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According to my CMP index, China should currently outclass India by a factor of more than three (figures for after 2015 are based on projections but this index don’t change cardinally over the course of a few years). That’s almost comparable to the fivefold differential between Pakistan and India.

Both countries are effectively islands relative to each other, so scope for a traditional land war is limited. In the Himalayas, it will come down to a question of troop quality and airlift capacity. China should have the edge in the former – even back in 1962, it won its engagement in Ladakh against India, while incurring twice fewer casualties. Its superiority in airlift capacity might be undercut by India’s easier logistics.

I am not sure of the logic behind the Chinese belligerence.

I suppose performing some calibrated tests on the PLA’s combat effectiveness on a weaker military might be a good idea for estimating its expected performance over, say, Taiwan. The conflict with India can be dialed up and down, whereas for obvious reasons, any invasion of Taiwan will be an On/Off affair. This is an increasingly pressing issue, given the accelerating Great Bifurcation and the louder and louder voices clamoring for independence in Taiwan.

Obviously, it will sour India’s relations with China and move it even closer to the Americans. On the other hand, the Strait of Malacca is getting cut off either which way come the Next Great War, so a (more) hostile India would not be too relevant.

It does put Russia into an uncomfortable position, which has excellent relations with both China and India (in 1971, the Soviet Navy helped deter the Americans from intervening against India in support of Pakistan – and, indirectly, ensured Bangladeshi independence). I suppose China wagers that Russia doesn’t view India as the more indispensable partner, and they are surely correct to do so. Certainly Russia is not going to embargo/sanction China on account of India.

 
• Category: Foreign Policy • Tags: China, India, Military 
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  1. Please keep off topic posts to the current Open Thread.

    If you are new to my work, start here.

  2. What is the Great Bifurcation?

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    @Abelard Lindsey

    The end of Chimerica/one world globalization, I have been speculating about it since late 2018.

  3. I have a 2-to-1 on a decisive Chinese victory on the next skirmish. Any takers?

    • Replies: @Not Raul
    @Max Payne

    I agree with those odds.

    India’s performance against Pakistan last year was embarrassing.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-47397418

    , @JohnPlywood
    @Max Payne

    They didn't win the first, why would they win the second?

    Face it, China is a cucked society.

    , @Antonius
    @Max Payne

    I prefer slopes to street shitters, but not by much. The downside would be a tsunami of street shitters heading west as refugees. I have adopted a truly vulgarian animus given the supine leadership infesting the western world. In South Africa Rhamaphosa is gleefully welcoming the latest distraction not unlike a guilty schoolboy welcomes a sick helping evade responsibility.

  4. @Abelard Lindsey
    What is the Great Bifurcation?

    Replies: @Anatoly Karlin

    The end of Chimerica/one world globalization, I have been speculating about it since late 2018.

  5. songbird says:

    in 1971, the Soviet Navy helped deter the Americans from intervening against India in support of Pakistan

    I don’t think America really cared about the sub-continent back then. Certainly not enough to get militarily involved in a Hindu-Muslim ethno-religious war, while simultaneously fighting a war in Vietnam. A little saber-rattling with the fleet is a different matter.

    Nuclear weapons make a lot of discussion of future conflict mute. Any future conflict between China and India is likely to be fought on K Street, as they wrangle over who controls the diminishing US.

    • Agree: Mr. XYZ
    • Replies: @Ian Smith
    @songbird

    Yahya Khan, the leader of Pakistan at the time, was helping the Nixon administration with its rapprochement with China, so between that and Nixon’s deep loathing of India Gandhi, we weren’t too interested in helping Bangladesh.

    https://foreignpolicy.com/2013/12/17/the-blood-telegram/

    , @nebulafox
    @songbird

    It was more ethno than religious. The essential issue was that the two Pakistans had Islam in common, and nothing else: not even a common alphabet.

    As was often the case in the Cold War, local regional powers often acted independently of their superpower patrons for their own interests. This isn't to say that superpower behavior was irrelevant, but tangential compared to the interests of the directly involved parties. In the specific case of the 1971 war, the US tilt toward Pakistan was largely about tilting toward China, one of the few reliable go-betweens that could serve Beijing and Washington simultaneously at the time. To this day, China and Pakistan enjoy a very tight relationship, but back then, it was one of the few outside connections that China had to the world that the US also had a friendly relationship with.

    If you'd like to know a little more about the American role specifically, here's an interesting link.

    http://nixontapes.org/india-pakistan.html

    Replies: @songbird

    , @JohnPlywood
    @songbird


    as they wrangle over who controls the diminishing US.
     
    Have you been injecting methanol directly in to your brain or something?
  6. @Max Payne
    I have a 2-to-1 on a decisive Chinese victory on the next skirmish. Any takers?

    Replies: @Not Raul, @JohnPlywood, @Antonius

    I agree with those odds.

    India’s performance against Pakistan last year was embarrassing.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-47397418

  7. All Indians seem to do is cold call British people all day long trying to scam them out of money, especially out of elderly and vulnerable people. Sometimes I get 4 or 5 calls a day from Indian scum trying to scam me and I can’t be the only one.

    I hope China smashes India for that reason alone, they are absolute scum.

    • Agree: Owen C., Dreadilk
    • LOL: silviosilver, Charon
    • Replies: @EldnahYm
    @Europe Europa

    That's the spirit.

    , @Hypnotoad666
    @Europe Europa


    Sometimes I get 4 or 5 calls a day from Indian scum trying to scam me and I can’t be the only one.

     

    A valid casus belli, if ever there was one.

    Replies: @WV Guerrilla

    , @Grahamsno(G64)
    @Europe Europa

    Such witty profound remarks, a monstrous geopolitical problem involving a third of humanity is dismissed under 'call centres', enjoy your Europe while it lasts, you're overrun with North & Sub Saharan Africans but what does it matter - 'Call Centres' are the most pressing issue right?

  8. Kim Yo Jong, the cutest Stalinist dictator, is getting ready to kick ass in the DMZ:

    https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/north-korea-threatens-invade-border-area-after-blowing-de-facto-embassy

    Looks like Corona-chan has competition for the most dangerous female of 2020.

    More seriously, this is push is motivated by China to see how the US responds and to assess the gayed up state of the US Army.

    • Agree: Ano4
    • Replies: @Exile
    @The Wild Geese Howard

    Given the absolutely shambolic state of Trump at this point, I don't see any country other than Israel making any moves that might help him galvanize support for four more years of incoherence and constant turnover - and even some of Israel's factions have problems with him.

    It's in no one's interests to deal with a Chimerica that changes policies in unpredictable and arbitrary Trumpian fashion day-to-day rather than election-to-election.

    China & Russia both know how to play the long game and know that time is ultimately on their side. Israel controls both U.S. parties and all significant U.S. politicians so they aren't worried about any single politician being indispensable.

    China knows Tiawan will be theirs within a generation. The U.S will not fight China over this when America's bluff is finally called (nor should it, FWIW).

    India's a darling of the GOP but those bridges are just starting to be built and the Republican Party is still just weak kabuki opposition at this point.

  9. Mr. XYZ says:

    Anatoly, just how far deep into (as in, inside of) India do you think that China can realistically expand in a conventional war between these two countries? I am aware that the Himalayas are in the way but even if China could seize, say, Tawang, then this in itself could be a huge propaganda coup for China.

    • Replies: @DB Cooper
    @Mr. XYZ

    India has no business in that part of the territory, period. India should vacate the northeast in general and NEFA in particular. Many insurgency groups are operating in the northeast vying for independence from India. The Nagas for example has been fighting for its independence from day one. Unlike the case of Tibet, these are 100% indigenous and homegrown with zero foreign (Western) involvements and agitations.

    Replies: @Jatt Arya, @showmethereal, @Not Only Wrathful, @Colin Wright

    , @Daniel Chieh
    @Mr. XYZ

    China doesn't really have use for more inaccessible land; it has plenty of that already.

    Replies: @DB Cooper, @Mr. XYZ

  10. @songbird

    in 1971, the Soviet Navy helped deter the Americans from intervening against India in support of Pakistan
     
    I don't think America really cared about the sub-continent back then. Certainly not enough to get militarily involved in a Hindu-Muslim ethno-religious war, while simultaneously fighting a war in Vietnam. A little saber-rattling with the fleet is a different matter.

    Nuclear weapons make a lot of discussion of future conflict mute. Any future conflict between China and India is likely to be fought on K Street, as they wrangle over who controls the diminishing US.

    Replies: @Ian Smith, @nebulafox, @JohnPlywood

    Yahya Khan, the leader of Pakistan at the time, was helping the Nixon administration with its rapprochement with China, so between that and Nixon’s deep loathing of India Gandhi, we weren’t too interested in helping Bangladesh.

    https://foreignpolicy.com/2013/12/17/the-blood-telegram/

    • Thanks: songbird
  11. @Mr. XYZ
    Anatoly, just how far deep into (as in, inside of) India do you think that China can realistically expand in a conventional war between these two countries? I am aware that the Himalayas are in the way but even if China could seize, say, Tawang, then this in itself could be a huge propaganda coup for China.

    Replies: @DB Cooper, @Daniel Chieh

    India has no business in that part of the territory, period. India should vacate the northeast in general and NEFA in particular. Many insurgency groups are operating in the northeast vying for independence from India. The Nagas for example has been fighting for its independence from day one. Unlike the case of Tibet, these are 100% indigenous and homegrown with zero foreign (Western) involvements and agitations.

    • Disagree: Not Only Wrathful
    • Replies: @Jatt Arya
    @DB Cooper

    Only if they re-convert||
    China is doing this to offset Indian moves in POK & Pak is moving into Gilgit-Baltistan||

    http://delhidefencereview.com/2017/08/13/did-indian-army-troops-save-chinese-troops-in-sudan/

    Troop quality is on Indian side, lot of high altitude experience.
    Already lakhs of acclimatized men||

    62 was due to Nehru not funding the army, 303s don't do well vs AKs.
    Later skirmishes have been won by India||
    China faces the issue of taking off at a higher altitude and lack of native pop in Army||

    @not raul

    Every time you link a BBC article about India v Pak (known pro-Muslim bias)
    A dozen anglo girls are raped in the cellars||

    I would bet 1.5 to 1 in favor of China mostly because of Pak, Nepal & Intl (white) actors seeking to take down Modi||
    Babus are also cowards & Hindus want peace||

    Replies: @DB Cooper, @Jatt Arya, @Tor597, @Meena

    , @showmethereal
    @DB Cooper

    yeah but since india is a "democracy" it gets a pass. plus they were willful foot soldiers for the British when they wanted to invade other Asian countries (including China) - so that has rubbed off on them.

    , @Not Only Wrathful
    @DB Cooper

    Bizarre CCP trolling.

    , @Colin Wright
    @DB Cooper

    '... Unlike the case of Tibet, these are 100% indigenous and homegrown with zero foreign (Western) involvements and agitations.'

    Lol (well, smirk). Let's rephrase that:

    '...Unlike the case of Tibet, these are 100% indigenous and homegrown with zero foreign (Western) involvements and agitations peoples are ruled by India rather than China, so suddenly I'm all for their independence.'

    Your hypocrisy is almost cute. It's so transparent.

    Replies: @lin

  12. The real winner of a China-India conflict will be Uralvagonzavod and Sukhoi

    • Agree: mal
    • LOL: Anatoly Karlin
    • Replies: @Swarthy Greek
    @AltSerrice

    Isn’t Sukhoi called OAK these days?

  13. @AltSerrice
    The real winner of a China-India conflict will be Uralvagonzavod and Sukhoi

    Replies: @Swarthy Greek

    Isn’t Sukhoi called OAK these days?

  14. A123 says:

    good idea for estimating its expected performance over, say, Taiwan. The conflict with India can be dialed up and down, whereas for obvious reasons, any invasion of Taiwan will be an On/Off affair.

    Red China’s inability to assimilate Hong Kong is an obvious, dismal failure.

    While the PRC military could overwhelm Taiwan… What is the end game? A painful Loss of Face from failed assimilation? It seems highly unlikely that Xi will volunteer for an inevitable PR disaster. The HK mess can be accurately and effectively blamed on his predecessors, outsiders, others, etc.

    Both countries are effectively islands relative to each other, so scope for a traditional land war is limited. In the Himalayas …

    Very true. The smart move for India would be avoiding a head-to-head conflict. I am sure they can find some miserable piece of frozen road and accidentally create an mirror image by placing their troops on an equivalent piece of unprotected Chinese property.

    Both Xi and Modi can then receive their shared Nobel Peace Prize by giving back the accidentally taken land in the Spirit of Friendship.

    the Strait of Malacca is getting cut off either which way come the Next Great War, so a (more) hostile India would not be too relevant.

    And, a military without reliable sources energy cannot bear a long war that would exhaust its resources. Losing access to Persian Gulf oil transiting The Strait of Malacca is a known issue for Chinese military planners. Strategic reserves only go so far.
    _____

    Objectively, the most likely outcome to a conventional arms India-China conflict is a grinding lose-lose stalemate between:

    — Better equipped Chinese forces hampered by fuel & supply shortages.
    — Less capable Indian forces with significant logistical advantages.

    Both sides have nuclear weapons, which could lead to outcomes worse than stalemate.
    _____

    One has to believe that both India and China are taking actions primarily for domestic media consumption. Neither side has any motivation to escalate. As long as the PR encounters are between limited numbers of infantry, there is little potential for an irretrievable accident/mistake.

    PEACE 😇

    • Replies: @DB Cooper
    @A123

    "Less capable Indian forces with significant logistical advantages."

    There was a time as far as South Tibet (so called Arunachal Pradesh) goes this is true. But it is no longer true because Tibet today is not as remote to coastal China as before due to the network of roads and railways and airports built in the past couple of decades. On the other hand India never enjoy logistic advantage in the Aksai Chin area because this area is high up in the Tibetan plateau with easy assess from the Chinese side and extremely hard to get at from the lowland India side. In fact because of the difficult terrain China was able to build a highway on Aksai Chin area and for years without India even knowing it. India only knows about it when it read it mentioned in a Chinese article and starting claiming the highway built on Indian territory.

    Replies: @A123

    , @Daniel Chieh
    @A123

    You have no idea what you're rambling about, though that is par for the course from you.

    To both her credit and penatly, China neither participates nor particularly cares about "soft power" failures; it is enormously focused on internal considerations and despite beliefs to the otherwise, has to consider the opinions of its population - including a large percentage of ultranationalists. Given such, reunifying Taiwan would hardly be any "loss of face"; it would instead be generally seen as a fulfillment of a mandate by many.

    Any actual outright conflict between Chinese and Indian forces alone without outside intervention would be a direct wipe of Indian forces, perhaps as easily visible as India's agonizing efforts to setup a ballistic missile defense, choosing instead to try to develop one which after around 15 years, still can't even protect one city.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Ballistic_Missile_Defence_Programme


    Per reports emerged in January 2020, the first phase of BMD program is now complete Indian Air Force (IAF) and the DRDO are waiting for government's approval to install the missile shield for the national capital and will take three to four years to install shield after approval.

     

    Given the absurd mess that is the Indian military, any conflict would immediately surrender all air superiority to China, a disaster in modern warfare; most likely followed by destruction of any number of high material targets as the overwhelming missile strike is Chinese doctrine and leverages the strength of Chinese industry.

    China could probably airlift troops into India as needed, but its not particularly meaningful and its unlikely that China will do so, and even more unlikely that any serious occupation would be attempted(as that would likely prove costly and difficult).

    China will just settle for its strong advantage in inflicting material destruction from a distance or from the air, which is almost certainly going to be one-sided. Strategic reserves would more than last long enough for such an effort.

    Replies: @A123, @Anatoly Karlin

    , @sous-vide
    @A123

    Neither countries have the capabilites to pose an existential threat through conventional warfare. China can't send tank column towards Dehli, nor can India even reach Beijing with bombers, even if they threw all their 5 time their gdp in the war. The chance of a conflict escalating beyond border skimrishes, and flag planting pr stunt to full on nuclear war is exactly zero (unless they become retarded and lose all rationality), unlike a Pakistan/India or China/USA conflict.

  15. theMann says:

    Courtesy of sex-selective abortion, China and India both have a huge surplus of marriage age males vs. females, something like 10% more. It is inherently destabilizing. Right now Chinese buy foreign brides, Indians and Chinese emigrate, but it isn’t enough.

    A really protracted WWI style border war could grind up millions of excess males. Both countries are in deep demographic trouble, powder kegs waiting to happen. Both countries will continue shifting to ever more violent totalitarian measures to corral their male populations, but this will eventually fail.

    Maybe they can find a new and improved Corona virus – one that is actually lethal but only kills males………

    • Replies: @Jatt Arya
    @theMann

    Whites have left christianity (mostly) but are genetically prone to apocalyptic doomsday thinking||

    Males marry later than females so this isn't really an issue, especially when the underclass can be safely ignored. :shrug:

    What was the Euro gender balance when they were emigrating or slaughtering each other in WWs?

    Replies: @theMann

  16. Jatt Arya says:
    June 17, 2020 at 1:11 am GMT • 100 Words   
    @DB Cooper
    @Mr. XYZ

    India has no business in that part of the territory, period. India should vacate the northeast in general and NEFA in particular. Many insurgency groups are operating in the northeast vying for independence from India. The Nagas for example has been fighting for its independence from day one. Unlike the case of Tibet, these are 100% indigenous and homegrown with zero foreign (Western) involvements and agitations.

    Replies: @Jatt Arya, @showmethereal, @Not Only Wrathful, @Colin Wright

    Only if they re-convert||
    China is doing this to offset Indian moves in POK & Pak is moving into Gilgit-Baltistan||

    http://delhidefencereview.com/2017/08/13/did-indian-army-troops-save-chinese-troops-in-sudan/

    Troop quality is on Indian side, lot of high altitude experience.
    Already lakhs of acclimatized men||

    62 was due to Nehru not funding the army, 303s don’t do well vs AKs.
    Later skirmishes have been won by India||
    China faces the issue of taking off at a higher altitude and lack of native pop in Army||

    @not raul

    Every time you link a BBC article about India v Pak (known pro-Muslim bias)
    A dozen anglo girls are raped in the cellars||

    I would bet 1.5 to 1 in favor of China mostly because of Pak, Nepal & Intl (white) actors seeking to take down Modi||
    Babus are also cowards & Hindus want peace||

    • Replies: @DB Cooper
    @Jatt Arya

    "A dozen anglo girls are raped in the cellars'"

    This coming from the land of the rapes.

    Replies: @Jatt Arya

    , @Jatt Arya
    @Jatt Arya

    Diplomatically India only has to show a willingness to fight while China has to win|

    China seems to have taken more casualties from the landslide||

    Endia allowed China to build reserves for months||
    Monsoon will arrive in NW in 7-10 days||
    China had to do something now or wait till next year||

    @DB Cooper

    You'll hate Hindu pagans till the last white man is extinguished by a horde of africans & muslims||

    We get it,

    https://www.academia.edu/2259770/The_Blood_of_Martyrs_The_British_Concept_of_Horror_in_India_and_Imperial_Ideology

    Replies: @Rev. Spooner

    , @Tor597
    @Jatt Arya

    India probably has the worst troop quality in the world mate.

    No offense to you, but I can't think of a country India could conquer unless it was another country full of Indians.

    Replies: @DB Cooper, @Amerimutt Golems

    , @Meena
    @Jatt Arya

    "At least 69fake videos against Muslims and at least 28attacks listedMedia Scanner, a fact-checkingplatform, compiled a list of at least 69fake videos against Muslims and listed at least 28attacks prompted by online abuse. Joyojeet Pal, Associate Professor atthe University of Michigan, and three others found “arise in the number of debunked misinformation, especially following the thirdweek of March.”Pal’s study confirmed the progression of events that followed thegovernment’s religious profiling. “A key 30-day period”, from March 14-April12, “was dominated by discussions of a possible lockdown and about infections”;the discourse gradually “changed to Muslims and religion moresignificantly”, said the study.cited by scroll.in, on Apr 21, 2020.For more : https://scroll.in/article/959806/covid-19-how-fake-news-and-modi-government-messaging-fuelled-indias-latest-spiral-of-islamophobia  https://countercurrents.org/2020/05/fake-news-targeting-muslims-exposed-by-police-but-still-aired-and-that-even-by-mainstream-media

    Indian media under Modi has become an an accomplice in Modi’s calculated atrocity against Muslim .

    No wonder it finds common cause with Likkud of Israel and AIPAC of USA .

    Didn’t Hindustan Times in 2017 put the blames on the burning of the 2002 train squarely on intentional or accidental setting off fire inside the train by the Ram devout pilgrims ? Does that not make the entire Gujrat riot not an act of revenge but an act of premeditated intentional starting ,causing riot supporting riot and adding to riot by the Modi Gov of Gujrata?


    How many times BJP RSS leaders have expressed the desires to rape the Muslim women? As many times the elections have been held since 1987.

  17. @theMann
    Courtesy of sex-selective abortion, China and India both have a huge surplus of marriage age males vs. females, something like 10% more. It is inherently destabilizing. Right now Chinese buy foreign brides, Indians and Chinese emigrate, but it isn't enough.

    A really protracted WWI style border war could grind up millions of excess males. Both countries are in deep demographic trouble, powder kegs waiting to happen. Both countries will continue shifting to ever more violent totalitarian measures to corral their male populations, but this will eventually fail.

    Maybe they can find a new and improved Corona virus - one that is actually lethal but only kills males.........

    Replies: @Jatt Arya

    Whites have left christianity (mostly) but are genetically prone to apocalyptic doomsday thinking||

    Males marry later than females so this isn’t really an issue, especially when the underclass can be safely ignored. :shrug:

    What was the Euro gender balance when they were emigrating or slaughtering each other in WWs?

    • Replies: @theMann
    @Jatt Arya

    WWI, with massive casualties for soldiers and far fewer for civilians, led to a huge imbalance of females over males in most European Countries, and this was directly responsible for those countries embracing Socialism wholeheartedly in the 20's and 30's. It was the Rule of the Ugly Chicks, millions of women with zero chance of getting married, or even laid, turned to the State to replace the Husband in their lives. The literature is rather extensive on this, I believe. Russia fared even worse, and much longer, as WW II gave them the same result, only more so. Indeed, Bolshevism wasn't Ideology so much as sheer female driven hatred turned to the Political.

    The total Economic and Military costs of the two world wars were recuperable, half a century of wild Gender Imbalance wasn't. One small example of this is that even now, European, and especially, Russian, men tend to treat women like crap, since they always expect other women available to take their place.

    The exact opposite mechanism takes place in India\China. Any remotely good looking woman in those two countries is so super saturated with a sense of "I am just SO precious" entitlement that they could almost be honorary American Feminists - yech!

  18. soyuz says:
    June 17, 2020 at 1:14 am GMT • 100 Words   

    China’s water supply depends on the Himalayas and the glaciers there, and on the adjacent mountains in Qinghai.

    US strategy is to try to be able to blockade energy and food imports into China by sea from the Mideast/Persian Gulf. China’s military and naval buildup in the South China Sea and Indian Ocean is to try to prevent this.

    Russia is another energy and food source for China, so regime change in Russia towards a pro-US and pro-NATO regime enables an energy/food blockade of China from Russia.

    US support for Tibetan independence going back to the 50s was due in large part of Tibet’s strategic location for China’s water supply. India’s role in a pro-US coalition against China would be to block China’s water supply in the Himalayas and Tibetan/Qinghai plateau.

    • Agree: showmethereal
  19. DB Cooper says:
    June 17, 2020 at 1:17 am GMT • 200 Words   
    @A123

    good idea for estimating its expected performance over, say, Taiwan. The conflict with India can be dialed up and down, whereas for obvious reasons, any invasion of Taiwan will be an On/Off affair.
     
    Red China's inability to assimilate Hong Kong is an obvious, dismal failure.

    While the PRC military could overwhelm Taiwan... What is the end game? A painful Loss of Face from failed assimilation? It seems highly unlikely that Xi will volunteer for an inevitable PR disaster. The HK mess can be accurately and effectively blamed on his predecessors, outsiders, others, etc.

    Both countries are effectively islands relative to each other, so scope for a traditional land war is limited. In the Himalayas ...
     
    Very true. The smart move for India would be avoiding a head-to-head conflict. I am sure they can find some miserable piece of frozen road and accidentally create an mirror image by placing their troops on an equivalent piece of unprotected Chinese property.

    Both Xi and Modi can then receive their shared Nobel Peace Prize by giving back the accidentally taken land in the Spirit of Friendship.

    the Strait of Malacca is getting cut off either which way come the Next Great War, so a (more) hostile India would not be too relevant.
     
    And, a military without reliable sources energy cannot bear a long war that would exhaust its resources. Losing access to Persian Gulf oil transiting The Strait of Malacca is a known issue for Chinese military planners. Strategic reserves only go so far.
    _____

    Objectively, the most likely outcome to a conventional arms India-China conflict is a grinding lose-lose stalemate between:

    -- Better equipped Chinese forces hampered by fuel & supply shortages.
    -- Less capable Indian forces with significant logistical advantages.

    Both sides have nuclear weapons, which could lead to outcomes worse than stalemate.
    _____

    One has to believe that both India and China are taking actions primarily for domestic media consumption. Neither side has any motivation to escalate. As long as the PR encounters are between limited numbers of infantry, there is little potential for an irretrievable accident/mistake.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @DB Cooper, @Daniel Chieh, @sous-vide

    “Less capable Indian forces with significant logistical advantages.”

    There was a time as far as South Tibet (so called Arunachal Pradesh) goes this is true. But it is no longer true because Tibet today is not as remote to coastal China as before due to the network of roads and railways and airports built in the past couple of decades. On the other hand India never enjoy logistic advantage in the Aksai Chin area because this area is high up in the Tibetan plateau with easy assess from the Chinese side and extremely hard to get at from the lowland India side. In fact because of the difficult terrain China was able to build a highway on Aksai Chin area and for years without India even knowing it. India only knows about it when it read it mentioned in a Chinese article and starting claiming the highway built on Indian territory.

    • Replies: @A123
    @DB Cooper

    The scenario posed was for a Chinese incursion into India. Cross border roads are primitive bordering on non-existent. India can easily cut off tanker traffic through the Straits of Malacca. China would have massive logistics disadvantages everywhere trying to get resupply into Indian territory.

    Your point becomes more interesting if one considers a different scenario, India incursion into China. That would be closer to a logistical tie. China would still be hampered by lack of oil. However, India would have the hard ground transport logistics case of no rail and miserable road connectivity. This would lead to a different grinding stalemate, but the outcome would likely be fairly similar.
    ____

    Another downside to China's strategic position is any war over the Himalayas is one of "fighting seasons". There will be months each year when everything becomes almost impassable to organized military forces. At the same time India can block oil traffic through the Straits of Malacca for 12 months every year.

    Without multiple Supercarrier Task Forces, China cannot project sufficient force to prevent the Indian Navy from sinking or seizing China bound tankers as they try to pass from the Persian Gulf to the Westernmost portion of the Indian Ocean.

    Objectively looking at the balance of forces:
    -- The chances of India beating China are virtually nil.
    -- The odds of a China military victory over India are the same or slightly worse.

    Can anyone envision a "clean" win by China or India?
    ______

    If the geography was slightly different, China could offer to buy India's useless Dalit population in Punjab and Uttar Pradesh. Alas, that would cut off some more useful parts of India.

    There may be a finesse play there for China... If they can find something that India views as an impediment instead of valuable.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @ivan

  20. @Jatt Arya
    @DB Cooper

    Only if they re-convert||
    China is doing this to offset Indian moves in POK & Pak is moving into Gilgit-Baltistan||

    http://delhidefencereview.com/2017/08/13/did-indian-army-troops-save-chinese-troops-in-sudan/

    Troop quality is on Indian side, lot of high altitude experience.
    Already lakhs of acclimatized men||

    62 was due to Nehru not funding the army, 303s don't do well vs AKs.
    Later skirmishes have been won by India||
    China faces the issue of taking off at a higher altitude and lack of native pop in Army||

    @not raul

    Every time you link a BBC article about India v Pak (known pro-Muslim bias)
    A dozen anglo girls are raped in the cellars||

    I would bet 1.5 to 1 in favor of China mostly because of Pak, Nepal & Intl (white) actors seeking to take down Modi||
    Babus are also cowards & Hindus want peace||

    Replies: @DB Cooper, @Jatt Arya, @Tor597, @Meena

    “A dozen anglo girls are raped in the cellars’”

    This coming from the land of the rapes.

    • Replies: @Jatt Arya
    @DB Cooper

    See other comment.

    Muh troop quality, bro!

    https://twitter.com/BhurianWale/status/1268995268348764160

    http://exiledonline.com/war-nerd-classic-in-praise-of-sikhs-the-coolest-warrior-tribe-around/

    https://twitter.com/bullehbatalvi/status/1128599391168647170

  21. Jatt Arya says:
    June 17, 2020 at 1:21 am GMT • 100 Words   
    @Jatt Arya
    @DB Cooper

    Only if they re-convert||
    China is doing this to offset Indian moves in POK & Pak is moving into Gilgit-Baltistan||

    http://delhidefencereview.com/2017/08/13/did-indian-army-troops-save-chinese-troops-in-sudan/

    Troop quality is on Indian side, lot of high altitude experience.
    Already lakhs of acclimatized men||

    62 was due to Nehru not funding the army, 303s don't do well vs AKs.
    Later skirmishes have been won by India||
    China faces the issue of taking off at a higher altitude and lack of native pop in Army||

    @not raul

    Every time you link a BBC article about India v Pak (known pro-Muslim bias)
    A dozen anglo girls are raped in the cellars||

    I would bet 1.5 to 1 in favor of China mostly because of Pak, Nepal & Intl (white) actors seeking to take down Modi||
    Babus are also cowards & Hindus want peace||

    Replies: @DB Cooper, @Jatt Arya, @Tor597, @Meena

    Diplomatically India only has to show a willingness to fight while China has to win|

    China seems to have taken more casualties from the landslide||

    Endia allowed China to build reserves for months||
    Monsoon will arrive in NW in 7-10 days||
    China had to do something now or wait till next year||

    You’ll hate Hindu pagans till the last white man is extinguished by a horde of africans & muslims||

    We get it,

    https://www.academia.edu/2259770/The_Blood_of_Martyrs_The_British_Concept_of_Horror_in_India_and_Imperial_Ideology

    • Replies: @Rev. Spooner
    @Jatt Arya

    The place where the skirmishes are happening is an high altitude desert and not affected by monsoon. As for Arunachal Pradesh in the north east, I dont think it's going to escalate to that level and spread a thousand miles east. Both India and China are pragmatic and even though Modi is not very intelligent, he has competent advisors. This is just a bit of theater for domestic/public consumption.

  22. I am not sure of the logic behind the Chinese belligerence.

    China isn’t belligerent. Neither side can be considered belligerent but India has badly misread China. Key points to remember when considering belligerence.

    1) India has launched a massive military buildup in the boundary area since 2009; China hasn’t and doesn’t have many men stationed at the border.
    2) At several spots along the border there are areas of differing perceptions. Each side routinely patrols within their claim line and at the same time transgresses into the other side’s claimed territory.
    3) India has surged construction of 30+ border road projects since admonishment by parliament in late 2018 over weak construction progress. Construction is changing the environment and could have led to misunderstanding.
    4) The physical fight (no shots fired) was during disengagement following procedure agreed on earlier in the month. I don’t know how the fight broke out but when it happened it looked at the time like the situation was easing.
    5) There is no logic to belligerence. China doesn’t want military conflict with India. The grand strategy of China is focused on the US. While India feels victimized and provoked by China for reasons related to the border dispute and support for Pakistan, the tensions are in the realm of diplomacy. But Indians don’t make the distinction seeing political provocations as evidence of Chinese intent to launch a war. (I believe there are psychological reasons for Indians to stick to their belief in a malevolent China. I discuss in previous comments linked below.)

    *speculation* Lastly, the incident occurred on a ridge with a freezing river below. That may be why the number of deaths is so high. The fight lasted hours and was splish splash. The Global Times editor claims India didn’t have capacity to evacuate injured soldiers. He doesn’t back up the claim but notably the Indo-Tibetan Border Police, a nearly 100,000 strong paramilitary force that jointly guards the Himalayan border with the Indian Army doesn’t have a single helicopter to its name. ITBP has begged the Home Affairs bureaucracy for its own choppers but the process is delayed. Instead ITBP relies on overtaxed military helicopters.

    My previous comments on China-India tensions and Chinese strategy

    1. https://www.unz.com/akarlin/iq-2019/#comment-3903959
    2. https://www.unz.com/akarlin/iq-2019/#comment-3906816
    3. https://www.unz.com/akarlin/iq-2019/#comment-3911350

    • Replies: @Jatt Arya
    @china-russia-all-the-way

    Mudi has to react since casualties are from Bihar regiment||

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Bihar_Legislative_Assembly_election



    China doesn't need to station many men when it has an infrastructural advantage.
    Recent re-organisations and additions of airfields, artillery bases etc in Tibet also threaten the Indian side.

    http://delhidefencereview.com/2020/06/03/a-military-appraisal-of-the-india-china-standoffs-in-eastern-ladakh/

    Stop cow slaughter & we can be friends|| :shrug:

    http://delhidefencereview.com/2017/07/26/duel-in-the-himalayas-how-india-and-china-square-off/



    For years, India had deliberately kept its frontier with China devoid of much access infrastructure due to a premise that the absence of such connectivity would lead to attacking forces getting bogged down, thereby giving time to the Indian military to regroup and respond to an invasion. Even now, the Indian strategy in a few sectors seeks to let Chinese forces concentrate within the narrow confines of a valley before focusing an assault from the flanks. However, this outlook of basically conceding some territory up-front during an enemy advance began changing by the early 1990s, when Beijing started building a massive rail and road network of its own in the Tibetan Autonomous Region (TAR) that created a situation whereby the People’s Liberation Army Ground Force (PLAGF) and the People’s Armed Police (PAP) can attempt both creeping encroachment as well as salami-slice tactics along the LAC between India and China.
     

    Typically, the Chinese ‘road head’ is either right up to the LAC or is just a few hundred metres short of it while the Indian ‘road head’ could be anywhere between a several hundred metres to several kms short of the LAC, although this is changing now.
     

    With India now pushing back against Chinese encroachment both at the LAC as well as what it considers to be its sphere of influence in South Asia, tensions are on the rise. Three years ago, what was supposed to be a new beginning for India-China relations, with President Xi Jinping becoming the first major head of State to visit India after Modi assumed office, turned sour as Chinese troops intruded into Indian territory in Eastern Ladakh, even as the visit was underway.
     

    With CPEC, China has essentially inserted itself into the Kashmir dispute in a major way.
     


    Chinese Capability in Tibet
    could concentrate the equivalent of up to 7 division sized formations in TAR within a week’s time with one RR division being inducted into Lhasa in as little 24-36 hours. Nevertheless, most of the deployed forces from lower altitudes will take at least two weeks to get acclimatized and this must be added to the time taken for simply mobilizing a certain quantum of forces from outside TAR.

    For sustaining whatever forces it inducts into Tibet, the PLAGF, apart from the specialized storage facilities it has built there, can also leverage various ‘civilian’ logistic nodes that have ‘dual-use’ billeting and warehousing complexes complete with loading ramps and traffic loops as well as hard standings. (some are 30km from border)

    Since 2012, the People’s Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) has been conducting live fire exercises in Tibet that have included providing support to ground forces training for the ‘capture of passes in high-altitude regions’. Winter operations have also become routine after being carried out for the first time in 2012. Night flying drills out of Lhasa Gonggar have also been reported in the Chinese media. In addition to the airfields in TAR, the Western TC has over a dozen other airfields within 1200 km of the LAC from which PLAAF aircraft could be based during a conflict with India. Incidentally, two very large helicopter bases are located in Aksai Chin,
     

    The Indian Build-up
    Probably the target of greatest value for the Chinese is Tawang,
    an entire IA mountain (Mt) division, the 5th under IV Corps has its headquarters in neighbouring West Kameng district with the defence of Tawang as its focus.
    Indian forces deployed in Tawang have the best firepower the IA has at its disposal
    there is still essentially a single axis road that connects Tawang to the plains below but that road after years of neglect is now being re-carpeted with long lasting concrete by India’s Border Roads Organization, which also intends to construct a tunnel

    In addition to 5 Division, India has eight more Mt divisions in India’s North-East (with two added just this decade) under the III, IV and XXXIII Corps of its Eastern Command, which are all defensively oriented against the Chinese. An additional infantry division, the 23rd, based in Ranchi, Jharkhand is under III corps but is a ‘dual-tasked formation’ (DTF) since it is also attached to a ‘Strike Corps’ meant for the Pakistan border.

    Another flashpoint is of course the Depsang plains that abuts the Siachen Glacier and the all- important Karakoram Pass. In 2013, the area witnessed a major incursion by the PLAGF that led to a standoff which was defused only after the IA managed to deploy sizeable forces there with the support of IAF Mi-17 helicopters since road connectivity was non-existent at the time. Indeed, a few months later the IAF demonstrated a C-130J landing at Daulat Beg Oldi (DBO) advanced landing ground (ALG) in Depsang, which is at an elevation of 5065 metres, making it the highest airstrip in the world.

     



    Nevertheless, the area continued to be perceived by the PLAGF as vulnerable given that it had a road that led right up to the Chip Chap river and had also deployed armoured columns in the vicinity using the Western Highway. Moreover, PLA’s Western TC also has three airfields in the vicinity at Kashgar, Shiquan and Hotan, wherefrom PLAAF fighters can take-off with sizeable payloads. However, India has reinforced this area with a brigade in addition to deploying T-72 tanks in the area. Importantly, India is in the process of deploying an entire armoured brigade in Eastern ladakh, with two T-72 regiments already operational.

    Turning to a possible contest in the skies, it is clear that IAF aircraft will have an endurance advantage in any air war over Tibet. Moreover, the adverse meteorological conditions over Tibet are difficult to negotiate at the best of times and it remains to be seen how well the PLAAF would cope with that during a major air campaign, especially given the limited infrastructure at most TAR airfields. In sharp contrast to this, all major IAF airbases with relevance to the LAC have been upgraded as part of the modernization of airfield infrastructure (MAFI) project which has seen the installation of air traffic control and landing aids that makes them capable of hosting aircraft for day/night all-weather operations.
     
  23. Visualization of incident area

  24. nebulafox says:
    June 17, 2020 at 2:08 am GMT • 200 Words   
    @songbird

    in 1971, the Soviet Navy helped deter the Americans from intervening against India in support of Pakistan
     
    I don't think America really cared about the sub-continent back then. Certainly not enough to get militarily involved in a Hindu-Muslim ethno-religious war, while simultaneously fighting a war in Vietnam. A little saber-rattling with the fleet is a different matter.

    Nuclear weapons make a lot of discussion of future conflict mute. Any future conflict between China and India is likely to be fought on K Street, as they wrangle over who controls the diminishing US.

    Replies: @Ian Smith, @nebulafox, @JohnPlywood

    It was more ethno than religious. The essential issue was that the two Pakistans had Islam in common, and nothing else: not even a common alphabet.

    As was often the case in the Cold War, local regional powers often acted independently of their superpower patrons for their own interests. This isn’t to say that superpower behavior was irrelevant, but tangential compared to the interests of the directly involved parties. In the specific case of the 1971 war, the US tilt toward Pakistan was largely about tilting toward China, one of the few reliable go-betweens that could serve Beijing and Washington simultaneously at the time. To this day, China and Pakistan enjoy a very tight relationship, but back then, it was one of the few outside connections that China had to the world that the US also had a friendly relationship with.

    If you’d like to know a little more about the American role specifically, here’s an interesting link.

    http://nixontapes.org/india-pakistan.html

    • Thanks: songbird
    • Replies: @songbird
    @nebulafox


    The President added, “Now, Goddamnit, they’ve got to know this...Goddamnit, who’s giving them a billion dollars a year? Shit, the Russians aren’t giving them a billion dollars a year, Henry.”

     

    The Nixon tapes are pretty entertaining. Someday, I'd like to hear the one where he calls Indira "an old witch."
    It is a crying shame that they pulled the tape machine from the Oval Office. (and too bad there are no known tapes of Indira or Mao talking - though I think Mao was bugged, so maybe)

    In many ways, Nixon was flawed, but I think it unlikely that the US will ever have a president as intelligent going forward. Not in its decline.

    Replies: @nebulafox

  25. A123 says:
    June 17, 2020 at 2:08 am GMT • 300 Words   
    @DB Cooper
    @A123

    "Less capable Indian forces with significant logistical advantages."

    There was a time as far as South Tibet (so called Arunachal Pradesh) goes this is true. But it is no longer true because Tibet today is not as remote to coastal China as before due to the network of roads and railways and airports built in the past couple of decades. On the other hand India never enjoy logistic advantage in the Aksai Chin area because this area is high up in the Tibetan plateau with easy assess from the Chinese side and extremely hard to get at from the lowland India side. In fact because of the difficult terrain China was able to build a highway on Aksai Chin area and for years without India even knowing it. India only knows about it when it read it mentioned in a Chinese article and starting claiming the highway built on Indian territory.

    Replies: @A123

    The scenario posed was for a Chinese incursion into India. Cross border roads are primitive bordering on non-existent. India can easily cut off tanker traffic through the Straits of Malacca. China would have massive logistics disadvantages everywhere trying to get resupply into Indian territory.

    Your point becomes more interesting if one considers a different scenario, India incursion into China. That would be closer to a logistical tie. China would still be hampered by lack of oil. However, India would have the hard ground transport logistics case of no rail and miserable road connectivity. This would lead to a different grinding stalemate, but the outcome would likely be fairly similar.
    ____

    Another downside to China’s strategic position is any war over the Himalayas is one of “fighting seasons”. There will be months each year when everything becomes almost impassable to organized military forces. At the same time India can block oil traffic through the Straits of Malacca for 12 months every year.

    Without multiple Supercarrier Task Forces, China cannot project sufficient force to prevent the Indian Navy from sinking or seizing China bound tankers as they try to pass from the Persian Gulf to the Westernmost portion of the Indian Ocean.

    Objectively looking at the balance of forces:
    — The chances of India beating China are virtually nil.
    — The odds of a China military victory over India are the same or slightly worse.

    Can anyone envision a “clean” win by China or India?
    ______

    If the geography was slightly different, China could offer to buy India’s useless Dalit population in Punjab and Uttar Pradesh. Alas, that would cut off some more useful parts of India.

    There may be a finesse play there for China… If they can find something that India views as an impediment instead of valuable.

    PEACE 😇

    • Replies: @ivan
    @A123

    Well said. Neither side can deal a crushing blow onto the other. There are simply too many people. I have to add as an Indian that we know all about China's "nibble and negotiate" trickery. For too long under Modi we have given in to everything the Chinese asked in the name of "good relations": On Tibet, on Taiwan, on Hong Kong catering to their whims, and even pre-emptively kowtowing by firing a news anchor who merely referred to XI JinPing as "Eleven" Jinping. That moron Modi has a lot to answer for, but even for him all that has changed overnight. And incidentally Karlin is once again proving to be an unreliable guide with his "statistics" : China does not overwhelm India at all in the Himalayan region. The Himalayas are within walking range of the pilgrims, the Indians can put up 500,000 men strung along the border without batting an eyelid. And for the benefit of some fellows who don't know geography the Tibetan Plateau is the watershed of India too. Two can play the game of "vital national interests" or even "lebensraum" when it comes to Tibet.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-29274792

  26. Jatt Arya says:
    June 17, 2020 at 2:21 am GMT • 1,100 Words   
    @china-russia-all-the-way

    I am not sure of the logic behind the Chinese belligerence.
     
    China isn't belligerent. Neither side can be considered belligerent but India has badly misread China. Key points to remember when considering belligerence.

    1) India has launched a massive military buildup in the boundary area since 2009; China hasn't and doesn't have many men stationed at the border.
    2) At several spots along the border there are areas of differing perceptions. Each side routinely patrols within their claim line and at the same time transgresses into the other side's claimed territory.
    3) India has surged construction of 30+ border road projects since admonishment by parliament in late 2018 over weak construction progress. Construction is changing the environment and could have led to misunderstanding.
    4) The physical fight (no shots fired) was during disengagement following procedure agreed on earlier in the month. I don't know how the fight broke out but when it happened it looked at the time like the situation was easing.
    5) There is no logic to belligerence. China doesn't want military conflict with India. The grand strategy of China is focused on the US. While India feels victimized and provoked by China for reasons related to the border dispute and support for Pakistan, the tensions are in the realm of diplomacy. But Indians don't make the distinction seeing political provocations as evidence of Chinese intent to launch a war. (I believe there are psychological reasons for Indians to stick to their belief in a malevolent China. I discuss in previous comments linked below.)

    *speculation* Lastly, the incident occurred on a ridge with a freezing river below. That may be why the number of deaths is so high. The fight lasted hours and was splish splash. The Global Times editor claims India didn't have capacity to evacuate injured soldiers. He doesn't back up the claim but notably the Indo-Tibetan Border Police, a nearly 100,000 strong paramilitary force that jointly guards the Himalayan border with the Indian Army doesn't have a single helicopter to its name. ITBP has begged the Home Affairs bureaucracy for its own choppers but the process is delayed. Instead ITBP relies on overtaxed military helicopters.

    My previous comments on China-India tensions and Chinese strategy

    1. https://www.unz.com/akarlin/iq-2019/#comment-3903959
    2. https://www.unz.com/akarlin/iq-2019/#comment-3906816
    3. https://www.unz.com/akarlin/iq-2019/#comment-3911350

    Replies: @Jatt Arya

    Mudi has to react since casualties are from Bihar regiment||

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Bihar_Legislative_Assembly_election

    [MORE]

    China doesn’t need to station many men when it has an infrastructural advantage.
    Recent re-organisations and additions of airfields, artillery bases etc in Tibet also threaten the Indian side.

    http://delhidefencereview.com/2020/06/03/a-military-appraisal-of-the-india-china-standoffs-in-eastern-ladakh/

    Stop cow slaughter & we can be friends|| :shrug:

    http://delhidefencereview.com/2017/07/26/duel-in-the-himalayas-how-india-and-china-square-off/

    For years, India had deliberately kept its frontier with China devoid of much access infrastructure due to a premise that the absence of such connectivity would lead to attacking forces getting bogged down, thereby giving time to the Indian military to regroup and respond to an invasion. Even now, the Indian strategy in a few sectors seeks to let Chinese forces concentrate within the narrow confines of a valley before focusing an assault from the flanks. However, this outlook of basically conceding some territory up-front during an enemy advance began changing by the early 1990s, when Beijing started building a massive rail and road network of its own in the Tibetan Autonomous Region (TAR) that created a situation whereby the People’s Liberation Army Ground Force (PLAGF) and the People’s Armed Police (PAP) can attempt both creeping encroachment as well as salami-slice tactics along the LAC between India and China.

    Typically, the Chinese ‘road head’ is either right up to the LAC or is just a few hundred metres short of it while the Indian ‘road head’ could be anywhere between a several hundred metres to several kms short of the LAC, although this is changing now.

    With India now pushing back against Chinese encroachment both at the LAC as well as what it considers to be its sphere of influence in South Asia, tensions are on the rise. Three years ago, what was supposed to be a new beginning for India-China relations, with President Xi Jinping becoming the first major head of State to visit India after Modi assumed office, turned sour as Chinese troops intruded into Indian territory in Eastern Ladakh, even as the visit was underway.

    With CPEC, China has essentially inserted itself into the Kashmir dispute in a major way.

    Chinese Capability in Tibet
    could concentrate the equivalent of up to 7 division sized formations in TAR within a week’s time with one RR division being inducted into Lhasa in as little 24-36 hours. Nevertheless, most of the deployed forces from lower altitudes will take at least two weeks to get acclimatized and this must be added to the time taken for simply mobilizing a certain quantum of forces from outside TAR.

    For sustaining whatever forces it inducts into Tibet, the PLAGF, apart from the specialized storage facilities it has built there, can also leverage various ‘civilian’ logistic nodes that have ‘dual-use’ billeting and warehousing complexes complete with loading ramps and traffic loops as well as hard standings. (some are 30km from border)

    Since 2012, the People’s Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) has been conducting live fire exercises in Tibet that have included providing support to ground forces training for the ‘capture of passes in high-altitude regions’. Winter operations have also become routine after being carried out for the first time in 2012. Night flying drills out of Lhasa Gonggar have also been reported in the Chinese media. In addition to the airfields in TAR, the Western TC has over a dozen other airfields within 1200 km of the LAC from which PLAAF aircraft could be based during a conflict with India. Incidentally, two very large helicopter bases are located in Aksai Chin,

    The Indian Build-up
    Probably the target of greatest value for the Chinese is Tawang,
    an entire IA mountain (Mt) division, the 5th under IV Corps has its headquarters in neighbouring West Kameng district with the defence of Tawang as its focus.
    Indian forces deployed in Tawang have the best firepower the IA has at its disposal
    there is still essentially a single axis road that connects Tawang to the plains below but that road after years of neglect is now being re-carpeted with long lasting concrete by India’s Border Roads Organization, which also intends to construct a tunnel

    In addition to 5 Division, India has eight more Mt divisions in India’s North-East (with two added just this decade) under the III, IV and XXXIII Corps of its Eastern Command, which are all defensively oriented against the Chinese. An additional infantry division, the 23rd, based in Ranchi, Jharkhand is under III corps but is a ‘dual-tasked formation’ (DTF) since it is also attached to a ‘Strike Corps’ meant for the Pakistan border.

    Another flashpoint is of course the Depsang plains that abuts the Siachen Glacier and the all- important Karakoram Pass. In 2013, the area witnessed a major incursion by the PLAGF that led to a standoff which was defused only after the IA managed to deploy sizeable forces there with the support of IAF Mi-17 helicopters since road connectivity was non-existent at the time. Indeed, a few months later the IAF demonstrated a C-130J landing at Daulat Beg Oldi (DBO) advanced landing ground (ALG) in Depsang, which is at an elevation of 5065 metres, making it the highest airstrip in the world.

    Nevertheless, the area continued to be perceived by the PLAGF as vulnerable given that it had a road that led right up to the Chip Chap river and had also deployed armoured columns in the vicinity using the Western Highway. Moreover, PLA’s Western TC also has three airfields in the vicinity at Kashgar, Shiquan and Hotan, wherefrom PLAAF fighters can take-off with sizeable payloads. However, India has reinforced this area with a brigade in addition to deploying T-72 tanks in the area. Importantly, India is in the process of deploying an entire armoured brigade in Eastern ladakh, with two T-72 regiments already operational.

    Turning to a possible contest in the skies, it is clear that IAF aircraft will have an endurance advantage in any air war over Tibet. Moreover, the adverse meteorological conditions over Tibet are difficult to negotiate at the best of times and it remains to be seen how well the PLAAF would cope with that during a major air campaign, especially given the limited infrastructure at most TAR airfields. In sharp contrast to this, all major IAF airbases with relevance to the LAC have been upgraded as part of the modernization of airfield infrastructure (MAFI) project which has seen the installation of air traffic control and landing aids that makes them capable of hosting aircraft for day/night all-weather operations.

  27. @DB Cooper
    @Jatt Arya

    "A dozen anglo girls are raped in the cellars'"

    This coming from the land of the rapes.

    Replies: @Jatt Arya

    See other comment.

    Muh troop quality, bro!

    http://exiledonline.com/war-nerd-classic-in-praise-of-sikhs-the-coolest-warrior-tribe-around/

  28. theMann says:
    June 17, 2020 at 2:26 am GMT • 200 Words   
    @Jatt Arya
    @theMann

    Whites have left christianity (mostly) but are genetically prone to apocalyptic doomsday thinking||

    Males marry later than females so this isn't really an issue, especially when the underclass can be safely ignored. :shrug:

    What was the Euro gender balance when they were emigrating or slaughtering each other in WWs?

    Replies: @theMann

    WWI, with massive casualties for soldiers and far fewer for civilians, led to a huge imbalance of females over males in most European Countries, and this was directly responsible for those countries embracing Socialism wholeheartedly in the 20’s and 30’s. It was the Rule of the Ugly Chicks, millions of women with zero chance of getting married, or even laid, turned to the State to replace the Husband in their lives. The literature is rather extensive on this, I believe. Russia fared even worse, and much longer, as WW II gave them the same result, only more so. Indeed, Bolshevism wasn’t Ideology so much as sheer female driven hatred turned to the Political.

    The total Economic and Military costs of the two world wars were recuperable, half a century of wild Gender Imbalance wasn’t. One small example of this is that even now, European, and especially, Russian, men tend to treat women like crap, since they always expect other women available to take their place.

    The exact opposite mechanism takes place in India\China. Any remotely good looking woman in those two countries is so super saturated with a sense of “I am just SO precious” entitlement that they could almost be honorary American Feminists – yech!

  29. @A123

    good idea for estimating its expected performance over, say, Taiwan. The conflict with India can be dialed up and down, whereas for obvious reasons, any invasion of Taiwan will be an On/Off affair.
     
    Red China's inability to assimilate Hong Kong is an obvious, dismal failure.

    While the PRC military could overwhelm Taiwan... What is the end game? A painful Loss of Face from failed assimilation? It seems highly unlikely that Xi will volunteer for an inevitable PR disaster. The HK mess can be accurately and effectively blamed on his predecessors, outsiders, others, etc.

    Both countries are effectively islands relative to each other, so scope for a traditional land war is limited. In the Himalayas ...
     
    Very true. The smart move for India would be avoiding a head-to-head conflict. I am sure they can find some miserable piece of frozen road and accidentally create an mirror image by placing their troops on an equivalent piece of unprotected Chinese property.

    Both Xi and Modi can then receive their shared Nobel Peace Prize by giving back the accidentally taken land in the Spirit of Friendship.

    the Strait of Malacca is getting cut off either which way come the Next Great War, so a (more) hostile India would not be too relevant.
     
    And, a military without reliable sources energy cannot bear a long war that would exhaust its resources. Losing access to Persian Gulf oil transiting The Strait of Malacca is a known issue for Chinese military planners. Strategic reserves only go so far.
    _____

    Objectively, the most likely outcome to a conventional arms India-China conflict is a grinding lose-lose stalemate between:

    -- Better equipped Chinese forces hampered by fuel & supply shortages.
    -- Less capable Indian forces with significant logistical advantages.

    Both sides have nuclear weapons, which could lead to outcomes worse than stalemate.
    _____

    One has to believe that both India and China are taking actions primarily for domestic media consumption. Neither side has any motivation to escalate. As long as the PR encounters are between limited numbers of infantry, there is little potential for an irretrievable accident/mistake.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @DB Cooper, @Daniel Chieh, @sous-vide

    You have no idea what you’re rambling about, though that is par for the course from you.

    To both her credit and penatly, China neither participates nor particularly cares about “soft power” failures; it is enormously focused on internal considerations and despite beliefs to the otherwise, has to consider the opinions of its population – including a large percentage of ultranationalists. Given such, reunifying Taiwan would hardly be any “loss of face”; it would instead be generally seen as a fulfillment of a mandate by many.

    Any actual outright conflict between Chinese and Indian forces alone without outside intervention would be a direct wipe of Indian forces, perhaps as easily visible as India’s agonizing efforts to setup a ballistic missile defense, choosing instead to try to develop one which after around 15 years, still can’t even protect one city.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Ballistic_Missile_Defence_Programme

    Per reports emerged in January 2020, the first phase of BMD program is now complete Indian Air Force (IAF) and the DRDO are waiting for government’s approval to install the missile shield for the national capital and will take three to four years to install shield after approval.

    Given the absurd mess that is the Indian military, any conflict would immediately surrender all air superiority to China, a disaster in modern warfare; most likely followed by destruction of any number of high material targets as the overwhelming missile strike is Chinese doctrine and leverages the strength of Chinese industry.

    China could probably airlift troops into India as needed, but its not particularly meaningful and its unlikely that China will do so, and even more unlikely that any serious occupation would be attempted(as that would likely prove costly and difficult).

    China will just settle for its strong advantage in inflicting material destruction from a distance or from the air, which is almost certainly going to be one-sided. Strategic reserves would more than last long enough for such an effort.

    • Replies: @A123
    @Daniel Chieh


    reunifying Taiwan would hardly be any “loss of face”; it would instead be generally seen as a fulfillment of a mandate by many.
     
    The failure that is Chieh, abysmally flops again. As you have no comprehension of simple facts, being silent is your only viable option... but that is too much to hope for.

    The PRC should have easily foreseen that removing HK from UK Law would have dire financial consequences. And, they failed they to do so. The result is the ongoing PR train wreck that is the current situation. If you are so smart, give us your solution to fix HK's economy..... Put Up, or Shut Up.
    _____

    Fortunately, Xi is vastly more competent than you. Xi looks at HK, and has the intelligence to grasp the long term impact of the PRC breaking another economy and impoverishing the Han Chinese of Taiwan. Again, he has many legitimate ways to deflect blame over HK. The critical errors predate him.

    If Xi orders the conquest of Tiawan, he will personally own 100% of the downside. We all see that you believe Xi is an utter moron, willing to make obvious and easily avoidable errors. Those of us who have observed Xi's skills, intelligence, & temperament have different and more sensible predictions about his behaviour.


    any conflict would immediately surrender all air superiority to China, a disaster in modern warfare;
     
    You are completely ignorant about the physical size of India and its implication on the usefulness of air power. China could achieve U.S.-Vietnam style air superiority over the front. As the history you either do not know or cannot understand shows, that type of air superiority is of limited value when dealing with dispersed light infantry in hostile terrain. China has insufficient aircraft range and capability to run strikes over the entire nation of India to reach the most critical Southern Indian infrastructure.

    In 30-50 years when China has multiple super carrier task forces, the situation will be different. Until then, all rational minds realize their are severe limits on what the Chinese military can accomplish even though 'on paper' it has a better equipment list.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @BS

    , @Anatoly Karlin
    @Daniel Chieh

    You're obviously closer to the mark than A123, but I am not sure China vs. India will be such a complete wipe.

    China's superiority in 4th gen + fighters is only twofold, and Indian pilots are pretty good: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cope_India

    Average Indian < average Chinese, but like China, India gets to select from a billion people, and its caste system has ensured subgroups with high IQ, as well as "martial spirit." The latter are certainly overrepresented within the Indian armed forces, though I assume there's a problem with the former (Indian high IQ tend to be apatride - even more than usual for this group).

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @A123, @last straw, @china-russia-all-the-way

  30. @Mr. XYZ
    Anatoly, just how far deep into (as in, inside of) India do you think that China can realistically expand in a conventional war between these two countries? I am aware that the Himalayas are in the way but even if China could seize, say, Tawang, then this in itself could be a huge propaganda coup for China.

    Replies: @DB Cooper, @Daniel Chieh

    China doesn’t really have use for more inaccessible land; it has plenty of that already.

    • Replies: @DB Cooper
    @Daniel Chieh

    China should absolutely take back South Tibet including Tawang, may be not today or tomorrow but eventually. India has no business there. The locals hate the Indians, and for good reasons and India knows it and this is the reason AFSPA is imposed there. Tawang is very accessible, it is the birthplace of the Sixth Dalai Lama and home to a four hundred years old Tibetan monastery. Historically it is the last major frontier town of historic Tibet before transitioning into the tribal area south side of the Himalayans and onto the Indian plains.

    Replies: @DB Cooper, @neutral, @Grahamsno(G64)

    , @Mr. XYZ
    @Daniel Chieh

    I believe that Tawang might be important for Tibetans for spiritual reasons, though.

    Replies: @Mr. XYZ

  31. @DB Cooper
    @Mr. XYZ

    India has no business in that part of the territory, period. India should vacate the northeast in general and NEFA in particular. Many insurgency groups are operating in the northeast vying for independence from India. The Nagas for example has been fighting for its independence from day one. Unlike the case of Tibet, these are 100% indigenous and homegrown with zero foreign (Western) involvements and agitations.

    Replies: @Jatt Arya, @showmethereal, @Not Only Wrathful, @Colin Wright

    yeah but since india is a “democracy” it gets a pass. plus they were willful foot soldiers for the British when they wanted to invade other Asian countries (including China) – so that has rubbed off on them.

  32. DB Cooper says:
    June 17, 2020 at 2:59 am GMT • 100 Words   
    @Daniel Chieh
    @Mr. XYZ

    China doesn't really have use for more inaccessible land; it has plenty of that already.

    Replies: @DB Cooper, @Mr. XYZ

    China should absolutely take back South Tibet including Tawang, may be not today or tomorrow but eventually. India has no business there. The locals hate the Indians, and for good reasons and India knows it and this is the reason AFSPA is imposed there. Tawang is very accessible, it is the birthplace of the Sixth Dalai Lama and home to a four hundred years old Tibetan monastery. Historically it is the last major frontier town of historic Tibet before transitioning into the tribal area south side of the Himalayans and onto the Indian plains.

    • Replies: @DB Cooper
    @DB Cooper

    Here is a map showing the location of Tawang. The map is zoomable and you can see in great detail its location (close to the eastern border of Bhutan).

    https://www.digitalcommonwealth.org/search/commonwealth:x633f939c

    , @neutral
    @DB Cooper

    How about neither India or China get it, but rather it goes to an independent Tibet.

    Replies: @Showmethereal

    , @Grahamsno(G64)
    @DB Cooper

    Molon Labe,

    The 7 states of the NE have a population of about 50 million and just a quarter are natives, they lost the demographic battle long back. And assume that WE in a spirit of moral righteous retardation grant those 7 states independence, yes grant those Naga Head Hunters independence then what.

    https://www.google.com/search?q=naga+headhunters&newwindow=1&sxsrf=ALeKk02YlQAV-4FUtwH5PR10cMI6RtL1fw:1592550009948&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjb4YSNp43qAhVO4aQKHXQOAQkQ_AUoAXoECA0QAw&biw=1517&bih=730

    There's an absolute demographic beast called the Bengalis below them, 90 Million on the Indian Side and 250 Million on the Bangladeshi side, they will utterly overwhelm these head hunters in weeks, the Indian Military is fighting a losing battle to keep the hordes away, we have electrified fences where possible around Bangladesh, we shoot dead hundreds every year to keep them away... so you get the drift your muh North East will be begging us to control the Bengali Swarm once you get Independence that is 7 tiny states with nothing in common. Think before you post such rubbish

    Replies: @DB Cooper

  33. @DB Cooper
    @Daniel Chieh

    China should absolutely take back South Tibet including Tawang, may be not today or tomorrow but eventually. India has no business there. The locals hate the Indians, and for good reasons and India knows it and this is the reason AFSPA is imposed there. Tawang is very accessible, it is the birthplace of the Sixth Dalai Lama and home to a four hundred years old Tibetan monastery. Historically it is the last major frontier town of historic Tibet before transitioning into the tribal area south side of the Himalayans and onto the Indian plains.

    Replies: @DB Cooper, @neutral, @Grahamsno(G64)

    Here is a map showing the location of Tawang. The map is zoomable and you can see in great detail its location (close to the eastern border of Bhutan).

    https://www.digitalcommonwealth.org/search/commonwealth:x633f939c

  34. sous-vide says:
    June 17, 2020 at 3:10 am GMT • 100 Words   
    @A123

    good idea for estimating its expected performance over, say, Taiwan. The conflict with India can be dialed up and down, whereas for obvious reasons, any invasion of Taiwan will be an On/Off affair.
     
    Red China's inability to assimilate Hong Kong is an obvious, dismal failure.

    While the PRC military could overwhelm Taiwan... What is the end game? A painful Loss of Face from failed assimilation? It seems highly unlikely that Xi will volunteer for an inevitable PR disaster. The HK mess can be accurately and effectively blamed on his predecessors, outsiders, others, etc.

    Both countries are effectively islands relative to each other, so scope for a traditional land war is limited. In the Himalayas ...
     
    Very true. The smart move for India would be avoiding a head-to-head conflict. I am sure they can find some miserable piece of frozen road and accidentally create an mirror image by placing their troops on an equivalent piece of unprotected Chinese property.

    Both Xi and Modi can then receive their shared Nobel Peace Prize by giving back the accidentally taken land in the Spirit of Friendship.

    the Strait of Malacca is getting cut off either which way come the Next Great War, so a (more) hostile India would not be too relevant.
     
    And, a military without reliable sources energy cannot bear a long war that would exhaust its resources. Losing access to Persian Gulf oil transiting The Strait of Malacca is a known issue for Chinese military planners. Strategic reserves only go so far.
    _____

    Objectively, the most likely outcome to a conventional arms India-China conflict is a grinding lose-lose stalemate between:

    -- Better equipped Chinese forces hampered by fuel & supply shortages.
    -- Less capable Indian forces with significant logistical advantages.

    Both sides have nuclear weapons, which could lead to outcomes worse than stalemate.
    _____

    One has to believe that both India and China are taking actions primarily for domestic media consumption. Neither side has any motivation to escalate. As long as the PR encounters are between limited numbers of infantry, there is little potential for an irretrievable accident/mistake.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @DB Cooper, @Daniel Chieh, @sous-vide

    Neither countries have the capabilites to pose an existential threat through conventional warfare. China can’t send tank column towards Dehli, nor can India even reach Beijing with bombers, even if they threw all their 5 time their gdp in the war. The chance of a conflict escalating beyond border skimrishes, and flag planting pr stunt to full on nuclear war is exactly zero (unless they become retarded and lose all rationality), unlike a Pakistan/India or China/USA conflict.

    • Agree: A123, Not Only Wrathful
  35. A123 says:
    June 17, 2020 at 3:21 am GMT • 400 Words   
    @Daniel Chieh
    @A123

    You have no idea what you're rambling about, though that is par for the course from you.

    To both her credit and penatly, China neither participates nor particularly cares about "soft power" failures; it is enormously focused on internal considerations and despite beliefs to the otherwise, has to consider the opinions of its population - including a large percentage of ultranationalists. Given such, reunifying Taiwan would hardly be any "loss of face"; it would instead be generally seen as a fulfillment of a mandate by many.

