The Unz Review • An Alternative Media Selection
A Collection of Interesting, Important, and Controversial Perspectives Largely Excluded from the American Mainstream Media
 TeasersRussian Reaction Blog
CEO Demographics Mirror Coffee Salons
Email This Page to Someone

 Remember My Information



=>

Bookmark Toggle AllToCAdd to LibraryRemove from Library • BShow CommentNext New CommentNext New ReplyRead More
ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
AgreeDisagreeThanksLOLTroll
These buttons register your public Agreement, Disagreement, Thanks, LOL, or Troll with the selected comment. They are ONLY available to recent, frequent commenters who have saved their Name+Email using the 'Remember My Information' checkbox, and may also ONLY be used three times during any eight hour period.
Ignore Commenter Follow Commenter
Search Text Case Sensitive  Exact Words  Include Comments
List of Bookmarks

Lu, J. G., Nisbett, R. E., & Morris, M. W. (2020). Why East Asians but not South Asians are underrepresented in leadership positions in the United States. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America, 117(9), 4590–4600.

(h/t Razib Khan)

Article makes the case that EAs are underrepresented (“bamboo ceiling”) because they “communicate less assertively” relative to both Whites and South Asians.

We provide evidence that the leadership attainment gap between EAs and SAs is not due to differences in motivation or prejudice: EAs were neither less hardworking norless motivated to take on leadership roles than SAs, and SAs actually faced greater prejudice than EAs. Similarly, this leadership attainment gap could not be explained by demographics such as birth country, English fluency, education level, and SES.Instead, cultural differences in assertiveness consistently explained the leadership attainment gap, suggesting that EAs are less likely to attain leadership positions partly because their low assertiveness is incongruent with how leaders are expected to communicate in the United States.

Remind you of anything?

Basically, it’s a mirror of “Coffee House” demographics patterns.

The authors do express some befuddlement in “Future Directions” as to why SAs do better than Whites. The reason is that non-conformism isn’t everything and that high IQ is also important. Indian-American IQ is higher than White IQ and even higher than East Asian IQ.

You need both high IQ and non-conformism to both be interesting and to “make it.” (Ultimate example of this is women, their IQ is basically similar to male, but they are much more “normie”).

The East Asian-descended politician and businessman operating in the West whom I internally regard as archetypal are Andrew Yang and Binance CEO Changpeng Zhao.

I like both of them and they are fun Twitter follows. But in both cases, their leadership/”assertiveness” comes off more as a penchant for whimsical trolling. But it is instructive, as the article itself points out, that Andrew Yang practiced debate – a methodical/systemic approach to closing “gift of gab” gaps with his competitors. In the event, despite the studious practice, Yang’s performance in the Dem debates was substandard. He was unable to interject and the other candidates talked all over him.

In contrast, one thing that Indians definitely don’t suffer from is a dislike for the sound of their own voice:

By contrast, SA cultures encourage assertiveness in interpersonal communication. For example, as explained in Nobel Laureate Amartya Sen’s book The Argumentative Indian, there is a long tradition of argumentation and debate in India, where people “encounter masses of arguments and counterarguments spread over incessant debates and disputations”(p. 3).

The traditional way to explain this East Asian peculiarity is “Confucianism.” But considering the crispness of this differentiation by race and various pieces of data from way before Confucius even appeared (e.g. the earliest Chinese shaman-kings have Caucasian features) it’s very likely more of a Caucasian/Mongoloid difference.

 
Hide 205 CommentsLeave a Comment
Commenters to Ignore...to FollowEndorsed Only
Trim Comments?
  1. Please keep off topic posts to the current Open Thread.

    If you are new to my work, start here.

    Commenting rules. Please note that anonymous comments are not allowed.

  2. e.g. the earliest Chinese shaman-kings have Caucasian features)

    Does this claim have any reliable evidence, in the form of skeletons of early Chinese rulers found? As far as I know there are no such confirmations

    it’s very likely more of a Caucasian/Mongoloid difference

    To prove this, you need to show that numerous “non-Confucian” Mongoloids have the same characteristics

    • Agree: Blinky Bill, AltanBakshi
    • Replies: @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms
    @melanf

    This can’t be attested to one way or the other, based on current archaeology.

    Xia (22CE BC) and (Shang 16CE BC) are called dynasties but are really pre-history. So we don’t really know what they look like. Most likely Sino-Tibetan/Altaic, but who knows.

    We do know that the Shangs are very un-Confucian. E.g. a lot of wild crazy sex, and human sacrifices.

    Zhou and after are attest-ably northern Mongoloid
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terracotta_Army#Types_and_appearance

    Caucasoid features have been around since time immemorial. Just have gradually phase out as the center of Sino civilization transitioned from Northwest (near Xi’an) towards Southeast (Yangtze Delta)

    Sun Quan, one of the 3 Monarchs of the Three Kingdoms was cited as having blue eyes, so you guys can claim him. (Though he was not considered to be more non-conformist than Liu Bei and Cao Cao, the other two monarchs lol)


    小説『三国志演義』では、「碧眼紫髯 堂堂一表」と堂々とした風采の持ち主として描写されている[52]。「碧眼児」(水色瞳の童)と呼ばれる。
    In the novel "Romance of the Three Kingdoms", it is described as the owner of a dignified appearance as "Blue-eyed Purple Beard Dodo Ichimoku" [52]. He is called a "blue-eyed child" (a child with light blue eyes).

     

    https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%AD%AB%E6%A8%A9#%E9%A2%A8%E8%B2%8C

    Replies: @Boomthorkell, @melanf, @AltanBakshi

  3. A few points about Indian American IQ.

    1.The super high figures quoted are not to the best of my knowledge derived from a statistically valid sample. It is not like these IQ figures are derived from the PISA scores of all Indian American participants. That would be a legit IQ estimate.

    2.The caste breakup of Indian Americans is 20 % Brahmin,40% upper caste(including Brahmins) , 50% middle castes and 10% Dalits. So whatever the legit IQ of this group is it isn’t because this is a large mostly Brahmin expat community as many on this forum seem to think.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Vishnugupta


    .The caste breakup of Indian Americans is 20 % Brahmin,40% upper caste(including Brahmins) , 50% middle castes and 10% Dalits
     
    I thought it was much higher than that ( the article I linked to claims 90% belong to upper castes). Still, 40% upper caste would still skew the results in terms of average IQ. Furthermore, even the middle and lower caste people are still well filtered when they come to the USA, we aren’t getting poor illiterate peasants.

    Amusingly, American civil rights laws don’t cover caste discrimination and there is a lot of discrimination against Dalits in the USA by their upper-caste brethren. Some of these people who oppress the Dalits also support Black Lives Matter, aping their wealthy white peers.

    https://www.trtworld.com/magazine/a-silicon-valley-lawsuit-reveals-caste-discrimination-is-rife-in-the-us-39773

    Replies: @Mr. XYZ, @Dmitry

    , @Thulean Friend
    @Vishnugupta


    The caste breakup of Indian Americans is 20 % Brahmin,40% upper caste(including Brahmins), 50% middle castes and 10% Dalits.
     
    Final proof that you don't know much about these matters. Razib Khan, who knows more about Indian-American demographics than almost anyone on the planet, estimates dalits to be at most 1% of the total Indian-American population. You're "only" off by an order of a magnitude.

    Replies: @songbird, @AP

  4. Might reflect higher levels of femininity overall representative of a lower T society in East Asian culture:

    1) Higher expectations of care
    2) Higher levels of collectivism
    3) Increased neuroticism/future orientation
    4) Lowered risk taking
    5) Generally more social/verbal means of conflict initiation and resolution

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @Daniel Chieh

    Do they eat more soy than Indians?

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh

  5. I have said this on many a previous occasion: that had the mix in Singapore been different, had it been 75% Indians, 15% Malays and the rest Chinese, it would not have worked. Because they believe in the politics of contention, of opposition. But because the culture was such that the populace sought a practical way out of their difficulties, therefore it has worked.

    Lee Kuan Yew.


    [MORE]

    Indian Singaporeans

    1957 -9.0%
    1970 -7.2%
    1980 -6.4%
    1990 -7.1%
    2000 -7.9%
    2007 -9.0%

    Politics – Indians have been well represented in national politics, including the ruling People’s Action Party (PAP) as well as opposition parties. Indians have served as two out of eight Presidents of Singapore, two out of four Senior Ministers and three out of eleven Deputy Prime Ministers. At some point, Indians have been Ministers of almost all ministries, including Foreign Affairs and Finance. The only key posts Indians have not held are Prime Minister and Defence Minister. As of June 2018, Indians were over-represented in the Cabinet (5 out of 19 cabinet ministers, or 26% of the total). They also comprise 10 out of 89 MPs in the 13th Parliament of Singapore, and one of three of its Non-constituency MPs.

    In law – Historically, Indians have been prominent in the legal profession, including the judiciary. In 2007, 21 out of 81 persons listed in the Singapore Academy of Law’s senior counsel directory in June 2018, or 26%, were Indian. In the Subordinate Courts of Singapore, 9.8% of all District Judges was ethnic Indian. Meanwhile, in the Supreme Court of Singapore, 14%, or two of the 14 Supreme Court Judges and Judicial Commissioners, are Indian.

    Diplomacy – Indians have traditionally served in the Singapore Diplomatic Service in disproportionate numbers. The Second Permanent Secretary to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Mr Bilahari Kausikan, is Indian, as have been three of its five Ministers to date. As of March 2007, a survey of the Singapore Government Directory Interactive website showed about 27% of the heads of Singaporean diplomatic missions abroad were Indian, including heads of missions to the UN in New York and Geneva, High Commissioners to Malaysia and South Africa and Ambassadors to Belgium (de facto representative to the European Union) Germany, Indonesia and Saudi Arabia.

    Education – Since colonial times, teaching was a job Indians were traditionally involved in. In 2006, Indians remained well represented in the teaching service. In March 2007, the Singapore Government Directory Interactive website showed that 13.3% of primary school principals were Indian, as were 10.3% of secondary school principals. Indians also head prominent higher education schools and think tanks, including the NUS Faculty of Engineering, Institute of Policy Studies, Institute of South Asian Studies, Institute of Southeast Asian Studies and Lee Kuan Yew School of Public Policy.

    You’re welcome Thulean Friend 😉

  6. AP says:
    @Vishnugupta
    A few points about Indian American IQ.

    1.The super high figures quoted are not to the best of my knowledge derived from a statistically valid sample. It is not like these IQ figures are derived from the PISA scores of all Indian American participants. That would be a legit IQ estimate.

    2.The caste breakup of Indian Americans is 20 % Brahmin,40% upper caste(including Brahmins) , 50% middle castes and 10% Dalits. So whatever the legit IQ of this group is it isn't because this is a large mostly Brahmin expat community as many on this forum seem to think.

    Replies: @AP, @Thulean Friend

    .The caste breakup of Indian Americans is 20 % Brahmin,40% upper caste(including Brahmins) , 50% middle castes and 10% Dalits

    I thought it was much higher than that ( the article I linked to claims 90% belong to upper castes). Still, 40% upper caste would still skew the results in terms of average IQ. Furthermore, even the middle and lower caste people are still well filtered when they come to the USA, we aren’t getting poor illiterate peasants.

    Amusingly, American civil rights laws don’t cover caste discrimination and there is a lot of discrimination against Dalits in the USA by their upper-caste brethren. Some of these people who oppress the Dalits also support Black Lives Matter, aping their wealthy white peers.

    https://www.trtworld.com/magazine/a-silicon-valley-lawsuit-reveals-caste-discrimination-is-rife-in-the-us-39773

    • Replies: @Mr. XYZ
    @AP


    Amusingly, American civil rights laws don’t cover caste discrimination and there is a lot of discrimination against Dalits in the USA by their upper-caste brethren. Some of these people who oppress the Dalits also support Black Lives Matter, aping their wealthy white peers.
     
    It's an EXTREMELY shitty move to support BL(D)M while also supporting Dalit discrimination!
    , @Dmitry
    @AP

    Ignoring some things like the visa lottery, USA has mostly a selective immigration regime with countries like India and China.

    Therefore, Indian and Chinese immigrants in the USA, are not representative of the normal people in those countries, but will be selections of families with disproportionately middle class values.

    But because of American cultural power, the behaviours of the sample of people which is selected by America's immigration system, is often projected as being representative of those nationalities as a whole.

    For example, Chinese Americans are projected as middle class nerds by the American media. Whereas Chinese people you see in the rest of the world are often tough looking, proletariat or peasant personalities.

    It's because America's immigration regime selects for middle class nerds from China and India, while it has more open borders with Latin America (therefore selecting more more peasant and proletarian Latinos).


    average IQ.
     
    "IQ tests" measures often the cultural conformity of the students to the test designers' culture (although it might also filter away people with mental issues like ADD). The questions themselves often do not have an objective correct answer, so you have to be quite acculturated to them, to know which one to select .

    America's selective immigration system is choosing disproportionately people from international educations, people who can navigate the paperwork of immigration, etc, so these cultural abilities might correlate with being able to navigate "IQ tests", which is a similar kind of paperwork.


    discrimination against Dalits in the USA by their upper-caste brethren
     
    Less than in America, I think many Indians and Chinese in Western Europe, are not from any special classes, and numerically most will not be like Imran Khan or Gangdi type of upper class elite. Indians have had times of not very selective immigration to countries like the United Kingdom, where they arrived as working class people.

    Yet if you look in the elite universities in Great Britain (and therefore the most educated people of the world), there are nowadays very high levels of Indian and Chinese students there.

    So, the next generation of middle class people in UK, will have disproportionately high levels of Indians and Chinese in it, and many of those might have been of peasant origin just a few generations ago (and could have been hired by the English as almost slave workers).

    -
    More generally, there is a view in this forum that the development level of different countries is a reflection of the natural human capital level of those countries. But history would make no sense, under this assumption.

    There are places today which majority "third world" human capital levels like Israel, Singapore, Hong Kong, that we can watch climbing into the first world within living memory (or in the 2020s/2030s as we watch in Israel's case, while Singapore and Hong Kong were already climbing into first world in the 1990), as a result of political stability or the basis of a modern English-originated legal system. This is while the majority of their population would have been considered to be primitive peasants three generations ago.

    And there are places like Buenos Aires and Lvov, which had the world's highest human capital and cultural/intellectual achievements less than century ago (until the mid-20th century: Lvov school of mathematics, the literary culture that created Borges, etc,), and where despite a high human capital population, can fall into multigenerations of decline as a result of political vicissitudes.

  7. @Vishnugupta
    A few points about Indian American IQ.

    1.The super high figures quoted are not to the best of my knowledge derived from a statistically valid sample. It is not like these IQ figures are derived from the PISA scores of all Indian American participants. That would be a legit IQ estimate.

    2.The caste breakup of Indian Americans is 20 % Brahmin,40% upper caste(including Brahmins) , 50% middle castes and 10% Dalits. So whatever the legit IQ of this group is it isn't because this is a large mostly Brahmin expat community as many on this forum seem to think.

    Replies: @AP, @Thulean Friend

    The caste breakup of Indian Americans is 20 % Brahmin,40% upper caste(including Brahmins), 50% middle castes and 10% Dalits.

    Final proof that you don’t know much about these matters. Razib Khan, who knows more about Indian-American demographics than almost anyone on the planet, estimates dalits to be at most 1% of the total Indian-American population. You’re “only” off by an order of a magnitude.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @Thulean Friend

    Thought that you advocated the idea that caste is just a prejudice? Doesn't such an imbalance seem hard to explain, with such a theory?

    Replies: @Thulean Friend

    , @AP
    @Thulean Friend

    This would match my anecdotal knowledge of the dozen or so Indians (or adjacent) I’ve known. Everyone has been Brahmin, except for a general’s daughter, and a colleague who comes from a wealthy Christian family in Kerala. Without exception nice and gracious towards colleagues and peers, but I’ve heard that some of them behave with open contempt towards those they perceive as underlings (I have seen something similar from a rich Russian friend towards waiters or store clerks).

    In Nepal the upper castes are Indo-Aryans while lower castes are Tibetan-Asians. I know an immigrant Brahmin Nepalese family that was in crisis when their kid was dating a much wealthier Japanese kid. In their view, East Asians by default were of lower caste and therefore this relationship was a source of shame.

    Replies: @Blinky Bill, @Ludwig, @AltanBakshi

  8. Long time lurker of East Asian descent here; this sounds about right. It confirms my biases, and what I have long since suspected. It is a hillarious meme that the Chinese, who make up 4% of Canadians, basically don’t show up in politics at all, whilst the Sikhs, who make up less than 1%, are 25% of our current ministers in Parliament! Even ignoring that on cope-fuelled ‘it’s SJWism!’ To explain why Sikhs are so insanely overrepresented, I can’t help but notice that a stunning number of political candidates, even in the Conservative and even some far-right parties, are Sikh.

    I am less certain on whether or not this is a race feature as opposed to simple upbringing, although I could not be surprised if it was. Second, third, fourth, and fifth gen East Asians rarely are seen bickering on some issue (besides family) and yelling at each other on the street, unlike Indians. Although second, third, and fourth gen Indians also seem to tone it down, and Canadians in general are more soft spoken than Americans, so… take that as you will.

    • Replies: @unam
    @Long time lurker

    Sikhs aren't very bright. They are more fighters / combative in general. Although there are other non-sikh indians that are similary. Sikhs tend to be physically bigger as well.

    , @Almost Missouri
    @Long time lurker

    Wait, Canada has "far-right parties"?

    Replies: @Long term lurker

  9. @Long time lurker
    Long time lurker of East Asian descent here; this sounds about right. It confirms my biases, and what I have long since suspected. It is a hillarious meme that the Chinese, who make up 4% of Canadians, basically don't show up in politics at all, whilst the Sikhs, who make up less than 1%, are 25% of our current ministers in Parliament! Even ignoring that on cope-fuelled 'it's SJWism!' To explain why Sikhs are so insanely overrepresented, I can't help but notice that a stunning number of political candidates, even in the Conservative and even some far-right parties, are Sikh.

    I am less certain on whether or not this is a race feature as opposed to simple upbringing, although I could not be surprised if it was. Second, third, fourth, and fifth gen East Asians rarely are seen bickering on some issue (besides family) and yelling at each other on the street, unlike Indians. Although second, third, and fourth gen Indians also seem to tone it down, and Canadians in general are more soft spoken than Americans, so... take that as you will.

    Replies: @unam, @Almost Missouri

    Sikhs aren’t very bright. They are more fighters / combative in general. Although there are other non-sikh indians that are similary. Sikhs tend to be physically bigger as well.

  10. @Thulean Friend
    @Vishnugupta


    The caste breakup of Indian Americans is 20 % Brahmin,40% upper caste(including Brahmins), 50% middle castes and 10% Dalits.
     
    Final proof that you don't know much about these matters. Razib Khan, who knows more about Indian-American demographics than almost anyone on the planet, estimates dalits to be at most 1% of the total Indian-American population. You're "only" off by an order of a magnitude.

    Replies: @songbird, @AP

    Thought that you advocated the idea that caste is just a prejudice? Doesn’t such an imbalance seem hard to explain, with such a theory?

    • Replies: @Thulean Friend
    @songbird

    Why would it be hard to explain the imbalance? Dalits are very poor. In a previous debate about the farm laws in India, I noted in passing that the Sikh victimhood patrol (invariably Jatts) overlook the fact that Dalits are ~1/3rd of Punjab's population but control <2% of the land. The point was to highlight that the protestors were anything but "poor" and the chimpout was one of unearned privilege rather than desperation.

    Dalits are very economically disadvantaged in India, so it stands to reason that their share of the Indian-American population (arguably the most elite in the world, save perhaps the Indo-Australian one) would be far lower than their national share back home.

    Replies: @Blinky Bill, @songbird

  11. AP says:
    @Thulean Friend
    @Vishnugupta


    The caste breakup of Indian Americans is 20 % Brahmin,40% upper caste(including Brahmins), 50% middle castes and 10% Dalits.
     
    Final proof that you don't know much about these matters. Razib Khan, who knows more about Indian-American demographics than almost anyone on the planet, estimates dalits to be at most 1% of the total Indian-American population. You're "only" off by an order of a magnitude.

    Replies: @songbird, @AP

    This would match my anecdotal knowledge of the dozen or so Indians (or adjacent) I’ve known. Everyone has been Brahmin, except for a general’s daughter, and a colleague who comes from a wealthy Christian family in Kerala. Without exception nice and gracious towards colleagues and peers, but I’ve heard that some of them behave with open contempt towards those they perceive as underlings (I have seen something similar from a rich Russian friend towards waiters or store clerks).

    In Nepal the upper castes are Indo-Aryans while lower castes are Tibetan-Asians. I know an immigrant Brahmin Nepalese family that was in crisis when their kid was dating a much wealthier Japanese kid. In their view, East Asians by default were of lower caste and therefore this relationship was a source of shame.

    • Replies: @Blinky Bill
    @AP


    I know an immigrant Brahmin Nepalese family that was in crisis when their kid was dating a much wealthier Japanese kid. In their view, East Asians by default were of lower caste and therefore this relationship was a source of shame.
     
    Who was male/female in the pairing?

    Replies: @AP

    , @Ludwig
    @AP


    In Nepal the upper castes are Indo-Aryans while lower castes are Tibetan-Asians. I know an immigrant Brahmin Nepalese family that was in crisis when their kid was dating a much wealthier Japanese kid. In their view, East Asians by default were of lower caste and therefore this relationship was a source of shame.
     
    I have a few personal knowledge data points here which I think I can say might extrapolates out.

    One is an Indian American woman, a South Indian Brahmin, and a successful executive in a Wall St firm who married a Han Chinese whose parents were born in Hong Kong and migrated to Canada - to escape in part discrimination from both richer Hans and Cantonese it seems - where he was born and he himself migrated to US where he was working on Wall St and met this woman. The woman is much more the loquacious one and the decision maker of the couple while the husband is quieter and seemingly more complacent and docile. Both sets of parents are well educated, with the Chinese parent a PhD in academia while the Indian parent is a top executive in a multi-National global commodities firm. In terms of approval from what I gather from the couple, the Chinese parents mildly preferred a Chinese wife for their son but mostly indifferent. The Indian parents would have preferred someone from their own community but accepted the marriage and last heard were happy especially with the arrival of a grandchild.

    There was another case I encountered where an urban South Indian Brahmin man married an urban North Indian Punjabi woman from the “Warrior” caste. Both were highly educated and had emigrated to the US. Apparently there was some initial disquiet in both the families when the alliance was first announced. Generally North Indians - especially from Punjab who are typically light skinned and more Pathan looking (as she indeed was) having on average been later migrations to the Indian subcontinent with little mixture of the existing native population from earlier migrations - looked down on South Indians who were seen as more “native” or having more ancient blood (many hill tribes in the South India, like the Aborigines in Australia, or the Ainu in Japan, are ancient populations). Meanwhile the South Indian Brahmin parents being more conservative also were disquieted by the woman from being a “lower” caste (though the Warrior caste - the Nobility - is not so much vertically down from the Brahmin - the Priest - class as much as slanted if you will). Still the marriage apparently went off without a hitch (despite awkward ritualistic differences between the cultures that were quite interesting to learn about).
    , @AltanBakshi
    @AP


    In Nepal the upper castes are Indo-Aryans while lower castes are Tibetan-Asians.
     
    Gurkhas, the traditional military elite and founders of Nepal are more "mongoloid" than Caucasian in their features. Most of farmers and poor labourers in Nepal are from the southern border of Nepal, the region bordering India is called Terai, and folks from there have almost no influence on Nepali politics, even though they make something like 40% of population, they are most Indo-Aryan of all Nepalis, so I don't know what tall tales you have heard from these "Nepali" or Terai Madhesi Brahmins.

    Then there are Newari people, who are the founders of Nepali culture and architecture. Their language is relative of Tibetan and they are the most educated and economically powerful ethnic group in Nepal, and they definitely have mixed Indo-Aryan and East Asian heritage.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newar_people


    Newars have continued their age-old traditions and practices and pride themselves as the true custodians of the religion, culture and civilisation of Nepal.[7] Newars are known for their contributions to culture, art and literature, trade, agriculture and cuisine.[8] Today, they consistently rank as the most economically, politically and socially advanced community of Nepal, according to the annual Human Development Index published by UNDP
     
    Good folks, I know some of them, one of the few people who are still genuinely Hindu-Buddhist, what happened to us? 2000 years ago we were all one Great Dharma community, and not this or that.... I think there was one famous Keralite who with his followers made our divisions grow wider than ever before....

    Replies: @Blinky Bill

  12. it’s very likely more of a Caucasian/Mongoloid difference.

    I wonder if this would be true for Mongolians.

    On the one hand, they lived in a pretty harsh environment, which would be higher on the spectrum of harsh environments than many East Asians. On the other, it was a herding culture, and they are more known for their historical militancy. Was Genghis Khan soft-spoken? I guess it is possible. What is the typical Han-Mongolian interaction today?

    Same question for Eskimos, who were hunters.
    _____
    I think Indian assertiveness is explained by the different castes interacting with each other. IMO, there’s no way that you can enforce cleanliness laws against low castes, without being assertive. It is basically the same reason why Jews are assertive – you need to be assertive I order to maintain the distinctiveness of your own group over hundreds of years in a mixed society.

    Some African peoples seem to have or have had castes too (for instance the Tuareg), but it is harder to read about them. I suspect that the assertiveness of some Africans comes from caste.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    @songbird

    Not sure to what extent I buy into his multitude of highly original theories, but Twitter blogger Uriah has some interesting speculations on Mongols:



    https://twitter.com/crimkadid/status/1278103799622705152

    https://twitter.com/crimkadid/status/1266607728543379456

    https://twitter.com/crimkadid/status/1266608162712571904

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh

  13. This could also explain why Indians in Singapore caught up to 90% of ethnic Chinese incomes in Singapore by 1990, well before the wave of skilled Indians truly took off in earnest to the island.

    People are paid according to their marginal product. The correlation with intelligence is non-trivial but still “only” ~25% in the literature. Everything from health, social skills to sheer luck (being born in the right country makes a lot of difference) factors in.

    More speculatively, there could be a trade-off between character traits that helps you in your personal life vs what’s good for the nation as a whole. A lot of argumentation, even if done by smart people, can cripple a collective if excessive. You need the people below deck to be largely conformist once management have made up their minds, yet not stifle debate too much to prevent course correction. It’s a tricky balance. This could explain why even countries like Philippines or Indonesia (typically not stereotyped as smarter than Indians, unlike Chinese) have done better than India. South-East Asians may be less interesting, but their more mellow nature allows easier development on a national scale, ceteris paribus.

    For example, I’ve long noticed that Iranians have done much better in Sweden than their demographics would suggest, even accounting for the fact that we took in a large part of their upper-middle class elite in the 70s and 80s. There seems to be a “mercantile temperament” at play here. Pushy minority groups can often do well in countries with a “flexible majority” but left to their own devices, they tend to do less well, as coordination problems beset them. Some may point to Jews as an exception to this rule, but Ashkenazi Jews are often stereotyped as “stiff” by the Mizrahis. At any rate, the highest-earning religious demographic in Israel are Christians.

    If you take Charles Murray’s Human Accomplishment book seriously – and I do – then it isn’t clear that Indian verbiosity paid off. In his chapter on philosophy, Indians don’t do radically better than Chinese. Both give a rather poor showing. Given that India has been the birthplace of plenty more religions, and that lots of philosophical thinking is embedded in these texts, he may be underestimating them. Still, worth pondering about.

    • Replies: @128
    @Thulean Friend

    Or maybe they are productive in hot air production, instead of really being productive?

    , @Some Guy
    @Thulean Friend


    People are paid according to their marginal product.
     
    There should be a comparative advantage for minorities in that they can focus on their relative strengths, whereas the majority will saturate the fields they're strong in and be forced to diversify their occupations into areas they're mediocre in. The average East Asian in the west might make it into STEM, but that's impossible in East Asia, leading to a crazy arms race of studying to get into those schools. (Economists: don't become "comparative advantage HBDers", trying to determine the optimal racial mix to maximize GDP while autistically ignoring social consequences)

    Something I just realized is that since group differences are strongest in the tails of a distribution, and the more populous the country is the more competitive it is to get to the very top, then more populous countries should have more unrepresentative elites given equal diversity, perhaps causing more racial resentment and conflict. Anti-semitism = biggest in populous countries?

    For example, to be among the 100 best in some trait in a country of 10 million you have to be 4.27 SD above the mean, whereas in a country of 330 million you have to be 5 SD above the mean to achieve that. Assuming there's a minority 1 SD above the mean in that trait, they will be over-represented in the top 100 by a factor 55 in the first country and a factor of 110 in the second. (Not taking into account that the minority would by itself increase the threshold to get into the top 100 depending on the size of that minority, further increasing that minority's over-representation.)

    Comparative advantage presumably applies to criminality too. If 0.1% of the population can make a living selling drugs for example, then a larger proportion of blacks in the US can do that compared to blacks in a black country.

    More speculatively, there could be a trade-off between character traits that helps you in your personal life vs what’s good for the nation as a whole.
     
    Altruism is certainly one, except if it leads to "invite the world"-policies of course. Honesty presumably another.

    The Philippines and Indonesia does have a higher average IQ than India btw(https://preview.redd.it/uqkx37h3dq831.jpg?width=960&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=b5611f621117fd4e42900828e2a42b62a02f013b).
  14. @AP
    @Thulean Friend

    This would match my anecdotal knowledge of the dozen or so Indians (or adjacent) I’ve known. Everyone has been Brahmin, except for a general’s daughter, and a colleague who comes from a wealthy Christian family in Kerala. Without exception nice and gracious towards colleagues and peers, but I’ve heard that some of them behave with open contempt towards those they perceive as underlings (I have seen something similar from a rich Russian friend towards waiters or store clerks).

    In Nepal the upper castes are Indo-Aryans while lower castes are Tibetan-Asians. I know an immigrant Brahmin Nepalese family that was in crisis when their kid was dating a much wealthier Japanese kid. In their view, East Asians by default were of lower caste and therefore this relationship was a source of shame.

    Replies: @Blinky Bill, @Ludwig, @AltanBakshi

    [MORE]

    I know an immigrant Brahmin Nepalese family that was in crisis when their kid was dating a much wealthier Japanese kid. In their view, East Asians by default were of lower caste and therefore this relationship was a source of shame.

    Who was male/female in the pairing?

    • Replies: @AP
    @Blinky Bill

    I’ve forgotten, it happened years ago and I haven’t seen this family for several years.



    One of my kids was friends with one of their kids. The Nepalese were Brahmins, but fairly poor off the boaters in this country, while the Japanese was from a wealthy family. The reaction to this relationship was akin to say, a white Southern family of the 1950s of modest means having a kid date a wealthy educated person from Africa. They really didn’t want those lower caste features entering the family line.

    Replies: @Blinky Bill

  15. @songbird
    @Thulean Friend

    Thought that you advocated the idea that caste is just a prejudice? Doesn't such an imbalance seem hard to explain, with such a theory?

    Replies: @Thulean Friend

    Why would it be hard to explain the imbalance? Dalits are very poor. In a previous debate about the farm laws in India, I noted in passing that the Sikh victimhood patrol (invariably Jatts) overlook the fact that Dalits are ~1/3rd of Punjab’s population but control <2% of the land. The point was to highlight that the protestors were anything but "poor" and the chimpout was one of unearned privilege rather than desperation.

    Dalits are very economically disadvantaged in India, so it stands to reason that their share of the Indian-American population (arguably the most elite in the world, save perhaps the Indo-Australian one) would be far lower than their national share back home.

    • Replies: @Blinky Bill
    @Thulean Friend


    arguably the most elite in the world, save perhaps the Indo-Australian one
     
    Yevardian reading this.


    https://media.tenor.com/images/5126fda32e2687e6d2f5e9e92a2cdd09/tenor.gif
    , @songbird
    @Thulean Friend

    Makes me wonder about internet penetration for each group and how it might effect the Indian net and India itself. The question seems to be: will Indian politics shift as more Dalits get online?

    Replies: @Vishnugupta

  16. @Thulean Friend
    @songbird

    Why would it be hard to explain the imbalance? Dalits are very poor. In a previous debate about the farm laws in India, I noted in passing that the Sikh victimhood patrol (invariably Jatts) overlook the fact that Dalits are ~1/3rd of Punjab's population but control <2% of the land. The point was to highlight that the protestors were anything but "poor" and the chimpout was one of unearned privilege rather than desperation.

    Dalits are very economically disadvantaged in India, so it stands to reason that their share of the Indian-American population (arguably the most elite in the world, save perhaps the Indo-Australian one) would be far lower than their national share back home.

    Replies: @Blinky Bill, @songbird

    arguably the most elite in the world, save perhaps the Indo-Australian one

    Yevardian reading this.

    [MORE]

  17. AP says:
    @Blinky Bill
    @AP


    I know an immigrant Brahmin Nepalese family that was in crisis when their kid was dating a much wealthier Japanese kid. In their view, East Asians by default were of lower caste and therefore this relationship was a source of shame.
     
    Who was male/female in the pairing?

    Replies: @AP

    I’ve forgotten, it happened years ago and I haven’t seen this family for several years.

    [MORE]

    One of my kids was friends with one of their kids. The Nepalese were Brahmins, but fairly poor off the boaters in this country, while the Japanese was from a wealthy family. The reaction to this relationship was akin to say, a white Southern family of the 1950s of modest means having a kid date a wealthy educated person from Africa. They really didn’t want those lower caste features entering the family line.

    • LOL: Blinky Bill
    • Replies: @Blinky Bill
    @AP

    Correction.


    The reaction to this relationship was akin to say, a white Southern family of the 1950s of modest means having a kid date a wealthy educated person from Wakanda . They really didn’t want those lower caste features entering the family line.
     


    https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT0GrkDvLduvWaspVIvLKAw2tdrfBmhr2j0tA&usqp.jpg


    https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRfCVrjcIIb81lJNs-J3m2OmFS0dUq-s-hYiw&usqp.jpg

     

  18. @songbird

    it’s very likely more of a Caucasian/Mongoloid difference.
     
    I wonder if this would be true for Mongolians.

    On the one hand, they lived in a pretty harsh environment, which would be higher on the spectrum of harsh environments than many East Asians. On the other, it was a herding culture, and they are more known for their historical militancy. Was Genghis Khan soft-spoken? I guess it is possible. What is the typical Han-Mongolian interaction today?

    Same question for Eskimos, who were hunters.
    _____
    I think Indian assertiveness is explained by the different castes interacting with each other. IMO, there's no way that you can enforce cleanliness laws against low castes, without being assertive. It is basically the same reason why Jews are assertive - you need to be assertive I order to maintain the distinctiveness of your own group over hundreds of years in a mixed society.

    Some African peoples seem to have or have had castes too (for instance the Tuareg), but it is harder to read about them. I suspect that the assertiveness of some Africans comes from caste.

    Replies: @Anatoly Karlin

    Not sure to what extent I buy into his multitude of highly original theories, but Twitter blogger Uriah has some interesting speculations on Mongols:

    [MORE]

    • Thanks: songbird, AltanBakshi
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    @Anatoly Karlin

    I need to find his "milky perfect skin" Japanese rant. Pure beauty.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh

  19. @AP
    @Blinky Bill

    I’ve forgotten, it happened years ago and I haven’t seen this family for several years.



    One of my kids was friends with one of their kids. The Nepalese were Brahmins, but fairly poor off the boaters in this country, while the Japanese was from a wealthy family. The reaction to this relationship was akin to say, a white Southern family of the 1950s of modest means having a kid date a wealthy educated person from Africa. They really didn’t want those lower caste features entering the family line.

    Replies: @Blinky Bill

    Correction.

    [MORE]

    The reaction to this relationship was akin to say, a white Southern family of the 1950s of modest means having a kid date a wealthy educated person from Wakanda . They really didn’t want those lower caste features entering the family line.

  20. @Anatoly Karlin
    @songbird

    Not sure to what extent I buy into his multitude of highly original theories, but Twitter blogger Uriah has some interesting speculations on Mongols:



    https://twitter.com/crimkadid/status/1278103799622705152

    https://twitter.com/crimkadid/status/1266607728543379456

    https://twitter.com/crimkadid/status/1266608162712571904

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    I need to find his “milky perfect skin” Japanese rant. Pure beauty.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    @Daniel Chieh

    He just did it for me!

    https://twitter.com/crimkadid/status/1265305840162082816

    Replies: @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms, @Svevlad

  21. @Thulean Friend
    This could also explain why Indians in Singapore caught up to 90% of ethnic Chinese incomes in Singapore by 1990, well before the wave of skilled Indians truly took off in earnest to the island.

    People are paid according to their marginal product. The correlation with intelligence is non-trivial but still "only" ~25% in the literature. Everything from health, social skills to sheer luck (being born in the right country makes a lot of difference) factors in.

    More speculatively, there could be a trade-off between character traits that helps you in your personal life vs what's good for the nation as a whole. A lot of argumentation, even if done by smart people, can cripple a collective if excessive. You need the people below deck to be largely conformist once management have made up their minds, yet not stifle debate too much to prevent course correction. It's a tricky balance. This could explain why even countries like Philippines or Indonesia (typically not stereotyped as smarter than Indians, unlike Chinese) have done better than India. South-East Asians may be less interesting, but their more mellow nature allows easier development on a national scale, ceteris paribus.

    For example, I've long noticed that Iranians have done much better in Sweden than their demographics would suggest, even accounting for the fact that we took in a large part of their upper-middle class elite in the 70s and 80s. There seems to be a "mercantile temperament" at play here. Pushy minority groups can often do well in countries with a "flexible majority" but left to their own devices, they tend to do less well, as coordination problems beset them. Some may point to Jews as an exception to this rule, but Ashkenazi Jews are often stereotyped as "stiff" by the Mizrahis. At any rate, the highest-earning religious demographic in Israel are Christians.


    If you take Charles Murray's Human Accomplishment book seriously - and I do - then it isn't clear that Indian verbiosity paid off. In his chapter on philosophy, Indians don't do radically better than Chinese. Both give a rather poor showing. Given that India has been the birthplace of plenty more religions, and that lots of philosophical thinking is embedded in these texts, he may be underestimating them. Still, worth pondering about.

    Replies: @128, @Some Guy

    Or maybe they are productive in hot air production, instead of really being productive?

  22. Actually the IQ of Mongolians is 100.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @128

    Later estimate brings it down to 95, I think. Not necessarily the top Flynn-effect level, though.

    Replies: @128, @Some Guy

  23. @Thulean Friend
    @songbird

    Why would it be hard to explain the imbalance? Dalits are very poor. In a previous debate about the farm laws in India, I noted in passing that the Sikh victimhood patrol (invariably Jatts) overlook the fact that Dalits are ~1/3rd of Punjab's population but control <2% of the land. The point was to highlight that the protestors were anything but "poor" and the chimpout was one of unearned privilege rather than desperation.

    Dalits are very economically disadvantaged in India, so it stands to reason that their share of the Indian-American population (arguably the most elite in the world, save perhaps the Indo-Australian one) would be far lower than their national share back home.

    Replies: @Blinky Bill, @songbird

    Makes me wonder about internet penetration for each group and how it might effect the Indian net and India itself. The question seems to be: will Indian politics shift as more Dalits get online?

    • Replies: @Vishnugupta
    @songbird

    The key digital divide issue is English language proficiency not internet access which thanks to smartphones ( 750 million+ active smartphones) and the cheapest mobile data rates in the world(1 month unlimited talk 25 GB data plan costs $3) is very wide spread.

    Only about 10% of the Indian population understand English well enough to read an article online form an opinion and write comments.
    Still almost all quality content from India on the net is in English.

    Though 70% of Indians can understand Hindi the Hindi content is almost never read outside the core Hindi speaking belt accounting for around 30% of Indians .Other vernacular languages and often the associated scripts change every few hundred kilometers.

    Replies: @songbird, @Reg Cæsar

  24. Interesting how people refuse to consider nepotism as a factor instead of IQ. If this is true why aren’t WASPs as overrepresented as Jews, considering that Episcopalians actually have a slightly higher IQ than Jews?

    • Agree: Pop Warner, EldnahYm
  25. @128
    Actually the IQ of Mongolians is 100.

    Replies: @songbird

    Later estimate brings it down to 95, I think. Not necessarily the top Flynn-effect level, though.

    • Replies: @128
    @songbird

    Per capita GDP in Mongolia is 4000 USD per capita, twice that of Vietnam, and more than some Balkan countries, so the Flynn effect should be visible already.

    Replies: @songbird

    , @Some Guy
    @songbird

    IIRC Lynn's study of Mongolians in China found they had 5 points higher spatial IQ than neighboring Han Chinese, but 10 points lower verbal. However, he noted that Mongolians speak two languages, which may have hurt their verbal scores.

    Replies: @128

  26. @Daniel Chieh
    @Anatoly Karlin

    I need to find his "milky perfect skin" Japanese rant. Pure beauty.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    He just did it for me!

    • Replies: @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms
    @Daniel Chieh

    Here’s an even better one
    https://twitter.com/crimkadid/status/1265306854940442624?s=20

    Problem with citing these stats is that it assumes normal distribution when reality could have heavy tails (kurtosis) or jumps (jump diffusion)

    Replies: @Bill

    , @Svevlad
    @Daniel Chieh

    doesn't this fall into the water when you go back to the era before 1945 and especially so before the Meiji restoration?

    They were Balkan tier violent ffs.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh

  27. @songbird
    @128

    Later estimate brings it down to 95, I think. Not necessarily the top Flynn-effect level, though.

    Replies: @128, @Some Guy

    Per capita GDP in Mongolia is 4000 USD per capita, twice that of Vietnam, and more than some Balkan countries, so the Flynn effect should be visible already.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @128

    Ulaanbaatar was one of the cities considered for the Trump-Kim summit, but they chose Singapore for the first one in 2018 and then Hanoi for the next one in 2019.

    But I think Mongolia has a development problem because it is landlocked.

    Replies: @Svevlad

  28. So why aren’t white WASPs are overrepresented among the elite based on their IQ?

  29. @Thulean Friend
    This could also explain why Indians in Singapore caught up to 90% of ethnic Chinese incomes in Singapore by 1990, well before the wave of skilled Indians truly took off in earnest to the island.

    People are paid according to their marginal product. The correlation with intelligence is non-trivial but still "only" ~25% in the literature. Everything from health, social skills to sheer luck (being born in the right country makes a lot of difference) factors in.

    More speculatively, there could be a trade-off between character traits that helps you in your personal life vs what's good for the nation as a whole. A lot of argumentation, even if done by smart people, can cripple a collective if excessive. You need the people below deck to be largely conformist once management have made up their minds, yet not stifle debate too much to prevent course correction. It's a tricky balance. This could explain why even countries like Philippines or Indonesia (typically not stereotyped as smarter than Indians, unlike Chinese) have done better than India. South-East Asians may be less interesting, but their more mellow nature allows easier development on a national scale, ceteris paribus.

    For example, I've long noticed that Iranians have done much better in Sweden than their demographics would suggest, even accounting for the fact that we took in a large part of their upper-middle class elite in the 70s and 80s. There seems to be a "mercantile temperament" at play here. Pushy minority groups can often do well in countries with a "flexible majority" but left to their own devices, they tend to do less well, as coordination problems beset them. Some may point to Jews as an exception to this rule, but Ashkenazi Jews are often stereotyped as "stiff" by the Mizrahis. At any rate, the highest-earning religious demographic in Israel are Christians.


    If you take Charles Murray's Human Accomplishment book seriously - and I do - then it isn't clear that Indian verbiosity paid off. In his chapter on philosophy, Indians don't do radically better than Chinese. Both give a rather poor showing. Given that India has been the birthplace of plenty more religions, and that lots of philosophical thinking is embedded in these texts, he may be underestimating them. Still, worth pondering about.

    Replies: @128, @Some Guy

    People are paid according to their marginal product.

    There should be a comparative advantage for minorities in that they can focus on their relative strengths, whereas the majority will saturate the fields they’re strong in and be forced to diversify their occupations into areas they’re mediocre in. The average East Asian in the west might make it into STEM, but that’s impossible in East Asia, leading to a crazy arms race of studying to get into those schools. (Economists: don’t become “comparative advantage HBDers”, trying to determine the optimal racial mix to maximize GDP while autistically ignoring social consequences)

    Something I just realized is that since group differences are strongest in the tails of a distribution, and the more populous the country is the more competitive it is to get to the very top, then more populous countries should have more unrepresentative elites given equal diversity, perhaps causing more racial resentment and conflict. Anti-semitism = biggest in populous countries?

    For example, to be among the 100 best in some trait in a country of 10 million you have to be 4.27 SD above the mean, whereas in a country of 330 million you have to be 5 SD above the mean to achieve that. Assuming there’s a minority 1 SD above the mean in that trait, they will be over-represented in the top 100 by a factor 55 in the first country and a factor of 110 in the second. (Not taking into account that the minority would by itself increase the threshold to get into the top 100 depending on the size of that minority, further increasing that minority’s over-representation.)

    Comparative advantage presumably applies to criminality too. If 0.1% of the population can make a living selling drugs for example, then a larger proportion of blacks in the US can do that compared to blacks in a black country.

    More speculatively, there could be a trade-off between character traits that helps you in your personal life vs what’s good for the nation as a whole.

    Altruism is certainly one, except if it leads to “invite the world”-policies of course. Honesty presumably another.

    The Philippines and Indonesia does have a higher average IQ than India btw(https://preview.redd.it/uqkx37h3dq831.jpg?width=960&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=b5611f621117fd4e42900828e2a42b62a02f013b).

  30. @songbird
    @128

    Later estimate brings it down to 95, I think. Not necessarily the top Flynn-effect level, though.

    Replies: @128, @Some Guy

    IIRC Lynn’s study of Mongolians in China found they had 5 points higher spatial IQ than neighboring Han Chinese, but 10 points lower verbal. However, he noted that Mongolians speak two languages, which may have hurt their verbal scores.

    • Thanks: songbird
    • Replies: @128
    @Some Guy

    Mongolians only speak 1 language in Mongolia.

  31. @Some Guy
    @songbird

    IIRC Lynn's study of Mongolians in China found they had 5 points higher spatial IQ than neighboring Han Chinese, but 10 points lower verbal. However, he noted that Mongolians speak two languages, which may have hurt their verbal scores.

    Replies: @128

    Mongolians only speak 1 language in Mongolia.

  32. I would agree that some behavioral or personality difference would explain the difference in representation of various groups for positions like CEO.

    However, I don’t think the “coffee salon” demographics you point to reflect the same difference that drives CEO demographics. The typical person that is into Transhumanism, Slatestarcodex, Less Wrong, the “Rationalist” community, etc., is not like the typical CEO. The typical person into the former is not very represented in upper management, executive levels of companies. And management/executive/CEO types who are into stuff like Burning Man are largely into it after it became more mainstream and celebrity-ized, and less like its original, nerdier, weirder incarnation. The typical CEO is not the type to be into the nerdy debate at Slatestarcodex, Less Wrong, etc., and while he may be a health/fitness nut who takes experimental drugs to extend or enhance lifespan, he’s not likely to be into Transhumanism as an intellectual ideology.

    CEOs are said to have more “psychopathic” traits than the general population, and these traits in a non-violent, non-dysfunctional form can greatly help one attain social success. Richard Lynn’s most recent book, “Race Differences in Psychopathic Personality”, points out that East Asians have the lowest rates of psychopathic personality, which would hinder them in ascending the corporate ladder.

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/jackmccullough/2019/12/09/the-psychopathic-ceo/

    The quote above could describe an ideal CEO. But it’s actually a portrait of a corporate psychopath, provided by a law enforcement official who declined to be identified because they weren’t authorized to publicly comment. People with psychopathy crave power and dominant positions, experts say. But they are also chameleons, able to disguise their ruthlessness and antisocial behavior under the veneer of charm and eloquence. In the most extreme, clinical, cases those traits have allowed serial killers to elude capture.

