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From The Guardian:

What does it mean to be genetically jewish?

I don’t know why Teh Grauniad doesn’t capitalize “Jewish”…

DNA tests have been used in Israel to verify a person’s Jewishness. This brings a bigger question: what does it mean to be genetically Jewish? And can you prove religious identity scientifically?

Oscar Schwartz

When my parents sent their saliva away to a genetic testing company late last year and were informed via email a few weeks later that they are both “100% Ashkenazi Jewish”, it struck me as slightly odd. Most people I know who have done DNA tests received ancestry results that correspond to geographical areas — Chinese, British, West African. Jewish, by comparison, is typically parsed as a religious or cultural identity. I wondered how this was traceable in my parents’ DNA.

After arriving in Eastern Europe around a millennia ago, the company’s website explained, Jewish communities remained segregated, by force and by custom, mixing only occasionally with local populations. Isolation and intermarriage

“intramarriage”

slowly narrowed the gene pool, which now gives modern Jews of European descent, like my family, a set of identifiable genetic variations that set them apart from other European populations at a microscopic level. …

But still, there was something disconcerting about our Jewishness being “confirmed” by a biological test. After all, the reason my grandparents had to leave the towns and villages of their ancestors was because of ethno-nationalism emboldened by a racialized conception of Jewishness as something that exists “in the blood”.

Author Oscar Schwartz

The raw memory of this racism made any suggestion of Jewish ethnicity slightly taboo in my family. If I ever mentioned that someone “looked Jewish” my grandmother would respond, “Oh really? And what exactly does a Jew look like?” …

In February of this year, the Israeli newspaper Haaretz, reported that the Chief Rabbinate of Israel, the peak religious authority in the country, had been requesting DNA tests to confirm Jewishness before issuing some marriage licenses. …

Those being asked to take these tests, Farber told me, are mostly Russian speaking Israelis, members of an almost 1 million strong immigrant community who began moving to Israel from countries of the former Soviet Union in the 1990s. Due to the fact that Jewish life was forcefully suppressed during the Soviet era, many members of this community lack the necessary documentation to prove Jewishness through matrilineal descent.

And some of the Russian newcomers maybe aren’t Jewish through matrilineal descent. Ariel Sharon wanted to import a lot of voters who would identify with Ariel Sharon, and it helped make him Prime Minister of Israel.

I know that these days we are supposed to conceive of Russians as the opposite of Jews, but these days there are more than a few people in Russia, Israel, and Valley Village, CA who are mixtures.

… He explained that the Rabbinate are not using a generalized Jewish ancestry test, but one that screens for a specific variant on the mitochondrial DNA – DNA that is passed down through the mother – that can be found almost exclusively in Ashkenazi Jews. …

In recent years, a number of high-profile commentators have appropriated these scientific insights to push the idea that genetics can determine who we are socially, none more controversially than the former New York Times science writer, Nicholas Wade. In his 2014 book, A Troublesome Inheritance: Genes, Race and Human History, Wade argues that genetic differences in human populations manifest in predictable social differences between those groups.

His book was strongly denounced by almost all prominent researchers in the field as a shoddy incarnation of race science, but the idea that our DNA can determine who we are in some social sense has also crept into more mainstream perspectives.

You might think that the New York Times Science section is “mainstream,” but what Schwartz means by “mainstream” is “Jewish:”

In an op-ed published in the New York Times last year, the Harvard geneticist David Reich argued that although genetics does not substantiate any racist stereotypes, differences in genetic ancestry do correlate to many of today’s racial constructs. “I have deep sympathy for the concern that genetic discoveries could be misused to justify racism,” he wrote. “But as a geneticist I also know that it is simply no longer possible to ignore average genetic differences among ‘races’.”

… But Jessica Mozersky, assistant professor of medicine at Washington University in St Louis, explained that part of the reason why the Rabbinate might be comfortable with using DNA to confirm Jewishness is because of an existing familiarity with genetic testing in the community to screen for rare genetic conditions. “Because Ashkenazi communities have a history of marrying in, they have this high risk for certain heritable diseases and have established genetic screening programs,” she explained. “So this has made it less fraught and problematic to talk about Jewish genetics in Ashkenazi communities.”

In fact, the Orthodox Jewish community is so comfortable with the idea of genetic identity that they have even put together their own international genetic database called Dor Yeshorim, which acts as both a dating service and public health initiative. When two members of the community are being set-up for marriage, Mozersky explained, the matchmaker will check whether or not they are genetically compatible on the DNA database. “This means that the notion of genetics as a part of identity is deeply interwoven in many ways with communal life,” she said.

This is something I could identify with. When I was 16 and attending a Jewish day-school in Melbourne, Australia, we had what was called “mouth-swab day”. Everyone in my grade gathered on the basketball courts to provide spit samples that were sent off and screened for Tay-Sachs disease, a rare inherited disorder significantly more common among Ashkenazi Jews that eats away at the nerve cells in the brain and spinal cord. As we waited in line, we joked that this was our punishment for our ancestors marrying their cousins.

 
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  1. It sounds to me like young Oscar is noticing.

    He’s just trying to find the right verbal formulation to avoid another slapping from his granny.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    I notice that he used the term ethno nationalism. Seems the alt right has made them sit up and take notice.
    , @Lo
    You don't want to cross Jewish matriarchy.
  2. Cue “Dueling Banjos”.

    • LOL: ThreeCranes
    • Replies: @Father O'Hara
    Or dueling violins.
  3. If a 100% Ashkenazi Jewish woman marries a gentile, the children are all Jewish. Even though they are only 50% Ashkenazi. And that would be true if one of the daughters married a gentile, the children would be only 25% Ashkenazi, but still Jewish. And so on.

    That’s why you can’t tell who’s Jewish by looking. I went out with a woman who identified as Jewish, and she looked quite Jewish, and by Jewish law was indeed Jewish. Except that she was adopted into a Jewish family, so who knows what her genetic heritage was. Her sisters, on the other hand, looked like blonde shiksas, because their Jewish father had married a gentile, and then had her convert to Judaism.

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    Edge cases. There are Jewish phenotypes. Not every Jew fits them, and of course converts don’t, but enough do that “looks Jewish” is a common phrase, whereas “looks Christian” isn’t one.
    , @Dieter Kief
    Cases like your example exist, but the Jewish phenotype exists too. It's a phenotype, not the prototype of Jewishness. In the latter case, your example could be used to disapprove of the term, I'd concede this, in the former case, it is nothing but an exception to the rule. - Now think of Barbra Streisand & Groucho Marx. See - there are not only exceptions, there is a rule, too!
    , @Thulean Friend
    You shouldn't blindly adopt jewish racial slurs for blonde women. And if you are, use terms like kikes at the very least to even the balance for those who use it.
    , @Jus' Sayin'...
    Many years ago, when I asked a Jewish friend what the word "mamzer" meant, he replied "bastard". Later I learned that "bastard" captures neither the denotation nor connotation of "mamzer" as it is used in the Torah, Mishna, and Talmud. In those sources a mamzer is essentially the offspring of any illegitimate union between a Jew and a non-Jew or two Jews. Mamzers and their descendants are denied full admission to the congregation of Israel for ten generations, i.e., effectively forever. By Halachic law, unless a Jewish woman is legitimately married to a man who is a natural born, non-mamzer Jew or a non-Jew whose conversion to Judaism is rabbinicaly recognized her offspring will be mamzerim. Even in the latter case, I believe that many rabbis would argue that the offspring are mamzerim. So mtDNA may not be sufficient criteria for establishing whether a person is truly and fully a Jew. I'm curious how Israel's current Sanhedrin settles these issues but not curious enough to do the research.
    , @Anon

    If a 100% Ashkenazi Jewish woman marries a gentile, the children are all Jewish. Even though they are only 50% Ashkenazi. And that would be true if one of the daughters married a gentile, the children would be only 25% Ashkenazi, but still Jewish. And so on.

    That’s why you can’t tell who’s Jewish by looking
     
    Note the genetic requirement. Its merely inclusionary instead of exclusionary.

    That is, Jewish group inclusion requires the presence of certain genetics instead of their exclusion - the difference of no difference.

    The Jewish racial definition is a slightly different racial self definition than that of Whites and yet it is still functional racial definition and identity to the point that Jews have a much higher risk of inbreeding disease than Whites.

    Jews are hating those who racially self-define differently. Yet, racial self definition is still at the core of Jewish identity. As I stated, its the difference of no difference. Jewish targeting of White racial self definition is not rooted in political principle but instead rooted in hate for the group that they have carved out their propaganda to specifically target.

    The Orthodox political core of Judaism rarely intermarries. Unrelated individuals in that group most often look genetically closer than do I and my siblings. It follows that I can tell who is Jewish 95% of the time. Your naXalt example is bullshit, Jews like to appeal to it, but it doesn't apply to 95% or more of the Jewish group. So GTFO of here with your utter nonsense. My Jewdar is well honed. 5% of the time I cannot tell, and yet when that individual ages most of the time their Jewish features will start to reveal once the babyfat falls off of their face.
    , @Alec Leamas

    That’s why you can’t tell who’s Jewish by looking.
     
    One can guess successfully for pure (say, >90%) Ashkenazi ancestry at a rate much higher than random chance. Add in the observations of mannerisms and that rate is going to skyrocket.

    I think that one's ability to do so correlates with living in proximity to Jews - being from East Coast ethnic neighborhoods dealing with typical Jews is probably a requisite for a high success rate. I think our Jews are less likely to have out-married, perhaps because of strong established Jewish institutions. There are still Jewish Summer Camps here - the tacit goal seems to be to promote Jewish children socializing with one another and dating one another early in life (Jewish kids are under social pressure to date semi-seriously by the time they and their peers start having Bar Mitzvahs).

    Mischlings are difficult though, because the Jewish "type" really seems to fully dissipate after one mix - it's almost like those Ashkenazi genes are all wound up and with one exogenous mix they dissipate entirely. Paul Newman is a good example of this.
    , @AnonAnon

    Except that she was adopted into a Jewish family, so who knows what her genetic heritage was.
     
    From the few Jewish adoptees I know, I believe Jews are (were) very good about adopting the babies of fellow Jews who couldn’t raise them themselves so it’s likely your date was legitimately Jewish. I grew up in the northeast, went to a college with a large Jewish population, lived in the NYC metro area for a long period, and developed decent “Jewdar” - if someone looks Jewish to you then they likely are.
    , @Mr. XYZ

    If a 100% Ashkenazi Jewish woman marries a gentile, the children are all Jewish. Even though they are only 50% Ashkenazi. And that would be true if one of the daughters married a gentile, the children would be only 25% Ashkenazi, but still Jewish. And so on.
     
    Maybe that's an argument in favor of changing the rules for determining Jewish status, eh? After all, we as a 21st century First World society reject sexism, no?
  4. Anonymous[357] • Disclaimer says:

    His book was strongly denounced by almost all prominent researchers in the field as a shoddy incarnation of race science

    Was Wade’s book shoddy?

    As we waited in line, we joked that this was our punishment for our ancestors marrying their cousins.

    It is interesting that Jews are never disparaged by others for being inbred, even though they are probably more closely related genetically to each other than rural Americans are to each other.

    • Replies: @jon

    It is interesting that Jews are never disparaged by others for being inbred, even though they are probably more closely related genetically to each other than rural Americans are to each other.
     
    You've never seen Schlomo the Slack Jawed Yockel?
    , @Travis
    so true. Ashkenazi Jews are all closer genetically to each other than most Americans are to their fourth cousins. On average a white American will shares about .20% of their DNA with a fourth cousin, while Ashkenazi Jews will share 1.5% of their DNA with a fourth Cousin

    My best friend is half Ashkenazi, his mother was jewish.. When he did 23andme it listed his 1,500 closest relatives....99% were Jewish despite having more known Paternal relatives, his paternal family had settled in America prior to the 1800s. Yet while he shared .8% of his DNA with a paternal third cousin , he shared .8% of his DNA with hundreds of Ashkenazi Jews who were distant cousins, on his maternal side. His actual third cousins on his Ashkenazi side shared 7% of their DNA with him , more typical of a first cousin. Any Jew who tested at 23anmde will realize how inbred they are, as second and third cousins will appear as first cousins and first cousins will be predicted Aunts and Uncles....

    Usually Americans with deep roots in America will find lots of potential fourth cousins at 23andme. Although 25% of your fourth cousins will share zero DNA with you. It is interesting to see how many of my matches , who are fourth cousins , do not share any DNA with my sister. And vice verse, about 25% of her matches share zero DNA with me. Thus a typical American will not even share any DNA with a confirmed fifth cousin, while Ashkenazi Jews will share a minimum of .2% with all Ashkenazi Jews.
    , @Jack D
    When hillbillies marry their cousins, the dumb get dumber. When Jews marry their cousins, the smart get smarter.
    , @Thea
    But there are so many other reasons to disparage them already.
    , @bored identity
    Y'all should've learned by now that "Who Controls The Banjo, Controls The Future; Who Controls The Present, Controls The Banjo."

    https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8323/8102579943_ee93d35cb7_b.jpg

    ( And Robin Williams' e-tarded doppelganger ain't that one.)
    , @bored identity
    https://i.postimg.cc/cC68LG4P/who-whom-controls-the-banjo.jpg

    ...

    https://i.postimg.cc/wvqwFM0J/WHOO-WHOOM-CONTROLS-THE-BANJO.jpg


    ...


    https://i.postimg.cc/02Smhx6B/TDZAK-KNOWS.jpg
  5. You might think that the New York Times Science section is “mainstream,” but what Schwartz means by “mainstream” is “Jewish:”

    In Ayn Rand’s words, a “stagnant swamp”.

    “Because Ashkenazi communities have a history of marrying in…”

    You could solve this problem by settling for perfectly good Sephardic mates. But nobody wants to settle.

    Haim Saban’s girlfriend’s Polish-born mother called him “that black animal”, and threatened to jump to her death if he entered their house.

    When I was 16 and attending a Jewish day-school in Melbourne, Australia

    The joke down under is that Sydney is a warm city with cold Jews, while Melbourne is a cold city with warm Jews.

    Canada must have her own stereotypes regarding Toronto and Montreal.

    • Replies: @bigdicknick
    "You could solve this problem by settling for perfectly good Sephardic mates. But nobody wants to settle."

    Not true anymore(if it was ever widely true.) tons of people in Israel are mixed. there are barely middle eastern jews in the US, but they also often intermarry. Middle eastern jews are also often visually indistinguishable from Ashkenazi jews.
    , @Jack D
    There aren't many Polish born mothers left. Sephardi Ashkenazi marriages in Israel are super common.
  6. Once again from Into the Darkness:

    Another misconception is that the Nazis regard the Jews as a distinct race. To be sure, that term is often used in popular writings and many ignorant Nazis may believe it, but their scientific men do not thus defy obvious anthropology. They therefore refer to the Jews as a Mischrasse. By this they mean a group which, though self-consciously distinct, is made up of several widely diverse racial strains.

    Or as others have said, neither a race nor a religion, nor even an ethnicity, but a tribe.

    It is because most of those strains are deemed too alien to the Germanic blend that the Nazis passed the so-called Nuremberg Laws prohibiting intermarriage between Jews and Germans.

    Without attempting to appraise this highly controversial racial doctrine, it is fair to say that Nazi Germany’s eugenic program is the most ambitious and far-reaching experiment in eugenics ever attempted by any nation.

    Perhaps until now.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    Stoddard's Racial Realities in Europe devoted only a paragraph or two to Jews.
    , @Anonymous

    By this they mean a group which, though self-consciously distinct, is made up of several widely diverse racial strains.
     
    Don't Jews themselves describe Jews as such: they say that they are basically half Arab and half Italian (although there was no such thing as "Italy" back then).
    , @Lot
    “‘the most ambitious and far-reaching experiment in eugenics ever attempted by any nation.’

    Perhaps until now”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aktion_T4
    , @Hail

    a group which, though self-consciously distinct, is made up of several widely diverse racial strains
     
    Anyway, with a much stronger Semitic strain in the genepool than anywhere else in core Europe. Hence the well-known, exaggeratedly Semitic caricatures.
  7. @Buzz Mohawk
    Once again from Into the Darkness:

    Another misconception is that the Nazis regard the Jews as a distinct race. To be sure, that term is often used in popular writings and many ignorant Nazis may believe it, but their scientific men do not thus defy obvious anthropology. They therefore refer to the Jews as a Mischrasse. By this they mean a group which, though self-consciously distinct, is made up of several widely diverse racial strains.
     
    Or as others have said, neither a race nor a religion, nor even an ethnicity, but a tribe.

    It is because most of those strains are deemed too alien to the Germanic blend that the Nazis passed the so-called Nuremberg Laws prohibiting intermarriage between Jews and Germans.

    Without attempting to appraise this highly controversial racial doctrine, it is fair to say that Nazi Germany’s eugenic program is the most ambitious and far-reaching experiment in eugenics ever attempted by any nation.
     

    Perhaps until now.

    Stoddard’s Racial Realities in Europe devoted only a paragraph or two to Jews.

  8. Anonymous[357] • Disclaimer says:
    @Buzz Mohawk
    Once again from Into the Darkness:

    Another misconception is that the Nazis regard the Jews as a distinct race. To be sure, that term is often used in popular writings and many ignorant Nazis may believe it, but their scientific men do not thus defy obvious anthropology. They therefore refer to the Jews as a Mischrasse. By this they mean a group which, though self-consciously distinct, is made up of several widely diverse racial strains.
     
    Or as others have said, neither a race nor a religion, nor even an ethnicity, but a tribe.

    It is because most of those strains are deemed too alien to the Germanic blend that the Nazis passed the so-called Nuremberg Laws prohibiting intermarriage between Jews and Germans.

    Without attempting to appraise this highly controversial racial doctrine, it is fair to say that Nazi Germany’s eugenic program is the most ambitious and far-reaching experiment in eugenics ever attempted by any nation.
     

    Perhaps until now.

    By this they mean a group which, though self-consciously distinct, is made up of several widely diverse racial strains.

    Don’t Jews themselves describe Jews as such: they say that they are basically half Arab and half Italian (although there was no such thing as “Italy” back then).

    • Replies: @Lot
    “basically half Arab”

    Thankfully not.
    , @Kevin Brook
    Western Jews including the Jews of Italy, Poland, Greece, and Spain are not so much genetically Italian as was thought ten years ago, but moreso Greek, similar to modern inhabitants of Crete and Sicily. In the olden days, southern Italy (called "Magna Graecia") was already heavily of Greek origin, and Western Jews have significant genetic sharing with Greeks and Southern Italians but not much with Northern Italians and only moderate overlap with Central Italians.

    mtDNA H47 was found in ancient Rome but also in Armenia and the Levant. Other than H47, none of the mtDNA lineages among ancient Roman samples match Ashkenazic mtDNA lineages, so far.

    It would also be inaccurate to describe Jews, or Levantines generally, as genetically half-"Arab", even though some Western Jewish genetic lines here and there (like mtDNA R0a2m) were ultimately Arabian. I don't consider Lebanese people to be true Arabs, and genetically they aren't very Arabian.

    Greek Romaniote Jews are approximately 40.6% Levantine, Sephardic Jews are approximately 38.2% Levantine, and Ashkenazic Jews are approximately 35% Levantine, on average, when we use the ancient samples Levant_LBN_Roman as a basis of comparison. The Ashkenazic gene pool got diluted in the past millennia from occasional intermarriage with Germans and Poles.

    The article in The Guardian is problematic due to its leftist ideological biases and for taking Professor Shlomo Sand seriously. According to his April 14, 2019 interview with Mediapart.fr, Sand is currently writing a French novel that argues against the notion of genetic Jewishness. He is still in denial of the significant indigenous roots of Western Jews in Israel.

    I'm also disappointed by David B. Goldstein's denial of the use of DNA testing to confirm ethnic Jewish heritage and transform understanding of identity.

    The article's examples given of confirming Western Jewish ancestors for ambiguous Israeli immigrants from Russia are mtDNA tests (based on the 4 most common Ashkenazic mtDNA lines) and genetic disease tests. Neither of those is ideal; my method of confirming autosomal DNA segments of Mediterranean character shared with Jews through triangulation and phasing is the most reliable method. Let's say a particular DNA segment has the following matches to it: a Sicilian, a Spaniard, 2 Peruvians, 1 Jew from Turkey, and 15 Ashkenazic Jews. I've seen many matchups like that over the years. What can we say about the ancestor of that segment? That's right, it was a Sephardic ancestor with 99% certainty and only about a 1% chance of being an ethnic Spanish ancestor. Genetic evidence doesn't usually automatically confer citizenship in Israel or Spain nor membership in a synagogue but it's knowledge many people are seeking.

    I also dislike this article's attacks on Greeks and Northwestern Europeans who express interest in their distant ancestors and promote their indigenous status within Europe. At least, in this case, the writer didn't have a double standard for Jews versus Christians in that regard. But he got it wrong in both cases.
    , @Logan
    There's always been an Italy, as a geographical region. Though Italy as a mostly united nation or state has existed only intermittently,
  9. the reason my grandparents had to leave the towns and villages of their ancestors

    Funny he should mention. I’ve just been reading Mme. Ragosin’s Russian Jews and Gentiles and to say the least, it’s eye-opening. It’s also long, though (I’m only halfway through) but so far I can provide a tl;dr in French. It’s very simple: “Plus ça change…”

  10. Anonymous[312] • Disclaimer says:

    ‘And can you prove religious identity scientifically?

    Oscar Schwartz’

    Chutzpah.

  11. Anonymous[312] • Disclaimer says:
    @Hugh
    It sounds to me like young Oscar is noticing.

    He’s just trying to find the right verbal formulation to avoid another slapping from his granny.

    I notice that he used the term ethno nationalism. Seems the alt right has made them sit up and take notice.

    • Replies: @guest
    No, that's an oxymoron they use to delegitimize nationalism. Though I guess they might not bother delegitimizing if the National Question had not been raised.
  12. As we waited in line, we joked that this was our punishment for our ancestors marrying their cousins.

    So who’s more inbred, a Jew or a Muslim? And why did inbreeding work out so well for the Jews and so poorly for the Muslims?

    • Replies: @Daniel H
    >>So who’s more inbred, a Jew or a Muslim? And why did inbreeding work out so well for the Jews and so poorly for the Muslims?

    Good point, and the HBD people don't/can't explain this. Apparently, the entire Jewish Ashkanazi Jewish population is descended from a core group of approximately 2,000 individuals who originated in northern Italy in the 12th century. With such a small founding population, isn't a great deal of close kin breeding almost guaranteed? Yet, overall, this population doesn't seem to be adversely affected by this phenomenon (Tay Sachs, notwithstanding). But recently I was perusing stories and looking at photos of Yemeni Jews who have been evacuated from Yemen over the past 30 years (a small community that by necessity had to marry close kin). They don't look right. Something looks off. I wouldn't be surprised that they have low mean IQ. Anyway, I don't know anything about genetics or development biology.
    , @notanon

    So who’s more inbred, a Jew or a Muslim? And why did inbreeding work out so well for the Jews and so poorly for the Muslims?
     
    Jews were inbred - when they moved back to the West they adopted the western marriage model which fixed most of it.
  13. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:

    To be an Ashkenazi Jew is to be both of mixed race and to be to one extent or another a product of eugenic breeding yourself. But they get very upset at the idea that anyone else would do likewise.

    Whites must above all not be allowed to breed themselves smarter.

  14. Apologize for off topic, but does anybody from NYC know what’s up with the new rent control laws?

    It seems like, for a long time, developers and other real estate players have been happy to pack more and more immigrants into NYC to prop up profits and real estate values. Now they are shocked to find out that the people they brought in don’t vote for the developers’ interests…

  15. Anon[322] • Disclaimer says:

    More and more discussions of “race science” and denunciations of it are doing so by getting down into the scientific weeds. Previously it was considered to be platforming of evil to even describe the science at that level.

    You were supposed to do a lateral and start talking about Francis Galton (who was for some reason I never understood a bad guy) and Hitler, and then segue into a six degrees of Kevin Bacon maneuver to associate everything with the Pioneer Fund.

    William Saletan was an early example, who learned his lesson, but more recently Eric Levitz of New York Magazine is a writer who seems weirdly familiar with stuff that you’d almost have to be a regular reader of iSteve to know.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    Almost is superfluous.

    Steve is read, by proxy if absolutely necessary.
    , @Dieter Kief

    William Saletan was an early example, who learned his lesson, but more recently Eric Levitz of New York Magazine is a writer who seems weirdly familiar with stuff that you’d almost have to be a regular reader of iSteve to know.
     
    Eric Levitz has been mentioned before as iSteve-knowledgeable. The article about Steve Saiiler in the New York Magazine wasn't all bad either. Now there is a depiction of Steven Pinker's allies, so to speak, with Steve Sailer graphically quite near to Steven Pinker:

    Seven Pinker's right-wing, alt-right & hereditarian connections version 3 with 100% more Koch is here.

    https://www.pinkerite.com/2019/04/steven-pinkers-right-wing-alt-right-and.html …

    , @guest
    "for some reason I never understood a bad guy"

    Because "eugenics." Which is a dirty word among people who also advocate for a woman's right to murder her children to avoid stretchmarks.
  16. Well the good news is that this guy no longer lives in Australia
    Sorry to be so parochial ( not really )

  17. So its fine if David Reich says so but not if gentile Nicholas Wade says so.

    Anyway I enjoy the arguments as to how you define how someone is British, I just say 23andme can tell you, riles the lefties up no end.

  18. @Buzz Mohawk
    Once again from Into the Darkness:

    Another misconception is that the Nazis regard the Jews as a distinct race. To be sure, that term is often used in popular writings and many ignorant Nazis may believe it, but their scientific men do not thus defy obvious anthropology. They therefore refer to the Jews as a Mischrasse. By this they mean a group which, though self-consciously distinct, is made up of several widely diverse racial strains.
     
    Or as others have said, neither a race nor a religion, nor even an ethnicity, but a tribe.

    It is because most of those strains are deemed too alien to the Germanic blend that the Nazis passed the so-called Nuremberg Laws prohibiting intermarriage between Jews and Germans.

    Without attempting to appraise this highly controversial racial doctrine, it is fair to say that Nazi Germany’s eugenic program is the most ambitious and far-reaching experiment in eugenics ever attempted by any nation.
     

    Perhaps until now.

    “‘the most ambitious and far-reaching experiment in eugenics ever attempted by any nation.’

    Perhaps until now”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aktion_T4

    • Replies: @Redneck farmer
    Look at the amount of money your state spends on Medicaid and Special Education for "developmentally disabled" individuals. You'll find yourself demanding aktion!
  19. @Anonymous

    By this they mean a group which, though self-consciously distinct, is made up of several widely diverse racial strains.
     
    Don't Jews themselves describe Jews as such: they say that they are basically half Arab and half Italian (although there was no such thing as "Italy" back then).

    “basically half Arab”

    Thankfully not.

    • Replies: @dearieme
    Probably more precise to say "half Palestinian" or "half Levantine" or even "half Canaanite".
  20. @Anon7
    If a 100% Ashkenazi Jewish woman marries a gentile, the children are all Jewish. Even though they are only 50% Ashkenazi. And that would be true if one of the daughters married a gentile, the children would be only 25% Ashkenazi, but still Jewish. And so on.

    That's why you can't tell who's Jewish by looking. I went out with a woman who identified as Jewish, and she looked quite Jewish, and by Jewish law was indeed Jewish. Except that she was adopted into a Jewish family, so who knows what her genetic heritage was. Her sisters, on the other hand, looked like blonde shiksas, because their Jewish father had married a gentile, and then had her convert to Judaism.

    Edge cases. There are Jewish phenotypes. Not every Jew fits them, and of course converts don’t, but enough do that “looks Jewish” is a common phrase, whereas “looks Christian” isn’t one.

    • Replies: @Mr McKenna

    “looks Jewish” is a common phrase, whereas “looks Christian” isn’t one.
     
    The hell you say!

    https://i.ibb.co/2jpWvft/White-American-Family-1950s.png
    , @Reg Cæsar

    “looks Jewish” is a common phrase, whereas “looks Christian” isn’t one.
     
    When Dani Shapiro told her father's other daughter that DNA showed that they weren't half-sisters at all (she was conceived by an until-then anonymous sperm "donor"), the other woman said she always suspected something. "You looked so... Christian."

    She certainly does.

    https://danishapiro.com/


    https://www.publishersweekly.com/images/cached/ARTICLE_PHOTO/photo/000/000/059/59369-v1-600x.JPG
    , @Anon7
    I agree that there is something to the idea that there are people who "look Jewish". An important part of the effect is that Jews do not actively proselytize; HBD rules. In fact, rabbis are required to seriously ask three separate times if the person really wants to convert.

    Historically, Jews converting to Christianity is a bit fraught. Jews call it "geshmat". The root for the word means "annihilation" or "apostasy". According to the incomparable Leo Rosten, there is a Bulgarian proverb that says "When you baptize a Jew, hold him under for five minutes."

    Here's another story:

    On a bitterly cold, snowy, dreadful night in a Polish town, old Salkowitz, feeling that his time had come, called to his wife. "Shurele, please, send someone to the priest and tell him to come right away - I am dying!"
    "The priest? You must have a fever! You mean the rabbi."
    "I mean the priest!" snapped Salkowitz.
    "May God protect us! Are you secretly geshmat?"
    "No, no; but why disturb the rabbi on a night like this?"
    , @ScarletNumber

    “looks Christian” isn’t [a common phrase]
     
    True, but you can notice someone is Christian because they look like a nationality that is traditionally Christian. Also, the term WASP has fallen out of favor but they have a look about them as well.

    Speaking of which, I used to work with a woman who looked Jewish and had a traditional Jewish last name. When she mentioned visiting her parents one December I asked if she still got gelt. She gave me a puzzled look and she had no idea what I was talking about. It turns out that her mother wasn't Jewish so she wasn't, and they celebrated Christmas, Easter, et al. Although, when she was younger her paternal grandfather did give her gelt, except the term wasn't used.
    , @Dmitry
    I can often identify Jews (for example, Jewish celebrities), without prior knowledge.

    However, pure Jewish races, themselves are 3-4 different races even in Russia (in Israel, there are dozens of other Jewish races, most are dark brown, and some even black).


    -

    For example, in Russia - Bukharan Jews are brown (girl on left) and look the same as Muslim nationalities of their home region. While Ashkenazi Jews (on right this is Jewish oligarch Roman Abramovich) can be appear from white to brown.

    https://www.instagram.com/p/p8xW4iwikq

    ^ It's two different Jewish races.


    While Armenian Jews, look the same as Armenian Christian population to my eyes: On right is Armenian Christian girl and on left is an Armenian Jewess. Both Armenian Christians and Armenian Jews - it looks externally like the same race.

    https://www.instagram.com/p/BJOWjBAgs3J/

    -

    While secular modern Ashkenazi Jews in Russian, intermarried and adopt to their host area. If you look at the secular Jewish youth camps in Siberia nowadays - they mostly don't look like different race anymore (much of the Ashkenazi population in Russia, has been partially swallowed)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rr5r2JWqOpY

  21. @Dave Pinsen
    Edge cases. There are Jewish phenotypes. Not every Jew fits them, and of course converts don’t, but enough do that “looks Jewish” is a common phrase, whereas “looks Christian” isn’t one.

    “looks Jewish” is a common phrase, whereas “looks Christian” isn’t one.

    The hell you say!

    • Agree: jim jones, HammerJack
    • Replies: @Desiderius
    Yeah, but that's kinder, kirche, kuche Kristianity. You don't play nicely with nuclear weapons (theoretically*), so out you go!

    * - the first (and only - see, it worked!) nukes were dropped on the heart of Japanese Christianity to get a head start
    , @Prodigal son
    Do Mexicans look Christian ? How about Filipinos 80% of Blacks are Christian , just 70% of white Americans are Christian. Half the Christians in America today are not even white.
    , @Jonathan Mason

    The hell you say!
     
    They look German.

    http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-_qiupxjpFhQ/USAcKq2XzQI/AAAAAAAAyWg/8wcEVL0Z3fk/s1600/is-gwyneth-paltrow-jewish.jpg

    Jewish actress.
    , @AnotherDad
    Well, there's your problem right there--two kids.

    There ought to be two or three more kids on that fence rail and the mom bulging with a bun in the oven.
    , @Twodees Partain
    Hmmmm....I'd say that they look Mormon. Mormons ain't exactly Christian, are they?
    , @Alden
    Might be Mormons Universalists or Quakers.
    , @bored identity
    And never forget what grandma used to say:

    More flossing, less jew's harping will provide the nation with a long and prosperous dental hygiene records.

    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/9d/3f/d3/9d3fd33a9a404a393c79ae0053267928.jpg
  22. what if the national socialists had year 2019 lab equipment and checked everybody like in the recent battlestar galactica where they were checking all the humans to see if they were cylons.

    where do you draw the line with SNPs. how many middle eastern SNPs would you need to have to be the outgroup?

    also i wonder if you will be able to identify mormons and amish this way after a few more generations of group isolation and expansion.

  23. @Lot
    “‘the most ambitious and far-reaching experiment in eugenics ever attempted by any nation.’

    Perhaps until now”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aktion_T4

    Look at the amount of money your state spends on Medicaid and Special Education for “developmentally disabled” individuals. You’ll find yourself demanding aktion!

    • Replies: @Lot
    That’s Not Punny!
  24. @Anonymous

    By this they mean a group which, though self-consciously distinct, is made up of several widely diverse racial strains.
     
    Don't Jews themselves describe Jews as such: they say that they are basically half Arab and half Italian (although there was no such thing as "Italy" back then).

    Western Jews including the Jews of Italy, Poland, Greece, and Spain are not so much genetically Italian as was thought ten years ago, but moreso Greek, similar to modern inhabitants of Crete and Sicily. In the olden days, southern Italy (called “Magna Graecia”) was already heavily of Greek origin, and Western Jews have significant genetic sharing with Greeks and Southern Italians but not much with Northern Italians and only moderate overlap with Central Italians.

    mtDNA H47 was found in ancient Rome but also in Armenia and the Levant. Other than H47, none of the mtDNA lineages among ancient Roman samples match Ashkenazic mtDNA lineages, so far.

    It would also be inaccurate to describe Jews, or Levantines generally, as genetically half-“Arab”, even though some Western Jewish genetic lines here and there (like mtDNA R0a2m) were ultimately Arabian. I don’t consider Lebanese people to be true Arabs, and genetically they aren’t very Arabian.

    Greek Romaniote Jews are approximately 40.6% Levantine, Sephardic Jews are approximately 38.2% Levantine, and Ashkenazic Jews are approximately 35% Levantine, on average, when we use the ancient samples Levant_LBN_Roman as a basis of comparison. The Ashkenazic gene pool got diluted in the past millennia from occasional intermarriage with Germans and Poles.

    The article in The Guardian is problematic due to its leftist ideological biases and for taking Professor Shlomo Sand seriously. According to his April 14, 2019 interview with Mediapart.fr, Sand is currently writing a French novel that argues against the notion of genetic Jewishness. He is still in denial of the significant indigenous roots of Western Jews in Israel.

    I’m also disappointed by David B. Goldstein’s denial of the use of DNA testing to confirm ethnic Jewish heritage and transform understanding of identity.

    The article’s examples given of confirming Western Jewish ancestors for ambiguous Israeli immigrants from Russia are mtDNA tests (based on the 4 most common Ashkenazic mtDNA lines) and genetic disease tests. Neither of those is ideal; my method of confirming autosomal DNA segments of Mediterranean character shared with Jews through triangulation and phasing is the most reliable method. Let’s say a particular DNA segment has the following matches to it: a Sicilian, a Spaniard, 2 Peruvians, 1 Jew from Turkey, and 15 Ashkenazic Jews. I’ve seen many matchups like that over the years. What can we say about the ancestor of that segment? That’s right, it was a Sephardic ancestor with 99% certainty and only about a 1% chance of being an ethnic Spanish ancestor. Genetic evidence doesn’t usually automatically confer citizenship in Israel or Spain nor membership in a synagogue but it’s knowledge many people are seeking.

    I also dislike this article’s attacks on Greeks and Northwestern Europeans who express interest in their distant ancestors and promote their indigenous status within Europe. At least, in this case, the writer didn’t have a double standard for Jews versus Christians in that regard. But he got it wrong in both cases.

    • Replies: @BB753
    What about Sephardim? Are they half-Iberian, half-Hebrew? Phenotypically, many of them overlap with Ashkenazis.
    , @Flip
    A substantial portion of Ashkenazi Jews have blue eyes and pale skin. How does that square with ancestry from the Middle East and Greece or Italy?
    , @Colin Wright
    'The article in The Guardian is problematic due to its leftist ideological biases and for taking Professor Shlomo Sand seriously. According to his April 14, 2019 interview with Mediapart.fr, Sand is currently writing a French novel that argues against the notion of genetic Jewishness. He is still in denial of the significant indigenous roots of Western Jews in Israel.'

    I notice that you don't rebut Sand's actual arguments.

    1. The probable Jewish population of Roman Palestine simply couldn't have expanded enough quickly enough to account for the Jewish population of the Roman Empire. 100,000 cannot equal 2,000,000 -- not in six generations or so. More generous figures assume that all the inhabitants of Palestine were Jews, and they all fled Palestine to settle elsewhere -- and both parts of that are demonstrable nonsense.

    2. In the Jewish cemeteries of the Roman Empire, half the names of each successive generation indicate that the deceased was a convert. Do the math on what percentage of a population will remain genetically 'Jewish' if half of each generation are converts.
    , @Reg Cæsar

    I don’t consider Lebanese people to be true Arabs, and genetically they aren’t very Arabian.
     
    Too civilized.

    not so much genetically Italian as was thought ten years ago, but moreso Greek

     

    Either way, they're oily.
    , @Anon

    It would also be inaccurate to describe Jews, or Levantines generally, as genetically half-“Arab”, even though some Western Jewish genetic lines here and there (like mtDNA R0a2m) were ultimately Arabian. I don’t consider Lebanese people to be true Arabs, and genetically they aren’t very Arabian.
     
    How closely related are "Levantines" to Arabs?

    How closely related to Arabs is the non-Romaniote Greek half of Jews?
  25. @Anon7
    If a 100% Ashkenazi Jewish woman marries a gentile, the children are all Jewish. Even though they are only 50% Ashkenazi. And that would be true if one of the daughters married a gentile, the children would be only 25% Ashkenazi, but still Jewish. And so on.

    That's why you can't tell who's Jewish by looking. I went out with a woman who identified as Jewish, and she looked quite Jewish, and by Jewish law was indeed Jewish. Except that she was adopted into a Jewish family, so who knows what her genetic heritage was. Her sisters, on the other hand, looked like blonde shiksas, because their Jewish father had married a gentile, and then had her convert to Judaism.

    Cases like your example exist, but the Jewish phenotype exists too. It’s a phenotype, not the prototype of Jewishness. In the latter case, your example could be used to disapprove of the term, I’d concede this, in the former case, it is nothing but an exception to the rule. – Now think of Barbra Streisand & Groucho Marx. See – there are not only exceptions, there is a rule, too!

  26. “Oh really? And what exactly does a Jew look like?” – Oscar’s Granny’s quote, followed by a picture of Oscar. Steve cracks me up with his dry wit.

    • Agree: Twodees Partain
    • Replies: @El Dato

    The raw memory of this racism
     
    It's a genetic memory. Like fear of spiders.

    And what exactly does a Jew look like
     
    Maybe like a .... rabbit?

    https://youtu.be/h8NrKjJPAuw?t=33
    , @slumber_j

    Oscar’s Granny’s quote, followed by a picture of Oscar.
     
    Not only that, but with a photo of Bob Dylan featured prominently in the background.
  27. @Lot
    “basically half Arab”

    Thankfully not.

    Probably more precise to say “half Palestinian” or “half Levantine” or even “half Canaanite”.

    • Replies: @Anonymous

    Probably more precise to say “half Palestinian” or “half Levantine” or even “half Canaanite”.
     
    Why is that more precise? Aren't those people Arabs or significantly related to them? What is wrong with half Arab?
    , @Lot
    I think “Old Levantine” fits best
  28. @Redneck farmer
    Cue "Dueling Banjos".

    Or dueling violins.

    • Agree: Redneck farmer
  29. @Anonymous

    His book was strongly denounced by almost all prominent researchers in the field as a shoddy incarnation of race science
     
    Was Wade's book shoddy?

    As we waited in line, we joked that this was our punishment for our ancestors marrying their cousins.
     
    It is interesting that Jews are never disparaged by others for being inbred, even though they are probably more closely related genetically to each other than rural Americans are to each other.

    It is interesting that Jews are never disparaged by others for being inbred, even though they are probably more closely related genetically to each other than rural Americans are to each other.

    You’ve never seen Schlomo the Slack Jawed Yockel?

  30. “Tay-Sachs” me … foot 😛
    They have been using the “Kohanitic Marker” as a proxy for racial purity (heh) ever since it was discovered. Never mind it is not related to any Old Testament peoples.
    – The State of Israel uses the Nuremberg definition (confession, two generations) for purposes of the Law of Return,
    while the Rabbinate uses matrilineality so they love mtDNA but do not recognize the Lemba Y-chromosome.

    What does it mean indeed?

    – Ambitious Ashkenazim join the Paras (a.k.a. “the Blonds”) and Mizrahim the Golani (their version of Sturmtruppen). Falasha have been VERY grudgingly recognized, but not their rabbis;
    and so on …
    Were not so much in the balance it would be amusing to watch 😀

    À propos Nuremberg:
    The stated purpose of the “Gesetz zum Schutze des deutschen Volkes und der deutschen Ehre”
    was to eliminate COMMUNIST influence from the public sphere (public service, media, and academia); it impacted quite a few of the very wrong ones – say, Fritz Haber – but overall was a smashing success (Joe McCarthy should have listened 😛 ).
    The oft-ridiculed marriage sophistries were later additions from the Streicher corner 🙂

  31. The kicker is that the Ashkenazim are Japhethites, not Semites – read Genesis. If the DNA selection is for Ashkenazim DNA, then they are excluding the actual Judahites along with the Edomites.

    • Replies: @Not Raul
    So Bibi is a Japhethite like Berlusconi is? That would explain a lot.
  32. “the idea that genetics can determine who we are socially… genetic differences in human populations manifest in predictable social differences…”

    Can anyone offer up an example or two of what they think the author is talking about here?

    • Replies: @anon
    The full quote:
    In recent years, a number of high-profile commentators have appropriated these scientific insights to push the idea that genetics can determine who we are socially, none more controversially than the former New York Times science writer Nicholas Wade. In his 2014 book, A Troublesome Inheritance: Genes, Race and Human History, Wade argues that genetic differences in human populations manifest in predictable social differences between those groups. However, almost all experts agree that the only difference between stagnant, poor, corrupt, brutal, superstitious societies and societies which are free, peaceful, dynamic, prosperous and humane is that the latter just happened to have the good fortune to be situated on Magic Dirt.
  33. OT: The State of The Bullshit

    Even Infosec/Hackers’ conferences are now politicized because of a mentally difficult vocal minority who need to insert their progressive dick/clit into everything:

    Black Hat USA axes anti-abortion congressman as keynote speaker after outcry – and more news from infosec land

    This year’s Black Hat USA has axed keynote speaker US House rep Will Hurd (R-TX) after outcry over his politics and voting record.

    Attendees and presenters threatened to boycott the annual security conference due to the congressman’s support for anti-abortion laws, efforts to defund Planned Parenthood, and unwillingness to back women in STEM, TechCrunch first reported.

    Given the much-needed push for more diversity and inclusion in the worlds of technology and information security [citation needed], Hurd’s invitation to speak at the event irked parts of the cyber-community [weasel words]. He is, for what it’s worth, said to be one of the more tech-aware congresscritters in America.

    After 24 hours or less of pressure, Black Hat’s organizers said in a statement to The Register on Friday that Hurd will not be lecturing security nerds in Vegas this year as planned:

    Black Hat has chosen to remove U.S. Representative, Will Hurd, as our 2019 Black Hat USA Keynote. We misjudged the separation of technology and politics. We will continue to focus on technology and research, however we recognize that Black Hat USA is not the appropriate platform for the polarizing political debate resulting from our choice of speaker. We are still fully dedicated to providing an inclusive environment and apologize that this decision did not reflect that sentiment.

    For example:

    This isn’t really that complicated. We’re trying to get more women in our field and this man is literally perceived as an oppressor of women by many. Just don’t give a keynote to anyone who is perceived to be an anti-inclusion opressor. That’s a reasonable standard to me.

    Expecting Neo to don Handmaid’s Tale gear as he is dragged off to Gitmo by Agent Smiths after a successful entrapment operation.

  34. @Anonymous

    By this they mean a group which, though self-consciously distinct, is made up of several widely diverse racial strains.
     
    Don't Jews themselves describe Jews as such: they say that they are basically half Arab and half Italian (although there was no such thing as "Italy" back then).

