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Karabakh War 2020: Taking Stock 5 Days In
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Just like the Balkan Wars before World War I, there are interesting lessons to be drawn from the conflict, and as such I find it rather fascinating – if not surprising, given the quality of our chattering class – that it has receiving such scant journalistic and analytical attention. This is not just an insurgency or slugfest between poorly armed and trained semi-Third World militias militias. Both sides have reasonable modern armies which have bought up billions worth of NATO and Russian equipment and are manned by soldiers of reasonably high (by global, if not European, standards) and broadly comparable human capital. This makes this the most relevant conflict to how a larger conflagration between the Great Powers might look like that we’ve had in decades!

One as yet weak and preliminary observation (also made yesterday by Aris Roussinos) is that anti-aircraft systems struggle against drones, and armor struggles against both ATGMs and drones. This is accompanied by a ton of caveats. Mountainous terrain prejudices both armor (limits maneuverability; tank guns have limited angles of inclination) and anti-air systems (blocks radar, while drone AI can hug the landscape to avoid detection). Most Armenian tanks are T-72’s, AFAIK most of them don’t have either active defense or reactive armor, and most of their air defense systems, like the ubiquitous Osas, are old and dated. They don’t have Pantsirs which have been proven effective against cheap suicide drones at Khmeimim. On the other hand, it’s not like the Turkish TB2 drones that are wreaking havoc on Armenian armor and logistics lines are top of the line stuff amongst military drones. Even so, at just $5 million per unit, no physically present operators, and economies of scale that could potentially make them much cheaper still – and seemingly outperforming other systems by a vast margin, relative to their cost – they can be expected to play a central role in future warfare.

While the commentariat has yet to settle on a final name for the conflict, at this point it quite clearly is a war, with commenter Annatar making this point well:

I think we can use data from ww2 to estimate Armenian losses as casualty rates are likely similar as this is conventional warfare, casualty rates in Normandy were 4 per 1000 men/day, the Armenians have 20,000 men engaged, that’s the size of the Artsakh defense force, maybe they have a few thousand men from Armenia as well, to maybe 25,000 engaged overall, the fighting had been going on for 4 days, that should suggest 400 casualties, the fatality rate being 20-25%, let us say, again ww2 levels would suggest 80-100 dead Armenians.

The Armenian dead are now at 152+. Azerbaijan is more serious about military secrecy – perhaps also less concerned about its image with Western publics – so it’s not divulging any official data. The Armenians claim they killed 830 Azeris, but that is surely a huge overestimate. While it’s likely that the Azeris have sustained more casualties than the Armenians – they are, after all, assaulting heavily-fortified positions in mountainous terrain, which privileges the defender with an even better combat effectiveness multiplier than the standard 1.3 for the defense – I do not believe that the ratio is anywhere near 1:5. It’s not like the Azeris are doing human wave assaults like in 1993, when we actually did see such ratios. Besides, there are so many videos of Armenian troop concentrations being taken out by drone missile strikes that there’s a good chance that they’re understating their losses too. My guess is that it’s something like 1:1.5 or 1:2.

This picture is perhaps reinforced by the data we have on material losses. Unfortunately, LostArmor.info, the classic resource for this during the Donbass War, does not yet appear to be offering that service for the Karabakh conflict. However, a person called Stijn Mitzer has a blog post where he attempts to track the losses on both sides. As of the time of writing, they are as follows:

Losses Armenia Azerbaijan
Tanks 22 12
Armored Fighting Vehicles 4
Infantry Fighting Vehicles 9 13
Towed Artillery 6
Self-Propelled Artillery 1
Multiple Rocket Launchers 11
Mortars 1
SAM Systems 12
Engineering Systems 1
Aircraft (AN-2) 3
UAVs 9
Trucks & Vehicles 35

This certainly does not look like a story of Armenians mowing down masses of zerg rushing Azeris, even if one should adjust for Azeris being better at hiding losses.

This is bad for Armenia. They resoundingly won during the previous conflict during 1992-1994, when Azerbaijan’s population advantage over it was just twofold (3.5 million vs. 7 million) but incurred five times as many casualties, eventually causing morale to crack. Now, the Azeri population advantage is over threefold, with Armenia’s population having since fallen to 3 million while the Azeris, not having experienced a severe post-Soviet fertility collapse and not having had as much emigration, have instead closed in on 10 million. Population is power.

Meanwhile, as I have previously pointed out, the “correlation of forces” has been sharply tilting against Armenia over the past 15 years, as measured by military spending or my CMP index.

The Armenians do have a patriotic diaspora they can draw upon, but the Azeris have an even readier stock of cannon fodder in the form of Turkish-sponsored Syrian mercenaries, some 2,000-4,000 of whom have been flown over by the Turks. Morale is low amongst them, since many of them are jihadists who resent having to fight for a secular Shi’ite state for ethnonationalist reasons that do not concern them. But it doesn’t matter, their point is to serve as meatbags in lieu of Azeri conscripts. Azerbaijan might be a dictatorship, but public opinion does still count, and morale will quickly wane if there’s too many casualties.

***

Another problem that the Armenians face, as suggested by the above map, is that their logistics is pretty shaky. There are only two major roads running from Armenia proper to Stepanakert, the capital of the Artsakh exclave. The northern M11 is vulnerable to being cut off, while just today, the bridge on the central M12 road over the Hakari River near Berdzor has been targeted by drones. At this point in time, the Azeris must have already drastically degraded the air defenses over Artsakh, so they might soon be able to bring their 12 Su-25s and 12 MiG-29s into play.

Finally, Azerbaijan is getting the better reception internally. To be sure, world public opinion is firmly on Armenia’s side – but how many divisions does world public opinion have? Nations as diverse and geopolitically opposed as the US, France, Russia, Iran, and Saudi Arabia have expressed varying degrees of implicit support for Armenia. But they are not getting involved, while Israel has been sending Azerbaijan more drones, and Turkey has not just explicitly endorsed Azerbaijan’s maximalist war aims but does everything for it short of direct military interference. The Armenian Lobby might be powerful, but the Israel Lobby it is not.

Meanwhile, Putin’s “chef” and mercenary chief Evgeny Prigozhin has expressed his opinion that Karabakh is Azeri, which suggests that we won’t be seeing Wagnerites there anytime soon. Russian public opinion is not enthused about intervention. This is understandable, considering that the color revolution which overthrew the old Armenian regime of Robert Kocharyan and his Karabakh vets was accompanied by anti-Russian rhetoric (to the effect of “stop occupying Armenia“) and was followed by the imprisonment of Russophile Armenian politicians. In 2016, Prime Minister Nikol Pashinyan refused to integrate the Armenian air defense system with Russia’s (“[We should] develop a system of air defence of sovereign Armenia. Why should we transfer our own air defence system under the command of Russia?“) and stated that “[Russia] cannot be considered a real guarantor of Armenia’s security.” The logic amongst some of the kremlins must be, if they insist that it is so – then let them be. I think allowing the Azeris to reconquer Artsakh would be a bad idea for Russian national interests too, due to knock-on consequences on its position in the Donbass and the ex-USSR in general, but it’s understandable why at least some members of the Russian elites might not hold that view.

So I think the most likely outcome is that Russia continues feeding Armenia arms, but Turkey and Israel can do the same for Azerbaijan, but as per above, offsetting the Armenian defensive advantage, Azerbaijan has four times Armenia’s military manpower, a better logistical position, and advances may also become progressively easier as its drones wear down Armenian resistance and the first lines of the defense are overrun. For what it’s worth, Armenia has already expressed readiness for a ceasefire.

And as if all that isn’t enough, Iran has been seeing protests from its large Azeri minority in support of Azerbaijan, which runs contrary to its official pro-Armenian position. It seems that diversity is not Iran’s strength either.

***

The main question now is whether the Azeris would be content with eking out a symbolic win and calling it quits, such as taking the town of Fuzuli in the east – an outcome that will be satisfactory and perhaps to the kremlins (Armenians humbled, Azeris and Turks don’t grow too big for their breeches). Or whether Aliev is intent on going all-in and trying to reclaim all of Artsakh – the regime’s rhetoric, both now and in the past, suggests that that is the goal, and that territorial pretensions may well extend beyond unrecognized Artsakh into Armenia proper.

There’s no way to tell at this point. If I were him, I’d probably try to finish the job unless Russia began threatening an outright intervention. Oil revenues are down, so Azerbaijan will not be able to lavishly fund its military as it did during the 2005-2015 period; the resultant military preponderance that had been acquired over Armenia is also going to start going down again. As I pointed out during previous, smaller clashes in 2018, Azerbaijan’s window of superiority is likely time-limited. I suppose we might see in another 1-2 weeks.

 
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  1. Please keep off topic posts to the current Open Thread.

    If you are new to my work, start here.

    • Replies: @Some Guy
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Have you seen the youtube channel Binkov's Battlegrounds and if so, what do you think of the quality?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iA3_aTkr-H4

  2. the Azeris have a reader stock of cannon fodder

    What are they reading? It’s interesting that they are so very literate.

    AK: Yes, sorry, hit publish way too early on that. Ended up doing a ton of edits on that and elsewhere.

    • LOL: AltSerrice
  3. The Armenians do have a patriotic diaspora they can draw upon

    Maybe the Kardashians can be persuaded to go and flash the Azeris as a distraction.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @iffen

    Kim Kardashian has already tweeted in support of Armenia. This is truly a global conflict.

    Replies: @iffen

  4. @iffen
    The Armenians do have a patriotic diaspora they can draw upon

    Maybe the Kardashians can be persuaded to go and flash the Azeris as a distraction.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    Kim Kardashian has already tweeted in support of Armenia. This is truly a global conflict.

    • Replies: @iffen
    @reiner Tor

    Interesting that AK's blog provides a lot more information on the conflict than the Jew York Times. The quality article that I read there was mostly about Turkey.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Kent Nationalist, @Almost Missouri, @Yevardian

  5. Odd that some of those tanks and artillery look like they are in fixed positions and positioned in depressions and hollows where they are shielded on the sides, but none of them are attempted to be camouflaged from the air. Maybe Armenians are not use to countering air-to-land warfare.

    In the first video, a lot of the vehicles have camo patterns painted on but at 4:00 and 4:33 for instance there are what looks like rocket artillery painted with green camo dug into bunkers of yellow sand. Wrong color. No attempts at putting tarps or netting over them. At 6:19 there is something that I guess looks like a tank destroyer (?) that almost sort of blends in but their choice of a brushy olive green background with splotches of bright sandy yellow seems designed to not fit in anywhere, in the brush or on the sand.

    In the 2nd video, the tanks (which are mobile and not in fixed positions) are tan colored and manage to blend into the sand around them better.

  6. @reiner Tor
    @iffen

    Kim Kardashian has already tweeted in support of Armenia. This is truly a global conflict.

    Replies: @iffen

    Interesting that AK’s blog provides a lot more information on the conflict than the Jew York Times. The quality article that I read there was mostly about Turkey.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @iffen

    As you noticed, the USA is not very relevant to this conflict. So perhaps American papers are not very much interested in it.

    It’s also a pretty complicated thing. It’s not Americans against Russians (or Iran or China or whoever) proxy conflict. It’s not even a Russia against Turkey proxy war, because Russia also sold a lot of weapons to Azerbaijan. The Armenian government is not on very good terms with Russia, at least for an ally, it’s a bit like how Turkey is not a very reliable American ally and vice versa. The combination of Israel and Turkey supporting Azerbaijan against a diverse group of lukewarm friends/allies of the Armenians including Russia, the USA, France, etc., it’s just not very easy.

    Tl;dr. The Americans are not much involved, so the American press is not much interested. It’s also very complicated, so they avoid it if they can.

    Replies: @iffen, @tyrone, @YetAnotherAnon

    , @Kent Nationalist
    @iffen

    In the FT it has also received very little coverage; less than one short article a day and I think one medium length article which mostly focussed on Turkey and Syrian mercenaries.

    Replies: @iffen

    , @Almost Missouri
    @iffen

    Despite its pretensions, the NYT (and most Western media today) have very few actual reporters, i.e., people on the ground, outside of the HQ bubble, who are conversant in the local language and culture. So when there is an Armenian-Azeri war and the NYT's response is something-something-Turkey-something, that translates as "ignorant NYT HQ checks map, phones up English-speaking stringer in Istanbul".

    The Western prestige press do have plenty of people at headquarters ready to shape any incoming reports into the standard narratives though (all chiefs, no Indians, as we used to say). Even if they did have actual reporters, the Armenian-Azeri conflict is convoluted enough to occasion a lot of Editorial Meetings where they would have to hash out semi-plausible spin. That's time-consuming and painful. Being fundamentally lazy and incurious, they'll just wait and see what happens until there is an opening for an OrangeManBad article or two. Much easier just to stick to the standard narrative.

    , @Yevardian
    @iffen

    The New York Times mostly concerns itself with rapper bios and the latest Trump tweets these days, even Lebedev's 'The Independent' is better at this point, at least while Robert Fisk is still writing there, anyway.

  7. It’s clear that there has been an active choice to not give this attention. In particular since Armenians being persecuted, oppressed, and so on is something which is given a decent amount of attention. This is partly because of the Armenian diaspora lobbying for the recognition of their suffering or whatever, but nonetheless the media is usually sympathetic for Armenians. Furthermore, in this case it’s hard to give Armenians the moral high ground. The argument for the pro-Azerbaijan position is all about preserving the Soviet borders.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    @Shortsword


    It’s clear that there has been an active choice to not give this attention.
     
    Yes, seems likely. Kasparov still hasn't uttered a word on this, so far as I'm aware.

    https://twitter.com/akarlin88/status/1310391849736175617

    Replies: @Avery

    , @GazaPlanet
    @Shortsword

    This is clearly a ZOG spoiling operation and perhaps Trump's COVID diagnosis is just a ruse to get into the war room where Kushner/Trump get to do their favorite thing: planning the ZOG war on Iran. Just coincidentally, the "Doomsday planes" are in the air according to Sputnik News.

    , @Shortsword
    @Shortsword

    I meant it's hard to give the Azerbaijanis the moral high ground. The region is historically Armenian and Armenians have lost enough land as it is.

  8. @Shortsword
    It's clear that there has been an active choice to not give this attention. In particular since Armenians being persecuted, oppressed, and so on is something which is given a decent amount of attention. This is partly because of the Armenian diaspora lobbying for the recognition of their suffering or whatever, but nonetheless the media is usually sympathetic for Armenians. Furthermore, in this case it's hard to give Armenians the moral high ground. The argument for the pro-Azerbaijan position is all about preserving the Soviet borders.

    Replies: @Anatoly Karlin, @GazaPlanet, @Shortsword

    It’s clear that there has been an active choice to not give this attention.

    Yes, seems likely. Kasparov still hasn’t uttered a word on this, so far as I’m aware.

    • Replies: @Avery
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Karsparov's mother was Armenian.
    Father Jewish.
    Father died when Kasparov was about 7 years old.
    His mother raised him, and he took his mother's last name.

    By Jewish law/custom/tradition he is not considered Jewish, because his mother is not Jewish. He is Armenian. Half or not.

    Kasparov is unquestionably the greatest chess Grandmaster to have ever lived.
    But he is a certifiable nut.
    Him wasting his life trying to unseat Pres. Putin is proof positive that he is off the rails.
    People of unusual genius in one particular field are, more often than not, completely disconnected from reality, when it comes to ordinary human affairs.

    He does have something human in him though: when the Baku massacres of (Soviet) Armenian civilians living in Baku began (1990), Kasparov chartered a plane and got himself and his relatives out of there. He later sold his world crown to help those who had escaped the Baku massacres (...at the hands of Caspian Turk Musavat party fascist goons).

    Replies: @martin_2

  9. @iffen
    @reiner Tor

    Interesting that AK's blog provides a lot more information on the conflict than the Jew York Times. The quality article that I read there was mostly about Turkey.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Kent Nationalist, @Almost Missouri, @Yevardian

    As you noticed, the USA is not very relevant to this conflict. So perhaps American papers are not very much interested in it.

    It’s also a pretty complicated thing. It’s not Americans against Russians (or Iran or China or whoever) proxy conflict. It’s not even a Russia against Turkey proxy war, because Russia also sold a lot of weapons to Azerbaijan. The Armenian government is not on very good terms with Russia, at least for an ally, it’s a bit like how Turkey is not a very reliable American ally and vice versa. The combination of Israel and Turkey supporting Azerbaijan against a diverse group of lukewarm friends/allies of the Armenians including Russia, the USA, France, etc., it’s just not very easy.

    Tl;dr. The Americans are not much involved, so the American press is not much interested. It’s also very complicated, so they avoid it if they can.

    • Replies: @iffen
    @reiner Tor

    So, you are saying that the elites don't care what happens?

    , @tyrone
    @reiner Tor

    The media is trying to figure out how to make it "orange man bad"…..I miss the war correspondents of yesteryear…….when you said American papers the first thing that popped in my mind was toilet paper…….which is much more useful.

    Replies: @Digital Samizdat

    , @YetAnotherAnon
    @reiner Tor

    "the USA is not very relevant to this conflict"

    They weren't relevant to Syria either, but they funded and trained the 'moderate terrorists' there, and gave the resulting civil war top billing.

    I remember, was it Christmas 2015? Aleppo was the first or second item on every news bulletin.

    Replies: @iffen

  10. @Shortsword
    It's clear that there has been an active choice to not give this attention. In particular since Armenians being persecuted, oppressed, and so on is something which is given a decent amount of attention. This is partly because of the Armenian diaspora lobbying for the recognition of their suffering or whatever, but nonetheless the media is usually sympathetic for Armenians. Furthermore, in this case it's hard to give Armenians the moral high ground. The argument for the pro-Azerbaijan position is all about preserving the Soviet borders.

    Replies: @Anatoly Karlin, @GazaPlanet, @Shortsword

    This is clearly a ZOG spoiling operation and perhaps Trump’s COVID diagnosis is just a ruse to get into the war room where Kushner/Trump get to do their favorite thing: planning the ZOG war on Iran. Just coincidentally, the “Doomsday planes” are in the air according to Sputnik News.

  11. Do you have any source besides from some propaganda accounts regarding with Syrian mercenaries? I am very skeptical since we haven’t seen any video leaked by them (which they always do since they’re pretty stupid.). Although one can argue that it is quite similar in Libya as well (I haven’t seen anything on the social media from them, especially a widely circulating one, even though their existence have been known for quite some time). Also, I am very skeptical about their behaviour in Shia majority country since, to put it mildy, they don’t like Shias.

    • Replies: @AltSerrice
    @anonymous599

    I'd imagine that when they're on the Turkish payroll, rather than free-roaming around Idlib, there are restrictions on bringing ID and mobile devices into battle.

    Replies: @anonymous599

    , @SIMP simp
    @anonymous599

    France accused them.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-armenia-azerbaijan-putin-macron/france-accuses-turkey-of-sending-syrian-mercenaries-to-nagorno-karabakh-idUSKBN26L3SB

    Replies: @anonymous599

  12. Are drones that powerful in conflicts like this? Or are many conflict-parties just ill-equiped?

    A few years ago, I saw that for example the Vietnamese military has put tons of servo-engined legacy AAA-cannons on trucks with EO-sensors. According to local media it’s a cheap upgrade but very effective against UAVs.

    Maybe militaries shouldn’t have gone full missile.

    • Replies: @Kent Nationalist
    @Another German reader

    They seem effective based on all the videos of them blowing things up

    , @reiner Tor
    @Another German reader

    I think drones are powerful in this one conflict. I don’t think they will always be all-powerful, especially with air defense cannons and similar equipment, which would be cheap to produce.

    But certainly militaries ought to study this conflict a lot to avoid falling into the same traps.

    Replies: @iffen

    , @Tor597
    @Another German reader

    As Karlin astutely pointed out, Armenia does not have or is not deploying the Pantsir which is very effective at killing off these UAV.

    UAV's come in different flavors with different purposes and cost - benefit ratios. Suicide drones might be able to swarm S300's very cost effectively. But not so much if they are backed by Pantsirs.

    UAV's that shoot long range missiles can kill off the Pantsirs, but these types of drones can be taken out by S300's more effectively.

    The best drones fielded by US, China, and Russia will have stealth features which is an added battlefield element.

    But this is just the beginning of drone wars where you can see how different types of drones will be utilized going forward.

    Defensive systems like S300 and Pantsirs are not meant to win against offensive systems. They are just meant to slow down the enemy and provide time for your offense to inflict damage.

    Replies: @RoatanBill

    , @Justiana
    @Another German reader

    Turkey have second best drone fleet right know. After Americans. People try to underestimate Turks but their drone warfare is on spot. Drones don't win wars, but dramatically increase loses of enemies. Only Russia have good record while fighting of drones.

    Replies: @SIMP simp

    , @Vendetta
    @Another German reader

    There’s nothing magical about drones. They’re smaller, slower airplanes. Very slow. The IAI Harop, the one the Azeris favor so much, has a top speed of only 250 mph. It would lose a straight line race against a late 1930s biplane, and could thus be shot down by even a 1930s era anti-aircraft gun, provided its operators saw it coming.

    The Vietnamese are correct, the answer to these is a lot of cheap flak guns hooked up to a good targeting system. Armenia’s air defenses, however, are overwhelmingly based on missiles, which are generally inefficient for engaging swarms of low value threats.

    These Harop drones aren’t exactly cheap, by the way. India bought a lot of 10 of them in 2009 at $10 million apiece. Perhaps the manufacturing costs have gone down a lot since then, but that’s not a very efficient way for a small country to invest its money.

    $10 million will buy you a top of the line main battle tank, or two of an economy model. $10 million will also go most of the way to buying you a Pantsir S1, which you could use to shoot these down.

    It’s a one use weapon that costs just as much as the targets you’ll be trying to destroy with it. For the price of four or five of these, you could buy a Flanker jet from Russia, which can give you 20-30 years of service and carry out hundreds or even thousands of missions over its lifetime, as opposed to the four or five you get with the suicide drones.

    Unless they’ve succeeded in reducing the cost of these by an order of magnitude or two, they’re an impractical novelty weapon to sell to morons with a lot of money to waste.

    My first thought on seeing these videos was to wonder why the Armenians aren’t using it themselves - how come Russia isn’t selling them its own version of a kamikaze drone?

    It makes sense when you realize it’s not cheap or efficient at all. The Armenians have much less money to play around with and they’re not going to waste it on showboating with meme toys.

    Replies: @Tor597, @El Dato, @Almost Missouri

    , @Popcorn Time
    @Another German reader

    These drones are what the U-boats were in 1914. "The U-boat provided tremendous stealth. They would remain submerged until finding a target. "
    https://www.wired.com/2014/09/wwis-u-boats-launched-age-unrestricted-warfare/

  13. @reiner Tor
    @iffen

    As you noticed, the USA is not very relevant to this conflict. So perhaps American papers are not very much interested in it.

    It’s also a pretty complicated thing. It’s not Americans against Russians (or Iran or China or whoever) proxy conflict. It’s not even a Russia against Turkey proxy war, because Russia also sold a lot of weapons to Azerbaijan. The Armenian government is not on very good terms with Russia, at least for an ally, it’s a bit like how Turkey is not a very reliable American ally and vice versa. The combination of Israel and Turkey supporting Azerbaijan against a diverse group of lukewarm friends/allies of the Armenians including Russia, the USA, France, etc., it’s just not very easy.

    Tl;dr. The Americans are not much involved, so the American press is not much interested. It’s also very complicated, so they avoid it if they can.

    Replies: @iffen, @tyrone, @YetAnotherAnon

    So, you are saying that the elites don’t care what happens?

  14. I get a kick out of these twin city relationships.

    The first time I heard of them – that European cities had twin cities in America, I thought it was pretty strange, given the demographic differences, at that time. Though, maybe they are a bit more even matched now, and back in the ’60s or ’70s, the contrast probably wasn’t extreme in most cities.

    I don’t see the point. Seems like an excuse to go on junkets or something.

  15. “Iran has been seeing protests from its large Azeri minority in support of Azerbaijan, which runs contrary to its official pro-Armenian position. It seems that diversity is not Iran’s strength either.”

    It’s just a loud minority. There have been no recorded cases of Iranian citizens joining Baku’s military to fight its wars against Armenia. More Afghans and Chechens were in the Azerbaijani Republic’s army than Iranians, which says a lot about the Iranian-Azeris indifference to the conflict. Out of 12-18 million Iranian-Azeris, of course you’ll find enough to form a protest, but the masses don’t care.

    It’s been noted that many Iranian-Azeris frequent Armenia on holiday. I think local Armenians initially thought it strange to see people speaking Azeri, but came to see it as normal as more and more came.

    • Thanks: Digital Samizdat
  16. I actually think that the Azeris are doomed. Hungary seems to be supporting them. Hungary has lost all its wars for centuries. The Central Powers were finished. The Axis, too. The Warsaw Pact is no longer. NATO is going to be next, probably. The Azeris are going to lose.

    • Agree: SIMP simp
    • Replies: @Yevardian
    @reiner Tor

    I noticed that. How damaged does your national psyche have to be that you want to LARP as T*rks of all people? Obviously you still haven't recovered from Mohacs. Although going from the regional great power to being bullied by Slovaks and Romanians is quite a fall, admittedly.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @AltanBakshi

    , @Mr. XYZ
    @reiner Tor

    You see NATO eventually disappearing? Sometime soon?

    Replies: @reiner Tor

  17. @Anatoly Karlin
    @Shortsword


    It’s clear that there has been an active choice to not give this attention.
     
    Yes, seems likely. Kasparov still hasn't uttered a word on this, so far as I'm aware.

    https://twitter.com/akarlin88/status/1310391849736175617

    Replies: @Avery

    Karsparov’s mother was Armenian.
    Father Jewish.
    Father died when Kasparov was about 7 years old.
    His mother raised him, and he took his mother’s last name.

    By Jewish law/custom/tradition he is not considered Jewish, because his mother is not Jewish. He is Armenian. Half or not.

    Kasparov is unquestionably the greatest chess Grandmaster to have ever lived.
    But he is a certifiable nut.
    Him wasting his life trying to unseat Pres. Putin is proof positive that he is off the rails.
    People of unusual genius in one particular field are, more often than not, completely disconnected from reality, when it comes to ordinary human affairs.

    He does have something human in him though: when the Baku massacres of (Soviet) Armenian civilians living in Baku began (1990), Kasparov chartered a plane and got himself and his relatives out of there. He later sold his world crown to help those who had escaped the Baku massacres (…at the hands of Caspian Turk Musavat party fascist goons).

    • Thanks: GazaPlanet, Jazman
    • Replies: @martin_2
    @Avery

    Magnus Carlsen is a more likely candidate for the greatest player of all time. Unlike in other sports and games, there is a way of objectively measuring it. They put the positions of the historic games of chess greats into a chess computer and found that Carlsen was the player who most often got it right, that is to say, the computer made the same move as he had done at the time.

    Replies: @yakushimaru

  18. @iffen
    @reiner Tor

    Interesting that AK's blog provides a lot more information on the conflict than the Jew York Times. The quality article that I read there was mostly about Turkey.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Kent Nationalist, @Almost Missouri, @Yevardian

    In the FT it has also received very little coverage; less than one short article a day and I think one medium length article which mostly focussed on Turkey and Syrian mercenaries.

    • Replies: @iffen
    @Kent Nationalist

    It's like these people dying there don't really "count".

    So much for the NYT being "the record". LOL

  19. @Kent Nationalist
    @iffen

    In the FT it has also received very little coverage; less than one short article a day and I think one medium length article which mostly focussed on Turkey and Syrian mercenaries.

    Replies: @iffen

    It’s like these people dying there don’t really “count”.

    So much for the NYT being “the record”. LOL

  20. @Another German reader
    Are drones that powerful in conflicts like this? Or are many conflict-parties just ill-equiped?

    A few years ago, I saw that for example the Vietnamese military has put tons of servo-engined legacy AAA-cannons on trucks with EO-sensors. According to local media it's a cheap upgrade but very effective against UAVs.

    Maybe militaries shouldn't have gone full missile.

    Replies: @Kent Nationalist, @reiner Tor, @Tor597, @Justiana, @Vendetta, @Popcorn Time

    They seem effective based on all the videos of them blowing things up

  21. @Another German reader
    Are drones that powerful in conflicts like this? Or are many conflict-parties just ill-equiped?

    A few years ago, I saw that for example the Vietnamese military has put tons of servo-engined legacy AAA-cannons on trucks with EO-sensors. According to local media it's a cheap upgrade but very effective against UAVs.

    Maybe militaries shouldn't have gone full missile.

    Replies: @Kent Nationalist, @reiner Tor, @Tor597, @Justiana, @Vendetta, @Popcorn Time

    I think drones are powerful in this one conflict. I don’t think they will always be all-powerful, especially with air defense cannons and similar equipment, which would be cheap to produce.

    But certainly militaries ought to study this conflict a lot to avoid falling into the same traps.

    • Replies: @iffen
    @reiner Tor

    But certainly militaries ought to study this conflict a lot to avoid falling into the same traps

    Our diversity corps is all over this.

  22. I think the Muslim world will become more cooperative, once their TFR collapses. But it won’t be some type of pan-Arab cooperation. It will be an organization filled with globalist subversion, like the EU.

  23. @reiner Tor
    @Another German reader

    I think drones are powerful in this one conflict. I don’t think they will always be all-powerful, especially with air defense cannons and similar equipment, which would be cheap to produce.

    But certainly militaries ought to study this conflict a lot to avoid falling into the same traps.

    Replies: @iffen

    But certainly militaries ought to study this conflict a lot to avoid falling into the same traps

    Our diversity corps is all over this.

  24. Media in Russia is also not so interested in this conflict, even though it is the Russian government on which the two sides will depend for restoring peace, and its predecessor which has created the two countries. But who can blame the media? I couldn’t even have the attention span to skim read Karlin’s blog post on this battle.

    You can see the general bored attitude of the public, or netizens in Russia, about Armenia fighting Azerbaijan – toad fucking a viper, or cholera vs syphilis.

    Lack of reporting can also be partly result of the two sides of the conflict, not providing any reliable information that a professional journalist could write in a fact-checked article. .

    Media under capitalism is a form of entertainment, and especially in internet age where clicks are easily measurable – has to account for public interest, in the topics it covers. It’s not supposed to be some objective reflection of events in the world. And if we had such an objective, non-entertainment media, then it should probably be more focused on “urban planning in China”, or “infrastructure development in Latin America”.

    • Replies: @iffen
    @Dmitry

    I couldn’t even have the attention span to skim read Karlin’s blog post on this battle.

    Shirley, you jest.

    , @Ano4
    @Dmitry

    Maybe Russian media have a tough time deciding between Kabaeva and Simonian?

    I mean both are charming...

    (Just kidding.)

    😉

  25. @Anatoly Karlin
    Please keep off topic posts to the current Open Thread.

    If you are new to my work, start here.

    Replies: @Some Guy

    Have you seen the youtube channel Binkov’s Battlegrounds and if so, what do you think of the quality?

  26. @Dmitry
    Media in Russia is also not so interested in this conflict, even though it is the Russian government on which the two sides will depend for restoring peace, and its predecessor which has created the two countries. But who can blame the media? I couldn't even have the attention span to skim read Karlin's blog post on this battle.

    You can see the general bored attitude of the public, or netizens in Russia, about Armenia fighting Azerbaijan - toad fucking a viper, or cholera vs syphilis.

    Lack of reporting can also be partly result of the two sides of the conflict, not providing any reliable information that a professional journalist could write in a fact-checked article. .

    Media under capitalism is a form of entertainment, and especially in internet age where clicks are easily measurable - has to account for public interest, in the topics it covers. It's not supposed to be some objective reflection of events in the world. And if we had such an objective, non-entertainment media, then it should probably be more focused on "urban planning in China", or "infrastructure development in Latin America".

    Replies: @iffen, @Ano4

    I couldn’t even have the attention span to skim read Karlin’s blog post on this battle.

    Shirley, you jest.

  27. @Dmitry
    Media in Russia is also not so interested in this conflict, even though it is the Russian government on which the two sides will depend for restoring peace, and its predecessor which has created the two countries. But who can blame the media? I couldn't even have the attention span to skim read Karlin's blog post on this battle.

    You can see the general bored attitude of the public, or netizens in Russia, about Armenia fighting Azerbaijan - toad fucking a viper, or cholera vs syphilis.

    Lack of reporting can also be partly result of the two sides of the conflict, not providing any reliable information that a professional journalist could write in a fact-checked article. .

    Media under capitalism is a form of entertainment, and especially in internet age where clicks are easily measurable - has to account for public interest, in the topics it covers. It's not supposed to be some objective reflection of events in the world. And if we had such an objective, non-entertainment media, then it should probably be more focused on "urban planning in China", or "infrastructure development in Latin America".

    Replies: @iffen, @Ano4

    Maybe Russian media have a tough time deciding between Kabaeva and Simonian?

    I mean both are charming…

    (Just kidding.)

    😉

  28. @Shortsword
    It's clear that there has been an active choice to not give this attention. In particular since Armenians being persecuted, oppressed, and so on is something which is given a decent amount of attention. This is partly because of the Armenian diaspora lobbying for the recognition of their suffering or whatever, but nonetheless the media is usually sympathetic for Armenians. Furthermore, in this case it's hard to give Armenians the moral high ground. The argument for the pro-Azerbaijan position is all about preserving the Soviet borders.

    Replies: @Anatoly Karlin, @GazaPlanet, @Shortsword

    I meant it’s hard to give the Azerbaijanis the moral high ground. The region is historically Armenian and Armenians have lost enough land as it is.

  29. @anonymous599
    Do you have any source besides from some propaganda accounts regarding with Syrian mercenaries? I am very skeptical since we haven't seen any video leaked by them (which they always do since they're pretty stupid.). Although one can argue that it is quite similar in Libya as well (I haven't seen anything on the social media from them, especially a widely circulating one, even though their existence have been known for quite some time). Also, I am very skeptical about their behaviour in Shia majority country since, to put it mildy, they don't like Shias.

    Replies: @AltSerrice, @SIMP simp

    I’d imagine that when they’re on the Turkish payroll, rather than free-roaming around Idlib, there are restrictions on bringing ID and mobile devices into battle.

    • Replies: @anonymous599
    @AltSerrice

    It's not easy to control them. I mean if you move 4k fighters, you don't need to do anything expect looking/searching in the Syria, right? You can look at the areas under Turkey's direct control in the North or Idlib, I bet you can find evidence easily. It would make more sense if we see some Turkish citizens on the frontline (There were a lot of Turkish citizens fought in Syria for all sides.). At the end of the day, Azerbaijan is not Libya.

  30. @Another German reader
    Are drones that powerful in conflicts like this? Or are many conflict-parties just ill-equiped?

    A few years ago, I saw that for example the Vietnamese military has put tons of servo-engined legacy AAA-cannons on trucks with EO-sensors. According to local media it's a cheap upgrade but very effective against UAVs.

    Maybe militaries shouldn't have gone full missile.

    Replies: @Kent Nationalist, @reiner Tor, @Tor597, @Justiana, @Vendetta, @Popcorn Time

    As Karlin astutely pointed out, Armenia does not have or is not deploying the Pantsir which is very effective at killing off these UAV.

    UAV’s come in different flavors with different purposes and cost – benefit ratios. Suicide drones might be able to swarm S300’s very cost effectively. But not so much if they are backed by Pantsirs.

    UAV’s that shoot long range missiles can kill off the Pantsirs, but these types of drones can be taken out by S300’s more effectively.

    The best drones fielded by US, China, and Russia will have stealth features which is an added battlefield element.

    But this is just the beginning of drone wars where you can see how different types of drones will be utilized going forward.

    Defensive systems like S300 and Pantsirs are not meant to win against offensive systems. They are just meant to slow down the enemy and provide time for your offense to inflict damage.

    • Replies: @RoatanBill
    @Tor597

    Drones are relatively slow moving. What's needed is a mobile laser weapon to target them and burn up their electronics. Why anyone would be using tanks when rockets are known to exist shows how inept the military mind actually, always fighting the last war.

    Sooner or later, some NAVY is going to suffer a defeat by drone and / or missile swam. Those billion dollar aircraft carriers should be regarded as floating coffins by now but nations are still building them to display their phallic prowess.

  31. @Another German reader
    Are drones that powerful in conflicts like this? Or are many conflict-parties just ill-equiped?

    A few years ago, I saw that for example the Vietnamese military has put tons of servo-engined legacy AAA-cannons on trucks with EO-sensors. According to local media it's a cheap upgrade but very effective against UAVs.

    Maybe militaries shouldn't have gone full missile.

    Replies: @Kent Nationalist, @reiner Tor, @Tor597, @Justiana, @Vendetta, @Popcorn Time

    Turkey have second best drone fleet right know. After Americans. People try to underestimate Turks but their drone warfare is on spot. Drones don’t win wars, but dramatically increase loses of enemies. Only Russia have good record while fighting of drones.

    • Replies: @SIMP simp
    @Justiana

    Turkish drones inflicted heavy losses on Russian allies in libya and Syria

  32. @reiner Tor
    @iffen

    As you noticed, the USA is not very relevant to this conflict. So perhaps American papers are not very much interested in it.

    It’s also a pretty complicated thing. It’s not Americans against Russians (or Iran or China or whoever) proxy conflict. It’s not even a Russia against Turkey proxy war, because Russia also sold a lot of weapons to Azerbaijan. The Armenian government is not on very good terms with Russia, at least for an ally, it’s a bit like how Turkey is not a very reliable American ally and vice versa. The combination of Israel and Turkey supporting Azerbaijan against a diverse group of lukewarm friends/allies of the Armenians including Russia, the USA, France, etc., it’s just not very easy.

    Tl;dr. The Americans are not much involved, so the American press is not much interested. It’s also very complicated, so they avoid it if they can.

    Replies: @iffen, @tyrone, @YetAnotherAnon

    The media is trying to figure out how to make it “orange man bad”…..I miss the war correspondents of yesteryear…….when you said American papers the first thing that popped in my mind was toilet paper…….which is much more useful.

    • Replies: @Digital Samizdat
    @tyrone


    ….when you said American papers the first thing that popped in my mind was toilet paper…….which is much more useful.
     
    Yup. Notice that nobody ever hoards the New York Times!
  33. Eugh. On one side we have a dead-but-doesn’t-yet-know-it nation of Armenia, and on the other we have the fake and gay nation of Azerbaijan (actually just Shia Turkey).

    Unless the Armenians start to breed like rabbits, the land and the region would do better under the custody of an actual civilization. Iran seems like a logical choice, and you can throw ’em the (of course, reduced) carcass of Georgia too.

    • Agree: Ano4
  34. @Another German reader
    Are drones that powerful in conflicts like this? Or are many conflict-parties just ill-equiped?

    A few years ago, I saw that for example the Vietnamese military has put tons of servo-engined legacy AAA-cannons on trucks with EO-sensors. According to local media it's a cheap upgrade but very effective against UAVs.

    Maybe militaries shouldn't have gone full missile.

    Replies: @Kent Nationalist, @reiner Tor, @Tor597, @Justiana, @Vendetta, @Popcorn Time

    There’s nothing magical about drones. They’re smaller, slower airplanes. Very slow. The IAI Harop, the one the Azeris favor so much, has a top speed of only 250 mph. It would lose a straight line race against a late 1930s biplane, and could thus be shot down by even a 1930s era anti-aircraft gun, provided its operators saw it coming.

    The Vietnamese are correct, the answer to these is a lot of cheap flak guns hooked up to a good targeting system. Armenia’s air defenses, however, are overwhelmingly based on missiles, which are generally inefficient for engaging swarms of low value threats.

    These Harop drones aren’t exactly cheap, by the way. India bought a lot of 10 of them in 2009 at $10 million apiece. Perhaps the manufacturing costs have gone down a lot since then, but that’s not a very efficient way for a small country to invest its money.

    $10 million will buy you a top of the line main battle tank, or two of an economy model. $10 million will also go most of the way to buying you a Pantsir S1, which you could use to shoot these down.

    It’s a one use weapon that costs just as much as the targets you’ll be trying to destroy with it. For the price of four or five of these, you could buy a Flanker jet from Russia, which can give you 20-30 years of service and carry out hundreds or even thousands of missions over its lifetime, as opposed to the four or five you get with the suicide drones.

    Unless they’ve succeeded in reducing the cost of these by an order of magnitude or two, they’re an impractical novelty weapon to sell to morons with a lot of money to waste.

    My first thought on seeing these videos was to wonder why the Armenians aren’t using it themselves – how come Russia isn’t selling them its own version of a kamikaze drone?

    It makes sense when you realize it’s not cheap or efficient at all. The Armenians have much less money to play around with and they’re not going to waste it on showboating with meme toys.

    • Thanks: Thulean Friend
    • Replies: @Tor597
    @Vendetta

    You are not talking about the top of the line drones that the US, China, and Russia would field.

    These would be stealthy and much more effective.

    Drones are not meant to replace any facet of a modern military. They are meant to complement it.

    Countries might send cheap and slow drones in first to smoke out AA missiles and guns. S300's have proven to be vulnerable to drone swarms.

    You are right about the cost though. This is where China has a huge advantage. I am sure American UAV's are more advanced but way more expensive. China can afford to send wave after wave of drones at army's to soften them up first if they get the cost down enough.

    Replies: @Blinky Bill

    , @El Dato
    @Vendetta

    A "kamikaze drone" is more accurately called a "cruise missile".

    $10 million apiece is completely out there, you can get a Tomahawk at sub $2 million (but have to pay support systems & training too of course).

    Unless there is a controlling living cat brain in those drones, with a virtual reality where tanks are shown as mice to get good response I don't see why the sticker price is that high.

    Replies: @Vishnugupta

    , @Almost Missouri
    @Vendetta

    Someone may correct me about this, but I think that all those videos of things (and men) getting blown up "by drones" are actually videos of things getting blown up by artillery shells for which the drones are the forward observers.

    They are "drone kills" in a sense because the drone is a key component, but these are relatively cheap observation-commo drones, not expensive missile/suicide drones.

    Indeed, cheap artillery shells + cheap observation drones seems to be an extremely cost-effective military system, judging not least by the above videos.

  35. Seems hard to find reliable numbers, but there are supposedly more Azerbaijanis in Iran than Azerbaijan.

    Only other obvious country that I can think of like that is Mongolia, in relation to China.

    • Replies: @Blinky Bill
    @songbird

    https://twitter.com/razibkhan/status/1311726770492641280?s=20

    Replies: @Felix Keverich, @AltanBakshi, @songbird

    , @Kent Nationalist
    @songbird

    There are more Irish in Britain/America than Ireland

    Replies: @Mikhail

    , @AltanBakshi
    @songbird

    There is Laos, which has less Lao people than Thailand.

    Sad that there are so many people on this site having such infantile and not well established opinions regarding this conflict. Azeris in republic of Azerbaijan have lived separately from Iranian Azeris for almost 200 years for now. Iranian Azeris are very well integrated with the Islamic republic of Iran. Ali Khamenei himself has Azeri roots and they have not experienced the communist and kemalist propaganda like their brethren living in republic of Azerbaijan.
    Iranian Azeris are much more religious and much more connected with their cultural roots, one can say that their historical development has been more "organic."

    And I am very sad that ano4 wants that Russians descend on the level of the Ukrainian far right nationalists. Shouldnt one strive to be better than others?

    Armenians have paid the ultimate price for their collaboration with the Russia. Hamidian massacres and Armenian genocide happened because Turks saw them as Russias fifth coloumn and Armenians would not have gotten as rebellious without Russia annexing neighbouring lands like Kars Oblast and treatening local Christians in much more civilized and egalitarian manner unlike Ottomans with their dhimmis.

    And some ignorant idiots think here that Catholicism is closer to Orthodoxy than Oriental Orthodoxy/Miaphysites, because their separation happened on a later date. By that logic all Protestant sects are automatically closer to Catholic Church than Catholic Church is towards the Orthodoxy. Or gay marriage espiscopals are automatically closer to hard line calvinists. Idiots!

    Russian and Coptic Church have had theological discussions for generations and their conclusion was that there are no hard differences in theology or christology between Miaphysite and Orthodox communion. That the Miaphysites also condemn monophysite theology. But why they cant then unite, you ask? Because both churches have condemned some of others church's saints as heretics. The reasons are not well known anymore, but the tradition of both churches makes changing of their status impossible.

    Replies: @Ano4, @Europe Europa, @AltanBakshi, @songbird, @Anondude

    , @for-the-record
    @songbird

    Only other obvious country that I can think of like that is Mongolia, in relation to China.


    Study: More Jews in US than Israel

    WALTHAM – According to a new study published by Brandeis University’s Steinhardt Social Research Institute, U.S. Jewry has grown 10 percent in the last seven years and now numbers 7.5 million, which is about 1 million more Jews than currently living in Israel.

    https://www.thejewishadvocate.com/articles/study-more-jews-in-us-than-israel/
     

    Replies: @songbird, @Mr. XYZ

  36. @Vendetta
    @Another German reader

    There’s nothing magical about drones. They’re smaller, slower airplanes. Very slow. The IAI Harop, the one the Azeris favor so much, has a top speed of only 250 mph. It would lose a straight line race against a late 1930s biplane, and could thus be shot down by even a 1930s era anti-aircraft gun, provided its operators saw it coming.

    The Vietnamese are correct, the answer to these is a lot of cheap flak guns hooked up to a good targeting system. Armenia’s air defenses, however, are overwhelmingly based on missiles, which are generally inefficient for engaging swarms of low value threats.

    These Harop drones aren’t exactly cheap, by the way. India bought a lot of 10 of them in 2009 at $10 million apiece. Perhaps the manufacturing costs have gone down a lot since then, but that’s not a very efficient way for a small country to invest its money.

    $10 million will buy you a top of the line main battle tank, or two of an economy model. $10 million will also go most of the way to buying you a Pantsir S1, which you could use to shoot these down.

    It’s a one use weapon that costs just as much as the targets you’ll be trying to destroy with it. For the price of four or five of these, you could buy a Flanker jet from Russia, which can give you 20-30 years of service and carry out hundreds or even thousands of missions over its lifetime, as opposed to the four or five you get with the suicide drones.

    Unless they’ve succeeded in reducing the cost of these by an order of magnitude or two, they’re an impractical novelty weapon to sell to morons with a lot of money to waste.

    My first thought on seeing these videos was to wonder why the Armenians aren’t using it themselves - how come Russia isn’t selling them its own version of a kamikaze drone?

    It makes sense when you realize it’s not cheap or efficient at all. The Armenians have much less money to play around with and they’re not going to waste it on showboating with meme toys.

    Replies: @Tor597, @El Dato, @Almost Missouri

    You are not talking about the top of the line drones that the US, China, and Russia would field.

    These would be stealthy and much more effective.

    Drones are not meant to replace any facet of a modern military. They are meant to complement it.

    Countries might send cheap and slow drones in first to smoke out AA missiles and guns. S300’s have proven to be vulnerable to drone swarms.

    You are right about the cost though. This is where China has a huge advantage. I am sure American UAV’s are more advanced but way more expensive. China can afford to send wave after wave of drones at army’s to soften them up first if they get the cost down enough.

    • Replies: @Blinky Bill
    @Tor597


    if they get the cost down enough.
     
    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9a/DJI_Innovations_logo.svg/1200px-DJI_Innovations_logo.svg.png

    Sanctions incoming!
  37. Pashinyan is a Soros plant. I get the impression Pashinyan sees Karabakh as an obstacle to his Western integration plans, would love to give it back, but can’t, because Armenian society is highly nationalistic…

    Armenians are at a major disadvantage, being led by a man, who is not committed to victory.

    • Agree: Digital Samizdat
    • Thanks: GazaPlanet
    • Replies: @Mikhail
    @Felix Keverich

    Orban was at one time Soros funded as well. Ditto some of the svidos - typically those of a sugar coated variant. Soros funded people can be nationalist nonetheless, as long as it's the PC variant - anti-Russian and/or anti-Serb.

    Serbia is an example of Sorosian influence clashing with some mainstream Serb views.

    Kind of related:

    https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2020/10/02/the-brezhnev-doctrine-comes-alive-in-montenegro/

    , @iffen
    @Felix Keverich

    his Western integration plans

    Why would we (the West) want Armenia? Wouldn't that be like "getting" The Ukraine without the benefit of giving the Russkies a major heartburn?

  38. @Felix Keverich
    Pashinyan is a Soros plant. I get the impression Pashinyan sees Karabakh as an obstacle to his Western integration plans, would love to give it back, but can't, because Armenian society is highly nationalistic...

    Armenians are at a major disadvantage, being led by a man, who is not committed to victory.

    Replies: @Mikhail, @iffen

    Orban was at one time Soros funded as well. Ditto some of the svidos – typically those of a sugar coated variant. Soros funded people can be nationalist nonetheless, as long as it’s the PC variant – anti-Russian and/or anti-Serb.

    Serbia is an example of Sorosian influence clashing with some mainstream Serb views.

    Kind of related:

    https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2020/10/02/the-brezhnev-doctrine-comes-alive-in-montenegro/

  39. @songbird
    Seems hard to find reliable numbers, but there are supposedly more Azerbaijanis in Iran than Azerbaijan.

    Only other obvious country that I can think of like that is Mongolia, in relation to China.

    Replies: @Blinky Bill, @Kent Nationalist, @AltanBakshi, @for-the-record

    • Replies: @Felix Keverich
    @Blinky Bill

    There are probably more Armenians in Russia, than in Armenia at this point.

    Replies: @Yevardian

    , @AltanBakshi
    @Blinky Bill

    And there are more Pashtuns/Afghans in Pakistan than there are in Afghanistan.

    Replies: @Blinky Bill

    , @songbird
    @Blinky Bill

    Tajikistan is the "stan" I always forget about.

    And to think - there are almost 10 million people living there. Almost a population the size of Hungary - a country the media was going crazy over, and comparing to Nazi Germany. But they probably haven't mentioned Tajikistan in years.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

  40. @Tor597
    @Vendetta

    You are not talking about the top of the line drones that the US, China, and Russia would field.

    These would be stealthy and much more effective.

    Drones are not meant to replace any facet of a modern military. They are meant to complement it.

    Countries might send cheap and slow drones in first to smoke out AA missiles and guns. S300's have proven to be vulnerable to drone swarms.

    You are right about the cost though. This is where China has a huge advantage. I am sure American UAV's are more advanced but way more expensive. China can afford to send wave after wave of drones at army's to soften them up first if they get the cost down enough.

    Replies: @Blinky Bill

    if they get the cost down enough.

    Sanctions incoming!

  41. @songbird
    Seems hard to find reliable numbers, but there are supposedly more Azerbaijanis in Iran than Azerbaijan.

    Only other obvious country that I can think of like that is Mongolia, in relation to China.

    Replies: @Blinky Bill, @Kent Nationalist, @AltanBakshi, @for-the-record

    There are more Irish in Britain/America than Ireland

    • Replies: @Mikhail
    @Kent Nationalist

    For quite some time, there've been more Jews in the US than in Israel.

  42. @Blinky Bill
    @songbird

    https://twitter.com/razibkhan/status/1311726770492641280?s=20

    Replies: @Felix Keverich, @AltanBakshi, @songbird

    There are probably more Armenians in Russia, than in Armenia at this point.

    • Replies: @Yevardian
    @Felix Keverich

    No doubt. Probably more in America as well, although out-marriage and total assimilation seems far higher there. It should be kept in mind the Armenian SSR is a rump-state comprised of the poorest and least fertile portion of the old Armenian heartland. It's too bad the CIS didn't develop into anything worth talking about or the USSR didn't take the Chinese route or develop into a genuine federation, so many of these pointless wars and deaths of millions could have been avoided.

  43. Jesus Christ would it break the budget to throw a $2 dazzler or a 75cent thermal blanket on your tanks? Is a $100 HackRFOne too much for early warning detectors? It’s like EW isn’t a thing with these people.

    Ugh nothing is worse than seeing a military that just buy things from the catalog. No innovation or novel tactics/usage or even hack additions. Seeing North Korea spam blinding lasers willy nilly is great. Watching Iran test out small ekranoplans is cool. Watching Israel produced specialized weapon systems is fascinating. Even South Africa and its doctrinal decision to use wheel mobile armor pieces. You can appreciate the decision and rational behind it.

    Watching two assholes throw stock toys at each other is boring.

    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
    @Max Payne

    What kind of laser dazzler can you buy for $2? A green hand-held laser pointer? I don't see how that could defend a tank, could you explain?

  44. @anonymous599
    Do you have any source besides from some propaganda accounts regarding with Syrian mercenaries? I am very skeptical since we haven't seen any video leaked by them (which they always do since they're pretty stupid.). Although one can argue that it is quite similar in Libya as well (I haven't seen anything on the social media from them, especially a widely circulating one, even though their existence have been known for quite some time). Also, I am very skeptical about their behaviour in Shia majority country since, to put it mildy, they don't like Shias.

    Replies: @AltSerrice, @SIMP simp

    • Replies: @anonymous599
    @SIMP simp

    Macron seems to have specific problem with Erdogan, can't really take him seriously about anything regarding with Turkey. I would like to see visual proof from multiple sources involving multiple soldiers. I mean, at the end of the day, even Russian mercenaries can be found, so I don't expect Syrians/Turkish officials to cover all of their traces. Also, I have read in some other places about their salaries (1000$). There is no way Turkey pays that much. I mean if they pay that, you can simply recruit from Turkey (Only 10% of the population earn 1000$ per month).

    Replies: @Anondude

  45. @Justiana
    @Another German reader

    Turkey have second best drone fleet right know. After Americans. People try to underestimate Turks but their drone warfare is on spot. Drones don't win wars, but dramatically increase loses of enemies. Only Russia have good record while fighting of drones.

    Replies: @SIMP simp

    Turkish drones inflicted heavy losses on Russian allies in libya and Syria

  46. @tyrone
    @reiner Tor

    The media is trying to figure out how to make it "orange man bad"…..I miss the war correspondents of yesteryear…….when you said American papers the first thing that popped in my mind was toilet paper…….which is much more useful.

    Replies: @Digital Samizdat

    ….when you said American papers the first thing that popped in my mind was toilet paper…….which is much more useful.

    Yup. Notice that nobody ever hoards the New York Times!

  47. The Armenian Lobby might be powerful, but the Israel Lobby it is not.

    Exactly. And that’s why the State Department will never chide Turkey over the Armenian Genocide: because every time the Armenian Lobby tries to get such a resolution through Congress, the Israel Lobby steps in and nixes it. In Washington, there’s no lobby that can beat The Lobby.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
    @Digital Samizdat

    When Israel-Turkey relations soured, there has been more talk within US establishment circles about supporting the Armenian genocide status, along with recognizing the plight of the Kurds.

    It can get nuanced. With votes in mind, southern California establishment politicos have been at the forefront of giving lip service to Armenian issues.

    https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2019-12-14/adam-schiff-armenian-town-hall

  48. @Vendetta
    @Another German reader

    There’s nothing magical about drones. They’re smaller, slower airplanes. Very slow. The IAI Harop, the one the Azeris favor so much, has a top speed of only 250 mph. It would lose a straight line race against a late 1930s biplane, and could thus be shot down by even a 1930s era anti-aircraft gun, provided its operators saw it coming.

    The Vietnamese are correct, the answer to these is a lot of cheap flak guns hooked up to a good targeting system. Armenia’s air defenses, however, are overwhelmingly based on missiles, which are generally inefficient for engaging swarms of low value threats.

    These Harop drones aren’t exactly cheap, by the way. India bought a lot of 10 of them in 2009 at $10 million apiece. Perhaps the manufacturing costs have gone down a lot since then, but that’s not a very efficient way for a small country to invest its money.

    $10 million will buy you a top of the line main battle tank, or two of an economy model. $10 million will also go most of the way to buying you a Pantsir S1, which you could use to shoot these down.

    It’s a one use weapon that costs just as much as the targets you’ll be trying to destroy with it. For the price of four or five of these, you could buy a Flanker jet from Russia, which can give you 20-30 years of service and carry out hundreds or even thousands of missions over its lifetime, as opposed to the four or five you get with the suicide drones.

    Unless they’ve succeeded in reducing the cost of these by an order of magnitude or two, they’re an impractical novelty weapon to sell to morons with a lot of money to waste.

    My first thought on seeing these videos was to wonder why the Armenians aren’t using it themselves - how come Russia isn’t selling them its own version of a kamikaze drone?

    It makes sense when you realize it’s not cheap or efficient at all. The Armenians have much less money to play around with and they’re not going to waste it on showboating with meme toys.

    Replies: @Tor597, @El Dato, @Almost Missouri

    A “kamikaze drone” is more accurately called a “cruise missile”.

    $10 million apiece is completely out there, you can get a Tomahawk at sub $2 million (but have to pay support systems & training too of course).

    Unless there is a controlling living cat brain in those drones, with a virtual reality where tanks are shown as mice to get good response I don’t see why the sticker price is that high.

    • Replies: @Vishnugupta
    @El Dato

    Its significantly different from a cruise missile.

    It can loiter over a target for something like an hour and in many scenarios in which a target is not found/ Strike called off can fly back be refueled and used again.

    Think of it as sort of a UCAV/Observation Drone hybrid.

    It also has a much smaller RCS and IR signature than a typical cruise missile even stealthy ones like Taurus and SCALP.

    Countries that operate this model and its predecessor include South Korea,Singapore,Israel, India,Turkey..So obviously there us a solid tactical case for procuring these at $10 million..

  49. @reiner Tor
    @iffen

    As you noticed, the USA is not very relevant to this conflict. So perhaps American papers are not very much interested in it.

    It’s also a pretty complicated thing. It’s not Americans against Russians (or Iran or China or whoever) proxy conflict. It’s not even a Russia against Turkey proxy war, because Russia also sold a lot of weapons to Azerbaijan. The Armenian government is not on very good terms with Russia, at least for an ally, it’s a bit like how Turkey is not a very reliable American ally and vice versa. The combination of Israel and Turkey supporting Azerbaijan against a diverse group of lukewarm friends/allies of the Armenians including Russia, the USA, France, etc., it’s just not very easy.

    Tl;dr. The Americans are not much involved, so the American press is not much interested. It’s also very complicated, so they avoid it if they can.

    Replies: @iffen, @tyrone, @YetAnotherAnon

    “the USA is not very relevant to this conflict”

    They weren’t relevant to Syria either, but they funded and trained the ‘moderate terrorists’ there, and gave the resulting civil war top billing.

    I remember, was it Christmas 2015? Aleppo was the first or second item on every news bulletin.

    • Replies: @iffen
    @YetAnotherAnon


    @reiner Tor
    “the USA is not very relevant to this conflict”
     
    I might be off on a useless tangent, but I definitely think we are hearing a dog that is not barking. Maybe the MSM are waiting on the Azeris to win and launch the payback for the ethnic cleansing by the Armenians in the 90's. It is possible that they are undecided about how to spin it. They definitely don’t like the idea of the Turks going rogue all the time, but then they don't like the idea that Russia is checking them in some of their operations. Decisions, decisions, what’s best for me?

    Anyway, I don't buy the not very relevant argument, because it is backwards. They tell us what is relevant and what is not.
  50. @Felix Keverich
    Pashinyan is a Soros plant. I get the impression Pashinyan sees Karabakh as an obstacle to his Western integration plans, would love to give it back, but can't, because Armenian society is highly nationalistic...

    Armenians are at a major disadvantage, being led by a man, who is not committed to victory.

    Replies: @Mikhail, @iffen

    his Western integration plans

    Why would we (the West) want Armenia? Wouldn’t that be like “getting” The Ukraine without the benefit of giving the Russkies a major heartburn?

  51. @Max Payne
    Jesus Christ would it break the budget to throw a $2 dazzler or a 75cent thermal blanket on your tanks? Is a $100 HackRFOne too much for early warning detectors? It's like EW isn't a thing with these people.

    Ugh nothing is worse than seeing a military that just buy things from the catalog. No innovation or novel tactics/usage or even hack additions. Seeing North Korea spam blinding lasers willy nilly is great. Watching Iran test out small ekranoplans is cool. Watching Israel produced specialized weapon systems is fascinating. Even South Africa and its doctrinal decision to use wheel mobile armor pieces. You can appreciate the decision and rational behind it.

    Watching two assholes throw stock toys at each other is boring.

    Replies: @YetAnotherAnon

    What kind of laser dazzler can you buy for $2? A green hand-held laser pointer? I don’t see how that could defend a tank, could you explain?

  52. The Russo-Japanese war also gave some insights into early modern warfare

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @Korenchkin

    Or the Balkan Wars, a year and a half before the Great War.

    Replies: @Korenchkin

  53. @YetAnotherAnon
    @reiner Tor

    "the USA is not very relevant to this conflict"

    They weren't relevant to Syria either, but they funded and trained the 'moderate terrorists' there, and gave the resulting civil war top billing.

    I remember, was it Christmas 2015? Aleppo was the first or second item on every news bulletin.

    Replies: @iffen


    “the USA is not very relevant to this conflict”

    I might be off on a useless tangent, but I definitely think we are hearing a dog that is not barking. Maybe the MSM are waiting on the Azeris to win and launch the payback for the ethnic cleansing by the Armenians in the 90’s. It is possible that they are undecided about how to spin it. They definitely don’t like the idea of the Turks going rogue all the time, but then they don’t like the idea that Russia is checking them in some of their operations. Decisions, decisions, what’s best for me?

    Anyway, I don’t buy the not very relevant argument, because it is backwards. They tell us what is relevant and what is not.

    • Agree: John Regan
  54. @El Dato
    @Vendetta

    A "kamikaze drone" is more accurately called a "cruise missile".

    $10 million apiece is completely out there, you can get a Tomahawk at sub $2 million (but have to pay support systems & training too of course).

    Unless there is a controlling living cat brain in those drones, with a virtual reality where tanks are shown as mice to get good response I don't see why the sticker price is that high.

    Replies: @Vishnugupta

    Its significantly different from a cruise missile.

    It can loiter over a target for something like an hour and in many scenarios in which a target is not found/ Strike called off can fly back be refueled and used again.

    Think of it as sort of a UCAV/Observation Drone hybrid.

    It also has a much smaller RCS and IR signature than a typical cruise missile even stealthy ones like Taurus and SCALP.

    Countries that operate this model and its predecessor include South Korea,Singapore,Israel, India,Turkey..So obviously there us a solid tactical case for procuring these at $10 million..

  55. @songbird
    Seems hard to find reliable numbers, but there are supposedly more Azerbaijanis in Iran than Azerbaijan.

    Only other obvious country that I can think of like that is Mongolia, in relation to China.

    Replies: @Blinky Bill, @Kent Nationalist, @AltanBakshi, @for-the-record

    There is Laos, which has less Lao people than Thailand.

    Sad that there are so many people on this site having such infantile and not well established opinions regarding this conflict. Azeris in republic of Azerbaijan have lived separately from Iranian Azeris for almost 200 years for now. Iranian Azeris are very well integrated with the Islamic republic of Iran. Ali Khamenei himself has Azeri roots and they have not experienced the communist and kemalist propaganda like their brethren living in republic of Azerbaijan.
    Iranian Azeris are much more religious and much more connected with their cultural roots, one can say that their historical development has been more “organic.”

    And I am very sad that ano4 wants that Russians descend on the level of the Ukrainian far right nationalists. Shouldnt one strive to be better than others?

    Armenians have paid the ultimate price for their collaboration with the Russia. Hamidian massacres and Armenian genocide happened because Turks saw them as Russias fifth coloumn and Armenians would not have gotten as rebellious without Russia annexing neighbouring lands like Kars Oblast and treatening local Christians in much more civilized and egalitarian manner unlike Ottomans with their dhimmis.

    And some ignorant idiots think here that Catholicism is closer to Orthodoxy than Oriental Orthodoxy/Miaphysites, because their separation happened on a later date. By that logic all Protestant sects are automatically closer to Catholic Church than Catholic Church is towards the Orthodoxy. Or gay marriage espiscopals are automatically closer to hard line calvinists. Idiots!

    Russian and Coptic Church have had theological discussions for generations and their conclusion was that there are no hard differences in theology or christology between Miaphysite and Orthodox communion. That the Miaphysites also condemn monophysite theology. But why they cant then unite, you ask? Because both churches have condemned some of others church’s saints as heretics. The reasons are not well known anymore, but the tradition of both churches makes changing of their status impossible.

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @AltanBakshi


    And I am very sad that ano4 wants that Russians descend on the level of the Ukrainian far right nationalists. Shouldnt one strive to be better than others ?
     
    Welcome back!

    We should indeed strive to be better people. Not just compared to others, but first and foremost compared to ourselves.

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/russias-options-in-artsakh-war/#comments

    See my comment # 265

    , @Europe Europa
    @AltanBakshi

    Isn't saying Azerbaijan Azeris and Iranian Azeris are the same people almost like saying British people and white Australians/New Zealanders are the same people?