    But when it comes to the corporate world, non-violent, corporate psychopaths are not running from the law, but instead, rushing to the executive suite. One route to grabbing power for the highly intelligent psychopath is to climb the corporate ladder. There is a real chance that at some point a chief financial officer will be confronted with a psychopathic boss. Roughly 4% to as high as 12% of CEOs exhibit psychopathic traits, according to some expert estimates, many times more than the 1% rate found in the general population and more in line with the 15% rate found in prisons….

    “They are typically very charming on the surface, they are bold and not afraid,” says Karen Landay, a Ph.D. candidate in business management at University of Alabama. Earlier this year she co-authored a research report on psychopathy and leadership with her advisor, Associate Professor Peter Harms and Marcus Crede, a member of the psychology department at Iowa State University. “They don’t care that they are hurting you. They will do what they have to do.”

    Psychopaths are more closely related to sociopaths than to psychotics, because both are categorized as having antisocial personality disorders. In their ground-breaking 2006 book “Snakes in Suits,” Paul Babiak and Robert Hare were among the first to attempt to quantify the presence of corporate psychopaths in the C-suite. They estimated the rate of psychopathy in the executive suite to be 3.9%. Since the release of the book there has been much disagreement over the extent of the presence of psychopaths in corporate America with most other estimates landing between 8% and 12%.

    Landay says that over the course of her research she has found that there is no conclusive evidence indicating that a large percentage of CEOs are psychopaths. Her work did find, however, that people with psychopathic tendencies were slightly more likely to become leaders. People with these traits are good at “impression management” and know how to get people to like them, she says. Landay added that men were more likely than women to be rewarded for exhibiting psychopathic traits.

    “Clinical psychopathy is a personality disorder and that is something that is diagnosed by a medical doctor,” Landay says. “That is not what we are talking about when we are looking at psychopathic CEOs. We are just talking about people who have really, really crappy personalities,” who share some of the personality traits of psychopaths, including boldness, meanness and impulsivity. “Lack of empathy is definitely a hallmark trait,” she says.

    According to British psychologist Kevin Dutton, the top four career choices for psychopaths are CEO, attorney, media personality and salesperson.

  33. @128
    @songbird

    Per capita GDP in Mongolia is 4000 USD per capita, twice that of Vietnam, and more than some Balkan countries, so the Flynn effect should be visible already.

    Replies: @songbird

    Ulaanbaatar was one of the cities considered for the Trump-Kim summit, but they chose Singapore for the first one in 2018 and then Hanoi for the next one in 2019.

    But I think Mongolia has a development problem because it is landlocked.

    • Replies: @Svevlad
    @songbird

    Not just landlocked, but it's also probably one of the downright crappiest pieces of real estate on the planet.

    It's basically Siberia but also Kazakhstan, with all the drawbacks and none of the advantages.

    The Gobi makes a natural borderland. The USSR should have annexed the place, and kept it in Russia.

  34. @songbird
    @Thulean Friend

    Makes me wonder about internet penetration for each group and how it might effect the Indian net and India itself. The question seems to be: will Indian politics shift as more Dalits get online?

    Replies: @Vishnugupta

    The key digital divide issue is English language proficiency not internet access which thanks to smartphones ( 750 million+ active smartphones) and the cheapest mobile data rates in the world(1 month unlimited talk 25 GB data plan costs $3) is very wide spread.

    Only about 10% of the Indian population understand English well enough to read an article online form an opinion and write comments.
    Still almost all quality content from India on the net is in English.

    Though 70% of Indians can understand Hindi the Hindi content is almost never read outside the core Hindi speaking belt accounting for around 30% of Indians .Other vernacular languages and often the associated scripts change every few hundred kilometers.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @Vishnugupta


    The key digital divide issue is English language proficiency not internet access which thanks to smartphones
     
    What I was thinking is that smartphones would create a different dynamic than PCs, especially when considering language barriers. Ease of use is different - if you are translating something or typing a long response, it is easier to do on a PC. But maybe, the biases of phones would just increase influence rather than diminish it? I don't know.

    Interesting about the data - I didn't know it was that cheap.
    , @Reg Cæsar
    @Vishnugupta


    Other vernacular languages and often the associated scripts change every few hundred kilometers.
     
    But the kilometers themselves don't. People fight for their languages and faiths, but discard their measurements like candy wrappers.
  35. The East Asian-descended politician and businessman operating in the West whom I internally regard as archetypal are Andrew Yang and Binance CEO Changpeng Zhao.

    I like both of them and they are fun Twitter follows. But in both cases, their leadership/”assertiveness” comes off more as a penchant for whimsical trolling.

    In the case of Yang, his success seems largely due to having a large internet based base of support from nerdy types on places like Reddit. Typically, someone like Yang would have been ignored and dismissed, but the internet allowed a base of support for him to exist that consequently couldn’t be completely ignored by mainstream types and the media.

    I’ve noticed that the people who tend to dislike Yang the most and have the most contempt for him tend to be the more non-nerdy, socially dominant types who typically dominate and ascend to the top of real life social settings. They don’t really care about or hate him for his policies like UBI but rather because he’s an upstart who in normal, real world social settings would be the nerdy underling type who’d be controlled and surpassed for leadership roles.

  36. @Vishnugupta
    @songbird

    The key digital divide issue is English language proficiency not internet access which thanks to smartphones ( 750 million+ active smartphones) and the cheapest mobile data rates in the world(1 month unlimited talk 25 GB data plan costs $3) is very wide spread.

    Only about 10% of the Indian population understand English well enough to read an article online form an opinion and write comments.
    Still almost all quality content from India on the net is in English.

    Though 70% of Indians can understand Hindi the Hindi content is almost never read outside the core Hindi speaking belt accounting for around 30% of Indians .Other vernacular languages and often the associated scripts change every few hundred kilometers.

    Replies: @songbird, @Reg Cæsar

    The key digital divide issue is English language proficiency not internet access which thanks to smartphones

    What I was thinking is that smartphones would create a different dynamic than PCs, especially when considering language barriers. Ease of use is different – if you are translating something or typing a long response, it is easier to do on a PC. But maybe, the biases of phones would just increase influence rather than diminish it? I don’t know.

    Interesting about the data – I didn’t know it was that cheap.

  37. @melanf

    e.g. the earliest Chinese shaman-kings have Caucasian features)
     
    Does this claim have any reliable evidence, in the form of skeletons of early Chinese rulers found? As far as I know there are no such confirmations

    it’s very likely more of a Caucasian/Mongoloid difference
     
    To prove this, you need to show that numerous "non-Confucian" Mongoloids have the same characteristics

    Replies: @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

    This can’t be attested to one way or the other, based on current archaeology.

    Xia (22CE BC) and (Shang 16CE BC) are called dynasties but are really pre-history. So we don’t really know what they look like. Most likely Sino-Tibetan/Altaic, but who knows.

    We do know that the Shangs are very un-Confucian. E.g. a lot of wild crazy sex, and human sacrifices.

    Zhou and after are attest-ably northern Mongoloid
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terracotta_Army#Types_and_appearance

    Caucasoid features have been around since time immemorial. Just have gradually phase out as the center of Sino civilization transitioned from Northwest (near Xi’an) towards Southeast (Yangtze Delta)

    Sun Quan, one of the 3 Monarchs of the Three Kingdoms was cited as having blue eyes, so you guys can claim him. (Though he was not considered to be more non-conformist than Liu Bei and Cao Cao, the other two monarchs lol)

    小説『三国志演義』では、「碧眼紫髯 堂堂一表」と堂々とした風采の持ち主として描写されている[52]。「碧眼児」(水色瞳の童)と呼ばれる。
    In the novel “Romance of the Three Kingdoms”, it is described as the owner of a dignified appearance as “Blue-eyed Purple Beard Dodo Ichimoku” [52]. He is called a “blue-eyed child” (a child with light blue eyes).

    https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%AD%AB%E6%A8%A9#%E9%A2%A8%E8%B2%8C

    • Replies: @Boomthorkell
    @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

    It's sad how the Long March of History really just takes the fun out of things.

    If only we had 3 millennia of glorious Shang.

    , @melanf
    @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms


    Xia (22CE BC) and (Shang 16CE BC) are called dynasties but are really pre-history. So we don’t really know what they look like.
     
    Внешность легко восстанавливается по скелетам. Если бы элита прото-китайских царств была европидной мы бы об этом знали. По этому утверждение Карлина вероятно легенду
    The appearance is easily restored by skeletons. If the elite of the Proto-Chinese kingdoms were Europid, we would know about it. For this reason Carlin's statement is probably a legend
    , @AltanBakshi
    @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms


    We do know that the Shangs are very un-Confucian. E.g. a lot of wild crazy sex, and human sacrifices.
     
    Isn't that just possibly propaganda made by Zhou? Though there is some archeological evidence of mass animal sacrifices, I haven't heard of human cases, maybe rarely, but then even Romans practiced human sacrifice in some rare special situations when their country was in very dire straits.

    Replies: @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

  38. ah, it’s easier to explain than that.

    the upper class indians who show up in the US are pushy, social climbers, and even more ethnocentric than jews or koreans. once a single indian gets in a position of authority, the entire staff turns over to indian quickly.

    note that they don’t even change their names to American ones – even east asians do that. US born indians get indian names, US born chinese and korean guys get named David, James, and Steven.

    also, like Irish people, they see the US as an expression of British identity, specifically the English identity, and they hate it for historical reasons.

    it is true that indians are more social than east asians, who are mostly nerds. in an existing company, the nerds don’t become the next generation leaders most of the time.

    • Replies: @Znzn
    @prime noticer

    Where's Thomm? So Japs were lacking in assertiveness vs. Allied POWs?

    , @Daniel Chieh
    @prime noticer


    also, like Irish people, they see the US as an expression of British identity, specifically the English identity, and they hate it for historical reasons.
     
    The Irish are the final stand of implicit Anglo identity. Are they the only White people in the world?
    , @Mr. XYZ
    @prime noticer


    US born chinese and korean guys get named David, James, and Steven.
     
    "Sinhua? Oh, please, just call me April!"
    "Chingchong? Oh, please, just call me Michael!"
    "Daeguk? Oh, please, just call me Richard!"

    ;)

    , @Europe Europa
    @prime noticer

    In my experience the Irish hate Britain way more intensely than Indians do. Indians tend to have a fairly balanced view of the British Empire, as in some of it good, some of it bad. They don't really seem to hate British people, some even seem somewhat pro-British whereas pro-British Irish people seem to be almost non-existent, an Irish person who only mildly dislikes rather than despises the British is about as good as it gets.

    Whereas the Irish just have a one track mind view of British rule as one of blood thirsty murder and genocide, there's no nuance or balance in their view at all. A significant percentage of them seem to despise British people today just based on their perception of history. I find the Irish far more toxic and anti-British than Indians in general.

    Replies: @Beckow

  39. @Daniel Chieh
    @Daniel Chieh

    He just did it for me!

    https://twitter.com/crimkadid/status/1265305840162082816

    Replies: @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms, @Svevlad

    Here’s an even better one

    Problem with citing these stats is that it assumes normal distribution when reality could have heavy tails (kurtosis) or jumps (jump diffusion)

    • Replies: @Bill
    @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

    How does a comparison of two rates assume a normal distribution?

    Replies: @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

  40. How about age distribution by population per country? Also MEA and African migrants?

  41. Taiwanese and Koreans have higher homicide rates than Japan despite having old populations. And romance of the three kingdoms is innacurate, records of the three kingdoms is a lot more historical.

    • Replies: @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms
    @Znzn

    Sure, in Records of Three Kingdoms he’s cited on having „bright“ eyes, 目有精光
    https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%AD%99%E6%9D%83#cite_note-80

    Here’s the foremost Tang poet Li Bai, born in Kyrgyzstan, those eyes look pretty fair. He was definitely not conformist, and drank himself to death

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/dc/Libai_touxiang.jpg/412px-Libai_touxiang.jpg

    Replies: @Alfa158

  42. @prime noticer
    ah, it's easier to explain than that.

    the upper class indians who show up in the US are pushy, social climbers, and even more ethnocentric than jews or koreans. once a single indian gets in a position of authority, the entire staff turns over to indian quickly.

    note that they don't even change their names to American ones - even east asians do that. US born indians get indian names, US born chinese and korean guys get named David, James, and Steven.

    also, like Irish people, they see the US as an expression of British identity, specifically the English identity, and they hate it for historical reasons.

    it is true that indians are more social than east asians, who are mostly nerds. in an existing company, the nerds don't become the next generation leaders most of the time.

    Replies: @Znzn, @Daniel Chieh, @Mr. XYZ, @Europe Europa

    Where’s Thomm? So Japs were lacking in assertiveness vs. Allied POWs?

  43. @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms
    @melanf

    This can’t be attested to one way or the other, based on current archaeology.

    Xia (22CE BC) and (Shang 16CE BC) are called dynasties but are really pre-history. So we don’t really know what they look like. Most likely Sino-Tibetan/Altaic, but who knows.

    We do know that the Shangs are very un-Confucian. E.g. a lot of wild crazy sex, and human sacrifices.

    Zhou and after are attest-ably northern Mongoloid
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terracotta_Army#Types_and_appearance

    Caucasoid features have been around since time immemorial. Just have gradually phase out as the center of Sino civilization transitioned from Northwest (near Xi’an) towards Southeast (Yangtze Delta)

    Sun Quan, one of the 3 Monarchs of the Three Kingdoms was cited as having blue eyes, so you guys can claim him. (Though he was not considered to be more non-conformist than Liu Bei and Cao Cao, the other two monarchs lol)


    小説『三国志演義』では、「碧眼紫髯 堂堂一表」と堂々とした風采の持ち主として描写されている[52]。「碧眼児」(水色瞳の童)と呼ばれる。
    In the novel "Romance of the Three Kingdoms", it is described as the owner of a dignified appearance as "Blue-eyed Purple Beard Dodo Ichimoku" [52]. He is called a "blue-eyed child" (a child with light blue eyes).

     

    https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%AD%AB%E6%A8%A9#%E9%A2%A8%E8%B2%8C

    Replies: @Boomthorkell, @melanf, @AltanBakshi

    It’s sad how the Long March of History really just takes the fun out of things.

    If only we had 3 millennia of glorious Shang.

  44. @prime noticer
    ah, it's easier to explain than that.

    the upper class indians who show up in the US are pushy, social climbers, and even more ethnocentric than jews or koreans. once a single indian gets in a position of authority, the entire staff turns over to indian quickly.

    note that they don't even change their names to American ones - even east asians do that. US born indians get indian names, US born chinese and korean guys get named David, James, and Steven.

    also, like Irish people, they see the US as an expression of British identity, specifically the English identity, and they hate it for historical reasons.

    it is true that indians are more social than east asians, who are mostly nerds. in an existing company, the nerds don't become the next generation leaders most of the time.

    Replies: @Znzn, @Daniel Chieh, @Mr. XYZ, @Europe Europa

    also, like Irish people, they see the US as an expression of British identity, specifically the English identity, and they hate it for historical reasons.

    The Irish are the final stand of implicit Anglo identity. Are they the only White people in the world?

  45. @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms
    @melanf

    This can’t be attested to one way or the other, based on current archaeology.

    Xia (22CE BC) and (Shang 16CE BC) are called dynasties but are really pre-history. So we don’t really know what they look like. Most likely Sino-Tibetan/Altaic, but who knows.

    We do know that the Shangs are very un-Confucian. E.g. a lot of wild crazy sex, and human sacrifices.

    Zhou and after are attest-ably northern Mongoloid
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terracotta_Army#Types_and_appearance

    Caucasoid features have been around since time immemorial. Just have gradually phase out as the center of Sino civilization transitioned from Northwest (near Xi’an) towards Southeast (Yangtze Delta)

    Sun Quan, one of the 3 Monarchs of the Three Kingdoms was cited as having blue eyes, so you guys can claim him. (Though he was not considered to be more non-conformist than Liu Bei and Cao Cao, the other two monarchs lol)


    小説『三国志演義』では、「碧眼紫髯 堂堂一表」と堂々とした風采の持ち主として描写されている[52]。「碧眼児」(水色瞳の童)と呼ばれる。
    In the novel "Romance of the Three Kingdoms", it is described as the owner of a dignified appearance as "Blue-eyed Purple Beard Dodo Ichimoku" [52]. He is called a "blue-eyed child" (a child with light blue eyes).

     

    https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%AD%AB%E6%A8%A9#%E9%A2%A8%E8%B2%8C

    Replies: @Boomthorkell, @melanf, @AltanBakshi

    Xia (22CE BC) and (Shang 16CE BC) are called dynasties but are really pre-history. So we don’t really know what they look like.

    Внешность легко восстанавливается по скелетам. Если бы элита прото-китайских царств была европидной мы бы об этом знали. По этому утверждение Карлина вероятно легенду
    The appearance is easily restored by skeletons. If the elite of the Proto-Chinese kingdoms were Europid, we would know about it. For this reason Carlin’s statement is probably a legend

  46. @Znzn
    Taiwanese and Koreans have higher homicide rates than Japan despite having old populations. And romance of the three kingdoms is innacurate, records of the three kingdoms is a lot more historical.

    Replies: @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

    Sure, in Records of Three Kingdoms he’s cited on having „bright“ eyes, 目有精光
    https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%AD%99%E6%9D%83#cite_note-80

    Here’s the foremost Tang poet Li Bai, born in Kyrgyzstan, those eyes look pretty fair. He was definitely not conformist, and drank himself to death

    • Replies: @Alfa158
    @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

    John Derbyshire did what I thought to be a particularly poetic translation of one of his poems.
    https://www.johnderbyshire.com/Readings/tianmu.html
    When things aren’t going so well, I still cope by sighing to myself and quoting two lines:
    “ So always with human rapture;
    The joys of all time flow away to the east.”

  47. If you support inter caste marriage & call Hebrew names like David, “English”, (IE) then you don’t deserve a country.

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾ।।ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ।।

  48. china-russia-all-the-way says:

    Article makes the case that EAs are underrepresented (“bamboo ceiling”) because they “communicate less assertively” relative to both Whites and South Asians.

    This part strikes me as highly imprecise. It’s not assertiveness but soft skills which at times can mean assertiveness. East Asian men are deficient in both soft skills and curiosity, holding not only individuals back but maybe the development of nations. As Karlin has noted several EA countries are rich but significantly less rich than Anglo countries, and general population lack of curiosity may explain a lot of the lag.

    The difference between EA women and men is found in the West and in China. In the US, EA women do not lag in holding leadership roles compared to white women. In China, women are overrepresented compared to in Western countries as venture capital firm partners and even real estate developers (roles that require intense soft skills and curiosity). Also among independent tourists from China to off the beaten track destinations, women outnumber men. It’s the opposite in most of the rest of the world. The explanation for these differences doesn’t seem to have to do with IQ. Chinese men have higher verbal IQs than women. The differences can be attributed to lower curiosity and soft skills among Chinese men, but I sense there is something else in terms of verbal ability that accounts for the difference. There is some kind of trait shaping thought process that is a combination of verbal IQ and ability to apply IQ in real life situations. No idea if there is a name for this concept.

    Few people here have the right diagnosis. Parents think the school system doesn’t teach “creativity” compared to the West. Really though any improvement for boys starts with introducing more team sports in schools to develop soft skills, regulating mobile games to not hold back soft skills, and a lot of other interventions.

  49. @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms
    @Daniel Chieh

    Here’s an even better one
    https://twitter.com/crimkadid/status/1265306854940442624?s=20

    Problem with citing these stats is that it assumes normal distribution when reality could have heavy tails (kurtosis) or jumps (jump diffusion)

    Replies: @Bill

    How does a comparison of two rates assume a normal distribution?

    • Replies: @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms
    @Bill

    The conclusion was:

    Population X and Y has very low rate of homicide tendencies

    Based on an average taken of homicide rates.

    If the distribution of homicide tendencies for both population is

    1. normally distributed
    2. with a similarly small/moderate StDev

    Then I agree that is a fair conclusion.

    For 2 I can allow, but I don’t see how 1 can be assumed.

    IQ and height I can accept are normally distributed (i.e. outliers become very rare at 3 x StDev and above) since
    1. Both traits are ~50% genetically determined, AND
    2. It is been observed that those genes are normally distributed, AND
    3. In modern genetics we have Law of Large Numbers in play

    But the jury is still out on how much homicide tendency is genetically determined. So it could be for instance modeled as Student t distribution, with more outliers. Such as this gorgeous stunner

    https://pic2.zhimg.com/v2-70af120e9e167c11675593078fe23a5c_1440w.jpg?source=172ae18b

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusako_Shigenobu

    Are there any Scandi female terrorist group founder and leader lol?

    Secondly, the homicide stats are taken during peacetime. But in circumstances of say, after months of grueling combat, an obdurate enemy that will not surrender, culture of brutality in military hierarchy towards subordinates, sudden unexpected intake of unarmed POWs and civilians.

    Anyone could chimp out in such a scenario, but Group X might chimp out more than Group Y.

    This is what I mean by jump diffusion, a perfect analogy is Gamestop stock daily returns, 99 times out of 100 will follow normal distribution, but will on rare instances have large spikes of indeterminate size.

    Replies: @Mr. XYZ, @Bill

  50. In “Fargo,” why was Marge’s incident at the Radisson buffet relevant to the overall plot of the movie? Why is April the cruelest month? Explain why the Ancient Mariner shot the albatross. I can’t prove it, but my anecdotal observations tell me that East-Asian-descended Americans have a relative weak spot in this sphere of their mental ability. A proficient CEO will be better at cognitive and emotional social observations and understandings, and the associated non-algorithmic mental gymnastics to apply to these.

  51. @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms
    @Znzn

    Sure, in Records of Three Kingdoms he’s cited on having „bright“ eyes, 目有精光
    https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%AD%99%E6%9D%83#cite_note-80

    Here’s the foremost Tang poet Li Bai, born in Kyrgyzstan, those eyes look pretty fair. He was definitely not conformist, and drank himself to death

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/dc/Libai_touxiang.jpg/412px-Libai_touxiang.jpg

    Replies: @Alfa158

    John Derbyshire did what I thought to be a particularly poetic translation of one of his poems.
    https://www.johnderbyshire.com/Readings/tianmu.html
    When things aren’t going so well, I still cope by sighing to myself and quoting two lines:
    “ So always with human rapture;
    The joys of all time flow away to the east.”

  52. @Long time lurker
    Long time lurker of East Asian descent here; this sounds about right. It confirms my biases, and what I have long since suspected. It is a hillarious meme that the Chinese, who make up 4% of Canadians, basically don't show up in politics at all, whilst the Sikhs, who make up less than 1%, are 25% of our current ministers in Parliament! Even ignoring that on cope-fuelled 'it's SJWism!' To explain why Sikhs are so insanely overrepresented, I can't help but notice that a stunning number of political candidates, even in the Conservative and even some far-right parties, are Sikh.

    I am less certain on whether or not this is a race feature as opposed to simple upbringing, although I could not be surprised if it was. Second, third, fourth, and fifth gen East Asians rarely are seen bickering on some issue (besides family) and yelling at each other on the street, unlike Indians. Although second, third, and fourth gen Indians also seem to tone it down, and Canadians in general are more soft spoken than Americans, so... take that as you will.

    Replies: @unam, @Almost Missouri

    Wait, Canada has “far-right parties”?

    • Replies: @Long term lurker
    @Almost Missouri

    None that made it into power, just like how we theoreically have a communist party.

  53. Instead, cultural differences in assertiveness consistently explained the leadership attainment gap

    What about the fact that, as Sailer has documented, in the West, “diversity” is mostly a code word for “dark”, and therefore companies like to have South Asian CEOs more than East Asian CEOs simply because South Asians have more melanin than East Asian? On a limbic level, they feel like having a prominent dark-ish South Asian relieves them of the burden of finding an equal African.

    Lower assertiveness and lower verbal precocity of East Asians may well handicap them in the race for the C-suite, but the modern religious cult of “diversity” (=”darkness”) undoubtedly advantages South Asians on some unconscious level. The experience of Mindy Kaling’s brother may be instructive in this regard.

    • Agree: Blinky Bill, Beckow
    • Replies: @Beckow
    @Almost Missouri


    ...having a prominent dark-ish South Asian relieves them of the burden of finding an equal African.
     
    That's about half of it. African blacks also benefit - descendants of West African slave traders who sold their kin to whites are rewarded in modern America, blacker is better.

    A strong factor in Indian career climbing is shameless nepotism and tribalism. Indians are self-serving, if one of them is in a position to help kin, or distant kin, or even sell it to them, they will do it. It is their culture and they have been at this for millennia. Competence is only remotely related to it, Bible says: "many are called, but few are chosen".

    Asians are family oriented, but don't have the brazen self-serving assertiveness of Indians to take apart any institution for personal benefit. Whites are lone wolves - raised to be self-reliant and objective and often suffering from liberal dementia. And women love non-threatening dark people like Indians.

    Once a tribal group with no scruples was allowed into the West, they were bound to gradually take it over. This is only the beginning, there are about 1.5 billion waiting to take the journey and boss around clueless white losers who live in a mythical make-believe land of everybody for himself, and real men solve their own problems.... Kamala-lady looks like the future: dark-skin preachy opportunists given a hand on the way up...

    Replies: @Svevlad

  54. @Daniel Chieh
    Might reflect higher levels of femininity overall representative of a lower T society in East Asian culture:

    1) Higher expectations of care
    2) Higher levels of collectivism
    3) Increased neuroticism/future orientation
    4) Lowered risk taking
    5) Generally more social/verbal means of conflict initiation and resolution

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    Do they eat more soy than Indians?

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    @reiner Tor

    Almost certainly cultural/genetic co-evolution rather than just soy-based diet or the like. From E.A. Ross, it seems had been pretty much typical even in the 1900s:

    Chinese children do not run, romp, and climb like ours. Their schoolboys are less riotous than white boys. Athletic sports are unknown. One recreates with kite flying, cricket fighting, gambling, chess, or letting off fire-crackers. To sip wine and cap verses in a shady arbor or a cool grotto by a lotus pond is a gentleman’s ideal of happiness. There is game aplenty in some parts, but no one shoots save the pot hunter with his rusty matchlock. No one bestrides a horse for pleasure. The placid mule is preferred to the horse and a gentle amble to a brisk gallop. When the mounted soldier gets up speed, the sight is a salve for sore eyes. Boxing would never occur to anyone as a sport. Fighting is rare and, far from being a manly exchange of blows, is waged girl-wise, with scratching and hair-pulling. The singing of the men is a nasal falsetto in strange contrast to the abdomiual bellow of Western males.
     

    E.A.Ross, The Changing Chinese

    https://www.unz.com/book/e_a_ross__the-changing-chinese/

    Search UI is horrible for Unz books, incidentally.

    Replies: @EldnahYm, @Bashibuzuk, @European-American

  55. @Almost Missouri


    Instead, cultural differences in assertiveness consistently explained the leadership attainment gap
     

     
    What about the fact that, as Sailer has documented, in the West, "diversity" is mostly a code word for "dark", and therefore companies like to have South Asian CEOs more than East Asian CEOs simply because South Asians have more melanin than East Asian? On a limbic level, they feel like having a prominent dark-ish South Asian relieves them of the burden of finding an equal African.

    Lower assertiveness and lower verbal precocity of East Asians may well handicap them in the race for the C-suite, but the modern religious cult of "diversity" (="darkness") undoubtedly advantages South Asians on some unconscious level. The experience of Mindy Kaling's brother may be instructive in this regard.

    Replies: @Beckow

    …having a prominent dark-ish South Asian relieves them of the burden of finding an equal African.

    That’s about half of it. African blacks also benefit – descendants of West African slave traders who sold their kin to whites are rewarded in modern America, blacker is better.

    A strong factor in Indian career climbing is shameless nepotism and tribalism. Indians are self-serving, if one of them is in a position to help kin, or distant kin, or even sell it to them, they will do it. It is their culture and they have been at this for millennia. Competence is only remotely related to it, Bible says: “many are called, but few are chosen“.

    Asians are family oriented, but don’t have the brazen self-serving assertiveness of Indians to take apart any institution for personal benefit. Whites are lone wolves – raised to be self-reliant and objective and often suffering from liberal dementia. And women love non-threatening dark people like Indians.

    Once a tribal group with no scruples was allowed into the West, they were bound to gradually take it over. This is only the beginning, there are about 1.5 billion waiting to take the journey and boss around clueless white losers who live in a mythical make-believe land of everybody for himself, and real men solve their own problems…. Kamala-lady looks like the future: dark-skin preachy opportunists given a hand on the way up…

    • Replies: @Svevlad
    @Beckow

    So then, the eternal Balkanoid is the last hope for the white man?

  56. @Bill
    @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

    How does a comparison of two rates assume a normal distribution?

    Replies: @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

    The conclusion was:

    Population X and Y has very low rate of homicide tendencies

    Based on an average taken of homicide rates.

    If the distribution of homicide tendencies for both population is

    1. normally distributed
    2. with a similarly small/moderate StDev

    Then I agree that is a fair conclusion.

    For 2 I can allow, but I don’t see how 1 can be assumed.

    IQ and height I can accept are normally distributed (i.e. outliers become very rare at 3 x StDev and above) since
    1. Both traits are ~50% genetically determined, AND
    2. It is been observed that those genes are normally distributed, AND
    3. In modern genetics we have Law of Large Numbers in play

    But the jury is still out on how much homicide tendency is genetically determined. So it could be for instance modeled as Student t distribution, with more outliers. Such as this gorgeous stunner

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusako_Shigenobu

    Are there any Scandi female terrorist group founder and leader lol?

    Secondly, the homicide stats are taken during peacetime. But in circumstances of say, after months of grueling combat, an obdurate enemy that will not surrender, culture of brutality in military hierarchy towards subordinates, sudden unexpected intake of unarmed POWs and civilians.

    Anyone could chimp out in such a scenario, but Group X might chimp out more than Group Y.

    This is what I mean by jump diffusion, a perfect analogy is Gamestop stock daily returns, 99 times out of 100 will follow normal distribution, but will on rare instances have large spikes of indeterminate size.

    • Thanks: Bill
    • Replies: @Mr. XYZ
    @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms


    Are there any Scandi female terrorist group founder and leader lol?
     
    I doubt it, to be honest.
    , @Bill
    @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

    I see. Your point is that two populations could have the same mean "homicide tendencies" (whatever that means), but that one population could have higher observed rates if the environment is not currently conducive to homicide and if the higher-observed-rate population has a higher std dev of "homicide tendencies."

    I think what your example argues for is that "homicide tendencies" is not a thing, though.

    Replies: @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

  57. @AP
    @Vishnugupta


    .The caste breakup of Indian Americans is 20 % Brahmin,40% upper caste(including Brahmins) , 50% middle castes and 10% Dalits
     
    I thought it was much higher than that ( the article I linked to claims 90% belong to upper castes). Still, 40% upper caste would still skew the results in terms of average IQ. Furthermore, even the middle and lower caste people are still well filtered when they come to the USA, we aren’t getting poor illiterate peasants.

    Amusingly, American civil rights laws don’t cover caste discrimination and there is a lot of discrimination against Dalits in the USA by their upper-caste brethren. Some of these people who oppress the Dalits also support Black Lives Matter, aping their wealthy white peers.

    https://www.trtworld.com/magazine/a-silicon-valley-lawsuit-reveals-caste-discrimination-is-rife-in-the-us-39773

    Replies: @Mr. XYZ, @Dmitry

    Amusingly, American civil rights laws don’t cover caste discrimination and there is a lot of discrimination against Dalits in the USA by their upper-caste brethren. Some of these people who oppress the Dalits also support Black Lives Matter, aping their wealthy white peers.

    It’s an EXTREMELY shitty move to support BL(D)M while also supporting Dalit discrimination!

    • LOL: sher singh
  58. @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms
    @Bill

    The conclusion was:

    Population X and Y has very low rate of homicide tendencies

    Based on an average taken of homicide rates.

    If the distribution of homicide tendencies for both population is

    1. normally distributed
    2. with a similarly small/moderate StDev

    Then I agree that is a fair conclusion.

    For 2 I can allow, but I don’t see how 1 can be assumed.

    IQ and height I can accept are normally distributed (i.e. outliers become very rare at 3 x StDev and above) since
    1. Both traits are ~50% genetically determined, AND
    2. It is been observed that those genes are normally distributed, AND
    3. In modern genetics we have Law of Large Numbers in play

    But the jury is still out on how much homicide tendency is genetically determined. So it could be for instance modeled as Student t distribution, with more outliers. Such as this gorgeous stunner

    https://pic2.zhimg.com/v2-70af120e9e167c11675593078fe23a5c_1440w.jpg?source=172ae18b

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusako_Shigenobu

    Are there any Scandi female terrorist group founder and leader lol?

    Secondly, the homicide stats are taken during peacetime. But in circumstances of say, after months of grueling combat, an obdurate enemy that will not surrender, culture of brutality in military hierarchy towards subordinates, sudden unexpected intake of unarmed POWs and civilians.

    Anyone could chimp out in such a scenario, but Group X might chimp out more than Group Y.

    This is what I mean by jump diffusion, a perfect analogy is Gamestop stock daily returns, 99 times out of 100 will follow normal distribution, but will on rare instances have large spikes of indeterminate size.

    Replies: @Mr. XYZ, @Bill

    Are there any Scandi female terrorist group founder and leader lol?

    I doubt it, to be honest.

  59. @prime noticer
    ah, it's easier to explain than that.

    the upper class indians who show up in the US are pushy, social climbers, and even more ethnocentric than jews or koreans. once a single indian gets in a position of authority, the entire staff turns over to indian quickly.

    note that they don't even change their names to American ones - even east asians do that. US born indians get indian names, US born chinese and korean guys get named David, James, and Steven.

    also, like Irish people, they see the US as an expression of British identity, specifically the English identity, and they hate it for historical reasons.

    it is true that indians are more social than east asians, who are mostly nerds. in an existing company, the nerds don't become the next generation leaders most of the time.

    Replies: @Znzn, @Daniel Chieh, @Mr. XYZ, @Europe Europa

    US born chinese and korean guys get named David, James, and Steven.

    “Sinhua? Oh, please, just call me April!”
    “Chingchong? Oh, please, just call me Michael!”
    “Daeguk? Oh, please, just call me Richard!”

    😉

  60. @prime noticer
    ah, it's easier to explain than that.

    the upper class indians who show up in the US are pushy, social climbers, and even more ethnocentric than jews or koreans. once a single indian gets in a position of authority, the entire staff turns over to indian quickly.

    note that they don't even change their names to American ones - even east asians do that. US born indians get indian names, US born chinese and korean guys get named David, James, and Steven.

    also, like Irish people, they see the US as an expression of British identity, specifically the English identity, and they hate it for historical reasons.

    it is true that indians are more social than east asians, who are mostly nerds. in an existing company, the nerds don't become the next generation leaders most of the time.

    Replies: @Znzn, @Daniel Chieh, @Mr. XYZ, @Europe Europa

    In my experience the Irish hate Britain way more intensely than Indians do. Indians tend to have a fairly balanced view of the British Empire, as in some of it good, some of it bad. They don’t really seem to hate British people, some even seem somewhat pro-British whereas pro-British Irish people seem to be almost non-existent, an Irish person who only mildly dislikes rather than despises the British is about as good as it gets.

    Whereas the Irish just have a one track mind view of British rule as one of blood thirsty murder and genocide, there’s no nuance or balance in their view at all. A significant percentage of them seem to despise British people today just based on their perception of history. I find the Irish far more toxic and anti-British than Indians in general.

    • Replies: @Beckow
    @Europe Europa


    ...Irish have view of British rule as one of blood thirsty murder and genocide
     
    Well, was it? British did things to the Irish that could be called "blood thirsty murder and genocide", why should they not remember it?

    We can discuss the undue focus that some put on events that happened long time ago. But you have to be even-handed and I have never seen British shy away from endlessly demonising others.

    British constantly go around the world talking about how horrible other nations are, or were, it's only fair that Irish and others also point out British misdeeds. I am confused about why this simple concept is so hard to understand for most people in UK. Are you so dense that you don't get basic logic? Or is it a form of narcissism?

    Replies: @EldnahYm

  61. @Europe Europa
    @prime noticer

    In my experience the Irish hate Britain way more intensely than Indians do. Indians tend to have a fairly balanced view of the British Empire, as in some of it good, some of it bad. They don't really seem to hate British people, some even seem somewhat pro-British whereas pro-British Irish people seem to be almost non-existent, an Irish person who only mildly dislikes rather than despises the British is about as good as it gets.

    Whereas the Irish just have a one track mind view of British rule as one of blood thirsty murder and genocide, there's no nuance or balance in their view at all. A significant percentage of them seem to despise British people today just based on their perception of history. I find the Irish far more toxic and anti-British than Indians in general.

    Replies: @Beckow

    …Irish have view of British rule as one of blood thirsty murder and genocide

    Well, was it? British did things to the Irish that could be called “blood thirsty murder and genocide”, why should they not remember it?

    We can discuss the undue focus that some put on events that happened long time ago. But you have to be even-handed and I have never seen British shy away from endlessly demonising others.

    British constantly go around the world talking about how horrible other nations are, or were, it’s only fair that Irish and others also point out British misdeeds. I am confused about why this simple concept is so hard to understand for most people in UK. Are you so dense that you don’t get basic logic? Or is it a form of narcissism?

    • Replies: @EldnahYm
    @Beckow


    Well, was it? British did things to the Irish that could be called “blood thirsty murder and genocide”, why should they not remember it?.
     
    False.

    Replies: @Beckow

  62. what percentage of indian americans have fair skin or light eyes?

  63. Indian-American IQ is higher than White IQ and even higher than East Asian IQ.

    Citation needed.

  64. @Beckow
    @Europe Europa


    ...Irish have view of British rule as one of blood thirsty murder and genocide
     
    Well, was it? British did things to the Irish that could be called "blood thirsty murder and genocide", why should they not remember it?

    We can discuss the undue focus that some put on events that happened long time ago. But you have to be even-handed and I have never seen British shy away from endlessly demonising others.

    British constantly go around the world talking about how horrible other nations are, or were, it's only fair that Irish and others also point out British misdeeds. I am confused about why this simple concept is so hard to understand for most people in UK. Are you so dense that you don't get basic logic? Or is it a form of narcissism?

    Replies: @EldnahYm

    Well, was it? British did things to the Irish that could be called “blood thirsty murder and genocide”, why should they not remember it?.

    False.

    • Replies: @Beckow
    @EldnahYm

    You have to do better than that...by any standard used today it "could be called...".

  65. How do the pro-China altrighters here feel about China shilling for George Floyd and BLM?

    • Replies: @Long term lurker
    @128

    First cope: it's a 5d chess move.

    , @Pericles
    @128

    Presumably it feels like reaching over and twisting the knife after the idiot bully has stabbed himself. Is there a 36 strategy for this?

    , @songbird
    @128

    Well, this sort of thing goes back decades. When it was originally developed, it was not obvious that it would cause the West or even America to explode. It was basically throwaway rhetoric - probably fairly useless, except with the most insane radicals.

    In a way, it can be thought of as institutional momentum. By loose analogy, like how Western countries often have very poor statistics for measuring different ethnic groups - when these systems were imagined, nobody envisioned the scale of invasion, and so some European countries have silly categories like "immigrant", or "immigrant parent."

    And part of it is reflexive - a response to the rhetoric about Uighurs.

    But I really view it as short-sightedness. If China is to survive, it must adopt strategic racism, and a domino theory of poz.

    , @Anatoly Karlin
    @128

    I don't identify as an Alt Righter, but it syncs with my long-standing position that idiocy needs to be brutally punished.

    From its own perspective, China is not incorrect to twist the knife into an adversary, one that is spreading black legends about Uyghur Genocide, etc.

  66. One of the fascinating things about this blog is seeing how commentators who can otherwise intelligently delve into what happened in some small region three hundred years ago in Central Europe, are reduced to superficial, tribal idiots when talking about cultures outside Europe.

    For example, there are those who conflate achievement/behavior patterns of Indian Americans – themselves a stratified bunch across educational achievement, business acumen (influenced no doubt by caste/regional ethnicity back in India) – with India as a whole, and who have actually made the jaw dropping comments that high achieving people from a country (in this case India) should not be allowed in because apparently the country of origin is infested with cooties. This is the kind of thinking one would associate with babbling idiots but the same person can otherwise intelligently discuss the area of his expertise which lies entirely within Europe.

    This same person – and others such – also rail against the alleged tribalism and nepotism of Indian Americans as a reason for them making it, entirely ironically missing their own extreme tribalism – and deep ignorance – in making these comments.

    So one then is to believe that Sundar Pichai became head of Google because Larry Page, Sergei Brin, Eric Schmidt et al were crypto-Indians. Similarly with Satya Nadella who was personally groomed by Bill Gates and turned Microsoft around after the disastrous Steve Ballmer. And apparently scientists like these 12 Indians deeply involved in NASA Mars missions https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/other/meet-the-indians-on-the-mars-perseverance-team/ar-BB1e4aye got their jobs (and many accolades) simply because JPL is sone Indian stronghold (rather than one that attracts highly motivated, intelligent scientists worldwide. There are many other nationalities who also work at JPL).

    These same commentators would rail against Wokeism – which is identity politics run amok for the benefit of grifters and power hungry opportunists of all colors – but then apparently objective merit based achievements in the US – which they would otherwise support – in which both EA and SA (Indians) are over-represented is due to “nepotism”.

    Clearly family based businesses, like small shops or motels etc are “nepotistic” in the same way that any privately held organization – eg the Trump Organization – is nepotistic. (Even publicly owned businesses eg Ford, Walmart were nepotistic and indeed quite exclusionary to people of the wrong color for quite a while. THAT apparently is not nepotistic or tribal.)

    Meanwhile another prolific commentator replying to a interesting comment worth exploring on how apparently a Brahmin Indian American were upset about a child partnering with a Japanese American, missed the whole point by showing a picture of developed Japanese city and a destitute Indian community as if this same Brahmin family in the US would be delighted if their child married someone from that community instead. So “India” then is not represented as a multi-dimensional bell curve – as indeed every large grouping can be – but by one image.

    Reading this blog then has reinforced my observation about many people: that they can be highly intellectual and discerning about certain topics but fall back into primitive drooling tribalism and idiocy outside their topic of expertise. In other words, the logic, commitment to reason and inquiry they display in their area is cast aside in favor of their raw emotions and deep prejudices outside it.

    I’ve noticed this in RL where many acquaintances who are deep experts in their fields – even in hard fields like Physics, AI etc – end up believing the most inane, easily falsifiable and contradictory propaganda against say Russia displaying a complete lack of curiosity, intellectual rigor that they spent their professional lives steeped in. Russia to them is what the NYT/Western media tells them it is.

    Another observation I can make based on this blog alone is that, Karlin being a prominent exception, many Russian or pro-Russian commentators seem to live in a bubble formed circa the 19th century – or charitably the late 20th century – and horrified and bewildered about the world they find themselves in with all non-white, non-Christians suddenly polluting the views outside their bubbles. While these commentators can endlessly dissect the many communities among Europe – and divide them into 15,000 different strands of tribal origins and disputes that persist till today – the world outside it is evidently divided into only five or six groupings with no understanding or curiosity of the variety and deep histories within them. For example in the grouping of complex ethno-states called India, there are 400+ languages alone, with about 20 main ones spoken by tens of millions.

    Fortunately for Russia, it appears Putin & co – while strongly maintaining the ties to the past – have been ahead of many of their countrymen in realizing the future of Russia, rather than an imagined nostalgic glorious past, lies in greater ties not with the West – which is seeing its 500 years of hegemony being challenged amidst their own internal divisions – but with the rest of the wide World with all its myriad communities as history remorselessly marches on.

    • Thanks: Grahamsno(G64)
    • Replies: @Thulean Friend
    @Ludwig

    It's just crude racism. There can be interesting discussions here, and I appreciate the relative lack of censorship, but you have to remember that many people still carry primitive prejudices on this blog. And this is especially the case whenever discussion turns to people with more melanin. There's no reason to overanalyse it more than that.

    Replies: @EldnahYm, @Daniel Chieh

    , @Beckow
    @Ludwig

    A lot of what you wrote is a projection of what you think others may think, not really what they wrote. The talk of bubbles and 19th century is a classical straw-man argument: because one doesn't want his society overrun by tens of millions migrants from the Third World doesn't at all mean that they want to restore 1888 or have normal inter-cultural relations with normal people from different cultures - in numbers that have always existed and always will.

    So why create a straw-man? Usually when someone fights a straw-man it is because they have nothing to say about the actual issues, it is a way to avoid a discussion. You do slightly better, and actually address some real points - so let me respond:

    There are intelligent Indians and India has 400+ languages: but that is irrelevant to the point that large numbers of Indians who are neither particularly intelligent nor needed are migrating to the West. There are 1.5 billion of them, how many do you want to come? And why should young professionals be displaced by them? Because you think they are "smarter", or because Bill Gates likes them because they are cheaper? That Steve Ballmer is an idiot changes nothing, there are idiots of all nationalities. The Indian guy running Citi a few years back was not exactly a genius.

    Using a few names - as you do - is also completely irrelevant. This is about large numbers, not about a few over-achievers. When you go there you are again simply trying to avoid a discussion because you sense that you would lose the argument.

    You argue that if one criticises others for self-serving or other behaviors, he should in turn not show a preference for his own group. Ideally. But in a world we live in that is nonsense. Trying to be objective is intellectually nice, but in practise it doesn't work. It is another technique to disempower smarter people by appealing to their sense of fair-play. For me it is enough that we on our side are 'fairer", not perfect by any standard, but fairer. We listen to their arguments, they don't listen to ours. There is no point in dying on that hill, nobody would remember it.

    Replies: @Ludwig

    , @Anatoly Karlin
    @Ludwig

    Excellent comment.

    , @EldnahYm
    @Ludwig


    This same person – and others such – also rail against the alleged tribalism and nepotism of Indian Americans as a reason for them making it, entirely ironically missing their own extreme tribalism – and deep ignorance – in making these comments.
     
    You're arguing here that people who object to Indian nepotism are themselves nepotistic. This is a classic Freudian tactic. If someone says something homophobic that must mean they're a closeted gay.

    Accusing Indians of tribalism is one of the weaker insults hurled at them. That's going easy on them. I would accuse the Indian diaspora of being parasitic, unscrupulous, cowardly, corrupt, and shameless. Tribalism is low on my list of complaints against them.


    So one then is to believe that Sundar Pichai became head of Google because Larry Page, Sergei Brin, Eric Schmidt et al were crypto-Indians. Similarly with Satya Nadella who was personally groomed by Bill Gates and turned Microsoft around after the disastrous Steve Ballmer. And apparently scientists like these 12 Indians deeply involved in NASA Mars missions https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/other/meet-the-indians-on-the-mars-perseverance-team/ar-BB1e4aye got their jobs (and many accolades) simply because JPL is sone Indian stronghold (rather than one that attracts highly motivated, intelligent scientists worldwide. There are many other nationalities who also work at JPL).

    These same commentators would rail against Wokeism – which is identity politics run amok for the benefit of grifters and power hungry opportunists of all colors – but then apparently objective merit based achievements in the US – which they would otherwise support – in which both EA and SA (Indians) are over-represented is due to “nepotism”.
     

    Silicon Valley Jews hire Indians because they're a useful golem against white people.

    You are simply picking a select number of accomplished individuals and implying they represent Indian people as a whole. What does the ability of 12 NASA scientists tells us about the ability of Indian-Americans in general? Not much. You do realize this method of yours is not any more informative than the one you are attributing to others, namely stereotyping all Indians based on how India as a whole appears. Among Indian Americans, gas station owners or restaurant owners are more representative than the select people you are mentioning.

