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With Corporate American stridently celebrating Stonewall Pride on the 50th Anniversary of Gay Lib, it’s interesting to check whether anybody remembers anymore that Gay Liberation caused AIDS, an epidemic which was not centered in backwaters of homophobia, but instead spread from exactly where Gay Lib triumphed: Castro Street, Santa Monica Boulevard, and Christopher Street.

Or does everybody now believe AIDS was the fault of Ronald Reagan (or, for the more hep, Nancy Reagan)?

Let’s try a Google search:

 
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  1. Hail says: • Website

    Google hits for string “allowed AIDS to”:

    Implicated include: “[George H.W. Bush’s] inaction,” “lack of attention from the press,” “failure of the gay community to accept lifestyle changes,” “Reagan allowed AIDS to spread”, “government accountability,” and best of all: “homophobia, white supremacy, and income inequality.”

    [MORE]

    Jonathan Van Ness: George H.W. Bush’s ‘Inaction Allowed AIDS to …
    https://people.com › Politics
    Dec 6, 2018 – His inaction allowed the virus to spread, stigma to grow, and so many vulnerable people in the cold. … People died of HIV / AIDS when George HW Bush left office. … He served our country yes, but his hand guided so many towards HIV & stigma that still lasts today. … In a 1990 speech, Bush …

    Canadian Said to Have Had Key Role in Spread of AIDS – The New …
    https://www.nytimes.com/…/canadian-said-to-have-had-key-role-in-spread-of-aids.html
    Oct 7, 1987 – … lack of attention from the press and the initial failure of the gay community to accept changes in life style allowed AIDS to rage out of control in …

    Limbaugh: AIDS “hasn’t made that jump to the heterosexual community”
    https://www.mediamatters.org/research/2004/06/15/limbaugh-aids…to…/131271
    Jun 15, 2004 – … distorted a remark by syndicated columnist Robert Scheer that “Reagan allowed AIDS to spread,” erroneously accusing Scheer of stating that …

    Comments on An ounce of prevention | The Economist
    https://www.economist.com/node/21576375/comments
    As you note, lack of government accountability allowed AIDS to spread undetected for three decades and undiagnosed for ten more years. Public health …

    128th Annual Meeting (January 2-5, 2014): Local/National …
    https://aha.confex.com/aha/2014/webprogram/Session10352.html
    … scholars detail how homophobia, white supremacy, and income inequality have allowed AIDS to spread. Alternatively, the scholarship on responses to AIDS …

    • Replies: @BigDickNick
    white supremacy definitely causes people to put condom free dicks up their butts. It's one of the most well known built in features of white supremacy.
    , @foolisholdman
    In my opinion, the most probable cause of AIDS is the US military research department that asked congress in the 1970s (I think it was) for $10million to develop just such a virus. The leader of the group that did it was a Dr McArthur. The whole process and his research into it is described in some detail by the late Prof. Jakob Segal who was professor of Biology at Humboldt University. His writings on the subject were still readable on the internet last time I looked. He was, of course, well rubbished for saying that but never properly refuted. Anyway well worth a read, and to my mind convincing. The accounts of people who tried to get experts to confirm or refute Segal are also interesting.
    , @foolisholdman

    www.africa.upenn.edu/Urgent_Action/AIDS_Contract.html
     
    Most of the material written by Segal seems to have been suppressed but there is still this.
  2. , it’s interesting to check whether anybody remembers anymore that Gay Liberation caused AIDS, …

    Well AIDS was originally called GRID.

    Gay-related immune deficiency (GRID) was the original name for a disease currently known as AIDS. GRID was first mentioned in a May 11, 1982 article in the New York Times.[1] In this article, the term “A.I.D.” (Acquired Immunodeficiency Disease) is also mentioned. In the early days of AIDS (i.e., 1982–1985), the terms “gay cancer” and “gay plague” were also used.[2][3][4]

    • Replies: @TheMediumIsTheMassage
    I've seen this posted a lot on places like iSteve and its lower IQ counterparts (/pol/, Et. al.). Yes, it was called GRID because they thought it only happened in gay men. A few years later and 'GRID' became obsolete because they realized it was the same disease affecting drug users, Africans, haemophiliacs, etc. Nowadays the vast majority of people infected with HIV are not gay men.
    , @Reg Cæsar

    Well AIDS was originally called GRID.
     
    Gives a new twist to the phrase "living off the grid".

    One of the earliest recognized symptoms was referred to as Gay Bowel Syndrome. Try saying that today.
    , @Twodees Partain
    Well, you know, there's a new strain of AIDS. It's called "Hearing AIDS". You get from listening to assholes.
  3. What 1960s Movement caused the most deaths?

    Black Power? Gangs,Drugs, etc?

    Women’s Liberation? Abortion? Sacrificing family for career?

    Gay Pride? AIDS (Bad STDs in general?)

    Regardless, the numbers of each are pretty nasty.

    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
    Might as well include the Vietnam War in the list of "1960s Movements" by Americans:

    http://slideplayer.com/slide/4272931/14/images/20/Casualties+of+War+Category+Year+Range+Low+estimates+Medium+estimates.jpg

    We sometimes forget how that farce ripped us apart and exacerbated the other insanities to which you (correctly) allude.
    , @Gordon Shumway
    The Vietnam war?
    , @Haole2
    Global homo(homogenized) culture is a curse.
    , @Feryl
    Drugs are the worst. Adolescent drug use (and alcohol abuse) is associated with future pathology. Many drugs not only cause short to long term mental health harm to adults, but may be particularly harmful to developing young brains.

    Keep in mind also that drug running, and other criminal activity within the orbit of drug production and distribution, soared in the late 60's and 70's, in tandem with demand for drugs soaring (thanks a lot, Boomers). Many drug users were essentially putting money in the pockets of vicious criminals.

  4. Anonymous[170] • Disclaimer says:

    Been nice knowing you. Alas, now that you’ve told the cruel truth, you are toast.

    • Replies: @Kronos
    Naaa, that would be pretty gay.
  5. We want our immigrant food handlers to learn how to use our toilets, and how to wash their hands properly after they relieve themselves, because we have understood since the 19th Century the importance of isolating fecal matter to prevent it from getting back into the human body.

    Yet our “enlightened” utopian goofs throw all of this away when they enable fecally oriented gay sexual behavior which reverses generations of real progress in public health.

    • Agree: Kyle
  6. Steve, please don’t jump the shark. You know better than this. AIDS was caused by a great multitude of factors, not gays being able to somewhat live their lives without having to hide in fear of being thrown in jail/fired/etc in the 70s. We were still having sex in the decades prior, FYI. I’d encourage you to read ‘And the Band Played On’ by Randy Shilts, one of the definitive texts on the early days of the AIDS epidemic. The faults of many gay community leaders, bathhouse owners, etc. are laid bare in that book, but it’s far more than just them. The government and medical institutions failed to respond; the media failed to report on the topic, pressure the government for funds, and help deliver public health warnings; blood banks refused to heed warnings from scientists.

    If it had been treated the way Legionnaire’s Disease was a few years prior, the number of victims would have been enormously reduced, but it was essentially allowed to spread unchecked until the mid to late 80s. Gay community activists who put sexual liberation first and protested against bathhouse closure and widespread, direct public health campaigns are certainly to blame as well, but they were also operating from a place of (understandable) deep mistrust towards the government.

    At any rate, AIDS would have spread even if there hadn’t been any gay liberation because of African immigrants and intravenous drug users, in whom the spread of the disease was entirely separate from the gay community rooted in New York and San Francisco in the early 80s. The first cases in many European countries, for example, were in African immigrants. The disease was coming to America and the rest of the world no matter what. The long latent period of the virus (over 5 years on average) and the fact that the world was already quite globalized with constant air travel ensured that.

    Today, AIDS affects several orders of magnitude more people in Africa, which has nothing to do with gay liberation.

    • Disagree: Cloudbuster, Jus' Sayin'..., TWS
    • Replies: @Daniel H
    the media failed to report on the topic, pressure the government for funds, and help deliver public health warnings

    I was around 82-86 and it seemed to me then, as now, that the media was constantly advocating for government involvement, demanding that more research be done, etc..

    I also remember the efforts of Mayor Ed Koch in New York City to shut down those horrid dens of iniquity - the gay bathhouses - and getting a tsunami of a tantrum from gays who insisted that these sex joints must stay open and only a self-hating, closeted gay homophobe could recommend otherwise. Gays knew that thousands, upon thousands were being infected in these bathhouses but their access to easy, promiscuous sex trumped all other considerations.

    BTW, the very notion of a gay bathouse, where men engage in sexual activity with multiples of other men - one after the other, after the other, after the other.....- in a public setting, is disgusting, revolting. It is degrading. Behaviour unworthy of a human being.

    , @newrouter
    >Today, AIDS affects several orders of magnitude more people in Africa, which has nothing to do with gay liberation.<

    Africa ALWAYS wins.
    , @Wilkey
    Pretty much this. "And the Band Played On" (which served in 1993 as a vanity project for a long list of stars) and "The Normal Heart" (Mark Ruffalo and Jim Parsons) both lay a lot of blame on the government, which was certainly well-deserved. But they also are both pretty blunt about the refusal of many gays to accept the threat was real. They are both well worth watching. Despite the occasional political jab, the story of the first stages of the epidemic is just too fascinating to ignore.

    A big percentage of the most famous people to die from AIDS probably were infected after the disease was a known danger. AIDS was also referred to as 4H disease - for homosexuals, Haitians, heroin addicts and hemophiliacs. So yes, it would have spread absent gay liberation. But anyone who thinks venues that were more tolerated thanks to liberation, like the bathhouses, didn't serve as accelerants is just fooling themselves.
    , @Ghost of Bull Moose
    It is true that AIDS has nothing to do with homosexuality per se. But AIDS is associated with promiscuity. I've read a good bit of the Randy Shilts book, and some of the scenes described are almost beyond belief in their depravity. Now, many gay men pair off and live long lives and bully for them. But when older gay men reflect on how 8 of the 10 guys in this photo from Fire Island in 1980 are dead from AIDS, there's a reason for it.

    While there are promiscuous heterosexuals, it just isn't part of hetero culture the way it is for gay men. Anonymous sex with multiple partners just isn't as common. Heteros do not have glory holes, they do not host circuit parties, they do not cruise, they do not wander into the ramble in Central Park or the dunes of Fire Island looking for literally anyone to have sex with. There are no straight bug chasers. There are no straight bath houses or secret library bathrooms or whatever where straight people hook up. What Steve is saying is that this culture was de-stigmatized and even celebrated and this led directly to a much higher rate of AIDS among gay men. Not to mention the fact that gay men have a much higher rate of virtually every other STD.

    Studies of AIDS in Africa had to be redone because researchers realized that they couldn't just focus on male promiscuity; the women were also extremely promiscuous ( also, there are more 'men who have sex with men' who do not identify as gay in Africa). AIDS transmission is related to culture or lifestyle. Drug addicts have a culture, too, that lends itself to AIDS transmission.

    It's not coincidence that closing down the wrecks in the Hudson River near the Village and the bathhouses and a massive PR campaign encouraging gay men to be more responsible in their behavior led to a decrease in the rate of transmission. From the beginning of the PR campaign, another message was that this was not just a gay man's disease and that anyone could get it, Beckys and Chads in the suburbs would be infected in the 1,000s any day now. But that never happened, did it?
    , @Precious
    Today, AIDS affects several orders of magnitude more people in Africa, which has nothing to do with gay liberation.

    Most of your post is just making excuses, but this is flat out wrong.

    The testing for AIDS in Africa is a joke. Africans know that if they tell Westerners that they have a lot of malaria cases, they get a small trickle of money. But if they tell Westerners they have a lot of AIDS cases, then lots of money gets sent. So they have AIDS instead of the hundreds of other diseases that have been prevalent in Africa since time immemorial.
    , @Coag
    Legionnaires disease? Are you kidding me? That was spread through the air conditioning. How can that even be a comparison?

    AIDS was largely spread through sexual promiscuity and IV drug use. I’m pretty sure the Reaganites were on message against both those things throughout the 80s.
    , @Desiderius
    The band may have played on, but the captain and his crew abandoned ship.

    Don’t kid yourself.

    https://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/wild-west-male-sexual-desire-cormac-mccarthy-gay/
    , @Niccolo Salo
    "If it had been treated the way Legionnaire’s Disease was a few years prior, the number of victims would have been enormously reduced, but it was essentially allowed to spread unchecked until the mid to late 80s"

    Not with a 6 to 10 year latency period.
    , @Hippopotamusdrome


    If it had been treated the way Legionnaire’s Disease was a few years prior,

     

    Point counterpoint:


    In January 1977, the Legionella bacterium was finally identified and isolated ... This finding prompted new regulations worldwide for climate control systems.

     

    Legionella Guidelines, Standards, and Regulations

    Vs.

    Blood donation rules relaxed for gay men and sex workers

    For gay men donating blood, the discrimination isn’t over – yet

    ‘Unfair and discriminatory’ ban on gay men donating blood needs to change

    The Bigotry of Gay-Blood-Donation Bans
    , @peterike

    The government and medical institutions failed to respond; the media failed to report on the topic, pressure the government for funds, and help deliver public health warnings; blood banks refused to heed warnings from scientists.

     

    This is straight up idiocy. The media drumbeat on AIDS was non-stop. Of course, much of it was deliberate disinformation ("it's going to infect the straight community any day now!"), but to suggest there was some plot to keep the story hidden is ludicrous. It was inescapable.

    Politicians were carping about it all over the place. Demands for ever increased research funding were furious, as over-the-top as any 2019 SJW moral panic. The problem with the medical side was gay and Leftist opposition to sensible health procedures. The obvious response was to quarantine victims to stop the spread, but anyone who brought this up was immediately shouted down as a bigot by media and Liberal politicians. The medical response was 100% distorted by the politics of AIDS and was ineffective as a result. Gay activists and Liberals have tremendous amounts of blood on their hands.

    , @Louis Renault

    AIDS was caused by a
     
    AIDS is caused by a virus. The spread of it is something entirely different as the other commenters point out.
    , @JMcG
    If , say, breast cancer or prostate cancer had received the attention and funding that AIDS has, how many people would be alive now that have died from those diseases?
    After the initial innocents died from infected blood transfusions, no one has to contract AIDS any longer unless they wish to. That’s the cold hard fact.
    , @Jus' Sayin'...
    Around 1987 or so I was the lead epidemiologist/modeler on a team that was developing a model to forecast the ultimate cost of AIDS/HIV to the federal health care system. Based on that experience, I have several observations.

    First, the paucity of data available even then made it difficult to determine exactly what was going on. The insanely stupid privacy considerations still active today made it difficult to collect or obtain useful epidemiological data.

    Second, homosexual activists, then and now, are responsible for this.

    Third, homosexual activists were then still promoting the idea that AIDS/HIV was a disease to which all were susceptible and which sooner or later was going to spread throughout the population. The most widely used and publicized models of the spread of AIDS, in use at that time, adopted this idea and used a simple logistic model to predict the course of the disease. The numbers thus generated were ridiculously large and obviously of no predictive value. Yet these were used as official projections and estimates to promulgate the propaganda of homosexual activists.

    We developed a very different model based on two fundamental ideas:

    (1) AIDS/HIV was a slow virus and at the population level its spread was best modeled by some type of convolution equation, like a Lotka-Volterra Equation. In simpler terms, in individuals the course of the disease from infection, to onset of full blown symptoms, to death occurred over many years and this was reflected at the population level.

    (2) The spread of AIDS occurred in different ways and at different speeds in different populations, e.g., homosexuals, injection drug users, bisexuals, and the rest of the population. There would be very limited transmission across these different populations and essentially none into the general population.

    Our model predicted orders of magnitude less future HIV/AIDS infections, symptomatic cases, and deaths than the logistic models being used at the time. It was ignored and our federal contract officer wasn't pleased. Several years later the same officer informed us that he had gotten kudos when the projections of our model forward to that time were orders of magnitude more correct than the older logistic models. The software we had created was quietly adopted for future projections.

    This was my last work on AIDS/HIV. I've no idea how things have progressed since then. However, I still remember being amazed at how successfully the homosexual lobby was at obscuring the fundamental relation between homosexual behavior and AIDS, and this despite the further havoc such obscurantism wreaked within the broader homosexual community.
    , @Doobie
    Homosexual advocates like to say AIDS isn't a "gay" disease. BUT:

    In first-world countries the majority of people with AIDS acquired it through male homosexual acts. Other than IV-drug users, the vast majority of heterosexuals with AIDS got it from homosexuals, especially women having sex with homosexual men. Without homosexuals, AIDS would never have had a significant existence in the first-world. Indeed, homosexual men made AIDS an epidemic in America, as well as contributed disproportionately to the spread of other STDs.

    Purportedly, in Africa, AIDS is mostly a heterosexual disease. Africa isn't very relevant to America. And, it's not that Africa has a different HIV virus that America, so I don't accept that heterosexuals in Africa just have less luck, or whatever nonsense homosexual advocates would use to explain the difference. Either way, AIDS is easily avoidable through moral behavior and sanitary medical conditions.

    Moral behavior excludes homosexual acts.
    , @Nicholas Stix
    Wow. Just wow.

    The three biggest factors in the spread of AIDS were, in order of influence:
    Gay liberation;
    Gay liberation; and
    Gay liberation.

    Sex: During the 1970s, gay men were having anal sex with countless strangers a zillion times more often than before, in public places.

    Murder: When AIDS hit, numerous homosexuals became serial killers, deliberately infecting as many men as possible: Patient Zero, Rock Hudson, et al.

    Politics: Militant gay activists intimidated the public health authorities into throwing out rules (above all, forcible quarantine of people spreading plagues) that embodied hard-won knowledge accrued over the course of centuries. At the same time, gay activists and their political allies invented insane, malicious interpretations of “privacy” that caused the deaths of thousands of babies and their mothers. “Researchers” refused to tell new mothers that they were HIV+, so the mothers transmitted the virus to their babies through their breast milk. Mother and child would die a horrible, avoidable death.

    Hysteria: The homosexual “community’s” response: Blame Ronald Reagan. About a week after my August 26, 1985 return to America after five years in West Germany, I see a Hispanic guy dying of AIDS demonstrating on the evening news scream, “Ronald Reagan murdered me!”
    , @Dennis Dale
    The idea that African immigrants were a factor on a par with promiscuity is laughable.
    Though I do approve of one sacralized minority throwing another under the bus to preserve their privilege.
    More, please.
    , @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan
    You are a foolish person.
    , @guest
    There probably are homos in Africa, but okay. Why don't we try to find the commonality between Africans and homos which leave them susceptible to sex disease.

    Promiscuity (i.e. sex-craze), short horizon for future planning, willingness to live in squalor, fear of condoms.
    , @Grace Jones

    "The government and medical institutions failed to respond; the media failed to report on the topic, pressure the government for funds"
     
    That's the Narrative. It's a Big Lie. Federal funding for AIDS mushroomed from $14.5 million in 1983 to nearly a billion dollars in 1988. Nobody in history has ever gotten so much money so fast. It was all reported under big headlines in the mass media, too. Ronald Reagan was President, Bush was VP, and a Republican, Sen. Lowell Weicker Jr. of Connecticut, was chairman of the Appropriations Subcommittee that handled money bills for the Department of Health and Human Services. And it didn't happen because of a few demonstrations, but because the US military was concerned about the safety of its blood supplies. (They must be prepared to do battlefield blood transfusions directly from one man to another.)
    , @AnotherDad
    Medium, with all your obfuscation, you've actually made Steve's point--and more:

    If it had been treated the way Legionnaire’s Disease was a few years prior, the number of victims would have been enormously reduced, but it was essentially allowed to spread unchecked until the mid to late 80s. Gay community activists who put sexual liberation first and protested against bathhouse closure and widespread, direct public health campaigns are certainly to blame as well, but they were also operating from a place of (understandable) deep mistrust towards the government.
     

    Dindu nuffin--homo division.

    Boiled down you are asserting: we gays are entitled to (literally) screw up, generate a massive disease outbreak and you heteros have to fix it ... and fast!

    Now i think we white sciency guys are pretty dang awesome, but believe it or not we can not just snap our fingers and cure disease.

    Contra your bogus narrative, AIDS cases--as a definite epidemiological thing with homosexuals getting these rare cancers--in 1981 in New York. Popular press coverage was immediate--i read about it first in Newsweek about that time. The CDC realized that the syndrome affected mostly but not entirely homosexuals, including also heroin addicts, some Haitians (who at least claimed not to be homos) and hemophiliacs (i.e our blood supply was infected) and named it AIDS. In 1983 three teams indentified two different retrovirus strands as culprits--named HIV.

    However what we couldn't do is just snap our fingers and generate a cure. It wasn't a simple bacteria infection (and some of those are nightmares now), nor a simple viral infection, but this more tricky retro-virus. We still don't have a "cure" almost 40 years later. But certainly not for lack of spending.

    There was an incredible--incredibly bogus--propaganda campaign. Homosexuals were all cuddly innocent victims, who'd done nothing wrong, and "AIDS doesn't discriminate" and we're all going to die if we don't "cure AIDS".

    This was cover for an immediate and unbelievable and unprecedented spending binge on AIDS. Funding for AIDS exploded at the expense of basically everything else. Medical researchers had to twist and contort whatever work they were doing as AIDS related to try and get funding. All sorts of useful research--and development of research talent--across all other fields was dropped, hit the floor, orphaned, destroyed by the AIDS juggernaut. But again ...

    But what the government did not do was precisely take the public health measures that could stop the disease:
    -- close the bathhouses ... because the homo activists objected; because the bathhouses really are what lots of homos consider their liberation--to go out and stick their dicks in dozens of men in one night.
    -- quarantine carriers ... because that's "discrimination"
    -- do standard issue venereal disease tracking and partner notification -- cause that is "stigmatizing" and "discrimination"

    As a bunch of people--myself included--noted at the time--a PC wakeup call for many of us--AIDS was a disease with Civil Rights!

    That's your "government inaction"--all, i mean *all*, every last bit--because of homosexual whining that unfortunately politicians caved to.

    Contra to your narrative of normal people's indifference and inaction--completely false--homosexuals could have stopped this easily:
    -- stopping anal sodomy (just give each other blow jobs)
    -- stop promiscuity, just be monogamous
    -- using condoms; just using condoms!
    -- stopping cruising, stopping high promiscuity
    -- even just closing bathhouses!!! seriously, just closing bathhouse/bathhouse multipartner orgy culture would have put a huge dent in the AIDS epidemic.

    Any serious movement to take these steps would have shut this thing down completely--crater the spread, hence the epidemic--... and you homos refused to do it.

    For the homo, nothing--nothing!--was more important than jamming his dick bareback into a random strangers rectums. That's why we had an AIDS epidemic. No other reason--just that.

    , @foolisholdman

    AIDS was caused by a great multitude of factors,
     
    AIDS is caused by a virus which is a product of the US Military's research labs and was produced by fusing two viruses together. A virus which affects sheep, visna, which makes them sleepy and weak and a virus which affects humans giving them a blood cancer. Congress voted $10million for this research in the mid '70s and the resulting virus was tested on prisoners who were serving life sentences, with the promise that if they agreed to this injection they would be freed if nothing happened after a year. The year expired and they were released, near Ney York. and then they started to fall ill. The rest is history and a cover-up which continues to this day.

    Google (or use some better search engine) "Was there an AIDS contract?"

  7. @istevefan

    , it’s interesting to check whether anybody remembers anymore that Gay Liberation caused AIDS, ...
     
    Well AIDS was originally called GRID.

    Gay-related immune deficiency (GRID) was the original name for a disease currently known as AIDS. GRID was first mentioned in a May 11, 1982 article in the New York Times.[1] In this article, the term "A.I.D." (Acquired Immunodeficiency Disease) is also mentioned. In the early days of AIDS (i.e., 1982–1985), the terms "gay cancer" and "gay plague" were also used.[2][3][4]

     

    I’ve seen this posted a lot on places like iSteve and its lower IQ counterparts (/pol/, Et. al.). Yes, it was called GRID because they thought it only happened in gay men. A few years later and ‘GRID’ became obsolete because they realized it was the same disease affecting drug users, Africans, haemophiliacs, etc. Nowadays the vast majority of people infected with HIV are not gay men.

    • Replies: @Michael S
    It basically does occur only in gay men. I forget the exact number, but I believe it was something like a black, gay man being 60 times more likely to contract HIV than a white heterosexual man. Remove the black, and it's still 20 or 30 times more likely.

    Not percent. Times. Gay men have about 95% of the AIDS, with gay black men being about 75% of that.

    I am hardly convinced that the spread of HIV in Africa isn't also related to homosexual behavior there; it's just much harder to track.
    , @Half Canadian
    Men-who-have-sex-with-men are vastly over represented in HIV infections. Given that they are <3% of the population, it would be surprising if they were the majority.
    , @prime noticer
    "Nowadays the vast majority of people infected with HIV are not gay men."

    yes they are.

    here comes some homo trying to pretend that african men who have sex with other men aren't gay.

    GTFO. why do we have to deal with these people even here?

    african men who have sex with other men and sex with women too is where 50% of the new infections come from, pretty much. i've actually studied this.

    , @anon
    You know that HIV in the US is primarily a disease among MSM. It is secondarily associated with IV drug use transgressive behaviors like IV Drug abuse. And not surprisingly blacks. It is essentially absent in white males who don't have MSM and don't abuse IV drugs.

    The vast majority of HIV in the US is among MSM.
    , @Achmed E. Newman
    Mr. Massage, you have pretty good comments on other subjects. You can't go bullshitting people on here though.
    , @Louis Renault
    Thanks for pointing out that

    originally called
     
    means just that. Looks like you need to lose a few IQ points to understand reality.
    , @Jus' Sayin'...
    Denial is not just a river in Africa.
    , @res

    Nowadays the vast majority of people infected with HIV are not gay men.
     
    Citation? In the US that is certainly not the case.

    https://www.hiv.gov/hiv-basics/overview/data-and-trends/statistics

    Gay and bisexual mend are the population most affected by HIV. In 2017:

    Gay and bisexual men accounted for 66% (25,748) of all HIV diagnoses and 82% of HIV diagnoses among males.e
    Black/African American gay and bisexual men accounted for the largest number of HIV diagnoses (9,807), followed by Hispanic/Latinos (7,436) and whites (6,982).

    ...

    Heterosexuals and people who inject drugs also continue to be affected by HIV. In 2017:

    Heterosexuals accounted for 24% of HIV diagnoses.f
    Heterosexual men accounted for 7% (2,829) of HIV diagnoses.
    Heterosexual women accounted for 16% (6,341) of HIV diagnoses.
    People who inject drugs accounted for 6% of HIV diagnoses.
     
    These numbers become more dramatic if you look at them per capita (~4.5% LGBT in US).
    , @Art Deco
    Nowadays the vast majority of people infected with HIV are not gay men.

    The Centers for Disease Control reports that 3/4 of new cases diagnosed are among homosexual and bisexual men. Better make sure they get the memo.

    https://www.cdc.gov/hiv/statistics/overview/ataglance.html
    , @Olorin
    No, "they" did not "call it GRID because they thought it only happened in gay men."

    "They" "called it GRID" because men who had sex with men were the population in whom this syndrome was first seen, reported, and then tracked...to the men they had sex with.

    It was called "gay-related" because it literally was seen only among gay men. The name was reported in the NY in the fall of 1982 IIRC, and I have that precision of memory because of...certain specificities...involving individuals in my first-semester grad school department.

    The strategy that queer-industry leaders (including ActUP and Gay Men's Health Crisis) used was to inflate the threat that HIV/AIDS posed to all people, not just the MSMs (men who have sex with men) who were responsible for the plague with which they killed themselves...and one another.

    And, I know from infuriating observation here and there, with which they killed confused, lost, and innocent heartland kids, many underage.

    In insisting that it "wasn't a gay disease," and in pumping fear into Mr. and Mrs. America via the MSM (mainstream media, with much overlap with the other kind of MSM) that everybody was at risk, they found over time, and to their chagrin, that the latter cared more for their own families than a bunch of suicidal/homicidal degenerates on Christopher and Castro Streets, and similar places.

    Today, reclaiming AIDS as a "gay disease" is at the forefront of various funding- and attention-getting strategies launched during Obama's administration. One example (and don't read it unless you have the stomach for blackpill):

    As gay and bisexual men were dropping dead in the mid-1980s, political strategists realized they had to make a choice. Acknowledge that the epidemic was disproportionately impacting gay and bisexual men — a despised minority in the U.S. — or reposition the epidemic as a threat to every American.

    The political choice was to re-cast the threat of the epidemic. By changing the discussion about HIV from what gay and bisexual men were doing sexually to the risk of “innocent” victims — like Ryan White, Kimberly Bergalis, and others (all of whom were white and heterosexual) — Congress was unable to ignore the crisis anymore. They could no longer paint the epidemic as the result of the exotic lives of gay and bisexual men.

    In 1990, the political calculation paid off with Congress passing the Ryan White CARE Act and unleashing a flood of federal dollars to AIDS service organizations, most of them created by and for gay and bisexual men. The de-gaying was complete.

    When the right wing claims HIV was a gay disease, gay leaders recoiled in rage. HIV, they said, was everyone’s problem. In a big picture snapshot that is accurate. But in the U.S. it’s a lie. The virus is safely encamped in the bodies of men who have sex with other men (a term of epidemiology coined by scientists, which makes trans women — deeply affected by HIV — invisible in the epidemic).

    Author John-Manuel Androite says that in the mid-'80s a national coalition called National Organizations Responding to AIDS (NORA) made a decision — a deliberate decision — that echoes even today in how the U.S. addresses HIV.

    “What they did was they framed the discussion about HIV for lawmakers in terms of public health; as a public health crisis, not a gay community crisis per se,” Andriote says. “What they did, very intentionally, was to emphasize the impact of HIV on non-gay people, specifically women and children.”

    Androite authored the book Victor Deferred: How AIDS Changed Gay America, which tracks the political impact of the epidemic on the LGBT rights movement.

    “Unfortunately, the unexpected impact or effect of that de-gaying strategy was that the federal government was very happy to pay attention and focus resources on women and kids,” he says. “But the attitude was still that gay men could sort of fend for themselves.”

    At that point, he says, the national LGBT organizations which participated in the NORA coalition, felt their part in addressing the epidemic was over, and could “move on to issues that affect the rest of us, marriage equality in particular, and that just dominated the political discourse for quite some time. Until today I would say.”

    This happened at time when two-thirds of people living with HIV in the U.S. were gay or bisexual men; just as it is today, he points out.
     
    https://www.hivplusmag.com/opinion/guest-voices/2014/02/19/listen-hiv-still-gay-disease?pg=full
  8. From page 131 – 132 of “And the Band Played On” by Randy Shilts, (gay) reporter for the San Francisco Chronicle – “A typical GRID case had sex with 1,100 men in his lifetime…”, from research by the CDC from the mid 1980s.

    Who knew this or reported it? I never heard it from any source – until I read the book.
    (GRID, later HIV – AIDS, Gay related immune disorder.) What I heard in college was that gays who got AIDS or HIV were no more promiscuous than straights.

    • Replies: @PiltdownMan

    From page 131 – 132 of “And the Band Played On” by Randy Shilts, (gay) reporter for the San Francisco Chronicle – “A typical GRID case had sex with 1,100 men in his lifetime…”, from research by the CDC from the mid 1980s.

    Who knew this or reported it? I never heard it from any source – until I read the book.
    (GRID, later HIV – AIDS, Gay related immune disorder.) What I heard in college was that gays who got AIDS or HIV were no more promiscuous than straights.

     

    I recall that the common assumption in the 1970s among everyday straight folk in New York City, was that the gay baths and the Christopher Street gay scene were insanely promiscuous. The '80s band Erasure did a nostalgia song/lament about the pre-AIDS era of gay "free" love.

    https://youtu.be/6J2OlIpQgF8

    , @anon19
    Gays (in general) are vastly more promiscuous then straights. It is not a difference in degree. It is a difference in kind. The very nature of the gay lifestyle makes it so. I recall once reading a study that the average gay man had had 200 sexual partners by the age of forty.

    However this wanton behaviour is (generally) not true of Lesbians. They tend to be the opposite.
    , @gregor
    That number is also quoted in the 1982 NYT GRIDs article. We don’t know the exact numbers today and probably will never be told, but it’s undoubtedy high.

    The CDC actually has published transmission rates by risk factor and the risk is far lower than what most would assume. The risk of transmission from a woman to a man is only 4 per 10,000 exposures. Receptive anal intercourse is the highest risk sexual practice and even that is only 138 per 10,000 exposures. Needless to say the number of “exposures” must be quite high. This would mean that on average you’d expect someone to have taken around six dozen poz loads before becoming infected, plus they’ve presumably had “neg” partners, etc. So the partner count is likely in the hundreds.

    Of course, in Hollywood movies like Philadelphia, Tom Hanks is in a committed relationship and gets HIV from a single instance of infidelity. Riiiiiight.

    https://www.cdc.gov/hiv/risk/estimates/riskbehaviors.html
    , @Marcus
    They refused to tone down their hyper-promiscuous lifestyle despite warnings in the 1980s. Also Stonewall was a mafia operation, which is why it was raided, not homophobia.
    , @South Texas Guy
    Back when in the early 90s, you could still find some college 101 sociology (or other social science textbooks) that would acknowledge the fact that gay men were incredibily promiscuous. I imagine that info is now reserved for grad students.

    Oh, and I don't trust what gay men say on this issue, only what I've observed among gays I know, is that there is no such thing as a monogamous male gay couple.
    , @ben tillman

    From page 131 – 132 of “And the Band Played On” by Randy Shilts, (gay) reporter for the San Francisco Chronicle – “A typical GRID case had sex with 1,100 men in his lifetime…”, from research by the CDC from the mid 1980s.

    Who knew this or reported it? I never heard it from any source – until I read the book.
     
    The Shilts book and this quote were pretty widely discussed on Usenet 20 years ago.
    , @guest
    Was knowledge of gay promiscuity lost for a convenient 19-20 year window? Because it has been common knowledge since* and was certainly common knowledge before.

    *Unless Gay Marriage is the subject under discussion, in which case we all pretend they're even better than heteros.
  9. I seem to recall that leftist intellectuals used to worry about how the modern capitalist society causes “alienation” in human relationships, and they speculated that their programs of social engineering would reverse this situation to allow for healthy human interactions again.

    But then look at what their gay client group does: Gay men engage in alienating sexual encounters with strangers, usually in seedy venues, and usually without bothering to learn names and engage in basic social rituals to become acquainted. They objectify the male body, when heterosexual men allegedly engage in patriarchal oppression when we objectify the female body. And the ones with passports and money travel to impoverished diversitarian countries so that they can exploit the local boys and young men for sex.

    You just don’t hear a peep from leftist thinkers about how gay men’s real behavior shows the dysfunctions of modernity. If anything, they tend to celebrate this degrading spectacle.

    • Replies: @neprof
    The first of the seven deadly sins:

    Pride is excessive belief in one's own abilities, that interferes with the individual's recognition of the grace of God. It has been called the sin from which all others arise.

    Ironic the Gay movement uses Pride as its moniker.

  10. There’s a flawed documentary which will be dismissed because of its production values and its purpose (discussing fringe theories about AIDS). However, it has must-see interviews with gay men who survived the liberated urban gay scene, talking with humble frankness and no boasting about what was happening. Short expurgated version: the availability of penicillin and the felt triumph of gay liberation meant that men were proudly bugchasing. There was a notion that unrestrained hedonism was downright noble cultural warfare against what Keith Haring would later call “control.” Heteros had this too but were slowed down by chicks.
    It also has a sequence in which free AIDS test sites are far more likely to diagnose if they think the patient is gay, but they cannot “read” gay tells across cultures (the guy says “I’m straight” and then pointedly breaks the fourth wall; the nurse buzzes along contentedly).

    • Replies: @anon19
    Would you be so kind as to tell us what this documentary was called? Sounds interesting.
    , @Ris_Eruwaedhiel
    I read in the past that some homosexuals were "bugchasers" because they thought that being HIV-positive was to be authentically homosexual. They also thought that they would be otherwise healthy (!) with proper medication. I don't know if this is still true.

    A major reason for the general breakdown of sexual self-restraint over the past century was the successful use of penicillin to treat venereal disease during WWII. For the first time in history, picking up a venereal disease was no big deal - get a shot and it'll go away. You can imagine what kind of effect that had on some GIs morals.
  11. @Kronos
    What 1960s Movement caused the most deaths?

    Black Power? Gangs,Drugs, etc?

    Women’s Liberation? Abortion? Sacrificing family for career?

    Gay Pride? AIDS (Bad STDs in general?)

    Regardless, the numbers of each are pretty nasty.

    Might as well include the Vietnam War in the list of “1960s Movements” by Americans:

    We sometimes forget how that farce ripped us apart and exacerbated the other insanities to which you (correctly) allude.

    • Agree: JMcG, Hibernian
    • Replies: @anon19
    The worst damage of the "1960's movements" was immigration "reform". The 1965 immigration act was and is the true destroyer of America. The Vietnam war has come and gone but demographic changes are permanent. What if America today was still 86% white as it was in 1965?
    , @Lucas McCrudy
    I bit OT but to repsond to your posting:
    I've always felt (as do many historians) that LBJ decided to "escalate" US involvment in Vietnam to provide himself with political cover against accusations that he was soft on Communism. But what Vietnam inadvertently did was serve as a recruiting tool for the New Left in the 60s to draw in disaffected young men (and their female allies) who were understandably angered and outraged over this travesty of a war which should have never occured in the first place.
  12. @Anonymous
    Been nice knowing you. Alas, now that you've told the cruel truth, you are toast.

    Naaa, that would be pretty gay.

  13. @TheMediumIsTheMassage
    I've seen this posted a lot on places like iSteve and its lower IQ counterparts (/pol/, Et. al.). Yes, it was called GRID because they thought it only happened in gay men. A few years later and 'GRID' became obsolete because they realized it was the same disease affecting drug users, Africans, haemophiliacs, etc. Nowadays the vast majority of people infected with HIV are not gay men.

    It basically does occur only in gay men. I forget the exact number, but I believe it was something like a black, gay man being 60 times more likely to contract HIV than a white heterosexual man. Remove the black, and it’s still 20 or 30 times more likely.

    Not percent. Times. Gay men have about 95% of the AIDS, with gay black men being about 75% of that.

    I am hardly convinced that the spread of HIV in Africa isn’t also related to homosexual behavior there; it’s just much harder to track.

    • Replies: @Jim Christian

    Not percent. Times. Gay men have about 95% of the AIDS, with gay black men being about 75% of that.
     
    You're chronicling a whole new Great White Hope. Small wonder they keep those stats out of sight.
    , @doxmenot
    The reason AIDS is present in heterosexuals in the third world (but rarely spread heterosexually in the first world) is explained by the poor health of third worlders. A prostitute or client or citizen in the third world is far more likely to have untreated diseases such as syphilis or gonorrhea or other conditions. This makes men and women more susceptible to AIDS transmission in the third world.

    In first world countries men rarely contract AIDS from women in ordinary sex acts. Randy Shilts talks of the rarity of heterosexual transmission of AIDS to men in his book "And the Band Played On", (published about 1987).

    The MSM and the University, and religious groups are content to hide this information. How many people have heard this thirty years after Shilts's NYT "bestselling" book?
    , @Dumbo
    I've read once that the AIDS numbers in Africa were all fake and created mostly to get more money from the West with a disease that was "popular" among celebrities at the time. But most were really dying of other diseases.

    I think it makes sense, because now we hear less about the problem of AIDS in Africa and we hear about other things such as Ebola, etc.

    That said, I think that AIDS was mostly related to gay sex, drug use, and general unhealthy lifestyles. I'm not even convinced that HIV is the main culprit, there are a few other theories.
    , @Skyler_the_Weird
    AIDS in Africa was caused by the practice of reusing hypodermic needles for inoculation and vaccinations.
    , @Bill B.
    In Africa untreated general diseases exacerbated by the African penchant for dry sex (unlubricated intercourse) that is held to be more rewarding. African prostitutes are said to use powders to dry the necessary machinery for the benefit of their clients.
    , @JMcG
    Rape is a big one there. Anything that causes open wounds in mucous tissue will do it.
    , @ben tillman

    I am hardly convinced that the spread of HIV in Africa isn’t also related to homosexual behavior there; it’s just much harder to track.
     
    Before hypothesizing about the "spread of HIV in Africa", you should first confirm that there is such a phenomenon about which to hypothesize. Last I heard, "AIDS" in Africa is diagnosed without an HIV test.
  14. CCZ says:

    There is always the search the promotes the inverse:

    “How the advent of AIDS advanced gay rights.”

    When AIDS struck, priorities changed, and quickly, from hedonism to survival. And, ironically, the advent of AIDS probably advanced gay rights more than anything else in history.

    “HIV-AIDS changed public perceptions a lot: It showed a more humane side of the community,” says Ed Jackson, director of program development at Canadian AIDS Treatment Information Exchange, and a longtime activist. “It also galvanized gay men into being more active and more visible. It brought people out of the closet.”