    Mostly the same roots and have a very similar culture, but have been geographically and politically separated for long enough now that no one would think of them as the same people.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    , @AltanBakshi
    @AltanBakshi

    I forgot to add that it was Soviets who gave Kars oblast and Ararat to the nascent republic of Turkey, for some reason, even though Turkey in 20s was dependent on Soviet funding and arm shipments.

    Replies: @gT

    , @songbird
    @AltanBakshi

    I guess the Lao only constitute 53.2% of the population of Laos - didn't realize it was so low. I suppose most in Thailand must have been made vassals of Siam or been otherwise conquered, rather than been refugees from the communists, though about 10% of the pop fled after they took power.

    , @Anondude
    @AltanBakshi

    "Armenians have paid the ultimate price for their collaboration with the Russia. Hamidian massacres and Armenian genocide happened because Turks saw them as Russias fifth coloumn and Armenians would not have gotten as rebellious without Russia annexing neighbouring lands like Kars Oblast and treatening local Christians in much more civilized and egalitarian manner unlike Ottomans with their dhimmis."

    Congrats, you've managed to hand waive genocide. And, the Tutsis wouldn't have been slaughtered and they not been the favorites of the colonial power, and not arrogantly been more successful than they're 15% of the population warranted. And, teh Jews would not have been subject to the Holocaust had they not been the primary movers behind the Spartacist uprisings. And, the Ukranians would not have been subject to the Holodomor had they not had so many who harbored counter-revoluntionary sentiments. And, the professionals and intellectuals of Cambodia would not have been subject to the Killing Fields had they simply let go of their attachment to a pre-year zero world. The list of excuses for genocide goes on and on. Funny how the Turks managed to complete the trifecta, genocide of the Armenians, Greeks, and Assyrians.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

  56. @Blinky Bill
    @songbird

    https://twitter.com/razibkhan/status/1311726770492641280?s=20

    Replies: @Felix Keverich, @AltanBakshi, @songbird

    And there are more Pashtuns/Afghans in Pakistan than there are in Afghanistan.

    • Replies: @Blinky Bill
    @AltanBakshi

    Welcome back AltanBakshi, your contributions were sorely missed!

  57. @Kent Nationalist
    @songbird

    There are more Irish in Britain/America than Ireland

    Replies: @Mikhail

    For quite some time, there’ve been more Jews in the US than in Israel.

  58. @AltanBakshi
    @Blinky Bill

    And there are more Pashtuns/Afghans in Pakistan than there are in Afghanistan.

    Replies: @Blinky Bill

    Welcome back AltanBakshi, your contributions were sorely missed!

    • Agree: Ano4, Denis
    • Thanks: AltanBakshi
  59. @Digital Samizdat

    The Armenian Lobby might be powerful, but the Israel Lobby it is not.
     
    Exactly. And that's why the State Department will never chide Turkey over the Armenian Genocide: because every time the Armenian Lobby tries to get such a resolution through Congress, the Israel Lobby steps in and nixes it. In Washington, there's no lobby that can beat The Lobby.

    Replies: @Mikhail

    When Israel-Turkey relations soured, there has been more talk within US establishment circles about supporting the Armenian genocide status, along with recognizing the plight of the Kurds.

    It can get nuanced. With votes in mind, southern California establishment politicos have been at the forefront of giving lip service to Armenian issues.

    https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2019-12-14/adam-schiff-armenian-town-hall

  60. @AltanBakshi
    @songbird

    There is Laos, which has less Lao people than Thailand.

    Sad that there are so many people on this site having such infantile and not well established opinions regarding this conflict. Azeris in republic of Azerbaijan have lived separately from Iranian Azeris for almost 200 years for now. Iranian Azeris are very well integrated with the Islamic republic of Iran. Ali Khamenei himself has Azeri roots and they have not experienced the communist and kemalist propaganda like their brethren living in republic of Azerbaijan.
    Iranian Azeris are much more religious and much more connected with their cultural roots, one can say that their historical development has been more "organic."

    And I am very sad that ano4 wants that Russians descend on the level of the Ukrainian far right nationalists. Shouldnt one strive to be better than others?

    Armenians have paid the ultimate price for their collaboration with the Russia. Hamidian massacres and Armenian genocide happened because Turks saw them as Russias fifth coloumn and Armenians would not have gotten as rebellious without Russia annexing neighbouring lands like Kars Oblast and treatening local Christians in much more civilized and egalitarian manner unlike Ottomans with their dhimmis.

    And some ignorant idiots think here that Catholicism is closer to Orthodoxy than Oriental Orthodoxy/Miaphysites, because their separation happened on a later date. By that logic all Protestant sects are automatically closer to Catholic Church than Catholic Church is towards the Orthodoxy. Or gay marriage espiscopals are automatically closer to hard line calvinists. Idiots!

    Russian and Coptic Church have had theological discussions for generations and their conclusion was that there are no hard differences in theology or christology between Miaphysite and Orthodox communion. That the Miaphysites also condemn monophysite theology. But why they cant then unite, you ask? Because both churches have condemned some of others church's saints as heretics. The reasons are not well known anymore, but the tradition of both churches makes changing of their status impossible.

    Replies: @Ano4, @Europe Europa, @AltanBakshi, @songbird, @Anondude

    And I am very sad that ano4 wants that Russians descend on the level of the Ukrainian far right nationalists. Shouldnt one strive to be better than others ?

    Welcome back!

    We should indeed strive to be better people. Not just compared to others, but first and foremost compared to ourselves.

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/russias-options-in-artsakh-war/#comments

    See my comment # 265

    • Thanks: AltanBakshi
  61. @AltanBakshi
    @songbird

    There is Laos, which has less Lao people than Thailand.

    Sad that there are so many people on this site having such infantile and not well established opinions regarding this conflict. Azeris in republic of Azerbaijan have lived separately from Iranian Azeris for almost 200 years for now. Iranian Azeris are very well integrated with the Islamic republic of Iran. Ali Khamenei himself has Azeri roots and they have not experienced the communist and kemalist propaganda like their brethren living in republic of Azerbaijan.
    Iranian Azeris are much more religious and much more connected with their cultural roots, one can say that their historical development has been more "organic."

    And I am very sad that ano4 wants that Russians descend on the level of the Ukrainian far right nationalists. Shouldnt one strive to be better than others?

    Armenians have paid the ultimate price for their collaboration with the Russia. Hamidian massacres and Armenian genocide happened because Turks saw them as Russias fifth coloumn and Armenians would not have gotten as rebellious without Russia annexing neighbouring lands like Kars Oblast and treatening local Christians in much more civilized and egalitarian manner unlike Ottomans with their dhimmis.

    And some ignorant idiots think here that Catholicism is closer to Orthodoxy than Oriental Orthodoxy/Miaphysites, because their separation happened on a later date. By that logic all Protestant sects are automatically closer to Catholic Church than Catholic Church is towards the Orthodoxy. Or gay marriage espiscopals are automatically closer to hard line calvinists. Idiots!

    Russian and Coptic Church have had theological discussions for generations and their conclusion was that there are no hard differences in theology or christology between Miaphysite and Orthodox communion. That the Miaphysites also condemn monophysite theology. But why they cant then unite, you ask? Because both churches have condemned some of others church's saints as heretics. The reasons are not well known anymore, but the tradition of both churches makes changing of their status impossible.

    Replies: @Ano4, @Europe Europa, @AltanBakshi, @songbird, @Anondude

    Isn’t saying Azerbaijan Azeris and Iranian Azeris are the same people almost like saying British people and white Australians/New Zealanders are the same people?

    Mostly the same roots and have a very similar culture, but have been geographically and politically separated for long enough now that no one would think of them as the same people.

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @Europe Europa

    You always try to make strange anglo-analogies? How I could explain this to you? Lets say that half of Scotland was occupied by a revolutionary French Empire and and after one hundred years that empire would undergo a Communist revolution, but for couple years before the revolution there would be an independent government in that part of Scotland supported by Ireland. And that now that part of Scotland would be an independent and sovereign country. Oh and that Ireland of past would have had many pan-Celtic leaders. Young Celts?

    Really I know that you guys are the archetypical universalists, but.... oh well....

    Replies: @Europe Europa

  62. @AltanBakshi
    @songbird

    There is Laos, which has less Lao people than Thailand.

    Sad that there are so many people on this site having such infantile and not well established opinions regarding this conflict. Azeris in republic of Azerbaijan have lived separately from Iranian Azeris for almost 200 years for now. Iranian Azeris are very well integrated with the Islamic republic of Iran. Ali Khamenei himself has Azeri roots and they have not experienced the communist and kemalist propaganda like their brethren living in republic of Azerbaijan.
    Iranian Azeris are much more religious and much more connected with their cultural roots, one can say that their historical development has been more "organic."

    And I am very sad that ano4 wants that Russians descend on the level of the Ukrainian far right nationalists. Shouldnt one strive to be better than others?

    Armenians have paid the ultimate price for their collaboration with the Russia. Hamidian massacres and Armenian genocide happened because Turks saw them as Russias fifth coloumn and Armenians would not have gotten as rebellious without Russia annexing neighbouring lands like Kars Oblast and treatening local Christians in much more civilized and egalitarian manner unlike Ottomans with their dhimmis.

    And some ignorant idiots think here that Catholicism is closer to Orthodoxy than Oriental Orthodoxy/Miaphysites, because their separation happened on a later date. By that logic all Protestant sects are automatically closer to Catholic Church than Catholic Church is towards the Orthodoxy. Or gay marriage espiscopals are automatically closer to hard line calvinists. Idiots!

    Russian and Coptic Church have had theological discussions for generations and their conclusion was that there are no hard differences in theology or christology between Miaphysite and Orthodox communion. That the Miaphysites also condemn monophysite theology. But why they cant then unite, you ask? Because both churches have condemned some of others church's saints as heretics. The reasons are not well known anymore, but the tradition of both churches makes changing of their status impossible.

    Replies: @Ano4, @Europe Europa, @AltanBakshi, @songbird, @Anondude

    I forgot to add that it was Soviets who gave Kars oblast and Ararat to the nascent republic of Turkey, for some reason, even though Turkey in 20s was dependent on Soviet funding and arm shipments.

    • Replies: @gT
    @AltanBakshi

    When Turkey became a Republic in the 1920's, it was a crypto Jew, Mustafa Kemal later named Ataturk, who was in charge. The newly formed communist Russia (lots of Jews in charge) financed Mustafa to the hilt enabling him to kick out the Greeks, deal with the Armenians etc. Jews don't like Armenians because they are too good at business, never knew that Armenian land was even given to Turkey.

    Replies: @Almost Missouri

  63. @Europe Europa
    @AltanBakshi

    Isn't saying Azerbaijan Azeris and Iranian Azeris are the same people almost like saying British people and white Australians/New Zealanders are the same people?

    Mostly the same roots and have a very similar culture, but have been geographically and politically separated for long enough now that no one would think of them as the same people.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    You always try to make strange anglo-analogies? How I could explain this to you? Lets say that half of Scotland was occupied by a revolutionary French Empire and and after one hundred years that empire would undergo a Communist revolution, but for couple years before the revolution there would be an independent government in that part of Scotland supported by Ireland. And that now that part of Scotland would be an independent and sovereign country. Oh and that Ireland of past would have had many pan-Celtic leaders. Young Celts?

    Really I know that you guys are the archetypical universalists, but…. oh well….

    • Replies: @Europe Europa
    @AltanBakshi

    The example I used was Australia and New Zealand, not Scotland and Ireland. White Australians and New Zealanders are very similar to English people, so much so that Americans and others find it very difficult to even tell the accents apart in my experience.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

  64. @SIMP simp
    @anonymous599

    France accused them.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-armenia-azerbaijan-putin-macron/france-accuses-turkey-of-sending-syrian-mercenaries-to-nagorno-karabakh-idUSKBN26L3SB

    Replies: @anonymous599

    Macron seems to have specific problem with Erdogan, can’t really take him seriously about anything regarding with Turkey. I would like to see visual proof from multiple sources involving multiple soldiers. I mean, at the end of the day, even Russian mercenaries can be found, so I don’t expect Syrians/Turkish officials to cover all of their traces. Also, I have read in some other places about their salaries (1000$). There is no way Turkey pays that much. I mean if they pay that, you can simply recruit from Turkey (Only 10% of the population earn 1000$ per month).

    • Replies: @Anondude
    @anonymous599

    Erdogen is not foolish enough to send actual Turkish citizens to die in Libya or Karabakh. That would take the air out of any enthusiasm in Turkey for such foreign adventures.

    The figure quoted by Syrian mercs is $2,000, who claim they were told they would be guarding oil pipelines, not fighting in a war.

  65. @AltSerrice
    @anonymous599

    I'd imagine that when they're on the Turkish payroll, rather than free-roaming around Idlib, there are restrictions on bringing ID and mobile devices into battle.

    Replies: @anonymous599

    It’s not easy to control them. I mean if you move 4k fighters, you don’t need to do anything expect looking/searching in the Syria, right? You can look at the areas under Turkey’s direct control in the North or Idlib, I bet you can find evidence easily. It would make more sense if we see some Turkish citizens on the frontline (There were a lot of Turkish citizens fought in Syria for all sides.). At the end of the day, Azerbaijan is not Libya.

  66. Since the beginning of the current war on September 27 based off the underlying factors and the evidence I have seen it seems highly likely Azerbaijan will be able to achieve its strategic goals, in many key areas Azerbaijan seems to have a decisive advantage over Armenia and that advantage is likely to remain unless facts on the ground change.

    In terms of equipment, Azerbaijan obviously has larger military stockpiles overall, but just as importantly, Turkey which likely has large reserves of equipment and ammunition in reserve can keep Azerbaijan supplied as long as possible, Armenia has no such benefactor at the moment, in addition, Turkey can obviously produce equipment in terms of drones and other weapons delivery platforms as required to replace any losses the Azeri’s might sustain. Also it should be noted Turkey does have the economic capacity to easily replace any losses Azerbaijan incurs and inundate Armenia with equipment if required, Armenia’s whole GDP in nominal terms is only $13 billion, Turkey’s defence budget in 2019 was $20.4 billion.

    In terms of manpower, again the odds favour Azerbaijan, it possesses 10 million inhabitants to Armenia’s 2.95 million, a ratio of 3.4:1, even more worryingly for Armenia, due to higher Azeri fertility rates post 1991, the ratio in terms of young men is even worse for Armenia as it has an older age structure. Among men aged 20-29, Azerbaijan’s advantage rises to 4:1, in addition as pointed out in the blog post, Azerbaijan has access to Turkish mercenaries, and if required, it is not inconceivable Turkey might be willing to send soldiers to fight in Azeri uniform, Turkey has a large army and reserve force after all and most Turks and I assume this holds for Turkish soldiers as well dislike Armenians.

    Regarding intelligence, it is almost certain Turkey is using its satellites and aerial reconnaissance aircraft to feed intelligence to the Azeri’s regarding Armenian troop positions and movements, Azerbaijan also clearly has air control over the battlefield which will help it in terms of gathering intelligence, as such it is likely that Azerbaijan is more well informed of Armenian troop dispositions than vice versa.

    In closing, considering Azerbaijan’s advantages in equipment, manpower and intelligence, it is likely Azerbaijan will achieve the strategic aims it has set for itself in this war; of course the Armenians have the advantage of defending hilly terrain, and fortune matters in war as well so Armenia could win but I think it is more likely that Azerbaijan will win.

    • Thanks: iffen, reiner Tor
    • Replies: @Anondude
    @Annatar

    You raise excellent points, especially about the intel advantage that comes from Turkish satellites and reconnaissance. I have a few quibbles.

    1. To truly achieve its strategic aims, Azerbijan would have to recapture Karabakh. At this point, that is an existential issue in Armenia and they would likely fight to the last soldier on that point. While it may seem suicidal, I doubt that Azerbijian would be willing to take the heavy casualties required by such a fight. As deGaulle supposedly said when told force de frappe was useless because France could never defeat the Soviet Union, "I only need to take off an arm," i.e., I only need to be able to inflict unacceptable losses on the enemy to deter him. That leads to the second point.

    2. The huge advantage in manpower only works if you're actually willing to accept large numbers of casualties. I seriously doubt Azerbijian is willing to accept such a large number of body bags returning to Baku. All of the conflicts since 94 have been relatively minor and neither side has been forced to test the theory that they were wiling to fight to the death. There is a reason they are using Syrian mercs. Part of it is because they are battle-tested, but it is also because it keeps the tally of Azeri deaths low.

    3. The issue of the terrain and the advantage is gives to the defending party should not be understated. It is already playing out. Based on force advantage alone, Azeri forces should be making bigger advances than we've seen.

    4. While Moscow would like to see Pashinyan get his commeuppance, there is a limit to how weak it is willing to see Armenia become.

    5. Turkey becoming more open about its involvement in the conflict is likely a bridge too far for Moscow. So, there is a limit to the aid that Turkey supplies, and I suspect that limit is in openly providing Turkish troops to the conflict.

    Ultimately, I think Azerbijian will recover some of the corridor, but i seriously doubt it will end up with Karabakh or that it can succeed in encircling it. It will have changed the facts on the ground and weakened Armenia, but actually accomplishing its stated goal seems rather unlikely.

  67. @AltanBakshi
    @Europe Europa

    You always try to make strange anglo-analogies? How I could explain this to you? Lets say that half of Scotland was occupied by a revolutionary French Empire and and after one hundred years that empire would undergo a Communist revolution, but for couple years before the revolution there would be an independent government in that part of Scotland supported by Ireland. And that now that part of Scotland would be an independent and sovereign country. Oh and that Ireland of past would have had many pan-Celtic leaders. Young Celts?

    Really I know that you guys are the archetypical universalists, but.... oh well....

    Replies: @Europe Europa

    The example I used was Australia and New Zealand, not Scotland and Ireland. White Australians and New Zealanders are very similar to English people, so much so that Americans and others find it very difficult to even tell the accents apart in my experience.

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @Europe Europa

    But either Iranian Azerbaijan or republic of Azerbaijan are not their own land masses beyond sea and they were not colonized relatively recently. Also people there have not nlived under a foreign and revolutionary administration. Your analogies are too far fetched....

  68. Also AK you are wrong. Diversity is strength of Iran, not multiethnic Iran would be a weaker and less significant country than Poland with similar population size and without any oil or gas. Traditional empires were truly multicultural. Liberal and soviet multiculturalism is same, just superficial differences like ethnic clothing and food but no real diversity.

  69. @Europe Europa
    @AltanBakshi

    The example I used was Australia and New Zealand, not Scotland and Ireland. White Australians and New Zealanders are very similar to English people, so much so that Americans and others find it very difficult to even tell the accents apart in my experience.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    But either Iranian Azerbaijan or republic of Azerbaijan are not their own land masses beyond sea and they were not colonized relatively recently. Also people there have not nlived under a foreign and revolutionary administration. Your analogies are too far fetched….

  70. @Vendetta
    @Another German reader

    There’s nothing magical about drones. They’re smaller, slower airplanes. Very slow. The IAI Harop, the one the Azeris favor so much, has a top speed of only 250 mph. It would lose a straight line race against a late 1930s biplane, and could thus be shot down by even a 1930s era anti-aircraft gun, provided its operators saw it coming.

    The Vietnamese are correct, the answer to these is a lot of cheap flak guns hooked up to a good targeting system. Armenia’s air defenses, however, are overwhelmingly based on missiles, which are generally inefficient for engaging swarms of low value threats.

    These Harop drones aren’t exactly cheap, by the way. India bought a lot of 10 of them in 2009 at $10 million apiece. Perhaps the manufacturing costs have gone down a lot since then, but that’s not a very efficient way for a small country to invest its money.

    $10 million will buy you a top of the line main battle tank, or two of an economy model. $10 million will also go most of the way to buying you a Pantsir S1, which you could use to shoot these down.

    It’s a one use weapon that costs just as much as the targets you’ll be trying to destroy with it. For the price of four or five of these, you could buy a Flanker jet from Russia, which can give you 20-30 years of service and carry out hundreds or even thousands of missions over its lifetime, as opposed to the four or five you get with the suicide drones.

    Unless they’ve succeeded in reducing the cost of these by an order of magnitude or two, they’re an impractical novelty weapon to sell to morons with a lot of money to waste.

    My first thought on seeing these videos was to wonder why the Armenians aren’t using it themselves - how come Russia isn’t selling them its own version of a kamikaze drone?

    It makes sense when you realize it’s not cheap or efficient at all. The Armenians have much less money to play around with and they’re not going to waste it on showboating with meme toys.

    Replies: @Tor597, @El Dato, @Almost Missouri

    Someone may correct me about this, but I think that all those videos of things (and men) getting blown up “by drones” are actually videos of things getting blown up by artillery shells for which the drones are the forward observers.

    They are “drone kills” in a sense because the drone is a key component, but these are relatively cheap observation-commo drones, not expensive missile/suicide drones.

    Indeed, cheap artillery shells + cheap observation drones seems to be an extremely cost-effective military system, judging not least by the above videos.

    • Agree: Not Raul
  71. @iffen
    @reiner Tor

    Interesting that AK's blog provides a lot more information on the conflict than the Jew York Times. The quality article that I read there was mostly about Turkey.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Kent Nationalist, @Almost Missouri, @Yevardian

    Despite its pretensions, the NYT (and most Western media today) have very few actual reporters, i.e., people on the ground, outside of the HQ bubble, who are conversant in the local language and culture. So when there is an Armenian-Azeri war and the NYT‘s response is something-something-Turkey-something, that translates as “ignorant NYT HQ checks map, phones up English-speaking stringer in Istanbul”.

    The Western prestige press do have plenty of people at headquarters ready to shape any incoming reports into the standard narratives though (all chiefs, no Indians, as we used to say). Even if they did have actual reporters, the Armenian-Azeri conflict is convoluted enough to occasion a lot of Editorial Meetings where they would have to hash out semi-plausible spin. That’s time-consuming and painful. Being fundamentally lazy and incurious, they’ll just wait and see what happens until there is an opening for an OrangeManBad article or two. Much easier just to stick to the standard narrative.

  72. @iffen
    @reiner Tor

    Interesting that AK's blog provides a lot more information on the conflict than the Jew York Times. The quality article that I read there was mostly about Turkey.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Kent Nationalist, @Almost Missouri, @Yevardian

    The New York Times mostly concerns itself with rapper bios and the latest Trump tweets these days, even Lebedev’s ‘The Independent’ is better at this point, at least while Robert Fisk is still writing there, anyway.

  73. @reiner Tor
    I actually think that the Azeris are doomed. Hungary seems to be supporting them. Hungary has lost all its wars for centuries. The Central Powers were finished. The Axis, too. The Warsaw Pact is no longer. NATO is going to be next, probably. The Azeris are going to lose.

    Replies: @Yevardian, @Mr. XYZ

    I noticed that. How damaged does your national psyche have to be that you want to LARP as T*rks of all people? Obviously you still haven’t recovered from Mohacs. Although going from the regional great power to being bullied by Slovaks and Romanians is quite a fall, admittedly.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @Yevardian

    Where do I start?

    The “support” we are giving is basically Orbán’s foreign minister mentioning that Karabakh is a part of the internationally recognized territory of Azerbaijan, which is true. Even Armenia itself hasn’t yet recognized Karabakh as anything but a province of Azerbaijan.

    Second, you might have noticed that I have never been totally enthusiastic about Orbán’s government, and frequently mentioned their low ethical standards, especially corruption, but some other issues as well. I have asked you once about the axe murderer - his release to Azerbaijan was a major scandal in Hungary, and I would have thought Armenians around the world have heard of it. Anyway, this was mostly due to the Turks providing Orbán with a large loan while he was short of cash, Azerbaijan providing the state owned Hungarian oil company with concessions, and probably some money directly into Orbán’s pockets (at least that’s the standard expectation for whatever Orbán does).

    But since the release of that murderer, Orbán cannot have changed course, because the Armenians would never like or trust him after this, so his choice is basically reduced to being hated by both the Turks/Azeris and the Armenians, or the Armenians only. Obviously he consistently chooses the latter.

    Regardless of this, Orbán has advocated closing the EU borders in 2015 and not giving in to Erdogan’s blackmail, which shows the limits of Erdogan’s influence over him.

    BTW the pro-Turk policy is not very popular in Hungary, even among Orbán’s voters. I have met lots of people passionately defending his kinda sorta friendship with Putin, but I haven’t met anyone who had anything but unenthusiastic pragmatic arguments supporting his relationship with Erdogan, and even such people are few and far between. It’s just not a very central topic for voters, which is easy to understand, since our involvement with Azerbaijan or Armenia is fairly low level, and even our relationship with Turkey is mostly economic (though probably will include the purchase of certain weapons systems, probably some lightly wheeled personnel carriers).

    , @AltanBakshi
    @Yevardian

    And whats wrong with the Turks? Muslim Greeks and Armenians love to larp as Turks. Theres nothing wrong in being of Tatar,Tuvan, Yakut or Kyrgyz.

    Replies: @Avery, @Gerard-Mandela

  74. @Felix Keverich
    @Blinky Bill

    There are probably more Armenians in Russia, than in Armenia at this point.

    Replies: @Yevardian

    No doubt. Probably more in America as well, although out-marriage and total assimilation seems far higher there. It should be kept in mind the Armenian SSR is a rump-state comprised of the poorest and least fertile portion of the old Armenian heartland. It’s too bad the CIS didn’t develop into anything worth talking about or the USSR didn’t take the Chinese route or develop into a genuine federation, so many of these pointless wars and deaths of millions could have been avoided.

  75. @Korenchkin
    The Russo-Japanese war also gave some insights into early modern warfare

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    Or the Balkan Wars, a year and a half before the Great War.

    • Replies: @Korenchkin
    @reiner Tor

    Most of the Serbian commanders from those wars ended up leading the army in WW1
    The experience helped them win the early battles of 1914.

  76. @AltanBakshi
    @AltanBakshi

    I forgot to add that it was Soviets who gave Kars oblast and Ararat to the nascent republic of Turkey, for some reason, even though Turkey in 20s was dependent on Soviet funding and arm shipments.

    Replies: @gT

    When Turkey became a Republic in the 1920’s, it was a crypto Jew, Mustafa Kemal later named Ataturk, who was in charge. The newly formed communist Russia (lots of Jews in charge) financed Mustafa to the hilt enabling him to kick out the Greeks, deal with the Armenians etc. Jews don’t like Armenians because they are too good at business, never knew that Armenian land was even given to Turkey.

    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
    @gT


    Jews don’t like Armenians because they are too good at business
     
    Boil five Russians, get a Jew.
    Boil five Jews, get an Armenian.


    —Armenian folk saying

    Replies: @Dmitry

  77. @Yevardian
    @reiner Tor

    I noticed that. How damaged does your national psyche have to be that you want to LARP as T*rks of all people? Obviously you still haven't recovered from Mohacs. Although going from the regional great power to being bullied by Slovaks and Romanians is quite a fall, admittedly.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @AltanBakshi

    Where do I start?

    The “support” we are giving is basically Orbán’s foreign minister mentioning that Karabakh is a part of the internationally recognized territory of Azerbaijan, which is true. Even Armenia itself hasn’t yet recognized Karabakh as anything but a province of Azerbaijan.

    Second, you might have noticed that I have never been totally enthusiastic about Orbán’s government, and frequently mentioned their low ethical standards, especially corruption, but some other issues as well. I have asked you once about the axe murderer – his release to Azerbaijan was a major scandal in Hungary, and I would have thought Armenians around the world have heard of it. Anyway, this was mostly due to the Turks providing Orbán with a large loan while he was short of cash, Azerbaijan providing the state owned Hungarian oil company with concessions, and probably some money directly into Orbán’s pockets (at least that’s the standard expectation for whatever Orbán does).

    But since the release of that murderer, Orbán cannot have changed course, because the Armenians would never like or trust him after this, so his choice is basically reduced to being hated by both the Turks/Azeris and the Armenians, or the Armenians only. Obviously he consistently chooses the latter.

    Regardless of this, Orbán has advocated closing the EU borders in 2015 and not giving in to Erdogan’s blackmail, which shows the limits of Erdogan’s influence over him.

    BTW the pro-Turk policy is not very popular in Hungary, even among Orbán’s voters. I have met lots of people passionately defending his kinda sorta friendship with Putin, but I haven’t met anyone who had anything but unenthusiastic pragmatic arguments supporting his relationship with Erdogan, and even such people are few and far between. It’s just not a very central topic for voters, which is easy to understand, since our involvement with Azerbaijan or Armenia is fairly low level, and even our relationship with Turkey is mostly economic (though probably will include the purchase of certain weapons systems, probably some lightly wheeled personnel carriers).

  78. @songbird
    Seems hard to find reliable numbers, but there are supposedly more Azerbaijanis in Iran than Azerbaijan.

    Only other obvious country that I can think of like that is Mongolia, in relation to China.

    Replies: @Blinky Bill, @Kent Nationalist, @AltanBakshi, @for-the-record

    Only other obvious country that I can think of like that is Mongolia, in relation to China.

    Study: More Jews in US than Israel

    WALTHAM – According to a new study published by Brandeis University’s Steinhardt Social Research Institute, U.S. Jewry has grown 10 percent in the last seven years and now numbers 7.5 million, which is about 1 million more Jews than currently living in Israel.

    https://www.thejewishadvocate.com/articles/study-more-jews-in-us-than-israel/

    • Replies: @songbird
    @for-the-record

    Must be a really dramatic difference, if one just considers the Ashkenazim.

    Jewish demographic stats are really interesting. Only about 31-36% of Jews in Israel are Ashkenazi. Globally, one in four Jews live in a country other than their birth country. 44% of immigrants to Israel arrived after 1990.

    Replies: @for-the-record, @Fidelios Automata, @Dmitry

    , @Mr. XYZ
    @for-the-record

    Israel could claim otherwise considering that some of the US's Jews are non-halakhic--as in, patrilineal Jews.

  79. @Blinky Bill
    @songbird

    https://twitter.com/razibkhan/status/1311726770492641280?s=20

    Replies: @Felix Keverich, @AltanBakshi, @songbird

    Tajikistan is the “stan” I always forget about.

    And to think – there are almost 10 million people living there. Almost a population the size of Hungary – a country the media was going crazy over, and comparing to Nazi Germany. But they probably haven’t mentioned Tajikistan in years.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @songbird

    That’s probably because Takikistan has always been a model democracy.

  80. @songbird
    @Blinky Bill

    Tajikistan is the "stan" I always forget about.

    And to think - there are almost 10 million people living there. Almost a population the size of Hungary - a country the media was going crazy over, and comparing to Nazi Germany. But they probably haven't mentioned Tajikistan in years.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    That’s probably because Takikistan has always been a model democracy.

  81. @for-the-record
    @songbird

    Only other obvious country that I can think of like that is Mongolia, in relation to China.


    Study: More Jews in US than Israel

    WALTHAM – According to a new study published by Brandeis University’s Steinhardt Social Research Institute, U.S. Jewry has grown 10 percent in the last seven years and now numbers 7.5 million, which is about 1 million more Jews than currently living in Israel.

    https://www.thejewishadvocate.com/articles/study-more-jews-in-us-than-israel/
     

    Replies: @songbird, @Mr. XYZ

    Must be a really dramatic difference, if one just considers the Ashkenazim.

    Jewish demographic stats are really interesting. Only about 31-36% of Jews in Israel are Ashkenazi. Globally, one in four Jews live in a country other than their birth country. 44% of immigrants to Israel arrived after 1990.

    • Replies: @for-the-record
    @songbird

    Only about 31-36% of Jews in Israel are Ashkenazi.

    . . . but 100% of the Prime Ministers of Israel have been Ashkenazi.

    It seems that there are at least twice as many Ashkenazis in the US as in Israel.

    , @Fidelios Automata
    @songbird

    I wonder how many Israeli Ashkenazi intermarry with the native Middle Eastern Sephardim. A possible solution for the genetic diseases caused by the limited Euro-Jewish gene pool.

    Replies: @AaronB

    , @Dmitry
    @songbird

    Israel population is more mixed like Brazil or America. That doesn't exclude it being tribal, but the tribal identity is based on religion, lifestyle, and clothes, not the skin colour.

    In some parts of the Israel's elite (for example, Supreme Court), or in the hermetically closed religious communities, there can be still a quite homogenous people.

    But even if you divide the normal population by specific religious/social groups, they are usually more like random mix. And that's why partly why the language and the ideologies, are so important there, compared to traditional countries.

    So if you search for is a secular Jewish school in city like Beersheba, it is highly diverse.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVx9HNfJhtI

    But even the orthodox religious nationalist sector, have the same kind of mix of brown and lighter races.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoZPV-v_W-s

    Palestinians are more homogenous racially, so in at least that one sense it could be a "real people" or authentic nationality (or less ideologically constructed), than the Jews in Israel. But even much more homogenous Palestinians' population is not exactly pure looking.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJbAq-heeqE

    -

    Israel is somewhere near the opposite end of comparison, to the pure nationalities like Armenians, where the population looks almost all from the same family as each other.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @songbird

  82. @songbird
    @for-the-record

    Must be a really dramatic difference, if one just considers the Ashkenazim.

    Jewish demographic stats are really interesting. Only about 31-36% of Jews in Israel are Ashkenazi. Globally, one in four Jews live in a country other than their birth country. 44% of immigrants to Israel arrived after 1990.

    Replies: @for-the-record, @Fidelios Automata, @Dmitry

    Only about 31-36% of Jews in Israel are Ashkenazi.

    . . . but 100% of the Prime Ministers of Israel have been Ashkenazi.

    It seems that there are at least twice as many Ashkenazis in the US as in Israel.

    • Thanks: songbird
  83. @AltanBakshi
    @songbird

    There is Laos, which has less Lao people than Thailand.

    Sad that there are so many people on this site having such infantile and not well established opinions regarding this conflict. Azeris in republic of Azerbaijan have lived separately from Iranian Azeris for almost 200 years for now. Iranian Azeris are very well integrated with the Islamic republic of Iran. Ali Khamenei himself has Azeri roots and they have not experienced the communist and kemalist propaganda like their brethren living in republic of Azerbaijan.
    Iranian Azeris are much more religious and much more connected with their cultural roots, one can say that their historical development has been more "organic."

    And I am very sad that ano4 wants that Russians descend on the level of the Ukrainian far right nationalists. Shouldnt one strive to be better than others?

    Armenians have paid the ultimate price for their collaboration with the Russia. Hamidian massacres and Armenian genocide happened because Turks saw them as Russias fifth coloumn and Armenians would not have gotten as rebellious without Russia annexing neighbouring lands like Kars Oblast and treatening local Christians in much more civilized and egalitarian manner unlike Ottomans with their dhimmis.

    And some ignorant idiots think here that Catholicism is closer to Orthodoxy than Oriental Orthodoxy/Miaphysites, because their separation happened on a later date. By that logic all Protestant sects are automatically closer to Catholic Church than Catholic Church is towards the Orthodoxy. Or gay marriage espiscopals are automatically closer to hard line calvinists. Idiots!

    Russian and Coptic Church have had theological discussions for generations and their conclusion was that there are no hard differences in theology or christology between Miaphysite and Orthodox communion. That the Miaphysites also condemn monophysite theology. But why they cant then unite, you ask? Because both churches have condemned some of others church's saints as heretics. The reasons are not well known anymore, but the tradition of both churches makes changing of their status impossible.

    Replies: @Ano4, @Europe Europa, @AltanBakshi, @songbird, @Anondude

    I guess the Lao only constitute 53.2% of the population of Laos – didn’t realize it was so low. I suppose most in Thailand must have been made vassals of Siam or been otherwise conquered, rather than been refugees from the communists, though about 10% of the pop fled after they took power.

  84. @Yevardian
    @reiner Tor

    I noticed that. How damaged does your national psyche have to be that you want to LARP as T*rks of all people? Obviously you still haven't recovered from Mohacs. Although going from the regional great power to being bullied by Slovaks and Romanians is quite a fall, admittedly.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @AltanBakshi

    And whats wrong with the Turks? Muslim Greeks and Armenians love to larp as Turks. Theres nothing wrong in being of Tatar,Tuvan, Yakut or Kyrgyz.

    • Replies: @Avery
    @AltanBakshi

    {And whats wrong with the Turks?}

    What isn't?

    Turks are nomad savages* who invaded Asia Minor and thru centuries of ethnic cleansing, massacres, and finally Genocide of Christian Armenians, Christian Greeks, and Christian Assyrians displaced the indigenous peoples of Asia Minor and now are squatting on somebody else' lands. 100s of 1,000s of Christian children were abducted by the nomad Muslim Turk savages after their parents were murdered. These children were sexually abused, forcibly Turkified. SOP for Turk nomads.

    Turks are abductors and rapists of Christian children.
    Turks are thieves: everything so-called "Turkish" was stolen from others - Armenians, Greeks, Assyrians, Persians, Arabs,.....Everything: cuisine, song, dance, culture,....
    Turks are the original ISIS: bloodthirsty murderers.

    Aren't you glad you asked


    { Muslim Greeks and Armenians love to larp as Turks. }

    There are lots of forcibly Islamized Armenians, Greeks, and Assyrians.
    They are traumatized hostages of a savage Islamofascist nomads.
    No normal civilized human being would, quote, 'love to larp as Turks'.
    It would be like Aram Khachaturian dreaming of howling like a pack of jackals.

    {Theres nothing wrong in being of Tatar,Tuvan, Yakut or Kyrgyz.}

    Who said there is?
    Show us the post, Uyguroğlu.
    _____________________________
    * Overwhelming majority.
    There lots and lots of civilized, righteous Turks, e.g. Orhan Pamuk, Taner Akçam,.....

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @Jazman, @reiner Tor, @Annatar

    , @Gerard-Mandela
    @AltanBakshi

    Turks do alot more good for Russia than our "Orthodox Brother" Greek (state) homos or any other western state has ever done

    Russians practically own parts of Turkey, many millions of us go there and experience zero problems...I have gone there many times and had great holidays. As a counterexample, Russians own large parts of Montenegro but get nothing positive in return. Our citizens in Turkey are never in danger of getting arrested and deported to the US, always very safe and enjoyable...and as a civil engineer I have extra respect for Turkey because of the many excellent construction companies they have doing very high quality structural and geotechnical projects in Turkey, in Russia, everywhere.

    I am from Kazan, and Turkey do lots of projects and investment there in culture, religion and infrastructure, and in all this time..nothing subversive about it at all, which is of course totally different to many ( not all) US -funded projects. Sure, they are abit paranoid about Gulenism , even in Kazan - but Gulenists do exist here.

    We have disagreement over Syria but they still work far more positively with us in this serious war position than Pindossi/Gayropans do in peacetime or on small business issue. It was a disgrace when they shot down our Su-25 and killed our pilot- but we still do not know exactly which state engineered that situation and was responsible, and although it is unforgivable they make big efforts to repair the situation- in same situation Baltics/Polabd/Banderastan would just continue to act like freaks.

    Erdogans team also appear to be very sane, sensible people in their public interviews.....compare them to the freaks in Poland, Baltics, GosDep, elites in Bulgaria etc. That's why I think much of their negative reputation is undeserved ( their Foreign Minister also speaks fluent Russian and gives the impression of being a good guy)

    Replies: @Gerard-Mandela, @AltanBakshi

  85. Artsakh was on my pre-COVID itinerary for this year. Guess that trip really managed to get itself canceled twice over.

    • LOL: Anatoly Karlin
  86. @AltanBakshi
    @Yevardian

    And whats wrong with the Turks? Muslim Greeks and Armenians love to larp as Turks. Theres nothing wrong in being of Tatar,Tuvan, Yakut or Kyrgyz.

    Replies: @Avery, @Gerard-Mandela

    {And whats wrong with the Turks?}

    What isn’t?

    Turks are nomad savages* who invaded Asia Minor and thru centuries of ethnic cleansing, massacres, and finally Genocide of Christian Armenians, Christian Greeks, and Christian Assyrians displaced the indigenous peoples of Asia Minor and now are squatting on somebody else’ lands. 100s of 1,000s of Christian children were abducted by the nomad Muslim Turk savages after their parents were murdered. These children were sexually abused, forcibly Turkified. SOP for Turk nomads.

    Turks are abductors and rapists of Christian children.
    Turks are thieves: everything so-called “Turkish” was stolen from others – Armenians, Greeks, Assyrians, Persians, Arabs,…..Everything: cuisine, song, dance, culture,….
    Turks are the original ISIS: bloodthirsty murderers.

    Aren’t you glad you asked

    { Muslim Greeks and Armenians love to larp as Turks. }

    There are lots of forcibly Islamized Armenians, Greeks, and Assyrians.
    They are traumatized hostages of a savage Islamofascist nomads.
    No normal civilized human being would, quote, ‘love to larp as Turks’.
    It would be like Aram Khachaturian dreaming of howling like a pack of jackals.

    {Theres nothing wrong in being of Tatar,Tuvan, Yakut or Kyrgyz.}

    Who said there is?
    Show us the post, Uyguroğlu.
    _____________________________
    * Overwhelming majority.
    There lots and lots of civilized, righteous Turks, e.g. Orhan Pamuk, Taner Akçam,…..

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @Avery

    "Turks" of Turkey are as Turk as Romanians are Roman.

    "Nomad savages" who invaded Asia Minor were already very heavily Persianised both culturally and genetically.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/27/Jenetic.jpg

    "Who said there is?
    Show us the post, Uyguroğlu."

    But they are definitely Turks.

    The Mongol Empire was ally and supporter of local Armenian and Christian populations.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    , @Jazman
    @Avery

    100% correct . They did same in Balkan created Muslims out of Christianity and 500 later we have same problems

    , @reiner Tor
    @Avery


    Islamofascist nomads
     
    Islam has nothing to do with fascism. The term was coined (as “Islamic fascism”) by a nationalist Muslim Indian, who opposed the partition of India, to refer to the perceived totalitarian tendencies of modern Islamist movements. Of course, modern Islamist movements are, by definition, modern, and thus are quite different from premodern ideologies. (Not that Islam was much better in its premodern form.) So calling nomads “Islamofascist” is an anachronism at best.

    But the main reason I dislike the term is because it’s a neocon word, used and popularized by the neocons. It adds nothing to our understanding of the situation, but it reinforces the neocon messages. (Though now it’s slowly falling out of use, it’s still way more prevalent than it was twenty years ago.)
    , @Annatar
    @Avery

    Even if we grant all your points, throughout history the stronger groups have survived and the weaker ones have perished, why attack the Turks for being successful.

    Invading other peoples land and enslaving and killing them is not a crime, that is how countries expand and grow strong, there are tens of thousands of ethnic groups that once existed in the world that do not exist today because they were not strong enough to survive.

    The strong endure and the weak perish when it comes to history.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

  87. and broadly comparable human capital.

    I thought that Armenians were, on average, a bit smarter based on their TIMSS scores, no? Plus, Armenians have a history of being a type of economic and cognitive elite in the Ottoman Empire that the Azeris don’t have anywhere to my knowledge (or do I not know something?).

    Anyway, if I was in charge of Azerbaijan, I would quite literally try to expand as much as possible right now–ideally try to finish the job of reconquering all of Nagorno-Karabakh, but if that’s not possible, then conquer as much of it as Russia would allow me to without *directly* militarily intervening itself.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    @Mr. XYZ


    conquer as much of it as Russia would allow me to without *directly* militarily intervening itself.
     
    That’s exactly what wily Aliyev is doing. He waited until the relationship between Russian government and Pashinian went to frostiness (as was inevitable, considering that Pashinian is Soros-linked scum brought to power via color revolution). Then he waited some more until the popular opinion in Russia swung to “f..k those Armenians” level. Now he studiously avoids the only two things that can trigger Russian response: an attack on Armenia proper (because of ODKB treaty) and an attack on a Russian military asset. Some here claimed that Azeris aren’t particularly smart. Maybe on average, but Aliyev is playing a smart game. I’d say that only Erdogan in his stupidity and arrogance can spoil his game. But I suspect that Aliyev would do his best to prevent that.

    Replies: @Commentator Mike

  88. @Mr. XYZ

    and broadly comparable human capital.
     
    I thought that Armenians were, on average, a bit smarter based on their TIMSS scores, no? Plus, Armenians have a history of being a type of economic and cognitive elite in the Ottoman Empire that the Azeris don't have anywhere to my knowledge (or do I not know something?).

    Anyway, if I was in charge of Azerbaijan, I would quite literally try to expand as much as possible right now--ideally try to finish the job of reconquering all of Nagorno-Karabakh, but if that's not possible, then conquer as much of it as Russia would allow me to without *directly* militarily intervening itself.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

    conquer as much of it as Russia would allow me to without *directly* militarily intervening itself.

    That’s exactly what wily Aliyev is doing. He waited until the relationship between Russian government and Pashinian went to frostiness (as was inevitable, considering that Pashinian is Soros-linked scum brought to power via color revolution). Then he waited some more until the popular opinion in Russia swung to “f..k those Armenians” level. Now he studiously avoids the only two things that can trigger Russian response: an attack on Armenia proper (because of ODKB treaty) and an attack on a Russian military asset. Some here claimed that Azeris aren’t particularly smart. Maybe on average, but Aliyev is playing a smart game. I’d say that only Erdogan in his stupidity and arrogance can spoil his game. But I suspect that Aliyev would do his best to prevent that.

    • Replies: @Commentator Mike
    @AnonFromTN

    I don't know much about that region but should Russia really bother with them? I think that those who turn towards the West will suffer sooner or later. Wasn't Gaddafi trying to cozy up to Blair and Obama and look how it ended up for Libya? And look at the state of Ukraine now. Even in Eastern Europe, all those countries joining NATO, is it really such a threat to Russia? Once someone joins NATO they just go on the target list for Russia's nukes, and those missiles won't have to travel far to reach their targets the closer they are to Russia. I don't think the US will ever risk getting obliterated for the sake of its NATO satellites and it could easily let them go down the drain. Russia is not the old USSR interested in territorial expansion and ready to send the tanks rolling in when someone turns against it. Crimea was strategically important but then most people there wanted to join Russia. Look at those Christian Georgians allowing Turkey to transport weapons and fighters through its territory against Armenia who is no threat to them and almost as much Russophobic as they are. Maybe Russia should even let go of those Muslim republics in the south and deport most Muslims back to them. Then Christian Armenia and Georgia will be surrounded by Muslims and let's see if the West will help them. They'll then go crying to Russia for help but why should it? Of course the Western media will make a big deal about Russia being weak for not getting involved in all these troubles on its borders. But if it does get involved they'll then complain about Russian expansionism. Who cares what the Western media says? I don't think Russia has to worry about external treats but from the pro-Western filth fifth columns inside the country. The only reason I can see why Russia should get involved in any conflicts and wars is to try out its weapons and tactics and to keep its soldiers in fighting form for when they may be required to defend their country.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

  89. Pashinian says that Armenia is ready for a cease fire and would accept Russian peacekeepers in Karabakh.

    Russia has officially replied that Russian peacekeepers can only be deployed if asked by both Armenian and Azeri governments.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    @Ano4


    Russia has officially replied that Russian peacekeepers can only be deployed if asked by both Armenian and Azeri governments.
     
    Which is a logical extension of Russian policy of neutrality and non-interference. Proves yet again that Aliyev’s calculations were correct. If he were just a bit more patient and waited until Armenia formally withdraws from ODKB treaty (essentially Russian obligation to protect other members), he could have leveled the whole Armenia in cooperation with Erdogan. Then the fate of Armenians would be exactly the same as of those who had the misfortune to be in Turkey in the early twentieth century or in Azerbaijan in the late twentieth century. The Empire and its vassals would raise a stink but won’t lift a finger to help. History has shown that only Russia can protect Armenia. So, Pashinian’s policy of moving the country away from its alliance with Russia shows that he is not just Soros-linked scum, but also an idiot (always assuming that he cares about Armenia, which might be a wrong assumption).

    Replies: @Mikhail, @Mikhail

  90. The evolution of drones:

    Pocket Force Of Stealthy Avenger Drones May Have Made Returning F-117s To Service Unnecessary

    Avengers have flown over Syria and the secretive nature of who owns and operates the handful that have been delivered points to a clandestine program.

    BY JOSEPH TREVITHICK AND TYLER ROGOWAYMARCH 5, 2019

    https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/26791/pocket-force-of-stealthy-avenger-drones-may-have-made-returning-f-117s-to-service-unnecessary

    • Replies: @The Wild Geese Howard
    @David Davenport

    Thank you for the article.

    To me, the most interesting part was how tightly the Air Force restricted pilot qualifications on the Avenger drone type.

    I thought it was a very interesting contrast between the AF process and how loose Boeing and the FAA were with 737 Max type qualification.

    I can only take this distinction as evidence of what the people in charge consider truly important.

  91. I think Russia and Putin is just waiting for Armenian govt to cave and ask for help.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    @Astuteobservor II


    I think Russia and Putin is just waiting for Armenian govt to cave and ask for help.
     
    I strongly suspect that current Armenian government won’t get any help from Russia. Besides, Armenians (technically Karabakh forces) just struck Azeri city of Gyandzha (also spelled as Ganja), giving Putin an extra excuse not to interfere: ODKB treaty contains an obligation to protect attacked member, but no obligation to support member’s aggression against anyone. My bet is that Armenia has a chance to get Russian help only after its people change the government and kick out all Soros-linked scum. It may be too late already.

    Replies: @Astuteobservor II

  92. My earlier comments on Russia being in a great diplomatic position are substantiated:

    https://www.rt.com/russia/502455-azerbaijan-moscow-karabakh-mediator/

  93. @songbird
    @for-the-record

    Must be a really dramatic difference, if one just considers the Ashkenazim.

    Jewish demographic stats are really interesting. Only about 31-36% of Jews in Israel are Ashkenazi. Globally, one in four Jews live in a country other than their birth country. 44% of immigrants to Israel arrived after 1990.

    Replies: @for-the-record, @Fidelios Automata, @Dmitry

    I wonder how many Israeli Ashkenazi intermarry with the native Middle Eastern Sephardim. A possible solution for the genetic diseases caused by the limited Euro-Jewish gene pool.

    • Agree: songbird
    • Replies: @AaronB
    @Fidelios Automata

    Its extremely common.

  94. If Armenia will lose a huge part/most/all of Nagorno-Karabakh, might Armenia subsequently withdraw from the Eurasian Economic Union? After all, wasn’t a huge part of Armenia’s decision to join and subsequently remain in the Eurasian Economic Union the implicit Russian guarantees to protect the existing status quo in Nagorno-Karabakh?

  95. @for-the-record
    @songbird

    Only other obvious country that I can think of like that is Mongolia, in relation to China.


    Study: More Jews in US than Israel

    WALTHAM – According to a new study published by Brandeis University’s Steinhardt Social Research Institute, U.S. Jewry has grown 10 percent in the last seven years and now numbers 7.5 million, which is about 1 million more Jews than currently living in Israel.

    https://www.thejewishadvocate.com/articles/study-more-jews-in-us-than-israel/
     

    Replies: @songbird, @Mr. XYZ

    Israel could claim otherwise considering that some of the US’s Jews are non-halakhic–as in, patrilineal Jews.

  96. @reiner Tor
    I actually think that the Azeris are doomed. Hungary seems to be supporting them. Hungary has lost all its wars for centuries. The Central Powers were finished. The Axis, too. The Warsaw Pact is no longer. NATO is going to be next, probably. The Azeris are going to lose.

    Replies: @Yevardian, @Mr. XYZ

    You see NATO eventually disappearing? Sometime soon?

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @Mr. XYZ

    I don’t know, but Hungarians have joked about it since we joined NATO.

  97. There’s something symptomatic, that one of the most jingoistic pro-Azerbaijan military soundin websites is the Russian government funded one in Azerbaijan. i.e. https://az.sputniknews.ru/karabakh/20201004/425104022/Po-protivniku-nanesen-sokrushitelnyy-udar—itogi-sedmogo-dnya-kontrnastupleniya.html

    British government media, like BBC World Service, tries to maintain the similar editorial positions across its different country version. Whereas Russian government equivalents matches the editorial position to every continent at least, and I guess sometimes expending money for the different editor for each individual country.

  98. @Avery
    @AltanBakshi

    {And whats wrong with the Turks?}

    What isn't?

    Turks are nomad savages* who invaded Asia Minor and thru centuries of ethnic cleansing, massacres, and finally Genocide of Christian Armenians, Christian Greeks, and Christian Assyrians displaced the indigenous peoples of Asia Minor and now are squatting on somebody else' lands. 100s of 1,000s of Christian children were abducted by the nomad Muslim Turk savages after their parents were murdered. These children were sexually abused, forcibly Turkified. SOP for Turk nomads.

    Turks are abductors and rapists of Christian children.
    Turks are thieves: everything so-called "Turkish" was stolen from others - Armenians, Greeks, Assyrians, Persians, Arabs,.....Everything: cuisine, song, dance, culture,....
    Turks are the original ISIS: bloodthirsty murderers.

    Aren't you glad you asked


    { Muslim Greeks and Armenians love to larp as Turks. }

    There are lots of forcibly Islamized Armenians, Greeks, and Assyrians.
    They are traumatized hostages of a savage Islamofascist nomads.
    No normal civilized human being would, quote, 'love to larp as Turks'.
    It would be like Aram Khachaturian dreaming of howling like a pack of jackals.

    {Theres nothing wrong in being of Tatar,Tuvan, Yakut or Kyrgyz.}

    Who said there is?
    Show us the post, Uyguroğlu.
    _____________________________
    * Overwhelming majority.
    There lots and lots of civilized, righteous Turks, e.g. Orhan Pamuk, Taner Akçam,.....

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @Jazman, @reiner Tor, @Annatar

    “Turks” of Turkey are as Turk as Romanians are Roman.

    “Nomad savages” who invaded Asia Minor were already very heavily Persianised both culturally and genetically.

    “Who said there is?
    Show us the post, Uyguroğlu.”

    But they are definitely Turks.

    The Mongol Empire was ally and supporter of local Armenian and Christian populations.

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @AltanBakshi

    Actually Vlachs are more Roman or Romanian, which is the name used by the Romans btw, than Anatolian Osmans are Turks, for at least they share the faith of the Romans and are genetically closer to Roman people than Anatolian larpers are to the original Turks, who in all likelihood were direct ancestors of Tuvans and Turkic peoples of Altai republic.

    Actually the Ottomans didnt call each other Turk, at least before the end of the 19th Century and the rise of the nationalist movements in the empire.

    Many Nigerians and Pakistanis speak English, are they Germanic?

    Of course Anatolians are linguistically Turkic, but are they culturally and genetically, or one can say that there is no Turkic genetics or blood, but then one cant speak of Slavic or Germanic blood too. Which in my opinion is one extreme.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

  99. @songbird
    @for-the-record

    Must be a really dramatic difference, if one just considers the Ashkenazim.

    Jewish demographic stats are really interesting. Only about 31-36% of Jews in Israel are Ashkenazi. Globally, one in four Jews live in a country other than their birth country. 44% of immigrants to Israel arrived after 1990.

    Replies: @for-the-record, @Fidelios Automata, @Dmitry

    Israel population is more mixed like Brazil or America. That doesn’t exclude it being tribal, but the tribal identity is based on religion, lifestyle, and clothes, not the skin colour.

    In some parts of the Israel’s elite (for example, Supreme Court), or in the hermetically closed religious communities, there can be still a quite homogenous people.

    But even if you divide the normal population by specific religious/social groups, they are usually more like random mix. And that’s why partly why the language and the ideologies, are so important there, compared to traditional countries.

    So if you search for is a secular Jewish school in city like Beersheba, it is highly diverse.

    But even the orthodox religious nationalist sector, have the same kind of mix of brown and lighter races.

    Palestinians are more homogenous racially, so in at least that one sense it could be a “real people” or authentic nationality (or less ideologically constructed), than the Jews in Israel. But even much more homogenous Palestinians’ population is not exactly pure looking.

    Israel is somewhere near the opposite end of comparison, to the pure nationalities like Armenians, where the population looks almost all from the same family as each other.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Dmitry


    Palestinians are more homogenous racially, so in at least that one sense it could be a “real people” or authentic nationality (or less ideologically constructed), than the Jews in Israel. But even much more homogenous Palestinians’ population is not exactly pure looking.
     
    Palestinians usually appear as an externally more homogenous nationality. But still look a bit mixed race.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6TMLfuFQ6s
    , @songbird
    @Dmitry

    All these countries with a draft must be a treasure trove of HBD statistics. I should like to see numbers for the different groups of Jews, but I suppose, in most cases, the data is not very accessible to researchers.

    I heard Denmark locked down on their testing data, after embarrassing things were revealed about the immigrant pop.

  100. @Dmitry
    @songbird

    Israel population is more mixed like Brazil or America. That doesn't exclude it being tribal, but the tribal identity is based on religion, lifestyle, and clothes, not the skin colour.

    In some parts of the Israel's elite (for example, Supreme Court), or in the hermetically closed religious communities, there can be still a quite homogenous people.

    But even if you divide the normal population by specific religious/social groups, they are usually more like random mix. And that's why partly why the language and the ideologies, are so important there, compared to traditional countries.

    So if you search for is a secular Jewish school in city like Beersheba, it is highly diverse.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVx9HNfJhtI

    But even the orthodox religious nationalist sector, have the same kind of mix of brown and lighter races.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoZPV-v_W-s

    Palestinians are more homogenous racially, so in at least that one sense it could be a "real people" or authentic nationality (or less ideologically constructed), than the Jews in Israel. But even much more homogenous Palestinians' population is not exactly pure looking.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJbAq-heeqE

    -

    Israel is somewhere near the opposite end of comparison, to the pure nationalities like Armenians, where the population looks almost all from the same family as each other.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @songbird

    Palestinians are more homogenous racially, so in at least that one sense it could be a “real people” or authentic nationality (or less ideologically constructed), than the Jews in Israel. But even much more homogenous Palestinians’ population is not exactly pure looking.

    Palestinians usually appear as an externally more homogenous nationality. But still look a bit mixed race.

  101. @AltanBakshi
    @Avery

    "Turks" of Turkey are as Turk as Romanians are Roman.

    "Nomad savages" who invaded Asia Minor were already very heavily Persianised both culturally and genetically.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/27/Jenetic.jpg

    "Who said there is?
    Show us the post, Uyguroğlu."

    But they are definitely Turks.

    The Mongol Empire was ally and supporter of local Armenian and Christian populations.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    Actually Vlachs are more Roman or Romanian, which is the name used by the Romans btw, than Anatolian Osmans are Turks, for at least they share the faith of the Romans and are genetically closer to Roman people than Anatolian larpers are to the original Turks, who in all likelihood were direct ancestors of Tuvans and Turkic peoples of Altai republic.

    Actually the Ottomans didnt call each other Turk, at least before the end of the 19th Century and the rise of the nationalist movements in the empire.

    Many Nigerians and Pakistanis speak English, are they Germanic?

    Of course Anatolians are linguistically Turkic, but are they culturally and genetically, or one can say that there is no Turkic genetics or blood, but then one cant speak of Slavic or Germanic blood too. Which in my opinion is one extreme.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @AltanBakshi

    I think Turks would be okay if they weren’t Muslims. They are also genocidal, at least totally unapologetic about their genocide of Christians, including Armenians, but also Greeks and others.

    I still wish them well, but I don’t think they should get to exterminate or ethnically cleanse a further chunk of the Armenian land, after what they did to the rest of Armenia a century ago.

    Replies: @Verymuchalive

  102. @Avery
    @AltanBakshi

    {And whats wrong with the Turks?}

    What isn't?

    Turks are nomad savages* who invaded Asia Minor and thru centuries of ethnic cleansing, massacres, and finally Genocide of Christian Armenians, Christian Greeks, and Christian Assyrians displaced the indigenous peoples of Asia Minor and now are squatting on somebody else' lands. 100s of 1,000s of Christian children were abducted by the nomad Muslim Turk savages after their parents were murdered. These children were sexually abused, forcibly Turkified. SOP for Turk nomads.

    Turks are abductors and rapists of Christian children.
    Turks are thieves: everything so-called "Turkish" was stolen from others - Armenians, Greeks, Assyrians, Persians, Arabs,.....Everything: cuisine, song, dance, culture,....
    Turks are the original ISIS: bloodthirsty murderers.

    Aren't you glad you asked


    { Muslim Greeks and Armenians love to larp as Turks. }

    There are lots of forcibly Islamized Armenians, Greeks, and Assyrians.
    They are traumatized hostages of a savage Islamofascist nomads.
    No normal civilized human being would, quote, 'love to larp as Turks'.
    It would be like Aram Khachaturian dreaming of howling like a pack of jackals.

    {Theres nothing wrong in being of Tatar,Tuvan, Yakut or Kyrgyz.}

    Who said there is?
    Show us the post, Uyguroğlu.
    _____________________________
    * Overwhelming majority.
    There lots and lots of civilized, righteous Turks, e.g. Orhan Pamuk, Taner Akçam,.....

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @Jazman, @reiner Tor, @Annatar

    100% correct . They did same in Balkan created Muslims out of Christianity and 500 later we have same problems

  103. @Avery
    @AltanBakshi

    {And whats wrong with the Turks?}

    What isn't?

    Turks are nomad savages* who invaded Asia Minor and thru centuries of ethnic cleansing, massacres, and finally Genocide of Christian Armenians, Christian Greeks, and Christian Assyrians displaced the indigenous peoples of Asia Minor and now are squatting on somebody else' lands. 100s of 1,000s of Christian children were abducted by the nomad Muslim Turk savages after their parents were murdered. These children were sexually abused, forcibly Turkified. SOP for Turk nomads.

    Turks are abductors and rapists of Christian children.
    Turks are thieves: everything so-called "Turkish" was stolen from others - Armenians, Greeks, Assyrians, Persians, Arabs,.....Everything: cuisine, song, dance, culture,....
    Turks are the original ISIS: bloodthirsty murderers.

    Aren't you glad you asked


    { Muslim Greeks and Armenians love to larp as Turks. }

    There are lots of forcibly Islamized Armenians, Greeks, and Assyrians.
    They are traumatized hostages of a savage Islamofascist nomads.
    No normal civilized human being would, quote, 'love to larp as Turks'.
    It would be like Aram Khachaturian dreaming of howling like a pack of jackals.

    {Theres nothing wrong in being of Tatar,Tuvan, Yakut or Kyrgyz.}

    Who said there is?
    Show us the post, Uyguroğlu.
    _____________________________
    * Overwhelming majority.
    There lots and lots of civilized, righteous Turks, e.g. Orhan Pamuk, Taner Akçam,.....

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @Jazman, @reiner Tor, @Annatar

    Islamofascist nomads

    Islam has nothing to do with fascism. The term was coined (as “Islamic fascism”) by a nationalist Muslim Indian, who opposed the partition of India, to refer to the perceived totalitarian tendencies of modern Islamist movements. Of course, modern Islamist movements are, by definition, modern, and thus are quite different from premodern ideologies. (Not that Islam was much better in its premodern form.) So calling nomads “Islamofascist” is an anachronism at best.

    But the main reason I dislike the term is because it’s a neocon word, used and popularized by the neocons. It adds nothing to our understanding of the situation, but it reinforces the neocon messages. (Though now it’s slowly falling out of use, it’s still way more prevalent than it was twenty years ago.)

  104. @AltanBakshi
    @AltanBakshi

    Actually Vlachs are more Roman or Romanian, which is the name used by the Romans btw, than Anatolian Osmans are Turks, for at least they share the faith of the Romans and are genetically closer to Roman people than Anatolian larpers are to the original Turks, who in all likelihood were direct ancestors of Tuvans and Turkic peoples of Altai republic.

    Actually the Ottomans didnt call each other Turk, at least before the end of the 19th Century and the rise of the nationalist movements in the empire.

    Many Nigerians and Pakistanis speak English, are they Germanic?

    Of course Anatolians are linguistically Turkic, but are they culturally and genetically, or one can say that there is no Turkic genetics or blood, but then one cant speak of Slavic or Germanic blood too. Which in my opinion is one extreme.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    I think Turks would be okay if they weren’t Muslims. They are also genocidal, at least totally unapologetic about their genocide of Christians, including Armenians, but also Greeks and others.

    I still wish them well, but I don’t think they should get to exterminate or ethnically cleanse a further chunk of the Armenian land, after what they did to the rest of Armenia a century ago.

    • Agree: iffen
    • Replies: @Verymuchalive
    @reiner Tor

    The Turks are the result of miscegenation. Fairly small numbers of Turks came into Anatolia after Manzikert ( 1071 ). They mixed, often forcibly, with the Greek and Armenian-speaking inhabitants and very largely imposed Islam on them. These Greeks and Armenian speakers were themselves the descendants of prior civilisations going back to the Hittites and earlier.
    Islam is a tabula rasa religion, unlike Christianity or Buddhism. It seeks to erase all of the past previous to its imposition. Given that Turks are the result of the miscegenation with infidels, the infidels must be erased. That was Ottoman policy - to culturally erase, physically if necessary, these infidels.
    The retention of Hagia Sophia as a Mosque was a gross mistake from that point of view - it should have been destroyed in 1453.
    No, I don't wish the Turks well.