    Also, what is it with online Indians always lumping themselves in with East Asians? I have never in real life come across the idea that these two groups of people are similar, yet often I see online Indians trying to piggyback on East Asian accomplishment. People used to accuse the poster Thomm of being Indian, one time I saw him doing the same thing, so now I also believe he is Indian. Newsflash guy, East Asians in the U.S. also have the same complaint about Indians. Look up Ryu vs Intel Corporation if you don't believe me. In contrast one of the most common stereotypes about East Asians in the U.S. is that they don't cause any trouble(the others are that they study too hard, are passive, worship money, and are good at math).

    It's not just the nepotism either. Indians doctors are overrepresented among medical fraudsters and pill mills. Indians have extremely low civic engagement. Some Indians, like Sikhs for example, demand society accommodate their foreign customs. There is also the simple fact that large numbers of the Indian diaspora are openly anti-white.

    I won't go into your point about meritocracy. Ron Unz himself has written good articles on the subject which I recommend you read.


    Clearly family based businesses, like small shops or motels etc are “nepotistic” in the same way that any privately held organization – eg the Trump Organization – is nepotistic. (Even publicly owned businesses eg Ford, Walmart were nepotistic and indeed quite exclusionary to people of the wrong color for quite a while. THAT apparently is not nepotistic or tribal.
     
    Nepotism can extend to any form of social organization. Knowing the right people is one of the more surefire ways of getting a job. This creates ample opportunity for favoritism. Mencius Moldbugman describes Indian practice better than I:

    https://twitter.com/moldbugman/status/1137961234722988032


    Reading this blog then has reinforced my observation about many people: that they can be highly intellectual and discerning about certain topics but fall back into primitive drooling tribalism and idiocy outside their topic of expertise. In other words, the logic, commitment to reason and inquiry they display in their area is cast aside in favor of their raw emotions and deep prejudices outside it.
     
    Or maybe people have come into contact with real life Indians and know how they operate, especially when there are large clusters of them.

    Replies: @sher singh

  67. @Vishnugupta
    @songbird

    The key digital divide issue is English language proficiency not internet access which thanks to smartphones ( 750 million+ active smartphones) and the cheapest mobile data rates in the world(1 month unlimited talk 25 GB data plan costs $3) is very wide spread.

    Only about 10% of the Indian population understand English well enough to read an article online form an opinion and write comments.
    Still almost all quality content from India on the net is in English.

    Though 70% of Indians can understand Hindi the Hindi content is almost never read outside the core Hindi speaking belt accounting for around 30% of Indians .Other vernacular languages and often the associated scripts change every few hundred kilometers.

    Replies: @songbird, @Reg Cæsar

    Other vernacular languages and often the associated scripts change every few hundred kilometers.

    But the kilometers themselves don’t. People fight for their languages and faiths, but discard their measurements like candy wrappers.

  68. Thomm detected?

  69. @EldnahYm
    @Beckow


    Well, was it? British did things to the Irish that could be called “blood thirsty murder and genocide”, why should they not remember it?.
     
    False.

    Replies: @Beckow

    You have to do better than that…by any standard used today it “could be called…“.

  70. @Ludwig
    One of the fascinating things about this blog is seeing how commentators who can otherwise intelligently delve into what happened in some small region three hundred years ago in Central Europe, are reduced to superficial, tribal idiots when talking about cultures outside Europe.

    For example, there are those who conflate achievement/behavior patterns of Indian Americans - themselves a stratified bunch across educational achievement, business acumen (influenced no doubt by caste/regional ethnicity back in India) - with India as a whole, and who have actually made the jaw dropping comments that high achieving people from a country (in this case India) should not be allowed in because apparently the country of origin is infested with cooties. This is the kind of thinking one would associate with babbling idiots but the same person can otherwise intelligently discuss the area of his expertise which lies entirely within Europe.

    This same person - and others such - also rail against the alleged tribalism and nepotism of Indian Americans as a reason for them making it, entirely ironically missing their own extreme tribalism - and deep ignorance - in making these comments.

    So one then is to believe that Sundar Pichai became head of Google because Larry Page, Sergei Brin, Eric Schmidt et al were crypto-Indians. Similarly with Satya Nadella who was personally groomed by Bill Gates and turned Microsoft around after the disastrous Steve Ballmer. And apparently scientists like these 12 Indians deeply involved in NASA Mars missions https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/other/meet-the-indians-on-the-mars-perseverance-team/ar-BB1e4aye got their jobs (and many accolades) simply because JPL is sone Indian stronghold (rather than one that attracts highly motivated, intelligent scientists worldwide. There are many other nationalities who also work at JPL).

    These same commentators would rail against Wokeism - which is identity politics run amok for the benefit of grifters and power hungry opportunists of all colors - but then apparently objective merit based achievements in the US - which they would otherwise support - in which both EA and SA (Indians) are over-represented is due to “nepotism”.

    Clearly family based businesses, like small shops or motels etc are “nepotistic” in the same way that any privately held organization - eg the Trump Organization - is nepotistic. (Even publicly owned businesses eg Ford, Walmart were nepotistic and indeed quite exclusionary to people of the wrong color for quite a while. THAT apparently is not nepotistic or tribal.)

    Meanwhile another prolific commentator replying to a interesting comment worth exploring on how apparently a Brahmin Indian American were upset about a child partnering with a Japanese American, missed the whole point by showing a picture of developed Japanese city and a destitute Indian community as if this same Brahmin family in the US would be delighted if their child married someone from that community instead. So “India” then is not represented as a multi-dimensional bell curve - as indeed every large grouping can be - but by one image.

    Reading this blog then has reinforced my observation about many people: that they can be highly intellectual and discerning about certain topics but fall back into primitive drooling tribalism and idiocy outside their topic of expertise. In other words, the logic, commitment to reason and inquiry they display in their area is cast aside in favor of their raw emotions and deep prejudices outside it.

    I’ve noticed this in RL where many acquaintances who are deep experts in their fields - even in hard fields like Physics, AI etc - end up believing the most inane, easily falsifiable and contradictory propaganda against say Russia displaying a complete lack of curiosity, intellectual rigor that they spent their professional lives steeped in. Russia to them is what the NYT/Western media tells them it is.

    Another observation I can make based on this blog alone is that, Karlin being a prominent exception, many Russian or pro-Russian commentators seem to live in a bubble formed circa the 19th century - or charitably the late 20th century - and horrified and bewildered about the world they find themselves in with all non-white, non-Christians suddenly polluting the views outside their bubbles. While these commentators can endlessly dissect the many communities among Europe - and divide them into 15,000 different strands of tribal origins and disputes that persist till today - the world outside it is evidently divided into only five or six groupings with no understanding or curiosity of the variety and deep histories within them. For example in the grouping of complex ethno-states called India, there are 400+ languages alone, with about 20 main ones spoken by tens of millions.

    Fortunately for Russia, it appears Putin & co - while strongly maintaining the ties to the past - have been ahead of many of their countrymen in realizing the future of Russia, rather than an imagined nostalgic glorious past, lies in greater ties not with the West - which is seeing its 500 years of hegemony being challenged amidst their own internal divisions - but with the rest of the wide World with all its myriad communities as history remorselessly marches on.

    Replies: @Thulean Friend, @Beckow, @Anatoly Karlin, @EldnahYm

    It’s just crude racism. There can be interesting discussions here, and I appreciate the relative lack of censorship, but you have to remember that many people still carry primitive prejudices on this blog. And this is especially the case whenever discussion turns to people with more melanin. There’s no reason to overanalyse it more than that.

    • Replies: @EldnahYm
    @Thulean Friend

    No people in the world are as conscious about skin color as Indians* are, so your point rings hollow. You are either a master of irony or are totally clueless about people and how they behave.

    *ok Chinese women are an exception

    , @Daniel Chieh
    @Thulean Friend

    It is surely merely coincidence that so many posters here who have worked with Indians have had the same experiences of nepotism with them.

    Replies: @Grahamsno(G64), @AP

  71. @Ludwig
    One of the fascinating things about this blog is seeing how commentators who can otherwise intelligently delve into what happened in some small region three hundred years ago in Central Europe, are reduced to superficial, tribal idiots when talking about cultures outside Europe.

    For example, there are those who conflate achievement/behavior patterns of Indian Americans - themselves a stratified bunch across educational achievement, business acumen (influenced no doubt by caste/regional ethnicity back in India) - with India as a whole, and who have actually made the jaw dropping comments that high achieving people from a country (in this case India) should not be allowed in because apparently the country of origin is infested with cooties. This is the kind of thinking one would associate with babbling idiots but the same person can otherwise intelligently discuss the area of his expertise which lies entirely within Europe.

    This same person - and others such - also rail against the alleged tribalism and nepotism of Indian Americans as a reason for them making it, entirely ironically missing their own extreme tribalism - and deep ignorance - in making these comments.

    So one then is to believe that Sundar Pichai became head of Google because Larry Page, Sergei Brin, Eric Schmidt et al were crypto-Indians. Similarly with Satya Nadella who was personally groomed by Bill Gates and turned Microsoft around after the disastrous Steve Ballmer. And apparently scientists like these 12 Indians deeply involved in NASA Mars missions https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/other/meet-the-indians-on-the-mars-perseverance-team/ar-BB1e4aye got their jobs (and many accolades) simply because JPL is sone Indian stronghold (rather than one that attracts highly motivated, intelligent scientists worldwide. There are many other nationalities who also work at JPL).

    These same commentators would rail against Wokeism - which is identity politics run amok for the benefit of grifters and power hungry opportunists of all colors - but then apparently objective merit based achievements in the US - which they would otherwise support - in which both EA and SA (Indians) are over-represented is due to “nepotism”.

    Clearly family based businesses, like small shops or motels etc are “nepotistic” in the same way that any privately held organization - eg the Trump Organization - is nepotistic. (Even publicly owned businesses eg Ford, Walmart were nepotistic and indeed quite exclusionary to people of the wrong color for quite a while. THAT apparently is not nepotistic or tribal.)

    Meanwhile another prolific commentator replying to a interesting comment worth exploring on how apparently a Brahmin Indian American were upset about a child partnering with a Japanese American, missed the whole point by showing a picture of developed Japanese city and a destitute Indian community as if this same Brahmin family in the US would be delighted if their child married someone from that community instead. So “India” then is not represented as a multi-dimensional bell curve - as indeed every large grouping can be - but by one image.

    Reading this blog then has reinforced my observation about many people: that they can be highly intellectual and discerning about certain topics but fall back into primitive drooling tribalism and idiocy outside their topic of expertise. In other words, the logic, commitment to reason and inquiry they display in their area is cast aside in favor of their raw emotions and deep prejudices outside it.

    I’ve noticed this in RL where many acquaintances who are deep experts in their fields - even in hard fields like Physics, AI etc - end up believing the most inane, easily falsifiable and contradictory propaganda against say Russia displaying a complete lack of curiosity, intellectual rigor that they spent their professional lives steeped in. Russia to them is what the NYT/Western media tells them it is.

    Another observation I can make based on this blog alone is that, Karlin being a prominent exception, many Russian or pro-Russian commentators seem to live in a bubble formed circa the 19th century - or charitably the late 20th century - and horrified and bewildered about the world they find themselves in with all non-white, non-Christians suddenly polluting the views outside their bubbles. While these commentators can endlessly dissect the many communities among Europe - and divide them into 15,000 different strands of tribal origins and disputes that persist till today - the world outside it is evidently divided into only five or six groupings with no understanding or curiosity of the variety and deep histories within them. For example in the grouping of complex ethno-states called India, there are 400+ languages alone, with about 20 main ones spoken by tens of millions.

    Fortunately for Russia, it appears Putin & co - while strongly maintaining the ties to the past - have been ahead of many of their countrymen in realizing the future of Russia, rather than an imagined nostalgic glorious past, lies in greater ties not with the West - which is seeing its 500 years of hegemony being challenged amidst their own internal divisions - but with the rest of the wide World with all its myriad communities as history remorselessly marches on.

    Replies: @Thulean Friend, @Beckow, @Anatoly Karlin, @EldnahYm

    A lot of what you wrote is a projection of what you think others may think, not really what they wrote. The talk of bubbles and 19th century is a classical straw-man argument: because one doesn’t want his society overrun by tens of millions migrants from the Third World doesn’t at all mean that they want to restore 1888 or have normal inter-cultural relations with normal people from different cultures – in numbers that have always existed and always will.

    So why create a straw-man? Usually when someone fights a straw-man it is because they have nothing to say about the actual issues, it is a way to avoid a discussion. You do slightly better, and actually address some real points – so let me respond:

    There are intelligent Indians and India has 400+ languages: but that is irrelevant to the point that large numbers of Indians who are neither particularly intelligent nor needed are migrating to the West. There are 1.5 billion of them, how many do you want to come? And why should young professionals be displaced by them? Because you think they are “smarter”, or because Bill Gates likes them because they are cheaper? That Steve Ballmer is an idiot changes nothing, there are idiots of all nationalities. The Indian guy running Citi a few years back was not exactly a genius.

    Using a few names – as you do – is also completely irrelevant. This is about large numbers, not about a few over-achievers. When you go there you are again simply trying to avoid a discussion because you sense that you would lose the argument.

    You argue that if one criticises others for self-serving or other behaviors, he should in turn not show a preference for his own group. Ideally. But in a world we live in that is nonsense. Trying to be objective is intellectually nice, but in practise it doesn’t work. It is another technique to disempower smarter people by appealing to their sense of fair-play. For me it is enough that we on our side are ‘fairer”, not perfect by any standard, but fairer. We listen to their arguments, they don’t listen to ours. There is no point in dying on that hill, nobody would remember it.

    • Replies: @Ludwig
    @Beckow

    Since you chose to engage:


    A lot of what you wrote is a projection of what you think others may think, not really what they wrote. The talk of bubbles and 19th century is a classical straw-man argument: because one doesn’t want his society overrun by tens of millions migrants from the Third World doesn’t at all mean that they want to restore 1888 or have normal inter-cultural relations with normal people from different cultures – in numbers that have always existed and always will.
     
    You seem paranoid about being whatever pristine society you think exists in your own mind, being “overrun” by the “Third world”.

    Firstly, you fit the archetype of bubble ignorance painting a broad brush over what you claim as the “Third world” which is essentially based on current development standards and which has changed through history. For you the horror of anyone from the Third World is dark, diseased migrants carrying the plague apparently (as per a highly ignorant and revealing post where your response to my talking of highly educated Indian Americans was “But India has the plague” which was not only untrue, but even if it were true is a complete non sequitur.)

    Secondly, lumping together all the myriad nationalities across the “Third World” and the different types of migrants into one type is further proof of your absolute inability to be rational and knowledgeable outside your narrow field of expertise (and even narrower mindset).

    Take India: To travel out from India requires mostly planes unlike African or Middle Eastern refugees into Europe, or Latin American refugees into the US who migrated across land en mass.

    The bulk of Indian Americans migrated legally across a few different channels:

    A) highly educated ones that come for studies and remain and/or executives at top positions (one can include other fields like actors/sports stars or the visa category for “highly accomplished immigrants” [paraphrasing] which speeds up the immigration process. Sundar Pichai and Satya Nadella are examples of the former. The bulk of top executives across the US have similar profiles as are many scientists, doctors and so on. (Yes, like with every situation there are grifters, fakes etc but on the whole like the hordes of immigrants before them including many European ones over the centuries, they have allowed the US to keep a technological and economic edge.). These types are mostly from higher castes in India who have had the opportunity and culture of seeking higher education. They advance through sheer merit and hard work and are represented in the group Karlin mentions above.

    B) consultants who come on temporary visas for work and find permanent work visas. These are criticized for depressing wages of existing Americans. Incidentally from my observation very few of these rise to the top of the food chain since by the time they get their permanent residency they are too old to advance beyond a certain level. Meanwhile US companies like these workers since they help profits and keep them competitive.

    C) small business owners: they are the mom and pop shops, the bodegas, the motels etc. Many of these come from a few locations in India like the state of Gujarat which is known for hard working business minded, closely knit communities.

    D) marriages/chain migration: application for immediate family members. Indians - like many Asians - have a culture of taking care of their parents and even those who come are taken care of by the family and not thrown in the streets to be taken care of the welfare state. Meanwhile chain migration of siblings etc has slowed since the visa process for this category takes decades and as India’s economic opportunities have improved, less desire to make the trip.

    E) lottery/political refugees: this is relatively rare. There are some cases of people claiming to flee persecution (eg Sikhs) but they are relatively minor. Lottery for Indians I believe is non-existent (along with other nationalities who have significant presence in the US).

    What you think of hordes of Indians, those poor masses you see from your bubble, mostly make it to the Gulf countries of at all where they work as indentured labor.

    Incidentally the Gulf countries also take in highly educated Indians and nationalities from everywhere. Dubai for example realized that it cannot rely on an oil economy and in addition to poor labor, has invested in attracting technical talent from everywhere. So in Dubai, a lot of hotel executives, financiers, doctors I’ve encountered are Indians (and some Pakistani esp doctors); I also know of at least one Indian American AI expert who was offered a crazy salary to put together a team in Abu Dhabi to advance AI technologies. As evidenced by its recent patch up with Israel, the Gulf countries - while maintaining the primacy of their monarchies and Arab culture - are casting a wide net to attract too talent regardless of origin (I’ve met Nigerian financiers in Dubai as well for example.)


    There are intelligent Indians and India has 400+ languages: but that is irrelevant to the point that large numbers of Indians who are neither particularly intelligent nor needed are migrating to the West. There are 1.5 billion of them, how many do you want to come? And why should young professionals be displaced by them? Because you think they are “smarter”, or because Bill Gates likes them because they are cheaper? That Steve Ballmer is an idiot changes nothing, there are idiots of all nationalities. The Indian guy running Citi a few years back was not exactly a genius.

    Using a few names – as you do – is also completely irrelevant. This is about large numbers, not about a few over-achievers. When you go there you are again simply trying to avoid a discussion because you sense that you would lose the argument.

     

    You are contradicting yourself and in your blind bigorty don’t even realize it. India has 1.4 billion people and say even 1% are intelligent/over achievers as opposed to say 10% of Russians, that’s about the same number of intelligent people, say 14 million people. If you look at the distribution of Indian Americans in the US, these overachievers are the ones who are overwhelmingly represented there. Indian Americans are - on average - objectively at the top end of wealth, academic achievement etc. One example is the paper that Karlin cites in his thread.

    This is why talking of the 1.4 billion people is irrelevant when we are talking about a subset of them who are not necessarily representative of the larger group. For example, by causal observation in NY (or in Dubai or many places in Europe for that matter), Slavic women seem over represented in one particular profession. This does not necessarily mean that this is the general distribution back in Russia/Ukraine/Belarus.

    So clearly - like most immigrants - these Indians are not representative of their countries. So talking about the 1.4 billion Indians - as if they are one undifferentiated mass - is not just ignorant but irrelevant. It’s talking about what kind of talent you want whether it is from Germany, India or New Guinea.

    The fundamental problem you have is that while you can expound in some detail about different East European nationalities and their complex histories, once you see an “Indian” your pre-frontal cortex shuts down and your limbic brain takes over (like implying that Satya Nadella became CEO of Microsoft because of “cheap labor”). You seem to conflate Indians in US or even Europe with the desperate hordes escaping poverty across land borders. They are not.


    You argue that if one criticises others for self-serving or other behaviors, he should in turn not show a preference for his own group. Ideally. But in a world we live in that is nonsense. Trying to be objective is intellectually nice, but in practise it doesn’t work. It is another technique to disempower smarter people by appealing to their sense of fair-play. For me it is enough that we on our side are ‘fairer”, not perfect by any standard, but fairer. We listen to their arguments, they don’t listen to ours. There is no point in dying on that hill, nobody would remember it.
     
    I am criticizing those like you who accuse Indians specifically of being groupist - and falsely claiming their achievement in the US is primally a result of this - of taking a basic human trait and making it specifically about Indians. I have no problem with say Russians hanging out with other Russians, Indians with a Indians (and sub groupings therein), Chinese with Chinese, Italian Americans with Italian Americans etc. We gravitate towards people with whom we have shared culture/passions. I enjoy this group because even when I disagree with many points, there is usually some effort towards rational, intellectual discussion which I have a passion for and learn from. (There is also a lot of irrational discussion which I mostly ignore except in cases like this).

    But let me alleviate your concern in one regard at least when it comes to Russia. As far as I can tell, the opinion of Russia from the elites to the general public in India, Indonesia etc is mostly formed by Western opinion which means they think Russia is a cold, authoritarian place where Putin and the KGB pretty much tell you what to do, the men are either criminals or drunk on vodka and the women - well they are known for that profession which is available in most countries outside Russia anyways. So no one is clamoring to get into Russia. Poor migrants look to the Gulf countries to repatriate money; educated ones either go West or increasingly remain at home to join thriving economies. (Indonesia is 7th by PPP).

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @DNS, @Pumblechook, @Anatoly Karlin, @Beckow

  72. @reiner Tor
    @Daniel Chieh

    Do they eat more soy than Indians?

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    Almost certainly cultural/genetic co-evolution rather than just soy-based diet or the like. From E.A. Ross, it seems had been pretty much typical even in the 1900s:

    Chinese children do not run, romp, and climb like ours. Their schoolboys are less riotous than white boys. Athletic sports are unknown. One recreates with kite flying, cricket fighting, gambling, chess, or letting off fire-crackers. To sip wine and cap verses in a shady arbor or a cool grotto by a lotus pond is a gentleman’s ideal of happiness. There is game aplenty in some parts, but no one shoots save the pot hunter with his rusty matchlock. No one bestrides a horse for pleasure. The placid mule is preferred to the horse and a gentle amble to a brisk gallop. When the mounted soldier gets up speed, the sight is a salve for sore eyes. Boxing would never occur to anyone as a sport. Fighting is rare and, far from being a manly exchange of blows, is waged girl-wise, with scratching and hair-pulling. The singing of the men is a nasal falsetto in strange contrast to the abdomiual bellow of Western males.

    E.A.Ross, The Changing Chinese

    https://www.unz.com/book/e_a_ross__the-changing-chinese/

    Search UI is horrible for Unz books, incidentally.

    • Replies: @EldnahYm
    @Daniel Chieh

    That sounds like a description of Cantonese people. Northern Chinese are not like that in my experience.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @Long term lurker

    , @Bashibuzuk
    @Daniel Chieh


    Boxing would never occur to anyone as a sport. Fighting is rare and, far from being a manly exchange of blows, is waged girl-wise, with scratching and hair-pulling.
     

    https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/8a74a60abcb8d52b6dc6e674ce3decc31ad8deb9/0_257_2999_1802/master/2999.jpg?width=1200&height=1200&quality=85&auto=format&fit=crop&s=4231c25f20c179fec74485091896bd3d

    Also, Boxer Rebellion...

    , @European-American
    @Daniel Chieh

    Thanks!

  73. @AP
    @Thulean Friend

    This would match my anecdotal knowledge of the dozen or so Indians (or adjacent) I’ve known. Everyone has been Brahmin, except for a general’s daughter, and a colleague who comes from a wealthy Christian family in Kerala. Without exception nice and gracious towards colleagues and peers, but I’ve heard that some of them behave with open contempt towards those they perceive as underlings (I have seen something similar from a rich Russian friend towards waiters or store clerks).

    In Nepal the upper castes are Indo-Aryans while lower castes are Tibetan-Asians. I know an immigrant Brahmin Nepalese family that was in crisis when their kid was dating a much wealthier Japanese kid. In their view, East Asians by default were of lower caste and therefore this relationship was a source of shame.

    Replies: @Blinky Bill, @Ludwig, @AltanBakshi

    In Nepal the upper castes are Indo-Aryans while lower castes are Tibetan-Asians. I know an immigrant Brahmin Nepalese family that was in crisis when their kid was dating a much wealthier Japanese kid. In their view, East Asians by default were of lower caste and therefore this relationship was a source of shame.

    I have a few personal knowledge data points here which I think I can say might extrapolates out.

    One is an Indian American woman, a South Indian Brahmin, and a successful executive in a Wall St firm who married a Han Chinese whose parents were born in Hong Kong and migrated to Canada – to escape in part discrimination from both richer Hans and Cantonese it seems – where he was born and he himself migrated to US where he was working on Wall St and met this woman. The woman is much more the loquacious one and the decision maker of the couple while the husband is quieter and seemingly more complacent and docile. Both sets of parents are well educated, with the Chinese parent a PhD in academia while the Indian parent is a top executive in a multi-National global commodities firm. In terms of approval from what I gather from the couple, the Chinese parents mildly preferred a Chinese wife for their son but mostly indifferent. The Indian parents would have preferred someone from their own community but accepted the marriage and last heard were happy especially with the arrival of a grandchild.

    There was another case I encountered where an urban South Indian Brahmin man married an urban North Indian Punjabi woman from the “Warrior” caste. Both were highly educated and had emigrated to the US. Apparently there was some initial disquiet in both the families when the alliance was first announced. Generally North Indians – especially from Punjab who are typically light skinned and more Pathan looking (as she indeed was) having on average been later migrations to the Indian subcontinent with little mixture of the existing native population from earlier migrations – looked down on South Indians who were seen as more “native” or having more ancient blood (many hill tribes in the South India, like the Aborigines in Australia, or the Ainu in Japan, are ancient populations). Meanwhile the South Indian Brahmin parents being more conservative also were disquieted by the woman from being a “lower” caste (though the Warrior caste – the Nobility – is not so much vertically down from the Brahmin – the Priest – class as much as slanted if you will). Still the marriage apparently went off without a hitch (despite awkward ritualistic differences between the cultures that were quite interesting to learn about).

  74. @Thulean Friend
    @Ludwig

    It's just crude racism. There can be interesting discussions here, and I appreciate the relative lack of censorship, but you have to remember that many people still carry primitive prejudices on this blog. And this is especially the case whenever discussion turns to people with more melanin. There's no reason to overanalyse it more than that.

    Replies: @EldnahYm, @Daniel Chieh

    No people in the world are as conscious about skin color as Indians* are, so your point rings hollow. You are either a master of irony or are totally clueless about people and how they behave.

    *ok Chinese women are an exception

  75. @Almost Missouri
    @Long time lurker

    Wait, Canada has "far-right parties"?

    Replies: @Long term lurker

    None that made it into power, just like how we theoreically have a communist party.

  76. @Thulean Friend
    @Ludwig

    It's just crude racism. There can be interesting discussions here, and I appreciate the relative lack of censorship, but you have to remember that many people still carry primitive prejudices on this blog. And this is especially the case whenever discussion turns to people with more melanin. There's no reason to overanalyse it more than that.

    Replies: @EldnahYm, @Daniel Chieh

    It is surely merely coincidence that so many posters here who have worked with Indians have had the same experiences of nepotism with them.

    • Replies: @Grahamsno(G64)
    @Daniel Chieh

    What about the post by Blinky Bill on Indians in Singapore, Singapore one of the best run states in the world and is about as close as you can get to a meritocracy, a Singaporean Chinese business man told me that they run the whole state like a corporation, he said since Singapore didn't have any resources they carefully cultivated human resources, that the government spots outstanding talent very early on and cultivates it for public service and that the government picks the cream of the crop. So the visible overrepresentation of Indians in Singaporean public life couldn't have come through nepotism, they were picked by the Singaporean bureaucracy which puts such a high premium on talent.

    Basically Indians do well everywhere except in India where in some states they reach African levels of dysfunction.

    , @AP
    @Daniel Chieh

    I’m not in Tech but I have also heard this from those I know who are.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh

  77. @Daniel Chieh
    @reiner Tor

    Almost certainly cultural/genetic co-evolution rather than just soy-based diet or the like. From E.A. Ross, it seems had been pretty much typical even in the 1900s:

    Chinese children do not run, romp, and climb like ours. Their schoolboys are less riotous than white boys. Athletic sports are unknown. One recreates with kite flying, cricket fighting, gambling, chess, or letting off fire-crackers. To sip wine and cap verses in a shady arbor or a cool grotto by a lotus pond is a gentleman’s ideal of happiness. There is game aplenty in some parts, but no one shoots save the pot hunter with his rusty matchlock. No one bestrides a horse for pleasure. The placid mule is preferred to the horse and a gentle amble to a brisk gallop. When the mounted soldier gets up speed, the sight is a salve for sore eyes. Boxing would never occur to anyone as a sport. Fighting is rare and, far from being a manly exchange of blows, is waged girl-wise, with scratching and hair-pulling. The singing of the men is a nasal falsetto in strange contrast to the abdomiual bellow of Western males.
     

    E.A.Ross, The Changing Chinese

    https://www.unz.com/book/e_a_ross__the-changing-chinese/

    Search UI is horrible for Unz books, incidentally.

    Replies: @EldnahYm, @Bashibuzuk, @European-American

    That sounds like a description of Cantonese people. Northern Chinese are not like that in my experience.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    @EldnahYm

    Chinese population is pretty heavy to the south, so it would be an effect even if not universal.

    https://saylordotorg.github.io/text_world-regional-geography-people-places-and-globalization/section_13/2188ec2232f5d9f5d0ebdb4ee61601bd.jpg

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    , @Long term lurker
    @EldnahYm

    Northwestern Chinese are said to fight on the drop of a dime, and are considerably more manly in stereotyping. String rectangular faces, high noses, study bodies. Most Chinese we're used to, myself included, are southerners because southerners are close to the ocean and migrated most easily. I was personally stunned by how many men they found who have the actual facial features of the terracotta army in the Qin Empire tv drama epic.

    Replies: @EldnahYm

  78. @128
    How do the pro-China altrighters here feel about China shilling for George Floyd and BLM?

    Replies: @Long term lurker, @Pericles, @songbird, @Anatoly Karlin

    First cope: it’s a 5d chess move.

  79. From my experience the authors are correct in the premise that assertiveness is key to rising in Western companies. The East Asians seem more measured/halting in their speech and more likely to consider other viewpoints which may seem weak in Western organizations. However if we look at the Fortune global 500 list East Asian countries are well represented which leads one to wonder if promotions based on assertiveness are a good strategy for success.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortune_Global_500

  80. @EldnahYm
    @Daniel Chieh

    That sounds like a description of Cantonese people. Northern Chinese are not like that in my experience.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @Long term lurker

    Chinese population is pretty heavy to the south, so it would be an effect even if not universal.

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @Daniel Chieh

    No, it's not, still about 40% of people live in the North and North China plain is most important population centre of Chinese people.

    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/66/d7/73/66d77323aeb7d1cfa4e38d9a45af2376.jpg

  81. @EldnahYm
    @Daniel Chieh

    That sounds like a description of Cantonese people. Northern Chinese are not like that in my experience.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @Long term lurker

    Northwestern Chinese are said to fight on the drop of a dime, and are considerably more manly in stereotyping. String rectangular faces, high noses, study bodies. Most Chinese we’re used to, myself included, are southerners because southerners are close to the ocean and migrated most easily. I was personally stunned by how many men they found who have the actual facial features of the terracotta army in the Qin Empire tv drama epic.

    • Replies: @EldnahYm
    @Long term lurker

    Agreed. Actually it was this passage: "Fighting is rare and, far from being a manly exchange of blows, is waged girl-wise, with scratching and hair-pulling" that most stood out to me as being based upon Cantonese people.

    A general rule of thumb for China is that the more west you go(also true of border regions), the more lawless and crazy it is, the more north you go, you get people who are taller and more extroverted, nationalistic, and heavy drinkers. In the southeast, you get shorter, more business-oriented people who know how to bend every single rule. This is a crude generalization with many exceptions(people from Hunan for example are quite nationalistic), but as a crude stereotype it works.

    Most people's stereotypes about Chinese are based on their observations about people from Guangdong/Hong Kong and Fujian. So they sometimes have views about the Chinese which are exaggerated.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

  82. @Long term lurker
    @EldnahYm

    Northwestern Chinese are said to fight on the drop of a dime, and are considerably more manly in stereotyping. String rectangular faces, high noses, study bodies. Most Chinese we're used to, myself included, are southerners because southerners are close to the ocean and migrated most easily. I was personally stunned by how many men they found who have the actual facial features of the terracotta army in the Qin Empire tv drama epic.

    Replies: @EldnahYm

    Agreed. Actually it was this passage: “Fighting is rare and, far from being a manly exchange of blows, is waged girl-wise, with scratching and hair-pulling” that most stood out to me as being based upon Cantonese people.

    A general rule of thumb for China is that the more west you go(also true of border regions), the more lawless and crazy it is, the more north you go, you get people who are taller and more extroverted, nationalistic, and heavy drinkers. In the southeast, you get shorter, more business-oriented people who know how to bend every single rule. This is a crude generalization with many exceptions(people from Hunan for example are quite nationalistic), but as a crude stereotype it works.

    Most people’s stereotypes about Chinese are based on their observations about people from Guangdong/Hong Kong and Fujian. So they sometimes have views about the Chinese which are exaggerated.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    @EldnahYm

    I think ultimately the lower effective T is consistent with findings such as ethnic differences in testicle weight(33% lower in East Asians) and DHT ratio(which is has the strongest virilizing effect on males):


    However, the DHT:testosterone ratio was highest in African-Americans, intermediate in whites, and lowest in Asian-Americans, corresponding to the respective incidence rates in these groups and providing indirect evidence for ethnic differences in 5alpha-reductase enzyme activity.
     
    As with the other findings(consistently higher Hispanic testicle weight vs Caucasian), it probably is genetic rather than environmental factors.

    Replies: @Jatt Aryaa

    , @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms
    @EldnahYm

    Appearances can be deceiving. Currently the fastest non-black in 100m is a Canto:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Su_Bingtian

    Su’s best time in 100m is 9.91, in comparison, fastest white guy is Lemaitre at 9.92

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christophe_Lemaitre

    Here he is next to Usain Bolt

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAWilTjsBxg

  83. Basically, it’s a mirror of “Coffee House” demographics patterns.

    Are you implying some meaning in this correlation? Do you see correlation between the “psychopathic” (see nyborg’s comment) traits of management careerists and the geeky types of utilitarianism/futurism/posthumanism?

    There is also negative correlation in the “Burning man 2014” category, which I guess is related less to the aforementioned “geeks” and more to liberal/libertine/hippie types (“hippie” might be a misleading characterisation: it was once supposed to imply non-conformism, nowadays hardly so). Do you see this negative correlation as an outlier or as “positive anti-correlation” instead?

  84. @Beckow
    @Ludwig

    A lot of what you wrote is a projection of what you think others may think, not really what they wrote. The talk of bubbles and 19th century is a classical straw-man argument: because one doesn't want his society overrun by tens of millions migrants from the Third World doesn't at all mean that they want to restore 1888 or have normal inter-cultural relations with normal people from different cultures - in numbers that have always existed and always will.

    So why create a straw-man? Usually when someone fights a straw-man it is because they have nothing to say about the actual issues, it is a way to avoid a discussion. You do slightly better, and actually address some real points - so let me respond:

    There are intelligent Indians and India has 400+ languages: but that is irrelevant to the point that large numbers of Indians who are neither particularly intelligent nor needed are migrating to the West. There are 1.5 billion of them, how many do you want to come? And why should young professionals be displaced by them? Because you think they are "smarter", or because Bill Gates likes them because they are cheaper? That Steve Ballmer is an idiot changes nothing, there are idiots of all nationalities. The Indian guy running Citi a few years back was not exactly a genius.

    Using a few names - as you do - is also completely irrelevant. This is about large numbers, not about a few over-achievers. When you go there you are again simply trying to avoid a discussion because you sense that you would lose the argument.

    You argue that if one criticises others for self-serving or other behaviors, he should in turn not show a preference for his own group. Ideally. But in a world we live in that is nonsense. Trying to be objective is intellectually nice, but in practise it doesn't work. It is another technique to disempower smarter people by appealing to their sense of fair-play. For me it is enough that we on our side are 'fairer", not perfect by any standard, but fairer. We listen to their arguments, they don't listen to ours. There is no point in dying on that hill, nobody would remember it.

    Replies: @Ludwig

    Since you chose to engage:

    A lot of what you wrote is a projection of what you think others may think, not really what they wrote. The talk of bubbles and 19th century is a classical straw-man argument: because one doesn’t want his society overrun by tens of millions migrants from the Third World doesn’t at all mean that they want to restore 1888 or have normal inter-cultural relations with normal people from different cultures – in numbers that have always existed and always will.

    You seem paranoid about being whatever pristine society you think exists in your own mind, being “overrun” by the “Third world”.

    Firstly, you fit the archetype of bubble ignorance painting a broad brush over what you claim as the “Third world” which is essentially based on current development standards and which has changed through history. For you the horror of anyone from the Third World is dark, diseased migrants carrying the plague apparently (as per a highly ignorant and revealing post where your response to my talking of highly educated Indian Americans was “But India has the plague” which was not only untrue, but even if it were true is a complete non sequitur.)

    Secondly, lumping together all the myriad nationalities across the “Third World” and the different types of migrants into one type is further proof of your absolute inability to be rational and knowledgeable outside your narrow field of expertise (and even narrower mindset).

    Take India: To travel out from India requires mostly planes unlike African or Middle Eastern refugees into Europe, or Latin American refugees into the US who migrated across land en mass.

    The bulk of Indian Americans migrated legally across a few different channels:

    A) highly educated ones that come for studies and remain and/or executives at top positions (one can include other fields like actors/sports stars or the visa category for “highly accomplished immigrants” [paraphrasing] which speeds up the immigration process. Sundar Pichai and Satya Nadella are examples of the former. The bulk of top executives across the US have similar profiles as are many scientists, doctors and so on. (Yes, like with every situation there are grifters, fakes etc but on the whole like the hordes of immigrants before them including many European ones over the centuries, they have allowed the US to keep a technological and economic edge.). These types are mostly from higher castes in India who have had the opportunity and culture of seeking higher education. They advance through sheer merit and hard work and are represented in the group Karlin mentions above.

    B) consultants who come on temporary visas for work and find permanent work visas. These are criticized for depressing wages of existing Americans. Incidentally from my observation very few of these rise to the top of the food chain since by the time they get their permanent residency they are too old to advance beyond a certain level. Meanwhile US companies like these workers since they help profits and keep them competitive.

    C) small business owners: they are the mom and pop shops, the bodegas, the motels etc. Many of these come from a few locations in India like the state of Gujarat which is known for hard working business minded, closely knit communities.

    D) marriages/chain migration: application for immediate family members. Indians – like many Asians – have a culture of taking care of their parents and even those who come are taken care of by the family and not thrown in the streets to be taken care of the welfare state. Meanwhile chain migration of siblings etc has slowed since the visa process for this category takes decades and as India’s economic opportunities have improved, less desire to make the trip.

    E) lottery/political refugees: this is relatively rare. There are some cases of people claiming to flee persecution (eg Sikhs) but they are relatively minor. Lottery for Indians I believe is non-existent (along with other nationalities who have significant presence in the US).

    What you think of hordes of Indians, those poor masses you see from your bubble, mostly make it to the Gulf countries of at all where they work as indentured labor.

    Incidentally the Gulf countries also take in highly educated Indians and nationalities from everywhere. Dubai for example realized that it cannot rely on an oil economy and in addition to poor labor, has invested in attracting technical talent from everywhere. So in Dubai, a lot of hotel executives, financiers, doctors I’ve encountered are Indians (and some Pakistani esp doctors); I also know of at least one Indian American AI expert who was offered a crazy salary to put together a team in Abu Dhabi to advance AI technologies. As evidenced by its recent patch up with Israel, the Gulf countries – while maintaining the primacy of their monarchies and Arab culture – are casting a wide net to attract too talent regardless of origin (I’ve met Nigerian financiers in Dubai as well for example.)

    There are intelligent Indians and India has 400+ languages: but that is irrelevant to the point that large numbers of Indians who are neither particularly intelligent nor needed are migrating to the West. There are 1.5 billion of them, how many do you want to come? And why should young professionals be displaced by them? Because you think they are “smarter”, or because Bill Gates likes them because they are cheaper? That Steve Ballmer is an idiot changes nothing, there are idiots of all nationalities. The Indian guy running Citi a few years back was not exactly a genius.

    Using a few names – as you do – is also completely irrelevant. This is about large numbers, not about a few over-achievers. When you go there you are again simply trying to avoid a discussion because you sense that you would lose the argument.

    You are contradicting yourself and in your blind bigorty don’t even realize it. India has 1.4 billion people and say even 1% are intelligent/over achievers as opposed to say 10% of Russians, that’s about the same number of intelligent people, say 14 million people. If you look at the distribution of Indian Americans in the US, these overachievers are the ones who are overwhelmingly represented there. Indian Americans are – on average – objectively at the top end of wealth, academic achievement etc. One example is the paper that Karlin cites in his thread.

    This is why talking of the 1.4 billion people is irrelevant when we are talking about a subset of them who are not necessarily representative of the larger group. For example, by causal observation in NY (or in Dubai or many places in Europe for that matter), Slavic women seem over represented in one particular profession. This does not necessarily mean that this is the general distribution back in Russia/Ukraine/Belarus.

    So clearly – like most immigrants – these Indians are not representative of their countries. So talking about the 1.4 billion Indians – as if they are one undifferentiated mass – is not just ignorant but irrelevant. It’s talking about what kind of talent you want whether it is from Germany, India or New Guinea.

    The fundamental problem you have is that while you can expound in some detail about different East European nationalities and their complex histories, once you see an “Indian” your pre-frontal cortex shuts down and your limbic brain takes over (like implying that Satya Nadella became CEO of Microsoft because of “cheap labor”). You seem to conflate Indians in US or even Europe with the desperate hordes escaping poverty across land borders. They are not.

    You argue that if one criticises others for self-serving or other behaviors, he should in turn not show a preference for his own group. Ideally. But in a world we live in that is nonsense. Trying to be objective is intellectually nice, but in practise it doesn’t work. It is another technique to disempower smarter people by appealing to their sense of fair-play. For me it is enough that we on our side are ‘fairer”, not perfect by any standard, but fairer. We listen to their arguments, they don’t listen to ours. There is no point in dying on that hill, nobody would remember it.

    I am criticizing those like you who accuse Indians specifically of being groupist – and falsely claiming their achievement in the US is primally a result of this – of taking a basic human trait and making it specifically about Indians. I have no problem with say Russians hanging out with other Russians, Indians with a Indians (and sub groupings therein), Chinese with Chinese, Italian Americans with Italian Americans etc. We gravitate towards people with whom we have shared culture/passions. I enjoy this group because even when I disagree with many points, there is usually some effort towards rational, intellectual discussion which I have a passion for and learn from. (There is also a lot of irrational discussion which I mostly ignore except in cases like this).

    But let me alleviate your concern in one regard at least when it comes to Russia. As far as I can tell, the opinion of Russia from the elites to the general public in India, Indonesia etc is mostly formed by Western opinion which means they think Russia is a cold, authoritarian place where Putin and the KGB pretty much tell you what to do, the men are either criminals or drunk on vodka and the women – well they are known for that profession which is available in most countries outside Russia anyways. So no one is clamoring to get into Russia. Poor migrants look to the Gulf countries to repatriate money; educated ones either go West or increasingly remain at home to join thriving economies. (Indonesia is 7th by PPP).

    • Agree: Vishnugupta, Jatt Aryaa
    • LOL: Daniel Chieh
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    @Ludwig


    They advance through sheer merit and hard work and are represented in the group Karlin mentions above.
     
    Oh really.

    What I found generally entertaining about the entire, clearly emotionally driven rant was their prominence is "purely" because of their evident genius, as if intelligence necessarily excluded political capability, nepotism or outright corruption.

    Why would it? People can be plenty intelligent and at the same time and token, also be very aware that if they staff the office with friendly colleagues, they can advance much further. So much more so when said colleagues are also from India, owe their present in a first-world country to a specific individual, and group together cohesively against others.

    That kind of behavior is both intelligent and effective, especially when it can be coupled with capable workers. Its also seen by many as being quite nepotistic and wrong, and ultimately is the same kind of corruption that plagues the Indian government and their corporations, exported elsewhere.

    Russia is a cold, authoritarian place where Putin and the KGB pretty much tell you what to do, the men are either criminals or drunk on vodka and the women – well they are known for that profession which is available in most countries outside Russia anyways. So no one is clamoring to get into Russia.
     
    Speaking of psychopathic projection, it took only a mild level of offense for you to pretty much call Russians alcoholic criminals and whores. Excellent demonstration, well done. Its a good example of the kind of verbal aggression that serves Indians well.

    Replies: @Thulean Friend

    , @DNS
    @Ludwig

    Beckow has a particular obsession with Indian sub-continentals and the demographic threat they post to Western Civilisation and its Peoples, perhaps informed by his experience with Gypsies - that other notable Indian diaspora population - in his native Slovakia. Although, he wouldn't be the first to make this observation.

    Lord Archer: Indians are the 'new Jews' and are taking over Britain

    The desire to permanently relocate from South Asia is fairly low according to this Gallup poll/survey, however 8% of 1.5 billion+ is still a lot, so he does have a point that migration from the Indian sub-continent will greatly change the ethnic character of Western nations in the near future.

    https://content.gallup.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Production/Cms/POLL/42jcbvgfbuaf9fca-retea.gif

    Replies: @AP

    , @Pumblechook
    @Ludwig

    To put it bluntly, but not wanting to be rude, you seem to be reading and writing too much into it - at the high level, there are many people on this forum who are ethnonationalist to some degree. And if it is not already obvious to you, Indians are:

    a) very high in number
    b) across all societal levels, there is a great desire to leave their country behind and settle abroad - and Eastern Europe is definitely now on the menu, in particular the EU parts


    There are, I believe, particular Indian traits/characteristics which 'trigger' non-Indians in a way that not all populations manage to do - but this would be irrelevant if it were not for the 1.4 billion population and desire to emigrate. Working in a multinational IT company, I've had the chance to interact with many many Indians from many many different backgrounds.

    Goes without saying, at their best I have encountered erudite, kind, intelligent Indians without any weird agendas. But for sure, there is a disproportionate number which tick one or more of the following criteria:

    - nasty tendency to treat inferiors with derision and lick the boots of superiors
    - inferiority complex towards 'goras' combined with psycho-sexual fixation with them
    - highly attuned antenna to when they are about to be blamed correctly for doing something wrong, and preparing reasons/justifications as to why others are in fact to blame
    - an arrogance in a small number of high-caste types obviously raised as the centre of the universe...this is not the usual arrogance a westerner might have in mind...though i'm sure lower caste Indians can emphasise with this one
    - one of the worst for me; the pro-BJP types who nonetheless wag fingers about the West being racist and needing to be more multicultural. Particularly to hear that in Europe, it is completely unacceptable
    - bringing in their own network as contractors on projects for juicy day rates. Always found it astounding that there are young professionals on permanent contracts being paid 1/3 of what was paid to foreigners who can't even speak English and without a loose understanding of IT. Any serious country would ensure that money goes to locals who need to raise a family and build the nation

    Whilst I've also worked closely with Japanese, Latin Americans and Romanians as clients and colleagues, I have nowhere near the same level of very specific and recurring observations/complaints. This is definitely something peculiar to India and Indians.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @JohnnyWalker123, @Grahamsno(G64)

    , @Anatoly Karlin
    @Ludwig

    That said, one thing I find rather odds about (Indian) Indians is the inordinate pride they seem to take in the achievements of their diaspora. This is not something you see amongst, say, the Chinese.

    India would be better off if those elite Indians had stayed in India.

    Replies: @Shortsword

    , @Beckow
    @Ludwig

    You lost me at "pristine" and "paranoia". Quite a jump there, isn't it? Maybe you a South Asian, or family, or the usual Anglo twit with nostalgia for Raj. In any case, you went all over the map with bizarre projections that on their face are nonsensical. I will not repeat what others here responded to you - they said it better - but you lost the argument.