    There’s always been an Italy, as a geographical region. Though Italy as a mostly united nation or state has existed only intermittently,

    • Replies: @Anonymous

    There’s always been an Italy, as a geographical region. Though Italy as a mostly united nation or state has existed only intermittently
     
    There haven't always been "Italians." Even now, that is a dubious ethnic category in view of the diversity throughout the country.
  35. OT: Black Pigeon got banned for 12h, declares the Age of Politicial YouTube over:

    • Replies: @Cagey Beast
    Black Pigeon loves to declare things over. "Canada is gone". "Europe is lost", etc. In this case though, he's more right than wrong.
  36. …Jewish life was forcefully suppressed during the Soviet era…

    Is this actually true? Was “Jewish life” any more suppressed than Catholic or Orthodox Life?

    • Replies: @Anonymous

    Is this actually true? Was “Jewish life” any more suppressed than Catholic or Orthodox Life?
     
    A lot of churches were destroyed. It isn't clear that the same happened to Jewish places of worship and gathering.
    , @Flip
    There were many Jews among the founders of the Soviet Union but their influence seemed to fade over time. Was that due to Stalin or just Slavs reasserting themselves? I remember reading a quote by Khrushchev during a visit to Poland in 1956 that there were "too many Abramoviches" among the leadership.
    , @Dmitry
    It depends if you talk about religious or national suppression.

    I'm not an expert and was born in the early 1990s, but my impression from what I have read - religiously, Judaism was possibly more strongly suppressed than other religions (e.g. prison for possession of religious texts, prison for circumcision, etc).

    In terms of nationality, Jews were more culturally "hazed" or "bullied" than other nationalities - but this depends also by region. And this "haze" has a function of integrating the Jews, so you could see it as not completely negative (even if you said this to Jews who escaped to America because of it, they will probably go crazy against you).

    For example, in Ukraine, it was always famous for antisemitism, but in multinational Siberia, the reputation is the opposite.

    Ashkenazi Jews lost most their distinctive culture, and they intermarried often with other nationalities. But other races of Jews - Mountain Jews, Georgian Jews, etc- maintained their culture.

    -

    Contrast seems more obvious now, that government in Russia today is pro-religious, and has a special level of philosemitism.

    Jews in Russia today generate antisemitism by becoming too dominant among the rich class (even though the majority of Jews are not rich, if you look at the most expensive golf club in Moscow half of their photos are of Jewish weddings).

    , @notanon

    Is this actually true? Was “Jewish life” any more suppressed than Catholic or Orthodox Life?
     
    no

    it's the usual nonsense to cover up what the Bolsheviks did.
  37. @Mr McKenna

    “looks Jewish” is a common phrase, whereas “looks Christian” isn’t one.
     
    The hell you say!

    https://i.ibb.co/2jpWvft/White-American-Family-1950s.png

    Yeah, but that’s kinder, kirche, kuche Kristianity. You don’t play nicely with nuclear weapons (theoretically*), so out you go!

    * – the first (and only – see, it worked!) nukes were dropped on the heart of Japanese Christianity to get a head start

  38. This article is either at war with itself or it’s putting down the marker that only Jews are allowed to talk about genetics and related euphemisms. Jewish genetics will serve as the motte when challenged.

  39. “David Reich argued that although genetics does not substantiate any racist stereotypes, differences in genetic ancestry do correlate to many of today’s racial constructs”

    I’m not saying that genetics substantiate racist stereotypes, but a predilection for fried chicken and watermelon does correlate to genetic ancestry.

  40. @YetAnotherAnon
    “Oh really? And what exactly does a Jew look like?” - Oscar's Granny's quote, followed by a picture of Oscar. Steve cracks me up with his dry wit.

    The raw memory of this racism

    It’s a genetic memory. Like fear of spiders.

    And what exactly does a Jew look like

    Maybe like a …. rabbit?

  41. we are supposed to conceive of Russians as the opposite of Jews

    Kinfolk fight more than strangers.

    Especially step-kin.

  42. @Anon
    More and more discussions of "race science" and denunciations of it are doing so by getting down into the scientific weeds. Previously it was considered to be platforming of evil to even describe the science at that level.

    You were supposed to do a lateral and start talking about Francis Galton (who was for some reason I never understood a bad guy) and Hitler, and then segue into a six degrees of Kevin Bacon maneuver to associate everything with the Pioneer Fund.

    William Saletan was an early example, who learned his lesson, but more recently Eric Levitz of New York Magazine is a writer who seems weirdly familiar with stuff that you'd almost have to be a regular reader of iSteve to know.

    Almost is superfluous.

    Steve is read, by proxy if absolutely necessary.

  43. I was in grad school with a gentleman who came from Kazakhstan by way of Israel. As I understand it, he was one-quarter Romanian Jewish, one-quarter Ukrainian, and one-half Russian. I think his one Jewish grandfather fled from Romania into the Soviet Union on the eve of WWII. He was born in Kazakhstan and spend his childhood there, but then his family moved to Israel.

    I don’t think he was halakhically Jewish, and religiously he was Russian Orthodox (and very anti-Communist). I think he had to serve in the Israeli Army, too. He told us that he really liked L.A., where he probably found more people with a similar background. Lives in Canada now, last I heard.

  44. @YetAnotherAnon
    “Oh really? And what exactly does a Jew look like?” - Oscar's Granny's quote, followed by a picture of Oscar. Steve cracks me up with his dry wit.

    Oscar’s Granny’s quote, followed by a picture of Oscar.

    Not only that, but with a photo of Bob Dylan featured prominently in the background.

    • Replies: @TWS
    Good catch. I didn't notice that but it makes the irony quite piquant.
  45. @Kevin Brook
    Western Jews including the Jews of Italy, Poland, Greece, and Spain are not so much genetically Italian as was thought ten years ago, but moreso Greek, similar to modern inhabitants of Crete and Sicily. In the olden days, southern Italy (called "Magna Graecia") was already heavily of Greek origin, and Western Jews have significant genetic sharing with Greeks and Southern Italians but not much with Northern Italians and only moderate overlap with Central Italians.

    mtDNA H47 was found in ancient Rome but also in Armenia and the Levant. Other than H47, none of the mtDNA lineages among ancient Roman samples match Ashkenazic mtDNA lineages, so far.

    It would also be inaccurate to describe Jews, or Levantines generally, as genetically half-"Arab", even though some Western Jewish genetic lines here and there (like mtDNA R0a2m) were ultimately Arabian. I don't consider Lebanese people to be true Arabs, and genetically they aren't very Arabian.

    Greek Romaniote Jews are approximately 40.6% Levantine, Sephardic Jews are approximately 38.2% Levantine, and Ashkenazic Jews are approximately 35% Levantine, on average, when we use the ancient samples Levant_LBN_Roman as a basis of comparison. The Ashkenazic gene pool got diluted in the past millennia from occasional intermarriage with Germans and Poles.

    The article in The Guardian is problematic due to its leftist ideological biases and for taking Professor Shlomo Sand seriously. According to his April 14, 2019 interview with Mediapart.fr, Sand is currently writing a French novel that argues against the notion of genetic Jewishness. He is still in denial of the significant indigenous roots of Western Jews in Israel.

    I'm also disappointed by David B. Goldstein's denial of the use of DNA testing to confirm ethnic Jewish heritage and transform understanding of identity.

    The article's examples given of confirming Western Jewish ancestors for ambiguous Israeli immigrants from Russia are mtDNA tests (based on the 4 most common Ashkenazic mtDNA lines) and genetic disease tests. Neither of those is ideal; my method of confirming autosomal DNA segments of Mediterranean character shared with Jews through triangulation and phasing is the most reliable method. Let's say a particular DNA segment has the following matches to it: a Sicilian, a Spaniard, 2 Peruvians, 1 Jew from Turkey, and 15 Ashkenazic Jews. I've seen many matchups like that over the years. What can we say about the ancestor of that segment? That's right, it was a Sephardic ancestor with 99% certainty and only about a 1% chance of being an ethnic Spanish ancestor. Genetic evidence doesn't usually automatically confer citizenship in Israel or Spain nor membership in a synagogue but it's knowledge many people are seeking.

    I also dislike this article's attacks on Greeks and Northwestern Europeans who express interest in their distant ancestors and promote their indigenous status within Europe. At least, in this case, the writer didn't have a double standard for Jews versus Christians in that regard. But he got it wrong in both cases.

    What about Sephardim? Are they half-Iberian, half-Hebrew? Phenotypically, many of them overlap with Ashkenazis.

    • Replies: @Kevin Brook
    Sephardic Jews from the northern parts of the former Ottoman Empire have a small amount of Spanish DNA but they are mostly a mix of Greek + Anatolian + Israelite + North African, so similar to Ashkenazic Jews.

    Sephardim and Ashkenazim share 87.2% of the same ancestors from about 1,500-2,000 years ago using nMonte models with a genetic distance of 0.8842. The components that are unique to Ashkenazim that Sephardim don't have include German, Slavic, and Han Chinese. Some German Jews have close to 0% Slavic and 0% Chinese DNA so they come out even closer to Sephardim than the average Ashkenazi from further east.

    Sephardic Jews from Bulgaria are noticeably mixed with Ashkenazic settlers who had moved south several centuries ago. Sephardic Jews from Turkey and Greece partially descend from pre-existing Jewish communities that existed in the area before Sephardim arrived. Moroccan Jews have varying degrees of Berber DNA - more Sephardic in the north and increasing Berber going south. Syrian Jews from Aleppo with their substantial Musta'arabi ancestry are far from pure Sephardim even though some of them call themselves Sephardim and can trace some lineages to Spain.
  46. After arriving in Eastern Europe around a millennia ago

    @ Guardian editor. Asleep at the switch?

    • Replies: @El Dato
    This is why it is called "The Gruaniad".
    , @AndrewR
    Or just incompetent. It's the Guardian ferchrissake
  47. @Buzz Mohawk
    Once again from Into the Darkness:

    Another misconception is that the Nazis regard the Jews as a distinct race. To be sure, that term is often used in popular writings and many ignorant Nazis may believe it, but their scientific men do not thus defy obvious anthropology. They therefore refer to the Jews as a Mischrasse. By this they mean a group which, though self-consciously distinct, is made up of several widely diverse racial strains.
     
    Or as others have said, neither a race nor a religion, nor even an ethnicity, but a tribe.

    It is because most of those strains are deemed too alien to the Germanic blend that the Nazis passed the so-called Nuremberg Laws prohibiting intermarriage between Jews and Germans.

    Without attempting to appraise this highly controversial racial doctrine, it is fair to say that Nazi Germany’s eugenic program is the most ambitious and far-reaching experiment in eugenics ever attempted by any nation.
     

    Perhaps until now.

    a group which, though self-consciously distinct, is made up of several widely diverse racial strains

    Anyway, with a much stronger Semitic strain in the genepool than anywhere else in core Europe. Hence the well-known, exaggeratedly Semitic caricatures.

  48. @Redneck farmer
    Look at the amount of money your state spends on Medicaid and Special Education for "developmentally disabled" individuals. You'll find yourself demanding aktion!

    That’s Not Punny!

    • Replies: @MEH 0910
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1J256lLL4fU
  49. @Dave Pinsen
    Edge cases. There are Jewish phenotypes. Not every Jew fits them, and of course converts don’t, but enough do that “looks Jewish” is a common phrase, whereas “looks Christian” isn’t one.

    “looks Jewish” is a common phrase, whereas “looks Christian” isn’t one.

    When Dani Shapiro told her father’s other daughter that DNA showed that they weren’t half-sisters at all (she was conceived by an until-then anonymous sperm “donor”), the other woman said she always suspected something. “You looked so… Christian.”

    She certainly does.

    https://danishapiro.com/

    • Replies: @El Dato
    Looking Christian means that you have to be ready to be covergirl of "Les Misérables"?
    , @Flip
    I don't think I'd let my wife be impregnated with donor sperm if I were sterile. I'd rather just have dogs.
    , @TWS
    So Mom was screwing around?
  50. What does a Jew look like?
    How about a Jewfish:

    https://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-jewfish.htm#

    Oh, Lookie, no picture,

    You really couldn’t make this shit up, could you?

    Here,

  51. I find it puzzling yet slightly amusing that there’s all this kerfuffle about how much Jewish ancestry is enough, yet the One Drop Rule is an absolute, unchallenged part of our society.

    • Replies: @jon

    the One Drop Rule is an absolute, unchallenged part of our society
     
    The One Drop Rule was an absolute, unchallenged part of our society. Look at how much sh*t Fauxcohontas and Talcum X take, rightly so in my opinion, for trying to claim non-Whiteness when they are only a few drops of the Other.
  52. Anonymous[377] • Disclaimer says:
    @vinteuil

    ...Jewish life was forcefully suppressed during the Soviet era...

     

    Is this actually true? Was "Jewish life" any more suppressed than Catholic or Orthodox Life?

    Is this actually true? Was “Jewish life” any more suppressed than Catholic or Orthodox Life?

    A lot of churches were destroyed. It isn’t clear that the same happened to Jewish places of worship and gathering.

  53. @Anonymous

    His book was strongly denounced by almost all prominent researchers in the field as a shoddy incarnation of race science
     
    Was Wade's book shoddy?

    As we waited in line, we joked that this was our punishment for our ancestors marrying their cousins.
     
    It is interesting that Jews are never disparaged by others for being inbred, even though they are probably more closely related genetically to each other than rural Americans are to each other.

    so true. Ashkenazi Jews are all closer genetically to each other than most Americans are to their fourth cousins. On average a white American will shares about .20% of their DNA with a fourth cousin, while Ashkenazi Jews will share 1.5% of their DNA with a fourth Cousin

    My best friend is half Ashkenazi, his mother was jewish.. When he did 23andme it listed his 1,500 closest relatives….99% were Jewish despite having more known Paternal relatives, his paternal family had settled in America prior to the 1800s. Yet while he shared .8% of his DNA with a paternal third cousin , he shared .8% of his DNA with hundreds of Ashkenazi Jews who were distant cousins, on his maternal side. His actual third cousins on his Ashkenazi side shared 7% of their DNA with him , more typical of a first cousin. Any Jew who tested at 23anmde will realize how inbred they are, as second and third cousins will appear as first cousins and first cousins will be predicted Aunts and Uncles….

    Usually Americans with deep roots in America will find lots of potential fourth cousins at 23andme. Although 25% of your fourth cousins will share zero DNA with you. It is interesting to see how many of my matches , who are fourth cousins , do not share any DNA with my sister. And vice verse, about 25% of her matches share zero DNA with me. Thus a typical American will not even share any DNA with a confirmed fifth cousin, while Ashkenazi Jews will share a minimum of .2% with all Ashkenazi Jews.

    • Replies: @Prodigal son
    Observed the same pattern on 23andme with my wife. She is just 5% Ashkenazi , yet almost half of her DNA matches are Jews. Her Father was Italian and her mother from Argentina so she does not have many cousins who have tested.
    , @Anonymous
    "Ashkenazi Jews are all closer genetically to each other than most Americans are to their fourth cousins. On average a white American will shares about .20% of their DNA with a fourth cousin, while Ashkenazi Jews will share 1.5% of their DNA with a fourth Cousin"

    The second sentence does not prove the first sentence.
    , @Anonymous Jew
    Sorry to nitpick, but two random A Jews are, on average, the equivalent of 5th cousins.

    First cousins typically share 12.5% of their DNA (50% mother/father; 25% uncle/aunt; 12.5% first cousin; and so on)
  54. I am a great iSteve fan considering him to be perhaps the most prolific interesting commentator in the Internet cloud. The need to keep producing interesting thoughts day after day is a heavy task. No surprise that Steve reprises his historical preoccupations. I have never played a game of golf – aside miniature golf – although my retired brother-in-law plays frequently. Yet Steve’s observations about the design and social history of American golf courses are entertaining. I am writing to share my feelings about another of his golden oldie subjects: the Jews. Although I am one, the real-world role of jews historically and in the present has a smaller share of my thoughts than those of Steve. Steve’s treatment of the subject seems to me to be objective and scientific, unlike the run of articles on his host website. For which I am grateful, even in such cases as when he says nothing new about them (hard to do considering the enormous attention they have attracted). I am also grateful for the relative absence of jew haters in the comments here when compared to the number of those on his host website. I have always wondered where that comes from. A psychological explanation of that phenomenon among his countrymen is proposed by Sartre in the first half of his Réflexions sur la question juive. To my mind, it rings true to a certain extent but is not comprehensive.

    • Replies: @Anon
    I am also grateful for the relative absence of jew haters in the comments here when compared to the number of those on his host website. I have always wondered where that comes from.

    It comes from efforts by Jews to censor.
    , @AndrewR
    That "relative absence" presumably comes from Sailer's "whim"
    , @Anonymous
    'I have always wondered where that comes from'

    Jewish behaviour.

    Satre disliked Jews and was willing to suck up to them to protect his reputation and livelyhood after borderline collaboration during WW2. That books is b*llsh*t and you need to stop kidding yourself.
    , @vinteuil
    Thank God for Sailer's moderating at whim.
  55. • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    Is Chinese script eugenic, too? If you have to master it to breed, it must be.

    Is this essay well-known among old China hands?

    Why Chinese Is So Damn Hard
    by David Moser
    , @bored identity



    "I think this contradiction is not hard to understand.
    If you are the ethnic majority in a nation, it is natural to wish to maintain the dominance of your ethny; if you belong to a minority ethny, especially one with as sorrowful a history as the Jews, it is just as natural to be hostile to the dominance of any other."

     

    Greetings Mr. Derb,

    bored identity has two questions, as you also seem bored today;

    1. Where does the Ice Chigger Ethny fit in this theory?


    https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/06/22/18/29DDDD0700000578-0-image-a-1_1434995018408.jpg


    2. Why is so hard these days to find a decent eatery that pleases everyone's Fathers Day palate?

    http://www.scaryforkids.com/pics/eating-dogs.jpg
  56. OT:

    • Replies: @The Wild Geese Howard
    Michele Sutter spelled, "half as good," funny.
    , @El Dato
    "Twice as good to get into that cockpit"

    I will not make any jokes about white Twiiter females being calmed by twice as good #BlackedCockpit.

    Maxine looks like she has had a near death experience though.

    , @Hail

    Michele Sutter
    @MicheSutter
    Jun 14, 2019

    Seeing black pilots on my flights always calms me because I know they had to be twice as good to get into that cockpit.
     
    Bizarre reasoning there.

    Thinking about it, I think it's likely fair to label that a (subtle) anti-White race-libel.

    This is apparently the Tweeter's bio:

    Michele Sutter, MOVI (Money Out Voters In) co-founder, is a writer, teacher, producer, and activist. She is a former Story Editor at HBO and a former co-chair of The 29th Street Project, a New York City based theater artists' cooperative. She also produced the 2009 Los Angeles Drama Critics Circle Award winning musical adaptation of Aristophanes' The Wasps. A former ESL teacher for the Los Angeles Unified School District, she is a graduate of Princeton University and a recipient of a Nicholl Fellowship in screenwriting from The Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences.
     
    Are we looking at an Every Single Time'r? Her bizarre comments about Black pilots would make more sense, anyway.
    , @Hail

    Maxine Waters
    @RepMaxineWaters
    Jun 14, 2019

    [...] My focus is diversity & inclusion [...]
     

    ...she says, while posing with three crew members of some plane she was on. Crew members: 3 Blacks, 0 Whites, 0 Other. 3/3 Black. Not diverse.

    Which reminds me: Will Rep. Waters take the IQ test that Trump offered her last year?

    , @Anonymous
    Maybe in 1962. Today, not so much, but black aircrew on most US airlines are at least minimally competent: I don't worry bout them that much.

    I asked a recently retired United captain about it once. He said that the blacks they had he had no problem flying with but some he wouldn't associate with off duty.
    , @bored identity



    "..to be twice as good to get into that cockpit."

     

    bored identity unearthed a couple of ancient Wakandian artifacts that could perfectly explain aforementioned double plus good competence level :


    http://www.thespecialistsltd.com/files/Stunt_Kit-Crowbar.jpg
  57. Ariel Sharon wanted to import a lot of voters who …

    Sounds like he was a good democrat.

  58. @Reg Cæsar

    “looks Jewish” is a common phrase, whereas “looks Christian” isn’t one.
     
    When Dani Shapiro told her father's other daughter that DNA showed that they weren't half-sisters at all (she was conceived by an until-then anonymous sperm "donor"), the other woman said she always suspected something. "You looked so... Christian."

    She certainly does.

    https://danishapiro.com/


    https://www.publishersweekly.com/images/cached/ARTICLE_PHOTO/photo/000/000/059/59369-v1-600x.JPG

    Looking Christian means that you have to be ready to be covergirl of “Les Misérables”?

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    Looking Christian means that you have to be ready to be covergirl of “Les Misérables”?
     
    She looks damned good for someone born in 1962.
  59. @Reg Cæsar

    You might think that the New York Times Science section is “mainstream,” but what Schwartz means by “mainstream” is “Jewish:”
     
    In Ayn Rand's words, a "stagnant swamp".

    “Because Ashkenazi communities have a history of marrying in..."
     
    You could solve this problem by settling for perfectly good Sephardic mates. But nobody wants to settle.

    Haim Saban's girlfriend's Polish-born mother called him "that black animal", and threatened to jump to her death if he entered their house.

    When I was 16 and attending a Jewish day-school in Melbourne, Australia
     
    The joke down under is that Sydney is a warm city with cold Jews, while Melbourne is a cold city with warm Jews.

    Canada must have her own stereotypes regarding Toronto and Montreal.

    “You could solve this problem by settling for perfectly good Sephardic mates. But nobody wants to settle.”

    Not true anymore(if it was ever widely true.) tons of people in Israel are mixed. there are barely middle eastern jews in the US, but they also often intermarry. Middle eastern jews are also often visually indistinguishable from Ashkenazi jews.

  60. Jews in Russia already include several different races – Ashkenazi, Mountain Jews (from Caucuses regions), Bukhari (from Central Asia), Georgian Jews.

    But in Israel, Jews are about fifty different races (and Jews are only 74% of the citizenship), so the discussion becomes quite idiot.

    A secular Jewish school in Israel, will look the as multiracial as an American highschool – for my eyes. Moreover, as a small country, the different races all living very close together.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Genocidal settler state.
    , @AndrewR
    What an absurd claim. A few look kinda Arab but they're all Caucasians if not white. Not a single black person.
  61. @Hail

    After arriving in Eastern Europe around a millennia ago
     
    @ Guardian editor. Asleep at the switch?

    This is why it is called “The Gruaniad”.

  62. @Kevin Brook
    Western Jews including the Jews of Italy, Poland, Greece, and Spain are not so much genetically Italian as was thought ten years ago, but moreso Greek, similar to modern inhabitants of Crete and Sicily. In the olden days, southern Italy (called "Magna Graecia") was already heavily of Greek origin, and Western Jews have significant genetic sharing with Greeks and Southern Italians but not much with Northern Italians and only moderate overlap with Central Italians.

    mtDNA H47 was found in ancient Rome but also in Armenia and the Levant. Other than H47, none of the mtDNA lineages among ancient Roman samples match Ashkenazic mtDNA lineages, so far.

    It would also be inaccurate to describe Jews, or Levantines generally, as genetically half-"Arab", even though some Western Jewish genetic lines here and there (like mtDNA R0a2m) were ultimately Arabian. I don't consider Lebanese people to be true Arabs, and genetically they aren't very Arabian.

    Greek Romaniote Jews are approximately 40.6% Levantine, Sephardic Jews are approximately 38.2% Levantine, and Ashkenazic Jews are approximately 35% Levantine, on average, when we use the ancient samples Levant_LBN_Roman as a basis of comparison. The Ashkenazic gene pool got diluted in the past millennia from occasional intermarriage with Germans and Poles.

    The article in The Guardian is problematic due to its leftist ideological biases and for taking Professor Shlomo Sand seriously. According to his April 14, 2019 interview with Mediapart.fr, Sand is currently writing a French novel that argues against the notion of genetic Jewishness. He is still in denial of the significant indigenous roots of Western Jews in Israel.

    I'm also disappointed by David B. Goldstein's denial of the use of DNA testing to confirm ethnic Jewish heritage and transform understanding of identity.

    The article's examples given of confirming Western Jewish ancestors for ambiguous Israeli immigrants from Russia are mtDNA tests (based on the 4 most common Ashkenazic mtDNA lines) and genetic disease tests. Neither of those is ideal; my method of confirming autosomal DNA segments of Mediterranean character shared with Jews through triangulation and phasing is the most reliable method. Let's say a particular DNA segment has the following matches to it: a Sicilian, a Spaniard, 2 Peruvians, 1 Jew from Turkey, and 15 Ashkenazic Jews. I've seen many matchups like that over the years. What can we say about the ancestor of that segment? That's right, it was a Sephardic ancestor with 99% certainty and only about a 1% chance of being an ethnic Spanish ancestor. Genetic evidence doesn't usually automatically confer citizenship in Israel or Spain nor membership in a synagogue but it's knowledge many people are seeking.

    I also dislike this article's attacks on Greeks and Northwestern Europeans who express interest in their distant ancestors and promote their indigenous status within Europe. At least, in this case, the writer didn't have a double standard for Jews versus Christians in that regard. But he got it wrong in both cases.

    A substantial portion of Ashkenazi Jews have blue eyes and pale skin. How does that square with ancestry from the Middle East and Greece or Italy?

    • Replies: @Kevin Brook
    I did mention "occasional intermarriage with Germans and Poles." About 3% German and 5-12% Polish, to varying degrees depending on the individual. That would explain some, but not all, of the blue eyes and light skin and probably most of the instances of blond hair. At least one of the red hair genes in the Ashkenazic population has a northern European source, though perhaps that's not the only red hair gene Ashkenazim have (even 100% Levantine Samaritans sometimes have red hair and light skin).

    Deep ancestry tests with LivingDNA, nMonte, and Eurogenes calculators really all do confirm that the vast majority of Ashkenazic DNA is Mediterranean.
    , @Bardon Kaldian
    While ol' Shlomo was in the arms of Orpheus, his "faithful" Sarah was wilding in orgies in a local Russian pub .....
  63. Boris Banished From Rugrats Strip

    One regular Rugrats character is not working too well in the strip — Grandpa Boris.

    In the Sunday 9/20/98 strip, syndicated to papers nationwide, Boris and his congregation recite The Mourner’s Kaddish during the Rosh Hashanah holiday, when this strip was published.

    What the strip originally meant to do is to represent the Jewish faith, which is severely underrepresented in today’s comics. Instead, it created controversy, which led to the removal of one of the series’ most loved adults.

    The Jewish Anti-Defamation League complained to Nick about the portrayal of Jews in the strip, with Boris being the main cause of defamation. According to the ADL, Boris was drawn in a manner similar to Nazi-era Jewish stereotypes. Furthermore, his recitation of the Mourner’s Kaddish in a light-hearted fashion provided further insult, since the Kaddish is supposed to be recited in a serious manner. Nick president Herb Scannell called this offense an “error of judgement”.

    To appease the ADL, Nick will no longer include Boris in future strips, nor would the strip make any references to religion.

    • Replies: @Not Raul
    So their complaint about Boris is that he looks too Jewish?

    Perhaps fear of the ADL is why Ingrid Bergman was cast as Golda Meir.
  64. @Anon
    More and more discussions of "race science" and denunciations of it are doing so by getting down into the scientific weeds. Previously it was considered to be platforming of evil to even describe the science at that level.

    You were supposed to do a lateral and start talking about Francis Galton (who was for some reason I never understood a bad guy) and Hitler, and then segue into a six degrees of Kevin Bacon maneuver to associate everything with the Pioneer Fund.

    William Saletan was an early example, who learned his lesson, but more recently Eric Levitz of New York Magazine is a writer who seems weirdly familiar with stuff that you'd almost have to be a regular reader of iSteve to know.

    William Saletan was an early example, who learned his lesson, but more recently Eric Levitz of New York Magazine is a writer who seems weirdly familiar with stuff that you’d almost have to be a regular reader of iSteve to know.

    Eric Levitz has been mentioned before as iSteve-knowledgeable. The article about Steve Saiiler in the New York Magazine wasn’t all bad either. Now there is a depiction of Steven Pinker’s allies, so to speak, with Steve Sailer graphically quite near to Steven Pinker:

    Seven Pinker’s right-wing, alt-right & hereditarian connections version 3 with 100% more Koch is here.

    https://www.pinkerite.com/2019/04/steven-pinkers-right-wing-alt-right-and.html

  65. OT

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/15/us/politics/trump-cyber-russia-grid.html

    No idea how true any of this is. If you did have any kind of surveillance software, printing something like this might be a way of getting Russia to tell you where the vital points are i.e. where do the Russians start checking? Sort of the way the UK would drop mines at known points on the German Navy map grid, then use the encrypted reports to help derive the day’s Enigma settings.

    Power grids have been a low-intensity battleground for years.

    Since at least 2012, current and former officials say, the United States has put reconnaissance probes into the control systems of the Russian electric grid.

    But now the American strategy has shifted more toward offense, officials say, with the placement of potentially crippling malware inside the Russian system at a depth and with an aggressiveness that had never been tried before. It is intended partly as a warning, and partly to be poised to conduct cyberstrikes if a major conflict broke out between Washington and Moscow.

    The commander of United States Cyber Command, Gen. Paul M. Nakasone, has been outspoken about the need to “defend forward” deep in an adversary’s networks to demonstrate that the United States will respond to the barrage of online attacks aimed at it.

    President Trump’s national security adviser, John R. Bolton, said the United States was taking a broader view of potential digital targets as part of an effort to warn anybody “engaged in cyberoperations against us.”

    Mr. Trump issued new authorities to Cyber Command last summer, in a still-classified document known as National Security Presidential Memoranda 13, giving General Nakasone far more leeway to conduct offensive online operations without receiving presidential approval.

    But the action inside the Russian electric grid appears to have been conducted under little-noticed new legal authorities, slipped into the military authorization bill passed by Congress last summer. The measure approved the routine conduct of “clandestine military activity” in cyberspace, to “deter, safeguard or defend against attacks or malicious cyberactivities against the United States.”

    Under the law, those actions can now be authorized by the defense secretary without special presidential approval.

    “It has gotten far, far more aggressive over the past year,” one senior intelligence official said, speaking on the condition of anonymity but declining to discuss any specific classified programs. “We are doing things at a scale that we never contemplated a few years ago.”

    The critical question — impossible to know without access to the classified details of the operation — is how deep into the Russian grid the United States has bored. Only then will it be clear whether it would be possible to plunge Russia into darkness or cripple its military — a question that may not be answerable until the code is activated.

  66. @vinteuil

    ...Jewish life was forcefully suppressed during the Soviet era...

     

    Is this actually true? Was "Jewish life" any more suppressed than Catholic or Orthodox Life?

    There were many Jews among the founders of the Soviet Union but their influence seemed to fade over time. Was that due to Stalin or just Slavs reasserting themselves? I remember reading a quote by Khrushchev during a visit to Poland in 1956 that there were “too many Abramoviches” among the leadership.

    • Replies: @notanon
    i think the loss of control was partly due to in-fighting among the Bolshevik elite with the losers getting shot.
  67. Anonymous[786] • Disclaimer says:
    @Dmitry
    Jews in Russia already include several different races - Ashkenazi, Mountain Jews (from Caucuses regions), Bukhari (from Central Asia), Georgian Jews.

    But in Israel, Jews are about fifty different races (and Jews are only 74% of the citizenship), so the discussion becomes quite idiot.

    A secular Jewish school in Israel, will look the as multiracial as an American highschool - for my eyes. Moreover, as a small country, the different races all living very close together.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7_O4kPux8E

    Genocidal settler state.

  68. @Anonymous

    His book was strongly denounced by almost all prominent researchers in the field as a shoddy incarnation of race science
     
    Was Wade's book shoddy?

    As we waited in line, we joked that this was our punishment for our ancestors marrying their cousins.
     
    It is interesting that Jews are never disparaged by others for being inbred, even though they are probably more closely related genetically to each other than rural Americans are to each other.

    When hillbillies marry their cousins, the dumb get dumber. When Jews marry their cousins, the smart get smarter.

    • LOL: Johann Ricke
    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    the smart get smarter.
     
    But not saner.
    , @Desiderius
    And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch? The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.

    And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother's eye.

    For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

    Hillbilly Luke, Chapter 6

    , @Jus' Sayin'...

    "When Jews marry their cousins, the smart get smarter."
     
    And more prone to a wide variety of horrible and/or loathsome physical and mental defects and diseases.

    IQ is not the sine qua non of Darwinian fitness. It has helped Ashkenaz Jews to thrive in accomodating host populations but the negative traits that inbreeding has associated with intelligence in Ashkenaz Jewish populations -the only Jewish populations demomstrating exceptionally high average IQs - may decrease Darwinian fitness in other settings.

    BTW, Jews traditionally have also encouraged uncle-niece marriages, something which most hillbillies I've known would look upon askance.

    , @MikeatMikedotMike
    When the cradle of civilization falls, my useless money will be on the hillbillies surviving far far longer than the jews.
  69. The Full Discussion Of The Jewish Question Is Of Paramount Importance At This Time

  70. @Reg Cæsar

    “looks Jewish” is a common phrase, whereas “looks Christian” isn’t one.
     
    When Dani Shapiro told her father's other daughter that DNA showed that they weren't half-sisters at all (she was conceived by an until-then anonymous sperm "donor"), the other woman said she always suspected something. "You looked so... Christian."

    She certainly does.

    https://danishapiro.com/


    https://www.publishersweekly.com/images/cached/ARTICLE_PHOTO/photo/000/000/059/59369-v1-600x.JPG

    I don’t think I’d let my wife be impregnated with donor sperm if I were sterile. I’d rather just have dogs.

  71. @vinteuil

    ...Jewish life was forcefully suppressed during the Soviet era...

     

    Is this actually true? Was "Jewish life" any more suppressed than Catholic or Orthodox Life?

    It depends if you talk about religious or national suppression.

    I’m not an expert and was born in the early 1990s, but my impression from what I have read – religiously, Judaism was possibly more strongly suppressed than other religions (e.g. prison for possession of religious texts, prison for circumcision, etc).

    In terms of nationality, Jews were more culturally “hazed” or “bullied” than other nationalities – but this depends also by region. And this “haze” has a function of integrating the Jews, so you could see it as not completely negative (even if you said this to Jews who escaped to America because of it, they will probably go crazy against you).

    For example, in Ukraine, it was always famous for antisemitism, but in multinational Siberia, the reputation is the opposite.

    Ashkenazi Jews lost most their distinctive culture, and they intermarried often with other nationalities. But other races of Jews – Mountain Jews, Georgian Jews, etc- maintained their culture.

    Contrast seems more obvious now, that government in Russia today is pro-religious, and has a special level of philosemitism.

    Jews in Russia today generate antisemitism by becoming too dominant among the rich class (even though the majority of Jews are not rich, if you look at the most expensive golf club in Moscow half of their photos are of Jewish weddings).

    • Replies: @Daniel H
    >> even though the majority of Jews are not rich, if you look at the most expensive golf club in Moscow half of their photos are of Jewish weddings).

    Well, Julia Ioffe claims that Jews like her and her family were chased onto airplanes in 80s Russia, one step ahead of the pogroms that were hunting down Jews in every back alley in Russia. So, who are you going to believe, Julia Ioffe or your own eyes? (In the old days, you had not choice but to believe the Julia Ioffes.)
  72. @Kevin Brook
    Western Jews including the Jews of Italy, Poland, Greece, and Spain are not so much genetically Italian as was thought ten years ago, but moreso Greek, similar to modern inhabitants of Crete and Sicily. In the olden days, southern Italy (called "Magna Graecia") was already heavily of Greek origin, and Western Jews have significant genetic sharing with Greeks and Southern Italians but not much with Northern Italians and only moderate overlap with Central Italians.

    mtDNA H47 was found in ancient Rome but also in Armenia and the Levant. Other than H47, none of the mtDNA lineages among ancient Roman samples match Ashkenazic mtDNA lineages, so far.

    It would also be inaccurate to describe Jews, or Levantines generally, as genetically half-"Arab", even though some Western Jewish genetic lines here and there (like mtDNA R0a2m) were ultimately Arabian. I don't consider Lebanese people to be true Arabs, and genetically they aren't very Arabian.

    Greek Romaniote Jews are approximately 40.6% Levantine, Sephardic Jews are approximately 38.2% Levantine, and Ashkenazic Jews are approximately 35% Levantine, on average, when we use the ancient samples Levant_LBN_Roman as a basis of comparison. The Ashkenazic gene pool got diluted in the past millennia from occasional intermarriage with Germans and Poles.

    The article in The Guardian is problematic due to its leftist ideological biases and for taking Professor Shlomo Sand seriously. According to his April 14, 2019 interview with Mediapart.fr, Sand is currently writing a French novel that argues against the notion of genetic Jewishness. He is still in denial of the significant indigenous roots of Western Jews in Israel.

    I'm also disappointed by David B. Goldstein's denial of the use of DNA testing to confirm ethnic Jewish heritage and transform understanding of identity.

    The article's examples given of confirming Western Jewish ancestors for ambiguous Israeli immigrants from Russia are mtDNA tests (based on the 4 most common Ashkenazic mtDNA lines) and genetic disease tests. Neither of those is ideal; my method of confirming autosomal DNA segments of Mediterranean character shared with Jews through triangulation and phasing is the most reliable method. Let's say a particular DNA segment has the following matches to it: a Sicilian, a Spaniard, 2 Peruvians, 1 Jew from Turkey, and 15 Ashkenazic Jews. I've seen many matchups like that over the years. What can we say about the ancestor of that segment? That's right, it was a Sephardic ancestor with 99% certainty and only about a 1% chance of being an ethnic Spanish ancestor. Genetic evidence doesn't usually automatically confer citizenship in Israel or Spain nor membership in a synagogue but it's knowledge many people are seeking.

    I also dislike this article's attacks on Greeks and Northwestern Europeans who express interest in their distant ancestors and promote their indigenous status within Europe. At least, in this case, the writer didn't have a double standard for Jews versus Christians in that regard. But he got it wrong in both cases.

    ‘The article in The Guardian is problematic due to its leftist ideological biases and for taking Professor Shlomo Sand seriously. According to his April 14, 2019 interview with Mediapart.fr, Sand is currently writing a French novel that argues against the notion of genetic Jewishness. He is still in denial of the significant indigenous roots of Western Jews in Israel.’

    I notice that you don’t rebut Sand’s actual arguments.

    1. The probable Jewish population of Roman Palestine simply couldn’t have expanded enough quickly enough to account for the Jewish population of the Roman Empire. 100,000 cannot equal 2,000,000 — not in six generations or so. More generous figures assume that all the inhabitants of Palestine were Jews, and they all fled Palestine to settle elsewhere — and both parts of that are demonstrable nonsense.

    2. In the Jewish cemeteries of the Roman Empire, half the names of each successive generation indicate that the deceased was a convert. Do the math on what percentage of a population will remain genetically ‘Jewish’ if half of each generation are converts.

    • Replies: @Kevin Brook
    "I notice that you don’t rebut Sand’s actual arguments."

    Yes I did, I said direct comparisons of modern European Jews versus the "Levant_LBN_Roman" samples from the ancient Levant region (Israel/Lebanon/Syria) showed a 1/3rd match. Sand pretends that European Jews are entirely converted Europeans but that ignores this Levantine component that truly exists. Levantine DNA is easily distinguished from European DNA.

    "The probable Jewish population of Roman Palestine simply couldn’t have expanded enough quickly enough to account for the Jewish population of the Roman Empire. 100,000 cannot equal 2,000,000"

    I believe you are exaggerating the Jewish population of the Roman Empire. Also, the claim of Bar Hebraeus that 10% of the population of the empire was Jewish at the start of the common era is false because he misinterpreted an old Roman census.
    , @Kevin Brook
    I forgot to mention the most damning evidence against Sand. He has been a proponent of the notion that Ashkenazic Jews substantially descend from the Khazars who lived in the far east of Europe and were a mix of Turkic and Caucasian peoples. Tatiana Tatarinova of the University of La Verne and her team of scientists recently compared Ashkenazic Jews' autosomal DNA to medieval Khazar bones but did not find any similarity between the two groups. She presented their findings on May 30, 2019 at the "Centenary of Human Population Genetics" conference in Moscow. This accords with the findings of Doron Behar's team back in 2013 which used modern Turkic peoples as proxies for Khazars. It's far past time for Sand to give it up, but he won't.

    Disclaimer: 20 years ago my views were closer to Sand's and Goldstein's, and both of them cited earlier editions of my book in their books.
    , @Not Raul
    Why would so many people have converted? Was it mainly wives converting to the religion of their husbands? When did this huge wave of conversions start?
    , @gcochran
    Schlomo Sand is wrong. So are you: not least in thinking that there were only 100,000 Jews in Roman Palestine.

    There are a number of factual comments about Jewish ancestry and genetics on this thread: most are wrong.
  73. @Jack D
    When hillbillies marry their cousins, the dumb get dumber. When Jews marry their cousins, the smart get smarter.

    the smart get smarter.

    But not saner.

  74. @Kevin Brook
    Western Jews including the Jews of Italy, Poland, Greece, and Spain are not so much genetically Italian as was thought ten years ago, but moreso Greek, similar to modern inhabitants of Crete and Sicily. In the olden days, southern Italy (called "Magna Graecia") was already heavily of Greek origin, and Western Jews have significant genetic sharing with Greeks and Southern Italians but not much with Northern Italians and only moderate overlap with Central Italians.

    mtDNA H47 was found in ancient Rome but also in Armenia and the Levant. Other than H47, none of the mtDNA lineages among ancient Roman samples match Ashkenazic mtDNA lineages, so far.

    It would also be inaccurate to describe Jews, or Levantines generally, as genetically half-"Arab", even though some Western Jewish genetic lines here and there (like mtDNA R0a2m) were ultimately Arabian. I don't consider Lebanese people to be true Arabs, and genetically they aren't very Arabian.

    Greek Romaniote Jews are approximately 40.6% Levantine, Sephardic Jews are approximately 38.2% Levantine, and Ashkenazic Jews are approximately 35% Levantine, on average, when we use the ancient samples Levant_LBN_Roman as a basis of comparison. The Ashkenazic gene pool got diluted in the past millennia from occasional intermarriage with Germans and Poles.

    The article in The Guardian is problematic due to its leftist ideological biases and for taking Professor Shlomo Sand seriously. According to his April 14, 2019 interview with Mediapart.fr, Sand is currently writing a French novel that argues against the notion of genetic Jewishness. He is still in denial of the significant indigenous roots of Western Jews in Israel.

    I'm also disappointed by David B. Goldstein's denial of the use of DNA testing to confirm ethnic Jewish heritage and transform understanding of identity.

    The article's examples given of confirming Western Jewish ancestors for ambiguous Israeli immigrants from Russia are mtDNA tests (based on the 4 most common Ashkenazic mtDNA lines) and genetic disease tests. Neither of those is ideal; my method of confirming autosomal DNA segments of Mediterranean character shared with Jews through triangulation and phasing is the most reliable method. Let's say a particular DNA segment has the following matches to it: a Sicilian, a Spaniard, 2 Peruvians, 1 Jew from Turkey, and 15 Ashkenazic Jews. I've seen many matchups like that over the years. What can we say about the ancestor of that segment? That's right, it was a Sephardic ancestor with 99% certainty and only about a 1% chance of being an ethnic Spanish ancestor. Genetic evidence doesn't usually automatically confer citizenship in Israel or Spain nor membership in a synagogue but it's knowledge many people are seeking.

    I also dislike this article's attacks on Greeks and Northwestern Europeans who express interest in their distant ancestors and promote their indigenous status within Europe. At least, in this case, the writer didn't have a double standard for Jews versus Christians in that regard. But he got it wrong in both cases.

    I don’t consider Lebanese people to be true Arabs, and genetically they aren’t very Arabian.

    Too civilized.

    not so much genetically Italian as was thought ten years ago, but moreso Greek

    Either way, they’re oily.

  75. @Dave Pinsen
    Edge cases. There are Jewish phenotypes. Not every Jew fits them, and of course converts don’t, but enough do that “looks Jewish” is a common phrase, whereas “looks Christian” isn’t one.

    I agree that there is something to the idea that there are people who “look Jewish”. An important part of the effect is that Jews do not actively proselytize; HBD rules. In fact, rabbis are required to seriously ask three separate times if the person really wants to convert.

    Historically, Jews converting to Christianity is a bit fraught. Jews call it “geshmat“. The root for the word means “annihilation” or “apostasy”. According to the incomparable Leo Rosten, there is a Bulgarian proverb that says “When you baptize a Jew, hold him under for five minutes.”

    Here’s another story:

    On a bitterly cold, snowy, dreadful night in a Polish town, old Salkowitz, feeling that his time had come, called to his wife. “Shurele, please, send someone to the priest and tell him to come right away – I am dying!”
    “The priest? You must have a fever! You mean the rabbi.”
    “I mean the priest!” snapped Salkowitz.
    “May God protect us! Are you secretly geshmat?”
    “No, no; but why disturb the rabbi on a night like this?”