    Replies: @Ano4

  105. Anatolian fake Turks have an identity crisis and genocidal tendencies arise from their insecurities. Its very important that nations have holistic and organic view of their past. I hope that Russians will not start to deny their Soviet past as much as Anatolians deny their Greek amd Persian past.

    It is considered particularly ironic that Atatürk himself, in his lengthy speech to the new Parliament in 1927, used a style of Ottoman which sounded so alien to later listeners that it had to be “translated” three times into modern Turkish: first in 1963, again in 1986, and most recently in 1995.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_language

    Imagine the dissonance and identity crisis if the Russians would “clean” their language from all the Greek loans and switch to the Latin alphabet?
    But maybe such drastic changes are the Anatolian tradition? Once they were loyal and integral part of the Roman and the Hellenic world, then they wuz the caliphate and now they wuz the Attila!

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @AltanBakshi

    https://i.hurimg.com/i/hdn/75/0x0/59c88ae045d2a027e83c6a5a
    Erdogan with Abbas and soldiers of 16 great Turkic empires.

    Identity crisis much? Unparallable larping levels at least. Erdogan by the way has Laz roots, who are Islamized Georgians.

    By the way 16 great Turkic empires as predessors of the republic of Turkey is an official ideology there and is propagated by the state.

    It seems to me that Kemal thought that the Osmans and their empire were totally rotten and degenerate, why else he would overwrite all their magnificent history?

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    , @Ano4
    @AltanBakshi

    To cleanse modern Turkish language from the Arabic and Persian loanwords, Ataturk and his nationalists sent linguists to the Gagauz Christian Turks of Valakhia. The Gagauz fought against the Ottoman Turks during the conquest of the Byzantine realm by the latter. They are staunchly pro-Russian today.

  106. @reiner Tor
    @Korenchkin

    Or the Balkan Wars, a year and a half before the Great War.

    Replies: @Korenchkin

    Most of the Serbian commanders from those wars ended up leading the army in WW1
    The experience helped them win the early battles of 1914.

  107. @AltanBakshi
    Anatolian fake Turks have an identity crisis and genocidal tendencies arise from their insecurities. Its very important that nations have holistic and organic view of their past. I hope that Russians will not start to deny their Soviet past as much as Anatolians deny their Greek amd Persian past.


    It is considered particularly ironic that Atatürk himself, in his lengthy speech to the new Parliament in 1927, used a style of Ottoman which sounded so alien to later listeners that it had to be "translated" three times into modern Turkish: first in 1963, again in 1986, and most recently in 1995.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_language
     
    Imagine the dissonance and identity crisis if the Russians would "clean" their language from all the Greek loans and switch to the Latin alphabet?
    But maybe such drastic changes are the Anatolian tradition? Once they were loyal and integral part of the Roman and the Hellenic world, then they wuz the caliphate and now they wuz the Attila!

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @Ano4

    https://i.hurimg.com/i/hdn/75/0x0/59c88ae045d2a027e83c6a5a
    Erdogan with Abbas and soldiers of 16 great Turkic empires.

    Identity crisis much? Unparallable larping levels at least. Erdogan by the way has Laz roots, who are Islamized Georgians.

    By the way 16 great Turkic empires as predessors of the republic of Turkey is an official ideology there and is propagated by the state.

    It seems to me that Kemal thought that the Osmans and their empire were totally rotten and degenerate, why else he would overwrite all their magnificent history?

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @AltanBakshi

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/16_Great_Turkic_Empires

  108. Although its popular to bash the Ottomans they still deserve some respect, after all they could almost simultaneously wage war against the Spanish, Venetians, Habsburgs, Poles, Russians and the Persians. They were truly the greatest power of the Early modern period.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @AltanBakshi

    Certainly one of the greatest. I would be proud of it, if I were Turkish. But it was actually destroying a superior culture. Arguably even the Balkan states were superior to the vilayets of the Ottoman Empire which replaced them, not to mention the Byzantine Empire.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

  109. @AltanBakshi
    Although its popular to bash the Ottomans they still deserve some respect, after all they could almost simultaneously wage war against the Spanish, Venetians, Habsburgs, Poles, Russians and the Persians. They were truly the greatest power of the Early modern period.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    Certainly one of the greatest. I would be proud of it, if I were Turkish. But it was actually destroying a superior culture. Arguably even the Balkan states were superior to the vilayets of the Ottoman Empire which replaced them, not to mention the Byzantine Empire.

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @reiner Tor

    Theres nothing superior in an decaying empire which is more preoccupied with civil wars than fighting against external foes. Yes Roman Empire of the Basil the Bulgarslayer was still great and glorious civilization, but not 14th and 15th Century Byzantines. Everything that grows, will one day decay and wither. Be it men, cultures or countries. Ottoman culture of the 15th Century was adaptive, swift, industrious and agile.

  110. @Mr. XYZ
    @reiner Tor

    You see NATO eventually disappearing? Sometime soon?

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    I don’t know, but Hungarians have joked about it since we joined NATO.

  111. @AnonFromTN
    @Mr. XYZ


    conquer as much of it as Russia would allow me to without *directly* militarily intervening itself.
     
    That’s exactly what wily Aliyev is doing. He waited until the relationship between Russian government and Pashinian went to frostiness (as was inevitable, considering that Pashinian is Soros-linked scum brought to power via color revolution). Then he waited some more until the popular opinion in Russia swung to “f..k those Armenians” level. Now he studiously avoids the only two things that can trigger Russian response: an attack on Armenia proper (because of ODKB treaty) and an attack on a Russian military asset. Some here claimed that Azeris aren’t particularly smart. Maybe on average, but Aliyev is playing a smart game. I’d say that only Erdogan in his stupidity and arrogance can spoil his game. But I suspect that Aliyev would do his best to prevent that.

    Replies: @Commentator Mike

    I don’t know much about that region but should Russia really bother with them? I think that those who turn towards the West will suffer sooner or later. Wasn’t Gaddafi trying to cozy up to Blair and Obama and look how it ended up for Libya? And look at the state of Ukraine now. Even in Eastern Europe, all those countries joining NATO, is it really such a threat to Russia? Once someone joins NATO they just go on the target list for Russia’s nukes, and those missiles won’t have to travel far to reach their targets the closer they are to Russia. I don’t think the US will ever risk getting obliterated for the sake of its NATO satellites and it could easily let them go down the drain. Russia is not the old USSR interested in territorial expansion and ready to send the tanks rolling in when someone turns against it. Crimea was strategically important but then most people there wanted to join Russia. Look at those Christian Georgians allowing Turkey to transport weapons and fighters through its territory against Armenia who is no threat to them and almost as much Russophobic as they are. Maybe Russia should even let go of those Muslim republics in the south and deport most Muslims back to them. Then Christian Armenia and Georgia will be surrounded by Muslims and let’s see if the West will help them. They’ll then go crying to Russia for help but why should it? Of course the Western media will make a big deal about Russia being weak for not getting involved in all these troubles on its borders. But if it does get involved they’ll then complain about Russian expansionism. Who cares what the Western media says? I don’t think Russia has to worry about external treats but from the pro-Western filth fifth columns inside the country. The only reason I can see why Russia should get involved in any conflicts and wars is to try out its weapons and tactics and to keep its soldiers in fighting form for when they may be required to defend their country.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    @Commentator Mike


    The only reason I can see why Russia should get involved in any conflicts and wars is to try out its weapons and tactics and to keep its soldiers in fighting form for when they may be required to defend their country.
     
    You are very rational. So am I, so I agree. This appears to be a big chunk of Putin’s thinking, too. But politics cannot be 100% rational: you have to engage your subjects emotionally. Putin certainly wants to punish Armenians for placing Pashinian and others of his ilk into power. The only reason I see for him to protect Armenia proper is to show wannabe sultan his limits. Other than that, Armenia is not important enough geopolitically to even be the first item on his daily briefing. There is ~95% chance that Karabakh is a goner. Unless that stimulates Armenians to kick out Pahinian and his gang and replace them with more rational people who actually care about Armenia, Armenia would be a goner, too.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

  112. @reiner Tor
    @AltanBakshi

    Certainly one of the greatest. I would be proud of it, if I were Turkish. But it was actually destroying a superior culture. Arguably even the Balkan states were superior to the vilayets of the Ottoman Empire which replaced them, not to mention the Byzantine Empire.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    Theres nothing superior in an decaying empire which is more preoccupied with civil wars than fighting against external foes. Yes Roman Empire of the Basil the Bulgarslayer was still great and glorious civilization, but not 14th and 15th Century Byzantines. Everything that grows, will one day decay and wither. Be it men, cultures or countries. Ottoman culture of the 15th Century was adaptive, swift, industrious and agile.

  113. @AltanBakshi
    Anatolian fake Turks have an identity crisis and genocidal tendencies arise from their insecurities. Its very important that nations have holistic and organic view of their past. I hope that Russians will not start to deny their Soviet past as much as Anatolians deny their Greek amd Persian past.


    It is considered particularly ironic that Atatürk himself, in his lengthy speech to the new Parliament in 1927, used a style of Ottoman which sounded so alien to later listeners that it had to be "translated" three times into modern Turkish: first in 1963, again in 1986, and most recently in 1995.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_language
     
    Imagine the dissonance and identity crisis if the Russians would "clean" their language from all the Greek loans and switch to the Latin alphabet?
    But maybe such drastic changes are the Anatolian tradition? Once they were loyal and integral part of the Roman and the Hellenic world, then they wuz the caliphate and now they wuz the Attila!

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @Ano4

    To cleanse modern Turkish language from the Arabic and Persian loanwords, Ataturk and his nationalists sent linguists to the Gagauz Christian Turks of Valakhia. The Gagauz fought against the Ottoman Turks during the conquest of the Byzantine realm by the latter. They are staunchly pro-Russian today.

  114. @Fidelios Automata
    @songbird

    I wonder how many Israeli Ashkenazi intermarry with the native Middle Eastern Sephardim. A possible solution for the genetic diseases caused by the limited Euro-Jewish gene pool.

    Replies: @AaronB

    Its extremely common.

  115. Armenians have just upended the stakes by shelling Gyandzha, the second largest Azeri city. From the Karabakh territory, Armenians launched a massive Smerch attack tonight targeting Gyandzha air base which houses the Turkish F-16. The civilian neighborhoods have also been hit.

    Karabakh Armenian leadership announced that the attacks are a retaliation for the bombing of Stepanakert and that hundreds of thousands of other targets in Azerbaijan proper will be attacked if Azeris keep bombing Karabakh cities.

    Azeri leadership has announced that after this attack, the territory of Armenia proper becomes a legitimate target for their retaliatory strikes.

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EjeKrc3WoAAlFzW?format=jpg&

    Street after the shelling in Gyandzha.

    • Thanks: Blinky Bill, AltanBakshi
  116. Creators of modern Iran have all come from the Turko-Persian circles of Azerbaijan. Tabriz and surrounding regions were the orignal seat of the Safavids and although I am not completely sure I think that Qajars also were from there. Therefore many Iranian Azerbaijanis think and believe that they are as integral part of the Iran as the Persians are. At least they are the actual builders of the Persian empire during the era of islam and gathererers of the Iranian lands. They made Iran Shia, they beat the Ottoman incursions etc. Republic of Azerbaijan is once again one of these strange and young fake countries, lackimg understanding or knowledge of themselves and their history, very few them are really Shia, or have genuine understanding of Shia tradition. But although there would be problems it would be better to return majority of it to Iran, Russia could take adjacent Dagestani lands, which are populated by Dargins and Tats, and Armenia could take its own. My personal experiences of Armenians have been mostly positive and I think that they are cultured people. I am appaled by some Russian commentators on the social media and their attitudes towards the Armenian people. Armenoans didnt just get massacred as a Russian fifth column in ww1 but like I already mentioned lost the Kars oblast because of the Soviets and not just that, Soviets for some reason gave Karabakh to Azerbaijan, even though the region between Artsakh and Azerbaijan proper was in those times mostly populated by Kurds, not Azerbaijanis, and Nakhichevan with large Armenian minority was also given to Azerbaijan and not made autonomous part of Armenia like Karabakh was made part of Azerbaija. Strange double standards. Then there is ano4 who reminds people of Armenian legion of SS. Hey ano4 what about all the Russians, Kalmyks, Cossacks in the SS? If I would start to despise people based on couple bad experiences I would start to hate the majority of Human race. I was once beaten in 2003 by a Russian gopnik, should I now hate Russians? Okay I had a big mouth but i was much younger and weaker than the other guy…

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @AltanBakshi


    Qajars also were from there.
     
    Qajars were Muslims from Georgia.

    Other than that you are correct about the Alevi Shia Qizilbash Turks building up the Persian Safavid Empire.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qizilbash


    I already mentioned lost the Kars oblast because of the Soviets and not just that, Soviets for some reason gave Karabakh to Azerbaijan
     
    Well as Stalin noted, there were ethnic cleansings on both sides.


    «Армения, измученная и многострадальная, отданная милостью Антанты и дашнаков на голод, разорение и беженство, – эта обманутая всеми “друзьями” Армения ныне обрела свое избавление в том, что объявила себя советской страной.
    Ни лживые заверения Англии, “вековой защитницы” армянских интересов; ни пресловутые четырнадцать пунктов Вильсона; ни широковещательные обещания Лиги наций с ее “мандатом” на управление Арменией – не смогли (и не могли!) спасти Армению от резни и физического истребления. Только идея Советской власти принесла Армении мир и возможность национального обновления.
    Вот некоторые факты, приведшие к советизации Армении. Губительная политика дашнаков, агентов Антанты, приводит страну к анархии и нищете. Война с Турцией, затеянная дашнаками, доводит тяжелое положение Армении до последней крайности. Измученные голодом и бесправием северные провинции Армении восстают в конце ноября и создают революционный военный комитет Армении во главе с тов. Касьяном. 30 ноября получается от предревкома Армении на имя тов. Ленина приветственная телеграмма с сообщением о рождении Советской Армении и занятии ревкомом города Делижана. 1 декабря Советский Азербайджан добровольно отказывается от спорных провинций и декларирует передачу Советской Армении Зангезура, Нахичевани, Нагорного Карабаха. 1 декабря ревком получает приветствие от турецкого командования. 2 декабря получается сообщение тов. Орджоникидзе о том, что дашнакское правительство в Эривани изгнано и войска Армении отдают себя в распоряжение ревкома.
    Ныне столица Армении, Эривань, в руках Советской власти Армении.
    ВЕКОВАЯ ВРАЖДА МЕЖДУ АРМЕНИЕЙ И ОКРУЖАЮЩИМИ ЕЕ МУСУЛЬМАНАМИ РЕШИЛАСЬ ОДНИМ УДАРОМ, ПУТЕМ УСТАНОВЛЕНИЯ БРАТСКОЙ СОЛИДАРНОСТИ МЕЖДУ ТРУДЯЩИМИСЯ АРМЕНИИ, ТУРЦИИ, АЗЕРБАЙДЖАНА.
    Пусть знают все, кому ведать надлежит, что так называемую армянскую “проблему”, над которой тщетно ломали голову старые волки империалистической дипломатии, оказалась в силах разрешить только Советская власть».

    * * *

    «Фактор, тормозящий объединение республик в один союз, – это национализм в отдельных республиках… нэп и связанный с ним частный капитал питают, взращивают национализм грузинский, азербайджанский, узбекский и пр… Если бы этот национализм был только оборонительный, можно было бы еще не поднимать из-за него шума… Азербайджан. Основная национальность – азербайджанская, но там есть и армяне. Среди одной части азербайджанцев тоже имеется такая тенденция, иногда очень неприкрытая, насчет того, что мы, дескать, азербайджанцы, – коренные, а они, армяне, – пришельцы, нельзя ли их по этому случаю немного отодвинуть назад, не считаться с их интересами. Это – тоже шовинизм. Это подрывает то равенство национальностей, на основе которого строится Советская власть… Закавказье с ранних времен представляло арену резни и склоки, а потом, при меньшевизме и дашнаках, – арену войн. Вы знаете грузино-армянскую войну. Резня в начале и в конце 1905 года в Азербайджане вам тоже известна. Я могу назвать целый ряд районов, где большинство армян всю остальную часть населения, состоящую из татар, вырезали, – например, Зангезур. Могу указать на другую провинцию – Нахичевань. Там татары преобладали, и они вырезали всех армян. Это было как раз перед освобождением Армении и Грузии от ига империализма. (Голос с места: “По-своему разрешили национальный вопрос”.) Это тоже, конечно, известная форма разрешения национального вопроса. Но это – не советская форма разрешения. В этой обстановке взаимной национальной вражды русские рабочие, конечно, не при чем, ибо борются татары и армяне, без русских. Вот почему необходим в Закавказье специальный орган, который мог бы регулировать взаимоотношения между национальностями».

    И.В. СТАЛИН


    I guess the Soviets had to draw a demarcation line somewhere. But then, I'm not a fan of Soviet boundaries either, Kazakhstan, Crimea, Donbass, Estonia. There are so many boundaries that they demarcated according to some ideological twisted logic that it is too long to name them all.

    Then there is ano4 who reminds people of Armenian legion of SS. Hey ano4 what about all the Russians, Kalmyks, Cossacks in the SS?
     
    I once met one guy descending from one these Krasnow's Cossacks He told me how his grandfather kept his Wafflen SS trenchcoat as a souvenir and how much he hated both Soviets and Jews. We had a couple of drinks, he was a very nice guy.

    I was once beaten in 2003 by a Russian gopnik, should I now hate Russians? Okay I had a big mouth but i was much younger and weaker than the other guy…
     
    Happens to the best of us. That's what the gopnik were created for: to beat up decent people. As the Russian saying goes: "за одного битого двух не битых дают". That's what I used to hear when I come home complaining that I was roughed up by some bully when I was young.

    😁

    Now about Armenians and Azeris. I dislike them equally. But I don't hate them. In the present situation though my opinion is best summarized by the following meme:

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EjMaXsgWAAcwJFf?format=jpg&

    Armenoids get too much sympathy. They are far from being saints, I try to set the record straight.

    😁

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

  117. @AltanBakshi
    @AltanBakshi

    https://i.hurimg.com/i/hdn/75/0x0/59c88ae045d2a027e83c6a5a
    Erdogan with Abbas and soldiers of 16 great Turkic empires.

    Identity crisis much? Unparallable larping levels at least. Erdogan by the way has Laz roots, who are Islamized Georgians.

    By the way 16 great Turkic empires as predessors of the republic of Turkey is an official ideology there and is propagated by the state.

    It seems to me that Kemal thought that the Osmans and their empire were totally rotten and degenerate, why else he would overwrite all their magnificent history?

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    • LOL: Ano4
  118. Apparently the Azeris are winning. I agree that the Sorosite prime minister is bad, but I like the idea of a Turkish victory even less. (Not to mention Azerbaijan, which based on this Hajibala Abutalybov seems to be a nation of Borats.)

    • Replies: @AP
    @reiner Tor

    Turkey has been a bad influence upon the world and has done much evil, but Azerbaijan is okay. Azeris are Shiites rather than Sunnis and have maintained some pre-Islamic Persian traditions such as the old New Years' celebrations. They even maintained their ancient fire temple, after losing their own Zoroastrian faith, allowing it to be a site of pilgrimage for visitors from India for many centuries. Compare this to what was done to the Hagia Sophia by the Turks.

    Azeris were an integral part of the Persian world; this, and their later incorporation into the Russian world have been very good influences upon them. They are probably among the best of the Muslim or Turkic peoples. This pan-Turkism is clever for Azeris to exploit, and they may even believe it themselves, but they are better than most of the Turks. When this war settles down I encourage you to visit Baku, it's a very nice place with hospitable people (as long as you are not an Armenian).

    Replies: @Ano4, @AnonFromTN, @reiner Tor

  119. @AltanBakshi
    Creators of modern Iran have all come from the Turko-Persian circles of Azerbaijan. Tabriz and surrounding regions were the orignal seat of the Safavids and although I am not completely sure I think that Qajars also were from there. Therefore many Iranian Azerbaijanis think and believe that they are as integral part of the Iran as the Persians are. At least they are the actual builders of the Persian empire during the era of islam and gathererers of the Iranian lands. They made Iran Shia, they beat the Ottoman incursions etc. Republic of Azerbaijan is once again one of these strange and young fake countries, lackimg understanding or knowledge of themselves and their history, very few them are really Shia, or have genuine understanding of Shia tradition. But although there would be problems it would be better to return majority of it to Iran, Russia could take adjacent Dagestani lands, which are populated by Dargins and Tats, and Armenia could take its own. My personal experiences of Armenians have been mostly positive and I think that they are cultured people. I am appaled by some Russian commentators on the social media and their attitudes towards the Armenian people. Armenoans didnt just get massacred as a Russian fifth column in ww1 but like I already mentioned lost the Kars oblast because of the Soviets and not just that, Soviets for some reason gave Karabakh to Azerbaijan, even though the region between Artsakh and Azerbaijan proper was in those times mostly populated by Kurds, not Azerbaijanis, and Nakhichevan with large Armenian minority was also given to Azerbaijan and not made autonomous part of Armenia like Karabakh was made part of Azerbaija. Strange double standards. Then there is ano4 who reminds people of Armenian legion of SS. Hey ano4 what about all the Russians, Kalmyks, Cossacks in the SS? If I would start to despise people based on couple bad experiences I would start to hate the majority of Human race. I was once beaten in 2003 by a Russian gopnik, should I now hate Russians? Okay I had a big mouth but i was much younger and weaker than the other guy...

    Replies: @Ano4

    Qajars also were from there.

    Qajars were Muslims from Georgia.

    Other than that you are correct about the Alevi Shia Qizilbash Turks building up the Persian Safavid Empire.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qizilbash

    [MORE]

    I already mentioned lost the Kars oblast because of the Soviets and not just that, Soviets for some reason gave Karabakh to Azerbaijan

    Well as Stalin noted, there were ethnic cleansings on both sides.


    «Армения, измученная и многострадальная, отданная милостью Антанты и дашнаков на голод, разорение и беженство, – эта обманутая всеми “друзьями” Армения ныне обрела свое избавление в том, что объявила себя советской страной.
    Ни лживые заверения Англии, “вековой защитницы” армянских интересов; ни пресловутые четырнадцать пунктов Вильсона; ни широковещательные обещания Лиги наций с ее “мандатом” на управление Арменией – не смогли (и не могли!) спасти Армению от резни и физического истребления. Только идея Советской власти принесла Армении мир и возможность национального обновления.
    Вот некоторые факты, приведшие к советизации Армении. Губительная политика дашнаков, агентов Антанты, приводит страну к анархии и нищете. Война с Турцией, затеянная дашнаками, доводит тяжелое положение Армении до последней крайности. Измученные голодом и бесправием северные провинции Армении восстают в конце ноября и создают революционный военный комитет Армении во главе с тов. Касьяном. 30 ноября получается от предревкома Армении на имя тов. Ленина приветственная телеграмма с сообщением о рождении Советской Армении и занятии ревкомом города Делижана. 1 декабря Советский Азербайджан добровольно отказывается от спорных провинций и декларирует передачу Советской Армении Зангезура, Нахичевани, Нагорного Карабаха. 1 декабря ревком получает приветствие от турецкого командования. 2 декабря получается сообщение тов. Орджоникидзе о том, что дашнакское правительство в Эривани изгнано и войска Армении отдают себя в распоряжение ревкома.
    Ныне столица Армении, Эривань, в руках Советской власти Армении.
    ВЕКОВАЯ ВРАЖДА МЕЖДУ АРМЕНИЕЙ И ОКРУЖАЮЩИМИ ЕЕ МУСУЛЬМАНАМИ РЕШИЛАСЬ ОДНИМ УДАРОМ, ПУТЕМ УСТАНОВЛЕНИЯ БРАТСКОЙ СОЛИДАРНОСТИ МЕЖДУ ТРУДЯЩИМИСЯ АРМЕНИИ, ТУРЦИИ, АЗЕРБАЙДЖАНА.
    Пусть знают все, кому ведать надлежит, что так называемую армянскую “проблему”, над которой тщетно ломали голову старые волки империалистической дипломатии, оказалась в силах разрешить только Советская власть».

    * * *

    «Фактор, тормозящий объединение республик в один союз, – это национализм в отдельных республиках… нэп и связанный с ним частный капитал питают, взращивают национализм грузинский, азербайджанский, узбекский и пр… Если бы этот национализм был только оборонительный, можно было бы еще не поднимать из-за него шума… Азербайджан. Основная национальность – азербайджанская, но там есть и армяне. Среди одной части азербайджанцев тоже имеется такая тенденция, иногда очень неприкрытая, насчет того, что мы, дескать, азербайджанцы, – коренные, а они, армяне, – пришельцы, нельзя ли их по этому случаю немного отодвинуть назад, не считаться с их интересами. Это – тоже шовинизм. Это подрывает то равенство национальностей, на основе которого строится Советская власть… Закавказье с ранних времен представляло арену резни и склоки, а потом, при меньшевизме и дашнаках, – арену войн. Вы знаете грузино-армянскую войну. Резня в начале и в конце 1905 года в Азербайджане вам тоже известна. Я могу назвать целый ряд районов, где большинство армян всю остальную часть населения, состоящую из татар, вырезали, – например, Зангезур. Могу указать на другую провинцию – Нахичевань. Там татары преобладали, и они вырезали всех армян. Это было как раз перед освобождением Армении и Грузии от ига империализма. (Голос с места: “По-своему разрешили национальный вопрос”.) Это тоже, конечно, известная форма разрешения национального вопроса. Но это – не советская форма разрешения. В этой обстановке взаимной национальной вражды русские рабочие, конечно, не при чем, ибо борются татары и армяне, без русских. Вот почему необходим в Закавказье специальный орган, который мог бы регулировать взаимоотношения между национальностями».

    И.В. СТАЛИН

    I guess the Soviets had to draw a demarcation line somewhere. But then, I’m not a fan of Soviet boundaries either, Kazakhstan, Crimea, Donbass, Estonia. There are so many boundaries that they demarcated according to some ideological twisted logic that it is too long to name them all.

    Then there is ano4 who reminds people of Armenian legion of SS. Hey ano4 what about all the Russians, Kalmyks, Cossacks in the SS?

    I once met one guy descending from one these Krasnow’s Cossacks He told me how his grandfather kept his Wafflen SS trenchcoat as a souvenir and how much he hated both Soviets and Jews. We had a couple of drinks, he was a very nice guy.

    I was once beaten in 2003 by a Russian gopnik, should I now hate Russians? Okay I had a big mouth but i was much younger and weaker than the other guy…

    Happens to the best of us. That’s what the gopnik were created for: to beat up decent people. As the Russian saying goes: “за одного битого двух не битых дают”. That’s what I used to hear when I come home complaining that I was roughed up by some bully when I was young.

    😁

    Now about Armenians and Azeris. I dislike them equally. But I don’t hate them. In the present situation though my opinion is best summarized by the following meme:

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EjMaXsgWAAcwJFf?format=jpg&

    Armenoids get too much sympathy. They are far from being saints, I try to set the record straight.

    😁

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @Ano4

    Okay nice to know that you are not holding any special antipathy towards Armenians.


    I once met one guy descending from one these Krasnow’s Cossacks He told me how his grandfather kept his Wafflen SS trenchcoat as a souvenir and how much he hated both Soviets and Jews. We had a couple of drinks, he was a very nice guy.
     
    So a traitor is okay as long as he is a Russian? All SS-men of Soviet Union were traitors and enemies of the people.

    But Qajars were definitely Tabriz or Azerbaijani Turks like the Safavids.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qajars_(tribe)

    I guess the Soviets had to draw a demarcation line somewhere. But then, I’m not a fan of Soviet boundaries either, Kazakhstan, Crimea, Donbass, Estonia. There are so many boundaries that they demarcated according to some ideological twisted logic that it is too long to name them all.
     
    Donbass and large Slavic majority areas of Kazakhstan were probably added for ensuring easier Sovietization of Ukraine and Russia. Although early Soviet Union was hostile against traditional Russian culture, it wasnt hostile against its own version of Russian culture, which was heavily modified, socialist and atheist. Thus the workers of Donbass and very Russified people of Kharkov were probably seen as a trustworthy good counterbalance against more traditionally minded and agrarian population. After all the capital of the Ukrainian SSR was Kharkov during the Stalin.

    Replies: @Ano4

  120. @Avery
    @AltanBakshi

    {And whats wrong with the Turks?}

    What isn't?

    Turks are nomad savages* who invaded Asia Minor and thru centuries of ethnic cleansing, massacres, and finally Genocide of Christian Armenians, Christian Greeks, and Christian Assyrians displaced the indigenous peoples of Asia Minor and now are squatting on somebody else' lands. 100s of 1,000s of Christian children were abducted by the nomad Muslim Turk savages after their parents were murdered. These children were sexually abused, forcibly Turkified. SOP for Turk nomads.

    Turks are abductors and rapists of Christian children.
    Turks are thieves: everything so-called "Turkish" was stolen from others - Armenians, Greeks, Assyrians, Persians, Arabs,.....Everything: cuisine, song, dance, culture,....
    Turks are the original ISIS: bloodthirsty murderers.

    Aren't you glad you asked


    { Muslim Greeks and Armenians love to larp as Turks. }

    There are lots of forcibly Islamized Armenians, Greeks, and Assyrians.
    They are traumatized hostages of a savage Islamofascist nomads.
    No normal civilized human being would, quote, 'love to larp as Turks'.
    It would be like Aram Khachaturian dreaming of howling like a pack of jackals.

    {Theres nothing wrong in being of Tatar,Tuvan, Yakut or Kyrgyz.}

    Who said there is?
    Show us the post, Uyguroğlu.
    _____________________________
    * Overwhelming majority.
    There lots and lots of civilized, righteous Turks, e.g. Orhan Pamuk, Taner Akçam,.....

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @Jazman, @reiner Tor, @Annatar

    Even if we grant all your points, throughout history the stronger groups have survived and the weaker ones have perished, why attack the Turks for being successful.

    Invading other peoples land and enslaving and killing them is not a crime, that is how countries expand and grow strong, there are tens of thousands of ethnic groups that once existed in the world that do not exist today because they were not strong enough to survive.

    The strong endure and the weak perish when it comes to history.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @Annatar


    The strong endure and the weak perish when it comes to history.
     
    That is true.

    https://www.biography.com/.image/t_share/MTE4MDAzNDEwNTU1MDc4MTU4/adolf-hitler-9340144-1-402.jpg

    Replies: @Ano4

  121. @Annatar
    @Avery

    Even if we grant all your points, throughout history the stronger groups have survived and the weaker ones have perished, why attack the Turks for being successful.

    Invading other peoples land and enslaving and killing them is not a crime, that is how countries expand and grow strong, there are tens of thousands of ethnic groups that once existed in the world that do not exist today because they were not strong enough to survive.

    The strong endure and the weak perish when it comes to history.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    The strong endure and the weak perish when it comes to history.

    That is true.

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @reiner Tor

    The Vienna painter was probably not strong enough. At least when compared to the Georgian Ossetian Seminary drop-out.

    https://i.imgflip.com/1hpmfa.jpg

    Replies: @reiner Tor

  122. @reiner Tor
    @Annatar


    The strong endure and the weak perish when it comes to history.
     
    That is true.

    https://www.biography.com/.image/t_share/MTE4MDAzNDEwNTU1MDc4MTU4/adolf-hitler-9340144-1-402.jpg

    Replies: @Ano4

    The Vienna painter was probably not strong enough. At least when compared to the Georgian Ossetian Seminary drop-out.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @Ano4

    True, but Stalin didn’t openly say such things.

    Replies: @Ano4, @Autists Anonymous Rehab Camp Fugitive

  123. @Ano4
    @reiner Tor

    The Vienna painter was probably not strong enough. At least when compared to the Georgian Ossetian Seminary drop-out.

    https://i.imgflip.com/1hpmfa.jpg

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    True, but Stalin didn’t openly say such things.

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @reiner Tor

    Of course, because Stalin was also more intelligent than Hitler was.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Mr. Hack

    , @Autists Anonymous Rehab Camp Fugitive
    @reiner Tor

    Neither did uncle Adolf tbh.

  124. @reiner Tor
    @Ano4

    True, but Stalin didn’t openly say such things.

    Replies: @Ano4, @Autists Anonymous Rehab Camp Fugitive

    Of course, because Stalin was also more intelligent than Hitler was.

    • Agree: AltanBakshi, Yevardian
    • LOL: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @Ano4

    Perhaps, though it must be noted that it didn’t matter. Hitler didn’t lose because he openly stated such things (though in a long book, or before his immediate entourage only, so people didn’t care for it), he lost because his vision was pretty much impossible to implement. Of course, what Stalin wanted was also impossible, but it didn’t become apparent in such a dramatic fashion.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @Kent Nationalist, @Yevardian

    , @Mr. Hack
    @Ano4

    And Hitler didn't create an elaborate penal system (concentration camps) to starve or freeze his own for being "bourgeois nationalists" either. You're not one of those that still idolizes this tyrant?

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @Ano4

  125. @Ano4
    @reiner Tor

    Of course, because Stalin was also more intelligent than Hitler was.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Mr. Hack

    Perhaps, though it must be noted that it didn’t matter. Hitler didn’t lose because he openly stated such things (though in a long book, or before his immediate entourage only, so people didn’t care for it), he lost because his vision was pretty much impossible to implement. Of course, what Stalin wanted was also impossible, but it didn’t become apparent in such a dramatic fashion.

    • Agree: Ano4
    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @reiner Tor

    Hitler could easily have won by giving Rommel couple more Tank divisions and not attacking Soviet Uniom, after conquerimg of Suez and sympathetic and oil rich Iraq the British empire would have been on its knees. But he was too greedy and lacked grander view of geopolitics. Stalin was too cautious to go on offensive against Germany, especially after the failure of the Winter War.

    , @Kent Nationalist
    @reiner Tor


    Hitler didn’t lose because he openly stated such things (though in a long book, or before his immediate entourage only, so people didn’t care for it), he lost because his vision was pretty much impossible to implement.
     
    He lost because of a few contingencies in the war. A few tank divisions one way or another in August 1941, slightly different leadership in Britain and he might have won.

    Replies: @Ano4, @iffen, @Epigon

    , @Yevardian
    @reiner Tor


    Of course, what Stalin wanted was also impossible, but it didn’t become apparent in such a dramatic fashion.
     
    Stalin has always seemed very grounded and realistic in his goals to me, I don't think he really believed in Lenin or Trotsky's ideas of a millenarian global revolution, and he fully conceded in private that America was indisputably the world's most powerful country after WW2 and strenuously tried to avoid conflicting with them.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

  126. @Ano4
    @reiner Tor

    Of course, because Stalin was also more intelligent than Hitler was.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Mr. Hack

    And Hitler didn’t create an elaborate penal system (concentration camps) to starve or freeze his own for being “bourgeois nationalists” either. You’re not one of those that still idolizes this tyrant?

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @Mr. Hack

    Hey show some respect to the gatherer of the Ukrainian lands!

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Korbashi

    , @Ano4
    @Mr. Hack

    Being a tyrant doesn't preclude someone from being clever.

    And many greatest Russian statesmen were tyrants to some extent.

    My main beef with the Father of the Peoples is that he murdered a lot of Russians and gave a lot of Russian lands to Kazakhstan and Ukraine.

    Other than that he did a few nice things as well, like ordering Trotsky killed, ensuing the liquidation of Konovalets and Bandera...

    Overall Stalin was a mixed blessing for Russia, like Mao for China.

  127. @reiner Tor
    @Ano4

    Perhaps, though it must be noted that it didn’t matter. Hitler didn’t lose because he openly stated such things (though in a long book, or before his immediate entourage only, so people didn’t care for it), he lost because his vision was pretty much impossible to implement. Of course, what Stalin wanted was also impossible, but it didn’t become apparent in such a dramatic fashion.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @Kent Nationalist, @Yevardian

    Hitler could easily have won by giving Rommel couple more Tank divisions and not attacking Soviet Uniom, after conquerimg of Suez and sympathetic and oil rich Iraq the British empire would have been on its knees. But he was too greedy and lacked grander view of geopolitics. Stalin was too cautious to go on offensive against Germany, especially after the failure of the Winter War.

  128. @Mr. Hack
    @Ano4

    And Hitler didn't create an elaborate penal system (concentration camps) to starve or freeze his own for being "bourgeois nationalists" either. You're not one of those that still idolizes this tyrant?

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @Ano4

    Hey show some respect to the gatherer of the Ukrainian lands!

    • Agree: Ano4
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @AltanBakshi

    It's too bad that he wasn't similarly inclined towards the gathering of the Ukrainian people and ended up being responsible for deaths of millions of Ukrainians through starvation.

    Replies: @Ano4

    , @Korbashi
    @AltanBakshi

    If I recall correctlty, that was sort of the argument of Francis Dvornik's _The Slavs in European History and Civilization_ (1962). Like him or not, Stalin brought the Slavs together and sure made it impossible to ignore them or their history. It has been a while since I read the book.

  129. The BBC’s report on the 10 o clock News last night was surprising pro-Armenian, with the reporter sheltering from Azeri bombs with ethnic Armenian civilians in Stepanakert.

    Their take was clearly that they see the Azeris as ruthless butchers. I find this surprising because I would have expected the BBC to be more pro-Azeri, because they’re Muslim and also because their big ally is Turkey, which is a NATO country.

    • Replies: @Spisarevski
    @Europe Europa


    The BBC’s report on the 10 o clock News last night was surprising pro-Armenian, with the reporter sheltering from Azeri bombs with ethnic Armenian civilians in Stepanakert.
     
    Just came to this thread to post that the Russian state TV news are surprisingly pro-Azerbaijan.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZAS4TtAsrw

    Starting from the title, "Conflict in Nagorno-Karabach: Casualties among Azeri civilian population are increasing".

    I found it funny that both the Armenian Prime Minister and the Azerbaijan President gave short interviews to a Russian political talk show ("60 minutes") in Russian. The Azeri president message was clearly tailored to Russian audience, said how the Soros-sponsored color revolution made the Armenians not willing to negotiate, etc. Pashinyan's statement was unfocused and he looked nervous.

    Then the video shows how people volunteer en masse in Azerbaijan to be drafted, and then a few clips of Russian journalists asking questions to Azeri officials, basically spreading their propaganda unchallenged.

    Replies: @Ano4

    , @Mikhail
    @Europe Europa

    Pashinyan in a not too distant BBC feature:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-mzKtQbwbM

    The particular journo interviewing him is known for being hard assed.

  130. @Ano4
    @AltanBakshi


    Qajars also were from there.
     
    Qajars were Muslims from Georgia.

    Other than that you are correct about the Alevi Shia Qizilbash Turks building up the Persian Safavid Empire.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qizilbash


    I already mentioned lost the Kars oblast because of the Soviets and not just that, Soviets for some reason gave Karabakh to Azerbaijan
     
    Well as Stalin noted, there were ethnic cleansings on both sides.


    «Армения, измученная и многострадальная, отданная милостью Антанты и дашнаков на голод, разорение и беженство, – эта обманутая всеми “друзьями” Армения ныне обрела свое избавление в том, что объявила себя советской страной.
    Ни лживые заверения Англии, “вековой защитницы” армянских интересов; ни пресловутые четырнадцать пунктов Вильсона; ни широковещательные обещания Лиги наций с ее “мандатом” на управление Арменией – не смогли (и не могли!) спасти Армению от резни и физического истребления. Только идея Советской власти принесла Армении мир и возможность национального обновления.
    Вот некоторые факты, приведшие к советизации Армении. Губительная политика дашнаков, агентов Антанты, приводит страну к анархии и нищете. Война с Турцией, затеянная дашнаками, доводит тяжелое положение Армении до последней крайности. Измученные голодом и бесправием северные провинции Армении восстают в конце ноября и создают революционный военный комитет Армении во главе с тов. Касьяном. 30 ноября получается от предревкома Армении на имя тов. Ленина приветственная телеграмма с сообщением о рождении Советской Армении и занятии ревкомом города Делижана. 1 декабря Советский Азербайджан добровольно отказывается от спорных провинций и декларирует передачу Советской Армении Зангезура, Нахичевани, Нагорного Карабаха. 1 декабря ревком получает приветствие от турецкого командования. 2 декабря получается сообщение тов. Орджоникидзе о том, что дашнакское правительство в Эривани изгнано и войска Армении отдают себя в распоряжение ревкома.
    Ныне столица Армении, Эривань, в руках Советской власти Армении.
    ВЕКОВАЯ ВРАЖДА МЕЖДУ АРМЕНИЕЙ И ОКРУЖАЮЩИМИ ЕЕ МУСУЛЬМАНАМИ РЕШИЛАСЬ ОДНИМ УДАРОМ, ПУТЕМ УСТАНОВЛЕНИЯ БРАТСКОЙ СОЛИДАРНОСТИ МЕЖДУ ТРУДЯЩИМИСЯ АРМЕНИИ, ТУРЦИИ, АЗЕРБАЙДЖАНА.
    Пусть знают все, кому ведать надлежит, что так называемую армянскую “проблему”, над которой тщетно ломали голову старые волки империалистической дипломатии, оказалась в силах разрешить только Советская власть».

    * * *

    «Фактор, тормозящий объединение республик в один союз, – это национализм в отдельных республиках… нэп и связанный с ним частный капитал питают, взращивают национализм грузинский, азербайджанский, узбекский и пр… Если бы этот национализм был только оборонительный, можно было бы еще не поднимать из-за него шума… Азербайджан. Основная национальность – азербайджанская, но там есть и армяне. Среди одной части азербайджанцев тоже имеется такая тенденция, иногда очень неприкрытая, насчет того, что мы, дескать, азербайджанцы, – коренные, а они, армяне, – пришельцы, нельзя ли их по этому случаю немного отодвинуть назад, не считаться с их интересами. Это – тоже шовинизм. Это подрывает то равенство национальностей, на основе которого строится Советская власть… Закавказье с ранних времен представляло арену резни и склоки, а потом, при меньшевизме и дашнаках, – арену войн. Вы знаете грузино-армянскую войну. Резня в начале и в конце 1905 года в Азербайджане вам тоже известна. Я могу назвать целый ряд районов, где большинство армян всю остальную часть населения, состоящую из татар, вырезали, – например, Зангезур. Могу указать на другую провинцию – Нахичевань. Там татары преобладали, и они вырезали всех армян. Это было как раз перед освобождением Армении и Грузии от ига империализма. (Голос с места: “По-своему разрешили национальный вопрос”.) Это тоже, конечно, известная форма разрешения национального вопроса. Но это – не советская форма разрешения. В этой обстановке взаимной национальной вражды русские рабочие, конечно, не при чем, ибо борются татары и армяне, без русских. Вот почему необходим в Закавказье специальный орган, который мог бы регулировать взаимоотношения между национальностями».

    И.В. СТАЛИН


    I guess the Soviets had to draw a demarcation line somewhere. But then, I'm not a fan of Soviet boundaries either, Kazakhstan, Crimea, Donbass, Estonia. There are so many boundaries that they demarcated according to some ideological twisted logic that it is too long to name them all.

    Then there is ano4 who reminds people of Armenian legion of SS. Hey ano4 what about all the Russians, Kalmyks, Cossacks in the SS?
     
    I once met one guy descending from one these Krasnow's Cossacks He told me how his grandfather kept his Wafflen SS trenchcoat as a souvenir and how much he hated both Soviets and Jews. We had a couple of drinks, he was a very nice guy.

    I was once beaten in 2003 by a Russian gopnik, should I now hate Russians? Okay I had a big mouth but i was much younger and weaker than the other guy…
     
    Happens to the best of us. That's what the gopnik were created for: to beat up decent people. As the Russian saying goes: "за одного битого двух не битых дают". That's what I used to hear when I come home complaining that I was roughed up by some bully when I was young.

    😁

    Now about Armenians and Azeris. I dislike them equally. But I don't hate them. In the present situation though my opinion is best summarized by the following meme:

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EjMaXsgWAAcwJFf?format=jpg&

    Armenoids get too much sympathy. They are far from being saints, I try to set the record straight.

    😁

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    Okay nice to know that you are not holding any special antipathy towards Armenians.

    I once met one guy descending from one these Krasnow’s Cossacks He told me how his grandfather kept his Wafflen SS trenchcoat as a souvenir and how much he hated both Soviets and Jews. We had a couple of drinks, he was a very nice guy.

    So a traitor is okay as long as he is a Russian? All SS-men of Soviet Union were traitors and enemies of the people.

    But Qajars were definitely Tabriz or Azerbaijani Turks like the Safavids.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qajars_(tribe)

    I guess the Soviets had to draw a demarcation line somewhere. But then, I’m not a fan of Soviet boundaries either, Kazakhstan, Crimea, Donbass, Estonia. There are so many boundaries that they demarcated according to some ideological twisted logic that it is too long to name them all.

    Donbass and large Slavic majority areas of Kazakhstan were probably added for ensuring easier Sovietization of Ukraine and Russia. Although early Soviet Union was hostile against traditional Russian culture, it wasnt hostile against its own version of Russian culture, which was heavily modified, socialist and atheist. Thus the workers of Donbass and very Russified people of Kharkov were probably seen as a trustworthy good counterbalance against more traditionally minded and agrarian population. After all the capital of the Ukrainian SSR was Kharkov during the Stalin.

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @AltanBakshi


    So a traitor is okay as long as he is a Russian? All SS-men of Soviet Union were traitors and enemies of the people
     
    You might have been a traitor to the Soviets without being a traitor to the Russian people.

    The core of Krasnow's Cossacks were mainly White Russian emigrants. The guy I referred to in my comment had his grandfather living in Serbia after evacuation from Crimea during the Civil War. Just like Krasnow and Shkuro he was a White Guard officer who gladly joined the Nazi to kill the Commie.

    https://weaponsandwarfare.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/6a4cb-kaz-3.jpg

    After the terrible things that Red Guard and (mainly) Jewish commissars did in the Kuban region, one might easily understand why Cossacks (including the Kalmyk) itched at setting scores with the Soviets.

    Jewish commissars of course also had scores to settle with the Cossacks who were the equivalent of the anti-riot police in the Tzar times and were also known for their pogroms during the Civil War.

    I understand the motivation of both parties.

    BTW Krasnow's son kept setting scores in Chile, where he was a counterintelligence officer under Pinochet.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miguel_Krassnoff

    An eye for an eye etc.

    If one reads Krasnow's book " From Double Headed Eagle to the Red Banner ", one understands perfectly what the personage he was.

    https://www.amazon.ca/Double-Headed-Eagle-Red-Flag-1894-1921/dp/5519450420

    I actually have no trouble understanding why Stalin and Hitler did what they did. All sentient beings act according to their perception of right and wrong, and all of them are of course subjective and misguided to some extent.

    Including myself...

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @Mikhail

  131. @reiner Tor
    @Ano4

    Perhaps, though it must be noted that it didn’t matter. Hitler didn’t lose because he openly stated such things (though in a long book, or before his immediate entourage only, so people didn’t care for it), he lost because his vision was pretty much impossible to implement. Of course, what Stalin wanted was also impossible, but it didn’t become apparent in such a dramatic fashion.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @Kent Nationalist, @Yevardian

    Hitler didn’t lose because he openly stated such things (though in a long book, or before his immediate entourage only, so people didn’t care for it), he lost because his vision was pretty much impossible to implement.

    He lost because of a few contingencies in the war. A few tank divisions one way or another in August 1941, slightly different leadership in Britain and he might have won.

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @Kent Nationalist

    He lost because he saw Slavs in general as subhuman untermenshen. This is of course a consequence of him growing up in the Austrian Empire.

    , @iffen
    @Kent Nationalist

    slightly different leadership in Britain

    Slightly different leadership in Britain in the late 30's and his plans would have been stillborn.

    Replies: @Kent Nationalist

    , @Epigon
    @Kent Nationalist

    Lol, no.

    Long story short - Germans timed their offensive on USSR very very well, extra Pz and Mot in Africa would only excerberate the logistical issues due to Malta, RN and RAF; German logistical tail to Moscow was unsustainable, and the hypothetical diversion of tanks towards Moscow instead of eliminating the Kiev salient could have been a total disaster. German success at sucker punches and the industrial/geopolitical reality meant that Germans got the best chance in 1941. In 1942, RKKA would have been an entirely different affair - for example, T-34 wouldn’t be in production anymore.

    Replies: @Kent Nationalist, @AP, @reiner Tor, @GazaPlanet

  132. @Mr. Hack
    @Ano4

    And Hitler didn't create an elaborate penal system (concentration camps) to starve or freeze his own for being "bourgeois nationalists" either. You're not one of those that still idolizes this tyrant?

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @Ano4

    Being a tyrant doesn’t preclude someone from being clever.

    And many greatest Russian statesmen were tyrants to some extent.

    My main beef with the Father of the Peoples is that he murdered a lot of Russians and gave a lot of Russian lands to Kazakhstan and Ukraine.

    Other than that he did a few nice things as well, like ordering Trotsky killed, ensuing the liquidation of Konovalets and Bandera…

    Overall Stalin was a mixed blessing for Russia, like Mao for China.

  133. @AltanBakshi
    @Ano4

    Okay nice to know that you are not holding any special antipathy towards Armenians.


    I once met one guy descending from one these Krasnow’s Cossacks He told me how his grandfather kept his Wafflen SS trenchcoat as a souvenir and how much he hated both Soviets and Jews. We had a couple of drinks, he was a very nice guy.
     
    So a traitor is okay as long as he is a Russian? All SS-men of Soviet Union were traitors and enemies of the people.

    But Qajars were definitely Tabriz or Azerbaijani Turks like the Safavids.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qajars_(tribe)

    I guess the Soviets had to draw a demarcation line somewhere. But then, I’m not a fan of Soviet boundaries either, Kazakhstan, Crimea, Donbass, Estonia. There are so many boundaries that they demarcated according to some ideological twisted logic that it is too long to name them all.
     
    Donbass and large Slavic majority areas of Kazakhstan were probably added for ensuring easier Sovietization of Ukraine and Russia. Although early Soviet Union was hostile against traditional Russian culture, it wasnt hostile against its own version of Russian culture, which was heavily modified, socialist and atheist. Thus the workers of Donbass and very Russified people of Kharkov were probably seen as a trustworthy good counterbalance against more traditionally minded and agrarian population. After all the capital of the Ukrainian SSR was Kharkov during the Stalin.

    Replies: @Ano4

    So a traitor is okay as long as he is a Russian? All SS-men of Soviet Union were traitors and enemies of the people

    You might have been a traitor to the Soviets without being a traitor to the Russian people.

    The core of Krasnow’s Cossacks were mainly White Russian emigrants. The guy I referred to in my comment had his grandfather living in Serbia after evacuation from Crimea during the Civil War. Just like Krasnow and Shkuro he was a White Guard officer who gladly joined the Nazi to kill the Commie.

    [MORE]

    After the terrible things that Red Guard and (mainly) Jewish commissars did in the Kuban region, one might easily understand why Cossacks (including the Kalmyk) itched at setting scores with the Soviets.

    Jewish commissars of course also had scores to settle with the Cossacks who were the equivalent of the anti-riot police in the Tzar times and were also known for their pogroms during the Civil War.

    I understand the motivation of both parties.

    BTW Krasnow’s son kept setting scores in Chile, where he was a counterintelligence officer under Pinochet.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miguel_Krassnoff

    An eye for an eye etc.

    If one reads Krasnow’s book ” From Double Headed Eagle to the Red Banner “, one understands perfectly what the personage he was.

    I actually have no trouble understanding why Stalin and Hitler did what they did. All sentient beings act according to their perception of right and wrong, and all of them are of course subjective and misguided to some extent.

    Including myself…

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @Ano4

    Almost all, not all. From Orthodox or Buddhist point of view perfection is possible, so there is hope. So did the ancient Greeks believe, that there are rare individuals, truly wise Sophos, sages. As did traditional Muslims with their Walis who have Baraka, holiness.

    Main sign of modernist mindset is a belief that all being are categorically more or less deluded, I am and probably all on this site, but it does not mean that there has never been perfect men or women. Although our concept of perfection has been too strongly coloured by enlightenment rationality and we automatically think that perfect man must be some kind of superman. But I am just nitpicking, I dont believe that you have that kind of mindset.

    , @Mikhail
    @Ano4


    Jewish commissars of course also had scores to settle with the Cossacks who were the equivalent of the anti-riot police in the Tzar times and were also known for their pogroms during the Civil War.
     
    Some of these were provoked by anti-government elements which included instances of Cossacks being sent in to stop such action. The pogroms served as international trouble for the Russian government. Much of that sort of violence was societal, as opposed to something ordered from the top - which isn't to say that there were some in government who were okay with that manner.

    Kind of reminded of US situations, involving the issue of violence and dark complexioned people.
  134. @Kent Nationalist
    @reiner Tor


    Hitler didn’t lose because he openly stated such things (though in a long book, or before his immediate entourage only, so people didn’t care for it), he lost because his vision was pretty much impossible to implement.
     
    He lost because of a few contingencies in the war. A few tank divisions one way or another in August 1941, slightly different leadership in Britain and he might have won.

    Replies: @Ano4, @iffen, @Epigon

    He lost because he saw Slavs in general as subhuman untermenshen. This is of course a consequence of him growing up in the Austrian Empire.

  135. @Ano4
    @AltanBakshi


    So a traitor is okay as long as he is a Russian? All SS-men of Soviet Union were traitors and enemies of the people
     
    You might have been a traitor to the Soviets without being a traitor to the Russian people.

    The core of Krasnow's Cossacks were mainly White Russian emigrants. The guy I referred to in my comment had his grandfather living in Serbia after evacuation from Crimea during the Civil War. Just like Krasnow and Shkuro he was a White Guard officer who gladly joined the Nazi to kill the Commie.

    https://weaponsandwarfare.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/6a4cb-kaz-3.jpg

    After the terrible things that Red Guard and (mainly) Jewish commissars did in the Kuban region, one might easily understand why Cossacks (including the Kalmyk) itched at setting scores with the Soviets.

    Jewish commissars of course also had scores to settle with the Cossacks who were the equivalent of the anti-riot police in the Tzar times and were also known for their pogroms during the Civil War.

    I understand the motivation of both parties.

    BTW Krasnow's son kept setting scores in Chile, where he was a counterintelligence officer under Pinochet.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miguel_Krassnoff

    An eye for an eye etc.

    If one reads Krasnow's book " From Double Headed Eagle to the Red Banner ", one understands perfectly what the personage he was.

    https://www.amazon.ca/Double-Headed-Eagle-Red-Flag-1894-1921/dp/5519450420

    I actually have no trouble understanding why Stalin and Hitler did what they did. All sentient beings act according to their perception of right and wrong, and all of them are of course subjective and misguided to some extent.

    Including myself...

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @Mikhail

    Almost all, not all. From Orthodox or Buddhist point of view perfection is possible, so there is hope. So did the ancient Greeks believe, that there are rare individuals, truly wise Sophos, sages. As did traditional Muslims with their Walis who have Baraka, holiness.

    Main sign of modernist mindset is a belief that all being are categorically more or less deluded, I am and probably all on this site, but it does not mean that there has never been perfect men or women. Although our concept of perfection has been too strongly coloured by enlightenment rationality and we automatically think that perfect man must be some kind of superman. But I am just nitpicking, I dont believe that you have that kind of mindset.

    • Agree: Ano4
  136. @Ano4
    Pashinian says that Armenia is ready for a cease fire and would accept Russian peacekeepers in Karabakh.

    Russia has officially replied that Russian peacekeepers can only be deployed if asked by both Armenian and Azeri governments.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

    Russia has officially replied that Russian peacekeepers can only be deployed if asked by both Armenian and Azeri governments.

    Which is a logical extension of Russian policy of neutrality and non-interference. Proves yet again that Aliyev’s calculations were correct. If he were just a bit more patient and waited until Armenia formally withdraws from ODKB treaty (essentially Russian obligation to protect other members), he could have leveled the whole Armenia in cooperation with Erdogan. Then the fate of Armenians would be exactly the same as of those who had the misfortune to be in Turkey in the early twentieth century or in Azerbaijan in the late twentieth century. The Empire and its vassals would raise a stink but won’t lift a finger to help. History has shown that only Russia can protect Armenia. So, Pashinian’s policy of moving the country away from its alliance with Russia shows that he is not just Soros-linked scum, but also an idiot (always assuming that he cares about Armenia, which might be a wrong assumption).

    • Replies: @Mikhail
    @AnonFromTN

    Who appears more astute between Aliyev and Pashinyan?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_VXEhG6hmQ&feature=emb_title

    Looks like Padhinyan might have to either divert from a Sorosian outlook or get replaced. The fact that he has gone against pro-Russian folks in Armenia indicates that not all Armenians are gah-gah over him.

    , @Mikhail
    @AnonFromTN

    Who appears more astute between Aliyev and Pashinyan?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_VXEhG6hmQ&feature=emb_title

    Looks like Padhinyan might have to either divert from a Sorosian outlook or get replaced. The fact that he has gone against pro-Russian folks in Armenia indicates that not all Armenians are gah-gah over him.

  137. @Dmitry
    @songbird

    Israel population is more mixed like Brazil or America. That doesn't exclude it being tribal, but the tribal identity is based on religion, lifestyle, and clothes, not the skin colour.

    In some parts of the Israel's elite (for example, Supreme Court), or in the hermetically closed religious communities, there can be still a quite homogenous people.

    But even if you divide the normal population by specific religious/social groups, they are usually more like random mix. And that's why partly why the language and the ideologies, are so important there, compared to traditional countries.

    So if you search for is a secular Jewish school in city like Beersheba, it is highly diverse.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVx9HNfJhtI

    But even the orthodox religious nationalist sector, have the same kind of mix of brown and lighter races.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoZPV-v_W-s

    Palestinians are more homogenous racially, so in at least that one sense it could be a "real people" or authentic nationality (or less ideologically constructed), than the Jews in Israel. But even much more homogenous Palestinians' population is not exactly pure looking.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJbAq-heeqE

    -

    Israel is somewhere near the opposite end of comparison, to the pure nationalities like Armenians, where the population looks almost all from the same family as each other.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @songbird

    All these countries with a draft must be a treasure trove of HBD statistics. I should like to see numbers for the different groups of Jews, but I suppose, in most cases, the data is not very accessible to researchers.

    I heard Denmark locked down on their testing data, after embarrassing things were revealed about the immigrant pop.

  138. @Astuteobservor II
    I think Russia and Putin is just waiting for Armenian govt to cave and ask for help.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

    I think Russia and Putin is just waiting for Armenian govt to cave and ask for help.

    I strongly suspect that current Armenian government won’t get any help from Russia. Besides, Armenians (technically Karabakh forces) just struck Azeri city of Gyandzha (also spelled as Ganja), giving Putin an extra excuse not to interfere: ODKB treaty contains an obligation to protect attacked member, but no obligation to support member’s aggression against anyone. My bet is that Armenia has a chance to get Russian help only after its people change the government and kick out all Soros-linked scum. It may be too late already.

    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
    @AnonFromTN

    There is nothing wrong with Russia waiting till the collapsed of the current Armenian govt before going in to save the day. If it comes to that point.

  139. @David Davenport
    The evolution of drones:

    Pocket Force Of Stealthy Avenger Drones May Have Made Returning F-117s To Service Unnecessary

    Avengers have flown over Syria and the secretive nature of who owns and operates the handful that have been delivered points to a clandestine program.

    BY JOSEPH TREVITHICK AND TYLER ROGOWAYMARCH 5, 2019


    https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/26791/pocket-force-of-stealthy-avenger-drones-may-have-made-returning-f-117s-to-service-unnecessary

    Replies: @The Wild Geese Howard

    Thank you for the article.

    To me, the most interesting part was how tightly the Air Force restricted pilot qualifications on the Avenger drone type.

    I thought it was a very interesting contrast between the AF process and how loose Boeing and the FAA were with 737 Max type qualification.

    I can only take this distinction as evidence of what the people in charge consider truly important.

  140. @Kent Nationalist
    @reiner Tor


    Hitler didn’t lose because he openly stated such things (though in a long book, or before his immediate entourage only, so people didn’t care for it), he lost because his vision was pretty much impossible to implement.
     
    He lost because of a few contingencies in the war. A few tank divisions one way or another in August 1941, slightly different leadership in Britain and he might have won.

    Replies: @Ano4, @iffen, @Epigon

    slightly different leadership in Britain

    Slightly different leadership in Britain in the late 30’s and his plans would have been stillborn.

    • Replies: @Kent Nationalist
    @iffen

    I disagree. War was too unpopular until the annexation of Czechoslovakia

    Replies: @iffen

  141. @reiner Tor
    @AltanBakshi

    I think Turks would be okay if they weren’t Muslims. They are also genocidal, at least totally unapologetic about their genocide of Christians, including Armenians, but also Greeks and others.

    I still wish them well, but I don’t think they should get to exterminate or ethnically cleanse a further chunk of the Armenian land, after what they did to the rest of Armenia a century ago.

    Replies: @Verymuchalive

    The Turks are the result of miscegenation. Fairly small numbers of Turks came into Anatolia after Manzikert ( 1071 ). They mixed, often forcibly, with the Greek and Armenian-speaking inhabitants and very largely imposed Islam on them. These Greeks and Armenian speakers were themselves the descendants of prior civilisations going back to the Hittites and earlier.
    Islam is a tabula rasa religion, unlike Christianity or Buddhism. It seeks to erase all of the past previous to its imposition. Given that Turks are the result of the miscegenation with infidels, the infidels must be erased. That was Ottoman policy – to culturally erase, physically if necessary, these infidels.
    The retention of Hagia Sophia as a Mosque was a gross mistake from that point of view – it should have been destroyed in 1453.
    No, I don’t wish the Turks well.

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @Verymuchalive

    The Central Asian ancestry is probably around 10% of the modern Turkish population. The Anatolian Turks are indeed mainly the result of the indigenous populations acculturation. An example comes to mind, Kheirredine and Aruç pashas of the Barbary pirates' fame had a Turk officer as a father and a Greek mother who was a widow of an Orthodox clergyman.

    Replies: @Verymuchalive

  142. @Commentator Mike
    @AnonFromTN

    I don't know much about that region but should Russia really bother with them? I think that those who turn towards the West will suffer sooner or later. Wasn't Gaddafi trying to cozy up to Blair and Obama and look how it ended up for Libya? And look at the state of Ukraine now. Even in Eastern Europe, all those countries joining NATO, is it really such a threat to Russia? Once someone joins NATO they just go on the target list for Russia's nukes, and those missiles won't have to travel far to reach their targets the closer they are to Russia. I don't think the US will ever risk getting obliterated for the sake of its NATO satellites and it could easily let them go down the drain. Russia is not the old USSR interested in territorial expansion and ready to send the tanks rolling in when someone turns against it. Crimea was strategically important but then most people there wanted to join Russia. Look at those Christian Georgians allowing Turkey to transport weapons and fighters through its territory against Armenia who is no threat to them and almost as much Russophobic as they are. Maybe Russia should even let go of those Muslim republics in the south and deport most Muslims back to them. Then Christian Armenia and Georgia will be surrounded by Muslims and let's see if the West will help them. They'll then go crying to Russia for help but why should it? Of course the Western media will make a big deal about Russia being weak for not getting involved in all these troubles on its borders. But if it does get involved they'll then complain about Russian expansionism. Who cares what the Western media says? I don't think Russia has to worry about external treats but from the pro-Western filth fifth columns inside the country. The only reason I can see why Russia should get involved in any conflicts and wars is to try out its weapons and tactics and to keep its soldiers in fighting form for when they may be required to defend their country.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

    The only reason I can see why Russia should get involved in any conflicts and wars is to try out its weapons and tactics and to keep its soldiers in fighting form for when they may be required to defend their country.

    You are very rational. So am I, so I agree. This appears to be a big chunk of Putin’s thinking, too. But politics cannot be 100% rational: you have to engage your subjects emotionally. Putin certainly wants to punish Armenians for placing Pashinian and others of his ilk into power. The only reason I see for him to protect Armenia proper is to show wannabe sultan his limits. Other than that, Armenia is not important enough geopolitically to even be the first item on his daily briefing. There is ~95% chance that Karabakh is a goner. Unless that stimulates Armenians to kick out Pahinian and his gang and replace them with more rational people who actually care about Armenia, Armenia would be a goner, too.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @AnonFromTN


    Karabakh is a goner. (...) Armenia would be a goner, too.
     