    Having an Indian cheering section betrays what this is all about - they know they are on thin ice. There is no rational reason why millions of Indians should be allowed to migrate to the West, or to E Europe. They are not European in any sense of that word, they are not needed, and they do work that locals could do. Pure parasitic migration combined with cheap business types wanting to cut costs.

    Small points:
    - I was generous with my 1.5 billion that you found offensive; there are actually close to 2 billion South Asians, there is no difference with Bangladeshis or Pakistanis.
    - My concern has nothing to with Russia. I am talking about CE Europe - part of EU - where the surplus Indians (and others) that West foolishly imported could eventually end up. We don't want them and have no desire to deal with their obsessive victim mentality and accusations of "racism". If you want them in Paris or London, your choice.

    Maybe you just like chicken tikka massala (I do too), but try to read what others say before attacking them mindlessly.

  85. @Ludwig
    @Beckow

    Since you chose to engage:


    A lot of what you wrote is a projection of what you think others may think, not really what they wrote. The talk of bubbles and 19th century is a classical straw-man argument: because one doesn’t want his society overrun by tens of millions migrants from the Third World doesn’t at all mean that they want to restore 1888 or have normal inter-cultural relations with normal people from different cultures – in numbers that have always existed and always will.
     
    You seem paranoid about being whatever pristine society you think exists in your own mind, being “overrun” by the “Third world”.

    Firstly, you fit the archetype of bubble ignorance painting a broad brush over what you claim as the “Third world” which is essentially based on current development standards and which has changed through history. For you the horror of anyone from the Third World is dark, diseased migrants carrying the plague apparently (as per a highly ignorant and revealing post where your response to my talking of highly educated Indian Americans was “But India has the plague” which was not only untrue, but even if it were true is a complete non sequitur.)

    Secondly, lumping together all the myriad nationalities across the “Third World” and the different types of migrants into one type is further proof of your absolute inability to be rational and knowledgeable outside your narrow field of expertise (and even narrower mindset).

    Take India: To travel out from India requires mostly planes unlike African or Middle Eastern refugees into Europe, or Latin American refugees into the US who migrated across land en mass.

    The bulk of Indian Americans migrated legally across a few different channels:

    A) highly educated ones that come for studies and remain and/or executives at top positions (one can include other fields like actors/sports stars or the visa category for “highly accomplished immigrants” [paraphrasing] which speeds up the immigration process. Sundar Pichai and Satya Nadella are examples of the former. The bulk of top executives across the US have similar profiles as are many scientists, doctors and so on. (Yes, like with every situation there are grifters, fakes etc but on the whole like the hordes of immigrants before them including many European ones over the centuries, they have allowed the US to keep a technological and economic edge.). These types are mostly from higher castes in India who have had the opportunity and culture of seeking higher education. They advance through sheer merit and hard work and are represented in the group Karlin mentions above.

    B) consultants who come on temporary visas for work and find permanent work visas. These are criticized for depressing wages of existing Americans. Incidentally from my observation very few of these rise to the top of the food chain since by the time they get their permanent residency they are too old to advance beyond a certain level. Meanwhile US companies like these workers since they help profits and keep them competitive.

    C) small business owners: they are the mom and pop shops, the bodegas, the motels etc. Many of these come from a few locations in India like the state of Gujarat which is known for hard working business minded, closely knit communities.

    D) marriages/chain migration: application for immediate family members. Indians - like many Asians - have a culture of taking care of their parents and even those who come are taken care of by the family and not thrown in the streets to be taken care of the welfare state. Meanwhile chain migration of siblings etc has slowed since the visa process for this category takes decades and as India’s economic opportunities have improved, less desire to make the trip.

    E) lottery/political refugees: this is relatively rare. There are some cases of people claiming to flee persecution (eg Sikhs) but they are relatively minor. Lottery for Indians I believe is non-existent (along with other nationalities who have significant presence in the US).

    What you think of hordes of Indians, those poor masses you see from your bubble, mostly make it to the Gulf countries of at all where they work as indentured labor.

    Incidentally the Gulf countries also take in highly educated Indians and nationalities from everywhere. Dubai for example realized that it cannot rely on an oil economy and in addition to poor labor, has invested in attracting technical talent from everywhere. So in Dubai, a lot of hotel executives, financiers, doctors I’ve encountered are Indians (and some Pakistani esp doctors); I also know of at least one Indian American AI expert who was offered a crazy salary to put together a team in Abu Dhabi to advance AI technologies. As evidenced by its recent patch up with Israel, the Gulf countries - while maintaining the primacy of their monarchies and Arab culture - are casting a wide net to attract too talent regardless of origin (I’ve met Nigerian financiers in Dubai as well for example.)


    There are intelligent Indians and India has 400+ languages: but that is irrelevant to the point that large numbers of Indians who are neither particularly intelligent nor needed are migrating to the West. There are 1.5 billion of them, how many do you want to come? And why should young professionals be displaced by them? Because you think they are “smarter”, or because Bill Gates likes them because they are cheaper? That Steve Ballmer is an idiot changes nothing, there are idiots of all nationalities. The Indian guy running Citi a few years back was not exactly a genius.

    Using a few names – as you do – is also completely irrelevant. This is about large numbers, not about a few over-achievers. When you go there you are again simply trying to avoid a discussion because you sense that you would lose the argument.

     

    You are contradicting yourself and in your blind bigorty don’t even realize it. India has 1.4 billion people and say even 1% are intelligent/over achievers as opposed to say 10% of Russians, that’s about the same number of intelligent people, say 14 million people. If you look at the distribution of Indian Americans in the US, these overachievers are the ones who are overwhelmingly represented there. Indian Americans are - on average - objectively at the top end of wealth, academic achievement etc. One example is the paper that Karlin cites in his thread.

    This is why talking of the 1.4 billion people is irrelevant when we are talking about a subset of them who are not necessarily representative of the larger group. For example, by causal observation in NY (or in Dubai or many places in Europe for that matter), Slavic women seem over represented in one particular profession. This does not necessarily mean that this is the general distribution back in Russia/Ukraine/Belarus.

    So clearly - like most immigrants - these Indians are not representative of their countries. So talking about the 1.4 billion Indians - as if they are one undifferentiated mass - is not just ignorant but irrelevant. It’s talking about what kind of talent you want whether it is from Germany, India or New Guinea.

    The fundamental problem you have is that while you can expound in some detail about different East European nationalities and their complex histories, once you see an “Indian” your pre-frontal cortex shuts down and your limbic brain takes over (like implying that Satya Nadella became CEO of Microsoft because of “cheap labor”). You seem to conflate Indians in US or even Europe with the desperate hordes escaping poverty across land borders. They are not.


    You argue that if one criticises others for self-serving or other behaviors, he should in turn not show a preference for his own group. Ideally. But in a world we live in that is nonsense. Trying to be objective is intellectually nice, but in practise it doesn’t work. It is another technique to disempower smarter people by appealing to their sense of fair-play. For me it is enough that we on our side are ‘fairer”, not perfect by any standard, but fairer. We listen to their arguments, they don’t listen to ours. There is no point in dying on that hill, nobody would remember it.
     
    I am criticizing those like you who accuse Indians specifically of being groupist - and falsely claiming their achievement in the US is primally a result of this - of taking a basic human trait and making it specifically about Indians. I have no problem with say Russians hanging out with other Russians, Indians with a Indians (and sub groupings therein), Chinese with Chinese, Italian Americans with Italian Americans etc. We gravitate towards people with whom we have shared culture/passions. I enjoy this group because even when I disagree with many points, there is usually some effort towards rational, intellectual discussion which I have a passion for and learn from. (There is also a lot of irrational discussion which I mostly ignore except in cases like this).

    But let me alleviate your concern in one regard at least when it comes to Russia. As far as I can tell, the opinion of Russia from the elites to the general public in India, Indonesia etc is mostly formed by Western opinion which means they think Russia is a cold, authoritarian place where Putin and the KGB pretty much tell you what to do, the men are either criminals or drunk on vodka and the women - well they are known for that profession which is available in most countries outside Russia anyways. So no one is clamoring to get into Russia. Poor migrants look to the Gulf countries to repatriate money; educated ones either go West or increasingly remain at home to join thriving economies. (Indonesia is 7th by PPP).

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @DNS, @Pumblechook, @Anatoly Karlin, @Beckow

    They advance through sheer merit and hard work and are represented in the group Karlin mentions above.

    Oh really.

    What I found generally entertaining about the entire, clearly emotionally driven rant was their prominence is “purely” because of their evident genius, as if intelligence necessarily excluded political capability, nepotism or outright corruption.

    Why would it? People can be plenty intelligent and at the same time and token, also be very aware that if they staff the office with friendly colleagues, they can advance much further. So much more so when said colleagues are also from India, owe their present in a first-world country to a specific individual, and group together cohesively against others.

    That kind of behavior is both intelligent and effective, especially when it can be coupled with capable workers. Its also seen by many as being quite nepotistic and wrong, and ultimately is the same kind of corruption that plagues the Indian government and their corporations, exported elsewhere.

    Russia is a cold, authoritarian place where Putin and the KGB pretty much tell you what to do, the men are either criminals or drunk on vodka and the women – well they are known for that profession which is available in most countries outside Russia anyways. So no one is clamoring to get into Russia.

    Speaking of psychopathic projection, it took only a mild level of offense for you to pretty much call Russians alcoholic criminals and whores. Excellent demonstration, well done. Its a good example of the kind of verbal aggression that serves Indians well.

    • Agree: Bashibuzuk
    • LOL: Jatt Aryaa
    • Replies: @Thulean Friend
    @Daniel Chieh

    Ludwig was merely stating facts. Elites from countries like India view Russia through a Western lens. This lens may distort the view of Russia, but it doesn't make his statement any less true. There are very few Indians in Russia and Russian culture's impact in India is basically non-existent.

    Even during the Cold War, when Russia and India were closest, it was only really Russian literature that had any impact. Even so, this impact was limited to a tiny number. Not just the top 1% but also specifically the more humanistic top 1%. More so women than men, since women tend to read fiction in greater proportion than men. Most Indian elites tend to focus on STEM professions or finance/economics, so Russia during those years had little appeal. Interestingly, Indian pop culture had a bigger impact (Bollywood) in Russia than vice versa. After the Cold War, even this largely faded. Hollywood was no longer taboo in Russia and Indian elite migration to the West took off in earnest in the 1990s, thorugh the IT boom, which created important cultural links to elites back home.

    I don't see how Russia can turn this around. It's too poor to be interesting, it's cultural output is mediocre and to top it off there are still persistent issues regarding racism.

  86. @EldnahYm
    @Long term lurker

    Agreed. Actually it was this passage: "Fighting is rare and, far from being a manly exchange of blows, is waged girl-wise, with scratching and hair-pulling" that most stood out to me as being based upon Cantonese people.

    A general rule of thumb for China is that the more west you go(also true of border regions), the more lawless and crazy it is, the more north you go, you get people who are taller and more extroverted, nationalistic, and heavy drinkers. In the southeast, you get shorter, more business-oriented people who know how to bend every single rule. This is a crude generalization with many exceptions(people from Hunan for example are quite nationalistic), but as a crude stereotype it works.

    Most people's stereotypes about Chinese are based on their observations about people from Guangdong/Hong Kong and Fujian. So they sometimes have views about the Chinese which are exaggerated.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

    I think ultimately the lower effective T is consistent with findings such as ethnic differences in testicle weight(33% lower in East Asians) and DHT ratio(which is has the strongest virilizing effect on males):

    However, the DHT:testosterone ratio was highest in African-Americans, intermediate in whites, and lowest in Asian-Americans, corresponding to the respective incidence rates in these groups and providing indirect evidence for ethnic differences in 5alpha-reductase enzyme activity.

    As with the other findings(consistently higher Hispanic testicle weight vs Caucasian), it probably is genetic rather than environmental factors.

    • Agree: Thulean Friend
    • Replies: @Jatt Aryaa
    @Daniel Chieh

    Did you really go from insulting Indians to weighing balls?

    Replies: @Thulean Friend, @Daniel Chieh

  87. @Daniel Chieh
    @EldnahYm

    I think ultimately the lower effective T is consistent with findings such as ethnic differences in testicle weight(33% lower in East Asians) and DHT ratio(which is has the strongest virilizing effect on males):


    However, the DHT:testosterone ratio was highest in African-Americans, intermediate in whites, and lowest in Asian-Americans, corresponding to the respective incidence rates in these groups and providing indirect evidence for ethnic differences in 5alpha-reductase enzyme activity.
     
    As with the other findings(consistently higher Hispanic testicle weight vs Caucasian), it probably is genetic rather than environmental factors.

    Replies: @Jatt Aryaa

    Did you really go from insulting Indians to weighing balls?

    • Replies: @Thulean Friend
    @Jatt Aryaa

    Mr Chieh is an intellectually versatile man. It's part of his appeal.

    , @Daniel Chieh
    @Jatt Aryaa

    Well, on that note, Indians possibly have the lowest level of testosterone in a major ethnic population, which would also support verbal strength, cognitive emphasizing styles and social manipulation as methods of confrontation and advancement. E.g.

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24206051/


    Our data suggest that men from the Indian subcontinent are smaller, manifest lower levels of circulating free testosterone, lower mean PSA levels and lean body mass, but are comparable to white Caucasian men in terms of SHBG, estradiol, levels of visceral fat and CAG repeat length. These data suggest that Indian men manifest a lower level of virilization compared to white Caucasian males and that this might be due to lower mean circulating testosterone levels rather than higher AR CAG repeat length or SHBG.
     
    This would be consistent with findings that most condoms do not fit safely on Indian men:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6161691.stm

    A survey of more than 1,000 men in India has concluded that condoms made according to international sizes are too large for a majority of Indian men.

    The study found that more than half of the men measured had penises that were shorter than international standards for condoms.
     
    And would also coincide with Karlin's note on the general physical weakness of South Asian men, at least for grip strength.

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/strength/
    https://www.unz.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/physical-strength-regions.png


    This is more interesting, and really quite striking. It would appear that the weakest men (South Asians) do not have a stronger hand grip than the strongest women (Europeans).
     

    Replies: @sher singh

  88. @128
    How do the pro-China altrighters here feel about China shilling for George Floyd and BLM?

    Replies: @Long term lurker, @Pericles, @songbird, @Anatoly Karlin

    Presumably it feels like reaching over and twisting the knife after the idiot bully has stabbed himself. Is there a 36 strategy for this?

  89. @Daniel Chieh
    @Ludwig


    They advance through sheer merit and hard work and are represented in the group Karlin mentions above.
     
    Oh really.

    What I found generally entertaining about the entire, clearly emotionally driven rant was their prominence is "purely" because of their evident genius, as if intelligence necessarily excluded political capability, nepotism or outright corruption.

    Why would it? People can be plenty intelligent and at the same time and token, also be very aware that if they staff the office with friendly colleagues, they can advance much further. So much more so when said colleagues are also from India, owe their present in a first-world country to a specific individual, and group together cohesively against others.

    That kind of behavior is both intelligent and effective, especially when it can be coupled with capable workers. Its also seen by many as being quite nepotistic and wrong, and ultimately is the same kind of corruption that plagues the Indian government and their corporations, exported elsewhere.

    Russia is a cold, authoritarian place where Putin and the KGB pretty much tell you what to do, the men are either criminals or drunk on vodka and the women – well they are known for that profession which is available in most countries outside Russia anyways. So no one is clamoring to get into Russia.
     
    Speaking of psychopathic projection, it took only a mild level of offense for you to pretty much call Russians alcoholic criminals and whores. Excellent demonstration, well done. Its a good example of the kind of verbal aggression that serves Indians well.

    Replies: @Thulean Friend

    Ludwig was merely stating facts. Elites from countries like India view Russia through a Western lens. This lens may distort the view of Russia, but it doesn’t make his statement any less true. There are very few Indians in Russia and Russian culture’s impact in India is basically non-existent.

    Even during the Cold War, when Russia and India were closest, it was only really Russian literature that had any impact. Even so, this impact was limited to a tiny number. Not just the top 1% but also specifically the more humanistic top 1%. More so women than men, since women tend to read fiction in greater proportion than men. Most Indian elites tend to focus on STEM professions or finance/economics, so Russia during those years had little appeal. Interestingly, Indian pop culture had a bigger impact (Bollywood) in Russia than vice versa. After the Cold War, even this largely faded. Hollywood was no longer taboo in Russia and Indian elite migration to the West took off in earnest in the 1990s, thorugh the IT boom, which created important cultural links to elites back home.

    I don’t see how Russia can turn this around. It’s too poor to be interesting, it’s cultural output is mediocre and to top it off there are still persistent issues regarding racism.

  90. @Jatt Aryaa
    @Daniel Chieh

    Did you really go from insulting Indians to weighing balls?

    Replies: @Thulean Friend, @Daniel Chieh

    Mr Chieh is an intellectually versatile man. It’s part of his appeal.

    • Agree: Anatoly Karlin
    • Thanks: Daniel Chieh
  91. @Ludwig
    @Beckow

    Since you chose to engage:


    A lot of what you wrote is a projection of what you think others may think, not really what they wrote. The talk of bubbles and 19th century is a classical straw-man argument: because one doesn’t want his society overrun by tens of millions migrants from the Third World doesn’t at all mean that they want to restore 1888 or have normal inter-cultural relations with normal people from different cultures – in numbers that have always existed and always will.
     
    You seem paranoid about being whatever pristine society you think exists in your own mind, being “overrun” by the “Third world”.

    Firstly, you fit the archetype of bubble ignorance painting a broad brush over what you claim as the “Third world” which is essentially based on current development standards and which has changed through history. For you the horror of anyone from the Third World is dark, diseased migrants carrying the plague apparently (as per a highly ignorant and revealing post where your response to my talking of highly educated Indian Americans was “But India has the plague” which was not only untrue, but even if it were true is a complete non sequitur.)

    Secondly, lumping together all the myriad nationalities across the “Third World” and the different types of migrants into one type is further proof of your absolute inability to be rational and knowledgeable outside your narrow field of expertise (and even narrower mindset).

    Take India: To travel out from India requires mostly planes unlike African or Middle Eastern refugees into Europe, or Latin American refugees into the US who migrated across land en mass.

    The bulk of Indian Americans migrated legally across a few different channels:

    A) highly educated ones that come for studies and remain and/or executives at top positions (one can include other fields like actors/sports stars or the visa category for “highly accomplished immigrants” [paraphrasing] which speeds up the immigration process. Sundar Pichai and Satya Nadella are examples of the former. The bulk of top executives across the US have similar profiles as are many scientists, doctors and so on. (Yes, like with every situation there are grifters, fakes etc but on the whole like the hordes of immigrants before them including many European ones over the centuries, they have allowed the US to keep a technological and economic edge.). These types are mostly from higher castes in India who have had the opportunity and culture of seeking higher education. They advance through sheer merit and hard work and are represented in the group Karlin mentions above.

    B) consultants who come on temporary visas for work and find permanent work visas. These are criticized for depressing wages of existing Americans. Incidentally from my observation very few of these rise to the top of the food chain since by the time they get their permanent residency they are too old to advance beyond a certain level. Meanwhile US companies like these workers since they help profits and keep them competitive.

    C) small business owners: they are the mom and pop shops, the bodegas, the motels etc. Many of these come from a few locations in India like the state of Gujarat which is known for hard working business minded, closely knit communities.

    D) marriages/chain migration: application for immediate family members. Indians - like many Asians - have a culture of taking care of their parents and even those who come are taken care of by the family and not thrown in the streets to be taken care of the welfare state. Meanwhile chain migration of siblings etc has slowed since the visa process for this category takes decades and as India’s economic opportunities have improved, less desire to make the trip.

    E) lottery/political refugees: this is relatively rare. There are some cases of people claiming to flee persecution (eg Sikhs) but they are relatively minor. Lottery for Indians I believe is non-existent (along with other nationalities who have significant presence in the US).

    What you think of hordes of Indians, those poor masses you see from your bubble, mostly make it to the Gulf countries of at all where they work as indentured labor.

    Incidentally the Gulf countries also take in highly educated Indians and nationalities from everywhere. Dubai for example realized that it cannot rely on an oil economy and in addition to poor labor, has invested in attracting technical talent from everywhere. So in Dubai, a lot of hotel executives, financiers, doctors I’ve encountered are Indians (and some Pakistani esp doctors); I also know of at least one Indian American AI expert who was offered a crazy salary to put together a team in Abu Dhabi to advance AI technologies. As evidenced by its recent patch up with Israel, the Gulf countries - while maintaining the primacy of their monarchies and Arab culture - are casting a wide net to attract too talent regardless of origin (I’ve met Nigerian financiers in Dubai as well for example.)


    There are intelligent Indians and India has 400+ languages: but that is irrelevant to the point that large numbers of Indians who are neither particularly intelligent nor needed are migrating to the West. There are 1.5 billion of them, how many do you want to come? And why should young professionals be displaced by them? Because you think they are “smarter”, or because Bill Gates likes them because they are cheaper? That Steve Ballmer is an idiot changes nothing, there are idiots of all nationalities. The Indian guy running Citi a few years back was not exactly a genius.

    Using a few names – as you do – is also completely irrelevant. This is about large numbers, not about a few over-achievers. When you go there you are again simply trying to avoid a discussion because you sense that you would lose the argument.

     

    You are contradicting yourself and in your blind bigorty don’t even realize it. India has 1.4 billion people and say even 1% are intelligent/over achievers as opposed to say 10% of Russians, that’s about the same number of intelligent people, say 14 million people. If you look at the distribution of Indian Americans in the US, these overachievers are the ones who are overwhelmingly represented there. Indian Americans are - on average - objectively at the top end of wealth, academic achievement etc. One example is the paper that Karlin cites in his thread.

    This is why talking of the 1.4 billion people is irrelevant when we are talking about a subset of them who are not necessarily representative of the larger group. For example, by causal observation in NY (or in Dubai or many places in Europe for that matter), Slavic women seem over represented in one particular profession. This does not necessarily mean that this is the general distribution back in Russia/Ukraine/Belarus.

    So clearly - like most immigrants - these Indians are not representative of their countries. So talking about the 1.4 billion Indians - as if they are one undifferentiated mass - is not just ignorant but irrelevant. It’s talking about what kind of talent you want whether it is from Germany, India or New Guinea.

    The fundamental problem you have is that while you can expound in some detail about different East European nationalities and their complex histories, once you see an “Indian” your pre-frontal cortex shuts down and your limbic brain takes over (like implying that Satya Nadella became CEO of Microsoft because of “cheap labor”). You seem to conflate Indians in US or even Europe with the desperate hordes escaping poverty across land borders. They are not.


    You argue that if one criticises others for self-serving or other behaviors, he should in turn not show a preference for his own group. Ideally. But in a world we live in that is nonsense. Trying to be objective is intellectually nice, but in practise it doesn’t work. It is another technique to disempower smarter people by appealing to their sense of fair-play. For me it is enough that we on our side are ‘fairer”, not perfect by any standard, but fairer. We listen to their arguments, they don’t listen to ours. There is no point in dying on that hill, nobody would remember it.
     
    I am criticizing those like you who accuse Indians specifically of being groupist - and falsely claiming their achievement in the US is primally a result of this - of taking a basic human trait and making it specifically about Indians. I have no problem with say Russians hanging out with other Russians, Indians with a Indians (and sub groupings therein), Chinese with Chinese, Italian Americans with Italian Americans etc. We gravitate towards people with whom we have shared culture/passions. I enjoy this group because even when I disagree with many points, there is usually some effort towards rational, intellectual discussion which I have a passion for and learn from. (There is also a lot of irrational discussion which I mostly ignore except in cases like this).

    But let me alleviate your concern in one regard at least when it comes to Russia. As far as I can tell, the opinion of Russia from the elites to the general public in India, Indonesia etc is mostly formed by Western opinion which means they think Russia is a cold, authoritarian place where Putin and the KGB pretty much tell you what to do, the men are either criminals or drunk on vodka and the women - well they are known for that profession which is available in most countries outside Russia anyways. So no one is clamoring to get into Russia. Poor migrants look to the Gulf countries to repatriate money; educated ones either go West or increasingly remain at home to join thriving economies. (Indonesia is 7th by PPP).

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @DNS, @Pumblechook, @Anatoly Karlin, @Beckow

    Beckow has a particular obsession with Indian sub-continentals and the demographic threat they post to Western Civilisation and its Peoples, perhaps informed by his experience with Gypsies – that other notable Indian diaspora population – in his native Slovakia. Although, he wouldn’t be the first to make this observation.

    Lord Archer: Indians are the ‘new Jews’ and are taking over Britain

    The desire to permanently relocate from South Asia is fairly low according to this Gallup poll/survey, however 8% of 1.5 billion+ is still a lot, so he does have a point that migration from the Indian sub-continent will greatly change the ethnic character of Western nations in the near future.

    [MORE]

    • Replies: @AP
    @DNS


    Beckow has a particular obsession with Indian sub-continentals and the demographic threat they post to Western Civilisation and its Peoples, perhaps informed by his experience with Gypsies – that other notable Indian diaspora population – in his native Slovakia
     
    Yes. He seems to work in the tech industry, perhaps for a Western company. It must be particularly humiliating for him if he has to work for an Indian manager, taking orders from a “gypsy.” Especially if that “gypsy” behaves arrogantly towards those under him, as anecdotally Indians seem to be prone to do.
  92. @Daniel Chieh
    @Thulean Friend

    It is surely merely coincidence that so many posters here who have worked with Indians have had the same experiences of nepotism with them.

    Replies: @Grahamsno(G64), @AP

    What about the post by Blinky Bill on Indians in Singapore, Singapore one of the best run states in the world and is about as close as you can get to a meritocracy, a Singaporean Chinese business man told me that they run the whole state like a corporation, he said since Singapore didn’t have any resources they carefully cultivated human resources, that the government spots outstanding talent very early on and cultivates it for public service and that the government picks the cream of the crop. So the visible overrepresentation of Indians in Singaporean public life couldn’t have come through nepotism, they were picked by the Singaporean bureaucracy which puts such a high premium on talent.

    Basically Indians do well everywhere except in India where in some states they reach African levels of dysfunction.

    • Agree: sher singh
  93. @EldnahYm
    @Long term lurker

    Agreed. Actually it was this passage: "Fighting is rare and, far from being a manly exchange of blows, is waged girl-wise, with scratching and hair-pulling" that most stood out to me as being based upon Cantonese people.

    A general rule of thumb for China is that the more west you go(also true of border regions), the more lawless and crazy it is, the more north you go, you get people who are taller and more extroverted, nationalistic, and heavy drinkers. In the southeast, you get shorter, more business-oriented people who know how to bend every single rule. This is a crude generalization with many exceptions(people from Hunan for example are quite nationalistic), but as a crude stereotype it works.

    Most people's stereotypes about Chinese are based on their observations about people from Guangdong/Hong Kong and Fujian. So they sometimes have views about the Chinese which are exaggerated.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

    Appearances can be deceiving. Currently the fastest non-black in 100m is a Canto:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Su_Bingtian

    Su’s best time in 100m is 9.91, in comparison, fastest white guy is Lemaitre at 9.92

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christophe_Lemaitre

    Here he is next to Usain Bolt

    • Thanks: EldnahYm
  94. An additional factor worth mentioning.

    Historically a far larger proportion of Indian Institutes of Technology graduates, IIT Delhi, IIT Bombay, IIT Madras have gone to the United States compared to Tsinghua and Beida (Peking) University graduates. Just check out what their Alumni have achieved.


    I think it’s fair to say that the United States has captured a far larger proportion of the Indian Elites than Chinese ones.

    I think this is changing, for India’s sake I hope it is.

  95. I would go by this map. Historically every dynasty founder have come from the North, with only exception being Hongwu.

    Modern gunpowder age have eroded the advantage of calvary and the Northerners. Chiang comes from Lower Yangzi, and led his Northern Expedition from Guangdong. His fiercest regional troops come Lingnan, the Guangxi-clique.

    On the Commie side, Mao, Deng, and almost every OG PLA general, i.e. Lin Biao, Peng Dehuai come from Upper and Middle Yangzi.

    Xi is the first Northerner CCP leader.

    • Replies: @Blinky Bill
    @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms


    On the Commie side, Mao, Deng, and almost every OG PLA general, i.e. Lin Biao, Peng Dehuai come from Upper and Middle Yangzi.
     
    Xinxian County Henan Province is known as “The Cradle of CPC Generals”, such as Xu Shiyou, Li Desheng, Zheng Weishan, Gao Houliang and also 50 generals ranked Army Corps Commander or above, such as Wu Huanxian, Gao Jingting, Zhang Tixue, Zhang Zhiyin and so on.

    I guess you could classify it as Middle Yangtze, like in the map you provided. Henan is always classified as North China, but Xinxian County is just south of the Qinling–Huaihe Line and they also speak Lower Yangtze Mandarin (Jiang–Huai Mandarin) there! 😂😂😂😂

    , @Blinky Bill
    @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms


    Xi is the first Northerner CCP leader.
     
    They might not be "leaders", but they were both leader of the Central Committee of the Chinese Communist Party and from the North.

    😂😂😂😂


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hua_Guofeng

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhao_Ziyang

  96. AP says:
    @DNS
    @Ludwig

    Beckow has a particular obsession with Indian sub-continentals and the demographic threat they post to Western Civilisation and its Peoples, perhaps informed by his experience with Gypsies - that other notable Indian diaspora population - in his native Slovakia. Although, he wouldn't be the first to make this observation.

    Lord Archer: Indians are the 'new Jews' and are taking over Britain

    The desire to permanently relocate from South Asia is fairly low according to this Gallup poll/survey, however 8% of 1.5 billion+ is still a lot, so he does have a point that migration from the Indian sub-continent will greatly change the ethnic character of Western nations in the near future.

    https://content.gallup.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Production/Cms/POLL/42jcbvgfbuaf9fca-retea.gif

    Replies: @AP

    Beckow has a particular obsession with Indian sub-continentals and the demographic threat they post to Western Civilisation and its Peoples, perhaps informed by his experience with Gypsies – that other notable Indian diaspora population – in his native Slovakia

    Yes. He seems to work in the tech industry, perhaps for a Western company. It must be particularly humiliating for him if he has to work for an Indian manager, taking orders from a “gypsy.” Especially if that “gypsy” behaves arrogantly towards those under him, as anecdotally Indians seem to be prone to do.

  97. @Daniel Chieh
    @Thulean Friend

    It is surely merely coincidence that so many posters here who have worked with Indians have had the same experiences of nepotism with them.

    Replies: @Grahamsno(G64), @AP

    I’m not in Tech but I have also heard this from those I know who are.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    @AP

    I have the most epic stories of such. I'm in awe, sometimes, really. They do use their verbal intellect well.


    This year, 562 spellers competed in the Scripps National Spelling Bee, and after a grueling 20 rounds, the eight left at the end were named co-champions.

    Just a cursory scan across their faces is an insight into a steely culture of excellence that’s been dominating American spelling contests. Seven of the eight winners this year are of Indian descent.
     

    Well for themselves, anyway. Self-deception is after all the key to chupatz, I've always thought.

    https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/living-a-lie-we-deceive-ourselves-to-better-deceive-others/


    In 1976, in the foreword to Richard Dawkins’s The Selfish Gene, the biologist Robert Trivers floated a novel explanation for such self-serving biases: We dupe ourselves in order to deceive others, creating social advantage. Now after four decades Trivers and his colleagues have published the first research supporting his idea.
     

    Replies: @JohnnyWalker123

  98. @Ludwig
    @Beckow

    Since you chose to engage:


    A lot of what you wrote is a projection of what you think others may think, not really what they wrote. The talk of bubbles and 19th century is a classical straw-man argument: because one doesn’t want his society overrun by tens of millions migrants from the Third World doesn’t at all mean that they want to restore 1888 or have normal inter-cultural relations with normal people from different cultures – in numbers that have always existed and always will.
     
    You seem paranoid about being whatever pristine society you think exists in your own mind, being “overrun” by the “Third world”.

    Firstly, you fit the archetype of bubble ignorance painting a broad brush over what you claim as the “Third world” which is essentially based on current development standards and which has changed through history. For you the horror of anyone from the Third World is dark, diseased migrants carrying the plague apparently (as per a highly ignorant and revealing post where your response to my talking of highly educated Indian Americans was “But India has the plague” which was not only untrue, but even if it were true is a complete non sequitur.)

    Secondly, lumping together all the myriad nationalities across the “Third World” and the different types of migrants into one type is further proof of your absolute inability to be rational and knowledgeable outside your narrow field of expertise (and even narrower mindset).

    Take India: To travel out from India requires mostly planes unlike African or Middle Eastern refugees into Europe, or Latin American refugees into the US who migrated across land en mass.

    The bulk of Indian Americans migrated legally across a few different channels:

    A) highly educated ones that come for studies and remain and/or executives at top positions (one can include other fields like actors/sports stars or the visa category for “highly accomplished immigrants” [paraphrasing] which speeds up the immigration process. Sundar Pichai and Satya Nadella are examples of the former. The bulk of top executives across the US have similar profiles as are many scientists, doctors and so on. (Yes, like with every situation there are grifters, fakes etc but on the whole like the hordes of immigrants before them including many European ones over the centuries, they have allowed the US to keep a technological and economic edge.). These types are mostly from higher castes in India who have had the opportunity and culture of seeking higher education. They advance through sheer merit and hard work and are represented in the group Karlin mentions above.

    B) consultants who come on temporary visas for work and find permanent work visas. These are criticized for depressing wages of existing Americans. Incidentally from my observation very few of these rise to the top of the food chain since by the time they get their permanent residency they are too old to advance beyond a certain level. Meanwhile US companies like these workers since they help profits and keep them competitive.

    C) small business owners: they are the mom and pop shops, the bodegas, the motels etc. Many of these come from a few locations in India like the state of Gujarat which is known for hard working business minded, closely knit communities.

    D) marriages/chain migration: application for immediate family members. Indians - like many Asians - have a culture of taking care of their parents and even those who come are taken care of by the family and not thrown in the streets to be taken care of the welfare state. Meanwhile chain migration of siblings etc has slowed since the visa process for this category takes decades and as India’s economic opportunities have improved, less desire to make the trip.

    E) lottery/political refugees: this is relatively rare. There are some cases of people claiming to flee persecution (eg Sikhs) but they are relatively minor. Lottery for Indians I believe is non-existent (along with other nationalities who have significant presence in the US).

    What you think of hordes of Indians, those poor masses you see from your bubble, mostly make it to the Gulf countries of at all where they work as indentured labor.

    Incidentally the Gulf countries also take in highly educated Indians and nationalities from everywhere. Dubai for example realized that it cannot rely on an oil economy and in addition to poor labor, has invested in attracting technical talent from everywhere. So in Dubai, a lot of hotel executives, financiers, doctors I’ve encountered are Indians (and some Pakistani esp doctors); I also know of at least one Indian American AI expert who was offered a crazy salary to put together a team in Abu Dhabi to advance AI technologies. As evidenced by its recent patch up with Israel, the Gulf countries - while maintaining the primacy of their monarchies and Arab culture - are casting a wide net to attract too talent regardless of origin (I’ve met Nigerian financiers in Dubai as well for example.)


    There are intelligent Indians and India has 400+ languages: but that is irrelevant to the point that large numbers of Indians who are neither particularly intelligent nor needed are migrating to the West. There are 1.5 billion of them, how many do you want to come? And why should young professionals be displaced by them? Because you think they are “smarter”, or because Bill Gates likes them because they are cheaper? That Steve Ballmer is an idiot changes nothing, there are idiots of all nationalities. The Indian guy running Citi a few years back was not exactly a genius.

    Using a few names – as you do – is also completely irrelevant. This is about large numbers, not about a few over-achievers. When you go there you are again simply trying to avoid a discussion because you sense that you would lose the argument.

     

    You are contradicting yourself and in your blind bigorty don’t even realize it. India has 1.4 billion people and say even 1% are intelligent/over achievers as opposed to say 10% of Russians, that’s about the same number of intelligent people, say 14 million people. If you look at the distribution of Indian Americans in the US, these overachievers are the ones who are overwhelmingly represented there. Indian Americans are - on average - objectively at the top end of wealth, academic achievement etc. One example is the paper that Karlin cites in his thread.

    This is why talking of the 1.4 billion people is irrelevant when we are talking about a subset of them who are not necessarily representative of the larger group. For example, by causal observation in NY (or in Dubai or many places in Europe for that matter), Slavic women seem over represented in one particular profession. This does not necessarily mean that this is the general distribution back in Russia/Ukraine/Belarus.

    So clearly - like most immigrants - these Indians are not representative of their countries. So talking about the 1.4 billion Indians - as if they are one undifferentiated mass - is not just ignorant but irrelevant. It’s talking about what kind of talent you want whether it is from Germany, India or New Guinea.

    The fundamental problem you have is that while you can expound in some detail about different East European nationalities and their complex histories, once you see an “Indian” your pre-frontal cortex shuts down and your limbic brain takes over (like implying that Satya Nadella became CEO of Microsoft because of “cheap labor”). You seem to conflate Indians in US or even Europe with the desperate hordes escaping poverty across land borders. They are not.


    You argue that if one criticises others for self-serving or other behaviors, he should in turn not show a preference for his own group. Ideally. But in a world we live in that is nonsense. Trying to be objective is intellectually nice, but in practise it doesn’t work. It is another technique to disempower smarter people by appealing to their sense of fair-play. For me it is enough that we on our side are ‘fairer”, not perfect by any standard, but fairer. We listen to their arguments, they don’t listen to ours. There is no point in dying on that hill, nobody would remember it.
     
    I am criticizing those like you who accuse Indians specifically of being groupist - and falsely claiming their achievement in the US is primally a result of this - of taking a basic human trait and making it specifically about Indians. I have no problem with say Russians hanging out with other Russians, Indians with a Indians (and sub groupings therein), Chinese with Chinese, Italian Americans with Italian Americans etc. We gravitate towards people with whom we have shared culture/passions. I enjoy this group because even when I disagree with many points, there is usually some effort towards rational, intellectual discussion which I have a passion for and learn from. (There is also a lot of irrational discussion which I mostly ignore except in cases like this).

    But let me alleviate your concern in one regard at least when it comes to Russia. As far as I can tell, the opinion of Russia from the elites to the general public in India, Indonesia etc is mostly formed by Western opinion which means they think Russia is a cold, authoritarian place where Putin and the KGB pretty much tell you what to do, the men are either criminals or drunk on vodka and the women - well they are known for that profession which is available in most countries outside Russia anyways. So no one is clamoring to get into Russia. Poor migrants look to the Gulf countries to repatriate money; educated ones either go West or increasingly remain at home to join thriving economies. (Indonesia is 7th by PPP).

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @DNS, @Pumblechook, @Anatoly Karlin, @Beckow

    To put it bluntly, but not wanting to be rude, you seem to be reading and writing too much into it – at the high level, there are many people on this forum who are ethnonationalist to some degree. And if it is not already obvious to you, Indians are:

    a) very high in number
    b) across all societal levels, there is a great desire to leave their country behind and settle abroad – and Eastern Europe is definitely now on the menu, in particular the EU parts

    There are, I believe, particular Indian traits/characteristics which ‘trigger’ non-Indians in a way that not all populations manage to do – but this would be irrelevant if it were not for the 1.4 billion population and desire to emigrate. Working in a multinational IT company, I’ve had the chance to interact with many many Indians from many many different backgrounds.

    Goes without saying, at their best I have encountered erudite, kind, intelligent Indians without any weird agendas. But for sure, there is a disproportionate number which tick one or more of the following criteria:

    – nasty tendency to treat inferiors with derision and lick the boots of superiors
    – inferiority complex towards ‘goras’ combined with psycho-sexual fixation with them
    – highly attuned antenna to when they are about to be blamed correctly for doing something wrong, and preparing reasons/justifications as to why others are in fact to blame
    – an arrogance in a small number of high-caste types obviously raised as the centre of the universe…this is not the usual arrogance a westerner might have in mind…though i’m sure lower caste Indians can emphasise with this one
    – one of the worst for me; the pro-BJP types who nonetheless wag fingers about the West being racist and needing to be more multicultural. Particularly to hear that in Europe, it is completely unacceptable
    – bringing in their own network as contractors on projects for juicy day rates. Always found it astounding that there are young professionals on permanent contracts being paid 1/3 of what was paid to foreigners who can’t even speak English and without a loose understanding of IT. Any serious country would ensure that money goes to locals who need to raise a family and build the nation

    Whilst I’ve also worked closely with Japanese, Latin Americans and Romanians as clients and colleagues, I have nowhere near the same level of very specific and recurring observations/complaints. This is definitely something peculiar to India and Indians.

    • Agree: Daniel Chieh, Coconuts, Malla
    • Thanks: Blinky Bill
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    @Pumblechook

    I've had the joy of being in a hiring position with all of the accompanied experiences of fofofofo resume spam combined with chupatz and chain recruitment and the general attitude of chupatz. None of this is universal, but there's enough generalities to make it into a solid trend. And that's one of many such experiences.

    I don't hate the players, though, its the game that's broken. It is, indeed, a kind of psychopathy but I also think that I'm sympathetic ultimately that I think that based from what I've seen, which is nontrivial, that kind of attitude is so common within India that being a kind of political-maximizing status machine that denies any blame is a basic necessity for survival. China took a certain way to cope with Malthusian existence; India took another path to cope with their Malthusian existences. Both have their legeacies: Its just different optimization strategies.


    one of the worst for me; the pro-BJP types who nonetheless wag fingers about the West being racist and needing to be more multicultural. Particularly to hear that in Europe, it is completely unacceptable
     
    An Indian found a way to fire me: he found evidence that I was browsing on Unz, and as this is a hate site under zero tolerance rules, this required my immediate elimination. He promptly replaced me with a co-ethnic, of course.

    He's quite good at playing the game.

    Replies: @Blinky Bill, @Mr. Hack, @sher singh

    , @JohnnyWalker123
    @Pumblechook

    Elaborate on the psychosexual fixation.

    , @Grahamsno(G64)
    @Pumblechook

    Oh boy you're so fixated on us all these pathologies you accuse us of are there in every other ethnicity


    a) very high in number
     
    Go to Mars if you want to avoid us

    inferiority complex towards ‘goras’ combined with psycho-sexual fixation with them
     
    Kowtowing to the powers nobody else does it right and who doesn't want to fuck blondes it's a compliment

    highly attuned antenna to when they are about to be blamed correctly for doing something wrong, and preparing reasons/justifications as to why others are in fact to blame


     

    Such vague observations to condemn a billion plus people

    one of the worst for me; the pro-BJP types who nonetheless wag fingers about the West being racist and needing to be more multicultural. Particularly to hear that in Europe, it is completely unacceptable

     

    Completely agree with you, see we aren't a homogenous ant colony and I am not a Hindu nationalist.

    bringing in their own network as contractors on projects for juicy day rates. Always found it astounding that there are young professionals on permanent contracts being paid 1/3 of what was paid to foreigners who can’t even speak English and without a loose understanding of IT. Any serious country would ensure that money goes to locals who need to raise a family and build the nation


     

    Everybody does that for entry into a lucrative market the Japanese in the 80's used to bid a dollar to build highways in the US.

    See you can shut all this down by having your legislatures banning us like they did with the Chinese exclusion act in the US nearly a century or more ago, as long as migration is legal we'll do it and your particular grouse is with the higher end migration, well your best companies come now hire in India straight from the campus, please stop them hiring us.

    There's nothing extraordinary about Indians dominating the software business in the west, when the internet exploded in the late 90s an army of coders was required and we provided it at low cost and quality like how the Chinese captured manufacturing they were capable of a scale unthinkable and we did the same with software "the scale." As Daniel Chieh pointed out we are not even that good at software but we have the numbers required for the scale, as Stalin said quantity is its own quality and just like you can't escape Chinese manufacturers you can't escape Indian coders who mainly perform back office functions.

    It's just numbers man nothing personal

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh

  99. @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms
    https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Chunyang-He/publication/226386088/figure/fig2/AS:[email protected]/Chinas-macroregional-systems-in-relation-to-provinces-showing-metropolitan-cities.png

    I would go by this map. Historically every dynasty founder have come from the North, with only exception being Hongwu.

    Modern gunpowder age have eroded the advantage of calvary and the Northerners. Chiang comes from Lower Yangzi, and led his Northern Expedition from Guangdong. His fiercest regional troops come Lingnan, the Guangxi-clique.

    On the Commie side, Mao, Deng, and almost every OG PLA general, i.e. Lin Biao, Peng Dehuai come from Upper and Middle Yangzi.

    Xi is the first Northerner CCP leader.

    Replies: @Blinky Bill, @Blinky Bill

    [MORE]

    On the Commie side, Mao, Deng, and almost every OG PLA general, i.e. Lin Biao, Peng Dehuai come from Upper and Middle Yangzi.

    Xinxian County Henan Province is known as “The Cradle of CPC Generals”, such as Xu Shiyou, Li Desheng, Zheng Weishan, Gao Houliang and also 50 generals ranked Army Corps Commander or above, such as Wu Huanxian, Gao Jingting, Zhang Tixue, Zhang Zhiyin and so on.

    I guess you could classify it as Middle Yangtze, like in the map you provided. Henan is always classified as North China, but Xinxian County is just south of the Qinling–Huaihe Line and they also speak Lower Yangtze Mandarin (Jiang–Huai Mandarin) there! 😂😂😂😂

  100. @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms
    @Bill

    The conclusion was:

    Population X and Y has very low rate of homicide tendencies

    Based on an average taken of homicide rates.

    If the distribution of homicide tendencies for both population is

    1. normally distributed
    2. with a similarly small/moderate StDev

    Then I agree that is a fair conclusion.

    For 2 I can allow, but I don’t see how 1 can be assumed.

    IQ and height I can accept are normally distributed (i.e. outliers become very rare at 3 x StDev and above) since
    1. Both traits are ~50% genetically determined, AND
    2. It is been observed that those genes are normally distributed, AND
    3. In modern genetics we have Law of Large Numbers in play

    But the jury is still out on how much homicide tendency is genetically determined. So it could be for instance modeled as Student t distribution, with more outliers. Such as this gorgeous stunner

    https://pic2.zhimg.com/v2-70af120e9e167c11675593078fe23a5c_1440w.jpg?source=172ae18b

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusako_Shigenobu

    Are there any Scandi female terrorist group founder and leader lol?

    Secondly, the homicide stats are taken during peacetime. But in circumstances of say, after months of grueling combat, an obdurate enemy that will not surrender, culture of brutality in military hierarchy towards subordinates, sudden unexpected intake of unarmed POWs and civilians.

    Anyone could chimp out in such a scenario, but Group X might chimp out more than Group Y.

    This is what I mean by jump diffusion, a perfect analogy is Gamestop stock daily returns, 99 times out of 100 will follow normal distribution, but will on rare instances have large spikes of indeterminate size.

    Replies: @Mr. XYZ, @Bill

    I see. Your point is that two populations could have the same mean “homicide tendencies” (whatever that means), but that one population could have higher observed rates if the environment is not currently conducive to homicide and if the higher-observed-rate population has a higher std dev of “homicide tendencies.”

    I think what your example argues for is that “homicide tendencies” is not a thing, though.

    • Replies: @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms
    @Bill

    If you give me a random sample 10,000 Japs or Nords, I can make very good predictions of mean, SD and number of outliers for their IQ and heights.

    For more qualitative traits like „violent tendencies“ or „conformity“ then its much harder to make predictions about outliers. With Nords once in while you get someone like Brevik, with Japs they are are liable to pull this even during peacetime


    On November 25, 1970, Mishima and four members of his militia entered a military base in central Tokyo, took its commandant hostage, and tried to inspire the Japan Self-Defense Forces to rise up and overthrow Japan's 1947 Constitution, which he called "a constitution of defeat".[15][12] When his attempt failed, he committed seppuku.