    Mr. Jackson said the large number of HIV-positive men, and the often-overlooked contributions of many lesbian women who cared for the sick, forced members of the gay community to interact with the system, instead of living on the margins. In fact, many of the early battles that mobilized the community were about seemingly mundane issues such as the right to visit partners in hospital (people were refused access because they were not considered immediate family, even if they were in long-term relationships), taking time off to be with loved ones who were sick and dying and claiming insurance benefits.

    Gay rights came incrementally as these battles were waged before administrative tribunals and the courts and, in the process, gay and lesbian couples became more mainstream.

    “We went from being marginalized as sick people to being normalized,” Mr. Jackson says. “Along the way, a lot of desires became mainstreamed; we wanted to be like everybody else, which is why you saw a push for things like gay marriage.

    https://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/health-and-fitness/health/how-the-advent-of-aids-advanced-gay-rights/article20083869/

    • Replies: @Pericles
    The most damning part is perhaps after the medicine for holding back HIV had been developed at huge public expense: the 'gays' (oh yes, so joyous!) resumed and expanded their habits, they lobbied government into paying for their pills but also into giving them disability for contracting this eminently non-contractable disease, and, of course, in San Francisco giving someone HIV is no longer a crime.

    "Pride", huh.
    , @Anonymous

    ironically, the advent of AIDS probably advanced gay rights more than anything else in history
     
    It certainly advanced the cash flow of gay-managed & affiliated nonprofits-- the AIDS economy was very good for the NYC rich-people-dressing-up-to-show-their-concern industry. Also funneled a lot of L.A. media wealth to "educators," politicians, gallery owners, etc.

    "Money doesn't talk, it swears"
  15. https://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-hosts-biggest-ever-gay-121341794.html;_ylt=AwrC1C7dpRhdUTsARjiZmolQ;_ylu=X3oDMTBydDI5cXVuBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwM2BHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzcg&#8211;

    Ukraine hosts biggest ever gay pride parade

    By Natalia Zinets

    KIEV (Reuters) – Ukrainian politicians and foreign diplomats joined thousands marching in a gay pride parade in Kiev on Sunday…

    Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskiy, a former comedian who took office last month (Jewish Comedian Elected President of Ukraine in Landslide Victory https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/general/1718026/jewish-comedian-elected-president-of-ukraine-in-landslide-victory.html ), has promoted a tolerant culture, saying he stands for all people’s equality and freedom.

    “Our desire is to convey to a majority of people that LGBT is normality,” Eduard, a 17-year-old tattoo artist, told Reuters…

    Under Western-backed leadership, Ukraine’s parliament passed legislation in 2015 to ban discrimination in the workplace as part of a series of laws Ukraine needed to pass to qualify for a visa-free travel agreement with the European Union…

    The government has increased support for LGBT rights since a Western-backed leadership came to power in 2014, but critics say homophobic attitudes remain relatively widespread.

    “homophobic attitudes remain relatively widespread”

    You’d better hide these attitudes lest your new master detects them and quickly makes an example out of you and mercilessly destroys you. Enjoy the globalism, lol, you’re the West’s little bitch now, Ukraine.

    • Replies: @Alfa158
    Prediction:
    Next phase will be using Ukraine as a dumping ground for overflow of third world immi-vaders.
    , @Daniel H
    Jewish Comedian Elected President of Ukraine in Landslide Victory

    This is not true. It is impossible. Don't you believe Julia Ioffe? She will assure you that the pogrom was nipping at her and her family's heels when they boarded that plane to DC (the plane was supposed to go to Tel Avis, wasn't it? I mean all the political and emotional capital spent on the refuseniks was due to their sincere desire to make aliyah.) and those that didn't make it onto the flight were all consumed. There are no Jews in the former Soviet Union, and even if there are some, they are doing miserably, and even if they are not doing miserably and are billionaires they must put up with false charges that they made their fortunes swindling state assets, and all the Ukranians and Russians hate Jews, and, and, and. Just believe Julia Ioffe, OK.

    , @Jake
    Stupid as all chicken shot anti-Russian Ukrainians: endless Gay Pride parades and rule by Jews who hate for your ethnicity and your religious heritage are what you get when you bow to the US and the UK, when you bow to the Anglo-Zionist Empire.
    , @Clyde
    we need a wft button at Unz
  16. Actually Ronald Reagan being a complete scumbag and the white Christian power structure in the 80s caused aids epidemic in the gay community

    • Replies: @Mr. Anon

    Actually Ronald Reagan being a complete scumbag and the white Christian power structure in the 80s caused aids epidemic in the gay community
     
    Yes, Tiny, I well remember Ed Meese and Jerry Falwell sneaking, Ninja-like, into the bath houses of New York City and Frisco, and injecting homosexuals with hypodermic needles full of AIDS-juice. Sometimes Robert Schuller and Billy Graham would join them in their murderous antics. When they weren't forcing Margaret Atwood to wear a red robe and brood-mare little evangelical babies into the World, that is.

    Truly, it was a dark, dark time.

    , @MattinAZ
    Gay man: I'm going to have sex with a bunch of men.
    Christian: Don't. It's wrong and you'll get AIDS.
    Gay man: You ignorant bigot! AIDS isn't a gay disease.
    [Gay man has sex with a bunch of men, gets AIDS.]
    Gay man: It's Christians' fault I got AIDS! Also, it's Ronald Reagan's fault there isn't a cure for AIDS.
    , @Kronos
    How?
    , @Ron Mexico
    Do you ever have a thought of your own?
    , @guest
    Nice try. Irishmen like Reagan aren't white. Academia told me so.
    , @Buck Ransom
    And it had nothing at all to do with gay men visiting "The Trucks," which were 18-wheelers parked along the West Side Highway at the foot of Christopher Street in NYC. The trucks' trailers were left open at the back, and gay men would just climb aboard and have anonymous sex with anyone else who happened to be there. Some, of course, would have multiple encounters with multiple strangers on a single visit. And this was all flourishing in the 1970s, post-Stonewall, while the evil Ronald Raygun was still riding his horses in Santa Barbara -- although the fun would have continued into the early years of his presidency when GRIDS
    became a thing.
    , @Trutherator
    Oh yeah, tiny duck, Christian's made you visit bathhouses and diddle around as much as you could, right. Well I remember how it was. Christian's held you at gunpoint and forced you to mix sperm and feces and all the rest, and tear up your rectum.

    Christian's were warning and were the loudest voices demanding the same treatment for AIDS as for others one doctor even wrote a book, where he said n the title that this was the first "politically protected disease".

    I remember one guy who was arrested for spreading it to as many as he could, he said, and spit on the officer who arrested him, besides.

    I met a guy there in Miami, missionary, who was part of an evangelical community that cared for dying gays when nobody else would come near them, including their gay "friends". Jesus Christ, St. Francis being shining examples of that kind of love.
    , @MBlanc46
    “Scumbag”? Really? Not up to your usual standards, TD.
  17. @doxmenot
    From page 131 - 132 of "And the Band Played On" by Randy Shilts, (gay) reporter for the San Francisco Chronicle - "A typical GRID case had sex with 1,100 men in his lifetime...", from research by the CDC from the mid 1980s.

    Who knew this or reported it? I never heard it from any source - until I read the book.
    (GRID, later HIV - AIDS, Gay related immune disorder.) What I heard in college was that gays who got AIDS or HIV were no more promiscuous than straights.

    From page 131 – 132 of “And the Band Played On” by Randy Shilts, (gay) reporter for the San Francisco Chronicle – “A typical GRID case had sex with 1,100 men in his lifetime…”, from research by the CDC from the mid 1980s.

    Who knew this or reported it? I never heard it from any source – until I read the book.
    (GRID, later HIV – AIDS, Gay related immune disorder.) What I heard in college was that gays who got AIDS or HIV were no more promiscuous than straights.

    I recall that the common assumption in the 1970s among everyday straight folk in New York City, was that the gay baths and the Christopher Street gay scene were insanely promiscuous. The ’80s band Erasure did a nostalgia song/lament about the pre-AIDS era of gay “free” love.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Interesting post

    I used to hear this song all the time (about 88-89) and never associated it with the homosexual lifestyle. I don't remember any of my friends mentioning it either. I wonder if such a fact could go unnoticed by audiences in this social media era.
  18. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:

    Gay liberation did not “cause AIDS” but it certainly did further its spread by orders of magnitude in the US and Europe.

    A corollary is that it may well have stopped what could have been a massive dieoff in sub-Saharan Africa, because without Western intervention and medical technology hurriedly developed because gays were influential and had many resources diverted to AIDS research, the problem there might have quietly spread until a really huge number of SSAs were infected and would die off.

    Whether this was good or bad depends, of course…..

  19. @TheMediumIsTheMassage
    Steve, please don't jump the shark. You know better than this. AIDS was caused by a great multitude of factors, not gays being able to somewhat live their lives without having to hide in fear of being thrown in jail/fired/etc in the 70s. We were still having sex in the decades prior, FYI. I'd encourage you to read 'And the Band Played On' by Randy Shilts, one of the definitive texts on the early days of the AIDS epidemic. The faults of many gay community leaders, bathhouse owners, etc. are laid bare in that book, but it's far more than just them. The government and medical institutions failed to respond; the media failed to report on the topic, pressure the government for funds, and help deliver public health warnings; blood banks refused to heed warnings from scientists.

    If it had been treated the way Legionnaire's Disease was a few years prior, the number of victims would have been enormously reduced, but it was essentially allowed to spread unchecked until the mid to late 80s. Gay community activists who put sexual liberation first and protested against bathhouse closure and widespread, direct public health campaigns are certainly to blame as well, but they were also operating from a place of (understandable) deep mistrust towards the government.

    At any rate, AIDS would have spread even if there hadn't been any gay liberation because of African immigrants and intravenous drug users, in whom the spread of the disease was entirely separate from the gay community rooted in New York and San Francisco in the early 80s. The first cases in many European countries, for example, were in African immigrants. The disease was coming to America and the rest of the world no matter what. The long latent period of the virus (over 5 years on average) and the fact that the world was already quite globalized with constant air travel ensured that.

    Today, AIDS affects several orders of magnitude more people in Africa, which has nothing to do with gay liberation.

    the media failed to report on the topic, pressure the government for funds, and help deliver public health warnings

    I was around 82-86 and it seemed to me then, as now, that the media was constantly advocating for government involvement, demanding that more research be done, etc..

    I also remember the efforts of Mayor Ed Koch in New York City to shut down those horrid dens of iniquity – the gay bathhouses – and getting a tsunami of a tantrum from gays who insisted that these sex joints must stay open and only a self-hating, closeted gay homophobe could recommend otherwise. Gays knew that thousands, upon thousands were being infected in these bathhouses but their access to easy, promiscuous sex trumped all other considerations.

    BTW, the very notion of a gay bathouse, where men engage in sexual activity with multiples of other men – one after the other, after the other, after the other…..- in a public setting, is disgusting, revolting. It is degrading. Behaviour unworthy of a human being.

    • Replies: @El Dato

    I was around 82-86 and it seemed to me then, as now, that the media was constantly advocating for government involvement, demanding that more research be done, etc..
     
    Yup, once it started it didn't stop.

    Quite scary too as no-one knew anything and maybe they were hiding easy transmission?

    BTW, the very notion of a gay bathouse, where men engage in sexual activity with multiples of other men – one after the other, after the other, after the other…..- in a public setting, is disgusting, revolting. It is degrading. Behaviour unworthy of a human being.
     
    drugs & sex are prime directives for some.
    , @Dr. X

    BTW, the very notion of a gay bathouse, where men engage in sexual activity with multiples of other men – one after the other, after the other, after the other…..- in a public setting, is disgusting, revolting. It is degrading. Behaviour unworthy of a human being.
     
    100%. I think gays should be involuntarily committed to mental institutions for life where they are drugged into a catatonic stupor.

    The fact that these sick people practically control the corporate and political structures of our society (along with a certain Middle Eastern Tribe), and their perversion is openly celebrated, is proof positive that our society is collapsing a into a new Dark Age as we speak.

    , @Ris_Eruwaedhiel
    It was observed at the at the time that for the first time in history, a fatal disease had civil rights.

    Ironic that Gays have achieved acceptance, considering that they are probably the most disease-ridden group in the world. In an earlier age, their general hedonism, which includes heavy drinking, drugs and smoking, would have doomed them to an early death, as well as universal social opprobrium.
    , @JMcG
    Agreed 100%. I think 60 minutes did a show on how AIDS infected gays were quarantined in Cuba. The cognitive dissonance among my lefty acquaintances was palpable.
  20. AIDS spread due to causal sex in bath houses in Los Angeles, SF and NY.

  21. @TheMediumIsTheMassage
    Steve, please don't jump the shark. You know better than this. AIDS was caused by a great multitude of factors, not gays being able to somewhat live their lives without having to hide in fear of being thrown in jail/fired/etc in the 70s. We were still having sex in the decades prior, FYI. I'd encourage you to read 'And the Band Played On' by Randy Shilts, one of the definitive texts on the early days of the AIDS epidemic. The faults of many gay community leaders, bathhouse owners, etc. are laid bare in that book, but it's far more than just them. The government and medical institutions failed to respond; the media failed to report on the topic, pressure the government for funds, and help deliver public health warnings; blood banks refused to heed warnings from scientists.

    If it had been treated the way Legionnaire's Disease was a few years prior, the number of victims would have been enormously reduced, but it was essentially allowed to spread unchecked until the mid to late 80s. Gay community activists who put sexual liberation first and protested against bathhouse closure and widespread, direct public health campaigns are certainly to blame as well, but they were also operating from a place of (understandable) deep mistrust towards the government.

    At any rate, AIDS would have spread even if there hadn't been any gay liberation because of African immigrants and intravenous drug users, in whom the spread of the disease was entirely separate from the gay community rooted in New York and San Francisco in the early 80s. The first cases in many European countries, for example, were in African immigrants. The disease was coming to America and the rest of the world no matter what. The long latent period of the virus (over 5 years on average) and the fact that the world was already quite globalized with constant air travel ensured that.

    Today, AIDS affects several orders of magnitude more people in Africa, which has nothing to do with gay liberation.

    >Today, AIDS affects several orders of magnitude more people in Africa, which has nothing to do with gay liberation.<

    Africa ALWAYS wins.

  22. Let’s not forget the Haitians, who along with gays were thought to be carriers of AIDS, and were thought to have contracted the disease–let’s see now, was it from eating monkeys or having sex with pigs, or perhaps both? Anyway, I remember back at the very beginning of public awareness about AIDS, the following joke:

    Q. What is the worst thing about having AIDS?
    A. Having to tell your mother you had sex with a Haitian!

    When it became clear that AIDS was spread through anal sex and sharing needles, the joking stopped. And the Haitians were exonerated.

    • Replies: @Hippopotamusdrome, @Jim Christian

    Q. What is the worst thing about having AIDS?
    A. Having to tell your mother you had sex with a Haitian!
     
    There were a slew of them. One of the all-time greats:
    Q: What do you call a queer in a wheelchair?
    A: Roll-AIDS.
    , @Anon
    What's wrong with Haitians? Some, I assume, are good men.
    , @jay
    "The Anus IS NOT a sex organ" as some would say.
    , @Jim Don Bob
    AIDS was caused by the 4 H's: homos, heroin, haitians, and hemophiliacs.
    , @Discordiax
    Haiti was incredibly poor (generating refugees level poor), and was apparently a popular destination for sex tourism, gay and straight. Which created a disease vector among Haitians. Gay men, IV drug users, Haitians and prostitutes were the four "high risk groups" when we first started knowing anything about AIDS.
    , @Macumazahn
    The way I heard it was a little better:
    Q. What is the worst thing about having AIDS?
    A. Trying to convince your mother that you're a Haitian!
    , @OSweet
    I remember that joke, but told a little differently:

    Q. What's the worst thing about having AIDS?
    A. Trying to convince your parents you're Haitian.

  23. The new thing around here is signs when you enter a town that say, “Proud To Be Stigma Free”. No one learns.

  24. @TheMediumIsTheMassage
    I've seen this posted a lot on places like iSteve and its lower IQ counterparts (/pol/, Et. al.). Yes, it was called GRID because they thought it only happened in gay men. A few years later and 'GRID' became obsolete because they realized it was the same disease affecting drug users, Africans, haemophiliacs, etc. Nowadays the vast majority of people infected with HIV are not gay men.

    Men-who-have-sex-with-men are vastly over represented in HIV infections. Given that they are <3% of the population, it would be surprising if they were the majority.

    • Replies: @gcochran
    They are, though. In the US, ~55% of cases
    , @ben tillman
    Yet they are, and that shouldn't be surprising.
    , @Anonymous
    From the CDC on HIV in the United States and Dependent Areas:

    - Gay and bisexual men are the population most affected by HIV. In 2017, gay and bisexual men accounted for 66% (25,748) of all HIV diagnoses and 82% of diagnoses among males.

    - In 2017, heterosexuals accounted for 24% of HIV diagnoses.

    - In 2017, people who inject drugs accounted for 6% of HIV diagnoses.

    - African Americans accounted for 43% (16,694) of HIV diagnoses and 13% of the population.

    - Hispanics/Latinos accounted for 26% (9,908) of HIV diagnoses and 18% of the population.

    https://www.cdc.gov/hiv/statistics/overview/ataglance.html

  25. Looking back, some of us should be kinda pissed off about the whole gAIDS scare.

    Some of us active heterosexuals were so freaked out by the propaganda that we were getting AIDS tests just to make sure everything was all right. Media encouraged us to do so. Now we realize that it was all unnecessary and there was no reason for us to worry — because all we were doing was putting the right parts together, and with reasonable numbers of partners too.

    Thanks for putting a turd in our punchbowl, fags.

    I knew two different homosexual men who died of AIDS. I never knew anybody who even knew someone who knew someone who knew a heterosexual person who got it, much less died of it. It simply didn’t happen, not through sex anyway.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    I never knew anybody who even knew someone who knew someone who knew a heterosexual person who got it
     
    Oh, come on. I'm sure you're within four degrees of separation of Isaac Asimov, Arthur Ashe, or Tom Fogerty.

    It simply didn’t happen, not through sex anyway.
     
    Well, okay, a valid qualifier. These guys got it from another variety of penetration.
    , @Colin Wright
    ' ...I never knew anybody who even knew someone who knew someone who knew a heterosexual person who got it, much less died of it. It simply didn’t happen, not through sex anyway...'

    Indeed. I wonder what the odds actually are of contracting AIDS if you're not black, not gay, don't use intravenous drugs, and don't have sex with anyone who is in those categories.

    ...I suspect you might as well worry about shark attack.
    , @Larry
    @ Buzz Mohawk---a brief reply to your prejudiced, knee-jerk comments : First off, do your Homework, Buzz---Gay people had NOTHING TO DO with the Aids epidemic !!! "Aids" is a GOVERNMENT-SPONSORED disease, created in a test tube, and, it is even registered with the U.S. Patent office, believe it or not !! So, therefore ANYBODY is capable of coming down with this disease, from what I have learned. Hope this information has woke you up, and enlightened you, somewhat. Take care.
  26. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:

    NASCAR driver Tim Richmond probably got AIDS from a female prostitute, and there were a couple of other such cases, but they were miniscule in number as opposed to homosexual ones.

  27. Is there an affinity between AIDS and gays and Africans other than promiscuity (higher average number of partner of the group and perhaps more anal intercourses ) ?

    Because straight people having more sex doesn’t result individually in high chances of getting aid. So it must be something related to the level of promiscuity of the group.

    I read that in big cities where dating apps are used, number of STD among straight people has soared to gay levels. So my guess it’s that the group promiscuity average, more than medical idiosyncrasies of blacks and gays, causes std.

    • Replies: @anon

    Is there an affinity between AIDS and gays and Africans other than promiscuity (higher average number of partner of the group and perhaps more anal intercourses )
     
    You are missing IV drug abuse. AAs are vastly overrepresented in the sex trade and drugs.
    , @Saxon
    The anus easily gets teared in a way that leaves open access to the bloodstream quite easily. So gay "bottoms" get "pozzed" (their term) quite easily if they are having anal sex with infected men. They also do weird stuff like eat other's asses which has led to all sorts of disgusting stuff like getting parasites and the Giardia thing from a couple years back.

    Similarly, the rates of infection are different between heterosexual men and women. The vagina can get such tears as well though not as easily, but heterosexual men are much less likely to be infected because it's much harder for a man to contract this disease than a woman due to the specifics of biology involved. Even if a heterosexual man has unprotected sex with an HIV-infected woman he only has a small percent chance of actually getting it. How heterosexual women get diseases in general is that they are offering up virtual harems to infected but attractive men. This is another reason why promiscuity tends to be bad. This is also reflected in the fact that women always have higher rates of diseases than the men of their own racial group.

    Heterosexual white and east Asian men tend to have the lowest rates of all diseases because of a combination of biology and low time preference, high impulse control.

    I highly doubt the levels of STDs among heterosexuals is anywhere near gays, but it probably has gone up within big cities and with dating apps since what you see is a more pronounced Pareto distribution of a small percentage of men getting most of the sex and some of them can act as disease vectors. Gays have much higher numbers of sex partners but also there's the biological issue I mentioned previously there as well.
    , @nokangaroos
    IIRC Africans do catch it more easily while Europeans have some kind of cross-resistance dating from the Black Death.
    Pooter poking produces more microtraumata (read: bleeding) and eases transmission.

    And then there´s the famous Kenyan public health campaign
    "Warning! AIDS is contracted through normal heterosexual intercourse!"
    (it seems heteros had been feeling safe)
    As a result the local whores only took it in the rear, and the rates exploded.
    , @Achmed E. Newman
    You are making a bad inference there because you are missing underlying facts, Bruno. That is, the method of transmission is different with AIDS vs. the common other STDs. AIDS is transmitted via blood. No blood exchanges "hands" during regular sex, but the common STDs of course can be transmitted.

    Gay sex, OTOH, involves, well, I don't want to get into details, but more blood can be mixed ...

    It'd stand to reason that when straight people are promiscuous, the common STDs would spread around, but AIDs would not. For Gay people, I suppose it could be both, but I think many STDs involve the women parts more, as they are like moist, comfortable petri dishes.
    , @Carol
    There was an old crank virologist at Berkeley who claimed African AIDS was just a renaming of third world diseases SSAs have always gotten, and that the level of HIV has always been rather constant.

    He said e.g. that Africans didn't tend to get Kaposi's Sarcoma. I don't know if that's true.

    The purpose of the renaming was to create hysteria, pour more money into Africa and get them to wear condoms. You see how that worked out.

    Anyway, Prof. Deusburg as been duly quarantined by the university.

    , @JMcG
    Anecdotally true. A LOT of the young guys I work with have had syphilis and/or gonorrhea. I was stricken dumb when I heard them discussing it once. It didn’t seem to faze them in the slightest.
    What a mess we’ve made of things.
  28. @J.Ross
    There's a flawed documentary which will be dismissed because of its production values and its purpose (discussing fringe theories about AIDS). However, it has must-see interviews with gay men who survived the liberated urban gay scene, talking with humble frankness and no boasting about what was happening. Short expurgated version: the availability of penicillin and the felt triumph of gay liberation meant that men were proudly bugchasing. There was a notion that unrestrained hedonism was downright noble cultural warfare against what Keith Haring would later call "control." Heteros had this too but were slowed down by chicks.
    It also has a sequence in which free AIDS test sites are far more likely to diagnose if they think the patient is gay, but they cannot "read" gay tells across cultures (the guy says "I'm straight" and then pointedly breaks the fourth wall; the nurse buzzes along contentedly).

    Would you be so kind as to tell us what this documentary was called? Sounds interesting.

    • Replies: @Lugash
    Probably 'House of Numbers'. It's on Youtube in various forms. Parts are interesting, but it's HIV science denialist crap overall.
  29. it’s also causing untreatable STDs.

    new STDs are appearing as well. infections that were barely known, or never detected before 10 or 20 years ago.

    • Replies: @Beliavsky
    "it’s also causing untreatable STDs.

    new STDs are appearing as well. infections that were barely known, or never detected before 10 or 20 years ago."

    Could you provide references?
  30. @Anon000

    https://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-hosts-biggest-ever-gay-121341794.html;_ylt=AwrC1C7dpRhdUTsARjiZmolQ;_ylu=X3oDMTBydDI5cXVuBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwM2BHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzcg--

    Ukraine hosts biggest ever gay pride parade

    https://thebridgenewsservice.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/ukraine-hosts-biggest-ever-gay-pride-parade.png

    By Natalia Zinets

    KIEV (Reuters) - Ukrainian politicians and foreign diplomats joined thousands marching in a gay pride parade in Kiev on Sunday...

    Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskiy, a former comedian who took office last month (Jewish Comedian Elected President of Ukraine in Landslide Victory https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/general/1718026/jewish-comedian-elected-president-of-ukraine-in-landslide-victory.html ), has promoted a tolerant culture, saying he stands for all people's equality and freedom.

    "Our desire is to convey to a majority of people that LGBT is normality," Eduard, a 17-year-old tattoo artist, told Reuters...

    Under Western-backed leadership, Ukraine's parliament passed legislation in 2015 to ban discrimination in the workplace as part of a series of laws Ukraine needed to pass to qualify for a visa-free travel agreement with the European Union...

    The government has increased support for LGBT rights since a Western-backed leadership came to power in 2014, but critics say homophobic attitudes remain relatively widespread.
     
    “homophobic attitudes remain relatively widespread”

    https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2019/06/23/13/wire-15145408-1561291785-26_634x452.jpg

    You’d better hide these attitudes lest your new master detects them and quickly makes an example out of you and mercilessly destroys you. Enjoy the globalism, lol, you’re the West’s little bitch now, Ukraine.

    Prediction:
    Next phase will be using Ukraine as a dumping ground for overflow of third world immi-vaders.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    They wouldn't go there: No welfare state.
  31. @TheMediumIsTheMassage
    I've seen this posted a lot on places like iSteve and its lower IQ counterparts (/pol/, Et. al.). Yes, it was called GRID because they thought it only happened in gay men. A few years later and 'GRID' became obsolete because they realized it was the same disease affecting drug users, Africans, haemophiliacs, etc. Nowadays the vast majority of people infected with HIV are not gay men.

    “Nowadays the vast majority of people infected with HIV are not gay men.”

    yes they are.

    here comes some homo trying to pretend that african men who have sex with other men aren’t gay.

    GTFO. why do we have to deal with these people even here?

    african men who have sex with other men and sex with women too is where 50% of the new infections come from, pretty much. i’ve actually studied this.

    • Replies: @Pericles

    here comes some homo trying to pretend that african men who have sex with other men aren’t gay.

     

    I actually think there is something of a point there: there is a segment of men who, how shall we put it, 'belong to the MSM' but are not part of the 'gay culture' and indeed refuse to identify as 'gay'. Obvious example is POCs in prison, I guess, but presumably it's a common attitude among those.

    (Another question is whether those africans really have AIDS, which I'm skeptical about, or just generic ill health.)
    , @TheMediumIsTheMassage
    I'll have to look up statistics again. Thank you for caring so much about gay men though, it's really heartwarming to see all this outpouring of support towards the gay community. They're the majority of HIV cases after all right?

    And no, I will not GTFO. Unfortunately for you, you will have to deal with "these people" here, at your job, in your government, in your media, at your children's school, at your local bar, in the street, maybe even one of your kids will turn out gay and there is literally nothing you can do to predict, prevent, or stop it. We are everyday people from every walk of life, every social class, race, ethnicity, nationality. We exist and we will not go quietly into that good night.

  32. @Buzz Mohawk
    Might as well include the Vietnam War in the list of "1960s Movements" by Americans:

    http://slideplayer.com/slide/4272931/14/images/20/Casualties+of+War+Category+Year+Range+Low+estimates+Medium+estimates.jpg

    We sometimes forget how that farce ripped us apart and exacerbated the other insanities to which you (correctly) allude.

    The worst damage of the “1960’s movements” was immigration “reform”. The 1965 immigration act was and is the true destroyer of America. The Vietnam war has come and gone but demographic changes are permanent. What if America today was still 86% white as it was in 1965?

    • Replies: @Kronos
    Perhaps, but I’m referring to movements that caused direct deaths. AIDS deaths, gang-related deaths, abortions, Vietnam War casualties. Something that will be listed on the death certificate. ( Or for abortion a CDC report.) Immigration had a indirect effect on the rise of prescription pain-killer deaths (read the book “Dreamland.”) Immigration levels are ludicrous, but not the best fit for this question.
    , @Craig Nelsen
    On the evening the 1965 immigration act was signed into law on Liberty Island in New York Harbor, there were huge celebrations across New York City. It was celebrated as a great Jewsh victory over the gentiles.

    Never forget.
  33. @istevefan

    , it’s interesting to check whether anybody remembers anymore that Gay Liberation caused AIDS, ...
     
    Well AIDS was originally called GRID.

    Gay-related immune deficiency (GRID) was the original name for a disease currently known as AIDS. GRID was first mentioned in a May 11, 1982 article in the New York Times.[1] In this article, the term "A.I.D." (Acquired Immunodeficiency Disease) is also mentioned. In the early days of AIDS (i.e., 1982–1985), the terms "gay cancer" and "gay plague" were also used.[2][3][4]

     

    Well AIDS was originally called GRID.

    Gives a new twist to the phrase “living off the grid”.

    One of the earliest recognized symptoms was referred to as Gay Bowel Syndrome. Try saying that today.

    • Replies: @Jim Christian

    One of the earliest recognized symptoms was referred to as Gay Bowel Syndrome. Try saying that today.
     
    They're saying it today, only quietly and with another motive. Ever notice all the commercials for new scrips and OTC remedies for all sorts of bowel disorders all the way out to a slew of HepC drugs being pushed out? The fisting/anal sex/glory-hole disorders are showing themselves in all sorts of ways, not the least being commercial, especially with women as frequent targets of the advertising for such 'remedies'.

    Reagan was responsible for AIDS only in that he didn't outlaw gay bathhouses and orgies and double down on public health announcements telling the truth of these activities.
    , @ken
    I know everyone is scared of Big Gay and now Corporate Gay, but I'm always amazed that the medical community is so silent on the damage from anal penetration.
  34. @Michael S
    It basically does occur only in gay men. I forget the exact number, but I believe it was something like a black, gay man being 60 times more likely to contract HIV than a white heterosexual man. Remove the black, and it's still 20 or 30 times more likely.

    Not percent. Times. Gay men have about 95% of the AIDS, with gay black men being about 75% of that.

    I am hardly convinced that the spread of HIV in Africa isn't also related to homosexual behavior there; it's just much harder to track.

    Not percent. Times. Gay men have about 95% of the AIDS, with gay black men being about 75% of that.

    You’re chronicling a whole new Great White Hope. Small wonder they keep those stats out of sight.

    • Replies: @Kronos
    Choo Choo!

    https://youtu.be/Qide-OHPyy0
  35. @Michael S
    It basically does occur only in gay men. I forget the exact number, but I believe it was something like a black, gay man being 60 times more likely to contract HIV than a white heterosexual man. Remove the black, and it's still 20 or 30 times more likely.

    Not percent. Times. Gay men have about 95% of the AIDS, with gay black men being about 75% of that.

    I am hardly convinced that the spread of HIV in Africa isn't also related to homosexual behavior there; it's just much harder to track.

    The reason AIDS is present in heterosexuals in the third world (but rarely spread heterosexually in the first world) is explained by the poor health of third worlders. A prostitute or client or citizen in the third world is far more likely to have untreated diseases such as syphilis or gonorrhea or other conditions. This makes men and women more susceptible to AIDS transmission in the third world.

    In first world countries men rarely contract AIDS from women in ordinary sex acts. Randy Shilts talks of the rarity of heterosexual transmission of AIDS to men in his book “And the Band Played On”, (published about 1987).

    The MSM and the University, and religious groups are content to hide this information. How many people have heard this thirty years after Shilts’s NYT “bestselling” book?

    • Replies: @prime noticer
    "The reason AIDS is present in heterosexuals in the third world (but rarely spread heterosexually in the first world) is explained by the poor health of third worlders."

    that's part of it. but the main part is that HIV rates track sex rates pretty well. homos have the most sex, they collect most of the HIV. africans have the most sex, they collect most of the HIV. african men who have sex with men are the people who have the most sex of all, and well, there you go. highest HIV rate.

    east asians have the least amount of sex, and have very low STD transmission rates. dirt poor people in south asia and southeast asia don't have nearly the HIV rate of africans. or the murder rate. hmm.

    i'd say it's a pretty good bet that very high HIV rates in africa...are from african men having sex with anything that moves. other men, women, all get HIV from these guys. nobody wants to go there or talk about that, but that's probably the biggest factor. a lot of them have so much sex it's hard to comprehend for first worlders.

    this is not the only thing that's going on, but like the murder rate, that's the biggest factor going on. wherever the africans go, the HIV and murder rate follow. it's pretty reliable. doesn't have to be a third would country. africans in first world countries exhibit all these trends.
    , @Colin Wright
    'The reason AIDS is present in heterosexuals in the third world (but rarely spread heterosexually in the first world) is explained by the poor health of third worlders...'

    No, it's a black thing, not a poor thing. AIDS rates in Africa are literally an order of magnitude higher than they are anywhere else, and that includes lots of non-black third-world countries.
  36. @Charles_Martel
    Let's not forget the Haitians, who along with gays were thought to be carriers of AIDS, and were thought to have contracted the disease--let's see now, was it from eating monkeys or having sex with pigs, or perhaps both? Anyway, I remember back at the very beginning of public awareness about AIDS, the following joke:

    Q. What is the worst thing about having AIDS?
    A. Having to tell your mother you had sex with a Haitian!

    When it became clear that AIDS was spread through anal sex and sharing needles, the joking stopped. And the Haitians were exonerated.

  37. @TheMediumIsTheMassage
    Steve, please don't jump the shark. You know better than this. AIDS was caused by a great multitude of factors, not gays being able to somewhat live their lives without having to hide in fear of being thrown in jail/fired/etc in the 70s. We were still having sex in the decades prior, FYI. I'd encourage you to read 'And the Band Played On' by Randy Shilts, one of the definitive texts on the early days of the AIDS epidemic. The faults of many gay community leaders, bathhouse owners, etc. are laid bare in that book, but it's far more than just them. The government and medical institutions failed to respond; the media failed to report on the topic, pressure the government for funds, and help deliver public health warnings; blood banks refused to heed warnings from scientists.

    If it had been treated the way Legionnaire's Disease was a few years prior, the number of victims would have been enormously reduced, but it was essentially allowed to spread unchecked until the mid to late 80s. Gay community activists who put sexual liberation first and protested against bathhouse closure and widespread, direct public health campaigns are certainly to blame as well, but they were also operating from a place of (understandable) deep mistrust towards the government.

    At any rate, AIDS would have spread even if there hadn't been any gay liberation because of African immigrants and intravenous drug users, in whom the spread of the disease was entirely separate from the gay community rooted in New York and San Francisco in the early 80s. The first cases in many European countries, for example, were in African immigrants. The disease was coming to America and the rest of the world no matter what. The long latent period of the virus (over 5 years on average) and the fact that the world was already quite globalized with constant air travel ensured that.

    Today, AIDS affects several orders of magnitude more people in Africa, which has nothing to do with gay liberation.

    Pretty much this. “And the Band Played On” (which served in 1993 as a vanity project for a long list of stars) and “The Normal Heart” (Mark Ruffalo and Jim Parsons) both lay a lot of blame on the government, which was certainly well-deserved. But they also are both pretty blunt about the refusal of many gays to accept the threat was real. They are both well worth watching. Despite the occasional political jab, the story of the first stages of the epidemic is just too fascinating to ignore.

    A big percentage of the most famous people to die from AIDS probably were infected after the disease was a known danger. AIDS was also referred to as 4H disease – for homosexuals, Haitians, heroin addicts and hemophiliacs. So yes, it would have spread absent gay liberation. But anyone who thinks venues that were more tolerated thanks to liberation, like the bathhouses, didn’t serve as accelerants is just fooling themselves.

    • Replies: @Jim Christian

    But anyone who thinks venues that were more tolerated thanks to liberation, like the bathhouses, didn’t serve as accelerants is just fooling themselves.
     
    I often wondered after the AIDS thing got rolling how many of the hundreds of thousands of sailors aboard the carriers and other ships that visited African continent cities and countries from Alexandria to Tunis and Senegal in the 70s and 80s for tattoos and sex contributed to the problem once back home. That factor ouldn't have helped but introduce/spread the disease, especially to the wives and girlfriends..
    , @doxmenot
    The movie “And the Band Played On” was a propaganda piece.

    The book was, intentional or not, a long slog, making it difficult to "see the trees for the forest", (reversing the phrase).

    Shilts told the truth but hid the truth in the book. The movie was useless. Tim Richmond may have contracted AIDS from intravenous drug injections. He was a drug user. A healthy heterosexual man getting AIDS from even an HIV positive woman through vaginal sex or a bj is practically unknown. "If you don't have a sore, you won't get it thru heterosexual contact." Magic Johnson had sex with trans women and probably men. (But it doesn't pay for one to be complacent and take risks.)

    The powers that be have kept us in the dark. Shows their power.

    , @Autochthon
    https://youtu.be/d6PGB6Nj2-s

    Both the book and its adaptation affirm the debauchery was indeed the problem. This scene has a good mix of the downright self-destructive patrons, the willfully ignorant enabler running the place, the condescending Jewess who wants to feign interest for appearances' sake but not actually do anything (for politics' sake), and the disinterested, horrified man with a practical bent too baffled by it all to even be effective. (Where can he even begin to sort out the shit-show he is confronting him at every turn? He is hopelessly trying to get a city full of bonobos to stop schtupping each other long enough for him to explain the rudimentary epidemiology to them they should have learned in their fifth-grade health classes....)

    The idea it was all about the Evil Apathetic Gubmint is a kind of projected value, made even worse now than it was at the time.

    That phenomenon of projection is common. A major analogue now is the adults on the planet saying "There are too many people and not enough resources for them; misery and destruction are accelerating – the savages must stop having ten children per couple!" with the stupid masses selectively hearing and projecting into it their own agenda. ("Hear, hear! Exactly right! We need to recycle more; use solar power; and let all the starving people into Europe, Australia, and North America, because those three continents have magically inexhaustible resources....")

    Likewise here. The book's point was "These people all acted irresponsibly, then went on doing so even as the chickens were coming home to roost, exacerbating the problem exponentially." But it became in the popular (stupid) mindset "Look how the government, whose job it is to solve all the problems in the world, let one happen – obvi its because they are bigoted against homosexual men, whom everyone knows are paragons of virtue, self-control, and responsibility! This book and film totes called The Man to account!"
  38. @Anon000

    https://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-hosts-biggest-ever-gay-121341794.html;_ylt=AwrC1C7dpRhdUTsARjiZmolQ;_ylu=X3oDMTBydDI5cXVuBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwM2BHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzcg--

    Ukraine hosts biggest ever gay pride parade

    https://thebridgenewsservice.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/ukraine-hosts-biggest-ever-gay-pride-parade.png

    By Natalia Zinets

    KIEV (Reuters) - Ukrainian politicians and foreign diplomats joined thousands marching in a gay pride parade in Kiev on Sunday...

    Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskiy, a former comedian who took office last month (Jewish Comedian Elected President of Ukraine in Landslide Victory https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/general/1718026/jewish-comedian-elected-president-of-ukraine-in-landslide-victory.html ), has promoted a tolerant culture, saying he stands for all people's equality and freedom.

    "Our desire is to convey to a majority of people that LGBT is normality," Eduard, a 17-year-old tattoo artist, told Reuters...

    Under Western-backed leadership, Ukraine's parliament passed legislation in 2015 to ban discrimination in the workplace as part of a series of laws Ukraine needed to pass to qualify for a visa-free travel agreement with the European Union...

    The government has increased support for LGBT rights since a Western-backed leadership came to power in 2014, but critics say homophobic attitudes remain relatively widespread.
     
    “homophobic attitudes remain relatively widespread”

    https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2019/06/23/13/wire-15145408-1561291785-26_634x452.jpg

    You’d better hide these attitudes lest your new master detects them and quickly makes an example out of you and mercilessly destroys you. Enjoy the globalism, lol, you’re the West’s little bitch now, Ukraine.

    Jewish Comedian Elected President of Ukraine in Landslide Victory

    This is not true. It is impossible. Don’t you believe Julia Ioffe? She will assure you that the pogrom was nipping at her and her family’s heels when they boarded that plane to DC (the plane was supposed to go to Tel Avis, wasn’t it? I mean all the political and emotional capital spent on the refuseniks was due to their sincere desire to make aliyah.) and those that didn’t make it onto the flight were all consumed. There are no Jews in the former Soviet Union, and even if there are some, they are doing miserably, and even if they are not doing miserably and are billionaires they must put up with false charges that they made their fortunes swindling state assets, and all the Ukranians and Russians hate Jews, and, and, and. Just believe Julia Ioffe, OK.

  39. @TheMediumIsTheMassage
    Steve, please don't jump the shark. You know better than this. AIDS was caused by a great multitude of factors, not gays being able to somewhat live their lives without having to hide in fear of being thrown in jail/fired/etc in the 70s. We were still having sex in the decades prior, FYI. I'd encourage you to read 'And the Band Played On' by Randy Shilts, one of the definitive texts on the early days of the AIDS epidemic. The faults of many gay community leaders, bathhouse owners, etc. are laid bare in that book, but it's far more than just them. The government and medical institutions failed to respond; the media failed to report on the topic, pressure the government for funds, and help deliver public health warnings; blood banks refused to heed warnings from scientists.