    • Replies: @Anonymous

    An important part of the effect is that Jews do not actively proselytize;
     
    It is more accurate to say they exclude.

    They also strongly discourage outmarriage.
    , @anon
    I appreciate many things about the Jews. Their humour is one of those things.
  76. @John Derbyshire
    https://vdare.com/articles/john-derbyshire-on-john-glad-s-future-human-evolution-eugenics-in-the-twenty-first-century

    Is Chinese script eugenic, too? If you have to master it to breed, it must be.

    Is this essay well-known among old China hands?

    Why Chinese Is So Damn Hard
    by David Moser

    • Replies: @ScarletNumber
    Your link goes the the 10th footnote of the article, rather than the article per se. However, this footnote is illuminating because it references an article from the Oriental Studies department of the University of Pennsylvania from 1986. Obviously such a name wouldn't fly today, but 1986 isn't ancient history, either.
  77. @Reg Cæsar

    You might think that the New York Times Science section is “mainstream,” but what Schwartz means by “mainstream” is “Jewish:”
     
    In Ayn Rand's words, a "stagnant swamp".

    “Because Ashkenazi communities have a history of marrying in..."
     
    You could solve this problem by settling for perfectly good Sephardic mates. But nobody wants to settle.

    Haim Saban's girlfriend's Polish-born mother called him "that black animal", and threatened to jump to her death if he entered their house.

    When I was 16 and attending a Jewish day-school in Melbourne, Australia
     
    The joke down under is that Sydney is a warm city with cold Jews, while Melbourne is a cold city with warm Jews.

    Canada must have her own stereotypes regarding Toronto and Montreal.

    There aren’t many Polish born mothers left. Sephardi Ashkenazi marriages in Israel are super common.

  78. I might be out of line but at 100% Jewish ancestry, a Jew looks like you.

  79. Those Russians could just convert if their DNA ended up not being Jewish. Then they would be fully accepted.

    The problem is, you have to live religiously if you convert – at least for a while, and even many Israelis don’t.

    But there is an older definition of the convert as someone who primarily joins the Jewish nation, and only after the religion – based on a passage in Ruth. This would make it not strictly necessary to follow the religion in order to become Jewish.

    Apparently, this looser definition of conversion used to be the accepted one, but the Rabbis changed it to following the religion – probably, because that demonstrates more skin in the game.

    • Replies: @Anonymous

    probably, because that demonstrates more skin in the game.
     
    In this context, what does skin in the game even mean and why would they care about it?
  80. @Reg Cæsar

    “looks Jewish” is a common phrase, whereas “looks Christian” isn’t one.
     
    When Dani Shapiro told her father's other daughter that DNA showed that they weren't half-sisters at all (she was conceived by an until-then anonymous sperm "donor"), the other woman said she always suspected something. "You looked so... Christian."

    She certainly does.

    https://danishapiro.com/


    https://www.publishersweekly.com/images/cached/ARTICLE_PHOTO/photo/000/000/059/59369-v1-600x.JPG

    So Mom was screwing around?

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    So Mom was screwing around?
     
    I don't know what the family's rabbi would say-- he apparently winked at it-- but according to Christian churches, and the Illinois legislature in the 1950s (almost), use of third-party sperm for impregnation is adultery.

    And adulteration, in a way.
  81. @Anon7
    If a 100% Ashkenazi Jewish woman marries a gentile, the children are all Jewish. Even though they are only 50% Ashkenazi. And that would be true if one of the daughters married a gentile, the children would be only 25% Ashkenazi, but still Jewish. And so on.

    That's why you can't tell who's Jewish by looking. I went out with a woman who identified as Jewish, and she looked quite Jewish, and by Jewish law was indeed Jewish. Except that she was adopted into a Jewish family, so who knows what her genetic heritage was. Her sisters, on the other hand, looked like blonde shiksas, because their Jewish father had married a gentile, and then had her convert to Judaism.

    You shouldn’t blindly adopt jewish racial slurs for blonde women. And if you are, use terms like kikes at the very least to even the balance for those who use it.

    • Replies: @Clyde
    I knew blonde Jewish girls and girlfriends back in 1968. So drop dead fred.
    , @Anon7
    You’re right, “shiksa” had a negative connotation. OTOH I know a lot of Jewish men who married non-Jewish women.
  82. Oscar’s grandmother: And what exactly does a Jew look like?

    Nice that wrongthink existed back then and isn’t necessarily a modern phenomena.

    Also, there are plenty of websites who would be happy to answer the question, rhetorical or not.

  83. @Dave Pinsen
    Edge cases. There are Jewish phenotypes. Not every Jew fits them, and of course converts don’t, but enough do that “looks Jewish” is a common phrase, whereas “looks Christian” isn’t one.

    “looks Christian” isn’t [a common phrase]

    True, but you can notice someone is Christian because they look like a nationality that is traditionally Christian. Also, the term WASP has fallen out of favor but they have a look about them as well.

    Speaking of which, I used to work with a woman who looked Jewish and had a traditional Jewish last name. When she mentioned visiting her parents one December I asked if she still got gelt. She gave me a puzzled look and she had no idea what I was talking about. It turns out that her mother wasn’t Jewish so she wasn’t, and they celebrated Christmas, Easter, et al. Although, when she was younger her paternal grandfather did give her gelt, except the term wasn’t used.

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    WASPs certainly have a look, as that’s an also an ethnic group. But Christians can look like anyone from the based Cardinal Sarah to the Pope.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Sarah#/media/File%3ACardinal_Robert_Sarah_(cropped).JPG
  84. Steve,

    https://www.the-american-interest.com/2018/05/24/atonement-as-activism/

    I believe this to be exactly down your alley.

    • Replies: @vinteuil
    McWhorter means well, I guess, but he fundamentally misunderstands what's going on with "wokeness" - which involves not a bit of self- hatred, and no real sense that they have anything to atone for.
    , @Reg Cæsar
    It's sad that genuinely smart black men like McWhorter and Thomas Sowell, who have valuable things to say on real subjects, have to waste their time addressing race hustles.

    It was sad, though, to see the linguistically adept McWhorter write this atrocity:


    the good white person views themselves
  85. @Anon7
    If a 100% Ashkenazi Jewish woman marries a gentile, the children are all Jewish. Even though they are only 50% Ashkenazi. And that would be true if one of the daughters married a gentile, the children would be only 25% Ashkenazi, but still Jewish. And so on.

    That's why you can't tell who's Jewish by looking. I went out with a woman who identified as Jewish, and she looked quite Jewish, and by Jewish law was indeed Jewish. Except that she was adopted into a Jewish family, so who knows what her genetic heritage was. Her sisters, on the other hand, looked like blonde shiksas, because their Jewish father had married a gentile, and then had her convert to Judaism.

    Many years ago, when I asked a Jewish friend what the word “mamzer” meant, he replied “bastard”. Later I learned that “bastard” captures neither the denotation nor connotation of “mamzer” as it is used in the Torah, Mishna, and Talmud. In those sources a mamzer is essentially the offspring of any illegitimate union between a Jew and a non-Jew or two Jews. Mamzers and their descendants are denied full admission to the congregation of Israel for ten generations, i.e., effectively forever. By Halachic law, unless a Jewish woman is legitimately married to a man who is a natural born, non-mamzer Jew or a non-Jew whose conversion to Judaism is rabbinicaly recognized her offspring will be mamzerim. Even in the latter case, I believe that many rabbis would argue that the offspring are mamzerim. So mtDNA may not be sufficient criteria for establishing whether a person is truly and fully a Jew. I’m curious how Israel’s current Sanhedrin settles these issues but not curious enough to do the research.

    • Replies: @Anon
    Here is a Brief on the Jewish Mishnaic Scale of Lineages.

    Legitimate converts are not to be trusted for 22 generations (as you remark, essentially never). Doctrinally, Judaism is a genetic group and no more than that:

    Maimonides on Judaism & the Jewish People (1991)
    Menachem Marc Kellner

    https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=6HlxxKP1AtAC&lpg=PA5&ots=fik19PoUQN&dq=jewish%20converts%20inferior&pg=PA5#v=onepage&q=%22Halevi%20meets%20the%22&f=false

    How do Jewish converts feel knowing "native" Jews consider them inferior & a hindrance to the messiahs arrival?

    "Halevi (12th century Jewish poet & "philosopher") meets the problem of conversion by arguing that converts are indeed not the equals of native Jews and that only after many generations, so it would seem, can their descendants be fully amalgamated into the Jewish people. To adopt a brilliant and amusing metaphor of Daniel J. Lasker's, just as IBM PC clones may run the same software as original IBM hardware, but are still not the real thing; so, too, converts may believe what native Jews believe, and act as they do (software), they are still not the same as native Jews (hardware)."
     

    Jewish Identity in Early Rabbinic Writings
    By Sacha Stern
    p. 94

    http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ekhqsS8GKo8C&lpg=PA92&dq=jewish%20converts%20inferior&pg=PA94#v=onepage&q=%22the%20Midrash%20remarks:%20%22do%20not%20trust%20the%20convert,%20even%20after%20the%2022nd%20generation22%20(according%20to%20another%20source,%20for%207%20generations%20a%20convert%20cannot%20be%20trusted%20not%20to%20have%20returned%20to%20his%20old%20ways).&f=false

    "the Midrash remarks: "do not trust the convert, even after the 22nd generation" (according to another source, for 7 generations a convert cannot be trusted not to
    have returned to his old ways).

     

    Jewish Identity in Early Rabbinic Writings
    By Sacha Stern
    p. 94

    http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ekhqsS8GKo8C&lpg=PA92&dq=jewish%20converts%20inferior&pg=PA94#v=onepage&q=%22converts%20are%20also%20a%20hindrance%20to%20the%20coming%20of%20the%20Messiah%22&f=false

    "converts are also a hindrance to the coming of the Messiah"
     

    Jewish Identity in Early Rabbinic Writings
    By Sacha Stern
    p. 94

    https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ekhqsS8GKo8C&lpg=PA92&dq=jewish%20converts%20inferior&pg=PA94#v=onepage&q=%22his%20tendency%20to%20lapse%20is%20considered%20a%20liability%20to%20Israel%2C%20which%20explains%20Rabbi%20Helbo's%20well-known%20saying%3A%20%22converts%20are%20as%20difficult%20to%20Israel%20as%20leprosy%22&f=false

    "... his tendency to lapse is considered a liability to Israel, which explains Rabbi Helbo's well-known saying: "converts are as difficult to Israel as leprosy". The Babylonian Talmud treats the converts with suspicion: it wonders whether their motives were indeed sincere, and why they waited so long to convert; it also suspects them of acting out of fear rather than out of love. If a convert is suspected of (transgressing) a single commandment, he must be suspected of (transgressing) the whole Torah."
     

    Jewish Identity in Early Rabbinic Writings
    By Sacha Stern
    p. 92

    https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ekhqsS8GKo8C&lpg=PA92&dq=jewish%20converts%20inferior&pg=PA92#v=onepage&q=%22In%20certain%20contexts%20the%20convert%20is%20distinguished%20from%20the%20Jewish-born%20as%20having%20inferior%20status.%22&f=false

    Jews listed in order of importance (most to least)

    "In certain contexts the convert is distinguished from the Jewish-born as having inferior status. In the liturgy, he cannot refer to the Patriarchs as "our forefathers". More importantly, his lineage is inferior to that of most Jewish-born, as according to the mishnaic scale of lineages (yohasin):

    1. Priest (cohen)
    2. Levite
    3. Israel (ordinary Jews)
    4. Impaired priest (descendent of a cohen who'd broken the marriage rules)
    5. Convert
    6. Freedman (former slave)
    5. Bastard
    6. Natin (Gibeonite) (Jews forbidden to marry ordinary Jews)
    7. Silent (of unknown fatherhood)
    8. Foundling (abandoned as a child)"
     

    , @AaronB
    Incorrect.

    Anyone born to a Jewish woman is automatically a Jew. The father can be a Swahili devil worshipper.

    In biblical tines descent was patriarchal, but the Rabbis changed it.
    , @Anon7
    As is often the case with Yiddish, words like “momzer” can also be used admiringly, referring to someone who had to be clever to succeed:

    So this guy was trying to talk a girl into coming back to his apartment late one night.
    “But I’ll hate myself in the morning...”
    “So, sleep in.” Momzer.

     

  86. anonymous[436] • Disclaimer says:

    Anti Whites demand: Diversity’, ‘anti racism’, mass immigration and assimilation… for White peoples only.

    Why is open borders a White ‘Privilege’?

    If it’s because of slavery, colonialism, etc. then wheres the attention on the colonizing and enslaving Turks, Japanese, Mongolians, to name a few, or the ongoing colonization of North Africa? Why not help the Slavs and the Irish, brutally enslaved by the Islamic world in particular?

    Why no support for the racial minority Whites being raped and tortured – literally, not figuratively tortured – to death in South Africa?

    Because ‘anti racist’ is Code for Anti White.
    And ‘diversity’ is Code for White G-

  87. @Jack D
    When hillbillies marry their cousins, the dumb get dumber. When Jews marry their cousins, the smart get smarter.

    And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch? The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.

    And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother’s eye.

    For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

    Hillbilly Luke, Chapter 6

  88. @Jack D
    When hillbillies marry their cousins, the dumb get dumber. When Jews marry their cousins, the smart get smarter.

    “When Jews marry their cousins, the smart get smarter.”

    And more prone to a wide variety of horrible and/or loathsome physical and mental defects and diseases.

    IQ is not the sine qua non of Darwinian fitness. It has helped Ashkenaz Jews to thrive in accomodating host populations but the negative traits that inbreeding has associated with intelligence in Ashkenaz Jewish populations -the only Jewish populations demomstrating exceptionally high average IQs – may decrease Darwinian fitness in other settings.

    BTW, Jews traditionally have also encouraged uncle-niece marriages, something which most hillbillies I’ve known would look upon askance.

    • Replies: @Lot
    “BTW, Jews traditionally have also encouraged uncle-niece marriages, something which most hillbillies I’ve known would look upon askance.”

    Source? I have never heard of this. Perhaps plausible among Yemeni Jews who more than other groups have gone native.

    “Hillbillies” do have a slightly higher rate of inbreeding than other white Americans, but still very low by European standards, which in turn are low by world standards.

    , @Jack D

    but the negative traits that inbreeding has associated with intelligence in Ashkenaz Jewish populations -the only Jewish populations demomstrating exceptionally high average IQs – may decrease Darwinian fitness in other settings.
     
    That's true - we know how unsuited Jews are for the modern world. They are like Amazonian Indians or aborigines - completely unable to cope with modernity. Once taken from their shteltls and confronted with novel situations or societies, they just fell to pieces.
  89. @Reg Cæsar
    Is Chinese script eugenic, too? If you have to master it to breed, it must be.

    Is this essay well-known among old China hands?

    Why Chinese Is So Damn Hard
    by David Moser

    Your link goes the the 10th footnote of the article, rather than the article per se. However, this footnote is illuminating because it references an article from the Oriental Studies department of the University of Pennsylvania from 1986. Obviously such a name wouldn’t fly today, but 1986 isn’t ancient history, either.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    Here's the link to Moser's essay:

    http://www.pinyin.info/readings/texts/moser.html
  90. Anonymous[337] • Disclaimer says:

    Historically always best to look first to how a group defines itself first, then their greatest antagonist. In this case National Socialist Germany. Not surprisingly both arrived at roughly the same definitional structures for their various purposes, though a patriarchal country like 30s Germany didn’t equivocate about matrileneal.

  91. @Dave Pinsen
    Edge cases. There are Jewish phenotypes. Not every Jew fits them, and of course converts don’t, but enough do that “looks Jewish” is a common phrase, whereas “looks Christian” isn’t one.

    I can often identify Jews (for example, Jewish celebrities), without prior knowledge.

    However, pure Jewish races, themselves are 3-4 different races even in Russia (in Israel, there are dozens of other Jewish races, most are dark brown, and some even black).

    For example, in Russia – Bukharan Jews are brown (girl on left) and look the same as Muslim nationalities of their home region. While Ashkenazi Jews (on right this is Jewish oligarch Roman Abramovich) can be appear from white to brown.

    View this post on Instagram

    On the way to Moscow ✈️🇷🇺

    A post shared by Masha Chigirinskaya (@masha_chigirinskaya) on

    ^ It’s two different Jewish races.

    While Armenian Jews, look the same as Armenian Christian population to my eyes: On right is Armenian Christian girl and on left is an Armenian Jewess. Both Armenian Christians and Armenian Jews – it looks externally like the same race.

    View this post on Instagram

    МК💕

    A post shared by Mimi〽️🔯 (@milana_pich) on

    While secular modern Ashkenazi Jews in Russian, intermarried and adopt to their host area. If you look at the secular Jewish youth camps in Siberia nowadays – they mostly don’t look like different race anymore (much of the Ashkenazi population in Russia, has been partially swallowed)

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    It’s true that putative Jewish phenotypes in the West don’t cover the full spectrum of Jewish appearance, particularly that of non-Ashkenazi Jews.
    , @Lot
    Re the last video, yes, they look awfully light featured compared to US AJs.

    The lightest Jews are the “Lithuanians” who actually extend into Latvia Belarus and Russia.

    The rate of myopia among those Russian-Jewish was exceptionally high. And since they are running around at camp, they’d probably not wear their glasses if their myopia was slight.

    Since this was a summer camp, the kids have had some sun exposure. Part of Jewdar is looking for a strong contrast between white skin and dark hair. But sun makes hair lighter and skin tanner or ruddier, reducing this contrast.

    Here’s another photo of Oscar. In Steve’s pic his curly hair and pale skin make him look very Jewish. With short hair and tanner skin he only looks vaguely so. (Just a guess, the pic below he’s younger and still living in sunny Australia, and in Steve’s he’s in cloudy England).

    https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/image/8942166-3x4-340x453.jpg
    , @Jack D

    While Ashkenazi Jews (on right this is Jewish oligarch Roman Abramovich) can be appear from white to brown.
     
    While Ashkenazi Jews can have very dark or black hair, they rarely have an olive or brown complexion. Of course they can get a suntan but their natural skin color is rarely dark. As Lot says, a typical "tell" for Ashkenazi Jews is pale skin combined with dark hair. If an Italian or Greek has dark hair then his skin usually matches but in Ashkenazi Jews it doesn't.
    , @Anon
    The Milana Pich photo shows strong signs of selfie auto filtering, eye enlargment, nose, mouth, and chin reduction, skin smoothing.

    We've entered a period where future generations are going to wonder what people really looked like, similar to the powdered wig period in Europe where all paintings of people show them with giant wigs. What did Samuel Pepys really look like?
    , @Bardon Kaldian

    If you look at the secular Jewish youth camps in Siberia nowadays
     
    Ahahah, sorry, but I had to laugh (historical associations)....
  92. Something disconcerting in the concept of blood-Jewishness? Apparently sucker has been taken in. The evils of “ethno-nationalism” [sic] and scientific racism exist for Whitey. You’re supposed to be in on the century-long conjob of HBD-denialism.

    Go live with the rubes. The carnival has another town to get to.

  93. @Anonymous
    I notice that he used the term ethno nationalism. Seems the alt right has made them sit up and take notice.

    No, that’s an oxymoron they use to delegitimize nationalism. Though I guess they might not bother delegitimizing if the National Question had not been raised.

  94. @Anon
    More and more discussions of "race science" and denunciations of it are doing so by getting down into the scientific weeds. Previously it was considered to be platforming of evil to even describe the science at that level.

    You were supposed to do a lateral and start talking about Francis Galton (who was for some reason I never understood a bad guy) and Hitler, and then segue into a six degrees of Kevin Bacon maneuver to associate everything with the Pioneer Fund.

    William Saletan was an early example, who learned his lesson, but more recently Eric Levitz of New York Magazine is a writer who seems weirdly familiar with stuff that you'd almost have to be a regular reader of iSteve to know.

    “for some reason I never understood a bad guy”

    Because “eugenics.” Which is a dirty word among people who also advocate for a woman’s right to murder her children to avoid stretchmarks.

    • Replies: @Alden
    Without legal abortion this country would be about 25 percent black instead of 12 percent black. crime rate would be sky high due to the presence of so many black and Hispanic criminals. Our public schools would be even worse than they are now with so many retarded black and Hispanic thugs in them.

    Crime peaks about 15 to 40 years after a black Hispanic baby boom.

    Did you know that there were actually more abortions before abortion was legalized than after it was legalized? Of course not moron. Do you know why? Of course not

    How many White children have you brought into the world by the way?

    All these childless old codgers against abortion.

    I propose a new tax regulation. Every person who favors legal abortion gets a 50 percent deduction on all taxes including sales, property, vechicle registration all taxes.

    Every person against abortion pays 50 percent more on all taxes to support all the black and Hispanic criminals and welfare slugs you want born.

    Here’s some questions moron; in what year was abortion made first made illegal? in what country? In what year did the Pope declare abortion is murder and forbidden to Catholics ?
  95. @Mr McKenna

    “looks Jewish” is a common phrase, whereas “looks Christian” isn’t one.
     
    The hell you say!

    https://i.ibb.co/2jpWvft/White-American-Family-1950s.png

    Do Mexicans look Christian ? How about Filipinos 80% of Blacks are Christian , just 70% of white Americans are Christian. Half the Christians in America today are not even white.

    • Agree: Desiderius
  96. @Cagey Beast
    OT:
    https://twitter.com/MicheSutter/status/1139584136929107968

    Michele Sutter spelled, “half as good,” funny.

  97. @ScarletNumber

    “looks Christian” isn’t [a common phrase]
     
    True, but you can notice someone is Christian because they look like a nationality that is traditionally Christian. Also, the term WASP has fallen out of favor but they have a look about them as well.

    Speaking of which, I used to work with a woman who looked Jewish and had a traditional Jewish last name. When she mentioned visiting her parents one December I asked if she still got gelt. She gave me a puzzled look and she had no idea what I was talking about. It turns out that her mother wasn't Jewish so she wasn't, and they celebrated Christmas, Easter, et al. Although, when she was younger her paternal grandfather did give her gelt, except the term wasn't used.

    WASPs certainly have a look, as that’s an also an ethnic group. But Christians can look like anyone from the based Cardinal Sarah to the Pope.

  98. @Jus' Sayin'...

    "When Jews marry their cousins, the smart get smarter."
     
    And more prone to a wide variety of horrible and/or loathsome physical and mental defects and diseases.

    IQ is not the sine qua non of Darwinian fitness. It has helped Ashkenaz Jews to thrive in accomodating host populations but the negative traits that inbreeding has associated with intelligence in Ashkenaz Jewish populations -the only Jewish populations demomstrating exceptionally high average IQs - may decrease Darwinian fitness in other settings.

    BTW, Jews traditionally have also encouraged uncle-niece marriages, something which most hillbillies I've known would look upon askance.

    “BTW, Jews traditionally have also encouraged uncle-niece marriages, something which most hillbillies I’ve known would look upon askance.”

    Source? I have never heard of this. Perhaps plausible among Yemeni Jews who more than other groups have gone native.

    “Hillbillies” do have a slightly higher rate of inbreeding than other white Americans, but still very low by European standards, which in turn are low by world standards.

    • Replies: @Flip
    The Rothschilds had a few uncle/niece marriages early on.
    , @Reg Cæsar


    “BTW, Jews traditionally have also encouraged uncle-niece marriages, something which most hillbillies I’ve known would look upon askance.”
     
    Source? I have never heard of this. Perhaps plausible among Yemeni Jews who more than other groups have gone native.
     
    This was accepted in the Sephardic culture that came to America centuries before the Ashkenazi. So much so that a provision was written in Rhode Island law to accommodate it. That law is on the books to this day.


    In Rhode Island, Jews Can Marry Their Relatives!
    , @Jus' Sayin'...
    "The Talmud endorsed marriages between uncles and nieces; although some early Jewish religious communities, such as the Sadducees, believed that such unions were prohibited by the Torah."

    "James Mayer de Rothschild, founder of the French branch of the Rothschild banking family, and his niece Betty Salomon von Rothschild (c. 1825)."

    source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avunculate_marriage

    I found it interesting, while perusing this to discover that Adolf Hitler was the issue of an avunculate marriage just as I was intrigued to discover that Hitler and Wittgenstein were schoolmates for a time.
    , @Anonymous
    'Source? I have never heard of this. '

    Ive heard of it plenty. Look up the Rothschilds the most fampus Jewish family in hostoy. They were well known for it.
    , @Alden
    Rothschild girls sometimes really did marry blood, not by marriage uncles. In fact uncle blood niece marriage is still legal in Rhode Island because there was a big Jewish community there in Newport in colonial times. It was common enough with those colonial Jews that they got it written into the laws.

    I don’t know what the Rothschild’s did before old Mayer got rich but his 10 children all married and had children and all of the grandchildren married first cousins. The 10 Rothschild children didn’t marry into 10 other families . They married into just 7 other families.

    So some of the Rothschild grandchildren were double first cousins who married cousins and double first cousins. This continued for generations and when there were no male cousins some of the girls married blood uncles

    All this in breeding doesn’t seem to have harmed Rothschild brains health and looks at all.

    I have a friend whose parents are first cousins. They were farmers from a polish area where there weren’t many Jewish farmers. So they married first cousins for generations.

    He and one brother are lawyers. Other brother is an engineer. All normal. Best looking Jewish men I’ve ever seen. They look a lot like that actor Omar Sharif who played Dr. Zhivago.

    Maybe first cousin marriage isn’t so bad. Look what it did for the Rothschilds. And European royalty for 1500 years.
  99. @Dmitry
    I can often identify Jews (for example, Jewish celebrities), without prior knowledge.

    However, pure Jewish races, themselves are 3-4 different races even in Russia (in Israel, there are dozens of other Jewish races, most are dark brown, and some even black).


    -

    For example, in Russia - Bukharan Jews are brown (girl on left) and look the same as Muslim nationalities of their home region. While Ashkenazi Jews (on right this is Jewish oligarch Roman Abramovich) can be appear from white to brown.

    https://www.instagram.com/p/p8xW4iwikq

    ^ It's two different Jewish races.


    While Armenian Jews, look the same as Armenian Christian population to my eyes: On right is Armenian Christian girl and on left is an Armenian Jewess. Both Armenian Christians and Armenian Jews - it looks externally like the same race.

    https://www.instagram.com/p/BJOWjBAgs3J/

    -

    While secular modern Ashkenazi Jews in Russian, intermarried and adopt to their host area. If you look at the secular Jewish youth camps in Siberia nowadays - they mostly don't look like different race anymore (much of the Ashkenazi population in Russia, has been partially swallowed)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rr5r2JWqOpY

    It’s true that putative Jewish phenotypes in the West don’t cover the full spectrum of Jewish appearance, particularly that of non-Ashkenazi Jews.

  100. @Travis
    so true. Ashkenazi Jews are all closer genetically to each other than most Americans are to their fourth cousins. On average a white American will shares about .20% of their DNA with a fourth cousin, while Ashkenazi Jews will share 1.5% of their DNA with a fourth Cousin

    My best friend is half Ashkenazi, his mother was jewish.. When he did 23andme it listed his 1,500 closest relatives....99% were Jewish despite having more known Paternal relatives, his paternal family had settled in America prior to the 1800s. Yet while he shared .8% of his DNA with a paternal third cousin , he shared .8% of his DNA with hundreds of Ashkenazi Jews who were distant cousins, on his maternal side. His actual third cousins on his Ashkenazi side shared 7% of their DNA with him , more typical of a first cousin. Any Jew who tested at 23anmde will realize how inbred they are, as second and third cousins will appear as first cousins and first cousins will be predicted Aunts and Uncles....

    Usually Americans with deep roots in America will find lots of potential fourth cousins at 23andme. Although 25% of your fourth cousins will share zero DNA with you. It is interesting to see how many of my matches , who are fourth cousins , do not share any DNA with my sister. And vice verse, about 25% of her matches share zero DNA with me. Thus a typical American will not even share any DNA with a confirmed fifth cousin, while Ashkenazi Jews will share a minimum of .2% with all Ashkenazi Jews.

    Observed the same pattern on 23andme with my wife. She is just 5% Ashkenazi , yet almost half of her DNA matches are Jews. Her Father was Italian and her mother from Argentina so she does not have many cousins who have tested.

  101. Anonymous[377] • Disclaimer says:
    @dearieme
    Probably more precise to say "half Palestinian" or "half Levantine" or even "half Canaanite".

    Probably more precise to say “half Palestinian” or “half Levantine” or even “half Canaanite”.

    Why is that more precise? Aren’t those people Arabs or significantly related to them? What is wrong with half Arab?

    • Replies: @notanon
    Arabs invaded the Levant later.
  102. Anonymous[377] • Disclaimer says:
    @Logan
    There's always been an Italy, as a geographical region. Though Italy as a mostly united nation or state has existed only intermittently,

    There’s always been an Italy, as a geographical region. Though Italy as a mostly united nation or state has existed only intermittently

    There haven’t always been “Italians.” Even now, that is a dubious ethnic category in view of the diversity throughout the country.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
    'There haven’t always been “Italians.” Even now, that is a dubious ethnic category in view of the diversity throughout the country.'

    That'd be especially true of Italy. There were Gauls and Greeks, then being the center of the Roman Empire would have brought in a lot of alien blood, then there were German tribes from the North, and then Greeks again, and then Arab invaders, and then Normans. Not to mention Frenchmen and Spaniards and Austrians of various types stomping around more recently. And the probable genetic effects of the Genoese and Venetian overseas empires. For example, I'm plowing through a samizdat text of Toaff's Blood Passover. Well, we've got a Jew from Crete settling in Venice.

    Genetically, 'an Italian' has to be one of the hazier concepts out there.
  103. @Anonymouse
    I am a great iSteve fan considering him to be perhaps the most prolific interesting commentator in the Internet cloud. The need to keep producing interesting thoughts day after day is a heavy task. No surprise that Steve reprises his historical preoccupations. I have never played a game of golf - aside miniature golf - although my retired brother-in-law plays frequently. Yet Steve's observations about the design and social history of American golf courses are entertaining. I am writing to share my feelings about another of his golden oldie subjects: the Jews. Although I am one, the real-world role of jews historically and in the present has a smaller share of my thoughts than those of Steve. Steve's treatment of the subject seems to me to be objective and scientific, unlike the run of articles on his host website. For which I am grateful, even in such cases as when he says nothing new about them (hard to do considering the enormous attention they have attracted). I am also grateful for the relative absence of jew haters in the comments here when compared to the number of those on his host website. I have always wondered where that comes from. A psychological explanation of that phenomenon among his countrymen is proposed by Sartre in the first half of his Réflexions sur la question juive. To my mind, it rings true to a certain extent but is not comprehensive.

    I am also grateful for the relative absence of jew haters in the comments here when compared to the number of those on his host website. I have always wondered where that comes from.

    It comes from efforts by Jews to censor.

  104. @Lot
    “BTW, Jews traditionally have also encouraged uncle-niece marriages, something which most hillbillies I’ve known would look upon askance.”

    Source? I have never heard of this. Perhaps plausible among Yemeni Jews who more than other groups have gone native.

    “Hillbillies” do have a slightly higher rate of inbreeding than other white Americans, but still very low by European standards, which in turn are low by world standards.

    The Rothschilds had a few uncle/niece marriages early on.

  105. Anonymous[377] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anon7
    I agree that there is something to the idea that there are people who "look Jewish". An important part of the effect is that Jews do not actively proselytize; HBD rules. In fact, rabbis are required to seriously ask three separate times if the person really wants to convert.

    Historically, Jews converting to Christianity is a bit fraught. Jews call it "geshmat". The root for the word means "annihilation" or "apostasy". According to the incomparable Leo Rosten, there is a Bulgarian proverb that says "When you baptize a Jew, hold him under for five minutes."

    Here's another story:

    On a bitterly cold, snowy, dreadful night in a Polish town, old Salkowitz, feeling that his time had come, called to his wife. "Shurele, please, send someone to the priest and tell him to come right away - I am dying!"
    "The priest? You must have a fever! You mean the rabbi."
    "I mean the priest!" snapped Salkowitz.
    "May God protect us! Are you secretly geshmat?"
    "No, no; but why disturb the rabbi on a night like this?"

    An important part of the effect is that Jews do not actively proselytize;

    It is more accurate to say they exclude.

    They also strongly discourage outmarriage.

    • Replies: @Shmendrix
    Of all the misinformation and outright horseshit on this thread, this one takes the cake. Yes, Jews so strongly discourage intermarriage that in the US, close to 60% currently marry out.
    , @Anon7
    They also strongly discourage outmarriage.

    Well, then they’d better do something about their women, because I know a fair number of Jewish guys who remarried to Gentiles after their modern Jewish brides divorced them.
  106. @Flip
    A substantial portion of Ashkenazi Jews have blue eyes and pale skin. How does that square with ancestry from the Middle East and Greece or Italy?

    I did mention “occasional intermarriage with Germans and Poles.” About 3% German and 5-12% Polish, to varying degrees depending on the individual. That would explain some, but not all, of the blue eyes and light skin and probably most of the instances of blond hair. At least one of the red hair genes in the Ashkenazic population has a northern European source, though perhaps that’s not the only red hair gene Ashkenazim have (even 100% Levantine Samaritans sometimes have red hair and light skin).

    Deep ancestry tests with LivingDNA, nMonte, and Eurogenes calculators really all do confirm that the vast majority of Ashkenazic DNA is Mediterranean.

    • Replies: @Jay Fink
    The Dodecad Ancestry Project took my raw DNA from 23andme (who says I am 100% Ashkenazi) and gave me my closest genetic distance. Here are my top 5.

    Ashkenazi Jew
    Romanian Jew
    Sicilian
    Greek
    Southern Italian

    Look at all that Mediterranean yet I have light skin and blue eyes..no dark or stereotypically Jewish looking features at all.
  107. Anonymous[377] • Disclaimer says:
    @AaronB
    Those Russians could just convert if their DNA ended up not being Jewish. Then they would be fully accepted.

    The problem is, you have to live religiously if you convert - at least for a while, and even many Israelis don't.

    But there is an older definition of the convert as someone who primarily joins the Jewish nation, and only after the religion - based on a passage in Ruth. This would make it not strictly necessary to follow the religion in order to become Jewish.

    Apparently, this looser definition of conversion used to be the accepted one, but the Rabbis changed it to following the religion - probably, because that demonstrates more skin in the game.

    probably, because that demonstrates more skin in the game.

    In this context, what does skin in the game even mean and why would they care about it?

  108. Lot says:
    @Dmitry
    I can often identify Jews (for example, Jewish celebrities), without prior knowledge.

    However, pure Jewish races, themselves are 3-4 different races even in Russia (in Israel, there are dozens of other Jewish races, most are dark brown, and some even black).


    -

    For example, in Russia - Bukharan Jews are brown (girl on left) and look the same as Muslim nationalities of their home region. While Ashkenazi Jews (on right this is Jewish oligarch Roman Abramovich) can be appear from white to brown.

    https://www.instagram.com/p/p8xW4iwikq

    ^ It's two different Jewish races.


    While Armenian Jews, look the same as Armenian Christian population to my eyes: On right is Armenian Christian girl and on left is an Armenian Jewess. Both Armenian Christians and Armenian Jews - it looks externally like the same race.

    https://www.instagram.com/p/BJOWjBAgs3J/

    -

    While secular modern Ashkenazi Jews in Russian, intermarried and adopt to their host area. If you look at the secular Jewish youth camps in Siberia nowadays - they mostly don't look like different race anymore (much of the Ashkenazi population in Russia, has been partially swallowed)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rr5r2JWqOpY

    Re the last video, yes, they look awfully light featured compared to US AJs.

    The lightest Jews are the “Lithuanians” who actually extend into Latvia Belarus and Russia.

    The rate of myopia among those Russian-Jewish was exceptionally high. And since they are running around at camp, they’d probably not wear their glasses if their myopia was slight.

    Since this was a summer camp, the kids have had some sun exposure. Part of Jewdar is looking for a strong contrast between white skin and dark hair. But sun makes hair lighter and skin tanner or ruddier, reducing this contrast.

    Here’s another photo of Oscar. In Steve’s pic his curly hair and pale skin make him look very Jewish. With short hair and tanner skin he only looks vaguely so. (Just a guess, the pic below he’s younger and still living in sunny Australia, and in Steve’s he’s in cloudy England).

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    Mountain Jews, for example, are still a very dark brown race. While it's Ashkenazi Jews in Russia, became mainly white.

    If you look at different kinds of Jews next to each other today - in cities with different kinds of Jews, it's become at least 3 different races sharing the same religion.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyDKOz03XME

    , @AnonAnon

    Part of Jewdar is looking for a strong contrast between white skin and dark hair.
     
    That’s a weak indicator since other ethnicities have the pale skin/dark hair combo. Hair thickness and texture, e.g., “jewfro,” is more useful. I think the shape of mouth/lips is a better tip-off. Cheekbones are a factor, too, but the mouth is the best one.
  109. @Colin Wright
    'The article in The Guardian is problematic due to its leftist ideological biases and for taking Professor Shlomo Sand seriously. According to his April 14, 2019 interview with Mediapart.fr, Sand is currently writing a French novel that argues against the notion of genetic Jewishness. He is still in denial of the significant indigenous roots of Western Jews in Israel.'

    I notice that you don't rebut Sand's actual arguments.

    1. The probable Jewish population of Roman Palestine simply couldn't have expanded enough quickly enough to account for the Jewish population of the Roman Empire. 100,000 cannot equal 2,000,000 -- not in six generations or so. More generous figures assume that all the inhabitants of Palestine were Jews, and they all fled Palestine to settle elsewhere -- and both parts of that are demonstrable nonsense.

    2. In the Jewish cemeteries of the Roman Empire, half the names of each successive generation indicate that the deceased was a convert. Do the math on what percentage of a population will remain genetically 'Jewish' if half of each generation are converts.

    “I notice that you don’t rebut Sand’s actual arguments.”

    Yes I did, I said direct comparisons of modern European Jews versus the “Levant_LBN_Roman” samples from the ancient Levant region (Israel/Lebanon/Syria) showed a 1/3rd match. Sand pretends that European Jews are entirely converted Europeans but that ignores this Levantine component that truly exists. Levantine DNA is easily distinguished from European DNA.

    “The probable Jewish population of Roman Palestine simply couldn’t have expanded enough quickly enough to account for the Jewish population of the Roman Empire. 100,000 cannot equal 2,000,000”

    I believe you are exaggerating the Jewish population of the Roman Empire. Also, the claim of Bar Hebraeus that 10% of the population of the empire was Jewish at the start of the common era is false because he misinterpreted an old Roman census.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
    'I believe you are exaggerating the Jewish population of the Roman Empire. Also, the claim of Bar Hebraeus that 10% of the population of the empire was Jewish at the start of the common era is false because he misinterpreted an old Roman census.'

    It's certainly true that all pre-modern statistics need to be treated with caution.

    However, in their early second-century revolts, the Jews were able to temporarily seize control of Libya, Cyprus, much of Egypt, and Roman Mesopotamia. That implies a very large population -- certainly far more than could have plausibly emigrated from Palestine.
    , @Colin Wright
    'Sand pretends that European Jews are entirely converted Europeans but that ignores this Levantine component that truly exists. Levantine DNA is easily distinguished from European DNA.'

    Well, that touches on something else. Proving that Jews have Levantine DNA isn't the same as proving they're from Palestine.

    80% of the population of the Roman Empire was in the East. Establishing that modern Jewry has DNA from the Eastern Mediterranean may demonstrate they are largely descended from the Jews of the Roman Empire -- but that's not the same as proving they're from Palestine.

    Frankly, I find the whole thing obviously silly. For me, the epiphany came when Israel's Minister of the Interior, Yishai, claimed that 'Israel is for the white man' -- by which he meant not for Arabs.

    Well, Yishai was a Tunisian Jew. I went looking through photos of gentile Tunisians -- and sure enough. In short order, I found a photo of Yishai's long-lost twin brother. Netanyahu looks quite similar to various recent Polish gentile politicians. That Yemeni Jewish soldier who was filmed murdering a wounded suspect as he lay helpless at his feet looks just like...you guessed it.

    A gentile Yemeni. As a rule, Jews don't look like Jews from other regions so much as they look like the gentiles of the various lands they come from.

    This isn't very hard to accept if you understand ordinary human behavior. It's only hard to accept if you cling to the obviously silly notion that today's Jews are descended from the inhabitants of ancient Palestine.

    They're not.
  110. @Jus' Sayin'...

    "When Jews marry their cousins, the smart get smarter."
     
    And more prone to a wide variety of horrible and/or loathsome physical and mental defects and diseases.

    IQ is not the sine qua non of Darwinian fitness. It has helped Ashkenaz Jews to thrive in accomodating host populations but the negative traits that inbreeding has associated with intelligence in Ashkenaz Jewish populations -the only Jewish populations demomstrating exceptionally high average IQs - may decrease Darwinian fitness in other settings.

    BTW, Jews traditionally have also encouraged uncle-niece marriages, something which most hillbillies I've known would look upon askance.

    but the negative traits that inbreeding has associated with intelligence in Ashkenaz Jewish populations -the only Jewish populations demomstrating exceptionally high average IQs – may decrease Darwinian fitness in other settings.

    That’s true – we know how unsuited Jews are for the modern world. They are like Amazonian Indians or aborigines – completely unable to cope with modernity. Once taken from their shteltls and confronted with novel situations or societies, they just fell to pieces.

    • Replies: @Jus' Sayin'...
    Notice that I wrote. "It [high IQ] has helped Ashkenaz Jews to thrive in accomodating host populations but the negative traits that inbreeding has associated with intelligence in Ashkenaz Jewish populations ... may decrease Darwinian fitness in other settings."

    I believe that you make my point for me. In their current primary host population -- contemporary liberal, western,, "capitalist", "democracies" -- Ashkenaz Jews have done extraordinarily well. They have often exploited their success to subvert these populations, even to the point that they provide essential support for the survival of Ashkenaz Jews in Israel, e.g. billions of dollars in foreign aid and endless US military adventures to destabilize potential enemies in North Africa, the Levant, the Middle East, and southwest Asia. They have subverted these host populations with policies that, while favoring Jewish interests subvert those of the host population as a whole, e.g., globalism and open borders, successful limitations on free speech, and insane central bank policies. Jews have done this by acting as a group, not a monolithic group, as portrayed for example in "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion", but nonetheless a clearly discernible group, acting in concert for almost two centuries.

    But the very success of this subversion is is likely to alter the host populations in dysfunctional ways. Clearly Jewish leaders expect to remain in control after Western countries become illiberal, welfare states with a congeries of racial and ethnic groups competing for political dominance and dominated by Jewish control of finance, the information industries, and government bureaucracies. But history suggests that what will eventually arise from this is a cross-ethnic populist movement united by real anti-Semitism, e.g., that found in many if not most of the West's growing non-European populations. Ultimately a place where Jews will not thrive. This same process has played out many times before.

    What I find surprising is that Ashkenaz Jews, considered as a group, have not yet learned to moderate their exploitation of an accommodating host population. What is playing out now has played out before on multiple occasions, e.g. pre-Inquisition Spain, the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, multiple times in countries across medieval Europe, and in the Russian Pale during the 19th century.

    Consider the following parable:

    A large redneck family – call them the McCoys - move into a southern hamlet. The patriarch of the clan visits the sheriff and tells him that his family have spent as far back as they can remember wandering from town to town. Everywhere they go, despite their blameless behavior – and indeed the superiority they are convinced they have to everyone among whom they’ve lived – they are mercilessly persecuted for no discernible reason and sooner or later forced to move on. He adds that he hopes the sheriff and townspeople will change this pattern and treat the McCoys better.

    The sheriff takes pity on the family and welcomes them to their new home. Immediately trouble breaks out. The newcomers impose endlessly on their neighbors. When they get the upper hand they mistreat their neighbors mercilessly. Otherwise they complain bitterly that they are being mistreated. They demand that the sheriff do something to prevent this mistreatment. The townsfolk, meanwhile, complain about the constant misbehavior of the newcomers. Eventually the sheriff discovers that the McCoys have secretly set up a political campaign to remove him from office, replace him with someone more to their liking, and change town ordinances so that the McCoy behaviors, which the townspeople find annoying, threatening, harmful, or repugnant get special legal protection and the townspeople’s reactions to these McCoy behaviors are made illegal.

    Should one condemn the sheriff’s and townspeople’s subsequent attempts to rein in the behavior of the McCoys or else drive them from the town as an evil that one might call “anti-McCoyism” or does it appear that some more complicated process is going on here?
    , @Desiderius
    Pretty much. Y'all need to get your shit together before you bring the rest of us down around you.

    Not really kidding. Little humility might be a good start. Back when y'all sucked less you knew that.
    , @Alden
    Good one
  111. @Dmitry
    I can often identify Jews (for example, Jewish celebrities), without prior knowledge.

    However, pure Jewish races, themselves are 3-4 different races even in Russia (in Israel, there are dozens of other Jewish races, most are dark brown, and some even black).


