youth of Chernovtsy today. In such a city, there can be people as dark as Italians or the Balkan races.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7NIsKHKRIw

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    , @melanf
    @RadicalCenter


    Ukrainians I’ve seen in the Ukraine and in the USA and Canada, typically do not look much like Italians or Greeks...Ukrainians look more often somewhat like Scandinavians and northern Russians.
     
    Here is the hair color index from the anthropological table (the higher the number, the darker the hair). http://www.balto-slavica.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=12265

    Karelians - 2.38 (this is the level of blondism Finns, the maximum blondism in the world),
    Estonians - 2.53 (about a level blondism Swedes and Norwegians).
    Russian from 2.48 (near Arkhangelsk) to 2.95 (valley of the Oka river).
    Southern regions of Russia (colonized in the 18-19 centuries) have not been studied, there is probably even darker hair color.
    Ukrainians 3.16-3.44.
    Moldovans, Bulgarians and Gagauz - 3.47,
    Tatars - 3.71.

    That is, Ukrainians are still more South Europeans.

    Replies: @AP

  716. @Mr. Hack
    @Korenchkin

    I think that you've made some pretty decent comments here (especially #385) pointing out some questionable points within AP's arguments. Actually, I think AP (as ususal) is right on with the facts he presents, but I don't quite know where he's going with all of this? He even admits, that an important sub-component of the Ukrainian ethnos is "Balkanoid", so perhaps he should be a little more judicious to these folks. :-) He's even conceded that it's rather likely that the Croats, another "Balkanoid" people probably got there first strong impetus from the White Croat tribe centered in Western Ukraine.

    Nobody here has contradiced his claim that perhaps no more than 25% of the modern day Serbian ethnos has real "superace" slavic genetic structure. My question is where is AP going with all of this? Does this mean that the Serbian nation today is somehow inferior to Poland, Ukraine, Byelorus or even Russia? Is the civilization that they've created for themselves somehow suffered due to a loss of "superace" genes? I think he has a long way to go to subtantiate anything like this.

    On a lighter note, it's reassuring to see that AK has upped his claim to superace genes from 50% to 65%. (I always suspected that this was the cae, even though I showed in an earlier thread that his clan probably originated in Ireland). :-)

    Replies: @AP, @Korenchkin, @Denis

    “Actually, I think AP (as ususal) is right on with the facts he presents, but I don’t quite know where he’s going with all of this?”

    He is still butthurt that Austro-Hungary collapsed and holds Serbs partially (totally?) responsible for this, so he aimlessly vents bitterness at us on occassion.

  717. @RadicalCenter
    @melanf

    Ukrainians I’ve seen in the Ukraine and in the USA and Canada, typically do not look much like Italians or Greeks. Their phenotype is not mainly Southern European, which should be obvious from their characteristic appearance and their genes. Ukrainians look more often somewhat like Scandinavians and northern Russians.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

    You must have met a carefully selected bunch. It is not representative. Black hair and dark eyes are so common that they even made it into Ukrainian folk songs (чорнiї брови, карiї очi, if you read Cyrillic).

  718. @RadicalCenter
    @melanf

    Ukrainians I’ve seen in the Ukraine and in the USA and Canada, typically do not look much like Italians or Greeks. (I’m roughly half Italian genetically and, despite being tall and having light eyes, look very little like most Ukrainians.)

    Their phenotype is not mainly Southern European, which should be obvious from their characteristic appearance and their genes.

    Ukrainians look more often somewhat like Scandinavians and northern Russians.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @melanf

    Sure, much of the appearance same as any Northern European races – but territory of Ukraine includes a wide mix of different races, and territory of different nations.

    If you look at the youth of Chernovtsy today. In such a city, there can be people as dark as Italians or the Balkan races.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Dmitry

    You're definitely on to something here. There are definitely a lot of darker skinned and darker haired people in Bukovina. I used to think that this was due to a lot of intermarriage between the Romanians in the southern part and the Ukrainians in the north. However, I'm also beginning to think that both modern nationalities (at least in this region) originally derived from Slavs (Antes and Sclavenes) that
    were to be found in this area in the early centuries of the common era. This book is opening my eyes up to a lot of possibilities: "The Making of the Slavs: History and Archaeology of the Lower Danube Region c 500 - 700" by Florin Curta.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  719. @Gerard1234
    @AnonFromTN

    Not knowing Americans politics that much.....is he literally no brains or is it a sort of act as it was with George W. Bush ?( his brother Jeb seems dumber to me.....and so did that prick Jon McCain)

    Replies: @AnonFromTN, @Thorfinnsson

    He’s dim by elite standards, not literally stupid. I would peg his IQ at around 115.

    Steve Sailer estimated George W. Bush’s IQ at 125 based on his SAT score. W also had a slightly higher GPA at Yale than John Kerry (who attended at nearly the same time) despite being a very hard partier. W had a folksy way of speaking as a result of attending San Jacinto Junior High School and Midland Lee High School, and his dialect was later reinforced by making a career in Texan politics.

    John McCain’s IQ was tested at 133 by a Veterans Health Administration psychologist in 1984.

  720. @Korenchkin
    @Mr. Hack


    superace
     
    One branch of this super race is launching men to the ISS from Baikonur, one is selling it's daughters to Kikes in Tel Aviv, one is fighting against another branch in Donetsk and one is fucking little boys in Kabul
    No one is safe from bad branches, and sometimes they need to broken or trimmed (sorry Weihan)

    South Slavs helped found the American space program (Pupin), charted the Earths movements over thousands of years (Milankovic) and defined the boundry of the Earths crust and mantle layer (Mohorovcic), there were even Serbs working on the Appolo program (Vucelic and at least 6 others)
    This isn't even to mention Tesla and the Cyrillic alphabet
    Under the right conditions a healthy tree could grow here, even if not as fruit bearing as other trees

    I do not want them compared to Africans and Mestizos

    Looking at Ukraine today it is easy to poke at it and make nasty comparisons but it would be unfair and posters here disrespect Ukranians sometimes too much (though you are asking for it sometimes), so I know you understand this feeling
    Everyone here wants Ukraine to prosper, we only disagree under which flag

    Since Western Europe and Anglosphere have decided to commit suicide by immigration it falls to Slavs and East Asians to carry the metaphorical torch, and the questions we discuss here will need to be answered if we are a to have a future together
    A united Slavic state is unlikely and foolish to expect, but something like a Slavic EU or the Intermarrium are not, should NATO and/or the EU collapse these will be the options on the table

    I don't want you or AP to stop posting, but I do want posts to be of a higher quality, though I also do want to own a unicorn too (heres hoping for crispr ponies)

    Replies: @AP, @Mr. Hack, @Denis

    This was an excellent comment. Particularly:

    Looking at Ukraine today it is easy to poke at it and make nasty comparisons but it would be unfair and posters here disrespect Ukranians sometimes too much (though you are asking for it sometimes), so I know you understand this feeling
    Everyone here wants Ukraine to prosper, we only disagree under which flag

  721. @AnonFromTN
    @Dmitry


    So Ukrainians which attain a student visa in Poland (for example), are supposed to return to Ukraine after end of their academic studies.
     
    They might be dumb, but not dumb enough to return to Ukraine.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    Poland has a relatively high state capacity, and it has made the visa situation quite strict for Ukrainians.

    So as I heard, a lot have to return to Ukraine after they complete their academic studies or work permit.

    Ukraine is still far from being part of the EU.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    @Dmitry

    Yes, Poland tries hard to prevent Ukrainians from overstaying their student visas. But considering that they have millions of Ukrainians working illegally, this is about as pointless as tougher new US visa rules at the time when millions of Latinos cross Southern border illegally. I know (via Skype) only one Ukrainian who got Polish student visa, but he was smart enough to get a fake document attesting to his Polish ancestry, so he hopes to get the Polish card (карта поляка) and never return. Nowadays you can buy “proof” of your Polish ancestry in Ukraine, various fraudsters charge from $2,000 to $10,000 for it (depending on client stupidity and their arrogance). My point is, by hook or by crook, Ukrainians will try to remain in Poland, as their country is not fit for human living. Considering that Poles run to the Western Europe in droves, snatching low-level jobs, this tells you a lot about Ukraine.

    As to Ukraine joining the EU, this is best described by a recent joke:
    - When Ukraine will join the EU?
    - Right after Turkey.
    - And when Turkey will join the EU?
    - Never.

    Replies: @AP, @Dmitry

  722. @RadicalCenter
    @melanf

    Ukrainians I’ve seen in the Ukraine and in the USA and Canada, typically do not look much like Italians or Greeks. (I’m roughly half Italian genetically and, despite being tall and having light eyes, look very little like most Ukrainians.)

    Their phenotype is not mainly Southern European, which should be obvious from their characteristic appearance and their genes.

    Ukrainians look more often somewhat like Scandinavians and northern Russians.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @melanf

    Ukrainians I’ve seen in the Ukraine and in the USA and Canada, typically do not look much like Italians or Greeks…Ukrainians look more often somewhat like Scandinavians and northern Russians.

    Here is the hair color index from the anthropological table (the higher the number, the darker the hair). http://www.balto-slavica.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=12265

    Karelians – 2.38 (this is the level of blondism Finns, the maximum blondism in the world),
    Estonians – 2.53 (about a level blondism Swedes and Norwegians).
    Russian from 2.48 (near Arkhangelsk) to 2.95 (valley of the Oka river).
    Southern regions of Russia (colonized in the 18-19 centuries) have not been studied, there is probably even darker hair color.
    Ukrainians 3.16-3.44.
    Moldovans, Bulgarians and Gagauz – 3.47,
    Tatars – 3.71.

    That is, Ukrainians are still more South Europeans.

    • Replies: @AP
    @melanf


    Here is the hair color index from the anthropological table (the higher the number, the darker the hair). http://www.balto-slavica.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=12265

     

    Table is strange, it lists Hungarians as darker than anybody else other than Tatars (and nearly as dark as them). Not very realistic.

    Southern regions of Russia (colonized in the 18-19 centuries) have not been studied, there is probably even darker hair color.
     
    About as dark as Ukrainians, perhaps even a little darker.

    Lviv people:

    https://img.fotocommunity.com/policewomen-in-lviv-ukraine-c85c7280-12df-411a-ba21-5734c8d84f29.jpg?height=1080

    https://c8.alamy.com/comp/CR3DRY/people-on-benches-on-the-prospekt-swobody-lviv-ukraine-CR3DRY.jpg

    https://www.daxx.com/uploads/it-community-lviv-gdg20181102.jpg

    Dnipropetrovsk:

    https://ak9.picdn.net/shutterstock/videos/13157159/thumb/1.jpg

    Volgograd people:

    http://agapeua.com/Content/images/photo/1a5ffb8b4e6aa83.jpg

    https://c8.alamy.com/comp/J00N9T/volgograd-russia-april-8-2017-people-hold-signs-with-messages-reading-J00N9T.jpg

    Folk band from Saratov:

    http://www.barynya.com/images/zabava3.jpg

    Replies: @melanf

  723. @Gerard1234
    @AP

    LOL..so the pattern here is that a serious intellectual as Anonymous Coward gives an 100% factual and damning argument....then he proceeds to completely substantiate it. You on the other hand, a serious POS ,clearly leech off him out of insecurity/jealousy of his knowledge....particularly when it has been countlessly proved that you can't speak a word of Russian and simply have no knowledge of what is modern-day"Ukrainian" and what fake nonsense it could have been derived from - because you are a fantasist freak.


    1897 census, Kiev guberniya was 79% Ukrainian (Little Russian) speaking, 12% Yiddish speaking, 6% Russian speaking, and 2% Polish speaking.

    The Kharkov guberniya was 81% Ukrainian speaking and 18% Russian speaking.

     

    HAHAHAHAHA!........are these are the same fake polls and distortions as braindead as the census propaganda BS that in 2001 only 25% of people in Kiev spoke Russian as first language?.......when walking round Kiev city for several hours and several kilometeres you can go without hearing any other language except Russian.....not a single world of "Ukrainian"

    But it gets even funnier - imagine being so pathetic that is is a "success" for this fake country to have returned to it a painting by a Russian painter, of a great Russian leader, of a Russian event in history previously stored in a Soviet-created Russian city in the territory of "Ukraine" ( Dnepropetrovsk) originally stolen by the Nazi's...all because of the complete absence of any "Ukrainian" culture

    https://tass.ru/kultura/5962913

    In all this history of Nazi/Germany reparations...not a single thing taken that classifies as "Ukrainian " "culture" LOL. Absolutely nothing

    I do realise that Germany would never return the "golden vishivanka? that Jesus wore at the last supper .......or the worlds biggest public toilet ( the Bandera grave in Berlin).but there must be something ( NOT!!)

    So the embarrassing truth is that in a few years of occupation and plunder of "Ukrainian" territory by the Nazis absolutely fuck all culturally "Ukrainian" was found or deemed worthy of being stolen. Not a single set of gold or silver coins with "Ukrainian" inscriptions, not a wooden carving, a "Ukrainian" painting, artefact, statue , ANYTHING. ....even though countless things of national cultural heritage were taken by the Nazis in France, Russia, Holland, Belgium,Yugoslavia, Poland and from their African territories before WW1....but nothing "Ukrainian". Entirely because it is a made-up culture you idiot

    Replies: @AP

    serious intellectual as Anonymous Coward

    He is a serious intellectual and you are a Sovok “engineer.”

    Perfect 🙂

    1897 census, Kiev guberniya was 79% Ukrainian (Little Russian) speaking, 12% Yiddish speaking, 6% Russian speaking, and 2% Polish speaking.

    The Kharkov guberniya was 81% Ukrainian speaking and 18% Russian speaking.

    HAHAHAHAHA!……..are these are the same fake polls and distortions

    Russian census of 1897:

    http://www.demoscope.ru/weekly/ssp/census.php?cy=0

    I know that as a Sovok “engineer” you can’t count, however.

  724. @melanf
    @RadicalCenter


    Ukrainians I’ve seen in the Ukraine and in the USA and Canada, typically do not look much like Italians or Greeks...Ukrainians look more often somewhat like Scandinavians and northern Russians.
     
    Here is the hair color index from the anthropological table (the higher the number, the darker the hair). http://www.balto-slavica.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=12265

    Karelians - 2.38 (this is the level of blondism Finns, the maximum blondism in the world),
    Estonians - 2.53 (about a level blondism Swedes and Norwegians).
    Russian from 2.48 (near Arkhangelsk) to 2.95 (valley of the Oka river).
    Southern regions of Russia (colonized in the 18-19 centuries) have not been studied, there is probably even darker hair color.
    Ukrainians 3.16-3.44.
    Moldovans, Bulgarians and Gagauz - 3.47,
    Tatars - 3.71.

    That is, Ukrainians are still more South Europeans.

    Replies: @AP

    Here is the hair color index from the anthropological table (the higher the number, the darker the hair). http://www.balto-slavica.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=12265

    Table is strange, it lists Hungarians as darker than anybody else other than Tatars (and nearly as dark as them). Not very realistic.

    Southern regions of Russia (colonized in the 18-19 centuries) have not been studied, there is probably even darker hair color.

    About as dark as Ukrainians, perhaps even a little darker.

    Lviv people:

    Dnipropetrovsk:

    Volgograd people:

    Folk band from Saratov:

    • Replies: @melanf
    @AP


    Table is strange, it lists Hungarians as darker than anybody else
     
    The table summarizes information from several books on anthropology, may be (as a result of the error) there different scales (for Hungarians and peoples of the USSR).

    Hungarians as darker than anybody else other than Tatars (and nearly as dark as them)
     
    Kazan Tatars are really about as dark haired as Hungarians

    https://s10.stc.all.kpcdn.net/share/i/12/8266154/inx960x640.jpg

    https://i.eurosport.com/2006/09/22/309169-24235875-1600-900.jpg

    They are not Mongols or Arabs

    Even the Crimean Tatars relatively (for southern people) lighthaired

    https://st.kp.yandex.net/im/kadr/2/4/8/kinopoisk.ru-Aziza-Ibragimova-2487736.jpg

    Replies: @AP

  725. @AP
    @melanf


    Here is the hair color index from the anthropological table (the higher the number, the darker the hair). http://www.balto-slavica.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=12265

     

    Table is strange, it lists Hungarians as darker than anybody else other than Tatars (and nearly as dark as them). Not very realistic.

    Southern regions of Russia (colonized in the 18-19 centuries) have not been studied, there is probably even darker hair color.
     
    About as dark as Ukrainians, perhaps even a little darker.

    Lviv people:

    https://img.fotocommunity.com/policewomen-in-lviv-ukraine-c85c7280-12df-411a-ba21-5734c8d84f29.jpg?height=1080

    https://c8.alamy.com/comp/CR3DRY/people-on-benches-on-the-prospekt-swobody-lviv-ukraine-CR3DRY.jpg

    https://www.daxx.com/uploads/it-community-lviv-gdg20181102.jpg

    Dnipropetrovsk:

    https://ak9.picdn.net/shutterstock/videos/13157159/thumb/1.jpg

    Volgograd people:

    http://agapeua.com/Content/images/photo/1a5ffb8b4e6aa83.jpg

    https://c8.alamy.com/comp/J00N9T/volgograd-russia-april-8-2017-people-hold-signs-with-messages-reading-J00N9T.jpg

    Folk band from Saratov:

    http://www.barynya.com/images/zabava3.jpg

    Replies: @melanf

    Table is strange, it lists Hungarians as darker than anybody else

    The table summarizes information from several books on anthropology, may be (as a result of the error) there different scales (for Hungarians and peoples of the USSR).

    Hungarians as darker than anybody else other than Tatars (and nearly as dark as them)

    Kazan Tatars are really about as dark haired as Hungarians

    They are not Mongols or Arabs

    Even the Crimean Tatars relatively (for southern people) lighthaired

    • Replies: @AP
    @melanf

    Good point, although the chart lists Tatars alongside Bashkirs who are pretty dark:

    http://i.imgur.com/rqEthUW.png

    https://2.ruble.tech/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/9b1198d0914ed9e69adc88b2fd00d54c--face-reference-female-faces-720x922.jpg

    ::::::::::::::

    Speaking of which (and to circle back to an earlier topic here), many Bashkirs and Tatars are monolingual in Russian (as are many Kazakhs). They also have some significant Russian descent. By the logic of those who deem Balkan peoples to be Slavs, would this make them a third branch of the Slavic people, alongside Balkanoids and what I would refer to as actual Slavs?

    Replies: @melanf

  726. @melanf
    @AP


    Table is strange, it lists Hungarians as darker than anybody else
     
    The table summarizes information from several books on anthropology, may be (as a result of the error) there different scales (for Hungarians and peoples of the USSR).

    Hungarians as darker than anybody else other than Tatars (and nearly as dark as them)
     
    Kazan Tatars are really about as dark haired as Hungarians

    https://s10.stc.all.kpcdn.net/share/i/12/8266154/inx960x640.jpg

    https://i.eurosport.com/2006/09/22/309169-24235875-1600-900.jpg

    They are not Mongols or Arabs

    Even the Crimean Tatars relatively (for southern people) lighthaired

    https://st.kp.yandex.net/im/kadr/2/4/8/kinopoisk.ru-Aziza-Ibragimova-2487736.jpg

    Replies: @AP

    Good point, although the chart lists Tatars alongside Bashkirs who are pretty dark:

    ::::::::::::::

    Speaking of which (and to circle back to an earlier topic here), many Bashkirs and Tatars are monolingual in Russian (as are many Kazakhs). They also have some significant Russian descent. By the logic of those who deem Balkan peoples to be Slavs, would this make them a third branch of the Slavic people, alongside Balkanoids and what I would refer to as actual Slavs?

    • Replies: @melanf
    @AP


    Good point, although the chart lists Tatars alongside Bashkirs who are pretty dark:
     
    Bashkirs are much more dark-haired than Kazan Tatars, but probably in the list meant Nogai Tatars or Siberian Tatars. These Tatars are as dark as the Bashkirs. But Bashkirs are also a mixed ethnic group, some have blond hair.

    http://addnrb.ru/images/cms/thumbs/c397538ffd4347789d38143791d89bac5e1f5050/087c0a1a6e49b14fb7d15f1728101839_706_auto_5_80.jpg

    https://i.pinimg.com/736x/6f/86/3e/6f863e86f69d9b91ad08d6f5f880804b.jpg
  727. Please define the differences between “Balkan peoples” and “Balkanoids”?

  728. @Dmitry
    @RadicalCenter

    Sure, much of the appearance same as any Northern European races - but territory of Ukraine includes a wide mix of different races, and territory of different nations.

    If you look at the youth of Chernovtsy today. In such a city, there can be people as dark as Italians or the Balkan races.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7NIsKHKRIw

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    You’re definitely on to something here. There are definitely a lot of darker skinned and darker haired people in Bukovina. I used to think that this was due to a lot of intermarriage between the Romanians in the southern part and the Ukrainians in the north. However, I’m also beginning to think that both modern nationalities (at least in this region) originally derived from Slavs (Antes and Sclavenes) that
    were to be found in this area in the early centuries of the common era. This book is opening my eyes up to a lot of possibilities: “The Making of the Slavs: History and Archaeology of the Lower Danube Region c 500 – 700” by Florin Curta.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Mr. Hack

    https://cdn.photoholding.com/RBalancerWeb/SquidStyleBalancer/db3b0dd75c704136a20380b1ef4ae571/i1000/0

    Kind of light to kind of dark? Ukrainian ladies in Chernivtsy.

  729. @Mr. Hack
    @Dmitry

    You're definitely on to something here. There are definitely a lot of darker skinned and darker haired people in Bukovina. I used to think that this was due to a lot of intermarriage between the Romanians in the southern part and the Ukrainians in the north. However, I'm also beginning to think that both modern nationalities (at least in this region) originally derived from Slavs (Antes and Sclavenes) that
    were to be found in this area in the early centuries of the common era. This book is opening my eyes up to a lot of possibilities: "The Making of the Slavs: History and Archaeology of the Lower Danube Region c 500 - 700" by Florin Curta.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  730. @Dmitry
    @AnonFromTN

    Poland has a relatively high state capacity, and it has made the visa situation quite strict for Ukrainians.

    So as I heard, a lot have to return to Ukraine after they complete their academic studies or work permit.

    Ukraine is still far from being part of the EU.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

    Yes, Poland tries hard to prevent Ukrainians from overstaying their student visas. But considering that they have millions of Ukrainians working illegally, this is about as pointless as tougher new US visa rules at the time when millions of Latinos cross Southern border illegally. I know (via Skype) only one Ukrainian who got Polish student visa, but he was smart enough to get a fake document attesting to his Polish ancestry, so he hopes to get the Polish card (карта поляка) and never return. Nowadays you can buy “proof” of your Polish ancestry in Ukraine, various fraudsters charge from $2,000 to $10,000 for it (depending on client stupidity and their arrogance). My point is, by hook or by crook, Ukrainians will try to remain in Poland, as their country is not fit for human living. Considering that Poles run to the Western Europe in droves, snatching low-level jobs, this tells you a lot about Ukraine.

    As to Ukraine joining the EU, this is best described by a recent joke:
    – When Ukraine will join the EU?
    – Right after Turkey.
    – And when Turkey will join the EU?
    – Never.

    • Replies: @AP
    @AnonFromTN


    considering that they have millions of Ukrainians working illegally
     
    Usual nonsense. Ukrainians do not need visas to work for up to 6 months in Poland; those millions of Ukrainians working in Poland do so legally. You should know what you are writing about without spreading nonsense.

    In addition, longer work permits are easy to get; a few 100,000s of Ukrainians have them in Poland. One of my friends owns a rental apartment in Warsaw; the real estate agent who manages this is a Ukrainian from Lviv. There are now cops in Poland who are from Ukraine.

    My point is, by hook or by crook, Ukrainians will try to remain in Poland
     
    More nonsense. Most work there legally temporarily, and come back. Since Polish wages are 4 times those of Ukraine, a lot of people will work for 6 months, come home for six months, and go back. Some only go once. One of my cousins (from Poltava oblast, where the economy has gotten worse) went to Poland for about 6 months, after his bride became pregnant. He returned with nice savings (nearly 2 years Ukrainian wages) for the new family, but does not plan to be away from them again.

    Ukrainians will try to remain in Poland, as their country is not fit for human living.
     
    Lviv is more pleasant than is your Nashville (I have visited both).

    Here is Ukraine, which in Anon in TN's twisted world is "not fit for human living":

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDWAobR8U0c&t=3006s

    Replies: @Dmitry

    , @Dmitry
    @AnonFromTN

    What I heard is that it is very difficult to stay in Poland after the expiration of the student visa.

    Poland is apparently quite strict to enforcing this. So they have vast numbers of Ukrainians coming, but they are sending them home after the expiration of the visa.

    I talked recently to a Ukrainian student, attached to a university in Poland.

    The working visa to stay in Poland after the end of the university studies, would apparently be more difficult than to apply for a visa in Western Europe. So they view Western Europe as the long-term plan, if they can attain sufficient qualifications for the jobs.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

  731. My point is, by hook or by crook, Ukrainians will try to remain in Poland, as their country is not fit for human living. Considering that Poles run to the Western Europe in droves, snatching low-level jobs, this tells you a lot about Ukraine.

    Actually, it speaks more to what an egotistical little prick you are. In reality, most Ukrainians in Poland make a few bucks and then return home to spend it with their families.

    You are really the scummiest “Ukrainian” that I have ever run into. Instead of offering ideas that might help the country of your birth, you continually try to denigrate it. You’re such a sleezy janissar, I hope that I never run into you in the flesh. There’s actually a psychotic term for people that loathe their own nationality, but I forget what it’s scientifically called – I just call it janissarism.

    Your stink is getting unbearable!

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    @Mr. Hack

    John Derbyshire coined the term "ethnomasochism".

    And I always thought that AnonFromTN was Russian?

    Replies: @AnonFromTN, @Mr. Hack

    , @Gerard1234
    @Mr. Hack


    Actually, it speaks more to what an egotistical little prick you are. In reality, most Ukrainians in Poland make a few bucks and then return home to spend it with their families.
     
    Not true at all. And it is the same thing as described perfectly by AnonfromTN happening with "Ukrainians" in Germany,Czech Republic, Italy, Slovakia, even Estonia......where the dickhead Head of Interior Ministry made comments confirming this as happening there . I know several Ukrainians who have done just that and overstayed - part of it as a non-offensive to Russia ideology that looks at the EU as a "promised land" and an even bigger part of that is simple desperation .

    Instead of offering ideas that might help the country of your birth, you continually try to denigrate it
     
    1. WTF, the only thing you OUN scoundrels offer is literally fucking up the country by advising the fastest economically growing country in Europe at the time in 2004, as Ukraine was ( offspring from Russia's economic lift-off) to change it's trajectory at this critical time... in order to go for the pseudo-democratic Orange Movement that brought in the useless idiot Yushchenko in power ( married to, a pseudo"Ukrainian" American OUN-Nazi bitch who worked for the state department!)

    2. Effectively advocate ( again from 1000s of km away) cultural and even literal genocide of the nation - basing it on the sick ideas from a small part of the country that isn't even part of the historical , fake Ukraine.

    3.Literally invest nothing in the country , except for Gay Parades and "completely innappropriate time to wear" Vishivanks contests

    4.don't actually argue or promote anything for Ukraine, but for Anti-Russiastan....... argue for anti-Russia policies, that leave Ukraine as a prostitute antiRussiastan. That inevitably exposes how you north American Ukrops see your nationality and culture as made-up. Hence why we have absurd situations where Banderastan is made to give up and hemorrhage money from trade deals , resources and investment from Russia, make it very hard for them to connect with their families.........but stick to this lunatic Anti-Russia policy of sabotaging NorthStream1/SS2 in order for Ukropia to be a gas transit country earning far less from these fees than from the money they have just thrown away due to idiotic west "advice"

    5. Export to Ukraine only deranged OUN-Nazi lunatics like Ulyana Suprun - probably the worst Health Minister in any country that has ever existed. Majority of these North American morons then run back to North America soon after - their "patriotism" not so apparent.

    AnonFrom TN is a true patriot. It's obvious that what he advices - a path in unison with Russia -would have inevitably made Ukropia immeasurably better in the last 15 years than this disaster it has beem

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  732. @Thorfinnsson
    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EExwXIEXYAAFUZa.jpg

    It appears AP may be onto something.

    More investigation is required.

    Replies: @Simpleguest

    “It appears AP may be onto something.
    More investigation is required.”

    Agree.
    He is on something, definitely.
    My take is bath salts.
    Mandatory examination is recommended.

    • LOL: Mikhail
    • Replies: @AP
    @Simpleguest

    PISA scores 2015:

    https://www.unz.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/PISA-2015-by-Steve-Sailer.png

    White Americans 519
    Russia 492

    Bulgaria 440
    Romania 437
    Black Americans 432
    Moldova 421
    Montenegro 419
    Albania 415
    Macedonia 369

    Replies: @Simpleguest

  733. @Mr. Hack

    My point is, by hook or by crook, Ukrainians will try to remain in Poland, as their country is not fit for human living. Considering that Poles run to the Western Europe in droves, snatching low-level jobs, this tells you a lot about Ukraine.
     
    Actually, it speaks more to what an egotistical little prick you are. In reality, most Ukrainians in Poland make a few bucks and then return home to spend it with their families.

    You are really the scummiest "Ukrainian" that I have ever run into. Instead of offering ideas that might help the country of your birth, you continually try to denigrate it. You're such a sleezy janissar, I hope that I never run into you in the flesh. There's actually a psychotic term for people that loathe their own nationality, but I forget what it's scientifically called - I just call it janissarism.

    Your stink is getting unbearable!

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @Gerard1234

    John Derbyshire coined the term “ethnomasochism”.

    And I always thought that AnonFromTN was Russian?

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    @Thorfinnsson

    A Ukrainian prays to God:
    - God, why did you make the world so unfair? Russians have oil, natural gas, gold, diamonds, great writers, poets, composers, painters, while we have nothing?
    - But you had all these things.
    - When?
    - When you were a Russian.

    , @Mr. Hack
    @Thorfinnsson

    He's a typical soviet style vatnik. Even his jokes are all from a bygone era. I'd hate to see his wardrobe, probably something very, very "wild and crazy" circa 1970:

    https://youtu.be/dpFNC7puU2M

  734. @Thorfinnsson
    @Mr. Hack

    John Derbyshire coined the term "ethnomasochism".

    And I always thought that AnonFromTN was Russian?

    Replies: @AnonFromTN, @Mr. Hack

    A Ukrainian prays to God:
    – God, why did you make the world so unfair? Russians have oil, natural gas, gold, diamonds, great writers, poets, composers, painters, while we have nothing?
    – But you had all these things.
    – When?
    – When you were a Russian.