    That’d be sad. Armenians are arguably a real nation, with some important cultural contributions to the world. While Azeris... they resemble a nation of Borats. Okay, their nationalistic military videos are cool.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN, @Dmitry

  143. @iffen
    @Kent Nationalist

    slightly different leadership in Britain

    Slightly different leadership in Britain in the late 30's and his plans would have been stillborn.

    Replies: @Kent Nationalist

    I disagree. War was too unpopular until the annexation of Czechoslovakia

    • Replies: @iffen
    @Kent Nationalist

    War was too unpopular

    War is unpopular amongst the English, Scots, Irish and their descendants? What planet are you from?

  144. @AnonFromTN
    @Commentator Mike


    The only reason I can see why Russia should get involved in any conflicts and wars is to try out its weapons and tactics and to keep its soldiers in fighting form for when they may be required to defend their country.
     
    You are very rational. So am I, so I agree. This appears to be a big chunk of Putin’s thinking, too. But politics cannot be 100% rational: you have to engage your subjects emotionally. Putin certainly wants to punish Armenians for placing Pashinian and others of his ilk into power. The only reason I see for him to protect Armenia proper is to show wannabe sultan his limits. Other than that, Armenia is not important enough geopolitically to even be the first item on his daily briefing. There is ~95% chance that Karabakh is a goner. Unless that stimulates Armenians to kick out Pahinian and his gang and replace them with more rational people who actually care about Armenia, Armenia would be a goner, too.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    Karabakh is a goner. (…) Armenia would be a goner, too.

    That’d be sad. Armenians are arguably a real nation, with some important cultural contributions to the world. While Azeris… they resemble a nation of Borats. Okay, their nationalistic military videos are cool.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    @reiner Tor


    That’d be sad.
     
    I agree. Then again, they only have themselves to blame. When a nation with about three thousand years of history chooses a cheap clown like Pashinian to lead it, it’s a sure sign of deep decline. I am not claiming that Azeris can boast of being a real nation, but Aliyev is at least ten times smarter than Pashinian. He has another clear strength: he cares about his country, whereas Soros-raised scum usually does not.
    , @Dmitry
    @reiner Tor

    If I recall, one of the jokes of that film is that Borat is from Kazakhstan, he hates Uzbekistan, and he views life in terms of a conflict between the two postsoviet countries, which is the film's audience is supposed to be unable to distinguish between.

    For most of the film, Caucasian countries would have been a more accurate location for the character Borat, rather than the Central Asian countries. Except the bride kidnapping ending of the film, which was indeed very Central Asian (it is mostly Central Asian tradition, although it is in the Caucasus as well).

    -

    If you re-wrote the famous musical West Side Story, in a Russian city instead of New York, and therefore with a plausible story of the Armenian immigrant falling in love with the Azerbaijani immigrant woman - one of the main problems would be that the audience will be unable to distinguish between the lovers' nationalities.

    They could insert some songs about "my nationality's family names end with -an, while your nationality's family names end with -ev ". Or such song about "We don't go to church, while you don't go to mosque".

    And try to avoid too much songs about "my grandparents lives in building from Khrushchev's time, while your grandparents live in building built by Brezhnev" or "we both eat dolma".

    But it's another reason for the wider world to be uninterested in the war, as how would the international audience choose their favourite side? - either you like all the Caucasian nationalities and their local culture, or you don't like it.

    Replies: @Dmitry

  145. @Verymuchalive
    @reiner Tor

    The Turks are the result of miscegenation. Fairly small numbers of Turks came into Anatolia after Manzikert ( 1071 ). They mixed, often forcibly, with the Greek and Armenian-speaking inhabitants and very largely imposed Islam on them. These Greeks and Armenian speakers were themselves the descendants of prior civilisations going back to the Hittites and earlier.
    Islam is a tabula rasa religion, unlike Christianity or Buddhism. It seeks to erase all of the past previous to its imposition. Given that Turks are the result of the miscegenation with infidels, the infidels must be erased. That was Ottoman policy - to culturally erase, physically if necessary, these infidels.
    The retention of Hagia Sophia as a Mosque was a gross mistake from that point of view - it should have been destroyed in 1453.
    No, I don't wish the Turks well.

    Replies: @Ano4

    The Central Asian ancestry is probably around 10% of the modern Turkish population. The Anatolian Turks are indeed mainly the result of the indigenous populations acculturation. An example comes to mind, Kheirredine and Aruç pashas of the Barbary pirates’ fame had a Turk officer as a father and a Greek mother who was a widow of an Orthodox clergyman.

    • Replies: @Verymuchalive
    @Ano4

    I have seen figures of 20% or more. It would probably depend on which part of Anatolia.

    Replies: @Blinky Bill, @Ano4

  146. @reiner Tor
    @AnonFromTN


    Karabakh is a goner. (...) Armenia would be a goner, too.
     
    That’d be sad. Armenians are arguably a real nation, with some important cultural contributions to the world. While Azeris... they resemble a nation of Borats. Okay, their nationalistic military videos are cool.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN, @Dmitry

    That’d be sad.

    I agree. Then again, they only have themselves to blame. When a nation with about three thousand years of history chooses a cheap clown like Pashinian to lead it, it’s a sure sign of deep decline. I am not claiming that Azeris can boast of being a real nation, but Aliyev is at least ten times smarter than Pashinian. He has another clear strength: he cares about his country, whereas Soros-raised scum usually does not.

  147. @AltanBakshi
    @Mr. Hack

    Hey show some respect to the gatherer of the Ukrainian lands!

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Korbashi

    It’s too bad that he wasn’t similarly inclined towards the gathering of the Ukrainian people and ended up being responsible for deaths of millions of Ukrainians through starvation.

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @Mr. Hack

    Stalin was quite impartial when it come up to starving people. He starved Russians and other populations of USSR as well as Ukrainians.

    Although I certainly understand that Ukrainian nationalists only care about Ukrainian victims. True compassion begins at home...

    🙂

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Mr. Hack

  148. @AnonFromTN
    @Astuteobservor II


    I think Russia and Putin is just waiting for Armenian govt to cave and ask for help.
     
    I strongly suspect that current Armenian government won’t get any help from Russia. Besides, Armenians (technically Karabakh forces) just struck Azeri city of Gyandzha (also spelled as Ganja), giving Putin an extra excuse not to interfere: ODKB treaty contains an obligation to protect attacked member, but no obligation to support member’s aggression against anyone. My bet is that Armenia has a chance to get Russian help only after its people change the government and kick out all Soros-linked scum. It may be too late already.

    Replies: @Astuteobservor II

    There is nothing wrong with Russia waiting till the collapsed of the current Armenian govt before going in to save the day. If it comes to that point.

  149. @Mr. Hack
    @AltanBakshi

    It's too bad that he wasn't similarly inclined towards the gathering of the Ukrainian people and ended up being responsible for deaths of millions of Ukrainians through starvation.

    Replies: @Ano4

    Stalin was quite impartial when it come up to starving people. He starved Russians and other populations of USSR as well as Ukrainians.

    Although I certainly understand that Ukrainian nationalists only care about Ukrainian victims. True compassion begins at home…

    🙂

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Ano4

    It's certainly true that there were famines before the 1930's in other parts of the Soviet Union that included other ethnicities than just Ukrainians, but none as widespread and devastating as the one experienced by Ukrainians in Ukraine during 1930-1933 (holodomor). Besides the sheer numbers involved of victims of starvation (4-6M), the fact that an enormous simultaneous extermination of Ukraine's intelligentsia was taking place concurrently, indicates that Stalin's actions in Ukraine were more than just the pacification of recalcitrant peasants that were resisting collectivization. Also, I'm not aware of any other famine that took place within the Soviet Union where a blockade was set up on the border between Russia and other republics as there was with Ukraine where starving Ukrainian peasants were captured and turned back to the starvation back at home. Apparently, at the very same time that the agricultural regions of the Russian heartland were not experiencing anything similar as regards food appropriation resulting in massive starvation. In Stalin's own words:


    If we do not immediately take charge of straightening out the situation in Ukraine, we could lose Ukraine. Bear in mind that Pilsudski never rests, his espionage capabilities in Ukraine are much stronger than Redens and Kosior realize. And remember too that, in the Ukrainian Communist Party (500 000 members, ha ha !), we find no few (no, no few!) rotten types, conscious and unconscious ‘petliurites’, as well as direct agents of Pilsudski. As soon as things get worse, these elements will lose no time in opening up a front within (and outside) the Party, against the Party. The worst of it is that the Ukrainian leaders are oblivious to these dangers (Khlevniuk, 2001: 273-274).
     
    It becomes apparent that in Stalin's mind the famine was just another tool to be used against the Ukrainian peasantry, the bulwark of the Ukrainian national idea:

    For Stalin, the Ukrainian peasant question was “in essence, a national question, the peasants constituting the principal force of the national movement” (Stalin, 1954: 71). By crushing the peasantry, one was breaking the most powerful national movement capable of opposing the process of the construction of the USSR. As the famine decimated the Ukrainian peasantry, the regime condemned the entire policy of Ukrainization underway since the early 1920s: The Ukrainian elites were rounded up and arrested.
     
    https://www.sciencespo.fr/mass-violence-war-massacre-resistance/fr/document/great-ukrainian-famine-1932-33.html

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

    , @Mr. Hack
    @Ano4

    It's certainly true that there were famines before the 1930's in other parts of the Soviet Union that included other ethnicities than just Ukrainians, but none as widespread and devastating as the one experienced by Ukrainians in Ukraine during 1930-1933 (holodomor). Besides the sheer numbers involved of victims of starvation (4-6M), the fact that an enormous simultaneous extermination of Ukraine's intelligentsia was taking place concurrently, indicates that Stalin's actions in Ukraine were more than just the pacifiation of recalcitrant peasants that were resisting collectivization. Also, I'm not aware of any other famine that took place within the Soviet Union where a blocaka was set up on the border between Russia and Ukraine where starving Ukrainian peasants were captured and turned back to the starvation back at home. Apparenly, at this bery same time the agricultural regions of the Russian heartland were not experiencing anything similar as regards food appropriation resulting in massive starvation. In Stalin's own words:


    If we do not immediately take charge of straightening out the situation in Ukraine, we could lose Ukraine. Bear in mind that Pilsudski never rests, his espionage capabilities in Ukraine are much stronger than Redens and Kosior realize. And remember too that, in the Ukrainian Communist Party (500 000 members, ha ha !), we find no few (no, no few!) rotten types, conscious and unconscious ‘petliurites’, as well as direct agents of Pilsudski. As soon as things get worse, these elements will lose no time in opening up a front within (and outside) the Party, against the Party. The worst of it is that the Ukrainian leaders are oblivious to these dangers (Khlevniuk, 2001: 273-274).
     
    It becomes aparent that in Stalin's mind the famine was just another tool to be used against the Ukrainian peasantry, the bulwark of the Ukrainian national idea:

    For Stalin, the Ukrainian peasant question was “in essence, a national question, the peasants constituting the principal force of the national movement” (Stalin, 1954: 71). By crushing the peasantry, one was breaking the most powerful national movement capable of opposing the process of the construction of the USSR. As the famine decimated the Ukrainian peasantry, the regime condemned the entire policy of Ukrainization underway since the early 1920s: The Ukrainian elites were rounded up and arrested.
     
    https://www.sciencespo.fr/mass-violence-war-massacre-resistance/fr/document/great-ukrainian-famine-1932-33.html
  150. @Kent Nationalist
    @reiner Tor


    Hitler didn’t lose because he openly stated such things (though in a long book, or before his immediate entourage only, so people didn’t care for it), he lost because his vision was pretty much impossible to implement.
     
    He lost because of a few contingencies in the war. A few tank divisions one way or another in August 1941, slightly different leadership in Britain and he might have won.

    Replies: @Ano4, @iffen, @Epigon

    Lol, no.

    Long story short – Germans timed their offensive on USSR very very well, extra Pz and Mot in Africa would only excerberate the logistical issues due to Malta, RN and RAF; German logistical tail to Moscow was unsustainable, and the hypothetical diversion of tanks towards Moscow instead of eliminating the Kiev salient could have been a total disaster. German success at sucker punches and the industrial/geopolitical reality meant that Germans got the best chance in 1941. In 1942, RKKA would have been an entirely different affair – for example, T-34 wouldn’t be in production anymore.

    • LOL: GazaPlanet
    • Replies: @Kent Nationalist
    @Epigon

    The sort of response one would expect from a 90IQ Balkanoid

    Replies: @Epigon

    , @AP
    @Epigon


    German success at sucker punches and the industrial/geopolitical reality meant that Germans got the best chance in 1941.
     
    There was a nice takedown of military "expert" Martyanov by Twinkie a few years ago, concerning World War II. Thanks to Unz search engine I found the discussion in about 5 seconds:

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/top-10-militaries-2015/#comment-1205938

    Essentially, Germany could still have turned things around even in early 1943 by just bleeding the Soviets dry through "elastic defense" as in Third Battle of Kharkov, if the generals were allowed to do what they wanted, without Hitler's interference. Stalin OTOH was smart enough to stop interfering eventually.
    , @reiner Tor
    @Epigon


    German logistical tail to Moscow was unsustainable
     
    That's questionable, since they lost a lot of time and used up their resources to destroy the Soviet grouping in Ukraine. This meant that when they resumed the attack in October, they had weaker forces at their disposal than they'd have had in late August, and also in October the rasputitsa stopped them for two weeks. Had they been able to continue, the Soviets would've had basically no forces to defend Moscow. Since even as it was, they managed to reach the outskirts of Moscow, capturing or at least encircling Moscow would've certainly happened. We don't know what would've happened afterwards.

    In 1942, RKKA would have been an entirely different affair
     
    The German MIC was growing faster at the time than the Soviet one (the Soviets had already prematurely geared their economy to mass production of weapons, which were getting obsolete very quickly, while the Germans were arguably too late in ramping up production, and in 1940-42 were investing too much in new production capacity), so it's not so sure. Again, it's a "we don't know" situation.

    sucker punches
     
    It's not really a sucker punch, if the enemy has months to prepare. France had been in a state of war with Germany for over half a year, by the time Germany attacked, and the USSR should've known at least two months before Barbarossa about the attack. (Warsaw city traffic was almost completely shut down for over a week in April, 1941, because so many German military columns were marching through the city... The USSR had a consulate there, so if they didn't know about it, it certainly wasn't because of the clever German deception measures. By the way the USSR started partial mobilization already that time.)

    The fact is, the German army was tactically better than any other army at the time, or ever since. It was at the top of its game in June, 1941, after which it started to deteriorate due to slowly losing its most experienced officers and NCOs.

    ------

    However, at the big picture, you are probably correct. (With the above caveats that we really don't know for sure, just have a high probability of it being true.) Probably Germany would've lost, no matter what.

    And even if Germany could've won, they'd have had to do literally everything correct, with very little to no room for errors.

    Replies: @Epigon

    , @GazaPlanet
    @Epigon

    If the Germans had gotten past the Urals, their forces would be surrounded and isolated in Siberia. Most importantly, Budenny's armies from Kiev would have cut all lines of communications to Agartha.

    Replies: @AP

  151. @Epigon
    @Kent Nationalist

    Lol, no.

    Long story short - Germans timed their offensive on USSR very very well, extra Pz and Mot in Africa would only excerberate the logistical issues due to Malta, RN and RAF; German logistical tail to Moscow was unsustainable, and the hypothetical diversion of tanks towards Moscow instead of eliminating the Kiev salient could have been a total disaster. German success at sucker punches and the industrial/geopolitical reality meant that Germans got the best chance in 1941. In 1942, RKKA would have been an entirely different affair - for example, T-34 wouldn’t be in production anymore.

    Replies: @Kent Nationalist, @AP, @reiner Tor, @GazaPlanet

    The sort of response one would expect from a 90IQ Balkanoid

    • Replies: @Epigon
    @Kent Nationalist

    That’s rich coming from a person who unironically wrote that a couple of Pz.Div. could alter the outcome of the war.

    Let me guess - you also think North Africa was a major theatre of war?

    Replies: @Kent Nationalist

  152. @Kent Nationalist
    @iffen

    I disagree. War was too unpopular until the annexation of Czechoslovakia

    Replies: @iffen

    War was too unpopular

    War is unpopular amongst the English, Scots, Irish and their descendants? What planet are you from?

    • Agree: Daniel Chieh
  153. @Kent Nationalist
    @Epigon

    The sort of response one would expect from a 90IQ Balkanoid

    Replies: @Epigon

    That’s rich coming from a person who unironically wrote that a couple of Pz.Div. could alter the outcome of the war.

    Let me guess – you also think North Africa was a major theatre of war?

    • Replies: @Kent Nationalist
    @Epigon

    https://de.metapedia.org/m/images/a/a2/Sichelschnitt.jpg

  154. @Europe Europa
    The BBC's report on the 10 o clock News last night was surprising pro-Armenian, with the reporter sheltering from Azeri bombs with ethnic Armenian civilians in Stepanakert.

    Their take was clearly that they see the Azeris as ruthless butchers. I find this surprising because I would have expected the BBC to be more pro-Azeri, because they're Muslim and also because their big ally is Turkey, which is a NATO country.

    Replies: @Spisarevski, @Mikhail

    The BBC’s report on the 10 o clock News last night was surprising pro-Armenian, with the reporter sheltering from Azeri bombs with ethnic Armenian civilians in Stepanakert.

    Just came to this thread to post that the Russian state TV news are surprisingly pro-Azerbaijan.

    Starting from the title, “Conflict in Nagorno-Karabach: Casualties among Azeri civilian population are increasing”.

    I found it funny that both the Armenian Prime Minister and the Azerbaijan President gave short interviews to a Russian political talk show (“60 minutes”) in Russian. The Azeri president message was clearly tailored to Russian audience, said how the Soros-sponsored color revolution made the Armenians not willing to negotiate, etc. Pashinyan’s statement was unfocused and he looked nervous.

    Then the video shows how people volunteer en masse in Azerbaijan to be drafted, and then a few clips of Russian journalists asking questions to Azeri officials, basically spreading their propaganda unchallenged.

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @Spisarevski


    The Azeri president message was clearly tailored to Russian audience, said how the Soros-sponsored color revolution made the Armenians not willing to negotiate, etc. Pashinyan’s statement was unfocused and he looked nervous.
     
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/nintchdbpict000270816928.jpg

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/NINTCHDBPICT000491674105.jpg

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7053097/amp/Vladimir-Putins-rumoured-lover-36-gives-birth-twins-guarded-clinic-Russian-reports-claim.html

    Pashinian doesn't stand a chance against the Kabaeva's discreet Azeri charm....

    Replies: @AnonFromTN, @Mikhail

  155. @Spisarevski
    @Europe Europa


    The BBC’s report on the 10 o clock News last night was surprising pro-Armenian, with the reporter sheltering from Azeri bombs with ethnic Armenian civilians in Stepanakert.
     
    Just came to this thread to post that the Russian state TV news are surprisingly pro-Azerbaijan.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZAS4TtAsrw

    Starting from the title, "Conflict in Nagorno-Karabach: Casualties among Azeri civilian population are increasing".

    I found it funny that both the Armenian Prime Minister and the Azerbaijan President gave short interviews to a Russian political talk show ("60 minutes") in Russian. The Azeri president message was clearly tailored to Russian audience, said how the Soros-sponsored color revolution made the Armenians not willing to negotiate, etc. Pashinyan's statement was unfocused and he looked nervous.

    Then the video shows how people volunteer en masse in Azerbaijan to be drafted, and then a few clips of Russian journalists asking questions to Azeri officials, basically spreading their propaganda unchallenged.

    Replies: @Ano4

    The Azeri president message was clearly tailored to Russian audience, said how the Soros-sponsored color revolution made the Armenians not willing to negotiate, etc. Pashinyan’s statement was unfocused and he looked nervous.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7053097/amp/Vladimir-Putins-rumoured-lover-36-gives-birth-twins-guarded-clinic-Russian-reports-claim.html

    Pashinian doesn’t stand a chance against the Kabaeva’s discreet Azeri charm….

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    @Ano4

    You don’t need any alleged female angle to understand Putin’s stance. Only a complete fool would put third-rate Soros product like Pashinian over wily Azeri president Aliyev. Not to mention that even Armenia did not officially recognize Karabakh, so legally speaking nobody disputes that it belongs to Azerbaijan.

    Replies: @Ano4

    , @Mikhail
    @Ano4

    According to English Wiki, Kabaeva was born in Uzbekistan and is of Tatar and Russian backgrounds.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alina_Kabaeva

    Replies: @Ano4

  156. @Ano4
    @Spisarevski


    The Azeri president message was clearly tailored to Russian audience, said how the Soros-sponsored color revolution made the Armenians not willing to negotiate, etc. Pashinyan’s statement was unfocused and he looked nervous.
     
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/nintchdbpict000270816928.jpg

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/NINTCHDBPICT000491674105.jpg

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7053097/amp/Vladimir-Putins-rumoured-lover-36-gives-birth-twins-guarded-clinic-Russian-reports-claim.html

    Pashinian doesn't stand a chance against the Kabaeva's discreet Azeri charm....

    Replies: @AnonFromTN, @Mikhail

    You don’t need any alleged female angle to understand Putin’s stance. Only a complete fool would put third-rate Soros product like Pashinian over wily Azeri president Aliyev. Not to mention that even Armenia did not officially recognize Karabakh, so legally speaking nobody disputes that it belongs to Azerbaijan.

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @AnonFromTN

    https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/humour

    OTOH:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_Esther_(painting)

  157. @gT
    @AltanBakshi

    When Turkey became a Republic in the 1920's, it was a crypto Jew, Mustafa Kemal later named Ataturk, who was in charge. The newly formed communist Russia (lots of Jews in charge) financed Mustafa to the hilt enabling him to kick out the Greeks, deal with the Armenians etc. Jews don't like Armenians because they are too good at business, never knew that Armenian land was even given to Turkey.

    Replies: @Almost Missouri

    Jews don’t like Armenians because they are too good at business

    Boil five Russians, get a Jew.
    Boil five Jews, get an Armenian.

    —Armenian folk saying

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Almost Missouri

    Jews are one of the differences of Armenia, from Georgia and Azerbaijan. Armenian Jews are some small and quiet nationality, while the Georgian and Azerbaijani Jews are quite dominant diaspora nationalities.

    For example, in Russia, despite all the complaints we hear everywhere on the internet about Armenian diaspora's domination and nepotism - we can see that there are more Azerbaijani Jewish billionaires, than Armenian billionaires (even if you included half-Armenian people like Magnit owner Galitsky as Armenian). Azerbaijani Jewish businessmen probably control more capital in Russia, than all the Armenians, and even more do Azerbaijani Muslim oligarch (oligarchs like Alekperov or Agalarov).

    -

    Although it's another question how much Aliyev has influence of the Azerbaijani origin oligarchs in Russia, Most will be more dependent on, or part of Russian government's state capacity.

    Replies: @Ano4

  158. @AnonFromTN
    @Ano4

    You don’t need any alleged female angle to understand Putin’s stance. Only a complete fool would put third-rate Soros product like Pashinian over wily Azeri president Aliyev. Not to mention that even Armenia did not officially recognize Karabakh, so legally speaking nobody disputes that it belongs to Azerbaijan.

    Replies: @Ano4

  159. @reiner Tor
    Apparently the Azeris are winning. I agree that the Sorosite prime minister is bad, but I like the idea of a Turkish victory even less. (Not to mention Azerbaijan, which based on this Hajibala Abutalybov seems to be a nation of Borats.)

    Replies: @AP

    Turkey has been a bad influence upon the world and has done much evil, but Azerbaijan is okay. Azeris are Shiites rather than Sunnis and have maintained some pre-Islamic Persian traditions such as the old New Years’ celebrations. They even maintained their ancient fire temple, after losing their own Zoroastrian faith, allowing it to be a site of pilgrimage for visitors from India for many centuries. Compare this to what was done to the Hagia Sophia by the Turks.

    Azeris were an integral part of the Persian world; this, and their later incorporation into the Russian world have been very good influences upon them. They are probably among the best of the Muslim or Turkic peoples. This pan-Turkism is clever for Azeris to exploit, and they may even believe it themselves, but they are better than most of the Turks. When this war settles down I encourage you to visit Baku, it’s a very nice place with hospitable people (as long as you are not an Armenian).

    • LOL: iffen
    • Replies: @Ano4
    @AP

    This might explain the difference with the other local Muslim populations.:


    A few Mazdakites survived and settled in remote areas. Small pockets of Mazdakite societies are said to have survived for centuries after the Muslim conquest of Persia. Their doctrines probably mixed with radical currents of Shia Islam, influencing them and giving rise to later powerful revolutionary-religious movements in the region. The cult of al-Muqanna‘, who claimed to be the incarnation of God and had followers among the Mubaiyyidah sect of Zoroastrianism and even some Turks, upheld the laws and institutes of Mazdak.[15] In the 9th century, the Khurramites, an egalitarian religious sect possibly originating from Mazdakism, led a revolt under the leadership of Babak Khorramdin against the Abbasid Caliphate and successfully defended large territories against the Caliphate's forces for some twenty years.
     
    The filiation would be as follows:

    1) Mazdakite Persians
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazdak

    2) Khurramites Persians and Turks
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khurramites

    3) Qizilbash Alevi Turks
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qizilbash

    The progressive acculturation of the local populations towards Turkish language and customs having accelerated after the disastrous centuries of Mongol domination and Mongol vs Turk warring in this area.
    , @AnonFromTN
    @AP


    visit Baku, it’s a very nice place with hospitable people (as long as you are not an Armenian).
     
    For those who never lived I the USSR, official Soviet propaganda always promoted “friendship of the peoples”. Here is a joke about it from late Soviet period:

    What is friendship of the peoples, Azerbaijani style? It’s when Azeris, Russians, Ukrainians, Jews, Georgians, and everybody else come together and kill accursed Armenians.

    As a matter of fact, I was a witness of that attitude. When I visited Baku in 1989 (still Soviet period, before large-scale anti-Armenian pogroms), our tourist guide told us that you cannot tell Azeris and Armenians apart by their looks, but there is a way: if the person is good, it’s an Azeri, if the person is bad, it’s an Armenian.

    I strongly suspect their attitude did not change.

    Replies: @Ano4

    , @reiner Tor
    @AP

    I have seen a few weird pictures of Azeris in recent days (some brown skinned muscleless unibrow guys training in the water, and similar), their beheading of Armenian soldiers (and posting it on social media), and similar things, though the funniest is certainly the mayor telling the Germans that "you, Nazis, must understand why we want to get rid of the Armenians, just like you did with the Jews," it's certainly a real life Borat moment.

    But yeah, they might be way better than other Muslims. Still they behead corpses (?), which is not very nice. (Granted, probably Armenians commit atrocities, too.)

    Replies: @Dmitry

  160. @Epigon
    @Kent Nationalist

    Lol, no.

    Long story short - Germans timed their offensive on USSR very very well, extra Pz and Mot in Africa would only excerberate the logistical issues due to Malta, RN and RAF; German logistical tail to Moscow was unsustainable, and the hypothetical diversion of tanks towards Moscow instead of eliminating the Kiev salient could have been a total disaster. German success at sucker punches and the industrial/geopolitical reality meant that Germans got the best chance in 1941. In 1942, RKKA would have been an entirely different affair - for example, T-34 wouldn’t be in production anymore.

    Replies: @Kent Nationalist, @AP, @reiner Tor, @GazaPlanet

    German success at sucker punches and the industrial/geopolitical reality meant that Germans got the best chance in 1941.

    There was a nice takedown of military “expert” Martyanov by Twinkie a few years ago, concerning World War II. Thanks to Unz search engine I found the discussion in about 5 seconds:

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/top-10-militaries-2015/#comment-1205938

    Essentially, Germany could still have turned things around even in early 1943 by just bleeding the Soviets dry through “elastic defense” as in Third Battle of Kharkov, if the generals were allowed to do what they wanted, without Hitler’s interference. Stalin OTOH was smart enough to stop interfering eventually.

  161. @AP
    @reiner Tor

    Turkey has been a bad influence upon the world and has done much evil, but Azerbaijan is okay. Azeris are Shiites rather than Sunnis and have maintained some pre-Islamic Persian traditions such as the old New Years' celebrations. They even maintained their ancient fire temple, after losing their own Zoroastrian faith, allowing it to be a site of pilgrimage for visitors from India for many centuries. Compare this to what was done to the Hagia Sophia by the Turks.

    Azeris were an integral part of the Persian world; this, and their later incorporation into the Russian world have been very good influences upon them. They are probably among the best of the Muslim or Turkic peoples. This pan-Turkism is clever for Azeris to exploit, and they may even believe it themselves, but they are better than most of the Turks. When this war settles down I encourage you to visit Baku, it's a very nice place with hospitable people (as long as you are not an Armenian).

    Replies: @Ano4, @AnonFromTN, @reiner Tor

    This might explain the difference with the other local Muslim populations.:

    A few Mazdakites survived and settled in remote areas. Small pockets of Mazdakite societies are said to have survived for centuries after the Muslim conquest of Persia. Their doctrines probably mixed with radical currents of Shia Islam, influencing them and giving rise to later powerful revolutionary-religious movements in the region. The cult of al-Muqanna‘, who claimed to be the incarnation of God and had followers among the Mubaiyyidah sect of Zoroastrianism and even some Turks, upheld the laws and institutes of Mazdak.[15] In the 9th century, the Khurramites, an egalitarian religious sect possibly originating from Mazdakism, led a revolt under the leadership of Babak Khorramdin against the Abbasid Caliphate and successfully defended large territories against the Caliphate’s forces for some twenty years.

    The filiation would be as follows:

    1) Mazdakite Persians
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazdak

    2) Khurramites Persians and Turks
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khurramites

    3) Qizilbash Alevi Turks
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qizilbash

    The progressive acculturation of the local populations towards Turkish language and customs having accelerated after the disastrous centuries of Mongol domination and Mongol vs Turk warring in this area.

    • Thanks: AP
  162. @AP
    @reiner Tor

    Turkey has been a bad influence upon the world and has done much evil, but Azerbaijan is okay. Azeris are Shiites rather than Sunnis and have maintained some pre-Islamic Persian traditions such as the old New Years' celebrations. They even maintained their ancient fire temple, after losing their own Zoroastrian faith, allowing it to be a site of pilgrimage for visitors from India for many centuries. Compare this to what was done to the Hagia Sophia by the Turks.

    Azeris were an integral part of the Persian world; this, and their later incorporation into the Russian world have been very good influences upon them. They are probably among the best of the Muslim or Turkic peoples. This pan-Turkism is clever for Azeris to exploit, and they may even believe it themselves, but they are better than most of the Turks. When this war settles down I encourage you to visit Baku, it's a very nice place with hospitable people (as long as you are not an Armenian).

    Replies: @Ano4, @AnonFromTN, @reiner Tor

    visit Baku, it’s a very nice place with hospitable people (as long as you are not an Armenian).

    For those who never lived I the USSR, official Soviet propaganda always promoted “friendship of the peoples”. Here is a joke about it from late Soviet period:

    What is friendship of the peoples, Azerbaijani style? It’s when Azeris, Russians, Ukrainians, Jews, Georgians, and everybody else come together and kill accursed Armenians.

    As a matter of fact, I was a witness of that attitude. When I visited Baku in 1989 (still Soviet period, before large-scale anti-Armenian pogroms), our tourist guide told us that you cannot tell Azeris and Armenians apart by their looks, but there is a way: if the person is good, it’s an Azeri, if the person is bad, it’s an Armenian.

    I strongly suspect their attitude did not change.

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @AnonFromTN

    In 1989 I spoke to a Caucasus Jewish girl from Baku who studied in Leningrad where I was spending my summer vacations. The discussion happened after the Baku and Sumgayit anti-Armenian pogroms and I of course asked her what she thought of it all.

    I was very shocked to hear her saying that Armenians had it coming through their nepotism and superiority complex towards the other ethnic groups She told me that everybody in Baku is fed up with the Armenians. I was really surprised, because I thought that Azeri were the savages, the murderous psychopaths and Armenians were the victims.

    After the Perestroika, a lot of Azeris came to Moscow. Azeri mafia took control of many markets, I think Caucasus Jews played an important leading role among them. There was violence directed against ethnic Russians who did not want to fall in line with the Azeri lording over them.

    One story I remember from 1992, some Ryazan glubinka muzhiks brought a big truck of potatoes from their Kolkhoz to sell in Moscow. In the market the Azeri ordered the Russians to sell them the lot wholesale. The Russians refused and started selling directly from the truck. During the night, while the Russian guys slept in the truck's cab, the Azeri just threw a grenade under the truck killing the Russians on site. There were also rapes by Azeri, including rapes of children.

    That's why I say that I wish them both good luck sorting it out in Karabakh...

    Replies: @AnonFromTN, @AP

  163. @reiner Tor
    @AnonFromTN


    Karabakh is a goner. (...) Armenia would be a goner, too.
     
    That’d be sad. Armenians are arguably a real nation, with some important cultural contributions to the world. While Azeris... they resemble a nation of Borats. Okay, their nationalistic military videos are cool.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN, @Dmitry

    If I recall, one of the jokes of that film is that Borat is from Kazakhstan, he hates Uzbekistan, and he views life in terms of a conflict between the two postsoviet countries, which is the film’s audience is supposed to be unable to distinguish between.

    For most of the film, Caucasian countries would have been a more accurate location for the character Borat, rather than the Central Asian countries. Except the bride kidnapping ending of the film, which was indeed very Central Asian (it is mostly Central Asian tradition, although it is in the Caucasus as well).

    If you re-wrote the famous musical West Side Story, in a Russian city instead of New York, and therefore with a plausible story of the Armenian immigrant falling in love with the Azerbaijani immigrant woman – one of the main problems would be that the audience will be unable to distinguish between the lovers’ nationalities.

    They could insert some songs about “my nationality’s family names end with -an, while your nationality’s family names end with -ev “. Or such song about “We don’t go to church, while you don’t go to mosque”.

    And try to avoid too much songs about “my grandparents lives in building from Khrushchev’s time, while your grandparents live in building built by Brezhnev” or “we both eat dolma”.

    But it’s another reason for the wider world to be uninterested in the war, as how would the international audience choose their favourite side? – either you like all the Caucasian nationalities and their local culture, or you don’t like it.

    • Agree: Ano4
    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Dmitry


    or “we both eat dolma”.
     
    I expect academics write articles about the "dolma war" between Armenia and Azerbaijan - if people were not too bored from the "hummus war" between Lebanon and Israel.
  164. @Dmitry
    @reiner Tor

    If I recall, one of the jokes of that film is that Borat is from Kazakhstan, he hates Uzbekistan, and he views life in terms of a conflict between the two postsoviet countries, which is the film's audience is supposed to be unable to distinguish between.

    For most of the film, Caucasian countries would have been a more accurate location for the character Borat, rather than the Central Asian countries. Except the bride kidnapping ending of the film, which was indeed very Central Asian (it is mostly Central Asian tradition, although it is in the Caucasus as well).

    -

    If you re-wrote the famous musical West Side Story, in a Russian city instead of New York, and therefore with a plausible story of the Armenian immigrant falling in love with the Azerbaijani immigrant woman - one of the main problems would be that the audience will be unable to distinguish between the lovers' nationalities.

    They could insert some songs about "my nationality's family names end with -an, while your nationality's family names end with -ev ". Or such song about "We don't go to church, while you don't go to mosque".

    And try to avoid too much songs about "my grandparents lives in building from Khrushchev's time, while your grandparents live in building built by Brezhnev" or "we both eat dolma".

    But it's another reason for the wider world to be uninterested in the war, as how would the international audience choose their favourite side? - either you like all the Caucasian nationalities and their local culture, or you don't like it.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    or “we both eat dolma”.

    I expect academics write articles about the “dolma war” between Armenia and Azerbaijan – if people were not too bored from the “hummus war” between Lebanon and Israel.

    • LOL: Ano4, JL
  165. @Ano4
    @AltanBakshi


    So a traitor is okay as long as he is a Russian? All SS-men of Soviet Union were traitors and enemies of the people
     
    You might have been a traitor to the Soviets without being a traitor to the Russian people.

    The core of Krasnow's Cossacks were mainly White Russian emigrants. The guy I referred to in my comment had his grandfather living in Serbia after evacuation from Crimea during the Civil War. Just like Krasnow and Shkuro he was a White Guard officer who gladly joined the Nazi to kill the Commie.

    https://weaponsandwarfare.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/6a4cb-kaz-3.jpg

    After the terrible things that Red Guard and (mainly) Jewish commissars did in the Kuban region, one might easily understand why Cossacks (including the Kalmyk) itched at setting scores with the Soviets.

    Jewish commissars of course also had scores to settle with the Cossacks who were the equivalent of the anti-riot police in the Tzar times and were also known for their pogroms during the Civil War.

    I understand the motivation of both parties.

    BTW Krasnow's son kept setting scores in Chile, where he was a counterintelligence officer under Pinochet.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miguel_Krassnoff

    An eye for an eye etc.

    If one reads Krasnow's book " From Double Headed Eagle to the Red Banner ", one understands perfectly what the personage he was.

    https://www.amazon.ca/Double-Headed-Eagle-Red-Flag-1894-1921/dp/5519450420

    I actually have no trouble understanding why Stalin and Hitler did what they did. All sentient beings act according to their perception of right and wrong, and all of them are of course subjective and misguided to some extent.

    Including myself...

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @Mikhail

    Jewish commissars of course also had scores to settle with the Cossacks who were the equivalent of the anti-riot police in the Tzar times and were also known for their pogroms during the Civil War.

    Some of these were provoked by anti-government elements which included instances of Cossacks being sent in to stop such action. The pogroms served as international trouble for the Russian government. Much of that sort of violence was societal, as opposed to something ordered from the top – which isn’t to say that there were some in government who were okay with that manner.

    Kind of reminded of US situations, involving the issue of violence and dark complexioned people.

  166. @AnonFromTN
    @Ano4


    Russia has officially replied that Russian peacekeepers can only be deployed if asked by both Armenian and Azeri governments.
     
    Which is a logical extension of Russian policy of neutrality and non-interference. Proves yet again that Aliyev’s calculations were correct. If he were just a bit more patient and waited until Armenia formally withdraws from ODKB treaty (essentially Russian obligation to protect other members), he could have leveled the whole Armenia in cooperation with Erdogan. Then the fate of Armenians would be exactly the same as of those who had the misfortune to be in Turkey in the early twentieth century or in Azerbaijan in the late twentieth century. The Empire and its vassals would raise a stink but won’t lift a finger to help. History has shown that only Russia can protect Armenia. So, Pashinian’s policy of moving the country away from its alliance with Russia shows that he is not just Soros-linked scum, but also an idiot (always assuming that he cares about Armenia, which might be a wrong assumption).

    Replies: @Mikhail, @Mikhail

    Who appears more astute between Aliyev and Pashinyan?

    Looks like Padhinyan might have to either divert from a Sorosian outlook or get replaced. The fact that he has gone against pro-Russian folks in Armenia indicates that not all Armenians are gah-gah over him.

  167. Watching those drone strike videos, it looks like if you are moving, it minimizes chances of a direct hit. Stationary vehicles are sitting ducks however.

    I see a bright future for some innovative plastics and rubber company. For about $100 in materials you can probably make a good enough looking mock up inflatable tank. Throw in another $100 to install a barbecue pit with some coals to simulate thermal signature if that’s what the drones are looking for. Serbs did something similar in their war against NATO back in the 90’s.

    It will be a cheap decoy that can be easily transported. Also, can be used to grill hot dogs, an important feature for an army in the field. Just look up in the sky before grabbing your meal.

  168. @AnonFromTN
    @Ano4


    Russia has officially replied that Russian peacekeepers can only be deployed if asked by both Armenian and Azeri governments.
     
    Which is a logical extension of Russian policy of neutrality and non-interference. Proves yet again that Aliyev’s calculations were correct. If he were just a bit more patient and waited until Armenia formally withdraws from ODKB treaty (essentially Russian obligation to protect other members), he could have leveled the whole Armenia in cooperation with Erdogan. Then the fate of Armenians would be exactly the same as of those who had the misfortune to be in Turkey in the early twentieth century or in Azerbaijan in the late twentieth century. The Empire and its vassals would raise a stink but won’t lift a finger to help. History has shown that only Russia can protect Armenia. So, Pashinian’s policy of moving the country away from its alliance with Russia shows that he is not just Soros-linked scum, but also an idiot (always assuming that he cares about Armenia, which might be a wrong assumption).

    Replies: @Mikhail, @Mikhail

    Who appears more astute between Aliyev and Pashinyan?

    Looks like Padhinyan might have to either divert from a Sorosian outlook or get replaced. The fact that he has gone against pro-Russian folks in Armenia indicates that not all Armenians are gah-gah over him.

  169. @Almost Missouri
    @gT


    Jews don’t like Armenians because they are too good at business
     
    Boil five Russians, get a Jew.
    Boil five Jews, get an Armenian.


    —Armenian folk saying

    Replies: @Dmitry

    Jews are one of the differences of Armenia, from Georgia and Azerbaijan. Armenian Jews are some small and quiet nationality, while the Georgian and Azerbaijani Jews are quite dominant diaspora nationalities.

    For example, in Russia, despite all the complaints we hear everywhere on the internet about Armenian diaspora’s domination and nepotism – we can see that there are more Azerbaijani Jewish billionaires, than Armenian billionaires (even if you included half-Armenian people like Magnit owner Galitsky as Armenian). Azerbaijani Jewish businessmen probably control more capital in Russia, than all the Armenians, and even more do Azerbaijani Muslim oligarch (oligarchs like Alekperov or Agalarov).

    Although it’s another question how much Aliyev has influence of the Azerbaijani origin oligarchs in Russia, Most will be more dependent on, or part of Russian government’s state capacity.

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @Dmitry

    I have never heard of specifically Armenian Jews. I actually thought that Gorski (Caucasus) Jews were all the same across the region.

    It is true that some Gorski Jews from Azerbaijan became very wealthy in Russia after the fall of the Soviet Union. Armenians are more present among the intelligentsia, the liberal professions and the higher ranks of the administration.

    Both diasporas have their own organized criminal circles. Although both mafias pale in comparison to the Georgians or Chechens.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Verymuchalive

  170. @AnonFromTN
    @AP


    visit Baku, it’s a very nice place with hospitable people (as long as you are not an Armenian).
     
    For those who never lived I the USSR, official Soviet propaganda always promoted “friendship of the peoples”. Here is a joke about it from late Soviet period:

    What is friendship of the peoples, Azerbaijani style? It’s when Azeris, Russians, Ukrainians, Jews, Georgians, and everybody else come together and kill accursed Armenians.

    As a matter of fact, I was a witness of that attitude. When I visited Baku in 1989 (still Soviet period, before large-scale anti-Armenian pogroms), our tourist guide told us that you cannot tell Azeris and Armenians apart by their looks, but there is a way: if the person is good, it’s an Azeri, if the person is bad, it’s an Armenian.

    I strongly suspect their attitude did not change.

    Replies: @Ano4

    In 1989 I spoke to a Caucasus Jewish girl from Baku who studied in Leningrad where I was spending my summer vacations. The discussion happened after the Baku and Sumgayit anti-Armenian pogroms and I of course asked her what she thought of it all.

    [MORE]

    I was very shocked to hear her saying that Armenians had it coming through their nepotism and superiority complex towards the other ethnic groups She told me that everybody in Baku is fed up with the Armenians. I was really surprised, because I thought that Azeri were the savages, the murderous psychopaths and Armenians were the victims.

    After the Perestroika, a lot of Azeris came to Moscow. Azeri mafia took control of many markets, I think Caucasus Jews played an important leading role among them. There was violence directed against ethnic Russians who did not want to fall in line with the Azeri lording over them.

    One story I remember from 1992, some Ryazan glubinka muzhiks brought a big truck of potatoes from their Kolkhoz to sell in Moscow. In the market the Azeri ordered the Russians to sell them the lot wholesale. The Russians refused and started selling directly from the truck. During the night, while the Russian guys slept in the truck’s cab, the Azeri just threw a grenade under the truck killing the Russians on site. There were also rapes by Azeri, including rapes of children.

    That’s why I say that I wish them both good luck sorting it out in Karabakh…

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    @Ano4


    That’s why I say that I wish them both good luck sorting it out in Karabakh…
     
    That reminds me of the episode when one Syrian terrorist group blew up some leaders of another. Russians responded with a joke: “we sincerely wish continuing success to both teams”.

    Personally, I know only three Armenians and three Azeris. Two Armenians were my classmates at Moscow State. One is a Moscow Armenian, I am not even sure he speaks the language. He was a pretty nice highly intelligent guy. He still works in research, spends half his time in Moscow and the other half in Germany, publishes interesting papers (not exactly my field, he deals with evolution, but that makes it interesting to me). The other used to be a pretty girl, now she is an Assistant Professor in Boston. The third one I met in the US and collaborated with him on an evolution-related project. I am not sure he speaks Armenian: his wife is Russian, and his Russian is perfect. All three Azeris I know are from Azerbaijan, they were graduate students in my Institute in Moscow. One always was and still is a hard-working honest guy, now a Research Instructor (i.e., glorified post-doc) in the lab of my friend in Iowa. The other two are pretty flaky characters, now in California. Both dropped –ov and –ev from their family names, which tells me more than I want to know about them.

    Replies: @Ano4

    , @AP
    @Ano4

    After having become familiar with Azeris and their activities in Moscow, I was shocked at how orderly, clean, safe and decent Azerbaijan itself was. I was there in 2017; I wonder how bad it had been in the 90s. Maybe Aliyev kept his house in order and the scum left for Russia?

    Replies: @Ano4, @Mr. XYZ, @Dmitry, @AltanBakshi

  171. @Dmitry
    @Almost Missouri

    Jews are one of the differences of Armenia, from Georgia and Azerbaijan. Armenian Jews are some small and quiet nationality, while the Georgian and Azerbaijani Jews are quite dominant diaspora nationalities.

    For example, in Russia, despite all the complaints we hear everywhere on the internet about Armenian diaspora's domination and nepotism - we can see that there are more Azerbaijani Jewish billionaires, than Armenian billionaires (even if you included half-Armenian people like Magnit owner Galitsky as Armenian). Azerbaijani Jewish businessmen probably control more capital in Russia, than all the Armenians, and even more do Azerbaijani Muslim oligarch (oligarchs like Alekperov or Agalarov).

    -

    Although it's another question how much Aliyev has influence of the Azerbaijani origin oligarchs in Russia, Most will be more dependent on, or part of Russian government's state capacity.

    Replies: @Ano4

    I have never heard of specifically Armenian Jews. I actually thought that Gorski (Caucasus) Jews were all the same across the region.

    It is true that some Gorski Jews from Azerbaijan became very wealthy in Russia after the fall of the Soviet Union. Armenians are more present among the intelligentsia, the liberal professions and the higher ranks of the administration.

    Both diasporas have their own organized criminal circles. Although both mafias pale in comparison to the Georgians or Chechens.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Ano4

    The Jews there include different nationalities, with different languages. Mountain Jews speak a kind of Iranian language and originate from Ancient Southern Iran.

    Georgian Jews speak Georgian language; Armenian Jews speak Armenian language.

    -

    Also this is not a representative sample or very scientific. But my impression if you look at the famous caucasians in Israel (for example Likud politicians) they seem like stereotype faces of the country of origin, rather than being from the same nationality as each other.

    Likud Georgian Jew politician Hotovely - looks like stereotype Georgian long face.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAtRPwRD74g


    Likud Mountain Jew politician - Ze'ev Elkin. (looks like a stereotype of Southern Iranian nationality perhaps, even Pakistani?).
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llo3IF8QDvo

    , @Verymuchalive
    @Ano4


    There are about 300–500[1] Jews presently living in Armenia, mainly in the capital Yerevan.[1] They are mostly of Ashkenazi origin, while some are Mizrahi and Georgian Jews.
     
    Dmitry is havering. Jews didn't start to appear in Armenia until the C19th and later. They were few in number.

    In 1828, the Russo-Persian War came to an end and Eastern Armenia (currently the Republic of Armenia) was annexed to the Russian Empire with the Treaty of Turkmenchai. Polish and Iranian Jews began arriving,

    There were certainly Jews in Armenia in ancient times. Their descendants were assimilated by the Middle Ages. Armenia is one of those countries where this has happened. Any Jews present today are very few in number and the result of recent immigration.They are completely insignificant.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Armenia

  172. or Agalarov).

    Mother of the oligarch Aras Agalarov’s children was Jewish. So through his singer son Emin (https://www.instagram.com/eminofficial), who was husband and had children with President Aliyev’s daughter – two of President Aliyev’s grandchildren are “Jewish to the second generation” (in Israeli law). https://avderin.livejournal.com/914015.html

    So from Israeli immigration law, President Aliyev’s grandchildren have a Jewish father, so should be able to receive an Israeli citizenship if they wanted to apply for it. (Although currently this family is just having Azerbaijani and Russian citizenship).

  173. @Ano4
    @AnonFromTN

    In 1989 I spoke to a Caucasus Jewish girl from Baku who studied in Leningrad where I was spending my summer vacations. The discussion happened after the Baku and Sumgayit anti-Armenian pogroms and I of course asked her what she thought of it all.

    I was very shocked to hear her saying that Armenians had it coming through their nepotism and superiority complex towards the other ethnic groups She told me that everybody in Baku is fed up with the Armenians. I was really surprised, because I thought that Azeri were the savages, the murderous psychopaths and Armenians were the victims.

    After the Perestroika, a lot of Azeris came to Moscow. Azeri mafia took control of many markets, I think Caucasus Jews played an important leading role among them. There was violence directed against ethnic Russians who did not want to fall in line with the Azeri lording over them.

    One story I remember from 1992, some Ryazan glubinka muzhiks brought a big truck of potatoes from their Kolkhoz to sell in Moscow. In the market the Azeri ordered the Russians to sell them the lot wholesale. The Russians refused and started selling directly from the truck. During the night, while the Russian guys slept in the truck's cab, the Azeri just threw a grenade under the truck killing the Russians on site. There were also rapes by Azeri, including rapes of children.

    That's why I say that I wish them both good luck sorting it out in Karabakh...

    Replies: @AnonFromTN, @AP

    That’s why I say that I wish them both good luck sorting it out in Karabakh…

    That reminds me of the episode when one Syrian terrorist group blew up some leaders of another. Russians responded with a joke: “we sincerely wish continuing success to both teams”.

    Personally, I know only three Armenians and three Azeris. Two Armenians were my classmates at Moscow State. One is a Moscow Armenian, I am not even sure he speaks the language. He was a pretty nice highly intelligent guy. He still works in research, spends half his time in Moscow and the other half in Germany, publishes interesting papers (not exactly my field, he deals with evolution, but that makes it interesting to me). The other used to be a pretty girl, now she is an Assistant Professor in Boston. The third one I met in the US and collaborated with him on an evolution-related project. I am not sure he speaks Armenian: his wife is Russian, and his Russian is perfect. All three Azeris I know are from Azerbaijan, they were graduate students in my Institute in Moscow. One always was and still is a hard-working honest guy, now a Research Instructor (i.e., glorified post-doc) in the lab of my friend in Iowa. The other two are pretty flaky characters, now in California. Both dropped –ov and –ev from their family names, which tells me more than I want to know about them.

    • Thanks: Blinky Bill
    • Replies: @Ano4
    @AnonFromTN

    The completely Russified intellectual types aren't the problem, they are certainly nicer to be around than some Russian gopnik (a nod and a wink to our friend AltanBakshi).

    Although Geydar Dzhemal and Sergei Kurginian are an exception to the statement above. I believe that both had a rather destructive influence on Russian society, despite being highly intelligent and deeply Russified persons. Both probably understood that they worked against Russian interests, both pretended otherwise...

  174. @Ano4
    @AnonFromTN

    In 1989 I spoke to a Caucasus Jewish girl from Baku who studied in Leningrad where I was spending my summer vacations. The discussion happened after the Baku and Sumgayit anti-Armenian pogroms and I of course asked her what she thought of it all.

    I was very shocked to hear her saying that Armenians had it coming through their nepotism and superiority complex towards the other ethnic groups She told me that everybody in Baku is fed up with the Armenians. I was really surprised, because I thought that Azeri were the savages, the murderous psychopaths and Armenians were the victims.

    After the Perestroika, a lot of Azeris came to Moscow. Azeri mafia took control of many markets, I think Caucasus Jews played an important leading role among them. There was violence directed against ethnic Russians who did not want to fall in line with the Azeri lording over them.

    One story I remember from 1992, some Ryazan glubinka muzhiks brought a big truck of potatoes from their Kolkhoz to sell in Moscow. In the market the Azeri ordered the Russians to sell them the lot wholesale. The Russians refused and started selling directly from the truck. During the night, while the Russian guys slept in the truck's cab, the Azeri just threw a grenade under the truck killing the Russians on site. There were also rapes by Azeri, including rapes of children.

    That's why I say that I wish them both good luck sorting it out in Karabakh...

    Replies: @AnonFromTN, @AP

    After having become familiar with Azeris and their activities in Moscow, I was shocked at how orderly, clean, safe and decent Azerbaijan itself was. I was there in 2017; I wonder how bad it had been in the 90s. Maybe Aliyev kept his house in order and the scum left for Russia?

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @AP

    I have also heard that Bsku greatly improved in the last decade. I have never been there. You might be correct that those who migrated to Moscow en masse after the fall of USSR were not the best representatives of their nation.

    , @Mr. XYZ
    @AP

    Or maybe Azeris are scum in Russia because it pays more to be scum there whereas Azeri scum in Azerbaijan get into huge trouble?

    It's worth noting that a lot of Muslim countries have low homicide rates but their diasporas aren't always as peaceful and non-violent. For instance, Muslim crime in Europe is often a very serious problem. The Maghreb itself is relatively homicide-free; French Maghrebis, on the other hand, are a completely different story. I wonder why.

    Replies: @Blinky Bill, @AP, @Dmitry

    , @Dmitry
    @AP

    Negative attitudes in Russia to Armenians/Azerbaijanis (most netizens on the sites I go to, are spamming comments which are equivalent of "syphilis vs herpes" when this war is discussed), is also a bit trivial, ignorant and uninteresting.

    When you are receiving country of annoying brown immigrants from a primitive tribal hinterland, and with almost open borders meaning there is no selection for higher quality immigrants - then it's completely predictable that people will not have a positive view on the donor nationality.

    Look at American attitudes to Mexicans, English attitude to Pakistanis, French attitudes to Algerians, German attitudes to Turks, etc. There is always the same kind of negative opinion, when you are more developed receptor country, of open borders type of immigration from a poor undeveloped, corrupt region.

    If we wanted to objectively judge the pluses and minuses of the Mexican nation, we shouldn't ask Americans - as they are victims of being a receptor country of Mexican gangsters and peasants, and their attitude of the Mexican nationality is coloured by the unfiltered immigration flow.

    Similarly, if we wanted to be objective about Caucasian nationalities, we should send some unacquainted American, Chinese or Indian person to go live with them, and report to us. (And in the meantime we may pray that our researcher won't die from food poisoning after eating their kebabs, or be murdered with a knife, for looking at their attractive sisters.)

    The objective discussion of nationalities like Armenians or Azerbaijanis, will be more from the people who visit their countries, and do not have experience of being receptors of unfiltered immigration from there.

    -

    By the way, I've never been to Armenia or Azerbaijan. But my parents were on vacation in Baku and said they enjoyed the city.

    , @AltanBakshi
    @AP

    Azerbaijan is those resource rich countries where all money is put into capital and rest of the country gets nothing and is very undeveloped. As its usual with you, you rarely can see the bigger picture.

    Replies: @AP

  175. @AnonFromTN
    @Ano4


    That’s why I say that I wish them both good luck sorting it out in Karabakh…
     
    That reminds me of the episode when one Syrian terrorist group blew up some leaders of another. Russians responded with a joke: “we sincerely wish continuing success to both teams”.

    Personally, I know only three Armenians and three Azeris. Two Armenians were my classmates at Moscow State. One is a Moscow Armenian, I am not even sure he speaks the language. He was a pretty nice highly intelligent guy. He still works in research, spends half his time in Moscow and the other half in Germany, publishes interesting papers (not exactly my field, he deals with evolution, but that makes it interesting to me). The other used to be a pretty girl, now she is an Assistant Professor in Boston. The third one I met in the US and collaborated with him on an evolution-related project. I am not sure he speaks Armenian: his wife is Russian, and his Russian is perfect. All three Azeris I know are from Azerbaijan, they were graduate students in my Institute in Moscow. One always was and still is a hard-working honest guy, now a Research Instructor (i.e., glorified post-doc) in the lab of my friend in Iowa. The other two are pretty flaky characters, now in California. Both dropped –ov and –ev from their family names, which tells me more than I want to know about them.

    Replies: @Ano4

    The completely Russified intellectual types aren’t the problem, they are certainly nicer to be around than some Russian gopnik (a nod and a wink to our friend AltanBakshi).

    Although Geydar Dzhemal and Sergei Kurginian are an exception to the statement above. I believe that both had a rather destructive influence on Russian society, despite being highly intelligent and deeply Russified persons. Both probably understood that they worked against Russian interests, both pretended otherwise…

  176. @AP
    @Ano4

    After having become familiar with Azeris and their activities in Moscow, I was shocked at how orderly, clean, safe and decent Azerbaijan itself was. I was there in 2017; I wonder how bad it had been in the 90s. Maybe Aliyev kept his house in order and the scum left for Russia?

    Replies: @Ano4, @Mr. XYZ, @Dmitry, @AltanBakshi

    I have also heard that Bsku greatly improved in the last decade. I have never been there. You might be correct that those who migrated to Moscow en masse after the fall of USSR were not the best representatives of their nation.

  177. @AP
    @Ano4

    After having become familiar with Azeris and their activities in Moscow, I was shocked at how orderly, clean, safe and decent Azerbaijan itself was. I was there in 2017; I wonder how bad it had been in the 90s. Maybe Aliyev kept his house in order and the scum left for Russia?

    Replies: @Ano4, @Mr. XYZ, @Dmitry, @AltanBakshi

    Or maybe Azeris are scum in Russia because it pays more to be scum there whereas Azeri scum in Azerbaijan get into huge trouble?

    It’s worth noting that a lot of Muslim countries have low homicide rates but their diasporas aren’t always as peaceful and non-violent. For instance, Muslim crime in Europe is often a very serious problem. The Maghreb itself is relatively homicide-free; French Maghrebis, on the other hand, are a completely different story. I wonder why.

    • Replies: @Blinky Bill
    @Mr. XYZ


    It’s worth noting that a lot of Muslim countries have low homicide rates but their diasporas aren’t always as peaceful and non-violent.
     
    The old rules (constraints) which were violently inforced have been forgotten and the new societal rules norms are meaningless, literally treated as a joke.
    , @AP
    @Mr. XYZ


    It’s worth noting that a lot of Muslim countries have low homicide rates but their diasporas aren’t always as peaceful and non-violent. For instance, Muslim crime in Europe is often a very serious problem
     
    Homicide rates in western Europe are fairly low so it can't be a huge problem, even though immigrants from Maghreb are more prone to homicide than natives in Europe.

    Homicide rate in France is 1.2 (compared to 4.96 in USA), despite the presence of all those people from the Maghreb in France.

    In Algeria it's 1.36, Morocco 1.42, and in Tunisia it's 3.05.

    The issue is terrorism (which is shocking, but rare) much more so than daily street homicide.

    Replies: @Matra

    , @Dmitry
    @Mr. XYZ

    Part of the issue, is the easy flow of immigrants across the borders. In open borders (where paperwork is not carefully verified) or in situations where the source country of the immigrants does not provide such verification, criminals become one of the most mobile professions in society, to the extent they are not in prison.

    A lot of the criminals' businesses is also based on exploiting movement across borders, and open borders can probably also result increasing the number of organized criminals from those nationalities, as it creates increasing demand for their work.

    -

    I saw recently the film "Scarface" in Netflix. Aside from being some kind of implausible mix of Rambo and Stendhal's "Le Rouge et le Noir" - its story is quite related to this topic.

    In 1980, thousands of Cubans flooded America, in the "Mariel boatlift". It was also useful way for Castro to empty his prisons. Former residents of Cuba's prisons, flooded into Florida claiming to be "refugees". As a result of the high proportion of representatives of the criminal professions in the Cuban immigration, Miami becomes a crime capital of America.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gl9OddN29Z4

    Replies: @Blinky Bill

  178. @Mr. XYZ
    @AP

    Or maybe Azeris are scum in Russia because it pays more to be scum there whereas Azeri scum in Azerbaijan get into huge trouble?

    It's worth noting that a lot of Muslim countries have low homicide rates but their diasporas aren't always as peaceful and non-violent. For instance, Muslim crime in Europe is often a very serious problem. The Maghreb itself is relatively homicide-free; French Maghrebis, on the other hand, are a completely different story. I wonder why.

    Replies: @Blinky Bill, @AP, @Dmitry

    It’s worth noting that a lot of Muslim countries have low homicide rates but their diasporas aren’t always as peaceful and non-violent.

    The old rules (constraints) which were violently inforced have been forgotten and the new societal rules norms are meaningless, literally treated as a joke.

  179. @reiner Tor
    @Ano4

    Perhaps, though it must be noted that it didn’t matter. Hitler didn’t lose because he openly stated such things (though in a long book, or before his immediate entourage only, so people didn’t care for it), he lost because his vision was pretty much impossible to implement. Of course, what Stalin wanted was also impossible, but it didn’t become apparent in such a dramatic fashion.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @Kent Nationalist, @Yevardian

    Of course, what Stalin wanted was also impossible, but it didn’t become apparent in such a dramatic fashion.

    Stalin has always seemed very grounded and realistic in his goals to me, I don’t think he really believed in Lenin or Trotsky’s ideas of a millenarian global revolution, and he fully conceded in private that America was indisputably the world’s most powerful country after WW2 and strenuously tried to avoid conflicting with them.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @Yevardian

    But I'm pretty sure that Stalin didn't think that his life's achievement, the big, strong USSR and the "people's democracies" in the eastern half of Europe would just crumble within a few decades after his death. (Let's not even touch the possibility that he was actually murdered, or in a more charitable interpretation of events, allowed to die without medical treatment, which would not be a much better death than Hitler's suicide, and politically certainly a failure, considering how much of his energies Stalin concentrated on not getting toppled or killed by his subordinates, and how many people he murdered to prevent that.)

    Stalin probably thought or hoped that the USSR would continue to exist for a long time to come, and would've been disappointed to hear that his successors just dissolved the entity without much trying to defend it.

    Replies: @Ano4

  180. @Mr. XYZ
    @AP

    Or maybe Azeris are scum in Russia because it pays more to be scum there whereas Azeri scum in Azerbaijan get into huge trouble?

    It's worth noting that a lot of Muslim countries have low homicide rates but their diasporas aren't always as peaceful and non-violent. For instance, Muslim crime in Europe is often a very serious problem. The Maghreb itself is relatively homicide-free; French Maghrebis, on the other hand, are a completely different story. I wonder why.

    Replies: @Blinky Bill, @AP, @Dmitry

    It’s worth noting that a lot of Muslim countries have low homicide rates but their diasporas aren’t always as peaceful and non-violent. For instance, Muslim crime in Europe is often a very serious problem

    Homicide rates in western Europe are fairly low so it can’t be a huge problem, even though immigrants from Maghreb are more prone to homicide than natives in Europe.

    Homicide rate in France is 1.2 (compared to 4.96 in USA), despite the presence of all those people from the Maghreb in France.

    In Algeria it’s 1.36, Morocco 1.42, and in Tunisia it’s 3.05.

    The issue is terrorism (which is shocking, but rare) much more so than daily street homicide.

    • Replies: @Matra
    @AP

    Street violence in general from North Africans, sub-Saharan Africans and certain Asians such as Afghans in France is far more important than terrorism. It doesn't normally result in homicide - though those are up an incredible 30% over last year - but in recent months daily random stabbings and other violent robberies (which have doubled according to a report I saw this weekend on TV5) on the streets and public transportation have become the #1 political topic in France, often relegating Covid news to the second half of nightly news broadcasts.

    North African crime levels are lower back home because there they are rooted to family/community in a shame culture, unlike when in Europe, where they are often deracinated. When they commit a crime in Europe only the perpetrator is punished - and too often even that doesn't happen - but in North Africa their family is also likely to be informally punished. The influence of Western cultural degeneracy - alcohol, drugs, media celebration of rebelliousness & delinquency - in an individualistic setting plays a role too.

  181. @Ano4
    @Dmitry

    I have never heard of specifically Armenian Jews. I actually thought that Gorski (Caucasus) Jews were all the same across the region.

    It is true that some Gorski Jews from Azerbaijan became very wealthy in Russia after the fall of the Soviet Union. Armenians are more present among the intelligentsia, the liberal professions and the higher ranks of the administration.