    If it had been treated the way Legionnaire's Disease was a few years prior, the number of victims would have been enormously reduced, but it was essentially allowed to spread unchecked until the mid to late 80s. Gay community activists who put sexual liberation first and protested against bathhouse closure and widespread, direct public health campaigns are certainly to blame as well, but they were also operating from a place of (understandable) deep mistrust towards the government.

    At any rate, AIDS would have spread even if there hadn't been any gay liberation because of African immigrants and intravenous drug users, in whom the spread of the disease was entirely separate from the gay community rooted in New York and San Francisco in the early 80s. The first cases in many European countries, for example, were in African immigrants. The disease was coming to America and the rest of the world no matter what. The long latent period of the virus (over 5 years on average) and the fact that the world was already quite globalized with constant air travel ensured that.

    Today, AIDS affects several orders of magnitude more people in Africa, which has nothing to do with gay liberation.

    It is true that AIDS has nothing to do with homosexuality per se. But AIDS is associated with promiscuity. I’ve read a good bit of the Randy Shilts book, and some of the scenes described are almost beyond belief in their depravity. Now, many gay men pair off and live long lives and bully for them. But when older gay men reflect on how 8 of the 10 guys in this photo from Fire Island in 1980 are dead from AIDS, there’s a reason for it.

    While there are promiscuous heterosexuals, it just isn’t part of hetero culture the way it is for gay men. Anonymous sex with multiple partners just isn’t as common. Heteros do not have glory holes, they do not host circuit parties, they do not cruise, they do not wander into the ramble in Central Park or the dunes of Fire Island looking for literally anyone to have sex with. There are no straight bug chasers. There are no straight bath houses or secret library bathrooms or whatever where straight people hook up. What Steve is saying is that this culture was de-stigmatized and even celebrated and this led directly to a much higher rate of AIDS among gay men. Not to mention the fact that gay men have a much higher rate of virtually every other STD.

    Studies of AIDS in Africa had to be redone because researchers realized that they couldn’t just focus on male promiscuity; the women were also extremely promiscuous ( also, there are more ‘men who have sex with men’ who do not identify as gay in Africa). AIDS transmission is related to culture or lifestyle. Drug addicts have a culture, too, that lends itself to AIDS transmission.

    It’s not coincidence that closing down the wrecks in the Hudson River near the Village and the bathhouses and a massive PR campaign encouraging gay men to be more responsible in their behavior led to a decrease in the rate of transmission. From the beginning of the PR campaign, another message was that this was not just a gay man’s disease and that anyone could get it, Beckys and Chads in the suburbs would be infected in the 1,000s any day now. But that never happened, did it?

    • Agree: GermanReader2, Kylie
    • Replies: @Jim Christian

    Beckys and Chads in the suburbs would be infected in the 1,000s any day now. But that never happened, did it?
     
    What DID take place was/is a result of rampant bisexuality.
    , @Reg Cæsar

    From the beginning of the PR campaign, another message was that this was not just a gay man’s disease and that anyone could get it, Beckys and Chads in the suburbs would be infected in the 1,000s any day now. But that never happened, did it?
     
    Shilts himself said that this "never made any sense".

    Before it was the "anally injected death sentence" seen on countless restroom stall walls, it was "anyone interested in deviant sodomy?"
    , @james wilson
    Four paragraphs without stating that when AIDS is transmitted sexually it is exclusive to anal intercourse. That would have been a fine public service announcement in 1985, but it is still a subject that can't be mentioned.
    , @Bardon Kaldian

    While there are promiscuous heterosexuals, it just isn’t part of hetero culture the way it is for gay men. Anonymous sex with multiple partners just isn’t as common.
     
    I would just add this is common also of bisexuals & sometimes of straight men, but not in such a measure. I remember reading Prince Kropotkin's memoirs & a deliberate salacious stuff like Casanova's memoirs or Suetonius' lives of Caesars.

    As Tacitus had said abut these types of people:
    http://classics.mit.edu/Tacitus/annals.6.vi.html

    And so died Tiberius, in the seventy eighth year of his age. Nero was his father, and he was on both sides descended from the Claudian house, though his mother passed by adoption, first into the Livian, then into the Julian family. From earliest infancy, perilous vicissitudes were his lot. Himself an exile, he was the companion of a proscribed father, and on being admitted as a stepson into the house of Augustus, he had to struggle with many rivals, so long as Marcellus and Agrippa and, subsequently, Caius and Lucius Caesar were in their glory. Again his brother Drusus enjoyed in a greater degree the affection of the citizens. But he was more than ever on dangerous ground after his marriage with Julia, whether he tolerated or escaped from his wife's profligacy. On his return from Rhodes he ruled the emperor's now heirless house for twelve years, and the Roman world, with absolute sway, for about twenty-three. His character too had its distinct periods. It was a bright time in his life and reputation, while under Augustus he was a private citizen or held high offices; a time of reserve and crafty assumption of virtue, as long as Germanicus and Drusus were alive. Again, while his mother lived, he was a compound of good and evil; he was infamous for his cruelty, though he veiled his debaucheries, while he loved or feared Sejanus. Finally, he plunged into every wickedness and disgrace, when fear and shame being cast off, he simply indulged his own inclinations.
     
    , @Hypnotoad666

    While there are promiscuous heterosexuals, it just isn’t part of hetero culture the way it is for gay men.
     
    The problem with hetero promiscuity is you have to find a willing, f***able female. This involves a lot more time and effort than boring a glory hole in a bathroom stall.

    There doesn't seem to be any challenge at all to homosexuality. That's the problem.
    , @Hypnotoad666
    I think the politically correct response to AIDS was just another manifestation of the constant that is progressive thinking.

    The progressive mind seems to always focus on symbolism, narratives, and virtue signalling at the expense of reality.

    So all the progressive effort was put into "destigmatizing" AIDS victims and treating the disease as a civil rights issue. They didn't worry so much, however, about taking the actual steps necessary to minimize the death toll.

    If the disease, by contrast, had struck only, say, little girls, we would have imposed an emergency quarantine or whatever other steps were required to save all lives possible. But progressivism always elevate symbolism over results.

    We're just lucky the scientists came through in relatively short order. Or who knows what the death toll would have been.
    , @Pericles
    Michael Blowhard (who can of course be found here, though under another name) had a striking article about this, or rather what it looked like when AIDS got started: http://www.2blowhards.com/archives/2007/02/aids_and_immune.html

    From another source, here is a remembrance of Patient Zero (250 new 'partners' per year) by a medical doctor.


    I knew that Gaetan Dugas was still in town. I couldn't get to him, but I put word out, "If you see Gaetan Dugas, let him know I want to see him." He came up. I told him, "Look, we've got proof now." I didn't tell him how scientifically accurate the information was. It wasn't inaccurate, but it wasn't actually scientifically proven. I said, "We've got proof that you've been infecting these other people. You've got AIDS, you know. We know it's transmissible now, because you're transmitting it." He was the active partner in all this gay business, anal-genital sex. "You've just got to cut it out."

    "Don't be silly, I won't cut it out. It's my life. I'll do what I want." I said, "Yes, but you're infecting other people." "I got it. Let them get it." I said, "You've got to cut it out!" "Screw you." He walked out. I never saw him again. It was a pity, because he was apparently an intelligent man, except on this one point. And he was very, very sexually active. He was a presumptive proof that AIDS was something transmissible from an infected person directly to the uninfected person.

     

  40. @TheMediumIsTheMassage
    Steve, please don't jump the shark. You know better than this. AIDS was caused by a great multitude of factors, not gays being able to somewhat live their lives without having to hide in fear of being thrown in jail/fired/etc in the 70s. We were still having sex in the decades prior, FYI. I'd encourage you to read 'And the Band Played On' by Randy Shilts, one of the definitive texts on the early days of the AIDS epidemic. The faults of many gay community leaders, bathhouse owners, etc. are laid bare in that book, but it's far more than just them. The government and medical institutions failed to respond; the media failed to report on the topic, pressure the government for funds, and help deliver public health warnings; blood banks refused to heed warnings from scientists.

    If it had been treated the way Legionnaire's Disease was a few years prior, the number of victims would have been enormously reduced, but it was essentially allowed to spread unchecked until the mid to late 80s. Gay community activists who put sexual liberation first and protested against bathhouse closure and widespread, direct public health campaigns are certainly to blame as well, but they were also operating from a place of (understandable) deep mistrust towards the government.

    At any rate, AIDS would have spread even if there hadn't been any gay liberation because of African immigrants and intravenous drug users, in whom the spread of the disease was entirely separate from the gay community rooted in New York and San Francisco in the early 80s. The first cases in many European countries, for example, were in African immigrants. The disease was coming to America and the rest of the world no matter what. The long latent period of the virus (over 5 years on average) and the fact that the world was already quite globalized with constant air travel ensured that.

    Today, AIDS affects several orders of magnitude more people in Africa, which has nothing to do with gay liberation.

    Today, AIDS affects several orders of magnitude more people in Africa, which has nothing to do with gay liberation.

    Most of your post is just making excuses, but this is flat out wrong.

    The testing for AIDS in Africa is a joke. Africans know that if they tell Westerners that they have a lot of malaria cases, they get a small trickle of money. But if they tell Westerners they have a lot of AIDS cases, then lots of money gets sent. So they have AIDS instead of the hundreds of other diseases that have been prevalent in Africa since time immemorial.

    • Agree: BB753
    • Replies: @Old fogey
    Absolutely correct. I praise you for your straightforward and knowledgeable comment.
    , @Rosie

    The testing for AIDS in Africa is a joke. Africans know that if they tell Westerners that they have a lot of malaria cases, they get a small trickle of money. But if they tell Westerners they have a lot of AIDS cases, then lots of money gets sent. So they have AIDS instead of the hundreds of other diseases that have been prevalent in Africa since time immemorial.
     
    I wonder how much of it has to do with prostitution. The human vagina is not optimized for sex with 20-30 undesired men per day. Honestly, it hurts just thinking about it. Imagine all the dryness and tearing!

    Also, sadly, there is this:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dry_sex
  41. @Reg Cæsar

    Well AIDS was originally called GRID.
     
    Gives a new twist to the phrase "living off the grid".

    One of the earliest recognized symptoms was referred to as Gay Bowel Syndrome. Try saying that today.

    One of the earliest recognized symptoms was referred to as Gay Bowel Syndrome. Try saying that today.

    They’re saying it today, only quietly and with another motive. Ever notice all the commercials for new scrips and OTC remedies for all sorts of bowel disorders all the way out to a slew of HepC drugs being pushed out? The fisting/anal sex/glory-hole disorders are showing themselves in all sorts of ways, not the least being commercial, especially with women as frequent targets of the advertising for such ‘remedies’.

    Reagan was responsible for AIDS only in that he didn’t outlaw gay bathhouses and orgies and double down on public health announcements telling the truth of these activities.

    • Replies: @Old fogey
    The medical establishment as a whole never treated AIDS as it did other venereal diseases. Physicians did not ask AIDS patients with whom they had sex, and therefore did not follow up with them.
    , @Ris_Eruwaedhiel
    Joe Sobran once observed that that human anus is a poop shoot - stuff is supposed to come out, not go in.
    , @Mr. Anon
    A notable thing about all the pharma ads on TV - none of the people in them look remotely sick. They all seem to be in telegenic good health. They look nothing like the sort of people you see in a hospital waiting room.
  42. @Ghost of Bull Moose
    It is true that AIDS has nothing to do with homosexuality per se. But AIDS is associated with promiscuity. I've read a good bit of the Randy Shilts book, and some of the scenes described are almost beyond belief in their depravity. Now, many gay men pair off and live long lives and bully for them. But when older gay men reflect on how 8 of the 10 guys in this photo from Fire Island in 1980 are dead from AIDS, there's a reason for it.

    While there are promiscuous heterosexuals, it just isn't part of hetero culture the way it is for gay men. Anonymous sex with multiple partners just isn't as common. Heteros do not have glory holes, they do not host circuit parties, they do not cruise, they do not wander into the ramble in Central Park or the dunes of Fire Island looking for literally anyone to have sex with. There are no straight bug chasers. There are no straight bath houses or secret library bathrooms or whatever where straight people hook up. What Steve is saying is that this culture was de-stigmatized and even celebrated and this led directly to a much higher rate of AIDS among gay men. Not to mention the fact that gay men have a much higher rate of virtually every other STD.

    Studies of AIDS in Africa had to be redone because researchers realized that they couldn't just focus on male promiscuity; the women were also extremely promiscuous ( also, there are more 'men who have sex with men' who do not identify as gay in Africa). AIDS transmission is related to culture or lifestyle. Drug addicts have a culture, too, that lends itself to AIDS transmission.

    It's not coincidence that closing down the wrecks in the Hudson River near the Village and the bathhouses and a massive PR campaign encouraging gay men to be more responsible in their behavior led to a decrease in the rate of transmission. From the beginning of the PR campaign, another message was that this was not just a gay man's disease and that anyone could get it, Beckys and Chads in the suburbs would be infected in the 1,000s any day now. But that never happened, did it?

    Beckys and Chads in the suburbs would be infected in the 1,000s any day now. But that never happened, did it?

    What DID take place was/is a result of rampant bisexuality.

  43. @Buzz Mohawk
    Looking back, some of us should be kinda pissed off about the whole gAIDS scare.

    Some of us active heterosexuals were so freaked out by the propaganda that we were getting AIDS tests just to make sure everything was all right. Media encouraged us to do so. Now we realize that it was all unnecessary and there was no reason for us to worry -- because all we were doing was putting the right parts together, and with reasonable numbers of partners too.

    Thanks for putting a turd in our punchbowl, fags.

    I knew two different homosexual men who died of AIDS. I never knew anybody who even knew someone who knew someone who knew a heterosexual person who got it, much less died of it. It simply didn't happen, not through sex anyway.

    I never knew anybody who even knew someone who knew someone who knew a heterosexual person who got it

    Oh, come on. I’m sure you’re within four degrees of separation of Isaac Asimov, Arthur Ashe, or Tom Fogerty.

    It simply didn’t happen, not through sex anyway.

    Well, okay, a valid qualifier. These guys got it from another variety of penetration.

  44. @TheMediumIsTheMassage
    Steve, please don't jump the shark. You know better than this. AIDS was caused by a great multitude of factors, not gays being able to somewhat live their lives without having to hide in fear of being thrown in jail/fired/etc in the 70s. We were still having sex in the decades prior, FYI. I'd encourage you to read 'And the Band Played On' by Randy Shilts, one of the definitive texts on the early days of the AIDS epidemic. The faults of many gay community leaders, bathhouse owners, etc. are laid bare in that book, but it's far more than just them. The government and medical institutions failed to respond; the media failed to report on the topic, pressure the government for funds, and help deliver public health warnings; blood banks refused to heed warnings from scientists.

    If it had been treated the way Legionnaire's Disease was a few years prior, the number of victims would have been enormously reduced, but it was essentially allowed to spread unchecked until the mid to late 80s. Gay community activists who put sexual liberation first and protested against bathhouse closure and widespread, direct public health campaigns are certainly to blame as well, but they were also operating from a place of (understandable) deep mistrust towards the government.

    At any rate, AIDS would have spread even if there hadn't been any gay liberation because of African immigrants and intravenous drug users, in whom the spread of the disease was entirely separate from the gay community rooted in New York and San Francisco in the early 80s. The first cases in many European countries, for example, were in African immigrants. The disease was coming to America and the rest of the world no matter what. The long latent period of the virus (over 5 years on average) and the fact that the world was already quite globalized with constant air travel ensured that.

    Today, AIDS affects several orders of magnitude more people in Africa, which has nothing to do with gay liberation.

    Legionnaires disease? Are you kidding me? That was spread through the air conditioning. How can that even be a comparison?

    AIDS was largely spread through sexual promiscuity and IV drug use. I’m pretty sure the Reaganites were on message against both those things throughout the 80s.

    • Replies: @Pericles
    Also a few sorry souls got it through blood transfusion. I hear the gays are nowadays campaigning for poisoning the blood supply again, but I also seem to recall reading that some 'activists' back then donated poz blood to 'increase public awareness' ... I don't have a source for that though.

    Those infected through blood transfusion were of course a primary showcases to the normies, shame on the normie for thinking AIDS was related only to deviant subcultures.
  45. @doxmenot
    From page 131 - 132 of "And the Band Played On" by Randy Shilts, (gay) reporter for the San Francisco Chronicle - "A typical GRID case had sex with 1,100 men in his lifetime...", from research by the CDC from the mid 1980s.

    Who knew this or reported it? I never heard it from any source - until I read the book.
    (GRID, later HIV - AIDS, Gay related immune disorder.) What I heard in college was that gays who got AIDS or HIV were no more promiscuous than straights.

    Gays (in general) are vastly more promiscuous then straights. It is not a difference in degree. It is a difference in kind. The very nature of the gay lifestyle makes it so. I recall once reading a study that the average gay man had had 200 sexual partners by the age of forty.

    However this wanton behaviour is (generally) not true of Lesbians. They tend to be the opposite.

    • Replies: @cthulhu


    However this wanton behaviour is (generally) not true of Lesbians. They tend to be the opposite.

     

    Yeah, look up the term “lesbian bed death”.
    , @Jim Don Bob
    When researchers started interviewing gays who had AIDS, they were stunned at the number of "partners" many of them had had. Thousands. Randy Shilts' book And The Band Played On is quite good. He eventually died of AIDS too.
  46. @Wilkey
    Pretty much this. "And the Band Played On" (which served in 1993 as a vanity project for a long list of stars) and "The Normal Heart" (Mark Ruffalo and Jim Parsons) both lay a lot of blame on the government, which was certainly well-deserved. But they also are both pretty blunt about the refusal of many gays to accept the threat was real. They are both well worth watching. Despite the occasional political jab, the story of the first stages of the epidemic is just too fascinating to ignore.

    A big percentage of the most famous people to die from AIDS probably were infected after the disease was a known danger. AIDS was also referred to as 4H disease - for homosexuals, Haitians, heroin addicts and hemophiliacs. So yes, it would have spread absent gay liberation. But anyone who thinks venues that were more tolerated thanks to liberation, like the bathhouses, didn't serve as accelerants is just fooling themselves.

    But anyone who thinks venues that were more tolerated thanks to liberation, like the bathhouses, didn’t serve as accelerants is just fooling themselves.

    I often wondered after the AIDS thing got rolling how many of the hundreds of thousands of sailors aboard the carriers and other ships that visited African continent cities and countries from Alexandria to Tunis and Senegal in the 70s and 80s for tattoos and sex contributed to the problem once back home. That factor ouldn’t have helped but introduce/spread the disease, especially to the wives and girlfriends..

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    How many rock stars died of AIDS? Rocks stars sleep with lots of girls.

    Freddie Mercury.

    But ...

    , @JMcG
    I believe the first documented case was that of a British sailor in the thirties. I don’t really pay much attention to the whole subject anymore, so that might no longer be true.
    , @Carol
    The 1776 bicentennial gathering of sailing ships in NY harbor apparently was where the epidemic really going.
  47. @Ghost of Bull Moose
    It is true that AIDS has nothing to do with homosexuality per se. But AIDS is associated with promiscuity. I've read a good bit of the Randy Shilts book, and some of the scenes described are almost beyond belief in their depravity. Now, many gay men pair off and live long lives and bully for them. But when older gay men reflect on how 8 of the 10 guys in this photo from Fire Island in 1980 are dead from AIDS, there's a reason for it.

    While there are promiscuous heterosexuals, it just isn't part of hetero culture the way it is for gay men. Anonymous sex with multiple partners just isn't as common. Heteros do not have glory holes, they do not host circuit parties, they do not cruise, they do not wander into the ramble in Central Park or the dunes of Fire Island looking for literally anyone to have sex with. There are no straight bug chasers. There are no straight bath houses or secret library bathrooms or whatever where straight people hook up. What Steve is saying is that this culture was de-stigmatized and even celebrated and this led directly to a much higher rate of AIDS among gay men. Not to mention the fact that gay men have a much higher rate of virtually every other STD.

    Studies of AIDS in Africa had to be redone because researchers realized that they couldn't just focus on male promiscuity; the women were also extremely promiscuous ( also, there are more 'men who have sex with men' who do not identify as gay in Africa). AIDS transmission is related to culture or lifestyle. Drug addicts have a culture, too, that lends itself to AIDS transmission.

    It's not coincidence that closing down the wrecks in the Hudson River near the Village and the bathhouses and a massive PR campaign encouraging gay men to be more responsible in their behavior led to a decrease in the rate of transmission. From the beginning of the PR campaign, another message was that this was not just a gay man's disease and that anyone could get it, Beckys and Chads in the suburbs would be infected in the 1,000s any day now. But that never happened, did it?

    From the beginning of the PR campaign, another message was that this was not just a gay man’s disease and that anyone could get it, Beckys and Chads in the suburbs would be infected in the 1,000s any day now. But that never happened, did it?

    Shilts himself said that this “never made any sense”.

    Before it was the “anally injected death sentence” seen on countless restroom stall walls, it was “anyone interested in deviant sodomy?”

    • Replies: @Jim Christian

    Before it was the “anally injected death sentence” seen on countless restroom stall walls, it was “anyone interested in deviant sodomy?”
     
    There is a particularly deviant segment, I forget the numbers, but not by any means insignificant, of gay men who think there is something sacred in being infected with HIV and then going about trying to make that happen. They had a catchy name for such idiots, forget THAT too. Some of these depraved characters even declare they 'knew' the instant of their infection. Liz Warren now likes to talk of gay reparations but I think they've already had their full share given the expense imposed saving their lives. Correct me if I'm wrong, but was not HIV/AIDS research the leading money-grabber ahead of lots of diseases if not all for many years? Regardless, it was plenty. And so I'd say Gays already had their bite at the reparations apple, no?
  48. @Daniel H
    the media failed to report on the topic, pressure the government for funds, and help deliver public health warnings

    I was around 82-86 and it seemed to me then, as now, that the media was constantly advocating for government involvement, demanding that more research be done, etc..

    I also remember the efforts of Mayor Ed Koch in New York City to shut down those horrid dens of iniquity - the gay bathhouses - and getting a tsunami of a tantrum from gays who insisted that these sex joints must stay open and only a self-hating, closeted gay homophobe could recommend otherwise. Gays knew that thousands, upon thousands were being infected in these bathhouses but their access to easy, promiscuous sex trumped all other considerations.

    BTW, the very notion of a gay bathouse, where men engage in sexual activity with multiples of other men - one after the other, after the other, after the other.....- in a public setting, is disgusting, revolting. It is degrading. Behaviour unworthy of a human being.

    I was around 82-86 and it seemed to me then, as now, that the media was constantly advocating for government involvement, demanding that more research be done, etc..

    Yup, once it started it didn’t stop.

    Quite scary too as no-one knew anything and maybe they were hiding easy transmission?

    BTW, the very notion of a gay bathouse, where men engage in sexual activity with multiples of other men – one after the other, after the other, after the other…..- in a public setting, is disgusting, revolting. It is degrading. Behaviour unworthy of a human being.

    drugs & sex are prime directives for some.

  49. @Tiny Duck
    Actually Ronald Reagan being a complete scumbag and the white Christian power structure in the 80s caused aids epidemic in the gay community

    Actually Ronald Reagan being a complete scumbag and the white Christian power structure in the 80s caused aids epidemic in the gay community

    Yes, Tiny, I well remember Ed Meese and Jerry Falwell sneaking, Ninja-like, into the bath houses of New York City and Frisco, and injecting homosexuals with hypodermic needles full of AIDS-juice. Sometimes Robert Schuller and Billy Graham would join them in their murderous antics. When they weren’t forcing Margaret Atwood to wear a red robe and brood-mare little evangelical babies into the World, that is.

    Truly, it was a dark, dark time.

  50. heteros still continue to get HIV – hetero women that is. by the CDC’s own numbers, thousands of women are getting HIV every year. they get it by having sex with a bisexual man, who got HIV from another man.

    since HIV transmission is almost always only one way, from man to woman, hetero women are always in some small danger of getting HIV.

    who doesn’t get HIV? hetero men.

    • Replies: @Feryl
    Open wounds. Hetero men are much less likely to suffer a wounding during a sex act than women and gay dudes are. See also those who receive blood transfusions, and IV drug addicts.

    And as others have noted, violent and otherwise unsafe sex practices (and immune system damaging infections in general) seem more common among SS Africans, thus explaining the higher HIV infection rates among them.

    Truly, "safe" sex is only possible when no party is injured to the point of bleeding during the act.
    , @Feryl
    IV drug use is the biggest "DUH" risk factor imaginable. Imagine taking a needle tainted by some else's biological material and shoving directly into your blood stream. Yuck.
    , @AnotherDad

    heteros still continue to get HIV – hetero women that is. by the CDC’s own numbers, thousands of women are getting HIV every year. they get it by having sex with a bisexual man, who got HIV from another man.
     
    I'm not much interesting in telling people--including homos--what to do. So ultimately--at least until we get the cause of homosexuality figured out and just end it--i'd like to get the homos separated off to homoland, so the normal people who actually maintain both civilization and our prosperity can do so in peace.

    But barring that joyous occurence, we should criminalize fags having sex with women. If a man has sex with men--he's a fag. Case closed. Once he does that, that should be it. No more vagina. Doing so exposes that women and eventually some normal men to all the disease matrix that homosexuals are incubating and cultivating.

    Homos can go do their thing, but under no circumstances should their pathogen generating degeneracy be thrust onto the rest of us.
  51. On the plus side, the subways this weekend in New York worked. Gay Pride makes the trains run on time.

    For about the last eight years or more, subway service in New York on weekends is subject to confusing and maddening restrictions due to ever constant “repair” that is never done or improved. I had several errands to run this weekend and with great reservation checked the MTA Weekender App to see what lines would be shut down. But lo!, like a gift from God On High… ALL LINES WERE FULLY OPERATIONAL THIS WEEKEND IN HONOR OF PRIDE WEEKEND. I was ecstatic. I’m sure MTA workers were being paid double time in order to work the Gay Pride holiday, but who cares.

    I would accept a “Gay Pride Century” if it meant the subway was half way functional on a weekend. I am a man of humble needs.

    Speaking of The Gay, Diana Ross concert in Central Park. Near the end of the clip, Ms. Ross cajoles the various hooligans that invaded Central Park and were mugging her poor fans. This would not happen today. Somethings have improved. This should be acknowledged.

    • Replies: @The Alarmist

    On the plus side, the subways this weekend in New York worked. Gay Pride makes the trains run on time.
     
    One of the funnier things I experienced in NYC was at roughly 9pm while waiting on the 51st street subway platform in NYC, when an announcement blared over the speakers that the 6-train was being held at Grand Central to get it back on schedule; more than a few people said something to the effect of, "They have a schedule?"
    , @BenKenobi

    I would accept a “Gay Pride Century”
     
    Good news, buddy-ro! You're livin' in it!
    , @CCZ
    But for west of the Hudson homosexuals: “A problem at a main-line rail bridge in Newark led to big slowdowns Sunday by NJ Transit and Amtrak, delaying many who planned to participate in the massive Pride Parade marches through New York City. Trains were running on a 30-minute delay in and out of New York Penn Station due to “track issues” on the Amtrak Dock Bridge in Newark, a NJ Transit spokeswoman reported.”

    Homosexuals took to Twitter to vehemently demand: “Stop doing the gays dirty. You knew it was world pride today.”
  52. @Charles_Martel
    Let's not forget the Haitians, who along with gays were thought to be carriers of AIDS, and were thought to have contracted the disease--let's see now, was it from eating monkeys or having sex with pigs, or perhaps both? Anyway, I remember back at the very beginning of public awareness about AIDS, the following joke:

    Q. What is the worst thing about having AIDS?
    A. Having to tell your mother you had sex with a Haitian!

    When it became clear that AIDS was spread through anal sex and sharing needles, the joking stopped. And the Haitians were exonerated.

    Q. What is the worst thing about having AIDS?
    A. Having to tell your mother you had sex with a Haitian!

    There were a slew of them. One of the all-time greats:
    Q: What do you call a queer in a wheelchair?
    A: Roll-AIDS.

  53. @anon19
    Would you be so kind as to tell us what this documentary was called? Sounds interesting.

    Probably ‘House of Numbers’. It’s on Youtube in various forms. Parts are interesting, but it’s HIV science denialist crap overall.

  54. Steve Sailer:

    “Gay Liberation Caused AIDS”

    First of all, you couldn’t care less about the lives of gay men. That is just an excuse from you to jusitify keeping gay men forcefully in the closet so as to not get in the way of your ideal Society of married straight people with kids. *That* is what you really care about.

    Secondly, even if your intention of saving the lives of gay men were genuine(it is not), this is your solution? To baby sit adults and tell them what they can and cannot do with their own lives? Brilliant solution, Sailer. Let’s extend your argument. People getting drunk and crashing cars? Either Prohibition or outlawing cars. People dying of drug overdoses? War on drugs. Oh wait, you conservatives already got that for 40 years, and the results are stellar. Not only do people continue to die of drug overdoses, but now we have massive corruption of government agencies, a huge and costly government bureaucracy, prisons full of people at tax payer expensve, and more drugs than ever keep pouring in. People dying of obesity? Let’s outlaw cheetos. Or better yet, let’s outlaw food altogether since then the problem will be solved for sure. Young men wasting too much of their time and lives masturbating to porn? Outlaw porn, and have them rape women instead. Prostitution spreading infections? Oh way, just outlaw it and have millions of men die as virgins. I mean, only a few thousand will blow up their schools and go on killing sprees, and that’s a small price to pay to prevent the spread of clamidea even though just using condoms is far more effective, but conservatives know better with their idiotic moral prejudices!

    ‘Gay liberation caused AIDS.” What a lying, moronic, stupid statement.

    • Replies: @Coag
    Absolutely outlaw, if scientifically sound. Your hysterics about banning porn and banning cheetos have nothing to do with anything.

    The shutting down of the bathhouses and orgy sites was a no-brainer. One of the smart decisions they made early on in the epidemic was the blanket ban on gays donating blood. The decision was statistically, scientifically, and ethically sound. AIDS-infected gays donating and selling blood and subsequently infecting thousands of innocent people including the horrific holocaust of hemophiliacs is one of the unsung heartwrenching tragedies that stemmed from gay liberation.

    Also please read through all the comments in the thread, many made by first hand chroniclers and journalists of the AIDS epidemic, that show that, indeed, gay liberation ignited the deadliest and most dramatic plague of our lifetime.


    First of all, you couldn’t care less about the lives of gay men. That is just an excuse from you to jusitify keeping gay men forcefully in the closet so as to not get in the way of your ideal Society of married straight people with kids.
     
    Whether gay or straight, the dangerous ethos of wanton promsicuity should absolutely be a taboo. As a parent who doesn't want his kids exposed to this warped ethos, I can say it with absolute conviction and I reject any excuse you yourself come up with that justifies your own "ideal society". You obviously couldn't care less about the lives of traditional families with kids.

    Gays have an important and inalienable role in society. As LePen accurately observed, gays are like salt in soup -- too little salt and the soup is bland and unpalatable, too much salt and the soup is also ruined.

    , @gabriel alberton

    ‘Gay liberation caused AIDS.” What a lying, moronic, stupid statement.
     
    If only you showed us why, instead of showing us the insides of Sailer's noggin...

    Lovers of fallacies should delight in discussions like these.

    Mr. Sailer kicks it off with an ''after this, therefore because of this''. It's not unprotected sex with someone HIV-positive that caused (and causes) AIDS, or receiving HIV-positive blood in a transfusion, or the sharing of needles contaminated with said blood, happening many times so to cause an epidemic: no, it's gay liberation.

    You, Mr. Diaz, then ad hominem Sailer thoroughly: he doesn't care about gays, he'd rather have them all in the closet, or dead, and apparently argues for outlawing gay sex again. He wants to babysit the gays -- or that's what he wants us to think, because as you said, he's dishonest and prejudiced: he actually wants them repressed by the married straights with kids. Or dead. That gays are disproportionately HIV-positive... how's that even relevant, you might add.

    It could go on. A third commenter could admit that yes, gays are much more often HIV-positive than straights are, but that's the straights' fault. They are rumored to (rarely) ''bugchase'', or at least fantasize about doing so, but the straights are to blame for that too. A fourth commenter could claim that, actually, the majority of gays ''bugchase'', not a minority: he knows this from his gay friends.

    And so on... the fallacy connoisseur would not come out disappointed.
    , @jimmyriddle
    "your ideal Society of married straight people with kids"

    The available evidence suggests this is objectively the best society.

    It's probably better for gays too. They don't age well. Most would be haapier if they had stayed in the closet, married and raised kids.
    , @Mr. Anon
    Calm down, nitwit.

    You want to live in a society run by-and-for homosexuals? Go do so. Leave us out of it. Normal, decent people don't want that. For the simple reason that a society run to suit the deviant proclivities of homosexuals would be (is, as we are finding out) sh**ty, awful, and dysfunctional.
    , @More R1b, Less H1B
    Well, you guys are out of the closet now and it hasn't seemed to change anything about your behavior. The closet was so terrible that you drilled a hole in the side to share new strains of gonorrhea through, and incorporated it into your 'culture.' The glory holes and bathhouses remain, supplemented by modern innovations in viral delivery like Grindr. Homosexual promiscuity and willful risk-taking behavior have increased; I'm told it's only fair (a civil rights issue, no less) that the cost of developing, producing and administering expensive treatments for those afflicted by AIDS be borne by society at large- when the alternative is subjecting the gays to the onerous and unbearable burden of not exposing one's anal lining to hundreds of strangers without a condom.

    You know who doesn't care about the lives of gay men? Gay men. It's not the straights dragging you to 200 sexual encounters with complete strangers a year. Thanks for making Barnes & Noble have to send security personnel to sweep the bathroom a few times an hour!
    , @JMcG
    I’d block your comments, but I get a chuckle every time you come around stamping your feet and shaking your finger at our host.
    , @Precious
    First of all, you couldn’t care less about the lives of gay men. That is just an excuse from you to jusitify keeping gay men forcefully in the closet so as to not get in the way of your ideal Society of married straight people with kids.

    Minor correction, we just want a functioning, sane society, not an ideal one. We can't get that until you nutjobs are back in the closet.
    , @Bill Jones
    "First of all, you couldn’t care less about the lives of gay men."

    Typical drivel. Does the phrase non-sequitur mean anything to you? In what way does his opinion alter the facts?

    You're not expecting him to behave like a liberal are you?
    , @Boy the way Glenn Miller played

    ‘Gay liberation caused AIDS.” What a lying, moronic, stupid statement
     
    .

    Hit a little too close to home?
    , @MBlanc46
    I’ve already used my Troll quota this hour, so I’ll have to type “Troll!” Why don’t you just bugger off?
  55. Gay privilege meant that instead of inexpensive quarantine measures, we had to spend $1 trillion and counting on AIDS research and treatment. To this day, the NIH privileges AIDS-related research at every level. (Scientists (grant-chasers) will, in 2019, set aside a lung cancer line of research to pursue the AIDS line of research).

    Pure privilege.

    • Agree: Dtbb, Macumazahn
  56. It is now being said that the Stonewall Inn was raided, at least in part, becuase it served alcohol to minors. I guess that was a twofer for the owners: they got business from the minors who showed up to drink, and from the homosexual men who showed up for the minors.

    And yet we are assured t0day that it was all very innocent and wholesome.

    • Replies: @Anon
    Gays have always had a strong sexual preference for teens. This is not widely discussed in polite society anymore, but it's a fact of gay life.
  57. @Ghost of Bull Moose
    It is true that AIDS has nothing to do with homosexuality per se. But AIDS is associated with promiscuity. I've read a good bit of the Randy Shilts book, and some of the scenes described are almost beyond belief in their depravity. Now, many gay men pair off and live long lives and bully for them. But when older gay men reflect on how 8 of the 10 guys in this photo from Fire Island in 1980 are dead from AIDS, there's a reason for it.

    While there are promiscuous heterosexuals, it just isn't part of hetero culture the way it is for gay men. Anonymous sex with multiple partners just isn't as common. Heteros do not have glory holes, they do not host circuit parties, they do not cruise, they do not wander into the ramble in Central Park or the dunes of Fire Island looking for literally anyone to have sex with. There are no straight bug chasers. There are no straight bath houses or secret library bathrooms or whatever where straight people hook up. What Steve is saying is that this culture was de-stigmatized and even celebrated and this led directly to a much higher rate of AIDS among gay men. Not to mention the fact that gay men have a much higher rate of virtually every other STD.

    Studies of AIDS in Africa had to be redone because researchers realized that they couldn't just focus on male promiscuity; the women were also extremely promiscuous ( also, there are more 'men who have sex with men' who do not identify as gay in Africa). AIDS transmission is related to culture or lifestyle. Drug addicts have a culture, too, that lends itself to AIDS transmission.

    It's not coincidence that closing down the wrecks in the Hudson River near the Village and the bathhouses and a massive PR campaign encouraging gay men to be more responsible in their behavior led to a decrease in the rate of transmission. From the beginning of the PR campaign, another message was that this was not just a gay man's disease and that anyone could get it, Beckys and Chads in the suburbs would be infected in the 1,000s any day now. But that never happened, did it?

    Four paragraphs without stating that when AIDS is transmitted sexually it is exclusive to anal intercourse. That would have been a fine public service announcement in 1985, but it is still a subject that can’t be mentioned.

    • Replies: @Carol
    And gee now they got everyone doing it

    Glad I'm old.
    , @Feryl
    It certainly is not exclusive to anal. Other parts of the body (including the vagina and mouth) can be injured during sexual activity, or may already have received injuries from other activities (for example, eating certain foods can abrade the mouth and tongue ). It is true that promiscuous and drugged up gay men often injure each other anally, thus explaining the sky high rates among gay men (and by "injury" this also includes slight abrasions which may not seem remarkable)

    Most Boomers are in denial about the risks of oral sex, 'cuz when they grew up nobody questioned it. Yet oral and throat cancers are more pronounced in people who had many oral sex partners.

    The only "safe sex" is the traditional type between two monogamous partners.
    , @orionyx
    Four paragraphs, and 58 comments, before anyone mentioned this explicitly.
    Anyone who knows any anatomy knows that the rectal mucosa is only one cell thick, and that venous drainage from the rectum goes directly to the liver. So pathogens can enter easily, even in the absence of visible injury, and go straight to the liver to breed. Vaginal epithelium, on the other hand, is many layers thick, and resistant to injury. The vaginal circulation drains to the systemic circulation, not the liver. The result is that vaginal sex is not conducive to the spread of AIDS.
    These facts help to explain the spread of AIDS in Africa. Women there will permit or be forced into anal sex to avoid pregnancy. Men there will have anal sex with other men for a variety of reasons without the active partner regarding himself as homosexual. And African governments will call malnutrition, TB, and many water-borne diseases AIDS because that's where the money is.
    The counterexamples given of heterosexual men getting AIDS from women just go to show that some men will lie rather than admit to having had at least the occasional lapse.
    So on balance spent on AIDS prevention and treatment could have been saved by simply telling our young people to keep their anal sphincters clenched except when defecating, and to keep their backs to the wall at parties with lots of dodgy strangers.
  58. @Reg Cæsar

    From the beginning of the PR campaign, another message was that this was not just a gay man’s disease and that anyone could get it, Beckys and Chads in the suburbs would be infected in the 1,000s any day now. But that never happened, did it?
     
    Shilts himself said that this "never made any sense".

    Before it was the "anally injected death sentence" seen on countless restroom stall walls, it was "anyone interested in deviant sodomy?"

    Before it was the “anally injected death sentence” seen on countless restroom stall walls, it was “anyone interested in deviant sodomy?”

    There is a particularly deviant segment, I forget the numbers, but not by any means insignificant, of gay men who think there is something sacred in being infected with HIV and then going about trying to make that happen. They had a catchy name for such idiots, forget THAT too. Some of these depraved characters even declare they ‘knew’ the instant of their infection. Liz Warren now likes to talk of gay reparations but I think they’ve already had their full share given the expense imposed saving their lives. Correct me if I’m wrong, but was not HIV/AIDS research the leading money-grabber ahead of lots of diseases if not all for many years? Regardless, it was plenty. And so I’d say Gays already had their bite at the reparations apple, no?

    • Replies: @Alfa158
    I think it’s called “pozzed” from HIV positive. As far as I’ve read though, the main attraction is that once you are infected, you can resume having unprotected, promiscuous sex and the government will pay whatever it takes to keep the drug cocktail flowing needed to extend your life.
    Even as a straight guy I can see their logic, but it wouldn’t work for us because women just don’t roll that way.
  59. I’m an old guy who lived in NYC during the late ‘70s and ‘80s and who hung out in the media and arts worlds — in other words, I lived in AIDS central. I also did a fair amount of reporting about the AIDS crisis for the magazine I worked for. I talked to doctors, researchers, and political people. I had many, many gay friends, some of whom were older (and from whom I learned a lot about what gay life in NYC was like before Gay Lib), and some of whom died of AIDS.