    -

    For example, in Russia - Bukharan Jews are brown (girl on left) and look the same as Muslim nationalities of their home region. While Ashkenazi Jews (on right this is Jewish oligarch Roman Abramovich) can be appear from white to brown.

    https://www.instagram.com/p/p8xW4iwikq

    ^ It's two different Jewish races.


    While Armenian Jews, look the same as Armenian Christian population to my eyes: On right is Armenian Christian girl and on left is an Armenian Jewess. Both Armenian Christians and Armenian Jews - it looks externally like the same race.

    https://www.instagram.com/p/BJOWjBAgs3J/

    -

    While secular modern Ashkenazi Jews in Russian, intermarried and adopt to their host area. If you look at the secular Jewish youth camps in Siberia nowadays - they mostly don't look like different race anymore (much of the Ashkenazi population in Russia, has been partially swallowed)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rr5r2JWqOpY

    While Ashkenazi Jews (on right this is Jewish oligarch Roman Abramovich) can be appear from white to brown.

    While Ashkenazi Jews can have very dark or black hair, they rarely have an olive or brown complexion. Of course they can get a suntan but their natural skin color is rarely dark. As Lot says, a typical “tell” for Ashkenazi Jews is pale skin combined with dark hair. If an Italian or Greek has dark hair then his skin usually matches but in Ashkenazi Jews it doesn’t.

    • Replies: @Jonathan Mason

    As Lot says, a typical “tell” for Ashkenazi Jews is pale skin combined with dark hair.
     
    Same as the Welsh and Irish, then.

    https://www.menshairstylestoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/Gareth-Bale-Haircut-Taper-Fade-with-Angular-Comb-Over.jpg

    https://celebnetworths.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/Pierce-Brosnan.jpg
    , @Dmitry
    There are quite a few "pure Ashkenazi Jews" with blonde hair. Hair colour is not reliable. It's more something in the face, where you see they are Jews.

    Go to a richest area of Israel and look at the "Ashkenazi elite" and natural blondes are not infrequent at all in those areas.

    Also go to Bnei Brak, and you can see at least 1 in 10 of dosim there are blonde (while maybe another 3 in 10 of them have dark brown skin).

    But blonde "pure Jews" look very different generally to Russian people, and their face is usually something a bit different.

    If you know Israeli faces, then you can recognize it.

    This girl - usually only Jewish/Israeli people have that smile at 0:16

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APbwnuhUA_U

    Or this celebrity beatboxer

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hKQM9H6Y5A

  112. @BB753
    What about Sephardim? Are they half-Iberian, half-Hebrew? Phenotypically, many of them overlap with Ashkenazis.

    Sephardic Jews from the northern parts of the former Ottoman Empire have a small amount of Spanish DNA but they are mostly a mix of Greek + Anatolian + Israelite + North African, so similar to Ashkenazic Jews.

    Sephardim and Ashkenazim share 87.2% of the same ancestors from about 1,500-2,000 years ago using nMonte models with a genetic distance of 0.8842. The components that are unique to Ashkenazim that Sephardim don’t have include German, Slavic, and Han Chinese. Some German Jews have close to 0% Slavic and 0% Chinese DNA so they come out even closer to Sephardim than the average Ashkenazi from further east.

    Sephardic Jews from Bulgaria are noticeably mixed with Ashkenazic settlers who had moved south several centuries ago. Sephardic Jews from Turkey and Greece partially descend from pre-existing Jewish communities that existed in the area before Sephardim arrived. Moroccan Jews have varying degrees of Berber DNA – more Sephardic in the north and increasing Berber going south. Syrian Jews from Aleppo with their substantial Musta’arabi ancestry are far from pure Sephardim even though some of them call themselves Sephardim and can trace some lineages to Spain.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Is your view that Ashkenazis are less Levantine Hebrew-Italian mixes than Levantine Hebrew-Greek mixes?
    , @BB753
    What about the Sephardim who settled in the Netherlands after 1492? Some made their way to England after Cromwell.
  113. Anonymous[367] • Disclaimer says:
    @Travis
    so true. Ashkenazi Jews are all closer genetically to each other than most Americans are to their fourth cousins. On average a white American will shares about .20% of their DNA with a fourth cousin, while Ashkenazi Jews will share 1.5% of their DNA with a fourth Cousin

    My best friend is half Ashkenazi, his mother was jewish.. When he did 23andme it listed his 1,500 closest relatives....99% were Jewish despite having more known Paternal relatives, his paternal family had settled in America prior to the 1800s. Yet while he shared .8% of his DNA with a paternal third cousin , he shared .8% of his DNA with hundreds of Ashkenazi Jews who were distant cousins, on his maternal side. His actual third cousins on his Ashkenazi side shared 7% of their DNA with him , more typical of a first cousin. Any Jew who tested at 23anmde will realize how inbred they are, as second and third cousins will appear as first cousins and first cousins will be predicted Aunts and Uncles....

    Usually Americans with deep roots in America will find lots of potential fourth cousins at 23andme. Although 25% of your fourth cousins will share zero DNA with you. It is interesting to see how many of my matches , who are fourth cousins , do not share any DNA with my sister. And vice verse, about 25% of her matches share zero DNA with me. Thus a typical American will not even share any DNA with a confirmed fifth cousin, while Ashkenazi Jews will share a minimum of .2% with all Ashkenazi Jews.

    “Ashkenazi Jews are all closer genetically to each other than most Americans are to their fourth cousins. On average a white American will shares about .20% of their DNA with a fourth cousin, while Ashkenazi Jews will share 1.5% of their DNA with a fourth Cousin”

    The second sentence does not prove the first sentence.

  114. @Hugh
    It sounds to me like young Oscar is noticing.

    He’s just trying to find the right verbal formulation to avoid another slapping from his granny.

    You don’t want to cross Jewish matriarchy.

  115. @Anonymous

    His book was strongly denounced by almost all prominent researchers in the field as a shoddy incarnation of race science
     
    Was Wade's book shoddy?

    As we waited in line, we joked that this was our punishment for our ancestors marrying their cousins.
     
    It is interesting that Jews are never disparaged by others for being inbred, even though they are probably more closely related genetically to each other than rural Americans are to each other.

    But there are so many other reasons to disparage them already.

  116. @Mr McKenna

    “looks Jewish” is a common phrase, whereas “looks Christian” isn’t one.
     
    The hell you say!

    https://i.ibb.co/2jpWvft/White-American-Family-1950s.png

    The hell you say!

    They look German.

    Jewish actress.

    • Replies: @Kevin Brook
    Bad example. Gwyneth Paltrow is like Dani Shapiro in being only half-Ashkenazic Jewish with the other half being Northwestern European Christian. Paltrow is in fact partly German on her non-Jewish side. She has probably only 1.5% distant German on her Jewish side.
    , @Dave Pinsen
    Paltrow has German ancestry on her Quaker mother’s side.
  117. jon says:
    @prosa123
    I find it puzzling yet slightly amusing that there's all this kerfuffle about how much Jewish ancestry is enough, yet the One Drop Rule is an absolute, unchallenged part of our society.

    the One Drop Rule is an absolute, unchallenged part of our society

    The One Drop Rule was an absolute, unchallenged part of our society. Look at how much sh*t Fauxcohontas and Talcum X take, rightly so in my opinion, for trying to claim non-Whiteness when they are only a few drops of the Other.

  118. @Jack D

    While Ashkenazi Jews (on right this is Jewish oligarch Roman Abramovich) can be appear from white to brown.
     
    While Ashkenazi Jews can have very dark or black hair, they rarely have an olive or brown complexion. Of course they can get a suntan but their natural skin color is rarely dark. As Lot says, a typical "tell" for Ashkenazi Jews is pale skin combined with dark hair. If an Italian or Greek has dark hair then his skin usually matches but in Ashkenazi Jews it doesn't.

    As Lot says, a typical “tell” for Ashkenazi Jews is pale skin combined with dark hair.

    Same as the Welsh and Irish, then.

    • Replies: @Anonymous

    Same as the Welsh and Irish, then.
     
    They could be two of the lost tribes of Israel.
    , @Jack D
    There are Jews with blue eyes but then they don't usually have black hair.
    , @Lot
    The Atlantic-Celtic fringe of Wales/Ireland/Western France/Northern Spain I agree tend to have the same strong skin-to-hair contrast.

    The same people also have the smallest noses in all of Europe, so rarely look Jewish.
  119. Anon[211] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anon7
    If a 100% Ashkenazi Jewish woman marries a gentile, the children are all Jewish. Even though they are only 50% Ashkenazi. And that would be true if one of the daughters married a gentile, the children would be only 25% Ashkenazi, but still Jewish. And so on.

    That's why you can't tell who's Jewish by looking. I went out with a woman who identified as Jewish, and she looked quite Jewish, and by Jewish law was indeed Jewish. Except that she was adopted into a Jewish family, so who knows what her genetic heritage was. Her sisters, on the other hand, looked like blonde shiksas, because their Jewish father had married a gentile, and then had her convert to Judaism.

    If a 100% Ashkenazi Jewish woman marries a gentile, the children are all Jewish. Even though they are only 50% Ashkenazi. And that would be true if one of the daughters married a gentile, the children would be only 25% Ashkenazi, but still Jewish. And so on.

    That’s why you can’t tell who’s Jewish by looking

    Note the genetic requirement. Its merely inclusionary instead of exclusionary.

    That is, Jewish group inclusion requires the presence of certain genetics instead of their exclusion – the difference of no difference.

    The Jewish racial definition is a slightly different racial self definition than that of Whites and yet it is still functional racial definition and identity to the point that Jews have a much higher risk of inbreeding disease than Whites.

    Jews are hating those who racially self-define differently. Yet, racial self definition is still at the core of Jewish identity. As I stated, its the difference of no difference. Jewish targeting of White racial self definition is not rooted in political principle but instead rooted in hate for the group that they have carved out their propaganda to specifically target.

    The Orthodox political core of Judaism rarely intermarries. Unrelated individuals in that group most often look genetically closer than do I and my siblings. It follows that I can tell who is Jewish 95% of the time. Your naXalt example is bullshit, Jews like to appeal to it, but it doesn’t apply to 95% or more of the Jewish group. So GTFO of here with your utter nonsense. My Jewdar is well honed. 5% of the time I cannot tell, and yet when that individual ages most of the time their Jewish features will start to reveal once the babyfat falls off of their face.

    • Replies: @Anonymous

    Jewish targeting of White racial self definition is not rooted in political principle but instead rooted in hate for the group that they have carved out their propaganda to specifically target.
     
    Why do Jews target the other group?
  120. @Colin Wright
    'The article in The Guardian is problematic due to its leftist ideological biases and for taking Professor Shlomo Sand seriously. According to his April 14, 2019 interview with Mediapart.fr, Sand is currently writing a French novel that argues against the notion of genetic Jewishness. He is still in denial of the significant indigenous roots of Western Jews in Israel.'

    I notice that you don't rebut Sand's actual arguments.

    1. The probable Jewish population of Roman Palestine simply couldn't have expanded enough quickly enough to account for the Jewish population of the Roman Empire. 100,000 cannot equal 2,000,000 -- not in six generations or so. More generous figures assume that all the inhabitants of Palestine were Jews, and they all fled Palestine to settle elsewhere -- and both parts of that are demonstrable nonsense.

    2. In the Jewish cemeteries of the Roman Empire, half the names of each successive generation indicate that the deceased was a convert. Do the math on what percentage of a population will remain genetically 'Jewish' if half of each generation are converts.

    I forgot to mention the most damning evidence against Sand. He has been a proponent of the notion that Ashkenazic Jews substantially descend from the Khazars who lived in the far east of Europe and were a mix of Turkic and Caucasian peoples. Tatiana Tatarinova of the University of La Verne and her team of scientists recently compared Ashkenazic Jews’ autosomal DNA to medieval Khazar bones but did not find any similarity between the two groups. She presented their findings on May 30, 2019 at the “Centenary of Human Population Genetics” conference in Moscow. This accords with the findings of Doron Behar’s team back in 2013 which used modern Turkic peoples as proxies for Khazars. It’s far past time for Sand to give it up, but he won’t.

    Disclaimer: 20 years ago my views were closer to Sand’s and Goldstein’s, and both of them cited earlier editions of my book in their books.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
    'I forgot to mention the most damning evidence against Sand. He has been a proponent of the notion that Ashkenazic Jews substantially descend from the Khazars...'

    I forget what exactly Sand claims vis-a-vis the Khazars, and I'm not up on what the latest back-and-forth is concerning the Khazars. As far as I know, all that's known for certain is that the upper classes of Khazar society converted to Judaism.

    I'd make a few points. Demonstrating that Ashkenazim don't share any significant DNA with some Khazars doesn't demonstrate much. I imagine we could find some Danes I'm not related to -- but I assure you. I have Danish ancestry.

    However, be that as it may. Also, Sand can claim whatever he chooses; nothing I have said is dependent on Sand's status as a historical authority, but only on other evidence he has cited. Finally, and most importantly, demonstrating that the Jews didn't come from Khazaria doesn't prove that they did come from Palestine. I doubt if I have any Khazar genes either. It doesn't follow that therefore I came from Palestine.
  121. @Thulean Friend
    You shouldn't blindly adopt jewish racial slurs for blonde women. And if you are, use terms like kikes at the very least to even the balance for those who use it.

    I knew blonde Jewish girls and girlfriends back in 1968. So drop dead fred.

  122. @TWS
    So Mom was screwing around?

    So Mom was screwing around?

    I don’t know what the family’s rabbi would say– he apparently winked at it– but according to Christian churches, and the Illinois legislature in the 1950s (almost), use of third-party sperm for impregnation is adultery.

    And adulteration, in a way.

  123. @Jonathan Mason

    The hell you say!
     
    They look German.

    http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-_qiupxjpFhQ/USAcKq2XzQI/AAAAAAAAyWg/8wcEVL0Z3fk/s1600/is-gwyneth-paltrow-jewish.jpg

    Jewish actress.

    Bad example. Gwyneth Paltrow is like Dani Shapiro in being only half-Ashkenazic Jewish with the other half being Northwestern European Christian. Paltrow is in fact partly German on her non-Jewish side. She has probably only 1.5% distant German on her Jewish side.

  124. Anonymous[377] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jonathan Mason

    As Lot says, a typical “tell” for Ashkenazi Jews is pale skin combined with dark hair.
     
    Same as the Welsh and Irish, then.

    https://www.menshairstylestoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/Gareth-Bale-Haircut-Taper-Fade-with-Angular-Comb-Over.jpg

    https://celebnetworths.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/Pierce-Brosnan.jpg

    Same as the Welsh and Irish, then.

    They could be two of the lost tribes of Israel.

  125. @El Dato
    Looking Christian means that you have to be ready to be covergirl of "Les Misérables"?

    Looking Christian means that you have to be ready to be covergirl of “Les Misérables”?

    She looks damned good for someone born in 1962.

  126. @ScarletNumber
    Your link goes the the 10th footnote of the article, rather than the article per se. However, this footnote is illuminating because it references an article from the Oriental Studies department of the University of Pennsylvania from 1986. Obviously such a name wouldn't fly today, but 1986 isn't ancient history, either.

    Here’s the link to Moser’s essay:

    http://www.pinyin.info/readings/texts/moser.html

  127. @Jonathan Mason

    As Lot says, a typical “tell” for Ashkenazi Jews is pale skin combined with dark hair.
     
    Same as the Welsh and Irish, then.

    https://www.menshairstylestoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/Gareth-Bale-Haircut-Taper-Fade-with-Angular-Comb-Over.jpg

    https://celebnetworths.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/Pierce-Brosnan.jpg

    There are Jews with blue eyes but then they don’t usually have black hair.

    • Replies: @Anonymous55uu
    The late actor Gene Wilder was very blue eyed, quite blond but still somewhat “jewish looking”. Not sure what his own views were but he was terrific in Mel Brooks’ odd take on identity “Young Frankenstein”, in which the main character evolves from the assimilated secular “Fronk-un-steen” to the ethnically “aware” “Frankenstein” as he creates life in the monster (played by Peter Boyle).
  128. @Lot
    “BTW, Jews traditionally have also encouraged uncle-niece marriages, something which most hillbillies I’ve known would look upon askance.”

    Source? I have never heard of this. Perhaps plausible among Yemeni Jews who more than other groups have gone native.

    “Hillbillies” do have a slightly higher rate of inbreeding than other white Americans, but still very low by European standards, which in turn are low by world standards.

    “BTW, Jews traditionally have also encouraged uncle-niece marriages, something which most hillbillies I’ve known would look upon askance.”

    Source? I have never heard of this. Perhaps plausible among Yemeni Jews who more than other groups have gone native.

    This was accepted in the Sephardic culture that came to America centuries before the Ashkenazi. So much so that a provision was written in Rhode Island law to accommodate it. That law is on the books to this day.

    In Rhode Island, Jews Can Marry Their Relatives!

    • Replies: @Lot
    Yikes. King Alfonso V married his full sister’s 13-year-old daughter circa 1470 with a papal dispensation.
  129. Anon[211] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jus' Sayin'...
    Many years ago, when I asked a Jewish friend what the word "mamzer" meant, he replied "bastard". Later I learned that "bastard" captures neither the denotation nor connotation of "mamzer" as it is used in the Torah, Mishna, and Talmud. In those sources a mamzer is essentially the offspring of any illegitimate union between a Jew and a non-Jew or two Jews. Mamzers and their descendants are denied full admission to the congregation of Israel for ten generations, i.e., effectively forever. By Halachic law, unless a Jewish woman is legitimately married to a man who is a natural born, non-mamzer Jew or a non-Jew whose conversion to Judaism is rabbinicaly recognized her offspring will be mamzerim. Even in the latter case, I believe that many rabbis would argue that the offspring are mamzerim. So mtDNA may not be sufficient criteria for establishing whether a person is truly and fully a Jew. I'm curious how Israel's current Sanhedrin settles these issues but not curious enough to do the research.

    Here is a Brief on the Jewish Mishnaic Scale of Lineages.

    Legitimate converts are not to be trusted for 22 generations (as you remark, essentially never). Doctrinally, Judaism is a genetic group and no more than that:

    Maimonides on Judaism & the Jewish People (1991)
    Menachem Marc Kellner

    https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=6HlxxKP1AtAC&lpg=PA5&ots=fik19PoUQN&dq=jewish%20converts%20inferior&pg=PA5#v=onepage&q=%22Halevi%20meets%20the%22&f=false

    How do Jewish converts feel knowing “native” Jews consider them inferior & a hindrance to the messiahs arrival?

    “Halevi (12th century Jewish poet & “philosopher”) meets the problem of conversion by arguing that converts are indeed not the equals of native Jews and that only after many generations, so it would seem, can their descendants be fully amalgamated into the Jewish people. To adopt a brilliant and amusing metaphor of Daniel J. Lasker’s, just as IBM PC clones may run the same software as original IBM hardware, but are still not the real thing; so, too, converts may believe what native Jews believe, and act as they do (software), they are still not the same as native Jews (hardware).”

    Jewish Identity in Early Rabbinic Writings
    By Sacha Stern
    p. 94

    http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ekhqsS8GKo8C&lpg=PA92&dq=jewish%20converts%20inferior&pg=PA94#v=onepage&q=%22the%20Midrash%20remarks:%20%22do%20not%20trust%20the%20convert,%20even%20after%20the%2022nd%20generation22%20(according%20to%20another%20source,%20for%207%20generations%20a%20convert%20cannot%20be%20trusted%20not%20to%20have%20returned%20to%20his%20old%20ways).&f=false

    “the Midrash remarks: “do not trust the convert, even after the 22nd generation” (according to another source, for 7 generations a convert cannot be trusted not to
    have returned to his old ways).

    Jewish Identity in Early Rabbinic Writings
    By Sacha Stern
    p. 94

    http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ekhqsS8GKo8C&lpg=PA92&dq=jewish%20converts%20inferior&pg=PA94#v=onepage&q=%22converts%20are%20also%20a%20hindrance%20to%20the%20coming%20of%20the%20Messiah%22&f=false

    “converts are also a hindrance to the coming of the Messiah”

    Jewish Identity in Early Rabbinic Writings
    By Sacha Stern
    p. 94

    https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ekhqsS8GKo8C&lpg=PA92&dq=jewish%20converts%20inferior&pg=PA94#v=onepage&q=%22his%20tendency%20to%20lapse%20is%20considered%20a%20liability%20to%20Israel%2C%20which%20explains%20Rabbi%20Helbo’s%20well-known%20saying%3A%20%22converts%20are%20as%20difficult%20to%20Israel%20as%20leprosy%22&f=false

    “… his tendency to lapse is considered a liability to Israel, which explains Rabbi Helbo’s well-known saying: “converts are as difficult to Israel as leprosy”. The Babylonian Talmud treats the converts with suspicion: it wonders whether their motives were indeed sincere, and why they waited so long to convert; it also suspects them of acting out of fear rather than out of love. If a convert is suspected of (transgressing) a single commandment, he must be suspected of (transgressing) the whole Torah.”

    Jewish Identity in Early Rabbinic Writings
    By Sacha Stern
    p. 92

    https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ekhqsS8GKo8C&lpg=PA92&dq=jewish%20converts%20inferior&pg=PA92#v=onepage&q=%22In%20certain%20contexts%20the%20convert%20is%20distinguished%20from%20the%20Jewish-born%20as%20having%20inferior%20status.%22&f=false

    Jews listed in order of importance (most to least)

    In certain contexts the convert is distinguished from the Jewish-born as having inferior status. In the liturgy, he cannot refer to the Patriarchs as “our forefathers”. More importantly, his lineage is inferior to that of most Jewish-born, as according to the mishnaic scale of lineages (yohasin):

    1. Priest (cohen)
    2. Levite
    3. Israel (ordinary Jews)
    4. Impaired priest (descendent of a cohen who’d broken the marriage rules)
    5. Convert
    6. Freedman (former slave)
    5. Bastard
    6. Natin (Gibeonite) (Jews forbidden to marry ordinary Jews)
    7. Silent (of unknown fatherhood)
    8. Foundling (abandoned as a child)”

    • Replies: @Anon
    The Nuremberg laws were more lenient.
    , @Anon7
    "“the Midrash remarks: “do not trust the convert, even after the 22nd generation” (according to another source, for 7 generations a convert cannot be trusted not to
    have returned to his old ways)."

    Sounds like they were worried about what John Derbyshire calls "absimilation".

  130. @Jack D

    but the negative traits that inbreeding has associated with intelligence in Ashkenaz Jewish populations -the only Jewish populations demomstrating exceptionally high average IQs – may decrease Darwinian fitness in other settings.
     
    That's true - we know how unsuited Jews are for the modern world. They are like Amazonian Indians or aborigines - completely unable to cope with modernity. Once taken from their shteltls and confronted with novel situations or societies, they just fell to pieces.

    Notice that I wrote. “It [high IQ] has helped Ashkenaz Jews to thrive in accomodating host populations but the negative traits that inbreeding has associated with intelligence in Ashkenaz Jewish populations … may decrease Darwinian fitness in other settings.”

    I believe that you make my point for me. In their current primary host population — contemporary liberal, western,, “capitalist”, “democracies” — Ashkenaz Jews have done extraordinarily well. They have often exploited their success to subvert these populations, even to the point that they provide essential support for the survival of Ashkenaz Jews in Israel, e.g. billions of dollars in foreign aid and endless US military adventures to destabilize potential enemies in North Africa, the Levant, the Middle East, and southwest Asia. They have subverted these host populations with policies that, while favoring Jewish interests subvert those of the host population as a whole, e.g., globalism and open borders, successful limitations on free speech, and insane central bank policies. Jews have done this by acting as a group, not a monolithic group, as portrayed for example in “The Protocols of the Elders of Zion”, but nonetheless a clearly discernible group, acting in concert for almost two centuries.

    But the very success of this subversion is is likely to alter the host populations in dysfunctional ways. Clearly Jewish leaders expect to remain in control after Western countries become illiberal, welfare states with a congeries of racial and ethnic groups competing for political dominance and dominated by Jewish control of finance, the information industries, and government bureaucracies. But history suggests that what will eventually arise from this is a cross-ethnic populist movement united by real anti-Semitism, e.g., that found in many if not most of the West’s growing non-European populations. Ultimately a place where Jews will not thrive. This same process has played out many times before.

    What I find surprising is that Ashkenaz Jews, considered as a group, have not yet learned to moderate their exploitation of an accommodating host population. What is playing out now has played out before on multiple occasions, e.g. pre-Inquisition Spain, the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, multiple times in countries across medieval Europe, and in the Russian Pale during the 19th century.

    Consider the following parable:

    A large redneck family – call them the McCoys – move into a southern hamlet. The patriarch of the clan visits the sheriff and tells him that his family have spent as far back as they can remember wandering from town to town. Everywhere they go, despite their blameless behavior – and indeed the superiority they are convinced they have to everyone among whom they’ve lived – they are mercilessly persecuted for no discernible reason and sooner or later forced to move on. He adds that he hopes the sheriff and townspeople will change this pattern and treat the McCoys better.

    The sheriff takes pity on the family and welcomes them to their new home. Immediately trouble breaks out. The newcomers impose endlessly on their neighbors. When they get the upper hand they mistreat their neighbors mercilessly. Otherwise they complain bitterly that they are being mistreated. They demand that the sheriff do something to prevent this mistreatment. The townsfolk, meanwhile, complain about the constant misbehavior of the newcomers. Eventually the sheriff discovers that the McCoys have secretly set up a political campaign to remove him from office, replace him with someone more to their liking, and change town ordinances so that the McCoy behaviors, which the townspeople find annoying, threatening, harmful, or repugnant get special legal protection and the townspeople’s reactions to these McCoy behaviors are made illegal.

    Should one condemn the sheriff’s and townspeople’s subsequent attempts to rein in the behavior of the McCoys or else drive them from the town as an evil that one might call “anti-McCoyism” or does it appear that some more complicated process is going on here?

    • Replies: @notanon

    What I find surprising is that Ashkenaz Jews, considered as a group, have not yet learned to moderate their exploitation of an accommodating host population.
     
    they have to lie to themselves about their history to maintain cohesion and that prevents them from breaking the cycle.
    , @William Badwhite

    Consider the following parable:
     
    Excellent parable, but I think asking the Jack's of the world for self-awareness is futile.

    It's always gonna be "we're so great and you're so [insert crude insult]" followed by "wait, why are we
    being persecuted for no reason at all?".

    Fast forward to when they're living among a different group of their inferiors "you didn't save us fast enough, so we demand you build this memorial to our persecution, which happened for no reason at all".
  131. @Hail

    After arriving in Eastern Europe around a millennia ago
     
    @ Guardian editor. Asleep at the switch?

    Or just incompetent. It’s the Guardian ferchrissake

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
    'Here is a Brief on the Jewish Mishnaic Scale of Lineages.

    Legitimate converts are not to be trusted for 22 generations (as you remark, essentially never)...'

    Speculation is this is one of the reasons Judaism lost out to its Christian offshoot in the war for converts in the Roman Empire.

    At least in theory, you convert to Christianity, and presto, you're a genuine, fully admitted member of the church; in Judaism, you're definitely not the equal of those Jews who can claim longer lineage.

    The other reason, obviously, is circumcision; adult males are going to be reluctant to undergo circumcision. Become a Christian and you don't have to!
  132. @Anonymouse
    I am a great iSteve fan considering him to be perhaps the most prolific interesting commentator in the Internet cloud. The need to keep producing interesting thoughts day after day is a heavy task. No surprise that Steve reprises his historical preoccupations. I have never played a game of golf - aside miniature golf - although my retired brother-in-law plays frequently. Yet Steve's observations about the design and social history of American golf courses are entertaining. I am writing to share my feelings about another of his golden oldie subjects: the Jews. Although I am one, the real-world role of jews historically and in the present has a smaller share of my thoughts than those of Steve. Steve's treatment of the subject seems to me to be objective and scientific, unlike the run of articles on his host website. For which I am grateful, even in such cases as when he says nothing new about them (hard to do considering the enormous attention they have attracted). I am also grateful for the relative absence of jew haters in the comments here when compared to the number of those on his host website. I have always wondered where that comes from. A psychological explanation of that phenomenon among his countrymen is proposed by Sartre in the first half of his Réflexions sur la question juive. To my mind, it rings true to a certain extent but is not comprehensive.

    That “relative absence” presumably comes from Sailer’s “whim”

  133. @Dmitry
    Jews in Russia already include several different races - Ashkenazi, Mountain Jews (from Caucuses regions), Bukhari (from Central Asia), Georgian Jews.

    But in Israel, Jews are about fifty different races (and Jews are only 74% of the citizenship), so the discussion becomes quite idiot.

    A secular Jewish school in Israel, will look the as multiracial as an American highschool - for my eyes. Moreover, as a small country, the different races all living very close together.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7_O4kPux8E

    What an absurd claim. A few look kinda Arab but they’re all Caucasians if not white. Not a single black person.

    • Replies: @vinteuil

    What an absurd claim. A few look kinda Arab but they’re all Caucasians if not white. Not a single black person.
     
    Hey, give Dmitry a break - he comes at this from a Russian perspective. In the US, diversity mostly just means black and white. But when you walk around Moscow or Saint Petersburg, it's all about shades of grey.
  134. @Lot
    “BTW, Jews traditionally have also encouraged uncle-niece marriages, something which most hillbillies I’ve known would look upon askance.”

    Source? I have never heard of this. Perhaps plausible among Yemeni Jews who more than other groups have gone native.

    “Hillbillies” do have a slightly higher rate of inbreeding than other white Americans, but still very low by European standards, which in turn are low by world standards.

    “The Talmud endorsed marriages between uncles and nieces; although some early Jewish religious communities, such as the Sadducees, believed that such unions were prohibited by the Torah.”

    “James Mayer de Rothschild, founder of the French branch of the Rothschild banking family, and his niece Betty Salomon von Rothschild (c. 1825).”

    source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avunculate_marriage

    I found it interesting, while perusing this to discover that Adolf Hitler was the issue of an avunculate marriage just as I was intrigued to discover that Hitler and Wittgenstein were schoolmates for a time.

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    The woman running the Geneva branch of the Rothschilds, Ariane de Rothschild, isn’t even Jewish, let alone related to her husband by blood.
  135. @Jonathan Mason

    As Lot says, a typical “tell” for Ashkenazi Jews is pale skin combined with dark hair.
     
    Same as the Welsh and Irish, then.

    https://www.menshairstylestoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/Gareth-Bale-Haircut-Taper-Fade-with-Angular-Comb-Over.jpg

    https://celebnetworths.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/Pierce-Brosnan.jpg

    The Atlantic-Celtic fringe of Wales/Ireland/Western France/Northern Spain I agree tend to have the same strong skin-to-hair contrast.

    The same people also have the smallest noses in all of Europe, so rarely look Jewish.

  136. @Reg Cæsar


    “BTW, Jews traditionally have also encouraged uncle-niece marriages, something which most hillbillies I’ve known would look upon askance.”
     
    Source? I have never heard of this. Perhaps plausible among Yemeni Jews who more than other groups have gone native.
     
    This was accepted in the Sephardic culture that came to America centuries before the Ashkenazi. So much so that a provision was written in Rhode Island law to accommodate it. That law is on the books to this day.


    In Rhode Island, Jews Can Marry Their Relatives!

    Yikes. King Alfonso V married his full sister’s 13-year-old daughter circa 1470 with a papal dispensation.

    • Replies: @Old Palo Altan
    The European upper classes have done it too, even as late as the early 20th century, and without unfortunate consequences.

    I know of at least two cases within my own family circle: a Prussian baron and general married his niece (whose equally baronial brother was a famous general in World War II), who was no less than 32 years younger than himself. But they had no children.

    In the other case a Dutch industrialist married his sister's daughter, whose father was an even more important mover-and-shaker than his brother-in-law, and they had two children, one of whom hugely overshadowed both his grandfathers and is to this day revered in Holland and England as the real founder of the industry which made his name and fortune. In his case a double dose of talent and drive paid off handsomely.

    But of course this is not a trick which bears repetition. In another branch there were successive first cousin marriages over three generations: we'll say that the resultant children were odd, and leave it at that.

  137. @Mr McKenna

    “looks Jewish” is a common phrase, whereas “looks Christian” isn’t one.
     
    The hell you say!

    https://i.ibb.co/2jpWvft/White-American-Family-1950s.png

    Well, there’s your problem right there–two kids.

    There ought to be two or three more kids on that fence rail and the mom bulging with a bun in the oven.

  138. @Jack D

    While Ashkenazi Jews (on right this is Jewish oligarch Roman Abramovich) can be appear from white to brown.
     
    While Ashkenazi Jews can have very dark or black hair, they rarely have an olive or brown complexion. Of course they can get a suntan but their natural skin color is rarely dark. As Lot says, a typical "tell" for Ashkenazi Jews is pale skin combined with dark hair. If an Italian or Greek has dark hair then his skin usually matches but in Ashkenazi Jews it doesn't.

    There are quite a few “pure Ashkenazi Jews” with blonde hair. Hair colour is not reliable. It’s more something in the face, where you see they are Jews.

    Go to a richest area of Israel and look at the “Ashkenazi elite” and natural blondes are not infrequent at all in those areas.

    Also go to Bnei Brak, and you can see at least 1 in 10 of dosim there are blonde (while maybe another 3 in 10 of them have dark brown skin).

    But blonde “pure Jews” look very different generally to Russian people, and their face is usually something a bit different.

    If you know Israeli faces, then you can recognize it.

    This girl – usually only Jewish/Israeli people have that smile at 0:16

    Or this celebrity beatboxer

    • Replies: @Jack D
    If rich Jewish women were cut off from the supply of peroxide you'd see a lot fewer blondes.
  139. @dearieme
    Probably more precise to say "half Palestinian" or "half Levantine" or even "half Canaanite".

    I think “Old Levantine” fits best

    • Replies: @Anonymous

    I think “Old Levantine” fits best
     
    "Arab" is more accurate because it accounts for roots in Iraq and Egypt and Jordan. "Levantines" do not have that background.
  140. @Jus' Sayin'...
    Many years ago, when I asked a Jewish friend what the word "mamzer" meant, he replied "bastard". Later I learned that "bastard" captures neither the denotation nor connotation of "mamzer" as it is used in the Torah, Mishna, and Talmud. In those sources a mamzer is essentially the offspring of any illegitimate union between a Jew and a non-Jew or two Jews. Mamzers and their descendants are denied full admission to the congregation of Israel for ten generations, i.e., effectively forever. By Halachic law, unless a Jewish woman is legitimately married to a man who is a natural born, non-mamzer Jew or a non-Jew whose conversion to Judaism is rabbinicaly recognized her offspring will be mamzerim. Even in the latter case, I believe that many rabbis would argue that the offspring are mamzerim. So mtDNA may not be sufficient criteria for establishing whether a person is truly and fully a Jew. I'm curious how Israel's current Sanhedrin settles these issues but not curious enough to do the research.

    Incorrect.

    Anyone born to a Jewish woman is automatically a Jew. The father can be a Swahili devil worshipper.

    In biblical tines descent was patriarchal, but the Rabbis changed it.

    • Replies: @Jus' Sayin'...
    A (very little) bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing. Educate yourself. read the other comments on this issue citing Mishna, Talmud, Halacha, RamBam, historic data, and other sources. If you are a Jew - I assume you are from your handle - you are profoundly ignorant of your religious roots.
  141. @Jack D
    When hillbillies marry their cousins, the dumb get dumber. When Jews marry their cousins, the smart get smarter.

    When the cradle of civilization falls, my useless money will be on the hillbillies surviving far far longer than the jews.

  142. @Cagey Beast
    OT:
    https://twitter.com/MicheSutter/status/1139584136929107968

    “Twice as good to get into that cockpit”

    I will not make any jokes about white Twiiter females being calmed by twice as good #BlackedCockpit.

    Maxine looks like she has had a near death experience though.

  143. @Jus' Sayin'...
    Many years ago, when I asked a Jewish friend what the word "mamzer" meant, he replied "bastard". Later I learned that "bastard" captures neither the denotation nor connotation of "mamzer" as it is used in the Torah, Mishna, and Talmud. In those sources a mamzer is essentially the offspring of any illegitimate union between a Jew and a non-Jew or two Jews. Mamzers and their descendants are denied full admission to the congregation of Israel for ten generations, i.e., effectively forever. By Halachic law, unless a Jewish woman is legitimately married to a man who is a natural born, non-mamzer Jew or a non-Jew whose conversion to Judaism is rabbinicaly recognized her offspring will be mamzerim. Even in the latter case, I believe that many rabbis would argue that the offspring are mamzerim. So mtDNA may not be sufficient criteria for establishing whether a person is truly and fully a Jew. I'm curious how Israel's current Sanhedrin settles these issues but not curious enough to do the research.

    As is often the case with Yiddish, words like “momzer” can also be used admiringly, referring to someone who had to be clever to succeed:

    So this guy was trying to talk a girl into coming back to his apartment late one night.
    “But I’ll hate myself in the morning…”
    “So, sleep in.” Momzer.

  144. Anonymous[377] • Disclaimer says:
    @Lot
    I think “Old Levantine” fits best

    I think “Old Levantine” fits best

    “Arab” is more accurate because it accounts for roots in Iraq and Egypt and Jordan. “Levantines” do not have that background.

  145. But still, there was something disconcerting about our Jewishness being “confirmed” by a biological test. After all, the reason my grandparents had to leave the towns and villages of their ancestors was because of ethno-nationalism emboldened by a racialized conception of Jewishness as something that exists “in the blood”.

    It’s always weird to encounter this tunnel of funhouse mirrors that is the Jewish self-conception:

    — People who married freely with each other in their local area, building and sharing common language, religion, norms and culture (and paving the way for the nation state and eventually representative government) … “ethno-nationalists”! evil people!

    — People who moved into other peoples’ lands but refused to adopt their language, religion, norms, culture and merge with them into a common people, but cultivated an intense outsider hostility to keep themselves endogamously, culturally and religiously distinct–a separate non-conforming tribe … us! the good people!

    ~~~

    Hey, some sort of credit for the sheer assholery involved to “keep tribalism alive!” for 1000+ years. It’s a knock on us Euro-gentiles that Jews were allowed to live amongst us. Despite efforts of several foresighted rulers to kick the Jews out and unifty and strengthen their nations, there was always some asshole ruler willing to sell out his own people’s long term interest for a few shekels.

    Still from a historical perspective there’s no question who the “good people” were. It isn’t the people dragging their petty tribalism down through the ages and foisting it on people building modern nations.

    • Agree: Mr McKenna
    • Replies: @Anon

    Despite efforts of several foresighted rulers to kick the Jews out and unifty and strengthen their nations
     
    Most of the rulers or other peoples just wanted, in the first instance, for Jews to truly join the host group if they wished to continue to have privileges within it. The presence of a competing, sometimes adversarial group inside a body politic is troubling to members of that body politic. Why wouldn't they just join?
    , @vinteuil

    Despite efforts of several foresighted rulers to kick the Jews out and unify and strengthen their nations, there was always some asshole ruler willing to sell out his own people’s long term interest for a few shekels.
     
    AD, when you start suggesting that "kick the Jews out" is wise policy, you lose me.

    Sorry - this is totally anecdotal - but I'm currently in Budapest, Hungary, attending the "Budapest Wagner Days" festival, centered around a couple of performances of the single greatest monument of Western music: Wagner's Der Ring des Nibelungen. It's all the brainchild of Ádám Fischer - and dammit if he isn't the finest Wagner interpreter ever. (And I know them all).
    , @SFG
    "Despite efforts of several foresighted rulers ... and unifty and strengthen their nations, there was always some asshole ruler willing to sell out his own people’s long term interest for money."

    Take out the Jewish part, still holds true.

    , @Colin Wright
    'Still from a historical perspective there’s no question who the “good people” were. It isn’t the people dragging their petty tribalism down through the ages and foisting it on people building modern nations.'

    Well, I suspect that the Jews have long been like the modern Mormons; whenever opportunity offers, enormous cohorts of the population run, don't walk, to get away from that identity, marry a shiksa, and become a gentile. It goes on now. It was going on in Wilhelmine Germany. It apparently went on in medieval Spain.

    This is offset by frenetic breeding among those who remain. See the Mormons again.

    So your 'petty tribalists' tend to be a self-selected group. Your more reasonable Jews are always getting off the the train and conveniently forgetting about their Judaism. Again, we see that now. It's generally the worst elements of the Jewish population that are the frenetic Zionists. The rest just try to ignore it all as much as possible. People like Paul Krugman and Woody Allen usually pay as little attention to Israel as possible -- if pressed, they mumble something anodyne and change the subject. Moreover, it's my impression that Woody Allen at least has spent his sexual career with gentile women, not Jewesses.

  146. anon[226] • Disclaimer says:
    @Paco Wové
    "the idea that genetics can determine who we are socially... genetic differences in human populations manifest in predictable social differences..."

    Can anyone offer up an example or two of what they think the author is talking about here?

    The full quote:
    In recent years, a number of high-profile commentators have appropriated these scientific insights to push the idea that genetics can determine who we are socially, none more controversially than the former New York Times science writer Nicholas Wade. In his 2014 book, A Troublesome Inheritance: Genes, Race and Human History, Wade argues that genetic differences in human populations manifest in predictable social differences between those groups. However, almost all experts agree that the only difference between stagnant, poor, corrupt, brutal, superstitious societies and societies which are free, peaceful, dynamic, prosperous and humane is that the latter just happened to have the good fortune to be situated on Magic Dirt.

  147. @Jonathan Mason

    The hell you say!
     
    They look German.

    http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-_qiupxjpFhQ/USAcKq2XzQI/AAAAAAAAyWg/8wcEVL0Z3fk/s1600/is-gwyneth-paltrow-jewish.jpg

    Jewish actress.

    Paltrow has German ancestry on her Quaker mother’s side.

  148. @El Dato
    OT: Black Pigeon got banned for 12h, declares the Age of Politicial YouTube over:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfrWddAgug8

    Black Pigeon loves to declare things over. “Canada is gone”. “Europe is lost”, etc. In this case though, he’s more right than wrong.

  149. @Anon7
    I agree that there is something to the idea that there are people who "look Jewish". An important part of the effect is that Jews do not actively proselytize; HBD rules. In fact, rabbis are required to seriously ask three separate times if the person really wants to convert.

    Historically, Jews converting to Christianity is a bit fraught. Jews call it "geshmat". The root for the word means "annihilation" or "apostasy". According to the incomparable Leo Rosten, there is a Bulgarian proverb that says "When you baptize a Jew, hold him under for five minutes."

    Here's another story:

    On a bitterly cold, snowy, dreadful night in a Polish town, old Salkowitz, feeling that his time had come, called to his wife. "Shurele, please, send someone to the priest and tell him to come right away - I am dying!"
    "The priest? You must have a fever! You mean the rabbi."
    "I mean the priest!" snapped Salkowitz.
    "May God protect us! Are you secretly geshmat?"
    "No, no; but why disturb the rabbi on a night like this?"

    I appreciate many things about the Jews. Their humour is one of those things.

    • Replies: @Anon7
    Get an old copy of Leo Rosten’s The Joys of Yiddish. It’s a dictionary with humorous stories illustrating most words. Don’t get the (Politically Correct) new version done by his children.
  150. @Lot
    Yikes. King Alfonso V married his full sister’s 13-year-old daughter circa 1470 with a papal dispensation.

    The European upper classes have done it too, even as late as the early 20th century, and without unfortunate consequences.

    I know of at least two cases within my own family circle: a Prussian baron and general married his niece (whose equally baronial brother was a famous general in World War II), who was no less than 32 years younger than himself. But they had no children.

    In the other case a Dutch industrialist married his sister’s daughter, whose father was an even more important mover-and-shaker than his brother-in-law, and they had two children, one of whom hugely overshadowed both his grandfathers and is to this day revered in Holland and England as the real founder of the industry which made his name and fortune. In his case a double dose of talent and drive paid off handsomely.

    But of course this is not a trick which bears repetition. In another branch there were successive first cousin marriages over three generations: we’ll say that the resultant children were odd, and leave it at that.

    • Replies: @Lot
    “overshadowed both his grandfathers and is to this day revered in Holland and England as the real founder of the industry which made his name and fortune. ”

    Who? The two giant companies whose HQ and management are split between Holland and England are Shell and Unilever.

    Shell was founded by Iraqi Jewish brothers, whose parents came to England sometime before their 1850s birth. One of them was made Viscount Bearsted and has many descendants who are a mix of mostly Anglican commercial families with a few AJs mixed in, resulting in his great great grandchildren having names like “Maximilian Bertie Thomas Waley-Cohen” an actual English six year old. His impressive cousin, pictured below with Kate Middleton, was the first amateur jockey to win the Cheltenham Gold Cup in 30 years and became a multimillionaire “independently” by starting a dental supply business.

    https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/03/19/article-0-0B3DB84600000578-32_634x519.jpg

    Unilever was the first big European soap and bath sundries company (the UK part) and margarine maker (Dutch part). I don’t see anything about Lever brothers being inbred. The Jurgens biography says one of the founders and his uncle married into the same family, but that is the extent of anything about inbreeding, if you can even count your aunt’s otherwise unrelated family.