    Both diasporas have their own organized criminal circles. Although both mafias pale in comparison to the Georgians or Chechens.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Verymuchalive

    The Jews there include different nationalities, with different languages. Mountain Jews speak a kind of Iranian language and originate from Ancient Southern Iran.

    Georgian Jews speak Georgian language; Armenian Jews speak Armenian language.

    Also this is not a representative sample or very scientific. But my impression if you look at the famous caucasians in Israel (for example Likud politicians) they seem like stereotype faces of the country of origin, rather than being from the same nationality as each other.

    Likud Georgian Jew politician Hotovely – looks like stereotype Georgian long face.

    Likud Mountain Jew politician – Ze’ev Elkin. (looks like a stereotype of Southern Iranian nationality perhaps, even Pakistani?).

    • Thanks: Ano4
  182. @AP
    @Ano4

    After having become familiar with Azeris and their activities in Moscow, I was shocked at how orderly, clean, safe and decent Azerbaijan itself was. I was there in 2017; I wonder how bad it had been in the 90s. Maybe Aliyev kept his house in order and the scum left for Russia?

    Replies: @Ano4, @Mr. XYZ, @Dmitry, @AltanBakshi

    Negative attitudes in Russia to Armenians/Azerbaijanis (most netizens on the sites I go to, are spamming comments which are equivalent of “syphilis vs herpes” when this war is discussed), is also a bit trivial, ignorant and uninteresting.

    When you are receiving country of annoying brown immigrants from a primitive tribal hinterland, and with almost open borders meaning there is no selection for higher quality immigrants – then it’s completely predictable that people will not have a positive view on the donor nationality.

    Look at American attitudes to Mexicans, English attitude to Pakistanis, French attitudes to Algerians, German attitudes to Turks, etc. There is always the same kind of negative opinion, when you are more developed receptor country, of open borders type of immigration from a poor undeveloped, corrupt region.

    If we wanted to objectively judge the pluses and minuses of the Mexican nation, we shouldn’t ask Americans – as they are victims of being a receptor country of Mexican gangsters and peasants, and their attitude of the Mexican nationality is coloured by the unfiltered immigration flow.

    Similarly, if we wanted to be objective about Caucasian nationalities, we should send some unacquainted American, Chinese or Indian person to go live with them, and report to us. (And in the meantime we may pray that our researcher won’t die from food poisoning after eating their kebabs, or be murdered with a knife, for looking at their attractive sisters.)

    The objective discussion of nationalities like Armenians or Azerbaijanis, will be more from the people who visit their countries, and do not have experience of being receptors of unfiltered immigration from there.

    By the way, I’ve never been to Armenia or Azerbaijan. But my parents were on vacation in Baku and said they enjoyed the city.

    • Agree: Ano4
  183. @Europe Europa
    The BBC's report on the 10 o clock News last night was surprising pro-Armenian, with the reporter sheltering from Azeri bombs with ethnic Armenian civilians in Stepanakert.

    Their take was clearly that they see the Azeris as ruthless butchers. I find this surprising because I would have expected the BBC to be more pro-Azeri, because they're Muslim and also because their big ally is Turkey, which is a NATO country.

    Replies: @Spisarevski, @Mikhail

    Pashinyan in a not too distant BBC feature:

    The particular journo interviewing him is known for being hard assed.

  184. @Ano4
    @Spisarevski


    The Azeri president message was clearly tailored to Russian audience, said how the Soros-sponsored color revolution made the Armenians not willing to negotiate, etc. Pashinyan’s statement was unfocused and he looked nervous.
     
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/nintchdbpict000270816928.jpg

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/NINTCHDBPICT000491674105.jpg

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7053097/amp/Vladimir-Putins-rumoured-lover-36-gives-birth-twins-guarded-clinic-Russian-reports-claim.html

    Pashinian doesn't stand a chance against the Kabaeva's discreet Azeri charm....

    Replies: @AnonFromTN, @Mikhail

    According to English Wiki, Kabaeva was born in Uzbekistan and is of Tatar and Russian backgrounds.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alina_Kabaeva

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @Mikhail

    The Azeri were called Caucasus ot Nakhichevan Tatars in Russian Empire. This appellation was used well into the 1930ies. When discussing Azerbaijan, Stalin usually calls its Muslim population Tatars. The Azeri nation is a byproduct of Soviet nation-building.

    Anyway, my comment about Kabaeva was humorous.

    Replies: @AP

  185. @AP
    @Ano4

    After having become familiar with Azeris and their activities in Moscow, I was shocked at how orderly, clean, safe and decent Azerbaijan itself was. I was there in 2017; I wonder how bad it had been in the 90s. Maybe Aliyev kept his house in order and the scum left for Russia?

    Replies: @Ano4, @Mr. XYZ, @Dmitry, @AltanBakshi

    Azerbaijan is those resource rich countries where all money is put into capital and rest of the country gets nothing and is very undeveloped. As its usual with you, you rarely can see the bigger picture.

    • Replies: @AP
    @AltanBakshi


    Azerbaijan is those resource rich countries where all money is put into capital and rest of the country gets nothing and is very undeveloped. As its usual with you, you rarely can see the bigger picture
     
    Azerbaijan is a geographically small country with 10.1 million people. 2.2 million live within the Baku city limits. A little over 5 million people (half the country’s population) live in metro Baku. Baku is far more of a “bigger picture” of Azerbaijan than, say, Moscow is of Russia. That having been said, I do not pretend to be an expert on Azerbaijan, I’m just sharing what I saw.
  186. @Mr. XYZ
    @AP

    Or maybe Azeris are scum in Russia because it pays more to be scum there whereas Azeri scum in Azerbaijan get into huge trouble?

    It's worth noting that a lot of Muslim countries have low homicide rates but their diasporas aren't always as peaceful and non-violent. For instance, Muslim crime in Europe is often a very serious problem. The Maghreb itself is relatively homicide-free; French Maghrebis, on the other hand, are a completely different story. I wonder why.

    Replies: @Blinky Bill, @AP, @Dmitry

    Part of the issue, is the easy flow of immigrants across the borders. In open borders (where paperwork is not carefully verified) or in situations where the source country of the immigrants does not provide such verification, criminals become one of the most mobile professions in society, to the extent they are not in prison.

    A lot of the criminals’ businesses is also based on exploiting movement across borders, and open borders can probably also result increasing the number of organized criminals from those nationalities, as it creates increasing demand for their work.

    I saw recently the film “Scarface” in Netflix. Aside from being some kind of implausible mix of Rambo and Stendhal’s “Le Rouge et le Noir” – its story is quite related to this topic.

    In 1980, thousands of Cubans flooded America, in the “Mariel boatlift”. It was also useful way for Castro to empty his prisons. Former residents of Cuba’s prisons, flooded into Florida claiming to be “refugees”. As a result of the high proportion of representatives of the criminal professions in the Cuban immigration, Miami becomes a crime capital of America.

    • Replies: @Blinky Bill
    @Dmitry


    https://youtu.be/kZgE_sUrXFY?t=95

  187. Al Jazeera’s very recent features with Pashinyan and Aliyev:

    Aliyev says that the prior Armenian leadership was more accommodating to a pace process than Pashinyan.

  188. @Ano4
    @Mr. Hack

    Stalin was quite impartial when it come up to starving people. He starved Russians and other populations of USSR as well as Ukrainians.

    Although I certainly understand that Ukrainian nationalists only care about Ukrainian victims. True compassion begins at home...

    🙂

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Mr. Hack

    It’s certainly true that there were famines before the 1930’s in other parts of the Soviet Union that included other ethnicities than just Ukrainians, but none as widespread and devastating as the one experienced by Ukrainians in Ukraine during 1930-1933 (holodomor). Besides the sheer numbers involved of victims of starvation (4-6M), the fact that an enormous simultaneous extermination of Ukraine’s intelligentsia was taking place concurrently, indicates that Stalin’s actions in Ukraine were more than just the pacification of recalcitrant peasants that were resisting collectivization. Also, I’m not aware of any other famine that took place within the Soviet Union where a blockade was set up on the border between Russia and other republics as there was with Ukraine where starving Ukrainian peasants were captured and turned back to the starvation back at home. Apparently, at the very same time that the agricultural regions of the Russian heartland were not experiencing anything similar as regards food appropriation resulting in massive starvation. In Stalin’s own words:

    If we do not immediately take charge of straightening out the situation in Ukraine, we could lose Ukraine. Bear in mind that Pilsudski never rests, his espionage capabilities in Ukraine are much stronger than Redens and Kosior realize. And remember too that, in the Ukrainian Communist Party (500 000 members, ha ha !), we find no few (no, no few!) rotten types, conscious and unconscious ‘petliurites’, as well as direct agents of Pilsudski. As soon as things get worse, these elements will lose no time in opening up a front within (and outside) the Party, against the Party. The worst of it is that the Ukrainian leaders are oblivious to these dangers (Khlevniuk, 2001: 273-274).

    It becomes apparent that in Stalin’s mind the famine was just another tool to be used against the Ukrainian peasantry, the bulwark of the Ukrainian national idea:

    For Stalin, the Ukrainian peasant question was “in essence, a national question, the peasants constituting the principal force of the national movement” (Stalin, 1954: 71). By crushing the peasantry, one was breaking the most powerful national movement capable of opposing the process of the construction of the USSR. As the famine decimated the Ukrainian peasantry, the regime condemned the entire policy of Ukrainization underway since the early 1920s: The Ukrainian elites were rounded up and arrested.

    https://www.sciencespo.fr/mass-violence-war-massacre-resistance/fr/document/great-ukrainian-famine-1932-33.html

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    @Mr. Hack

    I wonder how perverse Ukies can get with straight face. So, here is my question: was the severe famine in Ukrainian areas of Poland, which occurred at the same time as alleged Holodomor, also Stalin’s fault?

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  189. @Ano4
    @Mr. Hack

    Stalin was quite impartial when it come up to starving people. He starved Russians and other populations of USSR as well as Ukrainians.

    Although I certainly understand that Ukrainian nationalists only care about Ukrainian victims. True compassion begins at home...

    🙂

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Mr. Hack

    It’s certainly true that there were famines before the 1930’s in other parts of the Soviet Union that included other ethnicities than just Ukrainians, but none as widespread and devastating as the one experienced by Ukrainians in Ukraine during 1930-1933 (holodomor). Besides the sheer numbers involved of victims of starvation (4-6M), the fact that an enormous simultaneous extermination of Ukraine’s intelligentsia was taking place concurrently, indicates that Stalin’s actions in Ukraine were more than just the pacifiation of recalcitrant peasants that were resisting collectivization. Also, I’m not aware of any other famine that took place within the Soviet Union where a blocaka was set up on the border between Russia and Ukraine where starving Ukrainian peasants were captured and turned back to the starvation back at home. Apparenly, at this bery same time the agricultural regions of the Russian heartland were not experiencing anything similar as regards food appropriation resulting in massive starvation. In Stalin’s own words:

    If we do not immediately take charge of straightening out the situation in Ukraine, we could lose Ukraine. Bear in mind that Pilsudski never rests, his espionage capabilities in Ukraine are much stronger than Redens and Kosior realize. And remember too that, in the Ukrainian Communist Party (500 000 members, ha ha !), we find no few (no, no few!) rotten types, conscious and unconscious ‘petliurites’, as well as direct agents of Pilsudski. As soon as things get worse, these elements will lose no time in opening up a front within (and outside) the Party, against the Party. The worst of it is that the Ukrainian leaders are oblivious to these dangers (Khlevniuk, 2001: 273-274).

    It becomes aparent that in Stalin’s mind the famine was just another tool to be used against the Ukrainian peasantry, the bulwark of the Ukrainian national idea:

    For Stalin, the Ukrainian peasant question was “in essence, a national question, the peasants constituting the principal force of the national movement” (Stalin, 1954: 71). By crushing the peasantry, one was breaking the most powerful national movement capable of opposing the process of the construction of the USSR. As the famine decimated the Ukrainian peasantry, the regime condemned the entire policy of Ukrainization underway since the early 1920s: The Ukrainian elites were rounded up and arrested.

    https://www.sciencespo.fr/mass-violence-war-massacre-resistance/fr/document/great-ukrainian-famine-1932-33.html

  190. @Dmitry
    @Mr. XYZ

    Part of the issue, is the easy flow of immigrants across the borders. In open borders (where paperwork is not carefully verified) or in situations where the source country of the immigrants does not provide such verification, criminals become one of the most mobile professions in society, to the extent they are not in prison.

    A lot of the criminals' businesses is also based on exploiting movement across borders, and open borders can probably also result increasing the number of organized criminals from those nationalities, as it creates increasing demand for their work.

    -

    I saw recently the film "Scarface" in Netflix. Aside from being some kind of implausible mix of Rambo and Stendhal's "Le Rouge et le Noir" - its story is quite related to this topic.

    In 1980, thousands of Cubans flooded America, in the "Mariel boatlift". It was also useful way for Castro to empty his prisons. Former residents of Cuba's prisons, flooded into Florida claiming to be "refugees". As a result of the high proportion of representatives of the criminal professions in the Cuban immigration, Miami becomes a crime capital of America.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gl9OddN29Z4

    Replies: @Blinky Bill

    [MORE]

  191. @Ano4
    @Verymuchalive

    The Central Asian ancestry is probably around 10% of the modern Turkish population. The Anatolian Turks are indeed mainly the result of the indigenous populations acculturation. An example comes to mind, Kheirredine and Aruç pashas of the Barbary pirates' fame had a Turk officer as a father and a Greek mother who was a widow of an Orthodox clergyman.

    Replies: @Verymuchalive

    I have seen figures of 20% or more. It would probably depend on which part of Anatolia.

    • Replies: @Blinky Bill
    @Verymuchalive

    https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcRz9dzMw9Yn_goT12vYKG8oRvBP04NzDjhEHw&usqp.jpg

    Replies: @Ano4, @AltanBakshi

    , @Ano4
    @Verymuchalive

    In some villages it gets higher than 20%. But overall it is around 10%. Please see my reply to Blinky Bill below.

    Replies: @Verymuchalive

  192. Azerbaijan was hoping for a quick blitzkrieg victory, looks like that hasn’t worked out and they are increasingly losing the war of attrition to Armenia.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @LondonBob

    Azerbaijan is trying to conquer a territory Nagorno Karabakh.

    As the name suggest, this is mountainous territory, and relatively uninhabitable as well, with cliffs and forests.

    Therefore fighting for this uplands will be extremely slow, with very small territorial changes.

    If Azerbaijan is successful, there would probably be months of fighting to conquer a significant proportion of the territory (and whether it is valuable enough to be fighting about, is another question).

  193. @Ano4
    @Dmitry

    I have never heard of specifically Armenian Jews. I actually thought that Gorski (Caucasus) Jews were all the same across the region.

    It is true that some Gorski Jews from Azerbaijan became very wealthy in Russia after the fall of the Soviet Union. Armenians are more present among the intelligentsia, the liberal professions and the higher ranks of the administration.

    Both diasporas have their own organized criminal circles. Although both mafias pale in comparison to the Georgians or Chechens.

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Verymuchalive

    There are about 300–500[1] Jews presently living in Armenia, mainly in the capital Yerevan.[1] They are mostly of Ashkenazi origin, while some are Mizrahi and Georgian Jews.

    Dmitry is havering. Jews didn’t start to appear in Armenia until the C19th and later. They were few in number.

    In 1828, the Russo-Persian War came to an end and Eastern Armenia (currently the Republic of Armenia) was annexed to the Russian Empire with the Treaty of Turkmenchai. Polish and Iranian Jews began arriving,

    There were certainly Jews in Armenia in ancient times. Their descendants were assimilated by the Middle Ages. Armenia is one of those countries where this has happened. Any Jews present today are very few in number and the result of recent immigration.They are completely insignificant.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Armenia

  194. @Verymuchalive
    @Ano4

    I have seen figures of 20% or more. It would probably depend on which part of Anatolia.

    Replies: @Blinky Bill, @Ano4

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @Blinky Bill

    The SNP population genetics comparisons are more or less meaningless. Same as mitochondrial DNA. The only thing that can really be quantified with more or less some degree of certainty are Y haplogroups.

    Problem is, even close to their Urheimat, in Central Asia proper, the Turk populations are genetically heterogeneous. Turk ethnogenesis was a complex process of acculturation of local populations under elite dominance towards the language and social organization of these elite clans and tribes. Even the elite clans and tribes themselves were ethnically heterogeneous to some extent. When these populations arrived to Anatolia, a thousand years later, they carried with them the whole of Eurasia in their genomes.



    If one looks for "pure Turks " today, one should probably look at Tuvans.

    https://indo-european.eu/2018/08/y-dna-haplogroups-of-tuvinian-tribes-show-little-effect-of-the-mongol-expansion/

    How many of those haplogroups do we find on average among modern day Anatolian Turks?

    N=3.8%
    Q=1.9%
    C=1.3%
    O = less than 1%

    Although there are regional differences, in some of the villages some of these markers reach up to 25%. Hardly the majority.

    If we look at the typical Levantine haplogroups:

    J2=24%
    G=10.9%
    E3b-M35=10.7%
    J1=9%
    T=2.5%

    They represent more than half of the population.

    If we add the Western Eurasian"steppe haplogroups " derived from Yamnaya and Corded Ware people:

    R1b=15.9%
    R1a=6.9%

    A significant proportion, which could have come partially from Central Asian steppe (Scythian and Sarmatian descent), but most probably has been at least partially derived from the local populations living there since the Bronze Age Indo-European expansion.

    If we add the Levantine haplogroups and the Western Eurasian ones we have covered the majority of the Anatolian Turkish population. And Turks become impossible to distinguish from their Armenian and Greek neighbors.

    As AltanBakshi correctly noted, when Turkish nationalists pretend being the descendants of the great Steppe Empires, they are mostly LARPing. But don't tell that to Turk and Armenian nationalists, that goes very much against their mythology...

    🙂

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    , @AltanBakshi
    @Blinky Bill

    It doesnt make sense that coastal populations have more East Asian admixture than those "Turks" who live on highlands of Central Anatolia, Central Anatolia was the heartland of the Turks when they arrived to Anatolia and more suitable to pastoral economy and coastal areas were definitely ,more densely populated by Greeks than arid highland regions. There is no historical proof of ethnic cleansing of Hellenic population by the Turks during the conquest, although there were Greeks who moved westwards or converted to Islam.

  195. @Epigon
    @Kent Nationalist

    That’s rich coming from a person who unironically wrote that a couple of Pz.Div. could alter the outcome of the war.

    Let me guess - you also think North Africa was a major theatre of war?

    Replies: @Kent Nationalist

  196. @Blinky Bill
    @Verymuchalive

    https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcRz9dzMw9Yn_goT12vYKG8oRvBP04NzDjhEHw&usqp.jpg

    Replies: @Ano4, @AltanBakshi

    The SNP population genetics comparisons are more or less meaningless. Same as mitochondrial DNA. The only thing that can really be quantified with more or less some degree of certainty are Y haplogroups.

    Problem is, even close to their Urheimat, in Central Asia proper, the Turk populations are genetically heterogeneous. Turk ethnogenesis was a complex process of acculturation of local populations under elite dominance towards the language and social organization of these elite clans and tribes. Even the elite clans and tribes themselves were ethnically heterogeneous to some extent. When these populations arrived to Anatolia, a thousand years later, they carried with them the whole of Eurasia in their genomes.

    [MORE]

    If one looks for “pure Turks ” today, one should probably look at Tuvans.

    https://indo-european.eu/2018/08/y-dna-haplogroups-of-tuvinian-tribes-show-little-effect-of-the-mongol-expansion/

    How many of those haplogroups do we find on average among modern day Anatolian Turks?

    N=3.8%
    Q=1.9%
    C=1.3%
    O = less than 1%

    Although there are regional differences, in some of the villages some of these markers reach up to 25%. Hardly the majority.

    If we look at the typical Levantine haplogroups:

    J2=24%
    G=10.9%
    E3b-M35=10.7%
    J1=9%
    T=2.5%

    They represent more than half of the population.

    If we add the Western Eurasian”steppe haplogroups ” derived from Yamnaya and Corded Ware people:

    R1b=15.9%
    R1a=6.9%

    A significant proportion, which could have come partially from Central Asian steppe (Scythian and Sarmatian descent), but most probably has been at least partially derived from the local populations living there since the Bronze Age Indo-European expansion.

    If we add the Levantine haplogroups and the Western Eurasian ones we have covered the majority of the Anatolian Turkish population. And Turks become impossible to distinguish from their Armenian and Greek neighbors.

    As AltanBakshi correctly noted, when Turkish nationalists pretend being the descendants of the great Steppe Empires, they are mostly LARPing. But don’t tell that to Turk and Armenian nationalists, that goes very much against their mythology…

    🙂

    • Thanks: AltanBakshi
    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @Ano4

    Yes even the Uyghurs and the Uzbeks are heavily mixed with ancient Indo-European people.

    Replies: @Ano4

  197. @AltanBakshi
    @AP

    Azerbaijan is those resource rich countries where all money is put into capital and rest of the country gets nothing and is very undeveloped. As its usual with you, you rarely can see the bigger picture.

    Replies: @AP

    Azerbaijan is those resource rich countries where all money is put into capital and rest of the country gets nothing and is very undeveloped. As its usual with you, you rarely can see the bigger picture

    Azerbaijan is a geographically small country with 10.1 million people. 2.2 million live within the Baku city limits. A little over 5 million people (half the country’s population) live in metro Baku. Baku is far more of a “bigger picture” of Azerbaijan than, say, Moscow is of Russia. That having been said, I do not pretend to be an expert on Azerbaijan, I’m just sharing what I saw.

  198. @Blinky Bill
    @Verymuchalive

    https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcRz9dzMw9Yn_goT12vYKG8oRvBP04NzDjhEHw&usqp.jpg

    Replies: @Ano4, @AltanBakshi

    It doesnt make sense that coastal populations have more East Asian admixture than those “Turks” who live on highlands of Central Anatolia, Central Anatolia was the heartland of the Turks when they arrived to Anatolia and more suitable to pastoral economy and coastal areas were definitely ,more densely populated by Greeks than arid highland regions. There is no historical proof of ethnic cleansing of Hellenic population by the Turks during the conquest, although there were Greeks who moved westwards or converted to Islam.

  199. @Ano4
    @Blinky Bill

    The SNP population genetics comparisons are more or less meaningless. Same as mitochondrial DNA. The only thing that can really be quantified with more or less some degree of certainty are Y haplogroups.

    Problem is, even close to their Urheimat, in Central Asia proper, the Turk populations are genetically heterogeneous. Turk ethnogenesis was a complex process of acculturation of local populations under elite dominance towards the language and social organization of these elite clans and tribes. Even the elite clans and tribes themselves were ethnically heterogeneous to some extent. When these populations arrived to Anatolia, a thousand years later, they carried with them the whole of Eurasia in their genomes.



    If one looks for "pure Turks " today, one should probably look at Tuvans.

    https://indo-european.eu/2018/08/y-dna-haplogroups-of-tuvinian-tribes-show-little-effect-of-the-mongol-expansion/

    How many of those haplogroups do we find on average among modern day Anatolian Turks?

    N=3.8%
    Q=1.9%
    C=1.3%
    O = less than 1%

    Although there are regional differences, in some of the villages some of these markers reach up to 25%. Hardly the majority.

    If we look at the typical Levantine haplogroups:

    J2=24%
    G=10.9%
    E3b-M35=10.7%
    J1=9%
    T=2.5%

    They represent more than half of the population.

    If we add the Western Eurasian"steppe haplogroups " derived from Yamnaya and Corded Ware people:

    R1b=15.9%
    R1a=6.9%

    A significant proportion, which could have come partially from Central Asian steppe (Scythian and Sarmatian descent), but most probably has been at least partially derived from the local populations living there since the Bronze Age Indo-European expansion.

    If we add the Levantine haplogroups and the Western Eurasian ones we have covered the majority of the Anatolian Turkish population. And Turks become impossible to distinguish from their Armenian and Greek neighbors.

    As AltanBakshi correctly noted, when Turkish nationalists pretend being the descendants of the great Steppe Empires, they are mostly LARPing. But don't tell that to Turk and Armenian nationalists, that goes very much against their mythology...

    🙂

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    Yes even the Uyghurs and the Uzbeks are heavily mixed with ancient Indo-European people.

    • Agree: Ano4
    • Replies: @Ano4
    @AltanBakshi

    Turkish populations have probably been "open structures " from their very inception. All Steppe Empires have been quite diverse from the ethnic groups point of view.

    If we look at modern day Khakassian people who live close to the homeland of the early Turks we find a mix of different Y haplogroups. They are more diverse than the modern day Tuvan people.

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21790006/

    If we look at elite Hun clan paleogenetics from Mongolian burials, we find some haplogroup diversity even in the elite clans. I know that Huns were not Turks or Mongols, but they were probably a great example of a Steppe Empire.

    https://indo-european.eu/2020/08/xiongnu-ancestry-connects-huns-avars-to-scytho-siberians/

    We know that the Mongolian Horde also encompassed various other ethnic elements. The Mongol themselves were probably a minority in the Golden Horde.

    Anatolian Turks are just the final and most extreme result of a similar cultural and ethnic evolution process.

  200. @Epigon
    @Kent Nationalist

    Lol, no.

    Long story short - Germans timed their offensive on USSR very very well, extra Pz and Mot in Africa would only excerberate the logistical issues due to Malta, RN and RAF; German logistical tail to Moscow was unsustainable, and the hypothetical diversion of tanks towards Moscow instead of eliminating the Kiev salient could have been a total disaster. German success at sucker punches and the industrial/geopolitical reality meant that Germans got the best chance in 1941. In 1942, RKKA would have been an entirely different affair - for example, T-34 wouldn’t be in production anymore.

    Replies: @Kent Nationalist, @AP, @reiner Tor, @GazaPlanet

    German logistical tail to Moscow was unsustainable

    That’s questionable, since they lost a lot of time and used up their resources to destroy the Soviet grouping in Ukraine. This meant that when they resumed the attack in October, they had weaker forces at their disposal than they’d have had in late August, and also in October the rasputitsa stopped them for two weeks. Had they been able to continue, the Soviets would’ve had basically no forces to defend Moscow. Since even as it was, they managed to reach the outskirts of Moscow, capturing or at least encircling Moscow would’ve certainly happened. We don’t know what would’ve happened afterwards.

    In 1942, RKKA would have been an entirely different affair

    The German MIC was growing faster at the time than the Soviet one (the Soviets had already prematurely geared their economy to mass production of weapons, which were getting obsolete very quickly, while the Germans were arguably too late in ramping up production, and in 1940-42 were investing too much in new production capacity), so it’s not so sure. Again, it’s a “we don’t know” situation.

    sucker punches

    It’s not really a sucker punch, if the enemy has months to prepare. France had been in a state of war with Germany for over half a year, by the time Germany attacked, and the USSR should’ve known at least two months before Barbarossa about the attack. (Warsaw city traffic was almost completely shut down for over a week in April, 1941, because so many German military columns were marching through the city… The USSR had a consulate there, so if they didn’t know about it, it certainly wasn’t because of the clever German deception measures. By the way the USSR started partial mobilization already that time.)

    The fact is, the German army was tactically better than any other army at the time, or ever since. It was at the top of its game in June, 1941, after which it started to deteriorate due to slowly losing its most experienced officers and NCOs.

    ——

    However, at the big picture, you are probably correct. (With the above caveats that we really don’t know for sure, just have a high probability of it being true.) Probably Germany would’ve lost, no matter what.

    And even if Germany could’ve won, they’d have had to do literally everything correct, with very little to no room for errors.

    • Replies: @Epigon
    @reiner Tor


    That’s questionable, since they lost a lot of time and used up their resources to destroy the Soviet grouping in Ukraine. This meant that when they resumed the attack in October, they had weaker forces at their disposal than they’d have had in late August, and also in October the rasputitsa stopped them for two weeks. Had they been able to continue, the Soviets would’ve had basically no forces to defend Moscow. Since even as it was, they managed to reach the outskirts of Moscow, capturing or at least encircling Moscow would’ve certainly happened. We don’t know what would’ve happened afterwards.
     
    We don't know for sure, but we can reasonably guess. My opinion is grounded in the fact that Germans had to haul everything for hundreds of kilometres on trucks and horse carts. The reason the winter uniforms stayed in Germany while soldiers were freezing - fuel, food, ammunition and reinforcements were higher priority and the logistical chain couldn't deliver all.

    Lets entertain your proposal on moving onwards to Moscow and leaving the Kiev salient in the background. Moscow as the primary rail junction of the USSR was perfectly positioned to quickly receive Ural, Siberian and Far Eastern divisions, in addition to those raised in the European Russia (the majority of actual manpower which repelled Germans).
    Furthermore - Moscow was an order of magnitude bigger city than Stalingrad, with extensive metro and sewer system.
    Stalingrad devoured an army - Moscow could have devoured an entire army group. And force it to commit to urban, close range attritional struggle where the major German advantage of maneuver warfare proficiency and advanced tactics would count much less.
    Finally, the 600 000 Kiev force was composed of very battle-worthy divisions and would prove a tough nut to crack in case the Panzer divisions went elsewhere. You would be risking Soviets consolidating Ukraine and reinforcing crucial river frontlines.


    The German MIC was growing faster at the time than the Soviet one (the Soviets had already prematurely geared their economy to mass production of weapons, which were getting obsolete very quickly, while the Germans were arguably too late in ramping up production, and in 1940-42 were investing too much in new production capacity), so it’s not so sure. Again, it’s a “we don’t know” situation.
     
    This is rather dubious if we take a look at the Soviet tank (A-43/T-34M, KV-3/4/6, T-50), plane (LaGG, Pe-2, MiG-3, Yak) and artillery (F-22, ZiS-2, 107 mm) destined to enter service en masse in 1941 and early 1942, as well as the end of the expansion, retraining and reorganization effort.
    The issue you point out relates to 1930s designs which constituted the huge bulk of Soviet inventory on the onset of Barbarossa - T-26, BT-5/7, I-15/153/16, SB-2, 37 and 45 mm AT - which were confirmed as unsatisfactory already during the Winter War.

    It’s not really a sucker punch, if the enemy has months to prepare. France had been in a state of war with Germany for over half a year, by the time Germany attacked, and the USSR should’ve known at least two months before Barbarossa about the attack. (Warsaw city traffic was almost completely shut down for over a week in April, 1941, because so many German military columns were marching through the city… The USSR had a consulate there, so if they didn’t know about it, it certainly wasn’t because of the clever German deception measures. By the way the USSR started partial mobilization already that time.)

     

    This was more of tongue-in-cheek comment. Every single country which fell prey to German attack had more than enough time to prepare, as well as ample proof of the impending attack.

    Germany most certainly loses in the end, since the USA was actively looking and preparing for a war all the way to late 1930s, when they started commissioning 4-engine bomber designs, fast battleships and carrier task forces, culminating in July 1940 Two Ocean Act.
    The USA alone could have taken on the Axis and annihilated it systematically, even discounting the nuclear bombs.

  201. @AP
    @reiner Tor

    Turkey has been a bad influence upon the world and has done much evil, but Azerbaijan is okay. Azeris are Shiites rather than Sunnis and have maintained some pre-Islamic Persian traditions such as the old New Years' celebrations. They even maintained their ancient fire temple, after losing their own Zoroastrian faith, allowing it to be a site of pilgrimage for visitors from India for many centuries. Compare this to what was done to the Hagia Sophia by the Turks.

    Azeris were an integral part of the Persian world; this, and their later incorporation into the Russian world have been very good influences upon them. They are probably among the best of the Muslim or Turkic peoples. This pan-Turkism is clever for Azeris to exploit, and they may even believe it themselves, but they are better than most of the Turks. When this war settles down I encourage you to visit Baku, it's a very nice place with hospitable people (as long as you are not an Armenian).

    Replies: @Ano4, @AnonFromTN, @reiner Tor

    I have seen a few weird pictures of Azeris in recent days (some brown skinned muscleless unibrow guys training in the water, and similar), their beheading of Armenian soldiers (and posting it on social media), and similar things, though the funniest is certainly the mayor telling the Germans that “you, Nazis, must understand why we want to get rid of the Armenians, just like you did with the Jews,” it’s certainly a real life Borat moment.

    But yeah, they might be way better than other Muslims. Still they behead corpses (?), which is not very nice. (Granted, probably Armenians commit atrocities, too.)

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @reiner Tor

    The Russian Empire and Soviet Union, had applied efforts of Hercules to introduce enlightenment and civilization to the region. Still, we are talking about ultimately Caucasus here - i.e. cannibal territory.

    Replies: @Ano4

  202. @AltanBakshi
    @Ano4

    Yes even the Uyghurs and the Uzbeks are heavily mixed with ancient Indo-European people.

    Replies: @Ano4

    Turkish populations have probably been “open structures ” from their very inception. All Steppe Empires have been quite diverse from the ethnic groups point of view.

    If we look at modern day Khakassian people who live close to the homeland of the early Turks we find a mix of different Y haplogroups. They are more diverse than the modern day Tuvan people.

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21790006/

    If we look at elite Hun clan paleogenetics from Mongolian burials, we find some haplogroup diversity even in the elite clans. I know that Huns were not Turks or Mongols, but they were probably a great example of a Steppe Empire.

    https://indo-european.eu/2020/08/xiongnu-ancestry-connects-huns-avars-to-scytho-siberians/

    We know that the Mongolian Horde also encompassed various other ethnic elements. The Mongol themselves were probably a minority in the Golden Horde.

    Anatolian Turks are just the final and most extreme result of a similar cultural and ethnic evolution process.

  203. @Yevardian
    @reiner Tor


    Of course, what Stalin wanted was also impossible, but it didn’t become apparent in such a dramatic fashion.
     
    Stalin has always seemed very grounded and realistic in his goals to me, I don't think he really believed in Lenin or Trotsky's ideas of a millenarian global revolution, and he fully conceded in private that America was indisputably the world's most powerful country after WW2 and strenuously tried to avoid conflicting with them.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    But I’m pretty sure that Stalin didn’t think that his life’s achievement, the big, strong USSR and the “people’s democracies” in the eastern half of Europe would just crumble within a few decades after his death. (Let’s not even touch the possibility that he was actually murdered, or in a more charitable interpretation of events, allowed to die without medical treatment, which would not be a much better death than Hitler’s suicide, and politically certainly a failure, considering how much of his energies Stalin concentrated on not getting toppled or killed by his subordinates, and how many people he murdered to prevent that.)

    Stalin probably thought or hoped that the USSR would continue to exist for a long time to come, and would’ve been disappointed to hear that his successors just dissolved the entity without much trying to defend it.

    • Agree: AP
    • Replies: @Ano4
    @reiner Tor

    In the early 80ies nobody would have believed that USSR would not exist 10 years later. Around 1910 nobody would have believed that Russian Empire would succumb to a revolution and dissolve in a bloody civil war. Nobody knows what will happen after Putin. Unpredictability is a feature of the modern Russian history.

    Replies: @mal

  204. @reiner Tor
    @Yevardian

    But I'm pretty sure that Stalin didn't think that his life's achievement, the big, strong USSR and the "people's democracies" in the eastern half of Europe would just crumble within a few decades after his death. (Let's not even touch the possibility that he was actually murdered, or in a more charitable interpretation of events, allowed to die without medical treatment, which would not be a much better death than Hitler's suicide, and politically certainly a failure, considering how much of his energies Stalin concentrated on not getting toppled or killed by his subordinates, and how many people he murdered to prevent that.)

    Stalin probably thought or hoped that the USSR would continue to exist for a long time to come, and would've been disappointed to hear that his successors just dissolved the entity without much trying to defend it.

    Replies: @Ano4

    In the early 80ies nobody would have believed that USSR would not exist 10 years later. Around 1910 nobody would have believed that Russian Empire would succumb to a revolution and dissolve in a bloody civil war. Nobody knows what will happen after Putin. Unpredictability is a feature of the modern Russian history.

    • Replies: @mal
    @Ano4

    Works the other way too.

    Not many people in 1919 would have guessed that Russians would be storming Berlin, inventing ICBMs that could end the world, and putting the first man in space in a few short decades.

    Similar, when Sweden wrecked Russian Army at Narva in 1700 and then destroyed Russian allies, I bet most people were thinking 18th century would be Swedish Imperial century. That didn't quite work out that way.

  205. @Verymuchalive
    @Ano4

    I have seen figures of 20% or more. It would probably depend on which part of Anatolia.

    Replies: @Blinky Bill, @Ano4

    In some villages it gets higher than 20%. But overall it is around 10%. Please see my reply to Blinky Bill below.

    • Replies: @Verymuchalive
    @Ano4

    Thanks

  206. @Ano4
    @Verymuchalive

    In some villages it gets higher than 20%. But overall it is around 10%. Please see my reply to Blinky Bill below.

    Replies: @Verymuchalive

    Thanks

  207. @LondonBob
    Azerbaijan was hoping for a quick blitzkrieg victory, looks like that hasn't worked out and they are increasingly losing the war of attrition to Armenia.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    Azerbaijan is trying to conquer a territory Nagorno Karabakh.

    As the name suggest, this is mountainous territory, and relatively uninhabitable as well, with cliffs and forests.

    Therefore fighting for this uplands will be extremely slow, with very small territorial changes.

    If Azerbaijan is successful, there would probably be months of fighting to conquer a significant proportion of the territory (and whether it is valuable enough to be fighting about, is another question).

  208. @reiner Tor
    @AP

    I have seen a few weird pictures of Azeris in recent days (some brown skinned muscleless unibrow guys training in the water, and similar), their beheading of Armenian soldiers (and posting it on social media), and similar things, though the funniest is certainly the mayor telling the Germans that "you, Nazis, must understand why we want to get rid of the Armenians, just like you did with the Jews," it's certainly a real life Borat moment.

    But yeah, they might be way better than other Muslims. Still they behead corpses (?), which is not very nice. (Granted, probably Armenians commit atrocities, too.)

    Replies: @Dmitry

    The Russian Empire and Soviet Union, had applied efforts of Hercules to introduce enlightenment and civilization to the region. Still, we are talking about ultimately Caucasus here – i.e. cannibal territory.

    • LOL: reiner Tor
    • Replies: @Ano4
    @Dmitry

    To be fair, the Caucasus populations have very ancient and complex cultures, but they have been stuck into a medieval mindset before the Russian Empire. USSR tried to infuse them with XXth century progressive ideology, but the effort was abandoned before it yielded any durable results. This is why we have conflicts such as the one in Nagornyi Karabakh. If Russia leaves Caucasus entirely, this type of conflict will become more prevalent and the whole area will become a war zone.

    Replies: @AP, @Dmitry, @Thulean Friend

  209. Erdogan seemed increasingly noisy and aggressive this year. Maybe his gerontologist has overdone giving him testosterone injections.

    This weekend, he has also had time to say something rude about the Saudi Arabia, and now Saudis are asking their citizens to boycott Turkey.

    Saudi Arabia calls upon citizens to ‘boycott everything Turkish’ following Erdogan’s statement

    Saudi authorities called upon citizens to “boycott everything Turkish” following a statement by Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan where he accused some Gulf countries of pursuing policies that were destabilising the region, Gulf News reported on Saturday.

    “The boycott of everything Turkish, whether on the level of import, investment or tourism, is the responsibility of every Saudi — trader and consumer — in response to the continued hostility of the Turkish government against our leadership, our country and our citizens,” Saudi Arabia’s Chamber of Commerce head Ajlan Al Ajlan said in a tweet.

    https://www.dawn.com/news/1583215/saudi-arabia-calls-upon-citizens-to-boycott-everything-turkish-following-erdogans-statement

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @Dmitry

    Here’s an interesting article about Erdogan, especially how he is openly compared to Saddam three decades ago...

    https://nationalinterest.org/feature/clash-turkey-becoming-inevitable-170143

    Also, it looks like diversity is not Germany’s greatest strength:


    “Diplomats say privately that Merkel’s bigger fears are that Turkey might utilize refugees as cover to precipitate violence inside Germany, or that Erdoğan might incite Germany’s large ethnic Turkish population.”
     
  210. @AP
    @Mr. XYZ


    It’s worth noting that a lot of Muslim countries have low homicide rates but their diasporas aren’t always as peaceful and non-violent. For instance, Muslim crime in Europe is often a very serious problem
     
    Homicide rates in western Europe are fairly low so it can't be a huge problem, even though immigrants from Maghreb are more prone to homicide than natives in Europe.

    Homicide rate in France is 1.2 (compared to 4.96 in USA), despite the presence of all those people from the Maghreb in France.

    In Algeria it's 1.36, Morocco 1.42, and in Tunisia it's 3.05.

    The issue is terrorism (which is shocking, but rare) much more so than daily street homicide.

    Replies: @Matra

    Street violence in general from North Africans, sub-Saharan Africans and certain Asians such as Afghans in France is far more important than terrorism. It doesn’t normally result in homicide – though those are up an incredible 30% over last year – but in recent months daily random stabbings and other violent robberies (which have doubled according to a report I saw this weekend on TV5) on the streets and public transportation have become the #1 political topic in France, often relegating Covid news to the second half of nightly news broadcasts.

    North African crime levels are lower back home because there they are rooted to family/community in a shame culture, unlike when in Europe, where they are often deracinated. When they commit a crime in Europe only the perpetrator is punished – and too often even that doesn’t happen – but in North Africa their family is also likely to be informally punished. The influence of Western cultural degeneracy – alcohol, drugs, media celebration of rebelliousness & delinquency – in an individualistic setting plays a role too.

    • Agree: Ano4, Mitleser
    • Thanks: AP
  211. @Dmitry
    @reiner Tor

    The Russian Empire and Soviet Union, had applied efforts of Hercules to introduce enlightenment and civilization to the region. Still, we are talking about ultimately Caucasus here - i.e. cannibal territory.

    Replies: @Ano4

    To be fair, the Caucasus populations have very ancient and complex cultures, but they have been stuck into a medieval mindset before the Russian Empire. USSR tried to infuse them with XXth century progressive ideology, but the effort was abandoned before it yielded any durable results. This is why we have conflicts such as the one in Nagornyi Karabakh. If Russia leaves Caucasus entirely, this type of conflict will become more prevalent and the whole area will become a war zone.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Ano4

    Medieval mindset, especially in the context of that part of the world, would be strongly religious. Taliban can be considered of that type. Azerbaijan is rather secular, it’s nationalism is probably more early 20th century in nature.

    Replies: @Ano4, @AnonFromTN, @g2k

    , @Dmitry
    @Ano4

    I assume (without reading anything) that the panturkic nationalism views promoted in Azerbaijan currently, are presumably extremely recent (and more response to recent power of Turkey in the last three decades)?

    In the Russian Empire, in the 19th century, Azeris were as high as General-Majors fighting against the Turks.
    https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9D%D0%B0%D1%85%D0%B8%D1%87%D0%B5%D0%B2%D0%B0%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9,_%D0%9A%D0%B5%D0%BB%D0%B1%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B8_%D0%A5%D0%B0%D0%BD_%D0%AD%D1%85%D1%81%D0%B0%D0%BD_%D0%A5%D0%B0%D0%BD_%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%BB%D1%8B#%D0%A0%D1%83%D1%81%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE-%D1%82%D1%83%D1%80%D0%B5%D1%86%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B9%D0%BD%D0%B0


    USSR tried to infuse them with XXth century progressive
     
    And not just "ideology" - they received modern buildings, sanitation, education, opera halls, clean water, sewage systems, medicine, warm water, electricity, roads... even metro lines. In particular, Baku received a lot of beautiful architecture.

    Baku and Erevan were even built metro lines. While Omsk, Chelyabinsk - still don't have metro lines. They built Armenians' a metro line even before starting the construction of the first line in Ekaterinburg (although to be fair, their one looks relatively low budget and unaesthetic in comparison).

    , @Thulean Friend
    @Ano4


    The Caucasus populations have very ancient and complex cultures, but they have been stuck into a medieval mindset before the Russian Empire. USSR tried to infuse them with XXth century progressive ideology, but the effort was abandoned before it yielded any durable results
     
    Armenia is more progressive on abortion than Russia or Ukraine are.

    https://i.redd.it/qlp8n4vg3or51.png

    P.S. Interesting how comparably liberal the Balkanoids are. Any sociological reason for this?

    P.P.S. is it a Slavic thing to use roman 'numbers' to denote dates? I don't see it among anyone else anymore. It's hilarious and a bit backward at the same time.

    Replies: @Ano4, @Europe Europa

  212. @reiner Tor
    @Epigon


    German logistical tail to Moscow was unsustainable
     
    That's questionable, since they lost a lot of time and used up their resources to destroy the Soviet grouping in Ukraine. This meant that when they resumed the attack in October, they had weaker forces at their disposal than they'd have had in late August, and also in October the rasputitsa stopped them for two weeks. Had they been able to continue, the Soviets would've had basically no forces to defend Moscow. Since even as it was, they managed to reach the outskirts of Moscow, capturing or at least encircling Moscow would've certainly happened. We don't know what would've happened afterwards.

    In 1942, RKKA would have been an entirely different affair
     
    The German MIC was growing faster at the time than the Soviet one (the Soviets had already prematurely geared their economy to mass production of weapons, which were getting obsolete very quickly, while the Germans were arguably too late in ramping up production, and in 1940-42 were investing too much in new production capacity), so it's not so sure. Again, it's a "we don't know" situation.

    sucker punches
     
    It's not really a sucker punch, if the enemy has months to prepare. France had been in a state of war with Germany for over half a year, by the time Germany attacked, and the USSR should've known at least two months before Barbarossa about the attack. (Warsaw city traffic was almost completely shut down for over a week in April, 1941, because so many German military columns were marching through the city... The USSR had a consulate there, so if they didn't know about it, it certainly wasn't because of the clever German deception measures. By the way the USSR started partial mobilization already that time.)

    The fact is, the German army was tactically better than any other army at the time, or ever since. It was at the top of its game in June, 1941, after which it started to deteriorate due to slowly losing its most experienced officers and NCOs.

    ------

    However, at the big picture, you are probably correct. (With the above caveats that we really don't know for sure, just have a high probability of it being true.) Probably Germany would've lost, no matter what.

    And even if Germany could've won, they'd have had to do literally everything correct, with very little to no room for errors.

    Replies: @Epigon

    That’s questionable, since they lost a lot of time and used up their resources to destroy the Soviet grouping in Ukraine. This meant that when they resumed the attack in October, they had weaker forces at their disposal than they’d have had in late August, and also in October the rasputitsa stopped them for two weeks. Had they been able to continue, the Soviets would’ve had basically no forces to defend Moscow. Since even as it was, they managed to reach the outskirts of Moscow, capturing or at least encircling Moscow would’ve certainly happened. We don’t know what would’ve happened afterwards.

    We don’t know for sure, but we can reasonably guess. My opinion is grounded in the fact that Germans had to haul everything for hundreds of kilometres on trucks and horse carts. The reason the winter uniforms stayed in Germany while soldiers were freezing – fuel, food, ammunition and reinforcements were higher priority and the logistical chain couldn’t deliver all.

    Lets entertain your proposal on moving onwards to Moscow and leaving the Kiev salient in the background. Moscow as the primary rail junction of the USSR was perfectly positioned to quickly receive Ural, Siberian and Far Eastern divisions, in addition to those raised in the European Russia (the majority of actual manpower which repelled Germans).
    Furthermore – Moscow was an order of magnitude bigger city than Stalingrad, with extensive metro and sewer system.
    Stalingrad devoured an army – Moscow could have devoured an entire army group. And force it to commit to urban, close range attritional struggle where the major German advantage of maneuver warfare proficiency and advanced tactics would count much less.
    Finally, the 600 000 Kiev force was composed of very battle-worthy divisions and would prove a tough nut to crack in case the Panzer divisions went elsewhere. You would be risking Soviets consolidating Ukraine and reinforcing crucial river frontlines.

    The German MIC was growing faster at the time than the Soviet one (the Soviets had already prematurely geared their economy to mass production of weapons, which were getting obsolete very quickly, while the Germans were arguably too late in ramping up production, and in 1940-42 were investing too much in new production capacity), so it’s not so sure. Again, it’s a “we don’t know” situation.

    This is rather dubious if we take a look at the Soviet tank (A-43/T-34M, KV-3/4/6, T-50), plane (LaGG, Pe-2, MiG-3, Yak) and artillery (F-22, ZiS-2, 107 mm) destined to enter service en masse in 1941 and early 1942, as well as the end of the expansion, retraining and reorganization effort.
    The issue you point out relates to 1930s designs which constituted the huge bulk of Soviet inventory on the onset of Barbarossa – T-26, BT-5/7, I-15/153/16, SB-2, 37 and 45 mm AT – which were confirmed as unsatisfactory already during the Winter War.

    It’s not really a sucker punch, if the enemy has months to prepare. France had been in a state of war with Germany for over half a year, by the time Germany attacked, and the USSR should’ve known at least two months before Barbarossa about the attack. (Warsaw city traffic was almost completely shut down for over a week in April, 1941, because so many German military columns were marching through the city… The USSR had a consulate there, so if they didn’t know about it, it certainly wasn’t because of the clever German deception measures. By the way the USSR started partial mobilization already that time.)

    This was more of tongue-in-cheek comment. Every single country which fell prey to German attack had more than enough time to prepare, as well as ample proof of the impending attack.

    Germany most certainly loses in the end, since the USA was actively looking and preparing for a war all the way to late 1930s, when they started commissioning 4-engine bomber designs, fast battleships and carrier task forces, culminating in July 1940 Two Ocean Act.
    The USA alone could have taken on the Axis and annihilated it systematically, even discounting the nuclear bombs.

  213. @Ano4
    @Dmitry

    To be fair, the Caucasus populations have very ancient and complex cultures, but they have been stuck into a medieval mindset before the Russian Empire. USSR tried to infuse them with XXth century progressive ideology, but the effort was abandoned before it yielded any durable results. This is why we have conflicts such as the one in Nagornyi Karabakh. If Russia leaves Caucasus entirely, this type of conflict will become more prevalent and the whole area will become a war zone.

    Replies: @AP, @Dmitry, @Thulean Friend

    Medieval mindset, especially in the context of that part of the world, would be strongly religious. Taliban can be considered of that type. Azerbaijan is rather secular, it’s nationalism is probably more early 20th century in nature.

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @AP

    I agree. Through its interaction with Soviet progressivism, the medieval mindset was transformed into a petty minded aggressive nationalism. It happened in many places in former USSR.

    , @AnonFromTN
    @AP


    Azerbaijan is rather secular
     
    I don’t know about today, but in 1989 they were ridiculously secular. When I saw a green Shia banner there, I asked them whether Azeris are Shia, and they answered that they don’t even know what it means.

    Replies: @AP

    , @g2k
    @AP

    Have you read Ali and Nino, now might be the time if you haven't. The book predates the Soviet Union, but, with the exception of religion, attitudes don't seem to have changed that much. The main character swaps between using Azerbaijani and Tatar to describe himself, though that might be down to translation. It's a good read; every character in it is hateful. Not sure if they ever found out who wrote it.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @AaronB

  214. @AP
    @Ano4

    Medieval mindset, especially in the context of that part of the world, would be strongly religious. Taliban can be considered of that type. Azerbaijan is rather secular, it’s nationalism is probably more early 20th century in nature.

    Replies: @Ano4, @AnonFromTN, @g2k

    I agree. Through its interaction with Soviet progressivism, the medieval mindset was transformed into a petty minded aggressive nationalism. It happened in many places in former USSR.

    • Agree: AltanBakshi
  215. @Mikhail
    @Ano4

    According to English Wiki, Kabaeva was born in Uzbekistan and is of Tatar and Russian backgrounds.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alina_Kabaeva

    Replies: @Ano4

    The Azeri were called Caucasus ot Nakhichevan Tatars in Russian Empire. This appellation was used well into the 1930ies. When discussing Azerbaijan, Stalin usually calls its Muslim population Tatars. The Azeri nation is a byproduct of Soviet nation-building.

    Anyway, my comment about Kabaeva was humorous.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Ano4

    After the Revolution my wife’s Russian great-grandparents “laundered” their status as Volga merchants by escaping down the Volga and settling in Baku. The process was successful, they escaped persecution had they stayed behind, and they moved back to Russia after a few years.

    My wife says that her great-grandmother referred to Azeris derogatively as “Persuky.”

    Replies: @Ano4, @Mr. Hack

  216. @Ano4
    @Mikhail

    The Azeri were called Caucasus ot Nakhichevan Tatars in Russian Empire. This appellation was used well into the 1930ies. When discussing Azerbaijan, Stalin usually calls its Muslim population Tatars. The Azeri nation is a byproduct of Soviet nation-building.

    Anyway, my comment about Kabaeva was humorous.

    Replies: @AP

    After the Revolution my wife’s Russian great-grandparents “laundered” their status as Volga merchants by escaping down the Volga and settling in Baku. The process was successful, they escaped persecution had they stayed behind, and they moved back to Russia after a few years.

    My wife says that her great-grandmother referred to Azeris derogatively as “Persuky.”

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @AP

    Probably being from the Volga region, your wife's relatives saw Azeri as strongly influenced by the Persian culture as compared to the Volga region Turkic peoples.

    , @Mr. Hack
    @AP

    An immigrant Ukrainian friend of mine has in his employ an Azerbaijani personal aide companion, that immigrated from the Baku region. Fishing and mushroom foraging trips to the lake country are often exchanged for undone housework. :-) He's very proud of his Persian roots and his ability to converse in several languages, including Ukrainian and Russian. As a young man he served in the Soviet military and was stationed mostly in Western Ukraine. He appears to come from an upper class family and counts his father and grandparents as part of the Azerbaijani intellectual elite, being at one time university professors and writers. When I first met him, I christened him with his new name of "Persik" that was common among our circle of friends (having a nickname). Everybody thought that it was a cute name and understood that in Ukrainian "persik" means a "peach". I'll be bold and try the "persuky" on him the next time that I see him. :-)

    Replies: @Ano4, @AnonFromTN

  217. @AP
    @Ano4

    After the Revolution my wife’s Russian great-grandparents “laundered” their status as Volga merchants by escaping down the Volga and settling in Baku. The process was successful, they escaped persecution had they stayed behind, and they moved back to Russia after a few years.

    My wife says that her great-grandmother referred to Azeris derogatively as “Persuky.”

    Replies: @Ano4, @Mr. Hack

    Probably being from the Volga region, your wife’s relatives saw Azeri as strongly influenced by the Persian culture as compared to the Volga region Turkic peoples.

  218. @Ano4
    @reiner Tor

    In the early 80ies nobody would have believed that USSR would not exist 10 years later. Around 1910 nobody would have believed that Russian Empire would succumb to a revolution and dissolve in a bloody civil war. Nobody knows what will happen after Putin. Unpredictability is a feature of the modern Russian history.

    Replies: @mal

    Works the other way too.

    Not many people in 1919 would have guessed that Russians would be storming Berlin, inventing ICBMs that could end the world, and putting the first man in space in a few short decades.

    Similar, when Sweden wrecked Russian Army at Narva in 1700 and then destroyed Russian allies, I bet most people were thinking 18th century would be Swedish Imperial century. That didn’t quite work out that way.

    • Agree: AltanBakshi, Ano4
  219. @AP
    @Ano4

    After the Revolution my wife’s Russian great-grandparents “laundered” their status as Volga merchants by escaping down the Volga and settling in Baku. The process was successful, they escaped persecution had they stayed behind, and they moved back to Russia after a few years.

    My wife says that her great-grandmother referred to Azeris derogatively as “Persuky.”

    Replies: @Ano4, @Mr. Hack

    An immigrant Ukrainian friend of mine has in his employ an Azerbaijani personal aide companion, that immigrated from the Baku region. Fishing and mushroom foraging trips to the lake country are often exchanged for undone housework. 🙂 He’s very proud of his Persian roots and his ability to converse in several languages, including Ukrainian and Russian. As a young man he served in the Soviet military and was stationed mostly in Western Ukraine. He appears to come from an upper class family and counts his father and grandparents as part of the Azerbaijani intellectual elite, being at one time university professors and writers. When I first met him, I christened him with his new name of “Persik” that was common among our circle of friends (having a nickname). Everybody thought that it was a cute name and understood that in Ukrainian “persik” means a “peach”. I’ll be bold and try the “persuky” on him the next time that I see him. 🙂

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @Mr. Hack

    Persuky might also be a wordplay on Persian and barsuky (Russian for badgers) = persian badgers.

    , @AnonFromTN
    @Mr. Hack

    Now, let’s look at numbers.
    Ukraine population: 2020 (official number) – 41,785,800; 1989 – 51,700,000; 1970 – 47,200,000; 1950 – 37,297,600; 1944 – 33,500,000; 1941 – 42,000,000; 1922 – 26,200,000.

    So, between 1922 and 1941 the population grew by 15.8 million (~60%) (how plausible does the holodomor narrative sound?). Between 1941 and 1944 it decreased by 8.5 million (~20%) – there was WWII. Under Soviet “oppression” from 1944 to 1989 it increased by 18.2 million (by 54%). After independence it decreased even by official count by ~9.9 million (~20%). Thus, hard numbers say that so called independence was a calamity comparable to WWII.

    Replies: @AP, @Mr. Hack

  220. @Dmitry
    Erdogan seemed increasingly noisy and aggressive this year. Maybe his gerontologist has overdone giving him testosterone injections.

    This weekend, he has also had time to say something rude about the Saudi Arabia, and now Saudis are asking their citizens to boycott Turkey.


    Saudi Arabia calls upon citizens to 'boycott everything Turkish' following Erdogan's statement

    Saudi authorities called upon citizens to "boycott everything Turkish" following a statement by Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan where he accused some Gulf countries of pursuing policies that were destabilising the region, Gulf News reported on Saturday.

    “The boycott of everything Turkish, whether on the level of import, investment or tourism, is the responsibility of every Saudi — trader and consumer — in response to the continued hostility of the Turkish government against our leadership, our country and our citizens,” Saudi Arabia’s Chamber of Commerce head Ajlan Al Ajlan said in a tweet.
     

    https://www.dawn.com/news/1583215/saudi-arabia-calls-upon-citizens-to-boycott-everything-turkish-following-erdogans-statement

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    Here’s an interesting article about Erdogan, especially how he is openly compared to Saddam three decades ago…

    https://nationalinterest.org/feature/clash-turkey-becoming-inevitable-170143

    Also, it looks like diversity is not Germany’s greatest strength:

    “Diplomats say privately that Merkel’s bigger fears are that Turkey might utilize refugees as cover to precipitate violence inside Germany, or that Erdoğan might incite Germany’s large ethnic Turkish population.”

  221. @Mr. Hack
    @Ano4

    It's certainly true that there were famines before the 1930's in other parts of the Soviet Union that included other ethnicities than just Ukrainians, but none as widespread and devastating as the one experienced by Ukrainians in Ukraine during 1930-1933 (holodomor). Besides the sheer numbers involved of victims of starvation (4-6M), the fact that an enormous simultaneous extermination of Ukraine's intelligentsia was taking place concurrently, indicates that Stalin's actions in Ukraine were more than just the pacification of recalcitrant peasants that were resisting collectivization. Also, I'm not aware of any other famine that took place within the Soviet Union where a blockade was set up on the border between Russia and other republics as there was with Ukraine where starving Ukrainian peasants were captured and turned back to the starvation back at home. Apparently, at the very same time that the agricultural regions of the Russian heartland were not experiencing anything similar as regards food appropriation resulting in massive starvation. In Stalin's own words:


    If we do not immediately take charge of straightening out the situation in Ukraine, we could lose Ukraine. Bear in mind that Pilsudski never rests, his espionage capabilities in Ukraine are much stronger than Redens and Kosior realize. And remember too that, in the Ukrainian Communist Party (500 000 members, ha ha !), we find no few (no, no few!) rotten types, conscious and unconscious ‘petliurites’, as well as direct agents of Pilsudski. As soon as things get worse, these elements will lose no time in opening up a front within (and outside) the Party, against the Party. The worst of it is that the Ukrainian leaders are oblivious to these dangers (Khlevniuk, 2001: 273-274).
     
    It becomes apparent that in Stalin's mind the famine was just another tool to be used against the Ukrainian peasantry, the bulwark of the Ukrainian national idea:

    For Stalin, the Ukrainian peasant question was “in essence, a national question, the peasants constituting the principal force of the national movement” (Stalin, 1954: 71). By crushing the peasantry, one was breaking the most powerful national movement capable of opposing the process of the construction of the USSR. As the famine decimated the Ukrainian peasantry, the regime condemned the entire policy of Ukrainization underway since the early 1920s: The Ukrainian elites were rounded up and arrested.
     
    https://www.sciencespo.fr/mass-violence-war-massacre-resistance/fr/document/great-ukrainian-famine-1932-33.html

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

    I wonder how perverse Ukies can get with straight face. So, here is my question: was the severe famine in Ukrainian areas of Poland, which occurred at the same time as alleged Holodomor, also Stalin’s fault?

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @AnonFromTN

    A far as I know, there wasn't any severe famine or hunger in either Polish or Romanian controlled Ukrainian ethnographic territories commensurate with what was going on in Soviet Ukraine. Crops during 1930-1933 were certainly not robust anywhere in Ukraine, but it was more the insane requisitioning policies instituted in Moscow to make the unrealistic grain quotas that was the real killer that was the greatest problem in Soviet Ukraine. Contrasting Western Ukraine and Eastern Soviet Ukraine is actually a good exercise that proves that with similiar crop outputs the populatons in the Western part of Ukrainian ethnographic territories were not subjugated to the massive starvation that one could find in Central and Eastern Ukraine. As the agricultural lands in the Central and Eastern parts of Ukraine included the most rich black earth agricultural areas that could be used, this should never have happened. It was the policies set in Moscow that resulted in the devastation in Soviet Ukraine. Galicians were actually trying to help their kin across the border by organizing relief efforts that were being turned down at the border, because guys like you would insist that there actually was no famine going on within Soviet Ukraine. You're still trying to deny that what can't be denied, Professor. :-(

    Replies: @AP, @Ano4

  222. @Mr. Hack
    @AP

    An immigrant Ukrainian friend of mine has in his employ an Azerbaijani personal aide companion, that immigrated from the Baku region. Fishing and mushroom foraging trips to the lake country are often exchanged for undone housework. :-) He's very proud of his Persian roots and his ability to converse in several languages, including Ukrainian and Russian. As a young man he served in the Soviet military and was stationed mostly in Western Ukraine. He appears to come from an upper class family and counts his father and grandparents as part of the Azerbaijani intellectual elite, being at one time university professors and writers. When I first met him, I christened him with his new name of "Persik" that was common among our circle of friends (having a nickname). Everybody thought that it was a cute name and understood that in Ukrainian "persik" means a "peach". I'll be bold and try the "persuky" on him the next time that I see him. :-)

    Replies: @Ano4, @AnonFromTN

    Persuky might also be a wordplay on Persian and barsuky (Russian for badgers) = persian badgers.

  223. @AP
    @Ano4

    Medieval mindset, especially in the context of that part of the world, would be strongly religious. Taliban can be considered of that type. Azerbaijan is rather secular, it’s nationalism is probably more early 20th century in nature.

    Replies: @Ano4, @AnonFromTN, @g2k

    Azerbaijan is rather secular

    I don’t know about today, but in 1989 they were ridiculously secular. When I saw a green Shia banner there, I asked them whether Azeris are Shia, and they answered that they don’t even know what it means.

    • Replies: @AP
    @AnonFromTN

    They are very secular, but maintain a sense of modesty that isn’t found among Slavs. Even on a hot day in summer girls were wearing long rather than short skirts, and men often wore long collared shirts. This had more of an anachronistic formality to it, rather than a religious feel. The only hijabs I saw seem to have been worn by visiting Gulf Arabs. Probably because of the oil industry, there were a few of them with their families staying in the nicest hotels.

    Wine was plentiful and Azeris were proud of their cognac - naturally they insisted that their Gold Baku was better than Armenian Ararat. I think Bagration from Dagestan beats them both.

    Azeris struck me as nationalistic (they bragged about having the largest flag in the world) rather than religious, and this war seems to be more of a nationalistic one as in Europe 100 years ago than a holy war as conducted by Muslims in Syria, Iraq, etc.

  224. @AP
    @Ano4

    Medieval mindset, especially in the context of that part of the world, would be strongly religious. Taliban can be considered of that type. Azerbaijan is rather secular, it’s nationalism is probably more early 20th century in nature.

    Replies: @Ano4, @AnonFromTN, @g2k

    Have you read Ali and Nino, now might be the time if you haven’t. The book predates the Soviet Union, but, with the exception of religion, attitudes don’t seem to have changed that much. The main character swaps between using Azerbaijani and Tatar to describe himself, though that might be down to translation. It’s a good read; every character in it is hateful. Not sure if they ever found out who wrote it.