    Any actual outright conflict between Chinese and Indian forces alone without outside intervention would be a direct wipe of Indian forces, perhaps as easily visible as India's agonizing efforts to setup a ballistic missile defense, choosing instead to try to develop one which after around 15 years, still can't even protect one city.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Ballistic_Missile_Defence_Programme


    Per reports emerged in January 2020, the first phase of BMD program is now complete Indian Air Force (IAF) and the DRDO are waiting for government's approval to install the missile shield for the national capital and will take three to four years to install shield after approval.

     

    Given the absurd mess that is the Indian military, any conflict would immediately surrender all air superiority to China, a disaster in modern warfare; most likely followed by destruction of any number of high material targets as the overwhelming missile strike is Chinese doctrine and leverages the strength of Chinese industry.

    China could probably airlift troops into India as needed, but its not particularly meaningful and its unlikely that China will do so, and even more unlikely that any serious occupation would be attempted(as that would likely prove costly and difficult).

    China will just settle for its strong advantage in inflicting material destruction from a distance or from the air, which is almost certainly going to be one-sided. Strategic reserves would more than last long enough for such an effort.

    Replies: @A123, @Anatoly Karlin

    reunifying Taiwan would hardly be any “loss of face”; it would instead be generally seen as a fulfillment of a mandate by many.

    The failure that is Chieh, abysmally flops again. As you have no comprehension of simple facts, being silent is your only viable option… but that is too much to hope for.

    The PRC should have easily foreseen that removing HK from UK Law would have dire financial consequences. And, they failed they to do so. The result is the ongoing PR train wreck that is the current situation. If you are so smart, give us your solution to fix HK’s economy….. Put Up, or Shut Up.
    _____

    Fortunately, Xi is vastly more competent than you. Xi looks at HK, and has the intelligence to grasp the long term impact of the PRC breaking another economy and impoverishing the Han Chinese of Taiwan. Again, he has many legitimate ways to deflect blame over HK. The critical errors predate him.

    If Xi orders the conquest of Tiawan, he will personally own 100% of the downside. We all see that you believe Xi is an utter moron, willing to make obvious and easily avoidable errors. Those of us who have observed Xi’s skills, intelligence, & temperament have different and more sensible predictions about his behaviour.

    any conflict would immediately surrender all air superiority to China, a disaster in modern warfare;

    You are completely ignorant about the physical size of India and its implication on the usefulness of air power. China could achieve U.S.-Vietnam style air superiority over the front. As the history you either do not know or cannot understand shows, that type of air superiority is of limited value when dealing with dispersed light infantry in hostile terrain. China has insufficient aircraft range and capability to run strikes over the entire nation of India to reach the most critical Southern Indian infrastructure.

    In 30-50 years when China has multiple super carrier task forces, the situation will be different. Until then, all rational minds realize their are severe limits on what the Chinese military can accomplish even though ‘on paper’ it has a better equipment list.

    PEACE 😇

    • Replies: @BS
    @A123

    Hong Kong accounts for 2% of China's national GDP and has zero essential industries. The CCP could choose to liquidate every man, woman and child in Hong Kong and the country wouldn't even notice it. Instead they're using it as an example for domestic consumption of what happens when you allow Western subversion to spread unchecked. Any "PR nightmare" is this and this alone - do you think the CCP really cares about what some homosexual living in New York who cries when he reads about the latest fake atrocity porn about HK rioters in the NYT thinks?

    Replies: @A123

  36. @Europe Europa
    All Indians seem to do is cold call British people all day long trying to scam them out of money, especially out of elderly and vulnerable people. Sometimes I get 4 or 5 calls a day from Indian scum trying to scam me and I can't be the only one.

    I hope China smashes India for that reason alone, they are absolute scum.

    Replies: @EldnahYm, @Hypnotoad666, @Grahamsno(G64)

    That’s the spirit.

  37. Nothing you said connects in any way to sanity. Let’s just pick a few.

    The PRC should have easily foreseen that removing HK from UK Law would have dire financial consequences. And, they failed they to do so.

    They foresaw many things. And they don’t care – because HK has outlived its usefulness. The “dire financial consequences” such as it was already had happened when it became too much of a political risk for companies to remain. Nor have you considered the possibility that the CCP is completely fine with wrecking HK so that they can essentially repurchase it for the cheap.

    Control is the single greatest motivator of the CCP. An HK that was out of control is essentially useless to them, and an active liability. Whatever “PR” consequences(which China really doesn’t care much about, especially from innately hostile actors), are much less muted than tolerating an active liability.

    Xi looks at HK, and has the intelligence to grasp the long term impact of the PRC breaking another economy and impoverishing the Han Chinese of Taiwan.

    Ultimately, if Taiwan is not cooperative, it is also a liability and if it is heavily populated by Han Chinese, it is in fact seen as an insufferable insult that they would choose to align themselves with ancient enemies such as the Japanese: traitors. The long-term impact of PRC unifying Taiwan is, within Chinese terms and this might be unfortunate, but it would be the summation of the Mandate of Heaven for quite some time. Its a great accomplishment, and great accomplishments are how the Mandate is perceived.

    Rather than idly speculate, try to read up on Chinese history and you’ll see that the habit of endless deathmatches in order to have a single China is the norm.

    If Xi orders the conquest of Tiawan, he will personally own 100% of the downside. We all see that you believe Xi is an utter moron, willing to make obvious and easily avoidable errors.

    The most easily avoided error is to ignore anything that someone like you would say.

    But for starters, Xi is not some sort of Emperor. He has outsized impact but Chinese politics also has multiple factions and he ultimately have to be responsive to the population(to which a good percentage are ultranationalists), and figures such as Zhao Lijian and “wolf warrior” diplomacy are great examples of the increasing prominence of -much more aggressive- politicians. Even top members of the politburo are more “revisionist” and aggressive than he is, and he owns all of their decisions and choices.

    As the history you either do not know or cannot understand shows, that type of air superiority is of limited value when dealing with dispersed light infantry in hostile terrain.

    That does not matter.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Vietnamese_conflicts,_1979%E2%80%931991

    China is completely willing to fight an war of essentially no specific gain, because in any trade of material versus a less industrialized country, China comes out much stronger at the end via attrition. Knockout blows are unnecessary so as long as strategic advantage is realized.

    • Troll: A123
    • Replies: @utu
    @Daniel Chieh

    The US should seriously consider giving guarantees for Taiwan sovereignty.


    https://www.unz.com/pbuchanan/jinping-takes-up-the-us-challenge/#comment-3922573
    If the US is really going to contest and stop China, Taiwan is the place where to draw the line in the sand. The legal case for Taiwan sovereignty and independence from China within the international law is much more clear cut than that for Hong Kong. If the will of the Taiwanese who in majority do not have close historical links to China is to seek the independence then the US should help them. Actually it is the US that should give Taiwan guarantees that it will use all its power to protect the independence of Taiwan so Taiwan can proceed.

    China does not need to have Taiwan just like the US does not need to have Puerto Rico or Hawaii. If Puerto Rico or Hawaii decided to secede I would support any country, including China, that would help them to accomplish it. For similar reason I will support the US helping Taiwan achieve its independence.

    From the point of view of the rest of the world that consists of small countries and small nations neither China nor America are good guys or bad guys. They are powers that small nations and countries have to put up with. While America did some good in the world it also did a lot of evil. China has not been a power long enough yet in the modern era to demonstrate its full capacity for good and evil but nobody has any illusions that given a chance it won’t be much better than America.
     

    Replies: @DB Cooper, @d dan, @soyuz, @A123, @reiner Tor, @Astuteobservor II

    , @animalogic
    @Daniel Chieh

    Given the general & Covid inspired economic problems of the world, I suspect China will prioritize economic matters, if given a chance

    , @A123
    @Daniel Chieh

    Troll Chieh,

    You state that Xi is totally committed to first use of violence. Yet, it is absolutely clear that he has not already attacked Taiwan. Only the brain dead would believe your "premeditated first strike" prognostication. Your position is self refuting. It does not correlate to objective facts in Xi's record.

    As you are an insulting, fact-free TROLL -- I add you to my blocked commenter s list.

    Please do not bother to respond. I will not see it, and no one else wants to hear it either.

    I feel pity for you.. Goodbye.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @Korenchkin

    , @Not Only Wrathful
    @Daniel Chieh

    Your points as regards Hong Kong and Taiwan are in direct contradiction. If Taiwan siding with Japan is an insufferable insult, then HK siding with everyone but the CCP is much more so.

    Your comparison, of the Chinese aggression on Vietnam, with a potential conflict with India, is also inapt, for the purposes you used it for.

    Vietnam as good as won, despite being a far less insurmountable target for China than India would be.

    The CCP would have to be bonkers to make any serious aggression on India. That you can't see it, suggests a serious problem with your perception.

    Your rationale of wars of attrition making more industrialised countries stronger, has no basis in history. Especially ones that don't end in the total defeat of the enemy, which China would be completely incapable of doing...except perhaps by moving to some sort of total war footing and with a lot of luck and no outside intervention; but China would destroy itself to do that.

    I perhaps shouldn't be taking this whole conversation seriously. Both Chinese and Indians are real men and both countries are perfect and have no flaws; except that they are too good, or smart or amazing or something...

    Replies: @showmethereal

    , @Astuteobservor II
    @Daniel Chieh

    From what I have read, the Chinese plan is for the island of Hainan to replace HK.

    Completely.

    And Hainan is supposed to become even more than HK is now.

    HK (the politicians and the business class) is fucked because they couldn't solved the retarded protester problem.

    Replies: @Europe Europa, @EldnahYm

  38. @Daniel Chieh
    @Mr. XYZ

    China doesn't really have use for more inaccessible land; it has plenty of that already.

    Replies: @DB Cooper, @Mr. XYZ

    I believe that Tawang might be important for Tibetans for spiritual reasons, though.

    • Replies: @Mr. XYZ
    @Mr. XYZ

    Spiritual reasons and religious reasons, to be more specific.

  39. Given how competition with the US is heating up, this is either terrible timing by the CCP or good timing by India/US.

    We’ve gone thousands of years without ever really fighting, not sure what the logic here is on either side.

    • Agree: reiner Tor
    • Replies: @DB Cooper
    @Jason Liu

    "We’ve gone thousands of years without ever really fighting, not sure what the logic here is on either side."

    Thats because historically there is no such thing as India. India has existed for a total of seventy three years when in 1947 the British gifted the country they so assiduously created to the subcons. Now the subcons thanks their old master by conning them. See the comment from Europe Europa.

    Replies: @Rev. Spooner

    , @Showmethereal
    @Jason Liu

    Do you for a minute believe India is doing this out of their own volition without "outside encouragement"?
    As to the Chinese side. South Tibet is in Indian hands. Chinese governments are judged by territorial integrity (not letting foreigners bully China) and quality of life. The first one is in play.

  40. Frankly, Russia could cash in on both sides. Both will be eager for support from the North and with a bit of plausible deniability they can get a load from both sides, not to speak of the fact it’ll be the perfect distraction for actions in Eastern Europe and the Middle-East. Unfortunately time repeatedly shows Russians are too cucked and disorganized to seize such once-in-a-lifetime opportunities, though I will be happy to be proved wrong.

  41. DB Cooper says:
    June 17, 2020 at 4:26 am GMT • 100 Words   
    @Jason Liu
    Given how competition with the US is heating up, this is either terrible timing by the CCP or good timing by India/US.

    We've gone thousands of years without ever really fighting, not sure what the logic here is on either side.

    Replies: @DB Cooper, @Showmethereal

    “We’ve gone thousands of years without ever really fighting, not sure what the logic here is on either side.”

    Thats because historically there is no such thing as India. India has existed for a total of seventy three years when in 1947 the British gifted the country they so assiduously created to the subcons. Now the subcons thanks their old master by conning them. See the comment from Europe Europa.

    • Replies: @Rev. Spooner
    @DB Cooper

    Thats because historically there is no such thing as India. India has existed for a total of seventy three years when in 1947 the British gifted the country they so assiduously created to the subcons.

    Wow Mr DB Cooper, you disregard historical accounts for technicalities. If we apply the same yardsticks, then Italy was the same, as was the USA, Russia and every country in the world except for some tiny Pacific atolls. Most countries were tiny fiefdoms that grew to become what they are today.
    As for India, the whole ancient world acknowledged India's geographical location and approximate territorial borders long before they were even aware of the western barbarians.

    Replies: @DB Cooper

  42. utu says:
    June 17, 2020 at 4:46 am GMT • 300 Words   
    @Daniel Chieh
    Nothing you said connects in any way to sanity. Let's just pick a few.

    The PRC should have easily foreseen that removing HK from UK Law would have dire financial consequences. And, they failed they to do so.
     

    They foresaw many things. And they don't care - because HK has outlived its usefulness. The "dire financial consequences" such as it was already had happened when it became too much of a political risk for companies to remain. Nor have you considered the possibility that the CCP is completely fine with wrecking HK so that they can essentially repurchase it for the cheap.

    Control is the single greatest motivator of the CCP. An HK that was out of control is essentially useless to them, and an active liability. Whatever "PR" consequences(which China really doesn't care much about, especially from innately hostile actors), are much less muted than tolerating an active liability.


    Xi looks at HK, and has the intelligence to grasp the long term impact of the PRC breaking another economy and impoverishing the Han Chinese of Taiwan.
     
    Ultimately, if Taiwan is not cooperative, it is also a liability and if it is heavily populated by Han Chinese, it is in fact seen as an insufferable insult that they would choose to align themselves with ancient enemies such as the Japanese: traitors. The long-term impact of PRC unifying Taiwan is, within Chinese terms and this might be unfortunate, but it would be the summation of the Mandate of Heaven for quite some time. Its a great accomplishment, and great accomplishments are how the Mandate is perceived.

    Rather than idly speculate, try to read up on Chinese history and you'll see that the habit of endless deathmatches in order to have a single China is the norm.

    If Xi orders the conquest of Tiawan, he will personally own 100% of the downside. We all see that you believe Xi is an utter moron, willing to make obvious and easily avoidable errors.
     

    The most easily avoided error is to ignore anything that someone like you would say.

    But for starters, Xi is not some sort of Emperor. He has outsized impact but Chinese politics also has multiple factions and he ultimately have to be responsive to the population(to which a good percentage are ultranationalists), and figures such as Zhao Lijian and "wolf warrior" diplomacy are great examples of the increasing prominence of -much more aggressive- politicians. Even top members of the politburo are more "revisionist" and aggressive than he is, and he owns all of their decisions and choices.


    As the history you either do not know or cannot understand shows, that type of air superiority is of limited value when dealing with dispersed light infantry in hostile terrain.
     
    That does not matter.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Vietnamese_conflicts,_1979%E2%80%931991

    China is completely willing to fight an war of essentially no specific gain, because in any trade of material versus a less industrialized country, China comes out much stronger at the end via attrition. Knockout blows are unnecessary so as long as strategic advantage is realized.

    Replies: @utu, @animalogic, @A123, @Not Only Wrathful, @Astuteobservor II

    The US should seriously consider giving guarantees for Taiwan sovereignty.

    https://www.unz.com/pbuchanan/jinping-takes-up-the-us-challenge/#comment-3922573
    If the US is really going to contest and stop China, Taiwan is the place where to draw the line in the sand. The legal case for Taiwan sovereignty and independence from China within the international law is much more clear cut than that for Hong Kong. If the will of the Taiwanese who in majority do not have close historical links to China is to seek the independence then the US should help them. Actually it is the US that should give Taiwan guarantees that it will use all its power to protect the independence of Taiwan so Taiwan can proceed.

    China does not need to have Taiwan just like the US does not need to have Puerto Rico or Hawaii. If Puerto Rico or Hawaii decided to secede I would support any country, including China, that would help them to accomplish it. For similar reason I will support the US helping Taiwan achieve its independence.

    From the point of view of the rest of the world that consists of small countries and small nations neither China nor America are good guys or bad guys. They are powers that small nations and countries have to put up with. While America did some good in the world it also did a lot of evil. China has not been a power long enough yet in the modern era to demonstrate its full capacity for good and evil but nobody has any illusions that given a chance it won’t be much better than America.

    • Troll: d dan, Showmethereal
    • Replies: @DB Cooper
    @utu

    Better yet the US should help Taiwan (aka Republic of China) return back to the mainland and help Republic of China reincorporate outer Mongolia (present day Mongolia) and South Tibet back into the Republic of China. Officially the Republic of China has never concedes outer Mongolia and has never recognized India's land grabbing of South Tibet and still regards outer Mongolia and South Tibet part of the Republic of China. In fact in 1987 when India made South Tibet a state and renamed it to the so called Arunachal Pradesh the government of Taiwan put out a statement vehemently denouncing India's travesty and vowed never of recognizing the so called Arunachal Pradesh as part of India.

    FYI Outer Mongolia was carved out from China because Mao was colluding with the Soviet Union and when Mao came to power he gifted outer Mongolia to his patron the Soviet Union as a Soviet satellite.

    South Tibet was invaded and annexed by India in 1951.

    Here is the map of the Republic of China (aka Taiwan)

    https://www.digitalcommonwealth.org/search/commonwealth:x633f939c

    Replies: @d dan, @Showmethereal

    , @d dan
    @utu

    And here is my reply trashing every points of your post:

    https://www.unz.com/pbuchanan/jinping-takes-up-the-us-challenge/#comment-3922873

    , @soyuz
    @utu


    China does not need to have Taiwan just like the US does not need to have Puerto Rico or Hawaii. If Puerto Rico or Hawaii decided to secede I would support any country, including China, that would help them to accomplish it. For similar reason I will support the US helping Taiwan achieve its independence.
     
    I think a better analogy is to Cuba than Puerto Rico or Hawaii. Even geographically, the Taiwan Strait separating Taiwan from China is about the same as the distance between Cuba and Florida.

    Cuba is regarded as a "rogue" regime by the US, just like Taiwan is by the PRC. Cuba and Taiwan's independence have been regarded as politically and ideologically illegitimate by Washington and Beijing. And they've been backed by adversaries, the USSR during the Cold War and the US in Taiwan.
    , @A123
    @utu


    The US should seriously consider giving guarantees for Taiwan sovereignty.
     
    There is 0% motivation for Trump to raise those stakes. He is pulling back on U.S. Force deployments.

    More importantly, Trump does not want to distract U.S. unparalleled success over China in other areas. He is handing Xi defeat after defeat after defeat on the trade front. For example:

    -- USCMA -- reducing the permitted % of Chinese auto parts.
    -- Phase 1 of the China-US bilateral negotiations.
    -- Made in USA requirements for medical goods (PPE), pharmaceuticals, etc.

    The next back breaking blow against Red Chinese exploitation is already in the way and Xi is helpless to stop it: (1)

    U.S. Trade Representative Robert Lighthizer is testifying [today] at 10:00am to the House Ways and Means committee; later in the afternoon Ambassador Lighthizer will testify before the Senate Finance Committee.

    The New York Times has received an advance copy of USTR Lighthizer’s opening statement, and the liberal publication is apoplectic the Trump administration plans to outline an even more aggressive stance toward the World Trade Organization (WTO). ...

    One method to approach tariff inequality would be for the U.S. to lower the import value threshold for non-tariff exemptions. Currently the U.S. does not apply import duties to any product valued under $800. This is a great benefit to China, southeast Asia, and U.S. on-line retailers such as ebay and Amazon; however, the zero tariff threshold hurts U.S. manufacturers because China and other nations do not reciprocate.

    It is anticipated that USTR Lighthizer will inform congress the U.S. will lower that import threshold to match the same value level applied by other nations.
     
    China's inefficient State Owned Enterprises are incapable of competing on fair terms. Exploitation is integral to their business model. Without it, they are in deep trouble.

    PEACE 😇
    _______

    (1) https://theconservativetreehouse.com/2020/06/16/ustr-lighthizer-plans-to-outline-renewed-demand-for-international-tariff-reciprocity/

    Replies: @Escher, @eastkekistaniisawhiteguy

    , @reiner Tor
    @utu

    This would be a high reward strategy, but it would also carry very high risks. Obviously China would have to choose between accepting a humiliating defeat (which could easily lead to Xi being removed from power) or starting a world war. It’s difficult to tell which he would choose.

    Replies: @d dan

    , @Astuteobservor II
    @utu

    That is the same as declaring war with China.

    You really should know what you are asking for before you asked it.

    Replies: @d dan

  43. This is unlikely to snowball into a shooting war.
    Both sides are pulling back and no cabinet level official in either country has made any hothead statement.

    What happened is that basically two platoons without direct senior officer supervision went at each other with clubs and other similar improvised implements.No knives and certainly no guns were used.

    Senior officers met immediately and have suspended all patrolling and have accelerated disengagement.

    This will result is greater alignment of India with the US security setup in Asia though we will not become a treaty ally.

    I think there is some internal power play in China resulting in China putting up an aggressive posture atleast a decade before facts on the ground warrant it.

    Even if there is a shooting war(non nuclear) which China wins it will not lead to structural failure of India or loss of core territories,it will enable Modi&Co the pretext to declare an emergency liquidate the opposition and sign up to the US alliance in Asia.India will likely be given much greater market and technology access by the us eu japan and likely develop into a serious long term enemy with a GDP of around 40% of the PRC by 2045.

    How does China benefit from this?

    Would it not be better from the Chinese POV to bide it’s time for another 10-15 years and then impose its will on all its neighbours when the US is in no position to intervene and its relative strength makes resistance futile.

    • Agree: Anatoly Karlin
    • Replies: @DB Cooper
    @Vishnugupta

    China has no desire to impose its will on its neighbors. In an ideal world of the Chinese, China will be surrounded by friendly prosperous countries. This is very different than India. In an ideal world of the Indians, India will be surrounded by weak and poor countries which India can imposes its will at whims. And this is how India treats Nepal, Bhutan, Sikkim, Sri Lanka...etc. This is why in the lexicon of Indian foreign policy circles it always talk about keeping its smaller neighbors off balance. And this is why India is hated by its smaller neighbors.

    Replies: @Vishnugupta, @reiner Tor

    , @Tor597
    @Vishnugupta

    I agree with most of what you said.

    But I doubt being aligned with America will have much advantage going forward. America is a declining empire and I think Covid and BLM is going to finish us off.

    Getting more access to the American market won't mean much if the Ametican market is no longer the leading consumer market.

    Besides, the main thing America needs from India is on the service side and that has already peaked out. I don't see India capable enough to manufacture goods at large like China, Vietnam, or Mexico can.

    Do you really think white families from the west would want to relocate to India, even for a short business trip? I've been to India with even semi attractive white women and they did not feel safe at all around leering Indians all looking at them.

    , @Showmethereal
    @Vishnugupta

    India is already entering arms agreements with the US - which basically smacks Russia in the face. It also just signed agreements with Australia. There is no way the 5 Eyes will let China just keep climbing up the ladder without trying to impede them. They would have no quallms in India spilling its blood to accomplish that purpose either. India should realize that from British colonialism days.
    I hope both sides play it cool. In 1962 - a poor China who had beef with both the US and the Soviets - still went ahead and fought India. There is no need for either side to tempt fate again. Im not certain why the Indian media lives to beat the drum beat.
    Maybe if both sides let the soldiers have their wives or girlfriends come visit them on weekends the testosterone can have a better outlet than pummeling each other.

    , @Meena
    @Vishnugupta

    will enable Modi&Co the pretext to declare an emergency liquidate the opposition and sign up to the US alliance in Asia.”

    Isn’t India too diverse to allow for emergency ? Indira Gandhi cant achieve in those days without mass communication that Indians have today . Regional parties are more restive aggressive and equally corrupt . They will fight to the last blood .

    India can join the US camp now There is no other discernible camp and no one in opposition has any concept what the camp means given the fact that all of them including Communist are inside the US club either directly or indirectly . It is possibly correct to say India is already in the camp .

    USA cant force its companies to go anywhere Companies decide to go and USA facilitates the journey

    It was not Modi gov’s failure to attract the business fleeing from China . Companies did not find the level of skill and infrastructure in India alluring enough to relocate .

  44. DB Cooper says:
    June 17, 2020 at 5:17 am GMT • 200 Words   
    @utu
    @Daniel Chieh

    The US should seriously consider giving guarantees for Taiwan sovereignty.


    https://www.unz.com/pbuchanan/jinping-takes-up-the-us-challenge/#comment-3922573
    If the US is really going to contest and stop China, Taiwan is the place where to draw the line in the sand. The legal case for Taiwan sovereignty and independence from China within the international law is much more clear cut than that for Hong Kong. If the will of the Taiwanese who in majority do not have close historical links to China is to seek the independence then the US should help them. Actually it is the US that should give Taiwan guarantees that it will use all its power to protect the independence of Taiwan so Taiwan can proceed.

    China does not need to have Taiwan just like the US does not need to have Puerto Rico or Hawaii. If Puerto Rico or Hawaii decided to secede I would support any country, including China, that would help them to accomplish it. For similar reason I will support the US helping Taiwan achieve its independence.

    From the point of view of the rest of the world that consists of small countries and small nations neither China nor America are good guys or bad guys. They are powers that small nations and countries have to put up with. While America did some good in the world it also did a lot of evil. China has not been a power long enough yet in the modern era to demonstrate its full capacity for good and evil but nobody has any illusions that given a chance it won’t be much better than America.
     

    Replies: @DB Cooper, @d dan, @soyuz, @A123, @reiner Tor, @Astuteobservor II

    Better yet the US should help Taiwan (aka Republic of China) return back to the mainland and help Republic of China reincorporate outer Mongolia (present day Mongolia) and South Tibet back into the Republic of China. Officially the Republic of China has never concedes outer Mongolia and has never recognized India’s land grabbing of South Tibet and still regards outer Mongolia and South Tibet part of the Republic of China. In fact in 1987 when India made South Tibet a state and renamed it to the so called Arunachal Pradesh the government of Taiwan put out a statement vehemently denouncing India’s travesty and vowed never of recognizing the so called Arunachal Pradesh as part of India.

    FYI Outer Mongolia was carved out from China because Mao was colluding with the Soviet Union and when Mao came to power he gifted outer Mongolia to his patron the Soviet Union as a Soviet satellite.

    South Tibet was invaded and annexed by India in 1951.

    Here is the map of the Republic of China (aka Taiwan)

    https://www.digitalcommonwealth.org/search/commonwealth:x633f939c

    • Replies: @d dan
    @DB Cooper


    "Better yet the US should help Taiwan (aka Republic of China) return back to the mainland and help Republic of China reincorporate outer Mongolia (present day Mongolia) and South Tibet back into the Republic of China. ..."

     

    Whatever your opinion of the pros and cons of ROC vs PRC (and that is not an issue I want to debate), your statement of asking US to help ROC return back to mainland (and even getting back Mongolia & South Tibet) sounds like a delusion of epic grandeur that will make the "utu" sounds like a pragmatic "realist".

    Replies: @DB Cooper

    , @Showmethereal
    @DB Cooper

    I am no defender of Mao - but in reality the ceding of Outer Mongolia was a direct betrayal of Chiang Kai Shek by the US who negotiated with Stalin during WW2. Mao had no sway... Though yes he did recognize it when he did get to power (and Outer Manchuria).

  45. China has already won against India. China is a bustling, modern, insanely productive nation that is about to score top spot in scientific research.

    India is a craphole full of IQ 82 peasants whose main goal in life is to scam their way into a green card.

    The military part is irrelevant given that they are both nuclear powers.

    Talked to a Chinese coworker who was sent to India on a work assignment. He told me with horror in his eyes about the sanitation and how primitive it was. Case closed.

    • LOL: Ano4
  46. DB Cooper says:
    June 17, 2020 at 5:30 am GMT • 100 Words   
    @Vishnugupta
    This is unlikely to snowball into a shooting war.
    Both sides are pulling back and no cabinet level official in either country has made any hothead statement.

    What happened is that basically two platoons without direct senior officer supervision went at each other with clubs and other similar improvised implements.No knives and certainly no guns were used.

    Senior officers met immediately and have suspended all patrolling and have accelerated disengagement.

    This will result is greater alignment of India with the US security setup in Asia though we will not become a treaty ally.

    I think there is some internal power play in China resulting in China putting up an aggressive posture atleast a decade before facts on the ground warrant it.

    Even if there is a shooting war(non nuclear) which China wins it will not lead to structural failure of India or loss of core territories,it will enable Modi&Co the pretext to declare an emergency liquidate the opposition and sign up to the US alliance in Asia.India will likely be given much greater market and technology access by the us eu japan and likely develop into a serious long term enemy with a GDP of around 40% of the PRC by 2045.

    How does China benefit from this?

    Would it not be better from the Chinese POV to bide it's time for another 10-15 years and then impose its will on all its neighbours when the US is in no position to intervene and its relative strength makes resistance futile.

    Replies: @DB Cooper, @Tor597, @Showmethereal, @Meena

    China has no desire to impose its will on its neighbors. In an ideal world of the Chinese, China will be surrounded by friendly prosperous countries. This is very different than India. In an ideal world of the Indians, India will be surrounded by weak and poor countries which India can imposes its will at whims. And this is how India treats Nepal, Bhutan, Sikkim, Sri Lanka…etc. This is why in the lexicon of Indian foreign policy circles it always talk about keeping its smaller neighbors off balance. And this is why India is hated by its smaller neighbors.

    • Agree: Showmethereal
    • Replies: @Vishnugupta
    @DB Cooper

    China has territorial disputes with India,Vietnam,Philippines,Malaysia among others.

    You openly state that Mongolia should cease to exist as an independent country and be incorporated into China.

    I am not even going to mention Taiwan and HK.

    Most people on this blog are aware of these facts and not exactly stupid so I don't know what your objective is.

    Perhaps certain Pakistani blogs will be more receptive to your China is a saintly country which has never done anything wrong and only wants peace and prosperity for all line of thought.

    , @reiner Tor
    @DB Cooper

    It’s not like China is liked by its neighbors.

    Replies: @DB Cooper

  47. @Mr. XYZ
    @Daniel Chieh

    I believe that Tawang might be important for Tibetans for spiritual reasons, though.

    Replies: @Mr. XYZ

    Spiritual reasons and religious reasons, to be more specific.

  48. Exile says:
    June 17, 2020 at 5:47 am GMT • 100 Words   
    @The Wild Geese Howard
    Kim Yo Jong, the cutest Stalinist dictator, is getting ready to kick ass in the DMZ:

    https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/north-korea-threatens-invade-border-area-after-blowing-de-facto-embassy

    Looks like Corona-chan has competition for the most dangerous female of 2020.

    More seriously, this is push is motivated by China to see how the US responds and to assess the gayed up state of the US Army.

    Replies: @Exile

    Given the absolutely shambolic state of Trump at this point, I don’t see any country other than Israel making any moves that might help him galvanize support for four more years of incoherence and constant turnover – and even some of Israel’s factions have problems with him.

    It’s in no one’s interests to deal with a Chimerica that changes policies in unpredictable and arbitrary Trumpian fashion day-to-day rather than election-to-election.

    China & Russia both know how to play the long game and know that time is ultimately on their side. Israel controls both U.S. parties and all significant U.S. politicians so they aren’t worried about any single politician being indispensable.

    China knows Tiawan will be theirs within a generation. The U.S will not fight China over this when America’s bluff is finally called (nor should it, FWIW).

    India’s a darling of the GOP but those bridges are just starting to be built and the Republican Party is still just weak kabuki opposition at this point.

  49. @DB Cooper
    @Vishnugupta

    China has no desire to impose its will on its neighbors. In an ideal world of the Chinese, China will be surrounded by friendly prosperous countries. This is very different than India. In an ideal world of the Indians, India will be surrounded by weak and poor countries which India can imposes its will at whims. And this is how India treats Nepal, Bhutan, Sikkim, Sri Lanka...etc. This is why in the lexicon of Indian foreign policy circles it always talk about keeping its smaller neighbors off balance. And this is why India is hated by its smaller neighbors.

    Replies: @Vishnugupta, @reiner Tor

    China has territorial disputes with India,Vietnam,Philippines,Malaysia among others.

    You openly state that Mongolia should cease to exist as an independent country and be incorporated into China.

    I am not even going to mention Taiwan and HK.

    Most people on this blog are aware of these facts and not exactly stupid so I don’t know what your objective is.

    Perhaps certain Pakistani blogs will be more receptive to your China is a saintly country which has never done anything wrong and only wants peace and prosperity for all line of thought.

  50. DB Cooper says:
    June 17, 2020 at 6:06 am GMT • 200 Words   

    “You openly state that Mongolia should cease to exist as an independent country and be incorporated into China.”

    Taiwan (aka Republic of China) has never recognized outer Mongolia’s independence. This is a fact. So it is reincorporated back into China. Outer Mongolia was part of China. It was carved out from China under the instigation of the Soviet Union (much like later day US was trying to carve out Tibet). The Nationalist government has never recognized outer Mongolia’s indepedence. Historically the Nationalist government has a department called the Ministry of Mongolia and Tibetan affairs and to my knowledge the Nationalist government has never officially disband the Ministry.

    China does not have land border dispute with Vietnam, only martime dispute.

    “I am not even going to mention Taiwan and HK.”

    Why not? Hong Kong is infested with Indians, which is absolutely disgusting. And as far as Taiwan is concerned India is still occupying a piece of the territory of the Republic of China (aka Taiwan).

    • Replies: @Vishnugupta
    @DB Cooper

    I said territorial disputes..not land border dispute.

    China has territorial disputes with India, Vietnam, Malaysia,Indonesia,Japan among others.

    Just like you claim all of independent UN recognized country of Mongolia as chinese territory there are other nutcase Chinese nationalists who claim Vladivostok and parts of Siberia(Qing Dynasty era historic claim).

    Therefore your assertion that India has problems with most of its neighbours but China does not stands disproved.No amount of screeching on your part will change this fact.

    Speaking of things disgusting have you started a nationwide campaign against eating bats,dogs,cats,cockroaches and other similar delicacies yet?

    (Apologies to most Chinese commenters reading this for the last statement but this one has been begging to be shown a mirror for quite some time now)

    Replies: @Tor597

  51. @Jatt Arya
    @DB Cooper

    Only if they re-convert||
    China is doing this to offset Indian moves in POK & Pak is moving into Gilgit-Baltistan||

    http://delhidefencereview.com/2017/08/13/did-indian-army-troops-save-chinese-troops-in-sudan/

    Troop quality is on Indian side, lot of high altitude experience.
    Already lakhs of acclimatized men||

    62 was due to Nehru not funding the army, 303s don't do well vs AKs.
    Later skirmishes have been won by India||
    China faces the issue of taking off at a higher altitude and lack of native pop in Army||

    @not raul

    Every time you link a BBC article about India v Pak (known pro-Muslim bias)
    A dozen anglo girls are raped in the cellars||

    I would bet 1.5 to 1 in favor of China mostly because of Pak, Nepal & Intl (white) actors seeking to take down Modi||
    Babus are also cowards & Hindus want peace||

    Replies: @DB Cooper, @Jatt Arya, @Tor597, @Meena

    India probably has the worst troop quality in the world mate.

    No offense to you, but I can’t think of a country India could conquer unless it was another country full of Indians.

    • Replies: @DB Cooper
    @Tor597

    Not at all. India was able to conquer its small neighbors by overwhelming its tiny neighbors with hordes of filthy hungry rapey smelly Hindoo dumb fuck. This is how Sikkim got annexed.

    http://nepalitimes.com/issue/35/Nation/9621#.UohjPHQo6LA
    http://www.passblue.com/2015/07/22/a-small-himalayan-kingdom-remembers-its-lost-independence/
    http://www.amazon.com/Smash-Grab-Annexation-Sunanda-Datta-Ray/dp/9383260386
    http://asia.nikkei.com/Politics-Economy/International-Relations/Indian-hegemonism-drags-Himalayan-kingdom-into-oblivion
    http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/annexation-of-sikkim-by-india-was-not-legal-wangchuk-namgyal/1/391498.html

    And this is why India rejected Bhutan's proposal to build a highway in the Southern part of Bhutan a few years ago because the highway will purportedly enable Bhutan to better safeguard its southern border against hordes coming from the land of the rape and India can't have that.

    , @Amerimutt Golems
    @Tor597



    India probably has the worst troop quality in the world mate.

    No offense to you, but I can’t think of a country India could conquer unless it was another country full of Indians.

     

    India isn't even a real country but rather a collection of different groups dominated by Hindus.

    In the event of full hostilities China can exploit the separatist movements as well as enmity with Pakis.

    Replies: @Europe Europa

  52. @DB Cooper
    "You openly state that Mongolia should cease to exist as an independent country and be incorporated into China."

    Taiwan (aka Republic of China) has never recognized outer Mongolia's independence. This is a fact. So it is reincorporated back into China. Outer Mongolia was part of China. It was carved out from China under the instigation of the Soviet Union (much like later day US was trying to carve out Tibet). The Nationalist government has never recognized outer Mongolia's indepedence. Historically the Nationalist government has a department called the Ministry of Mongolia and Tibetan affairs and to my knowledge the Nationalist government has never officially disband the Ministry.

    China does not have land border dispute with Vietnam, only martime dispute.

    "I am not even going to mention Taiwan and HK."

    Why not? Hong Kong is infested with Indians, which is absolutely disgusting. And as far as Taiwan is concerned India is still occupying a piece of the territory of the Republic of China (aka Taiwan).

    Replies: @Vishnugupta

    I said territorial disputes..not land border dispute.

    China has territorial disputes with India, Vietnam, Malaysia,Indonesia,Japan among others.

    Just like you claim all of independent UN recognized country of Mongolia as chinese territory there are other nutcase Chinese nationalists who claim Vladivostok and parts of Siberia(Qing Dynasty era historic claim).

    Therefore your assertion that India has problems with most of its neighbours but China does not stands disproved.No amount of screeching on your part will change this fact.

    Speaking of things disgusting have you started a nationwide campaign against eating bats,dogs,cats,cockroaches and other similar delicacies yet?

    (Apologies to most Chinese commenters reading this for the last statement but this one has been begging to be shown a mirror for quite some time now)

    • Troll: d dan
    • Replies: @Tor597
    @Vishnugupta

    I am against China eating dogs and cats, but are you really in a position to call out others for being gross when your entire country sickens the rest of the world?

    So many clips I can bring up, but everything from not being able to shit in a toilet to drinking cow urine.

    Gimme a break. You hindu nationals are hard to tolerate.

    Replies: @Vishnugupta

  53. Bad news boys.
    http://www.leta.lv/eng/defence_matters_eng/defence_matters_eng/news/1A95179C-13B3-4C27-A841-B082E614327E/

    China vs American Empire battle for unipolar supremacy will begin within 7 or 8 years.

  54. d dan says:
    June 17, 2020 at 6:32 am GMT • 100 Words   
    @DB Cooper
    @utu

    Better yet the US should help Taiwan (aka Republic of China) return back to the mainland and help Republic of China reincorporate outer Mongolia (present day Mongolia) and South Tibet back into the Republic of China. Officially the Republic of China has never concedes outer Mongolia and has never recognized India's land grabbing of South Tibet and still regards outer Mongolia and South Tibet part of the Republic of China. In fact in 1987 when India made South Tibet a state and renamed it to the so called Arunachal Pradesh the government of Taiwan put out a statement vehemently denouncing India's travesty and vowed never of recognizing the so called Arunachal Pradesh as part of India.

    FYI Outer Mongolia was carved out from China because Mao was colluding with the Soviet Union and when Mao came to power he gifted outer Mongolia to his patron the Soviet Union as a Soviet satellite.

    South Tibet was invaded and annexed by India in 1951.

    Here is the map of the Republic of China (aka Taiwan)

    https://www.digitalcommonwealth.org/search/commonwealth:x633f939c

    Replies: @d dan, @Showmethereal

    “Better yet the US should help Taiwan (aka Republic of China) return back to the mainland and help Republic of China reincorporate outer Mongolia (present day Mongolia) and South Tibet back into the Republic of China. …”

    Whatever your opinion of the pros and cons of ROC vs PRC (and that is not an issue I want to debate), your statement of asking US to help ROC return back to mainland (and even getting back Mongolia & South Tibet) sounds like a delusion of epic grandeur that will make the “utu” sounds like a pragmatic “realist”.

    • Agree: Daniel Chieh
    • Replies: @DB Cooper
    @d dan

    The PRC should do it too but it is harder for PRC to do it because it is the PRC which concedes outer Mongolia. The ROC never did. Once you concede it is harder to take it back because if you do you are legally invading another independent country. The ROC doesn't have this problem and in fact has every right to safe guard its territory and prevent it from being carved out and hence has every right to reincorporate outer Mongolia back to its territory if it is in control of the mainland. It is an unimpeachable act under the law of the United Nations.

    In the case of South Tibet neither the PRC nor the ROC has ever recognizes it to be part of India. Hence the PRC should, at a time of its own choosing, retake South Tibet and kick the Indian invaders out of the Chinese territory. I am sure when the PRC kick the Indians out of South Tibet the people in South Tibet will first and foremost have a collective big sigh of relief and Taiwan will be cheering on the side too. This is one of the things both sides of the strait can agree on and this is why I have been advocating this for a long time because it will create an atmosphere that is conducive to reunification.

    For your information the Nationalist government has been sending representations after representations first to the British Raj and later to India (after August 1947) of its repeated incursion into Chinese territory. In fact one of the last act of the Nationalist government before it retreated to Taiwan is to send yet another diplomatic protest to India of its incursion. India was one of the first countries to recognize the PRC as the government of China and in one full stroke shuts out the Nationalist government for good. But even that when India invaded and annexed Tawang in 1951 the Nationalist government (then in Taiwan) was vehemently denouncing India's travesty.

    Replies: @d dan

  55. DB Cooper says:
    June 17, 2020 at 6:33 am GMT • 100 Words   
    @Tor597
    @Jatt Arya

    India probably has the worst troop quality in the world mate.

    No offense to you, but I can't think of a country India could conquer unless it was another country full of Indians.

    Replies: @DB Cooper, @Amerimutt Golems

    Not at all. India was able to conquer its small neighbors by overwhelming its tiny neighbors with hordes of filthy hungry rapey smelly Hindoo dumb fuck. This is how Sikkim got annexed.

    http://nepalitimes.com/issue/35/Nation/9621#.UohjPHQo6LA
    http://www.passblue.com/2015/07/22/a-small-himalayan-kingdom-remembers-its-lost-independence/

    http://asia.nikkei.com/Politics-Economy/International-Relations/Indian-hegemonism-drags-Himalayan-kingdom-into-oblivion
    http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/annexation-of-sikkim-by-india-was-not-legal-wangchuk-namgyal/1/391498.html

    And this is why India rejected Bhutan’s proposal to build a highway in the Southern part of Bhutan a few years ago because the highway will purportedly enable Bhutan to better safeguard its southern border against hordes coming from the land of the rape and India can’t have that.

  56. I’m on Team India for this one, even though Modi & his fanbois are retards. China can fuck off.

  57. Tor597 says:
    June 17, 2020 at 6:36 am GMT • 100 Words   
    @Vishnugupta
    This is unlikely to snowball into a shooting war.
    Both sides are pulling back and no cabinet level official in either country has made any hothead statement.

    What happened is that basically two platoons without direct senior officer supervision went at each other with clubs and other similar improvised implements.No knives and certainly no guns were used.

    Senior officers met immediately and have suspended all patrolling and have accelerated disengagement.

    This will result is greater alignment of India with the US security setup in Asia though we will not become a treaty ally.

    I think there is some internal power play in China resulting in China putting up an aggressive posture atleast a decade before facts on the ground warrant it.

    Even if there is a shooting war(non nuclear) which China wins it will not lead to structural failure of India or loss of core territories,it will enable Modi&Co the pretext to declare an emergency liquidate the opposition and sign up to the US alliance in Asia.India will likely be given much greater market and technology access by the us eu japan and likely develop into a serious long term enemy with a GDP of around 40% of the PRC by 2045.

    How does China benefit from this?

    Would it not be better from the Chinese POV to bide it's time for another 10-15 years and then impose its will on all its neighbours when the US is in no position to intervene and its relative strength makes resistance futile.

    Replies: @DB Cooper, @Tor597, @Showmethereal, @Meena

    I agree with most of what you said.

    But I doubt being aligned with America will have much advantage going forward. America is a declining empire and I think Covid and BLM is going to finish us off.

    Getting more access to the American market won’t mean much if the Ametican market is no longer the leading consumer market.

    Besides, the main thing America needs from India is on the service side and that has already peaked out. I don’t see India capable enough to manufacture goods at large like China, Vietnam, or Mexico can.

    Do you really think white families from the west would want to relocate to India, even for a short business trip? I’ve been to India with even semi attractive white women and they did not feel safe at all around leering Indians all looking at them.

    • Agree: Escher
  58. @utu
    @Daniel Chieh

    The US should seriously consider giving guarantees for Taiwan sovereignty.


    https://www.unz.com/pbuchanan/jinping-takes-up-the-us-challenge/#comment-3922573
    If the US is really going to contest and stop China, Taiwan is the place where to draw the line in the sand. The legal case for Taiwan sovereignty and independence from China within the international law is much more clear cut than that for Hong Kong. If the will of the Taiwanese who in majority do not have close historical links to China is to seek the independence then the US should help them. Actually it is the US that should give Taiwan guarantees that it will use all its power to protect the independence of Taiwan so Taiwan can proceed.

    China does not need to have Taiwan just like the US does not need to have Puerto Rico or Hawaii. If Puerto Rico or Hawaii decided to secede I would support any country, including China, that would help them to accomplish it. For similar reason I will support the US helping Taiwan achieve its independence.

    From the point of view of the rest of the world that consists of small countries and small nations neither China nor America are good guys or bad guys. They are powers that small nations and countries have to put up with. While America did some good in the world it also did a lot of evil. China has not been a power long enough yet in the modern era to demonstrate its full capacity for good and evil but nobody has any illusions that given a chance it won’t be much better than America.
     

    Replies: @DB Cooper, @d dan, @soyuz, @A123, @reiner Tor, @Astuteobservor II

    And here is my reply trashing every points of your post:

    https://www.unz.com/pbuchanan/jinping-takes-up-the-us-challenge/#comment-3922873

  59. @DB Cooper
    @Daniel Chieh

    China should absolutely take back South Tibet including Tawang, may be not today or tomorrow but eventually. India has no business there. The locals hate the Indians, and for good reasons and India knows it and this is the reason AFSPA is imposed there. Tawang is very accessible, it is the birthplace of the Sixth Dalai Lama and home to a four hundred years old Tibetan monastery. Historically it is the last major frontier town of historic Tibet before transitioning into the tribal area south side of the Himalayans and onto the Indian plains.

    Replies: @DB Cooper, @neutral, @Grahamsno(G64)

    How about neither India or China get it, but rather it goes to an independent Tibet.

    • Replies: @Showmethereal
    @neutral

    Why would China give it up? Tibet was part of China longer than the US has been a country. China's problem was they gave the region too much autonomy. So Tibetans are taught Mandarin now.... Just like any normal country. Are Catalans deserving of their own country? What about Venetians and Genoans? Hawaiians? Okinawans??? How about we have an even 1000 countries?

    Replies: @AnonFromTN, @Philip Owen

  60. DB Cooper says:
    June 17, 2020 at 6:56 am GMT • 300 Words   
    @d dan
    @DB Cooper


    "Better yet the US should help Taiwan (aka Republic of China) return back to the mainland and help Republic of China reincorporate outer Mongolia (present day Mongolia) and South Tibet back into the Republic of China. ..."

     

    Whatever your opinion of the pros and cons of ROC vs PRC (and that is not an issue I want to debate), your statement of asking US to help ROC return back to mainland (and even getting back Mongolia & South Tibet) sounds like a delusion of epic grandeur that will make the "utu" sounds like a pragmatic "realist".

    Replies: @DB Cooper

    The PRC should do it too but it is harder for PRC to do it because it is the PRC which concedes outer Mongolia. The ROC never did. Once you concede it is harder to take it back because if you do you are legally invading another independent country. The ROC doesn’t have this problem and in fact has every right to safe guard its territory and prevent it from being carved out and hence has every right to reincorporate outer Mongolia back to its territory if it is in control of the mainland. It is an unimpeachable act under the law of the United Nations.

    In the case of South Tibet neither the PRC nor the ROC has ever recognizes it to be part of India. Hence the PRC should, at a time of its own choosing, retake South Tibet and kick the Indian invaders out of the Chinese territory. I am sure when the PRC kick the Indians out of South Tibet the people in South Tibet will first and foremost have a collective big sigh of relief and Taiwan will be cheering on the side too. This is one of the things both sides of the strait can agree on and this is why I have been advocating this for a long time because it will create an atmosphere that is conducive to reunification.

    For your information the Nationalist government has been sending representations after representations first to the British Raj and later to India (after August 1947) of its repeated incursion into Chinese territory. In fact one of the last act of the Nationalist government before it retreated to Taiwan is to send yet another diplomatic protest to India of its incursion. India was one of the first countries to recognize the PRC as the government of China and in one full stroke shuts out the Nationalist government for good. But even that when India invaded and annexed Tawang in 1951 the Nationalist government (then in Taiwan) was vehemently denouncing India’s travesty.

    • Replies: @d dan
    @DB Cooper


    "The PRC should do it too but it is harder for PRC to do it..."
     
    As I said, whatever the merits of PRC vs ROC, that is not the point of debate. It is the part of asking "US to help" that is showing your delusion. You are 与虎谋皮, if you think US has any interests, motivation, capability or intention of making a strong and unified China out of ROC.

    Replies: @DB Cooper

  61. Well I don’t see why relocation of white families is required.We have plenty of foreigners in India.I assume they are here because the money they earn justifies them working here.

    From what expats I interact with in Gurgaon (suburb of Delhi) tell me us as long as you stick to the right places there are no serious problems though yes Indians do stare at them more.And before this lockdown would go out for drinks with them every few weeks so this is not some PC version of facts I’m getting.One korean expat got his kids here because IB schools are so much cheaper in India.

    India so far has competitive and relatively large scale manufacturing capabilities in Pharma,automobiles and auto components and petrochemicals.Other sectors are lagging behind other emerging markets but some notable recent successes include smartphone manufacturing (Samsung recently opened what is globally its largest assembly plant in India recently)…

    • Replies: @Swarthy Greek
    @Vishnugupta

    Assembly work, whether in electronics or the automotive sector is a low added value business. India just can't into high-tech and indigenous R&D, despite having a massive domestic market and being very protectionist. Just look at the DRDO: the Arjun tank, Tejas fighter, indigenous nuclear submarine... All these R&D projects have been massive failures despite getting plenty of funding commitments and foreign help. India will never match China economically or militarily, i even doubt it will catch-up to a Brazilified United States.

    Replies: @Znzn, @Vishnugupta

    , @Tor597
    @Vishnugupta

    Its not about relocating to India. Its more about having to travel several times a year there, and being able to bring your family along.

    I have done this several times in China for business and never felt like my family was unsafe. But there is no way in hell I would bring them to India.

    You say certain parts are safe. That is true about Detroit and Africa as well. Certain multinationals like Samsung can send their employees there and they will get 4 star hotels.

    But small and medium sized businesses are not going to go to India to do business.

    As far as the industries you mentioned, Mexico has these as well and so does Vietnam. Both these countries are far better alternatives than India.

  62. Well I don’t see why relocation of white families is required.We have plenty of foreigners in India.I assume they are here because the money they earn justifies them working here.

    From what expats I interact with in Gurgaon (suburb of Delhi) tell me us as long as you stick to the right places there are no serious problems though yes Indians do stare at them more.And before this lockdown would go out for drinks with them every few weeks so this is not some PC version of facts I’m getting.One korean expat got his kids here because IB schools are so much cheaper in India.

    India so far has competitive and relatively large scale manufacturing capabilities in Pharma,automobiles and auto components and petrochemicals.Other sectors are lagging behind other emerging markets but some notable recent successes include smartphone manufacturing (Samsung recently opened what is globally its largest assembly plant in India recently)…

  63. d dan says:
    June 17, 2020 at 7:07 am GMT • 100 Words   
    @DB Cooper
    @d dan

    The PRC should do it too but it is harder for PRC to do it because it is the PRC which concedes outer Mongolia. The ROC never did. Once you concede it is harder to take it back because if you do you are legally invading another independent country. The ROC doesn't have this problem and in fact has every right to safe guard its territory and prevent it from being carved out and hence has every right to reincorporate outer Mongolia back to its territory if it is in control of the mainland. It is an unimpeachable act under the law of the United Nations.

    In the case of South Tibet neither the PRC nor the ROC has ever recognizes it to be part of India. Hence the PRC should, at a time of its own choosing, retake South Tibet and kick the Indian invaders out of the Chinese territory. I am sure when the PRC kick the Indians out of South Tibet the people in South Tibet will first and foremost have a collective big sigh of relief and Taiwan will be cheering on the side too. This is one of the things both sides of the strait can agree on and this is why I have been advocating this for a long time because it will create an atmosphere that is conducive to reunification.

    For your information the Nationalist government has been sending representations after representations first to the British Raj and later to India (after August 1947) of its repeated incursion into Chinese territory. In fact one of the last act of the Nationalist government before it retreated to Taiwan is to send yet another diplomatic protest to India of its incursion. India was one of the first countries to recognize the PRC as the government of China and in one full stroke shuts out the Nationalist government for good. But even that when India invaded and annexed Tawang in 1951 the Nationalist government (then in Taiwan) was vehemently denouncing India's travesty.

    Replies: @d dan

    “The PRC should do it too but it is harder for PRC to do it…”

    As I said, whatever the merits of PRC vs ROC, that is not the point of debate. It is the part of asking “US to help” that is showing your delusion. You are 与虎谋皮, if you think US has any interests, motivation, capability or intention of making a strong and unified China out of ROC.

    • Replies: @DB Cooper
    @d dan

    "if you think US has any interests, motivation, capability or intention of making a strong and unified China out of ROC."

    I am toying with that dumb fuck utu, don't you understand?

  64. India vs China is a good example to illustrate flawed methodology behind Karlin’s “military strength” index. No way India is at one-third of China’s military potential. India is a highly dysfunctional third-world country, and would get its ass handed to it in any military confrontation. India’s logistics in Himalayas will be inferior to Chinese logistics.

    India used to be a good friend to USSR in the past, but more recently India’s elites developed unhealthy fascination with US&Israel. These two countries have pushed Russia out of India’s weapon’s market. And beyond weapons trade there is little that binds Russia and India together, Russia’s relationship with India is based on Soviet nostalgia, but severely lacking in substance.

    • Replies: @Vishnugupta
    @Felix Keverich

    Well we are still by far the biggest purchaser of Russian arms.

    We also bought S400 and half a dozen other defence products last year despite US threats of sanctions.

    But yes you are right in the sense that the relationship is not as close as it used to be.

    Still FWIW there is still immense goodwill here for Russia for all the help in the USSR era.

    Replies: @neutral, @showmethereal

  65. @d dan
    @DB Cooper


    "The PRC should do it too but it is harder for PRC to do it..."
     
    As I said, whatever the merits of PRC vs ROC, that is not the point of debate. It is the part of asking "US to help" that is showing your delusion. You are 与虎谋皮, if you think US has any interests, motivation, capability or intention of making a strong and unified China out of ROC.

    Replies: @DB Cooper

    “if you think US has any interests, motivation, capability or intention of making a strong and unified China out of ROC.”

    I am toying with that dumb fuck utu, don’t you understand?

  66. soyuz says:
    June 17, 2020 at 7:16 am GMT • 100 Words   
    @utu
    @Daniel Chieh

    The US should seriously consider giving guarantees for Taiwan sovereignty.


    https://www.unz.com/pbuchanan/jinping-takes-up-the-us-challenge/#comment-3922573
    If the US is really going to contest and stop China, Taiwan is the place where to draw the line in the sand. The legal case for Taiwan sovereignty and independence from China within the international law is much more clear cut than that for Hong Kong. If the will of the Taiwanese who in majority do not have close historical links to China is to seek the independence then the US should help them. Actually it is the US that should give Taiwan guarantees that it will use all its power to protect the independence of Taiwan so Taiwan can proceed.

    China does not need to have Taiwan just like the US does not need to have Puerto Rico or Hawaii. If Puerto Rico or Hawaii decided to secede I would support any country, including China, that would help them to accomplish it. For similar reason I will support the US helping Taiwan achieve its independence.

    From the point of view of the rest of the world that consists of small countries and small nations neither China nor America are good guys or bad guys. They are powers that small nations and countries have to put up with. While America did some good in the world it also did a lot of evil. China has not been a power long enough yet in the modern era to demonstrate its full capacity for good and evil but nobody has any illusions that given a chance it won’t be much better than America.
     

    Replies: @DB Cooper, @d dan, @soyuz, @A123, @reiner Tor, @Astuteobservor II

    China does not need to have Taiwan just like the US does not need to have Puerto Rico or Hawaii. If Puerto Rico or Hawaii decided to secede I would support any country, including China, that would help them to accomplish it. For similar reason I will support the US helping Taiwan achieve its independence.

    I think a better analogy is to Cuba than Puerto Rico or Hawaii. Even geographically, the Taiwan Strait separating Taiwan from China is about the same as the distance between Cuba and Florida.

    Cuba is regarded as a “rogue” regime by the US, just like Taiwan is by the PRC. Cuba and Taiwan’s independence have been regarded as politically and ideologically illegitimate by Washington and Beijing. And they’ve been backed by adversaries, the USSR during the Cold War and the US in Taiwan.

    • Thanks: showmethereal
  67. @Felix Keverich
    India vs China is a good example to illustrate flawed methodology behind Karlin's "military strength" index. No way India is at one-third of China's military potential. India is a highly dysfunctional third-world country, and would get its ass handed to it in any military confrontation. India's logistics in Himalayas will be inferior to Chinese logistics.

    India used to be a good friend to USSR in the past, but more recently India's elites developed unhealthy fascination with US&Israel. These two countries have pushed Russia out of India's weapon's market. And beyond weapons trade there is little that binds Russia and India together, Russia's relationship with India is based on Soviet nostalgia, but severely lacking in substance.

    Replies: @Vishnugupta

    Well we are still by far the biggest purchaser of Russian arms.

    We also bought S400 and half a dozen other defence products last year despite US threats of sanctions.

    But yes you are right in the sense that the relationship is not as close as it used to be.

    Still FWIW there is still immense goodwill here for Russia for all the help in the USSR era.

    • Replies: @neutral
    @Vishnugupta

    This is says it all what India is about these days.

    https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/1024/branded_news/F289/production/_99598026_gettyimages-904692674.jpg

    Replies: @Vishnugupta, @Escher

    , @showmethereal
    @Vishnugupta

    "We also bought S400 and half a dozen other defence products last year despite US threats of sanctions."

    True... But Russia sold the S-400 to India for a lower cost per unit. 30 years ago - India would have most likely gotten the better deal (or rather China might not have even gotten it). Russia's intelligence network is still pretty formidable. It seems to me Russia realizes India is pivoting harder towards the 5 Eyes and so isn't doing it any favors anymore.

    Replies: @Vishnugupta

  68. @Vishnugupta
    @Felix Keverich

    Well we are still by far the biggest purchaser of Russian arms.

    We also bought S400 and half a dozen other defence products last year despite US threats of sanctions.

    But yes you are right in the sense that the relationship is not as close as it used to be.

    Still FWIW there is still immense goodwill here for Russia for all the help in the USSR era.

    Replies: @neutral, @showmethereal

    This is says it all what India is about these days.

    • Replies: @Vishnugupta
    @neutral

    There are similar pics of him with 20 other leaders.

    Yes we do have good relations with Israel mostly because of our common problems with people of a certain religious persuasion...

    Replies: @neutral

    , @Escher
    @neutral

    LOL. There are plenty of pics of Putin spooning with Netanyahu.

  69. Jatt Arya says:
    June 17, 2020 at 8:19 am GMT • 100 Words   

    This thread is a good mixture of crazy wignats who believe too much of their racial conspiracy theories (while Indian CEOs take them offline) & I guess hapa? trolls who talk like India is stuck in the 3rd century with SSA human capital.

    Then u have Felix who probably has family members who were saved from starvation by 90s Indian MIC purchases.

    I’m waiting for the Anglos to show up||

    Vishnugupta they’re all your’s.

    • Replies: @Felix Keverich
    @Jatt Arya

    If India's pro-American drift reaches its logical conclusion, I don't see them buying any Russian weapons in the future. On the other hand, if China gives them a black eye right now, while US does nothing, it might get Indians to question the merits of allying with Washington.

    India is on a wrong path politically, but this confrontation might give it the jolt it needs to reassess its pro-American foreign policy.

    Replies: @Jatt Arya

  70. @neutral
    @Vishnugupta

    This is says it all what India is about these days.

    https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/1024/branded_news/F289/production/_99598026_gettyimages-904692674.jpg

    Replies: @Vishnugupta, @Escher

    There are similar pics of him with 20 other leaders.

    Yes we do have good relations with Israel mostly because of our common problems with people of a certain religious persuasion…

    • Replies: @neutral
    @Vishnugupta

    Your common problems with Muslims in the greater scheme of things are close to nothing compared to what the jews pose as a threat to India.

    And this Muslim/Hindu conflict is nonsense anyway, they are both racially the same type, a Muslim can marry a Hindu and the children can become either of the two religions, I don't see how they are any less Indian. You can't say the same about a white marrying a non white however.

    Replies: @Jatt Arya, @Korenchkin

  71. @Jatt Arya
    This thread is a good mixture of crazy wignats who believe too much of their racial conspiracy theories (while Indian CEOs take them offline) & I guess hapa? trolls who talk like India is stuck in the 3rd century with SSA human capital.

    Then u have Felix who probably has family members who were saved from starvation by 90s Indian MIC purchases.

    I'm waiting for the Anglos to show up||

    Vishnugupta they're all your's.

    Replies: @Felix Keverich

    If India’s pro-American drift reaches its logical conclusion, I don’t see them buying any Russian weapons in the future. On the other hand, if China gives them a black eye right now, while US does nothing, it might get Indians to question the merits of allying with Washington.

    India is on a wrong path politically, but this confrontation might give it the jolt it needs to reassess its pro-American foreign policy.

    • Replies: @Jatt Arya
    @Felix Keverich

    Indians are weak cucks who deserve a couple genocides until they wake up from this Gandhian nonsense।।

  72. neutral says:
    June 17, 2020 at 8:50 am GMT • 100 Words   
    @Vishnugupta
    @neutral

    There are similar pics of him with 20 other leaders.

    Yes we do have good relations with Israel mostly because of our common problems with people of a certain religious persuasion...

    Replies: @neutral

    Your common problems with Muslims in the greater scheme of things are close to nothing compared to what the jews pose as a threat to India.

    And this Muslim/Hindu conflict is nonsense anyway, they are both racially the same type, a Muslim can marry a Hindu and the children can become either of the two religions, I don’t see how they are any less Indian. You can’t say the same about a white marrying a non white however.

    • Replies: @Jatt Arya
    @neutral

    Race is a social construct, caste is real।।
    You're not demonstrating anything but how 'whites' get conquered by more tribal races beginning (ideologically) with jews and progressing to blacks and arabs।।



    https://manasataramgini.wordpress.com/2016/03/13/some-notes-on-the-heathen-lithuania-and-its-demise/

    You're only showing an ignorance of your own history if you think Western Europe hasn't been using Islam against Slavs & Indians for centuries now।।

    The abject reality is that Negrolatrous whites, muslims and blacks are all on the same side।।

    I don't know why all the cribbing about jews. I think it's obvious at this point that jews are demons and blacks animals.

    Why speak of their conduct in the same sense as humans?

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾ।।ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ।।

    https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/720496177291984896/722777189258625064/ETe-k9LWAAYMkbK.png

    Replies: @neutral, @Tor597, @Not Only Wrathful

    , @Korenchkin
    @neutral

    This post is a good summary why nobody gives a shit about white nationalist opinions

  73. I can’t wait for them to get humiliated by the Chinese

    • Replies: @Jatt Arya
    @Kent Nationalist

    Doesn't compare to the humiliation you seeth seeing non whites walking around London।।

  74. @neutral
    @Vishnugupta

    This is says it all what India is about these days.

    https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/1024/branded_news/F289/production/_99598026_gettyimages-904692674.jpg

    Replies: @Vishnugupta, @Escher

    LOL. There are plenty of pics of Putin spooning with Netanyahu.

    • Agree: Ano4
  75. Pentheus says:

    China vs. India war, if it ever happened: no contest.

    Chinese = army ants on the march
    Indians = mouse infestation

    Mice in large numbers become a self-cancelling self-liability of feces and starvation. (India is a literal “shithole” of overpopulation, feces, trash, and hunger.) Ants in large numbers are the true nature of ants. (Much of China is still primitive but there is not shit in the streets.)

    Stinging army ants can outswarm mouse hordes easily. Mice can never outswarm or even really hurt an army ant swarm on the march. Ants as a group are a coordinated thing in itself with a kind of group mind. Mice in a group are just a bunch of individual mice.

    Chinese people with “nothing to lose” are still strong, energetic and willing to die for the group good. Indian people with “nothing to lose” are scrawny, weak, cowardly and worthless militarily. Some Chinese WITH “something to lose” will still be fierce, group-minded, and willing to risk losing it. Indians with “something to lose” wouldn’t risk a stubbed toe.

    India could never do what the Chi-Coms did in overwhelming the Americans by sheer numbers, revolutionary esprit, and fearlessness in the Korean War.

    India is the most pathetic country in world history. Alexander the Great, with only a few thousand men, was poised to take over the whole thing – and he knew he could, easily – except that his men rebelled against going any farther away from home. The Mughals took India over, then the Brits.

    Nukes: sure, China and India both have them; but do both sides have equal willingness to USE them? China would not flinch if it were deemed necessary. Every Indian in charge is infected with Western “human rights” and approval-seeking – plus the “divinity is in everything” religious sensibility – which would flinch at hitting “The Button.”

    And even just on the individual physical level: what has India ever done in any sports besides cricket?

    • Replies: @showmethereal
    @Pentheus

    Ouch! That was harsh... But there is a lot of truth in how you put it...
    In any event - let's hope there is no war.