  735. @Thorfinnsson
    @Mr. Hack

    John Derbyshire coined the term "ethnomasochism".

    And I always thought that AnonFromTN was Russian?

    Replies: @AnonFromTN, @Mr. Hack

    He’s a typical soviet style vatnik. Even his jokes are all from a bygone era. I’d hate to see his wardrobe, probably something very, very “wild and crazy” circa 1970:

  736. @AP
    @melanf

    Good point, although the chart lists Tatars alongside Bashkirs who are pretty dark:

    http://i.imgur.com/rqEthUW.png

    https://2.ruble.tech/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/9b1198d0914ed9e69adc88b2fd00d54c--face-reference-female-faces-720x922.jpg

    ::::::::::::::

    Speaking of which (and to circle back to an earlier topic here), many Bashkirs and Tatars are monolingual in Russian (as are many Kazakhs). They also have some significant Russian descent. By the logic of those who deem Balkan peoples to be Slavs, would this make them a third branch of the Slavic people, alongside Balkanoids and what I would refer to as actual Slavs?

    Replies: @melanf

    Good point, although the chart lists Tatars alongside Bashkirs who are pretty dark:

    Bashkirs are much more dark-haired than Kazan Tatars, but probably in the list meant Nogai Tatars or Siberian Tatars. These Tatars are as dark as the Bashkirs. But Bashkirs are also a mixed ethnic group, some have blond hair.

  737. @AP
    @Beckow


    Swiss are generally quite slow-witted, that’s something even they admit.
     
    That's because they are modest.

    https://isteve.blogspot.com/2013/12/overall-pisa-rankings-include-america.html

    PISA scores, Mean

    Finland 529
    Netherlands 519
    Switzerland 518
    Germany 515
    Czech Republic 500
    Denmark 498
    Spain 490
    Hungary 487

    Slovakia 472
    American Latinos 465


    Slovaks way closer to US Latinos than they are to the Swiss. Or to the Hungarians.

    Replies: @Beckow

    I can assure you that we can piss with the best of them. And our women are a lot better looking than the average pear-shaped Swiss maiden.

    You used to claim loudly that Latina chicanas beat us in math, what’s with that? Looks like you were making it up. And I was just embarking on a chica hunting trip to improve my evolutionary odds. What am I supposed to do now? Finland? you can’t be serious, that uber-white stuff doesn’t age well, and they relax in an actual oven. Weird stuff.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Beckow


    You used to claim loudly that Latina chicanas beat us in math, what’s with that?
     
    It depends on the year. In 2012 Slovaks could do math better than US Latinos but couldn't read as well as could US Latinos. Also you were the one claiming math overall and over again and I agreed. Perhaps you were wrong as you usually are.

    In 2015 Slovakia had a worse overall PISA score than did US Latinos:

    https://www.unz.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/PISA-2015-by-Steve-Sailer.png

    Reading was a lot worse, but math was slightly better (470 for US Latinos, 475 for Slovaks - congratulations).

    I imagine the Cubans brought the Latino scores up a little, and that perhaps Slovaks on average are a little smarter than Mexican-Americans on average.

    And of course Slovaks do not come even close to the Swiss, whom you accused of being "quite slow-witted."

    Replies: @Beckow

  738. @AnonFromTN
    @Dmitry

    Yes, Poland tries hard to prevent Ukrainians from overstaying their student visas. But considering that they have millions of Ukrainians working illegally, this is about as pointless as tougher new US visa rules at the time when millions of Latinos cross Southern border illegally. I know (via Skype) only one Ukrainian who got Polish student visa, but he was smart enough to get a fake document attesting to his Polish ancestry, so he hopes to get the Polish card (карта поляка) and never return. Nowadays you can buy “proof” of your Polish ancestry in Ukraine, various fraudsters charge from $2,000 to $10,000 for it (depending on client stupidity and their arrogance). My point is, by hook or by crook, Ukrainians will try to remain in Poland, as their country is not fit for human living. Considering that Poles run to the Western Europe in droves, snatching low-level jobs, this tells you a lot about Ukraine.

    As to Ukraine joining the EU, this is best described by a recent joke:
    - When Ukraine will join the EU?
    - Right after Turkey.
    - And when Turkey will join the EU?
    - Never.

    Replies: @AP, @Dmitry

    considering that they have millions of Ukrainians working illegally

    Usual nonsense. Ukrainians do not need visas to work for up to 6 months in Poland; those millions of Ukrainians working in Poland do so legally. You should know what you are writing about without spreading nonsense.

    In addition, longer work permits are easy to get; a few 100,000s of Ukrainians have them in Poland. One of my friends owns a rental apartment in Warsaw; the real estate agent who manages this is a Ukrainian from Lviv. There are now cops in Poland who are from Ukraine.

    My point is, by hook or by crook, Ukrainians will try to remain in Poland

    More nonsense. Most work there legally temporarily, and come back. Since Polish wages are 4 times those of Ukraine, a lot of people will work for 6 months, come home for six months, and go back. Some only go once. One of my cousins (from Poltava oblast, where the economy has gotten worse) went to Poland for about 6 months, after his bride became pregnant. He returned with nice savings (nearly 2 years Ukrainian wages) for the new family, but does not plan to be away from them again.

    Ukrainians will try to remain in Poland, as their country is not fit for human living.

    Lviv is more pleasant than is your Nashville (I have visited both).

    Here is Ukraine, which in Anon in TN’s twisted world is “not fit for human living”:

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @AP

    Beauty of architecture in Lvov, is irrelevant to the fact most young people cannot ever have even close to a normal salary in Ukraine, even adjusted to cost of living.

    It's the same situation for most young people in Russia outside a few cities and professions, but for Ukraine it's even worse (which can give you some perspective).

    -

    Every Pole I know - has said life in Poland is "impossible" because of the low salaries in Poland.

    And yet, Poland is considered a high salary paradise for the young people in Ukraine.

    Replies: @AP

  739. @Beckow
    @AP

    I can assure you that we can piss with the best of them. And our women are a lot better looking than the average pear-shaped Swiss maiden.

    You used to claim loudly that Latina chicanas beat us in math, what's with that? Looks like you were making it up. And I was just embarking on a chica hunting trip to improve my evolutionary odds. What am I supposed to do now? Finland? you can't be serious, that uber-white stuff doesn't age well, and they relax in an actual oven. Weird stuff.

    Replies: @AP

    You used to claim loudly that Latina chicanas beat us in math, what’s with that?

    It depends on the year. In 2012 Slovaks could do math better than US Latinos but couldn’t read as well as could US Latinos. Also you were the one claiming math overall and over again and I agreed. Perhaps you were wrong as you usually are.

    In 2015 Slovakia had a worse overall PISA score than did US Latinos:

    Reading was a lot worse, but math was slightly better (470 for US Latinos, 475 for Slovaks – congratulations).

    I imagine the Cubans brought the Latino scores up a little, and that perhaps Slovaks on average are a little smarter than Mexican-Americans on average.

    And of course Slovaks do not come even close to the Swiss, whom you accused of being “quite slow-witted.”

    • Replies: @Beckow
    @AP

    Reading, my friend, is for wimps. We throw those exams on purpose.

    What I hear you say is that I should try the Cubana version of the high-scoring Pissa chicas. Thanks, I will try. But could they grow a bit taller? It is a real struggle with the squat, brownish mamas to even find a common level where one could engage. Maybe more meat in their diet? But it is all made up by their superior math skills...next they should work on the plumbing (and I mean the whole high-scoring continent.)

    It is also comforting to know that the 'hood brothers outscore Albanians. But then who doesn't? Is that even something to boast about?

  740. @Simpleguest
    @Thorfinnsson

    "It appears AP may be onto something.
    More investigation is required."

    Agree.
    He is on something, definitely.
    My take is bath salts.
    Mandatory examination is recommended.

    Replies: @AP

    PISA scores 2015:

    White Americans 519
    Russia 492

    Bulgaria 440
    Romania 437
    Black Americans 432
    Moldova 421
    Montenegro 419
    Albania 415
    Macedonia 369

    • Replies: @Simpleguest
    @AP

    "Black Americans 432"


    Black Americans 432
    APes 32

    For those not familiar, an APe is a peculiar life form that resembles humans in its physical appearance but has the intelligence and worldview of a tree stub.

    Replies: @AP

  741. @AP
    @Beckow


    You used to claim loudly that Latina chicanas beat us in math, what’s with that?
     
    It depends on the year. In 2012 Slovaks could do math better than US Latinos but couldn't read as well as could US Latinos. Also you were the one claiming math overall and over again and I agreed. Perhaps you were wrong as you usually are.

    In 2015 Slovakia had a worse overall PISA score than did US Latinos:

    https://www.unz.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/PISA-2015-by-Steve-Sailer.png

    Reading was a lot worse, but math was slightly better (470 for US Latinos, 475 for Slovaks - congratulations).

    I imagine the Cubans brought the Latino scores up a little, and that perhaps Slovaks on average are a little smarter than Mexican-Americans on average.

    And of course Slovaks do not come even close to the Swiss, whom you accused of being "quite slow-witted."

    Replies: @Beckow

    Reading, my friend, is for wimps. We throw those exams on purpose.

    What I hear you say is that I should try the Cubana version of the high-scoring Pissa chicas. Thanks, I will try. But could they grow a bit taller? It is a real struggle with the squat, brownish mamas to even find a common level where one could engage. Maybe more meat in their diet? But it is all made up by their superior math skills…next they should work on the plumbing (and I mean the whole high-scoring continent.)

    It is also comforting to know that the ‘hood brothers outscore Albanians. But then who doesn’t? Is that even something to boast about?

  742. Gerard1234 [AKA "Gerard2"] says:
    @Mr. Hack

    My point is, by hook or by crook, Ukrainians will try to remain in Poland, as their country is not fit for human living. Considering that Poles run to the Western Europe in droves, snatching low-level jobs, this tells you a lot about Ukraine.
     
    Actually, it speaks more to what an egotistical little prick you are. In reality, most Ukrainians in Poland make a few bucks and then return home to spend it with their families.

    You are really the scummiest "Ukrainian" that I have ever run into. Instead of offering ideas that might help the country of your birth, you continually try to denigrate it. You're such a sleezy janissar, I hope that I never run into you in the flesh. There's actually a psychotic term for people that loathe their own nationality, but I forget what it's scientifically called - I just call it janissarism.

    Your stink is getting unbearable!

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @Gerard1234

    Actually, it speaks more to what an egotistical little prick you are. In reality, most Ukrainians in Poland make a few bucks and then return home to spend it with their families.

    Not true at all. And it is the same thing as described perfectly by AnonfromTN happening with “Ukrainians” in Germany,Czech Republic, Italy, Slovakia, even Estonia……where the dickhead Head of Interior Ministry made comments confirming this as happening there . I know several Ukrainians who have done just that and overstayed – part of it as a non-offensive to Russia ideology that looks at the EU as a “promised land” and an even bigger part of that is simple desperation .

    Instead of offering ideas that might help the country of your birth, you continually try to denigrate it

    1. WTF, the only thing you OUN scoundrels offer is literally fucking up the country by advising the fastest economically growing country in Europe at the time in 2004, as Ukraine was ( offspring from Russia’s economic lift-off) to change it’s trajectory at this critical time… in order to go for the pseudo-democratic Orange Movement that brought in the useless idiot Yushchenko in power ( married to, a pseudo”Ukrainian” American OUN-Nazi bitch who worked for the state department!)

    2. Effectively advocate ( again from 1000s of km away) cultural and even literal genocide of the nation – basing it on the sick ideas from a small part of the country that isn’t even part of the historical , fake Ukraine.

    3.Literally invest nothing in the country , except for Gay Parades and “completely innappropriate time to wear” Vishivanks contests

    4.don’t actually argue or promote anything for Ukraine, but for Anti-Russiastan……. argue for anti-Russia policies, that leave Ukraine as a prostitute antiRussiastan. That inevitably exposes how you north American Ukrops see your nationality and culture as made-up. Hence why we have absurd situations where Banderastan is made to give up and hemorrhage money from trade deals , resources and investment from Russia, make it very hard for them to connect with their families………but stick to this lunatic Anti-Russia policy of sabotaging NorthStream1/SS2 in order for Ukropia to be a gas transit country earning far less from these fees than from the money they have just thrown away due to idiotic west “advice”

    5. Export to Ukraine only deranged OUN-Nazi lunatics like Ulyana Suprun – probably the worst Health Minister in any country that has ever existed. Majority of these North American morons then run back to North America soon after – their “patriotism” not so apparent.

    AnonFrom TN is a true patriot. It’s obvious that what he advices – a path in unison with Russia -would have inevitably made Ukropia immeasurably better in the last 15 years than this disaster it has beem

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Gerard1234

    Ukrainians have always wanted their own separate state to separate themselves from you finno-ugric mongols of the north. You guys are like the mentally retarded relation that everybody tries to hide up in the attic. Do you even realize how stupid you sound? How many countries today in the world have placed sanctions on your country?

    Replies: @Mikhail

  743. Gerard1234 [AKA "Gerard2"] says:
    @AP
    @anonymous coward

    Thanks for again demonstrating yourself being wrong as usual.


    Kotlyarevski published in St. Petersburg, not in Kiev. His target audience was educated Russian speakers, not “Little Russian” swineherders.
     
    While it was indeed published in St. Petersburg (this is perhaps the first correct thing you have written or thought in three months), Eneida was first published by another Ukrainian, who was living there, Maxym Parpura:

    https://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/Парпура_Максим_Йосипович

    His target audience was the many Ukrainains who were living in St. Petersburg and occupied a lot of administrative posts.

    The problem with your fake claim that it was written in the Russian language is that it is available online:

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/38/Eneida_Osipov_Kotlayrevsky.jpg

    Left page Russian, right page Little Russian/Ukrainian. It's as close to modern Ukrainian as late 18th century English is to modern English.


    What you call the “Ukrainian language” is a fake and gay invented language like Esperanto, created in the 20th century.
     
    As we can see above, there is an example from the 1790s. Earlier examples occur in the early 1600s.

    Russian, loaded up with Church Slavonic and French words, is far more artificial and invented than is Ukrainian. I already made this point before, you are not only wrong but unoriginal. From another anon poster:

    "...modern Russian, from the historic perspective, is a very young and largely artificially created language, a sort of Esperanto; and it hasn’t had enough time, unlike Ukrainian, to develop the variety of linguistic forms and shortcuts that emerge only when a language is used naturally and for a long period of time by common people communicating with one another daily , rather than via being concocted in an ivory tower. As a result, there’re thousands of Ukrainian shortcut adverbs (e.g.: торік, чимдуж, etc.) that can be expressed in Russian only by using a combination of three separate words. Likewise, Ukrainian has three single-word superlative degrees, while Russian has only one…Ukrainian has single-word forms of Future Imperfect (e.g. матиму, матимемо, матимеш, матиме, матимуть) completely absent from Russian. Ukrainian has the Plus Quam Perfectum tense (e.g. він почав був читати, та його зупинили); Russian doesn’t. And the list goes on and on.

    Another example: “the single-word Future Imperfect (майбутній час недоконаного виду) that is absent from Russian where it can be formed only with the Future form of the auxiliary verb “to be”. E.g. “We will live” in Russian can be formed only as “Мы будем жить”, whereas in Ukrainian, both as “Ми житимемо” (one word for “will live”) and “Ми будемо жити” (“to be” in the Future + Infinitive). Another tense Russian doesn’t have is Plus Quam Perfectum (Past Perfect in English) called in Ukrainian “давноминулий час” and indicating an action finished before some moment in the past, e.g. “Я був читав”.

    While in U, all of the above forms were present in common everyday speech in the 1700′s (that’s the speech and vocabulary Kotliarevsky used to write “The Aeneid” published in 1798), R at the time was a mere rudiment of what it has become after Pushkin and is today."


    P.S. Kotlyarevsky’s “Aeneid” is incredibly crass, even by modern debased standards.
     
    Mozart:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leck_mich_im_Arsch

    "Leck mich im Arsch" (literally "Lick me in the arse") is a canon in B-flat major composed by Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, K. 231 (K. 382c), with lyrics in German. It was one of a set of at least six canons probably written in Vienna in 1782

    And you must hate Chaucer then:

    The Miller's Tale, by Geoffrey Chaucer

    This Absolon gan wype his mouth ful drie.
    Derk was the nyght as pich, or as a cole
    An at the wyndow out she putte her hole,
    and Ansolon, hym fil no bet ne wers
    But with his mouth he kiste hir naked ers
    Ful savorly, er he were war of this.
    Aback he stirte and thoghte it was amys,
    For wel he wiste a womman hath no berd,
    He felte a thyng al rough and long yherd,
    And seyde, "Fy! Allas! what have I to do?"

    Translation into modern English:

    Absolon wiped his mouth dry.
    The night was as dark as pitch, or as coal,
    And out the window she stuck her hole,
    And Absolon it befell no better or worse,
    But with his mouth he kissed her naked arse,
    Savoring it before he knew what it was.
    Back he jumped and thought it was strange,
    For well he knew a woman has no beard.
    He felt a thing all rough and long haired
    And said, "Fie! Alas! what have I done?"

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Gerard1234

    Mozart:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leck_mich_im_Arsch

    “Leck mich im Arsch” (literally “Lick me in the arse”) is a canon in B-flat major composed by Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, K. 231 (K. 382c), with lyrics in German. It was one of a set of at least six canons probably written in Vienna in 1782

    And you must hate Chaucer then:

    The Miller’s Tale, by Geoffrey Chaucer

    LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL! So you are that thick you are literally comparing a TITLE from a piece of MUSIC by a young musical prodigy genius…..and EIGHT LINES from a great writer, Chaucer ,on an everyday topic ( village life), that would frequently for the time have erotika written into it……..

    ……….with the FIRST CIRCULATED ‘UKRAINIAN’ LITERATURE in history that somehow was chosen to go down the lowest common denominator route of witless smut and toilet humour – and to make maatters worse has chosen as it’s target probably the biggest topic in history that has been the subject of high culture – (classical greek gods/mythology) that has been used as the subject for high cultural paintings, poetry, statues, plays, music and so !!!!

    It is exactly what Anonymous Coward has been saying about the fakeness of the language ( and the fact that it was published in Russia, in Russian makes your idiocy even worse)

    You couldn’t make this retarded sh*t up!In making up a lie you choose something from the lowest common denominator that could never be the “first example” of any culture in anything if the culture/language was in any way real!)

    • Replies: @AP
    @Gerard1234

    Sovok "engineer" can't add but has "opinions" about literature and music.

    Remind me again how much poorer you Sovoks are, than Ukrainians in America or Canada?

  744. Gerard1234 [AKA "Gerard2"] says:

    subject of high culture – (classical greek gods/mythology) that has been used as the subject for high cultural paintings, poetry, statues, plays, music and so !!!!

    ..and so on, throughout the last millennium.

    It is lower culture than selling outside the Cathedral, dildo versions of the spires of the Sagrada Familia.

  745. @Gerard1234
    @AP


    Mozart:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leck_mich_im_Arsch

    “Leck mich im Arsch” (literally “Lick me in the arse”) is a canon in B-flat major composed by Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, K. 231 (K. 382c), with lyrics in German. It was one of a set of at least six canons probably written in Vienna in 1782

    And you must hate Chaucer then:

    The Miller’s Tale, by Geoffrey Chaucer
     

    LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL! So you are that thick you are literally comparing a TITLE from a piece of MUSIC by a young musical prodigy genius.....and EIGHT LINES from a great writer, Chaucer ,on an everyday topic ( village life), that would frequently for the time have erotika written into it........

    ..........with the FIRST CIRCULATED 'UKRAINIAN' LITERATURE in history that somehow was chosen to go down the lowest common denominator route of witless smut and toilet humour - and to make maatters worse has chosen as it's target probably the biggest topic in history that has been the subject of high culture - (classical greek gods/mythology) that has been used as the subject for high cultural paintings, poetry, statues, plays, music and so !!!!

    It is exactly what Anonymous Coward has been saying about the fakeness of the language ( and the fact that it was published in Russia, in Russian makes your idiocy even worse)

    You couldn't make this retarded sh*t up!In making up a lie you choose something from the lowest common denominator that could never be the "first example" of any culture in anything if the culture/language was in any way real!)

    Replies: @AP

    Sovok “engineer” can’t add but has “opinions” about literature and music.

    Remind me again how much poorer you Sovoks are, than Ukrainians in America or Canada?

  746. @melanf
    @reiner Tor


    Siberia was easy to conquer, because it wasn’t densely populated, and its population was quite backwards anyway. But first you needed firearms to defeat the nomads who blocked your access to Siberia. It helped a great deal that the nomads’ empire was in the disintegrating phase, but their decisive military advantage was destroyed by firearms.
     
    What's the argument about? If the Swiss lived on the site of the ancient Russian principalities, they would not be Swiss but someone else. Russians, if they lived in the Alps, would not be Russians (but rather something like Czechs)

    It is pointless to argue about the conquest of Siberia - the Moscow Principality/Russian Tsardom needed to defeat much more powerful opponents in the West in order to expand to the East. And the conquest itself was not an obvious phenomenon - for example, the Japanese did not conquer Siberia, although they had firearms and geographical access.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    The point was that the commenter Simpleguest argued that Russia being big was a virtue.

    It was mostly due to Russia’s location next to nearly uninhabited areas. Those areas posed a huge danger before the advent of firearms, but not so much afterwards.

    Regarding Japan, being an island nation, they were certainly more isolated from those areas than Russia. Anyway, I’m not saying Russia had zero merits in conquering those areas: they needed to get their shit together, unify, and be adventurous enough to even try. For example Poland could’ve colonized Siberia if it was under a strong central government, but after the 16th century its government was in such disarray that it would’ve been unable to do so even if it was located in Russia’s place. The Anglos, having colonized entire continents, would certainly have been able to colonize Siberia. The French would’ve colonized places like North America (only managed Quebec because of the intense competition from the Anglos), but they conquered much of Africa and a few similar places. (Those were, unfortunately for the French, relatively densely populated.) The Spaniards and Portuguese colonized a huge continent an ocean away all by themselves, so it’s unlikely they wouldn’t have done the same to Siberia, had they been next to it. The Germans, with their Drang nach Osten, managed to pushed their borders significantly to the east against densely populated and relatively developed European countries, despite being internally balkanized. Even the Italians built a small colonial empire for themselves, once they unified.

    So it’s unlikely that Russia’s eastern conquest (upon which Russia’s greatness lies) would not have been replicated by any other European peoples. It was a mixed blessing to live in Eastern Europe (the Mongol conquest happened because of this), but after the advent of firearms, the steppe peoples posed no longer a serious danger, but presented an opportunity of conquest.

    Russians, if they lived in the Alps, would not be Russians (but rather something like Czechs)

    I agree about this point. As I said, my point was not that Russians are or were especially bad or anything like that. Just simply that them being big was not a virtue (it was more due to a mix of circumstances and Russians being Europeans, the latter of which is not a virtue relative to other Europeans).

  747. @Dmitry
    @reiner Tor

    It is reported that Japanese have extremely high working hours, but not high productivity during those hours. Maybe the Japanese boss goes home early, but the Japanese salaryman can often likes to work in the office until 11pm or even 1am.

    Personally, I am similar, and sometimes work in the office until 3am. But this is only because I like to waste so much time during the day relaxing or watching YouTube videos or "having a break" for every hour I work.

    I don't understand economists' emphasis on productivity per hour. Because a lot of people like to have low productivity per hour, but simply to "work" for more hours (low productivity per hour can be basically just a way of diluting the intensity of the work and making it more relaxing, less stressful).

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    Once you had a family, you’d understand why it’s especially bad to spend very long hours in the office.

    I’d also mention that it prohibits your healthy socialization (since you have already written you were totally not on the autism spectrum, an information I totally trust, it’s something you would easily understand), and makes it very difficult for you to get involved in a number of healthy or otherwise positive activities (spending a lot of time outdoors, doing sports, reading books, etc.), so it’s not very healthy. Being forced into it (like the Japanese) means that people who would actually prefer to do all those things (family, socializing with other people, being outdoors, doing sports, reading books, whatever) are forced to reduce themselves to watching YouTube videos and playing video games in the office. Pretty bad for all those people.

    • LOL: Kent Nationalist
    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @reiner Tor

    I don't know about other jobs, but some parts of my job are difficult, and it requires that you need to "dilute" the working time.

    If you tried to do the more difficult parts for 4 hours without a break, it will be painful (depending on your personality).

    On the other hand, if you spread the same tasks over 16 hours, and mix it with anything else you want - then it can be pleasant, or at least not painful.

    You might say you were working 80 hours a week - but actually maybe 5 hours a day, just diluted with a lot of distractions.


    healthy or otherwise positive activities (spending a lot of time outdoors, doing sports, reading books,

     

    All this stuff, is part of how we dilute time during the day, at least in my case.

    In terms of reading, office environment improves this. As it becomes a bit public, there is a motive to read more intelligent looking books to improve your reputation.

    Even for pure distraction (unrelated to work) I am reading books by authors like Quine, and finishing these books, which I would not be able to do if I was in a different environment.

    However, internet based distractions like watching YouTube, are better if you want to a 30 minute break, instead of a 2 hour one, and don't want to forget where you are in your task.

    We have a budget where we can hire things like language classes, or even art classes (which they set up in our actual office), if we want - but the problem is when we tried this, then people usually do not go to that kind of class regularly as their schedule for the day is changing too much from week to week.


    Pretty bad for all those people.

     

    It's quite unrealistic to desire differently.

    This dilution is common for many jobs .

    What do you think it is like to be an emergency doctor? Most of the hours are not saving lives, but waiting for the next case.

    Or for airplane pilot? Most of the hours are not flying the plane, but staying in the hotel waiting to fly back.

    If you want to work short hours, in a solid and intense bloc, then it will remove quite a lot of job options (including jobs where the work is too intense to not take breaks).

  748. @Beckow
    @reiner Tor

    Ever since the esteemed Barack received a 'Nobel', I am a bit skeptical about the whole thing. I have visited the Nobel Museum and a more annoying self-congratulatory collection of mostly dreamy nonsense would be hard to find. Sorry, no points there.

    Swiss are generally quite slow-witted, that's something even they admit. Their organization is on the heavy side, too much intrusive stuff, too often. They are rich and peaceful, good for them. But there is a reason other countries have not been too successful copying the Swiss model - it is suited to the specific Swiss geography and took a few hundred years to develop. And then there are the Albanians, enough said...

    It is 250 km from Zurich to Geneva and it takes almost 3 hours by train. Driving not much better, traffic jams everywhere. There are no mountains or tunnels in that part of Switzerland - Swiss are not advanced or fast, just competent and honest in doing the basic mediocre stuff they do (I wish others would learn it too).

    Comparing everything to each other countries is a silly nihilistic argument - I prefer to look at it based on its merits, you can always find others doing stuff worse. In this case the fastest IC trains in Slovakia-Czechia happen to be faster than the Swiss ones. But they are often late. Maybe too ambitious?

    Replies: @AP, @reiner Tor

    Barack received a ‘Nobel’

    Nobel Peace Prize vs. Nobel Prize in Physics.

    Maybe too ambitious?

    There’s a case where being less ambitious was the smart thing in ww2. The Red Army in 1941-42 tried a number of elaborate offensive operations where they’d bypass German strong points and cut them off and let them get destroyed by lack of supplies. However, the more experienced and better trained Germans simply cut off the advancing Soviets from their strongpoints and destroyed the advancing Red Army units. There were several such disasters, even after 1942 (after 1943 less serious ones, but in 1943 the Third Battle of Kharkov is a famous example; though the Second Battle of Kharkov in spring and early summer 1942 was way worse), so the Soviets realized they were incapable of doing that against the better trained Germans.

    So instead the Soviets just attacked German strong points frontally. They also tried to attack the full length of the frontline (or at least many different points), even when they only had a realistic chance of success at one place. (To prevent the Germans from reinforcing their most threatened sectors.) This seemed to be a stupid thing to do and led to enormous casualties, but it made it possible to destroy those strongpoints (at the cost of enormous casualties, of course; and often even that wasn’t possible either, whenever the Germans were too strong or the Soviet attacks too inept). So using a less sophisticated and costly (but working) solution was what the Soviets did.

    However, it’s generally recognized that the German idea of bypassing strongpoints in a competent way and not letting those strongpoints do anything useful was superior to what the Soviets did. They just needed to have supreme competence all along the chain of command, something the Soviets lacked but the Germans didn’t.

    The high command was not stupid in either case (though arguably Germany shouldn’t have started the war at all, because Hitler set unwinnable goals which proved impossible to reach, but I’m talking about the operational level; on the top level, Stalin was more competent than Hitler, though he was also insane), but the German military was clearly superior in quality, because they could execute the more sophisticated thing.

    • Replies: @Beckow
    @reiner Tor


    ...Nobel Peace Prize vs. Nobel Prize in Physics
     
    Nobel Prize is a trademark. Yes, there are distinctions, but once they went with Obama, there is no way to get back the good name.

    German military was clearly superior in quality, because they could execute the more sophisticated thing.
     
    Results matter. I get an uncomfortable feeling that it is the result of WWII that you find distasteful, not the 'operational' details. And it wasn't 'Hitler' who set un-winnable goals, it was the whole country - they were in it all the way. So were many other Europeans, incl. some of our countrymen.

    The issue is not too much ambition, the issue is that this pattern seems to repeat itself again and again. Usually it is a disaster for all involved, Germans, Russians, French, Poles,... But the natural tendency is to over time slide again into the same loose-loose dilemma - talk tough, talk efficiency, call each other names, invent irreconcilable differences, and eventually start shooting. As if the large space itself was too gravitationally strong to resist another stupid adventure.

    This last time the plan was clearly to chop off the border-lands, arm them to the teeth, and then start squeezing. Now that's an ambition that can feed a proper think tank ego... Or maybe it was about the Erasmus University for freedom-loving Ukrainian youngsters, because we know that nothing motivates Western think-tankers as much as well being of Kiev kids.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

  749. @AnonFromTN
    @Blinky Bill

    Yea, the spirit is still there. Once in a century, Europe unites, makes war on Russia, gets beaten to pulp, and then slithers back into its hole and complains. Nineteenth century – Napoleon; twentieth century – Hitler, twenty first century - ?