    Uncle marriage is twice as bad as first cousin marriage, but if the background population frequency of it is low enough, the effect isn’t too terrible in isolated instances.
    , @Anon
    But of course this is not a trick which bears repetition. In another branch there were successive first cousin marriages over three generations: we’ll say that the resultant children were odd, and leave it at that.
    ———-

    Did they insist on driving Astons instead of Bentleys or some such barbarity?
  151. @Lot
    Re the last video, yes, they look awfully light featured compared to US AJs.

    The lightest Jews are the “Lithuanians” who actually extend into Latvia Belarus and Russia.

    The rate of myopia among those Russian-Jewish was exceptionally high. And since they are running around at camp, they’d probably not wear their glasses if their myopia was slight.

    Since this was a summer camp, the kids have had some sun exposure. Part of Jewdar is looking for a strong contrast between white skin and dark hair. But sun makes hair lighter and skin tanner or ruddier, reducing this contrast.

    Here’s another photo of Oscar. In Steve’s pic his curly hair and pale skin make him look very Jewish. With short hair and tanner skin he only looks vaguely so. (Just a guess, the pic below he’s younger and still living in sunny Australia, and in Steve’s he’s in cloudy England).

    https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/image/8942166-3x4-340x453.jpg

    Mountain Jews, for example, are still a very dark brown race. While it’s Ashkenazi Jews in Russia, became mainly white.

    If you look at different kinds of Jews next to each other today – in cities with different kinds of Jews, it’s become at least 3 different races sharing the same religion.

    • Replies: @Lot
    The Mountain/Armenian Jews are descendants of Persian Jews and local populations where they settled.

    I never met one, though an AJ from NY area told me they aren’t smart and don’t have a good reputation around NYC.
  152. Anon[377] • Disclaimer says:
    @AnotherDad

    But still, there was something disconcerting about our Jewishness being “confirmed” by a biological test. After all, the reason my grandparents had to leave the towns and villages of their ancestors was because of ethno-nationalism emboldened by a racialized conception of Jewishness as something that exists “in the blood”.
     
    It's always weird to encounter this tunnel of funhouse mirrors that is the Jewish self-conception:

    -- People who married freely with each other in their local area, building and sharing common language, religion, norms and culture (and paving the way for the nation state and eventually representative government) … "ethno-nationalists"! evil people!

    -- People who moved into other peoples' lands but refused to adopt their language, religion, norms, culture and merge with them into a common people, but cultivated an intense outsider hostility to keep themselves endogamously, culturally and religiously distinct--a separate non-conforming tribe … us! the good people!

    ~~~

    Hey, some sort of credit for the sheer assholery involved to "keep tribalism alive!" for 1000+ years. It's a knock on us Euro-gentiles that Jews were allowed to live amongst us. Despite efforts of several foresighted rulers to kick the Jews out and unifty and strengthen their nations, there was always some asshole ruler willing to sell out his own people's long term interest for a few shekels.

    Still from a historical perspective there's no question who the "good people" were. It isn't the people dragging their petty tribalism down through the ages and foisting it on people building modern nations.

    Despite efforts of several foresighted rulers to kick the Jews out and unifty and strengthen their nations

    Most of the rulers or other peoples just wanted, in the first instance, for Jews to truly join the host group if they wished to continue to have privileges within it. The presence of a competing, sometimes adversarial group inside a body politic is troubling to members of that body politic. Why wouldn’t they just join?

  153. @Mr McKenna

    “looks Jewish” is a common phrase, whereas “looks Christian” isn’t one.
     
    The hell you say!

    https://i.ibb.co/2jpWvft/White-American-Family-1950s.png

    Hmmmm….I’d say that they look Mormon. Mormons ain’t exactly Christian, are they?

    • Replies: @Logan
    Mormons, like JWs and other marginal groups, think of themselves as Christians. But many/most other Christians beg to differ.

    I've been involved in some of the most hilarious discussions online where various folks battle it out over who's "really" Christian.

    Some RCs rule out anybody but RCs, and a good many Protestants return the favor by excluding papists.

    The the Prods fight among themselves about this or that belief that includes or excludes various denominations.

    Carried to its logical conclusion, you wind up with:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3fAcxcxoZ8
  154. @jon

    As we waited in line, we joked that this was our punishment for our ancestors marrying their cousins.
     
    So who's more inbred, a Jew or a Muslim? And why did inbreeding work out so well for the Jews and so poorly for the Muslims?

    >>So who’s more inbred, a Jew or a Muslim? And why did inbreeding work out so well for the Jews and so poorly for the Muslims?

    Good point, and the HBD people don’t/can’t explain this. Apparently, the entire Jewish Ashkanazi Jewish population is descended from a core group of approximately 2,000 individuals who originated in northern Italy in the 12th century. With such a small founding population, isn’t a great deal of close kin breeding almost guaranteed? Yet, overall, this population doesn’t seem to be adversely affected by this phenomenon (Tay Sachs, notwithstanding). But recently I was perusing stories and looking at photos of Yemeni Jews who have been evacuated from Yemen over the past 30 years (a small community that by necessity had to marry close kin). They don’t look right. Something looks off. I wouldn’t be surprised that they have low mean IQ. Anyway, I don’t know anything about genetics or development biology.

    • Replies: @MEH 0910
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jewish_intelligence#"Natural_History_of_Ashkenazi_Intelligence"

    https://web.mit.edu/fustflum/documents/papers/AshkenaziIQ.jbiosocsci.pdf
    , @Kevin Brook
    "Apparently, the entire Jewish Ashkanazi Jewish population is descended from a core group of approximately 2,000 individuals who originated in northern Italy in the 12th century."

    Those aren't the only ancestors of Ashkenazim, just the most substantial ones. After the migration of the core Italki Jewish group from Italy into what became the Ashkenazic cultural lands, the following people married into Ashkenazic communities:
    * dozens of Sephardic Jews from Spain and Portugal, mostly men but at least 3 women
    * multiple Polish women and 1 Polish/Belarusian/Sorbian man
    * several Dutch, German, and Gothic women and men
    * 3 Chinese women
    * a couple of Mizrahi Jewish men related to Iranian Jews, Iraqi Jews, and Mountain Jews
    * at least 1 Sicilian Jew (the non-Sephardic kind)

    Ashkenazim are not, in fact, "inbred", according to the way geneticists define inbreeding.
    See Razib Khan's classic commentary http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/07/ashkenazi-jews-are-not-inbred/
    , @SFG
    Some wound up as bankers and merchants and so on. A lot probably converted to Christianity and disappeared from the community, surfacing only in 23andme results. So perhaps only the most able were able to remain in the community? That or selecting particularly for intelligence outweighs all the Tay-Sachs-ish genetic diseases you get along the way? I'm not sure. It is odd.
    , @Colin Wright
    'Apparently, the entire Jewish Ashkanazi Jewish population is descended from a core group of approximately 2,000 individuals who originated in northern Italy in the 12th century.'

    One wonders then, who Frankish bishops in the eighth century were complaining about when they objected to Jewish landlords converting their dependent peasantry. There's also the minor detail of the massive pogroms in the Rhine valley at the end of the eleventh century. Who were all those murderous Crusaders killing?

    ...this is the sort of thing that makes me skeptical of genetic 'studies.'. Whether it's flaws in the science itself, bias among the researchers, or just inaccuracy in the popularization of the results, I couldn't say -- but at the end of the day, the purported 'facts' don't line up with the facts we have from other sources.
  155. @Dmitry
    It depends if you talk about religious or national suppression.

    I'm not an expert and was born in the early 1990s, but my impression from what I have read - religiously, Judaism was possibly more strongly suppressed than other religions (e.g. prison for possession of religious texts, prison for circumcision, etc).

    In terms of nationality, Jews were more culturally "hazed" or "bullied" than other nationalities - but this depends also by region. And this "haze" has a function of integrating the Jews, so you could see it as not completely negative (even if you said this to Jews who escaped to America because of it, they will probably go crazy against you).

    For example, in Ukraine, it was always famous for antisemitism, but in multinational Siberia, the reputation is the opposite.

    Ashkenazi Jews lost most their distinctive culture, and they intermarried often with other nationalities. But other races of Jews - Mountain Jews, Georgian Jews, etc- maintained their culture.

    -

    Contrast seems more obvious now, that government in Russia today is pro-religious, and has a special level of philosemitism.

    Jews in Russia today generate antisemitism by becoming too dominant among the rich class (even though the majority of Jews are not rich, if you look at the most expensive golf club in Moscow half of their photos are of Jewish weddings).

    >> even though the majority of Jews are not rich, if you look at the most expensive golf club in Moscow half of their photos are of Jewish weddings).

    Well, Julia Ioffe claims that Jews like her and her family were chased onto airplanes in 80s Russia, one step ahead of the pogroms that were hunting down Jews in every back alley in Russia. So, who are you going to believe, Julia Ioffe or your own eyes? (In the old days, you had not choice but to believe the Julia Ioffes.)

  156. @Flip
    A substantial portion of Ashkenazi Jews have blue eyes and pale skin. How does that square with ancestry from the Middle East and Greece or Italy?

    While ol’ Shlomo was in the arms of Orpheus, his “faithful” Sarah was wilding in orgies in a local Russian pub …..

    • Replies: @Not Raul
    Your answer makes the most sense. Having a tiny bit of German blood won’t give a Middle Easterner blue eyes, especially since many Germans have brown eyes.
  157. Hail says: • Website
    @Cagey Beast
    OT:
    https://twitter.com/MicheSutter/status/1139584136929107968

    Michele Sutter
    @MicheSutter
    Jun 14, 2019

    Seeing black pilots on my flights always calms me because I know they had to be twice as good to get into that cockpit.

    Bizarre reasoning there.

    Thinking about it, I think it’s likely fair to label that a (subtle) anti-White race-libel.

    This is apparently the Tweeter’s bio:

    Michele Sutter, MOVI (Money Out Voters In) co-founder, is a writer, teacher, producer, and activist. She is a former Story Editor at HBO and a former co-chair of The 29th Street Project, a New York City based theater artists’ cooperative. She also produced the 2009 Los Angeles Drama Critics Circle Award winning musical adaptation of Aristophanes’ The Wasps. A former ESL teacher for the Los Angeles Unified School District, she is a graduate of Princeton University and a recipient of a Nicholl Fellowship in screenwriting from The Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences.

    Are we looking at an Every Single Time‘r? Her bizarre comments about Black pilots would make more sense, anyway.

    • Replies: @Alden
    Nichols fellowship and the other screen writing contests for amateurs with no connections are big rip offs.

    Organize a contest. Charge a reasonable fee for every entrance, $100, $200. Advertise all over the internet every college newspaper that has a film school Variety and other reputable trade magazines. Spend $10,000 for advertising. Get $150,000 from the suckers. Announce a winner BIg Deal.

    Make a hundred copies of the script and mail them to a hundred agencies for whatever it costs to send a 2 ounce DVD through the mail.

    Relax, generous living expenses for the next 2 years covered.
    , @William Badwhite
    Blacks pilots don't have to be "twice as good" but generally they're fine. The stuff you have to do to get an airline flying job acts as kind of a filter. If you get on a commercial airliner and see a black guy in the cockpit I wouldn't worry about it. Two women on the other hand...

    Sutter regardless if she (((is))) or isn't, is just another in the endless supply of modern "intellectuals" that have no idea how anything works. Food, electricity, commercial airlines going to-and-fro...it all just magically happens.
  158. @Cagey Beast
    OT:
    https://twitter.com/MicheSutter/status/1139584136929107968

    Maxine Waters
    @RepMaxineWaters
    Jun 14, 2019

    […] My focus is diversity & inclusion […]

    …she says, while posing with three crew members of some plane she was on. Crew members: 3 Blacks, 0 Whites, 0 Other. 3/3 Black. Not diverse.

    Which reminds me: Will Rep. Waters take the IQ test that Trump offered her last year?

  159. @teo toon
    The kicker is that the Ashkenazim are Japhethites, not Semites - read Genesis. If the DNA selection is for Ashkenazim DNA, then they are excluding the actual Judahites along with the Edomites.

    So Bibi is a Japhethite like Berlusconi is? That would explain a lot.

  160. Well, I see two strands here, one which I can understand & the other which I despise.

    Jews are basically a mid-Eastern people who had been wandering around for two millennia (or so) in Europe; who remained mostly inbred; and who are on genetic level close to Druzes, Palestinians & some other groups from that region. They are not Europeans, genetically, of any variety (and there are many varieties). For instance, the don’t belong to Balto-Slavic subgroup. Foreigners.

    In the case of Russian (and other Slavic) immigrants to Israel I have no objections to gene testing because there were many fake Jewish, mostly economic immigrants who are not ancestrally, let alone culturally (religion & similar stuff like local languages) Jewish. They don’t belong to that mid- Eastern ethnic group.

    What I dislike is that individuals who may not have much of a mid East ancestry, but have been raised there & are culturally-nationally Israeli (language, culture, identity, a sense of belonging,..) are being submitted to a humiliating “genetic testing”. There is something loathsome in the whole procedure that inflames visceral disgust.

    On the other hand, I would condone testing & booting various immigrants who are trying to leech Israeli state, but don’t care about its language, culture, identity etc.

    In the case of the US, the practice is clearly racialist. I think that tribal membership of “genetic sort” (of course, without testing) works for Apaches & some other groups. But it is primitivism that harks back to Bronze Age & before & should be discarded by any literate (sub)culture.

    In the case of US Jews, testing is good for one’s health (possible partners & progeny); but, to determine one’s identity & individual’s belonging, it is antiquated &…well, somehow psychologically constricting & depraved.

    • Replies: @Kevin Brook
    Bardon Kaldian claimed: "Jews are basically a mid-Eastern people [...] are on genetic level close to Druzes, Palestinians & some other groups from that region. They are not Europeans, genetically, of any variety (and there are many varieties). For instance, the don’t belong to Balto-Slavic subgroup."

    Your statements are demonstratably untrue. On population plots, Western Jews genetically cluster with peoples of the Mediterranean sea including Sicilians and Greek Cretans - not with Levantine people - due to their European-Middle Eastern mixtures. Prior to the establishment of the Sephardic and Ashkenazic cultures, Western Jews absorbed Greek lineages like I-Y23115 and Italian lineages like R1b-L4 and R1b-Z145.

    Ashkenazic Jews sometimes carry Northern European (yes even Balto-Slavic) maternal haplogroups like H11a2a2, W3a1a1, J1c7a, H26c, H7j, and H5a, and Northern European paternal haplogroups like I-P19, I1-Z140, I2-PF6950, R1b-U152, R1b-U106 (Vandal or Visigothic), and R1a-M458 (West Slavic). K2a2a is also European of some kind.

    Individual Ashkenazic Jews can score up to 12% or 13% Slavic autosomal DNA. That's not insignificant. Some others, however, have nearly none of that.
    , @Dmitry
    The whole racial issue is simply confusing. But culturally, my impression of stereotypes of Jews (and I have almost 4 months total experience of Israel).

    European secular Jews (from historically Austria or somewhere) - are exaggeratedly European people in their behaviour.

    Mizrahi secular Jews (which is from many different brown races) - are exaggeratedly Middle Eastern people.

    American secular Jews - they seem like some of the more exaggerated provincial Americans.

    Arab Israelis - they are ok when they are in the Jewish areas in Israel, but when you enter their areas, it feels a bit hostile culturally and uncivilized (lots of men together in large groups). They are probably similar to the population of Jordan and Egypt (i.e. less developed economically Arab countries).

    Russian Israelis - it's like provincial Russian cities, but in the early 2000s.

    -

    If you want to understand this, you can walk in an evening from Jaffa (Arabic area) to Northern Tel Aviv (bourgeois secular Ashenazi Jews), and then return on the bus to a Russian suburb like Bat Yam.

    I did this walk last year.

    In Jaffa nightlife, you see a lot of large groups of Arab men, shouting to each other, and a little hostile.

    By the time you walk to Northern Tel Aviv, the atmosphere is exaggeratedly like bourgeois central European nightlife, and extremely safe (it feels more civilized than nightlife in countries like UK).

    But when you return on the bus to area with a lot of Russians like Bat Yam - suddenly there are groups of teenagers outside the shops, asking you to buy vodka for them. And homeless drunk people sleeping on the benches.

    So in other words... there are huge contrasts even between small areas of secular cities, depending on the demographic differences.

  161. Anonymous[362] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymouse
    I am a great iSteve fan considering him to be perhaps the most prolific interesting commentator in the Internet cloud. The need to keep producing interesting thoughts day after day is a heavy task. No surprise that Steve reprises his historical preoccupations. I have never played a game of golf - aside miniature golf - although my retired brother-in-law plays frequently. Yet Steve's observations about the design and social history of American golf courses are entertaining. I am writing to share my feelings about another of his golden oldie subjects: the Jews. Although I am one, the real-world role of jews historically and in the present has a smaller share of my thoughts than those of Steve. Steve's treatment of the subject seems to me to be objective and scientific, unlike the run of articles on his host website. For which I am grateful, even in such cases as when he says nothing new about them (hard to do considering the enormous attention they have attracted). I am also grateful for the relative absence of jew haters in the comments here when compared to the number of those on his host website. I have always wondered where that comes from. A psychological explanation of that phenomenon among his countrymen is proposed by Sartre in the first half of his Réflexions sur la question juive. To my mind, it rings true to a certain extent but is not comprehensive.

    ‘I have always wondered where that comes from’

    Jewish behaviour.

    Satre disliked Jews and was willing to suck up to them to protect his reputation and livelyhood after borderline collaboration during WW2. That books is b*llsh*t and you need to stop kidding yourself.

    • Replies: @Anonymouse
    me: I have always wondered where that comes from’

    >Jewish behaviour.

    >Satre disliked Jews and was willing to suck up to them to protect his reputation and livelyhood after borderline collaboration during WW2. That books is b*llsh*t and you need to stop kidding yourself.

    My behavior is exemplary.

    Sartre's great good friend of his last years was Benny Levy. In 1957 Sartre met the Algerian jewess Arlette Elkay and legally adopted her in 1965.
  162. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @Cagey Beast
    OT:
    https://twitter.com/MicheSutter/status/1139584136929107968

    Maybe in 1962. Today, not so much, but black aircrew on most US airlines are at least minimally competent: I don’t worry bout them that much.

    I asked a recently retired United captain about it once. He said that the blacks they had he had no problem flying with but some he wouldn’t associate with off duty.

  163. @Anon7
    If a 100% Ashkenazi Jewish woman marries a gentile, the children are all Jewish. Even though they are only 50% Ashkenazi. And that would be true if one of the daughters married a gentile, the children would be only 25% Ashkenazi, but still Jewish. And so on.

    That's why you can't tell who's Jewish by looking. I went out with a woman who identified as Jewish, and she looked quite Jewish, and by Jewish law was indeed Jewish. Except that she was adopted into a Jewish family, so who knows what her genetic heritage was. Her sisters, on the other hand, looked like blonde shiksas, because their Jewish father had married a gentile, and then had her convert to Judaism.

    That’s why you can’t tell who’s Jewish by looking.

    One can guess successfully for pure (say, >90%) Ashkenazi ancestry at a rate much higher than random chance. Add in the observations of mannerisms and that rate is going to skyrocket.

    I think that one’s ability to do so correlates with living in proximity to Jews – being from East Coast ethnic neighborhoods dealing with typical Jews is probably a requisite for a high success rate. I think our Jews are less likely to have out-married, perhaps because of strong established Jewish institutions. There are still Jewish Summer Camps here – the tacit goal seems to be to promote Jewish children socializing with one another and dating one another early in life (Jewish kids are under social pressure to date semi-seriously by the time they and their peers start having Bar Mitzvahs).

    Mischlings are difficult though, because the Jewish “type” really seems to fully dissipate after one mix – it’s almost like those Ashkenazi genes are all wound up and with one exogenous mix they dissipate entirely. Paul Newman is a good example of this.

    • Replies: @Hail

    Mischlings are difficult though, because the Jewish “type” really seems to fully dissipate after one mix
     
    Would you be able to guess the Amy Chua Tiger Daughters are Jewish?

    (They literally "are" Jewish -- raised Jewish, identify primarily as Jewish; at least one of the daughters is an aggressive IDF fan who slams Palestinians.)

    https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=amy+chua+daughters

    , @Jonathan Mason

    The same people also have the smallest noses in all of Europe, so rarely look Jewish.
     
    My father often used to quote:

    And the Lord said unto Moses
    All Jews shall have big noses.
  164. Anonymous[362] • Disclaimer says:
    @Lot
    “BTW, Jews traditionally have also encouraged uncle-niece marriages, something which most hillbillies I’ve known would look upon askance.”

    Source? I have never heard of this. Perhaps plausible among Yemeni Jews who more than other groups have gone native.

    “Hillbillies” do have a slightly higher rate of inbreeding than other white Americans, but still very low by European standards, which in turn are low by world standards.

    ‘Source? I have never heard of this. ‘

    Ive heard of it plenty. Look up the Rothschilds the most fampus Jewish family in hostoy. They were well known for it.

  165. @MEH 0910

    Boris Banished From Rugrats Strip

    One regular Rugrats character is not working too well in the strip -- Grandpa Boris.

    In the Sunday 9/20/98 strip, syndicated to papers nationwide, Boris and his congregation recite The Mourner's Kaddish during the Rosh Hashanah holiday, when this strip was published.

    What the strip originally meant to do is to represent the Jewish faith, which is severely underrepresented in today's comics. Instead, it created controversy, which led to the removal of one of the series' most loved adults.

    The Jewish Anti-Defamation League complained to Nick about the portrayal of Jews in the strip, with Boris being the main cause of defamation. According to the ADL, Boris was drawn in a manner similar to Nazi-era Jewish stereotypes. Furthermore, his recitation of the Mourner's Kaddish in a light-hearted fashion provided further insult, since the Kaddish is supposed to be recited in a serious manner. Nick president Herb Scannell called this offense an "error of judgement".

    To appease the ADL, Nick will no longer include Boris in future strips, nor would the strip make any references to religion.
     
    http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130901223038/rugrats/images/9/92/Boriskaddish.png

    So their complaint about Boris is that he looks too Jewish?

    Perhaps fear of the ADL is why Ingrid Bergman was cast as Golda Meir.

  166. Anonymous[430] • Disclaimer says:

    I seem to recall from various science and culture news that, while Jewish religious identity was was established in the Middle East, Ashkenazi genetic identity was established during the diaspora, based on the founding DNA of 12 pre-biblical Syrian men. After the Great Revolt ca 70 AD, the Jewish equivalent of the million Muslim March (mostly male) spread out of Judea into the Roman Empire, mating with women in locales they passed through. Nobody has studied the types of non-Jewish women who would mate with Jewish diaspora men, but that sounds like an interesting research topic.

  167. @Colin Wright
    'The article in The Guardian is problematic due to its leftist ideological biases and for taking Professor Shlomo Sand seriously. According to his April 14, 2019 interview with Mediapart.fr, Sand is currently writing a French novel that argues against the notion of genetic Jewishness. He is still in denial of the significant indigenous roots of Western Jews in Israel.'

    I notice that you don't rebut Sand's actual arguments.

    1. The probable Jewish population of Roman Palestine simply couldn't have expanded enough quickly enough to account for the Jewish population of the Roman Empire. 100,000 cannot equal 2,000,000 -- not in six generations or so. More generous figures assume that all the inhabitants of Palestine were Jews, and they all fled Palestine to settle elsewhere -- and both parts of that are demonstrable nonsense.

    2. In the Jewish cemeteries of the Roman Empire, half the names of each successive generation indicate that the deceased was a convert. Do the math on what percentage of a population will remain genetically 'Jewish' if half of each generation are converts.

    Why would so many people have converted? Was it mainly wives converting to the religion of their husbands? When did this huge wave of conversions start?

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
    'Why would so many people have converted? Was it mainly wives converting to the religion of their husbands? When did this huge wave of conversions start?'

    Judaism originally was a proselytizing religion. One of its sects -- Christianity -- proved especially successful.

    Dependents tend to take up the faith of their masters. Slaves, maids, tenants, wives, employees...it's ordinary human behavior. Nobody had to force the black slaves in the South become Christians, for example. Today, if an affirmative action cadet gets into an elite college, he pretty soon learns the party line and starts regurgitating it.

    The interesting question wouldn't be why did Judaism start proselytizing, but why did it stop? As late as the eighth century, Carolingian bishops were complaining about Jewish landlords converting their dependent peasantry.
    , @notanon

    Why would so many people have converted?
     
    slaves
  168. Hail says: • Website
    @Alec Leamas

    That’s why you can’t tell who’s Jewish by looking.
     
    One can guess successfully for pure (say, >90%) Ashkenazi ancestry at a rate much higher than random chance. Add in the observations of mannerisms and that rate is going to skyrocket.

    I think that one's ability to do so correlates with living in proximity to Jews - being from East Coast ethnic neighborhoods dealing with typical Jews is probably a requisite for a high success rate. I think our Jews are less likely to have out-married, perhaps because of strong established Jewish institutions. There are still Jewish Summer Camps here - the tacit goal seems to be to promote Jewish children socializing with one another and dating one another early in life (Jewish kids are under social pressure to date semi-seriously by the time they and their peers start having Bar Mitzvahs).

    Mischlings are difficult though, because the Jewish "type" really seems to fully dissipate after one mix - it's almost like those Ashkenazi genes are all wound up and with one exogenous mix they dissipate entirely. Paul Newman is a good example of this.

    Mischlings are difficult though, because the Jewish “type” really seems to fully dissipate after one mix

    Would you be able to guess the Amy Chua Tiger Daughters are Jewish?

    (They literally “are” Jewish — raised Jewish, identify primarily as Jewish; at least one of the daughters is an aggressive IDF fan who slams Palestinians.)

    https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=amy+chua+daughters

    • Replies: @Alec Leamas

    Would you be able to guess the Amy Chua Tiger Daughters are Jewish?
     
    Of course not. They're <50% Ashkenazi, and half Chinese.

    (They literally “are” Jewish — raised Jewish, identify primarily as Jewish; at least one of the daughters is an aggressive IDF fan who slams Palestinians.)
     
    They can "identify" however they want. We know that Jews are an ethnic group and a religion and the two don't always correspond completely.

    You might as well have asked if I would be able to guess that Sammy Davis Jr. is Jewish.
    , @Logan
    Not according to Jewish law they're not, unless they've converted.
  169. @Colin Wright
    'The article in The Guardian is problematic due to its leftist ideological biases and for taking Professor Shlomo Sand seriously. According to his April 14, 2019 interview with Mediapart.fr, Sand is currently writing a French novel that argues against the notion of genetic Jewishness. He is still in denial of the significant indigenous roots of Western Jews in Israel.'

    I notice that you don't rebut Sand's actual arguments.

    1. The probable Jewish population of Roman Palestine simply couldn't have expanded enough quickly enough to account for the Jewish population of the Roman Empire. 100,000 cannot equal 2,000,000 -- not in six generations or so. More generous figures assume that all the inhabitants of Palestine were Jews, and they all fled Palestine to settle elsewhere -- and both parts of that are demonstrable nonsense.

    2. In the Jewish cemeteries of the Roman Empire, half the names of each successive generation indicate that the deceased was a convert. Do the math on what percentage of a population will remain genetically 'Jewish' if half of each generation are converts.

    Schlomo Sand is wrong. So are you: not least in thinking that there were only 100,000 Jews in Roman Palestine.

    There are a number of factual comments about Jewish ancestry and genetics on this thread: most are wrong.

    • Replies: @Lot
    “thinking that there were only 100,000 Jews in Roman Palestine.”

    The many Roman legions that defeated the Bar Kokhba revolt of Palestinian Jews consisted of 120,000 soldiers because smaller forces were unable to defeat them.

    It still took many years for the Romans to do so, even though this was around the Roman Empire’s geographic peak, and led by the extremely competent Hadrian.

    Modern estimates of the population of Italy from that period are about 10 million, one sixth the modern count. Applied to Israel, this implies a population of about one million.
    , @Colin Wright
    '...Schlomo Sand is wrong. So are you: not least in thinking that there were only 100,000 Jews in Roman Palestine...'

    And how many were there? And if they all left, who wrote the Palestinian Talmud?

    And however many left, how did they miraculously multiply to become the millions of Jews recorded in the Roman Empire of the Second Century?

    And why did so many keep taking names indicating they were converts?

    Your fantasies didn't happen. Get that through your head, and then start thinking rationally, and stop inflicting your lies on yourselves and on an innocent world.
    , @Colin Wright
    '...So are you: not least in thinking that there were only 100,000 Jews in Roman Palestine...'

    I didn't say there were necessarily only one hundred thousand Jews in Roman Palestine. I merely implied it's improbable more than that emigrated. What I said was:

    'More generous figures assume that all the inhabitants of Palestine were Jews, and they all fled Palestine to settle elsewhere...'

    Learn to read.

  170. @Alec Leamas

    That’s why you can’t tell who’s Jewish by looking.
     
    One can guess successfully for pure (say, >90%) Ashkenazi ancestry at a rate much higher than random chance. Add in the observations of mannerisms and that rate is going to skyrocket.

    I think that one's ability to do so correlates with living in proximity to Jews - being from East Coast ethnic neighborhoods dealing with typical Jews is probably a requisite for a high success rate. I think our Jews are less likely to have out-married, perhaps because of strong established Jewish institutions. There are still Jewish Summer Camps here - the tacit goal seems to be to promote Jewish children socializing with one another and dating one another early in life (Jewish kids are under social pressure to date semi-seriously by the time they and their peers start having Bar Mitzvahs).

    Mischlings are difficult though, because the Jewish "type" really seems to fully dissipate after one mix - it's almost like those Ashkenazi genes are all wound up and with one exogenous mix they dissipate entirely. Paul Newman is a good example of this.

    The same people also have the smallest noses in all of Europe, so rarely look Jewish.

    My father often used to quote:

    And the Lord said unto Moses
    All Jews shall have big noses.

    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
    You've missed the last line

    "Excepting unto Aaron
    And his shall be a square'un"
     
  171. One can guess successfully for pure (say, >90%) Ashkenazi ancestry at a rate much higher than random chance. Add in the observations of mannerisms and that rate is going to skyrocket.

    I think it must depend on whether one is predisposed to do so.

    As a young man I lived in North Leeds, Yorkshire, England, which has a sizeable Jewish community and was represented in parliament by Sir Keith Joseph MP, who was close to Margaret Thatcher. Apparently Joseph is a Jewish surname, though my experience is that it is an extremely common surname in Haiti, where the people do not appear to be Jews.

    I never remember identifying ANYONE as Jewish back then, unless I knew their surname was Cohen or Levy. George Cohen played for the England soccer team in winning the World Cup in 1988, and he was known to be Jewish. Sigmund Freud also, though he did not play soccer due to an unfortunate childhood trauma.

    That was Leeds. In London Jews seem to wear black coats, skullcaps, and long beards, which makes them stick out a bit, or they live in a suburb close to Hampstead called Golders Green. In Moortown, Leeds they were like everyone else.

    I was once in the home of a very elderly Jewish man for work-related reasons (as far as I can recall) on a Friday evening when he and his wife were lighting candles. As they lived in a very humble abode, I formed the impression that Jews were usually very poor, and that they were also associated with gangs of pickpockets, so I kept my hands in my pockets.

    https://www.jewishgen.org/JCR-UK/Leeds.htm

  172. @Jack D
    There are Jews with blue eyes but then they don't usually have black hair.

    The late actor Gene Wilder was very blue eyed, quite blond but still somewhat “jewish looking”. Not sure what his own views were but he was terrific in Mel Brooks’ odd take on identity “Young Frankenstein”, in which the main character evolves from the assimilated secular “Fronk-un-steen” to the ethnically “aware” “Frankenstein” as he creates life in the monster (played by Peter Boyle).

  173. @Old Palo Altan
    The European upper classes have done it too, even as late as the early 20th century, and without unfortunate consequences.

    I know of at least two cases within my own family circle: a Prussian baron and general married his niece (whose equally baronial brother was a famous general in World War II), who was no less than 32 years younger than himself. But they had no children.

    In the other case a Dutch industrialist married his sister's daughter, whose father was an even more important mover-and-shaker than his brother-in-law, and they had two children, one of whom hugely overshadowed both his grandfathers and is to this day revered in Holland and England as the real founder of the industry which made his name and fortune. In his case a double dose of talent and drive paid off handsomely.

    But of course this is not a trick which bears repetition. In another branch there were successive first cousin marriages over three generations: we'll say that the resultant children were odd, and leave it at that.

    “overshadowed both his grandfathers and is to this day revered in Holland and England as the real founder of the industry which made his name and fortune. ”

    Who? The two giant companies whose HQ and management are split between Holland and England are Shell and Unilever.

    Shell was founded by Iraqi Jewish brothers, whose parents came to England sometime before their 1850s birth. One of them was made Viscount Bearsted and has many descendants who are a mix of mostly Anglican commercial families with a few AJs mixed in, resulting in his great great grandchildren having names like “Maximilian Bertie Thomas Waley-Cohen” an actual English six year old. His impressive cousin, pictured below with Kate Middleton, was the first amateur jockey to win the Cheltenham Gold Cup in 30 years and became a multimillionaire “independently” by starting a dental supply business.

    Unilever was the first big European soap and bath sundries company (the UK part) and margarine maker (Dutch part). I don’t see anything about Lever brothers being inbred. The Jurgens biography says one of the founders and his uncle married into the same family, but that is the extent of anything about inbreeding, if you can even count your aunt’s otherwise unrelated family.

    Uncle marriage is twice as bad as first cousin marriage, but if the background population frequency of it is low enough, the effect isn’t too terrible in isolated instances.

    • Replies: @Anon

    and became a multimillionaire “independently” by starting a dental supply business.
     
    How do the Jews do it, Lot? Again and again this extraordinary success in business. Who knew that Shell, too, was founded by Jews? Another example.
    , @Anonymous
    Holland and Holland, however, are entirely English.

    https://www.hollandandholland.com/
    , @Old Palo Altan
    There are (or were) other big Anglo-Dutch companies, but I won't mention which - like all of us, I like my anonymity.

    As for Shell (as I remark in a reply to a reply to you), it was only half Jewish in origin. The other, Dutch, half was so proudly Aryan that a son of one of the founders was a leading collaborator during World War II. You can see him in a fascinating Youtube clip of Himmler's visit to the Hague in 1942, but again, I won't say exactly where.
    , @Reg Cæsar

    Unilever was the first big European soap and bath sundries company (the UK part) and margarine maker (Dutch part). I don’t see anything about Lever brothers being inbred.
     
    Soap. Margarine.

    There's a difference?
    , @Anonymous

    don’t see anything about Lever brothers being inbred.
     
    Were the Lever brothers Jewish?
  174. @Dmitry
    Mountain Jews, for example, are still a very dark brown race. While it's Ashkenazi Jews in Russia, became mainly white.

    If you look at different kinds of Jews next to each other today - in cities with different kinds of Jews, it's become at least 3 different races sharing the same religion.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyDKOz03XME

    The Mountain/Armenian Jews are descendants of Persian Jews and local populations where they settled.

    I never met one, though an AJ from NY area told me they aren’t smart and don’t have a good reputation around NYC.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    I've read Mountain Jews, Armenian Jews and Georgian Jews, are different races, with different ethnogenesis, and today do not marry between each other.

    Each has its own native language. Even young Mountain Jews are speaking in "Tat language" natively.

    Moreover, their appearance is different between each other. For example, Mountain Jews seem generally a darker race than Georgian Jews.

    Externally, the Mountain Jewish race appears quite similar to Northern Indian or Iranian races.


    I never met one, though an AJ from NY area told me they aren’t smart and don’t have a good reputation around NYC.

     

    According to Russian media - Mountain Jews are supposed to be the richest nationality in Russia today.

    However, this calculation is probably not accurate, if you know Russian census. In this census, you can write any nationality you want to be today (people can even write "Jedi").

    Most Mountain Jews, will surely write they are "Jews" in the census, instead of "Mountain Jews". While most people with Ashkenazi Jewish descent, will definitely write "Russian" in the census.

    As their number is underestimated in the census, the extent of their per capita wealth will be probably inflated.

  175. Anon[345] • Disclaimer says:
    @Old Palo Altan
    The European upper classes have done it too, even as late as the early 20th century, and without unfortunate consequences.

    I know of at least two cases within my own family circle: a Prussian baron and general married his niece (whose equally baronial brother was a famous general in World War II), who was no less than 32 years younger than himself. But they had no children.

    In the other case a Dutch industrialist married his sister's daughter, whose father was an even more important mover-and-shaker than his brother-in-law, and they had two children, one of whom hugely overshadowed both his grandfathers and is to this day revered in Holland and England as the real founder of the industry which made his name and fortune. In his case a double dose of talent and drive paid off handsomely.

    But of course this is not a trick which bears repetition. In another branch there were successive first cousin marriages over three generations: we'll say that the resultant children were odd, and leave it at that.

    But of course this is not a trick which bears repetition. In another branch there were successive first cousin marriages over three generations: we’ll say that the resultant children were odd, and leave it at that.
    ———-

    Did they insist on driving Astons instead of Bentleys or some such barbarity?

    • Replies: @Old Palo Altan
    What's an Aston?
  176. Lot says:
    @gcochran
    Schlomo Sand is wrong. So are you: not least in thinking that there were only 100,000 Jews in Roman Palestine.

    There are a number of factual comments about Jewish ancestry and genetics on this thread: most are wrong.

    “thinking that there were only 100,000 Jews in Roman Palestine.”

    The many Roman legions that defeated the Bar Kokhba revolt of Palestinian Jews consisted of 120,000 soldiers because smaller forces were unable to defeat them.

    It still took many years for the Romans to do so, even though this was around the Roman Empire’s geographic peak, and led by the extremely competent Hadrian.

    Modern estimates of the population of Italy from that period are about 10 million, one sixth the modern count. Applied to Israel, this implies a population of about one million.

  177. @gcochran
    Schlomo Sand is wrong. So are you: not least in thinking that there were only 100,000 Jews in Roman Palestine.

    There are a number of factual comments about Jewish ancestry and genetics on this thread: most are wrong.

    ‘…Schlomo Sand is wrong. So are you: not least in thinking that there were only 100,000 Jews in Roman Palestine…’

    And how many were there? And if they all left, who wrote the Palestinian Talmud?

    And however many left, how did they miraculously multiply to become the millions of Jews recorded in the Roman Empire of the Second Century?

    And why did so many keep taking names indicating they were converts?

    Your fantasies didn’t happen. Get that through your head, and then start thinking rationally, and stop inflicting your lies on yourselves and on an innocent world.

  178. Anonymous[401] • Disclaimer says:

    Basically this genetic matchmaking process is about matching people with genes for Tay Sachs etc with those who don’t. So if there are IQ/financial success/TFR improving things associated with these genetic downsides, their greater eventual prevalence will lead to all Jews having one copy of these illnesses / benefits. Then who do they marry, lol.

    [MORE]

    The top shelf shiksas, that’s who

  179. @Travis
    so true. Ashkenazi Jews are all closer genetically to each other than most Americans are to their fourth cousins. On average a white American will shares about .20% of their DNA with a fourth cousin, while Ashkenazi Jews will share 1.5% of their DNA with a fourth Cousin

    My best friend is half Ashkenazi, his mother was jewish.. When he did 23andme it listed his 1,500 closest relatives....99% were Jewish despite having more known Paternal relatives, his paternal family had settled in America prior to the 1800s. Yet while he shared .8% of his DNA with a paternal third cousin , he shared .8% of his DNA with hundreds of Ashkenazi Jews who were distant cousins, on his maternal side. His actual third cousins on his Ashkenazi side shared 7% of their DNA with him , more typical of a first cousin. Any Jew who tested at 23anmde will realize how inbred they are, as second and third cousins will appear as first cousins and first cousins will be predicted Aunts and Uncles....

    Usually Americans with deep roots in America will find lots of potential fourth cousins at 23andme. Although 25% of your fourth cousins will share zero DNA with you. It is interesting to see how many of my matches , who are fourth cousins , do not share any DNA with my sister. And vice verse, about 25% of her matches share zero DNA with me. Thus a typical American will not even share any DNA with a confirmed fifth cousin, while Ashkenazi Jews will share a minimum of .2% with all Ashkenazi Jews.

    Sorry to nitpick, but two random A Jews are, on average, the equivalent of 5th cousins.

    First cousins typically share 12.5% of their DNA (50% mother/father; 25% uncle/aunt; 12.5% first cousin; and so on)

  180. @gcochran
    Schlomo Sand is wrong. So are you: not least in thinking that there were only 100,000 Jews in Roman Palestine.

    There are a number of factual comments about Jewish ancestry and genetics on this thread: most are wrong.

    ‘…So are you: not least in thinking that there were only 100,000 Jews in Roman Palestine…’

    I didn't say there were necessarily only one hundred thousand Jews in Roman Palestine. I merely implied it's improbable more than that emigrated. What I said was:

    ‘More generous figures assume that all the inhabitants of Palestine were Jews, and they all fled Palestine to settle elsewhere…’

    Learn to read.

  181. @Jack D

    but the negative traits that inbreeding has associated with intelligence in Ashkenaz Jewish populations -the only Jewish populations demomstrating exceptionally high average IQs – may decrease Darwinian fitness in other settings.
     
    That's true - we know how unsuited Jews are for the modern world. They are like Amazonian Indians or aborigines - completely unable to cope with modernity. Once taken from their shteltls and confronted with novel situations or societies, they just fell to pieces.

    Pretty much. Y’all need to get your shit together before you bring the rest of us down around you.

    Not really kidding. Little humility might be a good start. Back when y’all sucked less you knew that.

  182. Palestine in 1880 had a population of 325,000. Although it’s not apparent from our perspective, there had actually been quite a few advances from Roman times to the nineteenth century in agriculture — but have 300,000. There were three hundred thousand inhabitants of Palestine in the year 0.

    We know not all of these were Jews — Herod built temples for Jews, and he built temples for worshippers of Baal. He ruled a state that was not solely Jewish. There were Jews, there were Baal worshippers, there were Greeks. As to the peasantry in the countryside, who knows?

    But have 200,000 Jews in Roman Palestine. It’s improbable, but okay.

    Now, we know many never left. There was a Palestinian Talmud. When the Persians conquered Palestine in the Seventh Century, a Jewish puppet state appeared. Obviously, many Jews were still in Palestine.

    So a hundred thousand emigrated? That would seem to be a generous figure. Necessarily, most of the millions of Jews in the Roman Empire — and by extension, most of the Jews in the world today — did not descend from inhabitants of Palestine.

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    There are photos of Palestine from the late 19th century. It looks like a sparsely populated wasteland. Doesn’t look like it was at the forefront of advanced agriculture.
  183. Anon[265] • Disclaimer says:

    OT

    This is what you get with a socially, racially homogeneous society (with extremely limited numbers of immigrants who accept that it is their duy to understand and conform to local norms) (the Atlantic doesn’t quite put it that way).

    Why Japanese Kids Can Walk to School Alone
    Even in big cities like Tokyo, small children take the subway and run errands by themselves. The reason has a lot to do with group dynamics.

    https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2015/10/why-japanese-kids-can-walk-to-school-alone/408475/

    What accounts for this unusual degree of independence? Not self-sufficiency, in fact, but “group reliance,” according to Dwayne Dixon, a cultural anthropologist who wrote his doctoral dissertation on Japanese youth. “[Japanese] kids learn early on that, ideally, any member of the community can be called on to serve or help others,” he says.

    Left unsaid is that the “group” is the homogeneous racial and cultural group of Japanese people.

    “Public space is scaled so much better—old, human-sized spaces that also control flow and speed,” Dixon notes.

    I don’t think that public spaces have anything to do with it. Japanese urban residential streets have no sidewalks. Both drivers and kids need to be really careful. Outside of the ancient capital of Kyoto, streets are laid out in a confusing random cellular grid making it easy to get lost. Japan is safe for kids despite, not because of, its urban design. It all comes down to the homogeneous Japanese population.

    I live in Tokyo and I can vouch that not only are kids allowed to go places on their own (after massive indoctrination on stop-look-and-listen in schools), but men can walk literally anywhere at any time of day or night without fear, in the city or country, and women can and do walk virtually anywhere at any time, but perhaps with a slight frisson of apprehension in extreme circumstances.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
    '...I don’t think that public spaces have anything to do with it. Japanese urban residential streets have no sidewalks...'

    ? My wife and I visited Japan in 2015. We stomped all over urban sidewalks: sidewalks in Kagoshima, and sidewalks in Kyoto. Sidewalks in Osaka, and sidewalks in Tokyo. Sidewalks here. Sidewalks there.

    What are you talking about?
    , @Colin Wright
    ' Japan is safe for kids despite, not because of, its urban design. It all comes down to the homogeneous Japanese population.'

    Meh. The homogeneous population certainly wouldn't hurt, but it's not essential.