    Mishima wrote:

    散るをいとふ 世にも人にも さきがけて 散るこそ花と 吹く小夜嵐

    A small night storm blows
    Saying 'falling is the essence of a flower'
    Preceding those who hesitate

     

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yukio_Mishima
  101. @Pumblechook
    @Ludwig

    To put it bluntly, but not wanting to be rude, you seem to be reading and writing too much into it - at the high level, there are many people on this forum who are ethnonationalist to some degree. And if it is not already obvious to you, Indians are:

    a) very high in number
    b) across all societal levels, there is a great desire to leave their country behind and settle abroad - and Eastern Europe is definitely now on the menu, in particular the EU parts


    There are, I believe, particular Indian traits/characteristics which 'trigger' non-Indians in a way that not all populations manage to do - but this would be irrelevant if it were not for the 1.4 billion population and desire to emigrate. Working in a multinational IT company, I've had the chance to interact with many many Indians from many many different backgrounds.

    Goes without saying, at their best I have encountered erudite, kind, intelligent Indians without any weird agendas. But for sure, there is a disproportionate number which tick one or more of the following criteria:

    - nasty tendency to treat inferiors with derision and lick the boots of superiors
    - inferiority complex towards 'goras' combined with psycho-sexual fixation with them
    - highly attuned antenna to when they are about to be blamed correctly for doing something wrong, and preparing reasons/justifications as to why others are in fact to blame
    - an arrogance in a small number of high-caste types obviously raised as the centre of the universe...this is not the usual arrogance a westerner might have in mind...though i'm sure lower caste Indians can emphasise with this one
    - one of the worst for me; the pro-BJP types who nonetheless wag fingers about the West being racist and needing to be more multicultural. Particularly to hear that in Europe, it is completely unacceptable
    - bringing in their own network as contractors on projects for juicy day rates. Always found it astounding that there are young professionals on permanent contracts being paid 1/3 of what was paid to foreigners who can't even speak English and without a loose understanding of IT. Any serious country would ensure that money goes to locals who need to raise a family and build the nation

    Whilst I've also worked closely with Japanese, Latin Americans and Romanians as clients and colleagues, I have nowhere near the same level of very specific and recurring observations/complaints. This is definitely something peculiar to India and Indians.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @JohnnyWalker123, @Grahamsno(G64)

    I’ve had the joy of being in a hiring position with all of the accompanied experiences of fofofofo resume spam combined with chupatz and chain recruitment and the general attitude of chupatz. None of this is universal, but there’s enough generalities to make it into a solid trend. And that’s one of many such experiences.

    I don’t hate the players, though, its the game that’s broken. It is, indeed, a kind of psychopathy but I also think that I’m sympathetic ultimately that I think that based from what I’ve seen, which is nontrivial, that kind of attitude is so common within India that being a kind of political-maximizing status machine that denies any blame is a basic necessity for survival. China took a certain way to cope with Malthusian existence; India took another path to cope with their Malthusian existences. Both have their legeacies: Its just different optimization strategies.

    one of the worst for me; the pro-BJP types who nonetheless wag fingers about the West being racist and needing to be more multicultural. Particularly to hear that in Europe, it is completely unacceptable

    An Indian found a way to fire me: he found evidence that I was browsing on Unz, and as this is a hate site under zero tolerance rules, this required my immediate elimination. He promptly replaced me with a co-ethnic, of course.

    He’s quite good at playing the game.

    • Replies: @Blinky Bill
    @Daniel Chieh

    You should have said you stumbled upon the site from a link on the Southern Poverty Law Center website.

    Where you went for help (after someone left a racist note on your desk). That you found the Anti Asian articles posted on there deeply distressing, to the point of distraction, you had trouble sleeping, eating etc. And that you expected better from your Indian colleague, after all they should understand what you're going through better than anyone else.

    It wouldn't be fair to punish you, the victim, for hate directed at you and that you needed their help and understanding.

    , @Mr. Hack
    @Daniel Chieh


    An Indian found a way to fire me: he found evidence that I was browsing on Unz, and as this is a hate site under zero tolerance rules, this required my immediate elimination.
     
    "Hate site under zero tolerance rules"? Where, if I may ask, did this incidence occur? I'm working back in the office now, and don't want to jeopardize my position. What a strange situation, please tell us more? Thanks!

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    , @sher singh
    @Daniel Chieh

    I don't find much difference between Anglo/Dutch & Hindus.
    Self-serving, deceptive, cowardly
    Gas

    Meds, Arabs & Persians r pussies
    Gas

    Berber & Chinky chicks Hot
    Gas Khokhols rest of Slavs r based, the Balkans is Indo-Iranian

    Afghan/Turan are like White Jatts – claim their women

    Darker skin people like African, Caribbean & Indian are nice but unfuckable
    Gas

    Germanic/Norse need Gas - hard-working robots, with 0 leadership quality (charisma)

    Celtic or Anatolian women can stay if big ass

  102. @128
    How do the pro-China altrighters here feel about China shilling for George Floyd and BLM?

    Replies: @Long term lurker, @Pericles, @songbird, @Anatoly Karlin

    Well, this sort of thing goes back decades. When it was originally developed, it was not obvious that it would cause the West or even America to explode. It was basically throwaway rhetoric – probably fairly useless, except with the most insane radicals.

    In a way, it can be thought of as institutional momentum. By loose analogy, like how Western countries often have very poor statistics for measuring different ethnic groups – when these systems were imagined, nobody envisioned the scale of invasion, and so some European countries have silly categories like “immigrant”, or “immigrant parent.”

    And part of it is reflexive – a response to the rhetoric about Uighurs.

    But I really view it as short-sightedness. If China is to survive, it must adopt strategic racism, and a domino theory of poz.

  103. @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms
    https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Chunyang-He/publication/226386088/figure/fig2/AS:[email protected]/Chinas-macroregional-systems-in-relation-to-provinces-showing-metropolitan-cities.png

    I would go by this map. Historically every dynasty founder have come from the North, with only exception being Hongwu.

    Modern gunpowder age have eroded the advantage of calvary and the Northerners. Chiang comes from Lower Yangzi, and led his Northern Expedition from Guangdong. His fiercest regional troops come Lingnan, the Guangxi-clique.

    On the Commie side, Mao, Deng, and almost every OG PLA general, i.e. Lin Biao, Peng Dehuai come from Upper and Middle Yangzi.

    Xi is the first Northerner CCP leader.

    Replies: @Blinky Bill, @Blinky Bill

    [MORE]

    Xi is the first Northerner CCP leader.

    They might not be “leaders”, but they were both leader of the Central Committee of the Chinese Communist Party and from the North.

    😂😂😂😂

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hua_Guofeng

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhao_Ziyang

  104. @AP
    @Daniel Chieh

    I’m not in Tech but I have also heard this from those I know who are.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    I have the most epic stories of such. I’m in awe, sometimes, really. They do use their verbal intellect well.

    This year, 562 spellers competed in the Scripps National Spelling Bee, and after a grueling 20 rounds, the eight left at the end were named co-champions.

    Just a cursory scan across their faces is an insight into a steely culture of excellence that’s been dominating American spelling contests. Seven of the eight winners this year are of Indian descent.

    Well for themselves, anyway. Self-deception is after all the key to chupatz, I’ve always thought.

    https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/living-a-lie-we-deceive-ourselves-to-better-deceive-others/

    In 1976, in the foreword to Richard Dawkins’s The Selfish Gene, the biologist Robert Trivers floated a novel explanation for such self-serving biases: We dupe ourselves in order to deceive others, creating social advantage. Now after four decades Trivers and his colleagues have published the first research supporting his idea.

    • Replies: @JohnnyWalker123
    @Daniel Chieh

    Aren't the Chinese pretty nepotistic and ethnocentric too?

    How does Chinese 'guanxi' compare to the Indian caste system?

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh

  105. @Daniel Chieh
    @Pumblechook

    I've had the joy of being in a hiring position with all of the accompanied experiences of fofofofo resume spam combined with chupatz and chain recruitment and the general attitude of chupatz. None of this is universal, but there's enough generalities to make it into a solid trend. And that's one of many such experiences.

    I don't hate the players, though, its the game that's broken. It is, indeed, a kind of psychopathy but I also think that I'm sympathetic ultimately that I think that based from what I've seen, which is nontrivial, that kind of attitude is so common within India that being a kind of political-maximizing status machine that denies any blame is a basic necessity for survival. China took a certain way to cope with Malthusian existence; India took another path to cope with their Malthusian existences. Both have their legeacies: Its just different optimization strategies.


    one of the worst for me; the pro-BJP types who nonetheless wag fingers about the West being racist and needing to be more multicultural. Particularly to hear that in Europe, it is completely unacceptable
     
    An Indian found a way to fire me: he found evidence that I was browsing on Unz, and as this is a hate site under zero tolerance rules, this required my immediate elimination. He promptly replaced me with a co-ethnic, of course.

    He's quite good at playing the game.

    Replies: @Blinky Bill, @Mr. Hack, @sher singh

    You should have said you stumbled upon the site from a link on the Southern Poverty Law Center website.

    Where you went for help (after someone left a racist note on your desk). That you found the Anti Asian articles posted on there deeply distressing, to the point of distraction, you had trouble sleeping, eating etc. And that you expected better from your Indian colleague, after all they should understand what you’re going through better than anyone else.

    It wouldn’t be fair to punish you, the victim, for hate directed at you and that you needed their help and understanding.

    • LOL: sudden death
  106. @Daniel Chieh
    @Pumblechook

    I've had the joy of being in a hiring position with all of the accompanied experiences of fofofofo resume spam combined with chupatz and chain recruitment and the general attitude of chupatz. None of this is universal, but there's enough generalities to make it into a solid trend. And that's one of many such experiences.

    I don't hate the players, though, its the game that's broken. It is, indeed, a kind of psychopathy but I also think that I'm sympathetic ultimately that I think that based from what I've seen, which is nontrivial, that kind of attitude is so common within India that being a kind of political-maximizing status machine that denies any blame is a basic necessity for survival. China took a certain way to cope with Malthusian existence; India took another path to cope with their Malthusian existences. Both have their legeacies: Its just different optimization strategies.


    one of the worst for me; the pro-BJP types who nonetheless wag fingers about the West being racist and needing to be more multicultural. Particularly to hear that in Europe, it is completely unacceptable
     
    An Indian found a way to fire me: he found evidence that I was browsing on Unz, and as this is a hate site under zero tolerance rules, this required my immediate elimination. He promptly replaced me with a co-ethnic, of course.

    He's quite good at playing the game.

    Replies: @Blinky Bill, @Mr. Hack, @sher singh

    An Indian found a way to fire me: he found evidence that I was browsing on Unz, and as this is a hate site under zero tolerance rules, this required my immediate elimination.

    “Hate site under zero tolerance rules”? Where, if I may ask, did this incidence occur? I’m working back in the office now, and don’t want to jeopardize my position. What a strange situation, please tell us more? Thanks!

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    @Mr. Hack

    You should not access here from work.

    You will not have a chance to justify yourself, and even if you do, "I hang out with racists" is not something you want in you HR record. All your access records at work are logged, and any evidence of racism can fall under zero tolerance rules, and you'll find yourself suddenly locked out of office.

    Do not make my mistake. The kind host of this blog can attest this happened, if you want to know.

    Do not do this to yourself.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  107. @Jatt Aryaa
    @Daniel Chieh

    Did you really go from insulting Indians to weighing balls?

    Replies: @Thulean Friend, @Daniel Chieh

    Well, on that note, Indians possibly have the lowest level of testosterone in a major ethnic population, which would also support verbal strength, cognitive emphasizing styles and social manipulation as methods of confrontation and advancement. E.g.

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24206051/

    Our data suggest that men from the Indian subcontinent are smaller, manifest lower levels of circulating free testosterone, lower mean PSA levels and lean body mass, but are comparable to white Caucasian men in terms of SHBG, estradiol, levels of visceral fat and CAG repeat length. These data suggest that Indian men manifest a lower level of virilization compared to white Caucasian males and that this might be due to lower mean circulating testosterone levels rather than higher AR CAG repeat length or SHBG.

    This would be consistent with findings that most condoms do not fit safely on Indian men:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6161691.stm

    A survey of more than 1,000 men in India has concluded that condoms made according to international sizes are too large for a majority of Indian men.

    The study found that more than half of the men measured had penises that were shorter than international standards for condoms.

    And would also coincide with Karlin’s note on the general physical weakness of South Asian men, at least for grip strength.

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/strength/

    This is more interesting, and really quite striking. It would appear that the weakest men (South Asians) do not have a stronger hand grip than the strongest women (Europeans).

    • Replies: @sher singh
    @Daniel Chieh

    Idgaf I'm more related to some random Irani nomad than Pajeets.

    S Asians are all malnourished, if u wanna trade blows next time I'm in Canada. ;)

    edit - on that note, you're still weighing ballsacks faggot.

    Replies: @DNS

  108. @Daniel Chieh
    @Pumblechook

    I've had the joy of being in a hiring position with all of the accompanied experiences of fofofofo resume spam combined with chupatz and chain recruitment and the general attitude of chupatz. None of this is universal, but there's enough generalities to make it into a solid trend. And that's one of many such experiences.

    I don't hate the players, though, its the game that's broken. It is, indeed, a kind of psychopathy but I also think that I'm sympathetic ultimately that I think that based from what I've seen, which is nontrivial, that kind of attitude is so common within India that being a kind of political-maximizing status machine that denies any blame is a basic necessity for survival. China took a certain way to cope with Malthusian existence; India took another path to cope with their Malthusian existences. Both have their legeacies: Its just different optimization strategies.


    one of the worst for me; the pro-BJP types who nonetheless wag fingers about the West being racist and needing to be more multicultural. Particularly to hear that in Europe, it is completely unacceptable
     
    An Indian found a way to fire me: he found evidence that I was browsing on Unz, and as this is a hate site under zero tolerance rules, this required my immediate elimination. He promptly replaced me with a co-ethnic, of course.

    He's quite good at playing the game.

    Replies: @Blinky Bill, @Mr. Hack, @sher singh

    I don’t find much difference between Anglo/Dutch & Hindus.
    Self-serving, deceptive, cowardly
    Gas

    Meds, Arabs & Persians r pussies
    Gas

    Berber & Chinky chicks Hot
    Gas Khokhols rest of Slavs r based, the Balkans is Indo-Iranian

    Afghan/Turan are like White Jatts – claim their women

    Darker skin people like African, Caribbean & Indian are nice but unfuckable
    Gas

    Germanic/Norse need Gas – hard-working robots, with 0 leadership quality (charisma)

    Celtic or Anatolian women can stay if big ass

  109. @Daniel Chieh
    @Jatt Aryaa

    Well, on that note, Indians possibly have the lowest level of testosterone in a major ethnic population, which would also support verbal strength, cognitive emphasizing styles and social manipulation as methods of confrontation and advancement. E.g.

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24206051/


    Our data suggest that men from the Indian subcontinent are smaller, manifest lower levels of circulating free testosterone, lower mean PSA levels and lean body mass, but are comparable to white Caucasian men in terms of SHBG, estradiol, levels of visceral fat and CAG repeat length. These data suggest that Indian men manifest a lower level of virilization compared to white Caucasian males and that this might be due to lower mean circulating testosterone levels rather than higher AR CAG repeat length or SHBG.
     
    This would be consistent with findings that most condoms do not fit safely on Indian men:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6161691.stm

    A survey of more than 1,000 men in India has concluded that condoms made according to international sizes are too large for a majority of Indian men.

    The study found that more than half of the men measured had penises that were shorter than international standards for condoms.
     
    And would also coincide with Karlin's note on the general physical weakness of South Asian men, at least for grip strength.

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/strength/
    https://www.unz.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/physical-strength-regions.png


    This is more interesting, and really quite striking. It would appear that the weakest men (South Asians) do not have a stronger hand grip than the strongest women (Europeans).
     

    Replies: @sher singh

    Idgaf I’m more related to some random Irani nomad than Pajeets.

    S Asians are all malnourished, if u wanna trade blows next time I’m in Canada. 😉

    edit – on that note, you’re still weighing ballsacks faggot.

    • Replies: @DNS
    @sher singh


    Idgaf I’m more related to some random Irani nomad than Pajeets.
     
    The term Pajeet actually originated on 4chan and was inspired by the preponderance of Sikhs (Punjabis) in Canada, who often have names ending in -eet, for example the leader of New Democratic Party, Jagmeet Singh.

    S Asians are all malnourished, if u wanna trade blows next time I’m in Canada.
     
    Of course you are in Canada. In my opinion, Canada would be the best location for a state based on the Khalsa, certainly the Canadian authorities will not have the stones to go Operation Bluestar on prospective Sikh militants in the event of an attempted seizure of power, although the Chinese may pose some problems, no doubt an accommodation could be reached that is satisfactory to both parties, and Canada partitioned between Khalistan and the Chinese North American Co-Prosperity Sphere...
  110. Antiracists are making some very illogical arguments here, so I will quickly debunk two:

    “It is about skin color”
    Would any normal Euro nationalist welcome millions of Ashkenazim into his home country? Or, if Africans could take some sort of pill that would make them albinos, would they be welcome?

    “Racism is primitive”
    Actually, as many anti-racists willingly acknowledge, racial classifications date to the scientific revolution, and calculus was invented first. Meanwhile, when two Abos met in the bush, they were a lot more likely to kill each other, than they were to kill someone of a different race, who they might believe was the ghost of their dead relative or a god. And, if anything, modern racism is just an acknowledgement of the dangers of unregulated technology (transportation and communication) – it is essentially futurist in outlook.

    The idea that nationalism is primitive is ridiculous. It is a more advanced state than anything that existed before and created unparalleled accomplishments. Many countries in Africa haven’t been able to accomplish state-unity by 2021 yet, and they might be incapable of it.

    • Agree: Sean
    • Replies: @sher singh
    @songbird

    Nationalism is the idea that some bureaucrat in the capital should have sex with your sister because you learned the same language in public school.

    https://hbdchick.wordpress.com/2011/04/04/whatever-happened-to-european-tribes/

    Having sex with computers is technically more advanced than women, however I wouldn't recommend.

    Replies: @songbird

  111. As I believe is a saying in China, the nail that sticks up gets hammered down.

    Being forthright gets you thought of as an oddball in Chinese culture

    For example, as explained in Nobel Laureate Amartya Sen’s book The Argumentative Indian, there is a long tradition of argumentation and debate in India, where people “encounter masses of arguments and counterarguments spread over incessant debates and disputations”(p. 3)

    I knew there was a reason so few Jews marry Indian girls. Subservient East Asians will be the mothers of our unspeakable new overlords
    https://www.unz.com/isteve/coulter-asian-women-are-too-damn-hot/

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    @Sean

    Jack Ma is fine, though perhaps wiser not to shoot off his mouth at random.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-56448688

    There are societies where it's better to ask forgiveness than permission. China isn't one.

    That's a Japanese saying, not Chinese, btw.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @Sean

    , @solow
    @Sean

    Note the references to "Indian" in the following are to the taciturn American Indians, not the loquacious and argumentative Indians of South Asia. And of course the American Indians are related to the similarly reserved East Asian.

    http://avery.morrow.name/blog/2013/06/the-beauty-of-unturned-stones/


    I’m a big fan of the sayings of Confucius called the Analects. But what would an American think if you had him read this book?

    In a book I read a long time ago, someone offered an American scholar a copy of the Analects, and this is what he said:

    “It’s like the talk of an Indian chief!”

    When I read that book I belted out a deep laugh. This encapsulates the difference between East and West perfectly.

    Let’s translate the famous first line from that first paragraph of the Analects as if an Indian chief were saying it.

    “You must learn, children, and review what you have read. That is fun, see.”

    Suddenly, in the next line, a different topic entirely: “Friends — those are good. Especially, when a friend is coming to visit you from far away. There is nothing as good as that.”

    And then another: “Some people get angry when the world fails to acknowledge them. That is no good. Unemotional and calm under pressure — that is what we call character. Got it?”

    In the East, the Analects are like a sacred book. This book was mandatory reading in China from the early centuries B.C.E., and when it came to Japan through Korea in the 5th and 6th centuries, it was treasured.

    Here we see none of the logic of Aristotle, and none of the piercing rhetoric of the modern West. To put it bluntly, it’s like a a bunch of anecdotes about an old man, and it’s full of unclear sayings, leaps of logic, and blank spaces. The reader has to figure it out for himself, thinking, “Ah, that’s what he’s talking about, right?”

    But you can’t figure it out without guessing and filling in the blanks. The Analects is not carefully argued logic but a collection of brief and broken phrases. In every verse, you can only determine 50% of the meaning from what’s actually written there. The other 50% must be figured out by the reader himself. In other words, there is no reading without guessing.

    I don’t know whether this is related to the Analects or not, but Japan is full of these brief and broken phrases, not only in reading ancient texts but also in everyday conversation. You don’t rigorously explain everything you’re thinking to the person you talk with, but have them read your intentions, and you read theirs as well.

    Japanese people don’t like to argue. Even in the courtroom, laying out cold, precise logic to make your conversation partner fall to his feet and beg for forgiveness invites them to form a grudge, so it can only cause trouble later. So when we negotiate, we speak in brief and broken phrases like an Indian, and add a quiet little smile for breathing room. Someone who can do this well in Japan is said to have character or even worth, but a longtime foreign correspondent once warned me drunkenly over beer, “if you pulled that in America, they’d call you an idiot!”

    Fair enough: in Japan, if you attempted to demonstrate the strength of your opinion using endless layers of logic, you’d be the idiot! The listener already understands what you’re trying to prove.
     

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @songbird, @Agathoklis

    , @solow
    @Sean

    Jack Ma is a Chinese Communist Party member. The CCP is a formal, hierarchical organization that has its internal rules and customs for seniority and power that aren't circumvented by commercial success in the private sector. China is also a communist country in which the state is supposed to control the means of production, so a successful capitalist would have to be kept in check and suppressed at some point.

    Jack Ma isn't just an oddball. He looks like an alien from outer space. His bulbous forehead is too big for his face, and it looks like his forehead is squishing his face from above:

    https://external-preview.redd.it/t6oZP_UAm7mpFURIPJrretVII6RZFXeRU0yEovLzvbw.jpg?width=960&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=2a8b461f12a0720c1c893576a7b31df282127d3c

  112. @songbird
    Antiracists are making some very illogical arguments here, so I will quickly debunk two:

    "It is about skin color"
    Would any normal Euro nationalist welcome millions of Ashkenazim into his home country? Or, if Africans could take some sort of pill that would make them albinos, would they be welcome?

    "Racism is primitive"
    Actually, as many anti-racists willingly acknowledge, racial classifications date to the scientific revolution, and calculus was invented first. Meanwhile, when two Abos met in the bush, they were a lot more likely to kill each other, than they were to kill someone of a different race, who they might believe was the ghost of their dead relative or a god. And, if anything, modern racism is just an acknowledgement of the dangers of unregulated technology (transportation and communication) - it is essentially futurist in outlook.

    The idea that nationalism is primitive is ridiculous. It is a more advanced state than anything that existed before and created unparalleled accomplishments. Many countries in Africa haven't been able to accomplish state-unity by 2021 yet, and they might be incapable of it.

    Replies: @sher singh

    Nationalism is the idea that some bureaucrat in the capital should have sex with your sister because you learned the same language in public school.

    https://hbdchick.wordpress.com/2011/04/04/whatever-happened-to-european-tribes/

    Having sex with computers is technically more advanced than women, however I wouldn’t recommend.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @sher singh


    Nationalism is the idea that some bureaucrat in the capital should have sex with your sister because you learned the same language in public school.

     

    Says the guy who identifies as a "brown." Remind me again, who is in your jāti? Is it every Latino, or only middle class ones? Does it include West Africans and Ethiopians but not Nilotics? Do Bushmen count, or are they red? What about Greeks, or Scandis who can tan up?
  113. @Mr. Hack
    @Daniel Chieh


    An Indian found a way to fire me: he found evidence that I was browsing on Unz, and as this is a hate site under zero tolerance rules, this required my immediate elimination.
     
    "Hate site under zero tolerance rules"? Where, if I may ask, did this incidence occur? I'm working back in the office now, and don't want to jeopardize my position. What a strange situation, please tell us more? Thanks!

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    You should not access here from work.

    You will not have a chance to justify yourself, and even if you do, “I hang out with racists” is not something you want in you HR record. All your access records at work are logged, and any evidence of racism can fall under zero tolerance rules, and you’ll find yourself suddenly locked out of office.

    Do not make my mistake. The kind host of this blog can attest this happened, if you want to know.

    Do not do this to yourself.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Daniel Chieh

    I'm sorry to hear about your misfortune at work. It looks like Orwell's 1984 is really here now. I wish you better luck in finding new employment - thanks for the warning.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh

  114. @sher singh
    @Daniel Chieh

    Idgaf I'm more related to some random Irani nomad than Pajeets.

    S Asians are all malnourished, if u wanna trade blows next time I'm in Canada. ;)

    edit - on that note, you're still weighing ballsacks faggot.

    Replies: @DNS

    Idgaf I’m more related to some random Irani nomad than Pajeets.

    The term Pajeet actually originated on 4chan and was inspired by the preponderance of Sikhs (Punjabis) in Canada, who often have names ending in -eet, for example the leader of New Democratic Party, Jagmeet Singh.

    S Asians are all malnourished, if u wanna trade blows next time I’m in Canada.

    Of course you are in Canada. In my opinion, Canada would be the best location for a state based on the Khalsa, certainly the Canadian authorities will not have the stones to go Operation Bluestar on prospective Sikh militants in the event of an attempted seizure of power, although the Chinese may pose some problems, no doubt an accommodation could be reached that is satisfactory to both parties, and Canada partitioned between Khalistan and the Chinese North American Co-Prosperity Sphere…

  115. British people are traditionally stereotyped as reserved and not natural small talkers or very outgoing, not unlike the East Asian stereotype actually, yet British people are not underrepresented in the corporate world.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    @Europe Europa

    Why isn't your handle England England! ?!!

    Replies: @songbird

    , @Observation
    @Europe Europa

    The British seem to have a subgroup which is more assertive, though not as talkative. Think James Bond. Possibly descendents of Vikings, likely related to royalty.

    Replies: @JohnnyWalker123

    , @oliver elkington
    @Europe Europa

    I would not say the British are reserved at all, you only have to go to a football match or to a pub on a saturday night to see that the British are generally a very sociable people, i think people get the idea of Brits being reserved from how Brits generally don't strike up conversations much with strangers the way Latino's or Italians may do though Northern Brits do so more often but that is more of a minority and in the less touristy parts, as a rule most of Southern England is very much about people being very sociable with their friends but less sociable outside of their friendship circle.

    Replies: @JohnnyWalker123, @EldnahYm

  116. @sher singh
    @songbird

    Nationalism is the idea that some bureaucrat in the capital should have sex with your sister because you learned the same language in public school.

    https://hbdchick.wordpress.com/2011/04/04/whatever-happened-to-european-tribes/

    Having sex with computers is technically more advanced than women, however I wouldn't recommend.

    Replies: @songbird

    Nationalism is the idea that some bureaucrat in the capital should have sex with your sister because you learned the same language in public school.

    Says the guy who identifies as a “brown.” Remind me again, who is in your jāti? Is it every Latino, or only middle class ones? Does it include West Africans and Ethiopians but not Nilotics? Do Bushmen count, or are they red? What about Greeks, or Scandis who can tan up?

    • Troll: sher singh
  117. @Europe Europa
    British people are traditionally stereotyped as reserved and not natural small talkers or very outgoing, not unlike the East Asian stereotype actually, yet British people are not underrepresented in the corporate world.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @Observation, @oliver elkington

    Why isn’t your handle England England! ?!!

    • Agree: Bashibuzuk, AltanBakshi
    • Replies: @songbird
    @Daniel Chieh

    Europa Europa is a very strange Jewish movie. One of the weirder and more off-putting movies that can be found in the German language, IMO.

  118. @128
    How do the pro-China altrighters here feel about China shilling for George Floyd and BLM?

    Replies: @Long term lurker, @Pericles, @songbird, @Anatoly Karlin

    I don’t identify as an Alt Righter, but it syncs with my long-standing position that idiocy needs to be brutally punished.

    From its own perspective, China is not incorrect to twist the knife into an adversary, one that is spreading black legends about Uyghur Genocide, etc.

  119. @Sean
    As I believe is a saying in China, the nail that sticks up gets hammered down.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyMsrgI7-_s
    Being forthright gets you thought of as an oddball in Chinese culture

    For example, as explained in Nobel Laureate Amartya Sen’s book The Argumentative Indian, there is a long tradition of argumentation and debate in India, where people “encounter masses of arguments and counterarguments spread over incessant debates and disputations”(p. 3)
     
    I knew there was a reason so few Jews marry Indian girls. Subservient East Asians will be the mothers of our unspeakable new overlords
    https://www.unz.com/isteve/coulter-asian-women-are-too-damn-hot/

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @solow, @solow

    Jack Ma is fine, though perhaps wiser not to shoot off his mouth at random.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-56448688

    There are societies where it’s better to ask forgiveness than permission. China isn’t one.

    That’s a Japanese saying, not Chinese, btw.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    @Daniel Chieh


    That’s a Japanese saying, not Chinese, btw.
     
    There is somewhat similar Chinese saying, though: 人怕出名猪怕肥 (A man fears getting famous like a pig fears getting fat).

    I think there's also a more modern satirical version of 削头, which takes a lot more elaboration, but basically is like "cutting off the top of a vegetable's head", with the suggestion that the State wants to turn everyone into an equivalent "leek."

    Implied in all of this is that the Chinese are rather hostile to the process and see it as something to either defy or hide from, until the Japanese who relate to similar concepts with more acceptance and valorization of sacrifice of self for common weal.

    The Chinese are all about that too, technically, until they have to sacrifice anything themselves. Its an odd setup and feeds somewhat into the ancient issues 忠vs孝, etc,etc. There's a lot that could be unwrapped.

    The Japanese way is probably a lot healthier tbh. Infinite status competition feeds into an instability has not been good for tfr or general sanity for China.

    , @Sean
    @Daniel Chieh



    Coco Liu and Lulu Yilun Chen
    Bloomberg
    16 Mar 2021
    |
    Business and Economy
    Bloomberg
    China wants Jack Ma’s Alibaba to shed media assets: Report
    The government is reportedly concerned about the technology giant’s influence over public opinion, especially on social media.
     
  120. @AP
    @Vishnugupta


    .The caste breakup of Indian Americans is 20 % Brahmin,40% upper caste(including Brahmins) , 50% middle castes and 10% Dalits
     
    I thought it was much higher than that ( the article I linked to claims 90% belong to upper castes). Still, 40% upper caste would still skew the results in terms of average IQ. Furthermore, even the middle and lower caste people are still well filtered when they come to the USA, we aren’t getting poor illiterate peasants.

    Amusingly, American civil rights laws don’t cover caste discrimination and there is a lot of discrimination against Dalits in the USA by their upper-caste brethren. Some of these people who oppress the Dalits also support Black Lives Matter, aping their wealthy white peers.

    https://www.trtworld.com/magazine/a-silicon-valley-lawsuit-reveals-caste-discrimination-is-rife-in-the-us-39773

    Replies: @Mr. XYZ, @Dmitry

    Ignoring some things like the visa lottery, USA has mostly a selective immigration regime with countries like India and China.

    Therefore, Indian and Chinese immigrants in the USA, are not representative of the normal people in those countries, but will be selections of families with disproportionately middle class values.

    But because of American cultural power, the behaviours of the sample of people which is selected by America’s immigration system, is often projected as being representative of those nationalities as a whole.

    For example, Chinese Americans are projected as middle class nerds by the American media. Whereas Chinese people you see in the rest of the world are often tough looking, proletariat or peasant personalities.

    It’s because America’s immigration regime selects for middle class nerds from China and India, while it has more open borders with Latin America (therefore selecting more more peasant and proletarian Latinos).

    average IQ.

    “IQ tests” measures often the cultural conformity of the students to the test designers’ culture (although it might also filter away people with mental issues like ADD). The questions themselves often do not have an objective correct answer, so you have to be quite acculturated to them, to know which one to select .

    America’s selective immigration system is choosing disproportionately people from international educations, people who can navigate the paperwork of immigration, etc, so these cultural abilities might correlate with being able to navigate “IQ tests”, which is a similar kind of paperwork.

    discrimination against Dalits in the USA by their upper-caste brethren

    Less than in America, I think many Indians and Chinese in Western Europe, are not from any special classes, and numerically most will not be like Imran Khan or Gangdi type of upper class elite. Indians have had times of not very selective immigration to countries like the United Kingdom, where they arrived as working class people.

    Yet if you look in the elite universities in Great Britain (and therefore the most educated people of the world), there are nowadays very high levels of Indian and Chinese students there.

    So, the next generation of middle class people in UK, will have disproportionately high levels of Indians and Chinese in it, and many of those might have been of peasant origin just a few generations ago (and could have been hired by the English as almost slave workers).


    More generally, there is a view in this forum that the development level of different countries is a reflection of the natural human capital level of those countries. But history would make no sense, under this assumption.

    There are places today which majority “third world” human capital levels like Israel, Singapore, Hong Kong, that we can watch climbing into the first world within living memory (or in the 2020s/2030s as we watch in Israel’s case, while Singapore and Hong Kong were already climbing into first world in the 1990), as a result of political stability or the basis of a modern English-originated legal system. This is while the majority of their population would have been considered to be primitive peasants three generations ago.

    And there are places like Buenos Aires and Lvov, which had the world’s highest human capital and cultural/intellectual achievements less than century ago (until the mid-20th century: Lvov school of mathematics, the literary culture that created Borges, etc,), and where despite a high human capital population, can fall into multigenerations of decline as a result of political vicissitudes.

  121. @Ludwig
    One of the fascinating things about this blog is seeing how commentators who can otherwise intelligently delve into what happened in some small region three hundred years ago in Central Europe, are reduced to superficial, tribal idiots when talking about cultures outside Europe.

    For example, there are those who conflate achievement/behavior patterns of Indian Americans - themselves a stratified bunch across educational achievement, business acumen (influenced no doubt by caste/regional ethnicity back in India) - with India as a whole, and who have actually made the jaw dropping comments that high achieving people from a country (in this case India) should not be allowed in because apparently the country of origin is infested with cooties. This is the kind of thinking one would associate with babbling idiots but the same person can otherwise intelligently discuss the area of his expertise which lies entirely within Europe.

    This same person - and others such - also rail against the alleged tribalism and nepotism of Indian Americans as a reason for them making it, entirely ironically missing their own extreme tribalism - and deep ignorance - in making these comments.

    So one then is to believe that Sundar Pichai became head of Google because Larry Page, Sergei Brin, Eric Schmidt et al were crypto-Indians. Similarly with Satya Nadella who was personally groomed by Bill Gates and turned Microsoft around after the disastrous Steve Ballmer. And apparently scientists like these 12 Indians deeply involved in NASA Mars missions https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/other/meet-the-indians-on-the-mars-perseverance-team/ar-BB1e4aye got their jobs (and many accolades) simply because JPL is sone Indian stronghold (rather than one that attracts highly motivated, intelligent scientists worldwide. There are many other nationalities who also work at JPL).

    These same commentators would rail against Wokeism - which is identity politics run amok for the benefit of grifters and power hungry opportunists of all colors - but then apparently objective merit based achievements in the US - which they would otherwise support - in which both EA and SA (Indians) are over-represented is due to “nepotism”.

    Clearly family based businesses, like small shops or motels etc are “nepotistic” in the same way that any privately held organization - eg the Trump Organization - is nepotistic. (Even publicly owned businesses eg Ford, Walmart were nepotistic and indeed quite exclusionary to people of the wrong color for quite a while. THAT apparently is not nepotistic or tribal.)

    Meanwhile another prolific commentator replying to a interesting comment worth exploring on how apparently a Brahmin Indian American were upset about a child partnering with a Japanese American, missed the whole point by showing a picture of developed Japanese city and a destitute Indian community as if this same Brahmin family in the US would be delighted if their child married someone from that community instead. So “India” then is not represented as a multi-dimensional bell curve - as indeed every large grouping can be - but by one image.

    Reading this blog then has reinforced my observation about many people: that they can be highly intellectual and discerning about certain topics but fall back into primitive drooling tribalism and idiocy outside their topic of expertise. In other words, the logic, commitment to reason and inquiry they display in their area is cast aside in favor of their raw emotions and deep prejudices outside it.

    I’ve noticed this in RL where many acquaintances who are deep experts in their fields - even in hard fields like Physics, AI etc - end up believing the most inane, easily falsifiable and contradictory propaganda against say Russia displaying a complete lack of curiosity, intellectual rigor that they spent their professional lives steeped in. Russia to them is what the NYT/Western media tells them it is.

    Another observation I can make based on this blog alone is that, Karlin being a prominent exception, many Russian or pro-Russian commentators seem to live in a bubble formed circa the 19th century - or charitably the late 20th century - and horrified and bewildered about the world they find themselves in with all non-white, non-Christians suddenly polluting the views outside their bubbles. While these commentators can endlessly dissect the many communities among Europe - and divide them into 15,000 different strands of tribal origins and disputes that persist till today - the world outside it is evidently divided into only five or six groupings with no understanding or curiosity of the variety and deep histories within them. For example in the grouping of complex ethno-states called India, there are 400+ languages alone, with about 20 main ones spoken by tens of millions.

    Fortunately for Russia, it appears Putin & co - while strongly maintaining the ties to the past - have been ahead of many of their countrymen in realizing the future of Russia, rather than an imagined nostalgic glorious past, lies in greater ties not with the West - which is seeing its 500 years of hegemony being challenged amidst their own internal divisions - but with the rest of the wide World with all its myriad communities as history remorselessly marches on.

    Replies: @Thulean Friend, @Beckow, @Anatoly Karlin, @EldnahYm

    Excellent comment.

  122. Let’s be honest. 13 out 500 isn’t breaking the bank, yeah it twice the proportion of south asian population, but since you are getting the cream of the crop, it makes sense.

    That’s like asking how many white CEO’s are there from Ivy league? A lot i would presume.

    Now if you tell me, in 20 years, there will be 50 ceo’s out of 500 that are south asian – then yeah I would be like ok that’s a lot of power.

  123. @Daniel Chieh
    @Europe Europa

    Why isn't your handle England England! ?!!

    Replies: @songbird

    Europa Europa is a very strange Jewish movie. One of the weirder and more off-putting movies that can be found in the German language, IMO.

  124. So I suppose that Africans in Guangdong are treated better than blacks in the US, or illegal Mexicans in the US?

    • Replies: @songbird
    @128

    There's also a movement to call China racist when it comes to blacks. I wonder if it might be partly state-financed?

    , @china-russia-all-the-way
    @128

    I don't think Africans have it so bad in Guangzhou. And there are only a few thousand Africans living in Guangzhou on a very long term basis (multi-year) so it's not a big deal worthy of so much global media analysis. In 2020, there was huge outcry about discrimination against blacks in Guangzhou during the pandemic and pictures of blacks thrown out of rented apartments onto the streets will leave an impression for years. But there was a non-racist explanation for the apartment evictions.


    “The landlords, who were illegally taking rent money are liable. The understanding is that the tenant doesn’t lead police back to the house. That is why some are claiming they are being forced out of their houses, genuinely because the landlords themselves are facing jail time if caught,” he said.
     
    https://www.monitor.co.ug/News/National/Covid-19-Inside-story-300-Ugandans-stuck-China/688334-5522002-12fy2g1z/index.html

    Much is about perception. Africans in China are not prodded by an overwhelming cultural climate to see Chinese people as racist so even if there are bad experiences with Chinese, generally Africans shake off those experiences and see China as welcoming.

    Replies: @Europe Europa

  125. @Ludwig
    @Beckow

    Since you chose to engage:


    A lot of what you wrote is a projection of what you think others may think, not really what they wrote. The talk of bubbles and 19th century is a classical straw-man argument: because one doesn’t want his society overrun by tens of millions migrants from the Third World doesn’t at all mean that they want to restore 1888 or have normal inter-cultural relations with normal people from different cultures – in numbers that have always existed and always will.
     
    You seem paranoid about being whatever pristine society you think exists in your own mind, being “overrun” by the “Third world”.

    Firstly, you fit the archetype of bubble ignorance painting a broad brush over what you claim as the “Third world” which is essentially based on current development standards and which has changed through history. For you the horror of anyone from the Third World is dark, diseased migrants carrying the plague apparently (as per a highly ignorant and revealing post where your response to my talking of highly educated Indian Americans was “But India has the plague” which was not only untrue, but even if it were true is a complete non sequitur.)

    Secondly, lumping together all the myriad nationalities across the “Third World” and the different types of migrants into one type is further proof of your absolute inability to be rational and knowledgeable outside your narrow field of expertise (and even narrower mindset).

    Take India: To travel out from India requires mostly planes unlike African or Middle Eastern refugees into Europe, or Latin American refugees into the US who migrated across land en mass.

    The bulk of Indian Americans migrated legally across a few different channels:

    A) highly educated ones that come for studies and remain and/or executives at top positions (one can include other fields like actors/sports stars or the visa category for “highly accomplished immigrants” [paraphrasing] which speeds up the immigration process. Sundar Pichai and Satya Nadella are examples of the former. The bulk of top executives across the US have similar profiles as are many scientists, doctors and so on. (Yes, like with every situation there are grifters, fakes etc but on the whole like the hordes of immigrants before them including many European ones over the centuries, they have allowed the US to keep a technological and economic edge.). These types are mostly from higher castes in India who have had the opportunity and culture of seeking higher education. They advance through sheer merit and hard work and are represented in the group Karlin mentions above.

    B) consultants who come on temporary visas for work and find permanent work visas. These are criticized for depressing wages of existing Americans. Incidentally from my observation very few of these rise to the top of the food chain since by the time they get their permanent residency they are too old to advance beyond a certain level. Meanwhile US companies like these workers since they help profits and keep them competitive.

    C) small business owners: they are the mom and pop shops, the bodegas, the motels etc. Many of these come from a few locations in India like the state of Gujarat which is known for hard working business minded, closely knit communities.

    D) marriages/chain migration: application for immediate family members. Indians - like many Asians - have a culture of taking care of their parents and even those who come are taken care of by the family and not thrown in the streets to be taken care of the welfare state. Meanwhile chain migration of siblings etc has slowed since the visa process for this category takes decades and as India’s economic opportunities have improved, less desire to make the trip.

    E) lottery/political refugees: this is relatively rare. There are some cases of people claiming to flee persecution (eg Sikhs) but they are relatively minor. Lottery for Indians I believe is non-existent (along with other nationalities who have significant presence in the US).

    What you think of hordes of Indians, those poor masses you see from your bubble, mostly make it to the Gulf countries of at all where they work as indentured labor.

    Incidentally the Gulf countries also take in highly educated Indians and nationalities from everywhere. Dubai for example realized that it cannot rely on an oil economy and in addition to poor labor, has invested in attracting technical talent from everywhere. So in Dubai, a lot of hotel executives, financiers, doctors I’ve encountered are Indians (and some Pakistani esp doctors); I also know of at least one Indian American AI expert who was offered a crazy salary to put together a team in Abu Dhabi to advance AI technologies. As evidenced by its recent patch up with Israel, the Gulf countries - while maintaining the primacy of their monarchies and Arab culture - are casting a wide net to attract too talent regardless of origin (I’ve met Nigerian financiers in Dubai as well for example.)


    There are intelligent Indians and India has 400+ languages: but that is irrelevant to the point that large numbers of Indians who are neither particularly intelligent nor needed are migrating to the West. There are 1.5 billion of them, how many do you want to come? And why should young professionals be displaced by them? Because you think they are “smarter”, or because Bill Gates likes them because they are cheaper? That Steve Ballmer is an idiot changes nothing, there are idiots of all nationalities. The Indian guy running Citi a few years back was not exactly a genius.

    Using a few names – as you do – is also completely irrelevant. This is about large numbers, not about a few over-achievers. When you go there you are again simply trying to avoid a discussion because you sense that you would lose the argument.

     

    You are contradicting yourself and in your blind bigorty don’t even realize it. India has 1.4 billion people and say even 1% are intelligent/over achievers as opposed to say 10% of Russians, that’s about the same number of intelligent people, say 14 million people. If you look at the distribution of Indian Americans in the US, these overachievers are the ones who are overwhelmingly represented there. Indian Americans are - on average - objectively at the top end of wealth, academic achievement etc. One example is the paper that Karlin cites in his thread.

    This is why talking of the 1.4 billion people is irrelevant when we are talking about a subset of them who are not necessarily representative of the larger group. For example, by causal observation in NY (or in Dubai or many places in Europe for that matter), Slavic women seem over represented in one particular profession. This does not necessarily mean that this is the general distribution back in Russia/Ukraine/Belarus.

    So clearly - like most immigrants - these Indians are not representative of their countries. So talking about the 1.4 billion Indians - as if they are one undifferentiated mass - is not just ignorant but irrelevant. It’s talking about what kind of talent you want whether it is from Germany, India or New Guinea.

    The fundamental problem you have is that while you can expound in some detail about different East European nationalities and their complex histories, once you see an “Indian” your pre-frontal cortex shuts down and your limbic brain takes over (like implying that Satya Nadella became CEO of Microsoft because of “cheap labor”). You seem to conflate Indians in US or even Europe with the desperate hordes escaping poverty across land borders. They are not.


    You argue that if one criticises others for self-serving or other behaviors, he should in turn not show a preference for his own group. Ideally. But in a world we live in that is nonsense. Trying to be objective is intellectually nice, but in practise it doesn’t work. It is another technique to disempower smarter people by appealing to their sense of fair-play. For me it is enough that we on our side are ‘fairer”, not perfect by any standard, but fairer. We listen to their arguments, they don’t listen to ours. There is no point in dying on that hill, nobody would remember it.
     
    I am criticizing those like you who accuse Indians specifically of being groupist - and falsely claiming their achievement in the US is primally a result of this - of taking a basic human trait and making it specifically about Indians. I have no problem with say Russians hanging out with other Russians, Indians with a Indians (and sub groupings therein), Chinese with Chinese, Italian Americans with Italian Americans etc. We gravitate towards people with whom we have shared culture/passions. I enjoy this group because even when I disagree with many points, there is usually some effort towards rational, intellectual discussion which I have a passion for and learn from. (There is also a lot of irrational discussion which I mostly ignore except in cases like this).

    But let me alleviate your concern in one regard at least when it comes to Russia. As far as I can tell, the opinion of Russia from the elites to the general public in India, Indonesia etc is mostly formed by Western opinion which means they think Russia is a cold, authoritarian place where Putin and the KGB pretty much tell you what to do, the men are either criminals or drunk on vodka and the women - well they are known for that profession which is available in most countries outside Russia anyways. So no one is clamoring to get into Russia. Poor migrants look to the Gulf countries to repatriate money; educated ones either go West or increasingly remain at home to join thriving economies. (Indonesia is 7th by PPP).

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @DNS, @Pumblechook, @Anatoly Karlin, @Beckow

    That said, one thing I find rather odds about (Indian) Indians is the inordinate pride they seem to take in the achievements of their diaspora. This is not something you see amongst, say, the Chinese.

    India would be better off if those elite Indians had stayed in India.

    • Replies: @Shortsword
    @Anatoly Karlin

    India's diaspora stands for a large percent of the total amount of modern achievements by Indians. For Chinese the percent will be much lower. This at least partly explains the difference.

    Replies: @DNS, @Dmitry

  126. @128
    So I suppose that Africans in Guangdong are treated better than blacks in the US, or illegal Mexicans in the US?

    Replies: @songbird, @china-russia-all-the-way

    There’s also a movement to call China racist when it comes to blacks. I wonder if it might be partly state-financed?