    A few of the things I learned:

    Anal sex wasn’t that common back in the pre Gay Lib days. Pre Gay Lib, gay guys mostly blew each other or jerked each other off. Some of the older gays I knew found gay anal sex distasteful and had never, ever had it.

    Unprotected buttfucking and wildly promiscuous sex were symbolically very important to the GayLib movement. It was part of the whole go-wild, liberation, revolutionary, bad-is-good and good-is-bad ethos of the time. Buttfucking and promiscuity were seen as, no fooling, Civil Rights matters (first struggles, then triumphs) by political gays. Put that drive together with the massive amount of drugs that were around and the result was a lot of incredibly crazy behavior.

    Even before HIV arrived, the ultra-partying gay crowd in the late ‘70s was already riddled with a lot of illness, which is part of what made them vulnerable to the HIV virus (which, contrary to what many of us have been told, is generally pretty hard to pass along).

    When scary cancers and unusual infections started cropping up, it took docs and scientists a little while to puzzle things out but pretty soon it was perfectly well understood that unprotected, promiscuous gay buttfucking was the main driver behind the spread of HIV/AIDS.

    The political gays were terrified of two things: 1) that straight mainstream America would turn on them; and 2) that the illness would be dealt with as a typical epidemic. They wanted the p-r benefits of screaming “epidemic,” yes — but they really, really didn’t want infected gays placed in quarantine, which of course would have ended the epidemic within a couple of years. They wanted the whole concept of quarantine to be undiscussable. And they also didn’t want to give up what they saw as their just-recently acquired civil right to promiscuous buttfucking. They weren’t gonna budge on that. So they launched the Safe Sex crusade.

    The strategy of the Safe Sex campaign was: In order to get funding and action and deflect criticism, scare the straights, even though (as Michael Fumento showed) straight America was never going to be much impacted by HIV/AIDS (not promiscuous enough); and in order to maintain the “right” to promiscuity and buttfucking while doing something to moderate the spread of HIV, urge gays to use condoms. The idea that gay guys who were doing a lot of promiscuous buttfucking were being major public health menaces was never to be permitted. Despite the fact that sex is a voluntary act, gays were to be seen as victims only. Life was to go on as it always had, only with condoms, a lot of screaming at the government, and (with luck) eventually some medical advances.

    The political gays who drove the Safe Sex response to the HIV/AIDS crisis were, in other words, responsible for tens if not hundreds of thousands of unnecessary deaths — the crazy but brilliant gay playwright Larry Kramer often made this point — as well as for scaring millions of straight people unnecessarily silly about *their* sex lives.

    Much more, and many graphic details, are in this posting from my old blog:

    http://www.2blowhards.com/archives/2007/02/aids_and_immune.html

    • Replies: @Anarcocapitalisf
    Your blog name is a perfect pun to this post.
    , @MikeatMikedotMike
    First of all, great comment. Secondly, I don't think I've actually heard the term "buttfucking" since high school, and I'm laughing my ass off at 4:30 in the morning reading this. The thought of a retiree age individual using the term makes it even funnier. Thanks for the laugh.
    , @charles w abbott
    Nice to see one of blowhards turn up here. The blowhard essays are still worth reading, and thank God we still have their archives, or most of them.

    And it's good to see Fumento's book mentioned. Fumento is an under-appreciated writer, and his _Myth of heterosexual AIDS_ was worth reading, even if not totally correct or flawless. It even has a nice epigraph. I'll paraphrase from memory:

    "The most devastating truth is a fact that is kept secret by a well-meaning friend."

    = - = - = - = - =

    It didn't take that long for medical professionals to notice that in the USA the heterosexual risks of contracting HIV were extremely low and seemed stable over time. Well before 1990 I saw an essay in a pathology journal or newsletter claiming that if you drove 10 miles to have sex with someone in a low risk group, you were as much at risk of death in traffic as you were from contracting HIV in that single act of love.

    All you had to assume was that you were driving to have sex with a heterosexual who did not have a high risk partner and did not inject drugs. And driving about 10 miles.

    = - = - = - = - =

    The African situation is different. A good book to read is _The origins of AIDS_ by Jacques Pepin, published by Oxford. The author spent years in Central Africa practicing medicine, is currently an academic in Canada. The book is largely an historical exploration. It has a lot of difficult vocabulary but the underlying arguments are not complex. (1) More urbanization, (2) more prostitution in the big cities, (3) re-use of needles (iatrogenic transmission) all helped HIV break out of isolated communities in Central Africa. The commercial blood products industry later played a role as well.

    A underappreciated fact is that it's apparently more common in many parts of Africa to have "concurrent sexual partners." Promiscuity does not run wild, but many adults may have two or more partners simultaneously for some years at a time. In much of the industrialized West it's more common for people to practice serial monogamy. It's hard to hide an affair, and often one of the partners won't tolerate it and doesn't have to.
    , @JMcG
    Thank you.
    , @ken
    Great post. Seem to remember reading years back that butt penetration wasn't very common until recent decades. Intercrural intercourse (dick between another man's thighs) was much more practiced. And now I have to figure out why I'm spending so much time looking into homo conduct.
    , @anon

    Unprotected buttfucking and wildly promiscuous sex were symbolically very important to the GayLib movement.
     
    There you have it. Occam's butterknife.

    As long as we are naming unspeakable acts, buttfucking has morphed into the practice referred to as "barebacking". Differing because full knowledge of the dangers is part of the appeal. It is considered a fettish by some.

    But that was pre PrEP/Truvada.

    https://youtu.be/3_FePkwn1uE

    Lets just say that barebacking is an evolving practice. It never ends.
    , @AKAHorace

    Anal sex wasn’t that common back in the pre Gay Lib days. Pre Gay Lib, gay guys mostly blew each other or jerked each other off. Some of the older gays I knew found gay anal sex distasteful and had never, ever had it.
     
    There are many places where there is a long tradition of homosexuality (e.g. Afghanistan), but where one man in active (penetrating) the other passive. AIDs does not spread much in these circumstances.
    , @House
    Very interesting. What are your thoughts on the documentary House of numbers?
    , @Reg Cæsar

    Anal sex wasn’t that common back in the pre Gay Lib days.
     
    Juvenal mentioned "meeting yesterday's lunch", or, in an earlier, more florid translation,


    What is an ease and pleasure, could'st thou say
    (Where nature's law forbids) to force my way
    To the digested meals of yesterday?
     
    That was in the Ninth Satire. I ran across this little commentary on the Tenth-- then looked up to see which site it appeared on and, hey! I know this guy!

    A traditional Roman method for avenging oneself on an adulterer was to force a large fish into his anus.

     

    , @TheMediumIsTheMassage
    "The political gays who drove the Safe Sex response to the HIV/AIDS crisis were, in other words, responsible for tens if not hundreds of thousands of unnecessary deaths"

    This is absolutely true. Many political gays at the time stalled efforts to close bathhouses and deliver effective public health warnings that explicitly outlined how the disease was transmitted. They all have blood on their hands.

    Still doesn't mean this blog post is accurate. The epidemiology of intravenous drug users is entirely different, as is the spread of the disease among Africans/Haitians/etc.. Plus, the blood bank/transfusions/haemophiliac issue was due to the fact that blood banks flat out refused to do anything about the issue out of sheer denial and fear of loss of profits. Those other routes of transmission were a huge part of the AIDS epidemic, it was never just about gay men.

  60. @doxmenot
    The reason AIDS is present in heterosexuals in the third world (but rarely spread heterosexually in the first world) is explained by the poor health of third worlders. A prostitute or client or citizen in the third world is far more likely to have untreated diseases such as syphilis or gonorrhea or other conditions. This makes men and women more susceptible to AIDS transmission in the third world.

    In first world countries men rarely contract AIDS from women in ordinary sex acts. Randy Shilts talks of the rarity of heterosexual transmission of AIDS to men in his book "And the Band Played On", (published about 1987).

    The MSM and the University, and religious groups are content to hide this information. How many people have heard this thirty years after Shilts's NYT "bestselling" book?

    “The reason AIDS is present in heterosexuals in the third world (but rarely spread heterosexually in the first world) is explained by the poor health of third worlders.”

    that’s part of it. but the main part is that HIV rates track sex rates pretty well. homos have the most sex, they collect most of the HIV. africans have the most sex, they collect most of the HIV. african men who have sex with men are the people who have the most sex of all, and well, there you go. highest HIV rate.

    east asians have the least amount of sex, and have very low STD transmission rates. dirt poor people in south asia and southeast asia don’t have nearly the HIV rate of africans. or the murder rate. hmm.

    i’d say it’s a pretty good bet that very high HIV rates in africa…are from african men having sex with anything that moves. other men, women, all get HIV from these guys. nobody wants to go there or talk about that, but that’s probably the biggest factor. a lot of them have so much sex it’s hard to comprehend for first worlders.

    this is not the only thing that’s going on, but like the murder rate, that’s the biggest factor going on. wherever the africans go, the HIV and murder rate follow. it’s pretty reliable. doesn’t have to be a third would country. africans in first world countries exhibit all these trends.

  61. @anon19
    Gays (in general) are vastly more promiscuous then straights. It is not a difference in degree. It is a difference in kind. The very nature of the gay lifestyle makes it so. I recall once reading a study that the average gay man had had 200 sexual partners by the age of forty.

    However this wanton behaviour is (generally) not true of Lesbians. They tend to be the opposite.

    However this wanton behaviour is (generally) not true of Lesbians. They tend to be the opposite.

    Yeah, look up the term “lesbian bed death”.

    • Replies: @Hamlet's Ghost
    I've always looked at lesbians as not so much homosexual as asexual. Maybe even anti-sexual. Seems they're more about getting drunk on weekends than anything else.
  62. @Half Canadian
    Men-who-have-sex-with-men are vastly over represented in HIV infections. Given that they are <3% of the population, it would be surprising if they were the majority.

    They are, though. In the US, ~55% of cases

    • Replies: @South Texas Guy

    In the US, ~55% of cases
     
    I don't believe that for a second. No ... freaking ... way. Even now, there are still a lot of closeted gays who won't cop to having taken it up the poop chute (looking at you, Magic).

    Basically, the suspension of disbelief is similar to this:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMt7C3COiVM

  63. Anonymous[771] • Disclaimer says:

    In the UK, BBC TV news is *absolutely obsessed* with marking the 50th anniversary of the Stonewall Riots. It has been a leading news item for at least a week – that and the women’s soccer.
    Curiously, Stonewall has or had very very little to do with legislative attitudes toward homosexuality in the UK.
    It’s also noteworthy that the BBC is more or less completely ignoring the 50th anniversary of the Apollo moon landing, which is fast approaching.

    • Replies: @Duke84
    The moon landing was accomplished by white men therefore it's not something to be celebrated by the PC left.
    , @Redneck farmer
    Duh. There are homos in Britain, but the Apollo Project was just uppity colonials. And they can imply that any annoyance caused by British gays is the result of the aforementioned colonials.
    , @Reg Cæsar
    HIV is spread by a "moon landing" of sorts.
  64. Anonymous[771] • Disclaimer says:
    @Alfa158
    Prediction:
    Next phase will be using Ukraine as a dumping ground for overflow of third world immi-vaders.

    They wouldn’t go there: No welfare state.

  65. Guys, guys. There’s a real finger/moon situation developing on this thread.

    The historiography of the tragic AIDS pandemic can be debated at length by historians and scholars (hopefully, less so by activists), and thankfully the entire disaster is far more under control than it was in the 80s and 90s. That is not the point.

    The massive problem which confronts us right now, today, and frankly it is a terrifying one, is not the public health issue but the public information issue. What Steve is really pointing out here is the level of totalitarian control over public consciousness now held by Google. And of course the other tech Cthulhus.

    In stark contrast to a vigorous scholarly debate about the nature of the AIDS epidemic, 30 years from now when scholars ought to be debating the history of how the American people entirely lost control over their own public sphere and their own public discourse, the debate won’t even be /possible/ at that point, because all the information choke points by then will have been hermetically sealed by the Silicon Left pan-dictatorship. THAT is the AIDS-level crisis of our time. THAT is where the government fails to act, where awareness fails to be raised, where the “bathhouses” aren’t shut down.

    In an honest world, Google would rename itself Galactus. Hell, they probably will.

    • Replies: @DuanDiRen
    +1.

    The only thing I can think to do is buy actual books. I am making a concerted effort to buy books that are in danger of being disappeared, and to store them for my children. I suspect that their are a lot of books that were published in the 80s and 90s that will be beyond the pale for public consumption in the near future: The Man who would be Queen, Demonic Males, Principals of Population Genetics, Malvina Hoffman...
    , @guest
    Okay, but there are lots of opportunities on iSteve to discuss Google's stranglehold on our minds. This is an opportunity to vent anger at WWG for making us think about their disgusting habits
    , @vinteuil

    What Steve is really pointing out here is the level of totalitarian control over public consciousness now held by Google. And of course the other tech Cthulhus.
     
    I think prob'ly not. I think he's pointing out what he's pointing out, and not some other thing.
  66. @Michael S
    It basically does occur only in gay men. I forget the exact number, but I believe it was something like a black, gay man being 60 times more likely to contract HIV than a white heterosexual man. Remove the black, and it's still 20 or 30 times more likely.

    Not percent. Times. Gay men have about 95% of the AIDS, with gay black men being about 75% of that.

    I am hardly convinced that the spread of HIV in Africa isn't also related to homosexual behavior there; it's just much harder to track.

    I’ve read once that the AIDS numbers in Africa were all fake and created mostly to get more money from the West with a disease that was “popular” among celebrities at the time. But most were really dying of other diseases.

    I think it makes sense, because now we hear less about the problem of AIDS in Africa and we hear about other things such as Ebola, etc.

    That said, I think that AIDS was mostly related to gay sex, drug use, and general unhealthy lifestyles. I’m not even convinced that HIV is the main culprit, there are a few other theories.

  67. @Paleo Retiree
    I’m an old guy who lived in NYC during the late ‘70s and ‘80s and who hung out in the media and arts worlds — in other words, I lived in AIDS central. I also did a fair amount of reporting about the AIDS crisis for the magazine I worked for. I talked to doctors, researchers, and political people. I had many, many gay friends, some of whom were older (and from whom I learned a lot about what gay life in NYC was like before Gay Lib), and some of whom died of AIDS.

    A few of the things I learned:

    Anal sex wasn’t that common back in the pre Gay Lib days. Pre Gay Lib, gay guys mostly blew each other or jerked each other off. Some of the older gays I knew found gay anal sex distasteful and had never, ever had it.

    Unprotected buttfucking and wildly promiscuous sex were symbolically very important to the GayLib movement. It was part of the whole go-wild, liberation, revolutionary, bad-is-good and good-is-bad ethos of the time. Buttfucking and promiscuity were seen as, no fooling, Civil Rights matters (first struggles, then triumphs) by political gays. Put that drive together with the massive amount of drugs that were around and the result was a lot of incredibly crazy behavior.

    Even before HIV arrived, the ultra-partying gay crowd in the late ‘70s was already riddled with a lot of illness, which is part of what made them vulnerable to the HIV virus (which, contrary to what many of us have been told, is generally pretty hard to pass along).

    When scary cancers and unusual infections started cropping up, it took docs and scientists a little while to puzzle things out but pretty soon it was perfectly well understood that unprotected, promiscuous gay buttfucking was the main driver behind the spread of HIV/AIDS.

    The political gays were terrified of two things: 1) that straight mainstream America would turn on them; and 2) that the illness would be dealt with as a typical epidemic. They wanted the p-r benefits of screaming “epidemic,” yes — but they really, really didn’t want infected gays placed in quarantine, which of course would have ended the epidemic within a couple of years. They wanted the whole concept of quarantine to be undiscussable. And they also didn’t want to give up what they saw as their just-recently acquired civil right to promiscuous buttfucking. They weren’t gonna budge on that. So they launched the Safe Sex crusade.

    The strategy of the Safe Sex campaign was: In order to get funding and action and deflect criticism, scare the straights, even though (as Michael Fumento showed) straight America was never going to be much impacted by HIV/AIDS (not promiscuous enough); and in order to maintain the “right” to promiscuity and buttfucking while doing something to moderate the spread of HIV, urge gays to use condoms. The idea that gay guys who were doing a lot of promiscuous buttfucking were being major public health menaces was never to be permitted. Despite the fact that sex is a voluntary act, gays were to be seen as victims only. Life was to go on as it always had, only with condoms, a lot of screaming at the government, and (with luck) eventually some medical advances.

    The political gays who drove the Safe Sex response to the HIV/AIDS crisis were, in other words, responsible for tens if not hundreds of thousands of unnecessary deaths — the crazy but brilliant gay playwright Larry Kramer often made this point — as well as for scaring millions of straight people unnecessarily silly about *their* sex lives.

    Much more, and many graphic details, are in this posting from my old blog:

    http://www.2blowhards.com/archives/2007/02/aids_and_immune.html

    Your blog name is a perfect pun to this post.

    • Agree: Achmed E. Newman
  68. @Wilkey
    Pretty much this. "And the Band Played On" (which served in 1993 as a vanity project for a long list of stars) and "The Normal Heart" (Mark Ruffalo and Jim Parsons) both lay a lot of blame on the government, which was certainly well-deserved. But they also are both pretty blunt about the refusal of many gays to accept the threat was real. They are both well worth watching. Despite the occasional political jab, the story of the first stages of the epidemic is just too fascinating to ignore.

    A big percentage of the most famous people to die from AIDS probably were infected after the disease was a known danger. AIDS was also referred to as 4H disease - for homosexuals, Haitians, heroin addicts and hemophiliacs. So yes, it would have spread absent gay liberation. But anyone who thinks venues that were more tolerated thanks to liberation, like the bathhouses, didn't serve as accelerants is just fooling themselves.

    The movie “And the Band Played On” was a propaganda piece.

    The book was, intentional or not, a long slog, making it difficult to “see the trees for the forest”, (reversing the phrase).

    Shilts told the truth but hid the truth in the book. The movie was useless. Tim Richmond may have contracted AIDS from intravenous drug injections. He was a drug user. A healthy heterosexual man getting AIDS from even an HIV positive woman through vaginal sex or a bj is practically unknown. “If you don’t have a sore, you won’t get it thru heterosexual contact.” Magic Johnson had sex with trans women and probably men. (But it doesn’t pay for one to be complacent and take risks.)

    The powers that be have kept us in the dark. Shows their power.

  69. @Wilkey
    Pretty much this. "And the Band Played On" (which served in 1993 as a vanity project for a long list of stars) and "The Normal Heart" (Mark Ruffalo and Jim Parsons) both lay a lot of blame on the government, which was certainly well-deserved. But they also are both pretty blunt about the refusal of many gays to accept the threat was real. They are both well worth watching. Despite the occasional political jab, the story of the first stages of the epidemic is just too fascinating to ignore.

    A big percentage of the most famous people to die from AIDS probably were infected after the disease was a known danger. AIDS was also referred to as 4H disease - for homosexuals, Haitians, heroin addicts and hemophiliacs. So yes, it would have spread absent gay liberation. But anyone who thinks venues that were more tolerated thanks to liberation, like the bathhouses, didn't serve as accelerants is just fooling themselves.

    Both the book and its adaptation affirm the debauchery was indeed the problem. This scene has a good mix of the downright self-destructive patrons, the willfully ignorant enabler running the place, the condescending Jewess who wants to feign interest for appearances’ sake but not actually do anything (for politics’ sake), and the disinterested, horrified man with a practical bent too baffled by it all to even be effective. (Where can he even begin to sort out the shit-show he is confronting him at every turn? He is hopelessly trying to get a city full of bonobos to stop schtupping each other long enough for him to explain the rudimentary epidemiology to them they should have learned in their fifth-grade health classes….)

    The idea it was all about the Evil Apathetic Gubmint is a kind of projected value, made even worse now than it was at the time.

    That phenomenon of projection is common. A major analogue now is the adults on the planet saying “There are too many people and not enough resources for them; misery and destruction are accelerating – the savages must stop having ten children per couple!” with the stupid masses selectively hearing and projecting into it their own agenda. (“Hear, hear! Exactly right! We need to recycle more; use solar power; and let all the starving people into Europe, Australia, and North America, because those three continents have magically inexhaustible resources….”)

    Likewise here. The book’s point was “These people all acted irresponsibly, then went on doing so even as the chickens were coming home to roost, exacerbating the problem exponentially.” But it became in the popular (stupid) mindset “Look how the government, whose job it is to solve all the problems in the world, let one happen – obvi its because they are bigoted against homosexual men, whom everyone knows are paragons of virtue, self-control, and responsibility! This book and film totes called The Man to account!”

    • Replies: @The Germ Theory of Disease
    "The savages must stop having ten children per couple!"

    Per 'couple'. Heh.
    , @Feryl

    The idea it was all about the Evil Apathetic Gubmint is a kind of projected value, made even worse now than it was at the time.
     
    My take on that is that even many older people have forgotten how much sex and violence there was in the 70's and 80's, so it's become easier for people take pity on "victims" who in reality were living a (knowingly) dangerous lifestyle, and in fact, were often prey and predators alike.
  70. @TheMediumIsTheMassage
    Steve, please don't jump the shark. You know better than this. AIDS was caused by a great multitude of factors, not gays being able to somewhat live their lives without having to hide in fear of being thrown in jail/fired/etc in the 70s. We were still having sex in the decades prior, FYI. I'd encourage you to read 'And the Band Played On' by Randy Shilts, one of the definitive texts on the early days of the AIDS epidemic. The faults of many gay community leaders, bathhouse owners, etc. are laid bare in that book, but it's far more than just them. The government and medical institutions failed to respond; the media failed to report on the topic, pressure the government for funds, and help deliver public health warnings; blood banks refused to heed warnings from scientists.

    If it had been treated the way Legionnaire's Disease was a few years prior, the number of victims would have been enormously reduced, but it was essentially allowed to spread unchecked until the mid to late 80s. Gay community activists who put sexual liberation first and protested against bathhouse closure and widespread, direct public health campaigns are certainly to blame as well, but they were also operating from a place of (understandable) deep mistrust towards the government.

    At any rate, AIDS would have spread even if there hadn't been any gay liberation because of African immigrants and intravenous drug users, in whom the spread of the disease was entirely separate from the gay community rooted in New York and San Francisco in the early 80s. The first cases in many European countries, for example, were in African immigrants. The disease was coming to America and the rest of the world no matter what. The long latent period of the virus (over 5 years on average) and the fact that the world was already quite globalized with constant air travel ensured that.

    Today, AIDS affects several orders of magnitude more people in Africa, which has nothing to do with gay liberation.

    The band may have played on, but the captain and his crew abandoned ship.

    Don’t kid yourself.

    https://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/wild-west-male-sexual-desire-cormac-mccarthy-gay/

  71. Gay liberation led to AIDS, then…

    AIDS led directly to gay marriage.

    The chief motivation for the gay marriage movement which arose in the 1980’s was to enable AIDS sufferers to tap the employment-based health insurance policies of their homosexual partners. This was a serious thing. Gay men with AIDS would get too sick to work and lose their own health insurance, then they would be too poor to afford all the costly medical care they needed. They looked around and saw that when straight husbands or wives got too sick to work they would often remain insured under their spouses’ plans. The gays wanted the same arrangement.

    At first this was the main organizing point of the gay marriage movement, complete with media profiles of sympathetic gay couples, one sick, the other still in pretty good shape. However, the financial motive seemed a little crass. Worse, forcing employers’ health-insurance plans to take on gay spouses who were already sick with a very costly disease (in those days before antivirals) was a type of “pre-existing condition” problem— suddenly having to pay for unexpected AIDS victims meant reducing benefits for all other workers and their families. (Insurance rates had been set to cover gay workers getting sick just like straight workers, but not to cover unexpected “gay spouses.”)

    The gay marriage movement wasn’t stupid. Soon it soft-pedaled the whole insurance thing; started to emphasize the intense social longing of gays to marry and live monogamous lives of mutual devotion; claimed that AIDS was caused by the lack of gay marriage which virtually forced gays into promiscuity; asserted that failure to offer marriage licenses to gay couples was exactly the same thing as denying them to interracial straight couples; and finally, with some justice, complained that without gay marriage to give them legal power some gays were frozen out of final care decisions and funeral arrangements for their AIDS-afflicted partners by the aging parents of those partners who resented the fact that homosexual acquaintances had killed their sons by infecting them with AIDS.

    The first- and second-phase gay marriage movement won enough public (or at least political) sympathy to obtain “domestic partner” laws which delivered the “spousal” health insurance and legal privileges. However, when antiviral drugs softened the AIDS disaster so much that it ceased to worry gays, much less the general public, the leaders of the gay-marriage movement were not prepared to give up a good gig. They decided “domestic partner” status was not as dignified as (straight) marriage. Worse, they decided that since they had whipped AIDS (not true, of course; mostly-straight medical researchers had done that) they could whip “homophobia” too— force recalcitrant straights not just to tolerate homosexuals and pay to treat their STD’s, but to endorse gayness under pain of legal punishment for any lack of enthusiasm. So the movement for “gay marriage” became the movement for gay marriage, not “undignified” domestic-partnership, of which the whole point was to destroy the free-speech rights of “homophobes” since the practical demands that first animated the movement had all been won already.

    • Agree: Grace Jones
    • Replies: @Ris_Eruwaedhiel
    I wonder if Mayor Pete Buttplug's married because it makes him look relatively respectable?

    TV shows like "Modern Family" present "married" gay couples as very like straight couples, except, in this case, the couple consists of two men. The reality is that even "committed" male gay couples don't value fidelity and most "marriages" are short-lived. Gay marriage is more popular with lesbians, anyway.
    , @Anonymous
    Right. Follow the money. Always.
    , @Jim Don Bob
    Agree. Well said.
  72. @Buzz Mohawk
    Looking back, some of us should be kinda pissed off about the whole gAIDS scare.

    Some of us active heterosexuals were so freaked out by the propaganda that we were getting AIDS tests just to make sure everything was all right. Media encouraged us to do so. Now we realize that it was all unnecessary and there was no reason for us to worry -- because all we were doing was putting the right parts together, and with reasonable numbers of partners too.

    Thanks for putting a turd in our punchbowl, fags.

    I knew two different homosexual men who died of AIDS. I never knew anybody who even knew someone who knew someone who knew a heterosexual person who got it, much less died of it. It simply didn't happen, not through sex anyway.

    ‘ …I never knew anybody who even knew someone who knew someone who knew a heterosexual person who got it, much less died of it. It simply didn’t happen, not through sex anyway…’

    Indeed. I wonder what the odds actually are of contracting AIDS if you’re not black, not gay, don’t use intravenous drugs, and don’t have sex with anyone who is in those categories.

    …I suspect you might as well worry about shark attack.

    • Replies: @Lurker
    In the 1980s (in the UK) we were regularly told that "AIDS doesn't discriminate".

    But it turned out that AIDS does discriminate after all.

    , @The Alarmist

    ... I suspect you might as well worry about shark attack ....
     
    You're more likely to die while taking a selfie.
    , @everybodyhatesscott
    If you're a white or asian heterosexual man, you don't even show up on the CDC new HIV infections chart. So yes, you might as well worry about a shark attack. I suspect truly straight black men have a fairly low risk as well and they're just playing loose with the term straight but I could be mistaken
    , @Anounder
    You left out either not having intercourse outside your race, not having having genital focused sex, not having sex with anyone who engaged in sodomy (which includes "heterosexuals")...
    , @orionyx
    I can't give you the reference, but in the late 80s or early 90s there was a study done in the Netherlands involving 300 married hetero male hemophiliacs who had contracted AIDS from tainted Factor VIII infusions (perhaps from Arkansas).
    All these men were having regular sex with their wives at least once a week.
    They were followed for 2 years.
    Not one of the wives of these men contracted AIDS during the study.
    This would indicate that the risk of a woman contacting AIDS via normal vaginal sex with an infected straight partner is less than 1 in 3000.
    So much for the virus not discriminating.
  73. @doxmenot
    The reason AIDS is present in heterosexuals in the third world (but rarely spread heterosexually in the first world) is explained by the poor health of third worlders. A prostitute or client or citizen in the third world is far more likely to have untreated diseases such as syphilis or gonorrhea or other conditions. This makes men and women more susceptible to AIDS transmission in the third world.

    In first world countries men rarely contract AIDS from women in ordinary sex acts. Randy Shilts talks of the rarity of heterosexual transmission of AIDS to men in his book "And the Band Played On", (published about 1987).

    The MSM and the University, and religious groups are content to hide this information. How many people have heard this thirty years after Shilts's NYT "bestselling" book?

    ‘The reason AIDS is present in heterosexuals in the third world (but rarely spread heterosexually in the first world) is explained by the poor health of third worlders…’

    No, it’s a black thing, not a poor thing. AIDS rates in Africa are literally an order of magnitude higher than they are anywhere else, and that includes lots of non-black third-world countries.

    • Replies: @The Anti-Gnostic
    It's a behavioral thing: anal intercourse, drug use, and hyper-promiscuity. Blacks exhibit less impulse control on average, so blacks have higher rates of HIV and other sexually transmitted infections.
  74. Anon[265] • Disclaimer says:

    Remember that book on patient zero, the flight attendant guy? I was surprised a few years ago to learn that the book and its author have been cancelled. Apparently the gay community considers it the equivalent of Mein Kampf or The Bell Curve. At the time it was highly respected, somewhat in the same category of solid investigative journalism as the recent Theranos book.

    At any rate, there have been several supposed findings in preserved tissue of HIV from patients who died decades prior to the AIDS outbreak in the US. If that’s true, then a real case could be made that gay lib was indeed the culprit. In other words, in the less promiscuous society prior to gay lib HIV just puttered along killing the odd victim, but in the Bathhouse-opocene Era it exponentially exploded.

    By the way, I recently discovered the world of discussion boards and blogs of children of gay couples. It’s my impression that a lot of them are not happy and are kind of screwed up. Looking for research on the matter I stumbled into the world of researchers who cannot get kids-of-gays research funded. It’s taboo, apparently, to even study it, for to do so would be to imply that everything is possibly not copacetic.

    • Replies: @Paleo Liberal
    Many years ago I read in New Scientist, a British publication, that the tissues of an English sailor who died in London in 1959 was shown to have been a death by AIDS.

    The sailor in question was thought to have contracted the disease during his trips to Africa.

    This shows how luck of the draw affects life

    Suppose more sailors had contracted AIDS. Suppose they lived long enough to give AIDS to a number of prostitutes in British ports, and suppose the disease spread around London and Liverpool and the like just when promiscuous sex and IV drug use were spreading.

    Instead of a gay flight attendant in the 70s, had luck gone another way AIDS could have come to the US with the British Invasion, spreading through young people with sex and IV drug use.

    All in all, the AIDS epidemic in the US was a mere sideshow to the vastly larger epidemic in Africa. It was inevitable that the disease would reach the US. It was a matter of when and how.
    , @Desiderius
    This is the crux of the whole thing, from the perspective of “how could anyone possibly have any problem with the poz?” and Kennedy’s execrable answer in Obergefell of animus alone.

    Kids do better with their moms and dads. We have a whole generation of children of divorce and broken families chafing hard at the denial of this truth, the denial of even its possibility. This is the motive force behind the present culture war.

    The elites (sic) are on the wrong side.
    , @Diversity Heretic
    I've often wondered whether HIV has been around a very long time, and is one of the reasons for the taboo on homosexual conduct. As long as homosexuals were forced to stay "in the closet," the rate of HIV transmission was pretty low. But when homosexuality became publicly acceptable, the high levels of promiscuity in the homosexual community started resulting in large numbers of deaths. People noticed.
  75. • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    People watch a lot of TV.

    ipso, facto, and all that ....
    , @ken
    Probably 20 cheerleaders for every homo during the past month.
  76. @Mr. Anon
    It is now being said that the Stonewall Inn was raided, at least in part, becuase it served alcohol to minors. I guess that was a twofer for the owners: they got business from the minors who showed up to drink, and from the homosexual men who showed up for the minors.

    And yet we are assured t0day that it was all very innocent and wholesome.

    Gays have always had a strong sexual preference for teens. This is not widely discussed in polite society anymore, but it’s a fact of gay life.

    • Replies: @Ris_Eruwaedhiel
    In cultures that tolerate homosexual activity (e.g., the Moslem world), the accepted relationship is an older man with a boy or very young man. A 30-year-old man and a 12-year-old boy would be acceptable; two 30-year-old men would be considered sick.

    Men have also been universally expected to marry women and have children. In the Moslem world, only the most ardent fundie would object if a married man with children kept a harem of boys on the side.

    In other words, homosexual activity is acceptable as a side dish, not the main course. That's what's unique in today's world.
  77. @Anonymous
    In the UK, BBC TV news is *absolutely obsessed* with marking the 50th anniversary of the Stonewall Riots. It has been a leading news item for at least a week - that and the women's soccer.
    Curiously, Stonewall has or had very very little to do with legislative attitudes toward homosexuality in the UK.
    It's also noteworthy that the BBC is more or less completely ignoring the 50th anniversary of the Apollo moon landing, which is fast approaching.

    The moon landing was accomplished by white men therefore it’s not something to be celebrated by the PC left.

  78. @Anonymous
    In the UK, BBC TV news is *absolutely obsessed* with marking the 50th anniversary of the Stonewall Riots. It has been a leading news item for at least a week - that and the women's soccer.
    Curiously, Stonewall has or had very very little to do with legislative attitudes toward homosexuality in the UK.
    It's also noteworthy that the BBC is more or less completely ignoring the 50th anniversary of the Apollo moon landing, which is fast approaching.

    Duh. There are homos in Britain, but the Apollo Project was just uppity colonials. And they can imply that any annoyance caused by British gays is the result of the aforementioned colonials.

  79. @Precious
    Today, AIDS affects several orders of magnitude more people in Africa, which has nothing to do with gay liberation.

    Most of your post is just making excuses, but this is flat out wrong.

    The testing for AIDS in Africa is a joke. Africans know that if they tell Westerners that they have a lot of malaria cases, they get a small trickle of money. But if they tell Westerners they have a lot of AIDS cases, then lots of money gets sent. So they have AIDS instead of the hundreds of other diseases that have been prevalent in Africa since time immemorial.

    Absolutely correct. I praise you for your straightforward and knowledgeable comment.

  80. @Jim Christian

    One of the earliest recognized symptoms was referred to as Gay Bowel Syndrome. Try saying that today.
     
    They're saying it today, only quietly and with another motive. Ever notice all the commercials for new scrips and OTC remedies for all sorts of bowel disorders all the way out to a slew of HepC drugs being pushed out? The fisting/anal sex/glory-hole disorders are showing themselves in all sorts of ways, not the least being commercial, especially with women as frequent targets of the advertising for such 'remedies'.

    Reagan was responsible for AIDS only in that he didn't outlaw gay bathhouses and orgies and double down on public health announcements telling the truth of these activities.

    The medical establishment as a whole never treated AIDS as it did other venereal diseases. Physicians did not ask AIDS patients with whom they had sex, and therefore did not follow up with them.

    • Replies: @Fen Tiger

    Physicians did not ask AIDS patients with whom they had sex, and therefore did not follow up with them.
     
    Anecdotally, a friend of mine was a newly-qualified neurologist who had landed a career-making opportunity: to interview everyone found to be HIV-positive in the southern half of England in a year. This was early in the epidemic.

    A year or two later, I met him and talk turned to careers. He was downcast: it was clear, he said, that a huge AIDS epidemic was not going to happen. This was a surprise to me, because the UK's safe-sex propaganda campaign was already in progress.

    When I asked why, he said (I quote from memory), "it's not that AIDS isn't lethal: pretty much everyone I interviewed is now dead; it's that the main factor in the best epidemiological model we've got as yet is the average number of sexual partners per year across a population - squared. The average yearly number of partners for heterosexuals aged 20-40 in the UK is less than 2; most of the people I interviewed would think nothing of having several times that number of partners in a weekend - or an evening."

    Turned out he was right. The officials and politicians who pushed the "not a gay plague" line knew - or had no excuse for not knowing - it was false, almost from the beginning; but they did it anyway.
    , @Niccolo Salo
    "Physicians did not ask AIDS patients with whom they had sex, and therefore did not follow up with them."

    The CDC definitely did and it was thanks to the cooperation of French Canadian Flight Attendant Gaetan Dugas that they were able to compile their first cluster study. Unfortunately for Dugas an improper reading of this cluster study made him the infamous "Patient Zero". This was due to the fact that he not only had his black book with him at all times but because he was able to name so many partners and wasn't shy about doing so. His mobility as a flight attendant allowed the CDC researchers to link NYC, SF, and LA.

    But as I mentioned in another post many of these records were destroyed, particularly those in San Francisco, in order to 'protect privacy' i.e. spare gays of embarrassment and hand over damaging evidence of their behaviours to those not fond of their activities and the lifestyles that they were promoting.
  81. With Corporate American stridently celebrating Stonewall Pride ….

    It was all over UK and Western European TV news too.

    Or does everybody now believe AIDS was the fault of Ronald Reagan (or, for the more hep, Nancy Reagan)?

    It was definitely Nancy. There were two U-2 flights: The one take took GWB to meet with the Iranians and secure the release of the spies hostages; another to take Nancy to the secret See-Aye-Ay lab deep in the Congo to obtain the weaponised AIDS that would be released into the gay population. She then planted it in party refreshments supplied to Ronnie Jr. who unwittingly introduced it into the the community and spread it.

    Sorry, this is just a sick joke, but no sicker that the Dem hyperventilation about the alleged GWB flight to meet the Iranians.

    • Replies: @Simply Simon
    I always heard it was GHWB who flew to Iran in a SR-71.
  82. @Colin Wright
    ' ...I never knew anybody who even knew someone who knew someone who knew a heterosexual person who got it, much less died of it. It simply didn’t happen, not through sex anyway...'

    Indeed. I wonder what the odds actually are of contracting AIDS if you're not black, not gay, don't use intravenous drugs, and don't have sex with anyone who is in those categories.

    ...I suspect you might as well worry about shark attack.

    In the 1980s (in the UK) we were regularly told that “AIDS doesn’t discriminate”.

    But it turned out that AIDS does discriminate after all.

  83. anon[169] • Disclaimer says:
    @TheMediumIsTheMassage
    I've seen this posted a lot on places like iSteve and its lower IQ counterparts (/pol/, Et. al.). Yes, it was called GRID because they thought it only happened in gay men. A few years later and 'GRID' became obsolete because they realized it was the same disease affecting drug users, Africans, haemophiliacs, etc. Nowadays the vast majority of people infected with HIV are not gay men.

    You know that HIV in the US is primarily a disease among MSM. It is secondarily associated with IV drug use transgressive behaviors like IV Drug abuse. And not surprisingly blacks. It is essentially absent in white males who don’t have MSM and don’t abuse IV drugs.

    The vast majority of HIV in the US is among MSM.

    • Replies: @TheMediumIsTheMassage
    I meant globally, I really did! "AIDS epidemic" has been a global thing since the 80s and the majority of new cases have been in Africa since the 90s. I am aware that in the US the majority of cases are among gay men. Concern over HIV is still a huge thing today in gay world. In fact PrEP, the pill you can take that supposedly makes you unable to get it (think of it as a vaccine you need to take every morning) really concerns me because it's leading to an increase in other STDs since less guys use condoms now. Cue "well it IS the gays fault after all!".

    Apparently a lot of people are telling me that the HIV/AIDS cases in Africa are also related to gay sex. I've done a lot of research on the subject and it's not what I've found. What I did find is that researchers were surprised by how promiscuous the women were. Also, untreated venereal diseases in men make HIV much easier to transmit in PIV (penis in vagina) sex, yes that's a medical term. Herpes sores mean the virus can get in through there. Apparently there's a lot more of that in Africa too. Always happy to be proven wrong!
  84. @Clifford Brown
    On the plus side, the subways this weekend in New York worked. Gay Pride makes the trains run on time.

    For about the last eight years or more, subway service in New York on weekends is subject to confusing and maddening restrictions due to ever constant "repair" that is never done or improved. I had several errands to run this weekend and with great reservation checked the MTA Weekender App to see what lines would be shut down. But lo!, like a gift from God On High... ALL LINES WERE FULLY OPERATIONAL THIS WEEKEND IN HONOR OF PRIDE WEEKEND. I was ecstatic. I'm sure MTA workers were being paid double time in order to work the Gay Pride holiday, but who cares.

    I would accept a "Gay Pride Century" if it meant the subway was half way functional on a weekend. I am a man of humble needs.

    Speaking of The Gay, Diana Ross concert in Central Park. Near the end of the clip, Ms. Ross cajoles the various hooligans that invaded Central Park and were mugging her poor fans. This would not happen today. Somethings have improved. This should be acknowledged.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXWDwVY-270

    On the plus side, the subways this weekend in New York worked. Gay Pride makes the trains run on time.

    One of the funnier things I experienced in NYC was at roughly 9pm while waiting on the 51st street subway platform in NYC, when an announcement blared over the speakers that the 6-train was being held at Grand Central to get it back on schedule; more than a few people said something to the effect of, “They have a schedule?”

  85. @Bruno
    Is there an affinity between AIDS and gays and Africans other than promiscuity (higher average number of partner of the group and perhaps more anal intercourses ) ?