    Replies: @Denis, @reiner Tor

    Once in a century, Europe unites, makes war on Russia, gets beaten to pulp

    That’s a pretty bad understanding of history. It’s based on two cases, neither of which represented Europe “uniting” in any real way. In both cases the Anglos actually supported Russia (so maybe an equal case could be made that “once in a century, Anglos and Russians unite against the dominant European power to destroy it”), while the forces joining the dominant power were unwilling and/or low quality. (For example under Napoleon many Prussians left their armed forces to avoid serving Napoleon – which is why 1812-13 saw a certain General Carl von Clausewitz in the service of the Russian Tsar. You can imagine the enthusiasm shown by such forces.)

    • Replies: @Kent Nationalist
    @reiner Tor


    while the forces joining the dominant power were unwilling and/or low quality. (For example under Napoleon many Prussians left their armed forces to avoid serving Napoleon – which is why 1812-13 saw a certain General Carl von Clausewitz in the service of the Russian Tsar. You can imagine the enthusiasm shown by such forces.)
     
    Did motivation make a big difference in 18th century style warfare? Frederick II's army was largely made up of scum kidnapped from the rest of Europe, yet they won plenty of battles.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    , @German_reader
    @reiner Tor


    That’s a pretty bad understanding of history.
     
    One reads that fairly often by Russians on Unz review (Martyanov just made the same argument a few days ago on some other thread), and I always wonder what it's supposed to be on. tbh at this point I believe it's the result of commie conditioning about the irredeemable hostility of the capitalist-imperialist world, with the explicitly socialist parts having faded away over the last 30 years. But it's a very selective reading of the historical record in any case.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

    , @AnonFromTN
    @reiner Tor

    Were Hitler’s forces also unenthusiastic? He had Waffen SS divisions from Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Ukraine, as well as volunteers from Poland, France, and Spain, to name just a few countries.

    You are right that wily UK always managed to be on the winning side, both times doing as little fighting as humanely possible. I wouldn’t be surprised if it repeats this fit in the 21st century.

  750. @AP
    @Simpleguest

    PISA scores 2015:

    https://www.unz.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/PISA-2015-by-Steve-Sailer.png

    White Americans 519
    Russia 492

    Bulgaria 440
    Romania 437
    Black Americans 432
    Moldova 421
    Montenegro 419
    Albania 415
    Macedonia 369

    Replies: @Simpleguest

    “Black Americans 432”

    Black Americans 432
    APes 32

    For those not familiar, an APe is a peculiar life form that resembles humans in its physical appearance but has the intelligence and worldview of a tree stub.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Simpleguest

    Someone is trying to shoot the messenger...

  751. @reiner Tor
    @AnonFromTN


    Once in a century, Europe unites, makes war on Russia, gets beaten to pulp
     
    That's a pretty bad understanding of history. It's based on two cases, neither of which represented Europe "uniting" in any real way. In both cases the Anglos actually supported Russia (so maybe an equal case could be made that "once in a century, Anglos and Russians unite against the dominant European power to destroy it"), while the forces joining the dominant power were unwilling and/or low quality. (For example under Napoleon many Prussians left their armed forces to avoid serving Napoleon - which is why 1812-13 saw a certain General Carl von Clausewitz in the service of the Russian Tsar. You can imagine the enthusiasm shown by such forces.)

    Replies: @Kent Nationalist, @German_reader, @AnonFromTN

    while the forces joining the dominant power were unwilling and/or low quality. (For example under Napoleon many Prussians left their armed forces to avoid serving Napoleon – which is why 1812-13 saw a certain General Carl von Clausewitz in the service of the Russian Tsar. You can imagine the enthusiasm shown by such forces.)

    Did motivation make a big difference in 18th century style warfare? Frederick II’s army was largely made up of scum kidnapped from the rest of Europe, yet they won plenty of battles.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @Kent Nationalist

    Motivation of the generals? Yes, it probably did play a role. And it was already the 19th century. I’d argue that motivation of the soldiers played a role, too. The Prussians just invented mission-oriented tactics, which requires the willingness of the soldiers, after all.

    But it mostly mattered after the campaign in Russia. Russians lost almost as many soldiers as the forces of Napoleon, but French losses only were probably significantly lower. So Napoleon would’ve been in a good position to continue the war, had there truly been a European unity. But Napoleon’s two biggest vassals, Prussia and the Habsburg Empire turned against Napoleon immediately. He might still have won at Leipzig against basically the combined might of continental Europe, had the Bavarians not switched sides just prior to the battle.

  752. @Kent Nationalist
    @reiner Tor


    while the forces joining the dominant power were unwilling and/or low quality. (For example under Napoleon many Prussians left their armed forces to avoid serving Napoleon – which is why 1812-13 saw a certain General Carl von Clausewitz in the service of the Russian Tsar. You can imagine the enthusiasm shown by such forces.)
     
    Did motivation make a big difference in 18th century style warfare? Frederick II's army was largely made up of scum kidnapped from the rest of Europe, yet they won plenty of battles.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    Motivation of the generals? Yes, it probably did play a role. And it was already the 19th century. I’d argue that motivation of the soldiers played a role, too. The Prussians just invented mission-oriented tactics, which requires the willingness of the soldiers, after all.

    But it mostly mattered after the campaign in Russia. Russians lost almost as many soldiers as the forces of Napoleon, but French losses only were probably significantly lower. So Napoleon would’ve been in a good position to continue the war, had there truly been a European unity. But Napoleon’s two biggest vassals, Prussia and the Habsburg Empire turned against Napoleon immediately. He might still have won at Leipzig against basically the combined might of continental Europe, had the Bavarians not switched sides just prior to the battle.

  753. @Simpleguest
    @AP

    "Black Americans 432"


    Black Americans 432
    APes 32

    For those not familiar, an APe is a peculiar life form that resembles humans in its physical appearance but has the intelligence and worldview of a tree stub.

    Replies: @AP

    Someone is trying to shoot the messenger…

  754. @Gerard1234
    @Mr. Hack


    Actually, it speaks more to what an egotistical little prick you are. In reality, most Ukrainians in Poland make a few bucks and then return home to spend it with their families.
     
    Not true at all. And it is the same thing as described perfectly by AnonfromTN happening with "Ukrainians" in Germany,Czech Republic, Italy, Slovakia, even Estonia......where the dickhead Head of Interior Ministry made comments confirming this as happening there . I know several Ukrainians who have done just that and overstayed - part of it as a non-offensive to Russia ideology that looks at the EU as a "promised land" and an even bigger part of that is simple desperation .

    Instead of offering ideas that might help the country of your birth, you continually try to denigrate it
     
    1. WTF, the only thing you OUN scoundrels offer is literally fucking up the country by advising the fastest economically growing country in Europe at the time in 2004, as Ukraine was ( offspring from Russia's economic lift-off) to change it's trajectory at this critical time... in order to go for the pseudo-democratic Orange Movement that brought in the useless idiot Yushchenko in power ( married to, a pseudo"Ukrainian" American OUN-Nazi bitch who worked for the state department!)

    2. Effectively advocate ( again from 1000s of km away) cultural and even literal genocide of the nation - basing it on the sick ideas from a small part of the country that isn't even part of the historical , fake Ukraine.

    3.Literally invest nothing in the country , except for Gay Parades and "completely innappropriate time to wear" Vishivanks contests

    4.don't actually argue or promote anything for Ukraine, but for Anti-Russiastan....... argue for anti-Russia policies, that leave Ukraine as a prostitute antiRussiastan. That inevitably exposes how you north American Ukrops see your nationality and culture as made-up. Hence why we have absurd situations where Banderastan is made to give up and hemorrhage money from trade deals , resources and investment from Russia, make it very hard for them to connect with their families.........but stick to this lunatic Anti-Russia policy of sabotaging NorthStream1/SS2 in order for Ukropia to be a gas transit country earning far less from these fees than from the money they have just thrown away due to idiotic west "advice"

    5. Export to Ukraine only deranged OUN-Nazi lunatics like Ulyana Suprun - probably the worst Health Minister in any country that has ever existed. Majority of these North American morons then run back to North America soon after - their "patriotism" not so apparent.

    AnonFrom TN is a true patriot. It's obvious that what he advices - a path in unison with Russia -would have inevitably made Ukropia immeasurably better in the last 15 years than this disaster it has beem

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    Ukrainians have always wanted their own separate state to separate themselves from you finno-ugric mongols of the north. You guys are like the mentally retarded relation that everybody tries to hide up in the attic. Do you even realize how stupid you sound? How many countries today in the world have placed sanctions on your country?

    • Replies: @Mikhail
    @Mr. Hack


    Ukrainians have always wanted their own separate state to separate themselves from you finno-ugric mongols of the north. You guys are like the mentally retarded relation that everybody tries to hide up in the attic. Do you even realize how stupid you sound? How many countries today in the world have placed sanctions on your country?

     

    Not "always". Plenty of retarded svidos.

    As for the sanctions reference, not a good number of the countries that substantively matter in today's world. As for the others the sanctions are limited in nature - something that Trump has noted regarding Germany.

    In any event, these particular sanctions are faultily premised ones. Kudos that Russia can withstand them.
  755. @reiner Tor
    @Beckow


    Barack received a ‘Nobel’
     
    Nobel Peace Prize vs. Nobel Prize in Physics.

    Maybe too ambitious?
     
    There's a case where being less ambitious was the smart thing in ww2. The Red Army in 1941-42 tried a number of elaborate offensive operations where they'd bypass German strong points and cut them off and let them get destroyed by lack of supplies. However, the more experienced and better trained Germans simply cut off the advancing Soviets from their strongpoints and destroyed the advancing Red Army units. There were several such disasters, even after 1942 (after 1943 less serious ones, but in 1943 the Third Battle of Kharkov is a famous example; though the Second Battle of Kharkov in spring and early summer 1942 was way worse), so the Soviets realized they were incapable of doing that against the better trained Germans.

    So instead the Soviets just attacked German strong points frontally. They also tried to attack the full length of the frontline (or at least many different points), even when they only had a realistic chance of success at one place. (To prevent the Germans from reinforcing their most threatened sectors.) This seemed to be a stupid thing to do and led to enormous casualties, but it made it possible to destroy those strongpoints (at the cost of enormous casualties, of course; and often even that wasn't possible either, whenever the Germans were too strong or the Soviet attacks too inept). So using a less sophisticated and costly (but working) solution was what the Soviets did.

    However, it's generally recognized that the German idea of bypassing strongpoints in a competent way and not letting those strongpoints do anything useful was superior to what the Soviets did. They just needed to have supreme competence all along the chain of command, something the Soviets lacked but the Germans didn't.

    The high command was not stupid in either case (though arguably Germany shouldn't have started the war at all, because Hitler set unwinnable goals which proved impossible to reach, but I'm talking about the operational level; on the top level, Stalin was more competent than Hitler, though he was also insane), but the German military was clearly superior in quality, because they could execute the more sophisticated thing.

    Replies: @Beckow

    …Nobel Peace Prize vs. Nobel Prize in Physics

    Nobel Prize is a trademark. Yes, there are distinctions, but once they went with Obama, there is no way to get back the good name.

    German military was clearly superior in quality, because they could execute the more sophisticated thing.

    Results matter. I get an uncomfortable feeling that it is the result of WWII that you find distasteful, not the ‘operational’ details. And it wasn’t ‘Hitler’ who set un-winnable goals, it was the whole country – they were in it all the way. So were many other Europeans, incl. some of our countrymen.

    The issue is not too much ambition, the issue is that this pattern seems to repeat itself again and again. Usually it is a disaster for all involved, Germans, Russians, French, Poles,… But the natural tendency is to over time slide again into the same loose-loose dilemma – talk tough, talk efficiency, call each other names, invent irreconcilable differences, and eventually start shooting. As if the large space itself was too gravitationally strong to resist another stupid adventure.

    This last time the plan was clearly to chop off the border-lands, arm them to the teeth, and then start squeezing. Now that’s an ambition that can feed a proper think tank ego… Or maybe it was about the Erasmus University for freedom-loving Ukrainian youngsters, because we know that nothing motivates Western think-tankers as much as well being of Kiev kids.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @Beckow


    Nobel Prize is a trademark. Yes, there are distinctions, but once they went with Obama, there is no way to get back the good name.
     
    Well, you can say that Mercedes-Benz used to be highly reliable and a splendid car, but now it's an over-engineered piece of crap. Or that diesel Mazdas are nowhere near as reliable as gasoline Mazdas.

    Nobel Prizes are just one data point. There are other data points, like Swiss lead in several hi technology industries, things like optical equipment etc. They built up these while Switzerland was still a relatively poor country.

    But of course you can believe whatever you like.

    I get an uncomfortable feeling
     
    Why does it matter what you feel? It's pretty obvious that ww2 is not something you are interested in, and that you base your opinions pretty much on your feelings. I've read at least a couple hundred books on the subject (broadly understood, including several books on the holocaust etc.), even more if we include books on Stalinism or the whole 1914-45 era. I have read several military history treatises as well. Feel free not to believe that I base my opinions on what I think is true.

    it wasn’t ‘Hitler’ who set un-winnable goals, it was the whole country
     
    That's wrong as well. Most Germans certainly didn't want any war, let alone an ultimately disastrous world war. It's well known that German crowds were absent when Hitler announced the war (unlike in 1914, when all major capitals had huge or at least moderately sized crowds celebrating...), and most Germans reported unease when Goebbels announced the war against the USSR. Of course, had Hitler won, they'd have been more than happy to become the Herrenvolk of the Thousand Year Reich, but they weren't eager at all to fight a huge war for it. My pretty firm opinion is that Hitler already had enough after Munich, and other than very minor border changes (Memel, maybe Danzig..?) he shouldn't have tried to grab more.

    this pattern seems to repeat itself
     
    Which pattern?

    talk tough, talk efficiency, call each other names, invent irreconcilable differences, and eventually start shooting
     
    I'm not sure what "talk efficiency" does in that list. Yes, it's problem to start a propaganda war and then a shooting war for no good reasons.

    Replies: @Beckow

  756. German_reader says:
    @reiner Tor
    @AnonFromTN


    Once in a century, Europe unites, makes war on Russia, gets beaten to pulp
     
    That's a pretty bad understanding of history. It's based on two cases, neither of which represented Europe "uniting" in any real way. In both cases the Anglos actually supported Russia (so maybe an equal case could be made that "once in a century, Anglos and Russians unite against the dominant European power to destroy it"), while the forces joining the dominant power were unwilling and/or low quality. (For example under Napoleon many Prussians left their armed forces to avoid serving Napoleon - which is why 1812-13 saw a certain General Carl von Clausewitz in the service of the Russian Tsar. You can imagine the enthusiasm shown by such forces.)

    Replies: @Kent Nationalist, @German_reader, @AnonFromTN

    That’s a pretty bad understanding of history.

    One reads that fairly often by Russians on Unz review (Martyanov just made the same argument a few days ago on some other thread), and I always wonder what it’s supposed to be on. tbh at this point I believe it’s the result of commie conditioning about the irredeemable hostility of the capitalist-imperialist world, with the explicitly socialist parts having faded away over the last 30 years. But it’s a very selective reading of the historical record in any case.

    • Agree: reiner Tor
    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    @German_reader

    Please answer in a non-selective way two questions:
    1. Which country crushed the bulk of Napoleon army?
    2. Which country crushed the bulk of Hitler’s army?
    While you are at it, you might also mention the countries that folded or ran away with their tails between their legs in both cases.

    Also, FYI, Tsarist Russia that defeated Napoleon has nothing “socialist” about it.

    Present-day Russia, which turned the tide of civil war in Syria against the terrorists, also has nothing “socialist” about it (as Russian commies never fail to state in their endless complaints).

  757. @Mr. Hack
    @Gerard1234

    Ukrainians have always wanted their own separate state to separate themselves from you finno-ugric mongols of the north. You guys are like the mentally retarded relation that everybody tries to hide up in the attic. Do you even realize how stupid you sound? How many countries today in the world have placed sanctions on your country?

    Replies: @Mikhail

    Ukrainians have always wanted their own separate state to separate themselves from you finno-ugric mongols of the north. You guys are like the mentally retarded relation that everybody tries to hide up in the attic. Do you even realize how stupid you sound? How many countries today in the world have placed sanctions on your country?

    Not “always”. Plenty of retarded svidos.

    As for the sanctions reference, not a good number of the countries that substantively matter in today’s world. As for the others the sanctions are limited in nature – something that Trump has noted regarding Germany.

    In any event, these particular sanctions are faultily premised ones. Kudos that Russia can withstand them.

    • Agree: RadicalCenter
  758. @Dmitry
    @songbird


    Japanese take on an idea
     
    Japan can be a special case.

    However, for example, Italy has distinctive culture as any country in the world. And Italy also cannot produce good films now.

    a globalist adaptation, not an American one.

     

    But then you can wonder about why there is such a terrible deterioration in the quality of globalist adaptation.

    If you remember the maybe other most beautiful film about American history - "Once upon a time in the West".

    This film was made by Italians, and filmed in Spain, with American and Italian actors, while based on core American mythology and history. The globalized film could be better than mononational film, in that time.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgrUtruA2zk

    Replies: @songbird

    If you remember the maybe other most beautiful film about American history – “Once upon a time in the West”.

    I have not seen this film, though I am trying to increase my knowledge of Westerns, partly, since they were so quintessentially American.

    What I consider globalism, I would say requires some multiracial consciousness at its core, so I would not count the arrangement of a film being shot in Europe and/or using a European director to be true globalism.

    It is difficult to put a date on anything, but I can see some movies from the early 1990s and still feel, whether they are bad or good, they are still very American. I think globalism in film began sometime after that. Definitely, by the early 2000s. Though, of course, there were earlier elements.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @songbird

    “Once upon a time in the West” - is a very beautiful film and you should watch it.

    It is certainly globalized and multinational. It is obviously not American film. Culturally and visually it is different to American films. It is like an Italian opera about American films and American mythology.

    Most "Spaghetti Westerns" are filmed in multiple languages, or voices are added later in different languages. Production is also shared across multiple countries.

    Yet these multinational projects could create very good films. Think about "The Good, the Bad and the Ugly" as well.

  759. As with all statements of that nature, you need to qualify it before you form a judgement. E.g. commie conditioning definitely didn’t apply to Western ‘working classes‘ who were explicitly seen as an ally. So blaming this one on the commies is not thought through. There is hostility and it has to come from something.

    Even if we put aside the repeated attacks by the West on Russia throughout history – probably 5-7 times – and write them off as ancient history and ‘everybody did it‘, we are left with the last few decades that are hard to explain without an element of Western elites’ deep dislike of Russia. The general Western attitude is wanting Russia to be smaller, lesser, more docile and uber generous with its resources.

    Why is that? France has shown deep hostility towards Russia constantly preaching about the danger that Russia poses, trying to limit any real cooperation, often engaging in quite stupid demonization campaigns. So has Britain, Sweden, even Spain and Germany. If something is this ubiquitous claiming that it is a paranoid figment of imagination itself looks dodgy. Why not address it?

    Some of it an atavistic leftover from the Cold War, some of it anger at being kept from Russia’s resources, some a reaction to Russia’s policies (e.g. Crimea), but to claim that Russia – and anyone seen as a potential ally of Russia like Serbia – don’t face a deep hostility from the West is simply and obviously not true.

    Ireland or Greece would never be brutally bombed by the West the way Serbia was, they could literally be roasting children alive in Dublin and no humanitarian would dare to suggest to bomb Ireland. When US-UK-France bombed and destroyed a number of countries in the Middle East, no movement to ‘sanction’ them ever popped up. When Hungarian language is restricted EU goes ape-shit with anger, when Russian is they smirk and say ‘good, the bastards deserve it – let them go back to Russia’, can you fathom EU saying something like that about any other group in the universe?

    So there is something different about Russia, if it is not ‘iredeemable hostility’, what exactly is it?

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Beckow


    Even if we put aside the repeated attacks by the West on Russia throughout history – probably 5-7 times
     
    "the West" didn't attack Russia several times in history, some Western powers did (though Russia has hardly been always just a victim of foreign aggression), with others being allied to Russia in many of those conflicts. I don't see how this is supposed to be different from other wars between European states.

    Ireland or Greece would never be brutally bombed by the West the way Serbia was
     
    We'll see about that if/when some Western European state actually erupts into major civil strife and starts expelling Muslims and other unwanted foreigners.
    And while it's probably true that Serbia's Orthodox background made demonization of Serbs in Western media in the 1990s easier, you're forgetting that Serbs were seen as the "good guys" in many Western countries for much of the 20th century due to their role in the world wars.

    Replies: @Beckow, @utu

  760. German_reader says:
    @Beckow
    As with all statements of that nature, you need to qualify it before you form a judgement. E.g. commie conditioning definitely didn't apply to Western 'working classes' who were explicitly seen as an ally. So blaming this one on the commies is not thought through. There is hostility and it has to come from something.

    Even if we put aside the repeated attacks by the West on Russia throughout history - probably 5-7 times - and write them off as ancient history and 'everybody did it', we are left with the last few decades that are hard to explain without an element of Western elites' deep dislike of Russia. The general Western attitude is wanting Russia to be smaller, lesser, more docile and uber generous with its resources.

    Why is that? France has shown deep hostility towards Russia constantly preaching about the danger that Russia poses, trying to limit any real cooperation, often engaging in quite stupid demonization campaigns. So has Britain, Sweden, even Spain and Germany. If something is this ubiquitous claiming that it is a paranoid figment of imagination itself looks dodgy. Why not address it?

    Some of it an atavistic leftover from the Cold War, some of it anger at being kept from Russia's resources, some a reaction to Russia's policies (e.g. Crimea), but to claim that Russia - and anyone seen as a potential ally of Russia like Serbia - don't face a deep hostility from the West is simply and obviously not true.

    Ireland or Greece would never be brutally bombed by the West the way Serbia was, they could literally be roasting children alive in Dublin and no humanitarian would dare to suggest to bomb Ireland. When US-UK-France bombed and destroyed a number of countries in the Middle East, no movement to 'sanction' them ever popped up. When Hungarian language is restricted EU goes ape-shit with anger, when Russian is they smirk and say 'good, the bastards deserve it - let them go back to Russia', can you fathom EU saying something like that about any other group in the universe?

    So there is something different about Russia, if it is not 'iredeemable hostility', what exactly is it?

    Replies: @German_reader

    Even if we put aside the repeated attacks by the West on Russia throughout history – probably 5-7 times

    “the West” didn’t attack Russia several times in history, some Western powers did (though Russia has hardly been always just a victim of foreign aggression), with others being allied to Russia in many of those conflicts. I don’t see how this is supposed to be different from other wars between European states.

    Ireland or Greece would never be brutally bombed by the West the way Serbia was

    We’ll see about that if/when some Western European state actually erupts into major civil strife and starts expelling Muslims and other unwanted foreigners.
    And while it’s probably true that Serbia’s Orthodox background made demonization of Serbs in Western media in the 1990s easier, you’re forgetting that Serbs were seen as the “good guys” in many Western countries for much of the 20th century due to their role in the world wars.

    • Replies: @Beckow
    @German_reader

    I did say let's put aside history - I agree that it was complex, but all in all there probably were more attacks eastward than in reverse.

    If the crazied liberals actually get to the point of attacking a country like Greece and Ireland - I strongly doubt that it would ever happen - it will be because a precedent was established that it was ok to bomb a country if one objected to 'human rights' stories from there. The Irish better be careful, maybe that's why they walk on shells around the Nigerian goons who push them around.

    Somehow the arguments I see here don't add up to a bona fide and believable narrative - you yourself proudly stated that limiting Russian linguistic rights in Estonia - and the potential consequences - are worth a war. Would anyone ever state that about Swedes in Finland, Hungarians in Romania, etc...? Double standards simply mean that West (=EU) has no standards.

    Replies: @German_reader

    , @utu
    @German_reader

    "Serbs were seen as the “good guys” in many Western countries" - Exactly. Remember reading an article in Israel's paper where they tried to reconcile their overt sympathies for Serbs and justification of NATO war against them

  761. @German_reader
    @Beckow


    Even if we put aside the repeated attacks by the West on Russia throughout history – probably 5-7 times
     
    "the West" didn't attack Russia several times in history, some Western powers did (though Russia has hardly been always just a victim of foreign aggression), with others being allied to Russia in many of those conflicts. I don't see how this is supposed to be different from other wars between European states.

    Ireland or Greece would never be brutally bombed by the West the way Serbia was
     
    We'll see about that if/when some Western European state actually erupts into major civil strife and starts expelling Muslims and other unwanted foreigners.
    And while it's probably true that Serbia's Orthodox background made demonization of Serbs in Western media in the 1990s easier, you're forgetting that Serbs were seen as the "good guys" in many Western countries for much of the 20th century due to their role in the world wars.

    Replies: @Beckow, @utu

    I did say let’s put aside history – I agree that it was complex, but all in all there probably were more attacks eastward than in reverse.

    If the crazied liberals actually get to the point of attacking a country like Greece and Ireland – I strongly doubt that it would ever happen – it will be because a precedent was established that it was ok to bomb a country if one objected to ‘human rights’ stories from there. The Irish better be careful, maybe that’s why they walk on shells around the Nigerian goons who push them around.

    Somehow the arguments I see here don’t add up to a bona fide and believable narrative – you yourself proudly stated that limiting Russian linguistic rights in Estonia – and the potential consequences – are worth a war. Would anyone ever state that about Swedes in Finland, Hungarians in Romania, etc…? Double standards simply mean that West (=EU) has no standards.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Beckow


    you yourself proudly stated that limiting Russian linguistic rights in Estonia – and the potential consequences – are worth a war.
     
    You're reversing the causality here...in the scenario we discussed it would be Russia who decides "language rights" of the Russian minority in Estonia are worth a war and justify the invasion of another state (btw, how can you complain about Kosovo when you think that this would be justified? It's basically the same logic that sovereignty is trumped by "human rights").
    As for the rest, imo you're exaggerating. Sure, Russia is demonized in Western media, and that is potentially very dangerous. But it's not a unique phenomenon. Western media routinely demonize large parts of their own populations as well (e.g. German "comedians" make jokes of the kind that napalm should be dropped on Saxony, that the state needs to be visited by RAF and Red army again etc.; and my impression is there's similarly intense hatred among "progressives" at least in Britain and the US as well).

    Replies: @Beckow

  762. German_reader says:
    @Beckow
    @German_reader

    I did say let's put aside history - I agree that it was complex, but all in all there probably were more attacks eastward than in reverse.

    If the crazied liberals actually get to the point of attacking a country like Greece and Ireland - I strongly doubt that it would ever happen - it will be because a precedent was established that it was ok to bomb a country if one objected to 'human rights' stories from there. The Irish better be careful, maybe that's why they walk on shells around the Nigerian goons who push them around.

    Somehow the arguments I see here don't add up to a bona fide and believable narrative - you yourself proudly stated that limiting Russian linguistic rights in Estonia - and the potential consequences - are worth a war. Would anyone ever state that about Swedes in Finland, Hungarians in Romania, etc...? Double standards simply mean that West (=EU) has no standards.

    Replies: @German_reader

    you yourself proudly stated that limiting Russian linguistic rights in Estonia – and the potential consequences – are worth a war.

    You’re reversing the causality here…in the scenario we discussed it would be Russia who decides “language rights” of the Russian minority in Estonia are worth a war and justify the invasion of another state (btw, how can you complain about Kosovo when you think that this would be justified? It’s basically the same logic that sovereignty is trumped by “human rights”).
    As for the rest, imo you’re exaggerating. Sure, Russia is demonized in Western media, and that is potentially very dangerous. But it’s not a unique phenomenon. Western media routinely demonize large parts of their own populations as well (e.g. German “comedians” make jokes of the kind that napalm should be dropped on Saxony, that the state needs to be visited by RAF and Red army again etc.; and my impression is there’s similarly intense hatred among “progressives” at least in Britain and the US as well).

    • Replies: @Beckow
    @German_reader


    ...reversing the causality here
     
    Chicken and egg - what comes first? One can argue that restricting language rights is the original cause - certainly the West has aggressively argued it elsewhere in the world.

    I see Kosovo as a precedent so when you accuse me of 'complaining' keep in mind what happened: West declared that it is perfectly ok to bomb people in the name of 'human rights', ok to change borders in Europe by force, and even ok to be proud of it. What is good for the geese, is good for the gander.

    Am I exaggerating? Sure, we all exaggerate to make a point, I get the nuances. But the underlying reality is still there. I also know about a similar anti-German mania in the past further West and some places east, but it has largely dissipated. I didn't know about the demonization of Saxony etc... - that is quite interesting, thanks.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

  763. @German_reader
    @Beckow


    Even if we put aside the repeated attacks by the West on Russia throughout history – probably 5-7 times
     
    "the West" didn't attack Russia several times in history, some Western powers did (though Russia has hardly been always just a victim of foreign aggression), with others being allied to Russia in many of those conflicts. I don't see how this is supposed to be different from other wars between European states.

    Ireland or Greece would never be brutally bombed by the West the way Serbia was
     
    We'll see about that if/when some Western European state actually erupts into major civil strife and starts expelling Muslims and other unwanted foreigners.
    And while it's probably true that Serbia's Orthodox background made demonization of Serbs in Western media in the 1990s easier, you're forgetting that Serbs were seen as the "good guys" in many Western countries for much of the 20th century due to their role in the world wars.

    Replies: @Beckow, @utu

    “Serbs were seen as the “good guys” in many Western countries” – Exactly. Remember reading an article in Israel’s paper where they tried to reconcile their overt sympathies for Serbs and justification of NATO war against them

  764. @Thorfinnsson
    @Mr. Hack

    If Ukrainians actually are dimmer than Russians, Balkanoid and perhaps Tatar admixture play a role. But I would suspect the main causes are:

    1) The North-South East Slavic cline, with northerners being more intelligent. These northern East Slavs are in Belarus and Russia, but not the Ukraine.

    2) Since the Ukraine has rarely had an independent existence, over the past few centuries ambitious Ukrainians have ended up relocating imperial centers and gradually assimilating in those ethnic groups. So many talented Ukrainians over time became Polish or Russian (or rather their descendants did). There may also be a non-trivial impact by Italian and Turkish slaving operations, depending on what sort of slaves were captured and how many.

    You can see something similar at work in Scotland. Three centuries ago there was a Scottish Enlightenment. Today there is Trainspotting and culinary "innovations" like deep fried pizza and deep fried Mars bars. That is because since the Act of Union talented Scots have relocated to England, other points in the British Empire, and the United States (Andrew Carnegie).

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @AnonFromTN, @RadicalCenter, @dux.ie

    Excellent point and analogy to Scotland as well. Plausible explanation for brain drain out of Ukraine.

    But Italians in recent centuries rounding up people in Ukraine to be slaves?

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @RadicalCenter


    But Italians in recent centuries rounding up people in Ukraine to be slaves?
     