    , @d dan
    @Pentheus


    "Ants as a group are a coordinated thing in itself with a kind of group mind."
     
    You mean like this (note how one team guard their marching army diligently):

    https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV117411q7Cm/?spm_id_from=333.788.videocard.0

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh

  76. @Tor597
    @Jatt Arya

    India probably has the worst troop quality in the world mate.

    No offense to you, but I can't think of a country India could conquer unless it was another country full of Indians.

    Replies: @DB Cooper, @Amerimutt Golems

    India probably has the worst troop quality in the world mate.

    No offense to you, but I can’t think of a country India could conquer unless it was another country full of Indians.

    India isn’t even a real country but rather a collection of different groups dominated by Hindus.

    In the event of full hostilities China can exploit the separatist movements as well as enmity with Pakis.

    • Replies: @Europe Europa
    @Amerimutt Golems

    I guess it's arguably the equivalent to calling Europe one country, as in the dominant religion is (or was) Christianity and native Europeans are mostly broadly ethnically related but almost every group has their own language and culture?

  77. @Felix Keverich
    @Jatt Arya

    If India's pro-American drift reaches its logical conclusion, I don't see them buying any Russian weapons in the future. On the other hand, if China gives them a black eye right now, while US does nothing, it might get Indians to question the merits of allying with Washington.

    India is on a wrong path politically, but this confrontation might give it the jolt it needs to reassess its pro-American foreign policy.

    Replies: @Jatt Arya

    Indians are weak cucks who deserve a couple genocides until they wake up from this Gandhian nonsense।।

  78. @Kent Nationalist
    I can't wait for them to get humiliated by the Chinese

    Replies: @Jatt Arya

    Doesn’t compare to the humiliation you seeth seeing non whites walking around London।।

  79. @neutral
    @Vishnugupta

    Your common problems with Muslims in the greater scheme of things are close to nothing compared to what the jews pose as a threat to India.

    And this Muslim/Hindu conflict is nonsense anyway, they are both racially the same type, a Muslim can marry a Hindu and the children can become either of the two religions, I don't see how they are any less Indian. You can't say the same about a white marrying a non white however.

    Replies: @Jatt Arya, @Korenchkin

    Race is a social construct, caste is real।।
    You’re not demonstrating anything but how ‘whites’ get conquered by more tribal races beginning (ideologically) with jews and progressing to blacks and arabs।।

    [MORE]

    https://manasataramgini.wordpress.com/2016/03/13/some-notes-on-the-heathen-lithuania-and-its-demise/

    You’re only showing an ignorance of your own history if you think Western Europe hasn’t been using Islam against Slavs & Indians for centuries now।।

    The abject reality is that Negrolatrous whites, muslims and blacks are all on the same side।।

    I don’t know why all the cribbing about jews. I think it’s obvious at this point that jews are demons and blacks animals.

    Why speak of their conduct in the same sense as humans?

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾ।।ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ।।

    • Replies: @neutral
    @Jatt Arya

    Social construct indeed, so when children born in China never look like the ones born in Nigeria it's because of cultural norms... The Indian caste system is just a way to explain the racial system, it is hardly a secret that the lighter and darker skinned browns don't happily dance together like in some Bollywood movie.

    Replies: @Jatt Arya

    , @Tor597
    @Jatt Arya

    So your actually defending the caste system? How barbaric.

    , @Not Only Wrathful
    @Jatt Arya


    I don’t know why all the cribbing about jews. I think it’s obvious at this point that jews are demons and blacks animals.
     
    That is certainly the role they play within the psyche of part of the Western far right.
  80. @Daniel Chieh
    Nothing you said connects in any way to sanity. Let's just pick a few.

    The PRC should have easily foreseen that removing HK from UK Law would have dire financial consequences. And, they failed they to do so.
     

    They foresaw many things. And they don't care - because HK has outlived its usefulness. The "dire financial consequences" such as it was already had happened when it became too much of a political risk for companies to remain. Nor have you considered the possibility that the CCP is completely fine with wrecking HK so that they can essentially repurchase it for the cheap.

    Control is the single greatest motivator of the CCP. An HK that was out of control is essentially useless to them, and an active liability. Whatever "PR" consequences(which China really doesn't care much about, especially from innately hostile actors), are much less muted than tolerating an active liability.


    Xi looks at HK, and has the intelligence to grasp the long term impact of the PRC breaking another economy and impoverishing the Han Chinese of Taiwan.
     
    Ultimately, if Taiwan is not cooperative, it is also a liability and if it is heavily populated by Han Chinese, it is in fact seen as an insufferable insult that they would choose to align themselves with ancient enemies such as the Japanese: traitors. The long-term impact of PRC unifying Taiwan is, within Chinese terms and this might be unfortunate, but it would be the summation of the Mandate of Heaven for quite some time. Its a great accomplishment, and great accomplishments are how the Mandate is perceived.

    Rather than idly speculate, try to read up on Chinese history and you'll see that the habit of endless deathmatches in order to have a single China is the norm.

    If Xi orders the conquest of Tiawan, he will personally own 100% of the downside. We all see that you believe Xi is an utter moron, willing to make obvious and easily avoidable errors.
     

    The most easily avoided error is to ignore anything that someone like you would say.

    But for starters, Xi is not some sort of Emperor. He has outsized impact but Chinese politics also has multiple factions and he ultimately have to be responsive to the population(to which a good percentage are ultranationalists), and figures such as Zhao Lijian and "wolf warrior" diplomacy are great examples of the increasing prominence of -much more aggressive- politicians. Even top members of the politburo are more "revisionist" and aggressive than he is, and he owns all of their decisions and choices.


    As the history you either do not know or cannot understand shows, that type of air superiority is of limited value when dealing with dispersed light infantry in hostile terrain.
     
    That does not matter.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Vietnamese_conflicts,_1979%E2%80%931991

    China is completely willing to fight an war of essentially no specific gain, because in any trade of material versus a less industrialized country, China comes out much stronger at the end via attrition. Knockout blows are unnecessary so as long as strategic advantage is realized.

    Replies: @utu, @animalogic, @A123, @Not Only Wrathful, @Astuteobservor II

    Given the general & Covid inspired economic problems of the world, I suspect China will prioritize economic matters, if given a chance

  81. Request: Can Jatt Arya be banned from commenting? His contributions are low quality, numerous, and I think drive away intelligent discussion.

    • Disagree: neutral, EldnahYm
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    @china-russia-all-the-way

    No, his powerful takes must never leave us.

    Replies: @Ano4

  82. neutral says:
    @Jatt Arya
    @neutral

    Race is a social construct, caste is real।।
    You're not demonstrating anything but how 'whites' get conquered by more tribal races beginning (ideologically) with jews and progressing to blacks and arabs।।



    https://manasataramgini.wordpress.com/2016/03/13/some-notes-on-the-heathen-lithuania-and-its-demise/

    You're only showing an ignorance of your own history if you think Western Europe hasn't been using Islam against Slavs & Indians for centuries now।।

    The abject reality is that Negrolatrous whites, muslims and blacks are all on the same side।।

    I don't know why all the cribbing about jews. I think it's obvious at this point that jews are demons and blacks animals.

    Why speak of their conduct in the same sense as humans?

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾ।।ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ।।

    https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/720496177291984896/722777189258625064/ETe-k9LWAAYMkbK.png

    Replies: @neutral, @Tor597, @Not Only Wrathful

    Social construct indeed, so when children born in China never look like the ones born in Nigeria it’s because of cultural norms… The Indian caste system is just a way to explain the racial system, it is hardly a secret that the lighter and darker skinned browns don’t happily dance together like in some Bollywood movie.

    • Replies: @Jatt Arya
    @neutral

    You have light & dark in same family, tribe is real conflict. Or do brown haired Euros fight blondes?

    Race & nationality (or lack of) from a Christian perspective is of potential gene pool.
    Christianity doesn't limit marriage by ancestry and has traditionally let women pick who they want.

    That is disgusting and ghey||


    Inter-caste marriage = death
    Don't care for your opinion whether Curry Muslim, Nigger Christian or Huwhyte Christian is better.
    They're all equally invalid,
     
    https://twitter.com/tishtriya/status/961130385127198720



    Liberal race mixing propaganda is originally church propaganda

    "When the best interests of society required the unification of the numerous tribes and peoples which had settled on the soil of the Roman Empire. By overthrowing the barriers between inimical families and races, ruinous internecine warfare was diminished and greater peace and harmony secured among the newly-converted Christians."

     

    https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04264a.htm


    The church also curtailed parents’ abilities to retain kinship ties through arranged marriages by prohibiting unions in which the bride didn’t explicitly agree to the union.

    Among the anthropologically defined 356 contemporary societies of Euro-Asia and Africa, there is a large and significant negative correlation between Christianization (for at least 500 years) and the absence of clans and lineages; the level of commercialization, class stratification, and state formation are insignificant.”
     
    https://hbdchick.wordpress.com/2011/04/04/whatever-happened-to-european-tribes/


    In other words, the Church promoted consensual and egalitarian marriage relations based on the free will of individual men and women. This is what Siedentop means by the Catholic "invention of individualism".
     
    https://www.eurocanadian.ca/2020/04/kevin-macdonald-hail-catholic-5church-forcing-monogamy-upon-nobility.html

    Individualism, race-mixing, feminism & globalism.
    Christian or Liberal?
    You decide.
    What's the difference?

    Replies: @songbird

  83. @Amerimutt Golems
    @Tor597



    India probably has the worst troop quality in the world mate.

    No offense to you, but I can’t think of a country India could conquer unless it was another country full of Indians.

     

    India isn't even a real country but rather a collection of different groups dominated by Hindus.

    In the event of full hostilities China can exploit the separatist movements as well as enmity with Pakis.

    Replies: @Europe Europa

    I guess it’s arguably the equivalent to calling Europe one country, as in the dominant religion is (or was) Christianity and native Europeans are mostly broadly ethnically related but almost every group has their own language and culture?

  84. @china-russia-all-the-way
    Request: Can Jatt Arya be banned from commenting? His contributions are low quality, numerous, and I think drive away intelligent discussion.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    No, his powerful takes must never leave us.

    • Agree: Anatoly Karlin
    • Thanks: Jatt Arya
    • LOL: Blinky Bill
    • Replies: @Ano4
    @Daniel Chieh

    He adequately depicts the riches of the Hindustani geopolitical tradition.

    🙂

  85. India , Pakistan and China I hope can work things out Otherwise the Asian century will be lost or will always be on the edge .

  86. A123 says:
    June 17, 2020 at 1:16 pm GMT • 300 Words   
    @utu
    @Daniel Chieh

    The US should seriously consider giving guarantees for Taiwan sovereignty.


    https://www.unz.com/pbuchanan/jinping-takes-up-the-us-challenge/#comment-3922573
    If the US is really going to contest and stop China, Taiwan is the place where to draw the line in the sand. The legal case for Taiwan sovereignty and independence from China within the international law is much more clear cut than that for Hong Kong. If the will of the Taiwanese who in majority do not have close historical links to China is to seek the independence then the US should help them. Actually it is the US that should give Taiwan guarantees that it will use all its power to protect the independence of Taiwan so Taiwan can proceed.

    China does not need to have Taiwan just like the US does not need to have Puerto Rico or Hawaii. If Puerto Rico or Hawaii decided to secede I would support any country, including China, that would help them to accomplish it. For similar reason I will support the US helping Taiwan achieve its independence.

    From the point of view of the rest of the world that consists of small countries and small nations neither China nor America are good guys or bad guys. They are powers that small nations and countries have to put up with. While America did some good in the world it also did a lot of evil. China has not been a power long enough yet in the modern era to demonstrate its full capacity for good and evil but nobody has any illusions that given a chance it won’t be much better than America.
     

    Replies: @DB Cooper, @d dan, @soyuz, @A123, @reiner Tor, @Astuteobservor II

    The US should seriously consider giving guarantees for Taiwan sovereignty.

    There is 0% motivation for Trump to raise those stakes. He is pulling back on U.S. Force deployments.

    More importantly, Trump does not want to distract U.S. unparalleled success over China in other areas. He is handing Xi defeat after defeat after defeat on the trade front. For example:

    — USCMA — reducing the permitted % of Chinese auto parts.
    — Phase 1 of the China-US bilateral negotiations.
    — Made in USA requirements for medical goods (PPE), pharmaceuticals, etc.

    The next back breaking blow against Red Chinese exploitation is already in the way and Xi is helpless to stop it: (1)

    U.S. Trade Representative Robert Lighthizer is testifying [today] at 10:00am to the House Ways and Means committee; later in the afternoon Ambassador Lighthizer will testify before the Senate Finance Committee.

    The New York Times has received an advance copy of USTR Lighthizer’s opening statement, and the liberal publication is apoplectic the Trump administration plans to outline an even more aggressive stance toward the World Trade Organization (WTO). …

    One method to approach tariff inequality would be for the U.S. to lower the import value threshold for non-tariff exemptions. Currently the U.S. does not apply import duties to any product valued under $800. This is a great benefit to China, southeast Asia, and U.S. on-line retailers such as ebay and Amazon; however, the zero tariff threshold hurts U.S. manufacturers because China and other nations do not reciprocate.

    It is anticipated that USTR Lighthizer will inform congress the U.S. will lower that import threshold to match the same value level applied by other nations.

    China’s inefficient State Owned Enterprises are incapable of competing on fair terms. Exploitation is integral to their business model. Without it, they are in deep trouble.

    PEACE 😇
    _______

    (1) https://theconservativetreehouse.com/2020/06/16/ustr-lighthizer-plans-to-outline-renewed-demand-for-international-tariff-reciprocity/

    • LOL: Swarthy Greek
    • Troll: showmethereal
    • Replies: @Escher
    @A123

    OMG. How will Americans (of all stripes) survive without their Chinese assembled iToys?

    Replies: @A123

    , @eastkekistaniisawhiteguy
    @A123

    you know nothing about china , chinese exports are dwarfed by what it consumes internally,if china was desperate they would let all the foreigners that work for the multinationals who are frothing at the bit to go back to china , my hope is they keep all furriners out for a long time

    Replies: @Astuteobservor II

  87. A123 says:
    June 17, 2020 at 1:28 pm GMT • 100 Words   
    @Daniel Chieh
    Nothing you said connects in any way to sanity. Let's just pick a few.

    The PRC should have easily foreseen that removing HK from UK Law would have dire financial consequences. And, they failed they to do so.
     

    They foresaw many things. And they don't care - because HK has outlived its usefulness. The "dire financial consequences" such as it was already had happened when it became too much of a political risk for companies to remain. Nor have you considered the possibility that the CCP is completely fine with wrecking HK so that they can essentially repurchase it for the cheap.

    Control is the single greatest motivator of the CCP. An HK that was out of control is essentially useless to them, and an active liability. Whatever "PR" consequences(which China really doesn't care much about, especially from innately hostile actors), are much less muted than tolerating an active liability.


    Xi looks at HK, and has the intelligence to grasp the long term impact of the PRC breaking another economy and impoverishing the Han Chinese of Taiwan.
     
    Ultimately, if Taiwan is not cooperative, it is also a liability and if it is heavily populated by Han Chinese, it is in fact seen as an insufferable insult that they would choose to align themselves with ancient enemies such as the Japanese: traitors. The long-term impact of PRC unifying Taiwan is, within Chinese terms and this might be unfortunate, but it would be the summation of the Mandate of Heaven for quite some time. Its a great accomplishment, and great accomplishments are how the Mandate is perceived.

    Rather than idly speculate, try to read up on Chinese history and you'll see that the habit of endless deathmatches in order to have a single China is the norm.

    If Xi orders the conquest of Tiawan, he will personally own 100% of the downside. We all see that you believe Xi is an utter moron, willing to make obvious and easily avoidable errors.
     

    The most easily avoided error is to ignore anything that someone like you would say.

    But for starters, Xi is not some sort of Emperor. He has outsized impact but Chinese politics also has multiple factions and he ultimately have to be responsive to the population(to which a good percentage are ultranationalists), and figures such as Zhao Lijian and "wolf warrior" diplomacy are great examples of the increasing prominence of -much more aggressive- politicians. Even top members of the politburo are more "revisionist" and aggressive than he is, and he owns all of their decisions and choices.


    As the history you either do not know or cannot understand shows, that type of air superiority is of limited value when dealing with dispersed light infantry in hostile terrain.
     
    That does not matter.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Vietnamese_conflicts,_1979%E2%80%931991

    China is completely willing to fight an war of essentially no specific gain, because in any trade of material versus a less industrialized country, China comes out much stronger at the end via attrition. Knockout blows are unnecessary so as long as strategic advantage is realized.

    Replies: @utu, @animalogic, @A123, @Not Only Wrathful, @Astuteobservor II

    Troll Chieh,

    You state that Xi is totally committed to first use of violence. Yet, it is absolutely clear that he has not already attacked Taiwan. Only the brain dead would believe your “premeditated first strike” prognostication. Your position is self refuting. It does not correlate to objective facts in Xi’s record.

    As you are an insulting, fact-free TROLL — I add you to my blocked commenter s list.

    Please do not bother to respond. I will not see it, and no one else wants to hear it either.

    I feel pity for you.. Goodbye.

    PEACE 😇

    • Troll: neutral, Anatoly Karlin
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    @A123

    You are a coward as well as a moron, I see.

    , @Korenchkin
    @A123


    he has not already attacked Taiwan
     
    Retard alert class!
  88. @A123
    @Daniel Chieh

    Troll Chieh,

    You state that Xi is totally committed to first use of violence. Yet, it is absolutely clear that he has not already attacked Taiwan. Only the brain dead would believe your "premeditated first strike" prognostication. Your position is self refuting. It does not correlate to objective facts in Xi's record.

    As you are an insulting, fact-free TROLL -- I add you to my blocked commenter s list.

    Please do not bother to respond. I will not see it, and no one else wants to hear it either.

    I feel pity for you.. Goodbye.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @Korenchkin

    You are a coward as well as a moron, I see.

    • Agree: silviosilver
  89. @Vishnugupta
    Well I don't see why relocation of white families is required.We have plenty of foreigners in India.I assume they are here because the money they earn justifies them working here.

    From what expats I interact with in Gurgaon (suburb of Delhi) tell me us as long as you stick to the right places there are no serious problems though yes Indians do stare at them more.And before this lockdown would go out for drinks with them every few weeks so this is not some PC version of facts I'm getting.One korean expat got his kids here because IB schools are so much cheaper in India.

    India so far has competitive and relatively large scale manufacturing capabilities in Pharma,automobiles and auto components and petrochemicals.Other sectors are lagging behind other emerging markets but some notable recent successes include smartphone manufacturing (Samsung recently opened what is globally its largest assembly plant in India recently)...

    Replies: @Swarthy Greek, @Tor597

    Assembly work, whether in electronics or the automotive sector is a low added value business. India just can’t into high-tech and indigenous R&D, despite having a massive domestic market and being very protectionist. Just look at the DRDO: the Arjun tank, Tejas fighter, indigenous nuclear submarine… All these R&D projects have been massive failures despite getting plenty of funding commitments and foreign help. India will never match China economically or militarily, i even doubt it will catch-up to a Brazilified United States.

    • Replies: @Znzn
    @Swarthy Greek

    Well in fairness the Chinese still do not have a mass produced competitive civilian jet engine up until now.

    , @Vishnugupta
    @Swarthy Greek

    How is our indigenous nuclear sub a massive failure?

    Its presently on patrol.

    The follow on sub is undergoing sea trials..

    Arjun tank is a failure yes.

    But I would not classify things like our space launch vehicles and satellites,agni missile system, shivalik/delhi/ vishakapatnam class naval ships,ALH and LCH helicopters,Param Supercomputers etc. as failures.

    LCA is massively delayed because of many issues but is presently being inducted and being improved in tranches..it is our first fighter plane project so obviously there are problems but an arjun tank type failure it is not.

    Also our auto industry is far more than simple assembly we build engines and most mechanical components of mainline BMW,MB,Audi and other brands in India.

    Our indigenous brands like Tata and Mahindra make fairly competent mainstream cars and SUVs.

    https://www.autocarindia.com/cars/tata/harrier

    Replies: @Swarthy Greek

  90. Znzn says:
    June 17, 2020 at 1:47 pm GMT • 100 Words   

    The reason why right wing conservative men put the Chinese on a pedestal is simply because they want to have sex with Chinese women, plus since they have not been to China aside from the Tier 1 cities, they have not encountered Chinese proles, who are honestly no smarter than rural European proles.

    • Replies: @Europe Europa
    @Znzn

    Average European IQ is lower than the average Chinese IQ though, if their stats can be taken as representative of the whole population. The range of average IQ across different European nations is about 102 to 89, so the European average as a whole is going to be below 100. This is not taking into account majority Muslim nations like Albania and Bosnia which would lower the average even further.

    The average IQ in China is generally reported at around 104, there isn't a single European nation that has an average IQ that high.

    Replies: @Znzn

  91. I think the previous US ambassador to the Philippines says that around 40 percent of US visitors to the Philippines are basically sex tourists like Jeff Styrker.

  92. @Swarthy Greek
    @Vishnugupta

    Assembly work, whether in electronics or the automotive sector is a low added value business. India just can't into high-tech and indigenous R&D, despite having a massive domestic market and being very protectionist. Just look at the DRDO: the Arjun tank, Tejas fighter, indigenous nuclear submarine... All these R&D projects have been massive failures despite getting plenty of funding commitments and foreign help. India will never match China economically or militarily, i even doubt it will catch-up to a Brazilified United States.

    Replies: @Znzn, @Vishnugupta

    Well in fairness the Chinese still do not have a mass produced competitive civilian jet engine up until now.

  93. @A123
    @Daniel Chieh

    Troll Chieh,

    You state that Xi is totally committed to first use of violence. Yet, it is absolutely clear that he has not already attacked Taiwan. Only the brain dead would believe your "premeditated first strike" prognostication. Your position is self refuting. It does not correlate to objective facts in Xi's record.

    As you are an insulting, fact-free TROLL -- I add you to my blocked commenter s list.

    Please do not bother to respond. I will not see it, and no one else wants to hear it either.

    I feel pity for you.. Goodbye.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @Korenchkin

    he has not already attacked Taiwan

    Retard alert class!

  94. @Swarthy Greek
    @Vishnugupta

    Assembly work, whether in electronics or the automotive sector is a low added value business. India just can't into high-tech and indigenous R&D, despite having a massive domestic market and being very protectionist. Just look at the DRDO: the Arjun tank, Tejas fighter, indigenous nuclear submarine... All these R&D projects have been massive failures despite getting plenty of funding commitments and foreign help. India will never match China economically or militarily, i even doubt it will catch-up to a Brazilified United States.

    Replies: @Znzn, @Vishnugupta

    How is our indigenous nuclear sub a massive failure?

    Its presently on patrol.

    The follow on sub is undergoing sea trials..

    Arjun tank is a failure yes.

    But I would not classify things like our space launch vehicles and satellites,agni missile system, shivalik/delhi/ vishakapatnam class naval ships,ALH and LCH helicopters,Param Supercomputers etc. as failures.

    LCA is massively delayed because of many issues but is presently being inducted and being improved in tranches..it is our first fighter plane project so obviously there are problems but an arjun tank type failure it is not.

    Also our auto industry is far more than simple assembly we build engines and most mechanical components of mainline BMW,MB,Audi and other brands in India.

    Our indigenous brands like Tata and Mahindra make fairly competent mainstream cars and SUVs.

    https://www.autocarindia.com/cars/tata/harrier

    • Replies: @Swarthy Greek
    @Vishnugupta

    Your indigenous SSBN is basically a kilo class submarine with a nuclear reactor. It's essentially a 1970s design that carries only 4 full-sized ICBMs and is still not in service. The PLA Navy was able to design an SSBN in the midst of the cultural revolution and put it in service in 1981 without any foreign input, whereas India hasn't finalised its sub despite getting massive technology transfer from Rubin (Russia) and DCNS (France). Indian engineering sucks, period. India should focus on public works, getting a proper , professional civil service and beefing up internal security instead of dreaming of standing up to China.

    Replies: @Vishnugupta

  95. @utu
    @Daniel Chieh

    The US should seriously consider giving guarantees for Taiwan sovereignty.


    https://www.unz.com/pbuchanan/jinping-takes-up-the-us-challenge/#comment-3922573
    If the US is really going to contest and stop China, Taiwan is the place where to draw the line in the sand. The legal case for Taiwan sovereignty and independence from China within the international law is much more clear cut than that for Hong Kong. If the will of the Taiwanese who in majority do not have close historical links to China is to seek the independence then the US should help them. Actually it is the US that should give Taiwan guarantees that it will use all its power to protect the independence of Taiwan so Taiwan can proceed.

    China does not need to have Taiwan just like the US does not need to have Puerto Rico or Hawaii. If Puerto Rico or Hawaii decided to secede I would support any country, including China, that would help them to accomplish it. For similar reason I will support the US helping Taiwan achieve its independence.

    From the point of view of the rest of the world that consists of small countries and small nations neither China nor America are good guys or bad guys. They are powers that small nations and countries have to put up with. While America did some good in the world it also did a lot of evil. China has not been a power long enough yet in the modern era to demonstrate its full capacity for good and evil but nobody has any illusions that given a chance it won’t be much better than America.
     

    Replies: @DB Cooper, @d dan, @soyuz, @A123, @reiner Tor, @Astuteobservor II

    This would be a high reward strategy, but it would also carry very high risks. Obviously China would have to choose between accepting a humiliating defeat (which could easily lead to Xi being removed from power) or starting a world war. It’s difficult to tell which he would choose.

    • Agree: utu
    • Replies: @d dan
    @reiner Tor


    "This would be a high reward strategy, but it would also carry very high risks."
     
    How is protecting Taiwan any "reward" to US? What benefit(s) does it accrue to US (or any country)?

    "China would have to choose between accepting a humiliating defeat... "
     
    If you think US military has any chance of prevailing in Taiwan Strait, then you are quite outdated on the latest military progresses of China.

    "It’s difficult to tell which he [ Xi ] would choose."
     
    Only westerners think it is difficult to tell. Most Chinese (including overseas Chinese) know the answer. I suspect some Chinese as clueless as Taiwanese greens also know the answer.

    And that is why "utu" suggestion is so idiotic - interfering into other people affair halfway around the world without clear understanding of what others think. Come to think about it - isn't this exactly what US (and some European countries) has been doing all along (in middle east and elsewhere)?

    Replies: @Astuteobservor II, @reiner Tor

  96. @DB Cooper
    @Vishnugupta

    China has no desire to impose its will on its neighbors. In an ideal world of the Chinese, China will be surrounded by friendly prosperous countries. This is very different than India. In an ideal world of the Indians, India will be surrounded by weak and poor countries which India can imposes its will at whims. And this is how India treats Nepal, Bhutan, Sikkim, Sri Lanka...etc. This is why in the lexicon of Indian foreign policy circles it always talk about keeping its smaller neighbors off balance. And this is why India is hated by its smaller neighbors.

    Replies: @Vishnugupta, @reiner Tor

    It’s not like China is liked by its neighbors.

    • Replies: @DB Cooper
    @reiner Tor

    That's not true. China has friendly relations with most of its neighbors.

  97. KA says:
    June 17, 2020 at 2:35 pm GMT • 200 Words   

    India should defend its legitimate interest at all cost . But shouldn’t do anything for Uncle Sam unless it knows for sure that in this game of US-Chain rivalry it will come on the top . USA is known to betray and even destroy its allies not its enemy ( Israel ) .

    Believing in Israel is not fine but definitely taking advantage of. If Israel can thrust daggers at the hearts of the west ( USA UK France Germany ) , Jordan and Egypt ( Remember Israel wants the Palestinian disappear into Jordan without any concerns of the destabilization of its ally Jordan or Egypt who it threatened to bomb in 2002 { Lieberman -bouncer] , it can do same to India .

    India needs to focus on infrastructures and early education . and focus on universal Hindu message . I think Ghandhi has enormous contribution to India’s unity So had Subhas and Bankimchnadra and Swami Vivekanada .
    Muslims in India are not its enemy Neither are Dalits or Christians . But they may not agree entirely with every social and economic programs of Mr Modi .

    Indian population is overwhelmingly poor . China has done one thing- it has allowed that large segment of its population improve its economic fate .

    • Troll: Jatt Arya
  98. Jatt Arya says:
    June 17, 2020 at 2:36 pm GMT • 300 Words   
    @neutral
    @Jatt Arya

    Social construct indeed, so when children born in China never look like the ones born in Nigeria it's because of cultural norms... The Indian caste system is just a way to explain the racial system, it is hardly a secret that the lighter and darker skinned browns don't happily dance together like in some Bollywood movie.

    Replies: @Jatt Arya

    You have light & dark in same family, tribe is real conflict. Or do brown haired Euros fight blondes?

    Race & nationality (or lack of) from a Christian perspective is of potential gene pool.
    Christianity doesn’t limit marriage by ancestry and has traditionally let women pick who they want.

    That is disgusting and ghey||

    Inter-caste marriage = death
    Don’t care for your opinion whether Curry Muslim, Nigger Christian or Huwhyte Christian is better.
    They’re all equally invalid,

    [MORE]

    Liberal race mixing propaganda is originally church propaganda

    “When the best interests of society required the unification of the numerous tribes and peoples which had settled on the soil of the Roman Empire. By overthrowing the barriers between inimical families and races, ruinous internecine warfare was diminished and greater peace and harmony secured among the newly-converted Christians.”

    https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04264a.htm

    The church also curtailed parents’ abilities to retain kinship ties through arranged marriages by prohibiting unions in which the bride didn’t explicitly agree to the union.

    Among the anthropologically defined 356 contemporary societies of Euro-Asia and Africa, there is a large and significant negative correlation between Christianization (for at least 500 years) and the absence of clans and lineages; the level of commercialization, class stratification, and state formation are insignificant.”

    https://hbdchick.wordpress.com/2011/04/04/whatever-happened-to-european-tribes/

    In other words, the Church promoted consensual and egalitarian marriage relations based on the free will of individual men and women. This is what Siedentop means by the Catholic “invention of individualism”.

    https://www.eurocanadian.ca/2020/04/kevin-macdonald-hail-catholic-5church-forcing-monogamy-upon-nobility.html

    Individualism, race-mixing, feminism & globalism.
    Christian or Liberal?
    You decide.
    What’s the difference?

    • Replies: @songbird
    @Jatt Arya

    In the days of sail, Christianity allowed the tiny nation of Portugal to defeat Islamic navies thousands of miles away from the Portuguese homeland, thus gaining control of the Indian Ocean, and arguably becoming a boon to Hindus and Sikhs in the way that they diminished Muslim power.

    One of the secrets was the bells built for cathedrals which required advanced metallurgy. These techniques were turned to the development of powerful artillery - it is hardly cucked, when you are blowing Arabs and Turks sky-high, and taking over their trade.

    Of course, now Portugal looks like Brazil, so you may have a point. It may be that the Church allowed them to become too powerful, and that they would have been better of leaving Africa to the Arabs.

  99. BS says:
    June 17, 2020 at 2:51 pm GMT • 100 Words   
    @A123
    @Daniel Chieh


    reunifying Taiwan would hardly be any “loss of face”; it would instead be generally seen as a fulfillment of a mandate by many.
     
    The failure that is Chieh, abysmally flops again. As you have no comprehension of simple facts, being silent is your only viable option... but that is too much to hope for.

    The PRC should have easily foreseen that removing HK from UK Law would have dire financial consequences. And, they failed they to do so. The result is the ongoing PR train wreck that is the current situation. If you are so smart, give us your solution to fix HK's economy..... Put Up, or Shut Up.
    _____

    Fortunately, Xi is vastly more competent than you. Xi looks at HK, and has the intelligence to grasp the long term impact of the PRC breaking another economy and impoverishing the Han Chinese of Taiwan. Again, he has many legitimate ways to deflect blame over HK. The critical errors predate him.

    If Xi orders the conquest of Tiawan, he will personally own 100% of the downside. We all see that you believe Xi is an utter moron, willing to make obvious and easily avoidable errors. Those of us who have observed Xi's skills, intelligence, & temperament have different and more sensible predictions about his behaviour.


    any conflict would immediately surrender all air superiority to China, a disaster in modern warfare;
     
    You are completely ignorant about the physical size of India and its implication on the usefulness of air power. China could achieve U.S.-Vietnam style air superiority over the front. As the history you either do not know or cannot understand shows, that type of air superiority is of limited value when dealing with dispersed light infantry in hostile terrain. China has insufficient aircraft range and capability to run strikes over the entire nation of India to reach the most critical Southern Indian infrastructure.

    In 30-50 years when China has multiple super carrier task forces, the situation will be different. Until then, all rational minds realize their are severe limits on what the Chinese military can accomplish even though 'on paper' it has a better equipment list.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @BS

    Hong Kong accounts for 2% of China’s national GDP and has zero essential industries. The CCP could choose to liquidate every man, woman and child in Hong Kong and the country wouldn’t even notice it. Instead they’re using it as an example for domestic consumption of what happens when you allow Western subversion to spread unchecked. Any “PR nightmare” is this and this alone – do you think the CCP really cares about what some homosexual living in New York who cries when he reads about the latest fake atrocity porn about HK rioters in the NYT thinks?

    • Agree: mal
    • Replies: @A123
    @BS


    do you think the CCP really cares about what ... the NYT thinks?
     
    Well.... No one cares what The New York Dhimmi Times of Islam thinks. So on that point I have to agree with you.

    Do you think that China cares about the Anti-China fear it is creating in nations other than the U.S.? Its massive projects in Africa are already viewed by many in those nations as a not so subtle form of invasion.

    Who wants to do business with a highly unreliable, short sighted China that:

    -1- Strong armed the UK into handover?
    -2- Did nothing to head off a 100% predictable economic contraction?
    -3- Goes back on its word by ending 'two systems, one nation'?

    #1 & #2 predate Xi, but still stain Chinese credibility on a broad front. Xi's embrace of #3 oath breaking, shows willingness to change deals to obtain personally desired outcomes. Is this Xi's role model?

    https://youtu.be/jsW9MlYu31g?t=1

    Troll Chieh's plan for a military first strike against Taiwan would have even worse consequences. It probably would not be called an embargo, but almost every nation would begin reducing or cutting trade ties with violent, predatory China. It would effectively end the One Belt One Road initiative as potential partners would accurately perceive such engagement as a prelude to Red Chinese invasion.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh

  100. @Daniel Chieh
    @A123

    You have no idea what you're rambling about, though that is par for the course from you.

    To both her credit and penatly, China neither participates nor particularly cares about "soft power" failures; it is enormously focused on internal considerations and despite beliefs to the otherwise, has to consider the opinions of its population - including a large percentage of ultranationalists. Given such, reunifying Taiwan would hardly be any "loss of face"; it would instead be generally seen as a fulfillment of a mandate by many.

    Any actual outright conflict between Chinese and Indian forces alone without outside intervention would be a direct wipe of Indian forces, perhaps as easily visible as India's agonizing efforts to setup a ballistic missile defense, choosing instead to try to develop one which after around 15 years, still can't even protect one city.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Ballistic_Missile_Defence_Programme


    Per reports emerged in January 2020, the first phase of BMD program is now complete Indian Air Force (IAF) and the DRDO are waiting for government's approval to install the missile shield for the national capital and will take three to four years to install shield after approval.

     

    Given the absurd mess that is the Indian military, any conflict would immediately surrender all air superiority to China, a disaster in modern warfare; most likely followed by destruction of any number of high material targets as the overwhelming missile strike is Chinese doctrine and leverages the strength of Chinese industry.

    China could probably airlift troops into India as needed, but its not particularly meaningful and its unlikely that China will do so, and even more unlikely that any serious occupation would be attempted(as that would likely prove costly and difficult).

    China will just settle for its strong advantage in inflicting material destruction from a distance or from the air, which is almost certainly going to be one-sided. Strategic reserves would more than last long enough for such an effort.

    Replies: @A123, @Anatoly Karlin

    You’re obviously closer to the mark than A123, but I am not sure China vs. India will be such a complete wipe.

    China’s superiority in 4th gen + fighters is only twofold, and Indian pilots are pretty good: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cope_India

    Average Indian < average Chinese, but like China, India gets to select from a billion people, and its caste system has ensured subgroups with high IQ, as well as "martial spirit." The latter are certainly overrepresented within the Indian armed forces, though I assume there's a problem with the former (Indian high IQ tend to be apatride – even more than usual for this group).

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    @Anatoly Karlin

    I suppose ultimately that I have to do more research into India's industrial capabilities; there's something just very strange about the unimaginable quagmire that their military systems undergo, whether the anti-ballistic missile system I mentioned or the painful and now halted development of the Su-57 when India pulled out on Russia abruptly after claiming the SU-57 was "too expensive, poorly engineered and powered by old and unreliable engines"


    The Russian version of the Su-57 reportedly is simpler than the Indian version was. The latter included Indian avionics and compatibility with a wider range of weapons. But the Indian fighter existed only on paper.
     
    https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/why-india-rejected-russia%E2%80%99s-su-57-stealth-fighter-146771

    Its one thing to play around with weapons acquisition, but war is a very tail-heavy activity these days and it suggests a fundamental lack of communication and coordination in the armed forces. Lacking that, its hard to see how it can conduct any major modern warfare - obviously small arms and light infantry are different and quite self-sufficient, with enough martial spirit to make it work well, but that is of reduced importance in modern warfare(if unrestricted).

    Replies: @Jatt Arya, @reiner Tor

    , @A123
    @Anatoly Karlin


    You’re obviously closer to the mark than A123, but I am not sure China vs. India will be such a complete wipe.
     
    AK,

    Perhaps I misunderstood the question. The original concept as I read it was, "Can China Defeat India?"

    I do not see anyway that China could seize control of India. It is too big, with too many troops and people. It would be the largest counterinsurgency quagmire in the history of modern warfare. Breaking India's regular infantry would result in troops returning to their home towns. That would provide core skills to feed a Hindu guerilla counter offensive.

    Chinese air superiority would be helpful to their side. However, planes break things. They do not hold land. Even a complete 'wipe' of the Indian Air Force would not result in Chinese military victory over India.

    So, if the question is, "Can China Defeat India?" The answer is "No. It would almost certainly be a stalemate some kind."
    _____

    If you want to envision a different question posing a more limited engagement we can look at it. However, the fact that both sides have nukes makes 'limited' a problematic concept. Mistakes could lead to unplanned escalation.

    The reason why India & Pakistan are stuck in a perpetual skirmish over Kashmir is the fact that escalation could lead to a thermonuclear exchange. As much as both sides want to win, the obvious lose-lose potential is easy to find.

    PEACE 😇

    , @last straw
    @Anatoly Karlin

    China probably has overwhelming superiority in electronic warfare with their newly established Strategic Support Force. China probably also enjoys enormous supremacy in drone warfare. In light of how easily the Turkish UAVs destroyed Russian air-defense systems such as the Pantsir missile system in Syria, China's advantage in such systems should be underestimated.

    , @china-russia-all-the-way
    @Anatoly Karlin

    I believe the Indian officer corps is known for having fewer shortcomings in corruption than other sections of India. There is a climate of meritocratic promotion with low corruption. One out of four army chiefs are Khatris (a Punjabi Hindu high caste) indicating good quality rises up the ranks. Sikhs, another group with high martial spirit is disproportionately represented. Two percent of India is Sikh but they are about 20% of the officer corps.

    Besides these advantages, Indian and Western assess Chinese military infrastructure to be not well prepared for a war near the Indian border. China doesn't have much personnel, equipment or aircraft near the border with India.


    In the northern Xinjiang sector’s two airfields Hotan and Kashgar - the distance between them is 450 km while the distance between Hotan and Gargunsa is 550 kms. Hotan to Korla, the distance is 750 km so they are not mutually supportive. In western Tibet, there is only one airfield, Gargunsa. If Gargunsa is bombed by the Indian Air Force, there will be a gap of 1,500 km between Hotan and nearest airfield Hoping.”

    Group Capt (Retd) Chhatwal concludes by making a pertinent point: “There is another limitation which they have. In the airfield, when you park aircraft for fighter operations, they have to be in blast protected shelters - concrete shelters. China doesn’t have any blast protected shelters at any of the airfields. After Doklam they have realised their mistake and have now started building these in Kongka Dzong (Lhasa) airfield.”
     
    https://www.timesnownews.com/india/article/india-china-stand-off-a-comparison-of-the-military-and-air-defence-prowess/597635

    However, Indians don't see the forest for the trees. I have never heard a single Indian analyst connect the dots in this way: Doesn't the lack of military infrastructure and resources indicate there is no strategy by China to provoke a limited war? Indian strategists to the contrary at the start of the standoff generally assumed China planned to fight a limited war or launch some other kind of belligerence.

    The credibility of the Indian media has carried that malevolent China narrative around the world with Karlin seeming to adopt the Indian point of view about Chinese intentions. In some ways, the level of global trust in Indian newsprint might be India's best advantage. As Saker pointed out big power warfare nowadays is a bit kinetic and a huge information contest follows.

    Regardless of caste borne elan of the Indian officer corps or China's lack of military preparedness near the border, I think GDP, GDP per capita and military spending are the metrics that trump everything else.
  101. songbird says:
    June 17, 2020 at 3:05 pm GMT • 100 Words   
    @Jatt Arya
    @neutral

    You have light & dark in same family, tribe is real conflict. Or do brown haired Euros fight blondes?

    Race & nationality (or lack of) from a Christian perspective is of potential gene pool.
    Christianity doesn't limit marriage by ancestry and has traditionally let women pick who they want.

    That is disgusting and ghey||


    Inter-caste marriage = death
    Don't care for your opinion whether Curry Muslim, Nigger Christian or Huwhyte Christian is better.
    They're all equally invalid,
     
    https://twitter.com/tishtriya/status/961130385127198720



    Liberal race mixing propaganda is originally church propaganda

    "When the best interests of society required the unification of the numerous tribes and peoples which had settled on the soil of the Roman Empire. By overthrowing the barriers between inimical families and races, ruinous internecine warfare was diminished and greater peace and harmony secured among the newly-converted Christians."

     

    https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04264a.htm


    The church also curtailed parents’ abilities to retain kinship ties through arranged marriages by prohibiting unions in which the bride didn’t explicitly agree to the union.

    Among the anthropologically defined 356 contemporary societies of Euro-Asia and Africa, there is a large and significant negative correlation between Christianization (for at least 500 years) and the absence of clans and lineages; the level of commercialization, class stratification, and state formation are insignificant.”
     
    https://hbdchick.wordpress.com/2011/04/04/whatever-happened-to-european-tribes/


    In other words, the Church promoted consensual and egalitarian marriage relations based on the free will of individual men and women. This is what Siedentop means by the Catholic "invention of individualism".
     
    https://www.eurocanadian.ca/2020/04/kevin-macdonald-hail-catholic-5church-forcing-monogamy-upon-nobility.html

    Individualism, race-mixing, feminism & globalism.
    Christian or Liberal?
    You decide.
    What's the difference?

    Replies: @songbird

    In the days of sail, Christianity allowed the tiny nation of Portugal to defeat Islamic navies thousands of miles away from the Portuguese homeland, thus gaining control of the Indian Ocean, and arguably becoming a boon to Hindus and Sikhs in the way that they diminished Muslim power.

    One of the secrets was the bells built for cathedrals which required advanced metallurgy. These techniques were turned to the development of powerful artillery – it is hardly cucked, when you are blowing Arabs and Turks sky-high, and taking over their trade.

    Of course, now Portugal looks like Brazil, so you may have a point. It may be that the Church allowed them to become too powerful, and that they would have been better of leaving Africa to the Arabs.

  102. @DB Cooper
    @Mr. XYZ

    India has no business in that part of the territory, period. India should vacate the northeast in general and NEFA in particular. Many insurgency groups are operating in the northeast vying for independence from India. The Nagas for example has been fighting for its independence from day one. Unlike the case of Tibet, these are 100% indigenous and homegrown with zero foreign (Western) involvements and agitations.

    Replies: @Jatt Arya, @showmethereal, @Not Only Wrathful, @Colin Wright

    Bizarre CCP trolling.

  103. @neutral
    @Vishnugupta

    Your common problems with Muslims in the greater scheme of things are close to nothing compared to what the jews pose as a threat to India.

    And this Muslim/Hindu conflict is nonsense anyway, they are both racially the same type, a Muslim can marry a Hindu and the children can become either of the two religions, I don't see how they are any less Indian. You can't say the same about a white marrying a non white however.

    Replies: @Jatt Arya, @Korenchkin

    This post is a good summary why nobody gives a shit about white nationalist opinions

    • Agree: reiner Tor
  104. Tor597 says:
    June 17, 2020 at 3:09 pm GMT • 100 Words   
    @Vishnugupta
    @DB Cooper

    I said territorial disputes..not land border dispute.

    China has territorial disputes with India, Vietnam, Malaysia,Indonesia,Japan among others.

    Just like you claim all of independent UN recognized country of Mongolia as chinese territory there are other nutcase Chinese nationalists who claim Vladivostok and parts of Siberia(Qing Dynasty era historic claim).

    Therefore your assertion that India has problems with most of its neighbours but China does not stands disproved.No amount of screeching on your part will change this fact.

    Speaking of things disgusting have you started a nationwide campaign against eating bats,dogs,cats,cockroaches and other similar delicacies yet?

    (Apologies to most Chinese commenters reading this for the last statement but this one has been begging to be shown a mirror for quite some time now)

    Replies: @Tor597

    I am against China eating dogs and cats, but are you really in a position to call out others for being gross when your entire country sickens the rest of the world?

    So many clips I can bring up, but everything from not being able to shit in a toilet to drinking cow urine.

    Gimme a break. You hindu nationals are hard to tolerate.

    • Agree: showmethereal
    • Replies: @Vishnugupta
    @Tor597

    You may want to see who started it before jumping to conclusions. I respect Chinese as a people and have no hesitation in stating that they have done better than us.I also have had several meaningful exchanges with Chinese commenters on this very blog.

    This was a rare retaliation to a particularly odious Chinese commenter which I have clarified in the comment itself.

  105. @Anatoly Karlin
    @Daniel Chieh

    You're obviously closer to the mark than A123, but I am not sure China vs. India will be such a complete wipe.

    China's superiority in 4th gen + fighters is only twofold, and Indian pilots are pretty good: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cope_India

    Average Indian < average Chinese, but like China, India gets to select from a billion people, and its caste system has ensured subgroups with high IQ, as well as "martial spirit." The latter are certainly overrepresented within the Indian armed forces, though I assume there's a problem with the former (Indian high IQ tend to be apatride - even more than usual for this group).

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @A123, @last straw, @china-russia-all-the-way

    I suppose ultimately that I have to do more research into India’s industrial capabilities; there’s something just very strange about the unimaginable quagmire that their military systems undergo, whether the anti-ballistic missile system I mentioned or the painful and now halted development of the Su-57 when India pulled out on Russia abruptly after claiming the SU-57 was “too expensive, poorly engineered and powered by old and unreliable engines”

    The Russian version of the Su-57 reportedly is simpler than the Indian version was. The latter included Indian avionics and compatibility with a wider range of weapons. But the Indian fighter existed only on paper.

    https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/why-india-rejected-russia%E2%80%99s-su-57-stealth-fighter-146771

    Its one thing to play around with weapons acquisition, but war is a very tail-heavy activity these days and it suggests a fundamental lack of communication and coordination in the armed forces. Lacking that, its hard to see how it can conduct any major modern warfare – obviously small arms and light infantry are different and quite self-sufficient, with enough martial spirit to make it work well, but that is of reduced importance in modern warfare(if unrestricted).

    • Replies: @Jatt Arya
    @Daniel Chieh

    Feature not a bug.

    India only recently appointed a CDS after decades of wrangling,
    Liberal elites know the rural folk want their heads and are scared of a coup||

    https://www.reddit.com/r/MilitaryPorn/comments/goi6xt/lt_gen_then_lt_col_harbaksh_singh_during_1965/

    Reply to songbird & tor below I'm not responding to anymore juvenile insults,
    if you want to fuck around we're not hard to find.

    https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/720496177291984896/722835718959005716/EY4oQUOWsAAhEnb.png

    Songbird, Indian metallurgy was ahead of the west till early 20th C.
    Will be again shortly, since kneepads are made of foam & rubber.
    If you can't see how letting women fuck anyone is cucked, then go kneel.

    Marathas btfo'd Portuguese navy for decades.
    One of the pirates of the caribbean is a Maratha Naval Admiral.
    Shiva Ji Maratha beheaded many Padres as they would burn & loot temples in the 10,000s.

    Tor, stfu any Hindu with a spine is a "Hindu nationalist" any Sikh you don't like is "Khalistani"
    India not being safe for whites is a feature not a bug.

    , @reiner Tor
    @Daniel Chieh

    They did manage to finish some projects, like the Brahmos (I believe jointly with Russia) or the nuclear submarine (again, with Russian help). Also they have a space program, and built nukes and ballistic missiles. I’m pretty sure that they would be a mishmash of a few fantastic achievements, lots of mediocrity and also a number of highly ridiculous, idiotic failures.

    Replies: @last straw

  106. Tor597 says:
    June 17, 2020 at 3:17 pm GMT • 100 Words   
    @Vishnugupta
    Well I don't see why relocation of white families is required.We have plenty of foreigners in India.I assume they are here because the money they earn justifies them working here.

    From what expats I interact with in Gurgaon (suburb of Delhi) tell me us as long as you stick to the right places there are no serious problems though yes Indians do stare at them more.And before this lockdown would go out for drinks with them every few weeks so this is not some PC version of facts I'm getting.One korean expat got his kids here because IB schools are so much cheaper in India.

    India so far has competitive and relatively large scale manufacturing capabilities in Pharma,automobiles and auto components and petrochemicals.Other sectors are lagging behind other emerging markets but some notable recent successes include smartphone manufacturing (Samsung recently opened what is globally its largest assembly plant in India recently)...

    Replies: @Swarthy Greek, @Tor597

    Its not about relocating to India. Its more about having to travel several times a year there, and being able to bring your family along.

    I have done this several times in China for business and never felt like my family was unsafe. But there is no way in hell I would bring them to India.

    You say certain parts are safe. That is true about Detroit and Africa as well. Certain multinationals like Samsung can send their employees there and they will get 4 star hotels.

    But small and medium sized businesses are not going to go to India to do business.

    As far as the industries you mentioned, Mexico has these as well and so does Vietnam. Both these countries are far better alternatives than India.

  107. @Tor597
    @Vishnugupta

    I am against China eating dogs and cats, but are you really in a position to call out others for being gross when your entire country sickens the rest of the world?

    So many clips I can bring up, but everything from not being able to shit in a toilet to drinking cow urine.

    Gimme a break. You hindu nationals are hard to tolerate.

    Replies: @Vishnugupta

    You may want to see who started it before jumping to conclusions. I respect Chinese as a people and have no hesitation in stating that they have done better than us.I also have had several meaningful exchanges with Chinese commenters on this very blog.

    This was a rare retaliation to a particularly odious Chinese commenter which I have clarified in the comment itself.

    • Agree: reiner Tor
  108. @Znzn
    The reason why right wing conservative men put the Chinese on a pedestal is simply because they want to have sex with Chinese women, plus since they have not been to China aside from the Tier 1 cities, they have not encountered Chinese proles, who are honestly no smarter than rural European proles.

    Replies: @Europe Europa

    Average European IQ is lower than the average Chinese IQ though, if their stats can be taken as representative of the whole population. The range of average IQ across different European nations is about 102 to 89, so the European average as a whole is going to be below 100. This is not taking into account majority Muslim nations like Albania and Bosnia which would lower the average even further.

    The average IQ in China is generally reported at around 104, there isn’t a single European nation that has an average IQ that high.

    • Replies: @Znzn
    @Europe Europa

    How much is the IQ of Europeans being weighed down by youths that are vibrant? Especially since IQ estimates are for school age kids that are majority non-white in most Western European countries anyway? Plus my point stands, if China has a median IQ of 104, and China has a population of 1.4 billion, that still means that there are 500 million Chinese with an IQ at or below 90. What is the IQ of White Western Germans or White French and White Austrians of age 25 to 45?

  109. @Jatt Arya
    @neutral

    Race is a social construct, caste is real।।
    You're not demonstrating anything but how 'whites' get conquered by more tribal races beginning (ideologically) with jews and progressing to blacks and arabs।।



    https://manasataramgini.wordpress.com/2016/03/13/some-notes-on-the-heathen-lithuania-and-its-demise/

    You're only showing an ignorance of your own history if you think Western Europe hasn't been using Islam against Slavs & Indians for centuries now।।

    The abject reality is that Negrolatrous whites, muslims and blacks are all on the same side।।

    I don't know why all the cribbing about jews. I think it's obvious at this point that jews are demons and blacks animals.

    Why speak of their conduct in the same sense as humans?

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾ।।ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ।।

    https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/720496177291984896/722777189258625064/ETe-k9LWAAYMkbK.png

    Replies: @neutral, @Tor597, @Not Only Wrathful

    So your actually defending the caste system? How barbaric.

    • Troll: Jatt Arya
  110. A123 says:
    June 17, 2020 at 3:24 pm GMT • 200 Words   
    @BS
    @A123

    Hong Kong accounts for 2% of China's national GDP and has zero essential industries. The CCP could choose to liquidate every man, woman and child in Hong Kong and the country wouldn't even notice it. Instead they're using it as an example for domestic consumption of what happens when you allow Western subversion to spread unchecked. Any "PR nightmare" is this and this alone - do you think the CCP really cares about what some homosexual living in New York who cries when he reads about the latest fake atrocity porn about HK rioters in the NYT thinks?

    Replies: @A123

    do you think the CCP really cares about what … the NYT thinks?

    Well…. No one cares what The New York Dhimmi Times of Islam thinks. So on that point I have to agree with you.

    Do you think that China cares about the Anti-China fear it is creating in nations other than the U.S.? Its massive projects in Africa are already viewed by many in those nations as a not so subtle form of invasion.

    Who wants to do business with a highly unreliable, short sighted China that:

    -1- Strong armed the UK into handover?
    -2- Did nothing to head off a 100% predictable economic contraction?
    -3- Goes back on its word by ending ‘two systems, one nation’?

    #1 & #2 predate Xi, but still stain Chinese credibility on a broad front. Xi’s embrace of #3 oath breaking, shows willingness to change deals to obtain personally desired outcomes. Is this Xi’s role model?

    Troll Chieh’s plan for a military first strike against Taiwan would have even worse consequences. It probably would not be called an embargo, but almost every nation would begin reducing or cutting trade ties with violent, predatory China. It would effectively end the One Belt One Road initiative as potential partners would accurately perceive such engagement as a prelude to Red Chinese invasion.

    PEACE 😇

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    @A123

    And because of Crimea, sanctions happened and Putin was overthrown to the joyous clapping and tear-stained eyes of gender fluid Christian respectors of St. Fentanyl Floyd.

    Yeah right.

  111. @A123
    @BS


    do you think the CCP really cares about what ... the NYT thinks?
     
    Well.... No one cares what The New York Dhimmi Times of Islam thinks. So on that point I have to agree with you.

    Do you think that China cares about the Anti-China fear it is creating in nations other than the U.S.? Its massive projects in Africa are already viewed by many in those nations as a not so subtle form of invasion.

    Who wants to do business with a highly unreliable, short sighted China that:

    -1- Strong armed the UK into handover?
    -2- Did nothing to head off a 100% predictable economic contraction?
    -3- Goes back on its word by ending 'two systems, one nation'?

    #1 & #2 predate Xi, but still stain Chinese credibility on a broad front. Xi's embrace of #3 oath breaking, shows willingness to change deals to obtain personally desired outcomes. Is this Xi's role model?

    https://youtu.be/jsW9MlYu31g?t=1

    Troll Chieh's plan for a military first strike against Taiwan would have even worse consequences. It probably would not be called an embargo, but almost every nation would begin reducing or cutting trade ties with violent, predatory China. It would effectively end the One Belt One Road initiative as potential partners would accurately perceive such engagement as a prelude to Red Chinese invasion.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    And because of Crimea, sanctions happened and Putin was overthrown to the joyous clapping and tear-stained eyes of gender fluid Christian respectors of St. Fentanyl Floyd.

    Yeah right.

  112. Jatt Arya says:
    June 17, 2020 at 3:33 pm GMT • 200 Words   
    @Daniel Chieh
    @Anatoly Karlin

    I suppose ultimately that I have to do more research into India's industrial capabilities; there's something just very strange about the unimaginable quagmire that their military systems undergo, whether the anti-ballistic missile system I mentioned or the painful and now halted development of the Su-57 when India pulled out on Russia abruptly after claiming the SU-57 was "too expensive, poorly engineered and powered by old and unreliable engines"


    The Russian version of the Su-57 reportedly is simpler than the Indian version was. The latter included Indian avionics and compatibility with a wider range of weapons. But the Indian fighter existed only on paper.
     
    https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/why-india-rejected-russia%E2%80%99s-su-57-stealth-fighter-146771

    Its one thing to play around with weapons acquisition, but war is a very tail-heavy activity these days and it suggests a fundamental lack of communication and coordination in the armed forces. Lacking that, its hard to see how it can conduct any major modern warfare - obviously small arms and light infantry are different and quite self-sufficient, with enough martial spirit to make it work well, but that is of reduced importance in modern warfare(if unrestricted).

    Replies: @Jatt Arya, @reiner Tor

    Feature not a bug.

    India only recently appointed a CDS after decades of wrangling,
    Liberal elites know the rural folk want their heads and are scared of a coup||

    Lt Gen (then Lt. Col) Harbaksh Singh during 1965 Indo-Pak War. He is the only Officer who demoted himself (from Col to Lt Col.) so he can join his boys in the battlefield. He was also awarded Vir Chakra in 1948 Indo-Pak War.[600×826] from MilitaryPorn

    Reply to songbird & tor below I’m not responding to anymore juvenile insults,
    if you want to fuck around we’re not hard to find.


    [MORE]

    Songbird, Indian metallurgy was ahead of the west till early 20th C.
    Will be again shortly, since kneepads are made of foam & rubber.
    If you can’t see how letting women fuck anyone is cucked, then go kneel.

    Marathas btfo’d Portuguese navy for decades.
    One of the pirates of the caribbean is a Maratha Naval Admiral.
    Shiva Ji Maratha beheaded many Padres as they would burn & loot temples in the 10,000s.

    Tor, stfu any Hindu with a spine is a “Hindu nationalist” any Sikh you don’t like is “Khalistani”
    India not being safe for whites is a feature not a bug.

  113. lin says:
    June 17, 2020 at 3:38 pm GMT • 400 Words   

    As a long time observer of india, let me repeat:
    –Since Independence, Bharat has been trying to project the image of an emerging major power(and recently superpower).
    **Apparently hard power is hard to come by, so they often maintain they’re this or that soft power ‘spiritual civilisation’ which they did have some success during the hippie movement.
    **It’s the only country that acquire an aircraft carrier in 1961, six years before they got their first submarine,WHy? I guess an aircraft carrier is good optics while subs usually submerge out of sight(Indian soldier in the 1962 sino-india war complained they only had lee Enfield bolt-action rifle while the Chinese soldiers had semi-automatics).
    **India detonated its first atomic bomb in 1974(10 yrs after china did), claimed to be a ‘peaceful’ bomb but didn’t weaponise until 20 yrs later the hindu nationalists won the election and started ‘Bharat Uday'(india shining)movement and started weaponizing their nukes. Pakistan also went nuclear and thus made previous indian military edge over Pakistan irrelevant because any war between the 2 can go nuke very easily. Mr. Vajpayee sure was Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb
    **The 1962 sino-india war which left the hindus such painful scar could’ve been avoided if Nehru realized bigpowerdom has a schedule
    ………..
    Hindus nationalists(of which Jatt Arya is a good example)have been suffering severe mental malaise since 1947. I browse a number of hindu sites and the amount of chest thumping is amazing
    **recently they complained indian made bullet proof vests for indian soldiers endanger the lives of the latters because the manufacturer uses imported Chinese materials.
    “Lives of 1, 86,318 Indian armies personal are at risk. The protective armor which helps them to save their life has now become a threat to them as the raw materials of the bulletproof jackets are taken from China. Although it was clarified by the officials of the manufacturing company that the quality of the vests is not compromised and the vests made up of Chinese raw material also meet quality standards, whereas, army officials choose to remain silent on this matter.”
    https://thepolicytimes.com/lives-of-indian-soldiers-are-at-risk-as-the-chinese-materials-find-way-to-the-indian-army-bulletproof-vests/
    **I’m not surprised that china makes cheap bullet proof vests because of the scale and efficiency of Chinese manufacture but it’s extremely puszzling that Chinese also make cheap incense sticks(for hindu/buddist rites)
    https://www.financialexpress.com/industry/agarbatti-imports-restricted-amid-significant-increase-in-shipments-from-china-vietnam/1692212/

    • Replies: @lin
    @lin

    The dream of generations of hindu nationalists:
    https://scroll.in/article/948319/india-superpower-2020-tracing-the-brief-history-of-a-spectacularly-incorrect-prediction
    (I personally have lots of respect for Mr. Abdul Kalam; he wasn't a real rocket scientist as portrayed but he brought back to india a copy of blue print of US Scout rocket which the first indian satellite launcher was based on)

    https://s01.sgp1.cdn.digitaloceanspaces.com/article/133841-whqbhlslvp-1577798064.jpg

  114. songbird says:
    June 17, 2020 at 3:41 pm GMT • 200 Words   

    Interesting to compare film industries. Neither seems to have much of an export market compared to H-wood. Top-grossing Chinese films earn a lot more, but they seem to have more foreign intrusion into their market. An Indian hit Dangal, even appears at #45 over there.

    I wish one or the other would make a movie where the Statue of Unity was hit by a nuke – it is big enough to make for an interesting SFX shot. Each should make a movie, where they were at war with the other fellow – would be good viewing – but regrettably, I don’t think the Chinese censors would approve it.

    Is Indian disunity a strength? Maybe, it would make it difficult to deploy the national guard to enforce desegregation there. Maybe, the historical diversity makes poz more difficult to spread. Or is it worse, since it encourages the adoption of English? India should consider putting a tax on the English language to pay for anti-poz police.

    • Agree: Jatt Arya
  115. @Daniel Chieh
    Nothing you said connects in any way to sanity. Let's just pick a few.

    The PRC should have easily foreseen that removing HK from UK Law would have dire financial consequences. And, they failed they to do so.
     

    They foresaw many things. And they don't care - because HK has outlived its usefulness. The "dire financial consequences" such as it was already had happened when it became too much of a political risk for companies to remain. Nor have you considered the possibility that the CCP is completely fine with wrecking HK so that they can essentially repurchase it for the cheap.

    Control is the single greatest motivator of the CCP. An HK that was out of control is essentially useless to them, and an active liability. Whatever "PR" consequences(which China really doesn't care much about, especially from innately hostile actors), are much less muted than tolerating an active liability.


    Xi looks at HK, and has the intelligence to grasp the long term impact of the PRC breaking another economy and impoverishing the Han Chinese of Taiwan.
     
    Ultimately, if Taiwan is not cooperative, it is also a liability and if it is heavily populated by Han Chinese, it is in fact seen as an insufferable insult that they would choose to align themselves with ancient enemies such as the Japanese: traitors. The long-term impact of PRC unifying Taiwan is, within Chinese terms and this might be unfortunate, but it would be the summation of the Mandate of Heaven for quite some time. Its a great accomplishment, and great accomplishments are how the Mandate is perceived.

    Rather than idly speculate, try to read up on Chinese history and you'll see that the habit of endless deathmatches in order to have a single China is the norm.

    If Xi orders the conquest of Tiawan, he will personally own 100% of the downside. We all see that you believe Xi is an utter moron, willing to make obvious and easily avoidable errors.
     

    The most easily avoided error is to ignore anything that someone like you would say.

    But for starters, Xi is not some sort of Emperor. He has outsized impact but Chinese politics also has multiple factions and he ultimately have to be responsive to the population(to which a good percentage are ultranationalists), and figures such as Zhao Lijian and "wolf warrior" diplomacy are great examples of the increasing prominence of -much more aggressive- politicians. Even top members of the politburo are more "revisionist" and aggressive than he is, and he owns all of their decisions and choices.


    As the history you either do not know or cannot understand shows, that type of air superiority is of limited value when dealing with dispersed light infantry in hostile terrain.
     
    That does not matter.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Vietnamese_conflicts,_1979%E2%80%931991

    China is completely willing to fight an war of essentially no specific gain, because in any trade of material versus a less industrialized country, China comes out much stronger at the end via attrition. Knockout blows are unnecessary so as long as strategic advantage is realized.

    Replies: @utu, @animalogic, @A123, @Not Only Wrathful, @Astuteobservor II

    Your points as regards Hong Kong and Taiwan are in direct contradiction. If Taiwan siding with Japan is an insufferable insult, then HK siding with everyone but the CCP is much more so.

    Your comparison, of the Chinese aggression on Vietnam, with a potential conflict with India, is also inapt, for the purposes you used it for.

    Vietnam as good as won, despite being a far less insurmountable target for China than India would be.

    The CCP would have to be bonkers to make any serious aggression on India. That you can’t see it, suggests a serious problem with your perception.

    Your rationale of wars of attrition making more industrialised countries stronger, has no basis in history. Especially ones that don’t end in the total defeat of the enemy, which China would be completely incapable of doing…except perhaps by moving to some sort of total war footing and with a lot of luck and no outside intervention; but China would destroy itself to do that.

    I perhaps shouldn’t be taking this whole conversation seriously. Both Chinese and Indians are real men and both countries are perfect and have no flaws; except that they are too good, or smart or amazing or something…

    • Agree: AaronB
    • Replies: @showmethereal
    @Not Only Wrathful

    How did Vietnam win when it couldn't get back it's territory for over 10 years until they signed an official agreement?

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh

  116. Hartnell says:
    June 17, 2020 at 3:50 pm GMT • 100 Words   

    My money is still on India. I watched a combat simulation once of what would happen in a sparring match between the two and India pretty much came out on top due to the favourable usage of their terrain. China would try to advance but would end up losing valuable equipment. In other words, a major land war between the two would be a huge logistical defeat for China.