    • Thanks: AP
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @g2k

    The author of the book that you're seeking is Lev Nussimbaum. His colorful, if
    not checkered career began with his childhood in Baku. He was born a Russian Jew, became a Moslem sultan of sorts named Esam Bey, lived in Nazi Germany and even spent a good stint in Hollywood, hobnobbing with the local hoi polloi and royalty too. He wrote several books and ended his exotic career, if memory serves me correctly, taken to the pipe filled with opium somewhere on the Adriatic Coast of Italy . His colorful biography won several awards and was written by Tom Reiss, and is appropriately titled: "The Orientalist: Solving the Mystery of a Strange and Dangerous Life." A highly entertaining read, and very recommended.

    https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-zVHTdr95EJg/XJUObEAiE-I/AAAAAAAAjdA/4SJDGjW-n5o6QPjnpHnYFRjHBNuL5CmfwCLcBGAs/s1600/51f8OvUshwL._SX334_BO1%252C204%252C203%252C200_.jpg

    "Kurban Said" was one of several pseudonyms that Lev Nussimbaum wrote under.

    , @AaronB
    @g2k


    every character in it is hateful. N
     
    A beautiful book. Amazing how people can have such different responses.
  225. @AnonFromTN
    @Mr. Hack

    I wonder how perverse Ukies can get with straight face. So, here is my question: was the severe famine in Ukrainian areas of Poland, which occurred at the same time as alleged Holodomor, also Stalin’s fault?

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    A far as I know, there wasn’t any severe famine or hunger in either Polish or Romanian controlled Ukrainian ethnographic territories commensurate with what was going on in Soviet Ukraine. Crops during 1930-1933 were certainly not robust anywhere in Ukraine, but it was more the insane requisitioning policies instituted in Moscow to make the unrealistic grain quotas that was the real killer that was the greatest problem in Soviet Ukraine. Contrasting Western Ukraine and Eastern Soviet Ukraine is actually a good exercise that proves that with similiar crop outputs the populatons in the Western part of Ukrainian ethnographic territories were not subjugated to the massive starvation that one could find in Central and Eastern Ukraine. As the agricultural lands in the Central and Eastern parts of Ukraine included the most rich black earth agricultural areas that could be used, this should never have happened. It was the policies set in Moscow that resulted in the devastation in Soviet Ukraine. Galicians were actually trying to help their kin across the border by organizing relief efforts that were being turned down at the border, because guys like you would insist that there actually was no famine going on within Soviet Ukraine. You’re still trying to deny that what can’t be denied, Professor. 🙁

    • Replies: @AP
    @Mr. Hack


    A far as I know, there wasn’t any severe famine or hunger in either Polish or Romanian controlled Ukrainian ethnographic territories commensurate with what was going on in Soviet Ukraine
     
    Correct. There was a period of crop failure and food deprivation in some parts of Polish Galicia between the wars which was bad enough that an estimated 20,000 people died of starvation or malnutrition. It is absurd to compare this to the scale of what happened across the border. Some Soviet apologists compare the Dust Bowl in USA to mass starvation too, so it’s not surprising that this was brought up.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    , @Ano4
    @Mr. Hack

    There was a severe and organized famine in USSR at the time. My grandmother in Penza region had to sustain herself with bark from the trees and edible grass taken in the fields plus the usual mushrooms, which so often come to the rescue of the Russian peasant in the times of hardship. The famine was organized for several interesting reasons:



    1) The civil war ended with the victory of the Bolshevik, but their victory was far from being absolute. On the major part of the Soviet territories the peasantry was in a state of armed rebellion and militancy with the so-called Green Armies (armed peasantry partisan militias) causing a lot of trouble to the Soviet regime. Suffice to say that Red officers, such as Tukhachevsky, needed armored trains, artillery and even chemical warfare to quell the peasant rebellion in some of the regions.

    2) The Bolshevik were clever people and to calm the situation a bit declared the New Economic Policy (NEP) which greatly benefited the peasantry because it allowed them to sell the produce from the lands that these peasants violently expropriated from Tzar era landowners. The peasants became quite fat and happy and started to cozy up to the Soviet regime. The peasants thought that the worse was over and those among them who participated in the Green Armies militancy disarmed. In the NEP era the growth of the Soviet economy was absolutely outstanding in all its sectors with the significant outlier being the heavy industry and armaments.

    3) NEP created an interesting situation: the countryside was actually growing rich6than the cities and this allowed the peasants to start again reproducing like rabbits, while toiling their lands without any motivation to join the proletariat in its fight for a Worldwide Shining Tomorrow.

    4) Something needed being done to force the peasants out of the land and into the heavy industry workforce. Otherwise USSR was lagging behind compared to the Western Imperialist Predators, which would certainly sooner rather than later try to eat the Soviets for breakfast. At the same time, agriculture needed being modernized towards more productivity and mechanization. But peasants didn't care for the Muh Tractors of the Bolshevik propaganda. Peasants were happy without any tractors, their horses and cows were more than enough for them.

    5) To kill many birds with a single stone, the collectivization, extermination of the kulaks as a class and a heavy handed expropriation of the agricultural production were applied simultaneously by the Soviets, while the NEP was curtailed. The peasants who did not expect being fleeced again by the Reds, got caught by surprise and starved in the millions. The Soviet power was strong enough and it was impossible to rebel arms in hand like in the early 20ies.

    6) The peasants (at the time the majority of the Soviet population) became Kolkhoz slaves, toiling the land without receiving much benefit from their work. They had no documents allowing them to leave their villages and the propiska system prevented them from moving to the cities. Except for the young and the brightest who could use the pretence of studying in the cities and working in the giant projects such as Magnitka to extricate themselves from the Kolkhoz slavery.

    7) The agricultural production purchased at a very low cost from the Kolkhoz allowed for exports to generate the cashflow to purchase industrial equipment for the Soviet heavy industry and nascent MIC.

    My grandmother was one of the young peasants who managed to extricate herself from the Kolkhoz slavery. She managed to steal her passport from the Kolkhoz administration and run away to Leningrad where her high grades at the village school allowed her to get into an iinstitute.Her relatives who stayed behind were Kolkhoz slaves well into the 1950ies...

    That's the story of why Soviet peasants got starved, enslaved and exploited to build an industrialized country at a breakneck pace.

    And it all had nothing whatsoever to do with these peasants being specifically Ukrainian, Russian or Tatar...

    Replies: @AP, @Mr. Hack

  226. @Mr. Hack
    @AnonFromTN

    A far as I know, there wasn't any severe famine or hunger in either Polish or Romanian controlled Ukrainian ethnographic territories commensurate with what was going on in Soviet Ukraine. Crops during 1930-1933 were certainly not robust anywhere in Ukraine, but it was more the insane requisitioning policies instituted in Moscow to make the unrealistic grain quotas that was the real killer that was the greatest problem in Soviet Ukraine. Contrasting Western Ukraine and Eastern Soviet Ukraine is actually a good exercise that proves that with similiar crop outputs the populatons in the Western part of Ukrainian ethnographic territories were not subjugated to the massive starvation that one could find in Central and Eastern Ukraine. As the agricultural lands in the Central and Eastern parts of Ukraine included the most rich black earth agricultural areas that could be used, this should never have happened. It was the policies set in Moscow that resulted in the devastation in Soviet Ukraine. Galicians were actually trying to help their kin across the border by organizing relief efforts that were being turned down at the border, because guys like you would insist that there actually was no famine going on within Soviet Ukraine. You're still trying to deny that what can't be denied, Professor. :-(

    Replies: @AP, @Ano4

    A far as I know, there wasn’t any severe famine or hunger in either Polish or Romanian controlled Ukrainian ethnographic territories commensurate with what was going on in Soviet Ukraine

    Correct. There was a period of crop failure and food deprivation in some parts of Polish Galicia between the wars which was bad enough that an estimated 20,000 people died of starvation or malnutrition. It is absurd to compare this to the scale of what happened across the border. Some Soviet apologists compare the Dust Bowl in USA to mass starvation too, so it’s not surprising that this was brought up.

    • Agree: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @AP

    Do you know what years these crop failures took place? If somewhere in 1930-33, then one could definitely make some analogies and comparisons with Soviet Ukraine. From my research on the subject, the biggest cause of the severe famine was the draconian grain requisitioning that was ordered from the top by Stalin and his people in Moscow, that was never lessened during this period of time. They squeezed the peasants as hard as they could, and will live in eternal infamy as the perpetrators of this artificial famine.

    Replies: @AP

  227. @AnonFromTN
    @AP


    Azerbaijan is rather secular
     
    I don’t know about today, but in 1989 they were ridiculously secular. When I saw a green Shia banner there, I asked them whether Azeris are Shia, and they answered that they don’t even know what it means.

    Replies: @AP

    They are very secular, but maintain a sense of modesty that isn’t found among Slavs. Even on a hot day in summer girls were wearing long rather than short skirts, and men often wore long collared shirts. This had more of an anachronistic formality to it, rather than a religious feel. The only hijabs I saw seem to have been worn by visiting Gulf Arabs. Probably because of the oil industry, there were a few of them with their families staying in the nicest hotels.

    Wine was plentiful and Azeris were proud of their cognac – naturally they insisted that their Gold Baku was better than Armenian Ararat. I think Bagration from Dagestan beats them both.

    Azeris struck me as nationalistic (they bragged about having the largest flag in the world) rather than religious, and this war seems to be more of a nationalistic one as in Europe 100 years ago than a holy war as conducted by Muslims in Syria, Iraq, etc.

  228. @g2k
    @AP

    Have you read Ali and Nino, now might be the time if you haven't. The book predates the Soviet Union, but, with the exception of religion, attitudes don't seem to have changed that much. The main character swaps between using Azerbaijani and Tatar to describe himself, though that might be down to translation. It's a good read; every character in it is hateful. Not sure if they ever found out who wrote it.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @AaronB

    The author of the book that you’re seeking is Lev Nussimbaum. His colorful, if
    not checkered career began with his childhood in Baku. He was born a Russian Jew, became a Moslem sultan of sorts named Esam Bey, lived in Nazi Germany and even spent a good stint in Hollywood, hobnobbing with the local hoi polloi and royalty too. He wrote several books and ended his exotic career, if memory serves me correctly, taken to the pipe filled with opium somewhere on the Adriatic Coast of Italy . His colorful biography won several awards and was written by Tom Reiss, and is appropriately titled: “The Orientalist: Solving the Mystery of a Strange and Dangerous Life.” A highly entertaining read, and very recommended.

    “Kurban Said” was one of several pseudonyms that Lev Nussimbaum wrote under.

  229. @AP
    @Mr. Hack


    A far as I know, there wasn’t any severe famine or hunger in either Polish or Romanian controlled Ukrainian ethnographic territories commensurate with what was going on in Soviet Ukraine
     
    Correct. There was a period of crop failure and food deprivation in some parts of Polish Galicia between the wars which was bad enough that an estimated 20,000 people died of starvation or malnutrition. It is absurd to compare this to the scale of what happened across the border. Some Soviet apologists compare the Dust Bowl in USA to mass starvation too, so it’s not surprising that this was brought up.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    Do you know what years these crop failures took place? If somewhere in 1930-33, then one could definitely make some analogies and comparisons with Soviet Ukraine. From my research on the subject, the biggest cause of the severe famine was the draconian grain requisitioning that was ordered from the top by Stalin and his people in Moscow, that was never lessened during this period of time. They squeezed the peasants as hard as they could, and will live in eternal infamy as the perpetrators of this artificial famine.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Mr. Hack

    I recall reading about it awhile ago. I quick search on google reveals a flood of information about the Holodomor so this will be time-consuming to find (I don't feel like spending a lot of time digging this up).

    The population of the three Polish provinces of Lwow, Stanislawow and Wolyn was 6.6 million in 1931. The population of the Ukrainian SSR was 31 million in 1931. So about 5 times larger. So 20,000 people dying of malnutrition in Polish-controlled Ukrainian territory would be about 100,000 dead on the scale of the Ukrainian SSR. However, the estimates of dead from the 1932-1933 famine in the Ukrainian SSR was 2.6 to 4 million. It was orders of magnitude worse.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  230. @Mr. Hack
    @AP

    Do you know what years these crop failures took place? If somewhere in 1930-33, then one could definitely make some analogies and comparisons with Soviet Ukraine. From my research on the subject, the biggest cause of the severe famine was the draconian grain requisitioning that was ordered from the top by Stalin and his people in Moscow, that was never lessened during this period of time. They squeezed the peasants as hard as they could, and will live in eternal infamy as the perpetrators of this artificial famine.

    Replies: @AP

    I recall reading about it awhile ago. I quick search on google reveals a flood of information about the Holodomor so this will be time-consuming to find (I don’t feel like spending a lot of time digging this up).

    The population of the three Polish provinces of Lwow, Stanislawow and Wolyn was 6.6 million in 1931. The population of the Ukrainian SSR was 31 million in 1931. So about 5 times larger. So 20,000 people dying of malnutrition in Polish-controlled Ukrainian territory would be about 100,000 dead on the scale of the Ukrainian SSR. However, the estimates of dead from the 1932-1933 famine in the Ukrainian SSR was 2.6 to 4 million. It was orders of magnitude worse.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @AP

    Actually, I think that the "official" estimates range from 2.6M to 6M (some a high as 10M!). The mid-point of 4M seems to be where most modern scholars place the figures.

    I realize that there's a lot of new information coming out all of the time regarding the Holodomor. I too did some research on the same question and couldn't locate any hard numbers as to Polish-Ukraine. That's why I asked you, knowing that if anybody knows you might, you being very good with numbers and statistics. Please, don't waste anymore of your time right now, but if you just happen to cross it later don't hesitate to let me know.

    Replies: @AP

  231. @AP
    @Mr. Hack

    I recall reading about it awhile ago. I quick search on google reveals a flood of information about the Holodomor so this will be time-consuming to find (I don't feel like spending a lot of time digging this up).

    The population of the three Polish provinces of Lwow, Stanislawow and Wolyn was 6.6 million in 1931. The population of the Ukrainian SSR was 31 million in 1931. So about 5 times larger. So 20,000 people dying of malnutrition in Polish-controlled Ukrainian territory would be about 100,000 dead on the scale of the Ukrainian SSR. However, the estimates of dead from the 1932-1933 famine in the Ukrainian SSR was 2.6 to 4 million. It was orders of magnitude worse.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    Actually, I think that the “official” estimates range from 2.6M to 6M (some a high as 10M!). The mid-point of 4M seems to be where most modern scholars place the figures.

    I realize that there’s a lot of new information coming out all of the time regarding the Holodomor. I too did some research on the same question and couldn’t locate any hard numbers as to Polish-Ukraine. That’s why I asked you, knowing that if anybody knows you might, you being very good with numbers and statistics. Please, don’t waste anymore of your time right now, but if you just happen to cross it later don’t hesitate to let me know.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Mr. Hack

    Demographers and historians poring through the archives arrived at a much lower estimate of 2.6 to 4 million; politicians such as Yushchenko have claimed much larger numbers.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  232. @Mr. Hack
    @AnonFromTN

    A far as I know, there wasn't any severe famine or hunger in either Polish or Romanian controlled Ukrainian ethnographic territories commensurate with what was going on in Soviet Ukraine. Crops during 1930-1933 were certainly not robust anywhere in Ukraine, but it was more the insane requisitioning policies instituted in Moscow to make the unrealistic grain quotas that was the real killer that was the greatest problem in Soviet Ukraine. Contrasting Western Ukraine and Eastern Soviet Ukraine is actually a good exercise that proves that with similiar crop outputs the populatons in the Western part of Ukrainian ethnographic territories were not subjugated to the massive starvation that one could find in Central and Eastern Ukraine. As the agricultural lands in the Central and Eastern parts of Ukraine included the most rich black earth agricultural areas that could be used, this should never have happened. It was the policies set in Moscow that resulted in the devastation in Soviet Ukraine. Galicians were actually trying to help their kin across the border by organizing relief efforts that were being turned down at the border, because guys like you would insist that there actually was no famine going on within Soviet Ukraine. You're still trying to deny that what can't be denied, Professor. :-(

    Replies: @AP, @Ano4

    There was a severe and organized famine in USSR at the time. My grandmother in Penza region had to sustain herself with bark from the trees and edible grass taken in the fields plus the usual mushrooms, which so often come to the rescue of the Russian peasant in the times of hardship. The famine was organized for several interesting reasons:

    [MORE]

    1) The civil war ended with the victory of the Bolshevik, but their victory was far from being absolute. On the major part of the Soviet territories the peasantry was in a state of armed rebellion and militancy with the so-called Green Armies (armed peasantry partisan militias) causing a lot of trouble to the Soviet regime. Suffice to say that Red officers, such as Tukhachevsky, needed armored trains, artillery and even chemical warfare to quell the peasant rebellion in some of the regions.

    2) The Bolshevik were clever people and to calm the situation a bit declared the New Economic Policy (NEP) which greatly benefited the peasantry because it allowed them to sell the produce from the lands that these peasants violently expropriated from Tzar era landowners. The peasants became quite fat and happy and started to cozy up to the Soviet regime. The peasants thought that the worse was over and those among them who participated in the Green Armies militancy disarmed. In the NEP era the growth of the Soviet economy was absolutely outstanding in all its sectors with the significant outlier being the heavy industry and armaments.

    3) NEP created an interesting situation: the countryside was actually growing rich6than the cities and this allowed the peasants to start again reproducing like rabbits, while toiling their lands without any motivation to join the proletariat in its fight for a Worldwide Shining Tomorrow.

    4) Something needed being done to force the peasants out of the land and into the heavy industry workforce. Otherwise USSR was lagging behind compared to the Western Imperialist Predators, which would certainly sooner rather than later try to eat the Soviets for breakfast. At the same time, agriculture needed being modernized towards more productivity and mechanization. But peasants didn’t care for the Muh Tractors of the Bolshevik propaganda. Peasants were happy without any tractors, their horses and cows were more than enough for them.

    5) To kill many birds with a single stone, the collectivization, extermination of the kulaks as a class and a heavy handed expropriation of the agricultural production were applied simultaneously by the Soviets, while the NEP was curtailed. The peasants who did not expect being fleeced again by the Reds, got caught by surprise and starved in the millions. The Soviet power was strong enough and it was impossible to rebel arms in hand like in the early 20ies.

    6) The peasants (at the time the majority of the Soviet population) became Kolkhoz slaves, toiling the land without receiving much benefit from their work. They had no documents allowing them to leave their villages and the propiska system prevented them from moving to the cities. Except for the young and the brightest who could use the pretence of studying in the cities and working in the giant projects such as Magnitka to extricate themselves from the Kolkhoz slavery.

    7) The agricultural production purchased at a very low cost from the Kolkhoz allowed for exports to generate the cashflow to purchase industrial equipment for the Soviet heavy industry and nascent MIC.

    My grandmother was one of the young peasants who managed to extricate herself from the Kolkhoz slavery. She managed to steal her passport from the Kolkhoz administration and run away to Leningrad where her high grades at the village school allowed her to get into an iinstitute.Her relatives who stayed behind were Kolkhoz slaves well into the 1950ies…

    That’s the story of why Soviet peasants got starved, enslaved and exploited to build an industrialized country at a breakneck pace.

    And it all had nothing whatsoever to do with these peasants being specifically Ukrainian, Russian or Tatar…

    • Thanks: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @AP
    @Ano4

    Mostly correct, but policies were harsher in the Ukrainian SSR and Ukrainians were a disproportionate percentage of the dead (Ukrainians were about 30% of the Soviet population but about 50% of the victims of the Soviet famine). That this coincided with the mass executions of Ukrainian cultural figures suggests a decent but not airtight case that there was a national aspect to this. OTOH there is no order specifically targeting Ukrainians.

    Remember that just because Nazis targeted Poles and other Slavs also, does not mean that they didn’t target Jews.

    Replies: @Ano4

    , @Mr. Hack
    @Ano4

    Good for your Grandmother and too bad for the rest of your family. I'll have to agree with AP and many other dedicated scholars that because of the added element of purging Ukraine of 10's of thousands of its intelligentsia, there was a slightly different emphasis in Ukraine that pointed to perhaps even more sinister foresight involved in the Ukrainian tragedy (also the numbers were quite a bit higher too). The eminent scholar Raphael Lemkin whose work underpinned the U.N.'s "Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide and the Soviet Genocide in Ukraine" wholeheartedly felt that what transpired in Ukraine constituted a classic case of genocide. He, being Jew, does not fit the description of your classic Ukrainian nationalist.

    Having said this, I don't think that there should be anything precluding Ukrainians from commemorating their great tragedy with Russians or other ethnicities within the Soviet Union or even beyond the borders of this truly historic "prison of nations'. The more all people reflect on the nature of these tragedies, the better.

    Replies: @Ano4

  233. @Ano4
    @Mr. Hack

    There was a severe and organized famine in USSR at the time. My grandmother in Penza region had to sustain herself with bark from the trees and edible grass taken in the fields plus the usual mushrooms, which so often come to the rescue of the Russian peasant in the times of hardship. The famine was organized for several interesting reasons:



    1) The civil war ended with the victory of the Bolshevik, but their victory was far from being absolute. On the major part of the Soviet territories the peasantry was in a state of armed rebellion and militancy with the so-called Green Armies (armed peasantry partisan militias) causing a lot of trouble to the Soviet regime. Suffice to say that Red officers, such as Tukhachevsky, needed armored trains, artillery and even chemical warfare to quell the peasant rebellion in some of the regions.

    2) The Bolshevik were clever people and to calm the situation a bit declared the New Economic Policy (NEP) which greatly benefited the peasantry because it allowed them to sell the produce from the lands that these peasants violently expropriated from Tzar era landowners. The peasants became quite fat and happy and started to cozy up to the Soviet regime. The peasants thought that the worse was over and those among them who participated in the Green Armies militancy disarmed. In the NEP era the growth of the Soviet economy was absolutely outstanding in all its sectors with the significant outlier being the heavy industry and armaments.

    3) NEP created an interesting situation: the countryside was actually growing rich6than the cities and this allowed the peasants to start again reproducing like rabbits, while toiling their lands without any motivation to join the proletariat in its fight for a Worldwide Shining Tomorrow.

    4) Something needed being done to force the peasants out of the land and into the heavy industry workforce. Otherwise USSR was lagging behind compared to the Western Imperialist Predators, which would certainly sooner rather than later try to eat the Soviets for breakfast. At the same time, agriculture needed being modernized towards more productivity and mechanization. But peasants didn't care for the Muh Tractors of the Bolshevik propaganda. Peasants were happy without any tractors, their horses and cows were more than enough for them.

    5) To kill many birds with a single stone, the collectivization, extermination of the kulaks as a class and a heavy handed expropriation of the agricultural production were applied simultaneously by the Soviets, while the NEP was curtailed. The peasants who did not expect being fleeced again by the Reds, got caught by surprise and starved in the millions. The Soviet power was strong enough and it was impossible to rebel arms in hand like in the early 20ies.

    6) The peasants (at the time the majority of the Soviet population) became Kolkhoz slaves, toiling the land without receiving much benefit from their work. They had no documents allowing them to leave their villages and the propiska system prevented them from moving to the cities. Except for the young and the brightest who could use the pretence of studying in the cities and working in the giant projects such as Magnitka to extricate themselves from the Kolkhoz slavery.

    7) The agricultural production purchased at a very low cost from the Kolkhoz allowed for exports to generate the cashflow to purchase industrial equipment for the Soviet heavy industry and nascent MIC.

    My grandmother was one of the young peasants who managed to extricate herself from the Kolkhoz slavery. She managed to steal her passport from the Kolkhoz administration and run away to Leningrad where her high grades at the village school allowed her to get into an iinstitute.Her relatives who stayed behind were Kolkhoz slaves well into the 1950ies...

    That's the story of why Soviet peasants got starved, enslaved and exploited to build an industrialized country at a breakneck pace.

    And it all had nothing whatsoever to do with these peasants being specifically Ukrainian, Russian or Tatar...

    Replies: @AP, @Mr. Hack

    Mostly correct, but policies were harsher in the Ukrainian SSR and Ukrainians were a disproportionate percentage of the dead (Ukrainians were about 30% of the Soviet population but about 50% of the victims of the Soviet famine). That this coincided with the mass executions of Ukrainian cultural figures suggests a decent but not airtight case that there was a national aspect to this. OTOH there is no order specifically targeting Ukrainians.

    Remember that just because Nazis targeted Poles and other Slavs also, does not mean that they didn’t target Jews.

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @AP

    Well, I remember Petliura's troops being made of Ukrainian peasantry and petty bourgeoisie. Also these troops excelling at Pogroms. And the NKVD of the Ukrainian SSR being disproportionately Jewish (even comparatively with the NKVD of the other republics, which higher ranking officers were frequently a product of the some shtetl lost somewhere beyond the pale of settlement), so there's that.

    But I don't hear too many Ukrainian nationalists mentioning this strange correlation with the Holodomor statistics. Easier to just point the accusing finger at the accursed Moskals, even though these Moskals themselves were starved and sent to Siberia in the millions by the NKVD.

    Another explanation I have read, was that Ukrainian peasants were the only ones who actually destroyed a large part of the reserves left by the Reds for the next sowing season. The rationale was that if the Soviets take nearly all the bread I sow, then I will make it impossible for them to take that much bread next year.

    It actually made some sense, because the agricultural tax was calculated proportional to the production of each peasant. So if you produce less, then Commies take less. But the Commies took everything they found next year because they also got a plan to fulfill. So instead of dying of hunger one season and adapting the next, the Ukrainian peasants had the dubious pleasure of dying of hunger for two seasons in row, which might also explain their relative over representation among the starved.

    Replies: @AP

  234. @Mr. Hack
    @AP

    Actually, I think that the "official" estimates range from 2.6M to 6M (some a high as 10M!). The mid-point of 4M seems to be where most modern scholars place the figures.

    I realize that there's a lot of new information coming out all of the time regarding the Holodomor. I too did some research on the same question and couldn't locate any hard numbers as to Polish-Ukraine. That's why I asked you, knowing that if anybody knows you might, you being very good with numbers and statistics. Please, don't waste anymore of your time right now, but if you just happen to cross it later don't hesitate to let me know.

    Replies: @AP

    Demographers and historians poring through the archives arrived at a much lower estimate of 2.6 to 4 million; politicians such as Yushchenko have claimed much larger numbers.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @AP

    From the University of Minnesota's current website of "Holocaust and Genocide Studies":


    While it is impossible to determine the precise number of victims of the Ukrainian genocide, most estimates by scholars range from roughly 3.5 million to 7 million (with some estimates going higher). The most detailed demographic studies estimate the death toll at 3.9 million. Historians agree that, as with other genocides, the precise number will never be known.
     
    https://cla.umn.edu/chgs/holocaust-genocide-education/resource-guides/holodomor

    The 2.6M figure seems low. I've read somewhere that no less an authority than Khrushchev himself once estimated that upwards of 10M fell during the harvest of sorrows....

    Replies: @Ano4

  235. @AP
    @Mr. Hack

    Demographers and historians poring through the archives arrived at a much lower estimate of 2.6 to 4 million; politicians such as Yushchenko have claimed much larger numbers.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    From the University of Minnesota’s current website of “Holocaust and Genocide Studies”:

    While it is impossible to determine the precise number of victims of the Ukrainian genocide, most estimates by scholars range from roughly 3.5 million to 7 million (with some estimates going higher). The most detailed demographic studies estimate the death toll at 3.9 million. Historians agree that, as with other genocides, the precise number will never be known.

    https://cla.umn.edu/chgs/holocaust-genocide-education/resource-guides/holodomor

    The 2.6M figure seems low. I’ve read somewhere that no less an authority than Khrushchev himself once estimated that upwards of 10M fell during the harvest of sorrows….

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @Mr. Hack

    The only time in the 30ies when a population loss is recorded for Ukraine is 1933 with around 1,5 million.

    The loss for this year in RFSSR was around 1,9 million.

    The 10 million figure you heard about is probably the total number of raskulachennye in the whole Soviet Union supposedly mentioned by Stalin during a conversation with Churchill. Whether one should believe Churchill about it is another matter.

  236. @Ano4
    @Mr. Hack

    There was a severe and organized famine in USSR at the time. My grandmother in Penza region had to sustain herself with bark from the trees and edible grass taken in the fields plus the usual mushrooms, which so often come to the rescue of the Russian peasant in the times of hardship. The famine was organized for several interesting reasons:



    1) The civil war ended with the victory of the Bolshevik, but their victory was far from being absolute. On the major part of the Soviet territories the peasantry was in a state of armed rebellion and militancy with the so-called Green Armies (armed peasantry partisan militias) causing a lot of trouble to the Soviet regime. Suffice to say that Red officers, such as Tukhachevsky, needed armored trains, artillery and even chemical warfare to quell the peasant rebellion in some of the regions.

    2) The Bolshevik were clever people and to calm the situation a bit declared the New Economic Policy (NEP) which greatly benefited the peasantry because it allowed them to sell the produce from the lands that these peasants violently expropriated from Tzar era landowners. The peasants became quite fat and happy and started to cozy up to the Soviet regime. The peasants thought that the worse was over and those among them who participated in the Green Armies militancy disarmed. In the NEP era the growth of the Soviet economy was absolutely outstanding in all its sectors with the significant outlier being the heavy industry and armaments.

    3) NEP created an interesting situation: the countryside was actually growing rich6than the cities and this allowed the peasants to start again reproducing like rabbits, while toiling their lands without any motivation to join the proletariat in its fight for a Worldwide Shining Tomorrow.

    4) Something needed being done to force the peasants out of the land and into the heavy industry workforce. Otherwise USSR was lagging behind compared to the Western Imperialist Predators, which would certainly sooner rather than later try to eat the Soviets for breakfast. At the same time, agriculture needed being modernized towards more productivity and mechanization. But peasants didn't care for the Muh Tractors of the Bolshevik propaganda. Peasants were happy without any tractors, their horses and cows were more than enough for them.

    5) To kill many birds with a single stone, the collectivization, extermination of the kulaks as a class and a heavy handed expropriation of the agricultural production were applied simultaneously by the Soviets, while the NEP was curtailed. The peasants who did not expect being fleeced again by the Reds, got caught by surprise and starved in the millions. The Soviet power was strong enough and it was impossible to rebel arms in hand like in the early 20ies.

    6) The peasants (at the time the majority of the Soviet population) became Kolkhoz slaves, toiling the land without receiving much benefit from their work. They had no documents allowing them to leave their villages and the propiska system prevented them from moving to the cities. Except for the young and the brightest who could use the pretence of studying in the cities and working in the giant projects such as Magnitka to extricate themselves from the Kolkhoz slavery.

    7) The agricultural production purchased at a very low cost from the Kolkhoz allowed for exports to generate the cashflow to purchase industrial equipment for the Soviet heavy industry and nascent MIC.

    My grandmother was one of the young peasants who managed to extricate herself from the Kolkhoz slavery. She managed to steal her passport from the Kolkhoz administration and run away to Leningrad where her high grades at the village school allowed her to get into an iinstitute.Her relatives who stayed behind were Kolkhoz slaves well into the 1950ies...

    That's the story of why Soviet peasants got starved, enslaved and exploited to build an industrialized country at a breakneck pace.

    And it all had nothing whatsoever to do with these peasants being specifically Ukrainian, Russian or Tatar...

    Replies: @AP, @Mr. Hack

    Good for your Grandmother and too bad for the rest of your family. I’ll have to agree with AP and many other dedicated scholars that because of the added element of purging Ukraine of 10’s of thousands of its intelligentsia, there was a slightly different emphasis in Ukraine that pointed to perhaps even more sinister foresight involved in the Ukrainian tragedy (also the numbers were quite a bit higher too). The eminent scholar Raphael Lemkin whose work underpinned the U.N.’s “Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide and the Soviet Genocide in Ukraine” wholeheartedly felt that what transpired in Ukraine constituted a classic case of genocide. He, being Jew, does not fit the description of your classic Ukrainian nationalist.

    Having said this, I don’t think that there should be anything precluding Ukrainians from commemorating their great tragedy with Russians or other ethnicities within the Soviet Union or even beyond the borders of this truly historic “prison of nations’. The more all people reflect on the nature of these tragedies, the better.

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @Mr. Hack

    By the beginning of the 30ies Russian intelligentsia was already massacred en masse. Ukrainian intelligentsia should have actually felt much happier to have survived a few years more.

    At least Ukrainians had the korenizatsia to compensate for their cultural losses. Russians had nothing of the kind until the late 50ies and early 60ies with the rural writers (Shukshin a.s.o) remember how badly things turned up for Yessenin, despite him trying to suck up to the Soviets. Remember Bulgakov asking comrade Stalin to be either left alone, shot or allowed to immigrate.

    Times were tough...

    (But I understand that true compassion begins at home and that Ukrainian nationalists will always care more for the suffering of their people instead of recognizing that their suffering was nothing special).

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  237. @AP
    @Ano4

    Mostly correct, but policies were harsher in the Ukrainian SSR and Ukrainians were a disproportionate percentage of the dead (Ukrainians were about 30% of the Soviet population but about 50% of the victims of the Soviet famine). That this coincided with the mass executions of Ukrainian cultural figures suggests a decent but not airtight case that there was a national aspect to this. OTOH there is no order specifically targeting Ukrainians.

    Remember that just because Nazis targeted Poles and other Slavs also, does not mean that they didn’t target Jews.

    Replies: @Ano4

    Well, I remember Petliura’s troops being made of Ukrainian peasantry and petty bourgeoisie. Also these troops excelling at Pogroms. And the NKVD of the Ukrainian SSR being disproportionately Jewish (even comparatively with the NKVD of the other republics, which higher ranking officers were frequently a product of the some shtetl lost somewhere beyond the pale of settlement), so there’s that.

    But I don’t hear too many Ukrainian nationalists mentioning this strange correlation with the Holodomor statistics. Easier to just point the accusing finger at the accursed Moskals, even though these Moskals themselves were starved and sent to Siberia in the millions by the NKVD.

    Another explanation I have read, was that Ukrainian peasants were the only ones who actually destroyed a large part of the reserves left by the Reds for the next sowing season. The rationale was that if the Soviets take nearly all the bread I sow, then I will make it impossible for them to take that much bread next year.

    It actually made some sense, because the agricultural tax was calculated proportional to the production of each peasant. So if you produce less, then Commies take less. But the Commies took everything they found next year because they also got a plan to fulfill. So instead of dying of hunger one season and adapting the next, the Ukrainian peasants had the dubious pleasure of dying of hunger for two seasons in row, which might also explain their relative over representation among the starved.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Ano4


    Well, I remember Petliura’s troops being made of Ukrainian peasantry and petty bourgeoisie. Also these troops excelling at Pogroms. And the NKVD of the Ukrainian SSR being disproportionately Jewish (even comparatively with the NKVD of the other republics, which higher ranking officers were frequently a product of the some shtetl lost somewhere beyond the pale of settlement), so there’s that.
     
    1. Communists were persecuting peasants from 1918, before the pogroms by Ukrainian nationalists, that began in 1919 (since Jews were identified with Communists when Communists left Jews became the focus of peasant rage); since you bring up revenge as an implied excuse to blame the victims ( I would not do this, it is wrong), it works against the Jews.

    2. Many pogroms in Ukraine were done by White armies from Russia, such as the Kiev pogroms; estimates range from 20% to as high as 50%

    3. Total number of pogrom victims (highest estimate 70,000) was utterly dwarfed by the number of victims by communists (several millions)

    But I don’t hear too many Ukrainian nationalists mentioning this strange correlation with the Holodomor statistics.
     
    Well, most of the killers in the German concentration camps were Ukrainian POW Sovoks. In other words, Holodomor survivors. This somehow is also not widely mentioned.

    Easier to just point the accusing finger at the accursed Moskals, even though these Moskals themselves were starved and sent to Siberia in the millions by the NKVD.
     
    Ukrainian peasants saw who was killing them: largely Russians and Russian-speaking Jews from the city. They did not pay attention to what was happening far away in Russia, but were focused on what they were seeing in their area. A government was imposed on Ukraine due to an invasion from Moscow, and the killers doing that government's dirty work were largely Russian-speakers from the city. And indeed within Ukraine, where Ukrainians tended to live in villages, and Russians/Jews in cities, Ukrainians were disproportionately hit.

    I've written before that Russians do not deserve collective responsibility for Bolshevik crimes because Russia was essentially hijacked by a gang of criminals who then spreads their filth to Ukraine and elsewhere. But Ukrainian peasants didn't think about these things, with their own eyes it was just urban Russian-speakers (Russians and Jews) doing this to them.

    Another explanation I have read, was that Ukrainian peasants were the only ones who actually destroyed a large part of the reserves left by the Reds for the next sowing season.
     
    Somehow only they came up with this idea? Russians never did? It was a genetic thing, or a cultural thing?

    Replies: @Ano4

  238. @Mr. Hack
    @Ano4

    Good for your Grandmother and too bad for the rest of your family. I'll have to agree with AP and many other dedicated scholars that because of the added element of purging Ukraine of 10's of thousands of its intelligentsia, there was a slightly different emphasis in Ukraine that pointed to perhaps even more sinister foresight involved in the Ukrainian tragedy (also the numbers were quite a bit higher too). The eminent scholar Raphael Lemkin whose work underpinned the U.N.'s "Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide and the Soviet Genocide in Ukraine" wholeheartedly felt that what transpired in Ukraine constituted a classic case of genocide. He, being Jew, does not fit the description of your classic Ukrainian nationalist.

    Having said this, I don't think that there should be anything precluding Ukrainians from commemorating their great tragedy with Russians or other ethnicities within the Soviet Union or even beyond the borders of this truly historic "prison of nations'. The more all people reflect on the nature of these tragedies, the better.

    Replies: @Ano4

    By the beginning of the 30ies Russian intelligentsia was already massacred en masse. Ukrainian intelligentsia should have actually felt much happier to have survived a few years more.

    At least Ukrainians had the korenizatsia to compensate for their cultural losses. Russians had nothing of the kind until the late 50ies and early 60ies with the rural writers (Shukshin a.s.o) remember how badly things turned up for Yessenin, despite him trying to suck up to the Soviets. Remember Bulgakov asking comrade Stalin to be either left alone, shot or allowed to immigrate.

    Times were tough…

    (But I understand that true compassion begins at home and that Ukrainian nationalists will always care more for the suffering of their people instead of recognizing that their suffering was nothing special).

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Ano4

    One of korenizatsiya's main benefits was to help the Ukrainian populace to better become acquainted with its own literary language, that had been neglected in deference to Russian that was favored during Czarist times. The Russian language was much more established at this time as the favored language of communication throughout the empire and did not need this special period of education within Russia itself. I don't think that the subject of history was taught much in either republic during the 1920's, but was being developed to a greater degree to emphasize the new ideological underpinnings of the new political system. Perhaps I'm wrong about this?

    Replies: @Ano4

  239. @Mr. Hack
    @AP

    From the University of Minnesota's current website of "Holocaust and Genocide Studies":


    While it is impossible to determine the precise number of victims of the Ukrainian genocide, most estimates by scholars range from roughly 3.5 million to 7 million (with some estimates going higher). The most detailed demographic studies estimate the death toll at 3.9 million. Historians agree that, as with other genocides, the precise number will never be known.
     
    https://cla.umn.edu/chgs/holocaust-genocide-education/resource-guides/holodomor

    The 2.6M figure seems low. I've read somewhere that no less an authority than Khrushchev himself once estimated that upwards of 10M fell during the harvest of sorrows....

    Replies: @Ano4

    The only time in the 30ies when a population loss is recorded for Ukraine is 1933 with around 1,5 million.

    The loss for this year in RFSSR was around 1,9 million.

    The 10 million figure you heard about is probably the total number of raskulachennye in the whole Soviet Union supposedly mentioned by Stalin during a conversation with Churchill. Whether one should believe Churchill about it is another matter.

  240. @Mr. Hack
    @AP

    An immigrant Ukrainian friend of mine has in his employ an Azerbaijani personal aide companion, that immigrated from the Baku region. Fishing and mushroom foraging trips to the lake country are often exchanged for undone housework. :-) He's very proud of his Persian roots and his ability to converse in several languages, including Ukrainian and Russian. As a young man he served in the Soviet military and was stationed mostly in Western Ukraine. He appears to come from an upper class family and counts his father and grandparents as part of the Azerbaijani intellectual elite, being at one time university professors and writers. When I first met him, I christened him with his new name of "Persik" that was common among our circle of friends (having a nickname). Everybody thought that it was a cute name and understood that in Ukrainian "persik" means a "peach". I'll be bold and try the "persuky" on him the next time that I see him. :-)

    Replies: @Ano4, @AnonFromTN

    Now, let’s look at numbers.
    Ukraine population: 2020 (official number) – 41,785,800; 1989 – 51,700,000; 1970 – 47,200,000; 1950 – 37,297,600; 1944 – 33,500,000; 1941 – 42,000,000; 1922 – 26,200,000.

    So, between 1922 and 1941 the population grew by 15.8 million (~60%) (how plausible does the holodomor narrative sound?). Between 1941 and 1944 it decreased by 8.5 million (~20%) – there was WWII. Under Soviet “oppression” from 1944 to 1989 it increased by 18.2 million (by 54%). After independence it decreased even by official count by ~9.9 million (~20%). Thus, hard numbers say that so called independence was a calamity comparable to WWII.

    • Agree: Ano4, AltanBakshi
    • Replies: @AP
    @AnonFromTN


    So, between 1922 and 1941 the population grew by 15.8 million (~60%) (how plausible does the holodomor narrative sound?).
     
    Large-scale population growth in the 1920s (TFR 5.39 in 1925), plus annexation of parts of Poland and Ukraine in 1939 (approximately another 7 million people), plus settlement by Russian colonists. How stupid do you think readers are?

    Thus, hard numbers say that so called independence was a calamity comparable to WWII.
     
    Because loss of population due to territorial losses, emigration, and lower birth rate is really the same as loss of population due to starvation and killing. So if you had one child rather than four, you "killed" three children. Hard numbers. Amazing logic.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @AnonFromTN, @Gerard-Mandela

    , @Mr. Hack
    @AnonFromTN

    The conversation at hand regards the Holodomor period, roughly from 1930-1933. You're looking at a much larger swath of time, from 1922-1941, not really comparable. Also, it's well known that the Komuna was not interested in announcing to the world the excesses and horrors that were experienced in Ukraine due to its own blatantly corrupt and inhumane policies that resulted in the deaths of millions of its own citizens and therefore could skew the stats to try and cover up their own crimes, and now it looks like you're trying to continue their game of hide and obfuscate and continue the ruse - such a contemptible and heartless sovok you appear to be. :-(

  241. @AltanBakshi
    @songbird

    There is Laos, which has less Lao people than Thailand.

    Sad that there are so many people on this site having such infantile and not well established opinions regarding this conflict. Azeris in republic of Azerbaijan have lived separately from Iranian Azeris for almost 200 years for now. Iranian Azeris are very well integrated with the Islamic republic of Iran. Ali Khamenei himself has Azeri roots and they have not experienced the communist and kemalist propaganda like their brethren living in republic of Azerbaijan.
    Iranian Azeris are much more religious and much more connected with their cultural roots, one can say that their historical development has been more "organic."

    And I am very sad that ano4 wants that Russians descend on the level of the Ukrainian far right nationalists. Shouldnt one strive to be better than others?

    Armenians have paid the ultimate price for their collaboration with the Russia. Hamidian massacres and Armenian genocide happened because Turks saw them as Russias fifth coloumn and Armenians would not have gotten as rebellious without Russia annexing neighbouring lands like Kars Oblast and treatening local Christians in much more civilized and egalitarian manner unlike Ottomans with their dhimmis.

    And some ignorant idiots think here that Catholicism is closer to Orthodoxy than Oriental Orthodoxy/Miaphysites, because their separation happened on a later date. By that logic all Protestant sects are automatically closer to Catholic Church than Catholic Church is towards the Orthodoxy. Or gay marriage espiscopals are automatically closer to hard line calvinists. Idiots!

    Russian and Coptic Church have had theological discussions for generations and their conclusion was that there are no hard differences in theology or christology between Miaphysite and Orthodox communion. That the Miaphysites also condemn monophysite theology. But why they cant then unite, you ask? Because both churches have condemned some of others church's saints as heretics. The reasons are not well known anymore, but the tradition of both churches makes changing of their status impossible.

    Replies: @Ano4, @Europe Europa, @AltanBakshi, @songbird, @Anondude

    “Armenians have paid the ultimate price for their collaboration with the Russia. Hamidian massacres and Armenian genocide happened because Turks saw them as Russias fifth coloumn and Armenians would not have gotten as rebellious without Russia annexing neighbouring lands like Kars Oblast and treatening local Christians in much more civilized and egalitarian manner unlike Ottomans with their dhimmis.”

    Congrats, you’ve managed to hand waive genocide. And, the Tutsis wouldn’t have been slaughtered and they not been the favorites of the colonial power, and not arrogantly been more successful than they’re 15% of the population warranted. And, teh Jews would not have been subject to the Holocaust had they not been the primary movers behind the Spartacist uprisings. And, the Ukranians would not have been subject to the Holodomor had they not had so many who harbored counter-revoluntionary sentiments. And, the professionals and intellectuals of Cambodia would not have been subject to the Killing Fields had they simply let go of their attachment to a pre-year zero world. The list of excuses for genocide goes on and on. Funny how the Turks managed to complete the trifecta, genocide of the Armenians, Greeks, and Assyrians.

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @Anondude

    So its wrong to analyze motivations for genocide, how much one can be an ass?
    Ottomans didnt commit large scale genocides or ethnic cleansings of minorities for hundreds of years, when they were the paramount power of the Balkans, Caucasus, Middle East and Mediterranean. So you claim that its futile to deduct and understand the motivations of Ottoman politival leaders? Hey ignoramus understanding something is not same as validating or accepting mistaken views or opinions.

    The Ottoman empire was an ancient empire which was crumbling on many directions, both internal and external, it had minorities that truly despised their overlords, and often for justifiable reasons, minorities which could not be equal citizens of an empire which claimed officially to be a successor of ancient Islamic Caliphate. The empire during its long decay had endured over a one hundred years of revolts and wars caused by those rebellious populations, like the many Greek, Serb, Romanian and Bulgarian revolts, and almost always foreign powers helped or directly interfered on behalf of those non muslim minorities.

    If that would be all, but no, the Ottomans were waging desperate war on three or four fronts against superior enemy. On the Caucasus, on the Iraq, on the Palestine and Arabia. So I am hand wawing genocide because I try to understand the motivations of the perpetrators?
    How stupid one can be, really AK please block this clown.

    What Ottomans did was exremely wrong, and most of the masterminds of the genocide were thankfully hunted down and assasinated by Armenians or they met very bad fates like Enver Pasha. But there is nothing wrong in trying to understand the reasons and causes that were driving the three Pashas who ruled the Ottoman Empire. Actually one can see growing sense of desperation by the Ottomans through the 19th and early 20th Century. For in the war of Bulgarian liberation in 1877-78 thry already started to commit acts of genocide but on a much smaller scale. Downfalls of empires are not nice thing and people who are cornered like a beasts and under a siege often start to spiral on the path of madness. Even Nazis commited their greatest atrocities in the last years of the war.

    Replies: @sher singh

  242. @anonymous599
    @SIMP simp

    Macron seems to have specific problem with Erdogan, can't really take him seriously about anything regarding with Turkey. I would like to see visual proof from multiple sources involving multiple soldiers. I mean, at the end of the day, even Russian mercenaries can be found, so I don't expect Syrians/Turkish officials to cover all of their traces. Also, I have read in some other places about their salaries (1000$). There is no way Turkey pays that much. I mean if they pay that, you can simply recruit from Turkey (Only 10% of the population earn 1000$ per month).

    Replies: @Anondude

    Erdogen is not foolish enough to send actual Turkish citizens to die in Libya or Karabakh. That would take the air out of any enthusiasm in Turkey for such foreign adventures.

    The figure quoted by Syrian mercs is $2,000, who claim they were told they would be guarding oil pipelines, not fighting in a war.

  243. @Annatar
    Since the beginning of the current war on September 27 based off the underlying factors and the evidence I have seen it seems highly likely Azerbaijan will be able to achieve its strategic goals, in many key areas Azerbaijan seems to have a decisive advantage over Armenia and that advantage is likely to remain unless facts on the ground change.

    In terms of equipment, Azerbaijan obviously has larger military stockpiles overall, but just as importantly, Turkey which likely has large reserves of equipment and ammunition in reserve can keep Azerbaijan supplied as long as possible, Armenia has no such benefactor at the moment, in addition, Turkey can obviously produce equipment in terms of drones and other weapons delivery platforms as required to replace any losses the Azeri’s might sustain. Also it should be noted Turkey does have the economic capacity to easily replace any losses Azerbaijan incurs and inundate Armenia with equipment if required, Armenia’s whole GDP in nominal terms is only $13 billion, Turkey’s defence budget in 2019 was $20.4 billion.

    In terms of manpower, again the odds favour Azerbaijan, it possesses 10 million inhabitants to Armenia’s 2.95 million, a ratio of 3.4:1, even more worryingly for Armenia, due to higher Azeri fertility rates post 1991, the ratio in terms of young men is even worse for Armenia as it has an older age structure. Among men aged 20-29, Azerbaijan’s advantage rises to 4:1, in addition as pointed out in the blog post, Azerbaijan has access to Turkish mercenaries, and if required, it is not inconceivable Turkey might be willing to send soldiers to fight in Azeri uniform, Turkey has a large army and reserve force after all and most Turks and I assume this holds for Turkish soldiers as well dislike Armenians.

    Regarding intelligence, it is almost certain Turkey is using its satellites and aerial reconnaissance aircraft to feed intelligence to the Azeri’s regarding Armenian troop positions and movements, Azerbaijan also clearly has air control over the battlefield which will help it in terms of gathering intelligence, as such it is likely that Azerbaijan is more well informed of Armenian troop dispositions than vice versa.

    In closing, considering Azerbaijan’s advantages in equipment, manpower and intelligence, it is likely Azerbaijan will achieve the strategic aims it has set for itself in this war; of course the Armenians have the advantage of defending hilly terrain, and fortune matters in war as well so Armenia could win but I think it is more likely that Azerbaijan will win.

    Replies: @Anondude

    You raise excellent points, especially about the intel advantage that comes from Turkish satellites and reconnaissance. I have a few quibbles.

    1. To truly achieve its strategic aims, Azerbijan would have to recapture Karabakh. At this point, that is an existential issue in Armenia and they would likely fight to the last soldier on that point. While it may seem suicidal, I doubt that Azerbijian would be willing to take the heavy casualties required by such a fight. As deGaulle supposedly said when told force de frappe was useless because France could never defeat the Soviet Union, “I only need to take off an arm,” i.e., I only need to be able to inflict unacceptable losses on the enemy to deter him. That leads to the second point.

    2. The huge advantage in manpower only works if you’re actually willing to accept large numbers of casualties. I seriously doubt Azerbijian is willing to accept such a large number of body bags returning to Baku. All of the conflicts since 94 have been relatively minor and neither side has been forced to test the theory that they were wiling to fight to the death. There is a reason they are using Syrian mercs. Part of it is because they are battle-tested, but it is also because it keeps the tally of Azeri deaths low.

    3. The issue of the terrain and the advantage is gives to the defending party should not be understated. It is already playing out. Based on force advantage alone, Azeri forces should be making bigger advances than we’ve seen.

    4. While Moscow would like to see Pashinyan get his commeuppance, there is a limit to how weak it is willing to see Armenia become.

    5. Turkey becoming more open about its involvement in the conflict is likely a bridge too far for Moscow. So, there is a limit to the aid that Turkey supplies, and I suspect that limit is in openly providing Turkish troops to the conflict.

    Ultimately, I think Azerbijian will recover some of the corridor, but i seriously doubt it will end up with Karabakh or that it can succeed in encircling it. It will have changed the facts on the ground and weakened Armenia, but actually accomplishing its stated goal seems rather unlikely.

  244. @g2k
    @AP

    Have you read Ali and Nino, now might be the time if you haven't. The book predates the Soviet Union, but, with the exception of religion, attitudes don't seem to have changed that much. The main character swaps between using Azerbaijani and Tatar to describe himself, though that might be down to translation. It's a good read; every character in it is hateful. Not sure if they ever found out who wrote it.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @AaronB

    every character in it is hateful. N

    A beautiful book. Amazing how people can have such different responses.

  245. @Ano4
    @AP

    Well, I remember Petliura's troops being made of Ukrainian peasantry and petty bourgeoisie. Also these troops excelling at Pogroms. And the NKVD of the Ukrainian SSR being disproportionately Jewish (even comparatively with the NKVD of the other republics, which higher ranking officers were frequently a product of the some shtetl lost somewhere beyond the pale of settlement), so there's that.

    But I don't hear too many Ukrainian nationalists mentioning this strange correlation with the Holodomor statistics. Easier to just point the accusing finger at the accursed Moskals, even though these Moskals themselves were starved and sent to Siberia in the millions by the NKVD.

    Another explanation I have read, was that Ukrainian peasants were the only ones who actually destroyed a large part of the reserves left by the Reds for the next sowing season. The rationale was that if the Soviets take nearly all the bread I sow, then I will make it impossible for them to take that much bread next year.

    It actually made some sense, because the agricultural tax was calculated proportional to the production of each peasant. So if you produce less, then Commies take less. But the Commies took everything they found next year because they also got a plan to fulfill. So instead of dying of hunger one season and adapting the next, the Ukrainian peasants had the dubious pleasure of dying of hunger for two seasons in row, which might also explain their relative over representation among the starved.

    Replies: @AP

    Well, I remember Petliura’s troops being made of Ukrainian peasantry and petty bourgeoisie. Also these troops excelling at Pogroms. And the NKVD of the Ukrainian SSR being disproportionately Jewish (even comparatively with the NKVD of the other republics, which higher ranking officers were frequently a product of the some shtetl lost somewhere beyond the pale of settlement), so there’s that.

    1. Communists were persecuting peasants from 1918, before the pogroms by Ukrainian nationalists, that began in 1919 (since Jews were identified with Communists when Communists left Jews became the focus of peasant rage); since you bring up revenge as an implied excuse to blame the victims ( I would not do this, it is wrong), it works against the Jews.

    2. Many pogroms in Ukraine were done by White armies from Russia, such as the Kiev pogroms; estimates range from 20% to as high as 50%

    3. Total number of pogrom victims (highest estimate 70,000) was utterly dwarfed by the number of victims by communists (several millions)

    But I don’t hear too many Ukrainian nationalists mentioning this strange correlation with the Holodomor statistics.

    Well, most of the killers in the German concentration camps were Ukrainian POW Sovoks. In other words, Holodomor survivors. This somehow is also not widely mentioned.

    Easier to just point the accusing finger at the accursed Moskals, even though these Moskals themselves were starved and sent to Siberia in the millions by the NKVD.

    Ukrainian peasants saw who was killing them: largely Russians and Russian-speaking Jews from the city. They did not pay attention to what was happening far away in Russia, but were focused on what they were seeing in their area. A government was imposed on Ukraine due to an invasion from Moscow, and the killers doing that government’s dirty work were largely Russian-speakers from the city. And indeed within Ukraine, where Ukrainians tended to live in villages, and Russians/Jews in cities, Ukrainians were disproportionately hit.

    I’ve written before that Russians do not deserve collective responsibility for Bolshevik crimes because Russia was essentially hijacked by a gang of criminals who then spreads their filth to Ukraine and elsewhere. But Ukrainian peasants didn’t think about these things, with their own eyes it was just urban Russian-speakers (Russians and Jews) doing this to them.

    Another explanation I have read, was that Ukrainian peasants were the only ones who actually destroyed a large part of the reserves left by the Reds for the next sowing season.

    Somehow only they came up with this idea? Russians never did? It was a genetic thing, or a cultural thing?

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @AP

    Probably more of a cultural thing, given that they are largely identical from the genetic perspective. A Russian saying: быть Русским судьба, быть хохлом жадность...

    BTW I have heard about the Ukrainian Concentration Camp Kapo thing. But there where also the Lithuanians. The reason was mostly the same; to exact revenge against the Jews, the Reds and the Russians probably in that order.

    We both agree that Russia was hijacked. And given that you are a quite learned person, you probably know that this hijacking was long in preparation. And the "Western Partners " as Putin calls them today had a hand in the process. Of course that was nothing personal and business only. Who could have prophesied then that one day the Marxist hordes would be unleashed on the West itself. That's what happens with all this one eye for one eye thing: it sometimes becomes a self sustaining, nearly impersonal process.

  246. @AnonFromTN
    @Mr. Hack

    Now, let’s look at numbers.
    Ukraine population: 2020 (official number) – 41,785,800; 1989 – 51,700,000; 1970 – 47,200,000; 1950 – 37,297,600; 1944 – 33,500,000; 1941 – 42,000,000; 1922 – 26,200,000.

    So, between 1922 and 1941 the population grew by 15.8 million (~60%) (how plausible does the holodomor narrative sound?). Between 1941 and 1944 it decreased by 8.5 million (~20%) – there was WWII. Under Soviet “oppression” from 1944 to 1989 it increased by 18.2 million (by 54%). After independence it decreased even by official count by ~9.9 million (~20%). Thus, hard numbers say that so called independence was a calamity comparable to WWII.

    Replies: @AP, @Mr. Hack

    So, between 1922 and 1941 the population grew by 15.8 million (~60%) (how plausible does the holodomor narrative sound?).

    Large-scale population growth in the 1920s (TFR 5.39 in 1925), plus annexation of parts of Poland and Ukraine in 1939 (approximately another 7 million people), plus settlement by Russian colonists. How stupid do you think readers are?

    Thus, hard numbers say that so called independence was a calamity comparable to WWII.

    Because loss of population due to territorial losses, emigration, and lower birth rate is really the same as loss of population due to starvation and killing. So if you had one child rather than four, you “killed” three children. Hard numbers. Amazing logic.

    • Agree: Mr. Hack
    • Disagree: AltanBakshi
    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @AP

    Actually I wanted to agree with you on this part:


    Because loss of population due to territorial losses, emigration, and lower birth rate is really the same as loss of population due to starvation and killing. So if you had one child rather than four, you “killed” three children. Hard numbers. Amazing logic.
     
    But I accidentally clicked disagree, our many debates have clearly made some negative effects on my reflexes...

    But still there is some truth in AnonFromTNs statement. Independence of Ukraine has not at least solved anything for Ukrainians in the spheres of economic well being and political security or stability.

    Replies: @AP

    , @AnonFromTN
    @AP


    territorial losses
     
    I did not want to go into that, but your Freudian slip of tongue made me. So, let’s look at the numbers before Ukraine lost any territory
    1989 – 51,700,000
    2000 – 48,838,000
    2013 – 45,455,000
    Simple math: Ukraine was losing 271,000 residents per year.
    Let’s ignore the fact that war always reduces birth rate and increases death rate and linearly extrapolate to 2020. We get expected 43,554,000 in the whole of Ukraine’s former territory. It is widely known that the total number of residents in Crimea, Lugansk, and Donetsk People’s Republics is ~ 6 million (to be more exact, 2,362,000, 1,439,000, and 2,260,000, respectively). Not even counting hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians who ran away to Russia as war refugees or otherwise and got citizenship or permanent residency, 43.55 million minus 6 million gives 37.55 million maximum in the rump of Ukraine.

    Thus, it follows that official number 41,785,800 is a lie, exactly like most statements of post-coup Ukrainian governments. Case closed.

    Replies: @AP, @Gerard.Gerard

    , @Gerard-Mandela
    @AP


    Large-scale population growth in the 1920s (TFR 5.39 in 1925), plus annexation of parts of Poland and Ukraine in 1939 (approximately another 7 million people), plus settlement by Russian colonists. How stupid do you think readers are?
     
    LMAO at this dumb, insidious, sociopathic BS.

    Large-scale population growth in the 1920s (TFR 5.39 in 1925)
     
    LOL-STOP there.You have effectively killed your own BS argument before it has even started!
    Your fake claims of a genocide caused by the targeted actions of a Soviet "regime" and "dictator" Stalin are based entirely by comparing it against the positive statistics before the "genocide"created by the policies in healthcare, administration, education, agriculture etc of ....... that exact same "regime" and that same "dictator" in the Ukrainian SSR!!! Seriously WTF? How much of an imbecile do you have to be to use such shameless argumentation as you do? Stalin in 1920's makes Gandhi and Jacinda Ardern look like sadists.All this happening despite a very serious actual famine in the early 1920's that affected Ukraine, you know, the one that near all the photos of the Golodomor are actually taken from

    It's impossible to call a genocide, anything that takes 2 seconds to recover and exceed the original population number, you m*ron. That is the exact position of Ukraine in the mid-30's.It takes me longer to shave in the morning....than it did for Ukraine to recover it's population level after the fictitious "Golodomor". That ends the issue, as does the fact that in 1991 absolutely zero people in Ukraine gave a flying f**K about this fictitious event.Nobody was talking about it. Subhuman North American Banderetard Soros scum funded laughable BS revisionism in Galicia , making these fantasists try and impose this nonsense story on the rest of the state......even though absolutely none of these freaks lived in the area effected or was even part of the same state at the time.LOL!

    War disproportionately kills men. Famine does not discriminate against men, women and children so alot higher percentage of woman and children die ( maybe war-time famine does discriminate....in that food to military is given priority so even higher percentage of women and kids die) . That reality should make the medium and long term effects on population demographics much worse when famine arrives because there is less women to give birth and there is less of the next generation to produce kids in 20-40 years later.None of this happened in Ukraine ( if subtracting WW2 loss)

    Ireland is still suffering the effects of it's famine from 150 years before on it's population total,numerous other example around the world of the same thing....but the inverse for Ukraine.


    plus annexation of parts of Poland and Ukraine in 1939 (approximately another 7 million people), plus settlement by Russian colonists. How stupid do you think readers are?
     
    LOL,what nonsense. Because AnonFromTN is a sane, intellectual normal guy who, completely different to a worthless bum like you, has lived in knows and speaks Russian& Ukrainian...he can be trusted to speak honestly and has no motivation to be a pedantic loser.Because you are of course a fraud and a liar with no knowledge or ability on these things ( clearly makes you jealous) the only "weapon" you have (LOL) it to be deceitfully pedantic to give the stupid impression that Anon is "misleading" . It is completely irrelevant and non-misleading if that 7 million from Gal/Buk are included because Ukraine has a population greatly exceeding its pre- William Randolph Hearst, Coca-Cola World Series Golodomor levels in the years immediately after it until 1941. 8 million or 15 million does not change the importance of the point. Like any sane person he is taking the numbers from 1941 because it is sensible to go to the start of Nazi invasion of USSR. Even a dumb person like you must know this but you choose to further misdirect

    Because loss of population due to territorial losses, emigration, and lower birth rate is really the same as loss of population due to starvation and killing. So if you had one child rather than four, you “killed” three children. Hard numbers. Amazing logic.
     
    LOL. This is cretin logic and projection of the worst type. Creating false equivalences between Nazis and Soviets, or Soviets and other people by deliberately and falsely levelling the practical outcome from one side against the moral actions of the other are exactly what you have done a million times on here. Similar to your nutjob Polish/Galician/Austrian/Chechen/East Ukrainian/American troll views on here ( even when they all contradict each other) done for the purpose of wasting hours of your "life" on here. Seriously WTF? How strange do you have to be to shamefully accuse Anon of what is exactly your tactics on here? Difference being that AnonFromTN is 1. Speaking the truth
    2. Started it by saying "in pure numbers" - which makes even trying to challenge him on it completely idiotic.

    But of course the main, ridiculously embarrassing fact in his post is that "nationalist" policies of modern Ukrainian ( well, US prostitute) state kill more people than "deliberate genocide" of Russians.

    Replies: @AP

  247. @AP
    @Ano4


    Well, I remember Petliura’s troops being made of Ukrainian peasantry and petty bourgeoisie. Also these troops excelling at Pogroms. And the NKVD of the Ukrainian SSR being disproportionately Jewish (even comparatively with the NKVD of the other republics, which higher ranking officers were frequently a product of the some shtetl lost somewhere beyond the pale of settlement), so there’s that.
     
    1. Communists were persecuting peasants from 1918, before the pogroms by Ukrainian nationalists, that began in 1919 (since Jews were identified with Communists when Communists left Jews became the focus of peasant rage); since you bring up revenge as an implied excuse to blame the victims ( I would not do this, it is wrong), it works against the Jews.

    2. Many pogroms in Ukraine were done by White armies from Russia, such as the Kiev pogroms; estimates range from 20% to as high as 50%

    3. Total number of pogrom victims (highest estimate 70,000) was utterly dwarfed by the number of victims by communists (several millions)

    But I don’t hear too many Ukrainian nationalists mentioning this strange correlation with the Holodomor statistics.
     