    Because straight people having more sex doesn’t result individually in high chances of getting aid. So it must be something related to the level of promiscuity of the group.

    I read that in big cities where dating apps are used, number of STD among straight people has soared to gay levels. So my guess it’s that the group promiscuity average, more than medical idiosyncrasies of blacks and gays, causes std.

    Is there an affinity between AIDS and gays and Africans other than promiscuity (higher average number of partner of the group and perhaps more anal intercourses )

    You are missing IV drug abuse. AAs are vastly overrepresented in the sex trade and drugs.

    • Replies: @guest
    AA s are also freely discriminated against in the sex trade. Prostitutes, especially black ones, openly advertise that they don't accept black dudes.

    This for a number of reasons, among them their high rate of infectiousness.
  86. @Colin Wright
    ' ...I never knew anybody who even knew someone who knew someone who knew a heterosexual person who got it, much less died of it. It simply didn’t happen, not through sex anyway...'

    Indeed. I wonder what the odds actually are of contracting AIDS if you're not black, not gay, don't use intravenous drugs, and don't have sex with anyone who is in those categories.

    ...I suspect you might as well worry about shark attack.

    … I suspect you might as well worry about shark attack ….

    You’re more likely to die while taking a selfie.

  87. @Clifford Brown
    On the plus side, the subways this weekend in New York worked. Gay Pride makes the trains run on time.

    For about the last eight years or more, subway service in New York on weekends is subject to confusing and maddening restrictions due to ever constant "repair" that is never done or improved. I had several errands to run this weekend and with great reservation checked the MTA Weekender App to see what lines would be shut down. But lo!, like a gift from God On High... ALL LINES WERE FULLY OPERATIONAL THIS WEEKEND IN HONOR OF PRIDE WEEKEND. I was ecstatic. I'm sure MTA workers were being paid double time in order to work the Gay Pride holiday, but who cares.

    I would accept a "Gay Pride Century" if it meant the subway was half way functional on a weekend. I am a man of humble needs.

    Speaking of The Gay, Diana Ross concert in Central Park. Near the end of the clip, Ms. Ross cajoles the various hooligans that invaded Central Park and were mugging her poor fans. This would not happen today. Somethings have improved. This should be acknowledged.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXWDwVY-270

    I would accept a “Gay Pride Century”

    Good news, buddy-ro! You’re livin’ in it!

  88. @Bruno
    Is there an affinity between AIDS and gays and Africans other than promiscuity (higher average number of partner of the group and perhaps more anal intercourses ) ?

    Because straight people having more sex doesn’t result individually in high chances of getting aid. So it must be something related to the level of promiscuity of the group.

    I read that in big cities where dating apps are used, number of STD among straight people has soared to gay levels. So my guess it’s that the group promiscuity average, more than medical idiosyncrasies of blacks and gays, causes std.

    The anus easily gets teared in a way that leaves open access to the bloodstream quite easily. So gay “bottoms” get “pozzed” (their term) quite easily if they are having anal sex with infected men. They also do weird stuff like eat other’s asses which has led to all sorts of disgusting stuff like getting parasites and the Giardia thing from a couple years back.

    Similarly, the rates of infection are different between heterosexual men and women. The vagina can get such tears as well though not as easily, but heterosexual men are much less likely to be infected because it’s much harder for a man to contract this disease than a woman due to the specifics of biology involved. Even if a heterosexual man has unprotected sex with an HIV-infected woman he only has a small percent chance of actually getting it. How heterosexual women get diseases in general is that they are offering up virtual harems to infected but attractive men. This is another reason why promiscuity tends to be bad. This is also reflected in the fact that women always have higher rates of diseases than the men of their own racial group.

    Heterosexual white and east Asian men tend to have the lowest rates of all diseases because of a combination of biology and low time preference, high impulse control.

    I highly doubt the levels of STDs among heterosexuals is anywhere near gays, but it probably has gone up within big cities and with dating apps since what you see is a more pronounced Pareto distribution of a small percentage of men getting most of the sex and some of them can act as disease vectors. Gays have much higher numbers of sex partners but also there’s the biological issue I mentioned previously there as well.

    • Replies: @Clyde
    Simply put, the male and female anus is not the right place to have sex. You can be gay or hetero but bad idea to stick yr dick in there. But go ahead and do it, poke, poke, poke and poke away at anuses, just don't make me pay you via my tax burden for your idiocy and diseases.
    Poop chute means out, not in.
  89. @Ghost of Bull Moose
    It is true that AIDS has nothing to do with homosexuality per se. But AIDS is associated with promiscuity. I've read a good bit of the Randy Shilts book, and some of the scenes described are almost beyond belief in their depravity. Now, many gay men pair off and live long lives and bully for them. But when older gay men reflect on how 8 of the 10 guys in this photo from Fire Island in 1980 are dead from AIDS, there's a reason for it.

    While there are promiscuous heterosexuals, it just isn't part of hetero culture the way it is for gay men. Anonymous sex with multiple partners just isn't as common. Heteros do not have glory holes, they do not host circuit parties, they do not cruise, they do not wander into the ramble in Central Park or the dunes of Fire Island looking for literally anyone to have sex with. There are no straight bug chasers. There are no straight bath houses or secret library bathrooms or whatever where straight people hook up. What Steve is saying is that this culture was de-stigmatized and even celebrated and this led directly to a much higher rate of AIDS among gay men. Not to mention the fact that gay men have a much higher rate of virtually every other STD.

    Studies of AIDS in Africa had to be redone because researchers realized that they couldn't just focus on male promiscuity; the women were also extremely promiscuous ( also, there are more 'men who have sex with men' who do not identify as gay in Africa). AIDS transmission is related to culture or lifestyle. Drug addicts have a culture, too, that lends itself to AIDS transmission.

    It's not coincidence that closing down the wrecks in the Hudson River near the Village and the bathhouses and a massive PR campaign encouraging gay men to be more responsible in their behavior led to a decrease in the rate of transmission. From the beginning of the PR campaign, another message was that this was not just a gay man's disease and that anyone could get it, Beckys and Chads in the suburbs would be infected in the 1,000s any day now. But that never happened, did it?

    While there are promiscuous heterosexuals, it just isn’t part of hetero culture the way it is for gay men. Anonymous sex with multiple partners just isn’t as common.

    I would just add this is common also of bisexuals & sometimes of straight men, but not in such a measure. I remember reading Prince Kropotkin’s memoirs & a deliberate salacious stuff like Casanova’s memoirs or Suetonius’ lives of Caesars.

    As Tacitus had said abut these types of people:
    http://classics.mit.edu/Tacitus/annals.6.vi.html

    And so died Tiberius, in the seventy eighth year of his age. Nero was his father, and he was on both sides descended from the Claudian house, though his mother passed by adoption, first into the Livian, then into the Julian family. From earliest infancy, perilous vicissitudes were his lot. Himself an exile, he was the companion of a proscribed father, and on being admitted as a stepson into the house of Augustus, he had to struggle with many rivals, so long as Marcellus and Agrippa and, subsequently, Caius and Lucius Caesar were in their glory. Again his brother Drusus enjoyed in a greater degree the affection of the citizens. But he was more than ever on dangerous ground after his marriage with Julia, whether he tolerated or escaped from his wife’s profligacy. On his return from Rhodes he ruled the emperor’s now heirless house for twelve years, and the Roman world, with absolute sway, for about twenty-three. His character too had its distinct periods. It was a bright time in his life and reputation, while under Augustus he was a private citizen or held high offices; a time of reserve and crafty assumption of virtue, as long as Germanicus and Drusus were alive. Again, while his mother lived, he was a compound of good and evil; he was infamous for his cruelty, though he veiled his debaucheries, while he loved or feared Sejanus. Finally, he plunged into every wickedness and disgrace, when fear and shame being cast off, he simply indulged his own inclinations.

  90. @Ghost of Bull Moose
    It is true that AIDS has nothing to do with homosexuality per se. But AIDS is associated with promiscuity. I've read a good bit of the Randy Shilts book, and some of the scenes described are almost beyond belief in their depravity. Now, many gay men pair off and live long lives and bully for them. But when older gay men reflect on how 8 of the 10 guys in this photo from Fire Island in 1980 are dead from AIDS, there's a reason for it.

    While there are promiscuous heterosexuals, it just isn't part of hetero culture the way it is for gay men. Anonymous sex with multiple partners just isn't as common. Heteros do not have glory holes, they do not host circuit parties, they do not cruise, they do not wander into the ramble in Central Park or the dunes of Fire Island looking for literally anyone to have sex with. There are no straight bug chasers. There are no straight bath houses or secret library bathrooms or whatever where straight people hook up. What Steve is saying is that this culture was de-stigmatized and even celebrated and this led directly to a much higher rate of AIDS among gay men. Not to mention the fact that gay men have a much higher rate of virtually every other STD.

    Studies of AIDS in Africa had to be redone because researchers realized that they couldn't just focus on male promiscuity; the women were also extremely promiscuous ( also, there are more 'men who have sex with men' who do not identify as gay in Africa). AIDS transmission is related to culture or lifestyle. Drug addicts have a culture, too, that lends itself to AIDS transmission.

    It's not coincidence that closing down the wrecks in the Hudson River near the Village and the bathhouses and a massive PR campaign encouraging gay men to be more responsible in their behavior led to a decrease in the rate of transmission. From the beginning of the PR campaign, another message was that this was not just a gay man's disease and that anyone could get it, Beckys and Chads in the suburbs would be infected in the 1,000s any day now. But that never happened, did it?

    While there are promiscuous heterosexuals, it just isn’t part of hetero culture the way it is for gay men.

    The problem with hetero promiscuity is you have to find a willing, f***able female. This involves a lot more time and effort than boring a glory hole in a bathroom stall.

    There doesn’t seem to be any challenge at all to homosexuality. That’s the problem.

    • Replies: @Ray Huffman
    The problem with hetero promiscuity is you have to find a willing, f***able female. This involves a lot more time and effort than boring a glory hole in a bathroom stall.

    There doesn’t seem to be any challenge at all to homosexuality. That’s the problem.

    Right. A much overlooked fact is that they're not promiscuous because they're gay; they're promiscuous because they're men.

  91. Three things: First, while it’s clear that men are more inclined to promiscuity than women and thus that male homosexuals are more likely to be promiscuous than male heterosexuals, I don’t see why we shouldn’t accord at least some part of the reason for the extraordinary excesses of the liberation era to the misery of the closet. Unhappiness in anyone can lead to self-destructive behavior. Second, we shouldn’t forget that heterosexuals too were testing the notion (remember “The Harrad Experiment”?) in those years that every bit of sexual inhibition they might feel was a dismal holdover from a repressive age that was expiring. Third, an anecdote: I was living in San Francisco in the late 70s and early 80s, and for about half a year let a visiting colleague stay in our spare bedroom. He was an active participant in the bathhouse orgies, and he liked to try to shock the relatively inexperienced heterosexual that I was with such invitations as “Let me take you to the bathhouse tonight and show you what manly sex is all about,” and such reports as “Last night I had my arms up to here [indicating his elbows] in that boy’s asshole.” He became horribly sick and was hospitalized during that time, but he survived another couple of years before dying of AIDS.

    • Replies: @Pericles

    I don’t see why we shouldn’t accord at least some part of the reason for the extraordinary excesses of the liberation era to the misery of the closet.

     

    Things seem to be going on outside the closet much as they were inside the closet.
    , @Jake
    The ending of your post shows that the opening is no better than PC-approved cliches that may honestly spring from a desire to see all peoples as relatively equal.
    , @stillCARealist
    Was the closet really miserable? What's wrong with keeping one's dark side in a safe space?

    "I just had to kill her, doc. If I hadn't, I don't know what I would have done." --The estimable TD.

    I suspect plenty of these guys who went wild with promiscuity were deep in mental illness that would get some sort of name like sociopathy now.
  92. @Old fogey
    The medical establishment as a whole never treated AIDS as it did other venereal diseases. Physicians did not ask AIDS patients with whom they had sex, and therefore did not follow up with them.

    Physicians did not ask AIDS patients with whom they had sex, and therefore did not follow up with them.

    Anecdotally, a friend of mine was a newly-qualified neurologist who had landed a career-making opportunity: to interview everyone found to be HIV-positive in the southern half of England in a year. This was early in the epidemic.

    A year or two later, I met him and talk turned to careers. He was downcast: it was clear, he said, that a huge AIDS epidemic was not going to happen. This was a surprise to me, because the UK’s safe-sex propaganda campaign was already in progress.

    When I asked why, he said (I quote from memory), “it’s not that AIDS isn’t lethal: pretty much everyone I interviewed is now dead; it’s that the main factor in the best epidemiological model we’ve got as yet is the average number of sexual partners per year across a population – squared. The average yearly number of partners for heterosexuals aged 20-40 in the UK is less than 2; most of the people I interviewed would think nothing of having several times that number of partners in a weekend – or an evening.”

    Turned out he was right. The officials and politicians who pushed the “not a gay plague” line knew – or had no excuse for not knowing – it was false, almost from the beginning; but they did it anyway.

    • Replies: @John Pepple
    Not only the promiscuity, but the ability to have several partners in an evening was the result of using drugs that enhanced sexual performance. It was the thesis of the researcher Peter Duesberg that that drug use was the cause of the rare cancers that gay men were getting. Yes, I know that the Wikipedia article on Duesberg says that that thesis has been discredited, but I do not trust the science in any area that has strong political repercussions.
  93. @TheMediumIsTheMassage
    Steve, please don't jump the shark. You know better than this. AIDS was caused by a great multitude of factors, not gays being able to somewhat live their lives without having to hide in fear of being thrown in jail/fired/etc in the 70s. We were still having sex in the decades prior, FYI. I'd encourage you to read 'And the Band Played On' by Randy Shilts, one of the definitive texts on the early days of the AIDS epidemic. The faults of many gay community leaders, bathhouse owners, etc. are laid bare in that book, but it's far more than just them. The government and medical institutions failed to respond; the media failed to report on the topic, pressure the government for funds, and help deliver public health warnings; blood banks refused to heed warnings from scientists.

    If it had been treated the way Legionnaire's Disease was a few years prior, the number of victims would have been enormously reduced, but it was essentially allowed to spread unchecked until the mid to late 80s. Gay community activists who put sexual liberation first and protested against bathhouse closure and widespread, direct public health campaigns are certainly to blame as well, but they were also operating from a place of (understandable) deep mistrust towards the government.

    At any rate, AIDS would have spread even if there hadn't been any gay liberation because of African immigrants and intravenous drug users, in whom the spread of the disease was entirely separate from the gay community rooted in New York and San Francisco in the early 80s. The first cases in many European countries, for example, were in African immigrants. The disease was coming to America and the rest of the world no matter what. The long latent period of the virus (over 5 years on average) and the fact that the world was already quite globalized with constant air travel ensured that.

    Today, AIDS affects several orders of magnitude more people in Africa, which has nothing to do with gay liberation.

    “If it had been treated the way Legionnaire’s Disease was a few years prior, the number of victims would have been enormously reduced, but it was essentially allowed to spread unchecked until the mid to late 80s”

    Not with a 6 to 10 year latency period.

  94. @Ghost of Bull Moose
    It is true that AIDS has nothing to do with homosexuality per se. But AIDS is associated with promiscuity. I've read a good bit of the Randy Shilts book, and some of the scenes described are almost beyond belief in their depravity. Now, many gay men pair off and live long lives and bully for them. But when older gay men reflect on how 8 of the 10 guys in this photo from Fire Island in 1980 are dead from AIDS, there's a reason for it.

    While there are promiscuous heterosexuals, it just isn't part of hetero culture the way it is for gay men. Anonymous sex with multiple partners just isn't as common. Heteros do not have glory holes, they do not host circuit parties, they do not cruise, they do not wander into the ramble in Central Park or the dunes of Fire Island looking for literally anyone to have sex with. There are no straight bug chasers. There are no straight bath houses or secret library bathrooms or whatever where straight people hook up. What Steve is saying is that this culture was de-stigmatized and even celebrated and this led directly to a much higher rate of AIDS among gay men. Not to mention the fact that gay men have a much higher rate of virtually every other STD.

    Studies of AIDS in Africa had to be redone because researchers realized that they couldn't just focus on male promiscuity; the women were also extremely promiscuous ( also, there are more 'men who have sex with men' who do not identify as gay in Africa). AIDS transmission is related to culture or lifestyle. Drug addicts have a culture, too, that lends itself to AIDS transmission.

    It's not coincidence that closing down the wrecks in the Hudson River near the Village and the bathhouses and a massive PR campaign encouraging gay men to be more responsible in their behavior led to a decrease in the rate of transmission. From the beginning of the PR campaign, another message was that this was not just a gay man's disease and that anyone could get it, Beckys and Chads in the suburbs would be infected in the 1,000s any day now. But that never happened, did it?

    I think the politically correct response to AIDS was just another manifestation of the constant that is progressive thinking.

    The progressive mind seems to always focus on symbolism, narratives, and virtue signalling at the expense of reality.

    So all the progressive effort was put into “destigmatizing” AIDS victims and treating the disease as a civil rights issue. They didn’t worry so much, however, about taking the actual steps necessary to minimize the death toll.

    If the disease, by contrast, had struck only, say, little girls, we would have imposed an emergency quarantine or whatever other steps were required to save all lives possible. But progressivism always elevate symbolism over results.

    We’re just lucky the scientists came through in relatively short order. Or who knows what the death toll would have been.

    • Replies: @Cloudbuster
    If the disease, by contrast, had struck only, say, little girls, we would have imposed an emergency quarantine or whatever other steps were required to save all lives possible.

    Well, unless it only struck little girls who were molested by Hollywood pedophiles, in which case the connection would remain a total mystery.
    , @Jim bob Lassiter
    "We’re just lucky the scientists came through in relatively short order. Or who knows what the death toll would have been."

    As Stalin would say, that depends on just who is lucky and who is luckless.


    And speaking of scientists, I wonder just what the diversity breakdown was in the ranks of the scientists who pursued AIDs research.
  95. @Jim Christian

    But anyone who thinks venues that were more tolerated thanks to liberation, like the bathhouses, didn’t serve as accelerants is just fooling themselves.
     
    I often wondered after the AIDS thing got rolling how many of the hundreds of thousands of sailors aboard the carriers and other ships that visited African continent cities and countries from Alexandria to Tunis and Senegal in the 70s and 80s for tattoos and sex contributed to the problem once back home. That factor ouldn't have helped but introduce/spread the disease, especially to the wives and girlfriends..

    How many rock stars died of AIDS? Rocks stars sleep with lots of girls.

    Freddie Mercury.

    But …

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Top 1970s British TV comedian and DJ, Kenny Everett, also died of Aids.

    It is believed that they - at the very least - had a 'boyfriend' in common, a Spanish waiter.
    , @Peter Akuleyev
    But somehow most gay/bi rock stars of the 1970s did not/have not die(d) of AIDS - Elton John, Rob Halford, Bowie, George Michael, etc. George Michael's boyfriend died of AIDS, but somehow George never got infected? There may still be a lot about HIV that is not being explained correctly.
    , @anonymous
    Eazy-E got AIDS through heterosexual activity.
    , @Autochthon
    That none of the members of Kiss,Van Halen, Def Leppard, and Guns 'n' Roses – given their legendary debauchery on a global level and their stratospheric popularity during the 1970s and 1980s – contracted HIV is telling indeed.
  96. If women had the same promiscuity than men, would there be such differences between straight men and gay men sex life (7 versus 160 average number of partners).

    My guess is that there wouldn’t be any difference. Because you only need to walk next to a beautiful girl in the street to see what kind of horny dogs men are all the time, from wall steeet executives to shopkeepers and construction workers.

  97. For those interested:

    I spent some time putting together information that I culled from several sources into a thread on the early days of HIV in San Francisco. You can find it here – https://salo-forum.com/index.php?threads/patient-zero-and-the-early-days-of-hiv-aids.3167/

    The best source, and it’s available for free online, is the Standford University Oral History. You get first person interviews with all the key players who were around in those days. Selma Dritz (played by Lili Tomlin in “And the Band Played On”) is a particular highlight as she was very, very upfront about what was going on in those days. She constantly battled with the owners of the baths for example even prior to HIV as the various STDs were building and building among San Fran’s gay population.

    One of the great crimes of history is that all of her notes containing personal information were thrown in actual fire when she retired to ‘protect individuals’. In fact it was an act of historical vandalism with the intent of keeping as much of the behaviours of gays at that time as secret as possible.

    Michael Callen was a singer and was the creator of the first safe-sex for gays pamphlet in the wake of HIV alongside a gay prostitute named Berkowitz (who I think is still somehow alive). Here’s an excerpt from Callen (who died in the early 90s) about his own sexual health history:

    “In the Spring of ’81, when the CDC made its first report, I was sick: fevers, night sweats, thrush, weight loss, diarrhea and malaise. The standard tests showed nothing conclusive.

    As it happened, my doctor was Joe Sonnabend–a microbiologist of international repute who had left the research world to go into private practice. He initiated some of the earliest AIDS research using samples provided by me and other patients from his practice. As a result, Dr. Sonnabend was able to tell me as early as December 1981 that I had almost no T-helper cells left and that other blood parameters indicated that I was dangerously immunosuppressed. My results, he warned, were identical to those of his patients who had–or who were soon to develop–PCP and KS.

    The CDC case control study of the first 50 gay men with AIDS found a medium number of lifetime sexual partners of 1,150 and a history of many sexually transmitted diseases. I fit that profile. By the age of 27, I had had an estimated 3,000 sex partners in bathhouses and backrooms. Not coincidentally, I had also been diagnosed with the following diseases: innumerable bouts of gonorrhea of the throat, penis and anus; syphilis; non-specific urethritis; chalymidia; candida albicans; endless episodes of entamoeba histolytica, giardia lamblia; salmonella; shigella; hepatitis A, hepatitis B, and hepatitis non-A, non-B; venereal warts; herpes simplex Types I and II; Epstein-Barr reactivations; repeated cytomegalovirus infections; disseminated varicella zoster (shingles); and finally, cryptosporidiosis and AIDS.

    The question for me upon diagnosis was not so much “Why me” as wonder at how I had I remained standing on two feet so long.

    Although I can understand why most gay activists shudder at the implications, I suspected then–as I continue to suspect–that, bluntly put, a small subset of promiscuous gay men (including myself) unwittingly managed to recreate disease settings equivalent to those of poor third world nations and junkies.

    So, in December of 1981, I had reason to be very frightened. Dr. Sonnabend was blunt: he told me that if I didn’t stop practicing what was to become known as “unsafe sex”–if I continued to barrage my immune system with sexually transmitted infections–I might well die.

    If there had been such a term, I would in early 1982 have been diagnosed with ARC–AIDS related complex. At the time, the very namelessness of the condition compounded the terror.

    I continued to lose weight–to sleep 12 or 14 hours–to vomit up my food. And I had bloody diarrhea 8 to 10 times a day. In June of 1982, I collapsed in my home from dehydration and was taken to the emergency room with a 104 degree fever by Dr. Sonnabend’s physician’s assistant.

    During that hospitalization–my first in a series–they finally diagnosed my problem as cryptosporidiosis–a parasite which, in the cryptic words of the hospital doctor, had been “previously found only in livestock.”

    Cryptosporidiosis–which we PWAs refer to as “crypto”–is one of the diseases which qualifies one for an official diagnosis of AIDS. When a very handsome intern asked me a lot of questions about my sexual history, indicating that he needed the information to fill out an “AIDS report form,” I had the first frightening sense of being a statistic. I knew that the odds of survival were very small.

    I had a mixed reaction to my diagnosis: on the one hand, I was relieved to finally know what had been making me so sick for so long; on the other hand, being told I had AIDS and that my opportunistic infection was untreatable was devastating.”

    The rest you can read here – http://michaelcallen.com/mikes-writing/life-in-the-reagan-aidies/

    He had reached a point where every sexual contact he was making would involve him getting a new STD. By 1979 gay men in NYC, San Francisco, and LA (particularly West Hollywood and Silver Lake) were walking biohazards.

    The joke was “you go to an STD clinic to get a shot and a date”.

    The con job/propaganda that Gay Activists pulled on the USA in the 1980s was impressive. As it fed into others spheres of life it has turned into a Frankenstein, best exemplified by having a whole month dedicated to celebrations of gay lifestyle and the coercion used by the USA against foreign countries to also allow this celebration to be as public as possible in their own countries.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman

    I had also been diagnosed with the following diseases: innumerable bouts of gonorrhea of the throat, penis and anus; syphilis; non-specific urethritis; chalymidia; candida albicans; endless episodes of entamoeba histolytica, giardia lamblia; salmonella; shigella; hepatitis A, hepatitis B, and hepatitis non-A, non-B; venereal warts; herpes simplex Types I and II; Epstein-Barr reactivations; repeated cytomegalovirus infections; disseminated varicella zoster (shingles); and finally, cryptosporidiosis and AIDS.
     
    Holy shit!

    I should be glad that just "my elbow hurts when I do this".*

    BTW, for readers, that was from Mr. Salo's excerpt, not his own words!

    .

    * I know, I know, I already made out a check for the $135 copay to have the Doc tell me "Don't do that."
    , @Rusty
    It should be noted that Callen was effectively blacklisted by the gay community for having the gall to point out risky behaviors.
    Callen visited NY bathhouses in mid 80's when AIDS was well known, and found that the risky behaviors were still taking place and that warning posters that he had advocated were not only ignored but actively suppressed by the leadership in the gay community. The way he describes it, sodomy was liberation, sodomy was revolution - any attempt to restrict the revolution immediately made you an outcast.
    , @Daniel H
    By the age of 27, I had had an estimated 3,000 sex partners in bathhouses and backrooms. Not coincidentally, I had also been diagnosed with the following diseases: innumerable bouts of gonorrhea of the throat, penis and anus; syphilis; non-specific urethritis; chalymidia; candida albicans; endless episodes of entamoeba histolytica, giardia lamblia; salmonella; shigella; hepatitis A, hepatitis B, and hepatitis non-A, non-B; venereal warts; herpes simplex Types I and II; Epstein-Barr reactivations; repeated cytomegalovirus infections; disseminated varicella zoster (shingles); and finally, cryptosporidiosis and AIDS.

    But love is love.
  98. @Old fogey
    The medical establishment as a whole never treated AIDS as it did other venereal diseases. Physicians did not ask AIDS patients with whom they had sex, and therefore did not follow up with them.

    “Physicians did not ask AIDS patients with whom they had sex, and therefore did not follow up with them.”

    The CDC definitely did and it was thanks to the cooperation of French Canadian Flight Attendant Gaetan Dugas that they were able to compile their first cluster study. Unfortunately for Dugas an improper reading of this cluster study made him the infamous “Patient Zero”. This was due to the fact that he not only had his black book with him at all times but because he was able to name so many partners and wasn’t shy about doing so. His mobility as a flight attendant allowed the CDC researchers to link NYC, SF, and LA.

    But as I mentioned in another post many of these records were destroyed, particularly those in San Francisco, in order to ‘protect privacy’ i.e. spare gays of embarrassment and hand over damaging evidence of their behaviours to those not fond of their activities and the lifestyles that they were promoting.

  99. Careful Steve, you can easily find yourself memory holed for noticing anything negative about the gay community. Their power is bafflingly that great at this time.

    • Replies: @Peter Akuleyev
    Their power is bafflingly that great at this time.

    No mystery. Our "conservative" President is a great friend of the homosexual community, and has been dating back to his relationship with Roy Cohn. He's a New Yorker with extravagant taste and has always enjoyed having gays as part of his social scene.

    In the words of Fox News:

    "Without a doubt, Trump is the most pro-gay Republican president in American history. He is also the first president from either political party to enter the White House while supporting same-sex marriage, and he has made a bold commitment to eradicate HIV domestically by 2030. Taking all of this into account, Trump is situated to become the most pro-gay president ever."
    , @Reg Cæsar

    Careful Steve, you can easily find yourself memory holed
     
    Still, that's better than being glory-holed.
  100. @CCZ
    There is always the search the promotes the inverse:

    "How the advent of AIDS advanced gay rights."

    When AIDS struck, priorities changed, and quickly, from hedonism to survival. And, ironically, the advent of AIDS probably advanced gay rights more than anything else in history.

    "HIV-AIDS changed public perceptions a lot: It showed a more humane side of the community," says Ed Jackson, director of program development at Canadian AIDS Treatment Information Exchange, and a longtime activist. "It also galvanized gay men into being more active and more visible. It brought people out of the closet."

    Mr. Jackson said the large number of HIV-positive men, and the often-overlooked contributions of many lesbian women who cared for the sick, forced members of the gay community to interact with the system, instead of living on the margins. In fact, many of the early battles that mobilized the community were about seemingly mundane issues such as the right to visit partners in hospital (people were refused access because they were not considered immediate family, even if they were in long-term relationships), taking time off to be with loved ones who were sick and dying and claiming insurance benefits.

    Gay rights came incrementally as these battles were waged before administrative tribunals and the courts and, in the process, gay and lesbian couples became more mainstream.

    "We went from being marginalized as sick people to being normalized," Mr. Jackson says. "Along the way, a lot of desires became mainstreamed; we wanted to be like everybody else, which is why you saw a push for things like gay marriage.

    https://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/health-and-fitness/health/how-the-advent-of-aids-advanced-gay-rights/article20083869/

    The most damning part is perhaps after the medicine for holding back HIV had been developed at huge public expense: the ‘gays’ (oh yes, so joyous!) resumed and expanded their habits, they lobbied government into paying for their pills but also into giving them disability for contracting this eminently non-contractable disease, and, of course, in San Francisco giving someone HIV is no longer a crime.

    “Pride”, huh.

    • Replies: @prime noticer
    "The most damning part is perhaps after the medicine for holding back HIV had been developed at huge public expense: the ‘gays’ (oh yes, so joyous!) resumed and expanded their habits, they lobbied government into paying for their pills but also into giving them disability for contracting this eminently non-contractable disease, and, of course, in San Francisco giving someone HIV is no longer a crime."

    this is the biggest problem. the homos never took responsibility and the left platformed them. blamed everybody else but the homos themselves. demanded every else pay so the homos could continue to just have as much casual random sex as they wanted. them again blamed everybody else when homos get antibiotic resistant (whatever). the people who NEVER have to change ANYTHING they're doing: homos. who has to change? everybody else.

    "The homosexual community is particularly vulnerable to..." is like saying drug dealers are particularly vulnerable to gun violence, so let's spend all of YOUR time and money getting out there to protect those precious drug dealers so they don't get shot when they keep making drug deals every day.

    but in the broader picture, this is all the same stuff as what the cultural marxists are doing to the most productive members of society. hetero european men. taking all their productive output and assigning it like a resource to negative output groups. we're supposed to spend all our time and energy making sure the homos don't get HIV, making sure the africans don't shoot each other, making sure mestizos don't have to live in leftist socialist hellholes, making sure muslims can be high tech islamicists with running water and electricity and cell phones while they kill the infidels, making sure the chinese have awesome universities to take over that they couldn't build themselves, and so on.
  101. @Paleo Retiree
    I’m an old guy who lived in NYC during the late ‘70s and ‘80s and who hung out in the media and arts worlds — in other words, I lived in AIDS central. I also did a fair amount of reporting about the AIDS crisis for the magazine I worked for. I talked to doctors, researchers, and political people. I had many, many gay friends, some of whom were older (and from whom I learned a lot about what gay life in NYC was like before Gay Lib), and some of whom died of AIDS.

    A few of the things I learned:

    Anal sex wasn’t that common back in the pre Gay Lib days. Pre Gay Lib, gay guys mostly blew each other or jerked each other off. Some of the older gays I knew found gay anal sex distasteful and had never, ever had it.

    Unprotected buttfucking and wildly promiscuous sex were symbolically very important to the GayLib movement. It was part of the whole go-wild, liberation, revolutionary, bad-is-good and good-is-bad ethos of the time. Buttfucking and promiscuity were seen as, no fooling, Civil Rights matters (first struggles, then triumphs) by political gays. Put that drive together with the massive amount of drugs that were around and the result was a lot of incredibly crazy behavior.

    Even before HIV arrived, the ultra-partying gay crowd in the late ‘70s was already riddled with a lot of illness, which is part of what made them vulnerable to the HIV virus (which, contrary to what many of us have been told, is generally pretty hard to pass along).

    When scary cancers and unusual infections started cropping up, it took docs and scientists a little while to puzzle things out but pretty soon it was perfectly well understood that unprotected, promiscuous gay buttfucking was the main driver behind the spread of HIV/AIDS.

    The political gays were terrified of two things: 1) that straight mainstream America would turn on them; and 2) that the illness would be dealt with as a typical epidemic. They wanted the p-r benefits of screaming “epidemic,” yes — but they really, really didn’t want infected gays placed in quarantine, which of course would have ended the epidemic within a couple of years. They wanted the whole concept of quarantine to be undiscussable. And they also didn’t want to give up what they saw as their just-recently acquired civil right to promiscuous buttfucking. They weren’t gonna budge on that. So they launched the Safe Sex crusade.

    The strategy of the Safe Sex campaign was: In order to get funding and action and deflect criticism, scare the straights, even though (as Michael Fumento showed) straight America was never going to be much impacted by HIV/AIDS (not promiscuous enough); and in order to maintain the “right” to promiscuity and buttfucking while doing something to moderate the spread of HIV, urge gays to use condoms. The idea that gay guys who were doing a lot of promiscuous buttfucking were being major public health menaces was never to be permitted. Despite the fact that sex is a voluntary act, gays were to be seen as victims only. Life was to go on as it always had, only with condoms, a lot of screaming at the government, and (with luck) eventually some medical advances.

    The political gays who drove the Safe Sex response to the HIV/AIDS crisis were, in other words, responsible for tens if not hundreds of thousands of unnecessary deaths — the crazy but brilliant gay playwright Larry Kramer often made this point — as well as for scaring millions of straight people unnecessarily silly about *their* sex lives.

    Much more, and many graphic details, are in this posting from my old blog:

    http://www.2blowhards.com/archives/2007/02/aids_and_immune.html

    First of all, great comment. Secondly, I don’t think I’ve actually heard the term “buttfucking” since high school, and I’m laughing my ass off at 4:30 in the morning reading this. The thought of a retiree age individual using the term makes it even funnier. Thanks for the laugh.

    • Replies: @Jim Christian
    I'm a retiree, I find it's exceedingly easy to use the Buttfuck for that particular proclivity. Also acceptable, butt-munch, turd burglar, pole-smoker. Squat-tag in the cucumber patch used to mean the bathhouses, but then I heard an old country boy one day use it to describe the fat, sweaty country girls down on the farm. Homos appropriated lots of words, starting with Gay. Turns out a country girl couldn't even have Squat-Tag.
    , @MBlanc46
    Pete Buttigieg is running for Pres and the word “buttfucking” hasn’t come to mind?
  102. @Bruno
    Is there an affinity between AIDS and gays and Africans other than promiscuity (higher average number of partner of the group and perhaps more anal intercourses ) ?

    Because straight people having more sex doesn’t result individually in high chances of getting aid. So it must be something related to the level of promiscuity of the group.

    I read that in big cities where dating apps are used, number of STD among straight people has soared to gay levels. So my guess it’s that the group promiscuity average, more than medical idiosyncrasies of blacks and gays, causes std.

    IIRC Africans do catch it more easily while Europeans have some kind of cross-resistance dating from the Black Death.
    Pooter poking produces more microtraumata (read: bleeding) and eases transmission.

    And then there´s the famous Kenyan public health campaign
    “Warning! AIDS is contracted through normal heterosexual intercourse!”
    (it seems heteros had been feeling safe)
    As a result the local whores only took it in the rear, and the rates exploded.

    • Replies: @GermanReader2
    In several African counties high-ranking government officials (such as the Minister of Health) spread the tale, that one could cure AIDS by sleeping with a virgin. This led to a stark increase in rapes of young girls in some parts of the continent.
    , @Bruno
    I doubt 70 IQ people could made that kind of (amusing) wrong inference. An a contrario reasoning it’s too complicated
  103. @Nick Diaz
    Steve Sailer:

    "Gay Liberation Caused AIDS"

    First of all, you couldn't care less about the lives of gay men. That is just an excuse from you to jusitify keeping gay men forcefully in the closet so as to not get in the way of your ideal Society of married straight people with kids. *That* is what you really care about.

    Secondly, even if your intention of saving the lives of gay men were genuine(it is not), this is your solution? To baby sit adults and tell them what they can and cannot do with their own lives? Brilliant solution, Sailer. Let's extend your argument. People getting drunk and crashing cars? Either Prohibition or outlawing cars. People dying of drug overdoses? War on drugs. Oh wait, you conservatives already got that for 40 years, and the results are stellar. Not only do people continue to die of drug overdoses, but now we have massive corruption of government agencies, a huge and costly government bureaucracy, prisons full of people at tax payer expensve, and more drugs than ever keep pouring in. People dying of obesity? Let's outlaw cheetos. Or better yet, let's outlaw food altogether since then the problem will be solved for sure. Young men wasting too much of their time and lives masturbating to porn? Outlaw porn, and have them rape women instead. Prostitution spreading infections? Oh way, just outlaw it and have millions of men die as virgins. I mean, only a few thousand will blow up their schools and go on killing sprees, and that's a small price to pay to prevent the spread of clamidea even though just using condoms is far more effective, but conservatives know better with their idiotic moral prejudices!

    'Gay liberation caused AIDS." What a lying, moronic, stupid statement.

    Absolutely outlaw, if scientifically sound. Your hysterics about banning porn and banning cheetos have nothing to do with anything.

    The shutting down of the bathhouses and orgy sites was a no-brainer. One of the smart decisions they made early on in the epidemic was the blanket ban on gays donating blood. The decision was statistically, scientifically, and ethically sound. AIDS-infected gays donating and selling blood and subsequently infecting thousands of innocent people including the horrific holocaust of hemophiliacs is one of the unsung heartwrenching tragedies that stemmed from gay liberation.

    Also please read through all the comments in the thread, many made by first hand chroniclers and journalists of the AIDS epidemic, that show that, indeed, gay liberation ignited the deadliest and most dramatic plague of our lifetime.

    First of all, you couldn’t care less about the lives of gay men. That is just an excuse from you to jusitify keeping gay men forcefully in the closet so as to not get in the way of your ideal Society of married straight people with kids.

    Whether gay or straight, the dangerous ethos of wanton promsicuity should absolutely be a taboo. As a parent who doesn’t want his kids exposed to this warped ethos, I can say it with absolute conviction and I reject any excuse you yourself come up with that justifies your own “ideal society”. You obviously couldn’t care less about the lives of traditional families with kids.

    Gays have an important and inalienable role in society. As LePen accurately observed, gays are like salt in soup — too little salt and the soup is bland and unpalatable, too much salt and the soup is also ruined.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman

    As LePen accurately observed, gays are like salt in soup — too little salt and the soup is bland and unpalatable, too much salt and the soup is also ruined.
     
    If you're just talking about society in general, I suppose that's a reasonable thing to say. As for the sexual aspect, let me tell you, Frenchie, I'd rather have high blood pressure than a ____ up my ass.
  104. @Nick Diaz
    Steve Sailer:

    "Gay Liberation Caused AIDS"

    First of all, you couldn't care less about the lives of gay men. That is just an excuse from you to jusitify keeping gay men forcefully in the closet so as to not get in the way of your ideal Society of married straight people with kids. *That* is what you really care about.

    Secondly, even if your intention of saving the lives of gay men were genuine(it is not), this is your solution? To baby sit adults and tell them what they can and cannot do with their own lives? Brilliant solution, Sailer. Let's extend your argument. People getting drunk and crashing cars? Either Prohibition or outlawing cars. People dying of drug overdoses? War on drugs. Oh wait, you conservatives already got that for 40 years, and the results are stellar. Not only do people continue to die of drug overdoses, but now we have massive corruption of government agencies, a huge and costly government bureaucracy, prisons full of people at tax payer expensve, and more drugs than ever keep pouring in. People dying of obesity? Let's outlaw cheetos. Or better yet, let's outlaw food altogether since then the problem will be solved for sure. Young men wasting too much of their time and lives masturbating to porn? Outlaw porn, and have them rape women instead. Prostitution spreading infections? Oh way, just outlaw it and have millions of men die as virgins. I mean, only a few thousand will blow up their schools and go on killing sprees, and that's a small price to pay to prevent the spread of clamidea even though just using condoms is far more effective, but conservatives know better with their idiotic moral prejudices!

    'Gay liberation caused AIDS." What a lying, moronic, stupid statement.

    ‘Gay liberation caused AIDS.” What a lying, moronic, stupid statement.

    If only you showed us why, instead of showing us the insides of Sailer’s noggin…

    Lovers of fallacies should delight in discussions like these.

    Mr. Sailer kicks it off with an ”after this, therefore because of this”. It’s not unprotected sex with someone HIV-positive that caused (and causes) AIDS, or receiving HIV-positive blood in a transfusion, or the sharing of needles contaminated with said blood, happening many times so to cause an epidemic: no, it’s gay liberation.