  117. @Jatt Arya
    @neutral

    Race is a social construct, caste is real।।
    You're not demonstrating anything but how 'whites' get conquered by more tribal races beginning (ideologically) with jews and progressing to blacks and arabs।।



    https://manasataramgini.wordpress.com/2016/03/13/some-notes-on-the-heathen-lithuania-and-its-demise/

    You're only showing an ignorance of your own history if you think Western Europe hasn't been using Islam against Slavs & Indians for centuries now।।

    The abject reality is that Negrolatrous whites, muslims and blacks are all on the same side।।

    I don't know why all the cribbing about jews. I think it's obvious at this point that jews are demons and blacks animals.

    Why speak of their conduct in the same sense as humans?

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾ।।ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ।।

    https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/720496177291984896/722777189258625064/ETe-k9LWAAYMkbK.png

    Replies: @neutral, @Tor597, @Not Only Wrathful

    I don’t know why all the cribbing about jews. I think it’s obvious at this point that jews are demons and blacks animals.

    That is certainly the role they play within the psyche of part of the Western far right.

  118. Isn’t the Indian caste system essentially a form of racial hierarchy? Although no one sees it like that because “racial” rhetoric only applies to whites/Europeans, and no one perceives even entirely Aryan Indians as white.

    It seems the caste system is essentially about the Indians with most Aryan ancestry subjugating those with the most Dravidian ancestry, but no one sees light skinned Aryan Indians subjugating dark skinned Dravidians as racist because it’s just seen as Indians subjugating Indians, not in the same context of whites/Europeans subjugating blacks or other non-whites.

  119. lin says:
    June 17, 2020 at 3:55 pm GMT • 100 Words   
    @lin
    As a long time observer of india, let me repeat:
    --Since Independence, Bharat has been trying to project the image of an emerging major power(and recently superpower).
    **Apparently hard power is hard to come by, so they often maintain they're this or that soft power 'spiritual civilisation' which they did have some success during the hippie movement.
    **It's the only country that acquire an aircraft carrier in 1961, six years before they got their first submarine,WHy? I guess an aircraft carrier is good optics while subs usually submerge out of sight(Indian soldier in the 1962 sino-india war complained they only had lee Enfield bolt-action rifle while the Chinese soldiers had semi-automatics).
    **India detonated its first atomic bomb in 1974(10 yrs after china did), claimed to be a 'peaceful' bomb but didn't weaponise until 20 yrs later the hindu nationalists won the election and started 'Bharat Uday'(india shining)movement and started weaponizing their nukes. Pakistan also went nuclear and thus made previous indian military edge over Pakistan irrelevant because any war between the 2 can go nuke very easily. Mr. Vajpayee sure was Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb
    **The 1962 sino-india war which left the hindus such painful scar could've been avoided if Nehru realized bigpowerdom has a schedule
    ………..
    Hindus nationalists(of which Jatt Arya is a good example)have been suffering severe mental malaise since 1947. I browse a number of hindu sites and the amount of chest thumping is amazing
    **recently they complained indian made bullet proof vests for indian soldiers endanger the lives of the latters because the manufacturer uses imported Chinese materials.
    "Lives of 1, 86,318 Indian armies personal are at risk. The protective armor which helps them to save their life has now become a threat to them as the raw materials of the bulletproof jackets are taken from China. Although it was clarified by the officials of the manufacturing company that the quality of the vests is not compromised and the vests made up of Chinese raw material also meet quality standards, whereas, army officials choose to remain silent on this matter."
    https://thepolicytimes.com/lives-of-indian-soldiers-are-at-risk-as-the-chinese-materials-find-way-to-the-indian-army-bulletproof-vests/
    **I'm not surprised that china makes cheap bullet proof vests because of the scale and efficiency of Chinese manufacture but it's extremely puszzling that Chinese also make cheap incense sticks(for hindu/buddist rites)
    https://www.financialexpress.com/industry/agarbatti-imports-restricted-amid-significant-increase-in-shipments-from-china-vietnam/1692212/

    Replies: @lin

    The dream of generations of hindu nationalists:
    https://scroll.in/article/948319/india-superpower-2020-tracing-the-brief-history-of-a-spectacularly-incorrect-prediction
    (I personally have lots of respect for Mr. Abdul Kalam; he wasn’t a real rocket scientist as portrayed but he brought back to india a copy of blue print of US Scout rocket which the first indian satellite launcher was based on)

  120. @Jatt Arya
    @Jatt Arya

    Diplomatically India only has to show a willingness to fight while China has to win|

    China seems to have taken more casualties from the landslide||

    Endia allowed China to build reserves for months||
    Monsoon will arrive in NW in 7-10 days||
    China had to do something now or wait till next year||

    @DB Cooper

    You'll hate Hindu pagans till the last white man is extinguished by a horde of africans & muslims||

    We get it,

    https://www.academia.edu/2259770/The_Blood_of_Martyrs_The_British_Concept_of_Horror_in_India_and_Imperial_Ideology

    Replies: @Rev. Spooner

    The place where the skirmishes are happening is an high altitude desert and not affected by monsoon. As for Arunachal Pradesh in the north east, I dont think it’s going to escalate to that level and spread a thousand miles east. Both India and China are pragmatic and even though Modi is not very intelligent, he has competent advisors. This is just a bit of theater for domestic/public consumption.

  121. @Vishnugupta
    @Swarthy Greek

    How is our indigenous nuclear sub a massive failure?

    Its presently on patrol.

    The follow on sub is undergoing sea trials..

    Arjun tank is a failure yes.

    But I would not classify things like our space launch vehicles and satellites,agni missile system, shivalik/delhi/ vishakapatnam class naval ships,ALH and LCH helicopters,Param Supercomputers etc. as failures.

    LCA is massively delayed because of many issues but is presently being inducted and being improved in tranches..it is our first fighter plane project so obviously there are problems but an arjun tank type failure it is not.

    Also our auto industry is far more than simple assembly we build engines and most mechanical components of mainline BMW,MB,Audi and other brands in India.

    Our indigenous brands like Tata and Mahindra make fairly competent mainstream cars and SUVs.

    https://www.autocarindia.com/cars/tata/harrier

    Replies: @Swarthy Greek

    Your indigenous SSBN is basically a kilo class submarine with a nuclear reactor. It’s essentially a 1970s design that carries only 4 full-sized ICBMs and is still not in service. The PLA Navy was able to design an SSBN in the midst of the cultural revolution and put it in service in 1981 without any foreign input, whereas India hasn’t finalised its sub despite getting massive technology transfer from Rubin (Russia) and DCNS (France). Indian engineering sucks, period. India should focus on public works, getting a proper , professional civil service and beefing up internal security instead of dreaming of standing up to China.

    • Replies: @Vishnugupta
    @Swarthy Greek

    No it is not based on a kilo.Incidentally miniaturizing a reactor to fit inside a kilo would be quite a technical achievement.

    It is a 6000 tonne nuclear submarine a kilo is 2800 tonne ssk.

    It is in service as in there are regular 50-70 day patrols. It is presently armed with k 4 slbms 4 each..

    We will build 3 more of this same class then we go to S5 which is a proper SSBN 13000 tonne displacement 16 K6 SLBMs...

    Our N sub has benefitted indirectly from DCNS Scorpene deal the subtics combat management system was the base for its CMS and Russian technical assistance was sought is specific areas (heat exchanger, acoustic quieting of the propeller etc but the design is Indian and frankly not bad at all for a first attempt but yeah obviously it's no Ohio class/Borei class SSBN...

    You picked the wrong example to run down Indian engineering capabilities.

    We will eventually have a fleet of 4-6 S5 SSBNs with 16 SLBMs each our goal has never been to match China just to be well armed enough to not be completely dependent on a foreign power for our own security.

    We also have our own operational GPS satellite cluster btw IRNSS.

  122. Rahan says:
    June 17, 2020 at 4:04 pm GMT • 300 Words   

    Let’s remember that while China can count only on itself in terms of high-tech, India has Japan, the US, and the UK. With this kind of backing, it is automatically equal to China, without having to make the effort that China makes. As long as the backing is there, India will have tech and intel more than equal to that of China, without having to work for it.

    In the 21st century, India is going to be an increasingly important player in the “Sealand” civilization, providing the demography (and resultant biomaterial for various big data and vaccination research), while Japan and the US/UK providing the tech.

    And Hong Kong and Taiwan providing “proper Chinese” people for absorption as well.

    So India vs China is in effect a combination of the “1st World leaders + India” vs China.

    Not unlike when Hitler invaded the USSR, people tend to forget that before that he had already consolidated the European continent for his own needs, through war and alliance. Thus Stalin was faced not with “an attacking Germany”, but “an attacking Europe” with everything that entails as industrial capacity.

    And thus today, when China is being poked by India, or by Taiwan, or by Japan, it’s never just them. In each case it’s the whole developed world vs China. Minus, this time, continental Europe. But US+UK+Japan+India+minor allies is also more than formidable.

    At least China doesn’t have to worry about its northern border, that’s something.

    …It’s probably time to read up on the Italy/Austria warfare history in WWI and WWII, to see how mountain border warfare played out.

    • Troll: Swarthy Greek
    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @Rahan


    Thus Stalin was faced not with “an attacking Germany”, but “an attacking Europe” with everything that entails as industrial capacity.
     
    That’s not entirely correct. French and Belgian GDP dropped significantly after the Germans occupied it (mostly because of the British blockade, but also because of other factors), and it’s not like the Germans could use all French resources the way they could use their own resources, especially not in the southern part of the country. They had to deliver Sweden coal and weapons to receive anything from them, and the same is true of Sweden and even Italy. Even countries nominally part of the war effort only spent a fraction of their resources on the war. For example Hungary and Romania kept a large portion of their respective armies on their common border against each other, up until 1944, when Romania switched sides.
    , @Tor597
    @Rahan

    What I fear the most is a semi alliance with India, and then India gets the shit kicked out of her.

    And then a bunch of Indians move to the west as refugees. This would be a total disaster for the west.

  123. @Daniel Chieh
    @Anatoly Karlin

    I suppose ultimately that I have to do more research into India's industrial capabilities; there's something just very strange about the unimaginable quagmire that their military systems undergo, whether the anti-ballistic missile system I mentioned or the painful and now halted development of the Su-57 when India pulled out on Russia abruptly after claiming the SU-57 was "too expensive, poorly engineered and powered by old and unreliable engines"


    The Russian version of the Su-57 reportedly is simpler than the Indian version was. The latter included Indian avionics and compatibility with a wider range of weapons. But the Indian fighter existed only on paper.
     
    https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/why-india-rejected-russia%E2%80%99s-su-57-stealth-fighter-146771

    Its one thing to play around with weapons acquisition, but war is a very tail-heavy activity these days and it suggests a fundamental lack of communication and coordination in the armed forces. Lacking that, its hard to see how it can conduct any major modern warfare - obviously small arms and light infantry are different and quite self-sufficient, with enough martial spirit to make it work well, but that is of reduced importance in modern warfare(if unrestricted).

    Replies: @Jatt Arya, @reiner Tor

    They did manage to finish some projects, like the Brahmos (I believe jointly with Russia) or the nuclear submarine (again, with Russian help). Also they have a space program, and built nukes and ballistic missiles. I’m pretty sure that they would be a mishmash of a few fantastic achievements, lots of mediocrity and also a number of highly ridiculous, idiotic failures.

    • Replies: @last straw
    @reiner Tor

    Most of India's major military programs are miserable failures, such as the 20-30 year development of the Arjun main battle tank and the Tejas light fighter.

  124. Znzn says:
    June 17, 2020 at 4:16 pm GMT • 100 Words   
    @Europe Europa
    @Znzn

    Average European IQ is lower than the average Chinese IQ though, if their stats can be taken as representative of the whole population. The range of average IQ across different European nations is about 102 to 89, so the European average as a whole is going to be below 100. This is not taking into account majority Muslim nations like Albania and Bosnia which would lower the average even further.

    The average IQ in China is generally reported at around 104, there isn't a single European nation that has an average IQ that high.

    Replies: @Znzn

    How much is the IQ of Europeans being weighed down by youths that are vibrant? Especially since IQ estimates are for school age kids that are majority non-white in most Western European countries anyway? Plus my point stands, if China has a median IQ of 104, and China has a population of 1.4 billion, that still means that there are 500 million Chinese with an IQ at or below 90. What is the IQ of White Western Germans or White French and White Austrians of age 25 to 45?

  125. It would be interesting to know real casualties on both sides in the current clashes.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    @Erik Sieven


    It would be interesting to know real casualties on both sides in the current clashes.
     
    Does it matter? Each country has a billion more for the meat grinder.
  126. A123 says:
    June 17, 2020 at 4:39 pm GMT • 200 Words   
    @Anatoly Karlin
    @Daniel Chieh

    You're obviously closer to the mark than A123, but I am not sure China vs. India will be such a complete wipe.

    China's superiority in 4th gen + fighters is only twofold, and Indian pilots are pretty good: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cope_India

    Average Indian < average Chinese, but like China, India gets to select from a billion people, and its caste system has ensured subgroups with high IQ, as well as "martial spirit." The latter are certainly overrepresented within the Indian armed forces, though I assume there's a problem with the former (Indian high IQ tend to be apatride - even more than usual for this group).

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @A123, @last straw, @china-russia-all-the-way

    You’re obviously closer to the mark than A123, but I am not sure China vs. India will be such a complete wipe.

    AK,

    Perhaps I misunderstood the question. The original concept as I read it was, “Can China Defeat India?”

    I do not see anyway that China could seize control of India. It is too big, with too many troops and people. It would be the largest counterinsurgency quagmire in the history of modern warfare. Breaking India’s regular infantry would result in troops returning to their home towns. That would provide core skills to feed a Hindu guerilla counter offensive.

    Chinese air superiority would be helpful to their side. However, planes break things. They do not hold land. Even a complete ‘wipe’ of the Indian Air Force would not result in Chinese military victory over India.

    So, if the question is, “Can China Defeat India?” The answer is “No. It would almost certainly be a stalemate some kind.”
    _____

    If you want to envision a different question posing a more limited engagement we can look at it. However, the fact that both sides have nukes makes ‘limited’ a problematic concept. Mistakes could lead to unplanned escalation.

    The reason why India & Pakistan are stuck in a perpetual skirmish over Kashmir is the fact that escalation could lead to a thermonuclear exchange. As much as both sides want to win, the obvious lose-lose potential is easy to find.

    PEACE 😇

  127. So why doesn’t India have a widespread motorway network and HSR network like China?

  128. @Swarthy Greek
    @Vishnugupta

    Your indigenous SSBN is basically a kilo class submarine with a nuclear reactor. It's essentially a 1970s design that carries only 4 full-sized ICBMs and is still not in service. The PLA Navy was able to design an SSBN in the midst of the cultural revolution and put it in service in 1981 without any foreign input, whereas India hasn't finalised its sub despite getting massive technology transfer from Rubin (Russia) and DCNS (France). Indian engineering sucks, period. India should focus on public works, getting a proper , professional civil service and beefing up internal security instead of dreaming of standing up to China.

    Replies: @Vishnugupta

    No it is not based on a kilo.Incidentally miniaturizing a reactor to fit inside a kilo would be quite a technical achievement.

    It is a 6000 tonne nuclear submarine a kilo is 2800 tonne ssk.

    It is in service as in there are regular 50-70 day patrols. It is presently armed with k 4 slbms 4 each..

    We will build 3 more of this same class then we go to S5 which is a proper SSBN 13000 tonne displacement 16 K6 SLBMs…

    Our N sub has benefitted indirectly from DCNS Scorpene deal the subtics combat management system was the base for its CMS and Russian technical assistance was sought is specific areas (heat exchanger, acoustic quieting of the propeller etc but the design is Indian and frankly not bad at all for a first attempt but yeah obviously it’s no Ohio class/Borei class SSBN…

    You picked the wrong example to run down Indian engineering capabilities.

    We will eventually have a fleet of 4-6 S5 SSBNs with 16 SLBMs each our goal has never been to match China just to be well armed enough to not be completely dependent on a foreign power for our own security.

    We also have our own operational GPS satellite cluster btw IRNSS.

  129. @DB Cooper
    @Jason Liu

    "We’ve gone thousands of years without ever really fighting, not sure what the logic here is on either side."

    Thats because historically there is no such thing as India. India has existed for a total of seventy three years when in 1947 the British gifted the country they so assiduously created to the subcons. Now the subcons thanks their old master by conning them. See the comment from Europe Europa.

    Replies: @Rev. Spooner

    Thats because historically there is no such thing as India. India has existed for a total of seventy three years when in 1947 the British gifted the country they so assiduously created to the subcons.

    Wow Mr DB Cooper, you disregard historical accounts for technicalities. If we apply the same yardsticks, then Italy was the same, as was the USA, Russia and every country in the world except for some tiny Pacific atolls. Most countries were tiny fiefdoms that grew to become what they are today.
    As for India, the whole ancient world acknowledged India’s geographical location and approximate territorial borders long before they were even aware of the western barbarians.

    • Replies: @DB Cooper
    @Rev. Spooner

    Bunch of nonsense.

    Replies: @Rev. Spooner

  130. @songbird

    in 1971, the Soviet Navy helped deter the Americans from intervening against India in support of Pakistan
     
    I don't think America really cared about the sub-continent back then. Certainly not enough to get militarily involved in a Hindu-Muslim ethno-religious war, while simultaneously fighting a war in Vietnam. A little saber-rattling with the fleet is a different matter.

    Nuclear weapons make a lot of discussion of future conflict mute. Any future conflict between China and India is likely to be fought on K Street, as they wrangle over who controls the diminishing US.

    Replies: @Ian Smith, @nebulafox, @JohnPlywood

    as they wrangle over who controls the diminishing US.

    Have you been injecting methanol directly in to your brain or something?

  131. @Max Payne
    I have a 2-to-1 on a decisive Chinese victory on the next skirmish. Any takers?

    Replies: @Not Raul, @JohnPlywood, @Antonius

    They didn’t win the first, why would they win the second?

    Face it, China is a cucked society.

  132. @Jason Liu
    Given how competition with the US is heating up, this is either terrible timing by the CCP or good timing by India/US.

    We've gone thousands of years without ever really fighting, not sure what the logic here is on either side.

    Replies: @DB Cooper, @Showmethereal

    Do you for a minute believe India is doing this out of their own volition without “outside encouragement”?
    As to the Chinese side. South Tibet is in Indian hands. Chinese governments are judged by territorial integrity (not letting foreigners bully China) and quality of life. The first one is in play.

  133. @Vishnugupta
    This is unlikely to snowball into a shooting war.
    Both sides are pulling back and no cabinet level official in either country has made any hothead statement.

    What happened is that basically two platoons without direct senior officer supervision went at each other with clubs and other similar improvised implements.No knives and certainly no guns were used.

    Senior officers met immediately and have suspended all patrolling and have accelerated disengagement.

    This will result is greater alignment of India with the US security setup in Asia though we will not become a treaty ally.

    I think there is some internal power play in China resulting in China putting up an aggressive posture atleast a decade before facts on the ground warrant it.

    Even if there is a shooting war(non nuclear) which China wins it will not lead to structural failure of India or loss of core territories,it will enable Modi&Co the pretext to declare an emergency liquidate the opposition and sign up to the US alliance in Asia.India will likely be given much greater market and technology access by the us eu japan and likely develop into a serious long term enemy with a GDP of around 40% of the PRC by 2045.

    How does China benefit from this?

    Would it not be better from the Chinese POV to bide it's time for another 10-15 years and then impose its will on all its neighbours when the US is in no position to intervene and its relative strength makes resistance futile.

    Replies: @DB Cooper, @Tor597, @Showmethereal, @Meena

    India is already entering arms agreements with the US – which basically smacks Russia in the face. It also just signed agreements with Australia. There is no way the 5 Eyes will let China just keep climbing up the ladder without trying to impede them. They would have no quallms in India spilling its blood to accomplish that purpose either. India should realize that from British colonialism days.
    I hope both sides play it cool. In 1962 – a poor China who had beef with both the US and the Soviets – still went ahead and fought India. There is no need for either side to tempt fate again. Im not certain why the Indian media lives to beat the drum beat.
    Maybe if both sides let the soldiers have their wives or girlfriends come visit them on weekends the testosterone can have a better outlet than pummeling each other.

  134. @DB Cooper
    @utu

    Better yet the US should help Taiwan (aka Republic of China) return back to the mainland and help Republic of China reincorporate outer Mongolia (present day Mongolia) and South Tibet back into the Republic of China. Officially the Republic of China has never concedes outer Mongolia and has never recognized India's land grabbing of South Tibet and still regards outer Mongolia and South Tibet part of the Republic of China. In fact in 1987 when India made South Tibet a state and renamed it to the so called Arunachal Pradesh the government of Taiwan put out a statement vehemently denouncing India's travesty and vowed never of recognizing the so called Arunachal Pradesh as part of India.

    FYI Outer Mongolia was carved out from China because Mao was colluding with the Soviet Union and when Mao came to power he gifted outer Mongolia to his patron the Soviet Union as a Soviet satellite.

    South Tibet was invaded and annexed by India in 1951.

    Here is the map of the Republic of China (aka Taiwan)

    https://www.digitalcommonwealth.org/search/commonwealth:x633f939c

    Replies: @d dan, @Showmethereal

    I am no defender of Mao – but in reality the ceding of Outer Mongolia was a direct betrayal of Chiang Kai Shek by the US who negotiated with Stalin during WW2. Mao had no sway… Though yes he did recognize it when he did get to power (and Outer Manchuria).

  135. Why did the chinese attack the indians, did the indians cross the border, I sometimes watch english language news programs of indian channels on you tube, they are going ape shit over this lotsa propaganda and hyperbole from the anchors and guests,all they do is parrot trump and the american news medis they know nuthing about the the chinese whatever they know is from the net , before the internet they thought chinese were similar to mongols , now its Han this Han that, I have no doubt this shitstorm was started by the indians, one of the commentors on a indian military website was pissed that a indian reporter spilled the beans sayin modi was pissed with the army, that comment has been taken down.

  136. @A123
    @utu


    The US should seriously consider giving guarantees for Taiwan sovereignty.
     
    There is 0% motivation for Trump to raise those stakes. He is pulling back on U.S. Force deployments.

    More importantly, Trump does not want to distract U.S. unparalleled success over China in other areas. He is handing Xi defeat after defeat after defeat on the trade front. For example:

    -- USCMA -- reducing the permitted % of Chinese auto parts.
    -- Phase 1 of the China-US bilateral negotiations.
    -- Made in USA requirements for medical goods (PPE), pharmaceuticals, etc.

    The next back breaking blow against Red Chinese exploitation is already in the way and Xi is helpless to stop it: (1)

    U.S. Trade Representative Robert Lighthizer is testifying [today] at 10:00am to the House Ways and Means committee; later in the afternoon Ambassador Lighthizer will testify before the Senate Finance Committee.

    The New York Times has received an advance copy of USTR Lighthizer’s opening statement, and the liberal publication is apoplectic the Trump administration plans to outline an even more aggressive stance toward the World Trade Organization (WTO). ...

    One method to approach tariff inequality would be for the U.S. to lower the import value threshold for non-tariff exemptions. Currently the U.S. does not apply import duties to any product valued under $800. This is a great benefit to China, southeast Asia, and U.S. on-line retailers such as ebay and Amazon; however, the zero tariff threshold hurts U.S. manufacturers because China and other nations do not reciprocate.

    It is anticipated that USTR Lighthizer will inform congress the U.S. will lower that import threshold to match the same value level applied by other nations.
     
    China's inefficient State Owned Enterprises are incapable of competing on fair terms. Exploitation is integral to their business model. Without it, they are in deep trouble.

    PEACE 😇
    _______

    (1) https://theconservativetreehouse.com/2020/06/16/ustr-lighthizer-plans-to-outline-renewed-demand-for-international-tariff-reciprocity/

    Replies: @Escher, @eastkekistaniisawhiteguy

    OMG. How will Americans (of all stripes) survive without their Chinese assembled iToys?

    • Replies: @A123
    @Escher


    OMG. How will Americans (of all stripes) survive without their Chinese assembled iToys?
     
    Pretty simple.

    -- The SJW Globalist multinational tax dodgers will be run out of town.
    -- Exploitative foreign SOE's will no longer be able to dump their junk on us.
    -- U.S. Firms will out compete the Chinese assemblers of iJunk.

    Better goods, at better prices, from better companies that pay their taxes.

    Winning is not that hard. All it takes is the will.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @Escher

  137. @Rahan
    Let’s remember that while China can count only on itself in terms of high-tech, India has Japan, the US, and the UK. With this kind of backing, it is automatically equal to China, without having to make the effort that China makes. As long as the backing is there, India will have tech and intel more than equal to that of China, without having to work for it.

    In the 21st century, India is going to be an increasingly important player in the “Sealand” civilization, providing the demography (and resultant biomaterial for various big data and vaccination research), while Japan and the US/UK providing the tech.

    And Hong Kong and Taiwan providing “proper Chinese” people for absorption as well.

    So India vs China is in effect a combination of the “1st World leaders + India” vs China.

    Not unlike when Hitler invaded the USSR, people tend to forget that before that he had already consolidated the European continent for his own needs, through war and alliance. Thus Stalin was faced not with “an attacking Germany”, but “an attacking Europe” with everything that entails as industrial capacity.

    And thus today, when China is being poked by India, or by Taiwan, or by Japan, it’s never just them. In each case it’s the whole developed world vs China. Minus, this time, continental Europe. But US+UK+Japan+India+minor allies is also more than formidable.

    At least China doesn’t have to worry about its northern border, that’s something.

    ...It's probably time to read up on the Italy/Austria warfare history in WWI and WWII, to see how mountain border warfare played out.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Tor597

    Thus Stalin was faced not with “an attacking Germany”, but “an attacking Europe” with everything that entails as industrial capacity.

    That’s not entirely correct. French and Belgian GDP dropped significantly after the Germans occupied it (mostly because of the British blockade, but also because of other factors), and it’s not like the Germans could use all French resources the way they could use their own resources, especially not in the southern part of the country. They had to deliver Sweden coal and weapons to receive anything from them, and the same is true of Sweden and even Italy. Even countries nominally part of the war effort only spent a fraction of their resources on the war. For example Hungary and Romania kept a large portion of their respective armies on their common border against each other, up until 1944, when Romania switched sides.

  138. @A123
    @utu


    The US should seriously consider giving guarantees for Taiwan sovereignty.
     
    There is 0% motivation for Trump to raise those stakes. He is pulling back on U.S. Force deployments.

    More importantly, Trump does not want to distract U.S. unparalleled success over China in other areas. He is handing Xi defeat after defeat after defeat on the trade front. For example:

    -- USCMA -- reducing the permitted % of Chinese auto parts.
    -- Phase 1 of the China-US bilateral negotiations.
    -- Made in USA requirements for medical goods (PPE), pharmaceuticals, etc.

    The next back breaking blow against Red Chinese exploitation is already in the way and Xi is helpless to stop it: (1)

    U.S. Trade Representative Robert Lighthizer is testifying [today] at 10:00am to the House Ways and Means committee; later in the afternoon Ambassador Lighthizer will testify before the Senate Finance Committee.

    The New York Times has received an advance copy of USTR Lighthizer’s opening statement, and the liberal publication is apoplectic the Trump administration plans to outline an even more aggressive stance toward the World Trade Organization (WTO). ...

    One method to approach tariff inequality would be for the U.S. to lower the import value threshold for non-tariff exemptions. Currently the U.S. does not apply import duties to any product valued under $800. This is a great benefit to China, southeast Asia, and U.S. on-line retailers such as ebay and Amazon; however, the zero tariff threshold hurts U.S. manufacturers because China and other nations do not reciprocate.

    It is anticipated that USTR Lighthizer will inform congress the U.S. will lower that import threshold to match the same value level applied by other nations.
     
    China's inefficient State Owned Enterprises are incapable of competing on fair terms. Exploitation is integral to their business model. Without it, they are in deep trouble.

    PEACE 😇
    _______

    (1) https://theconservativetreehouse.com/2020/06/16/ustr-lighthizer-plans-to-outline-renewed-demand-for-international-tariff-reciprocity/

    Replies: @Escher, @eastkekistaniisawhiteguy

    you know nothing about china , chinese exports are dwarfed by what it consumes internally,if china was desperate they would let all the foreigners that work for the multinationals who are frothing at the bit to go back to china , my hope is they keep all furriners out for a long time

    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
    @eastkekistaniisawhiteguy

    Why take the Zionist troll so seriously?

    Why are you all taking the troll so seriously?

  139. A123 says:
    June 17, 2020 at 5:57 pm GMT • 100 Words   
    @Escher
    @A123

    OMG. How will Americans (of all stripes) survive without their Chinese assembled iToys?

    Replies: @A123

    OMG. How will Americans (of all stripes) survive without their Chinese assembled iToys?

    Pretty simple.

    — The SJW Globalist multinational tax dodgers will be run out of town.
    — Exploitative foreign SOE’s will no longer be able to dump their junk on us.
    — U.S. Firms will out compete the Chinese assemblers of iJunk.

    Better goods, at better prices, from better companies that pay their taxes.

    Winning is not that hard. All it takes is the will.

    PEACE 😇

    • LOL: Daniel Chieh
    • Replies: @Escher
    @A123

    Who are these US firms that you speak of, Tonto?
    Do you see Apple, Black & Decker, etc returning manufacturing and assembly stateside?

    Replies: @A123

  140. @A123
    @Escher


    OMG. How will Americans (of all stripes) survive without their Chinese assembled iToys?
     
    Pretty simple.

    -- The SJW Globalist multinational tax dodgers will be run out of town.
    -- Exploitative foreign SOE's will no longer be able to dump their junk on us.
    -- U.S. Firms will out compete the Chinese assemblers of iJunk.

    Better goods, at better prices, from better companies that pay their taxes.

    Winning is not that hard. All it takes is the will.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @Escher

    Who are these US firms that you speak of, Tonto?
    Do you see Apple, Black & Decker, etc returning manufacturing and assembly stateside?

    • Replies: @A123
    @Escher


    Do you see Apple, Black & Decker, etc returning manufacturing and assembly stateside?
     
    hi ho Silver!

    Grab a SJW Globalist firm by the balls and squeeze (yes they are tiny and hard to find).

    If there are $300+ in tariffs per imported iPhone. Apple will have no choice but to manufacture in the U.S. ... Or, go bankrupt.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @Daemon

  141. I wonder why no one has posted this yet…

    Disclaimer: no idea it it’s true but it certainly falls in the line 😀

  142. @Daniel Chieh
    Nothing you said connects in any way to sanity. Let's just pick a few.

    The PRC should have easily foreseen that removing HK from UK Law would have dire financial consequences. And, they failed they to do so.
     

    They foresaw many things. And they don't care - because HK has outlived its usefulness. The "dire financial consequences" such as it was already had happened when it became too much of a political risk for companies to remain. Nor have you considered the possibility that the CCP is completely fine with wrecking HK so that they can essentially repurchase it for the cheap.

    Control is the single greatest motivator of the CCP. An HK that was out of control is essentially useless to them, and an active liability. Whatever "PR" consequences(which China really doesn't care much about, especially from innately hostile actors), are much less muted than tolerating an active liability.


    Xi looks at HK, and has the intelligence to grasp the long term impact of the PRC breaking another economy and impoverishing the Han Chinese of Taiwan.
     
    Ultimately, if Taiwan is not cooperative, it is also a liability and if it is heavily populated by Han Chinese, it is in fact seen as an insufferable insult that they would choose to align themselves with ancient enemies such as the Japanese: traitors. The long-term impact of PRC unifying Taiwan is, within Chinese terms and this might be unfortunate, but it would be the summation of the Mandate of Heaven for quite some time. Its a great accomplishment, and great accomplishments are how the Mandate is perceived.

    Rather than idly speculate, try to read up on Chinese history and you'll see that the habit of endless deathmatches in order to have a single China is the norm.

    If Xi orders the conquest of Tiawan, he will personally own 100% of the downside. We all see that you believe Xi is an utter moron, willing to make obvious and easily avoidable errors.
     

    The most easily avoided error is to ignore anything that someone like you would say.

    But for starters, Xi is not some sort of Emperor. He has outsized impact but Chinese politics also has multiple factions and he ultimately have to be responsive to the population(to which a good percentage are ultranationalists), and figures such as Zhao Lijian and "wolf warrior" diplomacy are great examples of the increasing prominence of -much more aggressive- politicians. Even top members of the politburo are more "revisionist" and aggressive than he is, and he owns all of their decisions and choices.


    As the history you either do not know or cannot understand shows, that type of air superiority is of limited value when dealing with dispersed light infantry in hostile terrain.
     
    That does not matter.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Vietnamese_conflicts,_1979%E2%80%931991

    China is completely willing to fight an war of essentially no specific gain, because in any trade of material versus a less industrialized country, China comes out much stronger at the end via attrition. Knockout blows are unnecessary so as long as strategic advantage is realized.

    Replies: @utu, @animalogic, @A123, @Not Only Wrathful, @Astuteobservor II

    From what I have read, the Chinese plan is for the island of Hainan to replace HK.

    Completely.

    And Hainan is supposed to become even more than HK is now.

    HK (the politicians and the business class) is fucked because they couldn’t solved the retarded protester problem.

    • Replies: @Europe Europa
    @Astuteobservor II

    Interestingly, China now offers many Western nationalities visa free entry to Hainan, like Hong Kong does, which seems like a deliberate attempt to turn it into a replacement for Hong Kong.

    , @EldnahYm
    @Astuteobservor II

    Hainan is a dump.

    Replies: @Astuteobservor II

  143. @utu
    @Daniel Chieh

    The US should seriously consider giving guarantees for Taiwan sovereignty.


    https://www.unz.com/pbuchanan/jinping-takes-up-the-us-challenge/#comment-3922573
    If the US is really going to contest and stop China, Taiwan is the place where to draw the line in the sand. The legal case for Taiwan sovereignty and independence from China within the international law is much more clear cut than that for Hong Kong. If the will of the Taiwanese who in majority do not have close historical links to China is to seek the independence then the US should help them. Actually it is the US that should give Taiwan guarantees that it will use all its power to protect the independence of Taiwan so Taiwan can proceed.

    China does not need to have Taiwan just like the US does not need to have Puerto Rico or Hawaii. If Puerto Rico or Hawaii decided to secede I would support any country, including China, that would help them to accomplish it. For similar reason I will support the US helping Taiwan achieve its independence.

    From the point of view of the rest of the world that consists of small countries and small nations neither China nor America are good guys or bad guys. They are powers that small nations and countries have to put up with. While America did some good in the world it also did a lot of evil. China has not been a power long enough yet in the modern era to demonstrate its full capacity for good and evil but nobody has any illusions that given a chance it won’t be much better than America.
     

    Replies: @DB Cooper, @d dan, @soyuz, @A123, @reiner Tor, @Astuteobservor II

    That is the same as declaring war with China.

    You really should know what you are asking for before you asked it.

    • Replies: @d dan
    @Astuteobservor II


    "You really should know what you are asking for before you asked it."
     
    Yes, so many of them still couldn't grasp what Sun Tzu counselled for over 2000 years: "Know yourself and know your enemy".

    Or if they don't like ancient eastern wisdom, at least listen to similar advice from Lincoln about "Keeping your enemy closer".
  144. @eastkekistaniisawhiteguy
    @A123

    you know nothing about china , chinese exports are dwarfed by what it consumes internally,if china was desperate they would let all the foreigners that work for the multinationals who are frothing at the bit to go back to china , my hope is they keep all furriners out for a long time

    Replies: @Astuteobservor II

    Why take the Zionist troll so seriously?

    Why are you all taking the troll so seriously?

  145. @Astuteobservor II
    @Daniel Chieh

    From what I have read, the Chinese plan is for the island of Hainan to replace HK.

    Completely.

    And Hainan is supposed to become even more than HK is now.

    HK (the politicians and the business class) is fucked because they couldn't solved the retarded protester problem.

    Replies: @Europe Europa, @EldnahYm

    Interestingly, China now offers many Western nationalities visa free entry to Hainan, like Hong Kong does, which seems like a deliberate attempt to turn it into a replacement for Hong Kong.

  146. A123 says:
    June 17, 2020 at 6:42 pm GMT • 100 Words   
    @Escher
    @A123

    Who are these US firms that you speak of, Tonto?
    Do you see Apple, Black & Decker, etc returning manufacturing and assembly stateside?

    Replies: @A123

    Do you see Apple, Black & Decker, etc returning manufacturing and assembly stateside?

    hi ho Silver!

    Grab a SJW Globalist firm by the balls and squeeze (yes they are tiny and hard to find).

    If there are $300+ in tariffs per imported iPhone. Apple will have no choice but to manufacture in the U.S. … Or, go bankrupt.

    PEACE 😇

    • Replies: @Daemon
    @A123

    Looks like being a Jew doesnt offset the IQ loss from being a boomercon.

    You do realize manufacturing in the USA using American "labor", American (((Regulations))) and American (((Taxes))) would easily push the finished product to somewhere north of $3000 right?

    You would need to tarrif the chinese not just 30%, but 300% to get any manufacturer to budge. At which point, they'd simply flip you the bird and leave.

    Replies: @Not Only Wrathful

  147. Meena says:
    June 17, 2020 at 6:43 pm GMT • 200 Words   
    @Vishnugupta
    This is unlikely to snowball into a shooting war.
    Both sides are pulling back and no cabinet level official in either country has made any hothead statement.

    What happened is that basically two platoons without direct senior officer supervision went at each other with clubs and other similar improvised implements.No knives and certainly no guns were used.

    Senior officers met immediately and have suspended all patrolling and have accelerated disengagement.

    This will result is greater alignment of India with the US security setup in Asia though we will not become a treaty ally.

    I think there is some internal power play in China resulting in China putting up an aggressive posture atleast a decade before facts on the ground warrant it.

    Even if there is a shooting war(non nuclear) which China wins it will not lead to structural failure of India or loss of core territories,it will enable Modi&Co the pretext to declare an emergency liquidate the opposition and sign up to the US alliance in Asia.India will likely be given much greater market and technology access by the us eu japan and likely develop into a serious long term enemy with a GDP of around 40% of the PRC by 2045.

    How does China benefit from this?

    Would it not be better from the Chinese POV to bide it's time for another 10-15 years and then impose its will on all its neighbours when the US is in no position to intervene and its relative strength makes resistance futile.

    Replies: @DB Cooper, @Tor597, @Showmethereal, @Meena

    will enable Modi&Co the pretext to declare an emergency liquidate the opposition and sign up to the US alliance in Asia.”

    Isn’t India too diverse to allow for emergency ? Indira Gandhi cant achieve in those days without mass communication that Indians have today . Regional parties are more restive aggressive and equally corrupt . They will fight to the last blood .

    India can join the US camp now There is no other discernible camp and no one in opposition has any concept what the camp means given the fact that all of them including Communist are inside the US club either directly or indirectly . It is possibly correct to say India is already in the camp .

    USA cant force its companies to go anywhere Companies decide to go and USA facilitates the journey

    It was not Modi gov’s failure to attract the business fleeing from China . Companies did not find the level of skill and infrastructure in India alluring enough to relocate .

  148. Antonius says:
    June 17, 2020 at 7:09 pm GMT • 100 Words   
    @Max Payne
    I have a 2-to-1 on a decisive Chinese victory on the next skirmish. Any takers?

    Replies: @Not Raul, @JohnPlywood, @Antonius

    I prefer slopes to street shitters, but not by much. The downside would be a tsunami of street shitters heading west as refugees. I have adopted a truly vulgarian animus given the supine leadership infesting the western world. In South Africa Rhamaphosa is gleefully welcoming the latest distraction not unlike a guilty schoolboy welcomes a sick helping evade responsibility.

  149. @Anatoly Karlin
    @Daniel Chieh

    You're obviously closer to the mark than A123, but I am not sure China vs. India will be such a complete wipe.

    China's superiority in 4th gen + fighters is only twofold, and Indian pilots are pretty good: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cope_India

    Average Indian < average Chinese, but like China, India gets to select from a billion people, and its caste system has ensured subgroups with high IQ, as well as "martial spirit." The latter are certainly overrepresented within the Indian armed forces, though I assume there's a problem with the former (Indian high IQ tend to be apatride - even more than usual for this group).

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @A123, @last straw, @china-russia-all-the-way

    China probably has overwhelming superiority in electronic warfare with their newly established Strategic Support Force. China probably also enjoys enormous supremacy in drone warfare. In light of how easily the Turkish UAVs destroyed Russian air-defense systems such as the Pantsir missile system in Syria, China’s advantage in such systems should be underestimated.

  150. @reiner Tor
    @Daniel Chieh

    They did manage to finish some projects, like the Brahmos (I believe jointly with Russia) or the nuclear submarine (again, with Russian help). Also they have a space program, and built nukes and ballistic missiles. I’m pretty sure that they would be a mishmash of a few fantastic achievements, lots of mediocrity and also a number of highly ridiculous, idiotic failures.

    Replies: @last straw

    Most of India’s major military programs are miserable failures, such as the 20-30 year development of the Arjun main battle tank and the Tejas light fighter.

  151. @Anatoly Karlin
    @Daniel Chieh

    You're obviously closer to the mark than A123, but I am not sure China vs. India will be such a complete wipe.

    China's superiority in 4th gen + fighters is only twofold, and Indian pilots are pretty good: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cope_India

    Average Indian < average Chinese, but like China, India gets to select from a billion people, and its caste system has ensured subgroups with high IQ, as well as "martial spirit." The latter are certainly overrepresented within the Indian armed forces, though I assume there's a problem with the former (Indian high IQ tend to be apatride - even more than usual for this group).

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @A123, @last straw, @china-russia-all-the-way

    I believe the Indian officer corps is known for having fewer shortcomings in corruption than other sections of India. There is a climate of meritocratic promotion with low corruption. One out of four army chiefs are Khatris (a Punjabi Hindu high caste) indicating good quality rises up the ranks. Sikhs, another group with high martial spirit is disproportionately represented. Two percent of India is Sikh but they are about 20% of the officer corps.

    Besides these advantages, Indian and Western assess Chinese military infrastructure to be not well prepared for a war near the Indian border. China doesn’t have much personnel, equipment or aircraft near the border with India.

    In the northern Xinjiang sector’s two airfields Hotan and Kashgar – the distance between them is 450 km while the distance between Hotan and Gargunsa is 550 kms. Hotan to Korla, the distance is 750 km so they are not mutually supportive. In western Tibet, there is only one airfield, Gargunsa. If Gargunsa is bombed by the Indian Air Force, there will be a gap of 1,500 km between Hotan and nearest airfield Hoping.”

    Group Capt (Retd) Chhatwal concludes by making a pertinent point: “There is another limitation which they have. In the airfield, when you park aircraft for fighter operations, they have to be in blast protected shelters – concrete shelters. China doesn’t have any blast protected shelters at any of the airfields. After Doklam they have realised their mistake and have now started building these in Kongka Dzong (Lhasa) airfield.”

    https://www.timesnownews.com/india/article/india-china-stand-off-a-comparison-of-the-military-and-air-defence-prowess/597635

    However, Indians don’t see the forest for the trees. I have never heard a single Indian analyst connect the dots in this way: Doesn’t the lack of military infrastructure and resources indicate there is no strategy by China to provoke a limited war? Indian strategists to the contrary at the start of the standoff generally assumed China planned to fight a limited war or launch some other kind of belligerence.

    The credibility of the Indian media has carried that malevolent China narrative around the world with Karlin seeming to adopt the Indian point of view about Chinese intentions. In some ways, the level of global trust in Indian newsprint might be India’s best advantage. As Saker pointed out big power warfare nowadays is a bit kinetic and a huge information contest follows.

    Regardless of caste borne elan of the Indian officer corps or China’s lack of military preparedness near the border, I think GDP, GDP per capita and military spending are the metrics that trump everything else.

    • Agree: Blinky Bill
  152. d dan says:
    June 17, 2020 at 7:50 pm GMT • 100 Words   
    @reiner Tor
    @utu

    This would be a high reward strategy, but it would also carry very high risks. Obviously China would have to choose between accepting a humiliating defeat (which could easily lead to Xi being removed from power) or starting a world war. It’s difficult to tell which he would choose.

    Replies: @d dan

    “This would be a high reward strategy, but it would also carry very high risks.”

    How is protecting Taiwan any “reward” to US? What benefit(s) does it accrue to US (or any country)?

    “China would have to choose between accepting a humiliating defeat… “

    If you think US military has any chance of prevailing in Taiwan Strait, then you are quite outdated on the latest military progresses of China.

    “It’s difficult to tell which he [ Xi ] would choose.”

    Only westerners think it is difficult to tell. Most Chinese (including overseas Chinese) know the answer. I suspect some Chinese as clueless as Taiwanese greens also know the answer.

    And that is why “utu” suggestion is so idiotic – interfering into other people affair halfway around the world without clear understanding of what others think. Come to think about it – isn’t this exactly what US (and some European countries) has been doing all along (in middle east and elsewhere)?

    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
    @d dan

    I have to disagree. US govt understands perfectly. If China is weak, it would not even blink before interfering with China. Just like it did at the end of 1949.

    You are reading n hearing all the bullshit now because USA can't do that now.

    Utu might not understand, but the US and Chinese govts understand each other perfectly.

    , @reiner Tor
    @d dan


    How is protecting Taiwan any “reward” to US? What benefit(s) does it accrue to US (or any country)?
     
    We were pondering the possibilities for the American Empire, to stop and perhaps destroy the up and coming rival superpower.

    If you think US military has any chance of prevailing in Taiwan Strait, then you are quite outdated on the latest military progresses of China.
     
    I don’t think anyone could tell with a high degree of certainty, not even Chinese or American war planners. And there’s always the risk of the defeated enemy going nuclear.

    But my point was not that China would be militarily defeated in the Taiwan Strait, my point was that accepting an American guarantee for Taiwan would in itself be a humiliating defeat, and that China would be forced to choose between that humiliation or starting a world war.

    Only westerners think it is difficult to tell.
     
    I would say the likely outcome would be China starting a war, but given the super high stakes, they might tremble in their shoes.

    But my point was not that China would hesitate to start a war. My point was to highlight (from an American point of view) the risks inherent in utu’s proposal. His proposal would carry an enormously high risk of a world war.

    Replies: @Astuteobservor II, @d dan

  153. A123 says:
    June 17, 2020 at 8:03 pm GMT • 400 Words   

    Breaking News (1)

    Calls are growing in India for a boycott of Chinese products after the latest in a string of violent clashes between Indian and Chinese troops along the contested border left 20 Indian soldiers dead.

    The Confederation of All India Traders (CAIT), a powerful small business lobby, condemned “Chinese military aggression” on Wednesday and released a list of “more than 500 broad categories” of imported Chinese goods to boycott.

    Chinese state media was, unsurprisingly, nonplussed at the prospect of Indian boycotts. China’s Global Times lauded “rational voices in India” who argue that it’s “unrealistic and self-destructive for Asia’s third-largest economy to launch frictions with the largest economy in the region.”

    Indian Prime Minister Modi sounded like he was in no mood for either threats or lectures from China on Wednesday, vowing that the deaths of Indian soldiers “will not be in vain” and his nation would be “proud that our soldiers died fighting the Chinese.”

    This reinforces my point about China’s strategic weakness as a predatory goods exporter. Any nation can penalize China’s vulnerable export trade surplus at any time.

    The EU is also joining India and the U.S. (2)

    Brussels is set to unveil on Wednesday a proposal for sweeping new powers to crack down on foreign subsidies, in its most aggressive push yet to curb the influence on the European market of companies backed by China and other governments.

    [The EU] aims to review deals when a foreign company acquires control over an EU target, or at least 35 percent of the voting rights, according to the draft.

    It is also seeking to beef up control over public procurement and access to EU funds to ensure a level playing field between EU businesses and foreign competitors that receive public support.

    In the end, this could mean foreign companies could get fined, be banned from acquiring EU companies or from participating to public tenders in the bloc.

    The CCP’s incompetence, inflicting WUHAN-19 on other nations, has freed up a huge back log of measures that were previously contained by paid Chinese shills/lobbyists.

    PEACE 😇
    _______

    (1) https://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2020/06/17/indians-call-boycott-china-after-deadly-border-clash/

    (2) https://www.politico.com/news/2020/06/16/brussels-forges-new-weapons-to-shield-eu-market-from-china-325145

    • Replies: @last straw
    @A123


    This reinforces my point about China’s strategic weakness as a predatory goods exporter. Any nation can penalize China’s vulnerable export trade surplus at any time.

    The EU is also joining India and the U.S. (2)
     
    Did you even read your own link? From the Politico article:

    The EU is seriously upping the ante in its drive to tackle unfair competition from China, the U.S. and other foreign players in the single market.

    Nations have no friends, only interests.

    Replies: @Astuteobservor II, @A123

  154. d dan says:
    June 17, 2020 at 8:15 pm GMT • 100 Words   
    @Astuteobservor II
    @utu

    That is the same as declaring war with China.

    You really should know what you are asking for before you asked it.

    Replies: @d dan

    “You really should know what you are asking for before you asked it.”

    Yes, so many of them still couldn’t grasp what Sun Tzu counselled for over 2000 years: “Know yourself and know your enemy”.

    Or if they don’t like ancient eastern wisdom, at least listen to similar advice from Lincoln about “Keeping your enemy closer”.

  155. @neutral
    @DB Cooper

    How about neither India or China get it, but rather it goes to an independent Tibet.

    Replies: @Showmethereal

    Why would China give it up? Tibet was part of China longer than the US has been a country. China’s problem was they gave the region too much autonomy. So Tibetans are taught Mandarin now…. Just like any normal country. Are Catalans deserving of their own country? What about Venetians and Genoans? Hawaiians? Okinawans??? How about we have an even 1000 countries?

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    @Showmethereal

    Well, what was one country, the USSR, is now 15 recognized and 6 partially recognized countries. Former Yugoslavia is also 6 recognized and one partially recognized country. Sudan, Ethiopia, and Czechoslovakia became two countries each. Only Germans, in their contrarian fashion, swim against the current: became one country instead of two.

    Replies: @Astuteobservor II, @d dan, @showmethereal

    , @Philip Owen
    @Showmethereal

    There will be the EU instead. Now strong and stable and without Britain to push for expansion, no new full members in a hurry. Deepening itself but with satellites like Egypt, Russia (+EaEu) and Turkey held by a strong economic gravitational pull.

    Replies: @showmethereal

  156. @Rahan
    Let’s remember that while China can count only on itself in terms of high-tech, India has Japan, the US, and the UK. With this kind of backing, it is automatically equal to China, without having to make the effort that China makes. As long as the backing is there, India will have tech and intel more than equal to that of China, without having to work for it.

    In the 21st century, India is going to be an increasingly important player in the “Sealand” civilization, providing the demography (and resultant biomaterial for various big data and vaccination research), while Japan and the US/UK providing the tech.

    And Hong Kong and Taiwan providing “proper Chinese” people for absorption as well.

    So India vs China is in effect a combination of the “1st World leaders + India” vs China.

    Not unlike when Hitler invaded the USSR, people tend to forget that before that he had already consolidated the European continent for his own needs, through war and alliance. Thus Stalin was faced not with “an attacking Germany”, but “an attacking Europe” with everything that entails as industrial capacity.

    And thus today, when China is being poked by India, or by Taiwan, or by Japan, it’s never just them. In each case it’s the whole developed world vs China. Minus, this time, continental Europe. But US+UK+Japan+India+minor allies is also more than formidable.

    At least China doesn’t have to worry about its northern border, that’s something.

    ...It's probably time to read up on the Italy/Austria warfare history in WWI and WWII, to see how mountain border warfare played out.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Tor597

    What I fear the most is a semi alliance with India, and then India gets the shit kicked out of her.

    And then a bunch of Indians move to the west as refugees. This would be a total disaster for the west.

  157. Obviously, it will sour India’s relations with China and move it even closer to the Americans.

    As if that is a bad thing for China or a good thing for America. For China, it would be a win-win.

  158. Can someone tell me why the Chinese and Indians are having a go at it in the first place? I fail to see the benefit of such a conflict to either side.

    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
    @Abelard Lindsey

    Smart Indians would tell you this is for Indian domestic consumption as modi needs a distraction for the public.

  159. India still officially believes that it is competing with China, even though it lost this game a long time ago. Deep down they know that, hence their attempts to befriend the Empire. This is about as smart as the same attempt by Syrian Kurds: the Empire uses whoever it can, and then discards “allies” like used condoms.

    • Agree: DB Cooper
  160. KA says:
    June 17, 2020 at 9:40 pm GMT • 100 Words   

    “ For all of Mr. Modi’s aggressive rhetoric, the clash has underscored how far India has fallen behind its neighbor, militarily and economically.

    “India has no options, or limited ones,” said Rahul Bedi, a military analyst in Delhi. “Appeasement is a risk,” he added, but one that “may be more digestible for now.”

    Others in India say that the danger of inaction is greater. China has chipped away at territory along the disputed frontier — seizing about 23 square miles in the past two months.”

    Ms. Madan of Brookings said that many Indians viewed this as “salami slicing”

    “It’s not lost on folks that this is the fourth major boundary incident since 2012,” she said, referring to the year Mr. Xi rose to power. “What they seem to be trying to do is the territorial version of what they have done in the South China Sea.”

    Samir Saran, the president of the Observer Research Foundation, a Delhi think tank, who is seen as close to Mr. Modi’s government, said that if India does not stand up to China, Beijing may double down and continue to claim more contested terrain.

    “You don’t surrender to a powerful enemy,” he said.

    “There have to be costs attached to Chinese behavior,” Mr. Saran added. “India may have to be prepared for series of limited skirmishes to occasional conflicts. Maybe that is the new normal in our region.”

    NYTimes 6/17/2020

  161. @Showmethereal
    @neutral

    Why would China give it up? Tibet was part of China longer than the US has been a country. China's problem was they gave the region too much autonomy. So Tibetans are taught Mandarin now.... Just like any normal country. Are Catalans deserving of their own country? What about Venetians and Genoans? Hawaiians? Okinawans??? How about we have an even 1000 countries?

    Replies: @AnonFromTN, @Philip Owen

    Well, what was one country, the USSR, is now 15 recognized and 6 partially recognized countries. Former Yugoslavia is also 6 recognized and one partially recognized country. Sudan, Ethiopia, and Czechoslovakia became two countries each. Only Germans, in their contrarian fashion, swim against the current: became one country instead of two.

    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
    @AnonFromTN

    China is weird in how it fragments and reunites always. Even two dynasties under suppose barbarian rulers.

    You are telling China to let go of territories China considers it's provinces.

    The very Chinese first reaction would probably be disbelief that any outsider can be that stupid, and arrogant enough to think they can dictate terms to China on that scale.

    The second would probably be war.

    Remember when trump gave a phone call to Taiwan's current president, remember the immediate Chinese response?

    War baby, it is on. 1000% at that point.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

    , @d dan
    @AnonFromTN


    "Only Germans, in their contrarian fashion, swim against the current: became one country instead of two."
     
    No, what you described is not the "current". EU is supposedly to be a project in the other direction. Vietnam fought with cost of millions lives to unite their country. What used to be Sikkim, Nagaland, Jammu & Kashmir, Hyderabad etc are now part of India. Okinawa and Hawaii used to be independent nations too. The Koreans also tried with war, and are still working toward unification. China has been extremely patient, waited for over 150 years to get back Hong Kong and Macao peacefully, and hopefully through peaceful mean too with Taiwan.

    The world with 1,000 or 10,000 nations is not necessary a better place than one with 200 or even 10 nations. It will be much more chaotic, much more inefficient (e.g. trades, travels, technology,...), much less effective (e.g. in solving global problems like environment protection, climate change, terrorism, standard settings,...) and likely more disputes, conflicts and wars.

    , @showmethereal
    @AnonFromTN

    USSR was not a country.... And all the examples you used have been horror stories... Exactly why China won't let their country be split up. Germany unified and has prospered. Again - that's why China wants unification.

  162. @Vishnugupta
    @Felix Keverich

    Well we are still by far the biggest purchaser of Russian arms.

    We also bought S400 and half a dozen other defence products last year despite US threats of sanctions.

    But yes you are right in the sense that the relationship is not as close as it used to be.

    Still FWIW there is still immense goodwill here for Russia for all the help in the USSR era.

    Replies: @neutral, @showmethereal

    “We also bought S400 and half a dozen other defence products last year despite US threats of sanctions.”

    True… But Russia sold the S-400 to India for a lower cost per unit. 30 years ago – India would have most likely gotten the better deal (or rather China might not have even gotten it). Russia’s intelligence network is still pretty formidable. It seems to me Russia realizes India is pivoting harder towards the 5 Eyes and so isn’t doing it any favors anymore.

    • Replies: @Vishnugupta
    @showmethereal

    Well Russia leased us an improved Akula 2 submarine. This is fairly state of the art tech second only to yasen class in terms of technical sophistication as far as Russian SSNs go.It is unlikely this would be done if we were deemed untrustworthy.

    Then there are programs like Brahmos 2 hypersonic cruise missile..It is very unlikely this sort of cooperation would be on offer if Russia has made the sort of assessment you are speculating it has..

    Replies: @showmethereal

  163. @Erik Sieven
    It would be interesting to know real casualties on both sides in the current clashes.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

    It would be interesting to know real casualties on both sides in the current clashes.

    Does it matter? Each country has a billion more for the meat grinder.

  164. @Pentheus
    China vs. India war, if it ever happened: no contest.

    Chinese = army ants on the march
    Indians = mouse infestation

    Mice in large numbers become a self-cancelling self-liability of feces and starvation. (India is a literal "shithole" of overpopulation, feces, trash, and hunger.) Ants in large numbers are the true nature of ants. (Much of China is still primitive but there is not shit in the streets.)

    Stinging army ants can outswarm mouse hordes easily. Mice can never outswarm or even really hurt an army ant swarm on the march. Ants as a group are a coordinated thing in itself with a kind of group mind. Mice in a group are just a bunch of individual mice.

    Chinese people with "nothing to lose" are still strong, energetic and willing to die for the group good. Indian people with "nothing to lose" are scrawny, weak, cowardly and worthless militarily. Some Chinese WITH "something to lose" will still be fierce, group-minded, and willing to risk losing it. Indians with "something to lose" wouldn't risk a stubbed toe.

    India could never do what the Chi-Coms did in overwhelming the Americans by sheer numbers, revolutionary esprit, and fearlessness in the Korean War.

    India is the most pathetic country in world history. Alexander the Great, with only a few thousand men, was poised to take over the whole thing - and he knew he could, easily - except that his men rebelled against going any farther away from home. The Mughals took India over, then the Brits.

    Nukes: sure, China and India both have them; but do both sides have equal willingness to USE them? China would not flinch if it were deemed necessary. Every Indian in charge is infected with Western "human rights" and approval-seeking - plus the "divinity is in everything" religious sensibility - which would flinch at hitting "The Button."

    And even just on the individual physical level: what has India ever done in any sports besides cricket?

    Replies: @showmethereal, @d dan

    Ouch! That was harsh… But there is a lot of truth in how you put it…
    In any event – let’s hope there is no war.

  165. Russia can step in and do a bit of their 19th century “you get this, you get that” magic to fix it and profit as arbiter

    Shouldn’t be hard to convince both sides – the land in question is just slightly less useless than Bir Tawil

  166. @Europe Europa
    All Indians seem to do is cold call British people all day long trying to scam them out of money, especially out of elderly and vulnerable people. Sometimes I get 4 or 5 calls a day from Indian scum trying to scam me and I can't be the only one.

    I hope China smashes India for that reason alone, they are absolute scum.

    Replies: @EldnahYm, @Hypnotoad666, @Grahamsno(G64)

    Sometimes I get 4 or 5 calls a day from Indian scum trying to scam me and I can’t be the only one.

    A valid casus belli, if ever there was one.

    • Replies: @WV Guerrilla
    @Hypnotoad666

    I dream of the days when my only concern with world affairs is getting robo calls from Indians!

  167. @AnonFromTN
    @Showmethereal

    Well, what was one country, the USSR, is now 15 recognized and 6 partially recognized countries. Former Yugoslavia is also 6 recognized and one partially recognized country. Sudan, Ethiopia, and Czechoslovakia became two countries each. Only Germans, in their contrarian fashion, swim against the current: became one country instead of two.

    Replies: @Astuteobservor II, @d dan, @showmethereal

    China is weird in how it fragments and reunites always. Even two dynasties under suppose barbarian rulers.

    You are telling China to let go of territories China considers it’s provinces.

    The very Chinese first reaction would probably be disbelief that any outsider can be that stupid, and arrogant enough to think they can dictate terms to China on that scale.

    The second would probably be war.

    Remember when trump gave a phone call to Taiwan’s current president, remember the immediate Chinese response?

    War baby, it is on. 1000% at that point.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    @Astuteobservor II


    You are telling China to let go of territories China considers its provinces.
     
    As a matter of fact, I am not. China has a record of resolving its land disputes with neighbors via negotiations. A multi-thousand-miles border with Russia is a good example: all disputes resolved, and both sides benefit from facilitated cross-border travel and trade immensely. I hear that everything in stores on both sides of the border is in two languages, Russian and Mandarin.

    But it takes two to tango, so this option does not exist with unreasonable neighbors. Basically, the development of this conflict would show whether India is a reasonable neighbor. If it is not, even the multitude of Hindu Gods won’t save it.
  168. @showmethereal
    @Vishnugupta

    "We also bought S400 and half a dozen other defence products last year despite US threats of sanctions."

    True... But Russia sold the S-400 to India for a lower cost per unit. 30 years ago - India would have most likely gotten the better deal (or rather China might not have even gotten it). Russia's intelligence network is still pretty formidable. It seems to me Russia realizes India is pivoting harder towards the 5 Eyes and so isn't doing it any favors anymore.

    Replies: @Vishnugupta

    Well Russia leased us an improved Akula 2 submarine. This is fairly state of the art tech second only to yasen class in terms of technical sophistication as far as Russian SSNs go.It is unlikely this would be done if we were deemed untrustworthy.

    Then there are programs like Brahmos 2 hypersonic cruise missile..It is very unlikely this sort of cooperation would be on offer if Russia has made the sort of assessment you are speculating it has..

    • Replies: @showmethereal
    @Vishnugupta

    Brahmos started years ago... So are you pretending Russia doesn't mind India cozying up to 5 Eyes?

    Replies: @Vishnugupta

  169. @Abelard Lindsey
    Can someone tell me why the Chinese and Indians are having a go at it in the first place? I fail to see the benefit of such a conflict to either side.

    Replies: @Astuteobservor II

    Smart Indians would tell you this is for Indian domestic consumption as modi needs a distraction for the public.

  170. Why did the chinese attack the indians, did the indians cross the border, I sometimes watch english language news programs of indian channels on you tube, they are going ape shit over this, lotsa propaganda , lies and hyperbole from the anchors and guests,all they do is parrot trump and the american news medis they know nuthing about the the chinese whatever they know is from the net , before the internet they thought chinese were similar to mongols , now its Han this Han that, I have no doubt this shitstorm was started by the indians, one of the commentors on a indian military website was pissed that a indian reporter of a major tv news channel spilled the beans sayin modi was pissed with the army, that comment has been taken down.

  171. If china was to somehow land on indian soil the indians would hold out for maybe a week , your mics can only produce so much, there will be no guerilla anything , maybe and that is a big maybe the khalistani punjabis might hold out for a bit but by a little coercion from their brothers over the border they too would give up.

  172. @Showmethereal
    @neutral

    Why would China give it up? Tibet was part of China longer than the US has been a country. China's problem was they gave the region too much autonomy. So Tibetans are taught Mandarin now.... Just like any normal country. Are Catalans deserving of their own country? What about Venetians and Genoans? Hawaiians? Okinawans??? How about we have an even 1000 countries?

    Replies: @AnonFromTN, @Philip Owen

    There will be the EU instead. Now strong and stable and without Britain to push for expansion, no new full members in a hurry. Deepening itself but with satellites like Egypt, Russia (+EaEu) and Turkey held by a strong economic gravitational pull.

    • Replies: @showmethereal
    @Philip Owen

    and where do you get such optimism?

  173. Don’t the Indians and Chinese routinely throw stuff at each other up there in the Himalayans? And when that happens don’t some of them fall off the mountain? So will this lead to an actual war? How would you even fight a war on top of huge mountains? Guess I am on the side of the mountains winning.

  174. @Daniel Chieh
    @china-russia-all-the-way

    No, his powerful takes must never leave us.

    Replies: @Ano4

    He adequately depicts the riches of the Hindustani geopolitical tradition.

    🙂

  175. @d dan
    @reiner Tor


    "This would be a high reward strategy, but it would also carry very high risks."
     
    How is protecting Taiwan any "reward" to US? What benefit(s) does it accrue to US (or any country)?

    "China would have to choose between accepting a humiliating defeat... "
     
    If you think US military has any chance of prevailing in Taiwan Strait, then you are quite outdated on the latest military progresses of China.

    "It’s difficult to tell which he [ Xi ] would choose."
     
    Only westerners think it is difficult to tell. Most Chinese (including overseas Chinese) know the answer. I suspect some Chinese as clueless as Taiwanese greens also know the answer.

    And that is why "utu" suggestion is so idiotic - interfering into other people affair halfway around the world without clear understanding of what others think. Come to think about it - isn't this exactly what US (and some European countries) has been doing all along (in middle east and elsewhere)?

    Replies: @Astuteobservor II, @reiner Tor

    I have to disagree. US govt understands perfectly. If China is weak, it would not even blink before interfering with China. Just like it did at the end of 1949.

    You are reading n hearing all the bullshit now because USA can’t do that now.

    Utu might not understand, but the US and Chinese govts understand each other perfectly.

  176. d dan says:
    @AnonFromTN
    @Showmethereal

    Well, what was one country, the USSR, is now 15 recognized and 6 partially recognized countries. Former Yugoslavia is also 6 recognized and one partially recognized country. Sudan, Ethiopia, and Czechoslovakia became two countries each. Only Germans, in their contrarian fashion, swim against the current: became one country instead of two.