    It refers to the 13th/14th century:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feodosia#Kaffa

    Replies: @RadicalCenter

  765. @Mr. Hack
    @AnonFromTN

    And the very smartest Ukrainians, those that are willing to leave their mothers behind in poverty, are the smartest of all? So, what do you call yourself today? Are you an Amerik☭n? What do you have planned for tomorrow?

    Replies: @AnonFromTN, @RadicalCenter

    Your ancestors didn’t leave poor family behind when they came to America?

  766. @RadicalCenter
    @Thorfinnsson

    Excellent point and analogy to Scotland as well. Plausible explanation for brain drain out of Ukraine.

    But Italians in recent centuries rounding up people in Ukraine to be slaves?

    Replies: @German_reader

    But Italians in recent centuries rounding up people in Ukraine to be slaves?

    It refers to the 13th/14th century:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feodosia#Kaffa

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
    @German_reader

    Huh. Didn’t know that and glad to learn it, thank you.

  767. @melanf
    @AP


    How many African Americans have you known?
     
    Zero. But for me (like you) are quite available statistics about both African-Americans and Montenegrins.
    In this list, many other absurdities-for example, a monstrous gap between Slovenia and Slovakia, Portugal which is much smarter than Luxembourg, etc., etc.

    Replies: @AP, @RadicalCenter

    “Zero.” I envy you. Truly.

  768. @German_reader
    @RadicalCenter


    But Italians in recent centuries rounding up people in Ukraine to be slaves?
     
    It refers to the 13th/14th century:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feodosia#Kaffa

    Replies: @RadicalCenter

    Huh. Didn’t know that and glad to learn it, thank you.

  769. @German_reader
    @Beckow


    you yourself proudly stated that limiting Russian linguistic rights in Estonia – and the potential consequences – are worth a war.
     
    You're reversing the causality here...in the scenario we discussed it would be Russia who decides "language rights" of the Russian minority in Estonia are worth a war and justify the invasion of another state (btw, how can you complain about Kosovo when you think that this would be justified? It's basically the same logic that sovereignty is trumped by "human rights").
    As for the rest, imo you're exaggerating. Sure, Russia is demonized in Western media, and that is potentially very dangerous. But it's not a unique phenomenon. Western media routinely demonize large parts of their own populations as well (e.g. German "comedians" make jokes of the kind that napalm should be dropped on Saxony, that the state needs to be visited by RAF and Red army again etc.; and my impression is there's similarly intense hatred among "progressives" at least in Britain and the US as well).

    Replies: @Beckow

    …reversing the causality here

    Chicken and egg – what comes first? One can argue that restricting language rights is the original cause – certainly the West has aggressively argued it elsewhere in the world.

    I see Kosovo as a precedent so when you accuse me of ‘complaining’ keep in mind what happened: West declared that it is perfectly ok to bomb people in the name of ‘human rights‘, ok to change borders in Europe by force, and even ok to be proud of it. What is good for the geese, is good for the gander.

    Am I exaggerating? Sure, we all exaggerate to make a point, I get the nuances. But the underlying reality is still there. I also know about a similar anti-German mania in the past further West and some places east, but it has largely dissipated. I didn’t know about the demonization of Saxony etc… – that is quite interesting, thanks.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @Beckow


    What is good for the geese, is good for the gander.
     
    1) the situations in the hypothetical example wouldn’t be exactly analogous, because in Kosovo there were some atrocities against civilians, not just language rights. Not to mention the fact that Serbs still had a country even after Kosovo was taken away from them, while Balts would lose their whole country.

    2) sure, the West might be hypocritical, but then so are you, because you condemn the Kosovo situation, but you seem to accept the hypothetical Russian attack.

    In general, you seem totally indifferent to the suffering of the Balts, it was pretty rich when you wrote somewhere that Balts were not as oppressed as Slovaks in pre-1918 Hungary.

    Replies: @Beckow

  770. @Beckow
    @reiner Tor


    ...Nobel Peace Prize vs. Nobel Prize in Physics
     
    Nobel Prize is a trademark. Yes, there are distinctions, but once they went with Obama, there is no way to get back the good name.

    German military was clearly superior in quality, because they could execute the more sophisticated thing.
     
    Results matter. I get an uncomfortable feeling that it is the result of WWII that you find distasteful, not the 'operational' details. And it wasn't 'Hitler' who set un-winnable goals, it was the whole country - they were in it all the way. So were many other Europeans, incl. some of our countrymen.

    The issue is not too much ambition, the issue is that this pattern seems to repeat itself again and again. Usually it is a disaster for all involved, Germans, Russians, French, Poles,... But the natural tendency is to over time slide again into the same loose-loose dilemma - talk tough, talk efficiency, call each other names, invent irreconcilable differences, and eventually start shooting. As if the large space itself was too gravitationally strong to resist another stupid adventure.

    This last time the plan was clearly to chop off the border-lands, arm them to the teeth, and then start squeezing. Now that's an ambition that can feed a proper think tank ego... Or maybe it was about the Erasmus University for freedom-loving Ukrainian youngsters, because we know that nothing motivates Western think-tankers as much as well being of Kiev kids.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    Nobel Prize is a trademark. Yes, there are distinctions, but once they went with Obama, there is no way to get back the good name.

    Well, you can say that Mercedes-Benz used to be highly reliable and a splendid car, but now it’s an over-engineered piece of crap. Or that diesel Mazdas are nowhere near as reliable as gasoline Mazdas.

    Nobel Prizes are just one data point. There are other data points, like Swiss lead in several hi technology industries, things like optical equipment etc. They built up these while Switzerland was still a relatively poor country.

    But of course you can believe whatever you like.

    I get an uncomfortable feeling

    Why does it matter what you feel? It’s pretty obvious that ww2 is not something you are interested in, and that you base your opinions pretty much on your feelings. I’ve read at least a couple hundred books on the subject (broadly understood, including several books on the holocaust etc.), even more if we include books on Stalinism or the whole 1914-45 era. I have read several military history treatises as well. Feel free not to believe that I base my opinions on what I think is true.

    it wasn’t ‘Hitler’ who set un-winnable goals, it was the whole country

    That’s wrong as well. Most Germans certainly didn’t want any war, let alone an ultimately disastrous world war. It’s well known that German crowds were absent when Hitler announced the war (unlike in 1914, when all major capitals had huge or at least moderately sized crowds celebrating…), and most Germans reported unease when Goebbels announced the war against the USSR. Of course, had Hitler won, they’d have been more than happy to become the Herrenvolk of the Thousand Year Reich, but they weren’t eager at all to fight a huge war for it. My pretty firm opinion is that Hitler already had enough after Munich, and other than very minor border changes (Memel, maybe Danzig..?) he shouldn’t have tried to grab more.

    this pattern seems to repeat itself

    Which pattern?

    talk tough, talk efficiency, call each other names, invent irreconcilable differences, and eventually start shooting

    I’m not sure what “talk efficiency” does in that list. Yes, it’s problem to start a propaganda war and then a shooting war for no good reasons.

    • Replies: @Beckow
    @reiner Tor


    Germans certainly didn’t want any war, let alone an ultimately disastrous world war...they weren’t eager to fight a huge war for it
     
    But they did fight it, losing millions of lives. I dismiss assumed motivations or what 'people want' - how can we possibly know? With all due respect the effort Germany put into WWII couldn't be because one man, Hitler, and a few people around him wanted to fight a war. That's simple logic. Yeah, in retrospect people disown failures, that's human nature.

    'talk efficiency' refers to an annoying Western habit of cherrypicking minutia and boasting about the 'efficiency' of even their losses. It is a transparent way to make themselves feel better about the losses, it is rather sad. Russians won, period. (And that word 'feel' again, sorry to use it since we are all so rational here, right?)

    You and I agree on more than what we disagree on. We differ in our national perspective, and that's not fixable, too bad. I have always said that the real Achilles heel of nationalism is that it often ends up focusing on mutual disagreements, dislikes and historical grievances. As you can see, if you press me I will respond in kind. And that's how we end up with mushy liberal bs that is all around us - ladies don't like conflicts, and it is down hill from there.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

  771. @Beckow
    @German_reader


    ...reversing the causality here
     
    Chicken and egg - what comes first? One can argue that restricting language rights is the original cause - certainly the West has aggressively argued it elsewhere in the world.

    I see Kosovo as a precedent so when you accuse me of 'complaining' keep in mind what happened: West declared that it is perfectly ok to bomb people in the name of 'human rights', ok to change borders in Europe by force, and even ok to be proud of it. What is good for the geese, is good for the gander.

    Am I exaggerating? Sure, we all exaggerate to make a point, I get the nuances. But the underlying reality is still there. I also know about a similar anti-German mania in the past further West and some places east, but it has largely dissipated. I didn't know about the demonization of Saxony etc... - that is quite interesting, thanks.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    What is good for the geese, is good for the gander.

    1) the situations in the hypothetical example wouldn’t be exactly analogous, because in Kosovo there were some atrocities against civilians, not just language rights. Not to mention the fact that Serbs still had a country even after Kosovo was taken away from them, while Balts would lose their whole country.

    2) sure, the West might be hypocritical, but then so are you, because you condemn the Kosovo situation, but you seem to accept the hypothetical Russian attack.

    In general, you seem totally indifferent to the suffering of the Balts, it was pretty rich when you wrote somewhere that Balts were not as oppressed as Slovaks in pre-1918 Hungary.

    • Replies: @Beckow
    @reiner Tor


    ...not exactly analogous
     
    Nothing is exactly the same, so?

    in Kosovo there were some atrocities
     
    I specifically said in my scenario that before Russia would intervene there would be a clamp-down by Estonia on its Russian speakers. Of course, you can describe that as 'maintaining order' or 'fighting terrorism', we can all play the atrocity verbal game.

    Serbs still had a country after Kosovo, while Balts would lose their whole country
     
    Why would they? I specifically only talked about Narva - one city in Estonia. Very similar to Kosovo inside Serbia.

    you condemn the Kosovo situation, but you seem to accept the hypothetical Russian attack.
     
    Kosovo already happened - and it set a precedent that it is ok to use human rights rhetoric to bomb a country and change its borders by force. We are in a post-Kosovo world, so calling people who say so 'hypocritical' is way off. Who is hypocritical are people who did Kosovo and then they turned around and said 'nobody else can use the same principles and methods as West used in Kosovo'. Why the f..k not?

    I am sympathetic towards the Balts. What they are doing is rather stupid, or what their elites are doing - there is no winning by escalating tensions with a giant neighbour when a large part of your population shares ethnicity with that neighbour.

    Slovaks were significantly more oppressed by Magyars pre-1918: Balts had schools in their own languages under the Soviets, Magyars worked hard to suppress them. Balts had regional autonomy (actual federal states), Magyars screamed that even talking about autonomy for the other nationalities was treason. Absolutely, it is not even close, Magyars were much worse.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

  772. @reiner Tor
    @Dmitry

    Once you had a family, you'd understand why it's especially bad to spend very long hours in the office.

    I'd also mention that it prohibits your healthy socialization (since you have already written you were totally not on the autism spectrum, an information I totally trust, it's something you would easily understand), and makes it very difficult for you to get involved in a number of healthy or otherwise positive activities (spending a lot of time outdoors, doing sports, reading books, etc.), so it's not very healthy. Being forced into it (like the Japanese) means that people who would actually prefer to do all those things (family, socializing with other people, being outdoors, doing sports, reading books, whatever) are forced to reduce themselves to watching YouTube videos and playing video games in the office. Pretty bad for all those people.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    I don’t know about other jobs, but some parts of my job are difficult, and it requires that you need to “dilute” the working time.

    If you tried to do the more difficult parts for 4 hours without a break, it will be painful (depending on your personality).

    On the other hand, if you spread the same tasks over 16 hours, and mix it with anything else you want – then it can be pleasant, or at least not painful.

    You might say you were working 80 hours a week – but actually maybe 5 hours a day, just diluted with a lot of distractions.

    healthy or otherwise positive activities (spending a lot of time outdoors, doing sports, reading books,

    All this stuff, is part of how we dilute time during the day, at least in my case.

    In terms of reading, office environment improves this. As it becomes a bit public, there is a motive to read more intelligent looking books to improve your reputation.

    Even for pure distraction (unrelated to work) I am reading books by authors like Quine, and finishing these books, which I would not be able to do if I was in a different environment.

    However, internet based distractions like watching YouTube, are better if you want to a 30 minute break, instead of a 2 hour one, and don’t want to forget where you are in your task.

    We have a budget where we can hire things like language classes, or even art classes (which they set up in our actual office), if we want – but the problem is when we tried this, then people usually do not go to that kind of class regularly as their schedule for the day is changing too much from week to week.

    Pretty bad for all those people.

    It’s quite unrealistic to desire differently.

    This dilution is common for many jobs .

    What do you think it is like to be an emergency doctor? Most of the hours are not saving lives, but waiting for the next case.

    Or for airplane pilot? Most of the hours are not flying the plane, but staying in the hotel waiting to fly back.

    If you want to work short hours, in a solid and intense bloc, then it will remove quite a lot of job options (including jobs where the work is too intense to not take breaks).

  773. @songbird
    @Dmitry


    If you remember the maybe other most beautiful film about American history – “Once upon a time in the West”.

     

    I have not seen this film, though I am trying to increase my knowledge of Westerns, partly, since they were so quintessentially American.

    What I consider globalism, I would say requires some multiracial consciousness at its core, so I would not count the arrangement of a film being shot in Europe and/or using a European director to be true globalism.

    It is difficult to put a date on anything, but I can see some movies from the early 1990s and still feel, whether they are bad or good, they are still very American. I think globalism in film began sometime after that. Definitely, by the early 2000s. Though, of course, there were earlier elements.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    “Once upon a time in the West” – is a very beautiful film and you should watch it.

    It is certainly globalized and multinational. It is obviously not American film. Culturally and visually it is different to American films. It is like an Italian opera about American films and American mythology.

    Most “Spaghetti Westerns” are filmed in multiple languages, or voices are added later in different languages. Production is also shared across multiple countries.

    Yet these multinational projects could create very good films. Think about “The Good, the Bad and the Ugly” as well.

  774. @reiner Tor
    @Beckow


    What is good for the geese, is good for the gander.
     
    1) the situations in the hypothetical example wouldn’t be exactly analogous, because in Kosovo there were some atrocities against civilians, not just language rights. Not to mention the fact that Serbs still had a country even after Kosovo was taken away from them, while Balts would lose their whole country.

    2) sure, the West might be hypocritical, but then so are you, because you condemn the Kosovo situation, but you seem to accept the hypothetical Russian attack.

    In general, you seem totally indifferent to the suffering of the Balts, it was pretty rich when you wrote somewhere that Balts were not as oppressed as Slovaks in pre-1918 Hungary.

    Replies: @Beckow

    …not exactly analogous

    Nothing is exactly the same, so?

    in Kosovo there were some atrocities

    I specifically said in my scenario that before Russia would intervene there would be a clamp-down by Estonia on its Russian speakers. Of course, you can describe that as ‘maintaining order‘ or ‘fighting terrorism‘, we can all play the atrocity verbal game.

    Serbs still had a country after Kosovo, while Balts would lose their whole country

    Why would they? I specifically only talked about Narva – one city in Estonia. Very similar to Kosovo inside Serbia.

    you condemn the Kosovo situation, but you seem to accept the hypothetical Russian attack.

    Kosovo already happened – and it set a precedent that it is ok to use human rights rhetoric to bomb a country and change its borders by force. We are in a post-Kosovo world, so calling people who say so ‘hypocritical’ is way off. Who is hypocritical are people who did Kosovo and then they turned around and said ‘nobody else can use the same principles and methods as West used in Kosovo‘. Why the f..k not?

    I am sympathetic towards the Balts. What they are doing is rather stupid, or what their elites are doing – there is no winning by escalating tensions with a giant neighbour when a large part of your population shares ethnicity with that neighbour.

    Slovaks were significantly more oppressed by Magyars pre-1918: Balts had schools in their own languages under the Soviets, Magyars worked hard to suppress them. Balts had regional autonomy (actual federal states), Magyars screamed that even talking about autonomy for the other nationalities was treason. Absolutely, it is not even close, Magyars were much worse.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @Beckow


    Slovaks were significantly more oppressed by Magyars pre-1918: Balts had schools in their own languages under the Soviets, Magyars worked hard to suppress them. Balts had regional autonomy (actual federal states), Magyars screamed that even talking about autonomy for the other nationalities was treason. Absolutely, it is not even close, Magyars were much worse.
     
    Except Magyars never mass deported Slovaks, nor did they settle masses of Magyars in Slovakia to change the ethnic composition. The Soviets deported some 10% of the Baltic population (well over 10% in the case of Estonia), killed maybe 1-2% or more, and then settled Russians equivalent to 20-30% of the population (more in the case of Estonia and Latvia).

    Replies: @Beckow, @AnonFromTN

  775. @Beckow
    @reiner Tor


    ...not exactly analogous
     
    Nothing is exactly the same, so?

    in Kosovo there were some atrocities
     
    I specifically said in my scenario that before Russia would intervene there would be a clamp-down by Estonia on its Russian speakers. Of course, you can describe that as 'maintaining order' or 'fighting terrorism', we can all play the atrocity verbal game.

    Serbs still had a country after Kosovo, while Balts would lose their whole country
     
    Why would they? I specifically only talked about Narva - one city in Estonia. Very similar to Kosovo inside Serbia.

    you condemn the Kosovo situation, but you seem to accept the hypothetical Russian attack.
     
    Kosovo already happened - and it set a precedent that it is ok to use human rights rhetoric to bomb a country and change its borders by force. We are in a post-Kosovo world, so calling people who say so 'hypocritical' is way off. Who is hypocritical are people who did Kosovo and then they turned around and said 'nobody else can use the same principles and methods as West used in Kosovo'. Why the f..k not?

    I am sympathetic towards the Balts. What they are doing is rather stupid, or what their elites are doing - there is no winning by escalating tensions with a giant neighbour when a large part of your population shares ethnicity with that neighbour.

    Slovaks were significantly more oppressed by Magyars pre-1918: Balts had schools in their own languages under the Soviets, Magyars worked hard to suppress them. Balts had regional autonomy (actual federal states), Magyars screamed that even talking about autonomy for the other nationalities was treason. Absolutely, it is not even close, Magyars were much worse.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    Slovaks were significantly more oppressed by Magyars pre-1918: Balts had schools in their own languages under the Soviets, Magyars worked hard to suppress them. Balts had regional autonomy (actual federal states), Magyars screamed that even talking about autonomy for the other nationalities was treason. Absolutely, it is not even close, Magyars were much worse.

    Except Magyars never mass deported Slovaks, nor did they settle masses of Magyars in Slovakia to change the ethnic composition. The Soviets deported some 10% of the Baltic population (well over 10% in the case of Estonia), killed maybe 1-2% or more, and then settled Russians equivalent to 20-30% of the population (more in the case of Estonia and Latvia).

    • Replies: @Beckow
    @reiner Tor

    I am very skeptical of your numbers. There was clearly a lot of people moving around, it was a single country after all, same as Habsburg Empire pre-1918. The numbers that the revenge-seeking nationalists throw around today are political numbers, they define everything as 'deportation' or 'settlers', while many were probably what one would call today migrants seeking better opportunities.

    Russians lived in the Baltic for centuries, with heavy industry a lot more came. Magyars moved 20,000 people to southern Slovakia the moment they occupied it in 1938, hundreds of thousands of Slovaks emigrated - I can equally claim that they emigrated because of Magyar oppression, many of them certainly did, they said so. Magyars also shot some people and imprisoned anyone who resisted or had ideas about national autonomy.

    And a key distinction - Magyars tried to suppress national languages and schools, and refused to even consider any kind of ethnic autonomy. Soviets gave Balts their own federal states, with their own schools and universities, leaders, culture, etc... nobody was ever prosecuted for speaking Estonian. In my view, Magyars were much worse. Where is your sympathy for their victims?

    Replies: @AP, @reiner Tor

    , @AnonFromTN
    @reiner Tor

    Maybe we should also mention that Hitler had Waffen SS divisions composed of “innocent victims” from Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia. Yours is very selective reading of history, almost as twisted as that of Western MSM.

    Replies: @German_reader, @reiner Tor

  776. @reiner Tor
    @Beckow


    Slovaks were significantly more oppressed by Magyars pre-1918: Balts had schools in their own languages under the Soviets, Magyars worked hard to suppress them. Balts had regional autonomy (actual federal states), Magyars screamed that even talking about autonomy for the other nationalities was treason. Absolutely, it is not even close, Magyars were much worse.
     
    Except Magyars never mass deported Slovaks, nor did they settle masses of Magyars in Slovakia to change the ethnic composition. The Soviets deported some 10% of the Baltic population (well over 10% in the case of Estonia), killed maybe 1-2% or more, and then settled Russians equivalent to 20-30% of the population (more in the case of Estonia and Latvia).

    Replies: @Beckow, @AnonFromTN

    I am very skeptical of your numbers. There was clearly a lot of people moving around, it was a single country after all, same as Habsburg Empire pre-1918. The numbers that the revenge-seeking nationalists throw around today are political numbers, they define everything as ‘deportation’ or ‘settlers’, while many were probably what one would call today migrants seeking better opportunities.

    Russians lived in the Baltic for centuries, with heavy industry a lot more came. Magyars moved 20,000 people to southern Slovakia the moment they occupied it in 1938, hundreds of thousands of Slovaks emigrated – I can equally claim that they emigrated because of Magyar oppression, many of them certainly did, they said so. Magyars also shot some people and imprisoned anyone who resisted or had ideas about national autonomy.

    And a key distinction – Magyars tried to suppress national languages and schools, and refused to even consider any kind of ethnic autonomy. Soviets gave Balts their own federal states, with their own schools and universities, leaders, culture, etc… nobody was ever prosecuted for speaking Estonian. In my view, Magyars were much worse. Where is your sympathy for their victims?

    • Replies: @AP
    @Beckow


    Soviets gave Balts their own federal states, with their own schools and universities, leaders, culture, etc… nobody was ever prosecuted for speaking Estonian
     
    Soviet didn't "give" these things, they took over previously independent states.

    Replies: @Beckow

    , @reiner Tor
    @Beckow


    I am very skeptical of your numbers.
     
    Who cares? It's obvious that you have never been interested in history enough to read scholarly works on this (or probably any other) subject, and get most of your knowledge from reading online or maybe some newspaper and magazine articles on the subject.

    Magyars moved 20,000 people to southern Slovakia
     
    Most of them were those who moved out after 1918. And Czechoslovakia started a policy of deliberately settling Slovaks and even Czechs in ethnically Hungarian areas after 1920, so I'm not sure how you can complain about it. Anyway, the number is minuscule relative to the number of Russians settled in Estonia - several hundreds of thousands vs. 20,000. (Both areas had below 1 million inhabitants.)

    hundreds of thousands of Slovaks emigrated
     
    You pulled this number out of your ass. Not even all of those moved out who moved in after 1920.
  777. @AP
    @AnonFromTN


    considering that they have millions of Ukrainians working illegally
     
    Usual nonsense. Ukrainians do not need visas to work for up to 6 months in Poland; those millions of Ukrainians working in Poland do so legally. You should know what you are writing about without spreading nonsense.

    In addition, longer work permits are easy to get; a few 100,000s of Ukrainians have them in Poland. One of my friends owns a rental apartment in Warsaw; the real estate agent who manages this is a Ukrainian from Lviv. There are now cops in Poland who are from Ukraine.

    My point is, by hook or by crook, Ukrainians will try to remain in Poland
     
    More nonsense. Most work there legally temporarily, and come back. Since Polish wages are 4 times those of Ukraine, a lot of people will work for 6 months, come home for six months, and go back. Some only go once. One of my cousins (from Poltava oblast, where the economy has gotten worse) went to Poland for about 6 months, after his bride became pregnant. He returned with nice savings (nearly 2 years Ukrainian wages) for the new family, but does not plan to be away from them again.

    Ukrainians will try to remain in Poland, as their country is not fit for human living.
     
    Lviv is more pleasant than is your Nashville (I have visited both).

    Here is Ukraine, which in Anon in TN's twisted world is "not fit for human living":

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDWAobR8U0c&t=3006s

    Replies: @Dmitry

    Beauty of architecture in Lvov, is irrelevant to the fact most young people cannot ever have even close to a normal salary in Ukraine, even adjusted to cost of living.

    It’s the same situation for most young people in Russia outside a few cities and professions, but for Ukraine it’s even worse (which can give you some perspective).

    Every Pole I know – has said life in Poland is “impossible” because of the low salaries in Poland.

    And yet, Poland is considered a high salary paradise for the young people in Ukraine.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Dmitry


    Beauty of architecture in Lvov, is irrelevant to the fact most young people cannot ever have even close to a normal salary in Ukraine, even adjusted to cost of living.
     
    What do you mean by normal salary? Enough to eat, buy clothes, go to a cafe or theater with friends, maybe go on holiday to the beach or the mountains once a year or every other year? Plenty of people in Ukraine can do that. There are plenty of restaurants in Ukraine, full of people. People are not dressed in rags. They work, raise families.

    I posted videos of Lviv, or even provincial places like Vynnytsia. Looks like normal life - do you disagree?

    But if by "normal salary" you mean buying a new Western or Japanese car or vacationing in the West, Thailand, etc? Not yet for most people.

    Every Pole I know – has said life in Poland is “impossible” because of the low salaries in Poland.
     
    People everywhere can complain. I make six figures but I wish I could make more. So? And if I didn't have kids and there existed a country where I could make 4x more I might go there for 6 months, it would be a great adventure. This doesn't mean my situation is bad. Likewise for Poland, and to an extent for Ukraine. Young people without family ties will be tempted to move somewhere where they can make four times more, regardless of how good their current situation is.

    One of my cousins moved back to the Lviv, after she got a Canadian passport (Ukraine of course does not know this, it doesn't allow dual citizenship so she travels through a third country when using both passports). She likes life much better there.

    Replies: @Dmitry

  778. @AnonFromTN
    @Dmitry

    Yes, Poland tries hard to prevent Ukrainians from overstaying their student visas. But considering that they have millions of Ukrainians working illegally, this is about as pointless as tougher new US visa rules at the time when millions of Latinos cross Southern border illegally. I know (via Skype) only one Ukrainian who got Polish student visa, but he was smart enough to get a fake document attesting to his Polish ancestry, so he hopes to get the Polish card (карта поляка) and never return. Nowadays you can buy “proof” of your Polish ancestry in Ukraine, various fraudsters charge from $2,000 to $10,000 for it (depending on client stupidity and their arrogance). My point is, by hook or by crook, Ukrainians will try to remain in Poland, as their country is not fit for human living. Considering that Poles run to the Western Europe in droves, snatching low-level jobs, this tells you a lot about Ukraine.

    As to Ukraine joining the EU, this is best described by a recent joke:
    - When Ukraine will join the EU?
    - Right after Turkey.
    - And when Turkey will join the EU?
    - Never.

    Replies: @AP, @Dmitry

    What I heard is that it is very difficult to stay in Poland after the expiration of the student visa.

    Poland is apparently quite strict to enforcing this. So they have vast numbers of Ukrainians coming, but they are sending them home after the expiration of the visa.

    I talked recently to a Ukrainian student, attached to a university in Poland.

    The working visa to stay in Poland after the end of the university studies, would apparently be more difficult than to apply for a visa in Western Europe. So they view Western Europe as the long-term plan, if they can attain sufficient qualifications for the jobs.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    @Dmitry

    I’d say 15 years is a very optimistic assessment.

    Replies: @Dmitry

  779. @Beckow
    @reiner Tor

    I am very skeptical of your numbers. There was clearly a lot of people moving around, it was a single country after all, same as Habsburg Empire pre-1918. The numbers that the revenge-seeking nationalists throw around today are political numbers, they define everything as 'deportation' or 'settlers', while many were probably what one would call today migrants seeking better opportunities.

    Russians lived in the Baltic for centuries, with heavy industry a lot more came. Magyars moved 20,000 people to southern Slovakia the moment they occupied it in 1938, hundreds of thousands of Slovaks emigrated - I can equally claim that they emigrated because of Magyar oppression, many of them certainly did, they said so. Magyars also shot some people and imprisoned anyone who resisted or had ideas about national autonomy.

    And a key distinction - Magyars tried to suppress national languages and schools, and refused to even consider any kind of ethnic autonomy. Soviets gave Balts their own federal states, with their own schools and universities, leaders, culture, etc... nobody was ever prosecuted for speaking Estonian. In my view, Magyars were much worse. Where is your sympathy for their victims?

    Replies: @AP, @reiner Tor

    Soviets gave Balts their own federal states, with their own schools and universities, leaders, culture, etc… nobody was ever prosecuted for speaking Estonian

    Soviet didn’t “give” these things, they took over previously independent states.

    • Replies: @Beckow
    @AP

    They took over previously independent states and turned them into federal states in Soviet Union. The official languages stayed Estonian-Latvian, the education was in the native languages, etc... I noticed that some here pretend that wasn't the case, never mention the actual state and allude to all kinds of nefarious nonsense - I wouldn't be surprised if half of Western intellectuals actually believed that the Estonian language was banned, the leaders were all imported from Russia, and locals could only speak in Estonian at home. Lying by omission...

    Replies: @AnonFromTN, @AP

  780. @Dmitry
    @AP

    Beauty of architecture in Lvov, is irrelevant to the fact most young people cannot ever have even close to a normal salary in Ukraine, even adjusted to cost of living.

    It's the same situation for most young people in Russia outside a few cities and professions, but for Ukraine it's even worse (which can give you some perspective).

    -

    Every Pole I know - has said life in Poland is "impossible" because of the low salaries in Poland.

    And yet, Poland is considered a high salary paradise for the young people in Ukraine.

    Replies: @AP

    Beauty of architecture in Lvov, is irrelevant to the fact most young people cannot ever have even close to a normal salary in Ukraine, even adjusted to cost of living.

    What do you mean by normal salary? Enough to eat, buy clothes, go to a cafe or theater with friends, maybe go on holiday to the beach or the mountains once a year or every other year? Plenty of people in Ukraine can do that. There are plenty of restaurants in Ukraine, full of people. People are not dressed in rags. They work, raise families.

    I posted videos of Lviv, or even provincial places like Vynnytsia. Looks like normal life – do you disagree?

    But if by “normal salary” you mean buying a new Western or Japanese car or vacationing in the West, Thailand, etc? Not yet for most people.

    Every Pole I know – has said life in Poland is “impossible” because of the low salaries in Poland.

    People everywhere can complain. I make six figures but I wish I could make more. So? And if I didn’t have kids and there existed a country where I could make 4x more I might go there for 6 months, it would be a great adventure. This doesn’t mean my situation is bad. Likewise for Poland, and to an extent for Ukraine. Young people without family ties will be tempted to move somewhere where they can make four times more, regardless of how good their current situation is.