    When I was six -- that was in 1964, in the San Francisco Bay Area -- things were plenty multi-racial, but I used to go around by myself on foot and on buses up to about five miles from home.

    No one thought anything about it. When my dad was six (1920), he'd taken the Key Line from his home in North Oakland to Richmond, the ferry across the Bay, the train up to the top of Mount Tamilpais, and then walked up to the fire lookout, where the lookout fed him peanut butter and honey sandwiches.

    We don't need to be Japanese -- or even have an especially homogenous society -- to be safe. Something else has gone wrong.
  184. Good for the Rabbis. Many of the Russian Jews who refugeed themselves to Israel aren’t jews half 1/4 1/8 1/16 or any kind of Jew at all. And most of the Russian Jewish mafias just used Israel as a rest stop on their way to America.

    • Replies: @Alden
    I meant Russian claiming to be Jewish mafias.
  185. @Lot
    “overshadowed both his grandfathers and is to this day revered in Holland and England as the real founder of the industry which made his name and fortune. ”

    Who? The two giant companies whose HQ and management are split between Holland and England are Shell and Unilever.

    Shell was founded by Iraqi Jewish brothers, whose parents came to England sometime before their 1850s birth. One of them was made Viscount Bearsted and has many descendants who are a mix of mostly Anglican commercial families with a few AJs mixed in, resulting in his great great grandchildren having names like “Maximilian Bertie Thomas Waley-Cohen” an actual English six year old. His impressive cousin, pictured below with Kate Middleton, was the first amateur jockey to win the Cheltenham Gold Cup in 30 years and became a multimillionaire “independently” by starting a dental supply business.

    https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/03/19/article-0-0B3DB84600000578-32_634x519.jpg

    Unilever was the first big European soap and bath sundries company (the UK part) and margarine maker (Dutch part). I don’t see anything about Lever brothers being inbred. The Jurgens biography says one of the founders and his uncle married into the same family, but that is the extent of anything about inbreeding, if you can even count your aunt’s otherwise unrelated family.

    Uncle marriage is twice as bad as first cousin marriage, but if the background population frequency of it is low enough, the effect isn’t too terrible in isolated instances.

    and became a multimillionaire “independently” by starting a dental supply business.

    How do the Jews do it, Lot? Again and again this extraordinary success in business. Who knew that Shell, too, was founded by Jews? Another example.

    • Replies: @Old Palo Altan
    Only one half of what we know today as Shell was founded by Jews (the Samuels) - the English part. The Dutch half was founded by three men, all of whom are in fact relations of mine, and none of whom were Jewish. A son of one of them was actually an important collaborator with the Germans during their occupation of the Netherlands - he spent the final 25 years of his life in Switzerland.

    Note that even Lot wrote "independently". He gets the joke.
    , @BengaliCanadianDude
    Its an oil company, jewish ethnocentrism as well as the fact that the others weree gentiles
  186. @Anon
    OT

    This is what you get with a socially, racially homogeneous society (with extremely limited numbers of immigrants who accept that it is their duy to understand and conform to local norms) (the Atlantic doesn't quite put it that way).

    Why Japanese Kids Can Walk to School Alone
    Even in big cities like Tokyo, small children take the subway and run errands by themselves. The reason has a lot to do with group dynamics.

    https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2015/10/why-japanese-kids-can-walk-to-school-alone/408475/

    What accounts for this unusual degree of independence? Not self-sufficiency, in fact, but “group reliance,” according to Dwayne Dixon, a cultural anthropologist who wrote his doctoral dissertation on Japanese youth. “[Japanese] kids learn early on that, ideally, any member of the community can be called on to serve or help others,” he says.
     
    Left unsaid is that the "group" is the homogeneous racial and cultural group of Japanese people.

    “Public space is scaled so much better—old, human-sized spaces that also control flow and speed,” Dixon notes.
     
    I don't think that public spaces have anything to do with it. Japanese urban residential streets have no sidewalks. Both drivers and kids need to be really careful. Outside of the ancient capital of Kyoto, streets are laid out in a confusing random cellular grid making it easy to get lost. Japan is safe for kids despite, not because of, its urban design. It all comes down to the homogeneous Japanese population.

    I live in Tokyo and I can vouch that not only are kids allowed to go places on their own (after massive indoctrination on stop-look-and-listen in schools), but men can walk literally anywhere at any time of day or night without fear, in the city or country, and women can and do walk virtually anywhere at any time, but perhaps with a slight frisson of apprehension in extreme circumstances.

    ‘…I don’t think that public spaces have anything to do with it. Japanese urban residential streets have no sidewalks…’

    ? My wife and I visited Japan in 2015. We stomped all over urban sidewalks: sidewalks in Kagoshima, and sidewalks in Kyoto. Sidewalks in Osaka, and sidewalks in Tokyo. Sidewalks here. Sidewalks there.

    What are you talking about?

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    A265 is right, Wright. Yours is the difference between the tourist's view and the resident's view. Sure, there are sidewalks in certain areas, especially along main thoroughfares. But much of Tokyo and all of Japan is as A265 describes it.

    https://i.imgur.com/VeHpCxi.jpg

    https://i.imgur.com/16cdlo6.jpg

  187. @Hail

    Michele Sutter
    @MicheSutter
    Jun 14, 2019

    Seeing black pilots on my flights always calms me because I know they had to be twice as good to get into that cockpit.
     
    Bizarre reasoning there.

    Thinking about it, I think it's likely fair to label that a (subtle) anti-White race-libel.

    This is apparently the Tweeter's bio:

    Michele Sutter, MOVI (Money Out Voters In) co-founder, is a writer, teacher, producer, and activist. She is a former Story Editor at HBO and a former co-chair of The 29th Street Project, a New York City based theater artists' cooperative. She also produced the 2009 Los Angeles Drama Critics Circle Award winning musical adaptation of Aristophanes' The Wasps. A former ESL teacher for the Los Angeles Unified School District, she is a graduate of Princeton University and a recipient of a Nicholl Fellowship in screenwriting from The Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences.
     
    Are we looking at an Every Single Time'r? Her bizarre comments about Black pilots would make more sense, anyway.

    Nichols fellowship and the other screen writing contests for amateurs with no connections are big rip offs.

    Organize a contest. Charge a reasonable fee for every entrance, $100, $200. Advertise all over the internet every college newspaper that has a film school Variety and other reputable trade magazines. Spend $10,000 for advertising. Get $150,000 from the suckers. Announce a winner BIg Deal.

    Make a hundred copies of the script and mail them to a hundred agencies for whatever it costs to send a 2 ounce DVD through the mail.

    Relax, generous living expenses for the next 2 years covered.

  188. @Alden
    Good for the Rabbis. Many of the Russian Jews who refugeed themselves to Israel aren’t jews half 1/4 1/8 1/16 or any kind of Jew at all. And most of the Russian Jewish mafias just used Israel as a rest stop on their way to America.

    I meant Russian claiming to be Jewish mafias.

  189. @Thulean Friend
    You shouldn't blindly adopt jewish racial slurs for blonde women. And if you are, use terms like kikes at the very least to even the balance for those who use it.

    You’re right, “shiksa” had a negative connotation. OTOH I know a lot of Jewish men who married non-Jewish women.

    • Replies: @Alden
    Shiksa means unclean abomination sub human 2 legged animal. Sex of a married Jewish man with a non Jewish woman is not adultery because non Jewish women are not really human. Morally, it’s the same as having sex with an animal, thus not adultery.
  190. @anon
    I appreciate many things about the Jews. Their humour is one of those things.

    Get an old copy of Leo Rosten’s The Joys of Yiddish. It’s a dictionary with humorous stories illustrating most words. Don’t get the (Politically Correct) new version done by his children.

  191. @Not Raul
    Why would so many people have converted? Was it mainly wives converting to the religion of their husbands? When did this huge wave of conversions start?

    ‘Why would so many people have converted? Was it mainly wives converting to the religion of their husbands? When did this huge wave of conversions start?’

    Judaism originally was a proselytizing religion. One of its sects — Christianity — proved especially successful.

    Dependents tend to take up the faith of their masters. Slaves, maids, tenants, wives, employees…it’s ordinary human behavior. Nobody had to force the black slaves in the South become Christians, for example. Today, if an affirmative action cadet gets into an elite college, he pretty soon learns the party line and starts regurgitating it.

    The interesting question wouldn’t be why did Judaism start proselytizing, but why did it stop? As late as the eighth century, Carolingian bishops were complaining about Jewish landlords converting their dependent peasantry.

    • Replies: @Not Raul
    Do you believe that the collapse of Roman slavery in the West, and the rise of Islam in the East, increased the incentive of former slaves and their descendants to leave Judaism?
  192. @Anon
    OT

    This is what you get with a socially, racially homogeneous society (with extremely limited numbers of immigrants who accept that it is their duy to understand and conform to local norms) (the Atlantic doesn't quite put it that way).

    Why Japanese Kids Can Walk to School Alone
    Even in big cities like Tokyo, small children take the subway and run errands by themselves. The reason has a lot to do with group dynamics.

    https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2015/10/why-japanese-kids-can-walk-to-school-alone/408475/

    What accounts for this unusual degree of independence? Not self-sufficiency, in fact, but “group reliance,” according to Dwayne Dixon, a cultural anthropologist who wrote his doctoral dissertation on Japanese youth. “[Japanese] kids learn early on that, ideally, any member of the community can be called on to serve or help others,” he says.
     
    Left unsaid is that the "group" is the homogeneous racial and cultural group of Japanese people.

    “Public space is scaled so much better—old, human-sized spaces that also control flow and speed,” Dixon notes.
     
    I don't think that public spaces have anything to do with it. Japanese urban residential streets have no sidewalks. Both drivers and kids need to be really careful. Outside of the ancient capital of Kyoto, streets are laid out in a confusing random cellular grid making it easy to get lost. Japan is safe for kids despite, not because of, its urban design. It all comes down to the homogeneous Japanese population.

    I live in Tokyo and I can vouch that not only are kids allowed to go places on their own (after massive indoctrination on stop-look-and-listen in schools), but men can walk literally anywhere at any time of day or night without fear, in the city or country, and women can and do walk virtually anywhere at any time, but perhaps with a slight frisson of apprehension in extreme circumstances.

    ‘ Japan is safe for kids despite, not because of, its urban design. It all comes down to the homogeneous Japanese population.’

    Meh. The homogeneous population certainly wouldn’t hurt, but it’s not essential.

    When I was six — that was in 1964, in the San Francisco Bay Area — things were plenty multi-racial, but I used to go around by myself on foot and on buses up to about five miles from home.

    No one thought anything about it. When my dad was six (1920), he’d taken the Key Line from his home in North Oakland to Richmond, the ferry across the Bay, the train up to the top of Mount Tamilpais, and then walked up to the fire lookout, where the lookout fed him peanut butter and honey sandwiches.

    We don’t need to be Japanese — or even have an especially homogenous society — to be safe. Something else has gone wrong.

    • Replies: @Anonymouse
    My experience growing up in NYC in the forties was that I could go anywhere - and I did. Half-fare on the subway was 3 cents (5 cents full fare). I took to wandering all over Manhattan from around 11. Of course, the population was all white except in Chinatown. To see Negroes you had to go to 125th st on the west side IRT - which I did once. Nothing happened but I remember feeling some apprehension. It was only in the 50s when jet flights from Puerto Rico became very economical that NYC started to fill up with Puerto Ricans.

    On another subject, I spoke too soon (comment 55) about the relative absence of jew haters commenting on iSteve's columns.

    , @David Davenport
    We don’t need to be Japanese — or even have an especially homogenous society — to be safe. Something else has gone wrong.

    It's you that's gone wrong. American society back then was culturally homogeneous. If a person wasn't white, he or she was compelled to act white.

    That "Meh" slang is a tell-tale that the use is a cultural Lefty and quite possibly ((( ))), by the way.

  193. @Lot
    “BTW, Jews traditionally have also encouraged uncle-niece marriages, something which most hillbillies I’ve known would look upon askance.”

    Source? I have never heard of this. Perhaps plausible among Yemeni Jews who more than other groups have gone native.

    “Hillbillies” do have a slightly higher rate of inbreeding than other white Americans, but still very low by European standards, which in turn are low by world standards.

    Rothschild girls sometimes really did marry blood, not by marriage uncles. In fact uncle blood niece marriage is still legal in Rhode Island because there was a big Jewish community there in Newport in colonial times. It was common enough with those colonial Jews that they got it written into the laws.

    I don’t know what the Rothschild’s did before old Mayer got rich but his 10 children all married and had children and all of the grandchildren married first cousins. The 10 Rothschild children didn’t marry into 10 other families . They married into just 7 other families.

    So some of the Rothschild grandchildren were double first cousins who married cousins and double first cousins. This continued for generations and when there were no male cousins some of the girls married blood uncles

    All this in breeding doesn’t seem to have harmed Rothschild brains health and looks at all.

    I have a friend whose parents are first cousins. They were farmers from a polish area where there weren’t many Jewish farmers. So they married first cousins for generations.

    He and one brother are lawyers. Other brother is an engineer. All normal. Best looking Jewish men I’ve ever seen. They look a lot like that actor Omar Sharif who played Dr. Zhivago.

    Maybe first cousin marriage isn’t so bad. Look what it did for the Rothschilds. And European royalty for 1500 years.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    In fact uncle blood niece marriage is still legal in Rhode Island...
     
    And presumably, uncle-nephew marriage since Obergefell.

    But only if Jews allow it.

    What a can of worms.
    , @Bardon Kaldian

    Maybe first cousin marriage isn’t so bad. Look what it did for the Rothschilds. And European royalty for 1500 years.
     
    Not so sure. It virtually destroyed Habsburgs.
    , @Ed
    James Rothschild, Mayer’s son and founder of Paris branch married his niece Betty, daughter of his brother Salomon.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Mayer_de_Rothschild
    , @notanon

    Maybe first cousin marriage isn’t so bad. Look what it did for the Rothschilds. And European royalty for 1500 years.
     
    after a while banking families married into the landed aristocracy.
  194. @Anon
    Here is a Brief on the Jewish Mishnaic Scale of Lineages.

    Legitimate converts are not to be trusted for 22 generations (as you remark, essentially never). Doctrinally, Judaism is a genetic group and no more than that:

    Maimonides on Judaism & the Jewish People (1991)
    Menachem Marc Kellner

    https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=6HlxxKP1AtAC&lpg=PA5&ots=fik19PoUQN&dq=jewish%20converts%20inferior&pg=PA5#v=onepage&q=%22Halevi%20meets%20the%22&f=false

    How do Jewish converts feel knowing "native" Jews consider them inferior & a hindrance to the messiahs arrival?

    "Halevi (12th century Jewish poet & "philosopher") meets the problem of conversion by arguing that converts are indeed not the equals of native Jews and that only after many generations, so it would seem, can their descendants be fully amalgamated into the Jewish people. To adopt a brilliant and amusing metaphor of Daniel J. Lasker's, just as IBM PC clones may run the same software as original IBM hardware, but are still not the real thing; so, too, converts may believe what native Jews believe, and act as they do (software), they are still not the same as native Jews (hardware)."
     

    Jewish Identity in Early Rabbinic Writings
    By Sacha Stern
    p. 94

    http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ekhqsS8GKo8C&lpg=PA92&dq=jewish%20converts%20inferior&pg=PA94#v=onepage&q=%22the%20Midrash%20remarks:%20%22do%20not%20trust%20the%20convert,%20even%20after%20the%2022nd%20generation22%20(according%20to%20another%20source,%20for%207%20generations%20a%20convert%20cannot%20be%20trusted%20not%20to%20have%20returned%20to%20his%20old%20ways).&f=false

    "the Midrash remarks: "do not trust the convert, even after the 22nd generation" (according to another source, for 7 generations a convert cannot be trusted not to
    have returned to his old ways).

     

    Jewish Identity in Early Rabbinic Writings
    By Sacha Stern
    p. 94

    http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ekhqsS8GKo8C&lpg=PA92&dq=jewish%20converts%20inferior&pg=PA94#v=onepage&q=%22converts%20are%20also%20a%20hindrance%20to%20the%20coming%20of%20the%20Messiah%22&f=false

    "converts are also a hindrance to the coming of the Messiah"
     

    Jewish Identity in Early Rabbinic Writings
    By Sacha Stern
    p. 94

    https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ekhqsS8GKo8C&lpg=PA92&dq=jewish%20converts%20inferior&pg=PA94#v=onepage&q=%22his%20tendency%20to%20lapse%20is%20considered%20a%20liability%20to%20Israel%2C%20which%20explains%20Rabbi%20Helbo's%20well-known%20saying%3A%20%22converts%20are%20as%20difficult%20to%20Israel%20as%20leprosy%22&f=false

    "... his tendency to lapse is considered a liability to Israel, which explains Rabbi Helbo's well-known saying: "converts are as difficult to Israel as leprosy". The Babylonian Talmud treats the converts with suspicion: it wonders whether their motives were indeed sincere, and why they waited so long to convert; it also suspects them of acting out of fear rather than out of love. If a convert is suspected of (transgressing) a single commandment, he must be suspected of (transgressing) the whole Torah."
     

    Jewish Identity in Early Rabbinic Writings
    By Sacha Stern
    p. 92

    https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ekhqsS8GKo8C&lpg=PA92&dq=jewish%20converts%20inferior&pg=PA92#v=onepage&q=%22In%20certain%20contexts%20the%20convert%20is%20distinguished%20from%20the%20Jewish-born%20as%20having%20inferior%20status.%22&f=false

    Jews listed in order of importance (most to least)

    "In certain contexts the convert is distinguished from the Jewish-born as having inferior status. In the liturgy, he cannot refer to the Patriarchs as "our forefathers". More importantly, his lineage is inferior to that of most Jewish-born, as according to the mishnaic scale of lineages (yohasin):

    1. Priest (cohen)
    2. Levite
    3. Israel (ordinary Jews)
    4. Impaired priest (descendent of a cohen who'd broken the marriage rules)
    5. Convert
    6. Freedman (former slave)
    5. Bastard
    6. Natin (Gibeonite) (Jews forbidden to marry ordinary Jews)
    7. Silent (of unknown fatherhood)
    8. Foundling (abandoned as a child)"
     

    The Nuremberg laws were more lenient.

  195. @Anon7
    You’re right, “shiksa” had a negative connotation. OTOH I know a lot of Jewish men who married non-Jewish women.

    Shiksa means unclean abomination sub human 2 legged animal. Sex of a married Jewish man with a non Jewish woman is not adultery because non Jewish women are not really human. Morally, it’s the same as having sex with an animal, thus not adultery.

  196. @Kevin Brook
    Sephardic Jews from the northern parts of the former Ottoman Empire have a small amount of Spanish DNA but they are mostly a mix of Greek + Anatolian + Israelite + North African, so similar to Ashkenazic Jews.

    Sephardim and Ashkenazim share 87.2% of the same ancestors from about 1,500-2,000 years ago using nMonte models with a genetic distance of 0.8842. The components that are unique to Ashkenazim that Sephardim don't have include German, Slavic, and Han Chinese. Some German Jews have close to 0% Slavic and 0% Chinese DNA so they come out even closer to Sephardim than the average Ashkenazi from further east.

    Sephardic Jews from Bulgaria are noticeably mixed with Ashkenazic settlers who had moved south several centuries ago. Sephardic Jews from Turkey and Greece partially descend from pre-existing Jewish communities that existed in the area before Sephardim arrived. Moroccan Jews have varying degrees of Berber DNA - more Sephardic in the north and increasing Berber going south. Syrian Jews from Aleppo with their substantial Musta'arabi ancestry are far from pure Sephardim even though some of them call themselves Sephardim and can trace some lineages to Spain.

    Is your view that Ashkenazis are less Levantine Hebrew-Italian mixes than Levantine Hebrew-Greek mixes?

    • Replies: @Kevin Brook
    Steve Sailer asked "Is your view that Ashkenazis are less Levantine Hebrew-Italian mixes than Levantine Hebrew-Greek mixes?"

    Yes. The most current evidence is that Ashkenazim have both Italian and Greek ancestry but the Greek ancestry is more substantial.

    From the new study "Genetic history of the population of Crete" by Petros Drineas, et al. in Annals of Human Genetics, June 13, 2019 (https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/ahg.12328):
    "In the PCA of Crete vs Europe, the Cretans overlap with three populations: the Peloponneseans, the Sicilians and the Ashkenazi Jews (see Figures 4a, S17, and S18). [...] Furthermore, we find in both PCA and ADMIXTURE analysis, that the Ashkenazi are more similar to the Cretans than to the two Levantine Semitic populations. One possible explanation is that this relation might reveal a common Mediterranean ancestry that the Cretan and Ashkenazi populations share."

    By contrast, scientists have not found a noteworthy amount of identical-by-descent DNA sharing between Ashkenazic Jews and the non-Greek Italians from northern Italy. A connection of that kind was one of the earlier hypotheses but it looks wrong now.
    , @Kevin Brook
    Steve Sailer asked "Is your view that Ashkenazis are less Levantine Hebrew-Italian mixes than Levantine Hebrew-Greek mixes?"

    Yes. The most current evidence is that Ashkenazim have both Italian and Greek ancestry but the Greek ancestry is more substantial.

    From the new study "Genetic history of the population of Crete" by Petros Drineas, et al. in Annals of Human Genetics, June 13, 2019:
    "In the PCA of Crete vs Europe, the Cretans overlap with three populations: the Peloponneseans, the Sicilians and the Ashkenazi Jews (see Figures 4a, S17, and S18). [...] Furthermore, we find in both PCA and ADMIXTURE analysis, that the Ashkenazi are more similar to the Cretans than to the two Levantine Semitic populations. One possible explanation is that this relation might reveal a common Mediterranean ancestry that the Cretan and Ashkenazi populations share."

    By contrast, scientists have not found a noteworthy amount of identical-by-descent DNA sharing between Ashkenazic Jews and the non-Greek Italians from northern Italy. A connection of that kind was one of the earlier hypotheses but it looks wrong now.
  197. @Daniel H
    >>So who’s more inbred, a Jew or a Muslim? And why did inbreeding work out so well for the Jews and so poorly for the Muslims?

    Good point, and the HBD people don't/can't explain this. Apparently, the entire Jewish Ashkanazi Jewish population is descended from a core group of approximately 2,000 individuals who originated in northern Italy in the 12th century. With such a small founding population, isn't a great deal of close kin breeding almost guaranteed? Yet, overall, this population doesn't seem to be adversely affected by this phenomenon (Tay Sachs, notwithstanding). But recently I was perusing stories and looking at photos of Yemeni Jews who have been evacuated from Yemen over the past 30 years (a small community that by necessity had to marry close kin). They don't look right. Something looks off. I wouldn't be surprised that they have low mean IQ. Anyway, I don't know anything about genetics or development biology.
  198. “intramarriage”

    Leave the poor bastard alone, Steve; his people only just arrived “a millennia” ago.

  199. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anon

    If a 100% Ashkenazi Jewish woman marries a gentile, the children are all Jewish. Even though they are only 50% Ashkenazi. And that would be true if one of the daughters married a gentile, the children would be only 25% Ashkenazi, but still Jewish. And so on.

    That’s why you can’t tell who’s Jewish by looking
     
    Note the genetic requirement. Its merely inclusionary instead of exclusionary.

    That is, Jewish group inclusion requires the presence of certain genetics instead of their exclusion - the difference of no difference.

    The Jewish racial definition is a slightly different racial self definition than that of Whites and yet it is still functional racial definition and identity to the point that Jews have a much higher risk of inbreeding disease than Whites.

    Jews are hating those who racially self-define differently. Yet, racial self definition is still at the core of Jewish identity. As I stated, its the difference of no difference. Jewish targeting of White racial self definition is not rooted in political principle but instead rooted in hate for the group that they have carved out their propaganda to specifically target.

    The Orthodox political core of Judaism rarely intermarries. Unrelated individuals in that group most often look genetically closer than do I and my siblings. It follows that I can tell who is Jewish 95% of the time. Your naXalt example is bullshit, Jews like to appeal to it, but it doesn't apply to 95% or more of the Jewish group. So GTFO of here with your utter nonsense. My Jewdar is well honed. 5% of the time I cannot tell, and yet when that individual ages most of the time their Jewish features will start to reveal once the babyfat falls off of their face.

    Jewish targeting of White racial self definition is not rooted in political principle but instead rooted in hate for the group that they have carved out their propaganda to specifically target.

    Why do Jews target the other group?

  200. @AndrewR
    Or just incompetent. It's the Guardian ferchrissake

    ‘Here is a Brief on the Jewish Mishnaic Scale of Lineages.

    Legitimate converts are not to be trusted for 22 generations (as you remark, essentially never)…’

    Speculation is this is one of the reasons Judaism lost out to its Christian offshoot in the war for converts in the Roman Empire.

    At least in theory, you convert to Christianity, and presto, you’re a genuine, fully admitted member of the church; in Judaism, you’re definitely not the equal of those Jews who can claim longer lineage.

    The other reason, obviously, is circumcision; adult males are going to be reluctant to undergo circumcision. Become a Christian and you don’t have to!

    • Replies: @Anonymous

    Speculation is this is one of the reasons Judaism lost out to its Christian offshoot in the war for converts in the Roman Empire.
     
    Were these rules in effect during that era or did they come later?

    The other reason, obviously, is circumcision; adult males are going to be reluctant to undergo circumcision. Become a Christian and you don’t have to!
     
    The rabbis could have found a way to waive that requirement or satisfy it in a symbolic way, had they wanted converts.
    , @Alden
    Kosher food too. Roast pork crab oysters rabbit cheese burgers Yum yum. I wonder, did kosher food stores charge 3 times more than regular food stores in Roman times like they do now?
    , @Desiderius

    At least in theory, you convert to Christianity, and presto, you’re a genuine, fully admitted member of the church; in Judaism, you’re definitely not the equal of those Jews who can claim longer lineage.
     
    Which is why the New Testament opens with tracing Jesus’ lineage back to Adam.
  201. @Jack D

    but the negative traits that inbreeding has associated with intelligence in Ashkenaz Jewish populations -the only Jewish populations demomstrating exceptionally high average IQs – may decrease Darwinian fitness in other settings.
     
    That's true - we know how unsuited Jews are for the modern world. They are like Amazonian Indians or aborigines - completely unable to cope with modernity. Once taken from their shteltls and confronted with novel situations or societies, they just fell to pieces.

    Good one

  202. @guest
    "for some reason I never understood a bad guy"

    Because "eugenics." Which is a dirty word among people who also advocate for a woman's right to murder her children to avoid stretchmarks.

    Without legal abortion this country would be about 25 percent black instead of 12 percent black. crime rate would be sky high due to the presence of so many black and Hispanic criminals. Our public schools would be even worse than they are now with so many retarded black and Hispanic thugs in them.

    Crime peaks about 15 to 40 years after a black Hispanic baby boom.

    Did you know that there were actually more abortions before abortion was legalized than after it was legalized? Of course not moron. Do you know why? Of course not

    How many White children have you brought into the world by the way?

    All these childless old codgers against abortion.

    I propose a new tax regulation. Every person who favors legal abortion gets a 50 percent deduction on all taxes including sales, property, vechicle registration all taxes.

    Every person against abortion pays 50 percent more on all taxes to support all the black and Hispanic criminals and welfare slugs you want born.

    Here’s some questions moron; in what year was abortion made first made illegal? in what country? In what year did the Pope declare abortion is murder and forbidden to Catholics ?

    • Replies: @AnotherDad

    Without legal abortion this country would be about 25 percent black instead of 12 percent black.
     
    I'm also of the opinion that the aborted children were probably not--on average--fellow citizens i miss having around.

    However, simple back of the envelope math shows that this 25% estimate is ridiculous.


    Did you know that there were actually more abortions before abortion was legalized than after it was legalized? Of course not moron. Do you know why? Of course not
     
    This is simply not true. We have no firm figure for abortion rates prior to legalization, but reasonable estimates are a few hundred thousand.

    A reasonable model of incentives would be that legal abortion would at least modestly increase unwanted pregnancies, as women/couples would be less careful because they have the abortion "backstop". And certainly increase abortions, due to improved safety and availabilty of the procedure.

    What we see in the figures is a tremendous immediate rise in legal abortions the first five years after Roe up to over a million--while live births stalled and dipped--but a continuing drift up for the next dozen years--while live births recovered and plateaued. This is consistent with legal abortion leading to somewhat sloppier sexual/birth-control practicies.

    But for your claim of more abortions before legalization, the actually smaller cohorts of fertile young women in the late 60s would have had to have been a bunch of lazy, incompetent, promiscuous sluts, to have generated pregnacies for both higher births (wanted and not) plus a million plus back alley abortions, despite knowing they had no legal abortion backstop and were risking their lives/health getting pregnant! And then young women would have had to keep going to back-alley abortionists in huge numbers (hundreds of thousands) for several years--even with legal abortion available--and only gradually switching to legal.

    There is, of course, zero evidence for either thing. Because ... your claim is false. The abortion rate pre-legalization was in fact a fraction of the post-Roe rate--again probably something in the neighborhood of a few hundred thousand, ramping up dramatically with legalization, which also increased the unwanted pregnancy rate.

    ~~~

    Finally, i'm confident you are not a "moron"--or you wouldn't be here reading Sailer.

    However, if you are going to run off on a fine rant calling other people "moron", it's best not to do it when you are posting two claims that are not only false but are *inconsistent with each other*. (Read both the claims i quote above and mull over how they could possibly both be true.)
    , @guest
    Wtf is the matter with you?
  203. @Desiderius
    Steve,

    https://www.the-american-interest.com/2018/05/24/atonement-as-activism/

    I believe this to be exactly down your alley.

    McWhorter means well, I guess, but he fundamentally misunderstands what’s going on with “wokeness” – which involves not a bit of self– hatred, and no real sense that they have anything to atone for.

  204. Anonymous[217] • Disclaimer says:
    @Colin Wright
    'Here is a Brief on the Jewish Mishnaic Scale of Lineages.

    Legitimate converts are not to be trusted for 22 generations (as you remark, essentially never)...'

    Speculation is this is one of the reasons Judaism lost out to its Christian offshoot in the war for converts in the Roman Empire.

    At least in theory, you convert to Christianity, and presto, you're a genuine, fully admitted member of the church; in Judaism, you're definitely not the equal of those Jews who can claim longer lineage.

    The other reason, obviously, is circumcision; adult males are going to be reluctant to undergo circumcision. Become a Christian and you don't have to!

    Speculation is this is one of the reasons Judaism lost out to its Christian offshoot in the war for converts in the Roman Empire.

    Were these rules in effect during that era or did they come later?

    The other reason, obviously, is circumcision; adult males are going to be reluctant to undergo circumcision. Become a Christian and you don’t have to!

    The rabbis could have found a way to waive that requirement or satisfy it in a symbolic way, had they wanted converts.

  205. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @Lot
    “overshadowed both his grandfathers and is to this day revered in Holland and England as the real founder of the industry which made his name and fortune. ”

    Who? The two giant companies whose HQ and management are split between Holland and England are Shell and Unilever.

    Shell was founded by Iraqi Jewish brothers, whose parents came to England sometime before their 1850s birth. One of them was made Viscount Bearsted and has many descendants who are a mix of mostly Anglican commercial families with a few AJs mixed in, resulting in his great great grandchildren having names like “Maximilian Bertie Thomas Waley-Cohen” an actual English six year old. His impressive cousin, pictured below with Kate Middleton, was the first amateur jockey to win the Cheltenham Gold Cup in 30 years and became a multimillionaire “independently” by starting a dental supply business.

    https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/03/19/article-0-0B3DB84600000578-32_634x519.jpg

    Unilever was the first big European soap and bath sundries company (the UK part) and margarine maker (Dutch part). I don’t see anything about Lever brothers being inbred. The Jurgens biography says one of the founders and his uncle married into the same family, but that is the extent of anything about inbreeding, if you can even count your aunt’s otherwise unrelated family.

    Uncle marriage is twice as bad as first cousin marriage, but if the background population frequency of it is low enough, the effect isn’t too terrible in isolated instances.

    Holland and Holland, however, are entirely English.

    https://www.hollandandholland.com/

  206. @Kevin Brook
    I forgot to mention the most damning evidence against Sand. He has been a proponent of the notion that Ashkenazic Jews substantially descend from the Khazars who lived in the far east of Europe and were a mix of Turkic and Caucasian peoples. Tatiana Tatarinova of the University of La Verne and her team of scientists recently compared Ashkenazic Jews' autosomal DNA to medieval Khazar bones but did not find any similarity between the two groups. She presented their findings on May 30, 2019 at the "Centenary of Human Population Genetics" conference in Moscow. This accords with the findings of Doron Behar's team back in 2013 which used modern Turkic peoples as proxies for Khazars. It's far past time for Sand to give it up, but he won't.

    Disclaimer: 20 years ago my views were closer to Sand's and Goldstein's, and both of them cited earlier editions of my book in their books.

    ‘I forgot to mention the most damning evidence against Sand. He has been a proponent of the notion that Ashkenazic Jews substantially descend from the Khazars…’

    I forget what exactly Sand claims vis-a-vis the Khazars, and I’m not up on what the latest back-and-forth is concerning the Khazars. As far as I know, all that’s known for certain is that the upper classes of Khazar society converted to Judaism.

    I’d make a few points. Demonstrating that Ashkenazim don’t share any significant DNA with some Khazars doesn’t demonstrate much. I imagine we could find some Danes I’m not related to — but I assure you. I have Danish ancestry.

    However, be that as it may. Also, Sand can claim whatever he chooses; nothing I have said is dependent on Sand’s status as a historical authority, but only on other evidence he has cited. Finally, and most importantly, demonstrating that the Jews didn’t come from Khazaria doesn’t prove that they did come from Palestine. I doubt if I have any Khazar genes either. It doesn’t follow that therefore I came from Palestine.

    • Replies: @Lot
    “Demonstrating that Ashkenazim don’t share any significant DNA with some Khazars doesn’t demonstrate much. ... Finally, and most importantly, demonstrating that the Jews didn’t come from Khazaria doesn’t prove that they did come from Palestine.“

    Add genomics to the many topics Colin Wright doesn’t understand but has strong opinions about.
  207. @Kevin Brook
    "I notice that you don’t rebut Sand’s actual arguments."

    Yes I did, I said direct comparisons of modern European Jews versus the "Levant_LBN_Roman" samples from the ancient Levant region (Israel/Lebanon/Syria) showed a 1/3rd match. Sand pretends that European Jews are entirely converted Europeans but that ignores this Levantine component that truly exists. Levantine DNA is easily distinguished from European DNA.

    "The probable Jewish population of Roman Palestine simply couldn’t have expanded enough quickly enough to account for the Jewish population of the Roman Empire. 100,000 cannot equal 2,000,000"

    I believe you are exaggerating the Jewish population of the Roman Empire. Also, the claim of Bar Hebraeus that 10% of the population of the empire was Jewish at the start of the common era is false because he misinterpreted an old Roman census.

    ‘I believe you are exaggerating the Jewish population of the Roman Empire. Also, the claim of Bar Hebraeus that 10% of the population of the empire was Jewish at the start of the common era is false because he misinterpreted an old Roman census.’

    It’s certainly true that all pre-modern statistics need to be treated with caution.

    However, in their early second-century revolts, the Jews were able to temporarily seize control of Libya, Cyprus, much of Egypt, and Roman Mesopotamia. That implies a very large population — certainly far more than could have plausibly emigrated from Palestine.

  208. @Mr McKenna

    “looks Jewish” is a common phrase, whereas “looks Christian” isn’t one.
     
    The hell you say!

    https://i.ibb.co/2jpWvft/White-American-Family-1950s.png

    Might be Mormons Universalists or Quakers.

    • Replies: @HammerJack
    Might be Lutherans! Might be Episcopalians!
  209. @Anon
    Here is a Brief on the Jewish Mishnaic Scale of Lineages.

    Legitimate converts are not to be trusted for 22 generations (as you remark, essentially never). Doctrinally, Judaism is a genetic group and no more than that:

    Maimonides on Judaism & the Jewish People (1991)
    Menachem Marc Kellner

    https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=6HlxxKP1AtAC&lpg=PA5&ots=fik19PoUQN&dq=jewish%20converts%20inferior&pg=PA5#v=onepage&q=%22Halevi%20meets%20the%22&f=false

    How do Jewish converts feel knowing "native" Jews consider them inferior & a hindrance to the messiahs arrival?

    "Halevi (12th century Jewish poet & "philosopher") meets the problem of conversion by arguing that converts are indeed not the equals of native Jews and that only after many generations, so it would seem, can their descendants be fully amalgamated into the Jewish people. To adopt a brilliant and amusing metaphor of Daniel J. Lasker's, just as IBM PC clones may run the same software as original IBM hardware, but are still not the real thing; so, too, converts may believe what native Jews believe, and act as they do (software), they are still not the same as native Jews (hardware)."
     

    Jewish Identity in Early Rabbinic Writings
    By Sacha Stern
    p. 94

    http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ekhqsS8GKo8C&lpg=PA92&dq=jewish%20converts%20inferior&pg=PA94#v=onepage&q=%22the%20Midrash%20remarks:%20%22do%20not%20trust%20the%20convert,%20even%20after%20the%2022nd%20generation22%20(according%20to%20another%20source,%20for%207%20generations%20a%20convert%20cannot%20be%20trusted%20not%20to%20have%20returned%20to%20his%20old%20ways).&f=false

    "the Midrash remarks: "do not trust the convert, even after the 22nd generation" (according to another source, for 7 generations a convert cannot be trusted not to
    have returned to his old ways).

     

    Jewish Identity in Early Rabbinic Writings
    By Sacha Stern
    p. 94

    http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ekhqsS8GKo8C&lpg=PA92&dq=jewish%20converts%20inferior&pg=PA94#v=onepage&q=%22converts%20are%20also%20a%20hindrance%20to%20the%20coming%20of%20the%20Messiah%22&f=false

    "converts are also a hindrance to the coming of the Messiah"
     

    Jewish Identity in Early Rabbinic Writings
    By Sacha Stern
    p. 94

    https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ekhqsS8GKo8C&lpg=PA92&dq=jewish%20converts%20inferior&pg=PA94#v=onepage&q=%22his%20tendency%20to%20lapse%20is%20considered%20a%20liability%20to%20Israel%2C%20which%20explains%20Rabbi%20Helbo's%20well-known%20saying%3A%20%22converts%20are%20as%20difficult%20to%20Israel%20as%20leprosy%22&f=false

    "... his tendency to lapse is considered a liability to Israel, which explains Rabbi Helbo's well-known saying: "converts are as difficult to Israel as leprosy". The Babylonian Talmud treats the converts with suspicion: it wonders whether their motives were indeed sincere, and why they waited so long to convert; it also suspects them of acting out of fear rather than out of love. If a convert is suspected of (transgressing) a single commandment, he must be suspected of (transgressing) the whole Torah."
     

    Jewish Identity in Early Rabbinic Writings
    By Sacha Stern
    p. 92

    https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ekhqsS8GKo8C&lpg=PA92&dq=jewish%20converts%20inferior&pg=PA92#v=onepage&q=%22In%20certain%20contexts%20the%20convert%20is%20distinguished%20from%20the%20Jewish-born%20as%20having%20inferior%20status.%22&f=false

    Jews listed in order of importance (most to least)

    "In certain contexts the convert is distinguished from the Jewish-born as having inferior status. In the liturgy, he cannot refer to the Patriarchs as "our forefathers". More importantly, his lineage is inferior to that of most Jewish-born, as according to the mishnaic scale of lineages (yohasin):

    1. Priest (cohen)
    2. Levite
    3. Israel (ordinary Jews)
    4. Impaired priest (descendent of a cohen who'd broken the marriage rules)
    5. Convert
    6. Freedman (former slave)
    5. Bastard
    6. Natin (Gibeonite) (Jews forbidden to marry ordinary Jews)
    7. Silent (of unknown fatherhood)
    8. Foundling (abandoned as a child)"
     

    ““the Midrash remarks: “do not trust the convert, even after the 22nd generation” (according to another source, for 7 generations a convert cannot be trusted not to
    have returned to his old ways).”

    Sounds like they were worried about what John Derbyshire calls absimilation.

  210. @Alden
    Rothschild girls sometimes really did marry blood, not by marriage uncles. In fact uncle blood niece marriage is still legal in Rhode Island because there was a big Jewish community there in Newport in colonial times. It was common enough with those colonial Jews that they got it written into the laws.

    I don’t know what the Rothschild’s did before old Mayer got rich but his 10 children all married and had children and all of the grandchildren married first cousins. The 10 Rothschild children didn’t marry into 10 other families . They married into just 7 other families.

    So some of the Rothschild grandchildren were double first cousins who married cousins and double first cousins. This continued for generations and when there were no male cousins some of the girls married blood uncles

    All this in breeding doesn’t seem to have harmed Rothschild brains health and looks at all.

    I have a friend whose parents are first cousins. They were farmers from a polish area where there weren’t many Jewish farmers. So they married first cousins for generations.

    He and one brother are lawyers. Other brother is an engineer. All normal. Best looking Jewish men I’ve ever seen. They look a lot like that actor Omar Sharif who played Dr. Zhivago.

    Maybe first cousin marriage isn’t so bad. Look what it did for the Rothschilds. And European royalty for 1500 years.

    In fact uncle blood niece marriage is still legal in Rhode Island…

    And presumably, uncle-nephew marriage since Obergefell.

    But only if Jews allow it.

    What a can of worms.

    • LOL: Dan Hayes
  211. @Anonymouse
    I am a great iSteve fan considering him to be perhaps the most prolific interesting commentator in the Internet cloud. The need to keep producing interesting thoughts day after day is a heavy task. No surprise that Steve reprises his historical preoccupations. I have never played a game of golf - aside miniature golf - although my retired brother-in-law plays frequently. Yet Steve's observations about the design and social history of American golf courses are entertaining. I am writing to share my feelings about another of his golden oldie subjects: the Jews. Although I am one, the real-world role of jews historically and in the present has a smaller share of my thoughts than those of Steve. Steve's treatment of the subject seems to me to be objective and scientific, unlike the run of articles on his host website. For which I am grateful, even in such cases as when he says nothing new about them (hard to do considering the enormous attention they have attracted). I am also grateful for the relative absence of jew haters in the comments here when compared to the number of those on his host website. I have always wondered where that comes from. A psychological explanation of that phenomenon among his countrymen is proposed by Sartre in the first half of his Réflexions sur la question juive. To my mind, it rings true to a certain extent but is not comprehensive.

    Thank God for Sailer’s moderating at whim.

  212. @Colin Wright
    'Here is a Brief on the Jewish Mishnaic Scale of Lineages.

    Legitimate converts are not to be trusted for 22 generations (as you remark, essentially never)...'

    Speculation is this is one of the reasons Judaism lost out to its Christian offshoot in the war for converts in the Roman Empire.

    At least in theory, you convert to Christianity, and presto, you're a genuine, fully admitted member of the church; in Judaism, you're definitely not the equal of those Jews who can claim longer lineage.

    The other reason, obviously, is circumcision; adult males are going to be reluctant to undergo circumcision. Become a Christian and you don't have to!

    Kosher food too. Roast pork crab oysters rabbit cheese burgers Yum yum. I wonder, did kosher food stores charge 3 times more than regular food stores in Roman times like they do now?

  213. @Kevin Brook
    Sephardic Jews from the northern parts of the former Ottoman Empire have a small amount of Spanish DNA but they are mostly a mix of Greek + Anatolian + Israelite + North African, so similar to Ashkenazic Jews.

    Sephardim and Ashkenazim share 87.2% of the same ancestors from about 1,500-2,000 years ago using nMonte models with a genetic distance of 0.8842. The components that are unique to Ashkenazim that Sephardim don't have include German, Slavic, and Han Chinese. Some German Jews have close to 0% Slavic and 0% Chinese DNA so they come out even closer to Sephardim than the average Ashkenazi from further east.

    Sephardic Jews from Bulgaria are noticeably mixed with Ashkenazic settlers who had moved south several centuries ago. Sephardic Jews from Turkey and Greece partially descend from pre-existing Jewish communities that existed in the area before Sephardim arrived. Moroccan Jews have varying degrees of Berber DNA - more Sephardic in the north and increasing Berber going south. Syrian Jews from Aleppo with their substantial Musta'arabi ancestry are far from pure Sephardim even though some of them call themselves Sephardim and can trace some lineages to Spain.

    What about the Sephardim who settled in the Netherlands after 1492? Some made their way to England after Cromwell.

    • Replies: @Kevin Brook
    Indeed, BB753. Also, some Sephardim of Amsterdam later moved east into Poland in the late 1600s and early 1700s. Joel S. Davidi Weisberger's article "Sephardim Real and Imagined" in The Philadelphia Jewish Voice on February 7, 2018 names 4 of them: Merari Belogrado, Nieto de H.H. Usiel, Mordehay Cohen, and Rahel Cuna, plus a convert to Judaism named Abraham Israel Guer. Some Sephardim intermarried with Ashkenazim and have descendants among the Ashkenazim to this day. In Ashkenazic lands some descendants of the Portuguese Jews were given the surnames "Portugeyz" or "Portugal" by the mid-1800s.