    Replies: @Astuteobservor II, @d dan, @showmethereal

    “Only Germans, in their contrarian fashion, swim against the current: became one country instead of two.”

    No, what you described is not the “current”. EU is supposedly to be a project in the other direction. Vietnam fought with cost of millions lives to unite their country. What used to be Sikkim, Nagaland, Jammu & Kashmir, Hyderabad etc are now part of India. Okinawa and Hawaii used to be independent nations too. The Koreans also tried with war, and are still working toward unification. China has been extremely patient, waited for over 150 years to get back Hong Kong and Macao peacefully, and hopefully through peaceful mean too with Taiwan.

    The world with 1,000 or 10,000 nations is not necessary a better place than one with 200 or even 10 nations. It will be much more chaotic, much more inefficient (e.g. trades, travels, technology,…), much less effective (e.g. in solving global problems like environment protection, climate change, terrorism, standard settings,…) and likely more disputes, conflicts and wars.

  177. The largest army of WW2 was the British 14th army, largely composed of Indian units with most other troops from Africa. It took a while to assemble and train. Once it was in place, it pushed the Japanese back without let up. The victory was won in battle not by manouvre. The Japanese took their biggest land losses of the war against the 14th Army. The Kwantung Army that surrendered to the Soviet Union was bigger than the prisonor count of the 14th Army but not by much prior to surrender. The Kwantung Army put up no serious fight. It did not have the supplies.

    After independence, the short lived Dominion of India invaded 600 independent states to form the modern Indian federation. This was an act of substantial skill by the Indian Army, which still included former British officers in the general staff of the time.

    So, the Indian Army has a substantial tradition of success of its own. It is not going to retreat quickly in front of the PLA. The PLA will have to earn its victories by battles. Losses will be high on both sides but the Indian Army has a tradition of coming back from large losses. The PLA overwhelmed Chiang with a vast quantity of surplus Soviet weapons and supplies, not battle victories.

    • Agree: Vishnugupta, AaronB
    • Replies: @82-IQ H1B Indian
    @Philip Owen

    Philip,

    Shhh....

    There is a near unanimous conclusion on this thread that China will beat the living day lights out of India with out breaking a sweat. Since this is a 104 IQ China vs 70 IQ India, IQ worshiping Unzites are rooting for Chinese organ harvesters against dirty Indians :-)

    Of course India has around 13.5 Divisions facing China along LAC
    (XIV corps - 2 divisions and 1 armored brigade = 25,000 +25,000 + 4000 = 54,000 Men
    IX Corps - 25,000 men
    1 reserve division 25,000 men
    XXXIII corps - 3 divisions and 1 art brigade = 25,000 * 3 + 4000 = 79,000 men
    IV corps - 3 Div =75,000 Men
    III corps - 3 Div =75,000 Men
    XVII corps - 1.5 Division = 40,000 Men
    Total army men tasked with China = 290,000 Men
    )

    On Chinese side they have 76th and 77th group army (~150,000 men) and 3 Brigades (~18-20K) BTW only these 3 brigades are any where closer to Indian border. All others are few hundreds kilometre away.

    If they have to bring more men into the theater, they need at least 15 days (very optimistically) to acclimatize in the insane heights of Himalayas. But hey they are super humans. They don't need any acclimatization or logistical support. They can drive their SUV's directly into India.

    Except a very few places, terrain is not suitable for any mechanized warfare. But that restriction applies only to inferior IQ people. Geographical constraints do not apply to Chinese supermen.

    When it comes to Airforce, things like lack of facilities in Tibet, very few air to air refuelers etc do not matter. Of course Chinese are superior. Silly things ability to operate at max 288 modern airplanes or constraints like lifting only half the payload when taking off from Tibet are irrelevant.

    Since Indians are 70 IQ inferior people, they are not going to disrupt G-19 highway parallel to the LAC, through which ALL Chinese supplies have to pass. Similarly the bridges on the crucial logistical arteries like Lhasa-G219 route or Hotan-G219 route will not be taken out by India because of their inferior IQ.

    Did I mention about happy Tibetians who would never sabotage Chinese logistical tails?

    India stands no chance.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @lin

  178. @Philip Owen
    The largest army of WW2 was the British 14th army, largely composed of Indian units with most other troops from Africa. It took a while to assemble and train. Once it was in place, it pushed the Japanese back without let up. The victory was won in battle not by manouvre. The Japanese took their biggest land losses of the war against the 14th Army. The Kwantung Army that surrendered to the Soviet Union was bigger than the prisonor count of the 14th Army but not by much prior to surrender. The Kwantung Army put up no serious fight. It did not have the supplies.

    After independence, the short lived Dominion of India invaded 600 independent states to form the modern Indian federation. This was an act of substantial skill by the Indian Army, which still included former British officers in the general staff of the time.

    So, the Indian Army has a substantial tradition of success of its own. It is not going to retreat quickly in front of the PLA. The PLA will have to earn its victories by battles. Losses will be high on both sides but the Indian Army has a tradition of coming back from large losses. The PLA overwhelmed Chiang with a vast quantity of surplus Soviet weapons and supplies, not battle victories.

    Replies: @82-IQ H1B Indian

    Philip,

    Shhh….

    There is a near unanimous conclusion on this thread that China will beat the living day lights out of India with out breaking a sweat. Since this is a 104 IQ China vs 70 IQ India, IQ worshiping Unzites are rooting for Chinese organ harvesters against dirty Indians 🙂

    Of course India has around 13.5 Divisions facing China along LAC
    (XIV corps – 2 divisions and 1 armored brigade = 25,000 +25,000 + 4000 = 54,000 Men
    IX Corps – 25,000 men
    1 reserve division 25,000 men
    XXXIII corps – 3 divisions and 1 art brigade = 25,000 * 3 + 4000 = 79,000 men
    IV corps – 3 Div =75,000 Men
    III corps – 3 Div =75,000 Men
    XVII corps – 1.5 Division = 40,000 Men
    Total army men tasked with China = 290,000 Men
    )

    On Chinese side they have 76th and 77th group army (~150,000 men) and 3 Brigades (~18-20K) BTW only these 3 brigades are any where closer to Indian border. All others are few hundreds kilometre away.

    If they have to bring more men into the theater, they need at least 15 days (very optimistically) to acclimatize in the insane heights of Himalayas. But hey they are super humans. They don’t need any acclimatization or logistical support. They can drive their SUV’s directly into India.

    Except a very few places, terrain is not suitable for any mechanized warfare. But that restriction applies only to inferior IQ people. Geographical constraints do not apply to Chinese supermen.

    When it comes to Airforce, things like lack of facilities in Tibet, very few air to air refuelers etc do not matter. Of course Chinese are superior. Silly things ability to operate at max 288 modern airplanes or constraints like lifting only half the payload when taking off from Tibet are irrelevant.

    Since Indians are 70 IQ inferior people, they are not going to disrupt G-19 highway parallel to the LAC, through which ALL Chinese supplies have to pass. Similarly the bridges on the crucial logistical arteries like Lhasa-G219 route or Hotan-G219 route will not be taken out by India because of their inferior IQ.

    Did I mention about happy Tibetians who would never sabotage Chinese logistical tails?

    India stands no chance.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    @82-IQ H1B Indian

    https://exiledonline.com/war-nerd-called-it-indians-and-pakis-too-faggy-for-war/all/1/


    True, the Indians have beaten the Pakistanis three times out of three (in 1947, 1965 and 1971). But look at what happened the one time they tried fighting a real army: the India-China war of 1962. India decided that its new status as world power required it to grab a few square miles of Himalayan wasteland from China. They worked themselves up into a war frenzy and attacked the Chinese. The Chinese, who don’t do woofing, made no boasts, tried smoothing things over, and when that failed, quietly flattened the Indian army. It was a rout: mustaches and swaggersticks sprinting downhill so fast the snow hadn’t yet melted on their helmets when they hit 120-degree Delhi. After that, the Indians decided they’d stick to picking on someone less than half their own size: the Pakistanis.
     

    Replies: @82-IQ H1B Indian

    , @lin
    @82-IQ H1B Indian


    they need at least 15 days (very optimistically) to acclimatize in the insane heights of Himalayas
     
    The area of recent conflict is about 5100 m ASL and I had been to Eastern china (18 yrs ago, inside a car on the hi-way)at 4300 m ASL(GSP confirmed) and I don't think it'll take at least 15 days for Chinese grunts to adapt.
    **High altitude airfields in Tibet means the planes can't take off with heavy loads but air-defense is quite sufficient.
    **Bear in mind, the indian army has the following problems:
    1)Low weapons spendings as % of budget, high manpower spendings. Indian army at 1.4 millions is the biggest army in the world and that of china at less than 1 million is the 3rd.
    2)Probably low weapon stockpiles.
    **The Chinese army has recruiting problem;Young Chinese school leavers want to go to college. Chinese army recruiters now focus on college grads. Drones and robots are being emphasized.
    **According to Swedish SIPRI, India and china respectively spend 2.5% and 1.9% of GDP on their military. The Indians will make a new version of Russian AK-47 I read.
    **Tibet is thinly propulated but some indian states just south of Himalays are very heavily populated. I checked that Bihar and Uttar Pradesh have a combined population of 369 millions(> than US total) in 2020. The most developed parts of china is 1000s of km from indian border.
    **I've no data on the new china Rocket Force(a separate branch of the Chinese military)but certainly Chinese industry can mass produce short range guided missiles which put all the northern indian military installations within range.
    ………
    Certainly it will be nightmare to Chinese leaders if 100s of 1000s of indian soldiers march towards the border
  179. The following is the most detailed timeline on the clash so far.

    1. Token disengagements followed the Lt Gen-level talks between India and China that were held on June 6 in a bid to resolve the month-long border standoff in Eastern Ladakh.

    2. Mid-week, the Chinese came back and set up camp on the Indian side. India dismantled the camp, following which a scuffle broke out between the troops of both the sides, injuring several soldiers.

    3. The Chinese troops went back only to return in larger numbers over the weekend. Some stone-pelting took place on Sunday, June 14.

    4. On Monday (June 15) evening, clashes broke out on a ridgeline with a high drop towards the Galwan river. The clashes escalated rapidly and according to sources, many Indians soldiers fell into the river during the scuffle.

    After India and China had agreed that Chinese troops would further disengage and return to their territory in Ladakh’s Galwan Valley on June 6, talks between major generals of both sides were supposed to take place on June 16.

    5. As the PLA troops didn’t move back, an unarmed patrol team of the Indian Army led by Colonel Santosh Babu of 16 Bihar Regiment set out to hold a discussion with the Chinese side.

    The Chinese refused to move back and deliberately aggravated the situation. They started to attack the Indian delegation with boulders, rocks wrapped with barbed wire and wooden log with nails around them. The Indian side also retaliated.

    Indian military sources said no firearms were used in the clashes and that most of the injuries were sustained following stone-pelting and use of rods by the Chinese side.

    6. After the first hit by the Chinese troops, the CO was grievously injured. Indian troops took the CO and an injured havaldar back, leaving behind some injured soldiers, who were taken captive immediately by the Chinese side.

    7. After nearly 40 minutes, the same unit, led by a Major, went back to that particular area and raided again. Once they reached the site, things escalated even further.

    8. The Indian troops assaulted the Chinese post with brutal strength and seriously injured nearly 55-56 Chinese solider. Many casualties were inflicted at this point. Sources said there were many fatalities on the Chinese side but there was no confirmation on the exact number.

    All this was happening near a ridge and many of the soldiers were pushed down a cliff into the narrow, fast-moving Galwan river. The Indian party was vastly outnumbered by the Chinese, as per sources.

    This is the time when many of the casualties on the Indian and Chinese side happened.

    There apparently was a brigadier-level Chinese officer on the post who waved for peace asking the troops to stop fighting.

    9. Hand-to-hand fighting continued late into the night. Stones and metal clubs with barbed wire were heavily used, due to which, many suffered head injuries.

    10. The clash went on for over three hours.

    11. Fighting stopped well after midnight. Several bodies of the soldiers were fished from the river, while, many injured succumbed by morning, sources said.

    Sources said that multiple Colonel-to-Colonel-level talks from both sides took place at the very same post during the day. Army has now taken charge of the Indo-Tibetan Border Police (ITBP) posts.

    https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/bloody-india-china-faceoff-at-lac-timeline-of-galwan-clash-1689785-2020-06-17

    • Replies: @Passerby60
    @china-russia-all-the-way

    That was the timeline given by Indian sources, so take it with a pinch of salt.

    As Dennis Etler wrote:

    The responses of India and China to the border conflict are very telling, and it shows which side is most likely responsible.

    India is using the conflict to whip up nationalist fervor with news reports inveighing against Chinese aggression. This is the standard playbook for a nation in crisis, It is a distraction from India's intractable problems exacerbated by the COVID-19 pandemic and a failing economy. It is also using the conflict to get US backing for its fascistic Hindutva government which is oppressing Muslims in Kasmir-Jamma and Assam.

    China, on the other hand, is downplaying the conflict in its media, and preventing xenophobic sentiments from proliferating on the internet. China wants to resolve the conflict by consultations with India, while India's Modi says its soldiers will "not die in vain."

    These differing responses show that India is using the conflict to push its own domestic and foreign agendas while China wants to dampen down and resolve it.

    It should be clear which side has ulterior motives.

    Replies: @82-IQ H1B Indian, @eastkekiisawhiteguy

    , @Showmethereal
    @china-russia-all-the-way

    You honestly believe Indian news? Their neighbors in Nepal dont trust them.

    https://asiatimes.com/2020/06/india-paying-price-for-modis-myopic-china-strategy/?_gl=1*ykxccr*_ga*NTcyNzIzMzM4LjE1NTA2ODMwNTk.

  180. @82-IQ H1B Indian
    @Philip Owen

    Philip,

    Shhh....

    There is a near unanimous conclusion on this thread that China will beat the living day lights out of India with out breaking a sweat. Since this is a 104 IQ China vs 70 IQ India, IQ worshiping Unzites are rooting for Chinese organ harvesters against dirty Indians :-)

    Of course India has around 13.5 Divisions facing China along LAC
    (XIV corps - 2 divisions and 1 armored brigade = 25,000 +25,000 + 4000 = 54,000 Men
    IX Corps - 25,000 men
    1 reserve division 25,000 men
    XXXIII corps - 3 divisions and 1 art brigade = 25,000 * 3 + 4000 = 79,000 men
    IV corps - 3 Div =75,000 Men
    III corps - 3 Div =75,000 Men
    XVII corps - 1.5 Division = 40,000 Men
    Total army men tasked with China = 290,000 Men
    )

    On Chinese side they have 76th and 77th group army (~150,000 men) and 3 Brigades (~18-20K) BTW only these 3 brigades are any where closer to Indian border. All others are few hundreds kilometre away.

    If they have to bring more men into the theater, they need at least 15 days (very optimistically) to acclimatize in the insane heights of Himalayas. But hey they are super humans. They don't need any acclimatization or logistical support. They can drive their SUV's directly into India.

    Except a very few places, terrain is not suitable for any mechanized warfare. But that restriction applies only to inferior IQ people. Geographical constraints do not apply to Chinese supermen.

    When it comes to Airforce, things like lack of facilities in Tibet, very few air to air refuelers etc do not matter. Of course Chinese are superior. Silly things ability to operate at max 288 modern airplanes or constraints like lifting only half the payload when taking off from Tibet are irrelevant.

    Since Indians are 70 IQ inferior people, they are not going to disrupt G-19 highway parallel to the LAC, through which ALL Chinese supplies have to pass. Similarly the bridges on the crucial logistical arteries like Lhasa-G219 route or Hotan-G219 route will not be taken out by India because of their inferior IQ.

    Did I mention about happy Tibetians who would never sabotage Chinese logistical tails?

    India stands no chance.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @lin

    https://exiledonline.com/war-nerd-called-it-indians-and-pakis-too-faggy-for-war/all/1/

    True, the Indians have beaten the Pakistanis three times out of three (in 1947, 1965 and 1971). But look at what happened the one time they tried fighting a real army: the India-China war of 1962. India decided that its new status as world power required it to grab a few square miles of Himalayan wasteland from China. They worked themselves up into a war frenzy and attacked the Chinese. The Chinese, who don’t do woofing, made no boasts, tried smoothing things over, and when that failed, quietly flattened the Indian army. It was a rout: mustaches and swaggersticks sprinting downhill so fast the snow hadn’t yet melted on their helmets when they hit 120-degree Delhi. After that, the Indians decided they’d stick to picking on someone less than half their own size: the Pakistanis.

    • Replies: @82-IQ H1B Indian
    @Daniel Chieh

    Of course 1962 was a disaster for India. I will not even go into the reasons for that. But you forgot to mention

    1. Nathu La and Cho La clashes (1967) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathu_La_and_Cho_La_clashes

    2. 1987 Sino-Indian skirmish - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1987_Sino-Indian_skirmish

    3. 2017 China–India border standoff - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_China%E2%80%93India_border_standoff

    Just 3 years ago China huffed & puffed and threatened with dire consequences and when India did not blink, tucked its tail and went back. (I wonder- is there is any Unz thread on Doklam issue in 2017?)

    If you think that China kept quite for all these years because of its magnanimity, then good luck to you.

    India cannot invade and conquer China but can definitely defend itself. Current clashes are excellent opportunity to observe it in real time. India wins by not losing, where as China loses by not winning. Let's wait and watch for next 3 months if China can take over Galvan valley or not.

    Peace.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh

  181. @Daniel Chieh
    @82-IQ H1B Indian

    https://exiledonline.com/war-nerd-called-it-indians-and-pakis-too-faggy-for-war/all/1/


    True, the Indians have beaten the Pakistanis three times out of three (in 1947, 1965 and 1971). But look at what happened the one time they tried fighting a real army: the India-China war of 1962. India decided that its new status as world power required it to grab a few square miles of Himalayan wasteland from China. They worked themselves up into a war frenzy and attacked the Chinese. The Chinese, who don’t do woofing, made no boasts, tried smoothing things over, and when that failed, quietly flattened the Indian army. It was a rout: mustaches and swaggersticks sprinting downhill so fast the snow hadn’t yet melted on their helmets when they hit 120-degree Delhi. After that, the Indians decided they’d stick to picking on someone less than half their own size: the Pakistanis.
     

    Replies: @82-IQ H1B Indian

    Of course 1962 was a disaster for India. I will not even go into the reasons for that. But you forgot to mention

    1. Nathu La and Cho La clashes (1967) – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathu_La_and_Cho_La_clashes

    2. 1987 Sino-Indian skirmish – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1987_Sino-Indian_skirmish

    3. 2017 China–India border standoff – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_China%E2%80%93India_border_standoff

    Just 3 years ago China huffed & puffed and threatened with dire consequences and when India did not blink, tucked its tail and went back. (I wonder- is there is any Unz thread on Doklam issue in 2017?)

    If you think that China kept quite for all these years because of its magnanimity, then good luck to you.

    India cannot invade and conquer China but can definitely defend itself. Current clashes are excellent opportunity to observe it in real time. India wins by not losing, where as China loses by not winning. Let’s wait and watch for next 3 months if China can take over Galvan valley or not.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    @82-IQ H1B Indian

    None of those show India with any competence.



    If you think that China kept quite for all these years because of its magnanimity, then good luck to you.

    India cannot invade and conquer China but can definitely defend itself. Current clashes are excellent opportunity to observe it in real time. India wins by not losing, where as China loses by not winning.
     
    Nope. China takes up a lot of free real estate in the Indian pysche, but by and large, the Chinese really couldn't be bothered to care to think about India, beyond the weirdness of a country that has just(as of 2018) completed providing electrical power to all of its population that continually thinks of itself as some sort of superpower.

    There is by and large, no real advantage to any serious effort against India. A few ultranationalists aside, the material gain is minimal. But in any actual conflict, the gap between military power is laughable.

    Replies: @Philip Owen

  182. China has a history of solving territorial disputes amicably.

    “Since 1949 (till 2005), China has settled seventeen of its twenty-three territorial disputes. Moreover, it has offered substantial compromises in most of these settlements, usually receiving less than 50 percent of the contested land. China’s pattern of compromise in its territorial disputes presents several puzzles. For realists, China has not used its power advantages to bargain hard over contested land, especially with its weaker neighbors. Nor has it become less willing to offer concessions over disputed territory as its power has increased. Instead, China compromised in eight separate disputes as its power grew rapidly in the 1990s.” (https://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1162/016228805775124534)

    Meanwhile India has territorial disputes with China, Pakistan, Myanmar, and Nepal. Her territorial dispute with Bangladesh took 68 years to resolve. It comes to show that India is a very uncompromising negotiator.

    Many times since 1959, China had offered to settle her territorial dispute with India by legitimizing the Line of Actual Control, whereby China will keep Aksai China and India will keep Arunachal Pradesh. This is a very good deal for India because Aksai China is a barren land one-third the size of Arunachal Pradesh; Arunachal Pradesh on the other hand is built-up and has more than a million population. Unfortunately, India had always rejected this deal

    Prior to the 1962 Sino-Indian border conflict, India applied the Forward Policy. While the Forward Policy was initially intended to prevent the Chinese from advancing into empty areas (by occupying them first), “it was now decided to push back the Chinese from posts they already occupied.” Whereas Indian troops were previously ordered to fire only in self-defense, all post commanders were now given discretion to open fire upon Chinese forces if threatened. Eventually this forced China to go on the offensive and she managed to take over all the disputed territories. Despite this achievement, China chose to unilaterally called a cease fire and withdrew to pre-conflict lines. This shows that China is sincere in legitimizing the Line of Actual Control.

    India should have taken this as a gesture of goodwill and accepted the deal.

    India was the country that had annexed the most lands after WWII:
    •  1947 Princely state of Junagadh. After the ruler of Junagadh chose to merge with Pakistan, India invaded and annexed the state.
    • 1947 Jammu and Kashmir.
    • 1948 Hyderabad. India invaded the independent Hyderabad, killing 200000 people in the process, and annexed her.
    • 1961 Goa. India invaded Goa, which was a colony of Portugal, and annexed it.
    • 1975 Kingdom of Sikkim. India invaded Sikkim, put the king under house-arrest, ran a mock referendum and annexed the country. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1975_Sikkimese_monarchy_referendum)

    • Replies: @DB Cooper
    @Passerby60

    China actually made a huge mistake by offering to settle South Tibet because India took that as a weakness and exploit it ever since. This is why after the annexation of Tawang India unilaterally adjusted the so called MacMahon line (which is based on a diplomatic forgery and no Chinese government has ever accepted) and push further north to grab more land. India was too greedy and never took up China's offer. Had India sign the border agreement India could have legally annexed South Tibet. Today South Tibet is a United Nation recognized disputed territory, making India the only country occupyiny two UN recognized disputed territories. The other being Kashmir.

  183. @china-russia-all-the-way
    The following is the most detailed timeline on the clash so far.

    1. Token disengagements followed the Lt Gen-level talks between India and China that were held on June 6 in a bid to resolve the month-long border standoff in Eastern Ladakh.

    2. Mid-week, the Chinese came back and set up camp on the Indian side. India dismantled the camp, following which a scuffle broke out between the troops of both the sides, injuring several soldiers.

    3. The Chinese troops went back only to return in larger numbers over the weekend. Some stone-pelting took place on Sunday, June 14.

    4. On Monday (June 15) evening, clashes broke out on a ridgeline with a high drop towards the Galwan river. The clashes escalated rapidly and according to sources, many Indians soldiers fell into the river during the scuffle.

    After India and China had agreed that Chinese troops would further disengage and return to their territory in Ladakh's Galwan Valley on June 6, talks between major generals of both sides were supposed to take place on June 16.

    5. As the PLA troops didn't move back, an unarmed patrol team of the Indian Army led by Colonel Santosh Babu of 16 Bihar Regiment set out to hold a discussion with the Chinese side.

    The Chinese refused to move back and deliberately aggravated the situation. They started to attack the Indian delegation with boulders, rocks wrapped with barbed wire and wooden log with nails around them. The Indian side also retaliated.

    Indian military sources said no firearms were used in the clashes and that most of the injuries were sustained following stone-pelting and use of rods by the Chinese side.

    6. After the first hit by the Chinese troops, the CO was grievously injured. Indian troops took the CO and an injured havaldar back, leaving behind some injured soldiers, who were taken captive immediately by the Chinese side.

    7. After nearly 40 minutes, the same unit, led by a Major, went back to that particular area and raided again. Once they reached the site, things escalated even further.

    8. The Indian troops assaulted the Chinese post with brutal strength and seriously injured nearly 55-56 Chinese solider. Many casualties were inflicted at this point. Sources said there were many fatalities on the Chinese side but there was no confirmation on the exact number.

    All this was happening near a ridge and many of the soldiers were pushed down a cliff into the narrow, fast-moving Galwan river. The Indian party was vastly outnumbered by the Chinese, as per sources.

    This is the time when many of the casualties on the Indian and Chinese side happened.

    There apparently was a brigadier-level Chinese officer on the post who waved for peace asking the troops to stop fighting.

    9. Hand-to-hand fighting continued late into the night. Stones and metal clubs with barbed wire were heavily used, due to which, many suffered head injuries.

    10. The clash went on for over three hours.

    11. Fighting stopped well after midnight. Several bodies of the soldiers were fished from the river, while, many injured succumbed by morning, sources said.

    Sources said that multiple Colonel-to-Colonel-level talks from both sides took place at the very same post during the day. Army has now taken charge of the Indo-Tibetan Border Police (ITBP) posts.
     
    https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/bloody-india-china-faceoff-at-lac-timeline-of-galwan-clash-1689785-2020-06-17

    Replies: @Passerby60, @Showmethereal

    That was the timeline given by Indian sources, so take it with a pinch of salt.

    As Dennis Etler wrote:

    The responses of India and China to the border conflict are very telling, and it shows which side is most likely responsible.

    India is using the conflict to whip up nationalist fervor with news reports inveighing against Chinese aggression. This is the standard playbook for a nation in crisis, It is a distraction from India’s intractable problems exacerbated by the COVID-19 pandemic and a failing economy. It is also using the conflict to get US backing for its fascistic Hindutva government which is oppressing Muslims in Kasmir-Jamma and Assam.

    China, on the other hand, is downplaying the conflict in its media, and preventing xenophobic sentiments from proliferating on the internet. China wants to resolve the conflict by consultations with India, while India’s Modi says its soldiers will “not die in vain.”

    These differing responses show that India is using the conflict to push its own domestic and foreign agendas while China wants to dampen down and resolve it.

    It should be clear which side has ulterior motives.

    • Replies: @82-IQ H1B Indian
    @Passerby60


    Hindutva government which is oppressing Muslims in Kasmir-Jamma and Assam.
     
    ROTFLMAO. I got to give it to China. They run concentration camps for Uyghur muslims (ahem re-education camps), harvest organs of political opponents and then lecture democratic countries.

    But to be fair to you, you chose the right website for pushing your agenda. On this website 104 IQ Chinese are god-tier people who are beyond any reproach and 70 IQ Indians are worse than vermin. So go ahead with your sermon.

    @Daniel Chieh

    Nope. China takes up a lot of free real estate in the Indian pysche, but by and large, the Chinese really couldn’t be bothered to care to think about India, beyond the weirdness of a country that has just(as of 2018) completed providing electrical power to all of its population that continually thinks of itself as some sort of superpower.
     
    But somehow you are obsessed about proving how inferior India is compared to mighty middle kingdom :-)

    There is by and large, no real advantage to any serious effort against India. A few ultranationalists aside, the material gain is minimal. But in any actual conflict, the gap between military power is laughable.
     
    I am sure. But.....

    It is very well known that China runs a very large trade surplus with US. Do you know the country which is number 2 in list of countries that China has very large surplus?
    India. China runs a trade surplus of ~60 Billion annually. China would have probably made around half trillion in next 5-7 years but it won't happen now. There is a massive pressure on Govt to curb trade ties. What you think is jingoistic chest thumping nationalism is democratic pressure on the govt by the people.

    All of it could have been avoided if China did not try to unilaterally change the status quo on the border. If you think India initiated this then think again. India is consistently asking for pre-April 2020 status quo. China agreed to that at multiple levels and then refused to comply on the ground.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @Astuteobservor II, @AnonFromTN, @DB Cooper

    , @eastkekiisawhiteguy
    @Passerby60

    Take anything on indian news media with a grain of salt, everything on their news is a carbon copy of what fox or trump or cnn put on blast ,they dont know much about china so they have to depend on the american news,the indian news media coverage of corona virus is identical to americans nothing is original.

    Replies: @showmethereal

  184. @82-IQ H1B Indian
    @Daniel Chieh

    Of course 1962 was a disaster for India. I will not even go into the reasons for that. But you forgot to mention

    1. Nathu La and Cho La clashes (1967) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathu_La_and_Cho_La_clashes

    2. 1987 Sino-Indian skirmish - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1987_Sino-Indian_skirmish

    3. 2017 China–India border standoff - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_China%E2%80%93India_border_standoff

    Just 3 years ago China huffed & puffed and threatened with dire consequences and when India did not blink, tucked its tail and went back. (I wonder- is there is any Unz thread on Doklam issue in 2017?)

    If you think that China kept quite for all these years because of its magnanimity, then good luck to you.

    India cannot invade and conquer China but can definitely defend itself. Current clashes are excellent opportunity to observe it in real time. India wins by not losing, where as China loses by not winning. Let's wait and watch for next 3 months if China can take over Galvan valley or not.

    Peace.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    None of those show India with any competence.

    If you think that China kept quite for all these years because of its magnanimity, then good luck to you.

    India cannot invade and conquer China but can definitely defend itself. Current clashes are excellent opportunity to observe it in real time. India wins by not losing, where as China loses by not winning.

    Nope. China takes up a lot of free real estate in the Indian pysche, but by and large, the Chinese really couldn’t be bothered to care to think about India, beyond the weirdness of a country that has just(as of 2018) completed providing electrical power to all of its population that continually thinks of itself as some sort of superpower.

    There is by and large, no real advantage to any serious effort against India. A few ultranationalists aside, the material gain is minimal. But in any actual conflict, the gap between military power is laughable.

    • Replies: @Philip Owen
    @Daniel Chieh

    Only three years ago, I was watching a prgramme about a village in the Chinese interior debating what to do about their first tap with running water - for the village. Both countries still contain huge pockets of extreme poverty. Most of the world's poorest billion live in India and China not in the 50 poorest countries in GDP/capita terms.

    Replies: @Blinky Bill

  185. @Rev. Spooner
    @DB Cooper

    Thats because historically there is no such thing as India. India has existed for a total of seventy three years when in 1947 the British gifted the country they so assiduously created to the subcons.

    Wow Mr DB Cooper, you disregard historical accounts for technicalities. If we apply the same yardsticks, then Italy was the same, as was the USA, Russia and every country in the world except for some tiny Pacific atolls. Most countries were tiny fiefdoms that grew to become what they are today.
    As for India, the whole ancient world acknowledged India's geographical location and approximate territorial borders long before they were even aware of the western barbarians.

    Replies: @DB Cooper

    Bunch of nonsense.

    • Replies: @Rev. Spooner
    @DB Cooper

    And I say to you Mr Poocer, you write a "Nunch of Bonsence". Have a doog gay.

  186. @reiner Tor
    @DB Cooper

    It’s not like China is liked by its neighbors.

    Replies: @DB Cooper

    That’s not true. China has friendly relations with most of its neighbors.

  187. @Not Only Wrathful
    @Daniel Chieh

    Your points as regards Hong Kong and Taiwan are in direct contradiction. If Taiwan siding with Japan is an insufferable insult, then HK siding with everyone but the CCP is much more so.

    Your comparison, of the Chinese aggression on Vietnam, with a potential conflict with India, is also inapt, for the purposes you used it for.

    Vietnam as good as won, despite being a far less insurmountable target for China than India would be.

    The CCP would have to be bonkers to make any serious aggression on India. That you can't see it, suggests a serious problem with your perception.

    Your rationale of wars of attrition making more industrialised countries stronger, has no basis in history. Especially ones that don't end in the total defeat of the enemy, which China would be completely incapable of doing...except perhaps by moving to some sort of total war footing and with a lot of luck and no outside intervention; but China would destroy itself to do that.

    I perhaps shouldn't be taking this whole conversation seriously. Both Chinese and Indians are real men and both countries are perfect and have no flaws; except that they are too good, or smart or amazing or something...

    Replies: @showmethereal

    How did Vietnam win when it couldn’t get back it’s territory for over 10 years until they signed an official agreement?

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    @showmethereal

    Because he could not read the very article linked helpfully for him.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Vietnamese_conflicts,_1979%E2%80%931991

    Let's help him.

    https://imgur.com/jcW413N

    Besides that, the original Chinese objective was to keep Cambodia independent and that was the fundamental strategic goal which was successful. Cambodia remains one of the most pro-Chinese states in Asia.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambodia%E2%80%93China_relations


    Since 1997, China began developing closer relations with the regime of Cambodian Prime Minister Hun Sen, once a pro-Vietnamese leader and a defector from the Khmer Rouge during Vietnam's occupation of Cambodia. Although initially backing Hun Sen's political opponent Prince Norodom Ranariddh and his FUNCINPEC, China was disenchanted with Ranaridh's efforts to build a closer relationship with Taiwan, which is claimed by China. Facing international isolation after the 1997 coup that brought him to power, Hun Sen cultivated close ties with China, which opposed efforts by Western countries to impose economic sanctions on Cambodia. China's close ties with Cambodia have also served to gain leverage against Vietnamese influence in the region. Cambodia has severed all links with Taiwan and has strongly supported the reunification of Taiwan with China.
     
    As I've implied before, China is perfectly capable of playing the long game and thus does not need to inflict knockout blows, but can engage in levels of "gray zone" warfare short of total war to gain strategic advantage.

    And thus yes, forcing a lesser-industrialized rival to engage in a long war or engaging its policy such that it has to excessively spend on "gun' versus butter goods, is something that can be done. This was exactly what was done to Vietnam, as China pursued a normal foreign policy and economic building with the rest of the world, while the low-level war with Vietnam forced it to continually invest in the military. The 1992 concessions ultimately gained were not through any massive victory, but this grinding attrition that forced Vietnam to concede.

    The same await India if she chooses to engage in war, so as long as foreign actors don't get involved. That, unfortunately, is probably not guaranteed.

    Replies: @Not Only Wrathful, @Showmethereal, @reiner Tor

  188. DB Cooper says:
    June 18, 2020 at 1:59 am GMT • 100 Words   
    @Passerby60
    China has a history of solving territorial disputes amicably.

    "Since 1949 (till 2005), China has settled seventeen of its twenty-three territorial disputes. Moreover, it has offered substantial compromises in most of these settlements, usually receiving less than 50 percent of the contested land. China’s pattern of compromise in its territorial disputes presents several puzzles. For realists, China has not used its power advantages to bargain hard over contested land, especially with its weaker neighbors. Nor has it become less willing to offer concessions over disputed territory as its power has increased. Instead, China compromised in eight separate disputes as its power grew rapidly in the 1990s." (https://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1162/016228805775124534)

    Meanwhile India has territorial disputes with China, Pakistan, Myanmar, and Nepal. Her territorial dispute with Bangladesh took 68 years to resolve. It comes to show that India is a very uncompromising negotiator.

    Many times since 1959, China had offered to settle her territorial dispute with India by legitimizing the Line of Actual Control, whereby China will keep Aksai China and India will keep Arunachal Pradesh. This is a very good deal for India because Aksai China is a barren land one-third the size of Arunachal Pradesh; Arunachal Pradesh on the other hand is built-up and has more than a million population. Unfortunately, India had always rejected this deal

    Prior to the 1962 Sino-Indian border conflict, India applied the Forward Policy. While the Forward Policy was initially intended to prevent the Chinese from advancing into empty areas (by occupying them first), "it was now decided to push back the Chinese from posts they already occupied." Whereas Indian troops were previously ordered to fire only in self-defense, all post commanders were now given discretion to open fire upon Chinese forces if threatened. Eventually this forced China to go on the offensive and she managed to take over all the disputed territories. Despite this achievement, China chose to unilaterally called a cease fire and withdrew to pre-conflict lines. This shows that China is sincere in legitimizing the Line of Actual Control.

    India should have taken this as a gesture of goodwill and accepted the deal.

    India was the country that had annexed the most lands after WWII:
    •  1947 Princely state of Junagadh. After the ruler of Junagadh chose to merge with Pakistan, India invaded and annexed the state.
    • 1947 Jammu and Kashmir.
    • 1948 Hyderabad. India invaded the independent Hyderabad, killing 200000 people in the process, and annexed her.
    • 1961 Goa. India invaded Goa, which was a colony of Portugal, and annexed it.
    • 1975 Kingdom of Sikkim. India invaded Sikkim, put the king under house-arrest, ran a mock referendum and annexed the country. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1975_Sikkimese_monarchy_referendum)

    Replies: @DB Cooper

    China actually made a huge mistake by offering to settle South Tibet because India took that as a weakness and exploit it ever since. This is why after the annexation of Tawang India unilaterally adjusted the so called MacMahon line (which is based on a diplomatic forgery and no Chinese government has ever accepted) and push further north to grab more land. India was too greedy and never took up China’s offer. Had India sign the border agreement India could have legally annexed South Tibet. Today South Tibet is a United Nation recognized disputed territory, making India the only country occupyiny two UN recognized disputed territories. The other being Kashmir.

  189. @Passerby60
    @china-russia-all-the-way

    That was the timeline given by Indian sources, so take it with a pinch of salt.

    As Dennis Etler wrote:

    The responses of India and China to the border conflict are very telling, and it shows which side is most likely responsible.

    India is using the conflict to whip up nationalist fervor with news reports inveighing against Chinese aggression. This is the standard playbook for a nation in crisis, It is a distraction from India's intractable problems exacerbated by the COVID-19 pandemic and a failing economy. It is also using the conflict to get US backing for its fascistic Hindutva government which is oppressing Muslims in Kasmir-Jamma and Assam.

    China, on the other hand, is downplaying the conflict in its media, and preventing xenophobic sentiments from proliferating on the internet. China wants to resolve the conflict by consultations with India, while India's Modi says its soldiers will "not die in vain."

    These differing responses show that India is using the conflict to push its own domestic and foreign agendas while China wants to dampen down and resolve it.

    It should be clear which side has ulterior motives.

    Replies: @82-IQ H1B Indian, @eastkekiisawhiteguy

    Hindutva government which is oppressing Muslims in Kasmir-Jamma and Assam.

    ROTFLMAO. I got to give it to China. They run concentration camps for Uyghur muslims (ahem re-education camps), harvest organs of political opponents and then lecture democratic countries.

    But to be fair to you, you chose the right website for pushing your agenda. On this website 104 IQ Chinese are god-tier people who are beyond any reproach and 70 IQ Indians are worse than vermin. So go ahead with your sermon.

    Nope. China takes up a lot of free real estate in the Indian pysche, but by and large, the Chinese really couldn’t be bothered to care to think about India, beyond the weirdness of a country that has just(as of 2018) completed providing electrical power to all of its population that continually thinks of itself as some sort of superpower.

    But somehow you are obsessed about proving how inferior India is compared to mighty middle kingdom 🙂

    There is by and large, no real advantage to any serious effort against India. A few ultranationalists aside, the material gain is minimal. But in any actual conflict, the gap between military power is laughable.

    I am sure. But…..

    It is very well known that China runs a very large trade surplus with US. Do you know the country which is number 2 in list of countries that China has very large surplus?
    India. China runs a trade surplus of ~60 Billion annually. China would have probably made around half trillion in next 5-7 years but it won’t happen now. There is a massive pressure on Govt to curb trade ties. What you think is jingoistic chest thumping nationalism is democratic pressure on the govt by the people.

    All of it could have been avoided if China did not try to unilaterally change the status quo on the border. If you think India initiated this then think again. India is consistently asking for pre-April 2020 status quo. China agreed to that at multiple levels and then refused to comply on the ground.

    • LOL: Daniel Chieh
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    @82-IQ H1B Indian

    India can thump its chest all it wants, but the industrial capacity isn't going to appear in a fit of ardor. I've heard too many "boycotts" of Chinese products in my life to ever see it matter, but please, believe that this is the one. You should switch to South Korea and not ask too many questions about where the assembled parts come from.

    And no, I don't really care except to state the obvious gap in military capability. I've probably spent as much time explaining to you as it is warrented.

    Though this last one is rich, and certainly worth a quote:



    What you think is jingoistic chest thumping nationalism is democratic pressure on the govt by the people.
     
    Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance. - H. L. Mencken
    , @Astuteobservor II
    @82-IQ H1B Indian

    I bet it is American govt's wet dream right now if China n India gets into a land war.

    What caused this recent "Chinese aggression" or "Indian aggression"? Is it because India recently officially annexed the disputed land?

    What is the cause? No way this happened out of the blue. I read a lot about USA vs China, almost zero on India vs China.

    Replies: @82-IQ H1B Indian

    , @AnonFromTN
    @82-IQ H1B Indian

    I am not a member of the IQ sect, but I have a question: if democracy is so much better than its absence, why is India so far behind China? In 1990 India was ahead in GDP by PPP per capita (~$1,200 vs less than $1,000 in China), but today India is at ~$6,700, while China stands at more than twice that, >$15,000 (https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.CD?locations=CN-IN-GB).

    There are no hungry people in China, whereas in India tens of millions are chronically hungry, millions of children are malnourished. Every person in China has a place to live, whereas in India a sizable fraction of the population has no roof over its head and lives in the street. I am not even mentioning defecation all over the place.

    I know only one big difference: Chinese are essentially irreligious, whereas the majority of Indians are Hindu with caste system. Could that be the factor no democracy can compensate for?

    Replies: @82-IQ H1B Indian, @lin, @Anatoly Karlin

    , @DB Cooper
    @82-IQ H1B Indian

    These kind of accusation only reflects the West and the Indians understanding of human nature given their historical experience but that doesn't make it universally true. Football hooligism is a thing for the British, that doesn't make it true for Indians (or even Americans). For your information so called ethnic oppression does not even existed in China. It is not even a thing, historically or contemporary. Chinese people doesn't even have ethnic slurs for any of its ethnic minorities group, including the Uighurs or the Tibetans. And there are over fifties recognized ethnic minorities group in China. Calling people names is probably the cheapest way to denigrate a people and don't you think before China went full blown on the concentration camps they would at least give the Uyghurs some ethnic slurs?

    Indians of course is a different animal. Ethnic oppression in India is not only a thing, the Indians institutionalized it to a system called the Caste and blessed it with a religion. This is one of the reasons why Indians are an inferior people with an inferior culture.

    Replies: @Anatoly Karlin

  190. @AnonFromTN
    @Showmethereal

    Well, what was one country, the USSR, is now 15 recognized and 6 partially recognized countries. Former Yugoslavia is also 6 recognized and one partially recognized country. Sudan, Ethiopia, and Czechoslovakia became two countries each. Only Germans, in their contrarian fashion, swim against the current: became one country instead of two.

    Replies: @Astuteobservor II, @d dan, @showmethereal

    USSR was not a country…. And all the examples you used have been horror stories… Exactly why China won’t let their country be split up. Germany unified and has prospered. Again – that’s why China wants unification.

  191. @82-IQ H1B Indian
    @Passerby60


    Hindutva government which is oppressing Muslims in Kasmir-Jamma and Assam.
     
    ROTFLMAO. I got to give it to China. They run concentration camps for Uyghur muslims (ahem re-education camps), harvest organs of political opponents and then lecture democratic countries.

    But to be fair to you, you chose the right website for pushing your agenda. On this website 104 IQ Chinese are god-tier people who are beyond any reproach and 70 IQ Indians are worse than vermin. So go ahead with your sermon.

    @Daniel Chieh

    Nope. China takes up a lot of free real estate in the Indian pysche, but by and large, the Chinese really couldn’t be bothered to care to think about India, beyond the weirdness of a country that has just(as of 2018) completed providing electrical power to all of its population that continually thinks of itself as some sort of superpower.
     
    But somehow you are obsessed about proving how inferior India is compared to mighty middle kingdom :-)

    There is by and large, no real advantage to any serious effort against India. A few ultranationalists aside, the material gain is minimal. But in any actual conflict, the gap between military power is laughable.
     
    I am sure. But.....

    It is very well known that China runs a very large trade surplus with US. Do you know the country which is number 2 in list of countries that China has very large surplus?
    India. China runs a trade surplus of ~60 Billion annually. China would have probably made around half trillion in next 5-7 years but it won't happen now. There is a massive pressure on Govt to curb trade ties. What you think is jingoistic chest thumping nationalism is democratic pressure on the govt by the people.

    All of it could have been avoided if China did not try to unilaterally change the status quo on the border. If you think India initiated this then think again. India is consistently asking for pre-April 2020 status quo. China agreed to that at multiple levels and then refused to comply on the ground.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @Astuteobservor II, @AnonFromTN, @DB Cooper

    India can thump its chest all it wants, but the industrial capacity isn’t going to appear in a fit of ardor. I’ve heard too many “boycotts” of Chinese products in my life to ever see it matter, but please, believe that this is the one. You should switch to South Korea and not ask too many questions about where the assembled parts come from.

    And no, I don’t really care except to state the obvious gap in military capability. I’ve probably spent as much time explaining to you as it is warrented.

    Though this last one is rich, and certainly worth a quote:

    What you think is jingoistic chest thumping nationalism is democratic pressure on the govt by the people.

    Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance. – H. L. Mencken

  192. @82-IQ H1B Indian
    @Passerby60


    Hindutva government which is oppressing Muslims in Kasmir-Jamma and Assam.
     
    ROTFLMAO. I got to give it to China. They run concentration camps for Uyghur muslims (ahem re-education camps), harvest organs of political opponents and then lecture democratic countries.

    But to be fair to you, you chose the right website for pushing your agenda. On this website 104 IQ Chinese are god-tier people who are beyond any reproach and 70 IQ Indians are worse than vermin. So go ahead with your sermon.

    @Daniel Chieh

    Nope. China takes up a lot of free real estate in the Indian pysche, but by and large, the Chinese really couldn’t be bothered to care to think about India, beyond the weirdness of a country that has just(as of 2018) completed providing electrical power to all of its population that continually thinks of itself as some sort of superpower.
     
    But somehow you are obsessed about proving how inferior India is compared to mighty middle kingdom :-)

    There is by and large, no real advantage to any serious effort against India. A few ultranationalists aside, the material gain is minimal. But in any actual conflict, the gap between military power is laughable.
     
    I am sure. But.....

    It is very well known that China runs a very large trade surplus with US. Do you know the country which is number 2 in list of countries that China has very large surplus?
    India. China runs a trade surplus of ~60 Billion annually. China would have probably made around half trillion in next 5-7 years but it won't happen now. There is a massive pressure on Govt to curb trade ties. What you think is jingoistic chest thumping nationalism is democratic pressure on the govt by the people.

    All of it could have been avoided if China did not try to unilaterally change the status quo on the border. If you think India initiated this then think again. India is consistently asking for pre-April 2020 status quo. China agreed to that at multiple levels and then refused to comply on the ground.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @Astuteobservor II, @AnonFromTN, @DB Cooper

    I bet it is American govt’s wet dream right now if China n India gets into a land war.

    What caused this recent “Chinese aggression” or “Indian aggression”? Is it because India recently officially annexed the disputed land?

    What is the cause? No way this happened out of the blue. I read a lot about USA vs China, almost zero on India vs China.

    • Replies: @82-IQ H1B Indian
    @Astuteobservor II

    Very briefly....

    Both India and China used to have very pathetic infra in the border region. Since 2000 China furiously built infra all over the border (to be fair they went on a massive infra spree all over their country and they did the same near LOC).
    That sent major alarm bells in New Delhi and India started building infra on its side of the border. This started around a decade ago. India is still catching up on border infra and will probably take another 4-5 years (it is extremely difficult to build in the 10-15 km altitude of Himalayas. There are several "world record" roads and tunnels were built there.

    This alarmed Chinese side. Although China dwarfs India economically and industrially, In the Himalayan theater, India has geographic/logistical advantages. This is the root cause of current conflict.

    3 years ago another confrontation happened in a tri-junction area. ( read this ==> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_China%E2%80%93India_border_standoff )

    It is also similar to what we are seeing now. China backed off in 2017. Lets see how it unfolds now.

    India is asking for status quo as of Apr 2020 to be restored. China agreed several times during flag meetings but did not move back on ground.

    Replies: @DB Cooper, @Astuteobservor II, @Showmethereal

  193. @Pentheus
    China vs. India war, if it ever happened: no contest.

    Chinese = army ants on the march
    Indians = mouse infestation

    Mice in large numbers become a self-cancelling self-liability of feces and starvation. (India is a literal "shithole" of overpopulation, feces, trash, and hunger.) Ants in large numbers are the true nature of ants. (Much of China is still primitive but there is not shit in the streets.)

    Stinging army ants can outswarm mouse hordes easily. Mice can never outswarm or even really hurt an army ant swarm on the march. Ants as a group are a coordinated thing in itself with a kind of group mind. Mice in a group are just a bunch of individual mice.

    Chinese people with "nothing to lose" are still strong, energetic and willing to die for the group good. Indian people with "nothing to lose" are scrawny, weak, cowardly and worthless militarily. Some Chinese WITH "something to lose" will still be fierce, group-minded, and willing to risk losing it. Indians with "something to lose" wouldn't risk a stubbed toe.

    India could never do what the Chi-Coms did in overwhelming the Americans by sheer numbers, revolutionary esprit, and fearlessness in the Korean War.

    India is the most pathetic country in world history. Alexander the Great, with only a few thousand men, was poised to take over the whole thing - and he knew he could, easily - except that his men rebelled against going any farther away from home. The Mughals took India over, then the Brits.

    Nukes: sure, China and India both have them; but do both sides have equal willingness to USE them? China would not flinch if it were deemed necessary. Every Indian in charge is infected with Western "human rights" and approval-seeking - plus the "divinity is in everything" religious sensibility - which would flinch at hitting "The Button."

    And even just on the individual physical level: what has India ever done in any sports besides cricket?

    Replies: @showmethereal, @d dan

    “Ants as a group are a coordinated thing in itself with a kind of group mind.”

    You mean like this (note how one team guard their marching army diligently):

    https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV117411q7Cm/?spm_id_from=333.788.videocard.0

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    @d dan

    I think recent research has found that ants are actually among the most intelligent insects, even individually.

    https://time.com/118633/ant-intelligence-google/

    Replies: @d dan, @Anatoly Karlin

  194. @Vishnugupta
    @showmethereal

    Well Russia leased us an improved Akula 2 submarine. This is fairly state of the art tech second only to yasen class in terms of technical sophistication as far as Russian SSNs go.It is unlikely this would be done if we were deemed untrustworthy.

    Then there are programs like Brahmos 2 hypersonic cruise missile..It is very unlikely this sort of cooperation would be on offer if Russia has made the sort of assessment you are speculating it has..

    Replies: @showmethereal

    Brahmos started years ago… So are you pretending Russia doesn’t mind India cozying up to 5 Eyes?

    • Replies: @Vishnugupta
    @showmethereal

    Brahmos 2 is effectively a brand new missile based on Zircon.

    Maybe Indians aren't as diplomatically incompetent as some people think we are and have not cozied up with the Anglos to the extent you think we have.

    You seriously think Russia will be handing over state of the art tech to a country deemed compromised for a few billion dollars ?

    Russia has not leased/sold such tech to the Chinese.Dont tell me the PRC would not like to have an Akula2 to study and train its crew on or some Zircon missile derivatives of it's own given the
    US presence in the S China sea.

    Replies: @showmethereal

  195. @showmethereal
    @Not Only Wrathful

    How did Vietnam win when it couldn't get back it's territory for over 10 years until they signed an official agreement?

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    Because he could not read the very article linked helpfully for him.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Vietnamese_conflicts,_1979%E2%80%931991

    Let’s help him.

    View post on imgur.com

    Besides that, the original Chinese objective was to keep Cambodia independent and that was the fundamental strategic goal which was successful. Cambodia remains one of the most pro-Chinese states in Asia.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambodia%E2%80%93China_relations

    Since 1997, China began developing closer relations with the regime of Cambodian Prime Minister Hun Sen, once a pro-Vietnamese leader and a defector from the Khmer Rouge during Vietnam’s occupation of Cambodia. Although initially backing Hun Sen’s political opponent Prince Norodom Ranariddh and his FUNCINPEC, China was disenchanted with Ranaridh’s efforts to build a closer relationship with Taiwan, which is claimed by China. Facing international isolation after the 1997 coup that brought him to power, Hun Sen cultivated close ties with China, which opposed efforts by Western countries to impose economic sanctions on Cambodia. China’s close ties with Cambodia have also served to gain leverage against Vietnamese influence in the region. Cambodia has severed all links with Taiwan and has strongly supported the reunification of Taiwan with China.

    As I’ve implied before, China is perfectly capable of playing the long game and thus does not need to inflict knockout blows, but can engage in levels of “gray zone” warfare short of total war to gain strategic advantage.

    And thus yes, forcing a lesser-industrialized rival to engage in a long war or engaging its policy such that it has to excessively spend on “gun’ versus butter goods, is something that can be done. This was exactly what was done to Vietnam, as China pursued a normal foreign policy and economic building with the rest of the world, while the low-level war with Vietnam forced it to continually invest in the military. The 1992 concessions ultimately gained were not through any massive victory, but this grinding attrition that forced Vietnam to concede.

    The same await India if she chooses to engage in war, so as long as foreign actors don’t get involved. That, unfortunately, is probably not guaranteed.

    • Agree: Showmethereal
    • Replies: @Not Only Wrathful
    @Daniel Chieh

    Cambodia is still ruled by the Vietnamese imposed dictator...

    China also got none of what it set out to do and Vietnam adequately defended itself.

    Regardless, if you want to call the alienation of a bordering country, and others, along with a total strategic failure, somehow a victory because of..."tactical", be my guest.

    It just reinforces to me how talking with so many Chinese about China is like walking on egg shells.

    The Chinese person thinks this makes them strong, as other people feel the need to step extremely carefully; but the Chinese need to do the same egg shell walk internally, as that's the sacrifice of being fragile, and so are incapable of accurate self-reflection.

    So, yes, China are very wise and the Chinese invasion of Vietnam was a success. May the CCP have many more such successes!

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @Blinky Bill, @d dan

    , @Showmethereal
    @Daniel Chieh

    In fairness they probably have only been fed western led anti China propaganda. On any normal planet - if you take and then hold your adversary's territory - you didnt lose. And yes the thinking on Cambodia was long term. That is what happens when you dont have to worry about election cycles.

    , @reiner Tor
    @Daniel Chieh

    Though I doubt that the Chinese leadership in 1979 set out with the goal of forcing Vietnam to abandon Cambodia twelve years later. I think it’s more likely that they simply tried to signal that there would be a cost to invading Chinese allies, so that in the future Vietnam (or other similar countries) would be deterred from doing so. It must be noted that neither side committed all or even most forces available (Vietnam held its regular divisions in reserve, and instead fought mostly with border militias, while China didn’t commit its air force and explicitly promised and held the promise to keep the war limited), but in general it was felt by most international observers that Vietnam outperformed the PLA.

    However it was, it is thought to have been a major impetus for improving the quality of the military and the economy in China, as it was felt that they were not quite up to the task of punishing even a minor power like Vietnam.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh

  196. @Astuteobservor II
    @82-IQ H1B Indian

    I bet it is American govt's wet dream right now if China n India gets into a land war.

    What caused this recent "Chinese aggression" or "Indian aggression"? Is it because India recently officially annexed the disputed land?

    What is the cause? No way this happened out of the blue. I read a lot about USA vs China, almost zero on India vs China.

    Replies: @82-IQ H1B Indian

    Very briefly….

    Both India and China used to have very pathetic infra in the border region. Since 2000 China furiously built infra all over the border (to be fair they went on a massive infra spree all over their country and they did the same near LOC).
    That sent major alarm bells in New Delhi and India started building infra on its side of the border. This started around a decade ago. India is still catching up on border infra and will probably take another 4-5 years (it is extremely difficult to build in the 10-15 km altitude of Himalayas. There are several “world record” roads and tunnels were built there.

    This alarmed Chinese side. Although China dwarfs India economically and industrially, In the Himalayan theater, India has geographic/logistical advantages. This is the root cause of current conflict.

    3 years ago another confrontation happened in a tri-junction area. ( read this ==> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_China%E2%80%93India_border_standoff )

    It is also similar to what we are seeing now. China backed off in 2017. Lets see how it unfolds now.

    India is asking for status quo as of Apr 2020 to be restored. China agreed several times during flag meetings but did not move back on ground.

    • Replies: @DB Cooper
    @82-IQ H1B Indian

    Status quo mean India should return to where they were at August 15, 1947. That means India should vacate Ladkda and South Tibet. India has no business in those area.

    Replies: @82-IQ H1B Indian

    , @Astuteobservor II
    @82-IQ H1B Indian

    That makes no sense. As the Chinese side has way more infrastructure. That goes against your narrative that China started this.

    , @Showmethereal
    @82-IQ H1B Indian

    Ummmm... China kept building its road in 2017. Bhutan told India to mind its business since it was there dispute - not India. India backed down. Wikipedia is not a good arbiter.

  197. @d dan
    @Pentheus


    "Ants as a group are a coordinated thing in itself with a kind of group mind."
     
    You mean like this (note how one team guard their marching army diligently):

    https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV117411q7Cm/?spm_id_from=333.788.videocard.0

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    I think recent research has found that ants are actually among the most intelligent insects, even individually.

    https://time.com/118633/ant-intelligence-google/

    • Replies: @d dan
    @Daniel Chieh


    "I think recent research has found that ants are actually among the most intelligent insects, even individually."
     
    So, do you think ants might be more intelligent than the trolls here, like some who thinks US can impose tariffs to achieve manufacturing greatness, or others who thinks India can win a war against China through its democracy?

    China does not want troubles nor even attention, just quietness in the border, and yet the anti-China forces never rest. Sad: 树欲静而风不息
    , @Anatoly Karlin
    @Daniel Chieh

    Ants are the only insects that pass the mirror test. It is not that common even in the higher animals.

  198. @82-IQ H1B Indian
    @Passerby60


    Hindutva government which is oppressing Muslims in Kasmir-Jamma and Assam.
     
    ROTFLMAO. I got to give it to China. They run concentration camps for Uyghur muslims (ahem re-education camps), harvest organs of political opponents and then lecture democratic countries.

    But to be fair to you, you chose the right website for pushing your agenda. On this website 104 IQ Chinese are god-tier people who are beyond any reproach and 70 IQ Indians are worse than vermin. So go ahead with your sermon.

    @Daniel Chieh

    Nope. China takes up a lot of free real estate in the Indian pysche, but by and large, the Chinese really couldn’t be bothered to care to think about India, beyond the weirdness of a country that has just(as of 2018) completed providing electrical power to all of its population that continually thinks of itself as some sort of superpower.
     
    But somehow you are obsessed about proving how inferior India is compared to mighty middle kingdom :-)

    There is by and large, no real advantage to any serious effort against India. A few ultranationalists aside, the material gain is minimal. But in any actual conflict, the gap between military power is laughable.
     
    I am sure. But.....

    It is very well known that China runs a very large trade surplus with US. Do you know the country which is number 2 in list of countries that China has very large surplus?
    India. China runs a trade surplus of ~60 Billion annually. China would have probably made around half trillion in next 5-7 years but it won't happen now. There is a massive pressure on Govt to curb trade ties. What you think is jingoistic chest thumping nationalism is democratic pressure on the govt by the people.

    All of it could have been avoided if China did not try to unilaterally change the status quo on the border. If you think India initiated this then think again. India is consistently asking for pre-April 2020 status quo. China agreed to that at multiple levels and then refused to comply on the ground.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @Astuteobservor II, @AnonFromTN, @DB Cooper

    I am not a member of the IQ sect, but I have a question: if democracy is so much better than its absence, why is India so far behind China? In 1990 India was ahead in GDP by PPP per capita (~$1,200 vs less than $1,000 in China), but today India is at ~$6,700, while China stands at more than twice that, >$15,000 (https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.CD?locations=CN-IN-GB).

    There are no hungry people in China, whereas in India tens of millions are chronically hungry, millions of children are malnourished. Every person in China has a place to live, whereas in India a sizable fraction of the population has no roof over its head and lives in the street. I am not even mentioning defecation all over the place.

    I know only one big difference: Chinese are essentially irreligious, whereas the majority of Indians are Hindu with caste system. Could that be the factor no democracy can compensate for?

    • Replies: @82-IQ H1B Indian
    @AnonFromTN

    This is an excellent question!

    I cannot explain every single nuance in just one post but before I take it up, let me correct a few things you mentioned in your question.


    There are no hungry people in China, whereas in India tens of millions are chronically hungry, millions of children are malnourished. Every person in China has a place to live, whereas in India a sizable fraction of the population has no roof over its head and lives in the street. I am not even mentioning defecation all over the place.
     
    From 1947 to mid 1990's China had more people in absolute poverty compared to India. India inherited the crown of ignominy in late nineties and passed it to Nigeria 3 years ago. Right now Nigeria has more people in absolute poverty compared to India. India currently has less than 50 million poor people. India has already lifted 250 million people out of poverty in just last 10 years. In next 5 years absolute poverty will be eliminated. Tackling relative poverty and mal-nutrition will come next. Only China did better than India in eliminating poverty.

    Regarding open defecation - Google Swachh Bharat Abiyaan. In 2014 only 38% of rural India had indoor toilets. It rose to 100% by Oct 2019. Even the critics admit that coverage is well over 90% now.

    Similarly there is a near universal banking account & health insurance for 500 million people (both of these took less than 3 years to cover the entire population BTW). 100% electric connections is done & current target is 100% piped water supply by 2022)

    So why did these happen in 5 years after 2014 and not in 60 years before 2014?

    Simple. India had "European" Prime Ministers from 1947 to 2014 and "Asian" Prime Minister from 2014 till date. The current PM of India is similar to Lee Kuan Yew/ Deng Xiaoping/ Park Chung-hee. He studied why Asian nations progressed and India did not and implementing what should have been done 40 years ago. He is not much into intellectualizing things. He is more of an engineer type (what is the problem & how to fix it). India's problems have nothing to do with caste system.

    When India became independent in 1947, it went with extremely idealistic constitution and social policies. With a 90% poverty and illiteracy rate, it went with universal franchise democracy. It may fail in implementation but on statue books the laws would fit nicely to a rich Scandinavian nation :-) Women and lower castes were given right to vote on day 1. Backward castes were given reservations in jobs and education from day 1. It did hurt meritocracy but it was seen that social justice was more important than efficiency.

    Similarly because India was colonized by East India company, the first prime minister disdained private companies. He publicly said that he considered "profit" as a bad word. In his view only govt can save poor from rapacious private enterprise. So systematically Indian private enterprise was destroyed. The public sector with its legendary inefficiency and corruption (monopoly!) neither generated wealth nor efficiency. Before reforms in 1991, Indian govt companies made bread and ran hotels (and everything in between)!!

    He was terrified on Military coup as well just like other third world nations. So, British Indian Army which was the best armed forces in all of Asia was systematically weakened by making it subservient to bureaucracy & promoting "loyal" people. But it didn't last long. 1962 defeat jolted him and since then Indian Armed forces are left mostly to professional soldiers (of course under layers of bureaucratic control)

    All of it came crashing down in 1991 economic crisis. That forced India to dismantle "licence raj" and allow private and foreign companies to do business in India.

    But as I mentioned earlier, the path to hell is paved with good intentions. India wanted to protect vulnerable farmers hence created a nightmare laws that will not let him die but also will not let him prosper (land ceiling act/ APMC/ Minimum support price, Not allowing agri land to change for industrial purposes etc).

    Similarly the playing field is massively rigged in favor of labor (to protect him from exploitative private enterprise you see?) This meant that while other asian countries became export powerhouses we go around bragging how we did not let poor exploited by companies. Changing them against labor will have electoral consequences :-)

    There are tonnes of more issues that I may have skipped but bottom line is that after first prime minister, the current PM of India has the most powerful mandate from the people of India. He is not a capitalist of the Anglo-saxon school. Instead just like post war Germany, Japan, Taiwan, South Korea, Singapore he is mostly in favor of Ordoliberalism ==> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordoliberalism

    Whether India will successfully Industrialize or not will be decided in future (On this forum people are already dead sure that India will never become industrial economy since they have sub-human IQ :-) But when we see North Korea vs South Korea, clearly economic policies do matter)

    Replies: @DB Cooper, @Tor597, @Meena, @Not Only Wrathful, @AnonFromTN, @songbird, @Philip Owen, @Escher

    , @lin
    @AnonFromTN


    In 1990 India was ahead in GDP by PPP per capita (~$1,200 vs less than $1,000 in China), but today India is at ~$6,700, while China stands at more than twice that, >$15,000

     

    Nominal GDP in US$ sure isn't too accurate but PPP GDP is even more so (but there're exception, Russia is a very good example. I was told by a friend who had been to St Petersberg that the ticket to a Swan Lake ballet performance at Mariinsky theatre could be as low as US$30-40, only a fraction of comparable performance elsewhere) because PPP GDP ignores consumption pattern. I definitely would not compare the consumer experience of an average hair cut in new Delhi to that of the average haircut in US.
    …………….
    The poorer the country, the bigger % of income spent on food; and but it so happened that rich countries usually have lower grain production cost mostly due to better tech and mechanisation(developing Brazil and developed Japan are the exceptions). Chinese food grain production/capita in 1978 was over 300 kg while that of india in 2015 was 200 kg.
    The gap between Chinese and indian living standard in 2020 definitely exceeds 15000 to 5700.
    Nominal GDP sure isn't perfect but it's better than PPP GDP
    Air-conditioning penetration 2016 by country(India is in a hotter climate zone than both US and china) https://www.statista.com/statistics/911064/worldwide-air-conditioning-penetration-rate-country/
    , @Anatoly Karlin
    @AnonFromTN


    I know only one big difference: Chinese are essentially irreligious, whereas the majority of Indians are Hindu with caste system.
     