  127. china-russia-all-the-way says:
    @128
    So I suppose that Africans in Guangdong are treated better than blacks in the US, or illegal Mexicans in the US?

    Replies: @songbird, @china-russia-all-the-way

    I don’t think Africans have it so bad in Guangzhou. And there are only a few thousand Africans living in Guangzhou on a very long term basis (multi-year) so it’s not a big deal worthy of so much global media analysis. In 2020, there was huge outcry about discrimination against blacks in Guangzhou during the pandemic and pictures of blacks thrown out of rented apartments onto the streets will leave an impression for years. But there was a non-racist explanation for the apartment evictions.

    “The landlords, who were illegally taking rent money are liable. The understanding is that the tenant doesn’t lead police back to the house. That is why some are claiming they are being forced out of their houses, genuinely because the landlords themselves are facing jail time if caught,” he said.

    https://www.monitor.co.ug/News/National/Covid-19-Inside-story-300-Ugandans-stuck-China/688334-5522002-12fy2g1z/index.html

    Much is about perception. Africans in China are not prodded by an overwhelming cultural climate to see Chinese people as racist so even if there are bad experiences with Chinese, generally Africans shake off those experiences and see China as welcoming.

    • Replies: @Europe Europa
    @china-russia-all-the-way


    Much is about perception. Africans in China are not prodded by an overwhelming cultural climate to see Chinese people as racist so even if there are bad experiences with Chinese, generally Africans shake off those experiences and see China as welcoming.
     
    It seems to be only in Western countries where blacks and non-whites generally internalise negative experiences as representative of the entire native population and use it to eternally demand special privileges and reparations.

    In non-Western countries, black immigrants tend to take a more balanced view, like "a few people have been racist but most people are nice", whereas blacks in the West just take the view that every single white person is racist whether overtly or passively.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh

  128. @Anatoly Karlin
    @Ludwig

    That said, one thing I find rather odds about (Indian) Indians is the inordinate pride they seem to take in the achievements of their diaspora. This is not something you see amongst, say, the Chinese.

    India would be better off if those elite Indians had stayed in India.

    Replies: @Shortsword

    India’s diaspora stands for a large percent of the total amount of modern achievements by Indians. For Chinese the percent will be much lower. This at least partly explains the difference.

    • Agree: Vishnugupta
    • Replies: @DNS
    @Shortsword


    India’s diaspora stands for a large percent of the total amount of modern achievements by Indians. For Chinese the percent will be much lower. This at least partly explains the difference.
     
    Of the 4 Nobel prizes in hard sciences won by ethnic Indians (if we may be so bold as to accept there is indeed an "Indian ethnicity"), only one was won by an Indian in India - C.V. Raman in the days of the British Raj.

    Since then the winners have been Indians born in India but naturalised as American/British citizens.

    India also lacks its own indigenous behemoths like Huawei or Tencent, hence pride has to be drawn from the fact that a lot of CEOs of American multi-nationals seem to be Indian origin, notably of Google and Microsoft, which in turn drives the emigration fever amongst the middle class who see these CEOs as Indians who achieved the American Dream and also want a piece of the pie for themselves or their children.

    Replies: @Vishnugupta, @songbird

    , @Dmitry
    @Shortsword

    Indians are in a very strange position, as they are nationality with a lot of historical intellectual achievements (and I find it possible to believe that there could be a future intellectual renaissance there one day), but which are attached to one of the world's poorest and most dysfunctional countries.

    While Chinese have very few intellectual achievements still today, but on the other hand China is a rapidly industrializing, second world country, which seems to be on a normal development pathway now, after their disastrous experiences in the 19th and 20th centuries (although the 21st century's economic development, not without some dysfunctional aspects, such as flooding the world with low quality consumer products).

    Chinese are nowadays behaving somewhat like a normal nationality, matched to their country's economic development level. By comparison, Indians are eccentrically generating experts who are winning awards in 21st century computer science, while their country is still in a position of being unable to introduce 19th century things like sewage systems and running water.

    -

    If you enjoy walking videos on YouTube, you will notice that Indian cities superficially often look worse than African ones.

    So Indians a contradictory situation of nowadays their researchers starting to win awards in topics that we would associated with advanced economies (e.g. like distributed computing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dijkstra_Prize )

    Meanwhile, Indian urban life can sometimes still look like it is somewhere in the early 19th century at best:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSZ1SShTDFY


    By comparison, centres of major Chinese cities are starting to look like late-20th century places already, that would match advanced societies. In terms of the advancement of the urban environment, there superficially seems like there currently can be up to a century of difference between China and India.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPAHDDALrjI

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Daniel Chieh

  129. @Daniel Chieh
    @Sean

    Jack Ma is fine, though perhaps wiser not to shoot off his mouth at random.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-56448688

    There are societies where it's better to ask forgiveness than permission. China isn't one.

    That's a Japanese saying, not Chinese, btw.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @Sean

    That’s a Japanese saying, not Chinese, btw.

    There is somewhat similar Chinese saying, though: 人怕出名猪怕肥 (A man fears getting famous like a pig fears getting fat).

    I think there’s also a more modern satirical version of 削头, which takes a lot more elaboration, but basically is like “cutting off the top of a vegetable’s head”, with the suggestion that the State wants to turn everyone into an equivalent “leek.”

    Implied in all of this is that the Chinese are rather hostile to the process and see it as something to either defy or hide from, until the Japanese who relate to similar concepts with more acceptance and valorization of sacrifice of self for common weal.

    The Chinese are all about that too, technically, until they have to sacrifice anything themselves. Its an odd setup and feeds somewhat into the ancient issues 忠vs孝, etc,etc. There’s a lot that could be unwrapped.

    The Japanese way is probably a lot healthier tbh. Infinite status competition feeds into an instability has not been good for tfr or general sanity for China.

  130. @Europe Europa
    British people are traditionally stereotyped as reserved and not natural small talkers or very outgoing, not unlike the East Asian stereotype actually, yet British people are not underrepresented in the corporate world.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @Observation, @oliver elkington

    The British seem to have a subgroup which is more assertive, though not as talkative. Think James Bond. Possibly descendents of Vikings, likely related to royalty.

    • Replies: @JohnnyWalker123
    @Observation

    Upper-class British are seen as classy, refined, posh, and articulate.

    Being talkative isn't helpful if you make yourself look like a fool, or if you come across as obnoxious.

  131. @Shortsword
    @Anatoly Karlin

    India's diaspora stands for a large percent of the total amount of modern achievements by Indians. For Chinese the percent will be much lower. This at least partly explains the difference.

    Replies: @DNS, @Dmitry

    India’s diaspora stands for a large percent of the total amount of modern achievements by Indians. For Chinese the percent will be much lower. This at least partly explains the difference.

    Of the 4 Nobel prizes in hard sciences won by ethnic Indians (if we may be so bold as to accept there is indeed an “Indian ethnicity”), only one was won by an Indian in India – C.V. Raman in the days of the British Raj.

    Since then the winners have been Indians born in India but naturalised as American/British citizens.

    India also lacks its own indigenous behemoths like Huawei or Tencent, hence pride has to be drawn from the fact that a lot of CEOs of American multi-nationals seem to be Indian origin, notably of Google and Microsoft, which in turn drives the emigration fever amongst the middle class who see these CEOs as Indians who achieved the American Dream and also want a piece of the pie for themselves or their children.

    • Replies: @Vishnugupta
    @DNS

    Other Indians in India have done Nobel Prize quality work SN Bose of Bose Einstein Statistics fame('Boson' is named after him);Meghnad Saha ( Saha Ionization equations) among others.

    Still the trend of emigrating to the west by the best and brightest has significantly declined and is likely to continue declining as opportunities are increasingly available in India and the West's relative decline is now visible live to this section of people.

    Anecdotally I would estimate the percentage of top tier STEM graduates permanently migrating to the west is around 50% down from well over 90% in the 1990s/early 2000s.

    Replies: @utu

    , @songbird
    @DNS

    Indian boys and girls talk about working at NASA or SpaceX. None of them talk about the Indian space program.

    Replies: @Vishnugupta

  132. @DNS
    @Shortsword


    India’s diaspora stands for a large percent of the total amount of modern achievements by Indians. For Chinese the percent will be much lower. This at least partly explains the difference.
     
    Of the 4 Nobel prizes in hard sciences won by ethnic Indians (if we may be so bold as to accept there is indeed an "Indian ethnicity"), only one was won by an Indian in India - C.V. Raman in the days of the British Raj.

    Since then the winners have been Indians born in India but naturalised as American/British citizens.

    India also lacks its own indigenous behemoths like Huawei or Tencent, hence pride has to be drawn from the fact that a lot of CEOs of American multi-nationals seem to be Indian origin, notably of Google and Microsoft, which in turn drives the emigration fever amongst the middle class who see these CEOs as Indians who achieved the American Dream and also want a piece of the pie for themselves or their children.

    Replies: @Vishnugupta, @songbird

    Other Indians in India have done Nobel Prize quality work SN Bose of Bose Einstein Statistics fame(‘Boson’ is named after him);Meghnad Saha ( Saha Ionization equations) among others.

    Still the trend of emigrating to the west by the best and brightest has significantly declined and is likely to continue declining as opportunities are increasingly available in India and the West’s relative decline is now visible live to this section of people.

    Anecdotally I would estimate the percentage of top tier STEM graduates permanently migrating to the west is around 50% down from well over 90% in the 1990s/early 2000s.

    • Thanks: Rattus Norwegius
    • Replies: @utu
    @Vishnugupta

    "Bose Einstein Statistics fame" - The only contribution of Einstein to Bose-Einstein statistics is that Einstein helped Bose to get published. Ten days after receiving letter from Bose Einstein wrote his own "improved' version of it. And he got away with his shameless scavenging, however his luck ran out three years late when he tried to plagiarize 1926 Klein paper in 1927 when journal's editor forced Einstein to add a disclaimer that everything was done before by Klein.


    https://www.unz.com/article/neurotic-leftists-mobbing-noah-carl-un-pc-cambridge-u-researcher-establishment-right-dithers/#comment-2711291

    Hr. H. Mandel macht mich darauf aufmerksam, dass die von mir hier mitgetcilten Ergbnisse nich neu sind. Der ganze Inhalt findet sich in der Arbeit vo O. Klein (Zeitschr. f. Physik 37, 12, 1926, S. 895). Man vergleiche ferner Fochs Arveit (Zeitschr. f. Physisk 39, 226, 1926).
     
    Einstein had access to Klein manusctopy of which he learned from Ehrenfest

    Introduction to Volume 15 of The Collected Papers of Albert Einstein. The Berlin Years: Writings and Correspondence June 1925 – May 1927
    https://arxiv.org/abs/1803.10662

    “Both Ehrenfest and Lorentz urged Einstein to come to Leyden and join their meetings with Klein. Einstein wrote that he had to finish some things before vacationing with his sons (Doc. 319), but asked to see Klein’s paper two and a half months after he had been first informed of it (Doc. 356). Most likely at Ehrenfest’s suggestion, Klein wrote to Einstein directly in late August 1926 (Doc. 363). He sent Einstein not only the manuscript of his paper (Klein, O. 1926), but also proposed how he wanted to develop the theory further. In particular, he explained his idea of assuming a periodicity of the fifth coordinate, averaging over it, and reconceptualizing Schrödinger’s wave function as a component of the five-dimensional metric by effectively dropping the sharpened cylinder condition and using the same version of the condition that Kaluza had used seven years earlier.
     
  133. @Pumblechook
    @Ludwig

    To put it bluntly, but not wanting to be rude, you seem to be reading and writing too much into it - at the high level, there are many people on this forum who are ethnonationalist to some degree. And if it is not already obvious to you, Indians are:

    a) very high in number
    b) across all societal levels, there is a great desire to leave their country behind and settle abroad - and Eastern Europe is definitely now on the menu, in particular the EU parts


    There are, I believe, particular Indian traits/characteristics which 'trigger' non-Indians in a way that not all populations manage to do - but this would be irrelevant if it were not for the 1.4 billion population and desire to emigrate. Working in a multinational IT company, I've had the chance to interact with many many Indians from many many different backgrounds.

    Goes without saying, at their best I have encountered erudite, kind, intelligent Indians without any weird agendas. But for sure, there is a disproportionate number which tick one or more of the following criteria:

    - nasty tendency to treat inferiors with derision and lick the boots of superiors
    - inferiority complex towards 'goras' combined with psycho-sexual fixation with them
    - highly attuned antenna to when they are about to be blamed correctly for doing something wrong, and preparing reasons/justifications as to why others are in fact to blame
    - an arrogance in a small number of high-caste types obviously raised as the centre of the universe...this is not the usual arrogance a westerner might have in mind...though i'm sure lower caste Indians can emphasise with this one
    - one of the worst for me; the pro-BJP types who nonetheless wag fingers about the West being racist and needing to be more multicultural. Particularly to hear that in Europe, it is completely unacceptable
    - bringing in their own network as contractors on projects for juicy day rates. Always found it astounding that there are young professionals on permanent contracts being paid 1/3 of what was paid to foreigners who can't even speak English and without a loose understanding of IT. Any serious country would ensure that money goes to locals who need to raise a family and build the nation

    Whilst I've also worked closely with Japanese, Latin Americans and Romanians as clients and colleagues, I have nowhere near the same level of very specific and recurring observations/complaints. This is definitely something peculiar to India and Indians.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @JohnnyWalker123, @Grahamsno(G64)

    Elaborate on the psychosexual fixation.

  134. @Daniel Chieh
    @AP

    I have the most epic stories of such. I'm in awe, sometimes, really. They do use their verbal intellect well.


    This year, 562 spellers competed in the Scripps National Spelling Bee, and after a grueling 20 rounds, the eight left at the end were named co-champions.

    Just a cursory scan across their faces is an insight into a steely culture of excellence that’s been dominating American spelling contests. Seven of the eight winners this year are of Indian descent.
     

    Well for themselves, anyway. Self-deception is after all the key to chupatz, I've always thought.

    https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/living-a-lie-we-deceive-ourselves-to-better-deceive-others/


    In 1976, in the foreword to Richard Dawkins’s The Selfish Gene, the biologist Robert Trivers floated a novel explanation for such self-serving biases: We dupe ourselves in order to deceive others, creating social advantage. Now after four decades Trivers and his colleagues have published the first research supporting his idea.
     

    Replies: @JohnnyWalker123

    Aren’t the Chinese pretty nepotistic and ethnocentric too?

    How does Chinese ‘guanxi’ compare to the Indian caste system?

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    @JohnnyWalker123

    Comparison is actually almost completely inapplicable. The best analogy is that it is like the comparison of a RV with a bike; they are similar insofar as they both can provide mobility, so both caste and guanxi are forms of social bonds.

    However, even to my third-party and thus limited understanding, it was pretty evident that caste provides a rich context and guidance to the question of life, and even without any formal regulation, can inform one in life throughout. For a start, it can help determine your name. I was working with programmers at one point, and they mentioned one familiar could guess that they were from Kshatriya(warrior caste) from surnames and first names which were usually expected to be something "fierce." A name is just one thing but as you can imagine, one's name has influence in one's life, especially when it is also heavily associated with cultural underpinnings and even without any formal controls, can guide one in life.

    In my hiring capacity, it was also not uncommon that people would try to hire others from their village even if they weren't qualified, and then cover for them. There was some complex reasoning to this, but I agree with my boss at the time it was just best not to even try to understand, and just attempt to put a stop to it.

    The thing is, one has to realize that this is genuine mutual aid - it isn't just selfishness, its some form of deep cultural bound that permits obligations to form, even at self-sacrifice. But one thing notably in this is the question of loyalty: there's a strong sense of loyalty to family, and to various cultural or religious concept. I don't really see any sense of loyalty to the company(and if there is, its muted at best) and it may not be so much to the concept of a nation at all.

    The thing is, caste is so rich and extensive that it can basically substitute as a replacement for the entire modern economy. I'll quote from David Gaeber here:


    Foreign visitors were later to be awed by the self-sufficiency of the traditional Indian village, with its elaborate system of landowning castes, farmers, and such “service castes” as barbers, smiths, tanners, drummers, and washermen, all arranged in hierarchical order, each seen as making its own unique and necessary contribution to their little society, all of it typically operating entirely without the use of metal currency. It was only possible for those reduced to the status of Sudras and Untouchables to have a chance of accepting their lowly position because the exaction of local landlords was, again, on nothing like the same scale as that under earlier governments—under which villagers had to support cities of upwards of a million people—and because the village community became an effective means of holding the state and its representatives at least partially at bay.

     

    Guanxi is nothing akin to that. Its basically what is networking with some added ritual and familial component. For example, if your father's high school friend had a son who needed a job, he might ask your dad to help him. Your dad might ask you to help him, then, and if you thought that the kid wasn't too terrible, you might give him a chance.

    Its basically what the West would call a patronage network or an "old boy's network," although there's some Chinese alterations to it. As the Chinese traditionally saw the family as the lowest unit of political organization, guanxi is primarily a system of creating fictive kinship. Through it, and the ritual of mutual gifting(mutual indebthood) and frequent meals, a person who is not family is ritually considered as if he is family, and therefore treated with additional consideration. But its pretty limited, as it might be even with blood family - say if you had a nephew who was in a bad situation and needed help. Well, you might put up with him and let him stay at your place and clean up. You probably wouldn't sacrifice your work productivity just so he can also be in your company, most likely you would hold meaningful respect to your obligation to the company that you can't coddle your wastrel nephew.

    Patronage networks, like good old boy networks, exist mostly to help each other with people with similar status,etc. Business conspiracies in a way. They're not a replacement for the entire modern system and carry no such detail or cultural meaning.

    Ultimately, I do think it is a question of loyalty. The Indian system seems to have entirely accepted that loyalty is most natural to family and various religious/transcendent values, and quite valorizes hereditary. As Graeber notes, it doesn't really need a central government and often resists it.

    The Chinese literature has an ongoing struggle between the notion of loyalty to family versus loyalty to state, loyalty to righteousness, loyalty to king, etc,etc. Enormous reams of literature enjoy exploring the concept, and that's likely in no small part because as a state under centralized governance for much of its existence, including outright fascistic systems like Legalism, its a cultural with an accepted and essential role for a centralized state. And in that it valorizes meritocracy at least in theory, it denigrates hereditary. Peasants can rise to Emperors. Poor children can become palace officials through the Imperial Exam. In practice, this is rare, but with the morality of merit over hereditary is a strong cultural current.

    Replies: @sher singh, @AltanBakshi

  135. @Observation
    @Europe Europa

    The British seem to have a subgroup which is more assertive, though not as talkative. Think James Bond. Possibly descendents of Vikings, likely related to royalty.

    Replies: @JohnnyWalker123

    Upper-class British are seen as classy, refined, posh, and articulate.

    Being talkative isn’t helpful if you make yourself look like a fool, or if you come across as obnoxious.

  136. @DNS
    @Shortsword


    India’s diaspora stands for a large percent of the total amount of modern achievements by Indians. For Chinese the percent will be much lower. This at least partly explains the difference.
     
    Of the 4 Nobel prizes in hard sciences won by ethnic Indians (if we may be so bold as to accept there is indeed an "Indian ethnicity"), only one was won by an Indian in India - C.V. Raman in the days of the British Raj.

    Since then the winners have been Indians born in India but naturalised as American/British citizens.

    India also lacks its own indigenous behemoths like Huawei or Tencent, hence pride has to be drawn from the fact that a lot of CEOs of American multi-nationals seem to be Indian origin, notably of Google and Microsoft, which in turn drives the emigration fever amongst the middle class who see these CEOs as Indians who achieved the American Dream and also want a piece of the pie for themselves or their children.

    Replies: @Vishnugupta, @songbird

    Indian boys and girls talk about working at NASA or SpaceX. None of them talk about the Indian space program.

    • Replies: @Vishnugupta
    @songbird

    That's not completely true.ISRO is a much sought after recruiter on many top engineering campuses though nowadays they primarily recruit from their own engineering school.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Institute_of_Space_Science_and_Technology

    Students at this school rarely go abroad and are absorbed by ISRO and other defence labs responsible for things like the Agni 5 ICBM.

    It sort of resembles MIPT(Phystech) where students start working at base institutions right from their early undergraduate years.

  137. @Vishnugupta
    @DNS

    Other Indians in India have done Nobel Prize quality work SN Bose of Bose Einstein Statistics fame('Boson' is named after him);Meghnad Saha ( Saha Ionization equations) among others.

    Still the trend of emigrating to the west by the best and brightest has significantly declined and is likely to continue declining as opportunities are increasingly available in India and the West's relative decline is now visible live to this section of people.

    Anecdotally I would estimate the percentage of top tier STEM graduates permanently migrating to the west is around 50% down from well over 90% in the 1990s/early 2000s.

    Replies: @utu

    “Bose Einstein Statistics fame” – The only contribution of Einstein to Bose-Einstein statistics is that Einstein helped Bose to get published. Ten days after receiving letter from Bose Einstein wrote his own “improved’ version of it. And he got away with his shameless scavenging, however his luck ran out three years late when he tried to plagiarize 1926 Klein paper in 1927 when journal’s editor forced Einstein to add a disclaimer that everything was done before by Klein.

    https://www.unz.com/article/neurotic-leftists-mobbing-noah-carl-un-pc-cambridge-u-researcher-establishment-right-dithers/#comment-2711291

    Hr. H. Mandel macht mich darauf aufmerksam, dass die von mir hier mitgetcilten Ergbnisse nich neu sind. Der ganze Inhalt findet sich in der Arbeit vo O. Klein (Zeitschr. f. Physik 37, 12, 1926, S. 895). Man vergleiche ferner Fochs Arveit (Zeitschr. f. Physisk 39, 226, 1926).

    Einstein had access to Klein manusctopy of which he learned from Ehrenfest

    Introduction to Volume 15 of The Collected Papers of Albert Einstein. The Berlin Years: Writings and Correspondence June 1925 – May 1927
    https://arxiv.org/abs/1803.10662

    “Both Ehrenfest and Lorentz urged Einstein to come to Leyden and join their meetings with Klein. Einstein wrote that he had to finish some things before vacationing with his sons (Doc. 319), but asked to see Klein’s paper two and a half months after he had been first informed of it (Doc. 356). Most likely at Ehrenfest’s suggestion, Klein wrote to Einstein directly in late August 1926 (Doc. 363). He sent Einstein not only the manuscript of his paper (Klein, O. 1926), but also proposed how he wanted to develop the theory further. In particular, he explained his idea of assuming a periodicity of the fifth coordinate, averaging over it, and reconceptualizing Schrödinger’s wave function as a component of the five-dimensional metric by effectively dropping the sharpened cylinder condition and using the same version of the condition that Kaluza had used seven years earlier.

    • Agree: Vishnugupta
  138. @Daniel Chieh
    @reiner Tor

    Almost certainly cultural/genetic co-evolution rather than just soy-based diet or the like. From E.A. Ross, it seems had been pretty much typical even in the 1900s:

    Chinese children do not run, romp, and climb like ours. Their schoolboys are less riotous than white boys. Athletic sports are unknown. One recreates with kite flying, cricket fighting, gambling, chess, or letting off fire-crackers. To sip wine and cap verses in a shady arbor or a cool grotto by a lotus pond is a gentleman’s ideal of happiness. There is game aplenty in some parts, but no one shoots save the pot hunter with his rusty matchlock. No one bestrides a horse for pleasure. The placid mule is preferred to the horse and a gentle amble to a brisk gallop. When the mounted soldier gets up speed, the sight is a salve for sore eyes. Boxing would never occur to anyone as a sport. Fighting is rare and, far from being a manly exchange of blows, is waged girl-wise, with scratching and hair-pulling. The singing of the men is a nasal falsetto in strange contrast to the abdomiual bellow of Western males.
     

    E.A.Ross, The Changing Chinese

    https://www.unz.com/book/e_a_ross__the-changing-chinese/

    Search UI is horrible for Unz books, incidentally.

    Replies: @EldnahYm, @Bashibuzuk, @European-American

    Boxing would never occur to anyone as a sport. Fighting is rare and, far from being a manly exchange of blows, is waged girl-wise, with scratching and hair-pulling.

    [MORE]


    Also, Boxer Rebellion…

  139. @Europe Europa
    British people are traditionally stereotyped as reserved and not natural small talkers or very outgoing, not unlike the East Asian stereotype actually, yet British people are not underrepresented in the corporate world.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @Observation, @oliver elkington

    I would not say the British are reserved at all, you only have to go to a football match or to a pub on a saturday night to see that the British are generally a very sociable people, i think people get the idea of Brits being reserved from how Brits generally don’t strike up conversations much with strangers the way Latino’s or Italians may do though Northern Brits do so more often but that is more of a minority and in the less touristy parts, as a rule most of Southern England is very much about people being very sociable with their friends but less sociable outside of their friendship circle.

    • Agree: Coconuts
    • Replies: @JohnnyWalker123
    @oliver elkington

    British people are sociable after they've had a few pints of ale.

    Southern Euros and lots of nonwhites are sociable while sober, but mostly just to members of their extended families. If you're from outside the family, expect a distrusting and wary look. Warmth towards family, sociopathy and misanthropy towards outsiders. The culture of amoral familism.

    , @EldnahYm
    @oliver elkington

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PT0ay9u1gg4

  140. @Sean
    As I believe is a saying in China, the nail that sticks up gets hammered down.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyMsrgI7-_s
    Being forthright gets you thought of as an oddball in Chinese culture

    For example, as explained in Nobel Laureate Amartya Sen’s book The Argumentative Indian, there is a long tradition of argumentation and debate in India, where people “encounter masses of arguments and counterarguments spread over incessant debates and disputations”(p. 3)
     
    I knew there was a reason so few Jews marry Indian girls. Subservient East Asians will be the mothers of our unspeakable new overlords
    https://www.unz.com/isteve/coulter-asian-women-are-too-damn-hot/

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @solow, @solow

    Note the references to “Indian” in the following are to the taciturn American Indians, not the loquacious and argumentative Indians of South Asia. And of course the American Indians are related to the similarly reserved East Asian.

    http://avery.morrow.name/blog/2013/06/the-beauty-of-unturned-stones/

    I’m a big fan of the sayings of Confucius called the Analects. But what would an American think if you had him read this book?

    In a book I read a long time ago, someone offered an American scholar a copy of the Analects, and this is what he said:

    “It’s like the talk of an Indian chief!”

    When I read that book I belted out a deep laugh. This encapsulates the difference between East and West perfectly.

    Let’s translate the famous first line from that first paragraph of the Analects as if an Indian chief were saying it.

    “You must learn, children, and review what you have read. That is fun, see.”

    Suddenly, in the next line, a different topic entirely: “Friends — those are good. Especially, when a friend is coming to visit you from far away. There is nothing as good as that.”

    And then another: “Some people get angry when the world fails to acknowledge them. That is no good. Unemotional and calm under pressure — that is what we call character. Got it?”

    In the East, the Analects are like a sacred book. This book was mandatory reading in China from the early centuries B.C.E., and when it came to Japan through Korea in the 5th and 6th centuries, it was treasured.

    Here we see none of the logic of Aristotle, and none of the piercing rhetoric of the modern West. To put it bluntly, it’s like a a bunch of anecdotes about an old man, and it’s full of unclear sayings, leaps of logic, and blank spaces. The reader has to figure it out for himself, thinking, “Ah, that’s what he’s talking about, right?”

    But you can’t figure it out without guessing and filling in the blanks. The Analects is not carefully argued logic but a collection of brief and broken phrases. In every verse, you can only determine 50% of the meaning from what’s actually written there. The other 50% must be figured out by the reader himself. In other words, there is no reading without guessing.

    I don’t know whether this is related to the Analects or not, but Japan is full of these brief and broken phrases, not only in reading ancient texts but also in everyday conversation. You don’t rigorously explain everything you’re thinking to the person you talk with, but have them read your intentions, and you read theirs as well.

    Japanese people don’t like to argue. Even in the courtroom, laying out cold, precise logic to make your conversation partner fall to his feet and beg for forgiveness invites them to form a grudge, so it can only cause trouble later. So when we negotiate, we speak in brief and broken phrases like an Indian, and add a quiet little smile for breathing room. Someone who can do this well in Japan is said to have character or even worth, but a longtime foreign correspondent once warned me drunkenly over beer, “if you pulled that in America, they’d call you an idiot!”

    Fair enough: in Japan, if you attempted to demonstrate the strength of your opinion using endless layers of logic, you’d be the idiot! The listener already understands what you’re trying to prove.

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @solow

    There is an Algerian saying I heard from a friend: " A free man understands with a wink, a slave with a punch (to the face)."

    It is shorter and it rhymes in Algerian Arabic dialect.

    Westerners (wrongly ?) believe that the Reality can be understood and explained through rational investigation and logic. But a great number of people around the World do not think that way.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    , @songbird
    @solow

    Heard a fascinating phrase recently: American Confucianism.

    Missed the context, but I imagine it means the weird, anti-test, anti-meritocratic ideology which elevates blacks, gays, and females above all others and is so characteristic of America, if not exactly unique to it.

    Replies: @Coconuts

    , @Agathoklis
    @solow

    "To put it bluntly, it’s like a a bunch of anecdotes about an old man, and it’s full of unclear sayings, leaps of logic, and blank spaces. The reader has to figure it out for himself, thinking, “Ah, that’s what he’s talking about, right?”"

    I have never read much philosophy in Confucian philosophy.

  141. @Sean
    As I believe is a saying in China, the nail that sticks up gets hammered down.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyMsrgI7-_s
    Being forthright gets you thought of as an oddball in Chinese culture

    For example, as explained in Nobel Laureate Amartya Sen’s book The Argumentative Indian, there is a long tradition of argumentation and debate in India, where people “encounter masses of arguments and counterarguments spread over incessant debates and disputations”(p. 3)
     
    I knew there was a reason so few Jews marry Indian girls. Subservient East Asians will be the mothers of our unspeakable new overlords
    https://www.unz.com/isteve/coulter-asian-women-are-too-damn-hot/

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @solow, @solow

    Jack Ma is a Chinese Communist Party member. The CCP is a formal, hierarchical organization that has its internal rules and customs for seniority and power that aren’t circumvented by commercial success in the private sector. China is also a communist country in which the state is supposed to control the means of production, so a successful capitalist would have to be kept in check and suppressed at some point.

    Jack Ma isn’t just an oddball. He looks like an alien from outer space. His bulbous forehead is too big for his face, and it looks like his forehead is squishing his face from above:

  142. @solow
    @Sean

    Note the references to "Indian" in the following are to the taciturn American Indians, not the loquacious and argumentative Indians of South Asia. And of course the American Indians are related to the similarly reserved East Asian.

    http://avery.morrow.name/blog/2013/06/the-beauty-of-unturned-stones/


    I’m a big fan of the sayings of Confucius called the Analects. But what would an American think if you had him read this book?

    In a book I read a long time ago, someone offered an American scholar a copy of the Analects, and this is what he said:

    “It’s like the talk of an Indian chief!”

    When I read that book I belted out a deep laugh. This encapsulates the difference between East and West perfectly.

    Let’s translate the famous first line from that first paragraph of the Analects as if an Indian chief were saying it.

    “You must learn, children, and review what you have read. That is fun, see.”

    Suddenly, in the next line, a different topic entirely: “Friends — those are good. Especially, when a friend is coming to visit you from far away. There is nothing as good as that.”

    And then another: “Some people get angry when the world fails to acknowledge them. That is no good. Unemotional and calm under pressure — that is what we call character. Got it?”

    In the East, the Analects are like a sacred book. This book was mandatory reading in China from the early centuries B.C.E., and when it came to Japan through Korea in the 5th and 6th centuries, it was treasured.

    Here we see none of the logic of Aristotle, and none of the piercing rhetoric of the modern West. To put it bluntly, it’s like a a bunch of anecdotes about an old man, and it’s full of unclear sayings, leaps of logic, and blank spaces. The reader has to figure it out for himself, thinking, “Ah, that’s what he’s talking about, right?”

    But you can’t figure it out without guessing and filling in the blanks. The Analects is not carefully argued logic but a collection of brief and broken phrases. In every verse, you can only determine 50% of the meaning from what’s actually written there. The other 50% must be figured out by the reader himself. In other words, there is no reading without guessing.

    I don’t know whether this is related to the Analects or not, but Japan is full of these brief and broken phrases, not only in reading ancient texts but also in everyday conversation. You don’t rigorously explain everything you’re thinking to the person you talk with, but have them read your intentions, and you read theirs as well.

    Japanese people don’t like to argue. Even in the courtroom, laying out cold, precise logic to make your conversation partner fall to his feet and beg for forgiveness invites them to form a grudge, so it can only cause trouble later. So when we negotiate, we speak in brief and broken phrases like an Indian, and add a quiet little smile for breathing room. Someone who can do this well in Japan is said to have character or even worth, but a longtime foreign correspondent once warned me drunkenly over beer, “if you pulled that in America, they’d call you an idiot!”

    Fair enough: in Japan, if you attempted to demonstrate the strength of your opinion using endless layers of logic, you’d be the idiot! The listener already understands what you’re trying to prove.
     

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @songbird, @Agathoklis

    There is an Algerian saying I heard from a friend: ” A free man understands with a wink, a slave with a punch (to the face).”

    It is shorter and it rhymes in Algerian Arabic dialect.

    Westerners (wrongly ?) believe that the Reality can be understood and explained through rational investigation and logic. But a great number of people around the World do not think that way.

    • Thanks: sher singh
    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @Bashibuzuk


    Westerners (wrongly ?) believe that the Reality can be understood and explained through rational investigation and logic. But a great number of people around the World do not think that way.
     
    Sadly even most westerners belong to that "great number of people." What you are describing is not a particularly Western phenomenon. Christianity is extremely devotional faith and... oh well...
  143. @solow
    @Sean

    Note the references to "Indian" in the following are to the taciturn American Indians, not the loquacious and argumentative Indians of South Asia. And of course the American Indians are related to the similarly reserved East Asian.

    http://avery.morrow.name/blog/2013/06/the-beauty-of-unturned-stones/


    I’m a big fan of the sayings of Confucius called the Analects. But what would an American think if you had him read this book?

    In a book I read a long time ago, someone offered an American scholar a copy of the Analects, and this is what he said:

    “It’s like the talk of an Indian chief!”

    When I read that book I belted out a deep laugh. This encapsulates the difference between East and West perfectly.

    Let’s translate the famous first line from that first paragraph of the Analects as if an Indian chief were saying it.

    “You must learn, children, and review what you have read. That is fun, see.”

    Suddenly, in the next line, a different topic entirely: “Friends — those are good. Especially, when a friend is coming to visit you from far away. There is nothing as good as that.”

    And then another: “Some people get angry when the world fails to acknowledge them. That is no good. Unemotional and calm under pressure — that is what we call character. Got it?”

    In the East, the Analects are like a sacred book. This book was mandatory reading in China from the early centuries B.C.E., and when it came to Japan through Korea in the 5th and 6th centuries, it was treasured.

    Here we see none of the logic of Aristotle, and none of the piercing rhetoric of the modern West. To put it bluntly, it’s like a a bunch of anecdotes about an old man, and it’s full of unclear sayings, leaps of logic, and blank spaces. The reader has to figure it out for himself, thinking, “Ah, that’s what he’s talking about, right?”

    But you can’t figure it out without guessing and filling in the blanks. The Analects is not carefully argued logic but a collection of brief and broken phrases. In every verse, you can only determine 50% of the meaning from what’s actually written there. The other 50% must be figured out by the reader himself. In other words, there is no reading without guessing.

    I don’t know whether this is related to the Analects or not, but Japan is full of these brief and broken phrases, not only in reading ancient texts but also in everyday conversation. You don’t rigorously explain everything you’re thinking to the person you talk with, but have them read your intentions, and you read theirs as well.

    Japanese people don’t like to argue. Even in the courtroom, laying out cold, precise logic to make your conversation partner fall to his feet and beg for forgiveness invites them to form a grudge, so it can only cause trouble later. So when we negotiate, we speak in brief and broken phrases like an Indian, and add a quiet little smile for breathing room. Someone who can do this well in Japan is said to have character or even worth, but a longtime foreign correspondent once warned me drunkenly over beer, “if you pulled that in America, they’d call you an idiot!”

    Fair enough: in Japan, if you attempted to demonstrate the strength of your opinion using endless layers of logic, you’d be the idiot! The listener already understands what you’re trying to prove.
     

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @songbird, @Agathoklis

    Heard a fascinating phrase recently: American Confucianism.

    Missed the context, but I imagine it means the weird, anti-test, anti-meritocratic ideology which elevates blacks, gays, and females above all others and is so characteristic of America, if not exactly unique to it.

    • Replies: @Coconuts
    @songbird

    I wouldn't be surprised.

    It is interesting that the writer of the blog references Aristotle, but not thinkers like Kant, Marx or Nietszche. They seem to be much more influential, and foundational, to present day Western ethical thinking than Aristotle. The blog post would have become edgier if they had done that.

    Replies: @Sean, @songbird

  144. @songbird
    @DNS

    Indian boys and girls talk about working at NASA or SpaceX. None of them talk about the Indian space program.

    Replies: @Vishnugupta

    That’s not completely true.ISRO is a much sought after recruiter on many top engineering campuses though nowadays they primarily recruit from their own engineering school.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Institute_of_Space_Science_and_Technology

    Students at this school rarely go abroad and are absorbed by ISRO and other defence labs responsible for things like the Agni 5 ICBM.

    It sort of resembles MIPT(Phystech) where students start working at base institutions right from their early undergraduate years.

    • Thanks: songbird, Rattus Norwegius
  145. @Ludwig
    @Beckow

    Since you chose to engage:


    A lot of what you wrote is a projection of what you think others may think, not really what they wrote. The talk of bubbles and 19th century is a classical straw-man argument: because one doesn’t want his society overrun by tens of millions migrants from the Third World doesn’t at all mean that they want to restore 1888 or have normal inter-cultural relations with normal people from different cultures – in numbers that have always existed and always will.
     
    You seem paranoid about being whatever pristine society you think exists in your own mind, being “overrun” by the “Third world”.

    Firstly, you fit the archetype of bubble ignorance painting a broad brush over what you claim as the “Third world” which is essentially based on current development standards and which has changed through history. For you the horror of anyone from the Third World is dark, diseased migrants carrying the plague apparently (as per a highly ignorant and revealing post where your response to my talking of highly educated Indian Americans was “But India has the plague” which was not only untrue, but even if it were true is a complete non sequitur.)

    Secondly, lumping together all the myriad nationalities across the “Third World” and the different types of migrants into one type is further proof of your absolute inability to be rational and knowledgeable outside your narrow field of expertise (and even narrower mindset).

    Take India: To travel out from India requires mostly planes unlike African or Middle Eastern refugees into Europe, or Latin American refugees into the US who migrated across land en mass.

    The bulk of Indian Americans migrated legally across a few different channels:

    A) highly educated ones that come for studies and remain and/or executives at top positions (one can include other fields like actors/sports stars or the visa category for “highly accomplished immigrants” [paraphrasing] which speeds up the immigration process. Sundar Pichai and Satya Nadella are examples of the former. The bulk of top executives across the US have similar profiles as are many scientists, doctors and so on. (Yes, like with every situation there are grifters, fakes etc but on the whole like the hordes of immigrants before them including many European ones over the centuries, they have allowed the US to keep a technological and economic edge.). These types are mostly from higher castes in India who have had the opportunity and culture of seeking higher education. They advance through sheer merit and hard work and are represented in the group Karlin mentions above.

    B) consultants who come on temporary visas for work and find permanent work visas. These are criticized for depressing wages of existing Americans. Incidentally from my observation very few of these rise to the top of the food chain since by the time they get their permanent residency they are too old to advance beyond a certain level. Meanwhile US companies like these workers since they help profits and keep them competitive.

    C) small business owners: they are the mom and pop shops, the bodegas, the motels etc. Many of these come from a few locations in India like the state of Gujarat which is known for hard working business minded, closely knit communities.

    D) marriages/chain migration: application for immediate family members. Indians - like many Asians - have a culture of taking care of their parents and even those who come are taken care of by the family and not thrown in the streets to be taken care of the welfare state. Meanwhile chain migration of siblings etc has slowed since the visa process for this category takes decades and as India’s economic opportunities have improved, less desire to make the trip.

    E) lottery/political refugees: this is relatively rare. There are some cases of people claiming to flee persecution (eg Sikhs) but they are relatively minor. Lottery for Indians I believe is non-existent (along with other nationalities who have significant presence in the US).

    What you think of hordes of Indians, those poor masses you see from your bubble, mostly make it to the Gulf countries of at all where they work as indentured labor.

    Incidentally the Gulf countries also take in highly educated Indians and nationalities from everywhere. Dubai for example realized that it cannot rely on an oil economy and in addition to poor labor, has invested in attracting technical talent from everywhere. So in Dubai, a lot of hotel executives, financiers, doctors I’ve encountered are Indians (and some Pakistani esp doctors); I also know of at least one Indian American AI expert who was offered a crazy salary to put together a team in Abu Dhabi to advance AI technologies. As evidenced by its recent patch up with Israel, the Gulf countries - while maintaining the primacy of their monarchies and Arab culture - are casting a wide net to attract too talent regardless of origin (I’ve met Nigerian financiers in Dubai as well for example.)


    There are intelligent Indians and India has 400+ languages: but that is irrelevant to the point that large numbers of Indians who are neither particularly intelligent nor needed are migrating to the West. There are 1.5 billion of them, how many do you want to come? And why should young professionals be displaced by them? Because you think they are “smarter”, or because Bill Gates likes them because they are cheaper? That Steve Ballmer is an idiot changes nothing, there are idiots of all nationalities. The Indian guy running Citi a few years back was not exactly a genius.

    Using a few names – as you do – is also completely irrelevant. This is about large numbers, not about a few over-achievers. When you go there you are again simply trying to avoid a discussion because you sense that you would lose the argument.

     

    You are contradicting yourself and in your blind bigorty don’t even realize it. India has 1.4 billion people and say even 1% are intelligent/over achievers as opposed to say 10% of Russians, that’s about the same number of intelligent people, say 14 million people. If you look at the distribution of Indian Americans in the US, these overachievers are the ones who are overwhelmingly represented there. Indian Americans are - on average - objectively at the top end of wealth, academic achievement etc. One example is the paper that Karlin cites in his thread.

    This is why talking of the 1.4 billion people is irrelevant when we are talking about a subset of them who are not necessarily representative of the larger group. For example, by causal observation in NY (or in Dubai or many places in Europe for that matter), Slavic women seem over represented in one particular profession. This does not necessarily mean that this is the general distribution back in Russia/Ukraine/Belarus.

    So clearly - like most immigrants - these Indians are not representative of their countries. So talking about the 1.4 billion Indians - as if they are one undifferentiated mass - is not just ignorant but irrelevant. It’s talking about what kind of talent you want whether it is from Germany, India or New Guinea.

    The fundamental problem you have is that while you can expound in some detail about different East European nationalities and their complex histories, once you see an “Indian” your pre-frontal cortex shuts down and your limbic brain takes over (like implying that Satya Nadella became CEO of Microsoft because of “cheap labor”). You seem to conflate Indians in US or even Europe with the desperate hordes escaping poverty across land borders. They are not.


    You argue that if one criticises others for self-serving or other behaviors, he should in turn not show a preference for his own group. Ideally. But in a world we live in that is nonsense. Trying to be objective is intellectually nice, but in practise it doesn’t work. It is another technique to disempower smarter people by appealing to their sense of fair-play. For me it is enough that we on our side are ‘fairer”, not perfect by any standard, but fairer. We listen to their arguments, they don’t listen to ours. There is no point in dying on that hill, nobody would remember it.
     
    I am criticizing those like you who accuse Indians specifically of being groupist - and falsely claiming their achievement in the US is primally a result of this - of taking a basic human trait and making it specifically about Indians. I have no problem with say Russians hanging out with other Russians, Indians with a Indians (and sub groupings therein), Chinese with Chinese, Italian Americans with Italian Americans etc. We gravitate towards people with whom we have shared culture/passions. I enjoy this group because even when I disagree with many points, there is usually some effort towards rational, intellectual discussion which I have a passion for and learn from. (There is also a lot of irrational discussion which I mostly ignore except in cases like this).

    But let me alleviate your concern in one regard at least when it comes to Russia. As far as I can tell, the opinion of Russia from the elites to the general public in India, Indonesia etc is mostly formed by Western opinion which means they think Russia is a cold, authoritarian place where Putin and the KGB pretty much tell you what to do, the men are either criminals or drunk on vodka and the women - well they are known for that profession which is available in most countries outside Russia anyways. So no one is clamoring to get into Russia. Poor migrants look to the Gulf countries to repatriate money; educated ones either go West or increasingly remain at home to join thriving economies. (Indonesia is 7th by PPP).

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @DNS, @Pumblechook, @Anatoly Karlin, @Beckow

    You lost me at “pristine” and “paranoia“. Quite a jump there, isn’t it? Maybe you a South Asian, or family, or the usual Anglo twit with nostalgia for Raj. In any case, you went all over the map with bizarre projections that on their face are nonsensical. I will not repeat what others here responded to you – they said it better – but you lost the argument.

    Having an Indian cheering section betrays what this is all about – they know they are on thin ice. There is no rational reason why millions of Indians should be allowed to migrate to the West, or to E Europe. They are not European in any sense of that word, they are not needed, and they do work that locals could do. Pure parasitic migration combined with cheap business types wanting to cut costs.

    Small points:
    – I was generous with my 1.5 billion that you found offensive; there are actually close to 2 billion South Asians, there is no difference with Bangladeshis or Pakistanis.
    – My concern has nothing to with Russia. I am talking about CE Europe – part of EU – where the surplus Indians (and others) that West foolishly imported could eventually end up. We don’t want them and have no desire to deal with their obsessive victim mentality and accusations of “racism”. If you want them in Paris or London, your choice.

    Maybe you just like chicken tikka massala (I do too), but try to read what others say before attacking them mindlessly.

  146. @oliver elkington
    @Europe Europa

    I would not say the British are reserved at all, you only have to go to a football match or to a pub on a saturday night to see that the British are generally a very sociable people, i think people get the idea of Brits being reserved from how Brits generally don't strike up conversations much with strangers the way Latino's or Italians may do though Northern Brits do so more often but that is more of a minority and in the less touristy parts, as a rule most of Southern England is very much about people being very sociable with their friends but less sociable outside of their friendship circle.

    Replies: @JohnnyWalker123, @EldnahYm

    British people are sociable after they’ve had a few pints of ale.

    Southern Euros and lots of nonwhites are sociable while sober, but mostly just to members of their extended families. If you’re from outside the family, expect a distrusting and wary look. Warmth towards family, sociopathy and misanthropy towards outsiders. The culture of amoral familism.

    • Agree: oliver elkington
  147. @songbird
    @solow

    Heard a fascinating phrase recently: American Confucianism.

    Missed the context, but I imagine it means the weird, anti-test, anti-meritocratic ideology which elevates blacks, gays, and females above all others and is so characteristic of America, if not exactly unique to it.

    Replies: @Coconuts

    I wouldn’t be surprised.

    It is interesting that the writer of the blog references Aristotle, but not thinkers like Kant, Marx or Nietszche. They seem to be much more influential, and foundational, to present day Western ethical thinking than Aristotle. The blog post would have become edgier if they had done that.

    • Replies: @Sean
    @Coconuts

    Kant said act done from purely moral reasoning and against inclination shine like diamonds even if the correct moral reasoner encounters nothing but disaster as a result of the pure act. That is stupid, the "moral" of a story is that the right thing to do works. Aristotle held that theoretical reason gives no commands, but practical reason is imperative. Most people would act in accordance with Aristotle even if they pretend it is Kant.