    One of my cousins moved back to the Lviv, after she got a Canadian passport (Ukraine of course does not know this, it doesn’t allow dual citizenship so she travels through a third country when using both passports). She likes life much better there.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @AP


    you mean by normal salary?
     
    Salary where you don't receive 8 times less for the same hours, as the equally qualified worker in Germany or the UK.

    I'm not saying this is an immediate realistic objective for Ukraine, or even to happen in Russia (outside some cities and professions) very soon.

    But it is a fact that the salary in Ukraine sucks and the best way to have a normal working life, will be to leave the country.


    There are plenty of restaurants in Ukraine, full of people.

     

    Sure, and even there is also plenty of very rich people - and Maseratis - in Ukraine as well. But it's rarely from normal professional development.

    posted videos of Lviv, or even provincial places like Vynnytsia. Looks like normal life – do you disagree?
     
    You can also post videos of beautiful architecture in Buenos Aires.

    Both Lvov and Buenos Aires are cases where there was great wealth and investment in the 19th century, when the buildings were constructed.

    So visually the impression is of a very wealthy city, with its architecture like Paris and Vienna - but you are looking at past wealth, and such architecture could give visitors a misleading impression of the economic situation of its current residents.


    People everywhere can complain. I make six figures
     
    So your income is equivalent of maybe 20 young Ukrainians (i.e. people with ordinary jobs, outside certain professions).

    Replies: @AP

  781. @AP
    @Beckow


    Soviets gave Balts their own federal states, with their own schools and universities, leaders, culture, etc… nobody was ever prosecuted for speaking Estonian
     
    Soviet didn't "give" these things, they took over previously independent states.

    Replies: @Beckow

    They took over previously independent states and turned them into federal states in Soviet Union. The official languages stayed Estonian-Latvian, the education was in the native languages, etc… I noticed that some here pretend that wasn’t the case, never mention the actual state and allude to all kinds of nefarious nonsense – I wouldn’t be surprised if half of Western intellectuals actually believed that the Estonian language was banned, the leaders were all imported from Russia, and locals could only speak in Estonian at home. Lying by omission…

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    @Beckow

    Well, the same lies are spread by Ukies about Ukraine in Soviet period. I went to school in Ukrainian SSR in Lugansk, where fewer than 5% of the population speaks Ukrainian, and we had obligatory classes in Ukrainian language (twice a week) and Ukrainian literature (also twice a week). My Ukrainian teacher loved me (and even insisted on adding a laudatory line to my school graduation document) because I was the only person in a class of 40+ kids who could speak proper Ukrainian (because I was born in Lvov and lived several years near it, where I communicated with local kids in one of the Western Ukrainian dialects, and because my father edited local newspaper that was published in literary Ukrainian).

    Replies: @AP

    , @AP
    @Beckow


    They took over previously independent states and turned them into federal states in Soviet Union.
     
    Yes, essentially provinces under Moscow's tight control. So tight that ~10% were deported and 1%-2% were murdered, and the place was flooded with settlers. But the terrorized victims could still be forced to learn about how great their bloodthirsty occupier was in their native language so in Beckow's world what Baltics endured was somehow better than what Slovaks experienced under Hungary.

    I noticed that some here pretend that wasn’t the case,
     
    Who? Nobody here denied this.
  782. @reiner Tor
    @AnonFromTN


    Once in a century, Europe unites, makes war on Russia, gets beaten to pulp
     
    That's a pretty bad understanding of history. It's based on two cases, neither of which represented Europe "uniting" in any real way. In both cases the Anglos actually supported Russia (so maybe an equal case could be made that "once in a century, Anglos and Russians unite against the dominant European power to destroy it"), while the forces joining the dominant power were unwilling and/or low quality. (For example under Napoleon many Prussians left their armed forces to avoid serving Napoleon - which is why 1812-13 saw a certain General Carl von Clausewitz in the service of the Russian Tsar. You can imagine the enthusiasm shown by such forces.)

    Replies: @Kent Nationalist, @German_reader, @AnonFromTN

    Were Hitler’s forces also unenthusiastic? He had Waffen SS divisions from Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Ukraine, as well as volunteers from Poland, France, and Spain, to name just a few countries.

    You are right that wily UK always managed to be on the winning side, both times doing as little fighting as humanely possible. I wouldn’t be surprised if it repeats this fit in the 21st century.

  783. @German_reader
    @reiner Tor


    That’s a pretty bad understanding of history.
     
    One reads that fairly often by Russians on Unz review (Martyanov just made the same argument a few days ago on some other thread), and I always wonder what it's supposed to be on. tbh at this point I believe it's the result of commie conditioning about the irredeemable hostility of the capitalist-imperialist world, with the explicitly socialist parts having faded away over the last 30 years. But it's a very selective reading of the historical record in any case.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

    Please answer in a non-selective way two questions:
    1. Which country crushed the bulk of Napoleon army?
    2. Which country crushed the bulk of Hitler’s army?
    While you are at it, you might also mention the countries that folded or ran away with their tails between their legs in both cases.

    Also, FYI, Tsarist Russia that defeated Napoleon has nothing “socialist” about it.

    Present-day Russia, which turned the tide of civil war in Syria against the terrorists, also has nothing “socialist” about it (as Russian commies never fail to state in their endless complaints).

  784. @Beckow
    @AP

    They took over previously independent states and turned them into federal states in Soviet Union. The official languages stayed Estonian-Latvian, the education was in the native languages, etc... I noticed that some here pretend that wasn't the case, never mention the actual state and allude to all kinds of nefarious nonsense - I wouldn't be surprised if half of Western intellectuals actually believed that the Estonian language was banned, the leaders were all imported from Russia, and locals could only speak in Estonian at home. Lying by omission...

    Replies: @AnonFromTN, @AP

    Well, the same lies are spread by Ukies about Ukraine in Soviet period. I went to school in Ukrainian SSR in Lugansk, where fewer than 5% of the population speaks Ukrainian, and we had obligatory classes in Ukrainian language (twice a week) and Ukrainian literature (also twice a week). My Ukrainian teacher loved me (and even insisted on adding a laudatory line to my school graduation document) because I was the only person in a class of 40+ kids who could speak proper Ukrainian (because I was born in Lvov and lived several years near it, where I communicated with local kids in one of the Western Ukrainian dialects, and because my father edited local newspaper that was published in literary Ukrainian).

    • Replies: @AP
    @AnonFromTN


    I went to school in Ukrainian SSR in Lugansk, where fewer than 5% of the population speaks Ukrainian, and we had obligatory classes in Ukrainian language (twice a week) and Ukrainian literature (also twice a week).
     
    I wonder how Americans would feel if in California or Arizona there were schools where English was taught two days a week.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

  785. @reiner Tor
    @Beckow


    Slovaks were significantly more oppressed by Magyars pre-1918: Balts had schools in their own languages under the Soviets, Magyars worked hard to suppress them. Balts had regional autonomy (actual federal states), Magyars screamed that even talking about autonomy for the other nationalities was treason. Absolutely, it is not even close, Magyars were much worse.
     
    Except Magyars never mass deported Slovaks, nor did they settle masses of Magyars in Slovakia to change the ethnic composition. The Soviets deported some 10% of the Baltic population (well over 10% in the case of Estonia), killed maybe 1-2% or more, and then settled Russians equivalent to 20-30% of the population (more in the case of Estonia and Latvia).

    Replies: @Beckow, @AnonFromTN

    Maybe we should also mention that Hitler had Waffen SS divisions composed of “innocent victims” from Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia. Yours is very selective reading of history, almost as twisted as that of Western MSM.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @AnonFromTN


    Maybe we should also mention that Hitler had Waffen SS divisions composed of “innocent victims” from Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia.
     
    Yes, but the Soviet annexation and NKVD terror in 1940/41 happened before that. There would probably have been significantly less collaboration with the Germans without that background. Nationalists in the Baltic states were traditionally anti-German. The Soviet Union did a great job of creating its own enemies.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

    , @reiner Tor
    @AnonFromTN

    I'm aware that despite there being conscription for the Waffen-SS in the Baltic states, there were relatively few Baltic soldiers in the Waffen-SS. I'm not sure you're aware of that fact.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

  786. German_reader says:
    @AnonFromTN
    @reiner Tor

    Maybe we should also mention that Hitler had Waffen SS divisions composed of “innocent victims” from Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia. Yours is very selective reading of history, almost as twisted as that of Western MSM.

    Replies: @German_reader, @reiner Tor

    Maybe we should also mention that Hitler had Waffen SS divisions composed of “innocent victims” from Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia.

    Yes, but the Soviet annexation and NKVD terror in 1940/41 happened before that. There would probably have been significantly less collaboration with the Germans without that background. Nationalists in the Baltic states were traditionally anti-German. The Soviet Union did a great job of creating its own enemies.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    @German_reader

    You need a sense of proportion. Combined population of the three Baltic midgets is much smaller than the population of Moscow.

    Replies: @German_reader

  787. @Dmitry
    @AnonFromTN

    What I heard is that it is very difficult to stay in Poland after the expiration of the student visa.

    Poland is apparently quite strict to enforcing this. So they have vast numbers of Ukrainians coming, but they are sending them home after the expiration of the visa.

    I talked recently to a Ukrainian student, attached to a university in Poland.

    The working visa to stay in Poland after the end of the university studies, would apparently be more difficult than to apply for a visa in Western Europe. So they view Western Europe as the long-term plan, if they can attain sufficient qualifications for the jobs.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

    I’d say 15 years is a very optimistic assessment.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @AnonFromTN

    I don't follow this topic, as it is not interesting to me. (EU membership application of Ukraine)


    -


    But if we look at the most similar kind of example - Romania?

    Romania signs for EU accession in 1993, and formally applies in 1995.

    It becomes EU member in 2007.

    So, it's only 12-14 years for Romania.

    -

    Another similar example might be Serbia. Serbia sends its application for EU membership around 2010.

    It now receives 3 billion Euros from the EU in pre-accession aid.

    And EU now says it wants to accept Serbia around 2025.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

  788. @German_reader
    @AnonFromTN


    Maybe we should also mention that Hitler had Waffen SS divisions composed of “innocent victims” from Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia.
     
    Yes, but the Soviet annexation and NKVD terror in 1940/41 happened before that. There would probably have been significantly less collaboration with the Germans without that background. Nationalists in the Baltic states were traditionally anti-German. The Soviet Union did a great job of creating its own enemies.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

    You need a sense of proportion. Combined population of the three Baltic midgets is much smaller than the population of Moscow.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @AnonFromTN

    Yes, but you just mentioned them as if they had been an important component of that huge anti-Russian alliance supposedly encompassing all of Europe in WW2.
    Kind of defeats your own argument when the best examples you can come up with are collaborators from Soviet territories (!) and a few tens of thousands of fascist volunteers from Western Europe who were militarily insignificant. You could at least have mentioned major German allies like Hungary, Romania and Italy (though you would still be wrong even then).

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

  789. @AP
    @Dmitry


    Beauty of architecture in Lvov, is irrelevant to the fact most young people cannot ever have even close to a normal salary in Ukraine, even adjusted to cost of living.
     
    What do you mean by normal salary? Enough to eat, buy clothes, go to a cafe or theater with friends, maybe go on holiday to the beach or the mountains once a year or every other year? Plenty of people in Ukraine can do that. There are plenty of restaurants in Ukraine, full of people. People are not dressed in rags. They work, raise families.

    I posted videos of Lviv, or even provincial places like Vynnytsia. Looks like normal life - do you disagree?

    But if by "normal salary" you mean buying a new Western or Japanese car or vacationing in the West, Thailand, etc? Not yet for most people.

    Every Pole I know – has said life in Poland is “impossible” because of the low salaries in Poland.
     
    People everywhere can complain. I make six figures but I wish I could make more. So? And if I didn't have kids and there existed a country where I could make 4x more I might go there for 6 months, it would be a great adventure. This doesn't mean my situation is bad. Likewise for Poland, and to an extent for Ukraine. Young people without family ties will be tempted to move somewhere where they can make four times more, regardless of how good their current situation is.

    One of my cousins moved back to the Lviv, after she got a Canadian passport (Ukraine of course does not know this, it doesn't allow dual citizenship so she travels through a third country when using both passports). She likes life much better there.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    you mean by normal salary?

    Salary where you don’t receive 8 times less for the same hours, as the equally qualified worker in Germany or the UK.

    I’m not saying this is an immediate realistic objective for Ukraine, or even to happen in Russia (outside some cities and professions) very soon.

    But it is a fact that the salary in Ukraine sucks and the best way to have a normal working life, will be to leave the country.

    There are plenty of restaurants in Ukraine, full of people.

    Sure, and even there is also plenty of very rich people – and Maseratis – in Ukraine as well. But it’s rarely from normal professional development.

    posted videos of Lviv, or even provincial places like Vynnytsia. Looks like normal life – do you disagree?

    You can also post videos of beautiful architecture in Buenos Aires.

    Both Lvov and Buenos Aires are cases where there was great wealth and investment in the 19th century, when the buildings were constructed.

    So visually the impression is of a very wealthy city, with its architecture like Paris and Vienna – but you are looking at past wealth, and such architecture could give visitors a misleading impression of the economic situation of its current residents.

    People everywhere can complain. I make six figures

    So your income is equivalent of maybe 20 young Ukrainians (i.e. people with ordinary jobs, outside certain professions).

    • Replies: @AP
    @Dmitry


    you mean by normal salary?

    Salary where you don’t receive 8 times less for the same hours, as the equally qualified worker in Germany or the UK.
     
    Irrelevant if you can have a normal day to day life.

    There are plenty of restaurants in Ukraine, full of people.

    Sure, and even there is also plenty of very rich people – and Maseratis – in Ukraine as well. But it’s rarely from normal professional development
     
    Going out to cafes, restaurants, theater, dressing normally, visiting the mountains, is not something rare in Lviv. Comparing such things to owning a Maserati is silly.

    posted videos of Lviv, or even provincial places like Vynnytsia. Looks like normal life – do you disagree?

    You can also post videos of beautiful architecture in Buenos Aires.
     
    Look more carefully. It's not just architecture, it is about people living normal lives. Cafes full of people, people are well dressed. It's just normal life.

    In 1991 it was not normal life. It was beautiful architecture but almost nothing open, long lines, and people looked like crap.

    Replies: @Dmitry

  790. German_reader says:
    @AnonFromTN
    @German_reader

    You need a sense of proportion. Combined population of the three Baltic midgets is much smaller than the population of Moscow.

    Replies: @German_reader

    Yes, but you just mentioned them as if they had been an important component of that huge anti-Russian alliance supposedly encompassing all of Europe in WW2.
    Kind of defeats your own argument when the best examples you can come up with are collaborators from Soviet territories (!) and a few tens of thousands of fascist volunteers from Western Europe who were militarily insignificant. You could at least have mentioned major German allies like Hungary, Romania and Italy (though you would still be wrong even then).

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    @German_reader

    I was replying to your comment about Baltics. When you deport criminals that constitute 10% of an insignificantly small part of the population and that part of the population gets offended, does it mean what you made it to mean?

    Replies: @German_reader

  791. @AnonFromTN
    @Dmitry

    I’d say 15 years is a very optimistic assessment.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    I don’t follow this topic, as it is not interesting to me. (EU membership application of Ukraine)

    But if we look at the most similar kind of example – Romania?

    Romania signs for EU accession in 1993, and formally applies in 1995.

    It becomes EU member in 2007.

    So, it’s only 12-14 years for Romania.

    Another similar example might be Serbia. Serbia sends its application for EU membership around 2010.

    It now receives 3 billion Euros from the EU in pre-accession aid.

    And EU now says it wants to accept Serbia around 2025.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    @Dmitry

    Another example is Turkey. It applied in 1987. Today is 2019, and no accession is in sight.

    Replies: @AP

  792. @German_reader
    @AnonFromTN

    Yes, but you just mentioned them as if they had been an important component of that huge anti-Russian alliance supposedly encompassing all of Europe in WW2.
    Kind of defeats your own argument when the best examples you can come up with are collaborators from Soviet territories (!) and a few tens of thousands of fascist volunteers from Western Europe who were militarily insignificant. You could at least have mentioned major German allies like Hungary, Romania and Italy (though you would still be wrong even then).

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

    I was replying to your comment about Baltics. When you deport criminals that constitute 10% of an insignificantly small part of the population and that part of the population gets offended, does it mean what you made it to mean?

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @AnonFromTN


    When you deport criminals that constitute 10% of an insignificantly small part of the population
     
    So you think those deported from the Baltic states were "criminals"?
    Wow, you're really a very Soviet person.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

  793. @Dmitry
    @AnonFromTN

    I don't follow this topic, as it is not interesting to me. (EU membership application of Ukraine)


    -


    But if we look at the most similar kind of example - Romania?

    Romania signs for EU accession in 1993, and formally applies in 1995.

    It becomes EU member in 2007.

    So, it's only 12-14 years for Romania.

    -

    Another similar example might be Serbia. Serbia sends its application for EU membership around 2010.

    It now receives 3 billion Euros from the EU in pre-accession aid.

    And EU now says it wants to accept Serbia around 2025.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

    Another example is Turkey. It applied in 1987. Today is 2019, and no accession is in sight.

    • Replies: @AP
    @AnonFromTN

    Where is Turkey and where is Ukraine? Is anyone in Europe desperate to bring Turkey in? Ukraine has an ally in Poland.

    Ukraine has a lot of cleaning up to do, and may not do it. But to think that Ukraine's chances are comparable to those of Turkey is absolutely ridiculous.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

  794. @AnonFromTN
    @German_reader

    I was replying to your comment about Baltics. When you deport criminals that constitute 10% of an insignificantly small part of the population and that part of the population gets offended, does it mean what you made it to mean?

    Replies: @German_reader

    When you deport criminals that constitute 10% of an insignificantly small part of the population

    So you think those deported from the Baltic states were “criminals”?
    Wow, you’re really a very Soviet person.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    @German_reader

    I was not even born back then, so I don’t know anything first hand. I know that in Stalin’s times many people were imprisoned or deported to inhospitable parts for no good reason. However, I am convinced that anyone who collaborated with Nazis was a criminal and should have been severely punished. I never thought that I would blame Stalin for excessive softness, but the fact that too many Nazi collaborators survived suggests that his regime was inappropriately soft where firmness was required.

    BTW, regarding your earlier mention of Romanians, Hungarians, and Italians. They all had very different reputations among Soviet people at the time. The areas occupied by Italians were considered lucky: Italians took food and alcohol from the locals, but never tortured, murdered, or raped them. Hungarians had a reputation of fierce fighters and sadistic occupiers. I was told that Soviet soldiers treated them the same way they treated Russian traitors: despite official orders, they did not take them prisoners (they took Germans prisoners), just shot them. Romanians are a whole different ball game. On the one hand, Romanian troops showed more cowardice than others. They even were afraid to enter Odessa for a few days after Soviet troops abandoned it. On the other hand, as occupiers they committed pretty much the same atrocities as Germans.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

  795. @German_reader
    @AnonFromTN


    When you deport criminals that constitute 10% of an insignificantly small part of the population
     
    So you think those deported from the Baltic states were "criminals"?
    Wow, you're really a very Soviet person.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

    I was not even born back then, so I don’t know anything first hand. I know that in Stalin’s times many people were imprisoned or deported to inhospitable parts for no good reason. However, I am convinced that anyone who collaborated with Nazis was a criminal and should have been severely punished. I never thought that I would blame Stalin for excessive softness, but the fact that too many Nazi collaborators survived suggests that his regime was inappropriately soft where firmness was required.

    BTW, regarding your earlier mention of Romanians, Hungarians, and Italians. They all had very different reputations among Soviet people at the time. The areas occupied by Italians were considered lucky: Italians took food and alcohol from the locals, but never tortured, murdered, or raped them. Hungarians had a reputation of fierce fighters and sadistic occupiers. I was told that Soviet soldiers treated them the same way they treated Russian traitors: despite official orders, they did not take them prisoners (they took Germans prisoners), just shot them. Romanians are a whole different ball game. On the one hand, Romanian troops showed more cowardice than others. They even were afraid to enter Odessa for a few days after Soviet troops abandoned it. On the other hand, as occupiers they committed pretty much the same atrocities as Germans.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @AnonFromTN

    What was wrong with Hitler? He was too soft, actually. He should've exterminated all who collaborated with Stalin, this would've included almost all Russians (when in fact the majority of Russians under German rule survived!), Jews (okay, he did what he could in that department), and other peoples of the USSR. And then he would've been as hard as AnonFromTN in his internet fantasies.


    Hungarians had a reputation of fierce fighters and sadistic occupiers.
     
    I'm not sure where the fierce fighter reputation came from. Only a few units were fierce (like the elite division "Szent László," which was created only at the end of the war, but from previously existing elite units), and most were of rather low quality. It must be noted that Hungary was only allowed to keep an army of 35,000 soldiers (including officers) until 1938, so the Hungarian Royal Army was very badly trained.

    The occupation was to my knowledge not very bad around Voronezh (where the frontline Second Hungarian Army high command tried to build a better relationship with the population behind the front), but it was horrible everywhere else. (Please note that unlike around Voronezh, everywhere else the troops on occupation duty were of lower quality, not frontline units, they were even more badly trained and worse equipped than the Second Army, and they were in general prone to cruelty - by a lot of measures actually more cruel than the Germans. This was because they really didn't know how to fight the partisans - who were very cruel themselves - and so tried to make the population fear them even more than the partisans, with only partial success at best.)

    Anyway, Hungary or Romania are very small countries, most European countries contributed next to nothing to the German campaign against Soviet Russia.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

  796. @AnonFromTN
    @Beckow

    Well, the same lies are spread by Ukies about Ukraine in Soviet period. I went to school in Ukrainian SSR in Lugansk, where fewer than 5% of the population speaks Ukrainian, and we had obligatory classes in Ukrainian language (twice a week) and Ukrainian literature (also twice a week). My Ukrainian teacher loved me (and even insisted on adding a laudatory line to my school graduation document) because I was the only person in a class of 40+ kids who could speak proper Ukrainian (because I was born in Lvov and lived several years near it, where I communicated with local kids in one of the Western Ukrainian dialects, and because my father edited local newspaper that was published in literary Ukrainian).

    Replies: @AP

    I went to school in Ukrainian SSR in Lugansk, where fewer than 5% of the population speaks Ukrainian, and we had obligatory classes in Ukrainian language (twice a week) and Ukrainian literature (also twice a week).

    I wonder how Americans would feel if in California or Arizona there were schools where English was taught two days a week.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    @AP

    Don’t you think that a bit more than 5% of California population speaks English? If that number was 5%, four classes a week would be four too many.

    Replies: @AP

  797. @AP
    @AnonFromTN


    I went to school in Ukrainian SSR in Lugansk, where fewer than 5% of the population speaks Ukrainian, and we had obligatory classes in Ukrainian language (twice a week) and Ukrainian literature (also twice a week).
     
    I wonder how Americans would feel if in California or Arizona there were schools where English was taught two days a week.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

    Don’t you think that a bit more than 5% of California population speaks English? If that number was 5%, four classes a week would be four too many.

    • Replies: @AP
    @AnonFromTN


    Don’t you think that a bit more than 5% of California population speaks English?
     
    There are parts where it is 5%. Also parts of Texas, Miami, etc.

    If that number was 5%, four classes a week would be four too many.
     
    America let in an immigrant who wants to fully Mexicanize parts of the country.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

  798. @Dmitry
    @AP


    you mean by normal salary?
     
    Salary where you don't receive 8 times less for the same hours, as the equally qualified worker in Germany or the UK.

    I'm not saying this is an immediate realistic objective for Ukraine, or even to happen in Russia (outside some cities and professions) very soon.

    But it is a fact that the salary in Ukraine sucks and the best way to have a normal working life, will be to leave the country.


    There are plenty of restaurants in Ukraine, full of people.

     

    Sure, and even there is also plenty of very rich people - and Maseratis - in Ukraine as well. But it's rarely from normal professional development.

    posted videos of Lviv, or even provincial places like Vynnytsia. Looks like normal life – do you disagree?
     
    You can also post videos of beautiful architecture in Buenos Aires.

    Both Lvov and Buenos Aires are cases where there was great wealth and investment in the 19th century, when the buildings were constructed.

    So visually the impression is of a very wealthy city, with its architecture like Paris and Vienna - but you are looking at past wealth, and such architecture could give visitors a misleading impression of the economic situation of its current residents.


    People everywhere can complain. I make six figures
     
    So your income is equivalent of maybe 20 young Ukrainians (i.e. people with ordinary jobs, outside certain professions).

    Replies: @AP

    you mean by normal salary?

    Salary where you don’t receive 8 times less for the same hours, as the equally qualified worker in Germany or the UK.

    Irrelevant if you can have a normal day to day life.

    There are plenty of restaurants in Ukraine, full of people.

    Sure, and even there is also plenty of very rich people – and Maseratis – in Ukraine as well. But it’s rarely from normal professional development

    Going out to cafes, restaurants, theater, dressing normally, visiting the mountains, is not something rare in Lviv. Comparing such things to owning a Maserati is silly.

    posted videos of Lviv, or even provincial places like Vynnytsia. Looks like normal life – do you disagree?

    You can also post videos of beautiful architecture in Buenos Aires.

    Look more carefully. It’s not just architecture, it is about people living normal lives. Cafes full of people, people are well dressed. It’s just normal life.

    In 1991 it was not normal life. It was beautiful architecture but almost nothing open, long lines, and people looked like crap.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @AP


    can have a normal day to day life.
     
    To work 500 hours, to buy an acceptable laptop...

    Your salary is 20 times higher than ordinary jobs Lvov. Perhaps you can be Francis of Assisi, and reject your wealth, donate to 20 people Lvov - and then write about how your day to day life is.


    Going out to cafes, restaurants, theater, dressing normally, visiting the mountains, is not something rare in Lviv. Comparing such things to owning a Maserati is silly.
     
    A significant proportion of people won't afford to go to restaurants, cafes. In this video, we are looking at people with leisure.

    Look in the video comments - there's even Turkish hipsters who recognize themselves in the video.


    Look more carefully. It’s not just architecture, it is about people living normal lives. Cafes full of people, people are well dressed. It’s just normal life.

    In 1991 it was not normal life. It was beautiful architecture but almost nothing open, long lines, and people looked like crap.
     

    Although I also love watching such travel videos on YouTube, it is not a very reliable way to measure economic distress, especially for cities like Lvov - with luxurious 19th century architecture that has no relation to current economic level (and would cost billions of dollar to construct today).

    You could just as easily find videos of less prestigious districts of Kiev.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kUlEcDh6X0

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Be6sYeTQtaY

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGAqPnsNS50

    And in Argentina, if you walk in central areas of the city, you might assume that Buenos Aires doesn't have the poverty it is famous for.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-ycjoGGyLo

    Replies: @AP

  799. @AnonFromTN
    @AP

    Don’t you think that a bit more than 5% of California population speaks English? If that number was 5%, four classes a week would be four too many.

    Replies: @AP

    Don’t you think that a bit more than 5% of California population speaks English?

    There are parts where it is 5%. Also parts of Texas, Miami, etc.

    If that number was 5%, four classes a week would be four too many.

    America let in an immigrant who wants to fully Mexicanize parts of the country.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    @AP

    Here is the reality: in California, Arizona, Texas, and a few other states 20-40% of kids speak Spanish as their first language. There are no obligatory classes of Spanish for all kids in these states, and that is right. In California a sizable fraction of the population (maybe a bit less than 5%, maybe more) speaks Chinese, Korean, or Armenian. There are no obligatory classes of these languages for all school kids, and that is right. Yet in Lugansk and Donetsk in Soviet times there were obligatory classes of Ukrainian for all school kids, even though very few people in those areas spoke Ukrainian as their first or even second language. That was forcible Ukrainization (which, like all programs of that kind, failed miserably).

  800. @AnonFromTN
    @Dmitry

    Another example is Turkey. It applied in 1987. Today is 2019, and no accession is in sight.

    Replies: @AP

    Where is Turkey and where is Ukraine? Is anyone in Europe desperate to bring Turkey in? Ukraine has an ally in Poland.

    Ukraine has a lot of cleaning up to do, and may not do it. But to think that Ukraine’s chances are comparable to those of Turkey is absolutely ridiculous.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    @AP

    Poland is a great “ally” of Ukraine, especially now that Polish Parliament declared Volhynia massacre genocide (https://www.rferl.org/a/poland-parliament-declares-volyn-massacres-/27874252.html). That’s like saying that Armenia is a great ally of Turkey. LOL.

    Replies: @AP

  801. @Beckow
    @AP

    They took over previously independent states and turned them into federal states in Soviet Union. The official languages stayed Estonian-Latvian, the education was in the native languages, etc... I noticed that some here pretend that wasn't the case, never mention the actual state and allude to all kinds of nefarious nonsense - I wouldn't be surprised if half of Western intellectuals actually believed that the Estonian language was banned, the leaders were all imported from Russia, and locals could only speak in Estonian at home. Lying by omission...

    Replies: @AnonFromTN, @AP

    They took over previously independent states and turned them into federal states in Soviet Union.

    Yes, essentially provinces under Moscow’s tight control. So tight that ~10% were deported and 1%-2% were murdered, and the place was flooded with settlers. But the terrorized victims could still be forced to learn about how great their bloodthirsty occupier was in their native language so in Beckow’s world what Baltics endured was somehow better than what Slovaks experienced under Hungary.

    I noticed that some here pretend that wasn’t the case,

    Who? Nobody here denied this.

  802. @AnonFromTN
    @reiner Tor

    Maybe we should also mention that Hitler had Waffen SS divisions composed of “innocent victims” from Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia. Yours is very selective reading of history, almost as twisted as that of Western MSM.

    Replies: @German_reader, @reiner Tor

    I’m aware that despite there being conscription for the Waffen-SS in the Baltic states, there were relatively few Baltic soldiers in the Waffen-SS. I’m not sure you’re aware of that fact.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    @reiner Tor

    From a microscopic Latvia, there were two Waffen SS divisions: 15th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (1st Latvian) and 19th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (2nd Latvian). From even smaller Estonia, there was 20th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (1st Estonian). Yes, Germans failed to create Lithuanian Waffen SS division, so they were stuck with Lithuanian “Territorial Defense Force” (~ 40,000 soldiers).