    Explains how 1950s US was such a Third World shithole.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

  199. songbird says:
    June 18, 2020 at 3:54 am GMT • 100 Words   
    @nebulafox
    @songbird

    It was more ethno than religious. The essential issue was that the two Pakistans had Islam in common, and nothing else: not even a common alphabet.

    As was often the case in the Cold War, local regional powers often acted independently of their superpower patrons for their own interests. This isn't to say that superpower behavior was irrelevant, but tangential compared to the interests of the directly involved parties. In the specific case of the 1971 war, the US tilt toward Pakistan was largely about tilting toward China, one of the few reliable go-betweens that could serve Beijing and Washington simultaneously at the time. To this day, China and Pakistan enjoy a very tight relationship, but back then, it was one of the few outside connections that China had to the world that the US also had a friendly relationship with.

    If you'd like to know a little more about the American role specifically, here's an interesting link.

    http://nixontapes.org/india-pakistan.html

    Replies: @songbird

    The President added, “Now, Goddamnit, they’ve got to know this…Goddamnit, who’s giving them a billion dollars a year? Shit, the Russians aren’t giving them a billion dollars a year, Henry.”

    The Nixon tapes are pretty entertaining. Someday, I’d like to hear the one where he calls Indira “an old witch.”
    It is a crying shame that they pulled the tape machine from the Oval Office. (and too bad there are no known tapes of Indira or Mao talking – though I think Mao was bugged, so maybe)

    In many ways, Nixon was flawed, but I think it unlikely that the US will ever have a president as intelligent going forward. Not in its decline.

    • Replies: @nebulafox
    @songbird

    There's no question that Nixon's personal dislike of Gandhi-which stemmed from a variety of factors, one being her hypocrisy on Vietnam-colored his perceptions of that part of the world, but as the tapes show, Anderson was inaccurate in describing that as the main motivator of policy. Nixon and Kissinger distorted a regional conflict into a Cold War theater, contra their memoirs, but they were hardly the first or last Cold War-era leaders to make that mistake, and their acted logically and rationally in terms of policy within the confines of that mistake.

    This is the case for a lot of Nixon-related stuff: it's certainly true that he didn't like black people or hippies, but to ascribe him setting up an entire federal department because of that is just stupid. It moreover overlooks the fact that Ehrlichman dedicated more than half the allocated money to treatment and rehab. The War on Drugs only really took on its modern recognizable form in the 1980s, under Reagan, and by that point, crack cocaine had changed the situation beyond recognition.

    >In many ways, Nixon was flawed, but I think it unlikely that the US will ever have a president as intelligent going forward.

    "Life lessons from Richard Nixon" is a strange moniker, but here's an interesting lesson: Nixon kept a small, hidden room in the EOB where he could go to think without any interruptions. No phone calls, no meetings, etc. There he'd take out his pen and yellow pads, and scribble down whatever ideas came to him on major strategic goals on policy or political tactics. The papers often reveal Nixon at his best, just as the tapes often reveal him at his worst, for a couple of reasons: he wasn't playing an artificial "role" when he was alone, and he was less misanthropic when not forced to interact with people.

    It's paradoxical, but I can relate to that. If you are introverted, this time is not just great for recharging, but planning things out without any overstimulation or surprises. Thinking things through on your own without that pressure will help you respond authentically/honestly when the time comes to respond to others. I think in an age of phones and computers and 24/7 information bombardment, it's all the more important to take some uninterrupted time to think and reflect without artificial distractions.

  200. @A123
    Breaking News (1)

    Calls are growing in India for a boycott of Chinese products after the latest in a string of violent clashes between Indian and Chinese troops along the contested border left 20 Indian soldiers dead.

    The Confederation of All India Traders (CAIT), a powerful small business lobby, condemned “Chinese military aggression” on Wednesday and released a list of “more than 500 broad categories” of imported Chinese goods to boycott.
    ...
    Chinese state media was, unsurprisingly, nonplussed at the prospect of Indian boycotts. China’s Global Times lauded “rational voices in India” who argue that it’s “unrealistic and self-destructive for Asia’s third-largest economy to launch frictions with the largest economy in the region.”
    ...
    Indian Prime Minister Modi sounded like he was in no mood for either threats or lectures from China on Wednesday, vowing that the deaths of Indian soldiers “will not be in vain” and his nation would be “proud that our soldiers died fighting the Chinese.”
     

    This reinforces my point about China's strategic weakness as a predatory goods exporter. Any nation can penalize China's vulnerable export trade surplus at any time.

    The EU is also joining India and the U.S. (2)


    Brussels is set to unveil on Wednesday a proposal for sweeping new powers to crack down on foreign subsidies, in its most aggressive push yet to curb the influence on the European market of companies backed by China and other governments.
    ...
    [The EU] aims to review deals when a foreign company acquires control over an EU target, or at least 35 percent of the voting rights, according to the draft.

    It is also seeking to beef up control over public procurement and access to EU funds to ensure a level playing field between EU businesses and foreign competitors that receive public support.

    In the end, this could mean foreign companies could get fined, be banned from acquiring EU companies or from participating to public tenders in the bloc.
     

    The CCP's incompetence, inflicting WUHAN-19 on other nations, has freed up a huge back log of measures that were previously contained by paid Chinese shills/lobbyists.

    PEACE 😇
    _______

    (1) https://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2020/06/17/indians-call-boycott-china-after-deadly-border-clash/

    (2) https://www.politico.com/news/2020/06/16/brussels-forges-new-weapons-to-shield-eu-market-from-china-325145

    Replies: @last straw

    This reinforces my point about China’s strategic weakness as a predatory goods exporter. Any nation can penalize China’s vulnerable export trade surplus at any time.

    The EU is also joining India and the U.S. (2)

    Did you even read your own link? From the Politico article:

    The EU is seriously upping the ante in its drive to tackle unfair competition from China, the U.S. and other foreign players in the single market.

    Nations have no friends, only interests.

    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
    @last straw

    I think the omission is on purpose so the Zionist troll can build his case.

    His job is to constantly to spout non sense to bury the comments sections.

    It is why you all should ignore the troll, don't feed it.

    Replies: @A123

    , @A123
    @last straw


    Did you even read your own link? From the Politico article:
     
    Yes.

    If you read the proposed EU actions, they will have little to no impact on real U.S. Firms.

    If the EU wants to hammer SJW Globalist multinationals that evade U.S. Taxes.... Any American objection will only be pro forma, at most. Though one imagines the EU will give in to corrupt multinationals before serious penalties are applied.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @last straw

  201. DB Cooper says:
    June 18, 2020 at 4:13 am GMT • 200 Words   
    @82-IQ H1B Indian
    @Passerby60


    Hindutva government which is oppressing Muslims in Kasmir-Jamma and Assam.
     
    ROTFLMAO. I got to give it to China. They run concentration camps for Uyghur muslims (ahem re-education camps), harvest organs of political opponents and then lecture democratic countries.

    But to be fair to you, you chose the right website for pushing your agenda. On this website 104 IQ Chinese are god-tier people who are beyond any reproach and 70 IQ Indians are worse than vermin. So go ahead with your sermon.

    @Daniel Chieh

    Nope. China takes up a lot of free real estate in the Indian pysche, but by and large, the Chinese really couldn’t be bothered to care to think about India, beyond the weirdness of a country that has just(as of 2018) completed providing electrical power to all of its population that continually thinks of itself as some sort of superpower.
     
    But somehow you are obsessed about proving how inferior India is compared to mighty middle kingdom :-)

    There is by and large, no real advantage to any serious effort against India. A few ultranationalists aside, the material gain is minimal. But in any actual conflict, the gap between military power is laughable.
     
    I am sure. But.....

    It is very well known that China runs a very large trade surplus with US. Do you know the country which is number 2 in list of countries that China has very large surplus?
    India. China runs a trade surplus of ~60 Billion annually. China would have probably made around half trillion in next 5-7 years but it won't happen now. There is a massive pressure on Govt to curb trade ties. What you think is jingoistic chest thumping nationalism is democratic pressure on the govt by the people.

    All of it could have been avoided if China did not try to unilaterally change the status quo on the border. If you think India initiated this then think again. India is consistently asking for pre-April 2020 status quo. China agreed to that at multiple levels and then refused to comply on the ground.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @Astuteobservor II, @AnonFromTN, @DB Cooper

    These kind of accusation only reflects the West and the Indians understanding of human nature given their historical experience but that doesn’t make it universally true. Football hooligism is a thing for the British, that doesn’t make it true for Indians (or even Americans). For your information so called ethnic oppression does not even existed in China. It is not even a thing, historically or contemporary. Chinese people doesn’t even have ethnic slurs for any of its ethnic minorities group, including the Uighurs or the Tibetans. And there are over fifties recognized ethnic minorities group in China. Calling people names is probably the cheapest way to denigrate a people and don’t you think before China went full blown on the concentration camps they would at least give the Uyghurs some ethnic slurs?

    Indians of course is a different animal. Ethnic oppression in India is not only a thing, the Indians institutionalized it to a system called the Caste and blessed it with a religion. This is one of the reasons why Indians are an inferior people with an inferior culture.

    • Disagree: Not Only Wrathful
    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    @DB Cooper


    It is not even a thing, historically or contemporary. Chinese people doesn’t even have ethnic slurs for any of its ethnic minorities group, including the Uighurs or the Tibetans.
     
    Sounds highly unlikely.

    Replies: @lin, @DB Cooper

  202. @82-IQ H1B Indian
    @Astuteobservor II

    Very briefly....

    Both India and China used to have very pathetic infra in the border region. Since 2000 China furiously built infra all over the border (to be fair they went on a massive infra spree all over their country and they did the same near LOC).
    That sent major alarm bells in New Delhi and India started building infra on its side of the border. This started around a decade ago. India is still catching up on border infra and will probably take another 4-5 years (it is extremely difficult to build in the 10-15 km altitude of Himalayas. There are several "world record" roads and tunnels were built there.

    This alarmed Chinese side. Although China dwarfs India economically and industrially, In the Himalayan theater, India has geographic/logistical advantages. This is the root cause of current conflict.

    3 years ago another confrontation happened in a tri-junction area. ( read this ==> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_China%E2%80%93India_border_standoff )

    It is also similar to what we are seeing now. China backed off in 2017. Lets see how it unfolds now.

    India is asking for status quo as of Apr 2020 to be restored. China agreed several times during flag meetings but did not move back on ground.

    Replies: @DB Cooper, @Astuteobservor II, @Showmethereal

    Status quo mean India should return to where they were at August 15, 1947. That means India should vacate Ladkda and South Tibet. India has no business in those area.

    • Replies: @82-IQ H1B Indian
    @DB Cooper

    China has no business in Tibet.

    Replies: @DB Cooper

  203. ivan says:
    June 18, 2020 at 4:36 am GMT • 200 Words   
    @A123
    @DB Cooper

    The scenario posed was for a Chinese incursion into India. Cross border roads are primitive bordering on non-existent. India can easily cut off tanker traffic through the Straits of Malacca. China would have massive logistics disadvantages everywhere trying to get resupply into Indian territory.

    Your point becomes more interesting if one considers a different scenario, India incursion into China. That would be closer to a logistical tie. China would still be hampered by lack of oil. However, India would have the hard ground transport logistics case of no rail and miserable road connectivity. This would lead to a different grinding stalemate, but the outcome would likely be fairly similar.
    ____

    Another downside to China's strategic position is any war over the Himalayas is one of "fighting seasons". There will be months each year when everything becomes almost impassable to organized military forces. At the same time India can block oil traffic through the Straits of Malacca for 12 months every year.

    Without multiple Supercarrier Task Forces, China cannot project sufficient force to prevent the Indian Navy from sinking or seizing China bound tankers as they try to pass from the Persian Gulf to the Westernmost portion of the Indian Ocean.

    Objectively looking at the balance of forces:
    -- The chances of India beating China are virtually nil.
    -- The odds of a China military victory over India are the same or slightly worse.

    Can anyone envision a "clean" win by China or India?
    ______

    If the geography was slightly different, China could offer to buy India's useless Dalit population in Punjab and Uttar Pradesh. Alas, that would cut off some more useful parts of India.

    There may be a finesse play there for China... If they can find something that India views as an impediment instead of valuable.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @ivan

    Well said. Neither side can deal a crushing blow onto the other. There are simply too many people. I have to add as an Indian that we know all about China’s “nibble and negotiate” trickery. For too long under Modi we have given in to everything the Chinese asked in the name of “good relations”: On Tibet, on Taiwan, on Hong Kong catering to their whims, and even pre-emptively kowtowing by firing a news anchor who merely referred to XI JinPing as “Eleven” Jinping. That moron Modi has a lot to answer for, but even for him all that has changed overnight. And incidentally Karlin is once again proving to be an unreliable guide with his “statistics” : China does not overwhelm India at all in the Himalayan region. The Himalayas are within walking range of the pilgrims, the Indians can put up 500,000 men strung along the border without batting an eyelid. And for the benefit of some fellows who don’t know geography the Tibetan Plateau is the watershed of India too. Two can play the game of “vital national interests” or even “lebensraum” when it comes to Tibet.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-29274792

  204. @AnonFromTN
    @82-IQ H1B Indian

    I am not a member of the IQ sect, but I have a question: if democracy is so much better than its absence, why is India so far behind China? In 1990 India was ahead in GDP by PPP per capita (~$1,200 vs less than $1,000 in China), but today India is at ~$6,700, while China stands at more than twice that, >$15,000 (https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.CD?locations=CN-IN-GB).

    There are no hungry people in China, whereas in India tens of millions are chronically hungry, millions of children are malnourished. Every person in China has a place to live, whereas in India a sizable fraction of the population has no roof over its head and lives in the street. I am not even mentioning defecation all over the place.

    I know only one big difference: Chinese are essentially irreligious, whereas the majority of Indians are Hindu with caste system. Could that be the factor no democracy can compensate for?

    Replies: @82-IQ H1B Indian, @lin, @Anatoly Karlin

    This is an excellent question!

    I cannot explain every single nuance in just one post but before I take it up, let me correct a few things you mentioned in your question.

    There are no hungry people in China, whereas in India tens of millions are chronically hungry, millions of children are malnourished. Every person in China has a place to live, whereas in India a sizable fraction of the population has no roof over its head and lives in the street. I am not even mentioning defecation all over the place.

    From 1947 to mid 1990’s China had more people in absolute poverty compared to India. India inherited the crown of ignominy in late nineties and passed it to Nigeria 3 years ago. Right now Nigeria has more people in absolute poverty compared to India. India currently has less than 50 million poor people. India has already lifted 250 million people out of poverty in just last 10 years. In next 5 years absolute poverty will be eliminated. Tackling relative poverty and mal-nutrition will come next. Only China did better than India in eliminating poverty.

    Regarding open defecation – Google Swachh Bharat Abiyaan. In 2014 only 38% of rural India had indoor toilets. It rose to 100% by Oct 2019. Even the critics admit that coverage is well over 90% now.

    Similarly there is a near universal banking account & health insurance for 500 million people (both of these took less than 3 years to cover the entire population BTW). 100% electric connections is done & current target is 100% piped water supply by 2022)

    So why did these happen in 5 years after 2014 and not in 60 years before 2014?

    Simple. India had “European” Prime Ministers from 1947 to 2014 and “Asian” Prime Minister from 2014 till date. The current PM of India is similar to Lee Kuan Yew/ Deng Xiaoping/ Park Chung-hee. He studied why Asian nations progressed and India did not and implementing what should have been done 40 years ago. He is not much into intellectualizing things. He is more of an engineer type (what is the problem & how to fix it). India’s problems have nothing to do with caste system.

    When India became independent in 1947, it went with extremely idealistic constitution and social policies. With a 90% poverty and illiteracy rate, it went with universal franchise democracy. It may fail in implementation but on statue books the laws would fit nicely to a rich Scandinavian nation 🙂 Women and lower castes were given right to vote on day 1. Backward castes were given reservations in jobs and education from day 1. It did hurt meritocracy but it was seen that social justice was more important than efficiency.

    Similarly because India was colonized by East India company, the first prime minister disdained private companies. He publicly said that he considered “profit” as a bad word. In his view only govt can save poor from rapacious private enterprise. So systematically Indian private enterprise was destroyed. The public sector with its legendary inefficiency and corruption (monopoly!) neither generated wealth nor efficiency. Before reforms in 1991, Indian govt companies made bread and ran hotels (and everything in between)!!

    He was terrified on Military coup as well just like other third world nations. So, British Indian Army which was the best armed forces in all of Asia was systematically weakened by making it subservient to bureaucracy & promoting “loyal” people. But it didn’t last long. 1962 defeat jolted him and since then Indian Armed forces are left mostly to professional soldiers (of course under layers of bureaucratic control)

    All of it came crashing down in 1991 economic crisis. That forced India to dismantle “licence raj” and allow private and foreign companies to do business in India.

    But as I mentioned earlier, the path to hell is paved with good intentions. India wanted to protect vulnerable farmers hence created a nightmare laws that will not let him die but also will not let him prosper (land ceiling act/ APMC/ Minimum support price, Not allowing agri land to change for industrial purposes etc).

    Similarly the playing field is massively rigged in favor of labor (to protect him from exploitative private enterprise you see?) This meant that while other asian countries became export powerhouses we go around bragging how we did not let poor exploited by companies. Changing them against labor will have electoral consequences 🙂

    There are tonnes of more issues that I may have skipped but bottom line is that after first prime minister, the current PM of India has the most powerful mandate from the people of India. He is not a capitalist of the Anglo-saxon school. Instead just like post war Germany, Japan, Taiwan, South Korea, Singapore he is mostly in favor of Ordoliberalism ==> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordoliberalism

    Whether India will successfully Industrialize or not will be decided in future (On this forum people are already dead sure that India will never become industrial economy since they have sub-human IQ 🙂 But when we see North Korea vs South Korea, clearly economic policies do matter)

    • Replies: @DB Cooper
    @82-IQ H1B Indian

    Economis policies of course matters, but so is human capital. Look at the IMO result of North Korea. A country of 25 million totally beat a billion Indians by a mile . Its not even in the same league.

    https://www.imo-official.org/results.aspx

    , @Tor597
    @82-IQ H1B Indian

    Blah blah blah.

    India has an IQ of 82. There is smart fraction, but not enough smarts to overcome the majority of low iq Indians.

    Replies: @LOLknee

    , @Meena
    @82-IQ H1B Indian

    Fudging the data is a big business in India at very level. This government is worse .
    1 Shanties and slums of India ( they at least have a permanent home compared to

    2 Scattered homeless in cities numbering millions in Calcutta Delhi Bombay Chennai ?
    3 Toilet in the slums are about 1 for every 100 persons

    4 Toilets in villages number about 1 toilet per 10 people
    5 People still defecate openly in villages and in Cities !

    6 The worst kind of hygienic practices one can see is around the temple of Calcutta Bihar and Northern States .

    7Poverty reduction is joke . More people have joined the poverty after 1990 than before as a percentage
    More people have seen poverty since 2000

    8 During Pandemic , millions of migrants have gone hungry ,thousands have died from lack of basic amenities including food

    9 Government jobs have evaporated and private jobs have become scare

    10 Indian Dalit, untouchable and Tribal constitue majority Poverty level among them run in 90 % or more .

    11 Media now fully under Modi’s control fudge the numbers on any thing that the Government wants it to do.
    11 India’s child and women mortality are worse than neighboring Sri Lanka Bangladesh and Pakistan
    12 Violence against women are rampant in northern states where the cow belt sits.
    13 Indian basic education lags behind Bangladesh and Sri Lanka .

    , @Not Only Wrathful
    @82-IQ H1B Indian

    Yes, previous Indian leaders didn't accept India for how she was. Their inability to admit their shame at the widespread poverty precluded them. Modi has no such problems and, unsurprisingly, poverty is melting away.

    , @AnonFromTN
    @82-IQ H1B Indian

    While what you wrote makes sense and appears to be factually correct, it does not explain the facts on the ground. You imply that Indian system had serious flaws from 1947 on, but in 1990, more than 40 years after independence, India was ahead of China. Yet now it’s way behind.

    You also admit that in the last 30 years China elevated more people out of poverty than India. There must be a reason for that.

    Speaking of democracy, universal suffrage when the majority is illiterate and hungry is not democracy, it’s a travesty: form without substance. It’s perfect for corruption, and nothing else.

    I don’t have statistically valid sampling, but based on qualities of Indians and Chinese I interacted with I am sure that IQ has nothing to do with it. Not to mention that IQ test was invented to separate normal people from retards, and that’s the only thing it is good for. I had two Hindu Indian post-docs (and one Indian Muslim, but I wouldn’t count him in). One was dumb, the other moderately intelligent. I collaborated with one Indian post-doc when I was a post-doc, and both she and her husband were fairly smart. I taught two Indian grad students, was on the thesis committee of one of them. Both were intelligent (BTW, one eventually married a Chinese guy). I had four Chinese post-docs, two intelligent, one limited, and one dumb. I also had a very smart Chinese grad student. So, on average (even though averages are uninformative, like an average fever level in a hospital), I see no difference. Cannot blame culture, either – the only common thing in India is Hindu religion, there are many nations, languages, even alphabets in India. So, there must be something in the organization of Indian and Chinese state that explains this difference. And that something gives China an advantage.

    Replies: @LOLknee

    , @songbird
    @82-IQ H1B Indian

    I have heard that at one time, you had to get a stamped permit in order to drink a beer in India - such was the bureaucracy.

    I shall tell you my theory about lack of toilets in India: after the British left, there were a lot of nefarious activities going on in such public restrooms as existed. A lot of male prostitution. A lot of black market deals. So, they developed a bad reputation, and wealthier Indians weren't as willing to fund toilet initiatives as a charitable endeavor, as had been the case in the US, decades before.

    Replies: @Meena, @Meena, @Meena

    , @Philip Owen
    @82-IQ H1B Indian

    I agree. The socialist ideas of Congress and the London School of Economics that educated its upper echelons (and many elites in Africa too) held India back. I list Nehru in my list of failures of socialism. To be fair he did not kill millions but he failed to make them prosper.

    Replies: @china-russia-all-the-way

    , @Escher
    @82-IQ H1B Indian


    Regarding open defecation – Google Swachh Bharat Abiyaan. In 2014 only 38% of rural India had indoor toilets. It rose to 100% by Oct 2019. Even the critics admit that coverage is well over 90% now.
     
    There’s plenty of reports online that a large percentage of these toilets don’t work.
    Also I wouldn’t trust the statistics published by the Indian government, whether its poverty reduction or toilet construction.
    The level of unemployment in India is very high, with most people working in the informal sector, for poor pay and no benefits.

    Replies: @lin

  205. Daemon says:
    June 18, 2020 at 4:43 am GMT • 100 Words   
    @A123
    @Escher


    Do you see Apple, Black & Decker, etc returning manufacturing and assembly stateside?
     
    hi ho Silver!

    Grab a SJW Globalist firm by the balls and squeeze (yes they are tiny and hard to find).

    If there are $300+ in tariffs per imported iPhone. Apple will have no choice but to manufacture in the U.S. ... Or, go bankrupt.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @Daemon

    Looks like being a Jew doesnt offset the IQ loss from being a boomercon.

    You do realize manufacturing in the USA using American “labor”, American (((Regulations))) and American (((Taxes))) would easily push the finished product to somewhere north of $3000 right?

    You would need to tarrif the chinese not just 30%, but 300% to get any manufacturer to budge. At which point, they’d simply flip you the bird and leave.

    • Replies: @Not Only Wrathful
    @Daemon

    Manufacturing in the United States is higher than its ever been and is far higher than it was 30 years ago; so it would seem unlikely that making iPhones in the US would be difficult.

    Replies: @A123, @Daemon, @Blinky Bill, @showmethereal

  206. @DB Cooper
    @82-IQ H1B Indian

    Status quo mean India should return to where they were at August 15, 1947. That means India should vacate Ladkda and South Tibet. India has no business in those area.

    Replies: @82-IQ H1B Indian

    China has no business in Tibet.

    • Replies: @DB Cooper
    @82-IQ H1B Indian

    "China has no business in Tibet."

    Tibetans in China definitely don't agree. I am sure you think I am lying and that is because you have been reading msm nonsense for years and this is why people are flocking to unz.com

    But ocasionally there are upright academics reported what they found without any ideological predisposition. Listen to this podcast:

    http://mpegmedia.abc.net.au/rn/podcast/2013/10/bia_20131016.mp3

    China is really a very different culture compare to the West and India and so a lot of assumptions and things taken for granted in the West or India does not applied to China and this includes the altitudes towards ethnic minorities.

  207. Rahan says:
    June 18, 2020 at 4:53 am GMT • 200 Words   

    Oh, even without any shit kicking happening to India, and without any refugees, the US and UK have already signed up waves of Indians to be imported, it’s already a done deal, that’s part of the alliance thing.

    And the tragedy, or farce, of the situation is, that the 10 years from now, once the last competent whites retire and only hysterics, drug addicts, thugs, and mulattoes are left in charge of the US, the imported Indians really WILL be the only more or less competent demographic that holds everything together, albeit at a 2nd world level.

    The currently existing yellow demographic will be able to maintain small chunks of 1st world, the Indians will maintain the 2nd world chunks, and everything else will be Minneapolis today.

    Unless right now this very minute new structures are created and enforced, which 10 years from now will start producing the first wave of competent 20 and 30 year old heritage Americans. Unless this happens everything will hang on the goodwill and basic abilities of Indians and Koreans etc.

    • Replies: @Tor597
    @Rahan

    lol

    Now we see the true nature of the Indian diaspora. You really think a bunch of Indians can run America and rule it?

    How crazy and delusional are you?

    No matter how bad Minnesota gets, it will still be infinitely better than India.

    , @anonymous coward
    @Rahan


    The currently existing yellow demographic will be able to maintain small chunks of 1st world, the Indians will maintain the 2nd world chunks, and everything else will be Minneapolis today.
     
    The 'three worlds' are not tiers of awesomeness. '1st world' meant capitalist countries lead by the USA, '2nd world' meant socialist countries lead by the USSR, and '3rd world' meant whatever kind of system China was at the time.

    The 'three worlds' are so named because they corresponded to the three sides in the conflict known as the 'Cold War'.

    (And yes, China and USSR used to be enemies and even fought wars, a fact that has been since thoroughly memoryholed.)
  208. d dan says:
    June 18, 2020 at 5:05 am GMT • 100 Words   
    @Daniel Chieh
    @d dan

    I think recent research has found that ants are actually among the most intelligent insects, even individually.

    https://time.com/118633/ant-intelligence-google/

    Replies: @d dan, @Anatoly Karlin

    “I think recent research has found that ants are actually among the most intelligent insects, even individually.”

    So, do you think ants might be more intelligent than the trolls here, like some who thinks US can impose tariffs to achieve manufacturing greatness, or others who thinks India can win a war against China through its democracy?

    China does not want troubles nor even attention, just quietness in the border, and yet the anti-China forces never rest. Sad: 树欲静而风不息

  209. lin says:
    June 18, 2020 at 5:09 am GMT • 300 Words   
    @82-IQ H1B Indian
    @Philip Owen

    Philip,

    Shhh....

    There is a near unanimous conclusion on this thread that China will beat the living day lights out of India with out breaking a sweat. Since this is a 104 IQ China vs 70 IQ India, IQ worshiping Unzites are rooting for Chinese organ harvesters against dirty Indians :-)

    Of course India has around 13.5 Divisions facing China along LAC
    (XIV corps - 2 divisions and 1 armored brigade = 25,000 +25,000 + 4000 = 54,000 Men
    IX Corps - 25,000 men
    1 reserve division 25,000 men
    XXXIII corps - 3 divisions and 1 art brigade = 25,000 * 3 + 4000 = 79,000 men
    IV corps - 3 Div =75,000 Men
    III corps - 3 Div =75,000 Men
    XVII corps - 1.5 Division = 40,000 Men
    Total army men tasked with China = 290,000 Men
    )

    On Chinese side they have 76th and 77th group army (~150,000 men) and 3 Brigades (~18-20K) BTW only these 3 brigades are any where closer to Indian border. All others are few hundreds kilometre away.

    If they have to bring more men into the theater, they need at least 15 days (very optimistically) to acclimatize in the insane heights of Himalayas. But hey they are super humans. They don't need any acclimatization or logistical support. They can drive their SUV's directly into India.

    Except a very few places, terrain is not suitable for any mechanized warfare. But that restriction applies only to inferior IQ people. Geographical constraints do not apply to Chinese supermen.

    When it comes to Airforce, things like lack of facilities in Tibet, very few air to air refuelers etc do not matter. Of course Chinese are superior. Silly things ability to operate at max 288 modern airplanes or constraints like lifting only half the payload when taking off from Tibet are irrelevant.

    Since Indians are 70 IQ inferior people, they are not going to disrupt G-19 highway parallel to the LAC, through which ALL Chinese supplies have to pass. Similarly the bridges on the crucial logistical arteries like Lhasa-G219 route or Hotan-G219 route will not be taken out by India because of their inferior IQ.

    Did I mention about happy Tibetians who would never sabotage Chinese logistical tails?

    India stands no chance.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @lin

    they need at least 15 days (very optimistically) to acclimatize in the insane heights of Himalayas

    The area of recent conflict is about 5100 m ASL and I had been to Eastern china (18 yrs ago, inside a car on the hi-way)at 4300 m ASL(GSP confirmed) and I don’t think it’ll take at least 15 days for Chinese grunts to adapt.
    **High altitude airfields in Tibet means the planes can’t take off with heavy loads but air-defense is quite sufficient.
    **Bear in mind, the indian army has the following problems:
    1)Low weapons spendings as % of budget, high manpower spendings. Indian army at 1.4 millions is the biggest army in the world and that of china at less than 1 million is the 3rd.
    2)Probably low weapon stockpiles.
    **The Chinese army has recruiting problem;Young Chinese school leavers want to go to college. Chinese army recruiters now focus on college grads. Drones and robots are being emphasized.
    **According to Swedish SIPRI, India and china respectively spend 2.5% and 1.9% of GDP on their military. The Indians will make a new version of Russian AK-47 I read.
    **Tibet is thinly propulated but some indian states just south of Himalays are very heavily populated. I checked that Bihar and Uttar Pradesh have a combined population of 369 millions(> than US total) in 2020. The most developed parts of china is 1000s of km from indian border.
    **I’ve no data on the new china Rocket Force(a separate branch of the Chinese military)but certainly Chinese industry can mass produce short range guided missiles which put all the northern indian military installations within range.
    ………
    Certainly it will be nightmare to Chinese leaders if 100s of 1000s of indian soldiers march towards the border

  210. @last straw
    @A123


    This reinforces my point about China’s strategic weakness as a predatory goods exporter. Any nation can penalize China’s vulnerable export trade surplus at any time.

    The EU is also joining India and the U.S. (2)
     
    Did you even read your own link? From the Politico article:

    The EU is seriously upping the ante in its drive to tackle unfair competition from China, the U.S. and other foreign players in the single market.

    Nations have no friends, only interests.

    Replies: @Astuteobservor II, @A123

    I think the omission is on purpose so the Zionist troll can build his case.

    His job is to constantly to spout non sense to bury the comments sections.

    It is why you all should ignore the troll, don’t feed it.

    • LOL: A123
    • Replies: @A123
    @Astuteobservor II


    I think the omission is on purpose so the Zionist troll can build his case.
     
    ObliviousObserver the Troll,

    The topic of the thread is India-China.

    Limiting the discussion to issues about China that will be exacerbated if China is seen as aggressive is called staying on-topic. When asked about the specific point I tried to provide the shortest possible clarification that will not drag the conversation off-topic.

    His job is to constantly to spout non sense to bury the comments sections.
     
    No. That is Troll Chieh's job. And, apparently yours.

    It is why you all should ignore the troll, don’t feed it.
     
    Occasionally one has to respond to TROLLS to warn other readers about the trolling.

    Fortunately everyone now knows that you and Troll Chieh are TROLLS. Your allegiance to Iranian pay masters was fairly obvious as soon as you opened your mouth.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh

  211. It is really weird how the Chinese anons focused on the points brought up by trollish and opposing anons so readily.

    You guys need to up your game.

    Why the focus on ants? Just because some retarded anon brought it up?

    Lesson 1, don’t argue against retarded made up on the spot points. Learn to spot those retarded points. Don’t get led by the nose because of those retarded made up points.

    Lesson 2, don’t always defend. In English, the defending side always insinuates having done something wrong, hence why you are defending yourself. Learn to attack.

    Lesson 3, if you know some anons are known trolls, don’t feed them. Calling them out is enough.

    That is all I have for now. Hope this helps you guys a bit.

    • Replies: @utu
    @Astuteobservor II

    "You guys need to up your game." - You can't help them. They are rigid. Years of totalitarian conditioning. Butt-hurt chauvinism. They are no match for '82-IQ H1B Indian'.

    I looked at some papers from India and was nicely surprised and relieved by their common sense and maturity how they wrote about the incident.

    , @Daniel Chieh
    @Astuteobservor II

    Whether some people are trolls or not, I believe, is quite beside the point. Trolls can be useful as springboard to provide information, which I think is the main purpose of Unz. Its not really like the "pointmaking" here has any significant value.

    Insofar as ants go, I've always liked them(they're the only other creature that practice agriculture, for one). Swarm intelligence is also a potential vector for general AI to manifest, so in general I find them fascinating.

    At the end of the day, arguing on the Internet is mostly an indulgence:

    https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png

    Replies: @Astuteobservor II

  212. @82-IQ H1B Indian
    @Astuteobservor II

    Very briefly....

    Both India and China used to have very pathetic infra in the border region. Since 2000 China furiously built infra all over the border (to be fair they went on a massive infra spree all over their country and they did the same near LOC).
    That sent major alarm bells in New Delhi and India started building infra on its side of the border. This started around a decade ago. India is still catching up on border infra and will probably take another 4-5 years (it is extremely difficult to build in the 10-15 km altitude of Himalayas. There are several "world record" roads and tunnels were built there.

    This alarmed Chinese side. Although China dwarfs India economically and industrially, In the Himalayan theater, India has geographic/logistical advantages. This is the root cause of current conflict.

    3 years ago another confrontation happened in a tri-junction area. ( read this ==> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_China%E2%80%93India_border_standoff )

    It is also similar to what we are seeing now. China backed off in 2017. Lets see how it unfolds now.

    India is asking for status quo as of Apr 2020 to be restored. China agreed several times during flag meetings but did not move back on ground.

    Replies: @DB Cooper, @Astuteobservor II, @Showmethereal

    That makes no sense. As the Chinese side has way more infrastructure. That goes against your narrative that China started this.

    • Agree: Showmethereal
  213. DB Cooper says:
    June 18, 2020 at 5:42 am GMT • 100 Words   
    @82-IQ H1B Indian
    @DB Cooper

    China has no business in Tibet.

    Replies: @DB Cooper

    “China has no business in Tibet.”

    Tibetans in China definitely don’t agree. I am sure you think I am lying and that is because you have been reading msm nonsense for years and this is why people are flocking to unz.com

    But ocasionally there are upright academics reported what they found without any ideological predisposition. Listen to this podcast:

    China is really a very different culture compare to the West and India and so a lot of assumptions and things taken for granted in the West or India does not applied to China and this includes the altitudes towards ethnic minorities.

  214. utu says:
    June 18, 2020 at 6:01 am GMT • 100 Words   
    @Astuteobservor II
    It is really weird how the Chinese anons focused on the points brought up by trollish and opposing anons so readily.

    You guys need to up your game.

    Why the focus on ants? Just because some retarded anon brought it up?

    Lesson 1, don't argue against retarded made up on the spot points. Learn to spot those retarded points. Don't get led by the nose because of those retarded made up points.

    Lesson 2, don't always defend. In English, the defending side always insinuates having done something wrong, hence why you are defending yourself. Learn to attack.

    Lesson 3, if you know some anons are known trolls, don't feed them. Calling them out is enough.

    That is all I have for now. Hope this helps you guys a bit.

    Replies: @utu, @Daniel Chieh

    “You guys need to up your game.” – You can’t help them. They are rigid. Years of totalitarian conditioning. Butt-hurt chauvinism. They are no match for ’82-IQ H1B Indian’.

    I looked at some papers from India and was nicely surprised and relieved by their common sense and maturity how they wrote about the incident.

  215. @82-IQ H1B Indian
    @AnonFromTN

    This is an excellent question!

    I cannot explain every single nuance in just one post but before I take it up, let me correct a few things you mentioned in your question.


    There are no hungry people in China, whereas in India tens of millions are chronically hungry, millions of children are malnourished. Every person in China has a place to live, whereas in India a sizable fraction of the population has no roof over its head and lives in the street. I am not even mentioning defecation all over the place.
     
    From 1947 to mid 1990's China had more people in absolute poverty compared to India. India inherited the crown of ignominy in late nineties and passed it to Nigeria 3 years ago. Right now Nigeria has more people in absolute poverty compared to India. India currently has less than 50 million poor people. India has already lifted 250 million people out of poverty in just last 10 years. In next 5 years absolute poverty will be eliminated. Tackling relative poverty and mal-nutrition will come next. Only China did better than India in eliminating poverty.

    Regarding open defecation - Google Swachh Bharat Abiyaan. In 2014 only 38% of rural India had indoor toilets. It rose to 100% by Oct 2019. Even the critics admit that coverage is well over 90% now.

    Similarly there is a near universal banking account & health insurance for 500 million people (both of these took less than 3 years to cover the entire population BTW). 100% electric connections is done & current target is 100% piped water supply by 2022)

    So why did these happen in 5 years after 2014 and not in 60 years before 2014?

    Simple. India had "European" Prime Ministers from 1947 to 2014 and "Asian" Prime Minister from 2014 till date. The current PM of India is similar to Lee Kuan Yew/ Deng Xiaoping/ Park Chung-hee. He studied why Asian nations progressed and India did not and implementing what should have been done 40 years ago. He is not much into intellectualizing things. He is more of an engineer type (what is the problem & how to fix it). India's problems have nothing to do with caste system.

    When India became independent in 1947, it went with extremely idealistic constitution and social policies. With a 90% poverty and illiteracy rate, it went with universal franchise democracy. It may fail in implementation but on statue books the laws would fit nicely to a rich Scandinavian nation :-) Women and lower castes were given right to vote on day 1. Backward castes were given reservations in jobs and education from day 1. It did hurt meritocracy but it was seen that social justice was more important than efficiency.

    Similarly because India was colonized by East India company, the first prime minister disdained private companies. He publicly said that he considered "profit" as a bad word. In his view only govt can save poor from rapacious private enterprise. So systematically Indian private enterprise was destroyed. The public sector with its legendary inefficiency and corruption (monopoly!) neither generated wealth nor efficiency. Before reforms in 1991, Indian govt companies made bread and ran hotels (and everything in between)!!

    He was terrified on Military coup as well just like other third world nations. So, British Indian Army which was the best armed forces in all of Asia was systematically weakened by making it subservient to bureaucracy & promoting "loyal" people. But it didn't last long. 1962 defeat jolted him and since then Indian Armed forces are left mostly to professional soldiers (of course under layers of bureaucratic control)

    All of it came crashing down in 1991 economic crisis. That forced India to dismantle "licence raj" and allow private and foreign companies to do business in India.

    But as I mentioned earlier, the path to hell is paved with good intentions. India wanted to protect vulnerable farmers hence created a nightmare laws that will not let him die but also will not let him prosper (land ceiling act/ APMC/ Minimum support price, Not allowing agri land to change for industrial purposes etc).

    Similarly the playing field is massively rigged in favor of labor (to protect him from exploitative private enterprise you see?) This meant that while other asian countries became export powerhouses we go around bragging how we did not let poor exploited by companies. Changing them against labor will have electoral consequences :-)

    There are tonnes of more issues that I may have skipped but bottom line is that after first prime minister, the current PM of India has the most powerful mandate from the people of India. He is not a capitalist of the Anglo-saxon school. Instead just like post war Germany, Japan, Taiwan, South Korea, Singapore he is mostly in favor of Ordoliberalism ==> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordoliberalism

    Whether India will successfully Industrialize or not will be decided in future (On this forum people are already dead sure that India will never become industrial economy since they have sub-human IQ :-) But when we see North Korea vs South Korea, clearly economic policies do matter)

    Replies: @DB Cooper, @Tor597, @Meena, @Not Only Wrathful, @AnonFromTN, @songbird, @Philip Owen, @Escher

    Economis policies of course matters, but so is human capital. Look at the IMO result of North Korea. A country of 25 million totally beat a billion Indians by a mile . Its not even in the same league.

    https://www.imo-official.org/results.aspx

  216. @Astuteobservor II
    It is really weird how the Chinese anons focused on the points brought up by trollish and opposing anons so readily.

    You guys need to up your game.

    Why the focus on ants? Just because some retarded anon brought it up?

    Lesson 1, don't argue against retarded made up on the spot points. Learn to spot those retarded points. Don't get led by the nose because of those retarded made up points.

    Lesson 2, don't always defend. In English, the defending side always insinuates having done something wrong, hence why you are defending yourself. Learn to attack.

    Lesson 3, if you know some anons are known trolls, don't feed them. Calling them out is enough.

    That is all I have for now. Hope this helps you guys a bit.

    Replies: @utu, @Daniel Chieh

    Whether some people are trolls or not, I believe, is quite beside the point. Trolls can be useful as springboard to provide information, which I think is the main purpose of Unz. Its not really like the “pointmaking” here has any significant value.

    Insofar as ants go, I’ve always liked them(they’re the only other creature that practice agriculture, for one). Swarm intelligence is also a potential vector for general AI to manifest, so in general I find them fascinating.

    At the end of the day, arguing on the Internet is mostly an indulgence:

    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
    @Daniel Chieh

    No, at this point, internet arguments are what is shaping the narrative. It is why Reddit got the kiss of death from the 3 letter agencies. It is why 4chan got taken over.

    As a Chinese, you really don't want to make it China vs the world.

    Time to learn propaganda.

    Like the comment H1b mentioned about freeing Tibet. If we go back that far, India would not exist, need to be a colony again, be slaves again, USA would not exist either. Yet, Cooper concedes the point so easily.

    I can never understand that.

  217. nebulafox says:
    June 18, 2020 at 6:32 am GMT • 400 Words   
    @songbird
    @nebulafox


    The President added, “Now, Goddamnit, they’ve got to know this...Goddamnit, who’s giving them a billion dollars a year? Shit, the Russians aren’t giving them a billion dollars a year, Henry.”

     

    The Nixon tapes are pretty entertaining. Someday, I'd like to hear the one where he calls Indira "an old witch."
    It is a crying shame that they pulled the tape machine from the Oval Office. (and too bad there are no known tapes of Indira or Mao talking - though I think Mao was bugged, so maybe)

    In many ways, Nixon was flawed, but I think it unlikely that the US will ever have a president as intelligent going forward. Not in its decline.

    Replies: @nebulafox

    There’s no question that Nixon’s personal dislike of Gandhi-which stemmed from a variety of factors, one being her hypocrisy on Vietnam-colored his perceptions of that part of the world, but as the tapes show, Anderson was inaccurate in describing that as the main motivator of policy. Nixon and Kissinger distorted a regional conflict into a Cold War theater, contra their memoirs, but they were hardly the first or last Cold War-era leaders to make that mistake, and their acted logically and rationally in terms of policy within the confines of that mistake.

    This is the case for a lot of Nixon-related stuff: it’s certainly true that he didn’t like black people or hippies, but to ascribe him setting up an entire federal department because of that is just stupid. It moreover overlooks the fact that Ehrlichman dedicated more than half the allocated money to treatment and rehab. The War on Drugs only really took on its modern recognizable form in the 1980s, under Reagan, and by that point, crack cocaine had changed the situation beyond recognition.

    >In many ways, Nixon was flawed, but I think it unlikely that the US will ever have a president as intelligent going forward.

    “Life lessons from Richard Nixon” is a strange moniker, but here’s an interesting lesson: Nixon kept a small, hidden room in the EOB where he could go to think without any interruptions. No phone calls, no meetings, etc. There he’d take out his pen and yellow pads, and scribble down whatever ideas came to him on major strategic goals on policy or political tactics. The papers often reveal Nixon at his best, just as the tapes often reveal him at his worst, for a couple of reasons: he wasn’t playing an artificial “role” when he was alone, and he was less misanthropic when not forced to interact with people.

    It’s paradoxical, but I can relate to that. If you are introverted, this time is not just great for recharging, but planning things out without any overstimulation or surprises. Thinking things through on your own without that pressure will help you respond authentically/honestly when the time comes to respond to others. I think in an age of phones and computers and 24/7 information bombardment, it’s all the more important to take some uninterrupted time to think and reflect without artificial distractions.

    • Agree: songbird
  218. lin says:
    June 18, 2020 at 6:37 am GMT • 200 Words   
    @AnonFromTN
    @82-IQ H1B Indian

    I am not a member of the IQ sect, but I have a question: if democracy is so much better than its absence, why is India so far behind China? In 1990 India was ahead in GDP by PPP per capita (~$1,200 vs less than $1,000 in China), but today India is at ~$6,700, while China stands at more than twice that, >$15,000 (https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.CD?locations=CN-IN-GB).

    There are no hungry people in China, whereas in India tens of millions are chronically hungry, millions of children are malnourished. Every person in China has a place to live, whereas in India a sizable fraction of the population has no roof over its head and lives in the street. I am not even mentioning defecation all over the place.

    I know only one big difference: Chinese are essentially irreligious, whereas the majority of Indians are Hindu with caste system. Could that be the factor no democracy can compensate for?

    Replies: @82-IQ H1B Indian, @lin, @Anatoly Karlin

    In 1990 India was ahead in GDP by PPP per capita (~$1,200 vs less than $1,000 in China), but today India is at ~$6,700, while China stands at more than twice that, >$15,000

    Nominal GDP in US$ sure isn’t too accurate but PPP GDP is even more so (but there’re exception, Russia is a very good example. I was told by a friend who had been to St Petersberg that the ticket to a Swan Lake ballet performance at Mariinsky theatre could be as low as US$30-40, only a fraction of comparable performance elsewhere) because PPP GDP ignores consumption pattern. I definitely would not compare the consumer experience of an average hair cut in new Delhi to that of the average haircut in US.
    …………….
    The poorer the country, the bigger % of income spent on food; and but it so happened that rich countries usually have lower grain production cost mostly due to better tech and mechanisation(developing Brazil and developed Japan are the exceptions). Chinese food grain production/capita in 1978 was over 300 kg while that of india in 2015 was 200 kg.
    The gap between Chinese and indian living standard in 2020 definitely exceeds 15000 to 5700.
    Nominal GDP sure isn’t perfect but it’s better than PPP GDP
    Air-conditioning penetration 2016 by country(India is in a hotter climate zone than both US and china) https://www.statista.com/statistics/911064/worldwide-air-conditioning-penetration-rate-country/

  219. @82-IQ H1B Indian
    @AnonFromTN

    This is an excellent question!

    I cannot explain every single nuance in just one post but before I take it up, let me correct a few things you mentioned in your question.


    There are no hungry people in China, whereas in India tens of millions are chronically hungry, millions of children are malnourished. Every person in China has a place to live, whereas in India a sizable fraction of the population has no roof over its head and lives in the street. I am not even mentioning defecation all over the place.
     
    From 1947 to mid 1990's China had more people in absolute poverty compared to India. India inherited the crown of ignominy in late nineties and passed it to Nigeria 3 years ago. Right now Nigeria has more people in absolute poverty compared to India. India currently has less than 50 million poor people. India has already lifted 250 million people out of poverty in just last 10 years. In next 5 years absolute poverty will be eliminated. Tackling relative poverty and mal-nutrition will come next. Only China did better than India in eliminating poverty.

    Regarding open defecation - Google Swachh Bharat Abiyaan. In 2014 only 38% of rural India had indoor toilets. It rose to 100% by Oct 2019. Even the critics admit that coverage is well over 90% now.

    Similarly there is a near universal banking account & health insurance for 500 million people (both of these took less than 3 years to cover the entire population BTW). 100% electric connections is done & current target is 100% piped water supply by 2022)

    So why did these happen in 5 years after 2014 and not in 60 years before 2014?

    Simple. India had "European" Prime Ministers from 1947 to 2014 and "Asian" Prime Minister from 2014 till date. The current PM of India is similar to Lee Kuan Yew/ Deng Xiaoping/ Park Chung-hee. He studied why Asian nations progressed and India did not and implementing what should have been done 40 years ago. He is not much into intellectualizing things. He is more of an engineer type (what is the problem & how to fix it). India's problems have nothing to do with caste system.

    When India became independent in 1947, it went with extremely idealistic constitution and social policies. With a 90% poverty and illiteracy rate, it went with universal franchise democracy. It may fail in implementation but on statue books the laws would fit nicely to a rich Scandinavian nation :-) Women and lower castes were given right to vote on day 1. Backward castes were given reservations in jobs and education from day 1. It did hurt meritocracy but it was seen that social justice was more important than efficiency.

    Similarly because India was colonized by East India company, the first prime minister disdained private companies. He publicly said that he considered "profit" as a bad word. In his view only govt can save poor from rapacious private enterprise. So systematically Indian private enterprise was destroyed. The public sector with its legendary inefficiency and corruption (monopoly!) neither generated wealth nor efficiency. Before reforms in 1991, Indian govt companies made bread and ran hotels (and everything in between)!!

    He was terrified on Military coup as well just like other third world nations. So, British Indian Army which was the best armed forces in all of Asia was systematically weakened by making it subservient to bureaucracy & promoting "loyal" people. But it didn't last long. 1962 defeat jolted him and since then Indian Armed forces are left mostly to professional soldiers (of course under layers of bureaucratic control)

    All of it came crashing down in 1991 economic crisis. That forced India to dismantle "licence raj" and allow private and foreign companies to do business in India.

    But as I mentioned earlier, the path to hell is paved with good intentions. India wanted to protect vulnerable farmers hence created a nightmare laws that will not let him die but also will not let him prosper (land ceiling act/ APMC/ Minimum support price, Not allowing agri land to change for industrial purposes etc).

    Similarly the playing field is massively rigged in favor of labor (to protect him from exploitative private enterprise you see?) This meant that while other asian countries became export powerhouses we go around bragging how we did not let poor exploited by companies. Changing them against labor will have electoral consequences :-)

    There are tonnes of more issues that I may have skipped but bottom line is that after first prime minister, the current PM of India has the most powerful mandate from the people of India. He is not a capitalist of the Anglo-saxon school. Instead just like post war Germany, Japan, Taiwan, South Korea, Singapore he is mostly in favor of Ordoliberalism ==> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordoliberalism

    Whether India will successfully Industrialize or not will be decided in future (On this forum people are already dead sure that India will never become industrial economy since they have sub-human IQ :-) But when we see North Korea vs South Korea, clearly economic policies do matter)

    Replies: @DB Cooper, @Tor597, @Meena, @Not Only Wrathful, @AnonFromTN, @songbird, @Philip Owen, @Escher

    Blah blah blah.

    India has an IQ of 82. There is smart fraction, but not enough smarts to overcome the majority of low iq Indians.

    • Replies: @LOLknee
    @Tor597

    Richard Lynn's numbers are fraudulent. David Becker's are no better. You can keep spouting these numbers if they make you feel better, but a lie is a lie.

    Where's the innovation coming out of supposedly "high-IQ" Poland and Hungary? Where are the Slavic tigers?

    Replies: @Tor597

  220. @Daniel Chieh
    @Astuteobservor II

    Whether some people are trolls or not, I believe, is quite beside the point. Trolls can be useful as springboard to provide information, which I think is the main purpose of Unz. Its not really like the "pointmaking" here has any significant value.

    Insofar as ants go, I've always liked them(they're the only other creature that practice agriculture, for one). Swarm intelligence is also a potential vector for general AI to manifest, so in general I find them fascinating.

    At the end of the day, arguing on the Internet is mostly an indulgence:

    https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png

    Replies: @Astuteobservor II

    No, at this point, internet arguments are what is shaping the narrative. It is why Reddit got the kiss of death from the 3 letter agencies. It is why 4chan got taken over.

    As a Chinese, you really don’t want to make it China vs the world.

    Time to learn propaganda.

    Like the comment H1b mentioned about freeing Tibet. If we go back that far, India would not exist, need to be a colony again, be slaves again, USA would not exist either. Yet, Cooper concedes the point so easily.

    I can never understand that.

  221. @Rahan
    @Tor597

    Oh, even without any shit kicking happening to India, and without any refugees, the US and UK have already signed up waves of Indians to be imported, it's already a done deal, that's part of the alliance thing.

    And the tragedy, or farce, of the situation is, that the 10 years from now, once the last competent whites retire and only hysterics, drug addicts, thugs, and mulattoes are left in charge of the US, the imported Indians really WILL be the only more or less competent demographic that holds everything together, albeit at a 2nd world level.

    The currently existing yellow demographic will be able to maintain small chunks of 1st world, the Indians will maintain the 2nd world chunks, and everything else will be Minneapolis today.

    Unless right now this very minute new structures are created and enforced, which 10 years from now will start producing the first wave of competent 20 and 30 year old heritage Americans. Unless this happens everything will hang on the goodwill and basic abilities of Indians and Koreans etc.

    Replies: @Tor597, @anonymous coward

    lol

    Now we see the true nature of the Indian diaspora. You really think a bunch of Indians can run America and rule it?

    How crazy and delusional are you?

    No matter how bad Minnesota gets, it will still be infinitely better than India.

  222. @showmethereal
    @Vishnugupta

    Brahmos started years ago... So are you pretending Russia doesn't mind India cozying up to 5 Eyes?

    Replies: @Vishnugupta

    Brahmos 2 is effectively a brand new missile based on Zircon.

    Maybe Indians aren’t as diplomatically incompetent as some people think we are and have not cozied up with the Anglos to the extent you think we have.

    You seriously think Russia will be handing over state of the art tech to a country deemed compromised for a few billion dollars ?

    Russia has not leased/sold such tech to the Chinese.Dont tell me the PRC would not like to have an Akula2 to study and train its crew on or some Zircon missile derivatives of it’s own given the
    US presence in the S China sea.

    • Replies: @showmethereal
    @Vishnugupta

    Weapons programs make for strange bedfellows... But as to your statement that Russia hasn't sold such tech to China. Aside from aircraft engines and S400's- China doesn't buy much from Russia anymore because it doesn't need to. Are you aware of China's missile arsenal? China bought Kilo class subs from Russia - but hasn't bought any since.
    Actually one of the reasons Russia gave as to why it sold S400's to China for less was because they didn't need to support China in the same way they would need to support Turkey and India.

    Replies: @Vishnugupta

  223. @Daniel Chieh
    @d dan

    I think recent research has found that ants are actually among the most intelligent insects, even individually.

    https://time.com/118633/ant-intelligence-google/

    Replies: @d dan, @Anatoly Karlin

    Ants are the only insects that pass the mirror test. It is not that common even in the higher animals.

    • Thanks: Daniel Chieh
  224. @AnonFromTN
    @82-IQ H1B Indian

    I am not a member of the IQ sect, but I have a question: if democracy is so much better than its absence, why is India so far behind China? In 1990 India was ahead in GDP by PPP per capita (~$1,200 vs less than $1,000 in China), but today India is at ~$6,700, while China stands at more than twice that, >$15,000 (https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.CD?locations=CN-IN-GB).

    There are no hungry people in China, whereas in India tens of millions are chronically hungry, millions of children are malnourished. Every person in China has a place to live, whereas in India a sizable fraction of the population has no roof over its head and lives in the street. I am not even mentioning defecation all over the place.

    I know only one big difference: Chinese are essentially irreligious, whereas the majority of Indians are Hindu with caste system. Could that be the factor no democracy can compensate for?

    Replies: @82-IQ H1B Indian, @lin, @Anatoly Karlin

    I know only one big difference: Chinese are essentially irreligious, whereas the majority of Indians are Hindu with caste system.

    Explains how 1950s US was such a Third World shithole.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    @Anatoly Karlin

    I am not saying that religion is always bad, but sincere fervent religiosity is a huge impediment. Just compare Medieval Europe to the twentieth century. Or look at the Islamic world: the least religious (say, Turkey) are doing OK, whereas rabidly religious become Taliban or ISIS, or, in a less toxic incarnation, Muslim Brotherhood.

    American religiosity is peculiar. Americans do everything Christian dogma abhors and considers sinful six days a week, and then go to church on Sunday and consider themselves Christians. This kind of mock religiosity does not impede progress, its pure form without substance.

    Replies: @Meena

  225. @DB Cooper
    @82-IQ H1B Indian

    These kind of accusation only reflects the West and the Indians understanding of human nature given their historical experience but that doesn't make it universally true. Football hooligism is a thing for the British, that doesn't make it true for Indians (or even Americans). For your information so called ethnic oppression does not even existed in China. It is not even a thing, historically or contemporary. Chinese people doesn't even have ethnic slurs for any of its ethnic minorities group, including the Uighurs or the Tibetans. And there are over fifties recognized ethnic minorities group in China. Calling people names is probably the cheapest way to denigrate a people and don't you think before China went full blown on the concentration camps they would at least give the Uyghurs some ethnic slurs?

    Indians of course is a different animal. Ethnic oppression in India is not only a thing, the Indians institutionalized it to a system called the Caste and blessed it with a religion. This is one of the reasons why Indians are an inferior people with an inferior culture.

    Replies: @Anatoly Karlin

    It is not even a thing, historically or contemporary. Chinese people doesn’t even have ethnic slurs for any of its ethnic minorities group, including the Uighurs or the Tibetans.

    Sounds highly unlikely.

    • Replies: @lin
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Actually that's true that Chinese don't have ethnic slurs for national minorities, at least I'm not aware of or if those exist, usually mild because those minorities are not highly visible.
    Two interesting slang words for foreigners, slurs or not..
    **老毛子 or 毛子 for Russians. It means hairy man. Centuries ago Russians kept long beard.
    **高丽棒子 for koreans. It means 'Korean stick'. It's a superstitious synonym for ginseng used by ginseng collectors. Similar to calling germans 'kraut'.
    …………
    BTW, black slaves existed in ancient china but the number was very small and they had all merged with the Chinese gene pool. So far I only met one Chinese with natural afro peppercorn hair.
    The hero in the first Chinese martial art fiction actually was a black man: KunLun Nu--Nu means slave and Kunlun is the mountain range through which those slaves were trafficked. (Ancient Chinese history records seldom mention sky colors.) The story had been made into a TV series.
    Another half black notable I read was a general.

    Replies: @lin, @Daniel Chieh, @Menes

    , @DB Cooper
    @Anatoly Karlin

    "Sounds highly unlikely."

    I know. But it is true. There really is no ethnic slur word for the Uighurs or the Tibetans or any of the other ethnic minorities for that matter. You can do some investigation on this since you have a very good handle on everything Chinese in general.

    The West of course has an alphabetical soup of ethnic slur words for every ethnic group, which is very weird from the point of view of the Chinese. Anti-Semitism, oppression of the Irish by the English..etc. does not have an equivalent in China because groups like this would have long absorbed into the Han group. The US did not invent the melting pot thing. China did, not by intention of course.

    Replies: @Grahamsno(G64)

  226. Google says:
    June 18, 2020 at 7:33 am GMT • 100 Words   

    LMAO comments above that said India could defend (or even win) against China.

    India doesn’t have air superiority. Most of their jet fighters are dominated by su-30 according to wikipedia > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_Indian_military_aircraft

    According to this article, even China’s J-10 can win against su-35, and that’s the newer version of su-30 > https://militarywatchmagazine.com/article/china-s-j-10c-reportedly-crushed-the-russian-su-35-in-combat-exercises-how-the-firebird-came-out-on-top

    If China uses J-20, 5th gen stealth fighter, it will be slaughter for Indian air force. And when China has air superiority, even if India has billions of highly trained, superior ground forces, they’ll just be target practice for Chinese planes.

    Even Indian naval adventures in strait of Malacca will be met with Chinese type 055 destroyers. That if Indians are lucky enough the Chinese doesn’t use anti-ship missiles.

    Indian delusion is out of touch with reality.

    • Replies: @A123
    @Google


    LMAO comments above that said India could defend (or even win) against China.
     
    There is a huge difference between defending and winning. So, let us concentrate on the Indian defense scenario.
    ____

    Air superiority -- Fighters do not take land, they break things. In an infantry based slugging match how much do fighters help?

    Fighting in Northern India resembles Afghanistan. USSR had air superiority in Afghanistan. The U.S. had air superiority in Afghanistan. That helped the U.S. and USSR, but neither "won".

    Even Indian naval adventures in strait of Malacca will be met with Chinese type 055 destroyers. That if Indians are lucky enough the Chinese doesn’t use anti-ship missiles.
     
    Land based ASM is a huge problem for ships that have a limited engagement range. U.S. style supercarriers can provide air cover while staying out of land based ASM range. Number of operational Chinese supercarriers = 0. China has limits on its ability to operate near India's coast.

    India would also attempt to sneak land based ASM into islands within the Straits. Damaging a tanker's engines or steering in the Straits would lead to collisions or groundings. The Indians have the much easier objective, interfering with tanker traffic.
    _____

    It is hard to see on pure military terms how China scores a "win". The inevitable result would be a massive quagmire. Worse yet, unprovoked Chinese aggression would destroy China's relations with other nations.

    There simply is no rational upside to a Chinese invasion of India.

    Of course, "Wars are often started by mistake." Chinese incursions onto Indian territory seem reckless. The fact that both sides have nukes should give them a chance to de-escalate once China evacuates Indian territory. China is already waving the olive branch towards this outcome.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @Google

    , @showmethereal
    @Google

    China actually has SU-35's from Russia.... But it posts them facing US fighters in the east... Doesn't seem much concerned about India.

  227. Google says:
    June 18, 2020 at 8:05 am GMT • 300 Words   

    Who started the conflict?

    Let’s take a look at chains of events.

    US sent 3 carrier strike group to South China Sea.
    India had military agreement with Australia.
    There was mini covid outbreak in Beijing.

    India saw China weakened, though it would be opportunity to attack China, plus India recieved encouragement by US lately.

    Then look at the responses;
    Chinese side told India to back off; https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1191837.shtml

    Menwhile India;
    India told their soldiers to use guns basically breaking the treaty they signed; https://www.indiatvnews.com/news/india/indian-army-given-emergency-powers-lac-chinese-pla-ladakh-faceoff-galwan-626828
    India stocked up war reserves; https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/armed-forces-to-stock-up-war-reserves/articleshow/76415783.cms
    Indian navy sailed to strait of malacca; https://old.reddit.com/r/geopolitics/comments/hahhia/indian_army_releases_full_statement_on_ladakh/

    So why would India navy sailed to malacca when the dispute in China-India border? That’s because India will use the death of their soldier as excuse to attack China.

    India doesn’t want peace, they want war, as instructed by the empire. India will only back down when they realize they can’t win against China, but many Indians are chest thumping gamma males including Modi himself, so they have this delusion they can win against China.

    Oh, by the way, it’s not 20 Indian deaths and 43 Chinese deaths, it’s 20 Indian deaths and 43 Chinese casulties. The number for Indian casulties actually 130+, admitted by Indian general; https://sputniknews.com/asia/202006161079632991-at-least-20-indian-soldiers-killed-in-ladakh-skirmish-with-china-source-says/

    So why Indians have 3x more casulties? Chinese media claimed Indian army crossed to Chinese side and attacked. That makes sense because Chinese army had “home” advantage.

    China gave India chance to save face and de-escalate by not publishing their number.

  228. A123 says:
    @last straw
    @A123


    This reinforces my point about China’s strategic weakness as a predatory goods exporter. Any nation can penalize China’s vulnerable export trade surplus at any time.

    The EU is also joining India and the U.S. (2)
     
    Did you even read your own link? From the Politico article:

    The EU is seriously upping the ante in its drive to tackle unfair competition from China, the U.S. and other foreign players in the single market.

    Nations have no friends, only interests.

    Replies: @Astuteobservor II, @A123

    Did you even read your own link? From the Politico article:

    Yes.

    If you read the proposed EU actions, they will have little to no impact on real U.S. Firms.

    If the EU wants to hammer SJW Globalist multinationals that evade U.S. Taxes…. Any American objection will only be pro forma, at most. Though one imagines the EU will give in to corrupt multinationals before serious penalties are applied.

    PEACE 😇

    • Replies: @last straw
    @A123

    The EU and U.S. are about to start a trade war. The notion that they will unite to fight China only exists in someone's dream.

    https://www.politico.com/news/2020/06/18/europe-us-digital-tax-trade-war-328338

    Some of the issues facing EU and U.S. are rather long term:

    The EU should neither be treated as a partner superpower with whom the U.S. can share the spoils of unfettered trade nor should it be underestimated as a subordinate global power.

    Jonathan P.G. Bach
    December 1, 1999


    https://ips-dc.org/us-eu_trade_issues/

    I won't even mention the Boeing-Airbus dispute.

    Replies: @A123

  229. @Daniel Chieh
    @showmethereal

    Because he could not read the very article linked helpfully for him.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Vietnamese_conflicts,_1979%E2%80%931991

    Let's help him.

    https://imgur.com/jcW413N

    Besides that, the original Chinese objective was to keep Cambodia independent and that was the fundamental strategic goal which was successful. Cambodia remains one of the most pro-Chinese states in Asia.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambodia%E2%80%93China_relations


    Since 1997, China began developing closer relations with the regime of Cambodian Prime Minister Hun Sen, once a pro-Vietnamese leader and a defector from the Khmer Rouge during Vietnam's occupation of Cambodia. Although initially backing Hun Sen's political opponent Prince Norodom Ranariddh and his FUNCINPEC, China was disenchanted with Ranaridh's efforts to build a closer relationship with Taiwan, which is claimed by China. Facing international isolation after the 1997 coup that brought him to power, Hun Sen cultivated close ties with China, which opposed efforts by Western countries to impose economic sanctions on Cambodia. China's close ties with Cambodia have also served to gain leverage against Vietnamese influence in the region. Cambodia has severed all links with Taiwan and has strongly supported the reunification of Taiwan with China.
     