    , @songbird
    @Coconuts

    I guess the blog was quoting an author born in 1923. Not to say that the modern ideological foundation of the West wasn't coming into being some 20-30 years later, but I suppose it would have been much harder to understand that from Japan, at that time. Arguably, the people in the West who understood things at the time were all eccentric people, like Francis Parker Yowkey.

  148. @solow
    @Sean

    Note the references to "Indian" in the following are to the taciturn American Indians, not the loquacious and argumentative Indians of South Asia. And of course the American Indians are related to the similarly reserved East Asian.

    http://avery.morrow.name/blog/2013/06/the-beauty-of-unturned-stones/


    I’m a big fan of the sayings of Confucius called the Analects. But what would an American think if you had him read this book?

    In a book I read a long time ago, someone offered an American scholar a copy of the Analects, and this is what he said:

    “It’s like the talk of an Indian chief!”

    When I read that book I belted out a deep laugh. This encapsulates the difference between East and West perfectly.

    Let’s translate the famous first line from that first paragraph of the Analects as if an Indian chief were saying it.

    “You must learn, children, and review what you have read. That is fun, see.”

    Suddenly, in the next line, a different topic entirely: “Friends — those are good. Especially, when a friend is coming to visit you from far away. There is nothing as good as that.”

    And then another: “Some people get angry when the world fails to acknowledge them. That is no good. Unemotional and calm under pressure — that is what we call character. Got it?”

    In the East, the Analects are like a sacred book. This book was mandatory reading in China from the early centuries B.C.E., and when it came to Japan through Korea in the 5th and 6th centuries, it was treasured.

    Here we see none of the logic of Aristotle, and none of the piercing rhetoric of the modern West. To put it bluntly, it’s like a a bunch of anecdotes about an old man, and it’s full of unclear sayings, leaps of logic, and blank spaces. The reader has to figure it out for himself, thinking, “Ah, that’s what he’s talking about, right?”

    But you can’t figure it out without guessing and filling in the blanks. The Analects is not carefully argued logic but a collection of brief and broken phrases. In every verse, you can only determine 50% of the meaning from what’s actually written there. The other 50% must be figured out by the reader himself. In other words, there is no reading without guessing.

    I don’t know whether this is related to the Analects or not, but Japan is full of these brief and broken phrases, not only in reading ancient texts but also in everyday conversation. You don’t rigorously explain everything you’re thinking to the person you talk with, but have them read your intentions, and you read theirs as well.

    Japanese people don’t like to argue. Even in the courtroom, laying out cold, precise logic to make your conversation partner fall to his feet and beg for forgiveness invites them to form a grudge, so it can only cause trouble later. So when we negotiate, we speak in brief and broken phrases like an Indian, and add a quiet little smile for breathing room. Someone who can do this well in Japan is said to have character or even worth, but a longtime foreign correspondent once warned me drunkenly over beer, “if you pulled that in America, they’d call you an idiot!”

    Fair enough: in Japan, if you attempted to demonstrate the strength of your opinion using endless layers of logic, you’d be the idiot! The listener already understands what you’re trying to prove.
     

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @songbird, @Agathoklis

    “To put it bluntly, it’s like a a bunch of anecdotes about an old man, and it’s full of unclear sayings, leaps of logic, and blank spaces. The reader has to figure it out for himself, thinking, “Ah, that’s what he’s talking about, right?””

    I have never read much philosophy in Confucian philosophy.

  149. @Daniel Chieh
    @Sean

    Jack Ma is fine, though perhaps wiser not to shoot off his mouth at random.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-56448688

    There are societies where it's better to ask forgiveness than permission. China isn't one.

    That's a Japanese saying, not Chinese, btw.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @Sean

    Coco Liu and Lulu Yilun Chen
    Bloomberg
    16 Mar 2021
    |
    Business and Economy
    Bloomberg
    China wants Jack Ma’s Alibaba to shed media assets: Report
    The government is reportedly concerned about the technology giant’s influence over public opinion, especially on social media.

  150. @Daniel Chieh
    @Daniel Chieh

    He just did it for me!

    https://twitter.com/crimkadid/status/1265305840162082816

    Replies: @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms, @Svevlad

    doesn’t this fall into the water when you go back to the era before 1945 and especially so before the Meiji restoration?

    They were Balkan tier violent ffs.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    @Svevlad

    Just stare into the pure, guileless eyes of the Yamato Nadeshiko, think of the Rising Sun, and shut off your brain.

  151. @songbird
    @128

    Ulaanbaatar was one of the cities considered for the Trump-Kim summit, but they chose Singapore for the first one in 2018 and then Hanoi for the next one in 2019.

    But I think Mongolia has a development problem because it is landlocked.

    Replies: @Svevlad

    Not just landlocked, but it’s also probably one of the downright crappiest pieces of real estate on the planet.

    It’s basically Siberia but also Kazakhstan, with all the drawbacks and none of the advantages.

    The Gobi makes a natural borderland. The USSR should have annexed the place, and kept it in Russia.

  152. @Beckow
    @Almost Missouri


    ...having a prominent dark-ish South Asian relieves them of the burden of finding an equal African.
     
    That's about half of it. African blacks also benefit - descendants of West African slave traders who sold their kin to whites are rewarded in modern America, blacker is better.

    A strong factor in Indian career climbing is shameless nepotism and tribalism. Indians are self-serving, if one of them is in a position to help kin, or distant kin, or even sell it to them, they will do it. It is their culture and they have been at this for millennia. Competence is only remotely related to it, Bible says: "many are called, but few are chosen".

    Asians are family oriented, but don't have the brazen self-serving assertiveness of Indians to take apart any institution for personal benefit. Whites are lone wolves - raised to be self-reliant and objective and often suffering from liberal dementia. And women love non-threatening dark people like Indians.

    Once a tribal group with no scruples was allowed into the West, they were bound to gradually take it over. This is only the beginning, there are about 1.5 billion waiting to take the journey and boss around clueless white losers who live in a mythical make-believe land of everybody for himself, and real men solve their own problems.... Kamala-lady looks like the future: dark-skin preachy opportunists given a hand on the way up...

    Replies: @Svevlad

    So then, the eternal Balkanoid is the last hope for the white man?

  153. @Daniel Chieh
    @Mr. Hack

    You should not access here from work.

    You will not have a chance to justify yourself, and even if you do, "I hang out with racists" is not something you want in you HR record. All your access records at work are logged, and any evidence of racism can fall under zero tolerance rules, and you'll find yourself suddenly locked out of office.

    Do not make my mistake. The kind host of this blog can attest this happened, if you want to know.

    Do not do this to yourself.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    I’m sorry to hear about your misfortune at work. It looks like Orwell’s 1984 is really here now. I wish you better luck in finding new employment – thanks for the warning.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    @Mr. Hack

    That was awhile ago. Thankfully, I'm fine now.

    Do take care of yourself too.

    The key to understanding this is that it's less wokeness than it is an excellent excuse to get rid of someone you don't want and replace it with someone of your choosing. There's only so much budget in your world.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

  154. @Mr. Hack
    @Daniel Chieh

    I'm sorry to hear about your misfortune at work. It looks like Orwell's 1984 is really here now. I wish you better luck in finding new employment - thanks for the warning.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    That was awhile ago. Thankfully, I’m fine now.

    Do take care of yourself too.

    The key to understanding this is that it’s less wokeness than it is an excellent excuse to get rid of someone you don’t want and replace it with someone of your choosing. There’s only so much budget in your world.

    • Agree: sher singh
    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @Daniel Chieh

    Wokeness is also just a way to replace the Western middle class with the globalized proletariat. There's only so much ressources in our world.

  155. @Coconuts
    @songbird

    I wouldn't be surprised.

    It is interesting that the writer of the blog references Aristotle, but not thinkers like Kant, Marx or Nietszche. They seem to be much more influential, and foundational, to present day Western ethical thinking than Aristotle. The blog post would have become edgier if they had done that.

    Replies: @Sean, @songbird

    Kant said act done from purely moral reasoning and against inclination shine like diamonds even if the correct moral reasoner encounters nothing but disaster as a result of the pure act. That is stupid, the “moral” of a story is that the right thing to do works. Aristotle held that theoretical reason gives no commands, but practical reason is imperative. Most people would act in accordance with Aristotle even if they pretend it is Kant.

    • Agree: Coconuts
  156. @Daniel Chieh
    @Mr. Hack

    That was awhile ago. Thankfully, I'm fine now.

    Do take care of yourself too.

    The key to understanding this is that it's less wokeness than it is an excellent excuse to get rid of someone you don't want and replace it with someone of your choosing. There's only so much budget in your world.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

    Wokeness is also just a way to replace the Western middle class with the globalized proletariat. There’s only so much ressources in our world.

  157. @Shortsword
    @Anatoly Karlin

    India's diaspora stands for a large percent of the total amount of modern achievements by Indians. For Chinese the percent will be much lower. This at least partly explains the difference.

    Replies: @DNS, @Dmitry

    Indians are in a very strange position, as they are nationality with a lot of historical intellectual achievements (and I find it possible to believe that there could be a future intellectual renaissance there one day), but which are attached to one of the world’s poorest and most dysfunctional countries.

    While Chinese have very few intellectual achievements still today, but on the other hand China is a rapidly industrializing, second world country, which seems to be on a normal development pathway now, after their disastrous experiences in the 19th and 20th centuries (although the 21st century’s economic development, not without some dysfunctional aspects, such as flooding the world with low quality consumer products).

    Chinese are nowadays behaving somewhat like a normal nationality, matched to their country’s economic development level. By comparison, Indians are eccentrically generating experts who are winning awards in 21st century computer science, while their country is still in a position of being unable to introduce 19th century things like sewage systems and running water.

    If you enjoy walking videos on YouTube, you will notice that Indian cities superficially often look worse than African ones.

    So Indians a contradictory situation of nowadays their researchers starting to win awards in topics that we would associated with advanced economies (e.g. like distributed computing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dijkstra_Prize )

    Meanwhile, Indian urban life can sometimes still look like it is somewhere in the early 19th century at best:

    By comparison, centres of major Chinese cities are starting to look like late-20th century places already, that would match advanced societies. In terms of the advancement of the urban environment, there superficially seems like there currently can be up to a century of difference between China and India.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Dmitry


    currently can be up to a century of difference between China and India.
     
    Well I meant to write, more than a century.

    For example, an award winning scholar in American universities Raj Reddy ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raj_Reddy ) studied in Chennai. Aside from automobiles, I'm not sure even which century his native city resembles:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-l49-2HZlC4

    , @Daniel Chieh
    @Dmitry


    By comparison, Indians are eccentrically generating experts who are winning awards in 21st century computer science, while their country is still in a position of being unable to introduce 19th century things like sewage systems and running water.
     
    Despite having a population of less than tenth of India's, Russia and EE has not only the majority of top competitive coders, but has n'th time more top coders than India, where n equals infinity.

    https://www.technologyreview.com/2012/08/06/184621/in-the-olympics-of-algorithms-a-russian-keeps-winning-gold/

    https://www.quora.com/Why-do-people-from-Eastern-Europe-and-China-now-dominate-coding-competitions

    https://www.quora.com/Why-does-India-have-no-red-coders-on-Topcoder-or-Codeforces

  158. @Dmitry
    @Shortsword

    Indians are in a very strange position, as they are nationality with a lot of historical intellectual achievements (and I find it possible to believe that there could be a future intellectual renaissance there one day), but which are attached to one of the world's poorest and most dysfunctional countries.

    While Chinese have very few intellectual achievements still today, but on the other hand China is a rapidly industrializing, second world country, which seems to be on a normal development pathway now, after their disastrous experiences in the 19th and 20th centuries (although the 21st century's economic development, not without some dysfunctional aspects, such as flooding the world with low quality consumer products).

    Chinese are nowadays behaving somewhat like a normal nationality, matched to their country's economic development level. By comparison, Indians are eccentrically generating experts who are winning awards in 21st century computer science, while their country is still in a position of being unable to introduce 19th century things like sewage systems and running water.

    -

    If you enjoy walking videos on YouTube, you will notice that Indian cities superficially often look worse than African ones.

    So Indians a contradictory situation of nowadays their researchers starting to win awards in topics that we would associated with advanced economies (e.g. like distributed computing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dijkstra_Prize )

    Meanwhile, Indian urban life can sometimes still look like it is somewhere in the early 19th century at best:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSZ1SShTDFY


    By comparison, centres of major Chinese cities are starting to look like late-20th century places already, that would match advanced societies. In terms of the advancement of the urban environment, there superficially seems like there currently can be up to a century of difference between China and India.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPAHDDALrjI

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Daniel Chieh

    currently can be up to a century of difference between China and India.

    Well I meant to write, more than a century.

    For example, an award winning scholar in American universities Raj Reddy ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raj_Reddy ) studied in Chennai. Aside from automobiles, I’m not sure even which century his native city resembles:

  159. @JohnnyWalker123
    @Daniel Chieh

    Aren't the Chinese pretty nepotistic and ethnocentric too?

    How does Chinese 'guanxi' compare to the Indian caste system?

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    Comparison is actually almost completely inapplicable. The best analogy is that it is like the comparison of a RV with a bike; they are similar insofar as they both can provide mobility, so both caste and guanxi are forms of social bonds.

    However, even to my third-party and thus limited understanding, it was pretty evident that caste provides a rich context and guidance to the question of life, and even without any formal regulation, can inform one in life throughout. For a start, it can help determine your name. I was working with programmers at one point, and they mentioned one familiar could guess that they were from Kshatriya(warrior caste) from surnames and first names which were usually expected to be something “fierce.” A name is just one thing but as you can imagine, one’s name has influence in one’s life, especially when it is also heavily associated with cultural underpinnings and even without any formal controls, can guide one in life.

    In my hiring capacity, it was also not uncommon that people would try to hire others from their village even if they weren’t qualified, and then cover for them. There was some complex reasoning to this, but I agree with my boss at the time it was just best not to even try to understand, and just attempt to put a stop to it.

    The thing is, one has to realize that this is genuine mutual aid – it isn’t just selfishness, its some form of deep cultural bound that permits obligations to form, even at self-sacrifice. But one thing notably in this is the question of loyalty: there’s a strong sense of loyalty to family, and to various cultural or religious concept. I don’t really see any sense of loyalty to the company(and if there is, its muted at best) and it may not be so much to the concept of a nation at all.

    The thing is, caste is so rich and extensive that it can basically substitute as a replacement for the entire modern economy. I’ll quote from David Gaeber here:

    Foreign visitors were later to be awed by the self-sufficiency of the traditional Indian village, with its elaborate system of landowning castes, farmers, and such “service castes” as barbers, smiths, tanners, drummers, and washermen, all arranged in hierarchical order, each seen as making its own unique and necessary contribution to their little society, all of it typically operating entirely without the use of metal currency. It was only possible for those reduced to the status of Sudras and Untouchables to have a chance of accepting their lowly position because the exaction of local landlords was, again, on nothing like the same scale as that under earlier governments—under which villagers had to support cities of upwards of a million people—and because the village community became an effective means of holding the state and its representatives at least partially at bay.

    Guanxi is nothing akin to that. Its basically what is networking with some added ritual and familial component. For example, if your father’s high school friend had a son who needed a job, he might ask your dad to help him. Your dad might ask you to help him, then, and if you thought that the kid wasn’t too terrible, you might give him a chance.

    Its basically what the West would call a patronage network or an “old boy’s network,” although there’s some Chinese alterations to it. As the Chinese traditionally saw the family as the lowest unit of political organization, guanxi is primarily a system of creating fictive kinship. Through it, and the ritual of mutual gifting(mutual indebthood) and frequent meals, a person who is not family is ritually considered as if he is family, and therefore treated with additional consideration. But its pretty limited, as it might be even with blood family – say if you had a nephew who was in a bad situation and needed help. Well, you might put up with him and let him stay at your place and clean up. You probably wouldn’t sacrifice your work productivity just so he can also be in your company, most likely you would hold meaningful respect to your obligation to the company that you can’t coddle your wastrel nephew.

    Patronage networks, like good old boy networks, exist mostly to help each other with people with similar status,etc. Business conspiracies in a way. They’re not a replacement for the entire modern system and carry no such detail or cultural meaning.

    Ultimately, I do think it is a question of loyalty. The Indian system seems to have entirely accepted that loyalty is most natural to family and various religious/transcendent values, and quite valorizes hereditary. As Graeber notes, it doesn’t really need a central government and often resists it.

    The Chinese literature has an ongoing struggle between the notion of loyalty to family versus loyalty to state, loyalty to righteousness, loyalty to king, etc,etc. Enormous reams of literature enjoy exploring the concept, and that’s likely in no small part because as a state under centralized governance for much of its existence, including outright fascistic systems like Legalism, its a cultural with an accepted and essential role for a centralized state. And in that it valorizes meritocracy at least in theory, it denigrates hereditary. Peasants can rise to Emperors. Poor children can become palace officials through the Imperial Exam. In practice, this is rare, but with the morality of merit over hereditary is a strong cultural current.

    • Thanks: JohnnyWalker123
    • Replies: @sher singh
    @Daniel Chieh


    In my hiring capacity, it was also not uncommon that people would try to hire others from their village
     
    Village republic, Janapad; with a Sardar or Sarpanch (Chieftan; slang for Turbaned Sikh) as head.
    Elected, since Vedic era.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mx03kaVIoYE
    , @AltanBakshi
    @Daniel Chieh

    Indian caste system is utter idiocy, someone who has never been a warrior or served in army is Kshatriya, even though he's a businessman and no one in his family has fought in centuries. Someone is brahmin even though he smokes and works as a taxi driver, it's just so idiotic and moronic that I have no word to describe it.


    "A brahmin is a brahmin because of what he does; a man who is not a brahmin is not a brahmin because of what he does.

    A farmer is a farmer because of what he does and a craftsman is a craftsman because of what he does.

    A merchant, a servant, a thief, a soldier, a priest or a king:
    each of them is what he is because of what he does.

    So the wise men see action as it has really come to be. They are proficient in the fruits of action and they are seers of dependent origination(pratītyasamutpāda).

    The world exists because of causal actions, all things are produced by causal actions and all beings are governed and bound by causal actions. They are fixed like the rolling wheel of a cart, fixed by the pin of its axle shaft.

    A brahmin is as result of self-restraint, wholesome living and self-control. This is the essence of Brahmin."

    -Buddha Shakyamuni

    (Does Buddha sound like a Native American chief?)

     

    Sorry to hear about your misfortune, I very well understand if you have some misgivings about Indians. Was the man who fired you a Gujarati by the way? Their merchant castes seem to be well adapted into Western doublespeak or newspeak environment.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @Jatt Aryaa

  160. @Svevlad
    @Daniel Chieh

    doesn't this fall into the water when you go back to the era before 1945 and especially so before the Meiji restoration?

    They were Balkan tier violent ffs.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    Just stare into the pure, guileless eyes of the Yamato Nadeshiko, think of the Rising Sun, and shut off your brain.

  161. @Dmitry
    @Shortsword

    Indians are in a very strange position, as they are nationality with a lot of historical intellectual achievements (and I find it possible to believe that there could be a future intellectual renaissance there one day), but which are attached to one of the world's poorest and most dysfunctional countries.

    While Chinese have very few intellectual achievements still today, but on the other hand China is a rapidly industrializing, second world country, which seems to be on a normal development pathway now, after their disastrous experiences in the 19th and 20th centuries (although the 21st century's economic development, not without some dysfunctional aspects, such as flooding the world with low quality consumer products).

    Chinese are nowadays behaving somewhat like a normal nationality, matched to their country's economic development level. By comparison, Indians are eccentrically generating experts who are winning awards in 21st century computer science, while their country is still in a position of being unable to introduce 19th century things like sewage systems and running water.

    -

    If you enjoy walking videos on YouTube, you will notice that Indian cities superficially often look worse than African ones.

    So Indians a contradictory situation of nowadays their researchers starting to win awards in topics that we would associated with advanced economies (e.g. like distributed computing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dijkstra_Prize )

    Meanwhile, Indian urban life can sometimes still look like it is somewhere in the early 19th century at best:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSZ1SShTDFY


    By comparison, centres of major Chinese cities are starting to look like late-20th century places already, that would match advanced societies. In terms of the advancement of the urban environment, there superficially seems like there currently can be up to a century of difference between China and India.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPAHDDALrjI

    Replies: @Dmitry, @Daniel Chieh

    By comparison, Indians are eccentrically generating experts who are winning awards in 21st century computer science, while their country is still in a position of being unable to introduce 19th century things like sewage systems and running water.

    Despite having a population of less than tenth of India’s, Russia and EE has not only the majority of top competitive coders, but has n’th time more top coders than India, where n equals infinity.

    https://www.technologyreview.com/2012/08/06/184621/in-the-olympics-of-algorithms-a-russian-keeps-winning-gold/

    https://www.quora.com/Why-do-people-from-Eastern-Europe-and-China-now-dominate-coding-competitions

    https://www.quora.com/Why-does-India-have-no-red-coders-on-Topcoder-or-Codeforces

  162. @oliver elkington
    @Europe Europa

    I would not say the British are reserved at all, you only have to go to a football match or to a pub on a saturday night to see that the British are generally a very sociable people, i think people get the idea of Brits being reserved from how Brits generally don't strike up conversations much with strangers the way Latino's or Italians may do though Northern Brits do so more often but that is more of a minority and in the less touristy parts, as a rule most of Southern England is very much about people being very sociable with their friends but less sociable outside of their friendship circle.

    Replies: @JohnnyWalker123, @EldnahYm

    • LOL: Blinky Bill
  163. @Ludwig
    One of the fascinating things about this blog is seeing how commentators who can otherwise intelligently delve into what happened in some small region three hundred years ago in Central Europe, are reduced to superficial, tribal idiots when talking about cultures outside Europe.

    For example, there are those who conflate achievement/behavior patterns of Indian Americans - themselves a stratified bunch across educational achievement, business acumen (influenced no doubt by caste/regional ethnicity back in India) - with India as a whole, and who have actually made the jaw dropping comments that high achieving people from a country (in this case India) should not be allowed in because apparently the country of origin is infested with cooties. This is the kind of thinking one would associate with babbling idiots but the same person can otherwise intelligently discuss the area of his expertise which lies entirely within Europe.

    This same person - and others such - also rail against the alleged tribalism and nepotism of Indian Americans as a reason for them making it, entirely ironically missing their own extreme tribalism - and deep ignorance - in making these comments.

    So one then is to believe that Sundar Pichai became head of Google because Larry Page, Sergei Brin, Eric Schmidt et al were crypto-Indians. Similarly with Satya Nadella who was personally groomed by Bill Gates and turned Microsoft around after the disastrous Steve Ballmer. And apparently scientists like these 12 Indians deeply involved in NASA Mars missions https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/other/meet-the-indians-on-the-mars-perseverance-team/ar-BB1e4aye got their jobs (and many accolades) simply because JPL is sone Indian stronghold (rather than one that attracts highly motivated, intelligent scientists worldwide. There are many other nationalities who also work at JPL).

    These same commentators would rail against Wokeism - which is identity politics run amok for the benefit of grifters and power hungry opportunists of all colors - but then apparently objective merit based achievements in the US - which they would otherwise support - in which both EA and SA (Indians) are over-represented is due to “nepotism”.

    Clearly family based businesses, like small shops or motels etc are “nepotistic” in the same way that any privately held organization - eg the Trump Organization - is nepotistic. (Even publicly owned businesses eg Ford, Walmart were nepotistic and indeed quite exclusionary to people of the wrong color for quite a while. THAT apparently is not nepotistic or tribal.)

    Meanwhile another prolific commentator replying to a interesting comment worth exploring on how apparently a Brahmin Indian American were upset about a child partnering with a Japanese American, missed the whole point by showing a picture of developed Japanese city and a destitute Indian community as if this same Brahmin family in the US would be delighted if their child married someone from that community instead. So “India” then is not represented as a multi-dimensional bell curve - as indeed every large grouping can be - but by one image.

    Reading this blog then has reinforced my observation about many people: that they can be highly intellectual and discerning about certain topics but fall back into primitive drooling tribalism and idiocy outside their topic of expertise. In other words, the logic, commitment to reason and inquiry they display in their area is cast aside in favor of their raw emotions and deep prejudices outside it.

    I’ve noticed this in RL where many acquaintances who are deep experts in their fields - even in hard fields like Physics, AI etc - end up believing the most inane, easily falsifiable and contradictory propaganda against say Russia displaying a complete lack of curiosity, intellectual rigor that they spent their professional lives steeped in. Russia to them is what the NYT/Western media tells them it is.

    Another observation I can make based on this blog alone is that, Karlin being a prominent exception, many Russian or pro-Russian commentators seem to live in a bubble formed circa the 19th century - or charitably the late 20th century - and horrified and bewildered about the world they find themselves in with all non-white, non-Christians suddenly polluting the views outside their bubbles. While these commentators can endlessly dissect the many communities among Europe - and divide them into 15,000 different strands of tribal origins and disputes that persist till today - the world outside it is evidently divided into only five or six groupings with no understanding or curiosity of the variety and deep histories within them. For example in the grouping of complex ethno-states called India, there are 400+ languages alone, with about 20 main ones spoken by tens of millions.

    Fortunately for Russia, it appears Putin & co - while strongly maintaining the ties to the past - have been ahead of many of their countrymen in realizing the future of Russia, rather than an imagined nostalgic glorious past, lies in greater ties not with the West - which is seeing its 500 years of hegemony being challenged amidst their own internal divisions - but with the rest of the wide World with all its myriad communities as history remorselessly marches on.

    Replies: @Thulean Friend, @Beckow, @Anatoly Karlin, @EldnahYm

    This same person – and others such – also rail against the alleged tribalism and nepotism of Indian Americans as a reason for them making it, entirely ironically missing their own extreme tribalism – and deep ignorance – in making these comments.

    You’re arguing here that people who object to Indian nepotism are themselves nepotistic. This is a classic Freudian tactic. If someone says something homophobic that must mean they’re a closeted gay.

    Accusing Indians of tribalism is one of the weaker insults hurled at them. That’s going easy on them. I would accuse the Indian diaspora of being parasitic, unscrupulous, cowardly, corrupt, and shameless. Tribalism is low on my list of complaints against them.

    So one then is to believe that Sundar Pichai became head of Google because Larry Page, Sergei Brin, Eric Schmidt et al were crypto-Indians. Similarly with Satya Nadella who was personally groomed by Bill Gates and turned Microsoft around after the disastrous Steve Ballmer. And apparently scientists like these 12 Indians deeply involved in NASA Mars missions https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/other/meet-the-indians-on-the-mars-perseverance-team/ar-BB1e4aye got their jobs (and many accolades) simply because JPL is sone Indian stronghold (rather than one that attracts highly motivated, intelligent scientists worldwide. There are many other nationalities who also work at JPL).

    These same commentators would rail against Wokeism – which is identity politics run amok for the benefit of grifters and power hungry opportunists of all colors – but then apparently objective merit based achievements in the US – which they would otherwise support – in which both EA and SA (Indians) are over-represented is due to “nepotism”.

    Silicon Valley Jews hire Indians because they’re a useful golem against white people.

    You are simply picking a select number of accomplished individuals and implying they represent Indian people as a whole. What does the ability of 12 NASA scientists tells us about the ability of Indian-Americans in general? Not much. You do realize this method of yours is not any more informative than the one you are attributing to others, namely stereotyping all Indians based on how India as a whole appears. Among Indian Americans, gas station owners or restaurant owners are more representative than the select people you are mentioning.

    Also, what is it with online Indians always lumping themselves in with East Asians? I have never in real life come across the idea that these two groups of people are similar, yet often I see online Indians trying to piggyback on East Asian accomplishment. People used to accuse the poster Thomm of being Indian, one time I saw him doing the same thing, so now I also believe he is Indian. Newsflash guy, East Asians in the U.S. also have the same complaint about Indians. Look up Ryu vs Intel Corporation if you don’t believe me. In contrast one of the most common stereotypes about East Asians in the U.S. is that they don’t cause any trouble(the others are that they study too hard, are passive, worship money, and are good at math).

    It’s not just the nepotism either. Indians doctors are overrepresented among medical fraudsters and pill mills. Indians have extremely low civic engagement. Some Indians, like Sikhs for example, demand society accommodate their foreign customs. There is also the simple fact that large numbers of the Indian diaspora are openly anti-white.

    I won’t go into your point about meritocracy. Ron Unz himself has written good articles on the subject which I recommend you read.

    Clearly family based businesses, like small shops or motels etc are “nepotistic” in the same way that any privately held organization – eg the Trump Organization – is nepotistic. (Even publicly owned businesses eg Ford, Walmart were nepotistic and indeed quite exclusionary to people of the wrong color for quite a while. THAT apparently is not nepotistic or tribal.

    Nepotism can extend to any form of social organization. Knowing the right people is one of the more surefire ways of getting a job. This creates ample opportunity for favoritism. Mencius Moldbugman describes Indian practice better than I:

    https://twitter.com/moldbugman/status/1137961234722988032

    Reading this blog then has reinforced my observation about many people: that they can be highly intellectual and discerning about certain topics but fall back into primitive drooling tribalism and idiocy outside their topic of expertise. In other words, the logic, commitment to reason and inquiry they display in their area is cast aside in favor of their raw emotions and deep prejudices outside it.

    Or maybe people have come into contact with real life Indians and know how they operate, especially when there are large clusters of them.

    • Agree: Daniel Chieh
    • Thanks: FerW
    • Replies: @sher singh
    @EldnahYm


    Some Indians, like Sikhs for example, demand society accommodate their foreign customs.
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seax

    https://twitter.com/senghmishima/status/1373514361101189120?s=21

    https://web.archive.org/web/20160305070242/http://mosmaiorum.org/persecution_list.html

    Bros, don't let bros act gay.

    Grow ur hair, lift weights & carry weapons.

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾ।।ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ।।

    https://www.manglacharan.com/post/call-to-arms-by-guru-gobind-singh-ji

    ਕੇਸਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰਜਬਿਦੋਨਹੁਂਧਾਰੇ।।ਤਬਿਨਰੁਰੂਪਹੋਤਿਹੈਸਾਰੇ।।
    Those who have adorned themselves with Kesh [unshorn hair] and Shastar [weapons], those men have attained their full form."
     

    Replies: @EldnahYm

  164. @Daniel Chieh
    @reiner Tor

    Almost certainly cultural/genetic co-evolution rather than just soy-based diet or the like. From E.A. Ross, it seems had been pretty much typical even in the 1900s:

    Chinese children do not run, romp, and climb like ours. Their schoolboys are less riotous than white boys. Athletic sports are unknown. One recreates with kite flying, cricket fighting, gambling, chess, or letting off fire-crackers. To sip wine and cap verses in a shady arbor or a cool grotto by a lotus pond is a gentleman’s ideal of happiness. There is game aplenty in some parts, but no one shoots save the pot hunter with his rusty matchlock. No one bestrides a horse for pleasure. The placid mule is preferred to the horse and a gentle amble to a brisk gallop. When the mounted soldier gets up speed, the sight is a salve for sore eyes. Boxing would never occur to anyone as a sport. Fighting is rare and, far from being a manly exchange of blows, is waged girl-wise, with scratching and hair-pulling. The singing of the men is a nasal falsetto in strange contrast to the abdomiual bellow of Western males.
     

    E.A.Ross, The Changing Chinese

    https://www.unz.com/book/e_a_ross__the-changing-chinese/

    Search UI is horrible for Unz books, incidentally.

    Replies: @EldnahYm, @Bashibuzuk, @European-American

    Thanks!

  165. @Daniel Chieh
    @JohnnyWalker123

    Comparison is actually almost completely inapplicable. The best analogy is that it is like the comparison of a RV with a bike; they are similar insofar as they both can provide mobility, so both caste and guanxi are forms of social bonds.

    However, even to my third-party and thus limited understanding, it was pretty evident that caste provides a rich context and guidance to the question of life, and even without any formal regulation, can inform one in life throughout. For a start, it can help determine your name. I was working with programmers at one point, and they mentioned one familiar could guess that they were from Kshatriya(warrior caste) from surnames and first names which were usually expected to be something "fierce." A name is just one thing but as you can imagine, one's name has influence in one's life, especially when it is also heavily associated with cultural underpinnings and even without any formal controls, can guide one in life.

    In my hiring capacity, it was also not uncommon that people would try to hire others from their village even if they weren't qualified, and then cover for them. There was some complex reasoning to this, but I agree with my boss at the time it was just best not to even try to understand, and just attempt to put a stop to it.

    The thing is, one has to realize that this is genuine mutual aid - it isn't just selfishness, its some form of deep cultural bound that permits obligations to form, even at self-sacrifice. But one thing notably in this is the question of loyalty: there's a strong sense of loyalty to family, and to various cultural or religious concept. I don't really see any sense of loyalty to the company(and if there is, its muted at best) and it may not be so much to the concept of a nation at all.

    The thing is, caste is so rich and extensive that it can basically substitute as a replacement for the entire modern economy. I'll quote from David Gaeber here:


    Foreign visitors were later to be awed by the self-sufficiency of the traditional Indian village, with its elaborate system of landowning castes, farmers, and such “service castes” as barbers, smiths, tanners, drummers, and washermen, all arranged in hierarchical order, each seen as making its own unique and necessary contribution to their little society, all of it typically operating entirely without the use of metal currency. It was only possible for those reduced to the status of Sudras and Untouchables to have a chance of accepting their lowly position because the exaction of local landlords was, again, on nothing like the same scale as that under earlier governments—under which villagers had to support cities of upwards of a million people—and because the village community became an effective means of holding the state and its representatives at least partially at bay.

     

    Guanxi is nothing akin to that. Its basically what is networking with some added ritual and familial component. For example, if your father's high school friend had a son who needed a job, he might ask your dad to help him. Your dad might ask you to help him, then, and if you thought that the kid wasn't too terrible, you might give him a chance.

    Its basically what the West would call a patronage network or an "old boy's network," although there's some Chinese alterations to it. As the Chinese traditionally saw the family as the lowest unit of political organization, guanxi is primarily a system of creating fictive kinship. Through it, and the ritual of mutual gifting(mutual indebthood) and frequent meals, a person who is not family is ritually considered as if he is family, and therefore treated with additional consideration. But its pretty limited, as it might be even with blood family - say if you had a nephew who was in a bad situation and needed help. Well, you might put up with him and let him stay at your place and clean up. You probably wouldn't sacrifice your work productivity just so he can also be in your company, most likely you would hold meaningful respect to your obligation to the company that you can't coddle your wastrel nephew.

    Patronage networks, like good old boy networks, exist mostly to help each other with people with similar status,etc. Business conspiracies in a way. They're not a replacement for the entire modern system and carry no such detail or cultural meaning.

    Ultimately, I do think it is a question of loyalty. The Indian system seems to have entirely accepted that loyalty is most natural to family and various religious/transcendent values, and quite valorizes hereditary. As Graeber notes, it doesn't really need a central government and often resists it.

    The Chinese literature has an ongoing struggle between the notion of loyalty to family versus loyalty to state, loyalty to righteousness, loyalty to king, etc,etc. Enormous reams of literature enjoy exploring the concept, and that's likely in no small part because as a state under centralized governance for much of its existence, including outright fascistic systems like Legalism, its a cultural with an accepted and essential role for a centralized state. And in that it valorizes meritocracy at least in theory, it denigrates hereditary. Peasants can rise to Emperors. Poor children can become palace officials through the Imperial Exam. In practice, this is rare, but with the morality of merit over hereditary is a strong cultural current.

    Replies: @sher singh, @AltanBakshi

    In my hiring capacity, it was also not uncommon that people would try to hire others from their village

    Village republic, Janapad; with a Sardar or Sarpanch (Chieftan; slang for Turbaned Sikh) as head.
    Elected, since Vedic era.

  166. @EldnahYm
    @Ludwig


    This same person – and others such – also rail against the alleged tribalism and nepotism of Indian Americans as a reason for them making it, entirely ironically missing their own extreme tribalism – and deep ignorance – in making these comments.
     
    You're arguing here that people who object to Indian nepotism are themselves nepotistic. This is a classic Freudian tactic. If someone says something homophobic that must mean they're a closeted gay.

    Accusing Indians of tribalism is one of the weaker insults hurled at them. That's going easy on them. I would accuse the Indian diaspora of being parasitic, unscrupulous, cowardly, corrupt, and shameless. Tribalism is low on my list of complaints against them.


    So one then is to believe that Sundar Pichai became head of Google because Larry Page, Sergei Brin, Eric Schmidt et al were crypto-Indians. Similarly with Satya Nadella who was personally groomed by Bill Gates and turned Microsoft around after the disastrous Steve Ballmer. And apparently scientists like these 12 Indians deeply involved in NASA Mars missions https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/other/meet-the-indians-on-the-mars-perseverance-team/ar-BB1e4aye got their jobs (and many accolades) simply because JPL is sone Indian stronghold (rather than one that attracts highly motivated, intelligent scientists worldwide. There are many other nationalities who also work at JPL).

    These same commentators would rail against Wokeism – which is identity politics run amok for the benefit of grifters and power hungry opportunists of all colors – but then apparently objective merit based achievements in the US – which they would otherwise support – in which both EA and SA (Indians) are over-represented is due to “nepotism”.
     

    Silicon Valley Jews hire Indians because they're a useful golem against white people.

    You are simply picking a select number of accomplished individuals and implying they represent Indian people as a whole. What does the ability of 12 NASA scientists tells us about the ability of Indian-Americans in general? Not much. You do realize this method of yours is not any more informative than the one you are attributing to others, namely stereotyping all Indians based on how India as a whole appears. Among Indian Americans, gas station owners or restaurant owners are more representative than the select people you are mentioning.

    Also, what is it with online Indians always lumping themselves in with East Asians? I have never in real life come across the idea that these two groups of people are similar, yet often I see online Indians trying to piggyback on East Asian accomplishment. People used to accuse the poster Thomm of being Indian, one time I saw him doing the same thing, so now I also believe he is Indian. Newsflash guy, East Asians in the U.S. also have the same complaint about Indians. Look up Ryu vs Intel Corporation if you don't believe me. In contrast one of the most common stereotypes about East Asians in the U.S. is that they don't cause any trouble(the others are that they study too hard, are passive, worship money, and are good at math).

    It's not just the nepotism either. Indians doctors are overrepresented among medical fraudsters and pill mills. Indians have extremely low civic engagement. Some Indians, like Sikhs for example, demand society accommodate their foreign customs. There is also the simple fact that large numbers of the Indian diaspora are openly anti-white.

    I won't go into your point about meritocracy. Ron Unz himself has written good articles on the subject which I recommend you read.


    Clearly family based businesses, like small shops or motels etc are “nepotistic” in the same way that any privately held organization – eg the Trump Organization – is nepotistic. (Even publicly owned businesses eg Ford, Walmart were nepotistic and indeed quite exclusionary to people of the wrong color for quite a while. THAT apparently is not nepotistic or tribal.
     
    Nepotism can extend to any form of social organization. Knowing the right people is one of the more surefire ways of getting a job. This creates ample opportunity for favoritism. Mencius Moldbugman describes Indian practice better than I:

    https://twitter.com/moldbugman/status/1137961234722988032


    Reading this blog then has reinforced my observation about many people: that they can be highly intellectual and discerning about certain topics but fall back into primitive drooling tribalism and idiocy outside their topic of expertise. In other words, the logic, commitment to reason and inquiry they display in their area is cast aside in favor of their raw emotions and deep prejudices outside it.
     
    Or maybe people have come into contact with real life Indians and know how they operate, especially when there are large clusters of them.

    Replies: @sher singh

    Some Indians, like Sikhs for example, demand society accommodate their foreign customs.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seax

    https://web.archive.org/web/20160305070242/http://mosmaiorum.org/persecution_list.html

    Bros, don’t let bros act gay.

    Grow ur hair, lift weights & carry weapons.

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾ।।ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ।।

    https://www.manglacharan.com/post/call-to-arms-by-guru-gobind-singh-ji

    ਕੇਸਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰਜਬਿਦੋਨਹੁਂਧਾਰੇ।।ਤਬਿਨਰੁਰੂਪਹੋਤਿਹੈਸਾਰੇ।।
    Those who have adorned themselves with Kesh [unshorn hair] and Shastar [weapons], those men have attained their full form.”

    • Replies: @EldnahYm
    @sher singh

    Sorry, I think turban wearing is a sign of foreignness and the worst sort of non-conformity. Such people should be banned from any sort of public work as a matter of principle.

    I have no problem with men carrying knives, although I think blacks should not be allowed.

    Replies: @Jatt Aryaa

  167. @china-russia-all-the-way
    @128

    I don't think Africans have it so bad in Guangzhou. And there are only a few thousand Africans living in Guangzhou on a very long term basis (multi-year) so it's not a big deal worthy of so much global media analysis. In 2020, there was huge outcry about discrimination against blacks in Guangzhou during the pandemic and pictures of blacks thrown out of rented apartments onto the streets will leave an impression for years. But there was a non-racist explanation for the apartment evictions.


    “The landlords, who were illegally taking rent money are liable. The understanding is that the tenant doesn’t lead police back to the house. That is why some are claiming they are being forced out of their houses, genuinely because the landlords themselves are facing jail time if caught,” he said.
     
    https://www.monitor.co.ug/News/National/Covid-19-Inside-story-300-Ugandans-stuck-China/688334-5522002-12fy2g1z/index.html

    Much is about perception. Africans in China are not prodded by an overwhelming cultural climate to see Chinese people as racist so even if there are bad experiences with Chinese, generally Africans shake off those experiences and see China as welcoming.

    Replies: @Europe Europa

    Much is about perception. Africans in China are not prodded by an overwhelming cultural climate to see Chinese people as racist so even if there are bad experiences with Chinese, generally Africans shake off those experiences and see China as welcoming.

    It seems to be only in Western countries where blacks and non-whites generally internalise negative experiences as representative of the entire native population and use it to eternally demand special privileges and reparations.

    In non-Western countries, black immigrants tend to take a more balanced view, like “a few people have been racist but most people are nice”, whereas blacks in the West just take the view that every single white person is racist whether overtly or passively.

    • Disagree: Daniel Chieh
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    @Europe Europa

    No, some Africans made a fuss in China for all sorts of crap and it went on headlines for awhile. The Party felt it had become a source of social disharmony.

    Now there are fewer Africans in China, and no headlines.

    Replies: @Blinky Bill

  168. Nepotism can extend to any form of social organization. Knowing the right people is one of the more surefire ways of getting a job. This creates ample opportunity for favoritism. Mencius Moldbugman describes Indian practice better than I:

    This is generally called “networking.” Whites and other groups engage in it too. Most people’s friends and acquaintances are those of similar ethnic background, so “networking” is generally going to involve people from similar backgrounds.

    Ultimately, group conflict and competition is primary, and people rationalize after the fact. In the contemporary environment, this means that whites see an out-group, like Indians, attain some position in their society. This is subconsciously noticeable or uncomfortable for them. It then gets rationalized in 2 main ways: 1) Liberal conditioning comes in and overrides these feelings by rationalizing it as wrong and “racist” to have those feelings. 2) It is explained by nepotism, nefariousness, plotting, etc.

    There is no scenario in which a group, such as conservative or ethnocentric whites, is comfortable with out-group members attaining certain positions or status in the same society. Others such as liberal whites are uncomfortable as well, but this gets overriden by conditioning which tells them that this discomfort is wrong and bad.

    • Agree: Jatt Aryaa
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    @mbutibirhor

    mbutibirhor's reading comprehension skill: 35%(not increasing).

    Skill gain status: Blocked until completion of quest "Read the entire Moldbugman Twitter thread."

    Please review, and revert after doing the needful.

  169. @mbutibirhor

    Nepotism can extend to any form of social organization. Knowing the right people is one of the more surefire ways of getting a job. This creates ample opportunity for favoritism. Mencius Moldbugman describes Indian practice better than I:
     
    This is generally called "networking." Whites and other groups engage in it too. Most people's friends and acquaintances are those of similar ethnic background, so "networking" is generally going to involve people from similar backgrounds.

    Ultimately, group conflict and competition is primary, and people rationalize after the fact. In the contemporary environment, this means that whites see an out-group, like Indians, attain some position in their society. This is subconsciously noticeable or uncomfortable for them. It then gets rationalized in 2 main ways: 1) Liberal conditioning comes in and overrides these feelings by rationalizing it as wrong and "racist" to have those feelings. 2) It is explained by nepotism, nefariousness, plotting, etc.

    There is no scenario in which a group, such as conservative or ethnocentric whites, is comfortable with out-group members attaining certain positions or status in the same society. Others such as liberal whites are uncomfortable as well, but this gets overriden by conditioning which tells them that this discomfort is wrong and bad.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    mbutibirhor’s reading comprehension skill: 35%(not increasing).

    Skill gain status: Blocked until completion of quest “Read the entire Moldbugman Twitter thread.”

    Please review, and revert after doing the needful.

  170. @Coconuts
    @songbird

    I wouldn't be surprised.

    It is interesting that the writer of the blog references Aristotle, but not thinkers like Kant, Marx or Nietszche. They seem to be much more influential, and foundational, to present day Western ethical thinking than Aristotle. The blog post would have become edgier if they had done that.

    Replies: @Sean, @songbird

    I guess the blog was quoting an author born in 1923. Not to say that the modern ideological foundation of the West wasn’t coming into being some 20-30 years later, but I suppose it would have been much harder to understand that from Japan, at that time. Arguably, the people in the West who understood things at the time were all eccentric people, like Francis Parker Yowkey.

    • Thanks: Coconuts
  171. @Europe Europa
    @china-russia-all-the-way


    Much is about perception. Africans in China are not prodded by an overwhelming cultural climate to see Chinese people as racist so even if there are bad experiences with Chinese, generally Africans shake off those experiences and see China as welcoming.
     
    It seems to be only in Western countries where blacks and non-whites generally internalise negative experiences as representative of the entire native population and use it to eternally demand special privileges and reparations.

    In non-Western countries, black immigrants tend to take a more balanced view, like "a few people have been racist but most people are nice", whereas blacks in the West just take the view that every single white person is racist whether overtly or passively.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    No, some Africans made a fuss in China for all sorts of crap and it went on headlines for awhile. The Party felt it had become a source of social disharmony.

    Now there are fewer Africans in China, and no headlines.

    • Replies: @Blinky Bill
    @Daniel Chieh

    Chocolate City ain't what it use to be.

  172. @Daniel Chieh
    @Europe Europa

    No, some Africans made a fuss in China for all sorts of crap and it went on headlines for awhile. The Party felt it had become a source of social disharmony.

    Now there are fewer Africans in China, and no headlines.

    Replies: @Blinky Bill

    Chocolate City ain’t what it use to be.

    • Agree: Daniel Chieh
  173. @Bill
    @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

    I see. Your point is that two populations could have the same mean "homicide tendencies" (whatever that means), but that one population could have higher observed rates if the environment is not currently conducive to homicide and if the higher-observed-rate population has a higher std dev of "homicide tendencies."

    I think what your example argues for is that "homicide tendencies" is not a thing, though.

    Replies: @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

    If you give me a random sample 10,000 Japs or Nords, I can make very good predictions of mean, SD and number of outliers for their IQ and heights.

    For more qualitative traits like „violent tendencies“ or „conformity“ then its much harder to make predictions about outliers. With Nords once in while you get someone like Brevik, with Japs they are are liable to pull this even during peacetime

    On November 25, 1970, Mishima and four members of his militia entered a military base in central Tokyo, took its commandant hostage, and tried to inspire the Japan Self-Defense Forces to rise up and overthrow Japan’s 1947 Constitution, which he called “a constitution of defeat”.[15][12] When his attempt failed, he committed seppuku.