    Replies: @reiner Tor

  803. @AnonFromTN
    @German_reader

    I was not even born back then, so I don’t know anything first hand. I know that in Stalin’s times many people were imprisoned or deported to inhospitable parts for no good reason. However, I am convinced that anyone who collaborated with Nazis was a criminal and should have been severely punished. I never thought that I would blame Stalin for excessive softness, but the fact that too many Nazi collaborators survived suggests that his regime was inappropriately soft where firmness was required.

    BTW, regarding your earlier mention of Romanians, Hungarians, and Italians. They all had very different reputations among Soviet people at the time. The areas occupied by Italians were considered lucky: Italians took food and alcohol from the locals, but never tortured, murdered, or raped them. Hungarians had a reputation of fierce fighters and sadistic occupiers. I was told that Soviet soldiers treated them the same way they treated Russian traitors: despite official orders, they did not take them prisoners (they took Germans prisoners), just shot them. Romanians are a whole different ball game. On the one hand, Romanian troops showed more cowardice than others. They even were afraid to enter Odessa for a few days after Soviet troops abandoned it. On the other hand, as occupiers they committed pretty much the same atrocities as Germans.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    What was wrong with Hitler? He was too soft, actually. He should’ve exterminated all who collaborated with Stalin, this would’ve included almost all Russians (when in fact the majority of Russians under German rule survived!), Jews (okay, he did what he could in that department), and other peoples of the USSR. And then he would’ve been as hard as AnonFromTN in his internet fantasies.

    Hungarians had a reputation of fierce fighters and sadistic occupiers.

    I’m not sure where the fierce fighter reputation came from. Only a few units were fierce (like the elite division “Szent László,” which was created only at the end of the war, but from previously existing elite units), and most were of rather low quality. It must be noted that Hungary was only allowed to keep an army of 35,000 soldiers (including officers) until 1938, so the Hungarian Royal Army was very badly trained.

    The occupation was to my knowledge not very bad around Voronezh (where the frontline Second Hungarian Army high command tried to build a better relationship with the population behind the front), but it was horrible everywhere else. (Please note that unlike around Voronezh, everywhere else the troops on occupation duty were of lower quality, not frontline units, they were even more badly trained and worse equipped than the Second Army, and they were in general prone to cruelty – by a lot of measures actually more cruel than the Germans. This was because they really didn’t know how to fight the partisans – who were very cruel themselves – and so tried to make the population fear them even more than the partisans, with only partial success at best.)

    Anyway, Hungary or Romania are very small countries, most European countries contributed next to nothing to the German campaign against Soviet Russia.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    @reiner Tor

    Yes, in the grand scheme of things Germans were the only military force Soviet Army had to recon with. As to attempting to exterminate everyone who collaborated with Stalin, Germans did their level best. When Germans took Soviet military personnel prisoners, they identified all officers, communists, and Jews, and shot those on the spot. Nazi treatment of locals on the occupied territories is actually the reason why so many Soviet citizens joined partisan units or supported resistance fighters in different ways. As memoirs of many German officers showed, Nazi occupiers felt exactly like Americans in Vietnam: there are no non-combatants, every local is an enemy. No wonder that the results were essentially the same.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

  804. @reiner Tor
    @Beckow


    Nobel Prize is a trademark. Yes, there are distinctions, but once they went with Obama, there is no way to get back the good name.
     
    Well, you can say that Mercedes-Benz used to be highly reliable and a splendid car, but now it's an over-engineered piece of crap. Or that diesel Mazdas are nowhere near as reliable as gasoline Mazdas.

    Nobel Prizes are just one data point. There are other data points, like Swiss lead in several hi technology industries, things like optical equipment etc. They built up these while Switzerland was still a relatively poor country.

    But of course you can believe whatever you like.

    I get an uncomfortable feeling
     
    Why does it matter what you feel? It's pretty obvious that ww2 is not something you are interested in, and that you base your opinions pretty much on your feelings. I've read at least a couple hundred books on the subject (broadly understood, including several books on the holocaust etc.), even more if we include books on Stalinism or the whole 1914-45 era. I have read several military history treatises as well. Feel free not to believe that I base my opinions on what I think is true.

    it wasn’t ‘Hitler’ who set un-winnable goals, it was the whole country
     
    That's wrong as well. Most Germans certainly didn't want any war, let alone an ultimately disastrous world war. It's well known that German crowds were absent when Hitler announced the war (unlike in 1914, when all major capitals had huge or at least moderately sized crowds celebrating...), and most Germans reported unease when Goebbels announced the war against the USSR. Of course, had Hitler won, they'd have been more than happy to become the Herrenvolk of the Thousand Year Reich, but they weren't eager at all to fight a huge war for it. My pretty firm opinion is that Hitler already had enough after Munich, and other than very minor border changes (Memel, maybe Danzig..?) he shouldn't have tried to grab more.

    this pattern seems to repeat itself
     
    Which pattern?

    talk tough, talk efficiency, call each other names, invent irreconcilable differences, and eventually start shooting
     
    I'm not sure what "talk efficiency" does in that list. Yes, it's problem to start a propaganda war and then a shooting war for no good reasons.

    Replies: @Beckow

    Germans certainly didn’t want any war, let alone an ultimately disastrous world war…they weren’t eager to fight a huge war for it

    But they did fight it, losing millions of lives. I dismiss assumed motivations or what ‘people want‘ – how can we possibly know? With all due respect the effort Germany put into WWII couldn’t be because one man, Hitler, and a few people around him wanted to fight a war. That’s simple logic. Yeah, in retrospect people disown failures, that’s human nature.

    talk efficiency‘ refers to an annoying Western habit of cherrypicking minutia and boasting about the ‘efficiency’ of even their losses. It is a transparent way to make themselves feel better about the losses, it is rather sad. Russians won, period. (And that word ‘feel’ again, sorry to use it since we are all so rational here, right?)

    You and I agree on more than what we disagree on. We differ in our national perspective, and that’s not fixable, too bad. I have always said that the real Achilles heel of nationalism is that it often ends up focusing on mutual disagreements, dislikes and historical grievances. As you can see, if you press me I will respond in kind. And that’s how we end up with mushy liberal bs that is all around us – ladies don’t like conflicts, and it is down hill from there.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @Beckow

    Germany was an organized state which executed tens of thousands of soldiers unwilling to fight. And it's not like they had that many opportunities, captivity was horrible for Germans (especially on the Eastern Front).

    Germans would've been happy if Hitler won the war for them (who wouldn't? Slovaks would probably enjoy being Übermenschen either), but they didn't like the war.


    Western habit of cherrypicking minutia and boasting about the ‘efficiency’ of even their losses
     
    You are referring to the point that in the Second World War the German troops were, pound for pound, significantly better than Soviet troops. That's just a fact. You know nothing about that war, and just decided to base your opinions on feelz, so I cannot help you much. By the way I'm not even really a Westerner, and it's not like I was arguing that Hungarian (or American, for that matter) infantry were better than the Soviets. It was specifically the Germans (and the Finns) who were better.

    And that word ‘feel’ again, sorry to use it since we are all so rational here, right?
     
    It's not my job to decide who is more rational here, but certainly I know way more about topics like the Second World War, and so it's pretty logical that you base your opinions on feelz there.

    the real Achilles heel of nationalism is that it often ends up focusing on mutual disagreements, dislikes and historical grievances. As you can see, if you press me I will respond in kind.
     
    You brought up the Hungarian oppression of Slovaks, while having a disagreement over Balts. Why do you have to bring the evil Magyars into discussions about Balts?

    Replies: @Beckow

  805. @AP
    @Dmitry


    you mean by normal salary?

    Salary where you don’t receive 8 times less for the same hours, as the equally qualified worker in Germany or the UK.
     
    Irrelevant if you can have a normal day to day life.

    There are plenty of restaurants in Ukraine, full of people.

    Sure, and even there is also plenty of very rich people – and Maseratis – in Ukraine as well. But it’s rarely from normal professional development
     
    Going out to cafes, restaurants, theater, dressing normally, visiting the mountains, is not something rare in Lviv. Comparing such things to owning a Maserati is silly.

    posted videos of Lviv, or even provincial places like Vynnytsia. Looks like normal life – do you disagree?

    You can also post videos of beautiful architecture in Buenos Aires.
     
    Look more carefully. It's not just architecture, it is about people living normal lives. Cafes full of people, people are well dressed. It's just normal life.

    In 1991 it was not normal life. It was beautiful architecture but almost nothing open, long lines, and people looked like crap.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    can have a normal day to day life.

    To work 500 hours, to buy an acceptable laptop…

    Your salary is 20 times higher than ordinary jobs Lvov. Perhaps you can be Francis of Assisi, and reject your wealth, donate to 20 people Lvov – and then write about how your day to day life is.

    Going out to cafes, restaurants, theater, dressing normally, visiting the mountains, is not something rare in Lviv. Comparing such things to owning a Maserati is silly.

    A significant proportion of people won’t afford to go to restaurants, cafes. In this video, we are looking at people with leisure.

    Look in the video comments – there’s even Turkish hipsters who recognize themselves in the video.

    Look more carefully. It’s not just architecture, it is about people living normal lives. Cafes full of people, people are well dressed. It’s just normal life.

    In 1991 it was not normal life. It was beautiful architecture but almost nothing open, long lines, and people looked like crap.

    Although I also love watching such travel videos on YouTube, it is not a very reliable way to measure economic distress, especially for cities like Lvov – with luxurious 19th century architecture that has no relation to current economic level (and would cost billions of dollar to construct today).

    You could just as easily find videos of less prestigious districts of Kiev.

    And in Argentina, if you walk in central areas of the city, you might assume that Buenos Aires doesn’t have the poverty it is famous for.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Dmitry


    can have a normal day to day life.

    To work 500 hours, to buy an acceptable laptop…
     

    So now a laptop is necessary to live a "normal life?" LOL.

    As I said, to have food, clothes, clean place to live with some privacy, friends, be able to visit a cafe or the theater, be able to visit the mountains, this is normal life. People live a normal life in Lviv and in most of Ukraine, as is evident from the videos.


    A significant proportion of people won’t afford to go to restaurants, cafes. In this video, we are looking at people with leisure.

     

    Yes, people from Lviv can have leisure. Even if not all will buy a laptop :-)

    Look in the video comments – there’s even Turkish hipsters who recognize themselves in the video.
     
    Most of the language you hear on the streets and in cafes will be Ukrainian. So it is locals. Next most common is Russian - so tourists from other parts of Ukraine. There is some Polish and English but it's not flooded with those languages.

    I'm sure there are no tourists in Vynnytsia. Look - normal life:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFB6fbDsVK0

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oUwIpwgzS0

    Are many provincial Russian cities of similar size (~300,000 people) nicer than Vynnytsia?

    The crappy city of Khmelytsky. Taken in 2015, at the height of the post-Maidan economic crisis, in Ukraine's low point.. Still normal life:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kz3-FfcX6EA


    You could just as easily find videos of less prestigious districts of Kiev.
     
    Kiev has millions of people. You can find such places in any large city. Video of Lviv was all over the city.
  806. @AP
    @AnonFromTN


    Don’t you think that a bit more than 5% of California population speaks English?
     
    There are parts where it is 5%. Also parts of Texas, Miami, etc.

    If that number was 5%, four classes a week would be four too many.
     
    America let in an immigrant who wants to fully Mexicanize parts of the country.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

    Here is the reality: in California, Arizona, Texas, and a few other states 20-40% of kids speak Spanish as their first language. There are no obligatory classes of Spanish for all kids in these states, and that is right. In California a sizable fraction of the population (maybe a bit less than 5%, maybe more) speaks Chinese, Korean, or Armenian. There are no obligatory classes of these languages for all school kids, and that is right. Yet in Lugansk and Donetsk in Soviet times there were obligatory classes of Ukrainian for all school kids, even though very few people in those areas spoke Ukrainian as their first or even second language. That was forcible Ukrainization (which, like all programs of that kind, failed miserably).

  807. @reiner Tor
    @AnonFromTN

    I'm aware that despite there being conscription for the Waffen-SS in the Baltic states, there were relatively few Baltic soldiers in the Waffen-SS. I'm not sure you're aware of that fact.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

    From a microscopic Latvia, there were two Waffen SS divisions: 15th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (1st Latvian) and 19th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (2nd Latvian). From even smaller Estonia, there was 20th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (1st Estonian). Yes, Germans failed to create Lithuanian Waffen SS division, so they were stuck with Lithuanian “Territorial Defense Force” (~ 40,000 soldiers).

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @AnonFromTN

    By using words like "microscopic," you cannot conceal the fact that even with conscription, the Germans raised few divisions on a per capita basis from these countries (roughly 1 division per a million people in Latvia and Estonia), and even many of the troops they managed to raise (again, with conscription) failed to be enthusiastic enough to be sent to the frontline. This despite Balts having ample reason to hate the USSR due to the mass deportations the USSR did there in 1940-41.

    And to repeat, it's not like all the Balts who served with the Germans were volunteers, far from it.

    Replies: @German_reader

  808. @AP
    @AnonFromTN

    Where is Turkey and where is Ukraine? Is anyone in Europe desperate to bring Turkey in? Ukraine has an ally in Poland.

    Ukraine has a lot of cleaning up to do, and may not do it. But to think that Ukraine's chances are comparable to those of Turkey is absolutely ridiculous.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

    Poland is a great “ally” of Ukraine, especially now that Polish Parliament declared Volhynia massacre genocide (https://www.rferl.org/a/poland-parliament-declares-volyn-massacres-/27874252.html). That’s like saying that Armenia is a great ally of Turkey. LOL.

    • Replies: @AP
    @AnonFromTN

    Many Ukrainians themselves consider it a genocide. So? Poland invests in Ukraine, sends it military aid, promotes Ukrainian integration with the West.

    But your comparison to the Turkish-Armenian relationship is another example of your level of knowledge here.

  809. @reiner Tor
    @AnonFromTN

    What was wrong with Hitler? He was too soft, actually. He should've exterminated all who collaborated with Stalin, this would've included almost all Russians (when in fact the majority of Russians under German rule survived!), Jews (okay, he did what he could in that department), and other peoples of the USSR. And then he would've been as hard as AnonFromTN in his internet fantasies.


    Hungarians had a reputation of fierce fighters and sadistic occupiers.
     
    I'm not sure where the fierce fighter reputation came from. Only a few units were fierce (like the elite division "Szent László," which was created only at the end of the war, but from previously existing elite units), and most were of rather low quality. It must be noted that Hungary was only allowed to keep an army of 35,000 soldiers (including officers) until 1938, so the Hungarian Royal Army was very badly trained.

    The occupation was to my knowledge not very bad around Voronezh (where the frontline Second Hungarian Army high command tried to build a better relationship with the population behind the front), but it was horrible everywhere else. (Please note that unlike around Voronezh, everywhere else the troops on occupation duty were of lower quality, not frontline units, they were even more badly trained and worse equipped than the Second Army, and they were in general prone to cruelty - by a lot of measures actually more cruel than the Germans. This was because they really didn't know how to fight the partisans - who were very cruel themselves - and so tried to make the population fear them even more than the partisans, with only partial success at best.)

    Anyway, Hungary or Romania are very small countries, most European countries contributed next to nothing to the German campaign against Soviet Russia.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

    Yes, in the grand scheme of things Germans were the only military force Soviet Army had to recon with. As to attempting to exterminate everyone who collaborated with Stalin, Germans did their level best. When Germans took Soviet military personnel prisoners, they identified all officers, communists, and Jews, and shot those on the spot. Nazi treatment of locals on the occupied territories is actually the reason why so many Soviet citizens joined partisan units or supported resistance fighters in different ways. As memoirs of many German officers showed, Nazi occupiers felt exactly like Americans in Vietnam: there are no non-combatants, every local is an enemy. No wonder that the results were essentially the same.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @AnonFromTN


    Yes, in the grand scheme of things Germans were the only military force Soviet Army had to recon with.
     
    So there was no pan-European unity in attacking Russia, then. I'm happy you finally conceded this point.

    As to attempting to exterminate everyone who collaborated with Stalin, Germans did their level best.
     
    Well, they were not as hard as AnonFromTN (who complains about Stalin being too soft to the Balts) would've been.
  810. @AnonFromTN
    @AP

    Poland is a great “ally” of Ukraine, especially now that Polish Parliament declared Volhynia massacre genocide (https://www.rferl.org/a/poland-parliament-declares-volyn-massacres-/27874252.html). That’s like saying that Armenia is a great ally of Turkey. LOL.

    Replies: @AP

    Many Ukrainians themselves consider it a genocide. So? Poland invests in Ukraine, sends it military aid, promotes Ukrainian integration with the West.

    But your comparison to the Turkish-Armenian relationship is another example of your level of knowledge here.

  811. @Dmitry
    @AP


    can have a normal day to day life.
     
    To work 500 hours, to buy an acceptable laptop...

    Your salary is 20 times higher than ordinary jobs Lvov. Perhaps you can be Francis of Assisi, and reject your wealth, donate to 20 people Lvov - and then write about how your day to day life is.


    Going out to cafes, restaurants, theater, dressing normally, visiting the mountains, is not something rare in Lviv. Comparing such things to owning a Maserati is silly.
     
    A significant proportion of people won't afford to go to restaurants, cafes. In this video, we are looking at people with leisure.

    Look in the video comments - there's even Turkish hipsters who recognize themselves in the video.


    Look more carefully. It’s not just architecture, it is about people living normal lives. Cafes full of people, people are well dressed. It’s just normal life.

    In 1991 it was not normal life. It was beautiful architecture but almost nothing open, long lines, and people looked like crap.
     

    Although I also love watching such travel videos on YouTube, it is not a very reliable way to measure economic distress, especially for cities like Lvov - with luxurious 19th century architecture that has no relation to current economic level (and would cost billions of dollar to construct today).

    You could just as easily find videos of less prestigious districts of Kiev.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kUlEcDh6X0

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Be6sYeTQtaY

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGAqPnsNS50

    And in Argentina, if you walk in central areas of the city, you might assume that Buenos Aires doesn't have the poverty it is famous for.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-ycjoGGyLo

    Replies: @AP

    can have a normal day to day life.

    To work 500 hours, to buy an acceptable laptop…

    So now a laptop is necessary to live a “normal life?” LOL.

    As I said, to have food, clothes, clean place to live with some privacy, friends, be able to visit a cafe or the theater, be able to visit the mountains, this is normal life. People live a normal life in Lviv and in most of Ukraine, as is evident from the videos.

    A significant proportion of people won’t afford to go to restaurants, cafes. In this video, we are looking at people with leisure.

    Yes, people from Lviv can have leisure. Even if not all will buy a laptop 🙂

    Look in the video comments – there’s even Turkish hipsters who recognize themselves in the video.

    Most of the language you hear on the streets and in cafes will be Ukrainian. So it is locals. Next most common is Russian – so tourists from other parts of Ukraine. There is some Polish and English but it’s not flooded with those languages.

    I’m sure there are no tourists in Vynnytsia. Look – normal life:

    Are many provincial Russian cities of similar size (~300,000 people) nicer than Vynnytsia?

    The crappy city of Khmelytsky. Taken in 2015, at the height of the post-Maidan economic crisis, in Ukraine’s low point.. Still normal life:

    You could just as easily find videos of less prestigious districts of Kiev.

    Kiev has millions of people. You can find such places in any large city. Video of Lviv was all over the city.

  812. @AnonFromTN
    @reiner Tor

    From a microscopic Latvia, there were two Waffen SS divisions: 15th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (1st Latvian) and 19th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (2nd Latvian). From even smaller Estonia, there was 20th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (1st Estonian). Yes, Germans failed to create Lithuanian Waffen SS division, so they were stuck with Lithuanian “Territorial Defense Force” (~ 40,000 soldiers).

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    By using words like “microscopic,” you cannot conceal the fact that even with conscription, the Germans raised few divisions on a per capita basis from these countries (roughly 1 division per a million people in Latvia and Estonia), and even many of the troops they managed to raise (again, with conscription) failed to be enthusiastic enough to be sent to the frontline. This despite Balts having ample reason to hate the USSR due to the mass deportations the USSR did there in 1940-41.

    And to repeat, it’s not like all the Balts who served with the Germans were volunteers, far from it.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @reiner Tor


    And to repeat, it’s not like all the Balts who served with the Germans were volunteers, far from it.
     
    A lot of those in the Waffen-SS divisions were conscripts iirc.
    There were of course some pretty horrible Baltic collaborators like the Arajs Kommando and other Latvian police and auxiliary forces who played an active role in the Holocaust and committed war crimes in Russia. But there was only partial overlap between them and the Waffen-SS divisions. I'm not even sure the latter had that much opportunity for war crimes given they were only raised in 1943.
    And even with those who were undoubtedly guilty of participation in mass murder, one has to wonder what role the experience of the 1940/41 Soviet occupation played. The Germans used the prisoners shot by the NKVD during the retreat in summer 1941 for their propaganda, this must have been a powerful recruting tool.

    Replies: @Beckow

  813. @AnonFromTN
    @reiner Tor

    Yes, in the grand scheme of things Germans were the only military force Soviet Army had to recon with. As to attempting to exterminate everyone who collaborated with Stalin, Germans did their level best. When Germans took Soviet military personnel prisoners, they identified all officers, communists, and Jews, and shot those on the spot. Nazi treatment of locals on the occupied territories is actually the reason why so many Soviet citizens joined partisan units or supported resistance fighters in different ways. As memoirs of many German officers showed, Nazi occupiers felt exactly like Americans in Vietnam: there are no non-combatants, every local is an enemy. No wonder that the results were essentially the same.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    Yes, in the grand scheme of things Germans were the only military force Soviet Army had to recon with.

    So there was no pan-European unity in attacking Russia, then. I’m happy you finally conceded this point.

    As to attempting to exterminate everyone who collaborated with Stalin, Germans did their level best.

    Well, they were not as hard as AnonFromTN (who complains about Stalin being too soft to the Balts) would’ve been.

  814. @Beckow
    @reiner Tor

    I am very skeptical of your numbers. There was clearly a lot of people moving around, it was a single country after all, same as Habsburg Empire pre-1918. The numbers that the revenge-seeking nationalists throw around today are political numbers, they define everything as 'deportation' or 'settlers', while many were probably what one would call today migrants seeking better opportunities.

    Russians lived in the Baltic for centuries, with heavy industry a lot more came. Magyars moved 20,000 people to southern Slovakia the moment they occupied it in 1938, hundreds of thousands of Slovaks emigrated - I can equally claim that they emigrated because of Magyar oppression, many of them certainly did, they said so. Magyars also shot some people and imprisoned anyone who resisted or had ideas about national autonomy.

    And a key distinction - Magyars tried to suppress national languages and schools, and refused to even consider any kind of ethnic autonomy. Soviets gave Balts their own federal states, with their own schools and universities, leaders, culture, etc... nobody was ever prosecuted for speaking Estonian. In my view, Magyars were much worse. Where is your sympathy for their victims?

    Replies: @AP, @reiner Tor

    I am very skeptical of your numbers.

    Who cares? It’s obvious that you have never been interested in history enough to read scholarly works on this (or probably any other) subject, and get most of your knowledge from reading online or maybe some newspaper and magazine articles on the subject.

    Magyars moved 20,000 people to southern Slovakia

    Most of them were those who moved out after 1918. And Czechoslovakia started a policy of deliberately settling Slovaks and even Czechs in ethnically Hungarian areas after 1920, so I’m not sure how you can complain about it. Anyway, the number is minuscule relative to the number of Russians settled in Estonia – several hundreds of thousands vs. 20,000. (Both areas had below 1 million inhabitants.)

    hundreds of thousands of Slovaks emigrated

    You pulled this number out of your ass. Not even all of those moved out who moved in after 1920.

  815. @Beckow
    @reiner Tor


    Germans certainly didn’t want any war, let alone an ultimately disastrous world war...they weren’t eager to fight a huge war for it
     
    But they did fight it, losing millions of lives. I dismiss assumed motivations or what 'people want' - how can we possibly know? With all due respect the effort Germany put into WWII couldn't be because one man, Hitler, and a few people around him wanted to fight a war. That's simple logic. Yeah, in retrospect people disown failures, that's human nature.

    'talk efficiency' refers to an annoying Western habit of cherrypicking minutia and boasting about the 'efficiency' of even their losses. It is a transparent way to make themselves feel better about the losses, it is rather sad. Russians won, period. (And that word 'feel' again, sorry to use it since we are all so rational here, right?)

    You and I agree on more than what we disagree on. We differ in our national perspective, and that's not fixable, too bad. I have always said that the real Achilles heel of nationalism is that it often ends up focusing on mutual disagreements, dislikes and historical grievances. As you can see, if you press me I will respond in kind. And that's how we end up with mushy liberal bs that is all around us - ladies don't like conflicts, and it is down hill from there.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    Germany was an organized state which executed tens of thousands of soldiers unwilling to fight. And it’s not like they had that many opportunities, captivity was horrible for Germans (especially on the Eastern Front).

    Germans would’ve been happy if Hitler won the war for them (who wouldn’t? Slovaks would probably enjoy being Übermenschen either), but they didn’t like the war.

    Western habit of cherrypicking minutia and boasting about the ‘efficiency’ of even their losses

    You are referring to the point that in the Second World War the German troops were, pound for pound, significantly better than Soviet troops. That’s just a fact. You know nothing about that war, and just decided to base your opinions on feelz, so I cannot help you much. By the way I’m not even really a Westerner, and it’s not like I was arguing that Hungarian (or American, for that matter) infantry were better than the Soviets. It was specifically the Germans (and the Finns) who were better.

    And that word ‘feel’ again, sorry to use it since we are all so rational here, right?

    It’s not my job to decide who is more rational here, but certainly I know way more about topics like the Second World War, and so it’s pretty logical that you base your opinions on feelz there.

    the real Achilles heel of nationalism is that it often ends up focusing on mutual disagreements, dislikes and historical grievances. As you can see, if you press me I will respond in kind.

    You brought up the Hungarian oppression of Slovaks, while having a disagreement over Balts. Why do you have to bring the evil Magyars into discussions about Balts?

    • Replies: @Beckow
    @reiner Tor


    ...You know nothing about that war
     
    I know that we won and you lost. Twice.

    If you think that Slovakia had only '1 million people' (like Estonia, wow, and we are neighbours, maybe we didn't use to exist at all?), or that hundreds of thousands didn't emigrate under Magyar oppression, well, you claim expertise, but it comes across as a sad example of loser mentality combined with some regret. Check your numbers and maybe read a few more 'hundreds of books'.

    One more comparison: you claim that 1-2% in Estonia were killed by Soviets, that would be 10k to 15k? Czechia that didn't fight almost at all in WWII lost 280k people. Given that probably at least 20k Estonians joined SS, committed massacres, collaborated with Germans, that seems about right.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

  816. German_reader says:
    @reiner Tor
    @AnonFromTN

    By using words like "microscopic," you cannot conceal the fact that even with conscription, the Germans raised few divisions on a per capita basis from these countries (roughly 1 division per a million people in Latvia and Estonia), and even many of the troops they managed to raise (again, with conscription) failed to be enthusiastic enough to be sent to the frontline. This despite Balts having ample reason to hate the USSR due to the mass deportations the USSR did there in 1940-41.

    And to repeat, it's not like all the Balts who served with the Germans were volunteers, far from it.

    Replies: @German_reader

    And to repeat, it’s not like all the Balts who served with the Germans were volunteers, far from it.

    A lot of those in the Waffen-SS divisions were conscripts iirc.
    There were of course some pretty horrible Baltic collaborators like the Arajs Kommando and other Latvian police and auxiliary forces who played an active role in the Holocaust and committed war crimes in Russia. But there was only partial overlap between them and the Waffen-SS divisions. I’m not even sure the latter had that much opportunity for war crimes given they were only raised in 1943.
    And even with those who were undoubtedly guilty of participation in mass murder, one has to wonder what role the experience of the 1940/41 Soviet occupation played. The Germans used the prisoners shot by the NKVD during the retreat in summer 1941 for their propaganda, this must have been a powerful recruting tool.

    • Agree: reiner Tor
    • Replies: @Beckow
    @German_reader

    It is interesting how a completely opposite set of criteria and circumstances is used when talking about let's Balts in Waffen SS compared to let's say the Red Army.

    All the points you make are partially valid. But the same can be said about any group you choose to defend: 'they were conscripts', 'watching atrocities made them do it' (certainly true about Soviets), 'not much opportunity for war crimes', 'experienced occupation'...

    Ok, there are always reasons, often very good ones why something happens. But could we treat all involved with the same set of criteria? How about an angry Soviet officer who lost his whole family, watched what you call 'propaganda' videos about it, knows that the other side would kill him the moment they could, and he deals with a bunch of former resentful Estonian Waffen SS or similar people? Would you also feel it was ok for him to get revenge? Or is revenge only reserved for one side?

    Replies: @German_reader

  817. @reiner Tor
    @Beckow

    Germany was an organized state which executed tens of thousands of soldiers unwilling to fight. And it's not like they had that many opportunities, captivity was horrible for Germans (especially on the Eastern Front).

    Germans would've been happy if Hitler won the war for them (who wouldn't? Slovaks would probably enjoy being Übermenschen either), but they didn't like the war.


    Western habit of cherrypicking minutia and boasting about the ‘efficiency’ of even their losses
     
    You are referring to the point that in the Second World War the German troops were, pound for pound, significantly better than Soviet troops. That's just a fact. You know nothing about that war, and just decided to base your opinions on feelz, so I cannot help you much. By the way I'm not even really a Westerner, and it's not like I was arguing that Hungarian (or American, for that matter) infantry were better than the Soviets. It was specifically the Germans (and the Finns) who were better.

    And that word ‘feel’ again, sorry to use it since we are all so rational here, right?
     
    It's not my job to decide who is more rational here, but certainly I know way more about topics like the Second World War, and so it's pretty logical that you base your opinions on feelz there.

    the real Achilles heel of nationalism is that it often ends up focusing on mutual disagreements, dislikes and historical grievances. As you can see, if you press me I will respond in kind.
     
    You brought up the Hungarian oppression of Slovaks, while having a disagreement over Balts. Why do you have to bring the evil Magyars into discussions about Balts?

    Replies: @Beckow

    …You know nothing about that war

    I know that we won and you lost. Twice.

    If you think that Slovakia had only ‘1 million people‘ (like Estonia, wow, and we are neighbours, maybe we didn’t use to exist at all?), or that hundreds of thousands didn’t emigrate under Magyar oppression, well, you claim expertise, but it comes across as a sad example of loser mentality combined with some regret. Check your numbers and maybe read a few more ‘hundreds of books’.

    One more comparison: you claim that 1-2% in Estonia were killed by Soviets, that would be 10k to 15k? Czechia that didn’t fight almost at all in WWII lost 280k people. Given that probably at least 20k Estonians joined SS, committed massacres, collaborated with Germans, that seems about right.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @Beckow



    …You know nothing about that war
     
    I know that we won and you lost. Twice.
     