    As I've implied before, China is perfectly capable of playing the long game and thus does not need to inflict knockout blows, but can engage in levels of "gray zone" warfare short of total war to gain strategic advantage.

    And thus yes, forcing a lesser-industrialized rival to engage in a long war or engaging its policy such that it has to excessively spend on "gun' versus butter goods, is something that can be done. This was exactly what was done to Vietnam, as China pursued a normal foreign policy and economic building with the rest of the world, while the low-level war with Vietnam forced it to continually invest in the military. The 1992 concessions ultimately gained were not through any massive victory, but this grinding attrition that forced Vietnam to concede.

    The same await India if she chooses to engage in war, so as long as foreign actors don't get involved. That, unfortunately, is probably not guaranteed.

    Replies: @Not Only Wrathful, @Showmethereal, @reiner Tor

    Cambodia is still ruled by the Vietnamese imposed dictator…

    China also got none of what it set out to do and Vietnam adequately defended itself.

    Regardless, if you want to call the alienation of a bordering country, and others, along with a total strategic failure, somehow a victory because of…”tactical”, be my guest.

    It just reinforces to me how talking with so many Chinese about China is like walking on egg shells.

    The Chinese person thinks this makes them strong, as other people feel the need to step extremely carefully; but the Chinese need to do the same egg shell walk internally, as that’s the sacrifice of being fragile, and so are incapable of accurate self-reflection.

    So, yes, China are very wise and the Chinese invasion of Vietnam was a success. May the CCP have many more such successes!

    • Agree: AaronB
    • Disagree: showmethereal
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    @Not Only Wrathful


    China also got none of what it set out to do and Vietnam adequately defended itself.

     

    China accomplished everything she set out to do. And increased territorial gains.

    The Chinese person thinks this makes them strong, as other people feel the need to step extremely carefully; but the Chinese need to do the same egg shell walk internally, as that’s the sacrifice of being fragile, and so are incapable of accurate self-reflection.

     

    You have a fascinating little headspace you occupy. It'll be a pity to disturb it, so instead, please enjoy the below image of "accurate self-reflection."

    https://twitter.com/PaleoEconomist/status/1273264831777341442

    Replies: @Not Only Wrathful

    , @Blinky Bill
    @Not Only Wrathful


    Cambodia is still ruled by the Vietnamese imposed dictator…
     
    That's the equivalent of saying Vietnam is still ruled by a Chinese imposed regime...

    https://live.staticflickr.com/8440/7869195810_3ed16d964b_b.jpg

    A lot of water has passed under the bridge since then.

    https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcRRVa0_8hDjSX1-o_1PoMENWtjacRI48PHWg-0aeOg5NTvMS1WD&usqp.jpg

    Replies: @Menes

    , @d dan
    @Not Only Wrathful


    "Regardless, if you want to call the alienation of a bordering country, and others, along with a total strategic failure, somehow a victory because of…”tactical”, be my guest."
     
    This is the problem with commenter like you who don't know much (or anything) about a remote culture, and then try to make judgement and decision on something that you are totally ignorant of.

    Yes, China alienated Vietnamese - so what? China made plenty of friends out of ASEAN at that time because most ASEAN countries actually liked the fact that China was teaching Vietnamese a "lesson" that US couldn't. They felt much safer after the Chinese invasion. It further showed the useless-ness of Soviet-Vietnam alliance. Several commenters have already talked about the strategic reasons, and I could go on more and more for two hours - but at it stands, existing points are sufficient rebuttals for your silly comment.


    "It just reinforces to me how talking with so many Chinese about China is like walking on egg shells."
     
    And the egg shell is likely be on your head - it has been demonstrated again, again, again....., again, that people in the west are totally lost when talking about middle east, about Africa, about China,... They like to use their pre-existing western framework to understand foreign countries/culture.

    "so are incapable of accurate self-reflection"
     
    This shows your self projection - Chinese people is likely one of the most open-minded people today - they did serious soul searching for over a century to achieve what they arrive today - at one time, they even thought of giving up their own language, their religion etc! Just imagine how much self-reflections had they gone through.

    Most westerners, however, have gone the other way - kind of remind the Chinese of the way the Qinq officials treated foreigners - except it is the west that is treating Chinese this time.


    "So, yes, China are very wise and the Chinese invasion of Vietnam was a success. "
     
    If you were even perceptive enough, you would even notice that most Chinese don't bring up this episode - until some Indians, some Vietnamese or some westerners decide to bring this up as a way to show how the "weaknesses" of Chinese army. Talking about strawman....
  230. Meena says:
    @82-IQ H1B Indian
    @AnonFromTN

    This is an excellent question!

    I cannot explain every single nuance in just one post but before I take it up, let me correct a few things you mentioned in your question.


    There are no hungry people in China, whereas in India tens of millions are chronically hungry, millions of children are malnourished. Every person in China has a place to live, whereas in India a sizable fraction of the population has no roof over its head and lives in the street. I am not even mentioning defecation all over the place.
     
    From 1947 to mid 1990's China had more people in absolute poverty compared to India. India inherited the crown of ignominy in late nineties and passed it to Nigeria 3 years ago. Right now Nigeria has more people in absolute poverty compared to India. India currently has less than 50 million poor people. India has already lifted 250 million people out of poverty in just last 10 years. In next 5 years absolute poverty will be eliminated. Tackling relative poverty and mal-nutrition will come next. Only China did better than India in eliminating poverty.

    Regarding open defecation - Google Swachh Bharat Abiyaan. In 2014 only 38% of rural India had indoor toilets. It rose to 100% by Oct 2019. Even the critics admit that coverage is well over 90% now.

    Similarly there is a near universal banking account & health insurance for 500 million people (both of these took less than 3 years to cover the entire population BTW). 100% electric connections is done & current target is 100% piped water supply by 2022)

    So why did these happen in 5 years after 2014 and not in 60 years before 2014?

    Simple. India had "European" Prime Ministers from 1947 to 2014 and "Asian" Prime Minister from 2014 till date. The current PM of India is similar to Lee Kuan Yew/ Deng Xiaoping/ Park Chung-hee. He studied why Asian nations progressed and India did not and implementing what should have been done 40 years ago. He is not much into intellectualizing things. He is more of an engineer type (what is the problem & how to fix it). India's problems have nothing to do with caste system.

    When India became independent in 1947, it went with extremely idealistic constitution and social policies. With a 90% poverty and illiteracy rate, it went with universal franchise democracy. It may fail in implementation but on statue books the laws would fit nicely to a rich Scandinavian nation :-) Women and lower castes were given right to vote on day 1. Backward castes were given reservations in jobs and education from day 1. It did hurt meritocracy but it was seen that social justice was more important than efficiency.

    Similarly because India was colonized by East India company, the first prime minister disdained private companies. He publicly said that he considered "profit" as a bad word. In his view only govt can save poor from rapacious private enterprise. So systematically Indian private enterprise was destroyed. The public sector with its legendary inefficiency and corruption (monopoly!) neither generated wealth nor efficiency. Before reforms in 1991, Indian govt companies made bread and ran hotels (and everything in between)!!

    He was terrified on Military coup as well just like other third world nations. So, British Indian Army which was the best armed forces in all of Asia was systematically weakened by making it subservient to bureaucracy & promoting "loyal" people. But it didn't last long. 1962 defeat jolted him and since then Indian Armed forces are left mostly to professional soldiers (of course under layers of bureaucratic control)

    All of it came crashing down in 1991 economic crisis. That forced India to dismantle "licence raj" and allow private and foreign companies to do business in India.

    But as I mentioned earlier, the path to hell is paved with good intentions. India wanted to protect vulnerable farmers hence created a nightmare laws that will not let him die but also will not let him prosper (land ceiling act/ APMC/ Minimum support price, Not allowing agri land to change for industrial purposes etc).

    Similarly the playing field is massively rigged in favor of labor (to protect him from exploitative private enterprise you see?) This meant that while other asian countries became export powerhouses we go around bragging how we did not let poor exploited by companies. Changing them against labor will have electoral consequences :-)

    There are tonnes of more issues that I may have skipped but bottom line is that after first prime minister, the current PM of India has the most powerful mandate from the people of India. He is not a capitalist of the Anglo-saxon school. Instead just like post war Germany, Japan, Taiwan, South Korea, Singapore he is mostly in favor of Ordoliberalism ==> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordoliberalism

    Whether India will successfully Industrialize or not will be decided in future (On this forum people are already dead sure that India will never become industrial economy since they have sub-human IQ :-) But when we see North Korea vs South Korea, clearly economic policies do matter)

    Replies: @DB Cooper, @Tor597, @Meena, @Not Only Wrathful, @AnonFromTN, @songbird, @Philip Owen, @Escher

    Fudging the data is a big business in India at very level. This government is worse .
    1 Shanties and slums of India ( they at least have a permanent home compared to

    2 Scattered homeless in cities numbering millions in Calcutta Delhi Bombay Chennai ?
    3 Toilet in the slums are about 1 for every 100 persons

    4 Toilets in villages number about 1 toilet per 10 people
    5 People still defecate openly in villages and in Cities !

    6 The worst kind of hygienic practices one can see is around the temple of Calcutta Bihar and Northern States .

    7Poverty reduction is joke . More people have joined the poverty after 1990 than before as a percentage
    More people have seen poverty since 2000

    8 During Pandemic , millions of migrants have gone hungry ,thousands have died from lack of basic amenities including food

    9 Government jobs have evaporated and private jobs have become scare

    10 Indian Dalit, untouchable and Tribal constitue majority Poverty level among them run in 90 % or more .

    11 Media now fully under Modi’s control fudge the numbers on any thing that the Government wants it to do.
    11 India’s child and women mortality are worse than neighboring Sri Lanka Bangladesh and Pakistan
    12 Violence against women are rampant in northern states where the cow belt sits.
    13 Indian basic education lags behind Bangladesh and Sri Lanka .

  231. A123 says:
    @Astuteobservor II
    @last straw

    I think the omission is on purpose so the Zionist troll can build his case.

    His job is to constantly to spout non sense to bury the comments sections.

    It is why you all should ignore the troll, don't feed it.

    Replies: @A123

    I think the omission is on purpose so the Zionist troll can build his case.

    ObliviousObserver the Troll,

    The topic of the thread is India-China.

    Limiting the discussion to issues about China that will be exacerbated if China is seen as aggressive is called staying on-topic. When asked about the specific point I tried to provide the shortest possible clarification that will not drag the conversation off-topic.

    His job is to constantly to spout non sense to bury the comments sections.

    No. That is Troll Chieh’s job. And, apparently yours.

    It is why you all should ignore the troll, don’t feed it.

    Occasionally one has to respond to TROLLS to warn other readers about the trolling.

    Fortunately everyone now knows that you and Troll Chieh are TROLLS. Your allegiance to Iranian pay masters was fairly obvious as soon as you opened your mouth.

    PEACE 😇

    • LOL: Daniel Chieh
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    @A123


    Iranian pay masters
     
    The great puppeteer, Teheran.
  232. @A123
    @Astuteobservor II


    I think the omission is on purpose so the Zionist troll can build his case.
     
    ObliviousObserver the Troll,

    The topic of the thread is India-China.

    Limiting the discussion to issues about China that will be exacerbated if China is seen as aggressive is called staying on-topic. When asked about the specific point I tried to provide the shortest possible clarification that will not drag the conversation off-topic.

    His job is to constantly to spout non sense to bury the comments sections.
     
    No. That is Troll Chieh's job. And, apparently yours.

    It is why you all should ignore the troll, don’t feed it.
     
    Occasionally one has to respond to TROLLS to warn other readers about the trolling.

    Fortunately everyone now knows that you and Troll Chieh are TROLLS. Your allegiance to Iranian pay masters was fairly obvious as soon as you opened your mouth.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    Iranian pay masters

    The great puppeteer, Teheran.

    • LOL: Ano4
  233. @Daemon
    @A123

    Looks like being a Jew doesnt offset the IQ loss from being a boomercon.

    You do realize manufacturing in the USA using American "labor", American (((Regulations))) and American (((Taxes))) would easily push the finished product to somewhere north of $3000 right?

    You would need to tarrif the chinese not just 30%, but 300% to get any manufacturer to budge. At which point, they'd simply flip you the bird and leave.

    Replies: @Not Only Wrathful

    Manufacturing in the United States is higher than its ever been and is far higher than it was 30 years ago; so it would seem unlikely that making iPhones in the US would be difficult.

    • Replies: @A123
    @Not Only Wrathful


    Manufacturing in the United States is higher than its ever been and is far higher than it was 30 years ago; so it would seem unlikely that making iPhones in the US would be difficult.
     
    Achieving 100% replacement is achievable but not instantaneous.

    Using increasing tariffs to force realignment over time will re-build capabilities that predators (China) and traitors (SJW multinationals) have more or less wiped out.

    The 'cold turkey' zero trade case is not good for the U.S. but much worse for China. If Xi wants that outcome, he can brutally damage his own country.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @AaronB

    , @Daemon
    @Not Only Wrathful

    Manufacturing in the United States is higher than its ever been but the percentage of the population engaged in manufacturing as paid employment has never been lower. Makes sense that in order to make in america, you need to get rid of americans. Also, unless you have full front-to-back control of the supply chain like China does, you will still face increased operating costs in the form of externalities like tariffs, supply chain inefficiencies not to mention expensive overhead like OSHA, EPA etc etc. Automation will give you an edge, but labor costs are only one side of the equation.

    If you think that all it takes is for Trump to wave his hand to decouple the two countries and take the clock back to 1970 and everyone will 'get their jerbs back', think again. That ship has unfortunately sailed.

    Replies: @Not Only Wrathful

    , @Blinky Bill
    @Not Only Wrathful

    “In the U.S., you could have a meeting of tooling engineers and I’m not sure we could fill the room,” he said. “In China, you could fill multiple football fields.”

    Party Secretary Timothy D. Cook.


    Article by the Mouth piece of the CCP.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/28/technology/iphones-apple-china-made.html

    Replies: @Not Only Wrathful

    , @showmethereal
    @Not Only Wrathful

    So what is Trump and the MAGA crowd complaining about American manufacturing jobs being "raped"??? Well yeah the US makes more in dollar value - but in capacity it is not comparatively higher. It certainly is NOT higher in terms of employment percentage. Those things are too hard to grasp for his voters. Manufacturing is becoming more and more automated everywhere.

  234. @Not Only Wrathful
    @Daniel Chieh

    Cambodia is still ruled by the Vietnamese imposed dictator...

    China also got none of what it set out to do and Vietnam adequately defended itself.

    Regardless, if you want to call the alienation of a bordering country, and others, along with a total strategic failure, somehow a victory because of..."tactical", be my guest.

    It just reinforces to me how talking with so many Chinese about China is like walking on egg shells.

    The Chinese person thinks this makes them strong, as other people feel the need to step extremely carefully; but the Chinese need to do the same egg shell walk internally, as that's the sacrifice of being fragile, and so are incapable of accurate self-reflection.

    So, yes, China are very wise and the Chinese invasion of Vietnam was a success. May the CCP have many more such successes!

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @Blinky Bill, @d dan

    China also got none of what it set out to do and Vietnam adequately defended itself.

    China accomplished everything she set out to do. And increased territorial gains.

    The Chinese person thinks this makes them strong, as other people feel the need to step extremely carefully; but the Chinese need to do the same egg shell walk internally, as that’s the sacrifice of being fragile, and so are incapable of accurate self-reflection.

    You have a fascinating little headspace you occupy. It’ll be a pity to disturb it, so instead, please enjoy the below image of “accurate self-reflection.”

    • Replies: @Not Only Wrathful
    @Daniel Chieh

    You're obviously wrong, but, as I said, if you want to claim a victory, then let me wish you hundreds more similar victories...

    As for the US, which I am not from, I agree absolutely that the ruling class, and those directly supporting them, are also poor at self-reflection.

    Their lack of such is more subtle than the Chinese one; which consists of simply "hurr durr I am the best and question me at your peril." It also requires much more strength.

    The contemporary US way is thus the opposite of the Chinese way, in that it is a lack of self-reflection which delights in pretending otherwise. It is "I am so bad, I am so terrible, my history is awful, I must be highly self-reflective (see how self-sacrificing I can be, and therefore how strong!)" It is late adolescent rather than infantile.

    Regardless, for both, the reward is blind smugness, even as they are possibly necessary steps along the same path to something more complete.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @AaronB

  235. @Rahan
    @Tor597

    Oh, even without any shit kicking happening to India, and without any refugees, the US and UK have already signed up waves of Indians to be imported, it's already a done deal, that's part of the alliance thing.

    And the tragedy, or farce, of the situation is, that the 10 years from now, once the last competent whites retire and only hysterics, drug addicts, thugs, and mulattoes are left in charge of the US, the imported Indians really WILL be the only more or less competent demographic that holds everything together, albeit at a 2nd world level.

    The currently existing yellow demographic will be able to maintain small chunks of 1st world, the Indians will maintain the 2nd world chunks, and everything else will be Minneapolis today.

    Unless right now this very minute new structures are created and enforced, which 10 years from now will start producing the first wave of competent 20 and 30 year old heritage Americans. Unless this happens everything will hang on the goodwill and basic abilities of Indians and Koreans etc.

    Replies: @Tor597, @anonymous coward

    The currently existing yellow demographic will be able to maintain small chunks of 1st world, the Indians will maintain the 2nd world chunks, and everything else will be Minneapolis today.

    The ‘three worlds’ are not tiers of awesomeness. ‘1st world’ meant capitalist countries lead by the USA, ‘2nd world’ meant socialist countries lead by the USSR, and ‘3rd world’ meant whatever kind of system China was at the time.

    The ‘three worlds’ are so named because they corresponded to the three sides in the conflict known as the ‘Cold War’.

    (And yes, China and USSR used to be enemies and even fought wars, a fact that has been since thoroughly memoryholed.)

  236. @82-IQ H1B Indian
    @AnonFromTN

    This is an excellent question!

    I cannot explain every single nuance in just one post but before I take it up, let me correct a few things you mentioned in your question.


    There are no hungry people in China, whereas in India tens of millions are chronically hungry, millions of children are malnourished. Every person in China has a place to live, whereas in India a sizable fraction of the population has no roof over its head and lives in the street. I am not even mentioning defecation all over the place.
     
    From 1947 to mid 1990's China had more people in absolute poverty compared to India. India inherited the crown of ignominy in late nineties and passed it to Nigeria 3 years ago. Right now Nigeria has more people in absolute poverty compared to India. India currently has less than 50 million poor people. India has already lifted 250 million people out of poverty in just last 10 years. In next 5 years absolute poverty will be eliminated. Tackling relative poverty and mal-nutrition will come next. Only China did better than India in eliminating poverty.

    Regarding open defecation - Google Swachh Bharat Abiyaan. In 2014 only 38% of rural India had indoor toilets. It rose to 100% by Oct 2019. Even the critics admit that coverage is well over 90% now.

    Similarly there is a near universal banking account & health insurance for 500 million people (both of these took less than 3 years to cover the entire population BTW). 100% electric connections is done & current target is 100% piped water supply by 2022)

    So why did these happen in 5 years after 2014 and not in 60 years before 2014?

    Simple. India had "European" Prime Ministers from 1947 to 2014 and "Asian" Prime Minister from 2014 till date. The current PM of India is similar to Lee Kuan Yew/ Deng Xiaoping/ Park Chung-hee. He studied why Asian nations progressed and India did not and implementing what should have been done 40 years ago. He is not much into intellectualizing things. He is more of an engineer type (what is the problem & how to fix it). India's problems have nothing to do with caste system.

    When India became independent in 1947, it went with extremely idealistic constitution and social policies. With a 90% poverty and illiteracy rate, it went with universal franchise democracy. It may fail in implementation but on statue books the laws would fit nicely to a rich Scandinavian nation :-) Women and lower castes were given right to vote on day 1. Backward castes were given reservations in jobs and education from day 1. It did hurt meritocracy but it was seen that social justice was more important than efficiency.

    Similarly because India was colonized by East India company, the first prime minister disdained private companies. He publicly said that he considered "profit" as a bad word. In his view only govt can save poor from rapacious private enterprise. So systematically Indian private enterprise was destroyed. The public sector with its legendary inefficiency and corruption (monopoly!) neither generated wealth nor efficiency. Before reforms in 1991, Indian govt companies made bread and ran hotels (and everything in between)!!

    He was terrified on Military coup as well just like other third world nations. So, British Indian Army which was the best armed forces in all of Asia was systematically weakened by making it subservient to bureaucracy & promoting "loyal" people. But it didn't last long. 1962 defeat jolted him and since then Indian Armed forces are left mostly to professional soldiers (of course under layers of bureaucratic control)

    All of it came crashing down in 1991 economic crisis. That forced India to dismantle "licence raj" and allow private and foreign companies to do business in India.

    But as I mentioned earlier, the path to hell is paved with good intentions. India wanted to protect vulnerable farmers hence created a nightmare laws that will not let him die but also will not let him prosper (land ceiling act/ APMC/ Minimum support price, Not allowing agri land to change for industrial purposes etc).

    Similarly the playing field is massively rigged in favor of labor (to protect him from exploitative private enterprise you see?) This meant that while other asian countries became export powerhouses we go around bragging how we did not let poor exploited by companies. Changing them against labor will have electoral consequences :-)

    There are tonnes of more issues that I may have skipped but bottom line is that after first prime minister, the current PM of India has the most powerful mandate from the people of India. He is not a capitalist of the Anglo-saxon school. Instead just like post war Germany, Japan, Taiwan, South Korea, Singapore he is mostly in favor of Ordoliberalism ==> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordoliberalism

    Whether India will successfully Industrialize or not will be decided in future (On this forum people are already dead sure that India will never become industrial economy since they have sub-human IQ :-) But when we see North Korea vs South Korea, clearly economic policies do matter)

    Replies: @DB Cooper, @Tor597, @Meena, @Not Only Wrathful, @AnonFromTN, @songbird, @Philip Owen, @Escher

    Yes, previous Indian leaders didn’t accept India for how she was. Their inability to admit their shame at the widespread poverty precluded them. Modi has no such problems and, unsurprisingly, poverty is melting away.

  237. @Astuteobservor II
    @AnonFromTN

    China is weird in how it fragments and reunites always. Even two dynasties under suppose barbarian rulers.

    You are telling China to let go of territories China considers it's provinces.

    The very Chinese first reaction would probably be disbelief that any outsider can be that stupid, and arrogant enough to think they can dictate terms to China on that scale.

    The second would probably be war.

    Remember when trump gave a phone call to Taiwan's current president, remember the immediate Chinese response?

    War baby, it is on. 1000% at that point.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

    You are telling China to let go of territories China considers its provinces.

    As a matter of fact, I am not. China has a record of resolving its land disputes with neighbors via negotiations. A multi-thousand-miles border with Russia is a good example: all disputes resolved, and both sides benefit from facilitated cross-border travel and trade immensely. I hear that everything in stores on both sides of the border is in two languages, Russian and Mandarin.

    But it takes two to tango, so this option does not exist with unreasonable neighbors. Basically, the development of this conflict would show whether India is a reasonable neighbor. If it is not, even the multitude of Hindu Gods won’t save it.

    • Agree: Ano4
    • Troll: AaronB
  238. A123 says:
    June 18, 2020 at 1:07 pm GMT • 300 Words   
    @Google
    LMAO comments above that said India could defend (or even win) against China.

    India doesn't have air superiority. Most of their jet fighters are dominated by su-30 according to wikipedia > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_Indian_military_aircraft

    According to this article, even China's J-10 can win against su-35, and that's the newer version of su-30 > https://militarywatchmagazine.com/article/china-s-j-10c-reportedly-crushed-the-russian-su-35-in-combat-exercises-how-the-firebird-came-out-on-top

    If China uses J-20, 5th gen stealth fighter, it will be slaughter for Indian air force. And when China has air superiority, even if India has billions of highly trained, superior ground forces, they'll just be target practice for Chinese planes.

    Even Indian naval adventures in strait of Malacca will be met with Chinese type 055 destroyers. That if Indians are lucky enough the Chinese doesn't use anti-ship missiles.

    Indian delusion is out of touch with reality.

    Replies: @A123, @showmethereal

    LMAO comments above that said India could defend (or even win) against China.

    There is a huge difference between defending and winning. So, let us concentrate on the Indian defense scenario.
    ____

    Air superiority — Fighters do not take land, they break things. In an infantry based slugging match how much do fighters help?

    Fighting in Northern India resembles Afghanistan. USSR had air superiority in Afghanistan. The U.S. had air superiority in Afghanistan. That helped the U.S. and USSR, but neither “won”.

    Even Indian naval adventures in strait of Malacca will be met with Chinese type 055 destroyers. That if Indians are lucky enough the Chinese doesn’t use anti-ship missiles.

    Land based ASM is a huge problem for ships that have a limited engagement range. U.S. style supercarriers can provide air cover while staying out of land based ASM range. Number of operational Chinese supercarriers = 0. China has limits on its ability to operate near India’s coast.

    India would also attempt to sneak land based ASM into islands within the Straits. Damaging a tanker’s engines or steering in the Straits would lead to collisions or groundings. The Indians have the much easier objective, interfering with tanker traffic.
    _____

    It is hard to see on pure military terms how China scores a “win”. The inevitable result would be a massive quagmire. Worse yet, unprovoked Chinese aggression would destroy China’s relations with other nations.

    There simply is no rational upside to a Chinese invasion of India.

    Of course, “Wars are often started by mistake.” Chinese incursions onto Indian territory seem reckless. The fact that both sides have nukes should give them a chance to de-escalate once China evacuates Indian territory. China is already waving the olive branch towards this outcome.

    PEACE 😇

    • Replies: @Google
    @A123

    LMAO LMAO.


    Fighters do not take land, they break things. In an infantry based slugging match how much do fighters help?

     

    The idea of air superiority isn't to take lands. It's to bomb the enemy. Once Indian army and bases are bombed, the Chinese land force can annex the land.

    Land based ASM is a huge problem for ships that have a limited engagement range
     
    Huh? Anti-ship missile would be used for defensive. Do you even know where strait of malacca is?

    U.S. style supercarriers can provide air cover while staying out of land based ASM range
     
    Huh? Air cover from what?

    Number of operational Chinese supercarriers = 0. China has limits on its ability to operate near India’s coast.
     
    This is not Chinese aircraft carrier? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_aircraft_carrier_Shandong
    At least if you want to argue, google the subject 1st, so that you won't look ignorant.
    And why would China need to attack India from the sea when China could annex Indian land with combination of air force & land force? Chinese naval force would be used for defense in case of Indians desperately tries to attack from the sea.

    India would also attempt to sneak land based ASM into islands within the Straits. Damaging a tanker’s engines or steering in the Straits would lead to collisions or groundings. The Indians have the much easier objective, interfering with tanker traffic.
     
    Huh? Sneaking it within what straits? Straits of malacca? Tanker? What tanker?

    It is hard to see on pure military terms how China scores a “win”. The inevitable result would be a massive quagmire. Worse yet, unprovoked Chinese aggression would destroy China’s relations with other nations
     
    Win is when India is bombed to oblivion. Unprovoked? Everyone knows it was Indians who crossed Chinese territory. Here's map where the brawl happened; https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/C035/production/_112950294_india_china_galwan_valley_clash_v2_640-nc.png from BBC nonetheless, anti-China media, even they couldn't lie much.
    China would get a lot of allies in South Asia by annexing disputed area India have with neighbors like Nepal, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh and give the land to those countries. Even western MSM would have hard time spinning it as China land grabbing. China would be seen by South Asian countries as benevolent liberator.

    Be lucky CCP isn't warmonger, because if CCP was more hawkish that's what would happen.
  239. Meena says:
    June 18, 2020 at 1:08 pm GMT • 200 Words   
    @Jatt Arya
    @DB Cooper

    Only if they re-convert||
    China is doing this to offset Indian moves in POK & Pak is moving into Gilgit-Baltistan||

    http://delhidefencereview.com/2017/08/13/did-indian-army-troops-save-chinese-troops-in-sudan/

    Troop quality is on Indian side, lot of high altitude experience.
    Already lakhs of acclimatized men||

    62 was due to Nehru not funding the army, 303s don't do well vs AKs.
    Later skirmishes have been won by India||
    China faces the issue of taking off at a higher altitude and lack of native pop in Army||

    @not raul

    Every time you link a BBC article about India v Pak (known pro-Muslim bias)
    A dozen anglo girls are raped in the cellars||

    I would bet 1.5 to 1 in favor of China mostly because of Pak, Nepal & Intl (white) actors seeking to take down Modi||
    Babus are also cowards & Hindus want peace||

    Replies: @DB Cooper, @Jatt Arya, @Tor597, @Meena

    “At least 69fake videos against Muslims and at least 28attacks listedMedia Scanner, a fact-checkingplatform, compiled a list of at least 69fake videos against Muslims and listed at least 28attacks prompted by online abuse. Joyojeet Pal, Associate Professor atthe University of Michigan, and three others found “arise in the number of debunked misinformation, especially following the thirdweek of March.”Pal’s study confirmed the progression of events that followed thegovernment’s religious profiling. “A key 30-day period”, from March 14-April12, “was dominated by discussions of a possible lockdown and about infections”;the discourse gradually “changed to Muslims and religion moresignificantly”, said the study.cited by scroll.in, on Apr 21, 2020.For more : https://scroll.in/article/959806/covid-19-how-fake-news-and-modi-government-messaging-fuelled-indias-latest-spiral-of-islamophobia  https://countercurrents.org/2020/05/fake-news-targeting-muslims-exposed-by-police-but-still-aired-and-that-even-by-mainstream-media

    Indian media under Modi has become an an accomplice in Modi’s calculated atrocity against Muslim .

    No wonder it finds common cause with Likkud of Israel and AIPAC of USA .

    Didn’t Hindustan Times in 2017 put the blames on the burning of the 2002 train squarely on intentional or accidental setting off fire inside the train by the Ram devout pilgrims ? Does that not make the entire Gujrat riot not an act of revenge but an act of premeditated intentional starting ,causing riot supporting riot and adding to riot by the Modi Gov of Gujrata?

    How many times BJP RSS leaders have expressed the desires to rape the Muslim women? As many times the elections have been held since 1987.

    • Agree: Ano4
  240. lin says:
    June 18, 2020 at 1:15 pm GMT • 200 Words   
    @Anatoly Karlin
    @DB Cooper


    It is not even a thing, historically or contemporary. Chinese people doesn’t even have ethnic slurs for any of its ethnic minorities group, including the Uighurs or the Tibetans.
     
    Sounds highly unlikely.

    Replies: @lin, @DB Cooper

    Actually that’s true that Chinese don’t have ethnic slurs for national minorities, at least I’m not aware of or if those exist, usually mild because those minorities are not highly visible.
    Two interesting slang words for foreigners, slurs or not..
    **老毛子 or 毛子 for Russians. It means hairy man. Centuries ago Russians kept long beard.
    **高丽棒子 for koreans. It means ‘Korean stick’. It’s a superstitious synonym for ginseng used by ginseng collectors. Similar to calling germans ‘kraut’.
    …………
    BTW, black slaves existed in ancient china but the number was very small and they had all merged with the Chinese gene pool. So far I only met one Chinese with natural afro peppercorn hair.
    The hero in the first Chinese martial art fiction actually was a black man: KunLun Nu–Nu means slave and Kunlun is the mountain range through which those slaves were trafficked. (Ancient Chinese history records seldom mention sky colors.) The story had been made into a TV series.
    Another half black notable I read was a general.

    • Replies: @lin
    @lin

    Sorry for the typo: It should be Ancient Chinese history records seldom mention skin colors

    , @Daniel Chieh
    @lin

    國姓爺 has black soldiers who were not quite slaves, but were on lower on the totem pole than his Chinese soldiers.


    Koxinga was abundantly provided with cannons and ammunition . . He had also two companies of 'Black-boys,' many of whom had been Dutch slaves and had learned the use of the rifle and musket-arms. These caused much harm during the war in Formosa.

    The latter courageously marched in rows of twelve men towards the enemy, and when they came near enough, they charged by firing three volleys uniformly. The enemy, not less brave, discharged so great a storm of arrows that they seemed to darken the sky. From both sides some few fell hors de combat, but still the Chinese were not going to run away, as was imagined. The Dutch troops now noticed the separated Chinese squadron which came to surprise them from the rear; and seeing that those in front stubbornly held their ground, it now became a case of sero sapiunt Phryges. They now discovered that they had been too confident of the weakness of the enemy, and had not anticipated such resistance. If they were courageous before the battle (seeking to emulate the actions of Gideon), fear now took the place of their courage, and many of them threw down their rifles without even discharging them at the enemy. Indeed, they took to their heels, with shameful haste, leaving their brave comrades and valiant Captain in the lurch. Pedel, judging that it would be the veriest folly to withstand such overwhelming numbers, wished to close together and retreat in good order, but his soldiers would not listen to him. Fear had the upper-hand, and life was dear to them; each therefore sought to save himself. The Chinese saw the disorder and attacked still more vigorously, cutting down all before them. They gave no quarter, but went on until the Captain with one hundred and eighteen of his army were slain on the field of battle, as a penalty for making light of the enemy. Other misfortunes befell this unhappy company. A large number of the rifles in possession of our troops were left behind. This battle was fought on a sandy plain, from which escape was impossible, and but for the proximity of the pilot-boat, which lay close to the shore, not one would have been left to tell the tale. The fugitives, who had to wade up to their throats in water, were conveyed to Tayouan..
     

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Fort_Zeelandia

    Replies: @Lin

    , @Menes
    @lin


    The hero in the first Chinese martial art fiction actually was a black man: KunLun Nu–
     
    More like black superman.

    The most famous chinese, Confucius, was also a black man (maybe from India?):

    https://news.nationalgeographic.com/content/dam/news/2015/03/25/booktalkconfucius/01booktalkconfucius.ngsversion.1427295629936.adapt.1900.1.jpg

    https://dailygeekshow.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/confucius-portrait.jpg


    As was Bodhidharma, the founder of Chan or Zen Buddhism, and the non-violent buddhist martial arts like Kung Fu:

    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/7e/d4/c2/7ed4c28f7186d7670ff0a8e8b8cb8797.jpg

    http://harmonybudo.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/bodhidharma.jpg

    Replies: @lin, @Ano4

  241. @Daniel Chieh
    @Not Only Wrathful


    China also got none of what it set out to do and Vietnam adequately defended itself.

     

    China accomplished everything she set out to do. And increased territorial gains.

    The Chinese person thinks this makes them strong, as other people feel the need to step extremely carefully; but the Chinese need to do the same egg shell walk internally, as that’s the sacrifice of being fragile, and so are incapable of accurate self-reflection.

     

    You have a fascinating little headspace you occupy. It'll be a pity to disturb it, so instead, please enjoy the below image of "accurate self-reflection."

    https://twitter.com/PaleoEconomist/status/1273264831777341442

    Replies: @Not Only Wrathful

    You’re obviously wrong, but, as I said, if you want to claim a victory, then let me wish you hundreds more similar victories…

    As for the US, which I am not from, I agree absolutely that the ruling class, and those directly supporting them, are also poor at self-reflection.

    Their lack of such is more subtle than the Chinese one; which consists of simply “hurr durr I am the best and question me at your peril.” It also requires much more strength.

    The contemporary US way is thus the opposite of the Chinese way, in that it is a lack of self-reflection which delights in pretending otherwise. It is “I am so bad, I am so terrible, my history is awful, I must be highly self-reflective (see how self-sacrificing I can be, and therefore how strong!)” It is late adolescent rather than infantile.

    Regardless, for both, the reward is blind smugness, even as they are possibly necessary steps along the same path to something more complete.

    • Agree: utu
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    @Not Only Wrathful

    People like you encourage me to abandon all effortposting to simply indulge into full trolling. Thank you for helping me realize the Internet's true purpose.

    Replies: @Astuteobservor II

    , @AaronB
    @Not Only Wrathful

    Good insights.

    Rare on Unz.

  242. @lin
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Actually that's true that Chinese don't have ethnic slurs for national minorities, at least I'm not aware of or if those exist, usually mild because those minorities are not highly visible.
    Two interesting slang words for foreigners, slurs or not..
    **老毛子 or 毛子 for Russians. It means hairy man. Centuries ago Russians kept long beard.
    **高丽棒子 for koreans. It means 'Korean stick'. It's a superstitious synonym for ginseng used by ginseng collectors. Similar to calling germans 'kraut'.
    …………
    BTW, black slaves existed in ancient china but the number was very small and they had all merged with the Chinese gene pool. So far I only met one Chinese with natural afro peppercorn hair.
    The hero in the first Chinese martial art fiction actually was a black man: KunLun Nu--Nu means slave and Kunlun is the mountain range through which those slaves were trafficked. (Ancient Chinese history records seldom mention sky colors.) The story had been made into a TV series.
    Another half black notable I read was a general.

    Replies: @lin, @Daniel Chieh, @Menes

    Sorry for the typo: It should be Ancient Chinese history records seldom mention skin colors

  243. @Tor597
    @82-IQ H1B Indian

    Blah blah blah.

    India has an IQ of 82. There is smart fraction, but not enough smarts to overcome the majority of low iq Indians.

    Replies: @LOLknee

    Richard Lynn’s numbers are fraudulent. David Becker’s are no better. You can keep spouting these numbers if they make you feel better, but a lie is a lie.

    Where’s the innovation coming out of supposedly “high-IQ” Poland and Hungary? Where are the Slavic tigers?

    • Replies: @Tor597
    @LOLknee

    The IQ numbers are accurate.

    There is a lot that goes into producing economic activity and innovation besides IQ. Keep in mind that China was as poor as Africa despite having a much higher IQ.

    And North Koreans are much smarter than Africans despite having a lower living standard.

    Communism, high taxation, poor monetary policy, high tarrifs, no rule of law work against a population where even if they are smart they will never succeed.

    With India, the caste system has polarized the IQ distribution amongst its population producing a small amount of very smart people and a large amount of low iq people.

    Replies: @LOLknee, @LOLknee, @LOLknee

  244. @Not Only Wrathful
    @Daniel Chieh

    You're obviously wrong, but, as I said, if you want to claim a victory, then let me wish you hundreds more similar victories...

    As for the US, which I am not from, I agree absolutely that the ruling class, and those directly supporting them, are also poor at self-reflection.

    Their lack of such is more subtle than the Chinese one; which consists of simply "hurr durr I am the best and question me at your peril." It also requires much more strength.

    The contemporary US way is thus the opposite of the Chinese way, in that it is a lack of self-reflection which delights in pretending otherwise. It is "I am so bad, I am so terrible, my history is awful, I must be highly self-reflective (see how self-sacrificing I can be, and therefore how strong!)" It is late adolescent rather than infantile.

    Regardless, for both, the reward is blind smugness, even as they are possibly necessary steps along the same path to something more complete.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @AaronB

    People like you encourage me to abandon all effortposting to simply indulge into full trolling. Thank you for helping me realize the Internet’s true purpose.

    • Thanks: Not Only Wrathful
    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
    @Daniel Chieh

    Finally. No more serious replies to trolls. Good for you. Don't feed the trolls.

  245. @82-IQ H1B Indian
    @AnonFromTN

    This is an excellent question!

    I cannot explain every single nuance in just one post but before I take it up, let me correct a few things you mentioned in your question.


    There are no hungry people in China, whereas in India tens of millions are chronically hungry, millions of children are malnourished. Every person in China has a place to live, whereas in India a sizable fraction of the population has no roof over its head and lives in the street. I am not even mentioning defecation all over the place.
     
    From 1947 to mid 1990's China had more people in absolute poverty compared to India. India inherited the crown of ignominy in late nineties and passed it to Nigeria 3 years ago. Right now Nigeria has more people in absolute poverty compared to India. India currently has less than 50 million poor people. India has already lifted 250 million people out of poverty in just last 10 years. In next 5 years absolute poverty will be eliminated. Tackling relative poverty and mal-nutrition will come next. Only China did better than India in eliminating poverty.

    Regarding open defecation - Google Swachh Bharat Abiyaan. In 2014 only 38% of rural India had indoor toilets. It rose to 100% by Oct 2019. Even the critics admit that coverage is well over 90% now.

    Similarly there is a near universal banking account & health insurance for 500 million people (both of these took less than 3 years to cover the entire population BTW). 100% electric connections is done & current target is 100% piped water supply by 2022)

    So why did these happen in 5 years after 2014 and not in 60 years before 2014?

    Simple. India had "European" Prime Ministers from 1947 to 2014 and "Asian" Prime Minister from 2014 till date. The current PM of India is similar to Lee Kuan Yew/ Deng Xiaoping/ Park Chung-hee. He studied why Asian nations progressed and India did not and implementing what should have been done 40 years ago. He is not much into intellectualizing things. He is more of an engineer type (what is the problem & how to fix it). India's problems have nothing to do with caste system.

    When India became independent in 1947, it went with extremely idealistic constitution and social policies. With a 90% poverty and illiteracy rate, it went with universal franchise democracy. It may fail in implementation but on statue books the laws would fit nicely to a rich Scandinavian nation :-) Women and lower castes were given right to vote on day 1. Backward castes were given reservations in jobs and education from day 1. It did hurt meritocracy but it was seen that social justice was more important than efficiency.

    Similarly because India was colonized by East India company, the first prime minister disdained private companies. He publicly said that he considered "profit" as a bad word. In his view only govt can save poor from rapacious private enterprise. So systematically Indian private enterprise was destroyed. The public sector with its legendary inefficiency and corruption (monopoly!) neither generated wealth nor efficiency. Before reforms in 1991, Indian govt companies made bread and ran hotels (and everything in between)!!

    He was terrified on Military coup as well just like other third world nations. So, British Indian Army which was the best armed forces in all of Asia was systematically weakened by making it subservient to bureaucracy & promoting "loyal" people. But it didn't last long. 1962 defeat jolted him and since then Indian Armed forces are left mostly to professional soldiers (of course under layers of bureaucratic control)

    All of it came crashing down in 1991 economic crisis. That forced India to dismantle "licence raj" and allow private and foreign companies to do business in India.

    But as I mentioned earlier, the path to hell is paved with good intentions. India wanted to protect vulnerable farmers hence created a nightmare laws that will not let him die but also will not let him prosper (land ceiling act/ APMC/ Minimum support price, Not allowing agri land to change for industrial purposes etc).

    Similarly the playing field is massively rigged in favor of labor (to protect him from exploitative private enterprise you see?) This meant that while other asian countries became export powerhouses we go around bragging how we did not let poor exploited by companies. Changing them against labor will have electoral consequences :-)

    There are tonnes of more issues that I may have skipped but bottom line is that after first prime minister, the current PM of India has the most powerful mandate from the people of India. He is not a capitalist of the Anglo-saxon school. Instead just like post war Germany, Japan, Taiwan, South Korea, Singapore he is mostly in favor of Ordoliberalism ==> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordoliberalism

    Whether India will successfully Industrialize or not will be decided in future (On this forum people are already dead sure that India will never become industrial economy since they have sub-human IQ :-) But when we see North Korea vs South Korea, clearly economic policies do matter)

    Replies: @DB Cooper, @Tor597, @Meena, @Not Only Wrathful, @AnonFromTN, @songbird, @Philip Owen, @Escher

    While what you wrote makes sense and appears to be factually correct, it does not explain the facts on the ground. You imply that Indian system had serious flaws from 1947 on, but in 1990, more than 40 years after independence, India was ahead of China. Yet now it’s way behind.

    You also admit that in the last 30 years China elevated more people out of poverty than India. There must be a reason for that.

    Speaking of democracy, universal suffrage when the majority is illiterate and hungry is not democracy, it’s a travesty: form without substance. It’s perfect for corruption, and nothing else.

    I don’t have statistically valid sampling, but based on qualities of Indians and Chinese I interacted with I am sure that IQ has nothing to do with it. Not to mention that IQ test was invented to separate normal people from retards, and that’s the only thing it is good for. I had two Hindu Indian post-docs (and one Indian Muslim, but I wouldn’t count him in). One was dumb, the other moderately intelligent. I collaborated with one Indian post-doc when I was a post-doc, and both she and her husband were fairly smart. I taught two Indian grad students, was on the thesis committee of one of them. Both were intelligent (BTW, one eventually married a Chinese guy). I had four Chinese post-docs, two intelligent, one limited, and one dumb. I also had a very smart Chinese grad student. So, on average (even though averages are uninformative, like an average fever level in a hospital), I see no difference. Cannot blame culture, either – the only common thing in India is Hindu religion, there are many nations, languages, even alphabets in India. So, there must be something in the organization of Indian and Chinese state that explains this difference. And that something gives China an advantage.

    • Replies: @LOLknee
    @AnonFromTN

    The only thing China and India have in common is that they're both ancient civilizations with 1 Billion+ people. They're histories and politics are totally different.

    China is homogeneous, or at least considers themselves to be homogeneous. The Han ethnicity, despite their regional/cultural differences, are viewed as one coherent people. India has a diversity of languages, ethnicities and religions. This goes back long before the modern period. China's political history is that of smaller states eventually uniting into larger states, and of periods of imperial unity (the 5 dynasties) followed by relatively short periods of disunity. India is the opposite. Brief periods of imperial unity (Mauryas, Guptas, Cholas, Mughals, Marathas) with longer periods of small kingdoms warring with one another. In this respect, India is rather similar to Europe. It's a continent, not a country.

    China is a one-party authoritarian state. India is a democracy with multiple political parties representing numerous people with different religions, languages and castes. If India wants to build a factory on a peasant village, the peasants have democratic recourse. They complain to their representatives, and the factory doesn't get built. Good for the peasants, bad for the economy and development. China wants to build a factory on a peasant village and the peasants complain, the peasants are SOL. The factory gets built anyway and the peasants are fucked.

    Replies: @Meena, @Astuteobservor II, @Meena, @AnonFromTN

  246. A123 says:
    June 18, 2020 at 1:27 pm GMT • 100 Words   
    @Not Only Wrathful
    @Daemon

    Manufacturing in the United States is higher than its ever been and is far higher than it was 30 years ago; so it would seem unlikely that making iPhones in the US would be difficult.

    Replies: @A123, @Daemon, @Blinky Bill, @showmethereal

    Manufacturing in the United States is higher than its ever been and is far higher than it was 30 years ago; so it would seem unlikely that making iPhones in the US would be difficult.

    Achieving 100% replacement is achievable but not instantaneous.

    Using increasing tariffs to force realignment over time will re-build capabilities that predators (China) and traitors (SJW multinationals) have more or less wiped out.

    The ‘cold turkey’ zero trade case is not good for the U.S. but much worse for China. If Xi wants that outcome, he can brutally damage his own country.

    PEACE 😇

    • Replies: @AaronB
    @A123

    The United States originally built up its industries behind tarrifs. All successful countries did. China also protects its industries and does not practice free trade, as everyone knows by now.

    Absolute free trade is only preached by countries who are in a position to benefit from it.

    If that's no longer the case for America, then obviously America will no longer practice free trade. It sucks for China because it's entire economy is built on foreign companies using it's cheap labor force and access to foreign markets, but killing the goose that laid the golden egg is an extremely common folly in human history.

    It may take time, but it will happen. It's obviously already speeding up.

    For myself, I'm always suspicious of anything extreme - all extreme positions are utopian ideology and not consistent with reality. Unrestricted free trade is as obviously ideological and inconsistent with reality as a completely closed and planned economy.

    The most successful policy always ends up being a messy half way house between extremes, adjusting and adapting to changing conditions without ideological blinders. That doesn't mean extreme policies are not occasionally called for - just that if one starts believing in them as ideologies (as always applicable), one is no longer adapting to real conditions.

    Replies: @d dan, @A123, @Astuteobservor II

  247. LOLknee says:
    June 18, 2020 at 1:41 pm GMT • 200 Words   
    @AnonFromTN
    @82-IQ H1B Indian

    While what you wrote makes sense and appears to be factually correct, it does not explain the facts on the ground. You imply that Indian system had serious flaws from 1947 on, but in 1990, more than 40 years after independence, India was ahead of China. Yet now it’s way behind.

    You also admit that in the last 30 years China elevated more people out of poverty than India. There must be a reason for that.

    Speaking of democracy, universal suffrage when the majority is illiterate and hungry is not democracy, it’s a travesty: form without substance. It’s perfect for corruption, and nothing else.

    I don’t have statistically valid sampling, but based on qualities of Indians and Chinese I interacted with I am sure that IQ has nothing to do with it. Not to mention that IQ test was invented to separate normal people from retards, and that’s the only thing it is good for. I had two Hindu Indian post-docs (and one Indian Muslim, but I wouldn’t count him in). One was dumb, the other moderately intelligent. I collaborated with one Indian post-doc when I was a post-doc, and both she and her husband were fairly smart. I taught two Indian grad students, was on the thesis committee of one of them. Both were intelligent (BTW, one eventually married a Chinese guy). I had four Chinese post-docs, two intelligent, one limited, and one dumb. I also had a very smart Chinese grad student. So, on average (even though averages are uninformative, like an average fever level in a hospital), I see no difference. Cannot blame culture, either – the only common thing in India is Hindu religion, there are many nations, languages, even alphabets in India. So, there must be something in the organization of Indian and Chinese state that explains this difference. And that something gives China an advantage.

    Replies: @LOLknee

    The only thing China and India have in common is that they’re both ancient civilizations with 1 Billion+ people. They’re histories and politics are totally different.

    China is homogeneous, or at least considers themselves to be homogeneous. The Han ethnicity, despite their regional/cultural differences, are viewed as one coherent people. India has a diversity of languages, ethnicities and religions. This goes back long before the modern period. China’s political history is that of smaller states eventually uniting into larger states, and of periods of imperial unity (the 5 dynasties) followed by relatively short periods of disunity. India is the opposite. Brief periods of imperial unity (Mauryas, Guptas, Cholas, Mughals, Marathas) with longer periods of small kingdoms warring with one another. In this respect, India is rather similar to Europe. It’s a continent, not a country.

    China is a one-party authoritarian state. India is a democracy with multiple political parties representing numerous people with different religions, languages and castes. If India wants to build a factory on a peasant village, the peasants have democratic recourse. They complain to their representatives, and the factory doesn’t get built. Good for the peasants, bad for the economy and development. China wants to build a factory on a peasant village and the peasants complain, the peasants are SOL. The factory gets built anyway and the peasants are fucked.

    • Replies: @Meena
    @LOLknee

    Juxtapose the fact that India's top 10% now hold as much wealth as the bottom 70%, with the fact that India's private companies are almost exclusively upper caste-owned, with just two high caste groups, a small minority of the population, constituting 90% of corporate boards. The richest 1% has four times the wealth of the bottom 70%, in large part via a takeover and monetization of the land, waters, forests and resources that were the lifeblood of those at the bottom end of the caste spectrum. Whichever the party in power, this upward redistribution of wealth has remained uninterrupted. https://www.ndtv.com/opinion/india-s-pandemic-response-is-a-caste-atrocity-2236094?pfrom=home-opinion

    , @Astuteobservor II
    @LOLknee

    I disagree with the ancient civilization part strongly. A country since 1947 is not ancient.

    Replies: @LOLknee

    , @Meena
    @LOLknee

    Hate violence and atrocities at individual level and systemic discrimination racism segregation ( in school temples Government offices ) are rampant in India . Mots of the victims are the u=lower caste or untouchables and Dalits .
    [1] GOI. (2011). Census of India. New Delhi: Office of the Registrar General and Census Commissioner

    [2] NDMJ(NCHDR). (2017). Exclusion in Schools: A Study on Practice of Discrimination and Violence. New Delhi: NCDHR

    [3] NDTV. (2017, March 17). No Mid-Day Meals In Jharkhand Villages, Children Eat Rats, Rabbits. Retrieved December 15, 2019, from NDTV: https://www.ndtv.com/video/news/the-buck-stops-here/no-mid-day-meals-in-jharkhand-villages-children-eat-rats-rabbits-452074

    [4] Centre for Human Rights and Social Justice. (2010). Voices of Children of Manual Scavengers. Gujarat: Navsarjan Trust

    [5] HRW. (2014). They Say We’re Dirty: Denying an Education to India’s Marginalized. USA: Human Rights Watch

    [6] Thorat, S., & Lee, J. (2006). Dalits and the Right to Food –Discrimination and Exclusion in Food related Government Programms. New Delhi: Indian Institute of Dalit Studies

    [7] Mander, H. (2005). Promises to Keep: ICDS at Crossroads. New Delhi: Centre for Equity Studies

    [8] UNICEF. (2014). Global Initiative on Out-of-School Children : South Asia Regional Study. Kathmandu, Nepal: UNICEF

    [9] Srivastava, R. S. (2005). Bonded Labour in India: Its Incidence and Pattern. Geneva: ILO

    [10]UN Women. (2018). Turning Promises into Actions: Gender Equality in the 2030 Agenda for Sustainable Development. UN Women

    [11] IIPS. (2007). National Family Health Survey 2005-06. Mumbai: International Institute of Population Sciences

    [12] Acharya, S. S. (2010). Access to Health Care and Patterns of Discrimination: A Study of Dalit Children in Selected Villages of Gujarat and Rajasthan. New Delhi: Indian Institute of Dalit Studies & UNICEF

    [13] Amnesty International (2019). Key Findings. Retrieved January 10, 2020, from Halt the Hate: http://haltthehate.amnesty.org.in/

    [14] NCRB. (2017). Crime in India 2016. New Delhi: Ministry of Home Affairs

    [15] GOI. (2015). Socio Economic and Caste Census 2011. New Delhi: Ministry of Rural Development

    [16] The Wire Staff. (2018, September 18). Since 2017, One Manual Scavenger Has Died on the Job Every Five Days. Retrieved January 10th, 2020, from thewire.in: https://thewire.in/labour/since-2017-one-manual-scavenger-has-died-on-the-job-every-five-days


    Recently the police ’s communal racial nature has come to the common knowledge

    with the introduction of the internet and you Tube

    Here is one-

    "New Delhi: In Madhya Pradesh’s Betul, an incident which is striking in its example of Islamophobia and police highhandedness has come to light. 
    On March 23, a lawyer Deepak Bundele was beaten up brutally by the state police while he was on his way to a government hospital for treatment. A month later, he is under pressure from the police to withdraw his complaint. Police officials, in their defence, told Bundele that he was beaten up because they had wrongly identified him as a Muslim man.
    Speaking to The Wire, Bundele said that on March 23, between 5.30 and 6 pm, he was on his way to the hospital when he was stopped by the police. “The nationwide lockdown hadn’t come into place then but Section 144 had been imposed in Betul. I have been an acute diabetic and blood pressure patient for the last 15 years. Since I was not feeling well, I decided to visit the hospital and get some medicines. But I was stopped by the police midway.”
    Bundele, who sports a beard, said that he explained to police personnel that he had to get his medicines but one of them slapped him without trying to listen to what he was saying.  “I told them that they should act within constitutional limits, and that I was ready to be detained under Section 188 of the Indian Penal Code if the police thought so. On hearing this, the police personnel lost their temper, and started abusing me and the Indian constitution. Within no time, many police officials came and started beating me up with sticks,” Bundele said. 
    Only after he said he was a lawyer and would take them to task did they stop beating him, he said. “But by that time my ear had started bleeding profusely,” Bundele alleged.  https://thewire.in/communalism/madhya-pradesh-lawyer-police-betul

    "We are truly embarrassed because of the incident. If you want I can bring those officials and make them apologise in person to you," the officials are heard saying in the recording published by The Wire. All those people are ashamed that they did something like this to a Hindu brother without knowing his identity... We do not have any enmity against you. Whenever there is a Hindu-Muslim riot, police always supportsthe Hindus; even Muslims know this. But whatever happened with you was because of ignorance," the officials continued.

Bundele then asks if he was beaten because the officers thought he was a Muslim.

"Yes, exactly. You had a long beard. The man [who assaulted you] is a staunch Hindu… In Hindu-Muslim riots whenever a Muslim is arrested, he beats them up brutally, always," the officials answered.

Bundele has refused to withdraw his complaint. https://english.alaraby.co.uk/english/news/2020/5/20/indian-police-beat-man-thinking-he-was-muslim

    , @AnonFromTN
    @LOLknee


    China is homogeneous, or at least considers themselves to be homogeneous.
     
    First, a disclaimer: I don’t speak Mandarin or any other form of Chinese, I only know a few words. So, my info is not exactly first-hand. To the best of my knowledge, China is quite heterogenous. They use the same writing (Japanese use the same hieroglyphs, so I am told that Chinese understand written Japanese, but the language is different), but from what I know the language variants Chinese call dialects are as different as European languages. I once interviewed a prospective Chinese post-doc, who was from the South near Shanghai, and I told my current at the time Chinese post-doc that the guy makes good impression scientifically, but has a horrible accent in English. She told me that his accent in Mandarin is just as horrible (she was from Xinjian and spoke Mandarin). I hired him, and was right: he was smart and productive, now he is an Assistant Professor in one of the US universities. His English improved a lot. Cannot evaluate his Mandarin. The cuisine of Northern China differs from Sichuan cuisine a lot more than Russian from Ukrainian (I visited China twice, so I am aware that what is called Chinese cuisine in the US is the cuisine of Chinese Moslems, not the Han cuisine, which is a lot better, at least its Northern variety).

    But you are right about history: China existed as a unified state with few interruptions for 2,000+ years, whereas what we call India today was created by British Raj. Chinese consider breakup of the country a catastrophe, whereas quite a few Indians consider unified country a catastrophe. Genetic analysis shows that China functions as a huge gene pool, whereas India functions as many small gene pools. I know that when an Indian post-doc I worked with ~30 years ago refused to marry someone her parents found in India, and married an Indian guy she met in the States, her parents boycotted her, as he was from wrong tribe or caste. They only accepted the reality when she had a child. To me both of them looked the same, usual Indians, but they apparently thought differently.

    So, yes, psychologically Chinese see themselves as one nation, whereas Indians see themselves as a collection of many distinct tribes and different castes. I saw with my own eyes that Tamils look down on Bengalis with more disdain than Russians look at Chukchi. This promotes tribal nepotism and likely impedes the development more than anything else.

    Replies: @82-IQ H1B Indian

  248. @Anatoly Karlin
    @AnonFromTN


    I know only one big difference: Chinese are essentially irreligious, whereas the majority of Indians are Hindu with caste system.
     
    Explains how 1950s US was such a Third World shithole.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

    I am not saying that religion is always bad, but sincere fervent religiosity is a huge impediment. Just compare Medieval Europe to the twentieth century. Or look at the Islamic world: the least religious (say, Turkey) are doing OK, whereas rabidly religious become Taliban or ISIS, or, in a less toxic incarnation, Muslim Brotherhood.

    American religiosity is peculiar. Americans do everything Christian dogma abhors and considers sinful six days a week, and then go to church on Sunday and consider themselves Christians. This kind of mock religiosity does not impede progress, its pure form without substance.

    • Replies: @Meena
    @AnonFromTN

    Taliban or ISIS, or, in a less toxic incarnation, Muslim Brotherhood.

    American religiosity i.... and consider themselves Christians. This kind of mock religiosity does not impede progress...”.

    What Taliban does or ISIS does ,is done by the Government of USA ,France UK and are being done for decades . Christian religion doesn’t have to do that .Its taken care of . Sometimes in dire needs ,these religious organizations become very vocal like agents Iran , during Iraq war of 2003 ,against Venejuala’s Chavez and throughout the cold war when Soviet were called “Godless or Satan” by the political parties and by the religious group .

    Anti Christ was Saddam , was Arafat was Ahmednezad was Soviet leaders and lately is Putin . Religion pervades and permeates American narrative . From Regan to Boykin to Falwell or Robinson - all offer various shades of terror and supporting narrative .

  249. Meena says:
    June 18, 2020 at 1:48 pm GMT • 100 Words   
    @LOLknee
    @AnonFromTN

    The only thing China and India have in common is that they're both ancient civilizations with 1 Billion+ people. They're histories and politics are totally different.

    China is homogeneous, or at least considers themselves to be homogeneous. The Han ethnicity, despite their regional/cultural differences, are viewed as one coherent people. India has a diversity of languages, ethnicities and religions. This goes back long before the modern period. China's political history is that of smaller states eventually uniting into larger states, and of periods of imperial unity (the 5 dynasties) followed by relatively short periods of disunity. India is the opposite. Brief periods of imperial unity (Mauryas, Guptas, Cholas, Mughals, Marathas) with longer periods of small kingdoms warring with one another. In this respect, India is rather similar to Europe. It's a continent, not a country.

    China is a one-party authoritarian state. India is a democracy with multiple political parties representing numerous people with different religions, languages and castes. If India wants to build a factory on a peasant village, the peasants have democratic recourse. They complain to their representatives, and the factory doesn't get built. Good for the peasants, bad for the economy and development. China wants to build a factory on a peasant village and the peasants complain, the peasants are SOL. The factory gets built anyway and the peasants are fucked.

    Replies: @Meena, @Astuteobservor II, @Meena, @AnonFromTN

    Juxtapose the fact that India’s top 10% now hold as much wealth as the bottom 70%, with the fact that India’s private companies are almost exclusively upper caste-owned, with just two high caste groups, a small minority of the population, constituting 90% of corporate boards. The richest 1% has four times the wealth of the bottom 70%, in large part via a takeover and monetization of the land, waters, forests and resources that were the lifeblood of those at the bottom end of the caste spectrum. Whichever the party in power, this upward redistribution of wealth has remained uninterrupted. https://www.ndtv.com/opinion/india-s-pandemic-response-is-a-caste-atrocity-2236094?pfrom=home-opinion

  250. @Not Only Wrathful
    @Daniel Chieh

    You're obviously wrong, but, as I said, if you want to claim a victory, then let me wish you hundreds more similar victories...

    As for the US, which I am not from, I agree absolutely that the ruling class, and those directly supporting them, are also poor at self-reflection.

    Their lack of such is more subtle than the Chinese one; which consists of simply "hurr durr I am the best and question me at your peril." It also requires much more strength.

    The contemporary US way is thus the opposite of the Chinese way, in that it is a lack of self-reflection which delights in pretending otherwise. It is "I am so bad, I am so terrible, my history is awful, I must be highly self-reflective (see how self-sacrificing I can be, and therefore how strong!)" It is late adolescent rather than infantile.

    Regardless, for both, the reward is blind smugness, even as they are possibly necessary steps along the same path to something more complete.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @AaronB

    Good insights.

    Rare on Unz.

    • Thanks: Not Only Wrathful
  251. Daemon says:
    June 18, 2020 at 1:53 pm GMT • 100 Words   
    @Not Only Wrathful
    @Daemon

    Manufacturing in the United States is higher than its ever been and is far higher than it was 30 years ago; so it would seem unlikely that making iPhones in the US would be difficult.

    Replies: @A123, @Daemon, @Blinky Bill, @showmethereal

    Manufacturing in the United States is higher than its ever been but the percentage of the population engaged in manufacturing as paid employment has never been lower. Makes sense that in order to make in america, you need to get rid of americans. Also, unless you have full front-to-back control of the supply chain like China does, you will still face increased operating costs in the form of externalities like tariffs, supply chain inefficiencies not to mention expensive overhead like OSHA, EPA etc etc. Automation will give you an edge, but labor costs are only one side of the equation.

    If you think that all it takes is for Trump to wave his hand to decouple the two countries and take the clock back to 1970 and everyone will ‘get their jerbs back’, think again. That ship has unfortunately sailed.

    • Replies: @Not Only Wrathful
    @Daemon

    Fewer Americans do more manufacturing than they used to.

    That's hardly an indictment of the current quality of American labour or the regulatory system.

    Both could be much, much more productive, but we don't need to pretend that everything is awful simply because we wish for things to be better.

  252. @Daniel Chieh
    @Not Only Wrathful

    People like you encourage me to abandon all effortposting to simply indulge into full trolling. Thank you for helping me realize the Internet's true purpose.

    Replies: @Astuteobservor II

    Finally. No more serious replies to trolls. Good for you. Don’t feed the trolls.

    • Troll: AaronB
  253. Meena says:
    June 18, 2020 at 1:56 pm GMT • 100 Words   
    @AnonFromTN
    @Anatoly Karlin

    I am not saying that religion is always bad, but sincere fervent religiosity is a huge impediment. Just compare Medieval Europe to the twentieth century. Or look at the Islamic world: the least religious (say, Turkey) are doing OK, whereas rabidly religious become Taliban or ISIS, or, in a less toxic incarnation, Muslim Brotherhood.

    American religiosity is peculiar. Americans do everything Christian dogma abhors and considers sinful six days a week, and then go to church on Sunday and consider themselves Christians. This kind of mock religiosity does not impede progress, its pure form without substance.

    Replies: @Meena

    Taliban or ISIS, or, in a less toxic incarnation, Muslim Brotherhood.

    American religiosity i…. and consider themselves Christians. This kind of mock religiosity does not impede progress…”.

    What Taliban does or ISIS does ,is done by the Government of USA ,France UK and are being done for decades . Christian religion doesn’t have to do that .Its taken care of . Sometimes in dire needs ,these religious organizations become very vocal like agents Iran , during Iraq war of 2003 ,against Venejuala’s Chavez and throughout the cold war when Soviet were called “Godless or Satan” by the political parties and by the religious group .

    Anti Christ was Saddam , was Arafat was Ahmednezad was Soviet leaders and lately is Putin . Religion pervades and permeates American narrative . From Regan to Boykin to Falwell or Robinson – all offer various shades of terror and supporting narrative .

  254. @LOLknee
    @AnonFromTN

    The only thing China and India have in common is that they're both ancient civilizations with 1 Billion+ people. They're histories and politics are totally different.