    I'm distantly related to a family from the Netherlands where Sephardim intermarried with Christian Dutch people.

    I've also been in contact with a descendant of the early Sephardic settlers of England. They've intermarried a lot with non-Sephardic Jews including Ashkenazic Jews and Baghdadi Jews, but they still proudly identify as a community of "Spanish and Portuguese Jews" and follow Sephardic rites.
  214. @Kevin Brook
    "I notice that you don’t rebut Sand’s actual arguments."

    Yes I did, I said direct comparisons of modern European Jews versus the "Levant_LBN_Roman" samples from the ancient Levant region (Israel/Lebanon/Syria) showed a 1/3rd match. Sand pretends that European Jews are entirely converted Europeans but that ignores this Levantine component that truly exists. Levantine DNA is easily distinguished from European DNA.

    "The probable Jewish population of Roman Palestine simply couldn’t have expanded enough quickly enough to account for the Jewish population of the Roman Empire. 100,000 cannot equal 2,000,000"

    I believe you are exaggerating the Jewish population of the Roman Empire. Also, the claim of Bar Hebraeus that 10% of the population of the empire was Jewish at the start of the common era is false because he misinterpreted an old Roman census.

    ‘Sand pretends that European Jews are entirely converted Europeans but that ignores this Levantine component that truly exists. Levantine DNA is easily distinguished from European DNA.’

    Well, that touches on something else. Proving that Jews have Levantine DNA isn’t the same as proving they’re from Palestine.

    80% of the population of the Roman Empire was in the East. Establishing that modern Jewry has DNA from the Eastern Mediterranean may demonstrate they are largely descended from the Jews of the Roman Empire — but that’s not the same as proving they’re from Palestine.

    Frankly, I find the whole thing obviously silly. For me, the epiphany came when Israel’s Minister of the Interior, Yishai, claimed that ‘Israel is for the white man’ — by which he meant not for Arabs.

    Well, Yishai was a Tunisian Jew. I went looking through photos of gentile Tunisians — and sure enough. In short order, I found a photo of Yishai’s long-lost twin brother. Netanyahu looks quite similar to various recent Polish gentile politicians. That Yemeni Jewish soldier who was filmed murdering a wounded suspect as he lay helpless at his feet looks just like…you guessed it.

    A gentile Yemeni. As a rule, Jews don’t look like Jews from other regions so much as they look like the gentiles of the various lands they come from.

    This isn’t very hard to accept if you understand ordinary human behavior. It’s only hard to accept if you cling to the obviously silly notion that today’s Jews are descended from the inhabitants of ancient Palestine.

    They’re not.

    • Replies: @Kevin Brook
    Colin Wright wrote: "That Yemeni Jewish soldier ... looks just like… A gentile Yemeni."

    I can believe that. Yemenite Jews have much more convert ancestry than Western Jews do.

    During the Himyarite kingdom days, a large number of southern Arabians converted to Judaism, and modern Yemenite Jews have less than 1/8th Levantine ancestry.
    , @Lot
    “It’s only hard to accept if you cling to the obviously silly notion that today’s Jews are descended from the inhabitants of ancient Palestine.

    They’re not.”

    Once again, only cow dung exits from Colin Wright’s mouth.

    In fact, Jews are closely related to Samaritans, and by far the closest on the paternal lines. They have lived in Israel continuously for at least 2500 years, and their ancient religion is closest to Judaism.

    https://rosenberglab.stanford.edu/papers/OefnerEtAl2013-HumBiol.pdf

    But Colin thinks he knows better than the authors of this analysis. Here’s where the first three authors work:

    “Institute of Functional Genomics, University of Regensburg, Regensburg, Germany.

    Center for Systems Biology, Harvard Medical School, Boston, MA.

    Stanford Genome Technology Center, Palo Alto, CA.”

    “Indeed, not only are the Y-chromosomes of the Jews and Samaritans more similar to each other than either is to the Palestinians’, the Y-chromosomes of the Samaritans show striking similarities to a very specific Y-chromosome most often associated with Jewish men. Although the Samaritan type is slightly different from the Jewish type, it is clear that the two share a common ancestor, probably within the last few thousand years.

    As a result, Shen and colleagues argue that the traditional hypothesis, that the Samaritans were transported into the Levant by the Assyrians and have no Jewish heritage, is largely incorrect. Rather, these Samaritan lineages are remnants of those few Jews who did not go into exile when the Assyrians conquered the northern kingdom of Israel in 721 BC. Those who remained in the Levant may have take non-Jewish wives, which would account for the genetic admixture on the female side. But according to the authors the Y-chromosome clearly shows that the Samaritans and the Jews share common ancestry dating to at least 2,500 years ago.”

    Another interesting finding from the paper, again contrary to Colin’s cow dung theory of mass conversion of non-Jewish Europeans, is that the ancient priestly Cohen Y chromosome, while most common in the Jews and Samaritans, was also found in small numbers in Italians, Turks, and the Baluch, a group in Iran and Pakistan that sometimes looks white. In other words, Jewish Cohen men spread out West to Italy, East into Iran, and North into Anatolia and assimilated into the Christian and Muslim populations.
    , @Lot
    “It’s only hard to accept if you cling to the obviously silly notion that today’s Jews are descended from the inhabitants of ancient Palestine.

    They’re not.”

    Once again, only cow dung exits from Colin Wright’s mouth.

    In fact, Jews are closely related to Samaritans, and by far the closest on the paternal lines. They have lived in Israel continuously for at least 2500 years, and their ancient religion is closest to Judaism.

    https://rosenberglab.stanford.edu/papers/OefnerEtAl2013-HumBiol.pdf

    But Colin thinks he knows better than the authors of this analysis. Here’s where the first three authors work:

    “Institute of Functional Genomics, University of Regensburg, Regensburg, Germany.

    Center for Systems Biology, Harvard Medical School, Boston, MA.

    Stanford Genome Technology Center, Palo Alto, CA.”

    “Indeed, not only are the Y-chromosomes of the Jews and Samaritans more similar to each other than either is to the Palestinians’, the Y-chromosomes of the Samaritans show striking similarities to a very specific Y-chromosome most often associated with Jewish men. Although the Samaritan type is slightly different from the Jewish type, it is clear that the two share a common ancestor, probably within the last few thousand years.

    As a result, Shen and colleagues argue that the traditional hypothesis, that the Samaritans were transported into the Levant by the Assyrians and have no Jewish heritage, is largely incorrect. Rather, these Samaritan lineages are remnants of those few Jews who did not go into exile when the Assyrians conquered the northern kingdom of Israel in 721 BC. Those who remained in the Levant may have take non-Jewish wives, which would account for the genetic admixture on the female side. But according to the authors the Y-chromosome clearly shows that the Samaritans and the Jews share common ancestry dating to at least 2,500 years ago.”

    Another interesting finding from the paper, again contrary to Colin’s cow dung theory of mass conversion of non-Jewish Europeans, is that the ancient priestly Cohen Y chromosome, while most common in the Jews and Samaritans, was also found in small numbers in Italians, Turks, and the Baluch, a group in Iran and Pakistan that sometimes looks white. In other words, Jewish Cohen men spread out West to Italy, East into Iran, and North into Anatolia and assimilated into the Christian and Muslim populations.
    , @Lot
    “It’s only hard to accept if you cling to the obviously silly notion that today’s Jews are descended from the inhabitants of ancient Palestine.

    They’re not.”

    Once again, only cow dung exits from Colin Wright’s mouth.

    In fact, Jews are closely related to Samaritans, and by far the closest on the paternal lines. They have lived in Israel continuously for at least 2500 years, and their ancient religion is closest to Judaism.

    https://rosenberglab.stanford.edu/papers/OefnerEtAl2013-HumBiol.pdf

    But Colin thinks he knows better than the authors of this analysis. Here’s where the first three authors work:

    “Institute of Functional Genomics, University of Regensburg, Regensburg, Germany.

    Center for Systems Biology, Harvard Medical School, Boston, MA.

    Stanford Genome Technology Center, Palo Alto, CA.”

    “Indeed, not only are the Y-chromosomes of the Jews and Samaritans more similar to each other than either is to the Palestinians’, the Y-chromosomes of the Samaritans show striking similarities to a very specific Y-chromosome most often associated with Jewish men. Although the Samaritan type is slightly different from the Jewish type, it is clear that the two share a common ancestor, probably within the last few thousand years.

    As a result, Shen and colleagues argue that the traditional hypothesis, that the Samaritans were transported into the Levant by the Assyrians and have no Jewish heritage, is largely incorrect. Rather, these Samaritan lineages are remnants of those few Jews who did not go into exile when the Assyrians conquered the northern kingdom of Israel in 721 BC. Those who remained in the Levant may have take non-Jewish wives, which would account for the genetic admixture on the female side. But according to the authors the Y-chromosome clearly shows that the Samaritans and the Jews share common ancestry dating to at least 2,500 years ago.”

    Another interesting finding from the paper, again contrary to Colin’s cow dung theory of mass conversion of non-Jewish Europeans, is that the ancient priestly Cohen Y chromosome, while most common in the Jews and Samaritans, was also found in small numbers in Italians, Turks, and the Baluch, a group in Iran and Pakistan that sometimes looks white. In other words, Jewish Cohen men spread out West to Italy, East into Iran, and North into Anatolia and assimilated into the Christian and Muslim populations.
  215. @AndrewR
    What an absurd claim. A few look kinda Arab but they're all Caucasians if not white. Not a single black person.

    What an absurd claim. A few look kinda Arab but they’re all Caucasians if not white. Not a single black person.

    Hey, give Dmitry a break – he comes at this from a Russian perspective. In the US, diversity mostly just means black and white. But when you walk around Moscow or Saint Petersburg, it’s all about shades of grey.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
    '...In the US, diversity mostly just means black and white...'

    You're a little behind the times there. Maybe in rural Arkansas, diversity still mostly just means black and white but elsewhere...

    To take an example, when I ran my moving business in California, aside from various flavors of American I employed the following: a Russian, a Bosnian, a Tanzanian, innumerable Mexicans, a Guatemalan, a Columbian, a white Brazilian, a black Brazilian, a Chilean, a Chinaman, a Mongolian, and an Azeri.

  216. @Desiderius
    Steve,

    https://www.the-american-interest.com/2018/05/24/atonement-as-activism/

    I believe this to be exactly down your alley.

    It’s sad that genuinely smart black men like McWhorter and Thomas Sowell, who have valuable things to say on real subjects, have to waste their time addressing race hustles.

    It was sad, though, to see the linguistically adept McWhorter write this atrocity:

    the good white person views themselves

    • Replies: @vinteuil

    It was sad, though, to see the linguistically adept McWhorter write this atrocity:

    the good white person views themselves...
     
    It's especially sad, since there's such an easy work-around, if you just can't bring yourself to write "himself":

    "good white people view themselves..."

    ...which suggests that he committed this solecism quite deliberately - presumably, to signal his virtue, in an essay which pretends to object to virtue signalling.

    Sigh.
  217. Anonymous[123] • Disclaimer says:
    @Colin Wright
    '...I don’t think that public spaces have anything to do with it. Japanese urban residential streets have no sidewalks...'

    ? My wife and I visited Japan in 2015. We stomped all over urban sidewalks: sidewalks in Kagoshima, and sidewalks in Kyoto. Sidewalks in Osaka, and sidewalks in Tokyo. Sidewalks here. Sidewalks there.

    What are you talking about?

    A265 is right, Wright. Yours is the difference between the tourist’s view and the resident’s view. Sure, there are sidewalks in certain areas, especially along main thoroughfares. But much of Tokyo and all of Japan is as A265 describes it.

    • Replies: @HammerJack
    They need to put their wires underground.
  218. @Anonymous

    There’s always been an Italy, as a geographical region. Though Italy as a mostly united nation or state has existed only intermittently
     
    There haven't always been "Italians." Even now, that is a dubious ethnic category in view of the diversity throughout the country.

    ‘There haven’t always been “Italians.” Even now, that is a dubious ethnic category in view of the diversity throughout the country.’

    That’d be especially true of Italy. There were Gauls and Greeks, then being the center of the Roman Empire would have brought in a lot of alien blood, then there were German tribes from the North, and then Greeks again, and then Arab invaders, and then Normans. Not to mention Frenchmen and Spaniards and Austrians of various types stomping around more recently. And the probable genetic effects of the Genoese and Venetian overseas empires. For example, I’m plowing through a samizdat text of Toaff’s Blood Passover. Well, we’ve got a Jew from Crete settling in Venice.

    Genetically, ‘an Italian’ has to be one of the hazier concepts out there.

  219. @Anon7
    If a 100% Ashkenazi Jewish woman marries a gentile, the children are all Jewish. Even though they are only 50% Ashkenazi. And that would be true if one of the daughters married a gentile, the children would be only 25% Ashkenazi, but still Jewish. And so on.

    That's why you can't tell who's Jewish by looking. I went out with a woman who identified as Jewish, and she looked quite Jewish, and by Jewish law was indeed Jewish. Except that she was adopted into a Jewish family, so who knows what her genetic heritage was. Her sisters, on the other hand, looked like blonde shiksas, because their Jewish father had married a gentile, and then had her convert to Judaism.

    Except that she was adopted into a Jewish family, so who knows what her genetic heritage was.

    From the few Jewish adoptees I know, I believe Jews are (were) very good about adopting the babies of fellow Jews who couldn’t raise them themselves so it’s likely your date was legitimately Jewish. I grew up in the northeast, went to a college with a large Jewish population, lived in the NYC metro area for a long period, and developed decent “Jewdar” – if someone looks Jewish to you then they likely are.

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
    This -dar stuff is intriguing. Personally, I'm lousy at it. Jewdar, gaydar.... I can't recognize Jews & gays, except in cases their looks & behavior is way too obvious.
  220. @Jus' Sayin'...
    "The Talmud endorsed marriages between uncles and nieces; although some early Jewish religious communities, such as the Sadducees, believed that such unions were prohibited by the Torah."

    "James Mayer de Rothschild, founder of the French branch of the Rothschild banking family, and his niece Betty Salomon von Rothschild (c. 1825)."

    source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avunculate_marriage

    I found it interesting, while perusing this to discover that Adolf Hitler was the issue of an avunculate marriage just as I was intrigued to discover that Hitler and Wittgenstein were schoolmates for a time.

    The woman running the Geneva branch of the Rothschilds, Ariane de Rothschild, isn’t even Jewish, let alone related to her husband by blood.

  221. @vinteuil

    What an absurd claim. A few look kinda Arab but they’re all Caucasians if not white. Not a single black person.
     
    Hey, give Dmitry a break - he comes at this from a Russian perspective. In the US, diversity mostly just means black and white. But when you walk around Moscow or Saint Petersburg, it's all about shades of grey.

    ‘…In the US, diversity mostly just means black and white…’

    You’re a little behind the times there. Maybe in rural Arkansas, diversity still mostly just means black and white but elsewhere…

    To take an example, when I ran my moving business in California, aside from various flavors of American I employed the following: a Russian, a Bosnian, a Tanzanian, innumerable Mexicans, a Guatemalan, a Columbian, a white Brazilian, a black Brazilian, a Chilean, a Chinaman, a Mongolian, and an Azeri.

  222. @Reg Cæsar
    It's sad that genuinely smart black men like McWhorter and Thomas Sowell, who have valuable things to say on real subjects, have to waste their time addressing race hustles.

    It was sad, though, to see the linguistically adept McWhorter write this atrocity:


    the good white person views themselves

    It was sad, though, to see the linguistically adept McWhorter write this atrocity:

    the good white person views themselves…

    It’s especially sad, since there’s such an easy work-around, if you just can’t bring yourself to write “himself”:

    “good white people view themselves…”

    …which suggests that he committed this solecism quite deliberately – presumably, to signal his virtue, in an essay which pretends to object to virtue signalling.

    Sigh.

  223. @Lot
    Re the last video, yes, they look awfully light featured compared to US AJs.

    The lightest Jews are the “Lithuanians” who actually extend into Latvia Belarus and Russia.

    The rate of myopia among those Russian-Jewish was exceptionally high. And since they are running around at camp, they’d probably not wear their glasses if their myopia was slight.

    Since this was a summer camp, the kids have had some sun exposure. Part of Jewdar is looking for a strong contrast between white skin and dark hair. But sun makes hair lighter and skin tanner or ruddier, reducing this contrast.

    Here’s another photo of Oscar. In Steve’s pic his curly hair and pale skin make him look very Jewish. With short hair and tanner skin he only looks vaguely so. (Just a guess, the pic below he’s younger and still living in sunny Australia, and in Steve’s he’s in cloudy England).

    https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/image/8942166-3x4-340x453.jpg

    Part of Jewdar is looking for a strong contrast between white skin and dark hair.

    That’s a weak indicator since other ethnicities have the pale skin/dark hair combo. Hair thickness and texture, e.g., “jewfro,” is more useful. I think the shape of mouth/lips is a better tip-off. Cheekbones are a factor, too, but the mouth is the best one.

  224. @Colin Wright
    'Here is a Brief on the Jewish Mishnaic Scale of Lineages.

    Legitimate converts are not to be trusted for 22 generations (as you remark, essentially never)...'

    Speculation is this is one of the reasons Judaism lost out to its Christian offshoot in the war for converts in the Roman Empire.

    At least in theory, you convert to Christianity, and presto, you're a genuine, fully admitted member of the church; in Judaism, you're definitely not the equal of those Jews who can claim longer lineage.

    The other reason, obviously, is circumcision; adult males are going to be reluctant to undergo circumcision. Become a Christian and you don't have to!

    At least in theory, you convert to Christianity, and presto, you’re a genuine, fully admitted member of the church; in Judaism, you’re definitely not the equal of those Jews who can claim longer lineage.

    Which is why the New Testament opens with tracing Jesus’ lineage back to Adam.

    • Replies: @Logan
    At least in theory, you convert to Christianity, and presto, you’re a genuine, fully admitted member of the church; in Judaism, you’re definitely not the equal of those Jews who can claim longer lineage.

    Is that true in theory, or just in practice?
    , @Neil Templeton
    On the maternal side. His Y chromosome DNA came from God.
  225. Anon[217] • Disclaimer says:
    @Kevin Brook
    Western Jews including the Jews of Italy, Poland, Greece, and Spain are not so much genetically Italian as was thought ten years ago, but moreso Greek, similar to modern inhabitants of Crete and Sicily. In the olden days, southern Italy (called "Magna Graecia") was already heavily of Greek origin, and Western Jews have significant genetic sharing with Greeks and Southern Italians but not much with Northern Italians and only moderate overlap with Central Italians.

    mtDNA H47 was found in ancient Rome but also in Armenia and the Levant. Other than H47, none of the mtDNA lineages among ancient Roman samples match Ashkenazic mtDNA lineages, so far.

    It would also be inaccurate to describe Jews, or Levantines generally, as genetically half-"Arab", even though some Western Jewish genetic lines here and there (like mtDNA R0a2m) were ultimately Arabian. I don't consider Lebanese people to be true Arabs, and genetically they aren't very Arabian.

    Greek Romaniote Jews are approximately 40.6% Levantine, Sephardic Jews are approximately 38.2% Levantine, and Ashkenazic Jews are approximately 35% Levantine, on average, when we use the ancient samples Levant_LBN_Roman as a basis of comparison. The Ashkenazic gene pool got diluted in the past millennia from occasional intermarriage with Germans and Poles.

    The article in The Guardian is problematic due to its leftist ideological biases and for taking Professor Shlomo Sand seriously. According to his April 14, 2019 interview with Mediapart.fr, Sand is currently writing a French novel that argues against the notion of genetic Jewishness. He is still in denial of the significant indigenous roots of Western Jews in Israel.

    I'm also disappointed by David B. Goldstein's denial of the use of DNA testing to confirm ethnic Jewish heritage and transform understanding of identity.

    The article's examples given of confirming Western Jewish ancestors for ambiguous Israeli immigrants from Russia are mtDNA tests (based on the 4 most common Ashkenazic mtDNA lines) and genetic disease tests. Neither of those is ideal; my method of confirming autosomal DNA segments of Mediterranean character shared with Jews through triangulation and phasing is the most reliable method. Let's say a particular DNA segment has the following matches to it: a Sicilian, a Spaniard, 2 Peruvians, 1 Jew from Turkey, and 15 Ashkenazic Jews. I've seen many matchups like that over the years. What can we say about the ancestor of that segment? That's right, it was a Sephardic ancestor with 99% certainty and only about a 1% chance of being an ethnic Spanish ancestor. Genetic evidence doesn't usually automatically confer citizenship in Israel or Spain nor membership in a synagogue but it's knowledge many people are seeking.

    I also dislike this article's attacks on Greeks and Northwestern Europeans who express interest in their distant ancestors and promote their indigenous status within Europe. At least, in this case, the writer didn't have a double standard for Jews versus Christians in that regard. But he got it wrong in both cases.

    It would also be inaccurate to describe Jews, or Levantines generally, as genetically half-“Arab”, even though some Western Jewish genetic lines here and there (like mtDNA R0a2m) were ultimately Arabian. I don’t consider Lebanese people to be true Arabs, and genetically they aren’t very Arabian.

    How closely related are “Levantines” to Arabs?

    How closely related to Arabs is the non-Romaniote Greek half of Jews?

  226. Anonymous[344] • Disclaimer says:

    And some of the Russian newcomers maybe aren’t Jewish through matrilineal descent. Ariel Sharon wanted to import a lot of voters who would identify with Ariel Sharon, and it helped make him Prime Minister of Israel.

    Well Sharon was the son of a Subbotnik mother, so maybe you’re more right than you realize here.

  227. @AnotherDad

    But still, there was something disconcerting about our Jewishness being “confirmed” by a biological test. After all, the reason my grandparents had to leave the towns and villages of their ancestors was because of ethno-nationalism emboldened by a racialized conception of Jewishness as something that exists “in the blood”.
     
    It's always weird to encounter this tunnel of funhouse mirrors that is the Jewish self-conception:

    -- People who married freely with each other in their local area, building and sharing common language, religion, norms and culture (and paving the way for the nation state and eventually representative government) … "ethno-nationalists"! evil people!

    -- People who moved into other peoples' lands but refused to adopt their language, religion, norms, culture and merge with them into a common people, but cultivated an intense outsider hostility to keep themselves endogamously, culturally and religiously distinct--a separate non-conforming tribe … us! the good people!

    ~~~

    Hey, some sort of credit for the sheer assholery involved to "keep tribalism alive!" for 1000+ years. It's a knock on us Euro-gentiles that Jews were allowed to live amongst us. Despite efforts of several foresighted rulers to kick the Jews out and unifty and strengthen their nations, there was always some asshole ruler willing to sell out his own people's long term interest for a few shekels.

    Still from a historical perspective there's no question who the "good people" were. It isn't the people dragging their petty tribalism down through the ages and foisting it on people building modern nations.

    Despite efforts of several foresighted rulers to kick the Jews out and unify and strengthen their nations, there was always some asshole ruler willing to sell out his own people’s long term interest for a few shekels.

    AD, when you start suggesting that “kick the Jews out” is wise policy, you lose me.

    Sorry – this is totally anecdotal – but I’m currently in Budapest, Hungary, attending the “Budapest Wagner Days” festival, centered around a couple of performances of the single greatest monument of Western music: Wagner’s Der Ring des Nibelungen. It’s all the brainchild of Ádám Fischer – and dammit if he isn’t the finest Wagner interpreter ever. (And I know them all).

    • Replies: @Old Palo Altan
    Fischer, a Jew, wrote the following in 2011:

    'A lot of the attention has focused on the new law but the problems run far deeper. Even more worrying are changes to the national constitution that are being drafted and the rise of anti-Semitism, homophobia and xenophobia in Hungarian society.'

    What's he even doing in Budapest, much less conducting what you rightly term the single greatest monument of Western music?

    Perhaps more seriously: a (fairly) detailed justification of your view of his talent would be appreciated.

    , @AnotherDad

    AD, when you start suggesting that “kick the Jews out” is wise policy, you lose me.
     
    Vinteuil, what if i said "gypsies" instead? Would that work for you?

    Let me suggest that maybe you--and most people--have not thought about this very clearly. Post-holocaust people are heavily conditioned not to think critically about the actual situation--a tribal people maintaining themselves amidst open nationally integrating peoples. (Rather it's gentiles bad! nationalists bad! Jews, poor innocent victims, good!)


    I suggest--if you want your race and culture, the West, to survive--that you start thinking about such things critically.

    Here's some questions\ideas to ponder:

    -- Was the detribalizing of the West a good thing? Would we be better off if we had Gaels and Picts and Gauls and Angles and Saxons and Danes and Goths and Visgoths and Huns, etc. etc. all maintaining themselves as separate tribes ... like the Jews and Gypsies?

    -- England and France did expel their Jews ... and went only to develop their own native commercial classes, strong national identities and become the leading powers in Europe.

    -- Which looks like it will be a more promising place in the future, China, 90% Han Chinese or India with it's 40,000 separate Jati (some of which are very sharp, probably with higher average IQ than the Han)?

    -- Would China be better off if it was 100% Han? Does that 10% non-Han minority make China better ... or will just be a pain in the ass?

    -- Japan ... from the working class to the elite pretty much entirely composed of Japanese. Is it suffering for that? Or prospering?

    -- Is America better off from the diversity from our "legacy of slavery"? Or would we be better off if we'd never had slavery and imported a separate tribe?

    -- Was Sweden better off as boring "ethno-nationalist" 99% Swedish Sweden of say 1965, or now enriched with separate tribes?

    And directly on point:

    -- Would France be better off "kicking out the muslims"--i.e. telling them to give up Islam or leave (essentially my suggestion for what our ancestors should have done to solve Jewish tribalism)--or continuing on its current path? Which option would result in a happier France 100 years from now?

    ~

    I don't think the answers here are in any doubt.

    That de-tribalized, integrative, marry-the-girl-next-door (or next town), one-people nations are so far, far superior--in development, freedom, prosperity, self-government, stability and pretty much any other good thing--to multi-tribal states (i.e. empires) seems to me one of the more blantantly obvious historical *facts*. History has settled this dispute so thoroughly it's not a even a dispute among serious people.

    It's just not a fact that certain people want you thinking about.
  228. Lot says:
    @Colin Wright
    'I forgot to mention the most damning evidence against Sand. He has been a proponent of the notion that Ashkenazic Jews substantially descend from the Khazars...'

    I forget what exactly Sand claims vis-a-vis the Khazars, and I'm not up on what the latest back-and-forth is concerning the Khazars. As far as I know, all that's known for certain is that the upper classes of Khazar society converted to Judaism.

    I'd make a few points. Demonstrating that Ashkenazim don't share any significant DNA with some Khazars doesn't demonstrate much. I imagine we could find some Danes I'm not related to -- but I assure you. I have Danish ancestry.

    However, be that as it may. Also, Sand can claim whatever he chooses; nothing I have said is dependent on Sand's status as a historical authority, but only on other evidence he has cited. Finally, and most importantly, demonstrating that the Jews didn't come from Khazaria doesn't prove that they did come from Palestine. I doubt if I have any Khazar genes either. It doesn't follow that therefore I came from Palestine.

    “Demonstrating that Ashkenazim don’t share any significant DNA with some Khazars doesn’t demonstrate much. … Finally, and most importantly, demonstrating that the Jews didn’t come from Khazaria doesn’t prove that they did come from Palestine.“

    Add genomics to the many topics Colin Wright doesn’t understand but has strong opinions about.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
    '“Demonstrating that Ashkenazim don’t share any significant DNA with some Khazars doesn’t demonstrate much. … Finally, and most importantly, demonstrating that the Jews didn’t come from Khazaria doesn’t prove that they did come from Palestine.“

    Add genomics to the many topics Colin Wright doesn’t understand but has strong opinions about.'

    Ah. So demonstrating that the Jews didn't come from Khazaria does demonstrate that they came from Palestine.

    I see.
    , @Jack D
    Actually this whole thread demonstrates that people here are just full of strong opinions about Jews (a crowd favorite topic - any post involving Jews gets twice as many comments as non-Jew related comments) and most of those opinions bear little or no resemblance to reality.
  229. @Alden
    Without legal abortion this country would be about 25 percent black instead of 12 percent black. crime rate would be sky high due to the presence of so many black and Hispanic criminals. Our public schools would be even worse than they are now with so many retarded black and Hispanic thugs in them.

    Crime peaks about 15 to 40 years after a black Hispanic baby boom.

    Did you know that there were actually more abortions before abortion was legalized than after it was legalized? Of course not moron. Do you know why? Of course not

    How many White children have you brought into the world by the way?

    All these childless old codgers against abortion.

    I propose a new tax regulation. Every person who favors legal abortion gets a 50 percent deduction on all taxes including sales, property, vechicle registration all taxes.

    Every person against abortion pays 50 percent more on all taxes to support all the black and Hispanic criminals and welfare slugs you want born.

    Here’s some questions moron; in what year was abortion made first made illegal? in what country? In what year did the Pope declare abortion is murder and forbidden to Catholics ?

    Without legal abortion this country would be about 25 percent black instead of 12 percent black.

    I’m also of the opinion that the aborted children were probably not–on average–fellow citizens i miss having around.

    However, simple back of the envelope math shows that this 25% estimate is ridiculous.

    Did you know that there were actually more abortions before abortion was legalized than after it was legalized? Of course not moron. Do you know why? Of course not

    This is simply not true. We have no firm figure for abortion rates prior to legalization, but reasonable estimates are a few hundred thousand.

    A reasonable model of incentives would be that legal abortion would at least modestly increase unwanted pregnancies, as women/couples would be less careful because they have the abortion “backstop”. And certainly increase abortions, due to improved safety and availabilty of the procedure.

    What we see in the figures is a tremendous immediate rise in legal abortions the first five years after Roe up to over a million–while live births stalled and dipped–but a continuing drift up for the next dozen years–while live births recovered and plateaued. This is consistent with legal abortion leading to somewhat sloppier sexual/birth-control practicies.

    But for your claim of more abortions before legalization, the actually smaller cohorts of fertile young women in the late 60s would have had to have been a bunch of lazy, incompetent, promiscuous sluts, to have generated pregnacies for both higher births (wanted and not) plus a million plus back alley abortions, despite knowing they had no legal abortion backstop and were risking their lives/health getting pregnant! And then young women would have had to keep going to back-alley abortionists in huge numbers (hundreds of thousands) for several years–even with legal abortion available–and only gradually switching to legal.

    There is, of course, zero evidence for either thing. Because … your claim is false. The abortion rate pre-legalization was in fact a fraction of the post-Roe rate–again probably something in the neighborhood of a few hundred thousand, ramping up dramatically with legalization, which also increased the unwanted pregnancy rate.

    ~~~

    Finally, i’m confident you are not a “moron”–or you wouldn’t be here reading Sailer.

    However, if you are going to run off on a fine rant calling other people “moron”, it’s best not to do it when you are posting two claims that are not only false but are *inconsistent with each other*. (Read both the claims i quote above and mull over how they could possibly both be true.)

  230. @Anon

    and became a multimillionaire “independently” by starting a dental supply business.
     
    How do the Jews do it, Lot? Again and again this extraordinary success in business. Who knew that Shell, too, was founded by Jews? Another example.

    Only one half of what we know today as Shell was founded by Jews (the Samuels) – the English part. The Dutch half was founded by three men, all of whom are in fact relations of mine, and none of whom were Jewish. A son of one of them was actually an important collaborator with the Germans during their occupation of the Netherlands – he spent the final 25 years of his life in Switzerland.

    Note that even Lot wrote “independently”. He gets the joke.

  231. Anon[265] • Disclaimer says:
    @Dmitry
    I can often identify Jews (for example, Jewish celebrities), without prior knowledge.

    However, pure Jewish races, themselves are 3-4 different races even in Russia (in Israel, there are dozens of other Jewish races, most are dark brown, and some even black).


    -

    For example, in Russia - Bukharan Jews are brown (girl on left) and look the same as Muslim nationalities of their home region. While Ashkenazi Jews (on right this is Jewish oligarch Roman Abramovich) can be appear from white to brown.

    https://www.instagram.com/p/p8xW4iwikq

    ^ It's two different Jewish races.


    While Armenian Jews, look the same as Armenian Christian population to my eyes: On right is Armenian Christian girl and on left is an Armenian Jewess. Both Armenian Christians and Armenian Jews - it looks externally like the same race.

    https://www.instagram.com/p/BJOWjBAgs3J/

    -

    While secular modern Ashkenazi Jews in Russian, intermarried and adopt to their host area. If you look at the secular Jewish youth camps in Siberia nowadays - they mostly don't look like different race anymore (much of the Ashkenazi population in Russia, has been partially swallowed)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rr5r2JWqOpY

    The Milana Pich photo shows strong signs of selfie auto filtering, eye enlargment, nose, mouth, and chin reduction, skin smoothing.

    We’ve entered a period where future generations are going to wonder what people really looked like, similar to the powdered wig period in Europe where all paintings of people show them with giant wigs. What did Samuel Pepys really look like?

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Samuel Pepys, by the way, was a totally awesome guy who, beside keeping his famous diary, was highly important in the professionalisation of the Royal Navy. Before Pepys, the English crown typically built ships at time of war and let them fall apart in peacetime. But Pepys was crucial in the Royal Navy becoming a standing institution with high standards of professionalism. For example, "Star Trek's" Captain James Kirk of the Enterprise is based on Captain James Cook of the Endeavour, but Pepys was, more or than anybody else, The Guy who made sure, two or three generations earlier, that the Royal Navy was on the lookout for talent like Cook.
    , @Jack D
    Not to mention deep fakes which will make it impossible to believe video. "I have it on film" will become meaningless as evidence of reality.
  232. @Lot
    “overshadowed both his grandfathers and is to this day revered in Holland and England as the real founder of the industry which made his name and fortune. ”

    Who? The two giant companies whose HQ and management are split between Holland and England are Shell and Unilever.

    Shell was founded by Iraqi Jewish brothers, whose parents came to England sometime before their 1850s birth. One of them was made Viscount Bearsted and has many descendants who are a mix of mostly Anglican commercial families with a few AJs mixed in, resulting in his great great grandchildren having names like “Maximilian Bertie Thomas Waley-Cohen” an actual English six year old. His impressive cousin, pictured below with Kate Middleton, was the first amateur jockey to win the Cheltenham Gold Cup in 30 years and became a multimillionaire “independently” by starting a dental supply business.

    https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/03/19/article-0-0B3DB84600000578-32_634x519.jpg

    Unilever was the first big European soap and bath sundries company (the UK part) and margarine maker (Dutch part). I don’t see anything about Lever brothers being inbred. The Jurgens biography says one of the founders and his uncle married into the same family, but that is the extent of anything about inbreeding, if you can even count your aunt’s otherwise unrelated family.

    Uncle marriage is twice as bad as first cousin marriage, but if the background population frequency of it is low enough, the effect isn’t too terrible in isolated instances.

    There are (or were) other big Anglo-Dutch companies, but I won’t mention which – like all of us, I like my anonymity.

    As for Shell (as I remark in a reply to a reply to you), it was only half Jewish in origin. The other, Dutch, half was so proudly Aryan that a son of one of the founders was a leading collaborator during World War II. You can see him in a fascinating Youtube clip of Himmler’s visit to the Hague in 1942, but again, I won’t say exactly where.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    Deterding was a known Nazi sympathizer but he died in 1939. He got a big Nazi sendoff at his funeral (which was held at his estate in Germany). Hitler sent a wreath:

    https://i2.wp.com/royaldutchshellplc.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/Screen-Shot-2016-10-27-at-15.36.13.jpg


    https://i1.wp.com/royaldutchshellplc.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/Screen-Shot-2016-10-27-at-15.41.33.jpg

    This web page has lots about the Shell collaboration with the Nazis:

    https://royaldutchshellplc.com/2016/10/01/royal-dutch-shell-and-the-nazis/

  233. @Anon
    But of course this is not a trick which bears repetition. In another branch there were successive first cousin marriages over three generations: we’ll say that the resultant children were odd, and leave it at that.
    ———-

    Did they insist on driving Astons instead of Bentleys or some such barbarity?

    What’s an Aston?

    • Replies: @Alec Leamas

    What’s an Aston?
     
    An Aston-Martin, a luxury sportscar of British Origin. James Bond drove one for a while.
  234. @Anon
    The Milana Pich photo shows strong signs of selfie auto filtering, eye enlargment, nose, mouth, and chin reduction, skin smoothing.

    We've entered a period where future generations are going to wonder what people really looked like, similar to the powdered wig period in Europe where all paintings of people show them with giant wigs. What did Samuel Pepys really look like?

    Samuel Pepys, by the way, was a totally awesome guy who, beside keeping his famous diary, was highly important in the professionalisation of the Royal Navy. Before Pepys, the English crown typically built ships at time of war and let them fall apart in peacetime. But Pepys was crucial in the Royal Navy becoming a standing institution with high standards of professionalism. For example, “Star Trek’s” Captain James Kirk of the Enterprise is based on Captain James Cook of the Endeavour, but Pepys was, more or than anybody else, The Guy who made sure, two or three generations earlier, that the Royal Navy was on the lookout for talent like Cook.

    • Agree: Logan
    • Replies: @Not Raul
    According to his diary, Pepys also contributed to the British gene pool. He’s one of the main heroes of a certain scholar.
  235. @vinteuil

    Despite efforts of several foresighted rulers to kick the Jews out and unify and strengthen their nations, there was always some asshole ruler willing to sell out his own people’s long term interest for a few shekels.
     
    AD, when you start suggesting that "kick the Jews out" is wise policy, you lose me.

    Sorry - this is totally anecdotal - but I'm currently in Budapest, Hungary, attending the "Budapest Wagner Days" festival, centered around a couple of performances of the single greatest monument of Western music: Wagner's Der Ring des Nibelungen. It's all the brainchild of Ádám Fischer - and dammit if he isn't the finest Wagner interpreter ever. (And I know them all).

    Fischer, a Jew, wrote the following in 2011:

    ‘A lot of the attention has focused on the new law but the problems run far deeper. Even more worrying are changes to the national constitution that are being drafted and the rise of anti-Semitism, homophobia and xenophobia in Hungarian society.’

    What’s he even doing in Budapest, much less conducting what you rightly term the single greatest monument of Western music?

    Perhaps more seriously: a (fairly) detailed justification of your view of his talent would be appreciated.

    • Replies: @vinteuil

    Fischer, a Jew, wrote the following in 2011...
     
    Well, yeah - he talks too much. At least, he used to.

    But Götterdämmerung begins in a couple of hours, so I must go now.
    , @Lot
    “What’s he even doing in Budapest”

    Hopefully eating crow as he is welcomed into one of Europe’s great cities, and capital to perhaps its greatest current leader* and least demoralized people.

    There’s one other contender at the moment:

    https://www.ilprimatonazionale.it/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Orban-Salvini.jpg
    , @vinteuil
    OK, it's another day, & I'm more or less recovered.

    Just bought my tix for next year's Ring cycle, 6/18-21, plus Meistersinger on 6/16.

    If you check out MUPA's website, you'll find that tix for next year are already scarce.

    There's a reason for that - and the reason is Ádám Fischer.

    "...a (fairly) detailed justification of your view of his talent would be appreciated..."

    Well, what can I say? How can I describe what he did with the exchanges between Siegmund & Sieglinde in Act I of Die Walkure, or Siegfried & Mime in Act II of Siegfried, except to say that it was really, really good, and you should have been there?

    Somehow, he always strikes the perfect balance between beauty & power, lyricism & strength. And he has turned the Hungarian Radio Symphony Orchestra into a single instrument that sounds like what the Vienna Philharmonic ought to sound like.
  236. @BB753
    What about the Sephardim who settled in the Netherlands after 1492? Some made their way to England after Cromwell.

    Indeed, BB753. Also, some Sephardim of Amsterdam later moved east into Poland in the late 1600s and early 1700s. Joel S. Davidi Weisberger’s article “Sephardim Real and Imagined” in The Philadelphia Jewish Voice on February 7, 2018 names 4 of them: Merari Belogrado, Nieto de H.H. Usiel, Mordehay Cohen, and Rahel Cuna, plus a convert to Judaism named Abraham Israel Guer. Some Sephardim intermarried with Ashkenazim and have descendants among the Ashkenazim to this day. In Ashkenazic lands some descendants of the Portuguese Jews were given the surnames “Portugeyz” or “Portugal” by the mid-1800s.

    I’m distantly related to a family from the Netherlands where Sephardim intermarried with Christian Dutch people.

    I’ve also been in contact with a descendant of the early Sephardic settlers of England. They’ve intermarried a lot with non-Sephardic Jews including Ashkenazic Jews and Baghdadi Jews, but they still proudly identify as a community of “Spanish and Portuguese Jews” and follow Sephardic rites.

    • Replies: @Old Palo Altan
    Teixeira de Mattos maybe?
    , @BB753
    Thanks for the info! I was also curious about the genetics of those early Sephardim who left Iberia in the the XV th century.
    , @Lot
    “I’m distantly related to a family from the Netherlands where Sephardim intermarried with Christian Dutch people.”

    Jews where a quite high percentage of the Dutch population at their peak. More than 10% of Amsterdam’s population in 1830. The population share declined a fair amount by 1900 in part because of intermarriage.

    So I’d expect the share of Christian Dutchmen who are >1% Jewish to be high. The Nazi census that asked about the number of Jewish grandparents showed a fairly high intermarriage rate, though of course low by modern US standards.
  237. @Alden
    Rothschild girls sometimes really did marry blood, not by marriage uncles. In fact uncle blood niece marriage is still legal in Rhode Island because there was a big Jewish community there in Newport in colonial times. It was common enough with those colonial Jews that they got it written into the laws.

    I don’t know what the Rothschild’s did before old Mayer got rich but his 10 children all married and had children and all of the grandchildren married first cousins. The 10 Rothschild children didn’t marry into 10 other families . They married into just 7 other families.

    So some of the Rothschild grandchildren were double first cousins who married cousins and double first cousins. This continued for generations and when there were no male cousins some of the girls married blood uncles

    All this in breeding doesn’t seem to have harmed Rothschild brains health and looks at all.

    I have a friend whose parents are first cousins. They were farmers from a polish area where there weren’t many Jewish farmers. So they married first cousins for generations.

    He and one brother are lawyers. Other brother is an engineer. All normal. Best looking Jewish men I’ve ever seen. They look a lot like that actor Omar Sharif who played Dr. Zhivago.

    Maybe first cousin marriage isn’t so bad. Look what it did for the Rothschilds. And European royalty for 1500 years.

    Maybe first cousin marriage isn’t so bad. Look what it did for the Rothschilds. And European royalty for 1500 years.

    Not so sure. It virtually destroyed Habsburgs.

  238. @AnonAnon

    Except that she was adopted into a Jewish family, so who knows what her genetic heritage was.
     
    From the few Jewish adoptees I know, I believe Jews are (were) very good about adopting the babies of fellow Jews who couldn’t raise them themselves so it’s likely your date was legitimately Jewish. I grew up in the northeast, went to a college with a large Jewish population, lived in the NYC metro area for a long period, and developed decent “Jewdar” - if someone looks Jewish to you then they likely are.

    This -dar stuff is intriguing. Personally, I’m lousy at it. Jewdar, gaydar…. I can’t recognize Jews & gays, except in cases their looks & behavior is way too obvious.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
    'This -dar stuff is intriguing. Personally, I’m lousy at it. Jewdar, gaydar…. I can’t recognize Jews & gays, except in cases their looks & behavior is way too obvious.'

    Gays I pick up on. Jews, no. It's odd, because I've spent much of my life in an environment that was effectively at least a quarter Jewish. It's just that until I became involved in the Israel issue, whether someone was Jewish or not simply wasn't significant to me. They might as well have told they were Lutherans.

    A lot of Americans are still that way. Back in 2016 an interlocutor from North Carolina expressed surprise when I mentioned that Bernie Sanders was Jewish. North Carolina wasn't just being politically correct, either. He's perfectly capable of being spectacularly politically incorrect if he feels like it.

    Maybe now I'd be different. Israel has changed things.

  239. @Dmitry
    I can often identify Jews (for example, Jewish celebrities), without prior knowledge.

    However, pure Jewish races, themselves are 3-4 different races even in Russia (in Israel, there are dozens of other Jewish races, most are dark brown, and some even black).


    -

    For example, in Russia - Bukharan Jews are brown (girl on left) and look the same as Muslim nationalities of their home region. While Ashkenazi Jews (on right this is Jewish oligarch Roman Abramovich) can be appear from white to brown.

    https://www.instagram.com/p/p8xW4iwikq

    ^ It's two different Jewish races.


    While Armenian Jews, look the same as Armenian Christian population to my eyes: On right is Armenian Christian girl and on left is an Armenian Jewess. Both Armenian Christians and Armenian Jews - it looks externally like the same race.

    https://www.instagram.com/p/BJOWjBAgs3J/

    -

    While secular modern Ashkenazi Jews in Russian, intermarried and adopt to their host area. If you look at the secular Jewish youth camps in Siberia nowadays - they mostly don't look like different race anymore (much of the Ashkenazi population in Russia, has been partially swallowed)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rr5r2JWqOpY

    If you look at the secular Jewish youth camps in Siberia nowadays

    Ahahah, sorry, but I had to laugh (historical associations)….