    In the Second World War? (Which was what I wrote my sentence which you quote out of context about.) Who is the "we" and what are you even talking about?

    If you think that Slovakia had only ‘1 million people‘
     
    I reacted to your comment, where you were talking about the area given to Hungary in 1938.

    hundreds of thousands didn’t emigrate under Magyar oppression
     
    In 1938? No. But now I just realize that maybe you mean the emigration to America from Austria-Hungary. Which you think to be the equivalent of being deported to the gulag or to some Kazakh village. (Not to mention that of course many ethnic Hungarians also emigrated during the same period, if we include the partly political emigration after 1849, then it might well be over a million...)

    Czechia that didn’t fight almost at all in WWII lost 280k people.
     
    A very suspicious number. What is your source? Recently here at the Karlin blog people were discussing significantly lower numbers (maybe 100,000), and those numbers included Jews deported by the Czech police. Wikipedia writes (without sources) 345,000 "Czechoslovak" casualties (does that number include Slovaks fighting on the Eastern Front?), of which 277,000 were Jews (Slovakia paid to Nazi Germany to take its unwanted Jews, no questions asked what would happen to the Jews afterwards; Czech police of course participated in the rounding up and deportation of their respective Jews).

    Anyway, after such casualties, you pretty enthusiastically defended the following ethnic cleansing of Germans from Czechia. So either you engage in double standards, or you should accept whatever the Estonians are doing to their Russians. (They certainly aren't expelling them, there are even Russian language schools, so it's milder than what the Czechs did.)

    Given that probably at least 20k Estonians joined SS, committed massacres, collaborated with Germans, that seems about right.
     
    I don't know exactly how many Estonians were killed (it seems that just in the deportations some 10% of deportees died, including a very large number of children, even very young children; also just a few days before the Germans arrived in 1941 some 300 Estonians were shot, already a thirtieth of a percent of the population in a few days), but you seem to be unaware that many Estonian members of the Waffen-SS actually managed to escape to Germany. Not to mention that obviously not all collaborators were shot anywhere (not even in Russia), so it'd be pretty harsh to shoot all Estonian members of the Waffen-SS (including conscripts). Hundreds of thousands of Slovaks could've been shot in 1945 by that standard.

    Replies: @Beckow

  818. @Beckow
    @reiner Tor


    ...You know nothing about that war
     
    I know that we won and you lost. Twice.

    If you think that Slovakia had only '1 million people' (like Estonia, wow, and we are neighbours, maybe we didn't use to exist at all?), or that hundreds of thousands didn't emigrate under Magyar oppression, well, you claim expertise, but it comes across as a sad example of loser mentality combined with some regret. Check your numbers and maybe read a few more 'hundreds of books'.

    One more comparison: you claim that 1-2% in Estonia were killed by Soviets, that would be 10k to 15k? Czechia that didn't fight almost at all in WWII lost 280k people. Given that probably at least 20k Estonians joined SS, committed massacres, collaborated with Germans, that seems about right.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    …You know nothing about that war

    I know that we won and you lost. Twice.

    In the Second World War? (Which was what I wrote my sentence which you quote out of context about.) Who is the “we” and what are you even talking about?

    If you think that Slovakia had only ‘1 million people‘

    I reacted to your comment, where you were talking about the area given to Hungary in 1938.

    hundreds of thousands didn’t emigrate under Magyar oppression

    In 1938? No. But now I just realize that maybe you mean the emigration to America from Austria-Hungary. Which you think to be the equivalent of being deported to the gulag or to some Kazakh village. (Not to mention that of course many ethnic Hungarians also emigrated during the same period, if we include the partly political emigration after 1849, then it might well be over a million…)

    Czechia that didn’t fight almost at all in WWII lost 280k people.

    A very suspicious number. What is your source? Recently here at the Karlin blog people were discussing significantly lower numbers (maybe 100,000), and those numbers included Jews deported by the Czech police. Wikipedia writes (without sources) 345,000 “Czechoslovak” casualties (does that number include Slovaks fighting on the Eastern Front?), of which 277,000 were Jews (Slovakia paid to Nazi Germany to take its unwanted Jews, no questions asked what would happen to the Jews afterwards; Czech police of course participated in the rounding up and deportation of their respective Jews).

    Anyway, after such casualties, you pretty enthusiastically defended the following ethnic cleansing of Germans from Czechia. So either you engage in double standards, or you should accept whatever the Estonians are doing to their Russians. (They certainly aren’t expelling them, there are even Russian language schools, so it’s milder than what the Czechs did.)

    Given that probably at least 20k Estonians joined SS, committed massacres, collaborated with Germans, that seems about right.

    I don’t know exactly how many Estonians were killed (it seems that just in the deportations some 10% of deportees died, including a very large number of children, even very young children; also just a few days before the Germans arrived in 1941 some 300 Estonians were shot, already a thirtieth of a percent of the population in a few days), but you seem to be unaware that many Estonian members of the Waffen-SS actually managed to escape to Germany. Not to mention that obviously not all collaborators were shot anywhere (not even in Russia), so it’d be pretty harsh to shoot all Estonian members of the Waffen-SS (including conscripts). Hundreds of thousands of Slovaks could’ve been shot in 1945 by that standard.

    • Replies: @Beckow
    @reiner Tor

    I made two points when comparing the treatment of Estonians by the Soviets:

    - Substantial percentage of population in many countries was killed during and after WWII: Germans, Slovaks, Magyars, Russians and Estonians. There were massacres, revenge killing, expulsions, etc...

    Estonians killed and were killed in return. Their losses were comparable to other countries - actually smaller as a percentage. None of it can be undone. If Estonians obsessively dwell on only their own suffering, ignoring what they did, it is unproductive, self-defeating and slightly infantile.

    - Substantial percentage of population in most of those countries emigrated in the relevant period - often, although not exclusively, for political reasons. When the oppression accelerated - e.g. Habsburgs against Magyars after 1848-9 failed revolution, Slovaks in 1900-1914 Magyarization, Magyars and Germans after losing WWI and WWII (see, two wars!), Estonians and Latvians after annexation to Soviet Union...

    We have thousands of first-hand testimonies about Slovaks emigrating because of Magyarization, I had some in my family, they went to Prague to study, to America, Argentina, even France. Many left since they couldn't succeed because it required to be a 'Magyar' and speak Magyar. Close to a million left. It is the same or worse as Estonians after WWII, in Estonia the language-culture were explicitly preserved, so it was purely political - people who ended up fighting for the wrong side in WWII paid the price. Same with Sudeten Germans who were enthusiastic supporters of Nazism when it was safe and most didn't mind the planned extermination of Czechs and the other Slavs. After a lot of killing and atrocities they lost and were expelled. It wasn't pretty, but there was rough justice in it.

    Regarding whether it is hypocritical to support (retroactively) expulsion of Germans and oppose language policies in Estonia-Latvia: we live today, EU has a different set of values. There has not been recently a brutal WWII with tens of millions dead and ethics changed by it. Finally, pissing into a hurricane is a very stupid policy. Pissing into it while breaking basic norms is outright moronic. That's what the revenge-driven nationalists in Estonia are doing. This will not end well for them, or possibly for all us. Do you want a WWIII over what language is allowed in Narva schools?

  819. @reiner Tor
    @Beckow



    …You know nothing about that war
     
    I know that we won and you lost. Twice.
     
    In the Second World War? (Which was what I wrote my sentence which you quote out of context about.) Who is the "we" and what are you even talking about?

    If you think that Slovakia had only ‘1 million people‘
     
    I reacted to your comment, where you were talking about the area given to Hungary in 1938.

    hundreds of thousands didn’t emigrate under Magyar oppression
     
    In 1938? No. But now I just realize that maybe you mean the emigration to America from Austria-Hungary. Which you think to be the equivalent of being deported to the gulag or to some Kazakh village. (Not to mention that of course many ethnic Hungarians also emigrated during the same period, if we include the partly political emigration after 1849, then it might well be over a million...)

    Czechia that didn’t fight almost at all in WWII lost 280k people.
     
    A very suspicious number. What is your source? Recently here at the Karlin blog people were discussing significantly lower numbers (maybe 100,000), and those numbers included Jews deported by the Czech police. Wikipedia writes (without sources) 345,000 "Czechoslovak" casualties (does that number include Slovaks fighting on the Eastern Front?), of which 277,000 were Jews (Slovakia paid to Nazi Germany to take its unwanted Jews, no questions asked what would happen to the Jews afterwards; Czech police of course participated in the rounding up and deportation of their respective Jews).

    Anyway, after such casualties, you pretty enthusiastically defended the following ethnic cleansing of Germans from Czechia. So either you engage in double standards, or you should accept whatever the Estonians are doing to their Russians. (They certainly aren't expelling them, there are even Russian language schools, so it's milder than what the Czechs did.)

    Given that probably at least 20k Estonians joined SS, committed massacres, collaborated with Germans, that seems about right.
     
    I don't know exactly how many Estonians were killed (it seems that just in the deportations some 10% of deportees died, including a very large number of children, even very young children; also just a few days before the Germans arrived in 1941 some 300 Estonians were shot, already a thirtieth of a percent of the population in a few days), but you seem to be unaware that many Estonian members of the Waffen-SS actually managed to escape to Germany. Not to mention that obviously not all collaborators were shot anywhere (not even in Russia), so it'd be pretty harsh to shoot all Estonian members of the Waffen-SS (including conscripts). Hundreds of thousands of Slovaks could've been shot in 1945 by that standard.

    Replies: @Beckow

    I made two points when comparing the treatment of Estonians by the Soviets:

    – Substantial percentage of population in many countries was killed during and after WWII: Germans, Slovaks, Magyars, Russians and Estonians. There were massacres, revenge killing, expulsions, etc…

    Estonians killed and were killed in return. Their losses were comparable to other countries – actually smaller as a percentage. None of it can be undone. If Estonians obsessively dwell on only their own suffering, ignoring what they did, it is unproductive, self-defeating and slightly infantile.

    – Substantial percentage of population in most of those countries emigrated in the relevant period – often, although not exclusively, for political reasons. When the oppression accelerated – e.g. Habsburgs against Magyars after 1848-9 failed revolution, Slovaks in 1900-1914 Magyarization, Magyars and Germans after losing WWI and WWII (see, two wars!), Estonians and Latvians after annexation to Soviet Union…

    We have thousands of first-hand testimonies about Slovaks emigrating because of Magyarization, I had some in my family, they went to Prague to study, to America, Argentina, even France. Many left since they couldn’t succeed because it required to be a ‘Magyar’ and speak Magyar. Close to a million left. It is the same or worse as Estonians after WWII, in Estonia the language-culture were explicitly preserved, so it was purely political – people who ended up fighting for the wrong side in WWII paid the price. Same with Sudeten Germans who were enthusiastic supporters of Nazism when it was safe and most didn’t mind the planned extermination of Czechs and the other Slavs. After a lot of killing and atrocities they lost and were expelled. It wasn’t pretty, but there was rough justice in it.

    Regarding whether it is hypocritical to support (retroactively) expulsion of Germans and oppose language policies in Estonia-Latvia: we live today, EU has a different set of values. There has not been recently a brutal WWII with tens of millions dead and ethics changed by it. Finally, pissing into a hurricane is a very stupid policy. Pissing into it while breaking basic norms is outright moronic. That’s what the revenge-driven nationalists in Estonia are doing. This will not end well for them, or possibly for all us. Do you want a WWIII over what language is allowed in Narva schools?

  820. @German_reader
    @reiner Tor


    And to repeat, it’s not like all the Balts who served with the Germans were volunteers, far from it.
     
    A lot of those in the Waffen-SS divisions were conscripts iirc.
    There were of course some pretty horrible Baltic collaborators like the Arajs Kommando and other Latvian police and auxiliary forces who played an active role in the Holocaust and committed war crimes in Russia. But there was only partial overlap between them and the Waffen-SS divisions. I'm not even sure the latter had that much opportunity for war crimes given they were only raised in 1943.
    And even with those who were undoubtedly guilty of participation in mass murder, one has to wonder what role the experience of the 1940/41 Soviet occupation played. The Germans used the prisoners shot by the NKVD during the retreat in summer 1941 for their propaganda, this must have been a powerful recruting tool.

    Replies: @Beckow

    It is interesting how a completely opposite set of criteria and circumstances is used when talking about let’s Balts in Waffen SS compared to let’s say the Red Army.

    All the points you make are partially valid. But the same can be said about any group you choose to defend: ‘they were conscripts‘, ‘watching atrocities made them do it‘ (certainly true about Soviets), ‘not much opportunity for war crimes‘, ‘experienced occupation‘…

    Ok, there are always reasons, often very good ones why something happens. But could we treat all involved with the same set of criteria? How about an angry Soviet officer who lost his whole family, watched what you call ‘propaganda’ videos about it, knows that the other side would kill him the moment they could, and he deals with a bunch of former resentful Estonian Waffen SS or similar people? Would you also feel it was ok for him to get revenge? Or is revenge only reserved for one side?

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Beckow


    How about an angry Soviet officer who lost his whole family, watched what you call ‘propaganda’ videos about it
     
    In regard to the war crimes committed by Red army soldiers in Eastern Germany in 1945 exactly that argument is usually made, that it was not least a reaction to prior German crimes and that even many Soviet officers had personal reasons to hate the Germans, because they had lost family members to the German occupation. There were other factors as well (e.g. propaganda, the very high losses of Red Army infantry units which had a negative impact on unit cohesion which might have otherwise restrained soldiers, the strict discipline of the Red army and lack of sexual opportunities for common soldiers etc.). But in serious treatments of the issue the background of the German attack on the Soviet Union and the war crimes committed by Germans is usually mentioned. So I don't see your point, there is no double standard as claimed by you.

    Replies: @Beckow

  821. German_reader says:
    @Beckow
    @German_reader

    It is interesting how a completely opposite set of criteria and circumstances is used when talking about let's Balts in Waffen SS compared to let's say the Red Army.

    All the points you make are partially valid. But the same can be said about any group you choose to defend: 'they were conscripts', 'watching atrocities made them do it' (certainly true about Soviets), 'not much opportunity for war crimes', 'experienced occupation'...

    Ok, there are always reasons, often very good ones why something happens. But could we treat all involved with the same set of criteria? How about an angry Soviet officer who lost his whole family, watched what you call 'propaganda' videos about it, knows that the other side would kill him the moment they could, and he deals with a bunch of former resentful Estonian Waffen SS or similar people? Would you also feel it was ok for him to get revenge? Or is revenge only reserved for one side?

    Replies: @German_reader

    How about an angry Soviet officer who lost his whole family, watched what you call ‘propaganda’ videos about it

    In regard to the war crimes committed by Red army soldiers in Eastern Germany in 1945 exactly that argument is usually made, that it was not least a reaction to prior German crimes and that even many Soviet officers had personal reasons to hate the Germans, because they had lost family members to the German occupation. There were other factors as well (e.g. propaganda, the very high losses of Red Army infantry units which had a negative impact on unit cohesion which might have otherwise restrained soldiers, the strict discipline of the Red army and lack of sexual opportunities for common soldiers etc.). But in serious treatments of the issue the background of the German attack on the Soviet Union and the war crimes committed by Germans is usually mentioned. So I don’t see your point, there is no double standard as claimed by you.

    • Replies: @Beckow
    @German_reader

    I don't know what you mean by 'serious treatment', that is very academic. Most discussion is in the from of endless revisionist books that omit this context and political statements, interestingly very rarely by Germans. But Balts, Poles, and lately Ukrainians have been on an unserious rampage, with the usual propaganda assistance from Brits who are always available to sell their reputation to advance a political cause.

    I am puzzled by your inclusion of 'propaganda' among the factors. When Soviets were shown movies or articles about whole villages being killed by Germans, or saw the camps in Poland, why would you call that 'propaganda'? It was true, maybe stupidly presented, but fundamentally true. Why drop to the shallow level of describing everything people you dislike say as 'propaganda'. It cheapens the concept - as in the modern Western version where 'propaganda' is defined as what my enemy says. That is not serious.

    Replies: @German_reader

  822. @German_reader
    @Beckow


    How about an angry Soviet officer who lost his whole family, watched what you call ‘propaganda’ videos about it
     
    In regard to the war crimes committed by Red army soldiers in Eastern Germany in 1945 exactly that argument is usually made, that it was not least a reaction to prior German crimes and that even many Soviet officers had personal reasons to hate the Germans, because they had lost family members to the German occupation. There were other factors as well (e.g. propaganda, the very high losses of Red Army infantry units which had a negative impact on unit cohesion which might have otherwise restrained soldiers, the strict discipline of the Red army and lack of sexual opportunities for common soldiers etc.). But in serious treatments of the issue the background of the German attack on the Soviet Union and the war crimes committed by Germans is usually mentioned. So I don't see your point, there is no double standard as claimed by you.

    Replies: @Beckow

    I don’t know what you mean by ‘serious treatment’, that is very academic. Most discussion is in the from of endless revisionist books that omit this context and political statements, interestingly very rarely by Germans. But Balts, Poles, and lately Ukrainians have been on an unserious rampage, with the usual propaganda assistance from Brits who are always available to sell their reputation to advance a political cause.

    I am puzzled by your inclusion of ‘propaganda’ among the factors. When Soviets were shown movies or articles about whole villages being killed by Germans, or saw the camps in Poland, why would you call that ‘propaganda’? It was true, maybe stupidly presented, but fundamentally true. Why drop to the shallow level of describing everything people you dislike say as ‘propaganda’. It cheapens the concept – as in the modern Western version where ‘propaganda’ is defined as what my enemy says. That is not serious.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Beckow


    Most discussion is in the from of endless revisionist books
     
    I don't know about such books, in Western Europe they seem to be pretty marginal imo (the garbage one reads on Unz review is unrepresentative of mainstream opinion). No idea what Balts, Poles and Ukrainians are writing...but I doubt you have much first hand experience of that either...or do you read Latvian etc.?

    When Soviets were shown movies or articles about whole villages being killed by Germans, or saw the camps in Poland, why would you call that ‘propaganda’?
     
    Well sure, much of it had a real background, but it was sometimes presented in a somewhat misleading way; e.g. Soviet propaganda in late 1944/early 1945 made much use of the Majdanek concentration camp. Now most of those murdered in Majdanek were Jews from Poland, but as I understand it, Soviet newspapers etc. gave the impression it was a camp where predominantly Slavic citizens of the Soviet Union had been exterminated.
    Red army newspapers also deliberately sought to inculcate a spirit of revenge and used some pretty extreme language, which was at least a factor in the violence against civilians after the Red army entered German territory. That was also recognized by Soviet authorities at the time which eventually decided to scale back this type of propaganda in spring 1945 and replaced it with a somewhat more "humanistic" type of propaganda which exhorted Soviet soldiers to be worthy ambassadors of socialism etc.
    Anyway, I don't see the issue with the term "propaganda", in wartime all powers produce propaganda to motivate their workers and soldiers, and a totalitarian dictatorship like the Soviet Union all the more so; this isn't changed by the fact that many elements of that propaganda were grounded in reality.

    Replies: @Beckow

  823. German_reader says:
    @Beckow
    @German_reader

    I don't know what you mean by 'serious treatment', that is very academic. Most discussion is in the from of endless revisionist books that omit this context and political statements, interestingly very rarely by Germans. But Balts, Poles, and lately Ukrainians have been on an unserious rampage, with the usual propaganda assistance from Brits who are always available to sell their reputation to advance a political cause.

    I am puzzled by your inclusion of 'propaganda' among the factors. When Soviets were shown movies or articles about whole villages being killed by Germans, or saw the camps in Poland, why would you call that 'propaganda'? It was true, maybe stupidly presented, but fundamentally true. Why drop to the shallow level of describing everything people you dislike say as 'propaganda'. It cheapens the concept - as in the modern Western version where 'propaganda' is defined as what my enemy says. That is not serious.

    Replies: @German_reader

    Most discussion is in the from of endless revisionist books

    I don’t know about such books, in Western Europe they seem to be pretty marginal imo (the garbage one reads on Unz review is unrepresentative of mainstream opinion). No idea what Balts, Poles and Ukrainians are writing…but I doubt you have much first hand experience of that either…or do you read Latvian etc.?

    When Soviets were shown movies or articles about whole villages being killed by Germans, or saw the camps in Poland, why would you call that ‘propaganda’?

    Well sure, much of it had a real background, but it was sometimes presented in a somewhat misleading way; e.g. Soviet propaganda in late 1944/early 1945 made much use of the Majdanek concentration camp. Now most of those murdered in Majdanek were Jews from Poland, but as I understand it, Soviet newspapers etc. gave the impression it was a camp where predominantly Slavic citizens of the Soviet Union had been exterminated.
    Red army newspapers also deliberately sought to inculcate a spirit of revenge and used some pretty extreme language, which was at least a factor in the violence against civilians after the Red army entered German territory. That was also recognized by Soviet authorities at the time which eventually decided to scale back this type of propaganda in spring 1945 and replaced it with a somewhat more “humanistic” type of propaganda which exhorted Soviet soldiers to be worthy ambassadors of socialism etc.
    Anyway, I don’t see the issue with the term “propaganda”, in wartime all powers produce propaganda to motivate their workers and soldiers, and a totalitarian dictatorship like the Soviet Union all the more so; this isn’t changed by the fact that many elements of that propaganda were grounded in reality.

    • Replies: @Beckow
    @German_reader


    ....in Western Europe they seem to be pretty marginal imo
     
    Recently I browsed in Waterstones WWII-Europe section and there were 15-20 books about Russian misdeeds: rapes, POWs, Vlasov army, how they almost lost, Warsaw uprising 'betrayal', etc... There were a few neutral military books, but there was not a single book that could be described as having remotely positive approach to Russia's role in WWII, for example that they won at a huge cost to their own population.

    It is not much better in Prague bookstores, mostly same translations from UK-US, and Krakow is a cornucopia of Russia-hatreds. Based on the books published in Poland in the last few years you would think that Oswiecim was a part of Gulag, Poles valiantly fought on two fronts, and maybe Hitler was a secret communist. Poles even have a popular book about the supposed communist infiltration into early Nazi party. I don't speak Latvian, so I don't know, but the official statements speak for themselves, EU 'parliament' has just voted to equate Nazis and Soviets in starting WWII (look that up, it is exactly what they did).

    So your 'imo' is off, there is a lot of 'non-marginal' revisions, and Unz is not among the worst.

    If what you describe is 'propaganda', may I suggest we dispense with calling anything media, news or opinions and just label everything propaganda. It fits what you say is propaganda quite well. (By the way, Soviets were 'uber-national', that was their problem, so they would not mention the religion or ethnicity of victims.) This is a verbal race to the bottom.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

  824. @German_reader
    @Beckow


    Most discussion is in the from of endless revisionist books
     
    I don't know about such books, in Western Europe they seem to be pretty marginal imo (the garbage one reads on Unz review is unrepresentative of mainstream opinion). No idea what Balts, Poles and Ukrainians are writing...but I doubt you have much first hand experience of that either...or do you read Latvian etc.?

    When Soviets were shown movies or articles about whole villages being killed by Germans, or saw the camps in Poland, why would you call that ‘propaganda’?
     
    Well sure, much of it had a real background, but it was sometimes presented in a somewhat misleading way; e.g. Soviet propaganda in late 1944/early 1945 made much use of the Majdanek concentration camp. Now most of those murdered in Majdanek were Jews from Poland, but as I understand it, Soviet newspapers etc. gave the impression it was a camp where predominantly Slavic citizens of the Soviet Union had been exterminated.
    Red army newspapers also deliberately sought to inculcate a spirit of revenge and used some pretty extreme language, which was at least a factor in the violence against civilians after the Red army entered German territory. That was also recognized by Soviet authorities at the time which eventually decided to scale back this type of propaganda in spring 1945 and replaced it with a somewhat more "humanistic" type of propaganda which exhorted Soviet soldiers to be worthy ambassadors of socialism etc.
    Anyway, I don't see the issue with the term "propaganda", in wartime all powers produce propaganda to motivate their workers and soldiers, and a totalitarian dictatorship like the Soviet Union all the more so; this isn't changed by the fact that many elements of that propaganda were grounded in reality.

    Replies: @Beckow

    ….in Western Europe they seem to be pretty marginal imo

    Recently I browsed in Waterstones WWII-Europe section and there were 15-20 books about Russian misdeeds: rapes, POWs, Vlasov army, how they almost lost, Warsaw uprising ‘betrayal’, etc… There were a few neutral military books, but there was not a single book that could be described as having remotely positive approach to Russia’s role in WWII, for example that they won at a huge cost to their own population.

    It is not much better in Prague bookstores, mostly same translations from UK-US, and Krakow is a cornucopia of Russia-hatreds. Based on the books published in Poland in the last few years you would think that Oswiecim was a part of Gulag, Poles valiantly fought on two fronts, and maybe Hitler was a secret communist. Poles even have a popular book about the supposed communist infiltration into early Nazi party. I don’t speak Latvian, so I don’t know, but the official statements speak for themselves, EU ‘parliament’ has just voted to equate Nazis and Soviets in starting WWII (look that up, it is exactly what they did).

    So your ‘imo’ is off, there is a lot of ‘non-marginal’ revisions, and Unz is not among the worst.

    If what you describe is ‘propaganda’, may I suggest we dispense with calling anything media, news or opinions and just label everything propaganda. It fits what you say is propaganda quite well. (By the way, Soviets were ‘uber-national’, that was their problem, so they would not mention the religion or ethnicity of victims.) This is a verbal race to the bottom.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @Beckow


    Recently I browsed in Waterstones WWII-Europe section and there were 15-20 books about Russian misdeeds: rapes, POWs, Vlasov army, how they almost lost, Warsaw uprising ‘betrayal’, etc… There were a few neutral military books, but there was not a single book that could be described as having remotely positive approach to Russia’s role in WWII, for example that they won at a huge cost to their own population.
     
    I'm not sure what kind of books you counted as books on Russian misdeeds. I rarely if ever go to bookstores any more, so I cannot comment on what's in bookstores, but I'd be surprised if many of the following books were not present in any decent bookstore:

    - books on the holocaust; there's usually a large number of them; needless to say, they are always highly negative about Nazi Germany, and if any comparison with Soviet Russia comes up, it's only to show how much worse Nazi Germany was

    - Ian Kershaw's works, like his seminal biography of Hitler, the most recent book I read from him was "The End" about the final year of the Third Reich; I can assure you that he thinks that Hitler's regime was worse than Stalin's regime; though of course he thinks it was bad, just not nearly as bad as Hitler's regime

    - Richard J. Evans' books, especially his seminal Third Reich Trilogy, which is the best single source for the Third Reich out there; I can assure you that he, too, thinks that Hitler's regime was certainly worse than that of Stalin; in the case of Poland, he specifically makes this point, that Stalin didn't want to exterminate the whole of the local population, just make them good Soviet citizens, and the mass deportations and mass executions (mostly of the elites and politically unreliable elements) were only done to ensure this for the rest of the population

    - Richard Overy's books, he even wrote one book with the title "Russia's War," and he's broadly sympathetic to Russia, and while negative on Stalin's system, he even acknowledges its positive qualities, like the fact that they well organized their war effort. (A point I also made.)

    - regarding military history, David Glantz is one important source out there, though I'm not sure you could find him in most bookstores. He is of course pretty much pro-Soviet (while anti-Stalinist due to Stalin's mass murder and torture of his own officer corps, he even writes positively about Stalin occasionally) and anti-German; I think you'd like his books if you were into military history.

    I'm not sure what kind of "positive" book you are expecting about Russia. Russia was a horrible dictatorship at the time (for the majority of its own citizens even worse than Nazi Germany for its respective citizens), which aggressively occupied and annexed a few neighboring countries. That it was attacked and that its population was specifically targeted for extermination is not a virtue in itself.

    Replies: @Beckow

  825. dux.ie [AKA "Yevardian"] says:
    @Thorfinnsson
    @Mr. Hack

    If Ukrainians actually are dimmer than Russians, Balkanoid and perhaps Tatar admixture play a role. But I would suspect the main causes are:

    1) The North-South East Slavic cline, with northerners being more intelligent. These northern East Slavs are in Belarus and Russia, but not the Ukraine.

    2) Since the Ukraine has rarely had an independent existence, over the past few centuries ambitious Ukrainians have ended up relocating imperial centers and gradually assimilating in those ethnic groups. So many talented Ukrainians over time became Polish or Russian (or rather their descendants did). There may also be a non-trivial impact by Italian and Turkish slaving operations, depending on what sort of slaves were captured and how many.

    You can see something similar at work in Scotland. Three centuries ago there was a Scottish Enlightenment. Today there is Trainspotting and culinary "innovations" like deep fried pizza and deep fried Mars bars. That is because since the Act of Union talented Scots have relocated to England, other points in the British Empire, and the United States (Andrew Carnegie).

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @AnonFromTN, @RadicalCenter, @dux.ie

    You can see something similar at work in Scotland. Three centuries ago there was a Scottish Enlightenment. Today there is Trainspotting and culinary “innovations” like deep fried pizza and deep fried Mars bars. That is because since the Act of Union talented Scots have relocated to England, other points in the British Empire, and the United States (Andrew Carnegie).

    You can apply this in triplicate to the Balkans, especially Albania. For centuries that region provided an overwhelming proportion of the elite troops, religious leaders, the Pashas, the Sultans’ wives and mothers etc.
    Human capital was strip-mined from that region, whether voluntarily or not. All those nations essentially missed out on 3-4 centuries of European development. There’s no reason to believe that Albania or Bulgaria wouldn’t at least be the same level as Croatia if not for the Ottomans.

    • Replies: @Gabruak47
    @dux.ie

    https://medium.com/@subhashkak1/uttara-kuru-and-the-jats-c2d3130e4cb7

    Then you have the Jats, Getae, Jatts, Goths, etc.

    Who don't know what peace is. :rofl:

  826. @Beckow
    @German_reader


    ....in Western Europe they seem to be pretty marginal imo
     
    Recently I browsed in Waterstones WWII-Europe section and there were 15-20 books about Russian misdeeds: rapes, POWs, Vlasov army, how they almost lost, Warsaw uprising 'betrayal', etc... There were a few neutral military books, but there was not a single book that could be described as having remotely positive approach to Russia's role in WWII, for example that they won at a huge cost to their own population.