    You, Mr. Diaz, then ad hominem Sailer thoroughly: he doesn’t care about gays, he’d rather have them all in the closet, or dead, and apparently argues for outlawing gay sex again. He wants to babysit the gays — or that’s what he wants us to think, because as you said, he’s dishonest and prejudiced: he actually wants them repressed by the married straights with kids. Or dead. That gays are disproportionately HIV-positive… how’s that even relevant, you might add.

    It could go on. A third commenter could admit that yes, gays are much more often HIV-positive than straights are, but that’s the straights’ fault. They are rumored to (rarely) ”bugchase”, or at least fantasize about doing so, but the straights are to blame for that too. A fourth commenter could claim that, actually, the majority of gays ”bugchase”, not a minority: he knows this from his gay friends.

    And so on… the fallacy connoisseur would not come out disappointed.

  105. @prime noticer
    "Nowadays the vast majority of people infected with HIV are not gay men."

    yes they are.

    here comes some homo trying to pretend that african men who have sex with other men aren't gay.

    GTFO. why do we have to deal with these people even here?

    african men who have sex with other men and sex with women too is where 50% of the new infections come from, pretty much. i've actually studied this.

    here comes some homo trying to pretend that african men who have sex with other men aren’t gay.

    I actually think there is something of a point there: there is a segment of men who, how shall we put it, ‘belong to the MSM’ but are not part of the ‘gay culture’ and indeed refuse to identify as ‘gay’. Obvious example is POCs in prison, I guess, but presumably it’s a common attitude among those.

    (Another question is whether those africans really have AIDS, which I’m skeptical about, or just generic ill health.)

    • Replies: @GermanReader2
    I once read an article in a German magazine about men (mostly from countries such as Romania etc.), who worked as prostitutes in Germany. They admitted that the majority of their customers were men, but insisted, that they were not gay (most of them had girlfriends back in their home-countries)
  106. @TheMediumIsTheMassage
    Steve, please don't jump the shark. You know better than this. AIDS was caused by a great multitude of factors, not gays being able to somewhat live their lives without having to hide in fear of being thrown in jail/fired/etc in the 70s. We were still having sex in the decades prior, FYI. I'd encourage you to read 'And the Band Played On' by Randy Shilts, one of the definitive texts on the early days of the AIDS epidemic. The faults of many gay community leaders, bathhouse owners, etc. are laid bare in that book, but it's far more than just them. The government and medical institutions failed to respond; the media failed to report on the topic, pressure the government for funds, and help deliver public health warnings; blood banks refused to heed warnings from scientists.

    If it had been treated the way Legionnaire's Disease was a few years prior, the number of victims would have been enormously reduced, but it was essentially allowed to spread unchecked until the mid to late 80s. Gay community activists who put sexual liberation first and protested against bathhouse closure and widespread, direct public health campaigns are certainly to blame as well, but they were also operating from a place of (understandable) deep mistrust towards the government.

    At any rate, AIDS would have spread even if there hadn't been any gay liberation because of African immigrants and intravenous drug users, in whom the spread of the disease was entirely separate from the gay community rooted in New York and San Francisco in the early 80s. The first cases in many European countries, for example, were in African immigrants. The disease was coming to America and the rest of the world no matter what. The long latent period of the virus (over 5 years on average) and the fact that the world was already quite globalized with constant air travel ensured that.

    Today, AIDS affects several orders of magnitude more people in Africa, which has nothing to do with gay liberation.

    If it had been treated the way Legionnaire’s Disease was a few years prior,

    Point counterpoint:

    In January 1977, the Legionella bacterium was finally identified and isolated … This finding prompted new regulations worldwide for climate control systems.

    Legionella Guidelines, Standards, and Regulations

    Vs.

    Blood donation rules relaxed for gay men and sex workers

    For gay men donating blood, the discrimination isn’t over – yet

    ‘Unfair and discriminatory’ ban on gay men donating blood needs to change

    The Bigotry of Gay-Blood-Donation Bans

  107. @Ghost of Bull Moose
    It is true that AIDS has nothing to do with homosexuality per se. But AIDS is associated with promiscuity. I've read a good bit of the Randy Shilts book, and some of the scenes described are almost beyond belief in their depravity. Now, many gay men pair off and live long lives and bully for them. But when older gay men reflect on how 8 of the 10 guys in this photo from Fire Island in 1980 are dead from AIDS, there's a reason for it.

    While there are promiscuous heterosexuals, it just isn't part of hetero culture the way it is for gay men. Anonymous sex with multiple partners just isn't as common. Heteros do not have glory holes, they do not host circuit parties, they do not cruise, they do not wander into the ramble in Central Park or the dunes of Fire Island looking for literally anyone to have sex with. There are no straight bug chasers. There are no straight bath houses or secret library bathrooms or whatever where straight people hook up. What Steve is saying is that this culture was de-stigmatized and even celebrated and this led directly to a much higher rate of AIDS among gay men. Not to mention the fact that gay men have a much higher rate of virtually every other STD.

    Studies of AIDS in Africa had to be redone because researchers realized that they couldn't just focus on male promiscuity; the women were also extremely promiscuous ( also, there are more 'men who have sex with men' who do not identify as gay in Africa). AIDS transmission is related to culture or lifestyle. Drug addicts have a culture, too, that lends itself to AIDS transmission.

    It's not coincidence that closing down the wrecks in the Hudson River near the Village and the bathhouses and a massive PR campaign encouraging gay men to be more responsible in their behavior led to a decrease in the rate of transmission. From the beginning of the PR campaign, another message was that this was not just a gay man's disease and that anyone could get it, Beckys and Chads in the suburbs would be infected in the 1,000s any day now. But that never happened, did it?

    Michael Blowhard (who can of course be found here, though under another name) had a striking article about this, or rather what it looked like when AIDS got started: http://www.2blowhards.com/archives/2007/02/aids_and_immune.html

    From another source, here is a remembrance of Patient Zero (250 new ‘partners’ per year) by a medical doctor.

    I knew that Gaetan Dugas was still in town. I couldn’t get to him, but I put word out, “If you see Gaetan Dugas, let him know I want to see him.” He came up. I told him, “Look, we’ve got proof now.” I didn’t tell him how scientifically accurate the information was. It wasn’t inaccurate, but it wasn’t actually scientifically proven. I said, “We’ve got proof that you’ve been infecting these other people. You’ve got AIDS, you know. We know it’s transmissible now, because you’re transmitting it.” He was the active partner in all this gay business, anal-genital sex. “You’ve just got to cut it out.”

    “Don’t be silly, I won’t cut it out. It’s my life. I’ll do what I want.” I said, “Yes, but you’re infecting other people.” “I got it. Let them get it.” I said, “You’ve got to cut it out!” “Screw you.” He walked out. I never saw him again. It was a pity, because he was apparently an intelligent man, except on this one point. And he was very, very sexually active. He was a presumptive proof that AIDS was something transmissible from an infected person directly to the uninfected person.

    • Replies: @lavoisier
    Yes, I remember this kind of stupidity and indifference to others as well.

    The push to keep the bathhouses open was portrayed as a courageous act of civil rights than what it really was--selfishness and stupidity.

    In the movie The Band Played On they actually had the nerve to blame Reagan for wanting to close down the bathhouses, implying at some level that he was responsible for the Gay Plague.

    A lot of innocent people died from this scourge because of the stupidity of the progressive left.
  108. @Coag
    Legionnaires disease? Are you kidding me? That was spread through the air conditioning. How can that even be a comparison?

    AIDS was largely spread through sexual promiscuity and IV drug use. I’m pretty sure the Reaganites were on message against both those things throughout the 80s.

    Also a few sorry souls got it through blood transfusion. I hear the gays are nowadays campaigning for poisoning the blood supply again, but I also seem to recall reading that some ‘activists’ back then donated poz blood to ‘increase public awareness’ … I don’t have a source for that though.

    Those infected through blood transfusion were of course a primary showcases to the normies, shame on the normie for thinking AIDS was related only to deviant subcultures.

    • Replies: @Pericles
    Hahaha, I seem to serve up the very coldest takes today. Not a fresh contribution yet. In my defense, I wrote them all while you were stuck in mod.
    , @gabriel alberton
    A good point gay activists might make is question why men who had sex with other men cannot donate blood in the United States. As the Wikipedia article says...

    In the United States in 2005, MSM, African Americans, and persons engaging in high-risk heterosexual behavior accounted for respectively 49%, 49%, and 32% of new HIV diagnoses.[8] In 2009 in the United States, African Americans accounted for 47.9% of new HIV diagnoses reported that year, but represented approximately only 12% of the population.[9]
     
    Yet only men who had sex with other men are restricted from donating blood: blacks aren't. What if blacks are actually underrepresented among men who had sex with other men? What if the percentage of blacks in the American population is not much higher than that of men who ever had sex with another man (who are not necessarily gay)? I don't know if that's the case, but if it is, why only restrict men who had sex with other men from donating blood? Why not restrict blacks as well? Or even men who had sex with high-risk women? Why not lift those blanket restrictions altogether?
    , @JSM
    Remember sweet little Kimberly Bergalis? White straight girl, virgin, caught AIDS. The gays tried to
    say, see, AIDS doesn't discriminate. Turns out, her gay dentist with AIDS, in order to make Straight White America sympathetic to gay AIDS, infected her with his blood during a dental procedure. https://www.upi.com/Archives/1992/06/11/Friend-says-Acer-may-have-spread-AIDS-intentionally/8887708235200/
  109. Anonymous[363] • Disclaimer says:
    @Steve Sailer
    How many rock stars died of AIDS? Rocks stars sleep with lots of girls.

    Freddie Mercury.

    But ...

    Top 1970s British TV comedian and DJ, Kenny Everett, also died of Aids.

    It is believed that they – at the very least – had a ‘boyfriend’ in common, a Spanish waiter.

  110. If Reagen had closed the bathhouses and quarantined the infectious there would be tens of thousands of homosexual men still alive who died of AIDS.

    And they would all loathe the memory of Ronald Reagen for ruining their lifestyles.

    You just can’t win with some people.

  111. This argument has a lot to do with virulence, or how destructive the pathogen is to the host.

    When the route of transmission of the AIDS virus was facilitated by the gay liberation movement, I remember there was a scientific paper claiming that the virulence of the virus was able to increase significantly.

    Hence, it became a killer.

    Might be interesting to review that scientific argument again in light of this article.

  112. @Pericles
    Michael Blowhard (who can of course be found here, though under another name) had a striking article about this, or rather what it looked like when AIDS got started: http://www.2blowhards.com/archives/2007/02/aids_and_immune.html

    From another source, here is a remembrance of Patient Zero (250 new 'partners' per year) by a medical doctor.


    I knew that Gaetan Dugas was still in town. I couldn't get to him, but I put word out, "If you see Gaetan Dugas, let him know I want to see him." He came up. I told him, "Look, we've got proof now." I didn't tell him how scientifically accurate the information was. It wasn't inaccurate, but it wasn't actually scientifically proven. I said, "We've got proof that you've been infecting these other people. You've got AIDS, you know. We know it's transmissible now, because you're transmitting it." He was the active partner in all this gay business, anal-genital sex. "You've just got to cut it out."

    "Don't be silly, I won't cut it out. It's my life. I'll do what I want." I said, "Yes, but you're infecting other people." "I got it. Let them get it." I said, "You've got to cut it out!" "Screw you." He walked out. I never saw him again. It was a pity, because he was apparently an intelligent man, except on this one point. And he was very, very sexually active. He was a presumptive proof that AIDS was something transmissible from an infected person directly to the uninfected person.

     

    Yes, I remember this kind of stupidity and indifference to others as well.

    The push to keep the bathhouses open was portrayed as a courageous act of civil rights than what it really was–selfishness and stupidity.

    In the movie The Band Played On they actually had the nerve to blame Reagan for wanting to close down the bathhouses, implying at some level that he was responsible for the Gay Plague.

    A lot of innocent people died from this scourge because of the stupidity of the progressive left.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    A lot of innocent people died from this scourge because of the stupidity of the progressive left.
     
    Normally I read the "stupidity" of the Left as design. But in this rare instance it may indeed be stupidity, because it's difficult to come up with a possible motive.

    If it was to encourage more spending on health care, they'd have chosen more sympathetic victims.
  113. @Tono Bungay
    Three things: First, while it's clear that men are more inclined to promiscuity than women and thus that male homosexuals are more likely to be promiscuous than male heterosexuals, I don't see why we shouldn't accord at least some part of the reason for the extraordinary excesses of the liberation era to the misery of the closet. Unhappiness in anyone can lead to self-destructive behavior. Second, we shouldn't forget that heterosexuals too were testing the notion (remember "The Harrad Experiment"?) in those years that every bit of sexual inhibition they might feel was a dismal holdover from a repressive age that was expiring. Third, an anecdote: I was living in San Francisco in the late 70s and early 80s, and for about half a year let a visiting colleague stay in our spare bedroom. He was an active participant in the bathhouse orgies, and he liked to try to shock the relatively inexperienced heterosexual that I was with such invitations as "Let me take you to the bathhouse tonight and show you what manly sex is all about," and such reports as "Last night I had my arms up to here [indicating his elbows] in that boy's asshole." He became horribly sick and was hospitalized during that time, but he survived another couple of years before dying of AIDS.

    I don’t see why we shouldn’t accord at least some part of the reason for the extraordinary excesses of the liberation era to the misery of the closet.

    Things seem to be going on outside the closet much as they were inside the closet.

  114. @Pericles
    Also a few sorry souls got it through blood transfusion. I hear the gays are nowadays campaigning for poisoning the blood supply again, but I also seem to recall reading that some 'activists' back then donated poz blood to 'increase public awareness' ... I don't have a source for that though.

    Those infected through blood transfusion were of course a primary showcases to the normies, shame on the normie for thinking AIDS was related only to deviant subcultures.

    Hahaha, I seem to serve up the very coldest takes today. Not a fresh contribution yet. In my defense, I wrote them all while you were stuck in mod.

  115. Not sure if anyone here ever read anonymous photo blogger Zombie, but he/she had a great report on the Folsom Street Fair in San Fransisco that is now 12 years old. Some great insight into the depravity of the homosexual lifestyle:

    http://www.zombietime.com/folsom_sf_2007_part_1/index.php

    Chicago had its Homo Pride Parade yesterday. My lesbian sister in law, who is obviously pro-homo, refuses to go anymore because not only is she weary of the gratuitous “sexual” display it has become, but also because it’s also a magnet for all sorts of other petty street criminality.

    http://www.cwbchicago.com/2019/06/our-annual-pride-advice-enjoy-days.html

    • Replies: @GermanReader2
    An acquaintance of mine works as steward for a German airline. He is straight, but says, that the majority of stewards are gay
    Once he was in Athens with a gay colleague, who used the time in Athens to go to a park, that was famous as a hotspot for gay sex. When my acquaintance asked him, how it had been, he answedered: "It's Sodom and Gomorrha, it's like paradise".
    To me, this sums up the attitued of most gays towards casual sex.
    , @Kylie
    Yes, I read Zombie's reports, mostly captioned photos, as I recall. What I found most shocking was not the acts themselves or even the normalizing of them by the participants (understandable if regrettable, most of us are normal to ourselves) but the enthusiastic approbation granted to this depravity by city officials.
    , @Olorin
    Ach, I mentioned this in a later comment. Sorry for the repeat. I agree with Mike that Zombie's reports on this (and other matters of Bay Area "culture") are must-read content...but wait till you can stomach a 50-pound black pill.
  116. AIDS, like so many other things that are great for sacred Diversity, comes from Africa. AIDS came from monkeys. Chimps hunt and eat monkeys, raw of course. Some ‘rogue’ chimps may rape monkeys, including homosexual rape.

    Humans very rarely eat raw monkeys or chimps, but human-chimp sex is not uncommon in the parts of Africa where chimps are plenty and Da Bros have access to young that may be raised and groomed by them.

    The AIDs epidemic was caused by the Sexual Revolution, which led people to engage in ‘the primitive’ in order to discover the many ways they might enjoy getting their rocks off.

    • Replies: @orionyx
    Human-chimp sex? What have you been smoking? A chimp is hundreds of pounds of very strong muscle, driven by a brain that would consider a sexual approach by a non-chimp an act of aggression. The non-chimp would lose face - quite literally.
  117. It was in the U.S. as early as the ’60s, but could never gain much traction until the late ’70s because the main vectors–I.V. drug use and promiscuous anal sex–were strongly discouraged both by law and by culture and were rare. Not only that but there were very high rates of circumcision which arrested transmission within the heterosexual, non-I.V. using population in those rare instances when it happened to be introduced there.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Rayford

    AIDS is still a rarity among the heterosexual, non-I.V. drug using population but that may change as rates of circumcision drop.

  118. There’s conspiracy theories.that’s AIDS isn’t real.

    • Replies: @The Anti-Gnostic
    The one I hear is that the government is suppressing the cure for AIDS.
  119. @Tono Bungay
    Three things: First, while it's clear that men are more inclined to promiscuity than women and thus that male homosexuals are more likely to be promiscuous than male heterosexuals, I don't see why we shouldn't accord at least some part of the reason for the extraordinary excesses of the liberation era to the misery of the closet. Unhappiness in anyone can lead to self-destructive behavior. Second, we shouldn't forget that heterosexuals too were testing the notion (remember "The Harrad Experiment"?) in those years that every bit of sexual inhibition they might feel was a dismal holdover from a repressive age that was expiring. Third, an anecdote: I was living in San Francisco in the late 70s and early 80s, and for about half a year let a visiting colleague stay in our spare bedroom. He was an active participant in the bathhouse orgies, and he liked to try to shock the relatively inexperienced heterosexual that I was with such invitations as "Let me take you to the bathhouse tonight and show you what manly sex is all about," and such reports as "Last night I had my arms up to here [indicating his elbows] in that boy's asshole." He became horribly sick and was hospitalized during that time, but he survived another couple of years before dying of AIDS.

    The ending of your post shows that the opening is no better than PC-approved cliches that may honestly spring from a desire to see all peoples as relatively equal.

  120. @Gordo
    If Reagen had closed the bathhouses and quarantined the infectious there would be tens of thousands of homosexual men still alive who died of AIDS.

    And they would all loathe the memory of Ronald Reagen for ruining their lifestyles.

    You just can't win with some people.
  121. @Michael S
    It basically does occur only in gay men. I forget the exact number, but I believe it was something like a black, gay man being 60 times more likely to contract HIV than a white heterosexual man. Remove the black, and it's still 20 or 30 times more likely.

    Not percent. Times. Gay men have about 95% of the AIDS, with gay black men being about 75% of that.

    I am hardly convinced that the spread of HIV in Africa isn't also related to homosexual behavior there; it's just much harder to track.

    AIDS in Africa was caused by the practice of reusing hypodermic needles for inoculation and vaccinations.

    • Replies: @Paleo Liberal
    To be precise, reusing needles cannot cause a disease to exist. It can spread a disease.

    One hypothesis is that sloppy practice in the massive smallpox vaccination campaign inadvertently spread AIDS around Africa. That was combined with the massive increase in long haul trucking . Lots of prostitution at truck stops in Africa. A long-haul trucker with AIDS could spread the disease from truck stop to truck stop, while the prostitutes spread AIDS from trucker to trucker within each truck stop.
  122. @Hypnotoad666

    While there are promiscuous heterosexuals, it just isn’t part of hetero culture the way it is for gay men.
     
    The problem with hetero promiscuity is you have to find a willing, f***able female. This involves a lot more time and effort than boring a glory hole in a bathroom stall.

    There doesn't seem to be any challenge at all to homosexuality. That's the problem.

    The problem with hetero promiscuity is you have to find a willing, f***able female. This involves a lot more time and effort than boring a glory hole in a bathroom stall.

    There doesn’t seem to be any challenge at all to homosexuality. That’s the problem.

    Right. A much overlooked fact is that they’re not promiscuous because they’re gay; they’re promiscuous because they’re men.

    • Agree: The Anti-Gnostic
  123. What is the worst part of dying from AIDS?

    One has to leave ones’ friend’s behind…………..

  124. @Steve Sailer
    How many rock stars died of AIDS? Rocks stars sleep with lots of girls.

    Freddie Mercury.

    But ...

    But somehow most gay/bi rock stars of the 1970s did not/have not die(d) of AIDS – Elton John, Rob Halford, Bowie, George Michael, etc. George Michael’s boyfriend died of AIDS, but somehow George never got infected? There may still be a lot about HIV that is not being explained correctly.

    • Replies: @Ganderson
    Is Peter Duesberg still working?
    , @Gordo

    George Michael’s boyfriend died of AIDS, but somehow George never got infected? There may still be a lot about HIV that is not being explained correctly.
     
    A certain percentage, no-one seems sure, maybe 5%, maybe 15% of North West Europeans have the CCR5-delta32 mutation, which confers immunity to HIV. Dunno if that is the case here because, thinking about it, George was a Greek Cypriot.

    Some-one with more knowledge might like to chime in on how this mutation works and where it might have come from.

    Since SSAs have no immunity it's clearly a new-ish disease.
    , @Niccolo Salo
    Who says that George Michael never got infected? He was entering the age where the HIV medications take a severe toll on your body, such as hunchbacks forming or organs shutting down. In the months prior to his death George Michael was ballooning in weight.

    The toxicity of the various HIV cocktails starts to greatly impact the men who have been on them for decades as they enter their early to mid 50s. Their bodies start breaking down.
    , @Sparkon

    There may still be a lot about HIV that is not being explained correctly.
     
    Things that sneak up on you from behind:


    In 1978–1981, the CDC conducted a hepatitis B vaccine experiment on homosexual men living in New York City, San Francisco and Los Angeles. HIV/AIDS was first detected among the participants in the CDC hepatitis B vaccine trial and quickly spread throughout the gay community in those cities. [...]

    Dissidents who have studied the available published data are convinced that this ill-conceived experiment precipitated the devastating AIDS epidemic in America’s homosexual community. The gay men in the experiment were injected with a vaccine that had been made using human hepatitis B infected blood which was injected into chimpanzees known to be infected with the cancer causing simian virus 40 (SV40); the virus that had contaminated the polio vaccine.

    Before these CDC experiments there were no reported cases of HIV or AIDS in America. The AIDS epidemic was officially declared by CDC in 1981, at the conclusion of the experiment. Yet, in the NEJM published report (1980) researchers proclaimed the vaccine “safe and incidence of side effects low,” and claimed a 96% success rate. They failed to mention the emergence of a new disease affecting some of the subjects.
     
    1978–1981: Is HIV-AIDS linked to CDC’s Hepatitis B Vaccine Experiment?

    After AIDS began to spread, there was an effort in the MSM to "democratize" AIDS so that heterosexuals could feel at risk too, and indeed some probably were who engaged in various "risky behaviors" with bisexual men, drug addicts, and their partners.
  125. @PaceLaw
    Careful Steve, you can easily find yourself memory holed for noticing anything negative about the gay community. Their power is bafflingly that great at this time.

    Their power is bafflingly that great at this time.

    No mystery. Our “conservative” President is a great friend of the homosexual community, and has been dating back to his relationship with Roy Cohn. He’s a New Yorker with extravagant taste and has always enjoyed having gays as part of his social scene.

    In the words of Fox News:

    “Without a doubt, Trump is the most pro-gay Republican president in American history. He is also the first president from either political party to enter the White House while supporting same-sex marriage, and he has made a bold commitment to eradicate HIV domestically by 2030. Taking all of this into account, Trump is situated to become the most pro-gay president ever.”

    • Replies: @Bill B.
    Well Trump's pretty gay about building the wall.
    , @Lugash
    One of the early ACTUP leaders was Trump's publicist.
    , @PaceLaw
    Remember that this whole gay marriage stuff kicked off on Obama’s watch. History will forever record him as the most pro-gay president ever.
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.huffpost.com/us/entry/1512794/amp
  126. AIDS was in the United States and specifically in St. Louis by 1966.

    There was a locally famous case of a black teenager in St. Louis by the name of Robert Rayford who died of a then mysterious ailment in 1969 at the age of 16. Once AIDS was discovered and became better understood, researchers went back and found out that AIDS is what did Rayford in. His symptoms started appearing in 1966.

    • Replies: @Gordo

    AIDS was in the United States and specifically in St. Louis by 1966.

    There was a locally famous case of a black teenager in St. Louis by the name of Robert Rayford who died of a then mysterious ailment in 1969 at the age of 16. Once AIDS was discovered and became better understood, researchers went back and found out that AIDS is what did Rayford in. His symptoms started appearing in 1966.

     

    Never confirmed by a PCR test, please link if I am wrong here, Western Blot had many false positives.

    There was a family history of similar wasting illnesses.

    Almost certainly not HIV
    , @El Dato
    What can we conclude from this?

    Possibilities:

    1 Different virus (e.g. bitten by monkey with SIV)
    2 Same virus before mutation
    3 Pretty much HIV in '66 which for some reason didn't break out of its reservoir
    4 No virus but a problem with M. Rayfords immune system
    4 Other?

    There should be more cases than a single black teenager dying at 16.

    Otherwise it's a case w/o any interest because nothing scientific can be be built on "freak events".
  127. @Paleo Retiree
    I’m an old guy who lived in NYC during the late ‘70s and ‘80s and who hung out in the media and arts worlds — in other words, I lived in AIDS central. I also did a fair amount of reporting about the AIDS crisis for the magazine I worked for. I talked to doctors, researchers, and political people. I had many, many gay friends, some of whom were older (and from whom I learned a lot about what gay life in NYC was like before Gay Lib), and some of whom died of AIDS.

    A few of the things I learned:

    Anal sex wasn’t that common back in the pre Gay Lib days. Pre Gay Lib, gay guys mostly blew each other or jerked each other off. Some of the older gays I knew found gay anal sex distasteful and had never, ever had it.

    Unprotected buttfucking and wildly promiscuous sex were symbolically very important to the GayLib movement. It was part of the whole go-wild, liberation, revolutionary, bad-is-good and good-is-bad ethos of the time. Buttfucking and promiscuity were seen as, no fooling, Civil Rights matters (first struggles, then triumphs) by political gays. Put that drive together with the massive amount of drugs that were around and the result was a lot of incredibly crazy behavior.

    Even before HIV arrived, the ultra-partying gay crowd in the late ‘70s was already riddled with a lot of illness, which is part of what made them vulnerable to the HIV virus (which, contrary to what many of us have been told, is generally pretty hard to pass along).

    When scary cancers and unusual infections started cropping up, it took docs and scientists a little while to puzzle things out but pretty soon it was perfectly well understood that unprotected, promiscuous gay buttfucking was the main driver behind the spread of HIV/AIDS.

    The political gays were terrified of two things: 1) that straight mainstream America would turn on them; and 2) that the illness would be dealt with as a typical epidemic. They wanted the p-r benefits of screaming “epidemic,” yes — but they really, really didn’t want infected gays placed in quarantine, which of course would have ended the epidemic within a couple of years. They wanted the whole concept of quarantine to be undiscussable. And they also didn’t want to give up what they saw as their just-recently acquired civil right to promiscuous buttfucking. They weren’t gonna budge on that. So they launched the Safe Sex crusade.

    The strategy of the Safe Sex campaign was: In order to get funding and action and deflect criticism, scare the straights, even though (as Michael Fumento showed) straight America was never going to be much impacted by HIV/AIDS (not promiscuous enough); and in order to maintain the “right” to promiscuity and buttfucking while doing something to moderate the spread of HIV, urge gays to use condoms. The idea that gay guys who were doing a lot of promiscuous buttfucking were being major public health menaces was never to be permitted. Despite the fact that sex is a voluntary act, gays were to be seen as victims only. Life was to go on as it always had, only with condoms, a lot of screaming at the government, and (with luck) eventually some medical advances.

    The political gays who drove the Safe Sex response to the HIV/AIDS crisis were, in other words, responsible for tens if not hundreds of thousands of unnecessary deaths — the crazy but brilliant gay playwright Larry Kramer often made this point — as well as for scaring millions of straight people unnecessarily silly about *their* sex lives.

    Much more, and many graphic details, are in this posting from my old blog:

    http://www.2blowhards.com/archives/2007/02/aids_and_immune.html

    Nice to see one of blowhards turn up here. The blowhard essays are still worth reading, and thank God we still have their archives, or most of them.

    And it’s good to see Fumento’s book mentioned. Fumento is an under-appreciated writer, and his _Myth of heterosexual AIDS_ was worth reading, even if not totally correct or flawless. It even has a nice epigraph. I’ll paraphrase from memory:

    “The most devastating truth is a fact that is kept secret by a well-meaning friend.”

    = – = – = – = – =

    It didn’t take that long for medical professionals to notice that in the USA the heterosexual risks of contracting HIV were extremely low and seemed stable over time. Well before 1990 I saw an essay in a pathology journal or newsletter claiming that if you drove 10 miles to have sex with someone in a low risk group, you were as much at risk of death in traffic as you were from contracting HIV in that single act of love.

    All you had to assume was that you were driving to have sex with a heterosexual who did not have a high risk partner and did not inject drugs. And driving about 10 miles.

    = – = – = – = – =

    The African situation is different. A good book to read is _The origins of AIDS_ by Jacques Pepin, published by Oxford. The author spent years in Central Africa practicing medicine, is currently an academic in Canada. The book is largely an historical exploration. It has a lot of difficult vocabulary but the underlying arguments are not complex. (1) More urbanization, (2) more prostitution in the big cities, (3) re-use of needles (iatrogenic transmission) all helped HIV break out of isolated communities in Central Africa. The commercial blood products industry later played a role as well.

    A underappreciated fact is that it’s apparently more common in many parts of Africa to have “concurrent sexual partners.” Promiscuity does not run wild, but many adults may have two or more partners simultaneously for some years at a time. In much of the industrialized West it’s more common for people to practice serial monogamy. It’s hard to hide an affair, and often one of the partners won’t tolerate it and doesn’t have to.

  128. @Nick Diaz
    Steve Sailer:

    "Gay Liberation Caused AIDS"

    First of all, you couldn't care less about the lives of gay men. That is just an excuse from you to jusitify keeping gay men forcefully in the closet so as to not get in the way of your ideal Society of married straight people with kids. *That* is what you really care about.

    Secondly, even if your intention of saving the lives of gay men were genuine(it is not), this is your solution? To baby sit adults and tell them what they can and cannot do with their own lives? Brilliant solution, Sailer. Let's extend your argument. People getting drunk and crashing cars? Either Prohibition or outlawing cars. People dying of drug overdoses? War on drugs. Oh wait, you conservatives already got that for 40 years, and the results are stellar. Not only do people continue to die of drug overdoses, but now we have massive corruption of government agencies, a huge and costly government bureaucracy, prisons full of people at tax payer expensve, and more drugs than ever keep pouring in. People dying of obesity? Let's outlaw cheetos. Or better yet, let's outlaw food altogether since then the problem will be solved for sure. Young men wasting too much of their time and lives masturbating to porn? Outlaw porn, and have them rape women instead. Prostitution spreading infections? Oh way, just outlaw it and have millions of men die as virgins. I mean, only a few thousand will blow up their schools and go on killing sprees, and that's a small price to pay to prevent the spread of clamidea even though just using condoms is far more effective, but conservatives know better with their idiotic moral prejudices!

    'Gay liberation caused AIDS." What a lying, moronic, stupid statement.

    “your ideal Society of married straight people with kids”

    The available evidence suggests this is objectively the best society.

    It’s probably better for gays too. They don’t age well. Most would be haapier if they had stayed in the closet, married and raised kids.

  129. @prime noticer
    it's also causing untreatable STDs.

    new STDs are appearing as well. infections that were barely known, or never detected before 10 or 20 years ago.

    “it’s also causing untreatable STDs.

    new STDs are appearing as well. infections that were barely known, or never detected before 10 or 20 years ago.”

    Could you provide references?

  130. Anonymous[206] • Disclaimer says:
    @CCZ
    There is always the search the promotes the inverse:

    "How the advent of AIDS advanced gay rights."

    When AIDS struck, priorities changed, and quickly, from hedonism to survival. And, ironically, the advent of AIDS probably advanced gay rights more than anything else in history.

    "HIV-AIDS changed public perceptions a lot: It showed a more humane side of the community," says Ed Jackson, director of program development at Canadian AIDS Treatment Information Exchange, and a longtime activist. "It also galvanized gay men into being more active and more visible. It brought people out of the closet."

    Mr. Jackson said the large number of HIV-positive men, and the often-overlooked contributions of many lesbian women who cared for the sick, forced members of the gay community to interact with the system, instead of living on the margins. In fact, many of the early battles that mobilized the community were about seemingly mundane issues such as the right to visit partners in hospital (people were refused access because they were not considered immediate family, even if they were in long-term relationships), taking time off to be with loved ones who were sick and dying and claiming insurance benefits.

    Gay rights came incrementally as these battles were waged before administrative tribunals and the courts and, in the process, gay and lesbian couples became more mainstream.

    "We went from being marginalized as sick people to being normalized," Mr. Jackson says. "Along the way, a lot of desires became mainstreamed; we wanted to be like everybody else, which is why you saw a push for things like gay marriage.

    https://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/health-and-fitness/health/how-the-advent-of-aids-advanced-gay-rights/article20083869/

    ironically, the advent of AIDS probably advanced gay rights more than anything else in history

    It certainly advanced the cash flow of gay-managed & affiliated nonprofits– the AIDS economy was very good for the NYC rich-people-dressing-up-to-show-their-concern industry. Also funneled a lot of L.A. media wealth to “educators,” politicians, gallery owners, etc.

    “Money doesn’t talk, it swears”

  131. @Colin Wright
    'The reason AIDS is present in heterosexuals in the third world (but rarely spread heterosexually in the first world) is explained by the poor health of third worlders...'

    No, it's a black thing, not a poor thing. AIDS rates in Africa are literally an order of magnitude higher than they are anywhere else, and that includes lots of non-black third-world countries.

    It’s a behavioral thing: anal intercourse, drug use, and hyper-promiscuity. Blacks exhibit less impulse control on average, so blacks have higher rates of HIV and other sexually transmitted infections.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
    'It’s a behavioral thing: anal intercourse, drug use, and hyper-promiscuity. Blacks exhibit less impulse control on average, so blacks have higher rates of HIV and other sexually transmitted infections.'

    Avowedly racist as I am when it comes to blacks, I'm skeptical. Black Africa is still largely governed by traditional mores -- and the region is one of the more decidedly homophobic on the planet.

    ...and most of them can't afford drugs. Nor, I suspect, are they 'hyper-promiscuous.' Try that crap in your average African village, and I suspect you're dead.

    So I can't see it. Why should the AIDS rate be ten-fold what it is in any non-black country?

    Genetics. Sure as blacks have lower IQ's, it's genetics.

  132. There was a reason why the British military theorized that Hitler was gay.

    The extreme nationalist takes what should be a public utility — the government — and turns it into an avatar of grievance.

    There’s also a reason why gay culture was centered in big cities which also are near military bases.

    In the bits of gay literature that I’ve gleamed in my life, one big event that they trace as their founding is WWII. In their telling, it was WWII which brought together all of these men from the country and put them in one place.

    WWII of course also is the beginning of the American empire we’re living in today.

    Doing the business of the state is unnatural, and gays are like Crusaders who won’t go home. They want to wage their crusade forever because they like the feeling of it. They don’t want to go home to the boring country girl and her sensitivities. There’s also a reason why a lot of gay iconography in that era is of authority figures — police especially.

    That gays have power, and it is mainly male gays of course, it is because gays have this Crusader righteousness which other people defer to.

    In a way, the gay movement is taking the energy which would go towards fascist conquest, and turning it inwards, quite literally.

  133. @advancedatheist
    I seem to recall that leftist intellectuals used to worry about how the modern capitalist society causes "alienation" in human relationships, and they speculated that their programs of social engineering would reverse this situation to allow for healthy human interactions again.

    But then look at what their gay client group does: Gay men engage in alienating sexual encounters with strangers, usually in seedy venues, and usually without bothering to learn names and engage in basic social rituals to become acquainted. They objectify the male body, when heterosexual men allegedly engage in patriarchal oppression when we objectify the female body. And the ones with passports and money travel to impoverished diversitarian countries so that they can exploit the local boys and young men for sex.

    You just don't hear a peep from leftist thinkers about how gay men's real behavior shows the dysfunctions of modernity. If anything, they tend to celebrate this degrading spectacle.

    The first of the seven deadly sins:

    Pride is excessive belief in one’s own abilities, that interferes with the individual’s recognition of the grace of God. It has been called the sin from which all others arise.

    Ironic the Gay movement uses Pride as its moniker.

    • Replies: @Dr. X

    The first of the seven deadly sins:

    Pride is excessive belief in one’s own abilities, that interferes with the individual’s recognition of the grace of God. It has been called the sin from which all others arise.

    Ironic the Gay movement uses Pride as its moniker.
     
    Not ironic at all. They're neo-pagans... they revel in debauchery.
  134. @Anon
    Remember that book on patient zero, the flight attendant guy? I was surprised a few years ago to learn that the book and its author have been cancelled. Apparently the gay community considers it the equivalent of Mein Kampf or The Bell Curve. At the time it was highly respected, somewhat in the same category of solid investigative journalism as the recent Theranos book.

    At any rate, there have been several supposed findings in preserved tissue of HIV from patients who died decades prior to the AIDS outbreak in the US. If that's true, then a real case could be made that gay lib was indeed the culprit. In other words, in the less promiscuous society prior to gay lib HIV just puttered along killing the odd victim, but in the Bathhouse-opocene Era it exponentially exploded.

    By the way, I recently discovered the world of discussion boards and blogs of children of gay couples. It's my impression that a lot of them are not happy and are kind of screwed up. Looking for research on the matter I stumbled into the world of researchers who cannot get kids-of-gays research funded. It's taboo, apparently, to even study it, for to do so would be to imply that everything is possibly not copacetic.

    Many years ago I read in New Scientist, a British publication, that the tissues of an English sailor who died in London in 1959 was shown to have been a death by AIDS.

    The sailor in question was thought to have contracted the disease during his trips to Africa.

    This shows how luck of the draw affects life

    Suppose more sailors had contracted AIDS. Suppose they lived long enough to give AIDS to a number of prostitutes in British ports, and suppose the disease spread around London and Liverpool and the like just when promiscuous sex and IV drug use were spreading.

    Instead of a gay flight attendant in the 70s, had luck gone another way AIDS could have come to the US with the British Invasion, spreading through young people with sex and IV drug use.

    All in all, the AIDS epidemic in the US was a mere sideshow to the vastly larger epidemic in Africa. It was inevitable that the disease would reach the US. It was a matter of when and how.

    • Replies: @Gordo

    Many years ago I read in New Scientist, a British publication, that the tissues of an English sailor who died in London in 1959 was shown to have been a death by AIDS.
     
    Later discovered to not be HIV, lab contamination of one sort or another.

    What is now called Idiopathic CD4 positive T-lymphocytopenia.

    There was one true early, early outbreak in the West, in Norway, centred around a sailor called Arne Vidar Røed who visited Africa in the 60's, died 1976.

    Instead of a gay flight attendant in the 70s, had luck gone another way AIDS could have come to the US with the British Invasion, spreading through young people with sex and IV drug use.
     
    Male homosexual practices are a particularly efficient vector.
    , @Jake
    You assume that Brit sailer got it from an African woman. Why? Buggery has a very long and important history in the English navy, merchant marine as well as warships. And back to at least the early 1800s, queer with an ability to get there went to the African continent for endless gay sex.
  135. @Daniel H
    the media failed to report on the topic, pressure the government for funds, and help deliver public health warnings

    I was around 82-86 and it seemed to me then, as now, that the media was constantly advocating for government involvement, demanding that more research be done, etc..

    I also remember the efforts of Mayor Ed Koch in New York City to shut down those horrid dens of iniquity - the gay bathhouses - and getting a tsunami of a tantrum from gays who insisted that these sex joints must stay open and only a self-hating, closeted gay homophobe could recommend otherwise. Gays knew that thousands, upon thousands were being infected in these bathhouses but their access to easy, promiscuous sex trumped all other considerations.

    BTW, the very notion of a gay bathouse, where men engage in sexual activity with multiples of other men - one after the other, after the other, after the other.....- in a public setting, is disgusting, revolting. It is degrading. Behaviour unworthy of a human being.

    BTW, the very notion of a gay bathouse, where men engage in sexual activity with multiples of other men – one after the other, after the other, after the other…..- in a public setting, is disgusting, revolting. It is degrading. Behaviour unworthy of a human being.

    100%. I think gays should be involuntarily committed to mental institutions for life where they are drugged into a catatonic stupor.

    The fact that these sick people practically control the corporate and political structures of our society (along with a certain Middle Eastern Tribe), and their perversion is openly celebrated, is proof positive that our society is collapsing a into a new Dark Age as we speak.

  136. @Peter Akuleyev
    But somehow most gay/bi rock stars of the 1970s did not/have not die(d) of AIDS - Elton John, Rob Halford, Bowie, George Michael, etc. George Michael's boyfriend died of AIDS, but somehow George never got infected? There may still be a lot about HIV that is not being explained correctly.

    Is Peter Duesberg still working?

  137. @Hippopotamusdrome
    There's conspiracy theories.that's AIDS isn't real.

    The one I hear is that the government is suppressing the cure for AIDS.