    Well, most of the killers in the German concentration camps were Ukrainian POW Sovoks. In other words, Holodomor survivors. This somehow is also not widely mentioned.

    Easier to just point the accusing finger at the accursed Moskals, even though these Moskals themselves were starved and sent to Siberia in the millions by the NKVD.
     
    Ukrainian peasants saw who was killing them: largely Russians and Russian-speaking Jews from the city. They did not pay attention to what was happening far away in Russia, but were focused on what they were seeing in their area. A government was imposed on Ukraine due to an invasion from Moscow, and the killers doing that government's dirty work were largely Russian-speakers from the city. And indeed within Ukraine, where Ukrainians tended to live in villages, and Russians/Jews in cities, Ukrainians were disproportionately hit.

    I've written before that Russians do not deserve collective responsibility for Bolshevik crimes because Russia was essentially hijacked by a gang of criminals who then spreads their filth to Ukraine and elsewhere. But Ukrainian peasants didn't think about these things, with their own eyes it was just urban Russian-speakers (Russians and Jews) doing this to them.

    Another explanation I have read, was that Ukrainian peasants were the only ones who actually destroyed a large part of the reserves left by the Reds for the next sowing season.
     
    Somehow only they came up with this idea? Russians never did? It was a genetic thing, or a cultural thing?

    Replies: @Ano4

    Probably more of a cultural thing, given that they are largely identical from the genetic perspective. A Russian saying: быть Русским судьба, быть хохлом жадность…

    BTW I have heard about the Ukrainian Concentration Camp Kapo thing. But there where also the Lithuanians. The reason was mostly the same; to exact revenge against the Jews, the Reds and the Russians probably in that order.

    We both agree that Russia was hijacked. And given that you are a quite learned person, you probably know that this hijacking was long in preparation. And the “Western Partners ” as Putin calls them today had a hand in the process. Of course that was nothing personal and business only. Who could have prophesied then that one day the Marxist hordes would be unleashed on the West itself. That’s what happens with all this one eye for one eye thing: it sometimes becomes a self sustaining, nearly impersonal process.

  248. It’s a geopolitically murky situation, which greatly explains Russia’s stance on the matter:

    https://www.turkeyanalyst.org/publications/turkey-analyst-articles/item/652-turkey%E2%80%99s-commitment-to-azerbaijan%E2%80%99s-defense-shows-the-limits-of-ankara%E2%80%99s-tilt-to-moscow.html

  249. @Anondude
    @AltanBakshi

    "Armenians have paid the ultimate price for their collaboration with the Russia. Hamidian massacres and Armenian genocide happened because Turks saw them as Russias fifth coloumn and Armenians would not have gotten as rebellious without Russia annexing neighbouring lands like Kars Oblast and treatening local Christians in much more civilized and egalitarian manner unlike Ottomans with their dhimmis."

    Congrats, you've managed to hand waive genocide. And, the Tutsis wouldn't have been slaughtered and they not been the favorites of the colonial power, and not arrogantly been more successful than they're 15% of the population warranted. And, teh Jews would not have been subject to the Holocaust had they not been the primary movers behind the Spartacist uprisings. And, the Ukranians would not have been subject to the Holodomor had they not had so many who harbored counter-revoluntionary sentiments. And, the professionals and intellectuals of Cambodia would not have been subject to the Killing Fields had they simply let go of their attachment to a pre-year zero world. The list of excuses for genocide goes on and on. Funny how the Turks managed to complete the trifecta, genocide of the Armenians, Greeks, and Assyrians.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    So its wrong to analyze motivations for genocide, how much one can be an ass?
    Ottomans didnt commit large scale genocides or ethnic cleansings of minorities for hundreds of years, when they were the paramount power of the Balkans, Caucasus, Middle East and Mediterranean. So you claim that its futile to deduct and understand the motivations of Ottoman politival leaders? Hey ignoramus understanding something is not same as validating or accepting mistaken views or opinions.

    The Ottoman empire was an ancient empire which was crumbling on many directions, both internal and external, it had minorities that truly despised their overlords, and often for justifiable reasons, minorities which could not be equal citizens of an empire which claimed officially to be a successor of ancient Islamic Caliphate. The empire during its long decay had endured over a one hundred years of revolts and wars caused by those rebellious populations, like the many Greek, Serb, Romanian and Bulgarian revolts, and almost always foreign powers helped or directly interfered on behalf of those non muslim minorities.

    If that would be all, but no, the Ottomans were waging desperate war on three or four fronts against superior enemy. On the Caucasus, on the Iraq, on the Palestine and Arabia. So I am hand wawing genocide because I try to understand the motivations of the perpetrators?
    How stupid one can be, really AK please block this clown.

    What Ottomans did was exremely wrong, and most of the masterminds of the genocide were thankfully hunted down and assasinated by Armenians or they met very bad fates like Enver Pasha. But there is nothing wrong in trying to understand the reasons and causes that were driving the three Pashas who ruled the Ottoman Empire. Actually one can see growing sense of desperation by the Ottomans through the 19th and early 20th Century. For in the war of Bulgarian liberation in 1877-78 thry already started to commit acts of genocide but on a much smaller scale. Downfalls of empires are not nice thing and people who are cornered like a beasts and under a siege often start to spiral on the path of madness. Even Nazis commited their greatest atrocities in the last years of the war.

    • Agree: Ano4
    • Replies: @sher singh
    @AltanBakshi

    https://www.sikhphilosophy.net/threads/the-sant-sipahi-tradition-flows-from-guru-nanak-himself.36543/


    When, after a duel with Guru Hagobind, Painda Khan, who was lying mortally wounded, repented, the merciful Guru took his head upon his lap and shielded the sun from his eyes saying, ‘Painda it is time to repeat the ‘kalmia.’ Painda Khan was overwhelmed by the gesture. His last words were, ‘now Guru, your sword has become my kalmia.’
     

    The Tenth Nanak, Gobind Singh specifically forbade the massacre of fleeing enemy. This injunction is based on the Sikh doctrine, that that there is no ‘other’ among humans, as all derive origin from the same divine entity, the common Father/Mother of all.

    Once they abandon evil ways or cease to support evil causes, they must not be molested. Qazi Nur Muhammad records, `they never kill a retreating foe.’[5] Karl Marx thinks that the Sikhs failed to consolidate their victory over the British at Mudki on December 21, 1845 because they would not attack a defeated foe.[6]
     

    The Guru expects his followers not to shirk battle for a worthy cause. The cause has been defined clearly. It is the Creator’s Will that absolute justice should pervade all human institutions, that everyone must enjoy the freedom of worship and to preserve ones human dignity.

    This is the basis of the Sikh political thought in Guru Granth. Akalpurakh disapproves of oppression (har jio hankar naa bhaaviee) born of impulse of aggression. In his Babarvani verses, Guru Nanak expounds the theory that it is necessary for a spiritually oriented person to physically resist evil-doers. He denounces the Lodhis who failed to protect the women of Hind and its culture. The conclusion is that the devotees who strive for spiritual progress must resist oppression to express their love for Him.

    Physical resistance to evil is therefore necessary for a person having spiritual aspirations. This is the ‘righteous cause’ that must be pursued ‘to the point of courting martyrdom (mar se mansa sooria hak hai je hoe marahe parvano).’ Defining the righteous cause more explicitly, Guru Arjun told Adit Soini, ‘while engaged in battle, contemplate on Akalpurakh, Who destroys evil-doers; fight an ethical battle on behalf of the oppressed poor.’[1]

    The same idea is contained in the verses of Kabir included in the scripture. ‘Truly brave is one who fights for the deprived,’ says the Bhagat. (soora so pehchanie jo lare deen ke het). While engaged in this pious duty, the battlefield must never be abandoned. (purja purja kat marai kbhun na chhade khet).

     

    Thoughts?

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

  250. @AP
    @AnonFromTN


    So, between 1922 and 1941 the population grew by 15.8 million (~60%) (how plausible does the holodomor narrative sound?).
     
    Large-scale population growth in the 1920s (TFR 5.39 in 1925), plus annexation of parts of Poland and Ukraine in 1939 (approximately another 7 million people), plus settlement by Russian colonists. How stupid do you think readers are?

    Thus, hard numbers say that so called independence was a calamity comparable to WWII.
     
    Because loss of population due to territorial losses, emigration, and lower birth rate is really the same as loss of population due to starvation and killing. So if you had one child rather than four, you "killed" three children. Hard numbers. Amazing logic.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @AnonFromTN, @Gerard-Mandela

    Actually I wanted to agree with you on this part:

    Because loss of population due to territorial losses, emigration, and lower birth rate is really the same as loss of population due to starvation and killing. So if you had one child rather than four, you “killed” three children. Hard numbers. Amazing logic.

    But I accidentally clicked disagree, our many debates have clearly made some negative effects on my reflexes…

    But still there is some truth in AnonFromTNs statement. Independence of Ukraine has not at least solved anything for Ukrainians in the spheres of economic well being and political security or stability.

    • Replies: @AP
    @AltanBakshi


    Actually I wanted to agree with you on this part
     
    Thank you.

    But still there is some truth in AnonFromTNs statement. Independence of Ukraine has not at least solved anything for Ukrainians in the spheres of economic well being and political security or stability
     
    This is not wrong; here is Ukraine’s per capita GDP in constant dollars:

    https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.KD?locations=UA

    However the essential problem has not been independence but two related issues:

    1. Soviets created borders that included within Ukraine large territories whose populations were hostile (Crimea) or indifferent/sceptical (Donbas) towards Ukrainian statehood. There were some people like that in the rest of Ukraine but with these territories, the country was hobbled with perhaps 40% of the population not caring about it.

    2. Ukraine’s leadership was pretty much the old Soviet comprador elite - a combination of traitors and those too incompetent to make it in Moscow so they were relegated to provincial Ukraine. The natives among them betrayed their people by becoming communists and then betrayed the communist regime by ending the USSR and cutting a deal with nationalist activists in which the nationalists acquiesced to let the elites keep political and economic control in exchange for getting the schools and trappings of statehood. Of course not all of them were even natives. Yanukovich’s PM Azarov came to Ukraine from Russia in the 1980s when he was in his thirties. Naturally the Soviet elites were horrible economic stewards, who got rich while driving the country into the ground.

    (2) would have been impossible without (1).

    (1) was resolved in 2014. So after about 25 years of being inherently crippled Ukraine finally had a chance for normal development. It will take a long time to recover from those 25 lost years but until COVID, after a difficult 2014-2015 the progress was clear. By 2019, despite low-grade war in the East, Ukraine’s GDP per capita in constant dollars had exceeded the Yanukovich years (see link) and was approaching the post-Soviet high of 2008. Wages in early 2020 were no longer the second lowest in Europe but the third lowest. In net terms they were higher than Belarus and Armenia (and tied with Georgia); adjusted for cost of living they were higher than Moldova and Armenia:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage

    The population’s geopolitical orientation is much more solidly oriented towards its westward neighbors, etc.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

  251. @AnonFromTN
    @Mr. Hack

    Now, let’s look at numbers.
    Ukraine population: 2020 (official number) – 41,785,800; 1989 – 51,700,000; 1970 – 47,200,000; 1950 – 37,297,600; 1944 – 33,500,000; 1941 – 42,000,000; 1922 – 26,200,000.

    So, between 1922 and 1941 the population grew by 15.8 million (~60%) (how plausible does the holodomor narrative sound?). Between 1941 and 1944 it decreased by 8.5 million (~20%) – there was WWII. Under Soviet “oppression” from 1944 to 1989 it increased by 18.2 million (by 54%). After independence it decreased even by official count by ~9.9 million (~20%). Thus, hard numbers say that so called independence was a calamity comparable to WWII.

    Replies: @AP, @Mr. Hack

    The conversation at hand regards the Holodomor period, roughly from 1930-1933. You’re looking at a much larger swath of time, from 1922-1941, not really comparable. Also, it’s well known that the Komuna was not interested in announcing to the world the excesses and horrors that were experienced in Ukraine due to its own blatantly corrupt and inhumane policies that resulted in the deaths of millions of its own citizens and therefore could skew the stats to try and cover up their own crimes, and now it looks like you’re trying to continue their game of hide and obfuscate and continue the ruse – such a contemptible and heartless sovok you appear to be. 🙁

    • Disagree: AltanBakshi
  252. @AltanBakshi
    @AP

    Actually I wanted to agree with you on this part:


    Because loss of population due to territorial losses, emigration, and lower birth rate is really the same as loss of population due to starvation and killing. So if you had one child rather than four, you “killed” three children. Hard numbers. Amazing logic.
     
    But I accidentally clicked disagree, our many debates have clearly made some negative effects on my reflexes...

    But still there is some truth in AnonFromTNs statement. Independence of Ukraine has not at least solved anything for Ukrainians in the spheres of economic well being and political security or stability.

    Replies: @AP

    Actually I wanted to agree with you on this part

    Thank you.

    But still there is some truth in AnonFromTNs statement. Independence of Ukraine has not at least solved anything for Ukrainians in the spheres of economic well being and political security or stability

    This is not wrong; here is Ukraine’s per capita GDP in constant dollars:

    https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.KD?locations=UA

    However the essential problem has not been independence but two related issues:

    1. Soviets created borders that included within Ukraine large territories whose populations were hostile (Crimea) or indifferent/sceptical (Donbas) towards Ukrainian statehood. There were some people like that in the rest of Ukraine but with these territories, the country was hobbled with perhaps 40% of the population not caring about it.

    2. Ukraine’s leadership was pretty much the old Soviet comprador elite – a combination of traitors and those too incompetent to make it in Moscow so they were relegated to provincial Ukraine. The natives among them betrayed their people by becoming communists and then betrayed the communist regime by ending the USSR and cutting a deal with nationalist activists in which the nationalists acquiesced to let the elites keep political and economic control in exchange for getting the schools and trappings of statehood. Of course not all of them were even natives. Yanukovich’s PM Azarov came to Ukraine from Russia in the 1980s when he was in his thirties. Naturally the Soviet elites were horrible economic stewards, who got rich while driving the country into the ground.

    (2) would have been impossible without (1).

    (1) was resolved in 2014. So after about 25 years of being inherently crippled Ukraine finally had a chance for normal development. It will take a long time to recover from those 25 lost years but until COVID, after a difficult 2014-2015 the progress was clear. By 2019, despite low-grade war in the East, Ukraine’s GDP per capita in constant dollars had exceeded the Yanukovich years (see link) and was approaching the post-Soviet high of 2008. Wages in early 2020 were no longer the second lowest in Europe but the third lowest. In net terms they were higher than Belarus and Armenia (and tied with Georgia); adjusted for cost of living they were higher than Moldova and Armenia:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage

    The population’s geopolitical orientation is much more solidly oriented towards its westward neighbors, etc.

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @AP

    Maybe Galicia and Volyn is oriented towards Poland, but in my opinion Romania is even more "oriental" country than Russia, or do you mean Moldova? If we are speaking about geopolitical orientation and westward neighbours. What then if Belarus will be integrated with Russia? Then Ukraine would be a like a caterpillar midst of Russian lands and that western orientation would not make any sense then.

    Still I believe that faith in Ukrainian nationalism and strong desire for rejecting close ties to Russia is important only for a minority of Ukrainians, with or without Donbass. Like i once mentioned to Mr. Hack, I dont believe that vast majority of Zelenskys voters had any strong nationalist or Russophobic intentions, even if Zelensky is not any friend of Russia, but he is no Ukrainian nationalist, nor are his voters.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @AP

  253. @AP
    @AltanBakshi


    Actually I wanted to agree with you on this part
     
    Thank you.

    But still there is some truth in AnonFromTNs statement. Independence of Ukraine has not at least solved anything for Ukrainians in the spheres of economic well being and political security or stability
     
    This is not wrong; here is Ukraine’s per capita GDP in constant dollars:

    https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.KD?locations=UA

    However the essential problem has not been independence but two related issues:

    1. Soviets created borders that included within Ukraine large territories whose populations were hostile (Crimea) or indifferent/sceptical (Donbas) towards Ukrainian statehood. There were some people like that in the rest of Ukraine but with these territories, the country was hobbled with perhaps 40% of the population not caring about it.

    2. Ukraine’s leadership was pretty much the old Soviet comprador elite - a combination of traitors and those too incompetent to make it in Moscow so they were relegated to provincial Ukraine. The natives among them betrayed their people by becoming communists and then betrayed the communist regime by ending the USSR and cutting a deal with nationalist activists in which the nationalists acquiesced to let the elites keep political and economic control in exchange for getting the schools and trappings of statehood. Of course not all of them were even natives. Yanukovich’s PM Azarov came to Ukraine from Russia in the 1980s when he was in his thirties. Naturally the Soviet elites were horrible economic stewards, who got rich while driving the country into the ground.

    (2) would have been impossible without (1).

    (1) was resolved in 2014. So after about 25 years of being inherently crippled Ukraine finally had a chance for normal development. It will take a long time to recover from those 25 lost years but until COVID, after a difficult 2014-2015 the progress was clear. By 2019, despite low-grade war in the East, Ukraine’s GDP per capita in constant dollars had exceeded the Yanukovich years (see link) and was approaching the post-Soviet high of 2008. Wages in early 2020 were no longer the second lowest in Europe but the third lowest. In net terms they were higher than Belarus and Armenia (and tied with Georgia); adjusted for cost of living they were higher than Moldova and Armenia:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage

    The population’s geopolitical orientation is much more solidly oriented towards its westward neighbors, etc.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    Maybe Galicia and Volyn is oriented towards Poland, but in my opinion Romania is even more “oriental” country than Russia, or do you mean Moldova? If we are speaking about geopolitical orientation and westward neighbours. What then if Belarus will be integrated with Russia? Then Ukraine would be a like a caterpillar midst of Russian lands and that western orientation would not make any sense then.

    Still I believe that faith in Ukrainian nationalism and strong desire for rejecting close ties to Russia is important only for a minority of Ukrainians, with or without Donbass. Like i once mentioned to Mr. Hack, I dont believe that vast majority of Zelenskys voters had any strong nationalist or Russophobic intentions, even if Zelensky is not any friend of Russia, but he is no Ukrainian nationalist, nor are his voters.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @AltanBakshi

    If you "disagree" with my comment #253, at least have the decency of explaining what exactly about it you find disagreeable?

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    , @AP
    @AltanBakshi


    Maybe Galicia and Volyn is oriented towards Poland
     
    And Kiev. And the Right Bank (Vynnytsia, Zhytomir). Even a place like Odessa (much closer to EU Romania than to Russia) is divided in attitude, without a clear preference for Eurasia vs. EU.

    What then if Belarus will be integrated with Russia? Then Ukraine would be a like a caterpillar midst of Russian lands
     
    A bit like Austria during the Cold War, though more extreme. This would be a problem in case of an economic blockade or a new Cold War between the EU and Eurasia, but otherwise not really. Ukraine still has a large border with EU members Poland, Slovakia, Hungary and Romania and secure global ports in Odessa and Mykolayiv.

    I dont believe that vast majority of Zelenskys voters had any strong nationalist or Russophobic intentions, even if Zelensky is not any friend of Russia, but he is no Ukrainian nationalist, nor are his voters.
     
    Zelensky works as a softer nationalist than Poroshenko, but he praised those who like Bandera and made clear that he would pursue ongoing integration with the EU. This idea that he or his voters are not pro-West is a cope by desperate Russian nationalists wanting some “good news,” and a portrayal by Poroshenko to try to get voters to overlook his own poor progress in combatting corruption.

    There is a party in Ukraine that actually does want integration with Russia rather than the EU. It gets about 20% support. It is despised not only in Galicia and Volhynia but also in Kiev. It doesn’t win in Odessa, either, despite enjoying some popularity there, but only has success in Kharkiv.
  254. @AltanBakshi
    @AP

    Maybe Galicia and Volyn is oriented towards Poland, but in my opinion Romania is even more "oriental" country than Russia, or do you mean Moldova? If we are speaking about geopolitical orientation and westward neighbours. What then if Belarus will be integrated with Russia? Then Ukraine would be a like a caterpillar midst of Russian lands and that western orientation would not make any sense then.

    Still I believe that faith in Ukrainian nationalism and strong desire for rejecting close ties to Russia is important only for a minority of Ukrainians, with or without Donbass. Like i once mentioned to Mr. Hack, I dont believe that vast majority of Zelenskys voters had any strong nationalist or Russophobic intentions, even if Zelensky is not any friend of Russia, but he is no Ukrainian nationalist, nor are his voters.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @AP

    If you “disagree” with my comment #253, at least have the decency of explaining what exactly about it you find disagreeable?

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @Mr. Hack


    " such a contemptible and heartless sovok you appear to be"
     
    This I find greatly disagreeable, its other way round for AnonFromTN suffers from too great heart, which has made him maybe too pessimistic and melancholic...

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  255. @AP
    @AnonFromTN


    So, between 1922 and 1941 the population grew by 15.8 million (~60%) (how plausible does the holodomor narrative sound?).
     
    Large-scale population growth in the 1920s (TFR 5.39 in 1925), plus annexation of parts of Poland and Ukraine in 1939 (approximately another 7 million people), plus settlement by Russian colonists. How stupid do you think readers are?

    Thus, hard numbers say that so called independence was a calamity comparable to WWII.
     
    Because loss of population due to territorial losses, emigration, and lower birth rate is really the same as loss of population due to starvation and killing. So if you had one child rather than four, you "killed" three children. Hard numbers. Amazing logic.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @AnonFromTN, @Gerard-Mandela

    territorial losses

    I did not want to go into that, but your Freudian slip of tongue made me. So, let’s look at the numbers before Ukraine lost any territory
    1989 – 51,700,000
    2000 – 48,838,000
    2013 – 45,455,000
    Simple math: Ukraine was losing 271,000 residents per year.
    Let’s ignore the fact that war always reduces birth rate and increases death rate and linearly extrapolate to 2020. We get expected 43,554,000 in the whole of Ukraine’s former territory. It is widely known that the total number of residents in Crimea, Lugansk, and Donetsk People’s Republics is ~ 6 million (to be more exact, 2,362,000, 1,439,000, and 2,260,000, respectively). Not even counting hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians who ran away to Russia as war refugees or otherwise and got citizenship or permanent residency, 43.55 million minus 6 million gives 37.55 million maximum in the rump of Ukraine.

    Thus, it follows that official number 41,785,800 is a lie, exactly like most statements of post-coup Ukrainian governments. Case closed.

    • Replies: @AP
    @AnonFromTN


    Thus, it follows that official number 41,785,800 is a lie
     
    The only “lie” is your presentation of 41,785,800 as the official population. This number excludes Crimea but includes all of Donbas, including the separatist republics.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Ukraine

    “In July 2020 the total population of Ukraine was estimated to be 41,762,138[6] excluding the Autonomous Republic of Crimea and Sevastopol, which were annexed by Russia in 2014. (If these two territories are included in the demographics of Ukraine, the population rises by approximately 2.25 million, to 44 million). During the 2014 Ukrainian Crisis, the Ukrainian Government also lost control of portions of the Donbass region, including major cities such as Luhansk, Donetsk and Horlivka. If the populations of these cities are subtracted from Ukraine's current demographics, the total population of Ukraine falls below 40 million. In 2019 an electronic census estimated that Ukraine's population, minus the lost Crimean and Donbass populations, to be 37.3 million.”

    This is a good example of what your conclusions and assumptions of Ukraine are worth.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

    , @Gerard.Gerard
    @AnonFromTN


    Ukraine was losing 271,000 residents per year
     
    Incorrect there Anon. Ukrainian NATURAL POPULATION loss per year ( births minus deaths) is 200000-270000+, a number that itself is a huge disaster....... their actual population loss is many magnitudes higher because it is including migration.

    Post evromaidan farce, the natural population loss is a disastrous 1.4 million+. That is ACTUAL genocide, not the laughable imaginary one propogated by retarded morons on here, plagiarising lies from subhuman banderist scum in America ( who of course were never even in that area affected to even make the fantasist claims!)

    Russia has had natural population growth in that same time, all except one year being positive--so we are talking about the difference in population dynamics "only" being 1.2 million times better on Russian side for some years, LOL. That is something the authorities should emphasise more because it is incredible and also ridiculous. We are talking of 2 states that have lived as one people, one culture and suffered identical problems in 90's, post-USSR world. There should be zero excuse for that high a disparity.... especially when climate, daylight, drinking habits and some ethnic issues should give Russia a big disadvantage on population dynamics compared to Ukraine. The numbers are that high and traceable to deliberately incompetent decision making..... I think that genocide is the only correct term to describe what has happened in Ukraine now.

    And don't forget that only starting now we are both going into period of after-effects from 90's and low population born then directly forcing a low birth rate now for the next 5 years at least. Russia is significantly better position to reduce negative impacts from this.... and can also rely on immigration ( several hundred thousand Ukrainians a year in addition to other ex-USSR states) to partially reduce the problem. On the positive side for Ukrainians..... they will still be naming their kids names IDENTICAL to Russians in popularity, so they can just try and cheat by attaching themselves to our numbers.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

  256. Are the Armenophobes here keeping track of the azerbaijani losses? You all seemed so certain those roaches had the upper hand.

    • Replies: @AP
    @LG

    Do you have links to a good source of up to date info about this war?

    , @iffen
    @LG

    On topic comments on the war are likely lost for this post. As frequently happens with
    AK's comment section, it has devolved into a Slavic slugfest over who were kangz then are who are kangz now.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Yevardian

  257. @AnonFromTN
    @AP


    territorial losses
     
    I did not want to go into that, but your Freudian slip of tongue made me. So, let’s look at the numbers before Ukraine lost any territory
    1989 – 51,700,000
    2000 – 48,838,000
    2013 – 45,455,000
    Simple math: Ukraine was losing 271,000 residents per year.
    Let’s ignore the fact that war always reduces birth rate and increases death rate and linearly extrapolate to 2020. We get expected 43,554,000 in the whole of Ukraine’s former territory. It is widely known that the total number of residents in Crimea, Lugansk, and Donetsk People’s Republics is ~ 6 million (to be more exact, 2,362,000, 1,439,000, and 2,260,000, respectively). Not even counting hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians who ran away to Russia as war refugees or otherwise and got citizenship or permanent residency, 43.55 million minus 6 million gives 37.55 million maximum in the rump of Ukraine.

    Thus, it follows that official number 41,785,800 is a lie, exactly like most statements of post-coup Ukrainian governments. Case closed.

    Replies: @AP, @Gerard.Gerard

    Thus, it follows that official number 41,785,800 is a lie

    The only “lie” is your presentation of 41,785,800 as the official population. This number excludes Crimea but includes all of Donbas, including the separatist republics.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Ukraine

    “In July 2020 the total population of Ukraine was estimated to be 41,762,138[6] excluding the Autonomous Republic of Crimea and Sevastopol, which were annexed by Russia in 2014. (If these two territories are included in the demographics of Ukraine, the population rises by approximately 2.25 million, to 44 million). During the 2014 Ukrainian Crisis, the Ukrainian Government also lost control of portions of the Donbass region, including major cities such as Luhansk, Donetsk and Horlivka. If the populations of these cities are subtracted from Ukraine’s current demographics, the total population of Ukraine falls below 40 million. In 2019 an electronic census estimated that Ukraine’s population, minus the lost Crimean and Donbass populations, to be 37.3 million.”

    This is a good example of what your conclusions and assumptions of Ukraine are worth.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    @AP

    Simple truth (which Ukies will deny, as usual, because the truth is never “svido”) is that Kiev regime “counting” the population of Lugansk and Donetsk People’s Republics is about as credible and makes as much sense as me counting the population of Burkina Faso.

    Replies: @AP

  258. @AP
    @AnonFromTN


    Thus, it follows that official number 41,785,800 is a lie
     
    The only “lie” is your presentation of 41,785,800 as the official population. This number excludes Crimea but includes all of Donbas, including the separatist republics.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Ukraine

    “In July 2020 the total population of Ukraine was estimated to be 41,762,138[6] excluding the Autonomous Republic of Crimea and Sevastopol, which were annexed by Russia in 2014. (If these two territories are included in the demographics of Ukraine, the population rises by approximately 2.25 million, to 44 million). During the 2014 Ukrainian Crisis, the Ukrainian Government also lost control of portions of the Donbass region, including major cities such as Luhansk, Donetsk and Horlivka. If the populations of these cities are subtracted from Ukraine's current demographics, the total population of Ukraine falls below 40 million. In 2019 an electronic census estimated that Ukraine's population, minus the lost Crimean and Donbass populations, to be 37.3 million.”

    This is a good example of what your conclusions and assumptions of Ukraine are worth.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

    Simple truth (which Ukies will deny, as usual, because the truth is never “svido”) is that Kiev regime “counting” the population of Lugansk and Donetsk People’s Republics is about as credible and makes as much sense as me counting the population of Burkina Faso.

    • Replies: @AP
    @AnonFromTN


    Simple truth (which Ukies will deny, as usual
     
    The above was an adequate example of your approach to truth.

    Ukraine counted Donbas to get its figure of 41 million, you made a false allegation that the 41 million was inflated because of the loss of Donbas. You even called the Ukrainian figure a “lie.”

    Kiev regime “counting” the population of Lugansk and Donetsk People’s Republics is about as credible and makes as much sense as me counting the population of Burkina Faso
     
    And yet the number including Donbas matched your own estimate. Lol.

    If this is your confession about your own credibility, it may be the most honest thing you’ve ever written that involves Ukraine.
  259. @AltanBakshi
    @AP

    Maybe Galicia and Volyn is oriented towards Poland, but in my opinion Romania is even more "oriental" country than Russia, or do you mean Moldova? If we are speaking about geopolitical orientation and westward neighbours. What then if Belarus will be integrated with Russia? Then Ukraine would be a like a caterpillar midst of Russian lands and that western orientation would not make any sense then.

    Still I believe that faith in Ukrainian nationalism and strong desire for rejecting close ties to Russia is important only for a minority of Ukrainians, with or without Donbass. Like i once mentioned to Mr. Hack, I dont believe that vast majority of Zelenskys voters had any strong nationalist or Russophobic intentions, even if Zelensky is not any friend of Russia, but he is no Ukrainian nationalist, nor are his voters.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @AP

    Maybe Galicia and Volyn is oriented towards Poland

    And Kiev. And the Right Bank (Vynnytsia, Zhytomir). Even a place like Odessa (much closer to EU Romania than to Russia) is divided in attitude, without a clear preference for Eurasia vs. EU.

    What then if Belarus will be integrated with Russia? Then Ukraine would be a like a caterpillar midst of Russian lands

    A bit like Austria during the Cold War, though more extreme. This would be a problem in case of an economic blockade or a new Cold War between the EU and Eurasia, but otherwise not really. Ukraine still has a large border with EU members Poland, Slovakia, Hungary and Romania and secure global ports in Odessa and Mykolayiv.

    I dont believe that vast majority of Zelenskys voters had any strong nationalist or Russophobic intentions, even if Zelensky is not any friend of Russia, but he is no Ukrainian nationalist, nor are his voters.

    Zelensky works as a softer nationalist than Poroshenko, but he praised those who like Bandera and made clear that he would pursue ongoing integration with the EU. This idea that he or his voters are not pro-West is a cope by desperate Russian nationalists wanting some “good news,” and a portrayal by Poroshenko to try to get voters to overlook his own poor progress in combatting corruption.

    There is a party in Ukraine that actually does want integration with Russia rather than the EU. It gets about 20% support. It is despised not only in Galicia and Volhynia but also in Kiev. It doesn’t win in Odessa, either, despite enjoying some popularity there, but only has success in Kharkiv.

  260. @LG
    Are the Armenophobes here keeping track of the azerbaijani losses? You all seemed so certain those roaches had the upper hand.

    Replies: @AP, @iffen

    Do you have links to a good source of up to date info about this war?

  261. Unless either side shows intolerance to high casualties, the war will be long and bloody. No Western country will give real help to Armenia, the Empire and its sidekicks will do what they always do: raise stink.

    My bet is that as long as the war is limited to Karabakh, Putin will be reluctant to interfere. If he ever does, Russia will protect Armenia form obliteration, as it did before (one can argue whether it was smart before and whether it would be smart now). If Pashinian and his sorosoids get deposed, it might stimulate Putin. If Turkey interferes openly, it might trigger Putin’s interference even while sorosoids are in power in Armenia. Whichever way the events develop, we can be sure about one thing only: a lot of Armenians and Azeris will die.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    @AnonFromTN

    Turkey is blessed by the gods of the Internet, providing them with unlimited Chad powers.

    https://youtu.be/48AbFwlXfFI

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

  262. @Avery
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Karsparov's mother was Armenian.
    Father Jewish.
    Father died when Kasparov was about 7 years old.
    His mother raised him, and he took his mother's last name.

    By Jewish law/custom/tradition he is not considered Jewish, because his mother is not Jewish. He is Armenian. Half or not.

    Kasparov is unquestionably the greatest chess Grandmaster to have ever lived.
    But he is a certifiable nut.
    Him wasting his life trying to unseat Pres. Putin is proof positive that he is off the rails.
    People of unusual genius in one particular field are, more often than not, completely disconnected from reality, when it comes to ordinary human affairs.

    He does have something human in him though: when the Baku massacres of (Soviet) Armenian civilians living in Baku began (1990), Kasparov chartered a plane and got himself and his relatives out of there. He later sold his world crown to help those who had escaped the Baku massacres (...at the hands of Caspian Turk Musavat party fascist goons).

    Replies: @martin_2

    Magnus Carlsen is a more likely candidate for the greatest player of all time. Unlike in other sports and games, there is a way of objectively measuring it. They put the positions of the historic games of chess greats into a chess computer and found that Carlsen was the player who most often got it right, that is to say, the computer made the same move as he had done at the time.

    • Replies: @yakushimaru
    @martin_2

    Training conditions are different.

  263. Tom de Waal called out:

    A great on target shot.

    • Agree: Blinky Bill
  264. @reiner Tor
    @Ano4

    True, but Stalin didn’t openly say such things.

    Replies: @Ano4, @Autists Anonymous Rehab Camp Fugitive

    Neither did uncle Adolf tbh.

  265. @AltanBakshi
    @Anondude

    So its wrong to analyze motivations for genocide, how much one can be an ass?
    Ottomans didnt commit large scale genocides or ethnic cleansings of minorities for hundreds of years, when they were the paramount power of the Balkans, Caucasus, Middle East and Mediterranean. So you claim that its futile to deduct and understand the motivations of Ottoman politival leaders? Hey ignoramus understanding something is not same as validating or accepting mistaken views or opinions.

    The Ottoman empire was an ancient empire which was crumbling on many directions, both internal and external, it had minorities that truly despised their overlords, and often for justifiable reasons, minorities which could not be equal citizens of an empire which claimed officially to be a successor of ancient Islamic Caliphate. The empire during its long decay had endured over a one hundred years of revolts and wars caused by those rebellious populations, like the many Greek, Serb, Romanian and Bulgarian revolts, and almost always foreign powers helped or directly interfered on behalf of those non muslim minorities.

    If that would be all, but no, the Ottomans were waging desperate war on three or four fronts against superior enemy. On the Caucasus, on the Iraq, on the Palestine and Arabia. So I am hand wawing genocide because I try to understand the motivations of the perpetrators?
    How stupid one can be, really AK please block this clown.

    What Ottomans did was exremely wrong, and most of the masterminds of the genocide were thankfully hunted down and assasinated by Armenians or they met very bad fates like Enver Pasha. But there is nothing wrong in trying to understand the reasons and causes that were driving the three Pashas who ruled the Ottoman Empire. Actually one can see growing sense of desperation by the Ottomans through the 19th and early 20th Century. For in the war of Bulgarian liberation in 1877-78 thry already started to commit acts of genocide but on a much smaller scale. Downfalls of empires are not nice thing and people who are cornered like a beasts and under a siege often start to spiral on the path of madness. Even Nazis commited their greatest atrocities in the last years of the war.

    Replies: @sher singh

    https://www.sikhphilosophy.net/threads/the-sant-sipahi-tradition-flows-from-guru-nanak-himself.36543/

    When, after a duel with Guru Hagobind, Painda Khan, who was lying mortally wounded, repented, the merciful Guru took his head upon his lap and shielded the sun from his eyes saying, ‘Painda it is time to repeat the ‘kalmia.’ Painda Khan was overwhelmed by the gesture. His last words were, ‘now Guru, your sword has become my kalmia.’

    The Tenth Nanak, Gobind Singh specifically forbade the massacre of fleeing enemy. This injunction is based on the Sikh doctrine, that that there is no ‘other’ among humans, as all derive origin from the same divine entity, the common Father/Mother of all.

    Once they abandon evil ways or cease to support evil causes, they must not be molested. Qazi Nur Muhammad records, `they never kill a retreating foe.’[5] Karl Marx thinks that the Sikhs failed to consolidate their victory over the British at Mudki on December 21, 1845 because they would not attack a defeated foe.[6]

    [MORE]

    The Guru expects his followers not to shirk battle for a worthy cause. The cause has been defined clearly. It is the Creator’s Will that absolute justice should pervade all human institutions, that everyone must enjoy the freedom of worship and to preserve ones human dignity.

    This is the basis of the Sikh political thought in Guru Granth. Akalpurakh disapproves of oppression (har jio hankar naa bhaaviee) born of impulse of aggression. In his Babarvani verses, Guru Nanak expounds the theory that it is necessary for a spiritually oriented person to physically resist evil-doers. He denounces the Lodhis who failed to protect the women of Hind and its culture. The conclusion is that the devotees who strive for spiritual progress must resist oppression to express their love for Him.

    Physical resistance to evil is therefore necessary for a person having spiritual aspirations. This is the ‘righteous cause’ that must be pursued ‘to the point of courting martyrdom (mar se mansa sooria hak hai je hoe marahe parvano).’ Defining the righteous cause more explicitly, Guru Arjun told Adit Soini, ‘while engaged in battle, contemplate on Akalpurakh, Who destroys evil-doers; fight an ethical battle on behalf of the oppressed poor.’[1]

    The same idea is contained in the verses of Kabir included in the scripture. ‘Truly brave is one who fights for the deprived,’ says the Bhagat. (soora so pehchanie jo lare deen ke het). While engaged in this pious duty, the battlefield must never be abandoned. (purja purja kat marai kbhun na chhade khet).

    Thoughts?

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @sher singh


    Thoughts?
     
    What I could say? Everything in your citations is Dharma, although absolute justice in human institutions sounds far fetched in current situation, and there is not just battle against external enemies, but internal too.
  266. In the tradition of Soviet military,thought, the Russians are great believers in overwhelming through numbers to an apparently excessive extent. So swarms of cheap drones being used for target spotting by massed artillery would be the style of warmaking they’d teach. However their allies probably don’t have (have not been supplied with) sufficient quantities of materiel to use Russian doctrine effectively.

  267. @sher singh
    @AltanBakshi

    https://www.sikhphilosophy.net/threads/the-sant-sipahi-tradition-flows-from-guru-nanak-himself.36543/


    When, after a duel with Guru Hagobind, Painda Khan, who was lying mortally wounded, repented, the merciful Guru took his head upon his lap and shielded the sun from his eyes saying, ‘Painda it is time to repeat the ‘kalmia.’ Painda Khan was overwhelmed by the gesture. His last words were, ‘now Guru, your sword has become my kalmia.’
     

    The Tenth Nanak, Gobind Singh specifically forbade the massacre of fleeing enemy. This injunction is based on the Sikh doctrine, that that there is no ‘other’ among humans, as all derive origin from the same divine entity, the common Father/Mother of all.

    Once they abandon evil ways or cease to support evil causes, they must not be molested. Qazi Nur Muhammad records, `they never kill a retreating foe.’[5] Karl Marx thinks that the Sikhs failed to consolidate their victory over the British at Mudki on December 21, 1845 because they would not attack a defeated foe.[6]
     

    The Guru expects his followers not to shirk battle for a worthy cause. The cause has been defined clearly. It is the Creator’s Will that absolute justice should pervade all human institutions, that everyone must enjoy the freedom of worship and to preserve ones human dignity.

    This is the basis of the Sikh political thought in Guru Granth. Akalpurakh disapproves of oppression (har jio hankar naa bhaaviee) born of impulse of aggression. In his Babarvani verses, Guru Nanak expounds the theory that it is necessary for a spiritually oriented person to physically resist evil-doers. He denounces the Lodhis who failed to protect the women of Hind and its culture. The conclusion is that the devotees who strive for spiritual progress must resist oppression to express their love for Him.

    Physical resistance to evil is therefore necessary for a person having spiritual aspirations. This is the ‘righteous cause’ that must be pursued ‘to the point of courting martyrdom (mar se mansa sooria hak hai je hoe marahe parvano).’ Defining the righteous cause more explicitly, Guru Arjun told Adit Soini, ‘while engaged in battle, contemplate on Akalpurakh, Who destroys evil-doers; fight an ethical battle on behalf of the oppressed poor.’[1]

    The same idea is contained in the verses of Kabir included in the scripture. ‘Truly brave is one who fights for the deprived,’ says the Bhagat. (soora so pehchanie jo lare deen ke het). While engaged in this pious duty, the battlefield must never be abandoned. (purja purja kat marai kbhun na chhade khet).

     

    Thoughts?

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    Thoughts?

    What I could say? Everything in your citations is Dharma, although absolute justice in human institutions sounds far fetched in current situation, and there is not just battle against external enemies, but internal too.

  268. @LG
    Are the Armenophobes here keeping track of the azerbaijani losses? You all seemed so certain those roaches had the upper hand.

    Replies: @AP, @iffen

    On topic comments on the war are likely lost for this post. As frequently happens with
    AK’s comment section, it has devolved into a Slavic slugfest over who were kangz then are who are kangz now.

    • Agree: Thulean Friend
    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @iffen

    There’s also the important question of who wuz da innocentest victimz.

    To which the answer is obviously Hungarians.

    Replies: @iffen

    , @Yevardian
    @iffen

    Well, it's the usual suspects who make every single thread about Ukraine. I have never met a prouder nationality with less in their history to be proud about than these people, with the possible exception of Albanians.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @AP

  269. @Ano4
    @Mr. Hack

    By the beginning of the 30ies Russian intelligentsia was already massacred en masse. Ukrainian intelligentsia should have actually felt much happier to have survived a few years more.

    At least Ukrainians had the korenizatsia to compensate for their cultural losses. Russians had nothing of the kind until the late 50ies and early 60ies with the rural writers (Shukshin a.s.o) remember how badly things turned up for Yessenin, despite him trying to suck up to the Soviets. Remember Bulgakov asking comrade Stalin to be either left alone, shot or allowed to immigrate.

    Times were tough...

    (But I understand that true compassion begins at home and that Ukrainian nationalists will always care more for the suffering of their people instead of recognizing that their suffering was nothing special).

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    One of korenizatsiya’s main benefits was to help the Ukrainian populace to better become acquainted with its own literary language, that had been neglected in deference to Russian that was favored during Czarist times. The Russian language was much more established at this time as the favored language of communication throughout the empire and did not need this special period of education within Russia itself. I don’t think that the subject of history was taught much in either republic during the 1920’s, but was being developed to a greater degree to emphasize the new ideological underpinnings of the new political system. Perhaps I’m wrong about this?

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @Mr. Hack

    History was a very important topic in the Soviet school curriculum. The most convincing and well written ancient and early middle ages history manual I ever read was an old book from our family collection. It was a Soviet high school manual published in 1948: very clear, logical, consistent and to the point. And thoroughly Stalinist...

    🙂

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  270. @iffen
    @LG

    On topic comments on the war are likely lost for this post. As frequently happens with
    AK's comment section, it has devolved into a Slavic slugfest over who were kangz then are who are kangz now.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Yevardian

    There’s also the important question of who wuz da innocentest victimz.

    To which the answer is obviously Hungarians.

    • Agree: Daniel Chieh
    • LOL: AP, Ano4
    • Replies: @iffen
    @reiner Tor

    To which the answer is obviously Hungarians.

    Yeah, right.

    From Wiki:


    At the time of the Hungarian migration, the land was inhabited only by a sparse population of Slavs, numbering about 200,000,[37] who were either assimilated or enslaved by the Hungarians.
     
    Can you say reparations?

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @Kent Nationalist

  271. @Mr. Hack
    @AltanBakshi

    If you "disagree" with my comment #253, at least have the decency of explaining what exactly about it you find disagreeable?

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    ” such a contemptible and heartless sovok you appear to be”

    This I find greatly disagreeable, its other way round for AnonFromTN suffers from too great heart, which has made him maybe too pessimistic and melancholic…

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @AltanBakshi

    Sure, one can dispute the number of victims that died during the Holodomor, but he seems to disparage the whole idea. He should know better, as he claims to have been born in Eastern Ukraine where this immense humanitarian crime took place. I have family that succumbed during this tragedy, so it's personal for me, for him, perhaps, his family was a part of those that helped to carry out the orders from Moscow to requisition foodstuffs? My mother, who lived through this tragedy as a child, didn't talk very much to me about any related details, but was clear, however, not to solely assign any responsibility on Russians or perhaps Jews when assessing any blame for this evil tragedy, but made it clear that there were plenty of our own "nashi" that were involved in carrying out the requisitioning. :-(

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

  272. PISA and SAT estimates are a crapshoot because if the overwhelming test prep and cheating going on in East Asia and India, because the College Board basically recycles tests, as for the Balkans maybe students tend to just not care.

  273. This also goes for estimates of Armenian vs. Azerbaijan IQ, maybe Armenian and Azeri students just do not care enough about PISA test to waste time answering them, doofuses like Sailer and his culties just do not want to admit that mass East Asian and Indian cheating leads to any relationship between SAT scores and innate intelligence being inferred based on SAT scores being basically invalid. Or maybe acknowledging Asian privilege and test prep and cheating leaving to wildly inflated standardized test scores will lead the way to whites being questioned as how alledged white privilege lead to higher test scores? May may be Sailer’s and his ilk’s motive for ignoring Asian cheating in standardized tests. Basically you can’t explain Armenian and Azeri battlefield performance, or lack thereof, based on results of PISA tests.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    @Znzn

    Yes, the Caucasoids are reknown for their intellectual achievements as a culture.

    Replies: @Ano4

  274. @AnonFromTN
    @AP

    Simple truth (which Ukies will deny, as usual, because the truth is never “svido”) is that Kiev regime “counting” the population of Lugansk and Donetsk People’s Republics is about as credible and makes as much sense as me counting the population of Burkina Faso.

    Replies: @AP

    Simple truth (which Ukies will deny, as usual

    The above was an adequate example of your approach to truth.

    Ukraine counted Donbas to get its figure of 41 million, you made a false allegation that the 41 million was inflated because of the loss of Donbas. You even called the Ukrainian figure a “lie.”

    Kiev regime “counting” the population of Lugansk and Donetsk People’s Republics is about as credible and makes as much sense as me counting the population of Burkina Faso

    And yet the number including Donbas matched your own estimate. Lol.

    If this is your confession about your own credibility, it may be the most honest thing you’ve ever written that involves Ukraine.

  275. @Znzn
    This also goes for estimates of Armenian vs. Azerbaijan IQ, maybe Armenian and Azeri students just do not care enough about PISA test to waste time answering them, doofuses like Sailer and his culties just do not want to admit that mass East Asian and Indian cheating leads to any relationship between SAT scores and innate intelligence being inferred based on SAT scores being basically invalid. Or maybe acknowledging Asian privilege and test prep and cheating leaving to wildly inflated standardized test scores will lead the way to whites being questioned as how alledged white privilege lead to higher test scores? May may be Sailer's and his ilk's motive for ignoring Asian cheating in standardized tests. Basically you can't explain Armenian and Azeri battlefield performance, or lack thereof, based on results of PISA tests.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    Yes, the Caucasoids are reknown for their intellectual achievements as a culture.

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @Daniel Chieh

    To be fair they have had very ancient civilizations there and the Armenian is one of them. But modern day and age is certainly not a display of great achievements in the Caucasus region. Although their talents benefited other cultures that have been able to attract them. I don't think the future has anything exceptionally bright in hold for the peoples of the Caucasus mountains. Of course their nationalists would disagree...

    Replies: @128, @Dmitry

  276. @reiner Tor
    @iffen

    There’s also the important question of who wuz da innocentest victimz.

    To which the answer is obviously Hungarians.

    Replies: @iffen

    To which the answer is obviously Hungarians.

    Yeah, right.

    From Wiki:

    At the time of the Hungarian migration, the land was inhabited only by a sparse population of Slavs, numbering about 200,000,[37] who were either assimilated or enslaved by the Hungarians.

    Can you say reparations?

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    @iffen

    Surely their women were just drawn to the Magyars because of the impressive chests.

    I've heard the same argument used for Celtic genes in Iceland, so why won't it work for the Hungarians?

    , @Kent Nationalist
    @iffen

    Let's not even mention the Battles of Lechfeld and the Catalunyan Fields

  277. @Daniel Chieh
    @Znzn

    Yes, the Caucasoids are reknown for their intellectual achievements as a culture.

    Replies: @Ano4

    To be fair they have had very ancient civilizations there and the Armenian is one of them. But modern day and age is certainly not a display of great achievements in the Caucasus region. Although their talents benefited other cultures that have been able to attract them. I don’t think the future has anything exceptionally bright in hold for the peoples of the Caucasus mountains. Of course their nationalists would disagree…

    • Replies: @128
    @Ano4

    Well the Basques were not known for much in Spain, except for the things they are infamous for, but are known are being very good in business in their colonies.

    , @Dmitry
    @Ano4

    I never visited those countries, so I can only have the most superficial knowledge and thoughts about the region.

    But if we look at superficial things, perhaps were little less pessimistic indicators for those countries in recent years.

    They have suffered from mass emigration, but in recent years population seems to be at least relatively stable. Azerbaijan actually has bypassed Belarus in population, while even Armenia's population is not quite collapsing.

    https://i.imgur.com/vgojyzM.jpg

    In terms of recent fertility forecast generalizations ("total fertility rate").

    Georgia seemed quite stable almost around replacement rate of fertility forecast, which is usually considered ideal level for developed country (not that Georgia is developed) by demographers.

    Armenia and Azerbaijan are slightly below replacement in forecast, almost twins in terms of this indicator. If you assumed no emigration, Georgia is not far from the idealized level.

    (Chechen Republic's fertility rate is much higher than neighbours in the region - its "total fertility rate" is usually somewhere above 2,5 - but this "contributing" to the Russian Federation).

    https://i.imgur.com/dSO9LWd.jpg


    In economy - if we look at GDP per capita on PPP basis (which is a bit of a joke measure, but won't be completely untrue). They have all had some significant growth since the lowest base of 2000. (Azerbaijan has oil, so it follows a different pattern).

    https://i.imgur.com/Z1k8lcJ.jpg


    -
    In terms of Georgia and Armenia.

    Before coronavirus and recent anti-Russian rhetoric, Georgia was having one of the world's fastest growing tourism boom.
    https://i.imgur.com/tkdN5Ui.png

    Probably for Georgia, there is some potential for economic development, by being investment hub from Russia. Unlike Armenia, they have sea.

    There is massive real estate investment in Batumi. This is primarily Russian property investment (although they are also receiving a lot of investment from Turkey).

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMxy3fj8QaI

    But Armenia probably has less potential to copy Georgia's tourism/investment model, due to lack of sea.

    Replies: @Thulean Friend, @Mr. Hack

  278. @Mr. Hack
    @Ano4

    One of korenizatsiya's main benefits was to help the Ukrainian populace to better become acquainted with its own literary language, that had been neglected in deference to Russian that was favored during Czarist times. The Russian language was much more established at this time as the favored language of communication throughout the empire and did not need this special period of education within Russia itself. I don't think that the subject of history was taught much in either republic during the 1920's, but was being developed to a greater degree to emphasize the new ideological underpinnings of the new political system. Perhaps I'm wrong about this?

    Replies: @Ano4

    History was a very important topic in the Soviet school curriculum. The most convincing and well written ancient and early middle ages history manual I ever read was an old book from our family collection. It was a Soviet high school manual published in 1948: very clear, logical, consistent and to the point. And thoroughly Stalinist…

    🙂

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Ano4

    No doubt that by 1948 the Soviet system was using every tool within its arsenal to help indoctrinate the masses to its ideology and this would have included history textbooks. My point was that perhaps because the system was new in the 1920's they might not have yet created history textbooks for students in the elementary and high schools? Koronizatsiya after all lasted only through the 1920's and was a measure used of convenience to satisfy the needs of a blossoming, if not submerged new nationality.

    Replies: @Ano4

  279. @iffen
    @reiner Tor

    To which the answer is obviously Hungarians.

    Yeah, right.

    From Wiki:


    At the time of the Hungarian migration, the land was inhabited only by a sparse population of Slavs, numbering about 200,000,[37] who were either assimilated or enslaved by the Hungarians.
     
    Can you say reparations?

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @Kent Nationalist

    Surely their women were just drawn to the Magyars because of the impressive chests.

    I’ve heard the same argument used for Celtic genes in Iceland, so why won’t it work for the Hungarians?

  280. @iffen
    @reiner Tor

    To which the answer is obviously Hungarians.

    Yeah, right.

    From Wiki:


    At the time of the Hungarian migration, the land was inhabited only by a sparse population of Slavs, numbering about 200,000,[37] who were either assimilated or enslaved by the Hungarians.
     
    Can you say reparations?

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @Kent Nationalist

    Let’s not even mention the Battles of Lechfeld and the Catalunyan Fields

  281. @Ano4
    @Daniel Chieh

    To be fair they have had very ancient civilizations there and the Armenian is one of them. But modern day and age is certainly not a display of great achievements in the Caucasus region. Although their talents benefited other cultures that have been able to attract them. I don't think the future has anything exceptionally bright in hold for the peoples of the Caucasus mountains. Of course their nationalists would disagree...

    Replies: @128, @Dmitry

    Well the Basques were not known for much in Spain, except for the things they are infamous for, but are known are being very good in business in their colonies.

  282. @Ano4
    @Mr. Hack

    History was a very important topic in the Soviet school curriculum. The most convincing and well written ancient and early middle ages history manual I ever read was an old book from our family collection. It was a Soviet high school manual published in 1948: very clear, logical, consistent and to the point. And thoroughly Stalinist...

    🙂

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    No doubt that by 1948 the Soviet system was using every tool within its arsenal to help indoctrinate the masses to its ideology and this would have included history textbooks. My point was that perhaps because the system was new in the 1920’s they might not have yet created history textbooks for students in the elementary and high schools? Koronizatsiya after all lasted only through the 1920’s and was a measure used of convenience to satisfy the needs of a blossoming, if not submerged new nationality.

    • Agree: Ano4
    • Replies: @Ano4
    @Mr. Hack

    In the 20ies the Soviet system was not stabilized yet. A lot of social disruption and cultural experimentation was taking place. Soviets were less dogmatic then, the only thing they considered paramount then was the annihilation of the remains of the previous Tsarist social system.

    Korenizatsia played an important role in weakening the "Greater Russian Chauvinism". The attacks against the Orthodox Religion and the attempted "Obnovlenie" of the Church life also targeted the cultural code of the majority of the Russian population. The sexual revolution of the early NEP era weakened the family life. It was in fact similar to the Cultural Marxism of today: reinforce the minorities to weaken the majority and reform the weakened society towards a greater uniformity under a dictatorial command.

    Korenizatsia was the equivalent of the affirmative action of the current age. As soon as the Velikoross majority was weakened enough, the affirmation of the minority cultures was dialed down and Soviet cultural homogenization implemented.

    By that time the pre-revolutionary Russian elites were either executed, starved to death or expulsed into emigration. The local minority cultural personalities often applauded the debasement of their Velikoross competitors. Once the Velikoross have been dealt with, the turn of the minority intellectuals came and they felt the tough love of the Soviet regime in all its brutal strength.

    By then it was too late to cry...

    Replies: @iffen

  283. @AltanBakshi
    @Mr. Hack


    " such a contemptible and heartless sovok you appear to be"
     
    This I find greatly disagreeable, its other way round for AnonFromTN suffers from too great heart, which has made him maybe too pessimistic and melancholic...

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    Sure, one can dispute the number of victims that died during the Holodomor, but he seems to disparage the whole idea. He should know better, as he claims to have been born in Eastern Ukraine where this immense humanitarian crime took place. I have family that succumbed during this tragedy, so it’s personal for me, for him, perhaps, his family was a part of those that helped to carry out the orders from Moscow to requisition foodstuffs? My mother, who lived through this tragedy as a child, didn’t talk very much to me about any related details, but was clear, however, not to solely assign any responsibility on Russians or perhaps Jews when assessing any blame for this evil tragedy, but made it clear that there were plenty of our own “nashi” that were involved in carrying out the requisitioning. 🙁

    • Thanks: AltanBakshi
    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    @Mr. Hack

    There was widespread famine at the time, in Ukraine (actually, it was more severe in Eastern Ukraine and Donbass), Volga region of Russia, and Kazakhstan (where the fraction of the population suffering from hunger was greater than in Ukraine). Quite a few people died of hunger in all these regions.

    From my perspective, three things are important. One, focusing on the famine in Ukraine disregarding everything else is a lie. It’s like saying that a single perforation tooth is the whole stamp. Two, periodic famines in all these regions happened in the Russian Empire long before Soviets. Three, the one in the 1930s was the last widespread famine in the USSR.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  284. @Mr. Hack
    @AltanBakshi

    Sure, one can dispute the number of victims that died during the Holodomor, but he seems to disparage the whole idea. He should know better, as he claims to have been born in Eastern Ukraine where this immense humanitarian crime took place. I have family that succumbed during this tragedy, so it's personal for me, for him, perhaps, his family was a part of those that helped to carry out the orders from Moscow to requisition foodstuffs? My mother, who lived through this tragedy as a child, didn't talk very much to me about any related details, but was clear, however, not to solely assign any responsibility on Russians or perhaps Jews when assessing any blame for this evil tragedy, but made it clear that there were plenty of our own "nashi" that were involved in carrying out the requisitioning. :-(

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

    There was widespread famine at the time, in Ukraine (actually, it was more severe in Eastern Ukraine and Donbass), Volga region of Russia, and Kazakhstan (where the fraction of the population suffering from hunger was greater than in Ukraine). Quite a few people died of hunger in all these regions.

    From my perspective, three things are important. One, focusing on the famine in Ukraine disregarding everything else is a lie. It’s like saying that a single perforation tooth is the whole stamp. Two, periodic famines in all these regions happened in the Russian Empire long before Soviets. Three, the one in the 1930s was the last widespread famine in the USSR.

    • Agree: AltanBakshi, Ano4
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @AnonFromTN

    It's a shame that for whatever reason, Kazakhstan and its diaspora has done very little to make known their very similar famine that also took place roughly during the same time period. I applaud any efforts to bring this immense tragedy to light and strongly feel that there's no need for Ukrainians to monopolize these events. Having said that, harking back to our friend Anon4's astute observation that "charity starts at home", there's no reason for Ukrainians not to commemorate their own tragedy and continue any scholarship to bring more needed facts to life. One difference between the two concurrent tragedies is that within Ukraine the added element of the destruction of its intelligentsia was perpetrated unlike any similar numbers/proportions in Kazakhstan. The similarities and differences need to be further studied and exposed wherever they took place. There's a saying in Ukrainian that obviously doesn't seem to apply to you, Mr. Professor:


    Своя сорочка ближча чим чужа.
     
    It's very hard for me to picture you ever proudly wearing a vishivanka!

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

  285. @AnonFromTN
    @Mr. Hack

    There was widespread famine at the time, in Ukraine (actually, it was more severe in Eastern Ukraine and Donbass), Volga region of Russia, and Kazakhstan (where the fraction of the population suffering from hunger was greater than in Ukraine). Quite a few people died of hunger in all these regions.

    From my perspective, three things are important. One, focusing on the famine in Ukraine disregarding everything else is a lie. It’s like saying that a single perforation tooth is the whole stamp. Two, periodic famines in all these regions happened in the Russian Empire long before Soviets. Three, the one in the 1930s was the last widespread famine in the USSR.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    It’s a shame that for whatever reason, Kazakhstan and its diaspora has done very little to make known their very similar famine that also took place roughly during the same time period. I applaud any efforts to bring this immense tragedy to light and strongly feel that there’s no need for Ukrainians to monopolize these events. Having said that, harking back to our friend Anon4’s astute observation that “charity starts at home”, there’s no reason for Ukrainians not to commemorate their own tragedy and continue any scholarship to bring more needed facts to life. One difference between the two concurrent tragedies is that within Ukraine the added element of the destruction of its intelligentsia was perpetrated unlike any similar numbers/proportions in Kazakhstan. The similarities and differences need to be further studied and exposed wherever they took place. There’s a saying in Ukrainian that obviously doesn’t seem to apply to you, Mr. Professor:

    Своя сорочка ближча чим чужа.

    It’s very hard for me to picture you ever proudly wearing a vishivanka!

    • Agree: Ano4
    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    @Mr. Hack


    within Ukraine the added element of the destruction of its intelligentsia was perpetrated unlike any similar numbers/proportions in Kazakhstan.
     
    This element was present (arguably in even more severe form) in Russia, where educated people existed. It did not happen in Kazakhstan for one reason: there were so few educated people there, that there was nothing to destroy.

    Своя сорочка ближча чим чужа.
     
    There is Russian saying with exactly the same meaning: “своя рубашка ближе к телу” (your own shirt is closer to you).

    It’s very hard for me to picture you ever proudly wearing a vishivanka!
     
    You are absolutely right there. It won’t happen for numerous reasons, mostly because I am not an idiot. First, embroidered shirts were part of folk outfits in so many nations that only a really stupid ignoramus would demonstrate it as a symbol of national pride. Second, wearing medieval outfits in the twenty first century outside of specialized folk festivals is hardly a sign of intellectual prowess. As one Russian blogger said, “tried to imagine Putin and Lavrov in kosovorotkas (nineteenth century Russian folk shirt) and couldn’t”.

    BTW, when the current clown (of playing the piano with his dick fame) visited Estonia, he and Estonian president Kaljulaid exchanged gifts. A joke spread through Russian internet: “Kaljulaid presented Zelensky a bicycle, but he avenged himself and presented her vishivanka”.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  286. @Mr. Hack
    @Ano4

    No doubt that by 1948 the Soviet system was using every tool within its arsenal to help indoctrinate the masses to its ideology and this would have included history textbooks. My point was that perhaps because the system was new in the 1920's they might not have yet created history textbooks for students in the elementary and high schools? Koronizatsiya after all lasted only through the 1920's and was a measure used of convenience to satisfy the needs of a blossoming, if not submerged new nationality.

    Replies: @Ano4

    In the 20ies the Soviet system was not stabilized yet. A lot of social disruption and cultural experimentation was taking place. Soviets were less dogmatic then, the only thing they considered paramount then was the annihilation of the remains of the previous Tsarist social system.

    Korenizatsia played an important role in weakening the “Greater Russian Chauvinism”. The attacks against the Orthodox Religion and the attempted “Obnovlenie” of the Church life also targeted the cultural code of the majority of the Russian population. The sexual revolution of the early NEP era weakened the family life. It was in fact similar to the Cultural Marxism of today: reinforce the minorities to weaken the majority and reform the weakened society towards a greater uniformity under a dictatorial command.

    Korenizatsia was the equivalent of the affirmative action of the current age. As soon as the Velikoross majority was weakened enough, the affirmation of the minority cultures was dialed down and Soviet cultural homogenization implemented.

    By that time the pre-revolutionary Russian elites were either executed, starved to death or expulsed into emigration. The local minority cultural personalities often applauded the debasement of their Velikoross competitors. Once the Velikoross have been dealt with, the turn of the minority intellectuals came and they felt the tough love of the Soviet regime in all its brutal strength.

    By then it was too late to cry…

    • Replies: @iffen
    @Ano4

    the turn of the minority intellectuals came and they felt the tough love of the Soviet regime in all its brutal strength.

    By then it was too late to cry…

    First they came for ...

  287. Korenizatsia played an important role in weakening the “Greater Russian Chauvinism”. The attacks against the Orthodox Religion and the attempted “Obnovlenie” of the Church life also targeted the cultural code of the majority of the Russian population. The sexual revolution of the early NEP era weakened the family life. It was in fact similar to the Cultural Marxism of today: reinforce the minorities to weaken the majority and reform the weakened society towards a greater uniformity under a dictatorial command.

    Koronizatsiya was primarily the Bolsheviks response to a very nascent expression of Ukrainian nationalism that they encountered in Ukraine. Similarly, in 1920 a new Ukrainian Orthodox church was formed in Ukraine, not necessarily as an attack on the Russian dominated church, but as an expression of the Ukrainian people’s will to have their own church, to reflect more of its own culture and usage of the native Ukrainian language. This church, unfortunately was short lived and experienced great persecution and was completely liquidated by the 1930’s, including its hierarchy and priests. This photo gives you a good idea that the Ukrainian national idea was alive in thriving in Kyiv in 1919 (not a small gathering of Banderites in Lviv, but everyday Ukrainians showing their support for a new Ukrainian state uniting both the East and the West).