    It is not much better in Prague bookstores, mostly same translations from UK-US, and Krakow is a cornucopia of Russia-hatreds. Based on the books published in Poland in the last few years you would think that Oswiecim was a part of Gulag, Poles valiantly fought on two fronts, and maybe Hitler was a secret communist. Poles even have a popular book about the supposed communist infiltration into early Nazi party. I don't speak Latvian, so I don't know, but the official statements speak for themselves, EU 'parliament' has just voted to equate Nazis and Soviets in starting WWII (look that up, it is exactly what they did).

    So your 'imo' is off, there is a lot of 'non-marginal' revisions, and Unz is not among the worst.

    If what you describe is 'propaganda', may I suggest we dispense with calling anything media, news or opinions and just label everything propaganda. It fits what you say is propaganda quite well. (By the way, Soviets were 'uber-national', that was their problem, so they would not mention the religion or ethnicity of victims.) This is a verbal race to the bottom.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    Recently I browsed in Waterstones WWII-Europe section and there were 15-20 books about Russian misdeeds: rapes, POWs, Vlasov army, how they almost lost, Warsaw uprising ‘betrayal’, etc… There were a few neutral military books, but there was not a single book that could be described as having remotely positive approach to Russia’s role in WWII, for example that they won at a huge cost to their own population.

    I’m not sure what kind of books you counted as books on Russian misdeeds. I rarely if ever go to bookstores any more, so I cannot comment on what’s in bookstores, but I’d be surprised if many of the following books were not present in any decent bookstore:

    – books on the holocaust; there’s usually a large number of them; needless to say, they are always highly negative about Nazi Germany, and if any comparison with Soviet Russia comes up, it’s only to show how much worse Nazi Germany was

    – Ian Kershaw’s works, like his seminal biography of Hitler, the most recent book I read from him was “The End” about the final year of the Third Reich; I can assure you that he thinks that Hitler’s regime was worse than Stalin’s regime; though of course he thinks it was bad, just not nearly as bad as Hitler’s regime

    – Richard J. Evans’ books, especially his seminal Third Reich Trilogy, which is the best single source for the Third Reich out there; I can assure you that he, too, thinks that Hitler’s regime was certainly worse than that of Stalin; in the case of Poland, he specifically makes this point, that Stalin didn’t want to exterminate the whole of the local population, just make them good Soviet citizens, and the mass deportations and mass executions (mostly of the elites and politically unreliable elements) were only done to ensure this for the rest of the population

    – Richard Overy’s books, he even wrote one book with the title “Russia’s War,” and he’s broadly sympathetic to Russia, and while negative on Stalin’s system, he even acknowledges its positive qualities, like the fact that they well organized their war effort. (A point I also made.)

    – regarding military history, David Glantz is one important source out there, though I’m not sure you could find him in most bookstores. He is of course pretty much pro-Soviet (while anti-Stalinist due to Stalin’s mass murder and torture of his own officer corps, he even writes positively about Stalin occasionally) and anti-German; I think you’d like his books if you were into military history.

    I’m not sure what kind of “positive” book you are expecting about Russia. Russia was a horrible dictatorship at the time (for the majority of its own citizens even worse than Nazi Germany for its respective citizens), which aggressively occupied and annexed a few neighboring countries. That it was attacked and that its population was specifically targeted for extermination is not a virtue in itself.

    • Replies: @Beckow
    @reiner Tor

    Positivity has nothing to do with virtue, it is about a simple objective treatment that doesn't only focus on the negative aspects of WWII Soviet-Russia experience. After all they won the war, that should count for something.


    what kind of books you counted as books on Russian misdeeds
     
    All countries have misdeeds in their past - my point was that when you browse books published about WWII and Russia in the last few years, they are all about the 'misdeeds', some fanatically so (the rape books are often simply silly).

    I don't include endless Holocaust and general WWII history books - I am talking about the intersection of WWII and Soviet Union. There is a strange reality that the country that won WWII has almost exclusively negative coverage of it in Western history-intellectual circles. That is odd, unless there really are attempts to re-write WWII history and to use it in current geo-political struggles.

    Waterstones us a prestigious bookstore, largest in London (6 stories or so), and even happens to be owned by a Russian oligarch. But the books that one finds seem like a they are obsessed with chasing the devils in the east, those are also the same books any Westerners studying are required to read. Stupidity piled on top of stupidity.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @reiner Tor

  827. @dux.ie
    @Thorfinnsson


    You can see something similar at work in Scotland. Three centuries ago there was a Scottish Enlightenment. Today there is Trainspotting and culinary “innovations” like deep fried pizza and deep fried Mars bars. That is because since the Act of Union talented Scots have relocated to England, other points in the British Empire, and the United States (Andrew Carnegie).
     
    You can apply this in triplicate to the Balkans, especially Albania. For centuries that region provided an overwhelming proportion of the elite troops, religious leaders, the Pashas, the Sultans' wives and mothers etc.
    Human capital was strip-mined from that region, whether voluntarily or not. All those nations essentially missed out on 3-4 centuries of European development. There's no reason to believe that Albania or Bulgaria wouldn't at least be the same level as Croatia if not for the Ottomans.

    Replies: @Gabruak47

    https://medium.com/@subhashkak1/uttara-kuru-and-the-jats-c2d3130e4cb7

    Then you have the Jats, Getae, Jatts, Goths, etc.

    Who don’t know what peace is. :rofl:

  828. @reiner Tor
    @Beckow


    Recently I browsed in Waterstones WWII-Europe section and there were 15-20 books about Russian misdeeds: rapes, POWs, Vlasov army, how they almost lost, Warsaw uprising ‘betrayal’, etc… There were a few neutral military books, but there was not a single book that could be described as having remotely positive approach to Russia’s role in WWII, for example that they won at a huge cost to their own population.
     
    I'm not sure what kind of books you counted as books on Russian misdeeds. I rarely if ever go to bookstores any more, so I cannot comment on what's in bookstores, but I'd be surprised if many of the following books were not present in any decent bookstore:

    - books on the holocaust; there's usually a large number of them; needless to say, they are always highly negative about Nazi Germany, and if any comparison with Soviet Russia comes up, it's only to show how much worse Nazi Germany was

    - Ian Kershaw's works, like his seminal biography of Hitler, the most recent book I read from him was "The End" about the final year of the Third Reich; I can assure you that he thinks that Hitler's regime was worse than Stalin's regime; though of course he thinks it was bad, just not nearly as bad as Hitler's regime

    - Richard J. Evans' books, especially his seminal Third Reich Trilogy, which is the best single source for the Third Reich out there; I can assure you that he, too, thinks that Hitler's regime was certainly worse than that of Stalin; in the case of Poland, he specifically makes this point, that Stalin didn't want to exterminate the whole of the local population, just make them good Soviet citizens, and the mass deportations and mass executions (mostly of the elites and politically unreliable elements) were only done to ensure this for the rest of the population

    - Richard Overy's books, he even wrote one book with the title "Russia's War," and he's broadly sympathetic to Russia, and while negative on Stalin's system, he even acknowledges its positive qualities, like the fact that they well organized their war effort. (A point I also made.)

    - regarding military history, David Glantz is one important source out there, though I'm not sure you could find him in most bookstores. He is of course pretty much pro-Soviet (while anti-Stalinist due to Stalin's mass murder and torture of his own officer corps, he even writes positively about Stalin occasionally) and anti-German; I think you'd like his books if you were into military history.

    I'm not sure what kind of "positive" book you are expecting about Russia. Russia was a horrible dictatorship at the time (for the majority of its own citizens even worse than Nazi Germany for its respective citizens), which aggressively occupied and annexed a few neighboring countries. That it was attacked and that its population was specifically targeted for extermination is not a virtue in itself.

    Replies: @Beckow

    Positivity has nothing to do with virtue, it is about a simple objective treatment that doesn’t only focus on the negative aspects of WWII Soviet-Russia experience. After all they won the war, that should count for something.

    what kind of books you counted as books on Russian misdeeds

    All countries have misdeeds in their past – my point was that when you browse books published about WWII and Russia in the last few years, they are all about the ‘misdeeds’, some fanatically so (the rape books are often simply silly).

    I don’t include endless Holocaust and general WWII history books – I am talking about the intersection of WWII and Soviet Union. There is a strange reality that the country that won WWII has almost exclusively negative coverage of it in Western history-intellectual circles. That is odd, unless there really are attempts to re-write WWII history and to use it in current geo-political struggles.

    Waterstones us a prestigious bookstore, largest in London (6 stories or so), and even happens to be owned by a Russian oligarch. But the books that one finds seem like a they are obsessed with chasing the devils in the east, those are also the same books any Westerners studying are required to read. Stupidity piled on top of stupidity.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @Beckow


    Positivity has nothing to do with virtue, it is about a simple objective treatment that doesn’t only focus on the negative aspects of WWII Soviet-Russia experience. After all they won the war, that should count for something.
     
    Again, I'm not sure what you're talking about. No one denies that they won their battles, and most good works describe all the effort that went into this. Surprisingly, the enormous Soviet losses in 1941 contributed relatively little (except that without them the USSR would've been destroyed already back then) - the Soviets would get steadily more efficient, and so they achieved way more in 1944 (e.g. killed way more Germans) at way lower cost to themselves. This is dealt with in basically all works covering the issue. The Soviets also organized a huge effort to relocate their industry to the Ural and beyond, and to optimize the manufacturing capacity that they had. They did it quite competently and efficiently (and it must be noted that the communist leadership did this relatively well; the communist system was probably uniquely qualified for organizing such an effort), which was noted in basically all the books I've read where the topic even came up.

    The heroism of the Soviet soldiers and citizens also comes up a lot. The Stalinist system paradoxically relaxed its control during wartime, and encouraged initiative from below. Though sometimes the sacrifices were unnecessary, and quite often they were a result of low levels of training and could have been avoided by a better trained force.

    my point was that when you browse books published about WWII and Russia in the last few years, they are all about the ‘misdeeds’, some fanatically so (the rape books are often simply silly).
     
    I cannot comment on that, since I haven't seen those books. Books about the Battle of Berlin (there are several) will inevitably mention the fact that Soviet soldiers raped a large number of German women, and will try to come up with estimates. They will also mention countless other atrocities committed by the Soviet soldiers. I have yet to see a book which doesn't put it in context: they always mention the (usually far worse and often premeditated) atrocities committed by the Germans, the fact that Soviet soldiers couldn't go on leave for the duration of the war, or for example that when Soviet soldiers saw the relative wealth of Germany (the eastern provinces were usually poorer than the rest), they quite understandably felt righteous anger about the rich Germans' attempt to rob and enslave poor Russians. This also led to atrocities. Soviet soldiers also wanted the war to end quickly, and didn't understand why German soldiers didn't just surrender to the Soviets, shortening the misery of both.

    There might be some feminist books on the rapes committed by the Red Army (in Hungary a feminist woman was recently writing about it, with a strong feminist angle, blaming Hungarian men and the patriarchy more than the Soviet soldiers, I'm not sure if she wrote a book, I just started reading an interview with her, but closed after having read a few sentences), but in general I'm not sure there are many books exclusively devoted to rapes committed by Soviet soldiers.

    I am talking about the intersection of WWII and Soviet Union.
     
    Again, I don't know which books you are talking about, so it would be helpful if you tossed in a few titles.

    For example Mark Harrison's books (sometimes only edited by him) on the Soviet war economy praise the Soviet organization of the war economy. I have read Chris Bellamy's Absolute War (a book of very uneven quality), it also mostly praises the Soviet war effort (while also mentioning some atrocities), even to the point of mentioning a case of the Leningrad NKVD finding the author of some defeatist leaflets, where instead of mass arrests and torture, the NKVD engaged in modern forensic technology to eventually find to culprit, basically an investigation resembling any modern (democratic) police force. I have mentioned Overy's Russia's War, again, I don't think any fault can be found with it. When Titans Clashed (by David M. Glantz and Jonathan M. House) is a book often coming up in citations, but if anything, it's totally pro-Soviet (like all books by Glantz), for example regarding the Warsaw uprising it mentions (as Glantz argues forcefully elsewhere) that the Soviets were simply not in a position to help the Polish insurgents.

    I'm not going to search my library now to find books which might fit your description, but I don't think there are many.

    the country that won WWII
     
    WW2 was not won by one country alone, or even mostly. All three powers were needed, though a case could be made that the US alone could've won the war by nuclear bombing. (I find it speculative, and usually argue against it, but the possibility cannot be denied, and a lot of people often argue in favor of it.)
    , @reiner Tor
    @Beckow

    I just checked the Waterstones website. I couldn't find a WW2 section (or at least it wasn't intuitive), I only managed to find a 20th century category. The books about WW2 (the first few I found, I obviously didn't browse the whole) were mostly unrelated to Russia. I found one about appeasement (Appeasing Hitler by Tim Bouverie), obviously at least somewhat critical of British pre-war policy.

    One book reflecting negatively about Russia was about a squadron of American bombers stationed in Ukraine in 1944, and how they couldn't cooperate with the Russians. I'm not sure about it, but I think it mostly blames it on the Soviets.

    There's a book by Orlando Figes, "Revolutionary Russia," which might not be all that positive. I only read his epic tome on the revolution (A People's Tragedy: The Russian Revolution: 1891–1924), and while it doesn't reflect well on the Bolsheviks, the Russian Tsarist leadership is described as inept rather than malicious, and it's quite sympathetic to the suffering of ordinary Russians. So I don't think this other book by the same author qualifies, and in any event it's not about WW2, even if it might be a chapter in this book.

    There is a number of books about things like the Battle of the Bulge or Burma 1944, but I haven't seen all that many books about Russia one way or another. (Okay, I now just noticed an Anne Applebaum book with the title "Red Famine," but it's not about WW2 at all. There is also a Stalin biography by Simon Sebag Montefiore.)

    So I think it's biased in that the books on offer are mostly about the war from a British (or at least western) perspective, but it's quite understandable for a British bookstore. I also found one title about the evils of the British occupation of India, so with my cursory search I found two titles highly critical of British history.

    Replies: @Beckow

  829. @Beckow
    @reiner Tor

    Positivity has nothing to do with virtue, it is about a simple objective treatment that doesn't only focus on the negative aspects of WWII Soviet-Russia experience. After all they won the war, that should count for something.


    what kind of books you counted as books on Russian misdeeds
     
    All countries have misdeeds in their past - my point was that when you browse books published about WWII and Russia in the last few years, they are all about the 'misdeeds', some fanatically so (the rape books are often simply silly).

    I don't include endless Holocaust and general WWII history books - I am talking about the intersection of WWII and Soviet Union. There is a strange reality that the country that won WWII has almost exclusively negative coverage of it in Western history-intellectual circles. That is odd, unless there really are attempts to re-write WWII history and to use it in current geo-political struggles.

    Waterstones us a prestigious bookstore, largest in London (6 stories or so), and even happens to be owned by a Russian oligarch. But the books that one finds seem like a they are obsessed with chasing the devils in the east, those are also the same books any Westerners studying are required to read. Stupidity piled on top of stupidity.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @reiner Tor

    Positivity has nothing to do with virtue, it is about a simple objective treatment that doesn’t only focus on the negative aspects of WWII Soviet-Russia experience. After all they won the war, that should count for something.

    Again, I’m not sure what you’re talking about. No one denies that they won their battles, and most good works describe all the effort that went into this. Surprisingly, the enormous Soviet losses in 1941 contributed relatively little (except that without them the USSR would’ve been destroyed already back then) – the Soviets would get steadily more efficient, and so they achieved way more in 1944 (e.g. killed way more Germans) at way lower cost to themselves. This is dealt with in basically all works covering the issue. The Soviets also organized a huge effort to relocate their industry to the Ural and beyond, and to optimize the manufacturing capacity that they had. They did it quite competently and efficiently (and it must be noted that the communist leadership did this relatively well; the communist system was probably uniquely qualified for organizing such an effort), which was noted in basically all the books I’ve read where the topic even came up.

    The heroism of the Soviet soldiers and citizens also comes up a lot. The Stalinist system paradoxically relaxed its control during wartime, and encouraged initiative from below. Though sometimes the sacrifices were unnecessary, and quite often they were a result of low levels of training and could have been avoided by a better trained force.

    my point was that when you browse books published about WWII and Russia in the last few years, they are all about the ‘misdeeds’, some fanatically so (the rape books are often simply silly).

    I cannot comment on that, since I haven’t seen those books. Books about the Battle of Berlin (there are several) will inevitably mention the fact that Soviet soldiers raped a large number of German women, and will try to come up with estimates. They will also mention countless other atrocities committed by the Soviet soldiers. I have yet to see a book which doesn’t put it in context: they always mention the (usually far worse and often premeditated) atrocities committed by the Germans, the fact that Soviet soldiers couldn’t go on leave for the duration of the war, or for example that when Soviet soldiers saw the relative wealth of Germany (the eastern provinces were usually poorer than the rest), they quite understandably felt righteous anger about the rich Germans’ attempt to rob and enslave poor Russians. This also led to atrocities. Soviet soldiers also wanted the war to end quickly, and didn’t understand why German soldiers didn’t just surrender to the Soviets, shortening the misery of both.

    There might be some feminist books on the rapes committed by the Red Army (in Hungary a feminist woman was recently writing about it, with a strong feminist angle, blaming Hungarian men and the patriarchy more than the Soviet soldiers, I’m not sure if she wrote a book, I just started reading an interview with her, but closed after having read a few sentences), but in general I’m not sure there are many books exclusively devoted to rapes committed by Soviet soldiers.

    I am talking about the intersection of WWII and Soviet Union.

    Again, I don’t know which books you are talking about, so it would be helpful if you tossed in a few titles.

    For example Mark Harrison’s books (sometimes only edited by him) on the Soviet war economy praise the Soviet organization of the war economy. I have read Chris Bellamy’s Absolute War (a book of very uneven quality), it also mostly praises the Soviet war effort (while also mentioning some atrocities), even to the point of mentioning a case of the Leningrad NKVD finding the author of some defeatist leaflets, where instead of mass arrests and torture, the NKVD engaged in modern forensic technology to eventually find to culprit, basically an investigation resembling any modern (democratic) police force. I have mentioned Overy’s Russia’s War, again, I don’t think any fault can be found with it. When Titans Clashed (by David M. Glantz and Jonathan M. House) is a book often coming up in citations, but if anything, it’s totally pro-Soviet (like all books by Glantz), for example regarding the Warsaw uprising it mentions (as Glantz argues forcefully elsewhere) that the Soviets were simply not in a position to help the Polish insurgents.

    I’m not going to search my library now to find books which might fit your description, but I don’t think there are many.

    the country that won WWII

    WW2 was not won by one country alone, or even mostly. All three powers were needed, though a case could be made that the US alone could’ve won the war by nuclear bombing. (I find it speculative, and usually argue against it, but the possibility cannot be denied, and a lot of people often argue in favor of it.)

  830. @Beckow
    @reiner Tor

    Positivity has nothing to do with virtue, it is about a simple objective treatment that doesn't only focus on the negative aspects of WWII Soviet-Russia experience. After all they won the war, that should count for something.


    what kind of books you counted as books on Russian misdeeds
     
    All countries have misdeeds in their past - my point was that when you browse books published about WWII and Russia in the last few years, they are all about the 'misdeeds', some fanatically so (the rape books are often simply silly).

    I don't include endless Holocaust and general WWII history books - I am talking about the intersection of WWII and Soviet Union. There is a strange reality that the country that won WWII has almost exclusively negative coverage of it in Western history-intellectual circles. That is odd, unless there really are attempts to re-write WWII history and to use it in current geo-political struggles.

    Waterstones us a prestigious bookstore, largest in London (6 stories or so), and even happens to be owned by a Russian oligarch. But the books that one finds seem like a they are obsessed with chasing the devils in the east, those are also the same books any Westerners studying are required to read. Stupidity piled on top of stupidity.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @reiner Tor

    I just checked the Waterstones website. I couldn’t find a WW2 section (or at least it wasn’t intuitive), I only managed to find a 20th century category. The books about WW2 (the first few I found, I obviously didn’t browse the whole) were mostly unrelated to Russia. I found one about appeasement (Appeasing Hitler by Tim Bouverie), obviously at least somewhat critical of British pre-war policy.

    One book reflecting negatively about Russia was about a squadron of American bombers stationed in Ukraine in 1944, and how they couldn’t cooperate with the Russians. I’m not sure about it, but I think it mostly blames it on the Soviets.

    There’s a book by Orlando Figes, “Revolutionary Russia,” which might not be all that positive. I only read his epic tome on the revolution (A People’s Tragedy: The Russian Revolution: 1891–1924), and while it doesn’t reflect well on the Bolsheviks, the Russian Tsarist leadership is described as inept rather than malicious, and it’s quite sympathetic to the suffering of ordinary Russians. So I don’t think this other book by the same author qualifies, and in any event it’s not about WW2, even if it might be a chapter in this book.

    There is a number of books about things like the Battle of the Bulge or Burma 1944, but I haven’t seen all that many books about Russia one way or another. (Okay, I now just noticed an Anne Applebaum book with the title “Red Famine,” but it’s not about WW2 at all. There is also a Stalin biography by Simon Sebag Montefiore.)

    So I think it’s biased in that the books on offer are mostly about the war from a British (or at least western) perspective, but it’s quite understandable for a British bookstore. I also found one title about the evils of the British occupation of India, so with my cursory search I found two titles highly critical of British history.

    • Replies: @Beckow
    @reiner Tor

    It is in my view unquestionable that recent Western (in English) publishing has focused on celebrating anglo achievement in WWII, on Holocaust as a central event, and either downplays or outright attacks Soviet-Russia role. Waterstones is a great example, just take a walk through its aisles, or look at the books about WWII that are prescribed for universities. The general impression is exactly as I described it - now you can minutia, or analyse individual books, or hide behind 'they are sympathetic to Russia's suffering', but that doesn't change the overall narrative that is being pushed. Most of it is actually taken over by Holocaust, all else is over-shadowed and trivialised.

    Another issue is that you are and I clearly don't see WWII in the same terms - my perspective is broadly with the allies and with an understanding that Russia was crucial for the victory. I also see - as do almost all my countrymen and politicians - 1944-45 as a liberation by the Red Army, warts and all, but nevertheless a liberation. I am not sure you do, and e.g. most of Polish intelligentsia clearly doesn't. When we disagree on something so fundamental it is hard to have a discussion. When I say that winning counts for something, and that Soviets won WWII, it is not a throw-away idea - it is essential and all else flows from that idea. WWII was a tragedy, and tragedies don't have two sides.

    We have found another area of disagreement :). At this rate, we might have to find Jan Slota in some far-away provincial pub to sort this out for us. (He has a tank in his shed.)

    Replies: @reiner Tor

  831. @reiner Tor
    @Beckow

    I just checked the Waterstones website. I couldn't find a WW2 section (or at least it wasn't intuitive), I only managed to find a 20th century category. The books about WW2 (the first few I found, I obviously didn't browse the whole) were mostly unrelated to Russia. I found one about appeasement (Appeasing Hitler by Tim Bouverie), obviously at least somewhat critical of British pre-war policy.

    One book reflecting negatively about Russia was about a squadron of American bombers stationed in Ukraine in 1944, and how they couldn't cooperate with the Russians. I'm not sure about it, but I think it mostly blames it on the Soviets.

    There's a book by Orlando Figes, "Revolutionary Russia," which might not be all that positive. I only read his epic tome on the revolution (A People's Tragedy: The Russian Revolution: 1891–1924), and while it doesn't reflect well on the Bolsheviks, the Russian Tsarist leadership is described as inept rather than malicious, and it's quite sympathetic to the suffering of ordinary Russians. So I don't think this other book by the same author qualifies, and in any event it's not about WW2, even if it might be a chapter in this book.

    There is a number of books about things like the Battle of the Bulge or Burma 1944, but I haven't seen all that many books about Russia one way or another. (Okay, I now just noticed an Anne Applebaum book with the title "Red Famine," but it's not about WW2 at all. There is also a Stalin biography by Simon Sebag Montefiore.)

    So I think it's biased in that the books on offer are mostly about the war from a British (or at least western) perspective, but it's quite understandable for a British bookstore. I also found one title about the evils of the British occupation of India, so with my cursory search I found two titles highly critical of British history.

    Replies: @Beckow

    It is in my view unquestionable that recent Western (in English) publishing has focused on celebrating anglo achievement in WWII, on Holocaust as a central event, and either downplays or outright attacks Soviet-Russia role. Waterstones is a great example, just take a walk through its aisles, or look at the books about WWII that are prescribed for universities. The general impression is exactly as I described it – now you can minutia, or analyse individual books, or hide behind ‘they are sympathetic to Russia’s suffering’, but that doesn’t change the overall narrative that is being pushed. Most of it is actually taken over by Holocaust, all else is over-shadowed and trivialised.

    Another issue is that you are and I clearly don’t see WWII in the same terms – my perspective is broadly with the allies and with an understanding that Russia was crucial for the victory. I also see – as do almost all my countrymen and politicians – 1944-45 as a liberation by the Red Army, warts and all, but nevertheless a liberation. I am not sure you do, and e.g. most of Polish intelligentsia clearly doesn’t. When we disagree on something so fundamental it is hard to have a discussion. When I say that winning counts for something, and that Soviets won WWII, it is not a throw-away idea – it is essential and all else flows from that idea. WWII was a tragedy, and tragedies don’t have two sides.

    We have found another area of disagreement :). At this rate, we might have to find Jan Slota in some far-away provincial pub to sort this out for us. (He has a tank in his shed.)

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @Beckow

    Regarding liberation.

    Being a German satellite was initially relatively pleasant for most of the population (I'd wager to say that for many better-off Jews it was better in 1940 than it would be later under Soviet rule), but by 1944 with the German occupation, and then the Arrow Cross Party rule it became progressively worse and worse, until by early 1945 Soviet rule seemed like an improvement. But not by much. Many Hungarians were deported or had to flee from neighboring countries, several tens of thousands were mass murdered (in Yugoslavia alone some 40,000, tens of thousands in Romania, and probably several thousands in Czechoslovakia), the borders were changed to our detriment, our soldiers were kept in captivity until 1948-49 (and occasionally longer, some even until 1953-54), civilians were taken to the USSR. Now, a lot of it might be understandable, Hungarians often didn't behave exemplarily themselves (regarding the victims in Yugoslavia, Hungarian troops had murdered over 2,000 Serbs in 1942), we killed tens of thousands of Jews (and participated in the German ordered deportation of well over 400,000), but the main point is that it'd be a lie to call it a liberation. It felt a lie for over four decades, until in the late 1980s it finally became possible to call it what it was: we exchanged one set of foreign masters for another one.


    celebrating anglo achievement in WWII
     
    It depends on how serious works you are referring to. You still failed to provide even just one example of this, so I'm not sure what you're talking about, but obviously British historians will be most interested in British history, and so most of their books will be about the British point of view.

    Holocaust as a central event
     
    That's unrelated to any anti-Russian feelings. All civilian or military casualties are downplayed and forgotten and the focus is increasingly shifting on the Jews.

    downplays or outright attacks Soviet-Russia role
     
    I don't really know what you mean by that, since you don't even provide one example of where or how it's done. Serious works correctly identify that the USSR alone couldn't have won the war without Anglo-American help, though they recognize that the USSR's contribution was huge. (I think ascribing percentages is a bit silly, but probably not one power had a contribution over 50%.) Oh, and of course, the USSR did participate in the war as a conqueror, and it did attack smaller countries like Finland unprovoked. It also attacked Poland in the back. These are indisputable facts. Should they downplay these?
  832. @Beckow
    @reiner Tor

    It is in my view unquestionable that recent Western (in English) publishing has focused on celebrating anglo achievement in WWII, on Holocaust as a central event, and either downplays or outright attacks Soviet-Russia role. Waterstones is a great example, just take a walk through its aisles, or look at the books about WWII that are prescribed for universities. The general impression is exactly as I described it - now you can minutia, or analyse individual books, or hide behind 'they are sympathetic to Russia's suffering', but that doesn't change the overall narrative that is being pushed. Most of it is actually taken over by Holocaust, all else is over-shadowed and trivialised.

    Another issue is that you are and I clearly don't see WWII in the same terms - my perspective is broadly with the allies and with an understanding that Russia was crucial for the victory. I also see - as do almost all my countrymen and politicians - 1944-45 as a liberation by the Red Army, warts and all, but nevertheless a liberation. I am not sure you do, and e.g. most of Polish intelligentsia clearly doesn't. When we disagree on something so fundamental it is hard to have a discussion. When I say that winning counts for something, and that Soviets won WWII, it is not a throw-away idea - it is essential and all else flows from that idea. WWII was a tragedy, and tragedies don't have two sides.

    We have found another area of disagreement :). At this rate, we might have to find Jan Slota in some far-away provincial pub to sort this out for us. (He has a tank in his shed.)

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    Regarding liberation.

    Being a German satellite was initially relatively pleasant for most of the population (I’d wager to say that for many better-off Jews it was better in 1940 than it would be later under Soviet rule), but by 1944 with the German occupation, and then the Arrow Cross Party rule it became progressively worse and worse, until by early 1945 Soviet rule seemed like an improvement. But not by much. Many Hungarians were deported or had to flee from neighboring countries, several tens of thousands were mass murdered (in Yugoslavia alone some 40,000, tens of thousands in Romania, and probably several thousands in Czechoslovakia), the borders were changed to our detriment, our soldiers were kept in captivity until 1948-49 (and occasionally longer, some even until 1953-54), civilians were taken to the USSR. Now, a lot of it might be understandable, Hungarians often didn’t behave exemplarily themselves (regarding the victims in Yugoslavia, Hungarian troops had murdered over 2,000 Serbs in 1942), we killed tens of thousands of Jews (and participated in the German ordered deportation of well over 400,000), but the main point is that it’d be a lie to call it a liberation. It felt a lie for over four decades, until in the late 1980s it finally became possible to call it what it was: we exchanged one set of foreign masters for another one.

    celebrating anglo achievement in WWII

    It depends on how serious works you are referring to. You still failed to provide even just one example of this, so I’m not sure what you’re talking about, but obviously British historians will be most interested in British history, and so most of their books will be about the British point of view.

    Holocaust as a central event

    That’s unrelated to any anti-Russian feelings. All civilian or military casualties are downplayed and forgotten and the focus is increasingly shifting on the Jews.

    downplays or outright attacks Soviet-Russia role

    I don’t really know what you mean by that, since you don’t even provide one example of where or how it’s done. Serious works correctly identify that the USSR alone couldn’t have won the war without Anglo-American help, though they recognize that the USSR’s contribution was huge. (I think ascribing percentages is a bit silly, but probably not one power had a contribution over 50%.) Oh, and of course, the USSR did participate in the war as a conqueror, and it did attack smaller countries like Finland unprovoked. It also attacked Poland in the back. These are indisputable facts. Should they downplay these?

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