  138. There’s always the latest statistics from the CDC in Atlanta.

    https://www.cdc.gov/hiv/library/reports/hiv-surveillance.html

  139. @J.Ross
    There's a flawed documentary which will be dismissed because of its production values and its purpose (discussing fringe theories about AIDS). However, it has must-see interviews with gay men who survived the liberated urban gay scene, talking with humble frankness and no boasting about what was happening. Short expurgated version: the availability of penicillin and the felt triumph of gay liberation meant that men were proudly bugchasing. There was a notion that unrestrained hedonism was downright noble cultural warfare against what Keith Haring would later call "control." Heteros had this too but were slowed down by chicks.
    It also has a sequence in which free AIDS test sites are far more likely to diagnose if they think the patient is gay, but they cannot "read" gay tells across cultures (the guy says "I'm straight" and then pointedly breaks the fourth wall; the nurse buzzes along contentedly).

    I read in the past that some homosexuals were “bugchasers” because they thought that being HIV-positive was to be authentically homosexual. They also thought that they would be otherwise healthy (!) with proper medication. I don’t know if this is still true.

    A major reason for the general breakdown of sexual self-restraint over the past century was the successful use of penicillin to treat venereal disease during WWII. For the first time in history, picking up a venereal disease was no big deal – get a shot and it’ll go away. You can imagine what kind of effect that had on some GIs morals.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    Bugchasing in its normal usage is a modern nightmare phenomenon celebrating the gullibility of the medical establishment after AIDS but to be clear I'm talking about pre-AIDS deliberate infection. The immune system is not immortal and it is entirely possible to overwhelm it. In fact, were a person to overwhelm his immune system (by doing exactly what these guys were doing) it would look just like AIDS: otherwise healthy and very young men with no family history of disease dying from a minor ailment.
  140. @MikeatMikedotMike
    First of all, great comment. Secondly, I don't think I've actually heard the term "buttfucking" since high school, and I'm laughing my ass off at 4:30 in the morning reading this. The thought of a retiree age individual using the term makes it even funnier. Thanks for the laugh.

    I’m a retiree, I find it’s exceedingly easy to use the Buttfuck for that particular proclivity. Also acceptable, butt-munch, turd burglar, pole-smoker. Squat-tag in the cucumber patch used to mean the bathhouses, but then I heard an old country boy one day use it to describe the fat, sweaty country girls down on the farm. Homos appropriated lots of words, starting with Gay. Turns out a country girl couldn’t even have Squat-Tag.

  141. And the nasty Irish Catholic Admiral Mike Mullin in his homo norming of the US Military….homo-normed America….now their going after the pre-school kids……

  142. @Anon
    Remember that book on patient zero, the flight attendant guy? I was surprised a few years ago to learn that the book and its author have been cancelled. Apparently the gay community considers it the equivalent of Mein Kampf or The Bell Curve. At the time it was highly respected, somewhat in the same category of solid investigative journalism as the recent Theranos book.

    At any rate, there have been several supposed findings in preserved tissue of HIV from patients who died decades prior to the AIDS outbreak in the US. If that's true, then a real case could be made that gay lib was indeed the culprit. In other words, in the less promiscuous society prior to gay lib HIV just puttered along killing the odd victim, but in the Bathhouse-opocene Era it exponentially exploded.

    By the way, I recently discovered the world of discussion boards and blogs of children of gay couples. It's my impression that a lot of them are not happy and are kind of screwed up. Looking for research on the matter I stumbled into the world of researchers who cannot get kids-of-gays research funded. It's taboo, apparently, to even study it, for to do so would be to imply that everything is possibly not copacetic.

    This is the crux of the whole thing, from the perspective of “how could anyone possibly have any problem with the poz?” and Kennedy’s execrable answer in Obergefell of animus alone.

    Kids do better with their moms and dads. We have a whole generation of children of divorce and broken families chafing hard at the denial of this truth, the denial of even its possibility. This is the motive force behind the present culture war.

    The elites (sic) are on the wrong side.

    • Replies: @Paleo Liberal
    Kids do best with a loving mother and a loving father who love each other as well.

    Unfortunately that is not always the case. In far too may cases there are divorces. In far too many cases there are abusive parents. In those cases we hope for, and try to legally allow, the best possible situation in what may be a collection of bad options.

    One of the reasons I am in favor of gay marriage is because some gays will raise families. Two loving mothers or two loving fathers may not be the ideal case, but it is vastly preferable to a single parent and whoever is staying over that night.

    Reproduction is a human right. We can’t and should not stop it. What we can do is allow for the best possible situation under the circumstances to be legally sanctioned.

  143. @Skyler_the_Weird
    AIDS in Africa was caused by the practice of reusing hypodermic needles for inoculation and vaccinations.

    To be precise, reusing needles cannot cause a disease to exist. It can spread a disease.

    One hypothesis is that sloppy practice in the massive smallpox vaccination campaign inadvertently spread AIDS around Africa. That was combined with the massive increase in long haul trucking . Lots of prostitution at truck stops in Africa. A long-haul trucker with AIDS could spread the disease from truck stop to truck stop, while the prostitutes spread AIDS from trucker to trucker within each truck stop.

    • Replies: @Ris_Eruwaedhiel
    Regarding long-haul truckers, I read that that's how it was spread in Botswana and India.

    There is a theory that one of Columbus' sailors introduced a virulent form of syphilis to Europe in 1493 and it quickly spread via sailors and prostitutes, leading to a breakout in China in 1503.
    , @Bubba
    Dr. Peter Duesberg, a modern day Galileo, is a professor of molecular biology at UC Berkeley and an expert on retroviruses.

    https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1991-05-21-vw-2451-story,amp.html

    He authored an excellent book in 1996 called Inventing the AIDS Virus. Prior to that he wrote a paper in ‘91 or ‘92 that was published in The Heritage Foundation magazine (which I can no longer find the link to) that argued the AIDS retrovirus was just a marker and could not be responsible for the the death of anyone who had it. Here is a link to a similar article in ‘95.

    https://www.the-scientist.com/opinion-old/duesberg-on-aids-causation-the-culprit-is-noncontagious-risk-factors-58592/amp

    If I recall Dr. Duesberg correctly, one thing he stated was that the AIDS virus violates Koch’s Postulates on infectious diseases. Here is his old website that is still (miraculously) online. https://www.duesberg.com/

    Anyway, Dr. Duesberg’s lab was defunded and he no longer studies retroviruses for his sins against the High Church of Globohomoism.
    , @Anonymous
    One hypothesis is that sloppy practice in the massive smallpox vaccination campaign inadvertently spread AIDS around Africa.

    I've seen this theory and it's convincing. It's an established fact that other, non-HIV, viruses crossed the species barrier due to careless vaccination practices in Africa, however it's denied that HIV entered the human population the same way. Maybe. So long as the individuals involved in these vaccination programs remain alive, don't expect anyone to look too closely at this.

  144. @Buzz Mohawk
    Might as well include the Vietnam War in the list of "1960s Movements" by Americans:

    http://slideplayer.com/slide/4272931/14/images/20/Casualties+of+War+Category+Year+Range+Low+estimates+Medium+estimates.jpg

    We sometimes forget how that farce ripped us apart and exacerbated the other insanities to which you (correctly) allude.

    I bit OT but to repsond to your posting:
    I’ve always felt (as do many historians) that LBJ decided to “escalate” US involvment in Vietnam to provide himself with political cover against accusations that he was soft on Communism. But what Vietnam inadvertently did was serve as a recruiting tool for the New Left in the 60s to draw in disaffected young men (and their female allies) who were understandably angered and outraged over this travesty of a war which should have never occured in the first place.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    This was just as true of FDR two decades earlier. With the Old Left serving as the "recruiting tool"-- for the war itself.
  145. @Desiderius
    This is the crux of the whole thing, from the perspective of “how could anyone possibly have any problem with the poz?” and Kennedy’s execrable answer in Obergefell of animus alone.

    Kids do better with their moms and dads. We have a whole generation of children of divorce and broken families chafing hard at the denial of this truth, the denial of even its possibility. This is the motive force behind the present culture war.

    The elites (sic) are on the wrong side.

    Kids do best with a loving mother and a loving father who love each other as well.

    Unfortunately that is not always the case. In far too may cases there are divorces. In far too many cases there are abusive parents. In those cases we hope for, and try to legally allow, the best possible situation in what may be a collection of bad options.

    One of the reasons I am in favor of gay marriage is because some gays will raise families. Two loving mothers or two loving fathers may not be the ideal case, but it is vastly preferable to a single parent and whoever is staying over that night.

    Reproduction is a human right. We can’t and should not stop it. What we can do is allow for the best possible situation under the circumstances to be legally sanctioned.

    • Replies: @dfordoom

    One of the reasons I am in favor of gay marriage is because some gays will raise families.
     
    That's precisely the reason you should oppose homosexual marriage. The risks of children being psychologically screwed up are just way too high. Especially with lesbian parents. And don't forget the incredibly high rates of lesbian domestic violence - not a good environment for child-rearing.
    , @Desiderius
    It is wrong to bring a child into the world intentionally bereft of a parent, whether mother or father.

    Finis.
    , @Reg Cæsar

    Reproduction is a human right.
     
    The existence of marriage is evidence that it isn't. What is marriage, if not a license to reproduce?

    Speaking out is a right; slander and libel are not. Worship is a right; human sacrifice is not. Deliberately depriving a child of his other parent is closer to a tort.

    You may ask, well what about adoption? But that's analogous to amputation, or more precisely, to transplants. Only performed in an emergency.

    , @AnotherDad

    Reproduction is a human right. We can’t and should not stop it. What we can do is allow for the best possible situation under the circumstances to be legally sanctioned.
     
    Holy cow.

    Where do you get that "reproduction is a human right"?

    If it is in some personal autonomy sense, that certainly doesn't mean that societies have to entertain your "right". Support it. Acknowledge it. Give your child rights. Or even allowing you to stay in the society while practicing your "right".

    Regulating reproduction so that it occurs in circumstances that actuallyreproduce civilized society is pretty much the one common factor that civilized societies do. I.e. the constrain reproduction so that it occurs in ways so that the next generation of people are capabale of and ready to carry the civilization on.

    ~~

    What we can do is allow for the best possible situation under the circumstances to be legally sanctioned.
     
    Correct.

    Which in every civilization in the history of man has meant that the only legal sanctioned reproduction is in heterosexual marriage. And that's loose "civilization", in all the highly successful civilizations the legal or practical norm is monogamous--one-per-customer-marriage.
    , @(((They))) Live
    Reproduction = a human right. LOL

    Are you one of those incels I keep hearing about ?

    Do you think there should be a government program to ensure everyone gets to exercise his/her rights
    , @MikeatMikedotMike
    "One of the reasons I am in favor of gay marriage is because some gays will raise families. Two loving mothers or two loving fathers "

    Considering the overwhelming evidence that suggests homosexual men seek out careers and organizations that put them in contact with abundant amounts of teenage boys (priesthood, sports coaching, the Boy Scouts, and teaching) the idea of two homosexual men adopting a young boy should be sounding deafening alarm bells in your head.
    , @JR Ewing
    Wait, two gays in a "marriage" can reproduce? What?
  146. @Daniel H
    the media failed to report on the topic, pressure the government for funds, and help deliver public health warnings

    I was around 82-86 and it seemed to me then, as now, that the media was constantly advocating for government involvement, demanding that more research be done, etc..

    I also remember the efforts of Mayor Ed Koch in New York City to shut down those horrid dens of iniquity - the gay bathhouses - and getting a tsunami of a tantrum from gays who insisted that these sex joints must stay open and only a self-hating, closeted gay homophobe could recommend otherwise. Gays knew that thousands, upon thousands were being infected in these bathhouses but their access to easy, promiscuous sex trumped all other considerations.

    BTW, the very notion of a gay bathouse, where men engage in sexual activity with multiples of other men - one after the other, after the other, after the other.....- in a public setting, is disgusting, revolting. It is degrading. Behaviour unworthy of a human being.

    It was observed at the at the time that for the first time in history, a fatal disease had civil rights.

    Ironic that Gays have achieved acceptance, considering that they are probably the most disease-ridden group in the world. In an earlier age, their general hedonism, which includes heavy drinking, drugs and smoking, would have doomed them to an early death, as well as universal social opprobrium.

  147. @Autochthon
    https://youtu.be/d6PGB6Nj2-s

    Both the book and its adaptation affirm the debauchery was indeed the problem. This scene has a good mix of the downright self-destructive patrons, the willfully ignorant enabler running the place, the condescending Jewess who wants to feign interest for appearances' sake but not actually do anything (for politics' sake), and the disinterested, horrified man with a practical bent too baffled by it all to even be effective. (Where can he even begin to sort out the shit-show he is confronting him at every turn? He is hopelessly trying to get a city full of bonobos to stop schtupping each other long enough for him to explain the rudimentary epidemiology to them they should have learned in their fifth-grade health classes....)

    The idea it was all about the Evil Apathetic Gubmint is a kind of projected value, made even worse now than it was at the time.

    That phenomenon of projection is common. A major analogue now is the adults on the planet saying "There are too many people and not enough resources for them; misery and destruction are accelerating – the savages must stop having ten children per couple!" with the stupid masses selectively hearing and projecting into it their own agenda. ("Hear, hear! Exactly right! We need to recycle more; use solar power; and let all the starving people into Europe, Australia, and North America, because those three continents have magically inexhaustible resources....")

    Likewise here. The book's point was "These people all acted irresponsibly, then went on doing so even as the chickens were coming home to roost, exacerbating the problem exponentially." But it became in the popular (stupid) mindset "Look how the government, whose job it is to solve all the problems in the world, let one happen – obvi its because they are bigoted against homosexual men, whom everyone knows are paragons of virtue, self-control, and responsibility! This book and film totes called The Man to account!"

    “The savages must stop having ten children per couple!”

    Per ‘couple’. Heh.

  148. @Hail
    Google hits for string "allowed AIDS to":

    Implicated include: "[George H.W. Bush's] inaction," "lack of attention from the press," "failure of the gay community to accept lifestyle changes," "Reagan allowed AIDS to spread", "government accountability," and best of all: "homophobia, white supremacy, and income inequality."


    Jonathan Van Ness: George H.W. Bush's 'Inaction Allowed AIDS to ...
    https://people.com › Politics
    Dec 6, 2018 - His inaction allowed the virus to spread, stigma to grow, and so many vulnerable people in the cold. ... People died of HIV / AIDS when George HW Bush left office. ... He served our country yes, but his hand guided so many towards HIV & stigma that still lasts today. ... In a 1990 speech, Bush ...
     

    Canadian Said to Have Had Key Role in Spread of AIDS - The New ...
    https://www.nytimes.com/.../canadian-said-to-have-had-key-role-in-spread-of-aids.html
    Oct 7, 1987 - ... lack of attention from the press and the initial failure of the gay community to accept changes in life style allowed AIDS to rage out of control in ...
     

    Limbaugh: AIDS "hasn't made that jump to the heterosexual community"
    https://www.mediamatters.org/research/2004/06/15/limbaugh-aids...to.../131271
    Jun 15, 2004 - ... distorted a remark by syndicated columnist Robert Scheer that "Reagan allowed AIDS to spread," erroneously accusing Scheer of stating that ...
     

    Comments on An ounce of prevention | The Economist
    https://www.economist.com/node/21576375/comments
    As you note, lack of government accountability allowed AIDS to spread undetected for three decades and undiagnosed for ten more years. Public health ...
     

    128th Annual Meeting (January 2-5, 2014): Local/National ...
    https://aha.confex.com/aha/2014/webprogram/Session10352.html
    ... scholars detail how homophobia, white supremacy, and income inequality have allowed AIDS to spread. Alternatively, the scholarship on responses to AIDS ...
     

    white supremacy definitely causes people to put condom free dicks up their butts. It’s one of the most well known built in features of white supremacy.

    • Replies: @Oswald Spengler
    It lends an entirely new meaning to the age-old complaint of "getting sctewed over by The Man."
  149. OT: Quillette’s Any Ngo targeted by Antifa fast zombies in Portland, nastily beaten up:

    Antifa’s Brutal Assault on Andy Ngo Is a Wake-Up Call—for Authorities and Journalists Alike

    This vignette is telling, because it points to the base motivations of many Antifa members—which seem to consist of glorifying themselves as freedom fighters on social media, and shutting down anyone who challenges their vainglorious narrative. Which brings us back to the reason Antifa activists were so eager to beat up our colleague Andy Ngo, a Portland resident who has been relentless in exposing the true face of Antifa. They attacked him for the simple reason that he has challenged their ideological propaganda—an Antifa tactic that any true fascist would recognize and applaud.

    It’s not as if “true fascists” were ever fighting “protesting” red mobs out to shred&rebuild society.

    Following the hate-killing of Heather Heyer by James A. Fields Jr. in Charlottesville, Virginia two years ago, attention was drawn to the problem of right-wing political violence.

    Swallowing the propaganda wholesale.

    Quillette is not straight.

  150. @The Germ Theory of Disease
    Guys, guys. There's a real finger/moon situation developing on this thread.

    The historiography of the tragic AIDS pandemic can be debated at length by historians and scholars (hopefully, less so by activists), and thankfully the entire disaster is far more under control than it was in the 80s and 90s. That is not the point.

    The massive problem which confronts us right now, today, and frankly it is a terrifying one, is not the public health issue but the public information issue. What Steve is really pointing out here is the level of totalitarian control over public consciousness now held by Google. And of course the other tech Cthulhus.

    In stark contrast to a vigorous scholarly debate about the nature of the AIDS epidemic, 30 years from now when scholars ought to be debating the history of how the American people entirely lost control over their own public sphere and their own public discourse, the debate won't even be /possible/ at that point, because all the information choke points by then will have been hermetically sealed by the Silicon Left pan-dictatorship. THAT is the AIDS-level crisis of our time. THAT is where the government fails to act, where awareness fails to be raised, where the "bathhouses" aren't shut down.

    In an honest world, Google would rename itself Galactus. Hell, they probably will.

    +1.

    The only thing I can think to do is buy actual books. I am making a concerted effort to buy books that are in danger of being disappeared, and to store them for my children. I suspect that their are a lot of books that were published in the 80s and 90s that will be beyond the pale for public consumption in the near future: The Man who would be Queen, Demonic Males, Principals of Population Genetics, Malvina Hoffman…

  151. @Bruno
    Is there an affinity between AIDS and gays and Africans other than promiscuity (higher average number of partner of the group and perhaps more anal intercourses ) ?

    Because straight people having more sex doesn’t result individually in high chances of getting aid. So it must be something related to the level of promiscuity of the group.

    I read that in big cities where dating apps are used, number of STD among straight people has soared to gay levels. So my guess it’s that the group promiscuity average, more than medical idiosyncrasies of blacks and gays, causes std.

    You are making a bad inference there because you are missing underlying facts, Bruno. That is, the method of transmission is different with AIDS vs. the common other STDs. AIDS is transmitted via blood. No blood exchanges “hands” during regular sex, but the common STDs of course can be transmitted.

    Gay sex, OTOH, involves, well, I don’t want to get into details, but more blood can be mixed …

    It’d stand to reason that when straight people are promiscuous, the common STDs would spread around, but AIDs would not. For Gay people, I suppose it could be both, but I think many STDs involve the women parts more, as they are like moist, comfortable petri dishes.

    • Agree: Bruno
  152. OT: My black narcissism & victim-signalling detector is suspiciously redlining

    ‘I’d compare my life with Jesus, I’ve been crucified’ – Semenya on IAAF testosterone battle

    Caster Semenya says testosterone case against IAAF has ‘destroyed’ her ‘mentally and physically’

    Afterwards, she told the BBC that she was being “crucified” amid her battle with the IAAF and said it was destroying her “physically and mentally.”

    “I cannot say I’ve been victimized. I think I set an example,” she said.

    “I think I’m in this world for a reason. I think I am a living testimony. I would say I’m a savior.

    “If you read the Bible you will understand what I’m talking about. If I may compare my life, I would compare my life with Jesus. I’ve been crucified, I’ve been done bad.

    “But at the end of the day I’m still here, am still alive. I am still standing,” she added defiantly.

  153. One of the reasons I am in favor of gay marriage is because some gays will raise families.

    ‘Two dads are better than one’: the reason why Russia doesn’t do gay adoptions anymore, and good for them. Nauseating.
    https://archive.org/details/TwoDadsAreBetterThanOne

    ‘Satan in baby grow’: “The [baby] girl died after months of assaults and abuse by [gay adoptive father] Scully-Hicks, the court heard”
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4962982/Gay-father-killed-adopted-daughter.html

  154. @doxmenot
    From page 131 - 132 of "And the Band Played On" by Randy Shilts, (gay) reporter for the San Francisco Chronicle - "A typical GRID case had sex with 1,100 men in his lifetime...", from research by the CDC from the mid 1980s.

    Who knew this or reported it? I never heard it from any source - until I read the book.
    (GRID, later HIV - AIDS, Gay related immune disorder.) What I heard in college was that gays who got AIDS or HIV were no more promiscuous than straights.

    That number is also quoted in the 1982 NYT GRIDs article. We don’t know the exact numbers today and probably will never be told, but it’s undoubtedy high.

    The CDC actually has published transmission rates by risk factor and the risk is far lower than what most would assume. The risk of transmission from a woman to a man is only 4 per 10,000 exposures. Receptive anal intercourse is the highest risk sexual practice and even that is only 138 per 10,000 exposures. Needless to say the number of “exposures” must be quite high. This would mean that on average you’d expect someone to have taken around six dozen poz loads before becoming infected, plus they’ve presumably had “neg” partners, etc. So the partner count is likely in the hundreds.

    Of course, in Hollywood movies like Philadelphia, Tom Hanks is in a committed relationship and gets HIV from a single instance of infidelity. Riiiiiight.

    https://www.cdc.gov/hiv/risk/estimates/riskbehaviors.html

  155. @TheMediumIsTheMassage
    I've seen this posted a lot on places like iSteve and its lower IQ counterparts (/pol/, Et. al.). Yes, it was called GRID because they thought it only happened in gay men. A few years later and 'GRID' became obsolete because they realized it was the same disease affecting drug users, Africans, haemophiliacs, etc. Nowadays the vast majority of people infected with HIV are not gay men.

    Mr. Massage, you have pretty good comments on other subjects. You can’t go bullshitting people on here though.

  156. @countenance
    AIDS was in the United States and specifically in St. Louis by 1966.

    There was a locally famous case of a black teenager in St. Louis by the name of Robert Rayford who died of a then mysterious ailment in 1969 at the age of 16. Once AIDS was discovered and became better understood, researchers went back and found out that AIDS is what did Rayford in. His symptoms started appearing in 1966.

    AIDS was in the United States and specifically in St. Louis by 1966.

    There was a locally famous case of a black teenager in St. Louis by the name of Robert Rayford who died of a then mysterious ailment in 1969 at the age of 16. Once AIDS was discovered and became better understood, researchers went back and found out that AIDS is what did Rayford in. His symptoms started appearing in 1966.

    Never confirmed by a PCR test, please link if I am wrong here, Western Blot had many false positives.

    There was a family history of similar wasting illnesses.

    Almost certainly not HIV

  157. @Nick Diaz
    Steve Sailer:

    "Gay Liberation Caused AIDS"

    First of all, you couldn't care less about the lives of gay men. That is just an excuse from you to jusitify keeping gay men forcefully in the closet so as to not get in the way of your ideal Society of married straight people with kids. *That* is what you really care about.

    Secondly, even if your intention of saving the lives of gay men were genuine(it is not), this is your solution? To baby sit adults and tell them what they can and cannot do with their own lives? Brilliant solution, Sailer. Let's extend your argument. People getting drunk and crashing cars? Either Prohibition or outlawing cars. People dying of drug overdoses? War on drugs. Oh wait, you conservatives already got that for 40 years, and the results are stellar. Not only do people continue to die of drug overdoses, but now we have massive corruption of government agencies, a huge and costly government bureaucracy, prisons full of people at tax payer expensve, and more drugs than ever keep pouring in. People dying of obesity? Let's outlaw cheetos. Or better yet, let's outlaw food altogether since then the problem will be solved for sure. Young men wasting too much of their time and lives masturbating to porn? Outlaw porn, and have them rape women instead. Prostitution spreading infections? Oh way, just outlaw it and have millions of men die as virgins. I mean, only a few thousand will blow up their schools and go on killing sprees, and that's a small price to pay to prevent the spread of clamidea even though just using condoms is far more effective, but conservatives know better with their idiotic moral prejudices!

    'Gay liberation caused AIDS." What a lying, moronic, stupid statement.

    Calm down, nitwit.

    You want to live in a society run by-and-for homosexuals? Go do so. Leave us out of it. Normal, decent people don’t want that. For the simple reason that a society run to suit the deviant proclivities of homosexuals would be (is, as we are finding out) sh**ty, awful, and dysfunctional.

  158. @Veracitor
    Gay liberation led to AIDS, then...

    AIDS led directly to gay marriage.

    The chief motivation for the gay marriage movement which arose in the 1980’s was to enable AIDS sufferers to tap the employment-based health insurance policies of their homosexual partners. This was a serious thing. Gay men with AIDS would get too sick to work and lose their own health insurance, then they would be too poor to afford all the costly medical care they needed. They looked around and saw that when straight husbands or wives got too sick to work they would often remain insured under their spouses’ plans. The gays wanted the same arrangement.

    At first this was the main organizing point of the gay marriage movement, complete with media profiles of sympathetic gay couples, one sick, the other still in pretty good shape. However, the financial motive seemed a little crass. Worse, forcing employers’ health-insurance plans to take on gay spouses who were already sick with a very costly disease (in those days before antivirals) was a type of “pre-existing condition” problem— suddenly having to pay for unexpected AIDS victims meant reducing benefits for all other workers and their families. (Insurance rates had been set to cover gay workers getting sick just like straight workers, but not to cover unexpected “gay spouses.”)

    The gay marriage movement wasn’t stupid. Soon it soft-pedaled the whole insurance thing; started to emphasize the intense social longing of gays to marry and live monogamous lives of mutual devotion; claimed that AIDS was caused by the lack of gay marriage which virtually forced gays into promiscuity; asserted that failure to offer marriage licenses to gay couples was exactly the same thing as denying them to interracial straight couples; and finally, with some justice, complained that without gay marriage to give them legal power some gays were frozen out of final care decisions and funeral arrangements for their AIDS-afflicted partners by the aging parents of those partners who resented the fact that homosexual acquaintances had killed their sons by infecting them with AIDS.

    The first- and second-phase gay marriage movement won enough public (or at least political) sympathy to obtain “domestic partner” laws which delivered the “spousal” health insurance and legal privileges. However, when antiviral drugs softened the AIDS disaster so much that it ceased to worry gays, much less the general public, the leaders of the gay-marriage movement were not prepared to give up a good gig. They decided “domestic partner” status was not as dignified as (straight) marriage. Worse, they decided that since they had whipped AIDS (not true, of course; mostly-straight medical researchers had done that) they could whip “homophobia” too— force recalcitrant straights not just to tolerate homosexuals and pay to treat their STD’s, but to endorse gayness under pain of legal punishment for any lack of enthusiasm. So the movement for “gay marriage” became the movement for gay marriage, not “undignified” domestic-partnership, of which the whole point was to destroy the free-speech rights of “homophobes” since the practical demands that first animated the movement had all been won already.

    I wonder if Mayor Pete Buttplug’s married because it makes him look relatively respectable?

    TV shows like “Modern Family” present “married” gay couples as very like straight couples, except, in this case, the couple consists of two men. The reality is that even “committed” male gay couples don’t value fidelity and most “marriages” are short-lived. Gay marriage is more popular with lesbians, anyway.

  159. @Jim Christian

    One of the earliest recognized symptoms was referred to as Gay Bowel Syndrome. Try saying that today.
     
    They're saying it today, only quietly and with another motive. Ever notice all the commercials for new scrips and OTC remedies for all sorts of bowel disorders all the way out to a slew of HepC drugs being pushed out? The fisting/anal sex/glory-hole disorders are showing themselves in all sorts of ways, not the least being commercial, especially with women as frequent targets of the advertising for such 'remedies'.

    Reagan was responsible for AIDS only in that he didn't outlaw gay bathhouses and orgies and double down on public health announcements telling the truth of these activities.

    Joe Sobran once observed that that human anus is a poop shoot – stuff is supposed to come out, not go in.

    • LOL: jim jones
  160. @countenance
    AIDS was in the United States and specifically in St. Louis by 1966.

    There was a locally famous case of a black teenager in St. Louis by the name of Robert Rayford who died of a then mysterious ailment in 1969 at the age of 16. Once AIDS was discovered and became better understood, researchers went back and found out that AIDS is what did Rayford in. His symptoms started appearing in 1966.

    What can we conclude from this?

    Possibilities:

    1 Different virus (e.g. bitten by monkey with SIV)
    2 Same virus before mutation
    3 Pretty much HIV in ’66 which for some reason didn’t break out of its reservoir
    4 No virus but a problem with M. Rayfords immune system
    4 Other?

    There should be more cases than a single black teenager dying at 16.

    Otherwise it’s a case w/o any interest because nothing scientific can be be built on “freak events”.

  161. @Nick Diaz
    Steve Sailer:

    "Gay Liberation Caused AIDS"

    First of all, you couldn't care less about the lives of gay men. That is just an excuse from you to jusitify keeping gay men forcefully in the closet so as to not get in the way of your ideal Society of married straight people with kids. *That* is what you really care about.

    Secondly, even if your intention of saving the lives of gay men were genuine(it is not), this is your solution? To baby sit adults and tell them what they can and cannot do with their own lives? Brilliant solution, Sailer. Let's extend your argument. People getting drunk and crashing cars? Either Prohibition or outlawing cars. People dying of drug overdoses? War on drugs. Oh wait, you conservatives already got that for 40 years, and the results are stellar. Not only do people continue to die of drug overdoses, but now we have massive corruption of government agencies, a huge and costly government bureaucracy, prisons full of people at tax payer expensve, and more drugs than ever keep pouring in. People dying of obesity? Let's outlaw cheetos. Or better yet, let's outlaw food altogether since then the problem will be solved for sure. Young men wasting too much of their time and lives masturbating to porn? Outlaw porn, and have them rape women instead. Prostitution spreading infections? Oh way, just outlaw it and have millions of men die as virgins. I mean, only a few thousand will blow up their schools and go on killing sprees, and that's a small price to pay to prevent the spread of clamidea even though just using condoms is far more effective, but conservatives know better with their idiotic moral prejudices!

    'Gay liberation caused AIDS." What a lying, moronic, stupid statement.

    Well, you guys are out of the closet now and it hasn’t seemed to change anything about your behavior. The closet was so terrible that you drilled a hole in the side to share new strains of gonorrhea through, and incorporated it into your ‘culture.’ The glory holes and bathhouses remain, supplemented by modern innovations in viral delivery like Grindr. Homosexual promiscuity and willful risk-taking behavior have increased; I’m told it’s only fair (a civil rights issue, no less) that the cost of developing, producing and administering expensive treatments for those afflicted by AIDS be borne by society at large- when the alternative is subjecting the gays to the onerous and unbearable burden of not exposing one’s anal lining to hundreds of strangers without a condom.

    You know who doesn’t care about the lives of gay men? Gay men. It’s not the straights dragging you to 200 sexual encounters with complete strangers a year. Thanks for making Barnes & Noble have to send security personnel to sweep the bathroom a few times an hour!

  162. @Anon
    Gays have always had a strong sexual preference for teens. This is not widely discussed in polite society anymore, but it's a fact of gay life.

    In cultures that tolerate homosexual activity (e.g., the Moslem world), the accepted relationship is an older man with a boy or very young man. A 30-year-old man and a 12-year-old boy would be acceptable; two 30-year-old men would be considered sick.

    Men have also been universally expected to marry women and have children. In the Moslem world, only the most ardent fundie would object if a married man with children kept a harem of boys on the side.

    In other words, homosexual activity is acceptable as a side dish, not the main course. That’s what’s unique in today’s world.

    • Replies: @MikeatMikedotMike
    When I was in Saudi Arabia, the popular saying for Arabs was "Women are for babies, boys are for pleasure."
  163. @Charles_Martel
    Let's not forget the Haitians, who along with gays were thought to be carriers of AIDS, and were thought to have contracted the disease--let's see now, was it from eating monkeys or having sex with pigs, or perhaps both? Anyway, I remember back at the very beginning of public awareness about AIDS, the following joke:

    Q. What is the worst thing about having AIDS?
    A. Having to tell your mother you had sex with a Haitian!

    When it became clear that AIDS was spread through anal sex and sharing needles, the joking stopped. And the Haitians were exonerated.

    What’s wrong with Haitians? Some, I assume, are good men.

  164. @Paleo Liberal
    Many years ago I read in New Scientist, a British publication, that the tissues of an English sailor who died in London in 1959 was shown to have been a death by AIDS.

    The sailor in question was thought to have contracted the disease during his trips to Africa.

    This shows how luck of the draw affects life

    Suppose more sailors had contracted AIDS. Suppose they lived long enough to give AIDS to a number of prostitutes in British ports, and suppose the disease spread around London and Liverpool and the like just when promiscuous sex and IV drug use were spreading.

    Instead of a gay flight attendant in the 70s, had luck gone another way AIDS could have come to the US with the British Invasion, spreading through young people with sex and IV drug use.

    All in all, the AIDS epidemic in the US was a mere sideshow to the vastly larger epidemic in Africa. It was inevitable that the disease would reach the US. It was a matter of when and how.

    Many years ago I read in New Scientist, a British publication, that the tissues of an English sailor who died in London in 1959 was shown to have been a death by AIDS.

    Later discovered to not be HIV, lab contamination of one sort or another.

    What is now called Idiopathic CD4 positive T-lymphocytopenia.

    There was one true early, early outbreak in the West, in Norway, centred around a sailor called Arne Vidar Røed who visited Africa in the 60’s, died 1976.

    Instead of a gay flight attendant in the 70s, had luck gone another way AIDS could have come to the US with the British Invasion, spreading through young people with sex and IV drug use.

    Male homosexual practices are a particularly efficient vector.

  165. @Jim Christian

    One of the earliest recognized symptoms was referred to as Gay Bowel Syndrome. Try saying that today.
     
    They're saying it today, only quietly and with another motive. Ever notice all the commercials for new scrips and OTC remedies for all sorts of bowel disorders all the way out to a slew of HepC drugs being pushed out? The fisting/anal sex/glory-hole disorders are showing themselves in all sorts of ways, not the least being commercial, especially with women as frequent targets of the advertising for such 'remedies'.

    Reagan was responsible for AIDS only in that he didn't outlaw gay bathhouses and orgies and double down on public health announcements telling the truth of these activities.

    A notable thing about all the pharma ads on TV – none of the people in them look remotely sick. They all seem to be in telegenic good health. They look nothing like the sort of people you see in a hospital waiting room.

  166. @Peter Akuleyev
    But somehow most gay/bi rock stars of the 1970s did not/have not die(d) of AIDS - Elton John, Rob Halford, Bowie, George Michael, etc. George Michael's boyfriend died of AIDS, but somehow George never got infected? There may still be a lot about HIV that is not being explained correctly.

    George Michael’s boyfriend died of AIDS, but somehow George never got infected? There may still be a lot about HIV that is not being explained correctly.

    A certain percentage, no-one seems sure, maybe 5%, maybe 15% of North West Europeans have the CCR5-delta32 mutation, which confers immunity to HIV. Dunno if that is the case here because, thinking about it, George was a Greek Cypriot.

    Some-one with more knowledge might like to chime in on how this mutation works and where it might have come from.

    Since SSAs have no immunity it’s clearly a new-ish disease.

    • Replies: @(((They))) Live
    Maybe George was a pitcher not a catcher

    I assume that would effect his chances of getting infected
    , @Reg Cæsar

    ...thinking about it, George was a Greek Cypriot.
     
    Cat Stevens is half-Greek, half-Swedish. You'd think the former would grant him some immunity against Islam, but evidently not.
  167. Thw older I get the more tolerant I become of the notion that AIDS is just God’s way of telling homosexuals to please stop being so gay.

    • Agree: Dtbb
    • Replies: @El Dato
    If you play the RNA backwards on a Reverse Transciptase, you can hear the message...
    , @Ris_Eruwaedhiel
    Certainly Mother Nature's.
  168. @Paleo Liberal
    To be precise, reusing needles cannot cause a disease to exist. It can spread a disease.

    One hypothesis is that sloppy practice in the massive smallpox vaccination campaign inadvertently spread AIDS around Africa. That was combined with the massive increase in long haul trucking . Lots of prostitution at truck stops in Africa. A long-haul trucker with AIDS could spread the disease from truck stop to truck stop, while the prostitutes spread AIDS from trucker to trucker within each truck stop.

    Regarding long-haul truckers, I read that that’s how it was spread in Botswana and India.

    There is a theory that one of Columbus’ sailors introduced a virulent form of syphilis to Europe in 1493 and it quickly spread via sailors and prostitutes, leading to a breakout in China in 1503.

    • Replies: @Discordiax
    The Columbian Exchange syphilis epidemic hit Italy and France at the exact same time as a French invasion of the Kingdom of Naples--the French called it "the Italian disease", the Italians called it "the French disease.
  169. @Hypnotoad666
    I think the politically correct response to AIDS was just another manifestation of the constant that is progressive thinking.

    The progressive mind seems to always focus on symbolism, narratives, and virtue signalling at the expense of reality.

    So all the progressive effort was put into "destigmatizing" AIDS victims and treating the disease as a civil rights issue. They didn't worry so much, however, about taking the actual steps necessary to minimize the death toll.

    If the disease, by contrast, had struck only, say, little girls, we would have imposed an emergency quarantine or whatever other steps were required to save all lives possible. But progressivism always elevate symbolism over results.

    We're just lucky the scientists came through in relatively short order. Or who knows what the death toll would have been.

    If the disease, by contrast, had struck only, say, little girls, we would have imposed an emergency quarantine or whatever other steps were required to save all lives possible.

    Well, unless it only struck little girls who were molested by Hollywood pedophiles, in which case the connection would remain a total mystery.

  170. @Reg Cæsar

    Well AIDS was originally called GRID.
     
    Gives a new twist to the phrase "living off the grid".

    One of the earliest recognized symptoms was referred to as Gay Bowel Syndrome. Try saying that today.

    I know everyone is scared of Big Gay and now Corporate Gay, but I’m always amazed that the medical community is so silent on the damage from anal penetration.

    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
    "I’m always amazed that the medical community is so silent on the damage from anal penetration"

    I don't think many medical professionals want to find a mob on their doorstep, but the data is out there, even if some of it's from 1993. Like geriatric specialists, it's going to be boom time for colorectal specialists and surgeons in a few years.


    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-analsex-incontinence/anal-sex-linked-to-increased-risk-of-incontinence-idUSKCN0VD2RH

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1293903/

    http://theoncologist.alphamedpress.org/content/12/5/524.full

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2090506812001121
    , @guest
    Part of me wants to think it's too obvious to mention. I mean, that's where poop comes out and it's very easy to make bleed.

    Then again, most people are idiots and have to be told it's not a good idea to run head-first into a brick wall at full speed without a helmet.
  171. @Fen Tiger

    Physicians did not ask AIDS patients with whom they had sex, and therefore did not follow up with them.
     
    Anecdotally, a friend of mine was a newly-qualified neurologist who had landed a career-making opportunity: to interview everyone found to be HIV-positive in the southern half of England in a year. This was early in the epidemic.

    A year or two later, I met him and talk turned to careers. He was downcast: it was clear, he said, that a huge AIDS epidemic was not going to happen. This was a surprise to me, because the UK's safe-sex propaganda campaign was already in progress.

    When I asked why, he said (I quote from memory), "it's not that AIDS isn't lethal: pretty much everyone I interviewed is now dead; it's that the main factor in the best epidemiological model we've got as yet is the average number of sexual partners per year across a population - squared. The average yearly number of partners for heterosexuals aged 20-40 in the UK is less than 2; most of the people I interviewed would think nothing of having several times that number of partners in a weekend - or an evening."

    Turned out he was right. The officials and politicians who pushed the "not a gay plague" line knew - or had no excuse for not knowing - it was false, almost from the beginning; but they did it anyway.

    Not only the promiscuity, but the ability to have several partners in an evening was the result of using drugs that enhanced sexual performance. It was the thesis of the researcher Peter Duesberg that that drug use was the cause of the rare cancers that gay men were getting. Yes, I know that the Wikipedia article on Duesberg says that that thesis has been discredited, but I do not trust the science in any area that has strong political repercussions.

  172. @Anon
    Remember that book on patient zero, the flight attendant guy? I was surprised a few years ago to learn that the book and its author have been cancelled. Apparently the gay community considers it the equivalent of Mein Kampf or The Bell Curve. At the time it was highly respected, somewhat in the same category of solid investigative journalism as the recent Theranos book.

    At any rate, there have been several supposed findings in preserved tissue of HIV from patients who died decades prior to the AIDS outbreak in the US. If that's true, then a real case could be made that gay lib was indeed the culprit. In other words, in the less promiscuous society prior to gay lib HIV just puttered along killing the odd victim, but in the Bathhouse-opocene Era it exponentially exploded.