  240. @Colin Wright
    Palestine in 1880 had a population of 325,000. Although it's not apparent from our perspective, there had actually been quite a few advances from Roman times to the nineteenth century in agriculture -- but have 300,000. There were three hundred thousand inhabitants of Palestine in the year 0.

    We know not all of these were Jews -- Herod built temples for Jews, and he built temples for worshippers of Baal. He ruled a state that was not solely Jewish. There were Jews, there were Baal worshippers, there were Greeks. As to the peasantry in the countryside, who knows?

    But have 200,000 Jews in Roman Palestine. It's improbable, but okay.

    Now, we know many never left. There was a Palestinian Talmud. When the Persians conquered Palestine in the Seventh Century, a Jewish puppet state appeared. Obviously, many Jews were still in Palestine.

    So a hundred thousand emigrated? That would seem to be a generous figure. Necessarily, most of the millions of Jews in the Roman Empire -- and by extension, most of the Jews in the world today -- did not descend from inhabitants of Palestine.

    There are photos of Palestine from the late 19th century. It looks like a sparsely populated wasteland. Doesn’t look like it was at the forefront of advanced agriculture.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
    'There are photos of Palestine from the late 19th century. It looks like a sparsely populated wasteland. Doesn’t look like it was at the forefront of advanced agriculture.'


    Well, these are the closest thing to reliable figures I could find. Numbers in thousands.

    14th c. 150
    1533–1539 157
    1690–1691 232
    1800 275
    1890 532
    1914 689
    1922 752
    1931 1,033
    1947 1,970

    A Biblical population of more than a few hundred thousand seems improbable -- and not all of those would be Jews. The population of Palestine bumps along -- then starts merrily leaping upward along with the rest of the globe in the nineteenth century.

    Above, I speculated that the total population of Palestine -- Jews, worshippers of Baal, Greeks, peasants worshipping whatever -- couldn't have been more than three hundred thousand in Roman times. Given the figures for the 14th-18th centuries above, that seems generous.

    It -- along with the overwhelming preponderance of the other available evidence -- keeps coming back to the same thing. There's no way the bulk of today's Jews are primarily descended from ancient inhabitants of Palestine. Sure, they may be able to trace a fraction of their ancestry to that region -- but there's a group with a much better genetic claim to Palestine.

    The Palestinians.

    Go figure.

    , @Lot
    Partly the Ottoman Turk’s fault. They taxed and “recruited” the heck out of one of their fully controlled non-Turkish areas in order to fund their failing efforts to hold onto their European empire. This was harder for them to do in Lebanon and Syria, as France and Russia considered themselves the protectors of those areas’ Christian populations.
  241. @Alden
    Rothschild girls sometimes really did marry blood, not by marriage uncles. In fact uncle blood niece marriage is still legal in Rhode Island because there was a big Jewish community there in Newport in colonial times. It was common enough with those colonial Jews that they got it written into the laws.

    I don’t know what the Rothschild’s did before old Mayer got rich but his 10 children all married and had children and all of the grandchildren married first cousins. The 10 Rothschild children didn’t marry into 10 other families . They married into just 7 other families.

    So some of the Rothschild grandchildren were double first cousins who married cousins and double first cousins. This continued for generations and when there were no male cousins some of the girls married blood uncles

    All this in breeding doesn’t seem to have harmed Rothschild brains health and looks at all.

    I have a friend whose parents are first cousins. They were farmers from a polish area where there weren’t many Jewish farmers. So they married first cousins for generations.

    He and one brother are lawyers. Other brother is an engineer. All normal. Best looking Jewish men I’ve ever seen. They look a lot like that actor Omar Sharif who played Dr. Zhivago.

    Maybe first cousin marriage isn’t so bad. Look what it did for the Rothschilds. And European royalty for 1500 years.

    James Rothschild, Mayer’s son and founder of Paris branch married his niece Betty, daughter of his brother Salomon.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Mayer_de_Rothschild

  242. @Daniel H
    >>So who’s more inbred, a Jew or a Muslim? And why did inbreeding work out so well for the Jews and so poorly for the Muslims?

    Good point, and the HBD people don't/can't explain this. Apparently, the entire Jewish Ashkanazi Jewish population is descended from a core group of approximately 2,000 individuals who originated in northern Italy in the 12th century. With such a small founding population, isn't a great deal of close kin breeding almost guaranteed? Yet, overall, this population doesn't seem to be adversely affected by this phenomenon (Tay Sachs, notwithstanding). But recently I was perusing stories and looking at photos of Yemeni Jews who have been evacuated from Yemen over the past 30 years (a small community that by necessity had to marry close kin). They don't look right. Something looks off. I wouldn't be surprised that they have low mean IQ. Anyway, I don't know anything about genetics or development biology.

    “Apparently, the entire Jewish Ashkanazi Jewish population is descended from a core group of approximately 2,000 individuals who originated in northern Italy in the 12th century.”

    Those aren’t the only ancestors of Ashkenazim, just the most substantial ones. After the migration of the core Italki Jewish group from Italy into what became the Ashkenazic cultural lands, the following people married into Ashkenazic communities:
    * dozens of Sephardic Jews from Spain and Portugal, mostly men but at least 3 women
    * multiple Polish women and 1 Polish/Belarusian/Sorbian man
    * several Dutch, German, and Gothic women and men
    * 3 Chinese women
    * a couple of Mizrahi Jewish men related to Iranian Jews, Iraqi Jews, and Mountain Jews
    * at least 1 Sicilian Jew (the non-Sephardic kind)

    Ashkenazim are not, in fact, “inbred”, according to the way geneticists define inbreeding.
    See Razib Khan’s classic commentary http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/07/ashkenazi-jews-are-not-inbred/

  243. @Bardon Kaldian
    Well, I see two strands here, one which I can understand & the other which I despise.

    Jews are basically a mid-Eastern people who had been wandering around for two millennia (or so) in Europe; who remained mostly inbred; and who are on genetic level close to Druzes, Palestinians & some other groups from that region. They are not Europeans, genetically, of any variety (and there are many varieties). For instance, the don't belong to Balto-Slavic subgroup. Foreigners.

    In the case of Russian (and other Slavic) immigrants to Israel I have no objections to gene testing because there were many fake Jewish, mostly economic immigrants who are not ancestrally, let alone culturally (religion & similar stuff like local languages) Jewish. They don't belong to that mid- Eastern ethnic group.

    What I dislike is that individuals who may not have much of a mid East ancestry, but have been raised there & are culturally-nationally Israeli (language, culture, identity, a sense of belonging,..) are being submitted to a humiliating "genetic testing". There is something loathsome in the whole procedure that inflames visceral disgust.

    On the other hand, I would condone testing & booting various immigrants who are trying to leech Israeli state, but don't care about its language, culture, identity etc.

    In the case of the US, the practice is clearly racialist. I think that tribal membership of "genetic sort" (of course, without testing) works for Apaches & some other groups. But it is primitivism that harks back to Bronze Age & before & should be discarded by any literate (sub)culture.

    In the case of US Jews, testing is good for one's health (possible partners & progeny); but, to determine one's identity & individual's belonging, it is antiquated &...well, somehow psychologically constricting & depraved.

    Bardon Kaldian claimed: “Jews are basically a mid-Eastern people […] are on genetic level close to Druzes, Palestinians & some other groups from that region. They are not Europeans, genetically, of any variety (and there are many varieties). For instance, the don’t belong to Balto-Slavic subgroup.”

    Your statements are demonstratably untrue. On population plots, Western Jews genetically cluster with peoples of the Mediterranean sea including Sicilians and Greek Cretans – not with Levantine people – due to their European-Middle Eastern mixtures. Prior to the establishment of the Sephardic and Ashkenazic cultures, Western Jews absorbed Greek lineages like I-Y23115 and Italian lineages like R1b-L4 and R1b-Z145.

    Ashkenazic Jews sometimes carry Northern European (yes even Balto-Slavic) maternal haplogroups like H11a2a2, W3a1a1, J1c7a, H26c, H7j, and H5a, and Northern European paternal haplogroups like I-P19, I1-Z140, I2-PF6950, R1b-U152, R1b-U106 (Vandal or Visigothic), and R1a-M458 (West Slavic). K2a2a is also European of some kind.

    Individual Ashkenazic Jews can score up to 12% or 13% Slavic autosomal DNA. That’s not insignificant. Some others, however, have nearly none of that.

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
    I'm not that much interested in genealogical stuff (after all, my position is that identity is not equal to ancestry). However, I've noticed (in passing) that many (most?) Jews claim they are genetically-historically mid-Easterners & not "white" (which means, I guess, "European"). That's what they, or at least a significant majority of them, say. Personally, I don't care. I'm just conveying what they consider their "genetic ancestry" is...



    http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/files/2010/06/jewpc21.png

    https://www.quora.com/Are-Ashkenazi-Jews-genetically-closer-to-Southern-Europeans-or-Arabs

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Jews#Comparison_with_the_genetic_inheritance_of_non-Jewish_populations
    ..........................................
    Many genetic studies have demonstrated that most of the various Jewish ethnic divisions and Druze, Palestinians,[4][28][5][46] Bedouin,[28][5] Lebanese and other Levantines cluster near one another genetically. Many studies have found that Jews and Palestinians are closer to each other than the Palestinians or European Jews are to non-Jewish Europeans or Africans.[28][5][35] They also found substantial genetic overlap between Israeli and Palestinian Arabs and Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews.
  244. @Colin Wright
    'Sand pretends that European Jews are entirely converted Europeans but that ignores this Levantine component that truly exists. Levantine DNA is easily distinguished from European DNA.'

    Well, that touches on something else. Proving that Jews have Levantine DNA isn't the same as proving they're from Palestine.

    80% of the population of the Roman Empire was in the East. Establishing that modern Jewry has DNA from the Eastern Mediterranean may demonstrate they are largely descended from the Jews of the Roman Empire -- but that's not the same as proving they're from Palestine.

    Frankly, I find the whole thing obviously silly. For me, the epiphany came when Israel's Minister of the Interior, Yishai, claimed that 'Israel is for the white man' -- by which he meant not for Arabs.

    Well, Yishai was a Tunisian Jew. I went looking through photos of gentile Tunisians -- and sure enough. In short order, I found a photo of Yishai's long-lost twin brother. Netanyahu looks quite similar to various recent Polish gentile politicians. That Yemeni Jewish soldier who was filmed murdering a wounded suspect as he lay helpless at his feet looks just like...you guessed it.

    A gentile Yemeni. As a rule, Jews don't look like Jews from other regions so much as they look like the gentiles of the various lands they come from.

    This isn't very hard to accept if you understand ordinary human behavior. It's only hard to accept if you cling to the obviously silly notion that today's Jews are descended from the inhabitants of ancient Palestine.

    They're not.

    Colin Wright wrote: “That Yemeni Jewish soldier … looks just like… A gentile Yemeni.”

    I can believe that. Yemenite Jews have much more convert ancestry than Western Jews do.

    During the Himyarite kingdom days, a large number of southern Arabians converted to Judaism, and modern Yemenite Jews have less than 1/8th Levantine ancestry.

  245. @Steve Sailer
    Is your view that Ashkenazis are less Levantine Hebrew-Italian mixes than Levantine Hebrew-Greek mixes?

    Steve Sailer asked “Is your view that Ashkenazis are less Levantine Hebrew-Italian mixes than Levantine Hebrew-Greek mixes?”

    Yes. The most current evidence is that Ashkenazim have both Italian and Greek ancestry but the Greek ancestry is more substantial.

    From the new study “Genetic history of the population of Crete” by Petros Drineas, et al. in Annals of Human Genetics, June 13, 2019 (https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/ahg.12328):
    “In the PCA of Crete vs Europe, the Cretans overlap with three populations: the Peloponneseans, the Sicilians and the Ashkenazi Jews (see Figures 4a, S17, and S18). […] Furthermore, we find in both PCA and ADMIXTURE analysis, that the Ashkenazi are more similar to the Cretans than to the two Levantine Semitic populations. One possible explanation is that this relation might reveal a common Mediterranean ancestry that the Cretan and Ashkenazi populations share.”

    By contrast, scientists have not found a noteworthy amount of identical-by-descent DNA sharing between Ashkenazic Jews and the non-Greek Italians from northern Italy. A connection of that kind was one of the earlier hypotheses but it looks wrong now.

  246. @jon

    As we waited in line, we joked that this was our punishment for our ancestors marrying their cousins.
     
    So who's more inbred, a Jew or a Muslim? And why did inbreeding work out so well for the Jews and so poorly for the Muslims?

    So who’s more inbred, a Jew or a Muslim? And why did inbreeding work out so well for the Jews and so poorly for the Muslims?

    Jews were inbred – when they moved back to the West they adopted the western marriage model which fixed most of it.

  247. @Old Palo Altan
    Fischer, a Jew, wrote the following in 2011:

    'A lot of the attention has focused on the new law but the problems run far deeper. Even more worrying are changes to the national constitution that are being drafted and the rise of anti-Semitism, homophobia and xenophobia in Hungarian society.'

    What's he even doing in Budapest, much less conducting what you rightly term the single greatest monument of Western music?

    Perhaps more seriously: a (fairly) detailed justification of your view of his talent would be appreciated.

    Fischer, a Jew, wrote the following in 2011…

    Well, yeah – he talks too much. At least, he used to.

    But Götterdämmerung begins in a couple of hours, so I must go now.

  248. @vinteuil

    ...Jewish life was forcefully suppressed during the Soviet era...

     

    Is this actually true? Was "Jewish life" any more suppressed than Catholic or Orthodox Life?

    Is this actually true? Was “Jewish life” any more suppressed than Catholic or Orthodox Life?

    no

    it’s the usual nonsense to cover up what the Bolsheviks did.

  249. @Flip
    There were many Jews among the founders of the Soviet Union but their influence seemed to fade over time. Was that due to Stalin or just Slavs reasserting themselves? I remember reading a quote by Khrushchev during a visit to Poland in 1956 that there were "too many Abramoviches" among the leadership.

    i think the loss of control was partly due to in-fighting among the Bolshevik elite with the losers getting shot.

  250. @Anonymous

    Probably more precise to say “half Palestinian” or “half Levantine” or even “half Canaanite”.
     
    Why is that more precise? Aren't those people Arabs or significantly related to them? What is wrong with half Arab?

    Arabs invaded the Levant later.

  251. @Jus' Sayin'...
    Notice that I wrote. "It [high IQ] has helped Ashkenaz Jews to thrive in accomodating host populations but the negative traits that inbreeding has associated with intelligence in Ashkenaz Jewish populations ... may decrease Darwinian fitness in other settings."

    I believe that you make my point for me. In their current primary host population -- contemporary liberal, western,, "capitalist", "democracies" -- Ashkenaz Jews have done extraordinarily well. They have often exploited their success to subvert these populations, even to the point that they provide essential support for the survival of Ashkenaz Jews in Israel, e.g. billions of dollars in foreign aid and endless US military adventures to destabilize potential enemies in North Africa, the Levant, the Middle East, and southwest Asia. They have subverted these host populations with policies that, while favoring Jewish interests subvert those of the host population as a whole, e.g., globalism and open borders, successful limitations on free speech, and insane central bank policies. Jews have done this by acting as a group, not a monolithic group, as portrayed for example in "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion", but nonetheless a clearly discernible group, acting in concert for almost two centuries.

    But the very success of this subversion is is likely to alter the host populations in dysfunctional ways. Clearly Jewish leaders expect to remain in control after Western countries become illiberal, welfare states with a congeries of racial and ethnic groups competing for political dominance and dominated by Jewish control of finance, the information industries, and government bureaucracies. But history suggests that what will eventually arise from this is a cross-ethnic populist movement united by real anti-Semitism, e.g., that found in many if not most of the West's growing non-European populations. Ultimately a place where Jews will not thrive. This same process has played out many times before.

    What I find surprising is that Ashkenaz Jews, considered as a group, have not yet learned to moderate their exploitation of an accommodating host population. What is playing out now has played out before on multiple occasions, e.g. pre-Inquisition Spain, the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, multiple times in countries across medieval Europe, and in the Russian Pale during the 19th century.

    Consider the following parable:

    A large redneck family – call them the McCoys - move into a southern hamlet. The patriarch of the clan visits the sheriff and tells him that his family have spent as far back as they can remember wandering from town to town. Everywhere they go, despite their blameless behavior – and indeed the superiority they are convinced they have to everyone among whom they’ve lived – they are mercilessly persecuted for no discernible reason and sooner or later forced to move on. He adds that he hopes the sheriff and townspeople will change this pattern and treat the McCoys better.

    The sheriff takes pity on the family and welcomes them to their new home. Immediately trouble breaks out. The newcomers impose endlessly on their neighbors. When they get the upper hand they mistreat their neighbors mercilessly. Otherwise they complain bitterly that they are being mistreated. They demand that the sheriff do something to prevent this mistreatment. The townsfolk, meanwhile, complain about the constant misbehavior of the newcomers. Eventually the sheriff discovers that the McCoys have secretly set up a political campaign to remove him from office, replace him with someone more to their liking, and change town ordinances so that the McCoy behaviors, which the townspeople find annoying, threatening, harmful, or repugnant get special legal protection and the townspeople’s reactions to these McCoy behaviors are made illegal.

    Should one condemn the sheriff’s and townspeople’s subsequent attempts to rein in the behavior of the McCoys or else drive them from the town as an evil that one might call “anti-McCoyism” or does it appear that some more complicated process is going on here?

    What I find surprising is that Ashkenaz Jews, considered as a group, have not yet learned to moderate their exploitation of an accommodating host population.

    they have to lie to themselves about their history to maintain cohesion and that prevents them from breaking the cycle.

    • Replies: @Anonymous

    and that prevents them from breaking the cycle.
     
    How does historiography have any causal effect on "breaking the cycle"?
  252. @Not Raul
    Why would so many people have converted? Was it mainly wives converting to the religion of their husbands? When did this huge wave of conversions start?

    Why would so many people have converted?

    slaves

  253. @Anon
    The Milana Pich photo shows strong signs of selfie auto filtering, eye enlargment, nose, mouth, and chin reduction, skin smoothing.

    We've entered a period where future generations are going to wonder what people really looked like, similar to the powdered wig period in Europe where all paintings of people show them with giant wigs. What did Samuel Pepys really look like?

    Not to mention deep fakes which will make it impossible to believe video. “I have it on film” will become meaningless as evidence of reality.

    • Replies: @Logan
    I don't know anything at all about the issue, but it seems highly unlikely to me that deep fakery can be done without leaving digital fingerprints that disclose it's been tampered with, although not perhaps how it's been altered.
  254. @Alden
    Rothschild girls sometimes really did marry blood, not by marriage uncles. In fact uncle blood niece marriage is still legal in Rhode Island because there was a big Jewish community there in Newport in colonial times. It was common enough with those colonial Jews that they got it written into the laws.

    I don’t know what the Rothschild’s did before old Mayer got rich but his 10 children all married and had children and all of the grandchildren married first cousins. The 10 Rothschild children didn’t marry into 10 other families . They married into just 7 other families.

    So some of the Rothschild grandchildren were double first cousins who married cousins and double first cousins. This continued for generations and when there were no male cousins some of the girls married blood uncles

    All this in breeding doesn’t seem to have harmed Rothschild brains health and looks at all.

    I have a friend whose parents are first cousins. They were farmers from a polish area where there weren’t many Jewish farmers. So they married first cousins for generations.

    He and one brother are lawyers. Other brother is an engineer. All normal. Best looking Jewish men I’ve ever seen. They look a lot like that actor Omar Sharif who played Dr. Zhivago.

    Maybe first cousin marriage isn’t so bad. Look what it did for the Rothschilds. And European royalty for 1500 years.

    Maybe first cousin marriage isn’t so bad. Look what it did for the Rothschilds. And European royalty for 1500 years.

    after a while banking families married into the landed aristocracy.

  255. @Anonymous

    An important part of the effect is that Jews do not actively proselytize;
     
    It is more accurate to say they exclude.

    They also strongly discourage outmarriage.

    Of all the misinformation and outright horseshit on this thread, this one takes the cake. Yes, Jews so strongly discourage intermarriage that in the US, close to 60% currently marry out.

    • Replies: @Anonymous

    Of all the misinformation and outright horseshit on this thread, this one takes the cake. Yes, Jews so strongly discourage intermarriage that in the US, close to 60% currently marry out.
     
    Sure, they are so encouraging of intermarriage that in Israel a Gentile cannot wed a Jew, and in the United States it has been common for Jews to refer to intermarriage as "the Second Holocaust", and under Jewish Law an offspring of a Jewish man and Gentile woman is not considered Jewish, and that offspring is considered what?

    Many of the mixed marriages in the United States are second, later-in-life marriages where reproduction is absent, and/or involve secular Jews.

  256. @Kevin Brook
    Indeed, BB753. Also, some Sephardim of Amsterdam later moved east into Poland in the late 1600s and early 1700s. Joel S. Davidi Weisberger's article "Sephardim Real and Imagined" in The Philadelphia Jewish Voice on February 7, 2018 names 4 of them: Merari Belogrado, Nieto de H.H. Usiel, Mordehay Cohen, and Rahel Cuna, plus a convert to Judaism named Abraham Israel Guer. Some Sephardim intermarried with Ashkenazim and have descendants among the Ashkenazim to this day. In Ashkenazic lands some descendants of the Portuguese Jews were given the surnames "Portugeyz" or "Portugal" by the mid-1800s.

    I'm distantly related to a family from the Netherlands where Sephardim intermarried with Christian Dutch people.

    I've also been in contact with a descendant of the early Sephardic settlers of England. They've intermarried a lot with non-Sephardic Jews including Ashkenazic Jews and Baghdadi Jews, but they still proudly identify as a community of "Spanish and Portuguese Jews" and follow Sephardic rites.

    Teixeira de Mattos maybe?

  257. @Daniel H
    >>So who’s more inbred, a Jew or a Muslim? And why did inbreeding work out so well for the Jews and so poorly for the Muslims?

    Good point, and the HBD people don't/can't explain this. Apparently, the entire Jewish Ashkanazi Jewish population is descended from a core group of approximately 2,000 individuals who originated in northern Italy in the 12th century. With such a small founding population, isn't a great deal of close kin breeding almost guaranteed? Yet, overall, this population doesn't seem to be adversely affected by this phenomenon (Tay Sachs, notwithstanding). But recently I was perusing stories and looking at photos of Yemeni Jews who have been evacuated from Yemen over the past 30 years (a small community that by necessity had to marry close kin). They don't look right. Something looks off. I wouldn't be surprised that they have low mean IQ. Anyway, I don't know anything about genetics or development biology.

    Some wound up as bankers and merchants and so on. A lot probably converted to Christianity and disappeared from the community, surfacing only in 23andme results. So perhaps only the most able were able to remain in the community? That or selecting particularly for intelligence outweighs all the Tay-Sachs-ish genetic diseases you get along the way? I’m not sure. It is odd.

  258. @AnotherDad

    But still, there was something disconcerting about our Jewishness being “confirmed” by a biological test. After all, the reason my grandparents had to leave the towns and villages of their ancestors was because of ethno-nationalism emboldened by a racialized conception of Jewishness as something that exists “in the blood”.
     
    It's always weird to encounter this tunnel of funhouse mirrors that is the Jewish self-conception:

    -- People who married freely with each other in their local area, building and sharing common language, religion, norms and culture (and paving the way for the nation state and eventually representative government) … "ethno-nationalists"! evil people!

    -- People who moved into other peoples' lands but refused to adopt their language, religion, norms, culture and merge with them into a common people, but cultivated an intense outsider hostility to keep themselves endogamously, culturally and religiously distinct--a separate non-conforming tribe … us! the good people!

    ~~~

    Hey, some sort of credit for the sheer assholery involved to "keep tribalism alive!" for 1000+ years. It's a knock on us Euro-gentiles that Jews were allowed to live amongst us. Despite efforts of several foresighted rulers to kick the Jews out and unifty and strengthen their nations, there was always some asshole ruler willing to sell out his own people's long term interest for a few shekels.

    Still from a historical perspective there's no question who the "good people" were. It isn't the people dragging their petty tribalism down through the ages and foisting it on people building modern nations.

    “Despite efforts of several foresighted rulers … and unifty and strengthen their nations, there was always some asshole ruler willing to sell out his own people’s long term interest for money.”

    Take out the Jewish part, still holds true.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    A generally applicable principle for AnotherDad comments. Somewhere in the middle one can find the truth (I.e. Jews aren’t exactly distinguishing themselves either).
    , @AnotherDad

    “Despite efforts of several foresighted rulers … and unifty and strengthen their nations, there was always some asshole ruler willing to sell out his own people’s long term interest for money.”

    Take out the Jewish part, still holds true.
     
    Agree. Asshole--self-aggrandizing--rulers are a common thing.

    The best you can do is republican governance, where the responsible self-supporting men of a community or nation make the decisions/laws that they will have to support and live with. And, of course, this is why republican governance has been attacked, constrained, destroyed in the US and the West in favor of self-serving elite rule through courts and bureaucracies.

    And even with republican governance foresight takes ... foresight! The problem that Enoch Powell outlined in those brilliant opening lines of his famous speech:

    The supreme function of statesmanship is to provide against preventable evils. In seeking to do so, it encounters obstacles which are deeply rooted in human nature.

    One is that by the very order of things such evils are not demonstrable until they have occurred: at each stage in their onset there is room for doubt and for dispute whether they be real or imaginary. By the same token, they attract little attention in comparison with current troubles, which are both indisputable and pressing: whence the besetting temptation of all politics to concern itself with the immediate present at the expense of the future.
     
  259. @Lot
    “Demonstrating that Ashkenazim don’t share any significant DNA with some Khazars doesn’t demonstrate much. ... Finally, and most importantly, demonstrating that the Jews didn’t come from Khazaria doesn’t prove that they did come from Palestine.“

    Add genomics to the many topics Colin Wright doesn’t understand but has strong opinions about.

    ‘“Demonstrating that Ashkenazim don’t share any significant DNA with some Khazars doesn’t demonstrate much. … Finally, and most importantly, demonstrating that the Jews didn’t come from Khazaria doesn’t prove that they did come from Palestine.“

    Add genomics to the many topics Colin Wright doesn’t understand but has strong opinions about.’

    Ah. So demonstrating that the Jews didn’t come from Khazaria does demonstrate that they came from Palestine.

    I see.

  260. utu says:

    both “100% Ashkenazi Jewish”, it struck me as slightly odd

    Yes it is very odd because it is a fraudulent science. No mathematical protocol could yield such a result unless it is rigged with multiple conditional statements to homogenize virtually exclusive genetic Jewish lineages that on average have less that 50% Semitic admixture while majority of markers are European.

    Bennett Greenspan, founder of Family Tree DNA said something very revealing about his motives and priorities which are strictly political:

    http://www.avotaynuonline.com/2015/06/genetic-census-of-the-jewish-people/

    The urgency of our work is magnified by the fact that the legitimacy of the Jewish people and its claim to our ancestral home is currently under constant pseudo-historical attack. The media, particularly on the web, carries regular features from enemies of Israel describing theories to the effect that Ashkenazi Jews have no connection to the land of Israel and are, in fact, European and Central Asian interlopers.

    The Y-chromosome studies demonstrably prove otherwise — a majority of Ashkenazi male lineages are from the Middle East. As the various publicly known DNA test providers have assembled Jewish DNA databases — not just FamilyTreeDNA but my colleagues at 23andMe and Ancestry as well — we have found unmistakable evidence that Ashkenazi Jews are closely related to one another, meaning that from a genetic standpoint, all Jews are indeed part of one genetically united people with ample Middle Eastern and Mediterranean forebears.

    Would Bennett Greenspan person have a motive to cook results? Would he had means to cook results? Besides his company just like 23andMe and Ancestry are not really scientific outfits that can be independently scrutinized. Their output is not a scientific product. They are selling to people what people want to hear. Jews want to be Jewish so they get Jewish results. African-Americans want some fancy tribal names from Africa and so they get it. There is a lot of BS there which is not really verifiable. Besides nobody really tries. These companies spend lots of money on advertisement and clever meme creation. I am sure that Henry Louis Gates Jr. is paid very well to spread the meme. People eat it up thinking it is a robust and reliable science. But is it?

    For this reason I still doubt that the Khazar hypothesis was debunked. I would not dismiss American-Israeli researcher Eran Elhaik:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eran_Elhaik
    In the field of population genetics, Elhaik has published papers analyzing the ancestries of European Jews[7][8][9] and Druze,[10][11] including work related to the Khazar hypothesis of Ashkenazi ancestry, a contentious subject that has received media attention.[12] Elhaik argues for a non-Levantine origin of the Ashkenazi[13] and favours the hypothesis that they are of mixed Irano-Turko-Slavic and southern European descent.[14]

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/new-dna-tech-pinpoints-yiddish-origins-to-north-turkey/
    The results, Elhaik said, showed that many of them came from the vicinity of four ancient villages in northern Turkey whose names are conspicuously similar to “Ashkenaz” — Askenaz, Eskenaz, Ashanaz, and Ashkuz — and which are all located near a crossroads of the ancient Silk Road trade route.

    The researchers have surmised that the language may have been invented by Iranian and Slavic Jews who traded on the Silk Road around the 9th century.

    “We were able to predict the possible ancestral location where Yiddish originated over 1,000 years ago — a question which linguists have debated over for many years,” Elhaik said.

    “They did this by inventing Yiddish — a secret language that very few can speak or understand other than Jews. Our findings are in agreement with an alternative theory that suggests Yiddish has Iranian, Turkish, and Slavic origins and explains why Yiddish contains 251 words for the terms ‘buy’ and ‘sell’. This is what we can expect from a language of experienced merchants.”

    “Yiddish is such a wonderful and complex language, which was inappropriately called ‘bad German’ by both its native and non-native speakers because the language consists of made-up German words and a non-German grammar,” Elhaik said.

    “Yiddish is truly a combination of familiar and adapted German words using Slavic grammar.”

  261. @Old Palo Altan
    There are (or were) other big Anglo-Dutch companies, but I won't mention which - like all of us, I like my anonymity.

    As for Shell (as I remark in a reply to a reply to you), it was only half Jewish in origin. The other, Dutch, half was so proudly Aryan that a son of one of the founders was a leading collaborator during World War II. You can see him in a fascinating Youtube clip of Himmler's visit to the Hague in 1942, but again, I won't say exactly where.

    Deterding was a known Nazi sympathizer but he died in 1939. He got a big Nazi sendoff at his funeral (which was held at his estate in Germany). Hitler sent a wreath:


    This web page has lots about the Shell collaboration with the Nazis:

    https://royaldutchshellplc.com/2016/10/01/royal-dutch-shell-and-the-nazis/

    • Replies: @Old Palo Altan
    A lot of this "collaboration with the Nazis" was just "business is business".

    My relation was fully given over to the Cause, and ended up in jail for four years, and then in exile until his death. His family name is given in the link you give, but it is his cousin who is mentioned there, who was so much more merely a "business is business" type that he went on to head Shell after the war.

    His family circle thought it a bit gauche for the former to have been so inattentive as to have put all his eggs in one basket.
  262. @Hail

    Mischlings are difficult though, because the Jewish “type” really seems to fully dissipate after one mix
     
    Would you be able to guess the Amy Chua Tiger Daughters are Jewish?

    (They literally "are" Jewish -- raised Jewish, identify primarily as Jewish; at least one of the daughters is an aggressive IDF fan who slams Palestinians.)

    https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=amy+chua+daughters

    Would you be able to guess the Amy Chua Tiger Daughters are Jewish?

    Of course not. They’re <50% Ashkenazi, and half Chinese.

    (They literally “are” Jewish — raised Jewish, identify primarily as Jewish; at least one of the daughters is an aggressive IDF fan who slams Palestinians.)

    They can “identify” however they want. We know that Jews are an ethnic group and a religion and the two don’t always correspond completely.

    You might as well have asked if I would be able to guess that Sammy Davis Jr. is Jewish.

    • Replies: @Hail

    Would you be able to guess the Amy Chua Tiger Daughters are Jewish?
     

    Of course not.
     
    Fair enough, but I think I can see that the daughters' non-EastAsian side is Jewish -- or, at least, something like Jewish; definitely not the NW-European core of White America.

    One Tiger Daughter, in particular, looks almost like a young Jewish woman outright (only mildly-exotic). The other looks more like the "Hapa" that she is.

    https://dailyentertainmentnews.com/wpgo/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Jeb-Rubenfeld-Amy-chua-daughters.jpg
  263. @Lot
    “Demonstrating that Ashkenazim don’t share any significant DNA with some Khazars doesn’t demonstrate much. ... Finally, and most importantly, demonstrating that the Jews didn’t come from Khazaria doesn’t prove that they did come from Palestine.“

    Add genomics to the many topics Colin Wright doesn’t understand but has strong opinions about.

    Actually this whole thread demonstrates that people here are just full of strong opinions about Jews (a crowd favorite topic – any post involving Jews gets twice as many comments as non-Jew related comments) and most of those opinions bear little or no resemblance to reality.

    • Replies: @Alec Leamas

    Actually this whole thread demonstrates that people here are just full of strong opinions about Jews (a crowd favorite topic – any post involving Jews gets twice as many comments as non-Jew related comments) and most of those opinions bear little or no resemblance to reality.
     
    Jack, I think you're misinterpreting.

    People in lots of places are full of strong opinions about Jews, or, specifically, grossly disproportionate Jewish wealth/power/influence, as well as Jewish participation in radical social and political causes.

    It just happens to be the fact that Mr. Unz is one of the very few enlightened who will host such opinions and discussions rather than ruthlessly suppressing them.
  264. @Kevin Brook
    I did mention "occasional intermarriage with Germans and Poles." About 3% German and 5-12% Polish, to varying degrees depending on the individual. That would explain some, but not all, of the blue eyes and light skin and probably most of the instances of blond hair. At least one of the red hair genes in the Ashkenazic population has a northern European source, though perhaps that's not the only red hair gene Ashkenazim have (even 100% Levantine Samaritans sometimes have red hair and light skin).

    Deep ancestry tests with LivingDNA, nMonte, and Eurogenes calculators really all do confirm that the vast majority of Ashkenazic DNA is Mediterranean.

    The Dodecad Ancestry Project took my raw DNA from 23andme (who says I am 100% Ashkenazi) and gave me my closest genetic distance. Here are my top 5.

    Ashkenazi Jew
    Romanian Jew
    Sicilian
    Greek
    Southern Italian

    Look at all that Mediterranean yet I have light skin and blue eyes..no dark or stereotypically Jewish looking features at all.

    • Replies: @Kevin Brook
    Yes, your results are very typical in Dodecad. And in Eurogenes, where Southern Italian, Sicilian, and Greek are usually 2nd/3rd/4th after Ashkenazi for genetic distance.

    Based on what you wrote, it appears that 23andme recently upped your Ashkenazic percentage -- you saw it was reported to be 98.5% before this year according to your comment dated December 29, 2018. Now you tell us it's 100% with no trace regions or unassigned DNA.

    The tools like Dodecad are more useful for us than 23andme for ethnicity interpretations because they show our components and population affinities, rather than just considering Ashkenazim an isolated pure population. I do appreciate 23andme's relative matching feature however.

    In an nMonte experiment, "LTG" modelled Ashkenazic DNA as 45.8% like Eastern Sicilians and 34.2% like Levantines plus 6.8% Southern French and small amounts of the usual minority elements.

    In the GenePlaza K29 admixture calculator, Ashkenazim are modelled as 55-64% Southern European.

    Italki Jews from Rome are modelled as 87% similar to Romaniote Jews, while Sephardic Jews are modelled as 88.2% similar to Romaniote Jews, and Ashkenazic Jews are modelled as 79.6% similar to Romaniote Jews. All 4 groups have a lot of Greek DNA, but a degree of "Italian_Bergamo" was added in Italkim, Sephardim, and Ashkenazim to the tune of 9-13%.
    , @Lot
    Your ancestors spent 1100 years in Northern Europe where selection for light features is strong.

    Your Siciliano cousins did not.
  265. @slumber_j

    Oscar’s Granny’s quote, followed by a picture of Oscar.
     
    Not only that, but with a photo of Bob Dylan featured prominently in the background.

    Good catch. I didn’t notice that but it makes the irony quite piquant.

  266. @Old Palo Altan
    What's an Aston?

    What’s an Aston?

    An Aston-Martin, a luxury sportscar of British Origin. James Bond drove one for a while.

  267. @Lot
    The Mountain/Armenian Jews are descendants of Persian Jews and local populations where they settled.

    I never met one, though an AJ from NY area told me they aren’t smart and don’t have a good reputation around NYC.

    I’ve read Mountain Jews, Armenian Jews and Georgian Jews, are different races, with different ethnogenesis, and today do not marry between each other.

    Each has its own native language. Even young Mountain Jews are speaking in “Tat language” natively.

    Moreover, their appearance is different between each other. For example, Mountain Jews seem generally a darker race than Georgian Jews.

    Externally, the Mountain Jewish race appears quite similar to Northern Indian or Iranian races.

    I never met one, though an AJ from NY area told me they aren’t smart and don’t have a good reputation around NYC.

    According to Russian media – Mountain Jews are supposed to be the richest nationality in Russia today.

    However, this calculation is probably not accurate, if you know Russian census. In this census, you can write any nationality you want to be today (people can even write “Jedi”).

    Most Mountain Jews, will surely write they are “Jews” in the census, instead of “Mountain Jews”. While most people with Ashkenazi Jewish descent, will definitely write “Russian” in the census.

    As their number is underestimated in the census, the extent of their per capita wealth will be probably inflated.

    • Replies: @Dmitry

    As their number is underestimated in the census, the extent of their per capita wealth will be probably inflated.

     

    This calculation was created by dividing publicly high net worth Mountain Jews, by the underestimated number of them in the census.
  268. @Twodees Partain
    Hmmmm....I'd say that they look Mormon. Mormons ain't exactly Christian, are they?

    Mormons, like JWs and other marginal groups, think of themselves as Christians. But many/most other Christians beg to differ.

    I’ve been involved in some of the most hilarious discussions online where various folks battle it out over who’s “really” Christian.

    Some RCs rule out anybody but RCs, and a good many Protestants return the favor by excluding papists.

    The the Prods fight among themselves about this or that belief that includes or excludes various denominations.

    Carried to its logical conclusion, you wind up with:

    • Replies: @Twodees Partain
    True. There are different denominations and sects. Seems there will always be differences in doctrine and dogma. Divisions become comical once the discussions start.
  269. @Dmitry
    There are quite a few "pure Ashkenazi Jews" with blonde hair. Hair colour is not reliable. It's more something in the face, where you see they are Jews.

    Go to a richest area of Israel and look at the "Ashkenazi elite" and natural blondes are not infrequent at all in those areas.

    Also go to Bnei Brak, and you can see at least 1 in 10 of dosim there are blonde (while maybe another 3 in 10 of them have dark brown skin).

    But blonde "pure Jews" look very different generally to Russian people, and their face is usually something a bit different.

    If you know Israeli faces, then you can recognize it.

    This girl - usually only Jewish/Israeli people have that smile at 0:16

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APbwnuhUA_U

    Or this celebrity beatboxer

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hKQM9H6Y5A

    If rich Jewish women were cut off from the supply of peroxide you’d see a lot fewer blondes.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    Yes but when I was in Israel, I could see physical difference of "pure Ashkenazi", even when blonde (which today you see that demographic more in elite areas), and how the more Russian/Ukrainian mixed with Jewish people population is (which are more common in poorer outskirts like Bat Yam).

    E.g. More pure secular Ashkenazi Israeli women in the army of the past. Even when they are blonde, they have a distinctive foreign appearance for my eyes.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TCZS5V02Nw

    -

    E.g. what secular Russian speaking Israeli Jews look like who have often Slavic racial admixture. It's common population to lower-middle class outskirts and periphery in Israel, and usually all living more mixed up with Mizrahi Jews and Ethiopian Jews (or in places like Lod, Russian speaking ghetto even was forced into a difficult situation of living next to Arabs).

    Much of the historic Jewish blood in Russia/Ukraine was just swallowed into this mixed race population
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpHfdCQTZG0

  270. @Hail

    Mischlings are difficult though, because the Jewish “type” really seems to fully dissipate after one mix
     
    Would you be able to guess the Amy Chua Tiger Daughters are Jewish?

    (They literally "are" Jewish -- raised Jewish, identify primarily as Jewish; at least one of the daughters is an aggressive IDF fan who slams Palestinians.)

    https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=amy+chua+daughters

    Not according to Jewish law they’re not, unless they’ve converted.

  271. @Desiderius

    At least in theory, you convert to Christianity, and presto, you’re a genuine, fully admitted member of the church; in Judaism, you’re definitely not the equal of those Jews who can claim longer lineage.
     
    Which is why the New Testament opens with tracing Jesus’ lineage back to Adam.

    At least in theory, you convert to Christianity, and presto, you’re a genuine, fully admitted member of the church; in Judaism, you’re definitely not the equal of those Jews who can claim longer lineage.

    Is that true in theory, or just in practice?

  272. @Bardon Kaldian
    This -dar stuff is intriguing. Personally, I'm lousy at it. Jewdar, gaydar.... I can't recognize Jews & gays, except in cases their looks & behavior is way too obvious.

    ‘This -dar stuff is intriguing. Personally, I’m lousy at it. Jewdar, gaydar…. I can’t recognize Jews & gays, except in cases their looks & behavior is way too obvious.’

    Gays I pick up on. Jews, no. It’s odd, because I’ve spent much of my life in an environment that was effectively at least a quarter Jewish. It’s just that until I became involved in the Israel issue, whether someone was Jewish or not simply wasn’t significant to me. They might as well have told they were Lutherans.

    A lot of Americans are still that way. Back in 2016 an interlocutor from North Carolina expressed surprise when I mentioned that Bernie Sanders was Jewish. North Carolina wasn’t just being politically correct, either. He’s perfectly capable of being spectacularly politically incorrect if he feels like it.

    Maybe now I’d be different. Israel has changed things.

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
    I suppose you mean politics (Israel etc.). I wasn't into anything that "deep". I just thought of facial features, gestures, mannerisms, pronunciation, perhaps gesticulation....

    I don't know many Jews (nor gays, for that matter). Just, to me, they're indistinguishable from the others.
  273. @Dmitry
    I've read Mountain Jews, Armenian Jews and Georgian Jews, are different races, with different ethnogenesis, and today do not marry between each other.

    Each has its own native language. Even young Mountain Jews are speaking in "Tat language" natively.

    Moreover, their appearance is different between each other. For example, Mountain Jews seem generally a darker race than Georgian Jews.

    Externally, the Mountain Jewish race appears quite similar to Northern Indian or Iranian races.


    I never met one, though an AJ from NY area told me they aren’t smart and don’t have a good reputation around NYC.

     

    According to Russian media - Mountain Jews are supposed to be the richest nationality in Russia today.

    However, this calculation is probably not accurate, if you know Russian census. In this census, you can write any nationality you want to be today (people can even write "Jedi").

    Most Mountain Jews, will surely write they are "Jews" in the census, instead of "Mountain Jews". While most people with Ashkenazi Jewish descent, will definitely write "Russian" in the census.

    As their number is underestimated in the census, the extent of their per capita wealth will be probably inflated.

    As their number is underestimated in the census, the extent of their per capita wealth will be probably inflated.

    This calculation was created by dividing publicly high net worth Mountain Jews, by the underestimated number of them in the census.

  274. @Jack D
    Not to mention deep fakes which will make it impossible to believe video. "I have it on film" will become meaningless as evidence of reality.

    I don’t know anything at all about the issue, but it seems highly unlikely to me that deep fakery can be done without leaving digital fingerprints that disclose it’s been tampered with, although not perhaps how it’s been altered.

  275. @Jack D
    Actually this whole thread demonstrates that people here are just full of strong opinions about Jews (a crowd favorite topic - any post involving Jews gets twice as many comments as non-Jew related comments) and most of those opinions bear little or no resemblance to reality.

    Actually this whole thread demonstrates that people here are just full of strong opinions about Jews (a crowd favorite topic – any post involving Jews gets twice as many comments as non-Jew related comments) and most of those opinions bear little or no resemblance to reality.

    Jack, I think you’re misinterpreting.

    People in lots of places are full of strong opinions about Jews, or, specifically, grossly disproportionate Jewish wealth/power/influence, as well as Jewish participation in radical social and political causes.

    It just happens to be the fact that Mr. Unz is one of the very few enlightened who will host such opinions and discussions rather than ruthlessly suppressing them.

    • Agree: Colin Wright
    • Replies: @Jack D
    The results are in - golf course talk - 19 comments. Jew talk - 262 comments. If Steve wants to keep his page hits up, ixnay on the olfgay oursecay talk.