    Mishima wrote:

    散るをいとふ 世にも人にも さきがけて 散るこそ花と 吹く小夜嵐

    A small night storm blows
    Saying ‘falling is the essence of a flower’
    Preceding those who hesitate

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yukio_Mishima

  174. @Pumblechook
    @Ludwig

    To put it bluntly, but not wanting to be rude, you seem to be reading and writing too much into it - at the high level, there are many people on this forum who are ethnonationalist to some degree. And if it is not already obvious to you, Indians are:

    a) very high in number
    b) across all societal levels, there is a great desire to leave their country behind and settle abroad - and Eastern Europe is definitely now on the menu, in particular the EU parts


    There are, I believe, particular Indian traits/characteristics which 'trigger' non-Indians in a way that not all populations manage to do - but this would be irrelevant if it were not for the 1.4 billion population and desire to emigrate. Working in a multinational IT company, I've had the chance to interact with many many Indians from many many different backgrounds.

    Goes without saying, at their best I have encountered erudite, kind, intelligent Indians without any weird agendas. But for sure, there is a disproportionate number which tick one or more of the following criteria:

    - nasty tendency to treat inferiors with derision and lick the boots of superiors
    - inferiority complex towards 'goras' combined with psycho-sexual fixation with them
    - highly attuned antenna to when they are about to be blamed correctly for doing something wrong, and preparing reasons/justifications as to why others are in fact to blame
    - an arrogance in a small number of high-caste types obviously raised as the centre of the universe...this is not the usual arrogance a westerner might have in mind...though i'm sure lower caste Indians can emphasise with this one
    - one of the worst for me; the pro-BJP types who nonetheless wag fingers about the West being racist and needing to be more multicultural. Particularly to hear that in Europe, it is completely unacceptable
    - bringing in their own network as contractors on projects for juicy day rates. Always found it astounding that there are young professionals on permanent contracts being paid 1/3 of what was paid to foreigners who can't even speak English and without a loose understanding of IT. Any serious country would ensure that money goes to locals who need to raise a family and build the nation

    Whilst I've also worked closely with Japanese, Latin Americans and Romanians as clients and colleagues, I have nowhere near the same level of very specific and recurring observations/complaints. This is definitely something peculiar to India and Indians.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @JohnnyWalker123, @Grahamsno(G64)

    Oh boy you’re so fixated on us all these pathologies you accuse us of are there in every other ethnicity

    a) very high in number

    Go to Mars if you want to avoid us

    inferiority complex towards ‘goras’ combined with psycho-sexual fixation with them

    Kowtowing to the powers nobody else does it right and who doesn’t want to fuck blondes it’s a compliment

    highly attuned antenna to when they are about to be blamed correctly for doing something wrong, and preparing reasons/justifications as to why others are in fact to blame

    Such vague observations to condemn a billion plus people

    one of the worst for me; the pro-BJP types who nonetheless wag fingers about the West being racist and needing to be more multicultural. Particularly to hear that in Europe, it is completely unacceptable

    Completely agree with you, see we aren’t a homogenous ant colony and I am not a Hindu nationalist.

    bringing in their own network as contractors on projects for juicy day rates. Always found it astounding that there are young professionals on permanent contracts being paid 1/3 of what was paid to foreigners who can’t even speak English and without a loose understanding of IT. Any serious country would ensure that money goes to locals who need to raise a family and build the nation

    Everybody does that for entry into a lucrative market the Japanese in the 80’s used to bid a dollar to build highways in the US.

    See you can shut all this down by having your legislatures banning us like they did with the Chinese exclusion act in the US nearly a century or more ago, as long as migration is legal we’ll do it and your particular grouse is with the higher end migration, well your best companies come now hire in India straight from the campus, please stop them hiring us.

    There’s nothing extraordinary about Indians dominating the software business in the west, when the internet exploded in the late 90s an army of coders was required and we provided it at low cost and quality like how the Chinese captured manufacturing they were capable of a scale unthinkable and we did the same with software “the scale.” As Daniel Chieh pointed out we are not even that good at software but we have the numbers required for the scale, as Stalin said quantity is its own quality and just like you can’t escape Chinese manufacturers you can’t escape Indian coders who mainly perform back office functions.

    It’s just numbers man nothing personal

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    @Grahamsno(G64)


    As Daniel Chieh pointed out we are not even that good at software but we have the numbers required for the scale,
     
    "Scale."

    What a fascinating word for hostage taking after replacing all local equivalents with substandard quality at low prices, and thereby becoming "essential." Political skullduggery, bribery and other uh, ethically liberal practices are all quite understandable, because winning is all that matters.

    https://www.investopedia.com/terms/l/lowball.asp

    A lowball offer is a slang term for an offer that is significantly below the seller’s asking price, or a quote that is deliberately lower than the price the seller intends to charge. To lowball also means to deliberately give a false estimate for something. Usually, the potential buyer making the lowball offer is not actually expecting the seller to accept; instead, it can be used as a way to start or push forward negotiations.
     

    But hey, vae victis, right?

    Replies: @Jatt Aryaa, @Grahamsno(G64)

  175. @Grahamsno(G64)
    @Pumblechook

    Oh boy you're so fixated on us all these pathologies you accuse us of are there in every other ethnicity


    a) very high in number
     
    Go to Mars if you want to avoid us

    inferiority complex towards ‘goras’ combined with psycho-sexual fixation with them
     
    Kowtowing to the powers nobody else does it right and who doesn't want to fuck blondes it's a compliment

    highly attuned antenna to when they are about to be blamed correctly for doing something wrong, and preparing reasons/justifications as to why others are in fact to blame


     

    Such vague observations to condemn a billion plus people

    one of the worst for me; the pro-BJP types who nonetheless wag fingers about the West being racist and needing to be more multicultural. Particularly to hear that in Europe, it is completely unacceptable

     

    Completely agree with you, see we aren't a homogenous ant colony and I am not a Hindu nationalist.

    bringing in their own network as contractors on projects for juicy day rates. Always found it astounding that there are young professionals on permanent contracts being paid 1/3 of what was paid to foreigners who can’t even speak English and without a loose understanding of IT. Any serious country would ensure that money goes to locals who need to raise a family and build the nation


     

    Everybody does that for entry into a lucrative market the Japanese in the 80's used to bid a dollar to build highways in the US.

    See you can shut all this down by having your legislatures banning us like they did with the Chinese exclusion act in the US nearly a century or more ago, as long as migration is legal we'll do it and your particular grouse is with the higher end migration, well your best companies come now hire in India straight from the campus, please stop them hiring us.

    There's nothing extraordinary about Indians dominating the software business in the west, when the internet exploded in the late 90s an army of coders was required and we provided it at low cost and quality like how the Chinese captured manufacturing they were capable of a scale unthinkable and we did the same with software "the scale." As Daniel Chieh pointed out we are not even that good at software but we have the numbers required for the scale, as Stalin said quantity is its own quality and just like you can't escape Chinese manufacturers you can't escape Indian coders who mainly perform back office functions.

    It's just numbers man nothing personal

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    As Daniel Chieh pointed out we are not even that good at software but we have the numbers required for the scale,

    “Scale.”

    What a fascinating word for hostage taking after replacing all local equivalents with substandard quality at low prices, and thereby becoming “essential.” Political skullduggery, bribery and other uh, ethically liberal practices are all quite understandable, because winning is all that matters.

    https://www.investopedia.com/terms/l/lowball.asp

    A lowball offer is a slang term for an offer that is significantly below the seller’s asking price, or a quote that is deliberately lower than the price the seller intends to charge. To lowball also means to deliberately give a false estimate for something. Usually, the potential buyer making the lowball offer is not actually expecting the seller to accept; instead, it can be used as a way to start or push forward negotiations.

    But hey, vae victis, right?

    • Replies: @Jatt Aryaa
    @Daniel Chieh

    https://vdare.com/articles/the-sikhs-of-vancouver

    The colonized Christian seems to be forgetting he's not white.

    Century of humiliation

    V

    Hurr durr I can't draw dicks at Disney

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    , @Grahamsno(G64)
    @Daniel Chieh

    Daniel,

    You guys did it with manufacturing low quality goods in unbelievable numbers with cheap prices the "Scale" thats what I'm talking about a stunning feat capturing the world's engineering, the Chinese have done it, and we've done the "Scale" shit with software.

  176. @Daniel Chieh
    @Grahamsno(G64)


    As Daniel Chieh pointed out we are not even that good at software but we have the numbers required for the scale,
     
    "Scale."

    What a fascinating word for hostage taking after replacing all local equivalents with substandard quality at low prices, and thereby becoming "essential." Political skullduggery, bribery and other uh, ethically liberal practices are all quite understandable, because winning is all that matters.

    https://www.investopedia.com/terms/l/lowball.asp

    A lowball offer is a slang term for an offer that is significantly below the seller’s asking price, or a quote that is deliberately lower than the price the seller intends to charge. To lowball also means to deliberately give a false estimate for something. Usually, the potential buyer making the lowball offer is not actually expecting the seller to accept; instead, it can be used as a way to start or push forward negotiations.
     

    But hey, vae victis, right?

    Replies: @Jatt Aryaa, @Grahamsno(G64)

    https://vdare.com/articles/the-sikhs-of-vancouver

    The colonized Christian seems to be forgetting he’s not white.

    Century of humiliation

    V

    Hurr durr I can’t draw dicks at Disney

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    @Jatt Aryaa

    Ah yes, sorry, I forgot that rational thought was only something that whites value.

    https://tri-statedefender.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/whiteness-1_0.png

    Replies: @sher singh

  177. @Jatt Aryaa
    @Daniel Chieh

    https://vdare.com/articles/the-sikhs-of-vancouver

    The colonized Christian seems to be forgetting he's not white.

    Century of humiliation

    V

    Hurr durr I can't draw dicks at Disney

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    Ah yes, sorry, I forgot that rational thought was only something that whites value.

    • Agree: sher singh
    • Replies: @sher singh
    @Daniel Chieh

    Tribalism is very rational; you're practicing the dishonest variety.

    Your christian religion, french wife & white-passing kids give you an interest in white supremacy.

    Not the meme white supremacy but the classic

    You're either the foot in the boot or being crushed beneath the sole||

    -- Helping people from the village (a multi-caste republic) contradicts the Ree Caste Shistum! stuff.

    I raise your menciusmoldbugman with Duke of Qin

    https://twitter.com/qin_duke/status/1358913929674698752?s=20

    Indians get hatred on the internet because they compete w/ the white middle class who inhabits it.


    “The medieval church instituted marriage laws and practices that undermined large kinship groups
     

    there is a large and significant negative correlation between Christianization (for at least 500 years) and the absence of clans and lineages
     
    It is for retards.

    Reminder that tribalism & racism are un-Christian. ;)


    https://hbdchick.wordpress.com/2011/04/04/whatever-happened-to-european-tribes/#:~:text=by%20banning%20cousin%20marriage%2C%20tribes,in%20european%20society%20were%20loosened.&text=First%20and%20second%20cousin%20marriages,sometimes%20continued%20to%20be%20granted.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh

  178. @Daniel Chieh
    @Jatt Aryaa

    Ah yes, sorry, I forgot that rational thought was only something that whites value.

    https://tri-statedefender.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/whiteness-1_0.png

    Replies: @sher singh

    Tribalism is very rational; you’re practicing the dishonest variety.

    Your christian religion, french wife & white-passing kids give you an interest in white supremacy.

    Not the meme white supremacy but the classic

    You’re either the foot in the boot or being crushed beneath the sole||

    — Helping people from the village (a multi-caste republic) contradicts the Ree Caste Shistum! stuff.

    I raise your menciusmoldbugman with Duke of Qin

    Indians get hatred on the internet because they compete w/ the white middle class who inhabits it.

    “The medieval church instituted marriage laws and practices that undermined large kinship groups

    there is a large and significant negative correlation between Christianization (for at least 500 years) and the absence of clans and lineages

    It is for retards.

    Reminder that tribalism & racism are un-Christian. 😉

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    @sher singh

    Psychopathy isn't particular adaptive, and the Indian history of repeated defeats to just about anyone with a reasonably sized force is excellent evidence for it. However, I wouldn't expect you to understand, as future orientation is also apparently a trait reserved for whiteness.

    Replies: @Jatt Aryaa

  179. @sher singh
    @Daniel Chieh

    Tribalism is very rational; you're practicing the dishonest variety.

    Your christian religion, french wife & white-passing kids give you an interest in white supremacy.

    Not the meme white supremacy but the classic

    You're either the foot in the boot or being crushed beneath the sole||

    -- Helping people from the village (a multi-caste republic) contradicts the Ree Caste Shistum! stuff.

    I raise your menciusmoldbugman with Duke of Qin

    https://twitter.com/qin_duke/status/1358913929674698752?s=20

    Indians get hatred on the internet because they compete w/ the white middle class who inhabits it.


    “The medieval church instituted marriage laws and practices that undermined large kinship groups
     

    there is a large and significant negative correlation between Christianization (for at least 500 years) and the absence of clans and lineages
     
    It is for retards.

    Reminder that tribalism & racism are un-Christian. ;)


    https://hbdchick.wordpress.com/2011/04/04/whatever-happened-to-european-tribes/#:~:text=by%20banning%20cousin%20marriage%2C%20tribes,in%20european%20society%20were%20loosened.&text=First%20and%20second%20cousin%20marriages,sometimes%20continued%20to%20be%20granted.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    Psychopathy isn’t particular adaptive, and the Indian history of repeated defeats to just about anyone with a reasonably sized force is excellent evidence for it. However, I wouldn’t expect you to understand, as future orientation is also apparently a trait reserved for whiteness.

    • Replies: @Jatt Aryaa
    @Daniel Chieh

    Like who?

    Numerous steppe tribes have been confined to the NW of the continent as my own genetics would attest.

    If we just want to limit ourselves to invaders who reached Delhi over 2500 years and thousands of attempts; it's 5-6 and Timur famously couldn't leave Delhi due to the Jatts you're talking about.

    Your christcuck is showing.

  180. @Daniel Chieh
    @sher singh

    Psychopathy isn't particular adaptive, and the Indian history of repeated defeats to just about anyone with a reasonably sized force is excellent evidence for it. However, I wouldn't expect you to understand, as future orientation is also apparently a trait reserved for whiteness.

    Replies: @Jatt Aryaa

    Like who?

    Numerous steppe tribes have been confined to the NW of the continent as my own genetics would attest.

    If we just want to limit ourselves to invaders who reached Delhi over 2500 years and thousands of attempts; it’s 5-6 and Timur famously couldn’t leave Delhi due to the Jatts you’re talking about.

    Your christcuck is showing.

  181. @Daniel Chieh
    @Grahamsno(G64)


    As Daniel Chieh pointed out we are not even that good at software but we have the numbers required for the scale,
     
    "Scale."

    What a fascinating word for hostage taking after replacing all local equivalents with substandard quality at low prices, and thereby becoming "essential." Political skullduggery, bribery and other uh, ethically liberal practices are all quite understandable, because winning is all that matters.

    https://www.investopedia.com/terms/l/lowball.asp

    A lowball offer is a slang term for an offer that is significantly below the seller’s asking price, or a quote that is deliberately lower than the price the seller intends to charge. To lowball also means to deliberately give a false estimate for something. Usually, the potential buyer making the lowball offer is not actually expecting the seller to accept; instead, it can be used as a way to start or push forward negotiations.
     

    But hey, vae victis, right?

    Replies: @Jatt Aryaa, @Grahamsno(G64)

    Daniel,

    You guys did it with manufacturing low quality goods in unbelievable numbers with cheap prices the “Scale” thats what I’m talking about a stunning feat capturing the world’s engineering, the Chinese have done it, and we’ve done the “Scale” shit with software.

  182. Mr Chieh,

    You wont’t believe me but I have a Chinese wife for more than 15 yrs, she thinks that India is full off lazy, stupid black assholes but decent people.

    From Anshan Liaoning I’m not your enemy.

    • Replies: @Grahamsno(G64)
    @Grahamsno(G64)

    There was such an amount of paperwork to do until I finally married her,

    I had to register with the foreign marriages registar in Shenyang the capital of Liaoning, this ministry had booked an expensive hotel to register us and guess what there was a gigantic queue of Chinese women capturing men from all over the world in front of me was a giant from Africa with his tiny to be wife, behind me was a man from Iran and behind him a white guy from Australia, but no Chinese men.'

    Any how I have never encountered any racist abuse in 'Dongbei' the worst were 'compliments' like 'You are not very black.'

    I think that India and China will get along very well if your Country stops behaving arrogantly with us.

    Replies: @Grahamsno(G64)

  183. @Grahamsno(G64)
    Mr Chieh,

    You wont't believe me but I have a Chinese wife for more than 15 yrs, she thinks that India is full off lazy, stupid black assholes but decent people.

    From Anshan Liaoning I'm not your enemy.

    Replies: @Grahamsno(G64)

    There was such an amount of paperwork to do until I finally married her,

    I had to register with the foreign marriages registar in Shenyang the capital of Liaoning, this ministry had booked an expensive hotel to register us and guess what there was a gigantic queue of Chinese women capturing men from all over the world in front of me was a giant from Africa with his tiny to be wife, behind me was a man from Iran and behind him a white guy from Australia, but no Chinese men.’

    Any how I have never encountered any racist abuse in ‘Dongbei’ the worst were ‘compliments’ like ‘You are not very black.’

    I think that India and China will get along very well if your Country stops behaving arrogantly with us.

    • Replies: @Grahamsno(G64)
    @Grahamsno(G64)

    And all you white men with yellow fever,

    Chinese women aren't your submissive massage parlor wifes, they are hard women I know because I am married to one of them. It's normal they're really tough women I'm sure Chinese men will agree.

  184. @Grahamsno(G64)
    @Grahamsno(G64)

    There was such an amount of paperwork to do until I finally married her,

    I had to register with the foreign marriages registar in Shenyang the capital of Liaoning, this ministry had booked an expensive hotel to register us and guess what there was a gigantic queue of Chinese women capturing men from all over the world in front of me was a giant from Africa with his tiny to be wife, behind me was a man from Iran and behind him a white guy from Australia, but no Chinese men.'

    Any how I have never encountered any racist abuse in 'Dongbei' the worst were 'compliments' like 'You are not very black.'

    I think that India and China will get along very well if your Country stops behaving arrogantly with us.

    Replies: @Grahamsno(G64)

    And all you white men with yellow fever,

    Chinese women aren’t your submissive massage parlor wifes, they are hard women I know because I am married to one of them. It’s normal they’re really tough women I’m sure Chinese men will agree.

  185. What’s wrong with you people Hindus send their best outside as opposed to criminal, rapist terrorist Muslims and you’re mad at us, ask the Russians whether they would prefer Hindu immigrants as opposed to Chechens, ask the british, pakistani suicide bombers and groomers vs Hindus who are cabinet ministers under Boris Johnson’s government(strange isn’t it that Hindu men don’t dick little white girls these Pakis are genetically our cousins but we don’t do this shit). The Gulf States prefer us (Millions work there and go back with a strict work permit system, we built the petro states)because you can import us in numbers( 3 to 4 times the amount of natives) and yet cause Zero problems, they could have easily imported their co-religionists but they don’t because of our peaceful nature.

    2 of the last 3 Field Medal winners in the US were of Indian origin(Manjul Bhargava & Akshay Venkatesh) that’s the quality we send to the US I mean highly educated ambitious types you should be glad that immivasion you are subjected to by your elite has good people.

    • LOL: Jatt Aryaa
  186. Like how the Chinese captured manufacturing we’ve captured ‘backoffice’ finance is next

    https://www.goldmansachs.com/our-firm/history/moments/2019-150-orr.html

    Goldman Sachs bitches

  187. @AP
    @Thulean Friend

    This would match my anecdotal knowledge of the dozen or so Indians (or adjacent) I’ve known. Everyone has been Brahmin, except for a general’s daughter, and a colleague who comes from a wealthy Christian family in Kerala. Without exception nice and gracious towards colleagues and peers, but I’ve heard that some of them behave with open contempt towards those they perceive as underlings (I have seen something similar from a rich Russian friend towards waiters or store clerks).

    In Nepal the upper castes are Indo-Aryans while lower castes are Tibetan-Asians. I know an immigrant Brahmin Nepalese family that was in crisis when their kid was dating a much wealthier Japanese kid. In their view, East Asians by default were of lower caste and therefore this relationship was a source of shame.

    Replies: @Blinky Bill, @Ludwig, @AltanBakshi

    In Nepal the upper castes are Indo-Aryans while lower castes are Tibetan-Asians.

    Gurkhas, the traditional military elite and founders of Nepal are more “mongoloid” than Caucasian in their features. Most of farmers and poor labourers in Nepal are from the southern border of Nepal, the region bordering India is called Terai, and folks from there have almost no influence on Nepali politics, even though they make something like 40% of population, they are most Indo-Aryan of all Nepalis, so I don’t know what tall tales you have heard from these “Nepali” or Terai Madhesi Brahmins.

    Then there are Newari people, who are the founders of Nepali culture and architecture. Their language is relative of Tibetan and they are the most educated and economically powerful ethnic group in Nepal, and they definitely have mixed Indo-Aryan and East Asian heritage.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newar_people

    Newars have continued their age-old traditions and practices and pride themselves as the true custodians of the religion, culture and civilisation of Nepal.[7] Newars are known for their contributions to culture, art and literature, trade, agriculture and cuisine.[8] Today, they consistently rank as the most economically, politically and socially advanced community of Nepal, according to the annual Human Development Index published by UNDP

    Good folks, I know some of them, one of the few people who are still genuinely Hindu-Buddhist, what happened to us? 2000 years ago we were all one Great Dharma community, and not this or that…. I think there was one famous Keralite who with his followers made our divisions grow wider than ever before….

    • Replies: @Blinky Bill
    @AltanBakshi

    Agree

    https://youtu.be/UukiFNeg5uk

  188. @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms
    @melanf

    This can’t be attested to one way or the other, based on current archaeology.

    Xia (22CE BC) and (Shang 16CE BC) are called dynasties but are really pre-history. So we don’t really know what they look like. Most likely Sino-Tibetan/Altaic, but who knows.

    We do know that the Shangs are very un-Confucian. E.g. a lot of wild crazy sex, and human sacrifices.

    Zhou and after are attest-ably northern Mongoloid
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terracotta_Army#Types_and_appearance

    Caucasoid features have been around since time immemorial. Just have gradually phase out as the center of Sino civilization transitioned from Northwest (near Xi’an) towards Southeast (Yangtze Delta)

    Sun Quan, one of the 3 Monarchs of the Three Kingdoms was cited as having blue eyes, so you guys can claim him. (Though he was not considered to be more non-conformist than Liu Bei and Cao Cao, the other two monarchs lol)


    小説『三国志演義』では、「碧眼紫髯 堂堂一表」と堂々とした風采の持ち主として描写されている[52]。「碧眼児」(水色瞳の童)と呼ばれる。
    In the novel "Romance of the Three Kingdoms", it is described as the owner of a dignified appearance as "Blue-eyed Purple Beard Dodo Ichimoku" [52]. He is called a "blue-eyed child" (a child with light blue eyes).

     

    https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%AD%AB%E6%A8%A9#%E9%A2%A8%E8%B2%8C

    Replies: @Boomthorkell, @melanf, @AltanBakshi

    We do know that the Shangs are very un-Confucian. E.g. a lot of wild crazy sex, and human sacrifices.

    Isn’t that just possibly propaganda made by Zhou? Though there is some archeological evidence of mass animal sacrifices, I haven’t heard of human cases, maybe rarely, but then even Romans practiced human sacrifice in some rare special situations when their country was in very dire straits.

    • Replies: @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms
    @AltanBakshi

    Ha, but isn’t a tradition to slander the dynasty that one overthrows? Are all those Ming emperors really perverts or just what we are told to believe by Manchu appointed historians? I’ve heard the saying that History is a Dark Forest (a la Liu Cixin), once one dig deeper into original sources more skepticism one must apply.

    Very likely Shang is more civilizationally accomplished than normally depicted. There have been many recent archeology discoveries. The last king Zhou 纣王 was supposedly a tyrant and sex maniac, Mao (who would know about promiscuity) assessed him as follows which I find creditable


    商纣王是很有本领的人,周武王把他说得很坏。
    King Zhou was a capable man, King Wu of Zhou made him sound terrible

    他经营东南,把东夷和中原的统一巩固起来
    He administered the Southeast, unified the Central Plains with Eastern Barbarians

    周武王乘虚进攻,大批俘虏倒戈
    King Wu attacked at a moment of vulnerability (when Zhou was on expedition in the East), large numbers of Zhou’s POWs defected

     

    https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%B8%9D%E8%BE%9B#%E8%80%83%E5%8F%A4%E7%A0%94%E7%A9%B6

    Key point is that there are a lot of intrigues about pre-Shang era still to be known. Most certainly the contact between Sinitics with Altaics/Inner Asians must go back to antiquity. Khitans were simply the first literate ones.

    Huangdi 黄帝, the progenitor supposedly of the Han race makes is referenced with many symbols to Bears and Wolves, which are sacred symbols more associated with Altaic peoples.

    In 史記 Records of the Grand Historian, it is said the son of the last King of Xia, Jie 桀, married his father’s secondary wives. This is not a custom for Hans but for steppe people.

    In 尔雅 Erya, there is a line

    黄金谓之璗
    Gold is said to be 璗.

     

    璗 dang4, is a very unusual character and probably a cognate for Altan 😉. So again Altaic borrowing

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erya

    All this seems pretty credible as Inner Asians would be the transmitter of West Eurasian technology like chariots to China across the Eurasian Steppe since prehistoric times, and vice versa later to the West with China’s inventions.
  189. @Daniel Chieh
    @EldnahYm

    Chinese population is pretty heavy to the south, so it would be an effect even if not universal.

    https://saylordotorg.github.io/text_world-regional-geography-people-places-and-globalization/section_13/2188ec2232f5d9f5d0ebdb4ee61601bd.jpg

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    No, it’s not, still about 40% of people live in the North and North China plain is most important population centre of Chinese people.

    • Thanks: Daniel Chieh
  190. @AltanBakshi
    @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms


    We do know that the Shangs are very un-Confucian. E.g. a lot of wild crazy sex, and human sacrifices.
     
    Isn't that just possibly propaganda made by Zhou? Though there is some archeological evidence of mass animal sacrifices, I haven't heard of human cases, maybe rarely, but then even Romans practiced human sacrifice in some rare special situations when their country was in very dire straits.

    Replies: @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

    Ha, but isn’t a tradition to slander the dynasty that one overthrows? Are all those Ming emperors really perverts or just what we are told to believe by Manchu appointed historians? I’ve heard the saying that History is a Dark Forest (a la Liu Cixin), once one dig deeper into original sources more skepticism one must apply.

    Very likely Shang is more civilizationally accomplished than normally depicted. There have been many recent archeology discoveries. The last king Zhou 纣王 was supposedly a tyrant and sex maniac, Mao (who would know about promiscuity) assessed him as follows which I find creditable

    商纣王是很有本领的人,周武王把他说得很坏。
    King Zhou was a capable man, King Wu of Zhou made him sound terrible

    他经营东南,把东夷和中原的统一巩固起来
    He administered the Southeast, unified the Central Plains with Eastern Barbarians

    周武王乘虚进攻,大批俘虏倒戈
    King Wu attacked at a moment of vulnerability (when Zhou was on expedition in the East), large numbers of Zhou’s POWs defected

    https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%B8%9D%E8%BE%9B#%E8%80%83%E5%8F%A4%E7%A0%94%E7%A9%B6

    Key point is that there are a lot of intrigues about pre-Shang era still to be known. Most certainly the contact between Sinitics with Altaics/Inner Asians must go back to antiquity. Khitans were simply the first literate ones.

    Huangdi 黄帝, the progenitor supposedly of the Han race makes is referenced with many symbols to Bears and Wolves, which are sacred symbols more associated with Altaic peoples.

    In 史記 Records of the Grand Historian, it is said the son of the last King of Xia, Jie 桀, married his father’s secondary wives. This is not a custom for Hans but for steppe people.

    In 尔雅 Erya, there is a line

    黄金谓之璗
    Gold is said to be 璗.

    璗 dang4, is a very unusual character and probably a cognate for Altan 😉. So again Altaic borrowing

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erya

    All this seems pretty credible as Inner Asians would be the transmitter of West Eurasian technology like chariots to China across the Eurasian Steppe since prehistoric times, and vice versa later to the West with China’s inventions.

  191. @sher singh
    @EldnahYm


    Some Indians, like Sikhs for example, demand society accommodate their foreign customs.
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seax

    https://twitter.com/senghmishima/status/1373514361101189120?s=21

    https://web.archive.org/web/20160305070242/http://mosmaiorum.org/persecution_list.html

    Bros, don't let bros act gay.

    Grow ur hair, lift weights & carry weapons.

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾ।।ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ।।

    https://www.manglacharan.com/post/call-to-arms-by-guru-gobind-singh-ji

    ਕੇਸਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰਜਬਿਦੋਨਹੁਂਧਾਰੇ।।ਤਬਿਨਰੁਰੂਪਹੋਤਿਹੈਸਾਰੇ।।
    Those who have adorned themselves with Kesh [unshorn hair] and Shastar [weapons], those men have attained their full form."
     

    Replies: @EldnahYm

    Sorry, I think turban wearing is a sign of foreignness and the worst sort of non-conformity. Such people should be banned from any sort of public work as a matter of principle.

    I have no problem with men carrying knives, although I think blacks should not be allowed.

    • Replies: @Jatt Aryaa
    @EldnahYm

    I said Sword not knife and anyway fuck what you think.

    You being right wing is literal anti conformity to what your society's become.

    Pucker up for the hormones, sunshine.

    Replies: @EldnahYm

  192. @AltanBakshi
    @AP


    In Nepal the upper castes are Indo-Aryans while lower castes are Tibetan-Asians.
     
    Gurkhas, the traditional military elite and founders of Nepal are more "mongoloid" than Caucasian in their features. Most of farmers and poor labourers in Nepal are from the southern border of Nepal, the region bordering India is called Terai, and folks from there have almost no influence on Nepali politics, even though they make something like 40% of population, they are most Indo-Aryan of all Nepalis, so I don't know what tall tales you have heard from these "Nepali" or Terai Madhesi Brahmins.

    Then there are Newari people, who are the founders of Nepali culture and architecture. Their language is relative of Tibetan and they are the most educated and economically powerful ethnic group in Nepal, and they definitely have mixed Indo-Aryan and East Asian heritage.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newar_people


    Newars have continued their age-old traditions and practices and pride themselves as the true custodians of the religion, culture and civilisation of Nepal.[7] Newars are known for their contributions to culture, art and literature, trade, agriculture and cuisine.[8] Today, they consistently rank as the most economically, politically and socially advanced community of Nepal, according to the annual Human Development Index published by UNDP
     
    Good folks, I know some of them, one of the few people who are still genuinely Hindu-Buddhist, what happened to us? 2000 years ago we were all one Great Dharma community, and not this or that.... I think there was one famous Keralite who with his followers made our divisions grow wider than ever before....

    Replies: @Blinky Bill

    Agree

    [MORE]

  193. @Bashibuzuk
    @solow

    There is an Algerian saying I heard from a friend: " A free man understands with a wink, a slave with a punch (to the face)."

    It is shorter and it rhymes in Algerian Arabic dialect.

    Westerners (wrongly ?) believe that the Reality can be understood and explained through rational investigation and logic. But a great number of people around the World do not think that way.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    Westerners (wrongly ?) believe that the Reality can be understood and explained through rational investigation and logic. But a great number of people around the World do not think that way.

    Sadly even most westerners belong to that “great number of people.” What you are describing is not a particularly Western phenomenon. Christianity is extremely devotional faith and… oh well…

  194. @Daniel Chieh
    @JohnnyWalker123

    Comparison is actually almost completely inapplicable. The best analogy is that it is like the comparison of a RV with a bike; they are similar insofar as they both can provide mobility, so both caste and guanxi are forms of social bonds.

    However, even to my third-party and thus limited understanding, it was pretty evident that caste provides a rich context and guidance to the question of life, and even without any formal regulation, can inform one in life throughout. For a start, it can help determine your name. I was working with programmers at one point, and they mentioned one familiar could guess that they were from Kshatriya(warrior caste) from surnames and first names which were usually expected to be something "fierce." A name is just one thing but as you can imagine, one's name has influence in one's life, especially when it is also heavily associated with cultural underpinnings and even without any formal controls, can guide one in life.

    In my hiring capacity, it was also not uncommon that people would try to hire others from their village even if they weren't qualified, and then cover for them. There was some complex reasoning to this, but I agree with my boss at the time it was just best not to even try to understand, and just attempt to put a stop to it.

    The thing is, one has to realize that this is genuine mutual aid - it isn't just selfishness, its some form of deep cultural bound that permits obligations to form, even at self-sacrifice. But one thing notably in this is the question of loyalty: there's a strong sense of loyalty to family, and to various cultural or religious concept. I don't really see any sense of loyalty to the company(and if there is, its muted at best) and it may not be so much to the concept of a nation at all.

    The thing is, caste is so rich and extensive that it can basically substitute as a replacement for the entire modern economy. I'll quote from David Gaeber here:


    Foreign visitors were later to be awed by the self-sufficiency of the traditional Indian village, with its elaborate system of landowning castes, farmers, and such “service castes” as barbers, smiths, tanners, drummers, and washermen, all arranged in hierarchical order, each seen as making its own unique and necessary contribution to their little society, all of it typically operating entirely without the use of metal currency. It was only possible for those reduced to the status of Sudras and Untouchables to have a chance of accepting their lowly position because the exaction of local landlords was, again, on nothing like the same scale as that under earlier governments—under which villagers had to support cities of upwards of a million people—and because the village community became an effective means of holding the state and its representatives at least partially at bay.

     

    Guanxi is nothing akin to that. Its basically what is networking with some added ritual and familial component. For example, if your father's high school friend had a son who needed a job, he might ask your dad to help him. Your dad might ask you to help him, then, and if you thought that the kid wasn't too terrible, you might give him a chance.

    Its basically what the West would call a patronage network or an "old boy's network," although there's some Chinese alterations to it. As the Chinese traditionally saw the family as the lowest unit of political organization, guanxi is primarily a system of creating fictive kinship. Through it, and the ritual of mutual gifting(mutual indebthood) and frequent meals, a person who is not family is ritually considered as if he is family, and therefore treated with additional consideration. But its pretty limited, as it might be even with blood family - say if you had a nephew who was in a bad situation and needed help. Well, you might put up with him and let him stay at your place and clean up. You probably wouldn't sacrifice your work productivity just so he can also be in your company, most likely you would hold meaningful respect to your obligation to the company that you can't coddle your wastrel nephew.

    Patronage networks, like good old boy networks, exist mostly to help each other with people with similar status,etc. Business conspiracies in a way. They're not a replacement for the entire modern system and carry no such detail or cultural meaning.

    Ultimately, I do think it is a question of loyalty. The Indian system seems to have entirely accepted that loyalty is most natural to family and various religious/transcendent values, and quite valorizes hereditary. As Graeber notes, it doesn't really need a central government and often resists it.

    The Chinese literature has an ongoing struggle between the notion of loyalty to family versus loyalty to state, loyalty to righteousness, loyalty to king, etc,etc. Enormous reams of literature enjoy exploring the concept, and that's likely in no small part because as a state under centralized governance for much of its existence, including outright fascistic systems like Legalism, its a cultural with an accepted and essential role for a centralized state. And in that it valorizes meritocracy at least in theory, it denigrates hereditary. Peasants can rise to Emperors. Poor children can become palace officials through the Imperial Exam. In practice, this is rare, but with the morality of merit over hereditary is a strong cultural current.

    Replies: @sher singh, @AltanBakshi

    Indian caste system is utter idiocy, someone who has never been a warrior or served in army is Kshatriya, even though he’s a businessman and no one in his family has fought in centuries. Someone is brahmin even though he smokes and works as a taxi driver, it’s just so idiotic and moronic that I have no word to describe it.

    “A brahmin is a brahmin because of what he does; a man who is not a brahmin is not a brahmin because of what he does.

    A farmer is a farmer because of what he does and a craftsman is a craftsman because of what he does.

    A merchant, a servant, a thief, a soldier, a priest or a king:
    each of them is what he is because of what he does.

    So the wise men see action as it has really come to be. They are proficient in the fruits of action and they are seers of dependent origination(pratītyasamutpāda).

    The world exists because of causal actions, all things are produced by causal actions and all beings are governed and bound by causal actions. They are fixed like the rolling wheel of a cart, fixed by the pin of its axle shaft.

    A brahmin is as result of self-restraint, wholesome living and self-control. This is the essence of Brahmin.”

    -Buddha Shakyamuni

    (Does Buddha sound like a Native American chief?)

    Sorry to hear about your misfortune, I very well understand if you have some misgivings about Indians. Was the man who fired you a Gujarati by the way? Their merchant castes seem to be well adapted into Western doublespeak or newspeak environment.

    • Agree: Jatt Aryaa
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    @AltanBakshi

    Its impossible to know the exact byzantine logic of things, but I believe he was a Singh. Basically his division(security) was being investigated for not doing enough, so he thought to expose me on logs to indicate that he was in fact doing something, and additionally allowed him to replace me with someone on his own faction.

    In the end, I had some justice in that the owners of the company just basically terminated everyone in the division. I think, like me, they also realized that they had no idea what the hell was going on anymore and trying to determine who was at fault was too annoying, so they just nuked the entire division.

    Replies: @sher singh

    , @Jatt Aryaa
    @AltanBakshi

    Sri Krishna Ji stressed the same but life isn't about individualism.

    The Jati Varna relationship doesn't make sense outside of state patronage.

    Think about it as quota & distributed sovereignty.

    Anyway, Khalsa are pretty much the only Kshatriya left as only they have Kesh & Shastra।।

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾ।।ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ।।

  195. @AltanBakshi
    @Daniel Chieh

    Indian caste system is utter idiocy, someone who has never been a warrior or served in army is Kshatriya, even though he's a businessman and no one in his family has fought in centuries. Someone is brahmin even though he smokes and works as a taxi driver, it's just so idiotic and moronic that I have no word to describe it.


    "A brahmin is a brahmin because of what he does; a man who is not a brahmin is not a brahmin because of what he does.

    A farmer is a farmer because of what he does and a craftsman is a craftsman because of what he does.

    A merchant, a servant, a thief, a soldier, a priest or a king:
    each of them is what he is because of what he does.

    So the wise men see action as it has really come to be. They are proficient in the fruits of action and they are seers of dependent origination(pratītyasamutpāda).

    The world exists because of causal actions, all things are produced by causal actions and all beings are governed and bound by causal actions. They are fixed like the rolling wheel of a cart, fixed by the pin of its axle shaft.

    A brahmin is as result of self-restraint, wholesome living and self-control. This is the essence of Brahmin."

    -Buddha Shakyamuni

    (Does Buddha sound like a Native American chief?)

     

    Sorry to hear about your misfortune, I very well understand if you have some misgivings about Indians. Was the man who fired you a Gujarati by the way? Their merchant castes seem to be well adapted into Western doublespeak or newspeak environment.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @Jatt Aryaa

    Its impossible to know the exact byzantine logic of things, but I believe he was a Singh. Basically his division(security) was being investigated for not doing enough, so he thought to expose me on logs to indicate that he was in fact doing something, and additionally allowed him to replace me with someone on his own faction.

    In the end, I had some justice in that the owners of the company just basically terminated everyone in the division. I think, like me, they also realized that they had no idea what the hell was going on anymore and trying to determine who was at fault was too annoying, so they just nuked the entire division.

    • Replies: @sher singh
    @Daniel Chieh


    Singh
     
    That's unfortunate, irreligious Indians are some of the most self-hating, despicable beings I've seen.

    Now, when you say he was a Singh do you mean this:

    https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/1254097136310005761/EtemtxrD_400x400.jpg

    Or just a name which many rando tribes copy.

    If the first, then that's a communal issue and you can ask Karlin for my email.
    If the latter, then as you're a beef eater it's not our problem||

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾ।।ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ।।
  196. @EldnahYm
    @sher singh

    Sorry, I think turban wearing is a sign of foreignness and the worst sort of non-conformity. Such people should be banned from any sort of public work as a matter of principle.

    I have no problem with men carrying knives, although I think blacks should not be allowed.

    Replies: @Jatt Aryaa

    I said Sword not knife and anyway fuck what you think.

    You being right wing is literal anti conformity to what your society’s become.

    Pucker up for the hormones, sunshine.

    • Replies: @EldnahYm
    @Jatt Aryaa

    That's why I said "the worst sort" of non-conformity. Failing to conform to evil is a good thing. The Indian diaspora aren't doing that, quite the opposite.

  197. @AltanBakshi
    @Daniel Chieh

    Indian caste system is utter idiocy, someone who has never been a warrior or served in army is Kshatriya, even though he's a businessman and no one in his family has fought in centuries. Someone is brahmin even though he smokes and works as a taxi driver, it's just so idiotic and moronic that I have no word to describe it.


    "A brahmin is a brahmin because of what he does; a man who is not a brahmin is not a brahmin because of what he does.

    A farmer is a farmer because of what he does and a craftsman is a craftsman because of what he does.

    A merchant, a servant, a thief, a soldier, a priest or a king:
    each of them is what he is because of what he does.

    So the wise men see action as it has really come to be. They are proficient in the fruits of action and they are seers of dependent origination(pratītyasamutpāda).

    The world exists because of causal actions, all things are produced by causal actions and all beings are governed and bound by causal actions. They are fixed like the rolling wheel of a cart, fixed by the pin of its axle shaft.

    A brahmin is as result of self-restraint, wholesome living and self-control. This is the essence of Brahmin."

    -Buddha Shakyamuni

    (Does Buddha sound like a Native American chief?)

     

    Sorry to hear about your misfortune, I very well understand if you have some misgivings about Indians. Was the man who fired you a Gujarati by the way? Their merchant castes seem to be well adapted into Western doublespeak or newspeak environment.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @Jatt Aryaa

    Sri Krishna Ji stressed the same but life isn’t about individualism.

    The Jati Varna relationship doesn’t make sense outside of state patronage.

    Think about it as quota & distributed sovereignty.

    Anyway, Khalsa are pretty much the only Kshatriya left as only they have Kesh & Shastra।।

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾ।।ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ।।

  198. @Daniel Chieh
    @AltanBakshi

    Its impossible to know the exact byzantine logic of things, but I believe he was a Singh. Basically his division(security) was being investigated for not doing enough, so he thought to expose me on logs to indicate that he was in fact doing something, and additionally allowed him to replace me with someone on his own faction.

    In the end, I had some justice in that the owners of the company just basically terminated everyone in the division. I think, like me, they also realized that they had no idea what the hell was going on anymore and trying to determine who was at fault was too annoying, so they just nuked the entire division.

    Replies: @sher singh

    Singh

    That’s unfortunate, irreligious Indians are some of the most self-hating, despicable beings I’ve seen.

    Now, when you say he was a Singh do you mean this:

    Or just a name which many rando tribes copy.

    If the first, then that’s a communal issue and you can ask Karlin for my email.
    If the latter, then as you’re a beef eater it’s not our problem||

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾ।।ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ।।

  199. @Jatt Aryaa
    @EldnahYm

    I said Sword not knife and anyway fuck what you think.

    You being right wing is literal anti conformity to what your society's become.

    Pucker up for the hormones, sunshine.

    Replies: @EldnahYm

    That’s why I said “the worst sort” of non-conformity. Failing to conform to evil is a good thing. The Indian diaspora aren’t doing that, quite the opposite.

    • Agree: Jatt Aryaa
  200. Well, yeah.

    The Turban represents strength, duty & honour.

    Not gay rights & feminist harpies.

    There should be a private army (Khalsa) that serves the people and not the government।।

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾ।।ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ।।

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @Jatt Aryaa


    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikhism_and_sexual_orientation

    "Sikhism has no specific teachings about homosexuality and the Sikh holy scripture"
     

    Hey Sikh Bhai, is this true?

    Our Buddha Ji clearly stated that no Pandakas(homosexuals) in Sangha.

    Is it different with Sikh Gurus, did they say that they should be kept out of Sangha(religious community)?

    https://www.salzburgglobal.org/fileadmin/images/featurednews/lgbt/SukhdeepSingh_Delhi_Queer_Pride_2017_Credits-Kartik_Sharma_QGraphy_.jpg
    Sorry for pic, it's shameful(but funny) and one can probably find similar pics of heretical Buddhists and Christians.

    Replies: @Jatt Aryaa

  201. @Jatt Aryaa
    Well, yeah.

    The Turban represents strength, duty & honour.

    Not gay rights & feminist harpies.

    There should be a private army (Khalsa) that serves the people and not the government।।

    https://youtu.be/vgOp03-EmPc

    https://twitter.com/iJasOberoi/status/1376749884745736194?s=20

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾ।।ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ।।

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikhism_and_sexual_orientation

    “Sikhism has no specific teachings about homosexuality and the Sikh holy scripture”

    Hey Sikh Bhai, is this true?

    Our Buddha Ji clearly stated that no Pandakas(homosexuals) in Sangha.

    Is it different with Sikh Gurus, did they say that they should be kept out of Sangha(religious community)?

    [MORE]
    Sorry for pic, it’s shameful(but funny) and one can probably find similar pics of heretical Buddhists and Christians.

    • Agree: Jatt Aryaa
    • Replies: @Jatt Aryaa
    @AltanBakshi

    Wikipedia also claims Khalsa is about gender and caste equality.

    Even though women are women, and initiated separately & many Dals (battalions) are one tribe.

    Wikipedia also claims Kirpan means knife.

    This is anglo nonsense, Gandus can't take Amrit.

    Sikhi just recognizes the third gender (Kinnar) as a separate community.

    Key word separate

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

  202. @AltanBakshi
    @Jatt Aryaa


    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikhism_and_sexual_orientation

    "Sikhism has no specific teachings about homosexuality and the Sikh holy scripture"
     

    Hey Sikh Bhai, is this true?

    Our Buddha Ji clearly stated that no Pandakas(homosexuals) in Sangha.

    Is it different with Sikh Gurus, did they say that they should be kept out of Sangha(religious community)?

    https://www.salzburgglobal.org/fileadmin/images/featurednews/lgbt/SukhdeepSingh_Delhi_Queer_Pride_2017_Credits-Kartik_Sharma_QGraphy_.jpg
    Sorry for pic, it's shameful(but funny) and one can probably find similar pics of heretical Buddhists and Christians.

    Replies: @Jatt Aryaa

    Wikipedia also claims Khalsa is about gender and caste equality.

    Even though women are women, and initiated separately & many Dals (battalions) are one tribe.

    Wikipedia also claims Kirpan means knife.

    This is anglo nonsense, Gandus can’t take Amrit.

    Sikhi just recognizes the third gender (Kinnar) as a separate community.

    Key word separate

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @Jatt Aryaa

    It's wrong to call them Kinnars, because there are already Kinnars, Himalayan people living in Kinnar district Himachal Pradesh and the mythological Kinnars.
    They should get another name. Weren't they always called just Hijra? Why they are now wanting a new name for themselves?

    Btw Buddha said that there are four genders, eunuchs are their own gender after all, but only man and woman are good genders and capable of understanding Dharma.

  203. @Jatt Aryaa
    @AltanBakshi

    Wikipedia also claims Khalsa is about gender and caste equality.

    Even though women are women, and initiated separately & many Dals (battalions) are one tribe.

    Wikipedia also claims Kirpan means knife.

    This is anglo nonsense, Gandus can't take Amrit.

    Sikhi just recognizes the third gender (Kinnar) as a separate community.

    Key word separate

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    It’s wrong to call them Kinnars, because there are already Kinnars, Himalayan people living in Kinnar district Himachal Pradesh and the mythological Kinnars.
    They should get another name. Weren’t they always called just Hijra? Why they are now wanting a new name for themselves?

    Btw Buddha said that there are four genders, eunuchs are their own gender after all, but only man and woman are good genders and capable of understanding Dharma.

Comments are closed.

Subscribe to All Anatoly Karlin Comments via RSS