    China is homogeneous, or at least considers themselves to be homogeneous. The Han ethnicity, despite their regional/cultural differences, are viewed as one coherent people. India has a diversity of languages, ethnicities and religions. This goes back long before the modern period. China's political history is that of smaller states eventually uniting into larger states, and of periods of imperial unity (the 5 dynasties) followed by relatively short periods of disunity. India is the opposite. Brief periods of imperial unity (Mauryas, Guptas, Cholas, Mughals, Marathas) with longer periods of small kingdoms warring with one another. In this respect, India is rather similar to Europe. It's a continent, not a country.

    China is a one-party authoritarian state. India is a democracy with multiple political parties representing numerous people with different religions, languages and castes. If India wants to build a factory on a peasant village, the peasants have democratic recourse. They complain to their representatives, and the factory doesn't get built. Good for the peasants, bad for the economy and development. China wants to build a factory on a peasant village and the peasants complain, the peasants are SOL. The factory gets built anyway and the peasants are fucked.

    Replies: @Meena, @Astuteobservor II, @Meena, @AnonFromTN

    I disagree with the ancient civilization part strongly. A country since 1947 is not ancient.

    • Replies: @LOLknee
    @Astuteobservor II

    India as a country has existed since 1947. India as a civilization has existed since at least 1500 BC. Since 3300 BC if you consider the Indus Valley civilization.

    Replies: @Astuteobservor II

  255. AaronB says:
    June 18, 2020 at 2:01 pm GMT • 200 Words   
    @A123
    @Not Only Wrathful


    Manufacturing in the United States is higher than its ever been and is far higher than it was 30 years ago; so it would seem unlikely that making iPhones in the US would be difficult.
     
    Achieving 100% replacement is achievable but not instantaneous.

    Using increasing tariffs to force realignment over time will re-build capabilities that predators (China) and traitors (SJW multinationals) have more or less wiped out.

    The 'cold turkey' zero trade case is not good for the U.S. but much worse for China. If Xi wants that outcome, he can brutally damage his own country.

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @AaronB

    The United States originally built up its industries behind tarrifs. All successful countries did. China also protects its industries and does not practice free trade, as everyone knows by now.

    Absolute free trade is only preached by countries who are in a position to benefit from it.

    If that’s no longer the case for America, then obviously America will no longer practice free trade. It sucks for China because it’s entire economy is built on foreign companies using it’s cheap labor force and access to foreign markets, but killing the goose that laid the golden egg is an extremely common folly in human history.

    It may take time, but it will happen. It’s obviously already speeding up.

    For myself, I’m always suspicious of anything extreme – all extreme positions are utopian ideology and not consistent with reality. Unrestricted free trade is as obviously ideological and inconsistent with reality as a completely closed and planned economy.

    The most successful policy always ends up being a messy half way house between extremes, adjusting and adapting to changing conditions without ideological blinders. That doesn’t mean extreme policies are not occasionally called for – just that if one starts believing in them as ideologies (as always applicable), one is no longer adapting to real conditions.

    • Replies: @d dan
    @AaronB


    "Absolute free trade is only preached by countries,..."
     
    LOL, this shows how "principled" you are for the Taoism/libertarian ideal....

    "It sucks for China because it’s entire economy is built on foreign companies using it’s cheap labor force and access to foreign markets, but killing the goose that laid the golden egg is an extremely common folly in human history."
     
    Quite frankly, I have little motivation to even point up the stupidity of your comment like this statement - I am posting this comment mainly to laugh at your hypocrisy and to expose your true color.

    Hahahahahahah.

    Replies: @AaronB, @lin

    , @A123
    @AaronB


    The United States originally built up its industries behind tarrifs. All successful countries did. China also protects its industries and does not practice free trade, as everyone knows by now.

    Absolute free trade is only preached by countries who are in a position to benefit from it.

     

    We have a similar conclusion, but I am have some significant differences with your process.

    I do not think that 'absolutely free trade' can benefit any country. It is part of the SJW Globalist play book to diminish nations. The SJW Globalist assault on the U.S. was particularly egregious, as it resulted in obviously unfair and unequal trade. The U.S. needs to bring tariffs back at "above equal" levels for a few decades repair the damage done by SJW Corporate Globalism.

    It sucks for China because it’s entire economy is built on foreign companies using it’s cheap labor force and access to foreign markets, but killing the goose that laid the golden egg is an extremely common folly in human history.
     
    China, as the main exploiter of SJW Globalist corporate policy, is #1 in line to be hit as Populism replaces Globalism. State Owned Enterprises [SOE's] are highly inefficient and need an 'exploitation advantage' to stay in business. They will have to find new victims or reform. Certainly tough times ahead for China. Financially pressured SOE's will default resulting in bank failures.

    It may take time, but it will happen. It’s obviously already speeding up.
     
    Yes. The process is not instant, but if the U.S. commits to rebuilding industry damaged by the SJW/China Axis, it can do so in an economically competitive manner.

    Ending Chinese Exploitation is only the first step. Some significant tariffs will help U.S. industry, and hopefully start to balance the U.S. Budget again. Apple may be able to duck income taxes. They will find it much harder to duck tariffs applied to imported iPhone components.

    PEACE 😇
    , @Astuteobservor II
    @AaronB

    Oh look, another Zionist troll coming to help a fellow worker.

    Good on you.

  256. @Astuteobservor II
    @LOLknee

    I disagree with the ancient civilization part strongly. A country since 1947 is not ancient.

    Replies: @LOLknee

    India as a country has existed since 1947. India as a civilization has existed since at least 1500 BC. Since 3300 BC if you consider the Indus Valley civilization.

    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
    @LOLknee

    Sorry, there was never any Indian civilization. All were empires formed by outside invaders. The earliest I am aware of of that type is the one formed by the mongols. If you want to count that. The last being the British Raj.

    Replies: @LOLknee

  257. Meena says:
    June 18, 2020 at 2:18 pm GMT • 300 Words   
    @LOLknee
    @AnonFromTN

    The only thing China and India have in common is that they're both ancient civilizations with 1 Billion+ people. They're histories and politics are totally different.

    China is homogeneous, or at least considers themselves to be homogeneous. The Han ethnicity, despite their regional/cultural differences, are viewed as one coherent people. India has a diversity of languages, ethnicities and religions. This goes back long before the modern period. China's political history is that of smaller states eventually uniting into larger states, and of periods of imperial unity (the 5 dynasties) followed by relatively short periods of disunity. India is the opposite. Brief periods of imperial unity (Mauryas, Guptas, Cholas, Mughals, Marathas) with longer periods of small kingdoms warring with one another. In this respect, India is rather similar to Europe. It's a continent, not a country.

    China is a one-party authoritarian state. India is a democracy with multiple political parties representing numerous people with different religions, languages and castes. If India wants to build a factory on a peasant village, the peasants have democratic recourse. They complain to their representatives, and the factory doesn't get built. Good for the peasants, bad for the economy and development. China wants to build a factory on a peasant village and the peasants complain, the peasants are SOL. The factory gets built anyway and the peasants are fucked.

    Replies: @Meena, @Astuteobservor II, @Meena, @AnonFromTN

    Hate violence and atrocities at individual level and systemic discrimination racism segregation ( in school temples Government offices ) are rampant in India . Mots of the victims are the u=lower caste or untouchables and Dalits .
    [1] GOI. (2011). Census of India. New Delhi: Office of the Registrar General and Census Commissioner

    [2] NDMJ(NCHDR). (2017). Exclusion in Schools: A Study on Practice of Discrimination and Violence. New Delhi: NCDHR

    [3] NDTV. (2017, March 17). No Mid-Day Meals In Jharkhand Villages, Children Eat Rats, Rabbits. Retrieved December 15, 2019, from NDTV: https://www.ndtv.com/video/news/the-buck-stops-here/no-mid-day-meals-in-jharkhand-villages-children-eat-rats-rabbits-452074

    [4] Centre for Human Rights and Social Justice. (2010). Voices of Children of Manual Scavengers. Gujarat: Navsarjan Trust

    [5] HRW. (2014). They Say We’re Dirty: Denying an Education to India’s Marginalized. USA: Human Rights Watch

    [6] Thorat, S., & Lee, J. (2006). Dalits and the Right to Food –Discrimination and Exclusion in Food related Government Programms. New Delhi: Indian Institute of Dalit Studies

    [7] Mander, H. (2005). Promises to Keep: ICDS at Crossroads. New Delhi: Centre for Equity Studies

    [8] UNICEF. (2014). Global Initiative on Out-of-School Children : South Asia Regional Study. Kathmandu, Nepal: UNICEF

    [9] Srivastava, R. S. (2005). Bonded Labour in India: Its Incidence and Pattern. Geneva: ILO

    [10]UN Women. (2018). Turning Promises into Actions: Gender Equality in the 2030 Agenda for Sustainable Development. UN Women

    [11] IIPS. (2007). National Family Health Survey 2005-06. Mumbai: International Institute of Population Sciences

    [12] Acharya, S. S. (2010). Access to Health Care and Patterns of Discrimination: A Study of Dalit Children in Selected Villages of Gujarat and Rajasthan. New Delhi: Indian Institute of Dalit Studies & UNICEF

    [13] Amnesty International (2019). Key Findings. Retrieved January 10, 2020, from Halt the Hate: http://haltthehate.amnesty.org.in/

    [14] NCRB. (2017). Crime in India 2016. New Delhi: Ministry of Home Affairs

    [15] GOI. (2015). Socio Economic and Caste Census 2011. New Delhi: Ministry of Rural Development

    [16] The Wire Staff. (2018, September 18). Since 2017, One Manual Scavenger Has Died on the Job Every Five Days. Retrieved January 10th, 2020, from thewire.in: https://thewire.in/labour/since-2017-one-manual-scavenger-has-died-on-the-job-every-five-days

    Recently the police ’s communal racial nature has come to the common knowledge

    with the introduction of the internet and you Tube

    Here is one-

    “New Delhi: In Madhya Pradesh’s Betul, an incident which is striking in its example of Islamophobia and police highhandedness has come to light. 
    On March 23, a lawyer Deepak Bundele was beaten up brutally by the state police while he was on his way to a government hospital for treatment. A month later, he is under pressure from the police to withdraw his complaint. Police officials, in their defence, told Bundele that he was beaten up because they had wrongly identified him as a Muslim man.
    Speaking to The Wire, Bundele said that on March 23, between 5.30 and 6 pm, he was on his way to the hospital when he was stopped by the police. “The nationwide lockdown hadn’t come into place then but Section 144 had been imposed in Betul. I have been an acute diabetic and blood pressure patient for the last 15 years. Since I was not feeling well, I decided to visit the hospital and get some medicines. But I was stopped by the police midway.”
    Bundele, who sports a beard, said that he explained to police personnel that he had to get his medicines but one of them slapped him without trying to listen to what he was saying.  “I told them that they should act within constitutional limits, and that I was ready to be detained under Section 188 of the Indian Penal Code if the police thought so. On hearing this, the police personnel lost their temper, and started abusing me and the Indian constitution. Within no time, many police officials came and started beating me up with sticks,” Bundele said. 
    Only after he said he was a lawyer and would take them to task did they stop beating him, he said. “But by that time my ear had started bleeding profusely,” Bundele alleged.  https://thewire.in/communalism/madhya-pradesh-lawyer-police-betul

    “We are truly embarrassed because of the incident. If you want I can bring those officials and make them apologise in person to you,” the officials are heard saying in the recording published by The Wire. All those people are ashamed that they did something like this to a Hindu brother without knowing his identity… We do not have any enmity against you. Whenever there is a Hindu-Muslim riot, police always supportsthe Hindus; even Muslims know this. But whatever happened with you was because of ignorance,” the officials continued.

Bundele then asks if he was beaten because the officers thought he was a Muslim.

”Yes, exactly. You had a long beard. The man [who assaulted you] is a staunch Hindu… In Hindu-Muslim riots whenever a Muslim is arrested, he beats them up brutally, always,” the officials answered.

Bundele has refused to withdraw his complaint. https://english.alaraby.co.uk/english/news/2020/5/20/indian-police-beat-man-thinking-he-was-muslim

  258. @LOLknee
    @Astuteobservor II

    India as a country has existed since 1947. India as a civilization has existed since at least 1500 BC. Since 3300 BC if you consider the Indus Valley civilization.

    Replies: @Astuteobservor II

    Sorry, there was never any Indian civilization. All were empires formed by outside invaders. The earliest I am aware of of that type is the one formed by the mongols. If you want to count that. The last being the British Raj.

    • Replies: @LOLknee
    @Astuteobservor II

    Are you a troll, or just plain stupid?

    India has been recognized as a coherent civilization for thousands of years. The limits of "Bharatavarsha" have been delineated for at least as long as the Ramayana, which dates back to at least the mid 1st century B.C., though the story itself probably existed long before that. (And before anyone says otherwise, no I am not saying that the events of the Indian epics actually happened. But certainly, like the Greek epics, at least elements of the stories are influenced by actual historical events, and the geography is accurate.) The Persians recognized the land beyond the Indus River as "Hind." The Chinese recognized the civilization beyond the Himalayas by many names. The Indus Valley civilization was one of the world's first three civilizations, along with Mesopotamia and Egypt, and expanded over a larger territory than the other two.

    Replies: @Astuteobservor II

  259. @Not Only Wrathful
    @Daniel Chieh

    Cambodia is still ruled by the Vietnamese imposed dictator...

    China also got none of what it set out to do and Vietnam adequately defended itself.

    Regardless, if you want to call the alienation of a bordering country, and others, along with a total strategic failure, somehow a victory because of..."tactical", be my guest.

    It just reinforces to me how talking with so many Chinese about China is like walking on egg shells.

    The Chinese person thinks this makes them strong, as other people feel the need to step extremely carefully; but the Chinese need to do the same egg shell walk internally, as that's the sacrifice of being fragile, and so are incapable of accurate self-reflection.

    So, yes, China are very wise and the Chinese invasion of Vietnam was a success. May the CCP have many more such successes!

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @Blinky Bill, @d dan

    Cambodia is still ruled by the Vietnamese imposed dictator…

    That’s the equivalent of saying Vietnam is still ruled by a Chinese imposed regime…

    A lot of water has passed under the bridge since then.

    • Replies: @Menes
    @Blinky Bill

    Nice pic.

    This is the best picture of Mao that I have seen. He looks almost unrecognizable.

    Replies: @Blinky Bill

  260. @LOLknee
    @AnonFromTN

    The only thing China and India have in common is that they're both ancient civilizations with 1 Billion+ people. They're histories and politics are totally different.

    China is homogeneous, or at least considers themselves to be homogeneous. The Han ethnicity, despite their regional/cultural differences, are viewed as one coherent people. India has a diversity of languages, ethnicities and religions. This goes back long before the modern period. China's political history is that of smaller states eventually uniting into larger states, and of periods of imperial unity (the 5 dynasties) followed by relatively short periods of disunity. India is the opposite. Brief periods of imperial unity (Mauryas, Guptas, Cholas, Mughals, Marathas) with longer periods of small kingdoms warring with one another. In this respect, India is rather similar to Europe. It's a continent, not a country.

    China is a one-party authoritarian state. India is a democracy with multiple political parties representing numerous people with different religions, languages and castes. If India wants to build a factory on a peasant village, the peasants have democratic recourse. They complain to their representatives, and the factory doesn't get built. Good for the peasants, bad for the economy and development. China wants to build a factory on a peasant village and the peasants complain, the peasants are SOL. The factory gets built anyway and the peasants are fucked.

    Replies: @Meena, @Astuteobservor II, @Meena, @AnonFromTN

    China is homogeneous, or at least considers themselves to be homogeneous.

    First, a disclaimer: I don’t speak Mandarin or any other form of Chinese, I only know a few words. So, my info is not exactly first-hand. To the best of my knowledge, China is quite heterogenous. They use the same writing (Japanese use the same hieroglyphs, so I am told that Chinese understand written Japanese, but the language is different), but from what I know the language variants Chinese call dialects are as different as European languages. I once interviewed a prospective Chinese post-doc, who was from the South near Shanghai, and I told my current at the time Chinese post-doc that the guy makes good impression scientifically, but has a horrible accent in English. She told me that his accent in Mandarin is just as horrible (she was from Xinjian and spoke Mandarin). I hired him, and was right: he was smart and productive, now he is an Assistant Professor in one of the US universities. His English improved a lot. Cannot evaluate his Mandarin. The cuisine of Northern China differs from Sichuan cuisine a lot more than Russian from Ukrainian (I visited China twice, so I am aware that what is called Chinese cuisine in the US is the cuisine of Chinese Moslems, not the Han cuisine, which is a lot better, at least its Northern variety).

    But you are right about history: China existed as a unified state with few interruptions for 2,000+ years, whereas what we call India today was created by British Raj. Chinese consider breakup of the country a catastrophe, whereas quite a few Indians consider unified country a catastrophe. Genetic analysis shows that China functions as a huge gene pool, whereas India functions as many small gene pools. I know that when an Indian post-doc I worked with ~30 years ago refused to marry someone her parents found in India, and married an Indian guy she met in the States, her parents boycotted her, as he was from wrong tribe or caste. They only accepted the reality when she had a child. To me both of them looked the same, usual Indians, but they apparently thought differently.

    So, yes, psychologically Chinese see themselves as one nation, whereas Indians see themselves as a collection of many distinct tribes and different castes. I saw with my own eyes that Tamils look down on Bengalis with more disdain than Russians look at Chukchi. This promotes tribal nepotism and likely impedes the development more than anything else.

    • Replies: @82-IQ H1B Indian
    @AnonFromTN

    I would suggest you to go through this ==> http://sankrant.org/2003/10/why-india-is-a-nation/

    Megasthenes travelled to India and wrote a book called Indica before Christ was born.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indica_(Megasthenes)


    India is a quadrilateral-shaped country, bounded by the ocean on the southern and the eastern side.[6] The Indus river forms the western and the north-western boundary of the country, as far as the ocean.[7] India's northern border reaches the extremities of Tauros. From Ariana to the Eastern Sea, it is bound by mountains that are called Kaukasos by the Macedonians. The various native names for these mountains include Parapamisos, Hemodos and Himaos (the Himalayas).[8] Beyond Hemodos, lies Scythia inhabited by the Scythians known as Sakai.[9] Besides Scythia, the countries of Bactria and Ariana border India.[10]

    India has many large and navigable rivers, which arise in the mountains on its northern border. Many of these rivers merge into Ganges, which is 30 stadia wide at its source, and runs from north to south. The Ganges empties into the ocean that forms the eastern boundary of Gangaridai.[11] Other nations feared Gangaridai's huge force of the biggest elephants, and therefore, Gangaridai had never been conquered by any foreign king.[12]


     


    Indus also runs from north to south, and has several navigable tributaries. The most notable tributaries are Hupanis, the Hudaspes, and the Akesines.[13] One peculiar river is Sillas, which originates from a fountain of the same name. Everything cast into this river sinks down to the bottom - nothing floats in it.[10] In addition, there are a large number of other rivers, supplying abundant water for agriculture. According to the native philosophers and natural scientists, the reason for this is that the bordering countries are more elevated than India, so their waters run down to India, resulting in such a large number of rivers.[14]
     
    Indian civilization is one of the oldest in world which inhabited current Indian territory for thousands of years. Nation-state came into existence in 1947.

    ==============

    But there is something very puzzling about China. When we check the list of most deaths in wars/conflicts, its amazing how often China shows up https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_and_anthropogenic_disasters_by_death_toll

    Like a clockwork. Couple of centuries of stability and then boom 5-10% of population dead in conflicts. For such a high IQ civilization who prefer order and continuity, they seem to be incapable of orderly transitions.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN, @BS

  261. @Daemon
    @Not Only Wrathful

    Manufacturing in the United States is higher than its ever been but the percentage of the population engaged in manufacturing as paid employment has never been lower. Makes sense that in order to make in america, you need to get rid of americans. Also, unless you have full front-to-back control of the supply chain like China does, you will still face increased operating costs in the form of externalities like tariffs, supply chain inefficiencies not to mention expensive overhead like OSHA, EPA etc etc. Automation will give you an edge, but labor costs are only one side of the equation.

    If you think that all it takes is for Trump to wave his hand to decouple the two countries and take the clock back to 1970 and everyone will 'get their jerbs back', think again. That ship has unfortunately sailed.

    Replies: @Not Only Wrathful

    Fewer Americans do more manufacturing than they used to.

    That’s hardly an indictment of the current quality of American labour or the regulatory system.

    Both could be much, much more productive, but we don’t need to pretend that everything is awful simply because we wish for things to be better.

  262. @Passerby60
    @china-russia-all-the-way

    That was the timeline given by Indian sources, so take it with a pinch of salt.

    As Dennis Etler wrote:

    The responses of India and China to the border conflict are very telling, and it shows which side is most likely responsible.

    India is using the conflict to whip up nationalist fervor with news reports inveighing against Chinese aggression. This is the standard playbook for a nation in crisis, It is a distraction from India's intractable problems exacerbated by the COVID-19 pandemic and a failing economy. It is also using the conflict to get US backing for its fascistic Hindutva government which is oppressing Muslims in Kasmir-Jamma and Assam.

    China, on the other hand, is downplaying the conflict in its media, and preventing xenophobic sentiments from proliferating on the internet. China wants to resolve the conflict by consultations with India, while India's Modi says its soldiers will "not die in vain."

    These differing responses show that India is using the conflict to push its own domestic and foreign agendas while China wants to dampen down and resolve it.

    It should be clear which side has ulterior motives.

    Replies: @82-IQ H1B Indian, @eastkekiisawhiteguy

    Take anything on indian news media with a grain of salt, everything on their news is a carbon copy of what fox or trump or cnn put on blast ,they dont know much about china so they have to depend on the american news,the indian news media coverage of corona virus is identical to americans nothing is original.

    • Agree: showmethereal
    • Replies: @showmethereal
    @eastkekiisawhiteguy

    It wouldn't be the least bit surprising if Indian media got PSYOPS training from US intelligence agencies.

  263. LOLknee says:
    June 18, 2020 at 2:43 pm GMT • 100 Words   
    @Astuteobservor II
    @LOLknee

    Sorry, there was never any Indian civilization. All were empires formed by outside invaders. The earliest I am aware of of that type is the one formed by the mongols. If you want to count that. The last being the British Raj.

    Replies: @LOLknee

    Are you a troll, or just plain stupid?

    India has been recognized as a coherent civilization for thousands of years. The limits of “Bharatavarsha” have been delineated for at least as long as the Ramayana, which dates back to at least the mid 1st century B.C., though the story itself probably existed long before that. (And before anyone says otherwise, no I am not saying that the events of the Indian epics actually happened. But certainly, like the Greek epics, at least elements of the stories are influenced by actual historical events, and the geography is accurate.) The Persians recognized the land beyond the Indus River as “Hind.” The Chinese recognized the civilization beyond the Himalayas by many names. The Indus Valley civilization was one of the world’s first three civilizations, along with Mesopotamia and Egypt, and expanded over a larger territory than the other two.

    • Thanks: 82-IQ H1B Indian
    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
    @LOLknee

    No, I am serious. I never troll the non troll anons. And please stay civil or I will also become very, very uncivil. I am not those nice Chinese anons.

    If we go by your definition, there would be a European civilization for thousands of years too. I hope you understand the point I am making by this sentence.

    Replies: @LOLknee

  264. @Not Only Wrathful
    @Daemon

    Manufacturing in the United States is higher than its ever been and is far higher than it was 30 years ago; so it would seem unlikely that making iPhones in the US would be difficult.

    Replies: @A123, @Daemon, @Blinky Bill, @showmethereal

    “In the U.S., you could have a meeting of tooling engineers and I’m not sure we could fill the room,” he said. “In China, you could fill multiple football fields.”

    Party Secretary Timothy D. Cook.

    Article by the Mouth piece of the CCP.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/28/technology/iphones-apple-china-made.html

    • Replies: @Not Only Wrathful
    @Blinky Bill

    Nice, also:

    American women are owned by men exactly like in the Handmaid's Tale.

    Gay Americans live in continual fear because of homophobic evangelical mobs that hate them and frequently burn them.

    Black Americans are systematically barred from all jobs and opportunities.

    Jews are ruthlessly discriminated against and can barely enter prestigious organisations.

    America has had a totally ineffective and failed foreign policy (even though it has somehow come to dominate the globe.)

    The American political system is extremely unstable (despite operating as it does for longer than most countries have existed.)

    American manufacturing is dead (even if more is manufactured there than ever.)

    And it goes on and on...

    These criticisms serve a purpose, but one must surely notice a pattern of falsehood by extreme exaggeration.

    And one might see how that falsehood would actually flatter the American ego?

    Meanwhile, China is a utopia with a perfect foreign policy record, perfect intelligence, perfect social harmony and its only vice is being too good.

    As I said, these are two personas. One late adolescent and one infantile.

  265. Tor597 says:
    June 18, 2020 at 2:48 pm GMT • 100 Words   
    @LOLknee
    @Tor597

    Richard Lynn's numbers are fraudulent. David Becker's are no better. You can keep spouting these numbers if they make you feel better, but a lie is a lie.

    Where's the innovation coming out of supposedly "high-IQ" Poland and Hungary? Where are the Slavic tigers?

    Replies: @Tor597

    The IQ numbers are accurate.

    There is a lot that goes into producing economic activity and innovation besides IQ. Keep in mind that China was as poor as Africa despite having a much higher IQ.

    And North Koreans are much smarter than Africans despite having a lower living standard.

    Communism, high taxation, poor monetary policy, high tarrifs, no rule of law work against a population where even if they are smart they will never succeed.

    With India, the caste system has polarized the IQ distribution amongst its population producing a small amount of very smart people and a large amount of low iq people.

    • Replies: @LOLknee
    @Tor597

    Bro, it's harder to find something Richard Lynn hasn't lied about than what he *has* lied about.

    http://community.bowdoin.edu/news/2017/09/bowdoins-maceachern-on-fast-science-and-the-myth-of-african-national-iq/

    https://racialreality.blogspot.com/2010/03/richard-lynn-on-italian-iq.html

    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2006/09/more-massaged-data-from-richard-lynn.html

    There's also zero evidence that castes have different IQs that are genetically determined. Brahmins and "upper castes" are more advanced because they tend to have histories of literacy whereas other castes don't.

    , @LOLknee
    @Tor597

    Are you not aware of all the fudging /fabrication of data Richard Lynn has done over the years?

    A handful of examples:

    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2006/09/more-massaged-data-from-richard-lynn.html

    https://racialreality.blogspot.com/2010/03/richard-lynn-on-italian-iq.html

    http://community.bowdoin.edu/news/2017/09/bowdoins-maceachern-on-fast-science-and-the-myth-of-african-national-iq/

    There's also zero evidence that caste groups in India have genetically determined different IQs. Brahmins and "upper castes" (which are hardly homogeneous groups if you look at the history) are more advanced because they tended to have a history of literacy that other groups lacked.

    , @LOLknee
    @Tor597

    Nope.

    http://raceandiqmyths.blogspot.com/2016/10/lynns-contrived-work-on-iq-of-india.html

    Replies: @Tor597

  266. songbird says:
    June 18, 2020 at 2:55 pm GMT • 100 Words   
    @82-IQ H1B Indian
    @AnonFromTN

    This is an excellent question!

    I cannot explain every single nuance in just one post but before I take it up, let me correct a few things you mentioned in your question.


    There are no hungry people in China, whereas in India tens of millions are chronically hungry, millions of children are malnourished. Every person in China has a place to live, whereas in India a sizable fraction of the population has no roof over its head and lives in the street. I am not even mentioning defecation all over the place.
     
    From 1947 to mid 1990's China had more people in absolute poverty compared to India. India inherited the crown of ignominy in late nineties and passed it to Nigeria 3 years ago. Right now Nigeria has more people in absolute poverty compared to India. India currently has less than 50 million poor people. India has already lifted 250 million people out of poverty in just last 10 years. In next 5 years absolute poverty will be eliminated. Tackling relative poverty and mal-nutrition will come next. Only China did better than India in eliminating poverty.

    Regarding open defecation - Google Swachh Bharat Abiyaan. In 2014 only 38% of rural India had indoor toilets. It rose to 100% by Oct 2019. Even the critics admit that coverage is well over 90% now.

    Similarly there is a near universal banking account & health insurance for 500 million people (both of these took less than 3 years to cover the entire population BTW). 100% electric connections is done & current target is 100% piped water supply by 2022)

    So why did these happen in 5 years after 2014 and not in 60 years before 2014?

    Simple. India had "European" Prime Ministers from 1947 to 2014 and "Asian" Prime Minister from 2014 till date. The current PM of India is similar to Lee Kuan Yew/ Deng Xiaoping/ Park Chung-hee. He studied why Asian nations progressed and India did not and implementing what should have been done 40 years ago. He is not much into intellectualizing things. He is more of an engineer type (what is the problem & how to fix it). India's problems have nothing to do with caste system.

    When India became independent in 1947, it went with extremely idealistic constitution and social policies. With a 90% poverty and illiteracy rate, it went with universal franchise democracy. It may fail in implementation but on statue books the laws would fit nicely to a rich Scandinavian nation :-) Women and lower castes were given right to vote on day 1. Backward castes were given reservations in jobs and education from day 1. It did hurt meritocracy but it was seen that social justice was more important than efficiency.

    Similarly because India was colonized by East India company, the first prime minister disdained private companies. He publicly said that he considered "profit" as a bad word. In his view only govt can save poor from rapacious private enterprise. So systematically Indian private enterprise was destroyed. The public sector with its legendary inefficiency and corruption (monopoly!) neither generated wealth nor efficiency. Before reforms in 1991, Indian govt companies made bread and ran hotels (and everything in between)!!

    He was terrified on Military coup as well just like other third world nations. So, British Indian Army which was the best armed forces in all of Asia was systematically weakened by making it subservient to bureaucracy & promoting "loyal" people. But it didn't last long. 1962 defeat jolted him and since then Indian Armed forces are left mostly to professional soldiers (of course under layers of bureaucratic control)

    All of it came crashing down in 1991 economic crisis. That forced India to dismantle "licence raj" and allow private and foreign companies to do business in India.

    But as I mentioned earlier, the path to hell is paved with good intentions. India wanted to protect vulnerable farmers hence created a nightmare laws that will not let him die but also will not let him prosper (land ceiling act/ APMC/ Minimum support price, Not allowing agri land to change for industrial purposes etc).

    Similarly the playing field is massively rigged in favor of labor (to protect him from exploitative private enterprise you see?) This meant that while other asian countries became export powerhouses we go around bragging how we did not let poor exploited by companies. Changing them against labor will have electoral consequences :-)

    There are tonnes of more issues that I may have skipped but bottom line is that after first prime minister, the current PM of India has the most powerful mandate from the people of India. He is not a capitalist of the Anglo-saxon school. Instead just like post war Germany, Japan, Taiwan, South Korea, Singapore he is mostly in favor of Ordoliberalism ==> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordoliberalism

    Whether India will successfully Industrialize or not will be decided in future (On this forum people are already dead sure that India will never become industrial economy since they have sub-human IQ :-) But when we see North Korea vs South Korea, clearly economic policies do matter)

    Replies: @DB Cooper, @Tor597, @Meena, @Not Only Wrathful, @AnonFromTN, @songbird, @Philip Owen, @Escher

    I have heard that at one time, you had to get a stamped permit in order to drink a beer in India – such was the bureaucracy.

    I shall tell you my theory about lack of toilets in India: after the British left, there were a lot of nefarious activities going on in such public restrooms as existed. A lot of male prostitution. A lot of black market deals. So, they developed a bad reputation, and wealthier Indians weren’t as willing to fund toilet initiatives as a charitable endeavor, as had been the case in the US, decades before.

    • Replies: @Meena
    @songbird

    Lack of sanitation facilities linked to higher rape incidents in India-- https://news.umich.edu/lack-of-sanitation-facilities-linked-to-higher-rape-incidents-in-india/

    Why India's sanitation crisis kills women-- https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-27635363
    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-06-02/toilet-shortage-fueling-india-rape-scourge-as-women-easy-prey
    Toilet Shortage Fuels India Rape as Women Are Prey--
    https://www.outlookindia.com/newswire/story/higher-incidents-of-rape-in-india-linked-to-open-defecation-says-study/962341 



    “But the deaths conceivably could have been averted if the girls had had access to a toilet at home. Lacking one, on the night they were killed, the two teens did what hundreds of millions of women do across India each day: Under the cloak of darkness before sunrise or after sunset, they set out for an open field to relieve themselves.
    Guddo Devi, 35, is a cousin of the two slain girls and says women normally move in pairs to avoid being preyed upon.
    "When we step out of the house we are scared," Devi says. "And we have to go in the mornings, in the evenings, and when we cannot stop ourselves, at times we go in the afternoons as well. ... And there are no bathrooms. We don't have any kind of facility. We have to go out."
    Others complained of harassment in the fields, but only now, after the double rape and murder, do they fear for their lives performing the simplest bodily function.” https://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2014/06/09/319529037/indias-rape-uproar-ignites-demand-to-end-open-defecation

    , @Meena
    @songbird

    Lack of sanitation facilities linked to higher rape incidents in India-- https://news.umich.edu/lack-of-sanitation-facilities-linked-to-higher-rape-incidents-in-india/

    Why India's sanitation crisis kills women-- https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-27635363
    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-06-02/toilet-shortage-fueling-india-rape-scourge-as-women-easy-prey
    Toilet Shortage Fuels India Rape as Women Are Prey--
    https://www.outlookindia.com/newswire/story/higher-incidents-of-rape-in-india-linked-to-open-defecation-says-study/962341 





    “But the deaths conceivably could have been averted if the girls had had access to a toilet at home. Lacking one, on the night they were killed, the two teens did what hundreds of millions of women do across India each day: Under the cloak of darkness before sunrise or after sunset, they set out for an open field to relieve themselves.
    Guddo Devi, 35, is a cousin of the two slain girls and says women normally move in pairs to avoid being preyed upon.
    "When we step out of the house we are scared," Devi says. "And we have to go in the mornings, in the evenings, and when we cannot stop ourselves, at times we go in the afternoons as well. ... And there are no bathrooms. We don't have any kind of facility. We have to go out."
    Others complained of harassment in the fields, but only now, after the double rape and murder, do they fear for their lives performing the simplest bodily function.” https://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2014/06/09/319529037/indias-rape-uproar-ignites-demand-to-end-open-defecation

    , @Meena
    @songbird

    Lack of sanitation facilities linked to higher rape incidents in India-- https://news.umich.edu/lack-of-sanitation-facilities-linked-to-higher-rape-incidents-in-india/

    Why India's sanitation crisis kills women-- https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-27635363
    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-06-02/toilet-shortage-fueling-india-rape-scourge-as-women-easy-prey

    Toilet Shortage Fuels India Rape as Women Are Prey--
    https://www.outlookindia.com/newswire/story/higher-incidents-of-rape-in-india-linked-to-open-defecation-says-study/962341 





    “But the deaths conceivably could have been averted if the girls had had access to a toilet at home. Lacking one, on the night they were killed,

    Others complained of harassment in the fields, but only now, after the double rape and murder, do they fear for their lives performing the simplest bodily function.” https://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2014/06/09/319529037/indias-rape-uproar-ignites-demand-to-end-open-defecation

  267. LOLknee says:
    June 18, 2020 at 2:58 pm GMT • 100 Words   
    @Tor597
    @LOLknee

    The IQ numbers are accurate.

    There is a lot that goes into producing economic activity and innovation besides IQ. Keep in mind that China was as poor as Africa despite having a much higher IQ.

    And North Koreans are much smarter than Africans despite having a lower living standard.

    Communism, high taxation, poor monetary policy, high tarrifs, no rule of law work against a population where even if they are smart they will never succeed.

    With India, the caste system has polarized the IQ distribution amongst its population producing a small amount of very smart people and a large amount of low iq people.

    Replies: @LOLknee, @LOLknee, @LOLknee

    Bro, it’s harder to find something Richard Lynn hasn’t lied about than what he *has* lied about.

    http://community.bowdoin.edu/news/2017/09/bowdoins-maceachern-on-fast-science-and-the-myth-of-african-national-iq/

    https://racialreality.blogspot.com/2010/03/richard-lynn-on-italian-iq.html

    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2006/09/more-massaged-data-from-richard-lynn.html

    There’s also zero evidence that castes have different IQs that are genetically determined. Brahmins and “upper castes” are more advanced because they tend to have histories of literacy whereas other castes don’t.

  268. LOLknee says:
    June 18, 2020 at 3:01 pm GMT • 100 Words   
    @Tor597
    @LOLknee

    The IQ numbers are accurate.

    There is a lot that goes into producing economic activity and innovation besides IQ. Keep in mind that China was as poor as Africa despite having a much higher IQ.

    And North Koreans are much smarter than Africans despite having a lower living standard.

    Communism, high taxation, poor monetary policy, high tarrifs, no rule of law work against a population where even if they are smart they will never succeed.

    With India, the caste system has polarized the IQ distribution amongst its population producing a small amount of very smart people and a large amount of low iq people.

    Replies: @LOLknee, @LOLknee, @LOLknee

    Are you not aware of all the fudging /fabrication of data Richard Lynn has done over the years?

    A handful of examples:

    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2006/09/more-massaged-data-from-richard-lynn.html

    https://racialreality.blogspot.com/2010/03/richard-lynn-on-italian-iq.html

    http://community.bowdoin.edu/news/2017/09/bowdoins-maceachern-on-fast-science-and-the-myth-of-african-national-iq/

    There’s also zero evidence that caste groups in India have genetically determined different IQs. Brahmins and “upper castes” (which are hardly homogeneous groups if you look at the history) are more advanced because they tended to have a history of literacy that other groups lacked.

  269. @Blinky Bill
    @Not Only Wrathful

    “In the U.S., you could have a meeting of tooling engineers and I’m not sure we could fill the room,” he said. “In China, you could fill multiple football fields.”

    Party Secretary Timothy D. Cook.


    Article by the Mouth piece of the CCP.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/28/technology/iphones-apple-china-made.html

    Replies: @Not Only Wrathful

    Nice, also:

    American women are owned by men exactly like in the Handmaid’s Tale.

    Gay Americans live in continual fear because of homophobic evangelical mobs that hate them and frequently burn them.

    Black Americans are systematically barred from all jobs and opportunities.

    Jews are ruthlessly discriminated against and can barely enter prestigious organisations.

    America has had a totally ineffective and failed foreign policy (even though it has somehow come to dominate the globe.)

    The American political system is extremely unstable (despite operating as it does for longer than most countries have existed.)

    American manufacturing is dead (even if more is manufactured there than ever.)

    And it goes on and on…

    These criticisms serve a purpose, but one must surely notice a pattern of falsehood by extreme exaggeration.

    And one might see how that falsehood would actually flatter the American ego?

    Meanwhile, China is a utopia with a perfect foreign policy record, perfect intelligence, perfect social harmony and its only vice is being too good.

    As I said, these are two personas. One late adolescent and one infantile.

  270. @AnonFromTN
    @LOLknee


    China is homogeneous, or at least considers themselves to be homogeneous.
     
    First, a disclaimer: I don’t speak Mandarin or any other form of Chinese, I only know a few words. So, my info is not exactly first-hand. To the best of my knowledge, China is quite heterogenous. They use the same writing (Japanese use the same hieroglyphs, so I am told that Chinese understand written Japanese, but the language is different), but from what I know the language variants Chinese call dialects are as different as European languages. I once interviewed a prospective Chinese post-doc, who was from the South near Shanghai, and I told my current at the time Chinese post-doc that the guy makes good impression scientifically, but has a horrible accent in English. She told me that his accent in Mandarin is just as horrible (she was from Xinjian and spoke Mandarin). I hired him, and was right: he was smart and productive, now he is an Assistant Professor in one of the US universities. His English improved a lot. Cannot evaluate his Mandarin. The cuisine of Northern China differs from Sichuan cuisine a lot more than Russian from Ukrainian (I visited China twice, so I am aware that what is called Chinese cuisine in the US is the cuisine of Chinese Moslems, not the Han cuisine, which is a lot better, at least its Northern variety).

    But you are right about history: China existed as a unified state with few interruptions for 2,000+ years, whereas what we call India today was created by British Raj. Chinese consider breakup of the country a catastrophe, whereas quite a few Indians consider unified country a catastrophe. Genetic analysis shows that China functions as a huge gene pool, whereas India functions as many small gene pools. I know that when an Indian post-doc I worked with ~30 years ago refused to marry someone her parents found in India, and married an Indian guy she met in the States, her parents boycotted her, as he was from wrong tribe or caste. They only accepted the reality when she had a child. To me both of them looked the same, usual Indians, but they apparently thought differently.

    So, yes, psychologically Chinese see themselves as one nation, whereas Indians see themselves as a collection of many distinct tribes and different castes. I saw with my own eyes that Tamils look down on Bengalis with more disdain than Russians look at Chukchi. This promotes tribal nepotism and likely impedes the development more than anything else.

    Replies: @82-IQ H1B Indian

    I would suggest you to go through this ==> http://sankrant.org/2003/10/why-india-is-a-nation/

    Megasthenes travelled to India and wrote a book called Indica before Christ was born.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indica_(Megasthenes)

    India is a quadrilateral-shaped country, bounded by the ocean on the southern and the eastern side.[6] The Indus river forms the western and the north-western boundary of the country, as far as the ocean.[7] India’s northern border reaches the extremities of Tauros. From Ariana to the Eastern Sea, it is bound by mountains that are called Kaukasos by the Macedonians. The various native names for these mountains include Parapamisos, Hemodos and Himaos (the Himalayas).[8] Beyond Hemodos, lies Scythia inhabited by the Scythians known as Sakai.[9] Besides Scythia, the countries of Bactria and Ariana border India.[10]

    India has many large and navigable rivers, which arise in the mountains on its northern border. Many of these rivers merge into Ganges, which is 30 stadia wide at its source, and runs from north to south. The Ganges empties into the ocean that forms the eastern boundary of Gangaridai.[11] Other nations feared Gangaridai’s huge force of the biggest elephants, and therefore, Gangaridai had never been conquered by any foreign king.[12]

    Indus also runs from north to south, and has several navigable tributaries. The most notable tributaries are Hupanis, the Hudaspes, and the Akesines.[13] One peculiar river is Sillas, which originates from a fountain of the same name. Everything cast into this river sinks down to the bottom – nothing floats in it.[10] In addition, there are a large number of other rivers, supplying abundant water for agriculture. According to the native philosophers and natural scientists, the reason for this is that the bordering countries are more elevated than India, so their waters run down to India, resulting in such a large number of rivers.[14]

    Indian civilization is one of the oldest in world which inhabited current Indian territory for thousands of years. Nation-state came into existence in 1947.

    ==============

    But there is something very puzzling about China. When we check the list of most deaths in wars/conflicts, its amazing how often China shows up https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_and_anthropogenic_disasters_by_death_toll

    Like a clockwork. Couple of centuries of stability and then boom 5-10% of population dead in conflicts. For such a high IQ civilization who prefer order and continuity, they seem to be incapable of orderly transitions.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    @82-IQ H1B Indian


    When we check the list of most deaths in wars/conflicts, its amazing how often China shows up
     
    How about expressing this as a fraction of the population? What I mean is, if you compare raw numbers of flu death in any year in China, I am sure it would be greater than the whole population of Barbados. But it does not mean that China is wiped out every year by flu.

    Replies: @82-IQ H1B Indian

    , @BS
    @82-IQ H1B Indian

    When every peasant has the genetic potential in him to become Emperor, you end up with such situations. In many other parts of the world when state authority breaks down you have a mass of fellaheen who lack the worldview or intellect to envision enlarging their personal slice of the pie. In China, any old bandit could with sufficient talent seize control of the Empire. Look at how many Imperial dynasties had peasant founders and you'll see that the Chinese are in essence a race of cutthroat strivers, not collectivists but rather individualistic to the point of crippling detriment.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh

  271. Meena says:
    June 18, 2020 at 3:43 pm GMT • 200 Words   
    @songbird
    @82-IQ H1B Indian

    I have heard that at one time, you had to get a stamped permit in order to drink a beer in India - such was the bureaucracy.

    I shall tell you my theory about lack of toilets in India: after the British left, there were a lot of nefarious activities going on in such public restrooms as existed. A lot of male prostitution. A lot of black market deals. So, they developed a bad reputation, and wealthier Indians weren't as willing to fund toilet initiatives as a charitable endeavor, as had been the case in the US, decades before.

    Replies: @Meena, @Meena, @Meena

    Lack of sanitation facilities linked to higher rape incidents in India– https://news.umich.edu/lack-of-sanitation-facilities-linked-to-higher-rape-incidents-in-india/

    Why India’s sanitation crisis kills women– https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-27635363
    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-06-02/toilet-shortage-fueling-india-rape-scourge-as-women-easy-prey
    Toilet Shortage Fuels India Rape as Women Are Prey–
    https://www.outlookindia.com/newswire/story/higher-incidents-of-rape-in-india-linked-to-open-defecation-says-study/962341

    “But the deaths conceivably could have been averted if the girls had had access to a toilet at home. Lacking one, on the night they were killed, the two teens did what hundreds of millions of women do across India each day: Under the cloak of darkness before sunrise or after sunset, they set out for an open field to relieve themselves.
    Guddo Devi, 35, is a cousin of the two slain girls and says women normally move in pairs to avoid being preyed upon.
    “When we step out of the house we are scared,” Devi says. “And we have to go in the mornings, in the evenings, and when we cannot stop ourselves, at times we go in the afternoons as well. … And there are no bathrooms. We don’t have any kind of facility. We have to go out.”
    Others complained of harassment in the fields, but only now, after the double rape and murder, do they fear for their lives performing the simplest bodily function.” https://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2014/06/09/319529037/indias-rape-uproar-ignites-demand-to-end-open-defecation

  272. Meena says:
    June 18, 2020 at 3:43 pm GMT • 200 Words   
    @songbird
    @82-IQ H1B Indian

    I have heard that at one time, you had to get a stamped permit in order to drink a beer in India - such was the bureaucracy.

    I shall tell you my theory about lack of toilets in India: after the British left, there were a lot of nefarious activities going on in such public restrooms as existed. A lot of male prostitution. A lot of black market deals. So, they developed a bad reputation, and wealthier Indians weren't as willing to fund toilet initiatives as a charitable endeavor, as had been the case in the US, decades before.

    Replies: @Meena, @Meena, @Meena

    Lack of sanitation facilities linked to higher rape incidents in India– https://news.umich.edu/lack-of-sanitation-facilities-linked-to-higher-rape-incidents-in-india/

    Why India’s sanitation crisis kills women– https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-27635363
    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-06-02/toilet-shortage-fueling-india-rape-scourge-as-women-easy-prey
    Toilet Shortage Fuels India Rape as Women Are Prey–
    https://www.outlookindia.com/newswire/story/higher-incidents-of-rape-in-india-linked-to-open-defecation-says-study/962341

    “But the deaths conceivably could have been averted if the girls had had access to a toilet at home. Lacking one, on the night they were killed, the two teens did what hundreds of millions of women do across India each day: Under the cloak of darkness before sunrise or after sunset, they set out for an open field to relieve themselves.
    Guddo Devi, 35, is a cousin of the two slain girls and says women normally move in pairs to avoid being preyed upon.
    “When we step out of the house we are scared,” Devi says. “And we have to go in the mornings, in the evenings, and when we cannot stop ourselves, at times we go in the afternoons as well. … And there are no bathrooms. We don’t have any kind of facility. We have to go out.”
    Others complained of harassment in the fields, but only now, after the double rape and murder, do they fear for their lives performing the simplest bodily function.” https://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2014/06/09/319529037/indias-rape-uproar-ignites-demand-to-end-open-defecation

  273. Meena says:
    June 18, 2020 at 3:45 pm GMT • 100 Words   
    @songbird
    @82-IQ H1B Indian

    I have heard that at one time, you had to get a stamped permit in order to drink a beer in India - such was the bureaucracy.

    I shall tell you my theory about lack of toilets in India: after the British left, there were a lot of nefarious activities going on in such public restrooms as existed. A lot of male prostitution. A lot of black market deals. So, they developed a bad reputation, and wealthier Indians weren't as willing to fund toilet initiatives as a charitable endeavor, as had been the case in the US, decades before.

    Replies: @Meena, @Meena, @Meena

    Lack of sanitation facilities linked to higher rape incidents in India– https://news.umich.edu/lack-of-sanitation-facilities-linked-to-higher-rape-incidents-in-india/

    Why India’s sanitation crisis kills women– https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-27635363
    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-06-02/toilet-shortage-fueling-india-rape-scourge-as-women-easy-prey

    Toilet Shortage Fuels India Rape as Women Are Prey–
    https://www.outlookindia.com/newswire/story/higher-incidents-of-rape-in-india-linked-to-open-defecation-says-study/962341

    “But the deaths conceivably could have been averted if the girls had had access to a toilet at home. Lacking one, on the night they were killed,

    Others complained of harassment in the fields, but only now, after the double rape and murder, do they fear for their lives performing the simplest bodily function.” https://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2014/06/09/319529037/indias-rape-uproar-ignites-demand-to-end-open-defecation

  274. @Tor597
    @LOLknee

    The IQ numbers are accurate.

    There is a lot that goes into producing economic activity and innovation besides IQ. Keep in mind that China was as poor as Africa despite having a much higher IQ.

    And North Koreans are much smarter than Africans despite having a lower living standard.

    Communism, high taxation, poor monetary policy, high tarrifs, no rule of law work against a population where even if they are smart they will never succeed.

    With India, the caste system has polarized the IQ distribution amongst its population producing a small amount of very smart people and a large amount of low iq people.

    Replies: @LOLknee, @LOLknee, @LOLknee

    • Replies: @Tor597
    @LOLknee

    lol

    You cite an Indian blogger with one post on his website whose greatest complaint is that the IQ study did end up in a mainstream paper.

    Now why do you think that is?

    Replies: @LOLknee

  275. d dan says:
    June 18, 2020 at 3:50 pm GMT • 400 Words   
    @Not Only Wrathful
    @Daniel Chieh

    Cambodia is still ruled by the Vietnamese imposed dictator...

    China also got none of what it set out to do and Vietnam adequately defended itself.

    Regardless, if you want to call the alienation of a bordering country, and others, along with a total strategic failure, somehow a victory because of..."tactical", be my guest.

    It just reinforces to me how talking with so many Chinese about China is like walking on egg shells.

    The Chinese person thinks this makes them strong, as other people feel the need to step extremely carefully; but the Chinese need to do the same egg shell walk internally, as that's the sacrifice of being fragile, and so are incapable of accurate self-reflection.

    So, yes, China are very wise and the Chinese invasion of Vietnam was a success. May the CCP have many more such successes!

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @Blinky Bill, @d dan

    “Regardless, if you want to call the alienation of a bordering country, and others, along with a total strategic failure, somehow a victory because of…”tactical”, be my guest.”

    This is the problem with commenter like you who don’t know much (or anything) about a remote culture, and then try to make judgement and decision on something that you are totally ignorant of.

    Yes, China alienated Vietnamese – so what? China made plenty of friends out of ASEAN at that time because most ASEAN countries actually liked the fact that China was teaching Vietnamese a “lesson” that US couldn’t. They felt much safer after the Chinese invasion. It further showed the useless-ness of Soviet-Vietnam alliance. Several commenters have already talked about the strategic reasons, and I could go on more and more for two hours – but at it stands, existing points are sufficient rebuttals for your silly comment.

    “It just reinforces to me how talking with so many Chinese about China is like walking on egg shells.”

    And the egg shell is likely be on your head – it has been demonstrated again, again, again….., again, that people in the west are totally lost when talking about middle east, about Africa, about China,… They like to use their pre-existing western framework to understand foreign countries/culture.

    “so are incapable of accurate self-reflection”

    This shows your self projection – Chinese people is likely one of the most open-minded people today – they did serious soul searching for over a century to achieve what they arrive today – at one time, they even thought of giving up their own language, their religion etc! Just imagine how much self-reflections had they gone through.

    Most westerners, however, have gone the other way – kind of remind the Chinese of the way the Qinq officials treated foreigners – except it is the west that is treating Chinese this time.

    “So, yes, China are very wise and the Chinese invasion of Vietnam was a success. “

    If you were even perceptive enough, you would even notice that most Chinese don’t bring up this episode – until some Indians, some Vietnamese or some westerners decide to bring this up as a way to show how the “weaknesses” of Chinese army. Talking about strawman….

  276. d dan says:
    June 18, 2020 at 4:04 pm GMT • 100 Words   
    @AaronB
    @A123

    The United States originally built up its industries behind tarrifs. All successful countries did. China also protects its industries and does not practice free trade, as everyone knows by now.

    Absolute free trade is only preached by countries who are in a position to benefit from it.

    If that's no longer the case for America, then obviously America will no longer practice free trade. It sucks for China because it's entire economy is built on foreign companies using it's cheap labor force and access to foreign markets, but killing the goose that laid the golden egg is an extremely common folly in human history.

    It may take time, but it will happen. It's obviously already speeding up.

    For myself, I'm always suspicious of anything extreme - all extreme positions are utopian ideology and not consistent with reality. Unrestricted free trade is as obviously ideological and inconsistent with reality as a completely closed and planned economy.

    The most successful policy always ends up being a messy half way house between extremes, adjusting and adapting to changing conditions without ideological blinders. That doesn't mean extreme policies are not occasionally called for - just that if one starts believing in them as ideologies (as always applicable), one is no longer adapting to real conditions.

    Replies: @d dan, @A123, @Astuteobservor II

    “Absolute free trade is only preached by countries,…”

    LOL, this shows how “principled” you are for the Taoism/libertarian ideal….

    “It sucks for China because it’s entire economy is built on foreign companies using it’s cheap labor force and access to foreign markets, but killing the goose that laid the golden egg is an extremely common folly in human history.”

    Quite frankly, I have little motivation to even point up the stupidity of your comment like this statement – I am posting this comment mainly to laugh at your hypocrisy and to expose your true color.

    Hahahahahahah.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    @d dan

    When did I ever support unrestricted free trade? Or libertarianism for that matter?

    I do support a relatively high level of social and political freedom, but I also support order.

    I'm not an extremist. I also adapt to circumstances.

    Taoist laisse faire is certainly the ideal - anarchy is the ideal - but today's people grow up psychologically disfigured, so could not immediately live like that.

    I even said that the harshly repressive CCP may have been necessary for a time, but that it is far from ideal and cannot and should not last.

    And in cases of extreme chaos, I would support temporary authoritarianism. And in cases where civilization has become too repressive and uptight, like in Victorian times, I would support tearing it all down.

    , @lin
    @d dan


    “It sucks for China because it’s entire economy is built on foreign companies using it’s cheap labor force and access to foreign markets, but killing the goose that laid the golden egg is an extremely common folly in human history.”
     
    I have rebuked such stupidity for a number of times. Those who made such claims simply don't or can't read economic data. I tempt not to rebuke any more. Such view actually could be beneficial to china.
  277. @82-IQ H1B Indian
    @AnonFromTN

    I would suggest you to go through this ==> http://sankrant.org/2003/10/why-india-is-a-nation/

    Megasthenes travelled to India and wrote a book called Indica before Christ was born.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indica_(Megasthenes)


    India is a quadrilateral-shaped country, bounded by the ocean on the southern and the eastern side.[6] The Indus river forms the western and the north-western boundary of the country, as far as the ocean.[7] India's northern border reaches the extremities of Tauros. From Ariana to the Eastern Sea, it is bound by mountains that are called Kaukasos by the Macedonians. The various native names for these mountains include Parapamisos, Hemodos and Himaos (the Himalayas).[8] Beyond Hemodos, lies Scythia inhabited by the Scythians known as Sakai.[9] Besides Scythia, the countries of Bactria and Ariana border India.[10]

    India has many large and navigable rivers, which arise in the mountains on its northern border. Many of these rivers merge into Ganges, which is 30 stadia wide at its source, and runs from north to south. The Ganges empties into the ocean that forms the eastern boundary of Gangaridai.[11] Other nations feared Gangaridai's huge force of the biggest elephants, and therefore, Gangaridai had never been conquered by any foreign king.[12]


     


    Indus also runs from north to south, and has several navigable tributaries. The most notable tributaries are Hupanis, the Hudaspes, and the Akesines.[13] One peculiar river is Sillas, which originates from a fountain of the same name. Everything cast into this river sinks down to the bottom - nothing floats in it.[10] In addition, there are a large number of other rivers, supplying abundant water for agriculture. According to the native philosophers and natural scientists, the reason for this is that the bordering countries are more elevated than India, so their waters run down to India, resulting in such a large number of rivers.[14]
     
    Indian civilization is one of the oldest in world which inhabited current Indian territory for thousands of years. Nation-state came into existence in 1947.

    ==============

    But there is something very puzzling about China. When we check the list of most deaths in wars/conflicts, its amazing how often China shows up https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_and_anthropogenic_disasters_by_death_toll

    Like a clockwork. Couple of centuries of stability and then boom 5-10% of population dead in conflicts. For such a high IQ civilization who prefer order and continuity, they seem to be incapable of orderly transitions.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN, @BS

    When we check the list of most deaths in wars/conflicts, its amazing how often China shows up

    How about expressing this as a fraction of the population? What I mean is, if you compare raw numbers of flu death in any year in China, I am sure it would be greater than the whole population of Barbados. But it does not mean that China is wiped out every year by flu.

    • Replies: @82-IQ H1B Indian
    @AnonFromTN

    Even as a % of their population they are horrendous. Almost like 5-10% of entire population

    Take Taiping rebellion. Estimates are between 10 to 30 million dead. China population in 1850 is 450 million. So 2.2 to 6.6% perished. Great leap forward apparently killed 5% of population. (both taken from Wikipedia. I am a newbie when it comes to China. Still learning about it. Quite fascinating)

    When you compare it with equally populous India, the difference is quite stark. As usual, India under performs in mass killings as well.

  278. AaronB says:
    June 18, 2020 at 4:24 pm GMT • 100 Words   
    @d dan
    @AaronB


    "Absolute free trade is only preached by countries,..."
     
    LOL, this shows how "principled" you are for the Taoism/libertarian ideal....

    "It sucks for China because it’s entire economy is built on foreign companies using it’s cheap labor force and access to foreign markets, but killing the goose that laid the golden egg is an extremely common folly in human history."
     
    Quite frankly, I have little motivation to even point up the stupidity of your comment like this statement - I am posting this comment mainly to laugh at your hypocrisy and to expose your true color.

    Hahahahahahah.

    Replies: @AaronB, @lin

    When did I ever support unrestricted free trade? Or libertarianism for that matter?

    I do support a relatively high level of social and political freedom, but I also support order.

    I’m not an extremist. I also adapt to circumstances.

    Taoist laisse faire is certainly the ideal – anarchy is the ideal – but today’s people grow up psychologically disfigured, so could not immediately live like that.

    I even said that the harshly repressive CCP may have been necessary for a time, but that it is far from ideal and cannot and should not last.

    And in cases of extreme chaos, I would support temporary authoritarianism. And in cases where civilization has become too repressive and uptight, like in Victorian times, I would support tearing it all down.

  279. @AnonFromTN
    @82-IQ H1B Indian


    When we check the list of most deaths in wars/conflicts, its amazing how often China shows up
     
    How about expressing this as a fraction of the population? What I mean is, if you compare raw numbers of flu death in any year in China, I am sure it would be greater than the whole population of Barbados. But it does not mean that China is wiped out every year by flu.

    Replies: @82-IQ H1B Indian

    Even as a % of their population they are horrendous. Almost like 5-10% of entire population

    Take Taiping rebellion. Estimates are between 10 to 30 million dead. China population in 1850 is 450 million. So 2.2 to 6.6% perished. Great leap forward apparently killed 5% of population. (both taken from Wikipedia. I am a newbie when it comes to China. Still learning about it. Quite fascinating)

    When you compare it with equally populous India, the difference is quite stark. As usual, India under performs in mass killings as well.

  280. A123 says:
    June 18, 2020 at 5:03 pm GMT • 300 Words   
    @AaronB
    @A123

    The United States originally built up its industries behind tarrifs. All successful countries did. China also protects its industries and does not practice free trade, as everyone knows by now.

    Absolute free trade is only preached by countries who are in a position to benefit from it.

    If that's no longer the case for America, then obviously America will no longer practice free trade. It sucks for China because it's entire economy is built on foreign companies using it's cheap labor force and access to foreign markets, but killing the goose that laid the golden egg is an extremely common folly in human history.

    It may take time, but it will happen. It's obviously already speeding up.

    For myself, I'm always suspicious of anything extreme - all extreme positions are utopian ideology and not consistent with reality. Unrestricted free trade is as obviously ideological and inconsistent with reality as a completely closed and planned economy.

    The most successful policy always ends up being a messy half way house between extremes, adjusting and adapting to changing conditions without ideological blinders. That doesn't mean extreme policies are not occasionally called for - just that if one starts believing in them as ideologies (as always applicable), one is no longer adapting to real conditions.

    Replies: @d dan, @A123, @Astuteobservor II

    The United States originally built up its industries behind tarrifs. All successful countries did. China also protects its industries and does not practice free trade, as everyone knows by now.

    Absolute free trade is only preached by countries who are in a position to benefit from it.

    We have a similar conclusion, but I am have some significant differences with your process.

    I do not think that ‘absolutely free trade’ can benefit any country. It is part of the SJW Globalist play book to diminish nations. The SJW Globalist assault on the U.S. was particularly egregious, as it resulted in obviously unfair and unequal trade. The U.S. needs to bring tariffs back at “above equal” levels for a few decades repair the damage done by SJW Corporate Globalism.

    It sucks for China because it’s entire economy is built on foreign companies using it’s cheap labor force and access to foreign markets, but killing the goose that laid the golden egg is an extremely common folly in human history.

    China, as the main exploiter of SJW Globalist corporate policy, is #1 in line to be hit as Populism replaces Globalism. State Owned Enterprises [SOE’s] are highly inefficient and need an ‘exploitation advantage’ to stay in business. They will have to find new victims or reform. Certainly tough times ahead for China. Financially pressured SOE’s will default resulting in bank failures.

    It may take time, but it will happen. It’s obviously already speeding up.

    Yes. The process is not instant, but if the U.S. commits to rebuilding industry damaged by the SJW/China Axis, it can do so in an economically competitive manner.

    Ending Chinese Exploitation is only the first step. Some significant tariffs will help U.S. industry, and hopefully start to balance the U.S. Budget again. Apple may be able to duck income taxes. They will find it much harder to duck tariffs applied to imported iPhone components.

    PEACE 😇

    • Thanks: AaronB
  281. BS says:
    June 18, 2020 at 5:14 pm GMT • 100 Words   
    @82-IQ H1B Indian
    @AnonFromTN

    I would suggest you to go through this ==> http://sankrant.org/2003/10/why-india-is-a-nation/

    Megasthenes travelled to India and wrote a book called Indica before Christ was born.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indica_(Megasthenes)


    India is a quadrilateral-shaped country, bounded by the ocean on the southern and the eastern side.[6] The Indus river forms the western and the north-western boundary of the country, as far as the ocean.[7] India's northern border reaches the extremities of Tauros. From Ariana to the Eastern Sea, it is bound by mountains that are called Kaukasos by the Macedonians. The various native names for these mountains include Parapamisos, Hemodos and Himaos (the Himalayas).[8] Beyond Hemodos, lies Scythia inhabited by the Scythians known as Sakai.[9] Besides Scythia, the countries of Bactria and Ariana border India.[10]

    India has many large and navigable rivers, which arise in the mountains on its northern border. Many of these rivers merge into Ganges, which is 30 stadia wide at its source, and runs from north to south. The Ganges empties into the ocean that forms the eastern boundary of Gangaridai.[11] Other nations feared Gangaridai's huge force of the biggest elephants, and therefore, Gangaridai had never been conquered by any foreign king.[12]


     


    Indus also runs from north to south, and has several navigable tributaries. The most notable tributaries are Hupanis, the Hudaspes, and the Akesines.[13] One peculiar river is Sillas, which originates from a fountain of the same name. Everything cast into this river sinks down to the bottom - nothing floats in it.[10] In addition, there are a large number of other rivers, supplying abundant water for agriculture. According to the native philosophers and natural scientists, the reason for this is that the bordering countries are more elevated than India, so their waters run down to India, resulting in such a large number of rivers.[14]
     
    Indian civilization is one of the oldest in world which inhabited current Indian territory for thousands of years. Nation-state came into existence in 1947.

    ==============

    But there is something very puzzling about China. When we check the list of most deaths in wars/conflicts, its amazing how often China shows up https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_and_anthropogenic_disasters_by_death_toll

    Like a clockwork. Couple of centuries of stability and then boom 5-10% of population dead in conflicts. For such a high IQ civilization who prefer order and continuity, they seem to be incapable of orderly transitions.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN, @BS

    When every peasant has the genetic potential in him to become Emperor, you end up with such situations. In many other parts of the world when state authority breaks down you have a mass of fellaheen who lack the worldview or intellect to envision enlarging their personal slice of the pie. In China, any old bandit could with sufficient talent seize control of the Empire. Look at how many Imperial dynasties had peasant founders and you’ll see that the Chinese are in essence a race of cutthroat strivers, not collectivists but rather individualistic to the point of crippling detriment.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    @BS

    There is a certain charm to the Indian system - it was more of a culture than an actual nation, but anthropologists have mentioned how functional it was, to the point that currency was unnecessary even in a small town, but all tasks were handled by intensely specialized castes to a point that its hard to imagine: shoemakers, farmers, and I remember in some examples, even hereditary male prostitutes specializing in a specific position of sex.

    This could be quite horrible, though:

    One extreme possibility might be the situation the French anthropologist Jean-Claude Galey encountered in a region of the eastern Himalayas where as recently as the 1970s, the low-ranking castes—they were referred to as “the vanquished ones,” since they were thought to be descended from a population once conquered by the current landlord caste many centuries before—lived in a situation of permanent debt dependency. Landless and penniless, they were obliged to solicit loans from the landlords simply to find a way to eat—not for the money, since the sums were paltry, but because poor debtors were expected to pay back the interest in the form of work, which meant they were at least provided with food and shelter while they cleaned out their creditors’ outhouses and reroofed their sheds.

    For the “vanquished”—as