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @Mr. Hack

    Korenizatsia was not only an Ukrainian affair, it was a general principle applied everywhere across the Soviet Union. Everywhere the Russian culture was tossed aside and minority cultures were strengthened. It was a pure and simple divide and rule strategy. Under the pretense of freeing the minorities from the dominant Velikoross culture, the Russian majority was weakened and debased towards a Soviet citizenship. For a time there was even discussion about censorship of Pushkin and other classical Russian writers, with the notable exception of Tolstoy who was seen favorably by the revolutionary regime. Those who considered themselves as being part of the Russian cultural elites were denied the possibility to earn an income, their children denied education, their apartments forcibly filled with paysant and proletarian roommates. They were starved as Rozanov, shot as Gumyliov, forcibly expelled into emigration as the passengers of the "philosophers' steamship". Everything Russian was considered petit bourgeois: fairytales, songs, classical music, paintings. Russia needed being completely destroyed and reformed so Soviet Union could be built on its ruins.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  288. @Mr. Hack
    @AnonFromTN

    It's a shame that for whatever reason, Kazakhstan and its diaspora has done very little to make known their very similar famine that also took place roughly during the same time period. I applaud any efforts to bring this immense tragedy to light and strongly feel that there's no need for Ukrainians to monopolize these events. Having said that, harking back to our friend Anon4's astute observation that "charity starts at home", there's no reason for Ukrainians not to commemorate their own tragedy and continue any scholarship to bring more needed facts to life. One difference between the two concurrent tragedies is that within Ukraine the added element of the destruction of its intelligentsia was perpetrated unlike any similar numbers/proportions in Kazakhstan. The similarities and differences need to be further studied and exposed wherever they took place. There's a saying in Ukrainian that obviously doesn't seem to apply to you, Mr. Professor:


    Своя сорочка ближча чим чужа.
     
    It's very hard for me to picture you ever proudly wearing a vishivanka!

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

    within Ukraine the added element of the destruction of its intelligentsia was perpetrated unlike any similar numbers/proportions in Kazakhstan.

    This element was present (arguably in even more severe form) in Russia, where educated people existed. It did not happen in Kazakhstan for one reason: there were so few educated people there, that there was nothing to destroy.

    Своя сорочка ближча чим чужа.

    There is Russian saying with exactly the same meaning: “своя рубашка ближе к телу” (your own shirt is closer to you).

    It’s very hard for me to picture you ever proudly wearing a vishivanka!

    You are absolutely right there. It won’t happen for numerous reasons, mostly because I am not an idiot. First, embroidered shirts were part of folk outfits in so many nations that only a really stupid ignoramus would demonstrate it as a symbol of national pride. Second, wearing medieval outfits in the twenty first century outside of specialized folk festivals is hardly a sign of intellectual prowess. As one Russian blogger said, “tried to imagine Putin and Lavrov in kosovorotkas (nineteenth century Russian folk shirt) and couldn’t”.

    BTW, when the current clown (of playing the piano with his dick fame) visited Estonia, he and Estonian president Kaljulaid exchanged gifts. A joke spread through Russian internet: “Kaljulaid presented Zelensky a bicycle, but he avenged himself and presented her vishivanka”.

    • LOL: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @AnonFromTN

    Only an idiotic Ukrainian would try to denigrate the beautiful Ukrainian embroidery emblazoned upon a shirt, and be ashamed to wear one in public. I realize that it must be difficult for you to separate yourself from you janissar upbringing. :-(

    Replies: @Ano4, @Mr. Hack

  289. @Mr. Hack

    Korenizatsia played an important role in weakening the “Greater Russian Chauvinism”. The attacks against the Orthodox Religion and the attempted “Obnovlenie” of the Church life also targeted the cultural code of the majority of the Russian population. The sexual revolution of the early NEP era weakened the family life. It was in fact similar to the Cultural Marxism of today: reinforce the minorities to weaken the majority and reform the weakened society towards a greater uniformity under a dictatorial command.
     
    Koronizatsiya was primarily the Bolsheviks response to a very nascent expression of Ukrainian nationalism that they encountered in Ukraine. Similarly, in 1920 a new Ukrainian Orthodox church was formed in Ukraine, not necessarily as an attack on the Russian dominated church, but as an expression of the Ukrainian people's will to have their own church, to reflect more of its own culture and usage of the native Ukrainian language. This church, unfortunately was short lived and experienced great persecution and was completely liquidated by the 1930's, including its hierarchy and priests. This photo gives you a good idea that the Ukrainian national idea was alive in thriving in Kyiv in 1919 (not a small gathering of Banderites in Lviv, but everyday Ukrainians showing their support for a new Ukrainian state uniting both the East and the West).

    https://batyar.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/%D0%B7%D1%83%D0%BD%D1%80.jpg

    Replies: @Ano4

    Korenizatsia was not only an Ukrainian affair, it was a general principle applied everywhere across the Soviet Union. Everywhere the Russian culture was tossed aside and minority cultures were strengthened. It was a pure and simple divide and rule strategy. Under the pretense of freeing the minorities from the dominant Velikoross culture, the Russian majority was weakened and debased towards a Soviet citizenship. For a time there was even discussion about censorship of Pushkin and other classical Russian writers, with the notable exception of Tolstoy who was seen favorably by the revolutionary regime. Those who considered themselves as being part of the Russian cultural elites were denied the possibility to earn an income, their children denied education, their apartments forcibly filled with paysant and proletarian roommates. They were starved as Rozanov, shot as Gumyliov, forcibly expelled into emigration as the passengers of the “philosophers’ steamship”. Everything Russian was considered petit bourgeois: fairytales, songs, classical music, paintings. Russia needed being completely destroyed and reformed so Soviet Union could be built on its ruins.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Ano4

    I don't see any Bolsheviks with bayonets aimed at the backs of the Kyivan citizenry forcing them to stand up for Ukrainian political and cultural rights in the photo above, #290, that could also be viewed as negative support towards Czarist Russian (VelikiRos) cultural domination?....

    Replies: @Ano4

  290. If we are to believe news reports (which we shouldn’t w/o independent checking), the replay of 1994 is going on in the Karabakh war. Azeri troops are retreating in the South towards Iranian border. I can imagine Iranians letting Azeris in, but I cannot picture them letting Syrian jihadists in. It would be more logical if they mow down with machine guns Syrian jihadists they are fighting in Syria.

  291. @Ano4
    @Mr. Hack

    Korenizatsia was not only an Ukrainian affair, it was a general principle applied everywhere across the Soviet Union. Everywhere the Russian culture was tossed aside and minority cultures were strengthened. It was a pure and simple divide and rule strategy. Under the pretense of freeing the minorities from the dominant Velikoross culture, the Russian majority was weakened and debased towards a Soviet citizenship. For a time there was even discussion about censorship of Pushkin and other classical Russian writers, with the notable exception of Tolstoy who was seen favorably by the revolutionary regime. Those who considered themselves as being part of the Russian cultural elites were denied the possibility to earn an income, their children denied education, their apartments forcibly filled with paysant and proletarian roommates. They were starved as Rozanov, shot as Gumyliov, forcibly expelled into emigration as the passengers of the "philosophers' steamship". Everything Russian was considered petit bourgeois: fairytales, songs, classical music, paintings. Russia needed being completely destroyed and reformed so Soviet Union could be built on its ruins.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    I don’t see any Bolsheviks with bayonets aimed at the backs of the Kyivan citizenry forcing them to stand up for Ukrainian political and cultural rights in the photo above, #290, that could also be viewed as negative support towards Czarist Russian (VelikiRos) cultural domination?….

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @Mr. Hack

    Of course. Same as we don't see today Bolsheviks with bayonets standing behind the backs of the BLM protesters who are actually the Cultural Marxist Vanguard marching against the West. The minorities cheer the downfall of the majority without knowing that their time will also come to fall and be trampled upon by the tyranny. It is divide and rule, it is simple and efficient.

    🙂

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  292. @Ano4
    @Daniel Chieh

    To be fair they have had very ancient civilizations there and the Armenian is one of them. But modern day and age is certainly not a display of great achievements in the Caucasus region. Although their talents benefited other cultures that have been able to attract them. I don't think the future has anything exceptionally bright in hold for the peoples of the Caucasus mountains. Of course their nationalists would disagree...

    Replies: @128, @Dmitry

    I never visited those countries, so I can only have the most superficial knowledge and thoughts about the region.

    But if we look at superficial things, perhaps were little less pessimistic indicators for those countries in recent years.

    They have suffered from mass emigration, but in recent years population seems to be at least relatively stable. Azerbaijan actually has bypassed Belarus in population, while even Armenia’s population is not quite collapsing.

    In terms of recent fertility forecast generalizations (“total fertility rate”).

    Georgia seemed quite stable almost around replacement rate of fertility forecast, which is usually considered ideal level for developed country (not that Georgia is developed) by demographers.

    Armenia and Azerbaijan are slightly below replacement in forecast, almost twins in terms of this indicator. If you assumed no emigration, Georgia is not far from the idealized level.

    (Chechen Republic’s fertility rate is much higher than neighbours in the region – its “total fertility rate” is usually somewhere above 2,5 – but this “contributing” to the Russian Federation).

    In economy – if we look at GDP per capita on PPP basis (which is a bit of a joke measure, but won’t be completely untrue). They have all had some significant growth since the lowest base of 2000. (Azerbaijan has oil, so it follows a different pattern).


    In terms of Georgia and Armenia.

    Before coronavirus and recent anti-Russian rhetoric, Georgia was having one of the world’s fastest growing tourism boom.
    Probably for Georgia, there is some potential for economic development, by being investment hub from Russia. Unlike Armenia, they have sea.

    There is massive real estate investment in Batumi. This is primarily Russian property investment (although they are also receiving a lot of investment from Turkey).

    But Armenia probably has less potential to copy Georgia’s tourism/investment model, due to lack of sea.

    • Thanks: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @Thulean Friend
    @Dmitry

    The only two avenues to "make it" as a poor country without a fossil fuel bonanza and middling human capital is either become a tax haven (as Panama is learning) or become a tourist hotspot. For the latter, you really need to have a small population, which Georgia has. However, while their location is decent, it isn't fantastic. There's a lot of arid surroundings. It's not like Vietnam, a stunning and gorgeous country. I'm quite pessimistic about the entire region.

    The only meaningful prospect for prosperity is having a high human capital base. It isn't enough - as North Korea ably demonstrates - but it is virtually impossible without it in the long run. The fossil fuel exceptions will stop being exceptions as EVs gradually take over. Incremental oil consumption increases is going to come to a standstill very soon and we'll have "peak oil" this decade. It will be driven by demand rather than supply.

    As that happens, countries like Russia will likely handle the transition better since they have decent human capital and have generally run a tight fiscal ship. I shudder to think of the chaos that awaits Saudi Arabia as their huge and expensive welfare state that was built on an oil price of $100 evaporates before their eyes. In the end, countries, like people, revert to the mean.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    , @Mr. Hack
    @Dmitry

    see comment #307 in reply to your comment.

  293. @AnonFromTN
    @Mr. Hack


    within Ukraine the added element of the destruction of its intelligentsia was perpetrated unlike any similar numbers/proportions in Kazakhstan.
     
    This element was present (arguably in even more severe form) in Russia, where educated people existed. It did not happen in Kazakhstan for one reason: there were so few educated people there, that there was nothing to destroy.

    Своя сорочка ближча чим чужа.
     
    There is Russian saying with exactly the same meaning: “своя рубашка ближе к телу” (your own shirt is closer to you).

    It’s very hard for me to picture you ever proudly wearing a vishivanka!
     
    You are absolutely right there. It won’t happen for numerous reasons, mostly because I am not an idiot. First, embroidered shirts were part of folk outfits in so many nations that only a really stupid ignoramus would demonstrate it as a symbol of national pride. Second, wearing medieval outfits in the twenty first century outside of specialized folk festivals is hardly a sign of intellectual prowess. As one Russian blogger said, “tried to imagine Putin and Lavrov in kosovorotkas (nineteenth century Russian folk shirt) and couldn’t”.

    BTW, when the current clown (of playing the piano with his dick fame) visited Estonia, he and Estonian president Kaljulaid exchanged gifts. A joke spread through Russian internet: “Kaljulaid presented Zelensky a bicycle, but he avenged himself and presented her vishivanka”.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    Only an idiotic Ukrainian would try to denigrate the beautiful Ukrainian embroidery emblazoned upon a shirt, and be ashamed to wear one in public. I realize that it must be difficult for you to separate yourself from you janissar upbringing. 🙁

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @Mr. Hack


    separate yourself from you janissar upbringing
     
    Follow the example of Comrade Khrushchev!

    https://cdn1.img.ukraina.ru/images/102331/06/1023310637.jpg

    And don't forget, to become a good Ukrainian, make important contributions to Ukrainian national pride. Like Comrade Khrushchev did when he gave Crimea to USSR...

    🙂

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    , @Mr. Hack
    @Mr. Hack

    WOW!

    I never imagined that so much development was going on within Batumi, the video highlighting so many beautiful and modern new buildings. I've always felt that Georgian wines were amongst the very best in the whole world, their cuisine is interesting, and I'm sure that the people are quite hospitable too. What's there not to like? Any good videos highlighting the beach life that you've come across would be interesting to see too.

    Replies: @Dmitry

  294. @Ano4
    @Mr. Hack

    In the 20ies the Soviet system was not stabilized yet. A lot of social disruption and cultural experimentation was taking place. Soviets were less dogmatic then, the only thing they considered paramount then was the annihilation of the remains of the previous Tsarist social system.

    Korenizatsia played an important role in weakening the "Greater Russian Chauvinism". The attacks against the Orthodox Religion and the attempted "Obnovlenie" of the Church life also targeted the cultural code of the majority of the Russian population. The sexual revolution of the early NEP era weakened the family life. It was in fact similar to the Cultural Marxism of today: reinforce the minorities to weaken the majority and reform the weakened society towards a greater uniformity under a dictatorial command.

    Korenizatsia was the equivalent of the affirmative action of the current age. As soon as the Velikoross majority was weakened enough, the affirmation of the minority cultures was dialed down and Soviet cultural homogenization implemented.

    By that time the pre-revolutionary Russian elites were either executed, starved to death or expulsed into emigration. The local minority cultural personalities often applauded the debasement of their Velikoross competitors. Once the Velikoross have been dealt with, the turn of the minority intellectuals came and they felt the tough love of the Soviet regime in all its brutal strength.

    By then it was too late to cry...

    Replies: @iffen

    the turn of the minority intellectuals came and they felt the tough love of the Soviet regime in all its brutal strength.

    By then it was too late to cry…

    First they came for …

    • Agree: Ano4
  295. @Ano4
    @Dmitry

    To be fair, the Caucasus populations have very ancient and complex cultures, but they have been stuck into a medieval mindset before the Russian Empire. USSR tried to infuse them with XXth century progressive ideology, but the effort was abandoned before it yielded any durable results. This is why we have conflicts such as the one in Nagornyi Karabakh. If Russia leaves Caucasus entirely, this type of conflict will become more prevalent and the whole area will become a war zone.

    Replies: @AP, @Dmitry, @Thulean Friend

    I assume (without reading anything) that the panturkic nationalism views promoted in Azerbaijan currently, are presumably extremely recent (and more response to recent power of Turkey in the last three decades)?

    In the Russian Empire, in the 19th century, Azeris were as high as General-Majors fighting against the Turks.
    https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9D%D0%B0%D1%85%D0%B8%D1%87%D0%B5%D0%B2%D0%B0%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9,_%D0%9A%D0%B5%D0%BB%D0%B1%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B8_%D0%A5%D0%B0%D0%BD_%D0%AD%D1%85%D1%81%D0%B0%D0%BD_%D0%A5%D0%B0%D0%BD_%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%BB%D1%8B#%D0%A0%D1%83%D1%81%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE-%D1%82%D1%83%D1%80%D0%B5%D1%86%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B9%D0%BD%D0%B0

    USSR tried to infuse them with XXth century progressive

    And not just “ideology” – they received modern buildings, sanitation, education, opera halls, clean water, sewage systems, medicine, warm water, electricity, roads… even metro lines. In particular, Baku received a lot of beautiful architecture.

    Baku and Erevan were even built metro lines. While Omsk, Chelyabinsk – still don’t have metro lines. They built Armenians’ a metro line even before starting the construction of the first line in Ekaterinburg (although to be fair, their one looks relatively low budget and unaesthetic in comparison).

  296. @Dmitry
    @Ano4

    I never visited those countries, so I can only have the most superficial knowledge and thoughts about the region.

    But if we look at superficial things, perhaps were little less pessimistic indicators for those countries in recent years.

    They have suffered from mass emigration, but in recent years population seems to be at least relatively stable. Azerbaijan actually has bypassed Belarus in population, while even Armenia's population is not quite collapsing.

    https://i.imgur.com/vgojyzM.jpg

    In terms of recent fertility forecast generalizations ("total fertility rate").

    Georgia seemed quite stable almost around replacement rate of fertility forecast, which is usually considered ideal level for developed country (not that Georgia is developed) by demographers.

    Armenia and Azerbaijan are slightly below replacement in forecast, almost twins in terms of this indicator. If you assumed no emigration, Georgia is not far from the idealized level.

    (Chechen Republic's fertility rate is much higher than neighbours in the region - its "total fertility rate" is usually somewhere above 2,5 - but this "contributing" to the Russian Federation).

    https://i.imgur.com/dSO9LWd.jpg


    In economy - if we look at GDP per capita on PPP basis (which is a bit of a joke measure, but won't be completely untrue). They have all had some significant growth since the lowest base of 2000. (Azerbaijan has oil, so it follows a different pattern).

    https://i.imgur.com/Z1k8lcJ.jpg


    -
    In terms of Georgia and Armenia.

    Before coronavirus and recent anti-Russian rhetoric, Georgia was having one of the world's fastest growing tourism boom.
    https://i.imgur.com/tkdN5Ui.png

    Probably for Georgia, there is some potential for economic development, by being investment hub from Russia. Unlike Armenia, they have sea.

    There is massive real estate investment in Batumi. This is primarily Russian property investment (although they are also receiving a lot of investment from Turkey).

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMxy3fj8QaI

    But Armenia probably has less potential to copy Georgia's tourism/investment model, due to lack of sea.

    Replies: @Thulean Friend, @Mr. Hack

    The only two avenues to “make it” as a poor country without a fossil fuel bonanza and middling human capital is either become a tax haven (as Panama is learning) or become a tourist hotspot. For the latter, you really need to have a small population, which Georgia has. However, while their location is decent, it isn’t fantastic. There’s a lot of arid surroundings. It’s not like Vietnam, a stunning and gorgeous country. I’m quite pessimistic about the entire region.

    The only meaningful prospect for prosperity is having a high human capital base. It isn’t enough – as North Korea ably demonstrates – but it is virtually impossible without it in the long run. The fossil fuel exceptions will stop being exceptions as EVs gradually take over. Incremental oil consumption increases is going to come to a standstill very soon and we’ll have “peak oil” this decade. It will be driven by demand rather than supply.

    As that happens, countries like Russia will likely handle the transition better since they have decent human capital and have generally run a tight fiscal ship. I shudder to think of the chaos that awaits Saudi Arabia as their huge and expensive welfare state that was built on an oil price of $100 evaporates before their eyes. In the end, countries, like people, revert to the mean.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Thulean Friend

    It will be interesting to see if Saudi Arabia could transition to a longer term of relatively lower oil prices.

    It's a country with almost feudal (and in that sense, almost romantically conservative) political and economic system.

    Obviously, rulers will not be able to suddenly reform the economy, or try to modernize their education, without risking political stability.

    -

    As for national character of Saudis. As an adult I studied with Saudis a few times. For all ones I've met, they were all charming people on an individual level, but distracting in their laziness in the class.

    I always admired lazy people as my fellow spirits, as all my school years were based about distracting the teacher and avoiding homework. I think there were few youth who had been more successfully lazy, than I was.

    But when you're an adult, and you need to succeed in a language exam as precondition for visas and jobs - the perspective of having such classmates, becomes a little different.

  297. @Ano4
    @Dmitry

    To be fair, the Caucasus populations have very ancient and complex cultures, but they have been stuck into a medieval mindset before the Russian Empire. USSR tried to infuse them with XXth century progressive ideology, but the effort was abandoned before it yielded any durable results. This is why we have conflicts such as the one in Nagornyi Karabakh. If Russia leaves Caucasus entirely, this type of conflict will become more prevalent and the whole area will become a war zone.

    Replies: @AP, @Dmitry, @Thulean Friend

    The Caucasus populations have very ancient and complex cultures, but they have been stuck into a medieval mindset before the Russian Empire. USSR tried to infuse them with XXth century progressive ideology, but the effort was abandoned before it yielded any durable results

    Armenia is more progressive on abortion than Russia or Ukraine are.

    P.S. Interesting how comparably liberal the Balkanoids are. Any sociological reason for this?

    P.P.S. is it a Slavic thing to use roman ‘numbers’ to denote dates? I don’t see it among anyone else anymore. It’s hilarious and a bit backward at the same time.

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @Thulean Friend


    P.P.S. is it a Slavic thing to use roman ‘numbers’ to denote dates? I don’t see it among anyone else anymore. It’s hilarious and a bit backward at the same time
     
    I'm doing it cause that's the way I learned when in a Soviet school. The centuries were denoted in roman numerals in the history class. Not sure whether other people of Slavic descent would do it the same way.

    I find it kind of hilarious and a little bit backward that such simple things cheer you up.

    And you clearly have the eye for the details (must be a Scandinavian thing...)

    😁
    , @Europe Europa
    @Thulean Friend

    Apparently Russia has by far the highest abortion rate in Europe, so it would seem that their anti-abortion virtue signalling does not count for much in reality.

    I find it bizarre how according to those stats a much lower percentage of people support abortion in Russia compared to say Sweden, and yet the abortion rate in Russia is many times higher than Sweden per capita.

    That would suggest to me that a lot of Russians are bullshiters, and that their words and actions are two very different things. It seems if directly asked an opinion on an issue, most Russians will state the mandated "socially acceptable" opinion, but it doesn't mean they'll live by it.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @Blinky Bill, @Gerard-Mandela

  298. @Mr. Hack
    @Ano4

    I don't see any Bolsheviks with bayonets aimed at the backs of the Kyivan citizenry forcing them to stand up for Ukrainian political and cultural rights in the photo above, #290, that could also be viewed as negative support towards Czarist Russian (VelikiRos) cultural domination?....

    Replies: @Ano4

    Of course. Same as we don’t see today Bolsheviks with bayonets standing behind the backs of the BLM protesters who are actually the Cultural Marxist Vanguard marching against the West. The minorities cheer the downfall of the majority without knowing that their time will also come to fall and be trampled upon by the tyranny. It is divide and rule, it is simple and efficient.

    🙂

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Ano4


    Of course. Same as we don’t see today Bolsheviks with bayonets standing behind the backs of the BLM protesters who are actually the Cultural Marxist Vanguard marching against the West.
     
    With a little bit of study though we can determine that a lot of the support for this movement, BLM, is backed by Marxists and commies. Not so, with the Ukrainian movement in the early 1920's in Ukraine. The Bolsheviks were primarily an import from the Russian north into Ukraine, and yes, I'm aware that a lot of the Bolshevik vanguard were not ethnic Russians, but this doesn't negate the fact that it first came from the north through Russia into Ukraine.

    The minorities cheer the downfall of the majority without knowing that their time will also come to fall and be trampled upon by the tyranny. It is divide and rule, it is simple and efficient.
     
    Another poor analogy, as the Ukrainian national movement did not represent a "minority" viewpoint, but rather that of the majority. As AP has shown so many times here before, by the 1920's Ukrainian political parties were the most ascendant, whereas those with a common Russian denominator were clearly on the wane. And this had nothing at all to do with any Bolshevik influence.

    Replies: @Ano4

  299. @Thulean Friend
    @Ano4


    The Caucasus populations have very ancient and complex cultures, but they have been stuck into a medieval mindset before the Russian Empire. USSR tried to infuse them with XXth century progressive ideology, but the effort was abandoned before it yielded any durable results
     
    Armenia is more progressive on abortion than Russia or Ukraine are.

    https://i.redd.it/qlp8n4vg3or51.png

    P.S. Interesting how comparably liberal the Balkanoids are. Any sociological reason for this?

    P.P.S. is it a Slavic thing to use roman 'numbers' to denote dates? I don't see it among anyone else anymore. It's hilarious and a bit backward at the same time.

    Replies: @Ano4, @Europe Europa

    P.P.S. is it a Slavic thing to use roman ‘numbers’ to denote dates? I don’t see it among anyone else anymore. It’s hilarious and a bit backward at the same time

    I’m doing it cause that’s the way I learned when in a Soviet school. The centuries were denoted in roman numerals in the history class. Not sure whether other people of Slavic descent would do it the same way.

    I find it kind of hilarious and a little bit backward that such simple things cheer you up.

    And you clearly have the eye for the details (must be a Scandinavian thing…)

    😁

  300. @Mr. Hack
    @AnonFromTN

    Only an idiotic Ukrainian would try to denigrate the beautiful Ukrainian embroidery emblazoned upon a shirt, and be ashamed to wear one in public. I realize that it must be difficult for you to separate yourself from you janissar upbringing. :-(

    Replies: @Ano4, @Mr. Hack

    separate yourself from you janissar upbringing

    Follow the example of Comrade Khrushchev!

    And don’t forget, to become a good Ukrainian, make important contributions to Ukrainian national pride. Like Comrade Khrushchev did when he gave Crimea to USSR…

    🙂

    • Thanks: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Ano4

    He actually looks better in this photo than I've ever seen him before. Also, he held some high positions within the Ukrainian government. I'm guessing that he was trying hard to score some points with his second wife that was Ukrainian, here in this photo. It also goes to show you that even Khrushchev had more sense than our resident "Ukrainian" professor! :-)

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

  301. @Ano4
    @Mr. Hack

    Of course. Same as we don't see today Bolsheviks with bayonets standing behind the backs of the BLM protesters who are actually the Cultural Marxist Vanguard marching against the West. The minorities cheer the downfall of the majority without knowing that their time will also come to fall and be trampled upon by the tyranny. It is divide and rule, it is simple and efficient.

    🙂

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    Of course. Same as we don’t see today Bolsheviks with bayonets standing behind the backs of the BLM protesters who are actually the Cultural Marxist Vanguard marching against the West.

    With a little bit of study though we can determine that a lot of the support for this movement, BLM, is backed by Marxists and commies. Not so, with the Ukrainian movement in the early 1920’s in Ukraine. The Bolsheviks were primarily an import from the Russian north into Ukraine, and yes, I’m aware that a lot of the Bolshevik vanguard were not ethnic Russians, but this doesn’t negate the fact that it first came from the north through Russia into Ukraine.

    The minorities cheer the downfall of the majority without knowing that their time will also come to fall and be trampled upon by the tyranny. It is divide and rule, it is simple and efficient.

    Another poor analogy, as the Ukrainian national movement did not represent a “minority” viewpoint, but rather that of the majority. As AP has shown so many times here before, by the 1920’s Ukrainian political parties were the most ascendant, whereas those with a common Russian denominator were clearly on the wane. And this had nothing at all to do with any Bolshevik influence.

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @Mr. Hack


    backed by Marxists and commies. Not so, with the Ukrainian movement in the early 1920’s in Ukraine.

     

    Mr Hack, you realize that the Menshevik and the SR were also Marxist? Ukrainian nationalists were also socialists, therefore they were Marxist. Even Makhno's Ukrainian anarchists were in fact Anarkho-Communists.

    Anyone who was not Marxist was lined against the wall at the time. Seeing them parading in Kiev is a clear indication of them being tolerated by the Bolsheviks, and therefore of them being Marxist. Moreover, there were Ukrainian Bolsheviks in the tens of thousands. Zheleznyak, Artyom, their name was legion!

    Another poor analogy, as the Ukrainian national movement did not represent a “minority” viewpoint, but rather that of the majority.
     
    The Ukrainians were a minority in the Russian Empire. They were a majority in many (but not all) rural regions of Malorossia.

    by the 1920’s Ukrainian political parties were the most ascendant, whereas those with a common Russian denominator were clearly on the wane. And this had nothing at all to do with any Bolshevik influence.

     

    Mr Hack, by the 20ies the only legal party in UkSSR was the Communist party of Ukraine, that is Ukrainian Bolsheviks. Of note, there has never been in Soviet Russia a Velikoross/Russian Communist party separate from the Communist party of USSR although there were specific Communist parties in other Soviet republics representing the "titular nations" of these territorial units of the USSR. Moreover, while UkSSR was officially the home of Ukrainian nation, the RFSSR was not officially the home of the Russian nation. The Bolshevik have always behaved with the Russian people as if Russians were inferior in importance to any other people of the USSR.

    P.S. Did you read Как закалялась сталь and Рождённые бурей by Ostrowski Mr Hack? If not you miss something. I also suggest reading the Makarenko books. It is a great testimony of the times. Written by Ukrainians...

    🙂
  302. @Ano4
    @Mr. Hack


    separate yourself from you janissar upbringing
     
    Follow the example of Comrade Khrushchev!

    https://cdn1.img.ukraina.ru/images/102331/06/1023310637.jpg

    And don't forget, to become a good Ukrainian, make important contributions to Ukrainian national pride. Like Comrade Khrushchev did when he gave Crimea to USSR...

    🙂

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    He actually looks better in this photo than I’ve ever seen him before. Also, he held some high positions within the Ukrainian government. I’m guessing that he was trying hard to score some points with his second wife that was Ukrainian, here in this photo. It also goes to show you that even Khrushchev had more sense than our resident “Ukrainian” professor! 🙂

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    @Mr. Hack


    It also goes to show you that even Khrushchev had more sense than our resident “Ukrainian” professor!
     
    In Stalin’s court Khrushchev always played the role of a clown. That’s why he managed to trick his competitors into giving him the top job. They thought it’s a temporary compromise, stupid half-people (using Mandelshtam’s word).

    Here is the best joke from Khrushchev’s period:
    Correction: in yesterday’s issue of our newspaper there was a typo in the caption to the photograph of Khrushchev with the most productive pigs. Khrushchev is the third from the right, not the second from the right, as we printed.
  303. @iffen
    @LG

    On topic comments on the war are likely lost for this post. As frequently happens with
    AK's comment section, it has devolved into a Slavic slugfest over who were kangz then are who are kangz now.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Yevardian

    Well, it’s the usual suspects who make every single thread about Ukraine. I have never met a prouder nationality with less in their history to be proud about than these people, with the possible exception of Albanians.

    • Agree: AnonFromTN
    • LOL: iffen
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Yevardian

    I do apologize for my part in this. It all started, however, with Altan Bakshi's cheapshot meme in comment #130 that just couldn't be overlooked. But then again, this thread has veered off in several different directions and Georgia seems to be up next for discussion. I hope that's Okay (in many ways though the Caucuses region is in the same neighborhood as U_____e). :-)

    , @AP
    @Yevardian


    Well, it’s the usual suspects who make every single thread about Ukraine
     
    Yes, Russians. First person to mention Ukraine here was the Russian Altanbakshi. He provoked a response from Mr. Hack and then more Russians joined in (Anon4 and AnoninTN). What can one do, Ukraine is on Russians’ minds.

    Replies: @Yevardian, @Ano4, @AltanBakshi

  304. @Mr. Hack
    @AnonFromTN

    Only an idiotic Ukrainian would try to denigrate the beautiful Ukrainian embroidery emblazoned upon a shirt, and be ashamed to wear one in public. I realize that it must be difficult for you to separate yourself from you janissar upbringing. :-(

    Replies: @Ano4, @Mr. Hack

    WOW!

    I never imagined that so much development was going on within Batumi, the video highlighting so many beautiful and modern new buildings. I’ve always felt that Georgian wines were amongst the very best in the whole world, their cuisine is interesting, and I’m sure that the people are quite hospitable too. What’s there not to like? Any good videos highlighting the beach life that you’ve come across would be interesting to see too.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Mr. Hack

    Well I've never been in Georgia.

    I have a friend who was on vacation in Georgia, and said they loved to visit, because of its lazy people and crazy, third-world, Dada atmosphere - where you can never predict what will be next. They recommend to go there because it was like some kind of mini-Africa or mini-India in terms of its spirit.

    -

    My impression from videos like below. They developed Tbilisi into a nice city for hipster tourists. I.e. 14:00 in video - road designed for hipster tourism.

    However, at 13:00 you can see they have a nationalist march, so you can see already an unstable situation for Russian tourism, if the proportion of nationalists is so high in Georgia (in the sense you might be wondering if Georgian nationalist waiter could spit in your food).

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5q45uy5Zfx0

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Mr. Hack

  305. @Yevardian
    @iffen

    Well, it's the usual suspects who make every single thread about Ukraine. I have never met a prouder nationality with less in their history to be proud about than these people, with the possible exception of Albanians.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @AP

    I do apologize for my part in this. It all started, however, with Altan Bakshi’s cheapshot meme in comment #130 that just couldn’t be overlooked. But then again, this thread has veered off in several different directions and Georgia seems to be up next for discussion. I hope that’s Okay (in many ways though the Caucuses region is in the same neighborhood as U_____e). 🙂

  306. @Mr. Hack
    @Ano4


    Of course. Same as we don’t see today Bolsheviks with bayonets standing behind the backs of the BLM protesters who are actually the Cultural Marxist Vanguard marching against the West.
     
    With a little bit of study though we can determine that a lot of the support for this movement, BLM, is backed by Marxists and commies. Not so, with the Ukrainian movement in the early 1920's in Ukraine. The Bolsheviks were primarily an import from the Russian north into Ukraine, and yes, I'm aware that a lot of the Bolshevik vanguard were not ethnic Russians, but this doesn't negate the fact that it first came from the north through Russia into Ukraine.

    The minorities cheer the downfall of the majority without knowing that their time will also come to fall and be trampled upon by the tyranny. It is divide and rule, it is simple and efficient.
     
    Another poor analogy, as the Ukrainian national movement did not represent a "minority" viewpoint, but rather that of the majority. As AP has shown so many times here before, by the 1920's Ukrainian political parties were the most ascendant, whereas those with a common Russian denominator were clearly on the wane. And this had nothing at all to do with any Bolshevik influence.

    Replies: @Ano4

    backed by Marxists and commies. Not so, with the Ukrainian movement in the early 1920’s in Ukraine.

    Mr Hack, you realize that the Menshevik and the SR were also Marxist? Ukrainian nationalists were also socialists, therefore they were Marxist. Even Makhno’s Ukrainian anarchists were in fact Anarkho-Communists.

    Anyone who was not Marxist was lined against the wall at the time. Seeing them parading in Kiev is a clear indication of them being tolerated by the Bolsheviks, and therefore of them being Marxist. Moreover, there were Ukrainian Bolsheviks in the tens of thousands. Zheleznyak, Artyom, their name was legion!

    Another poor analogy, as the Ukrainian national movement did not represent a “minority” viewpoint, but rather that of the majority.

    The Ukrainians were a minority in the Russian Empire. They were a majority in many (but not all) rural regions of Malorossia.

    by the 1920’s Ukrainian political parties were the most ascendant, whereas those with a common Russian denominator were clearly on the wane. And this had nothing at all to do with any Bolshevik influence.

    Mr Hack, by the 20ies the only legal party in UkSSR was the Communist party of Ukraine, that is Ukrainian Bolsheviks. Of note, there has never been in Soviet Russia a Velikoross/Russian Communist party separate from the Communist party of USSR although there were specific Communist parties in other Soviet republics representing the “titular nations” of these territorial units of the USSR. Moreover, while UkSSR was officially the home of Ukrainian nation, the RFSSR was not officially the home of the Russian nation. The Bolshevik have always behaved with the Russian people as if Russians were inferior in importance to any other people of the USSR.

    P.S. Did you read Как закалялась сталь and Рождённые бурей by Ostrowski Mr Hack? If not you miss something. I also suggest reading the Makarenko books. It is a great testimony of the times. Written by Ukrainians…

    🙂

  307. @Mr. Hack
    @Ano4

    He actually looks better in this photo than I've ever seen him before. Also, he held some high positions within the Ukrainian government. I'm guessing that he was trying hard to score some points with his second wife that was Ukrainian, here in this photo. It also goes to show you that even Khrushchev had more sense than our resident "Ukrainian" professor! :-)

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

    It also goes to show you that even Khrushchev had more sense than our resident “Ukrainian” professor!

    In Stalin’s court Khrushchev always played the role of a clown. That’s why he managed to trick his competitors into giving him the top job. They thought it’s a temporary compromise, stupid half-people (using Mandelshtam’s word).

    Here is the best joke from Khrushchev’s period:
    Correction: in yesterday’s issue of our newspaper there was a typo in the caption to the photograph of Khrushchev with the most productive pigs. Khrushchev is the third from the right, not the second from the right, as we printed.

  308. @Dmitry
    @Ano4

    I never visited those countries, so I can only have the most superficial knowledge and thoughts about the region.

    But if we look at superficial things, perhaps were little less pessimistic indicators for those countries in recent years.

    They have suffered from mass emigration, but in recent years population seems to be at least relatively stable. Azerbaijan actually has bypassed Belarus in population, while even Armenia's population is not quite collapsing.

    https://i.imgur.com/vgojyzM.jpg

    In terms of recent fertility forecast generalizations ("total fertility rate").

    Georgia seemed quite stable almost around replacement rate of fertility forecast, which is usually considered ideal level for developed country (not that Georgia is developed) by demographers.

    Armenia and Azerbaijan are slightly below replacement in forecast, almost twins in terms of this indicator. If you assumed no emigration, Georgia is not far from the idealized level.

    (Chechen Republic's fertility rate is much higher than neighbours in the region - its "total fertility rate" is usually somewhere above 2,5 - but this "contributing" to the Russian Federation).

    https://i.imgur.com/dSO9LWd.jpg


    In economy - if we look at GDP per capita on PPP basis (which is a bit of a joke measure, but won't be completely untrue). They have all had some significant growth since the lowest base of 2000. (Azerbaijan has oil, so it follows a different pattern).

    https://i.imgur.com/Z1k8lcJ.jpg


    -
    In terms of Georgia and Armenia.

    Before coronavirus and recent anti-Russian rhetoric, Georgia was having one of the world's fastest growing tourism boom.
    https://i.imgur.com/tkdN5Ui.png

    Probably for Georgia, there is some potential for economic development, by being investment hub from Russia. Unlike Armenia, they have sea.

    There is massive real estate investment in Batumi. This is primarily Russian property investment (although they are also receiving a lot of investment from Turkey).

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMxy3fj8QaI

    But Armenia probably has less potential to copy Georgia's tourism/investment model, due to lack of sea.

    Replies: @Thulean Friend, @Mr. Hack

    see comment #307 in reply to your comment.

  309. @Yevardian
    @iffen

    Well, it's the usual suspects who make every single thread about Ukraine. I have never met a prouder nationality with less in their history to be proud about than these people, with the possible exception of Albanians.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @AP

    Well, it’s the usual suspects who make every single thread about Ukraine

    Yes, Russians. First person to mention Ukraine here was the Russian Altanbakshi. He provoked a response from Mr. Hack and then more Russians joined in (Anon4 and AnoninTN). What can one do, Ukraine is on Russians’ minds.

    • Replies: @Yevardian
    @AP

    Yes, I don't deny Russians join in on this too, no matter what the topic, the same damn arguments and again and again... ano4's 'toad and viper' comments would be a bit more justified if Slavs had their own act together. Eventually all that sticks out is Gerard's profanity-laden shitposts, honestly in AK's position I'd consider just banning Ukraine-discussion on threads unrelated to the topic, but I guess then he'd lose an average of 20 comments per post, LOL.

    Replies: @Ano4

    , @Ano4
    @AP

    Not sure that AltanBakshi would self identify as Russian, although I will leave it to his discretion.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    , @AltanBakshi
    @AP

    Eternal Mongol strikes once again! What can I do when dividing the Rus into fighting petty principalities just comes so naturally to me? By the way AP where is my Yasak?

  310. @AP
    @Yevardian


    Well, it’s the usual suspects who make every single thread about Ukraine
     
    Yes, Russians. First person to mention Ukraine here was the Russian Altanbakshi. He provoked a response from Mr. Hack and then more Russians joined in (Anon4 and AnoninTN). What can one do, Ukraine is on Russians’ minds.

    Replies: @Yevardian, @Ano4, @AltanBakshi

    Yes, I don’t deny Russians join in on this too, no matter what the topic, the same damn arguments and again and again… ano4’s ‘toad and viper’ comments would be a bit more justified if Slavs had their own act together. Eventually all that sticks out is Gerard’s profanity-laden shitposts, honestly in AK’s position I’d consider just banning Ukraine-discussion on threads unrelated to the topic, but I guess then he’d lose an average of 20 comments per post, LOL.

    • Replies: @Ano4
    @Yevardian


    ano4’s ‘toad and viper’ comments would be a bit more justified if Slavs had their own act together

     

    I agree and I apologize. I shouldn't have replied to Mr Hack's comment. You are right, we should ignore Ukraine related comments in all threads that are not directly related to Ukraine with the obvious exception of the Open Thread.
  311. @Yevardian
    @AP

    Yes, I don't deny Russians join in on this too, no matter what the topic, the same damn arguments and again and again... ano4's 'toad and viper' comments would be a bit more justified if Slavs had their own act together. Eventually all that sticks out is Gerard's profanity-laden shitposts, honestly in AK's position I'd consider just banning Ukraine-discussion on threads unrelated to the topic, but I guess then he'd lose an average of 20 comments per post, LOL.

    Replies: @Ano4

    ano4’s ‘toad and viper’ comments would be a bit more justified if Slavs had their own act together

    I agree and I apologize. I shouldn’t have replied to Mr Hack’s comment. You are right, we should ignore Ukraine related comments in all threads that are not directly related to Ukraine with the obvious exception of the Open Thread.

  312. @AP
    @Yevardian


    Well, it’s the usual suspects who make every single thread about Ukraine
     
    Yes, Russians. First person to mention Ukraine here was the Russian Altanbakshi. He provoked a response from Mr. Hack and then more Russians joined in (Anon4 and AnoninTN). What can one do, Ukraine is on Russians’ minds.

    Replies: @Yevardian, @Ano4, @AltanBakshi

    Not sure that AltanBakshi would self identify as Russian, although I will leave it to his discretion.

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @Ano4

    No I dont identify as a Russian, and I do have Slavic blood, but not much, still I have many, many relatives living in Russia and I have myself lived there and I do speak fluent Russian, but I make often grammatical errors when writing in Russian so Im maybe too self conscious about that. For I shudder from fear when I think how our Ukrainian friends here would murderously laugh at me, and I would feel like somekind of backwards hillbilly.... Still I see myself at least partly Rossiyane, if that makes sense. Also there have been many loyal servants and friends of Russia who themselves have not been Russian or Slavic, but German, Kalmyk, Tatar, Buryat, Georgians like the Bagrations, even some Poles etc... All before the Soviet nationality policy, which somehow just made different ethnicities less loyal.

    My future solution for traitorous Georgia:

    Mustafa Kemals Turkey had a diplomatic dispute about Adjaria in the 20s, for that region had belonged for a quite a long time to Ottomans and almost half of the population was Muslims there in the beginning of the 20th Century. In the end Soviets and Turkey agreed to leave the area as part of the Soviet Union, but Soviets had to give autonomy for Adjaria.

    In the near future(2040's, my earlier estimation was 2060's but thank you BLM and the rest) when USA will not and can not uphold the unipolar world order, its time for the anchluss!

    Thus historical unjustice would be redeemed by giving Adjaria to Turkey, which would sour Turkish-Georgian ties permanently, but sadly area around Poti is not mountainous, unlike Adjaria, so the border would be less secure in the case of war, but so what, its Turkey, not Deutches Reich! Then the the Armenian majority region of Samskhe-Javakhati should be given for Armenia, after all they would unite with their co-ethnics and once again Wilsonian self determination would be affirmed happily!

    Many people here dont know that when Russia annexed Georgia, it was not united country, but multiple countries, with centuries long history of independence. Historically people of Western Georgia were called Mingrelians and their country as Mingrelia. Mingrelian is not mutually intelligible with Georgian and suffers from the dominance of Georgian, just like the poor Ukrainian language did suffer in the bckwards and cruel Russian Empire, so for the justice and the wellbeing of the Mingrelian nation they should have their separate and autonomous unit under the benevolent Russian rule, after all we must do our best against the petty and chauvinist nationalism! Of course new Mingrelian autonomous republic should be governed by local Mingrelian speaking Mingrelians, who would of course be rewarded for their sacrifices for their nation! Mingrelian Lukashenko? Then the eastern part of Georgia could be left alone, but only after annexation of Gori region/Shida Kartli to South Ossetia, after all historically that area was ethnically mixed area with many Ossetians, but sadly the ethnic composition has gone too homogenic and the area suffers from the lack of investment compared to Batumi, Poti and Tiflis, so benevolent Russia could bring some diversity in the form of 200k Slavs and other Rossiyane, which would bring rich culture, cuisine and workforce for the ageing Central Georgian region. In that way there would be left a landlocked Eastern Georgia, the historical heartland of Kartli-Kakheti, which would be left enjoying self rule and celebrate thei nationalism as much as they like! But oh no, there still would be Azeri majority areas in the new republic of Kartli-Kakheti, they too need some self rule....

    Imperialism 3.1, excuse me what I did wrote? I mean self rule and justice, in the global fight against facism and nationalism!

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @AltanBakshi

  313. @Mr. Hack
    @Mr. Hack

    WOW!

    I never imagined that so much development was going on within Batumi, the video highlighting so many beautiful and modern new buildings. I've always felt that Georgian wines were amongst the very best in the whole world, their cuisine is interesting, and I'm sure that the people are quite hospitable too. What's there not to like? Any good videos highlighting the beach life that you've come across would be interesting to see too.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    Well I’ve never been in Georgia.

    I have a friend who was on vacation in Georgia, and said they loved to visit, because of its lazy people and crazy, third-world, Dada atmosphere – where you can never predict what will be next. They recommend to go there because it was like some kind of mini-Africa or mini-India in terms of its spirit.

    My impression from videos like below. They developed Tbilisi into a nice city for hipster tourists. I.e. 14:00 in video – road designed for hipster tourism.

    However, at 13:00 you can see they have a nationalist march, so you can see already an unstable situation for Russian tourism, if the proportion of nationalists is so high in Georgia (in the sense you might be wondering if Georgian nationalist waiter could spit in your food).

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Dmitry

    Looks a lot like many hustling and bustling large East European cities to me. There are probably some areas that house even more impressive historic buildings than shown here. Not as inclusive with new buildings as in Batumi that really impresses the eye (when will the "Novorossiya" in Crimea even begin to look like the "New Georgia" in Batumi?). It seems that there are a lot of Georgians in U_____e today, not just Saakashvili, that are looking for work opportunities. I don't understand why, as these video clips indicate that there's a lot going on in Georgia? Perhaps, U_____e is just a gateway further West?

    , @Mr. Hack
    @Dmitry

    Beach life in Batumi doesn't impress me as much as its modern skyline. The same rocky beaches seem to abound everywhere (well, almost) as in Crimea. I couldn't believe my eyes seeing the young Georgians running on top of the rocks on the beach (ouch!!)! The Georgian girls on the beaches certainly don't have anything on the Slavic beauties that one can easily spot sunbathing on Crimean beaches. Maybe that's why you can see so many Georgian men in U_____e today. :-)

    https://youtu.be/IROsOEKkp4U

    Replies: @Ano4, @Dmitry, @Thulean Friend

  314. @Thulean Friend
    @Dmitry

    The only two avenues to "make it" as a poor country without a fossil fuel bonanza and middling human capital is either become a tax haven (as Panama is learning) or become a tourist hotspot. For the latter, you really need to have a small population, which Georgia has. However, while their location is decent, it isn't fantastic. There's a lot of arid surroundings. It's not like Vietnam, a stunning and gorgeous country. I'm quite pessimistic about the entire region.

    The only meaningful prospect for prosperity is having a high human capital base. It isn't enough - as North Korea ably demonstrates - but it is virtually impossible without it in the long run. The fossil fuel exceptions will stop being exceptions as EVs gradually take over. Incremental oil consumption increases is going to come to a standstill very soon and we'll have "peak oil" this decade. It will be driven by demand rather than supply.

    As that happens, countries like Russia will likely handle the transition better since they have decent human capital and have generally run a tight fiscal ship. I shudder to think of the chaos that awaits Saudi Arabia as their huge and expensive welfare state that was built on an oil price of $100 evaporates before their eyes. In the end, countries, like people, revert to the mean.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    It will be interesting to see if Saudi Arabia could transition to a longer term of relatively lower oil prices.

    It’s a country with almost feudal (and in that sense, almost romantically conservative) political and economic system.

    Obviously, rulers will not be able to suddenly reform the economy, or try to modernize their education, without risking political stability.

    As for national character of Saudis. As an adult I studied with Saudis a few times. For all ones I’ve met, they were all charming people on an individual level, but distracting in their laziness in the class.

    I always admired lazy people as my fellow spirits, as all my school years were based about distracting the teacher and avoiding homework. I think there were few youth who had been more successfully lazy, than I was.

    But when you’re an adult, and you need to succeed in a language exam as precondition for visas and jobs – the perspective of having such classmates, becomes a little different.

  315. @AltanBakshi
    @Yevardian

    And whats wrong with the Turks? Muslim Greeks and Armenians love to larp as Turks. Theres nothing wrong in being of Tatar,Tuvan, Yakut or Kyrgyz.

    Replies: @Avery, @Gerard-Mandela

    Turks do alot more good for Russia than our “Orthodox Brother” Greek (state) homos or any other western state has ever done

    Russians practically own parts of Turkey, many millions of us go there and experience zero problems…I have gone there many times and had great holidays. As a counterexample, Russians own large parts of Montenegro but get nothing positive in return. Our citizens in Turkey are never in danger of getting arrested and deported to the US, always very safe and enjoyable…and as a civil engineer I have extra respect for Turkey because of the many excellent construction companies they have doing very high quality structural and geotechnical projects in Turkey, in Russia, everywhere.

    I am from Kazan, and Turkey do lots of projects and investment there in culture, religion and infrastructure, and in all this time..nothing subversive about it at all, which is of course totally different to many ( not all) US -funded projects. Sure, they are abit paranoid about Gulenism , even in Kazan – but Gulenists do exist here.

    We have disagreement over Syria but they still work far more positively with us in this serious war position than Pindossi/Gayropans do in peacetime or on small business issue. It was a disgrace when they shot down our Su-25 and killed our pilot- but we still do not know exactly which state engineered that situation and was responsible, and although it is unforgivable they make big efforts to repair the situation- in same situation Baltics/Polabd/Banderastan would just continue to act like freaks.

    Erdogans team also appear to be very sane, sensible people in their public interviews…..compare them to the freaks in Poland, Baltics, GosDep, elites in Bulgaria etc. That’s why I think much of their negative reputation is undeserved ( their Foreign Minister also speaks fluent Russian and gives the impression of being a good guy)

    • Thanks: Yevardian
    • Replies: @Gerard-Mandela
    @Gerard-Mandela

    Su-24

    , @AltanBakshi
    @Gerard-Mandela

    Turkey is the best Nato country ever!

  316. @Gerard-Mandela
    @AltanBakshi

    Turks do alot more good for Russia than our "Orthodox Brother" Greek (state) homos or any other western state has ever done

    Russians practically own parts of Turkey, many millions of us go there and experience zero problems...I have gone there many times and had great holidays. As a counterexample, Russians own large parts of Montenegro but get nothing positive in return. Our citizens in Turkey are never in danger of getting arrested and deported to the US, always very safe and enjoyable...and as a civil engineer I have extra respect for Turkey because of the many excellent construction companies they have doing very high quality structural and geotechnical projects in Turkey, in Russia, everywhere.

    I am from Kazan, and Turkey do lots of projects and investment there in culture, religion and infrastructure, and in all this time..nothing subversive about it at all, which is of course totally different to many ( not all) US -funded projects. Sure, they are abit paranoid about Gulenism , even in Kazan - but Gulenists do exist here.

    We have disagreement over Syria but they still work far more positively with us in this serious war position than Pindossi/Gayropans do in peacetime or on small business issue. It was a disgrace when they shot down our Su-25 and killed our pilot- but we still do not know exactly which state engineered that situation and was responsible, and although it is unforgivable they make big efforts to repair the situation- in same situation Baltics/Polabd/Banderastan would just continue to act like freaks.

    Erdogans team also appear to be very sane, sensible people in their public interviews.....compare them to the freaks in Poland, Baltics, GosDep, elites in Bulgaria etc. That's why I think much of their negative reputation is undeserved ( their Foreign Minister also speaks fluent Russian and gives the impression of being a good guy)

    Replies: @Gerard-Mandela, @AltanBakshi

    Su-24

  317. While Azerbaijan and Armenia, compete for some mountains as “can be expected from the brown people”.

    Among the nationalities of Scandinavia, Finland has fought another battle in competition with rival powers Sweden-Norway, for a more noble territory: moral heights.

    Girls Takeover: Teen becomes Finland’s PM for the day

    Finland may frequently top lists for gender equality,

    But Prime Minister Sanna Marin has taken the fight to end the gender gap one step further and let a 16-year-old girl fill her seat for the day.

    Aava Murto may not be making any new laws on Wednesday, but she is meeting politicians throughout the day to highlight women’s rights in technology…

    “However, the truth is that we have not yet achieved gender equality – not anywhere on earth. Although we have accomplished a great lot of good in this area, there is still much work that needs to be done. ”

    The teenager, who actively campaigns on climate and human rights issues, applied to take part in the scheme. She will round off the day by meeting the prime minister to discuss gender equality in technology on Wednesday evening.

    Speaking ahead of the event, Finland’s Prime Minister Marin stressed the importance of ensuring technologies are made “accessible to everyone”, adding: “They must not deepen the digital divide between countries or within societies.”

    Last year, Finland came third in the World Economic Forum’s Global Gender Gap Report. However, women remain under-represented in the technology sector.

    Ms Marin became the world’s youngest prime minister when she was sworn in last year at the age of 34.

    She is the Finland’s third female prime minister and leads a centre-left coalition with four other parties – all headed by women, three of whom are under 35.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-54450463

    • Agree: Thulean Friend
  318. @Ano4
    @AP

    Not sure that AltanBakshi would self identify as Russian, although I will leave it to his discretion.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    No I dont identify as a Russian, and I do have Slavic blood, but not much, still I have many, many relatives living in Russia and I have myself lived there and I do speak fluent Russian, but I make often grammatical errors when writing in Russian so Im maybe too self conscious about that. For I shudder from fear when I think how our Ukrainian friends here would murderously laugh at me, and I would feel like somekind of backwards hillbilly…. Still I see myself at least partly Rossiyane, if that makes sense. Also there have been many loyal servants and friends of Russia who themselves have not been Russian or Slavic, but German, Kalmyk, Tatar, Buryat, Georgians like the Bagrations, even some Poles etc… All before the Soviet nationality policy, which somehow just made different ethnicities less loyal.

    My future solution for traitorous Georgia:

    Mustafa Kemals Turkey had a diplomatic dispute about Adjaria in the 20s, for that region had belonged for a quite a long time to Ottomans and almost half of the population was Muslims there in the beginning of the 20th Century. In the end Soviets and Turkey agreed to leave the area as part of the Soviet Union, but Soviets had to give autonomy for Adjaria.

    In the near future(2040’s, my earlier estimation was 2060’s but thank you BLM and the rest) when USA will not and can not uphold the unipolar world order, its time for the anchluss!

    Thus historical unjustice would be redeemed by giving Adjaria to Turkey, which would sour Turkish-Georgian ties permanently, but sadly area around Poti is not mountainous, unlike Adjaria, so the border would be less secure in the case of war, but so what, its Turkey, not Deutches Reich! Then the the Armenian majority region of Samskhe-Javakhati should be given for Armenia, after all they would unite with their co-ethnics and once again Wilsonian self determination would be affirmed happily!

    Many people here dont know that when Russia annexed Georgia, it was not united country, but multiple countries, with centuries long history of independence. Historically people of Western Georgia were called Mingrelians and their country as Mingrelia. Mingrelian is not mutually intelligible with Georgian and suffers from the dominance of Georgian, just like the poor Ukrainian language did suffer in the bckwards and cruel Russian Empire, so for the justice and the wellbeing of the Mingrelian nation they should have their separate and autonomous unit under the benevolent Russian rule, after all we must do our best against the petty and chauvinist nationalism! Of course new Mingrelian autonomous republic should be governed by local Mingrelian speaking Mingrelians, who would of course be rewarded for their sacrifices for their nation! Mingrelian Lukashenko? Then the eastern part of Georgia could be left alone, but only after annexation of Gori region/Shida Kartli to South Ossetia, after all historically that area was ethnically mixed area with many Ossetians, but sadly the ethnic composition has gone too homogenic and the area suffers from the lack of investment compared to Batumi, Poti and Tiflis, so benevolent Russia could bring some diversity in the form of 200k Slavs and other Rossiyane, which would bring rich culture, cuisine and workforce for the ageing Central Georgian region. In that way there would be left a landlocked Eastern Georgia, the historical heartland of Kartli-Kakheti, which would be left enjoying self rule and celebrate thei nationalism as much as they like! But oh no, there still would be Azeri majority areas in the new republic of Kartli-Kakheti, they too need some self rule….

    Imperialism 3.1, excuse me what I did wrote? I mean self rule and justice, in the global fight against facism and nationalism!

    • LOL: iffen
    • Troll: Yevardian
    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @AltanBakshi

    Actually there were also quite many Finns and Swedes serving Russia, even in high positions.


    https://www.geni.com/projects/Suomalaiset-kenraalit-ja-amiraalit-Ven%25C3%25A4j%25C3%25A4n-sotavoimissa-1809-1917/47622

    During this era, according to The National Biography of Finland, some 500 Finns who rose to the ranks of General or Admiral in the Imperial Russian Army are listed
     

    Replies: @Ano4

    , @AltanBakshi
    @AltanBakshi

    After 20 years of autonomy and fight against Greater Georgian chauvinism all Mingrelians will understand that they dont have anything common with Georgia(Kakhetians), after all those easterners got their Christianity from the Arabs of Antioch when Mingrelians were always western oriented and often even part of the Roman and Byzantine empires,and got their Christianity straight from the Cpole. This relationship started in Antiquity when Mingrelia was known by the name of Colchis and had numerous Greek colonies, unlike eastern more despotic Georgia, which was long time under the oriental tyranny of Persians and the Arabs. Even in the middle ages this western orientation continued and there were many Genoese colonies on the Mingrelian coast. I know that AP and Mr.Hack cant stand this heinous evil of Mingrelian culture and language being under control of the Great Georgian chauvinism and they would feel joy when there would be a free Mingrelia. For the parallels between Russian chauvinism and suffering Ukrainian nation are clear! Naturally even after 20 years of separate and free existence of Mingrelia, there still would be some Greater Georgian trolls insulting proud Mingrelians by claiming utter falsehoods, like denying the existence of the Mingrelian nationhood or even then Mingrelian language. Shame on them!
    .... in a parallel reality where Russians are intelligent empire builders....

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  319. @Gerard-Mandela
    @AltanBakshi

    Turks do alot more good for Russia than our "Orthodox Brother" Greek (state) homos or any other western state has ever done

    Russians practically own parts of Turkey, many millions of us go there and experience zero problems...I have gone there many times and had great holidays. As a counterexample, Russians own large parts of Montenegro but get nothing positive in return. Our citizens in Turkey are never in danger of getting arrested and deported to the US, always very safe and enjoyable...and as a civil engineer I have extra respect for Turkey because of the many excellent construction companies they have doing very high quality structural and geotechnical projects in Turkey, in Russia, everywhere.

    I am from Kazan, and Turkey do lots of projects and investment there in culture, religion and infrastructure, and in all this time..nothing subversive about it at all, which is of course totally different to many ( not all) US -funded projects. Sure, they are abit paranoid about Gulenism , even in Kazan - but Gulenists do exist here.

    We have disagreement over Syria but they still work far more positively with us in this serious war position than Pindossi/Gayropans do in peacetime or on small business issue. It was a disgrace when they shot down our Su-25 and killed our pilot- but we still do not know exactly which state engineered that situation and was responsible, and although it is unforgivable they make big efforts to repair the situation- in same situation Baltics/Polabd/Banderastan would just continue to act like freaks.

    Erdogans team also appear to be very sane, sensible people in their public interviews.....compare them to the freaks in Poland, Baltics, GosDep, elites in Bulgaria etc. That's why I think much of their negative reputation is undeserved ( their Foreign Minister also speaks fluent Russian and gives the impression of being a good guy)

    Replies: @Gerard-Mandela, @AltanBakshi

    Turkey is the best Nato country ever!

    • Agree: Blinky Bill
  320. @AP
    @Yevardian


    Well, it’s the usual suspects who make every single thread about Ukraine
     
    Yes, Russians. First person to mention Ukraine here was the Russian Altanbakshi. He provoked a response from Mr. Hack and then more Russians joined in (Anon4 and AnoninTN). What can one do, Ukraine is on Russians’ minds.

    Replies: @Yevardian, @Ano4, @AltanBakshi

    Eternal Mongol strikes once again! What can I do when dividing the Rus into fighting petty principalities just comes so naturally to me? By the way AP where is my Yasak?

    • LOL: Ano4
  321. @AltanBakshi
    @Ano4

    No I dont identify as a Russian, and I do have Slavic blood, but not much, still I have many, many relatives living in Russia and I have myself lived there and I do speak fluent Russian, but I make often grammatical errors when writing in Russian so Im maybe too self conscious about that. For I shudder from fear when I think how our Ukrainian friends here would murderously laugh at me, and I would feel like somekind of backwards hillbilly.... Still I see myself at least partly Rossiyane, if that makes sense. Also there have been many loyal servants and friends of Russia who themselves have not been Russian or Slavic, but German, Kalmyk, Tatar, Buryat, Georgians like the Bagrations, even some Poles etc... All before the Soviet nationality policy, which somehow just made different ethnicities less loyal.

    My future solution for traitorous Georgia:

    Mustafa Kemals Turkey had a diplomatic dispute about Adjaria in the 20s, for that region had belonged for a quite a long time to Ottomans and almost half of the population was Muslims there in the beginning of the 20th Century. In the end Soviets and Turkey agreed to leave the area as part of the Soviet Union, but Soviets had to give autonomy for Adjaria.

    In the near future(2040's, my earlier estimation was 2060's but thank you BLM and the rest) when USA will not and can not uphold the unipolar world order, its time for the anchluss!

    Thus historical unjustice would be redeemed by giving Adjaria to Turkey, which would sour Turkish-Georgian ties permanently, but sadly area around Poti is not mountainous, unlike Adjaria, so the border would be less secure in the case of war, but so what, its Turkey, not Deutches Reich! Then the the Armenian majority region of Samskhe-Javakhati should be given for Armenia, after all they would unite with their co-ethnics and once again Wilsonian self determination would be affirmed happily!

    Many people here dont know that when Russia annexed Georgia, it was not united country, but multiple countries, with centuries long history of independence. Historically people of Western Georgia were called Mingrelians and their country as Mingrelia. Mingrelian is not mutually intelligible with Georgian and suffers from the dominance of Georgian, just like the poor Ukrainian language did suffer in the bckwards and cruel Russian Empire, so for the justice and the wellbeing of the Mingrelian nation they should have their separate and autonomous unit under the benevolent Russian rule, after all we must do our best against the petty and chauvinist nationalism! Of course new Mingrelian autonomous republic should be governed by local Mingrelian speaking Mingrelians, who would of course be rewarded for their sacrifices for their nation! Mingrelian Lukashenko? Then the eastern part of Georgia could be left alone, but only after annexation of Gori region/Shida Kartli to South Ossetia, after all historically that area was ethnically mixed area with many Ossetians, but sadly the ethnic composition has gone too homogenic and the area suffers from the lack of investment compared to Batumi, Poti and Tiflis, so benevolent Russia could bring some diversity in the form of 200k Slavs and other Rossiyane, which would bring rich culture, cuisine and workforce for the ageing Central Georgian region. In that way there would be left a landlocked Eastern Georgia, the historical heartland of Kartli-Kakheti, which would be left enjoying self rule and celebrate thei nationalism as much as they like! But oh no, there still would be Azeri majority areas in the new republic of Kartli-Kakheti, they too need some self rule....

    I