    By the way, I recently discovered the world of discussion boards and blogs of children of gay couples. It's my impression that a lot of them are not happy and are kind of screwed up. Looking for research on the matter I stumbled into the world of researchers who cannot get kids-of-gays research funded. It's taboo, apparently, to even study it, for to do so would be to imply that everything is possibly not copacetic.

    I’ve often wondered whether HIV has been around a very long time, and is one of the reasons for the taboo on homosexual conduct. As long as homosexuals were forced to stay “in the closet,” the rate of HIV transmission was pretty low. But when homosexuality became publicly acceptable, the high levels of promiscuity in the homosexual community started resulting in large numbers of deaths. People noticed.

  173. @TheMediumIsTheMassage
    I've seen this posted a lot on places like iSteve and its lower IQ counterparts (/pol/, Et. al.). Yes, it was called GRID because they thought it only happened in gay men. A few years later and 'GRID' became obsolete because they realized it was the same disease affecting drug users, Africans, haemophiliacs, etc. Nowadays the vast majority of people infected with HIV are not gay men.

    Thanks for pointing out that

    originally called

    means just that. Looks like you need to lose a few IQ points to understand reality.

  174. @Michael S
    It basically does occur only in gay men. I forget the exact number, but I believe it was something like a black, gay man being 60 times more likely to contract HIV than a white heterosexual man. Remove the black, and it's still 20 or 30 times more likely.

    Not percent. Times. Gay men have about 95% of the AIDS, with gay black men being about 75% of that.

    I am hardly convinced that the spread of HIV in Africa isn't also related to homosexual behavior there; it's just much harder to track.

    In Africa untreated general diseases exacerbated by the African penchant for dry sex (unlubricated intercourse) that is held to be more rewarding. African prostitutes are said to use powders to dry the necessary machinery for the benefit of their clients.

  175. @Peter Akuleyev
    Their power is bafflingly that great at this time.

    No mystery. Our "conservative" President is a great friend of the homosexual community, and has been dating back to his relationship with Roy Cohn. He's a New Yorker with extravagant taste and has always enjoyed having gays as part of his social scene.

    In the words of Fox News:

    "Without a doubt, Trump is the most pro-gay Republican president in American history. He is also the first president from either political party to enter the White House while supporting same-sex marriage, and he has made a bold commitment to eradicate HIV domestically by 2030. Taking all of this into account, Trump is situated to become the most pro-gay president ever."

    Well Trump’s pretty gay about building the wall.

  176. @Bruno
    Is there an affinity between AIDS and gays and Africans other than promiscuity (higher average number of partner of the group and perhaps more anal intercourses ) ?

    Because straight people having more sex doesn’t result individually in high chances of getting aid. So it must be something related to the level of promiscuity of the group.

    I read that in big cities where dating apps are used, number of STD among straight people has soared to gay levels. So my guess it’s that the group promiscuity average, more than medical idiosyncrasies of blacks and gays, causes std.

    There was an old crank virologist at Berkeley who claimed African AIDS was just a renaming of third world diseases SSAs have always gotten, and that the level of HIV has always been rather constant.

    He said e.g. that Africans didn’t tend to get Kaposi’s Sarcoma. I don’t know if that’s true.

    The purpose of the renaming was to create hysteria, pour more money into Africa and get them to wear condoms. You see how that worked out.

    Anyway, Prof. Deusburg as been duly quarantined by the university.

  177. @TheMediumIsTheMassage
    Steve, please don't jump the shark. You know better than this. AIDS was caused by a great multitude of factors, not gays being able to somewhat live their lives without having to hide in fear of being thrown in jail/fired/etc in the 70s. We were still having sex in the decades prior, FYI. I'd encourage you to read 'And the Band Played On' by Randy Shilts, one of the definitive texts on the early days of the AIDS epidemic. The faults of many gay community leaders, bathhouse owners, etc. are laid bare in that book, but it's far more than just them. The government and medical institutions failed to respond; the media failed to report on the topic, pressure the government for funds, and help deliver public health warnings; blood banks refused to heed warnings from scientists.

    If it had been treated the way Legionnaire's Disease was a few years prior, the number of victims would have been enormously reduced, but it was essentially allowed to spread unchecked until the mid to late 80s. Gay community activists who put sexual liberation first and protested against bathhouse closure and widespread, direct public health campaigns are certainly to blame as well, but they were also operating from a place of (understandable) deep mistrust towards the government.

    At any rate, AIDS would have spread even if there hadn't been any gay liberation because of African immigrants and intravenous drug users, in whom the spread of the disease was entirely separate from the gay community rooted in New York and San Francisco in the early 80s. The first cases in many European countries, for example, were in African immigrants. The disease was coming to America and the rest of the world no matter what. The long latent period of the virus (over 5 years on average) and the fact that the world was already quite globalized with constant air travel ensured that.

    Today, AIDS affects several orders of magnitude more people in Africa, which has nothing to do with gay liberation.

    The government and medical institutions failed to respond; the media failed to report on the topic, pressure the government for funds, and help deliver public health warnings; blood banks refused to heed warnings from scientists.

    This is straight up idiocy. The media drumbeat on AIDS was non-stop. Of course, much of it was deliberate disinformation (“it’s going to infect the straight community any day now!”), but to suggest there was some plot to keep the story hidden is ludicrous. It was inescapable.

    Politicians were carping about it all over the place. Demands for ever increased research funding were furious, as over-the-top as any 2019 SJW moral panic. The problem with the medical side was gay and Leftist opposition to sensible health procedures. The obvious response was to quarantine victims to stop the spread, but anyone who brought this up was immediately shouted down as a bigot by media and Liberal politicians. The medical response was 100% distorted by the politics of AIDS and was ineffective as a result. Gay activists and Liberals have tremendous amounts of blood on their hands.

    • Agree: YetAnotherAnon
  178. @TheMediumIsTheMassage
    Steve, please don't jump the shark. You know better than this. AIDS was caused by a great multitude of factors, not gays being able to somewhat live their lives without having to hide in fear of being thrown in jail/fired/etc in the 70s. We were still having sex in the decades prior, FYI. I'd encourage you to read 'And the Band Played On' by Randy Shilts, one of the definitive texts on the early days of the AIDS epidemic. The faults of many gay community leaders, bathhouse owners, etc. are laid bare in that book, but it's far more than just them. The government and medical institutions failed to respond; the media failed to report on the topic, pressure the government for funds, and help deliver public health warnings; blood banks refused to heed warnings from scientists.

    If it had been treated the way Legionnaire's Disease was a few years prior, the number of victims would have been enormously reduced, but it was essentially allowed to spread unchecked until the mid to late 80s. Gay community activists who put sexual liberation first and protested against bathhouse closure and widespread, direct public health campaigns are certainly to blame as well, but they were also operating from a place of (understandable) deep mistrust towards the government.

    At any rate, AIDS would have spread even if there hadn't been any gay liberation because of African immigrants and intravenous drug users, in whom the spread of the disease was entirely separate from the gay community rooted in New York and San Francisco in the early 80s. The first cases in many European countries, for example, were in African immigrants. The disease was coming to America and the rest of the world no matter what. The long latent period of the virus (over 5 years on average) and the fact that the world was already quite globalized with constant air travel ensured that.

    Today, AIDS affects several orders of magnitude more people in Africa, which has nothing to do with gay liberation.

    AIDS was caused by a

    AIDS is caused by a virus. The spread of it is something entirely different as the other commenters point out.

  179. @Charles_Martel
    Let's not forget the Haitians, who along with gays were thought to be carriers of AIDS, and were thought to have contracted the disease--let's see now, was it from eating monkeys or having sex with pigs, or perhaps both? Anyway, I remember back at the very beginning of public awareness about AIDS, the following joke:

    Q. What is the worst thing about having AIDS?
    A. Having to tell your mother you had sex with a Haitian!

    When it became clear that AIDS was spread through anal sex and sharing needles, the joking stopped. And the Haitians were exonerated.

    “The Anus IS NOT a sex organ” as some would say.

  180. @Peter Akuleyev
    Their power is bafflingly that great at this time.

    No mystery. Our "conservative" President is a great friend of the homosexual community, and has been dating back to his relationship with Roy Cohn. He's a New Yorker with extravagant taste and has always enjoyed having gays as part of his social scene.

    In the words of Fox News:

    "Without a doubt, Trump is the most pro-gay Republican president in American history. He is also the first president from either political party to enter the White House while supporting same-sex marriage, and he has made a bold commitment to eradicate HIV domestically by 2030. Taking all of this into account, Trump is situated to become the most pro-gay president ever."

    One of the early ACTUP leaders was Trump’s publicist.

  181. JMcG says:
    @TheMediumIsTheMassage
    Steve, please don't jump the shark. You know better than this. AIDS was caused by a great multitude of factors, not gays being able to somewhat live their lives without having to hide in fear of being thrown in jail/fired/etc in the 70s. We were still having sex in the decades prior, FYI. I'd encourage you to read 'And the Band Played On' by Randy Shilts, one of the definitive texts on the early days of the AIDS epidemic. The faults of many gay community leaders, bathhouse owners, etc. are laid bare in that book, but it's far more than just them. The government and medical institutions failed to respond; the media failed to report on the topic, pressure the government for funds, and help deliver public health warnings; blood banks refused to heed warnings from scientists.

    If it had been treated the way Legionnaire's Disease was a few years prior, the number of victims would have been enormously reduced, but it was essentially allowed to spread unchecked until the mid to late 80s. Gay community activists who put sexual liberation first and protested against bathhouse closure and widespread, direct public health campaigns are certainly to blame as well, but they were also operating from a place of (understandable) deep mistrust towards the government.

    At any rate, AIDS would have spread even if there hadn't been any gay liberation because of African immigrants and intravenous drug users, in whom the spread of the disease was entirely separate from the gay community rooted in New York and San Francisco in the early 80s. The first cases in many European countries, for example, were in African immigrants. The disease was coming to America and the rest of the world no matter what. The long latent period of the virus (over 5 years on average) and the fact that the world was already quite globalized with constant air travel ensured that.

    Today, AIDS affects several orders of magnitude more people in Africa, which has nothing to do with gay liberation.

    If , say, breast cancer or prostate cancer had received the attention and funding that AIDS has, how many people would be alive now that have died from those diseases?
    After the initial innocents died from infected blood transfusions, no one has to contract AIDS any longer unless they wish to. That’s the cold hard fact.

    • Replies: @TheMediumIsTheMassage
    So the hundreds of thousands of gay men who died worldwide were not innocents in your view? Why? A huge amount were infected in the late 70s/early 80s before anyone knew what was even happening.
  182. @Michael S
    It basically does occur only in gay men. I forget the exact number, but I believe it was something like a black, gay man being 60 times more likely to contract HIV than a white heterosexual man. Remove the black, and it's still 20 or 30 times more likely.

    Not percent. Times. Gay men have about 95% of the AIDS, with gay black men being about 75% of that.

    I am hardly convinced that the spread of HIV in Africa isn't also related to homosexual behavior there; it's just much harder to track.

    Rape is a big one there. Anything that causes open wounds in mucous tissue will do it.

  183. @Daniel H
    the media failed to report on the topic, pressure the government for funds, and help deliver public health warnings

    I was around 82-86 and it seemed to me then, as now, that the media was constantly advocating for government involvement, demanding that more research be done, etc..

    I also remember the efforts of Mayor Ed Koch in New York City to shut down those horrid dens of iniquity - the gay bathhouses - and getting a tsunami of a tantrum from gays who insisted that these sex joints must stay open and only a self-hating, closeted gay homophobe could recommend otherwise. Gays knew that thousands, upon thousands were being infected in these bathhouses but their access to easy, promiscuous sex trumped all other considerations.

    BTW, the very notion of a gay bathouse, where men engage in sexual activity with multiples of other men - one after the other, after the other, after the other.....- in a public setting, is disgusting, revolting. It is degrading. Behaviour unworthy of a human being.

    Agreed 100%. I think 60 minutes did a show on how AIDS infected gays were quarantined in Cuba. The cognitive dissonance among my lefty acquaintances was palpable.

  184. @Bruno
    Is there an affinity between AIDS and gays and Africans other than promiscuity (higher average number of partner of the group and perhaps more anal intercourses ) ?

    Because straight people having more sex doesn’t result individually in high chances of getting aid. So it must be something related to the level of promiscuity of the group.

    I read that in big cities where dating apps are used, number of STD among straight people has soared to gay levels. So my guess it’s that the group promiscuity average, more than medical idiosyncrasies of blacks and gays, causes std.

    Anecdotally true. A LOT of the young guys I work with have had syphilis and/or gonorrhea. I was stricken dumb when I heard them discussing it once. It didn’t seem to faze them in the slightest.
    What a mess we’ve made of things.

    • Replies: @UrbaneFrancoOntarian
    What industry do you work In?
  185. AIDS was transmitted by anal sex, largely. I was disgusted by all the talk about “safe sex” that failed to zero in on the primary means of transmission. I was also shocked in reading “Boys In The Band” that seemed to barely mention this at all. And I was also disgusted, years ago, by Robert Bazell ( NBC Science Editor) who seemed embarrassed on air by mentioning anal sex as transmitting the disease.

    I recall that a study of hemophiliacs who caught AIDS via transfusion showed a dramatic difference on whether or not their wives got AIDS came down to vaginal vs anal sex.

    Nature doesn’t care about any of us – and disease is part of nature.

    All That Said, Did AIDS research show us something very important about medical progress? Is it possible that all the near violence and protest by Act Up helped to accelerate drug development, over what it would have been otherwise? I wonder. And if so, what might be accomplished against cancer, etc., if people acted similarly.

  186. @Jim Christian

    But anyone who thinks venues that were more tolerated thanks to liberation, like the bathhouses, didn’t serve as accelerants is just fooling themselves.
     
    I often wondered after the AIDS thing got rolling how many of the hundreds of thousands of sailors aboard the carriers and other ships that visited African continent cities and countries from Alexandria to Tunis and Senegal in the 70s and 80s for tattoos and sex contributed to the problem once back home. That factor ouldn't have helped but introduce/spread the disease, especially to the wives and girlfriends..

    I believe the first documented case was that of a British sailor in the thirties. I don’t really pay much attention to the whole subject anymore, so that might no longer be true.

  187. @Precious
    Today, AIDS affects several orders of magnitude more people in Africa, which has nothing to do with gay liberation.

    Most of your post is just making excuses, but this is flat out wrong.

    The testing for AIDS in Africa is a joke. Africans know that if they tell Westerners that they have a lot of malaria cases, they get a small trickle of money. But if they tell Westerners they have a lot of AIDS cases, then lots of money gets sent. So they have AIDS instead of the hundreds of other diseases that have been prevalent in Africa since time immemorial.

    The testing for AIDS in Africa is a joke. Africans know that if they tell Westerners that they have a lot of malaria cases, they get a small trickle of money. But if they tell Westerners they have a lot of AIDS cases, then lots of money gets sent. So they have AIDS instead of the hundreds of other diseases that have been prevalent in Africa since time immemorial.

    I wonder how much of it has to do with prostitution. The human vagina is not optimized for sex with 20-30 undesired men per day. Honestly, it hurts just thinking about it. Imagine all the dryness and tearing!

    Also, sadly, there is this:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dry_sex

    • Replies: @dfordoom

    I wonder how much of it has to do with prostitution.
     
    Probably not much.

    Haven't AIDS rates always been surprisingly very low among female prostitutes?

    In Africa you've just got so many unfortunate sexual practices. It's pretty much a perfect storm.
    , @BB753
    Somebody explain to me the appeal of dry sex. On second thought, better not! Here in the West we practice dry spells without sex, not dry sex.
  188. @Nick Diaz
    Steve Sailer:

    "Gay Liberation Caused AIDS"

    First of all, you couldn't care less about the lives of gay men. That is just an excuse from you to jusitify keeping gay men forcefully in the closet so as to not get in the way of your ideal Society of married straight people with kids. *That* is what you really care about.

    Secondly, even if your intention of saving the lives of gay men were genuine(it is not), this is your solution? To baby sit adults and tell them what they can and cannot do with their own lives? Brilliant solution, Sailer. Let's extend your argument. People getting drunk and crashing cars? Either Prohibition or outlawing cars. People dying of drug overdoses? War on drugs. Oh wait, you conservatives already got that for 40 years, and the results are stellar. Not only do people continue to die of drug overdoses, but now we have massive corruption of government agencies, a huge and costly government bureaucracy, prisons full of people at tax payer expensve, and more drugs than ever keep pouring in. People dying of obesity? Let's outlaw cheetos. Or better yet, let's outlaw food altogether since then the problem will be solved for sure. Young men wasting too much of their time and lives masturbating to porn? Outlaw porn, and have them rape women instead. Prostitution spreading infections? Oh way, just outlaw it and have millions of men die as virgins. I mean, only a few thousand will blow up their schools and go on killing sprees, and that's a small price to pay to prevent the spread of clamidea even though just using condoms is far more effective, but conservatives know better with their idiotic moral prejudices!

    'Gay liberation caused AIDS." What a lying, moronic, stupid statement.

    I’d block your comments, but I get a chuckle every time you come around stamping your feet and shaking your finger at our host.

  189. @Paleo Retiree
    I’m an old guy who lived in NYC during the late ‘70s and ‘80s and who hung out in the media and arts worlds — in other words, I lived in AIDS central. I also did a fair amount of reporting about the AIDS crisis for the magazine I worked for. I talked to doctors, researchers, and political people. I had many, many gay friends, some of whom were older (and from whom I learned a lot about what gay life in NYC was like before Gay Lib), and some of whom died of AIDS.

    A few of the things I learned:

    Anal sex wasn’t that common back in the pre Gay Lib days. Pre Gay Lib, gay guys mostly blew each other or jerked each other off. Some of the older gays I knew found gay anal sex distasteful and had never, ever had it.

    Unprotected buttfucking and wildly promiscuous sex were symbolically very important to the GayLib movement. It was part of the whole go-wild, liberation, revolutionary, bad-is-good and good-is-bad ethos of the time. Buttfucking and promiscuity were seen as, no fooling, Civil Rights matters (first struggles, then triumphs) by political gays. Put that drive together with the massive amount of drugs that were around and the result was a lot of incredibly crazy behavior.

    Even before HIV arrived, the ultra-partying gay crowd in the late ‘70s was already riddled with a lot of illness, which is part of what made them vulnerable to the HIV virus (which, contrary to what many of us have been told, is generally pretty hard to pass along).

    When scary cancers and unusual infections started cropping up, it took docs and scientists a little while to puzzle things out but pretty soon it was perfectly well understood that unprotected, promiscuous gay buttfucking was the main driver behind the spread of HIV/AIDS.

    The political gays were terrified of two things: 1) that straight mainstream America would turn on them; and 2) that the illness would be dealt with as a typical epidemic. They wanted the p-r benefits of screaming “epidemic,” yes — but they really, really didn’t want infected gays placed in quarantine, which of course would have ended the epidemic within a couple of years. They wanted the whole concept of quarantine to be undiscussable. And they also didn’t want to give up what they saw as their just-recently acquired civil right to promiscuous buttfucking. They weren’t gonna budge on that. So they launched the Safe Sex crusade.

    The strategy of the Safe Sex campaign was: In order to get funding and action and deflect criticism, scare the straights, even though (as Michael Fumento showed) straight America was never going to be much impacted by HIV/AIDS (not promiscuous enough); and in order to maintain the “right” to promiscuity and buttfucking while doing something to moderate the spread of HIV, urge gays to use condoms. The idea that gay guys who were doing a lot of promiscuous buttfucking were being major public health menaces was never to be permitted. Despite the fact that sex is a voluntary act, gays were to be seen as victims only. Life was to go on as it always had, only with condoms, a lot of screaming at the government, and (with luck) eventually some medical advances.

    The political gays who drove the Safe Sex response to the HIV/AIDS crisis were, in other words, responsible for tens if not hundreds of thousands of unnecessary deaths — the crazy but brilliant gay playwright Larry Kramer often made this point — as well as for scaring millions of straight people unnecessarily silly about *their* sex lives.

    Much more, and many graphic details, are in this posting from my old blog:

    http://www.2blowhards.com/archives/2007/02/aids_and_immune.html

    Thank you.

  190. @doxmenot
    From page 131 - 132 of "And the Band Played On" by Randy Shilts, (gay) reporter for the San Francisco Chronicle - "A typical GRID case had sex with 1,100 men in his lifetime...", from research by the CDC from the mid 1980s.

    Who knew this or reported it? I never heard it from any source - until I read the book.
    (GRID, later HIV - AIDS, Gay related immune disorder.) What I heard in college was that gays who got AIDS or HIV were no more promiscuous than straights.

    They refused to tone down their hyper-promiscuous lifestyle despite warnings in the 1980s. Also Stonewall was a mafia operation, which is why it was raided, not homophobia.

  191. @Colin Wright
    ' ...I never knew anybody who even knew someone who knew someone who knew a heterosexual person who got it, much less died of it. It simply didn’t happen, not through sex anyway...'

    Indeed. I wonder what the odds actually are of contracting AIDS if you're not black, not gay, don't use intravenous drugs, and don't have sex with anyone who is in those categories.

    ...I suspect you might as well worry about shark attack.

    If you’re a white or asian heterosexual man, you don’t even show up on the CDC new HIV infections chart. So yes, you might as well worry about a shark attack. I suspect truly straight black men have a fairly low risk as well and they’re just playing loose with the term straight but I could be mistaken

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
    'I suspect truly straight black men have a fairly low risk as well and they’re just playing loose with the term straight but I could be mistaken'

    One wonders. As I mentioned, the AIDS rates in black Africa are literally an order of magnitude higher than they are anywhere else. I'm happy to believe awful things about black behavior -- but it seems to me that a difference like that must have a physiological cause.

    ...or perhaps all the clitorectomies have something to do with it? Here, one could look at groups that don't practice female genital mutilation and see if the rates are radically different.
  192. @doxmenot
    From page 131 - 132 of "And the Band Played On" by Randy Shilts, (gay) reporter for the San Francisco Chronicle - "A typical GRID case had sex with 1,100 men in his lifetime...", from research by the CDC from the mid 1980s.

    Who knew this or reported it? I never heard it from any source - until I read the book.
    (GRID, later HIV - AIDS, Gay related immune disorder.) What I heard in college was that gays who got AIDS or HIV were no more promiscuous than straights.

    Back when in the early 90s, you could still find some college 101 sociology (or other social science textbooks) that would acknowledge the fact that gay men were incredibily promiscuous. I imagine that info is now reserved for grad students.

    Oh, and I don’t trust what gay men say on this issue, only what I’ve observed among gays I know, is that there is no such thing as a monogamous male gay couple.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    You’ve got the odd lesbian bed death case like Mayor Pete.
    , @Anonymous
    I am gay, and I have only had one partner in my life. Reading this thread makes me think it's best to keep it that way.
  193. @jim jones
    People over-estimate how many homos there actually are:

    https://news.gallup.com/poll/259571/americans-greatly-overestimate-gay-population.aspx

    People watch a lot of TV.

    ipso, facto, and all that ….

  194. @Paleo Retiree
    I’m an old guy who lived in NYC during the late ‘70s and ‘80s and who hung out in the media and arts worlds — in other words, I lived in AIDS central. I also did a fair amount of reporting about the AIDS crisis for the magazine I worked for. I talked to doctors, researchers, and political people. I had many, many gay friends, some of whom were older (and from whom I learned a lot about what gay life in NYC was like before Gay Lib), and some of whom died of AIDS.

    A few of the things I learned:

    Anal sex wasn’t that common back in the pre Gay Lib days. Pre Gay Lib, gay guys mostly blew each other or jerked each other off. Some of the older gays I knew found gay anal sex distasteful and had never, ever had it.

    Unprotected buttfucking and wildly promiscuous sex were symbolically very important to the GayLib movement. It was part of the whole go-wild, liberation, revolutionary, bad-is-good and good-is-bad ethos of the time. Buttfucking and promiscuity were seen as, no fooling, Civil Rights matters (first struggles, then triumphs) by political gays. Put that drive together with the massive amount of drugs that were around and the result was a lot of incredibly crazy behavior.

    Even before HIV arrived, the ultra-partying gay crowd in the late ‘70s was already riddled with a lot of illness, which is part of what made them vulnerable to the HIV virus (which, contrary to what many of us have been told, is generally pretty hard to pass along).

    When scary cancers and unusual infections started cropping up, it took docs and scientists a little while to puzzle things out but pretty soon it was perfectly well understood that unprotected, promiscuous gay buttfucking was the main driver behind the spread of HIV/AIDS.

    The political gays were terrified of two things: 1) that straight mainstream America would turn on them; and 2) that the illness would be dealt with as a typical epidemic. They wanted the p-r benefits of screaming “epidemic,” yes — but they really, really didn’t want infected gays placed in quarantine, which of course would have ended the epidemic within a couple of years. They wanted the whole concept of quarantine to be undiscussable. And they also didn’t want to give up what they saw as their just-recently acquired civil right to promiscuous buttfucking. They weren’t gonna budge on that. So they launched the Safe Sex crusade.

    The strategy of the Safe Sex campaign was: In order to get funding and action and deflect criticism, scare the straights, even though (as Michael Fumento showed) straight America was never going to be much impacted by HIV/AIDS (not promiscuous enough); and in order to maintain the “right” to promiscuity and buttfucking while doing something to moderate the spread of HIV, urge gays to use condoms. The idea that gay guys who were doing a lot of promiscuous buttfucking were being major public health menaces was never to be permitted. Despite the fact that sex is a voluntary act, gays were to be seen as victims only. Life was to go on as it always had, only with condoms, a lot of screaming at the government, and (with luck) eventually some medical advances.

    The political gays who drove the Safe Sex response to the HIV/AIDS crisis were, in other words, responsible for tens if not hundreds of thousands of unnecessary deaths — the crazy but brilliant gay playwright Larry Kramer often made this point — as well as for scaring millions of straight people unnecessarily silly about *their* sex lives.

    Much more, and many graphic details, are in this posting from my old blog:

    http://www.2blowhards.com/archives/2007/02/aids_and_immune.html

    Great post. Seem to remember reading years back that butt penetration wasn’t very common until recent decades. Intercrural intercourse (dick between another man’s thighs) was much more practiced. And now I have to figure out why I’m spending so much time looking into homo conduct.

  195. @gcochran
    They are, though. In the US, ~55% of cases

    In the US, ~55% of cases

    I don’t believe that for a second. No … freaking … way. Even now, there are still a lot of closeted gays who won’t cop to having taken it up the poop chute (looking at you, Magic).

    Basically, the suspension of disbelief is similar to this:

  196. @Niccolo Salo
    For those interested:

    I spent some time putting together information that I culled from several sources into a thread on the early days of HIV in San Francisco. You can find it here - https://salo-forum.com/index.php?threads/patient-zero-and-the-early-days-of-hiv-aids.3167/

    The best source, and it's available for free online, is the Standford University Oral History. You get first person interviews with all the key players who were around in those days. Selma Dritz (played by Lili Tomlin in "And the Band Played On") is a particular highlight as she was very, very upfront about what was going on in those days. She constantly battled with the owners of the baths for example even prior to HIV as the various STDs were building and building among San Fran's gay population.

    One of the great crimes of history is that all of her notes containing personal information were thrown in actual fire when she retired to 'protect individuals'. In fact it was an act of historical vandalism with the intent of keeping as much of the behaviours of gays at that time as secret as possible.

    Michael Callen was a singer and was the creator of the first safe-sex for gays pamphlet in the wake of HIV alongside a gay prostitute named Berkowitz (who I think is still somehow alive). Here's an excerpt from Callen (who died in the early 90s) about his own sexual health history:

    "In the Spring of ’81, when the CDC made its first report, I was sick: fevers, night sweats, thrush, weight loss, diarrhea and malaise. The standard tests showed nothing conclusive.

    As it happened, my doctor was Joe Sonnabend–a microbiologist of international repute who had left the research world to go into private practice. He initiated some of the earliest AIDS research using samples provided by me and other patients from his practice. As a result, Dr. Sonnabend was able to tell me as early as December 1981 that I had almost no T-helper cells left and that other blood parameters indicated that I was dangerously immunosuppressed. My results, he warned, were identical to those of his patients who had–or who were soon to develop–PCP and KS.

    The CDC case control study of the first 50 gay men with AIDS found a medium number of lifetime sexual partners of 1,150 and a history of many sexually transmitted diseases. I fit that profile. By the age of 27, I had had an estimated 3,000 sex partners in bathhouses and backrooms. Not coincidentally, I had also been diagnosed with the following diseases: innumerable bouts of gonorrhea of the throat, penis and anus; syphilis; non-specific urethritis; chalymidia; candida albicans; endless episodes of entamoeba histolytica, giardia lamblia; salmonella; shigella; hepatitis A, hepatitis B, and hepatitis non-A, non-B; venereal warts; herpes simplex Types I and II; Epstein-Barr reactivations; repeated cytomegalovirus infections; disseminated varicella zoster (shingles); and finally, cryptosporidiosis and AIDS.

    The question for me upon diagnosis was not so much “Why me” as wonder at how I had I remained standing on two feet so long.

    Although I can understand why most gay activists shudder at the implications, I suspected then–as I continue to suspect–that, bluntly put, a small subset of promiscuous gay men (including myself) unwittingly managed to recreate disease settings equivalent to those of poor third world nations and junkies.

    So, in December of 1981, I had reason to be very frightened. Dr. Sonnabend was blunt: he told me that if I didn’t stop practicing what was to become known as “unsafe sex”–if I continued to barrage my immune system with sexually transmitted infections–I might well die.

    If there had been such a term, I would in early 1982 have been diagnosed with ARC–AIDS related complex. At the time, the very namelessness of the condition compounded the terror.

    I continued to lose weight–to sleep 12 or 14 hours–to vomit up my food. And I had bloody diarrhea 8 to 10 times a day. In June of 1982, I collapsed in my home from dehydration and was taken to the emergency room with a 104 degree fever by Dr. Sonnabend’s physician’s assistant.

    During that hospitalization–my first in a series–they finally diagnosed my problem as cryptosporidiosis–a parasite which, in the cryptic words of the hospital doctor, had been “previously found only in livestock.”

    Cryptosporidiosis–which we PWAs refer to as “crypto”–is one of the diseases which qualifies one for an official diagnosis of AIDS. When a very handsome intern asked me a lot of questions about my sexual history, indicating that he needed the information to fill out an “AIDS report form,” I had the first frightening sense of being a statistic. I knew that the odds of survival were very small.

    I had a mixed reaction to my diagnosis: on the one hand, I was relieved to finally know what had been making me so sick for so long; on the other hand, being told I had AIDS and that my opportunistic infection was untreatable was devastating."

    The rest you can read here - http://michaelcallen.com/mikes-writing/life-in-the-reagan-aidies/

    He had reached a point where every sexual contact he was making would involve him getting a new STD. By 1979 gay men in NYC, San Francisco, and LA (particularly West Hollywood and Silver Lake) were walking biohazards.

    The joke was "you go to an STD clinic to get a shot and a date".

    The con job/propaganda that Gay Activists pulled on the USA in the 1980s was impressive. As it fed into others spheres of life it has turned into a Frankenstein, best exemplified by having a whole month dedicated to celebrations of gay lifestyle and the coercion used by the USA against foreign countries to also allow this celebration to be as public as possible in their own countries.

    I had also been diagnosed with the following diseases: innumerable bouts of gonorrhea of the throat, penis and anus; syphilis; non-specific urethritis; chalymidia; candida albicans; endless episodes of entamoeba histolytica, giardia lamblia; salmonella; shigella; hepatitis A, hepatitis B, and hepatitis non-A, non-B; venereal warts; herpes simplex Types I and II; Epstein-Barr reactivations; repeated cytomegalovirus infections; disseminated varicella zoster (shingles); and finally, cryptosporidiosis and AIDS.

    Holy shit!

    I should be glad that just “my elbow hurts when I do this”.*

    BTW, for readers, that was from Mr. Salo’s excerpt, not his own words!

    .

    * I know, I know, I already made out a check for the $135 copay to have the Doc tell me “Don’t do that.”

  197. Google won’t let you search for ANYTHING negative about homosexuality. Even if it’s more of a scientific or intellectual search and not necessarily mean-spirited. I’ve tried many times to earnestly find mentions of certain questions and opinions and have never found anything but pro-gay propaganda.

    Usually they’ll send back links to pages or message boards that discuss why it’s wrong in the first place to even be asking that particular question or a Daily Beast or Huffpo or whatever link about “hateful questions” etc etc. But you’ll never get a link to a non-gay friendly site or honest discussion, much less an alt-right or realist website. Never.

    The main effect of this is to suppress information but an important secondary effect is that it can ostracize the questioner and make him feel like he’s all alone asking these forbidden questions so maybe there is something wrong with him for thinking so outside of the box.

    Google will argue that “the algorithm” is sending those results because the pro-gay sites are much more popular and everything is based off of hit rate, but that explanation doesn’t match up with a political culture that’s still very close to 50/50 and when you know there are anti-gay discussions out there that could be linked to but aren’t. These search reports are being purposely repressed and ignored, not just overlooked because they are insignificant.

    It’s very very insidious.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    If you want world peace and don’t want a population explosion you’ve got to replace war deaths somehow. Thus was the Poz born and thus does it propagate.
    , @Anonymous
    For things like this you should use several search engines together not just one.
  198. On the bright side, Gulag doesn’t even pretend anymore.

    Still, premature. A miscalculation.

    • Replies: @Jim bob Lassiter
    "Still, premature. A miscalculation."

    Is there a proper literary device term for that little nugget of wordsmithing?
  199. @Coag
    Absolutely outlaw, if scientifically sound. Your hysterics about banning porn and banning cheetos have nothing to do with anything.

    The shutting down of the bathhouses and orgy sites was a no-brainer. One of the smart decisions they made early on in the epidemic was the blanket ban on gays donating blood. The decision was statistically, scientifically, and ethically sound. AIDS-infected gays donating and selling blood and subsequently infecting thousands of innocent people including the horrific holocaust of hemophiliacs is one of the unsung heartwrenching tragedies that stemmed from gay liberation.

    Also please read through all the comments in the thread, many made by first hand chroniclers and journalists of the AIDS epidemic, that show that, indeed, gay liberation ignited the deadliest and most dramatic plague of our lifetime.


    First of all, you couldn’t care less about the lives of gay men. That is just an excuse from you to jusitify keeping gay men forcefully in the closet so as to not get in the way of your ideal Society of married straight people with kids.
     
    Whether gay or straight, the dangerous ethos of wanton promsicuity should absolutely be a taboo. As a parent who doesn't want his kids exposed to this warped ethos, I can say it with absolute conviction and I reject any excuse you yourself come up with that justifies your own "ideal society". You obviously couldn't care less about the lives of traditional families with kids.

    Gays have an important and inalienable role in society. As LePen accurately observed, gays are like salt in soup -- too little salt and the soup is bland and unpalatable, too much salt and the soup is also ruined.

    As LePen accurately observed, gays are like salt in soup — too little salt and the soup is bland and unpalatable, too much salt and the soup is also ruined.

    If you’re just talking about society in general, I suppose that’s a reasonable thing to say. As for the sexual aspect, let me tell you, Frenchie, I’d rather have high blood pressure than a ____ up my ass.

  200. @Paleo Liberal
    Kids do best with a loving mother and a loving father who love each other as well.

    Unfortunately that is not always the case. In far too may cases there are divorces. In far too many cases there are abusive parents. In those cases we hope for, and try to legally allow, the best possible situation in what may be a collection of bad options.

    One of the reasons I am in favor of gay marriage is because some gays will raise families. Two loving mothers or two loving fathers may not be the ideal case, but it is vastly preferable to a single parent and whoever is staying over that night.

    Reproduction is a human right. We can’t and should not stop it. What we can do is allow for the best possible situation under the circumstances to be legally sanctioned.

    One of the reasons I am in favor of gay marriage is because some gays will raise families.

    That’s precisely the reason you should oppose homosexual marriage. The risks of children being psychologically screwed up are just way too high. Especially with lesbian parents. And don’t forget the incredibly high rates of lesbian domestic violence – not a good environment for child-rearing.

    • Agree: Desiderius
    • Replies: @Ris_Eruwaedhiel
    There is a very high rate of violence among male gay couples, too. I am concerned about a young boy being around the strange men his daddies bring home.


    On top of that, male gay "marriage" tends to be short-lived, too.

    , @Pericles
    Lesbians, eh? That reminds me: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5569973/Lesbian-couple-plunged-cliff-fled-home-targeted-KKK.html

    Two white lesbians with six adopted POC children drive off cliff on Pacific Coast Highway, no survivors. KKK in Minnesota somehow to blame.
  201. @Peter Akuleyev
    But somehow most gay/bi rock stars of the 1970s did not/have not die(d) of AIDS - Elton John, Rob Halford, Bowie, George Michael, etc. George Michael's boyfriend died of AIDS, but somehow George never got infected? There may still be a lot about HIV that is not being explained correctly.

    Who says that George Michael never got infected? He was entering the age where the HIV medications take a severe toll on your body, such as hunchbacks forming or organs shutting down. In the months prior to his death George Michael was ballooning in weight.

    The toxicity of the various HIV cocktails starts to greatly impact the men who have been on them for decades as they enter their early to mid 50s. Their bodies start breaking down.

  202. @Rosie

    The testing for AIDS in Africa is a joke. Africans know that if they tell Westerners that they have a lot of malaria cases, they get a small trickle of money. But if they tell Westerners they have a lot of AIDS cases, then lots of money gets sent. So they have AIDS instead of the hundreds of other diseases that have been prevalent in Africa since time immemorial.
     
    I wonder how much of it has to do with prostitution. The human vagina is not optimized for sex with 20-30 undesired men per day. Honestly, it hurts just thinking about it. Imagine all the dryness and tearing!

    Also, sadly, there is this:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dry_sex

    I wonder how much of it has to do with prostitution.

    Probably not much.

    Haven’t AIDS rates always been surprisingly very low among female prostitutes?

    In Africa you’ve just got so many unfortunate sexual practices. It’s pretty much a perfect storm.

    • Replies: @Rosie

    Haven’t AIDS rates always been surprisingly very low among female prostitutes?
     
    No. HIV is rife among prostitutes in Asia. For example...

    https://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/journal.pmed.0020216
    , @Jonathan Silber
    In Africa you've just got so many unfortunate sexual practices. It's pretty much a perfect storm.

    And that storm is now headed our way.
  203. @Nick Diaz
    Steve Sailer:

    "Gay Liberation Caused AIDS"

    First of all, you couldn't care less about the lives of gay men. That is just an excuse from you to jusitify keeping gay men forcefully in the closet so as to not get in the way of your ideal Society of married straight people with kids. *That* is what you really care about.

    Secondly, even if your intention of saving the lives of gay men were genuine(it is not), this is your solution? To baby sit adults and tell them what they can and cannot do with their own lives? Brilliant solution, Sailer. Let's extend your argument. People getting drunk and crashing cars? Either Prohibition or outlawing cars. People dying of drug overdoses? War on drugs. Oh wait, you conservatives already got that for 40 years, and the results are stellar. Not only do people continue to die of drug overdoses, but now we have massive corruption of government agencies, a huge and costly government bureaucracy, prisons full of people at tax payer expensve, and more drugs than ever keep pouring in. People dying of obesity? Let's outlaw cheetos. Or better yet, let's outlaw food altogether since then the problem will be solved for sure. Young men wasting too much of their time and lives masturbating to porn? Outlaw porn, and have them rape women instead. Prostitution spreading infections? Oh way, just outlaw it and have millions of men die as virgins. I mean, only a few thousand will blow up their schools and go on killing sprees, and that's a small price to pay to prevent the spread of clamidea even though just using condoms is far more effective, but conservatives know better with their idiotic moral prejudices!

    'Gay liberation caused AIDS." What a lying, moronic, stupid statement.

    First of all, you couldn’t care less about the lives of gay men. That is just an excuse from you to jusitify keeping gay men forcefully in the closet so as to not get in the way of your ideal Society of married straight people with kids.

    Minor correction, we just want a functioning, sane society, not an ideal one. We can’t get that until you nutjobs are back in the closet.

  204. Anonymous[406] • Disclaimer says:
    @Veracitor
    Gay liberation led to AIDS, then...

    AIDS led directly to gay marriage.

    The chief motivation for the gay marriage movement which arose in the 1980’s was to enable AIDS sufferers to tap the employment-based health insurance policies of their homosexual partners. This was a serious thing. Gay men with AIDS would get too sick to work and lose their own health insurance, then they would be too poor to afford all the costly medical care they needed. They looked around and saw that when straight husbands or wives got too sick to work they would often remain insured under their spouses’ plans. The gays wanted the same arrangement.

    At first this was the main organizing point of the gay marriage movement, complete with media profiles of sympathetic gay couples, one sick, the other still in pretty good shape. However, the financial motive seemed a little crass. Worse, forcing employers’ health-insurance plans to take on gay spouses who were already sick with a very costly disease (in those days before antivirals) was a type of “pre-existing condition” problem— suddenly having to pay for unexpected AIDS victims meant reducing benefits for all other workers and their families. (Insurance rates had been set to cover gay workers getting sick just like straight workers, but not to cover unexpected “gay spouses.”)

    The gay marriage movement wasn’t stupid. Soon it soft-pedaled the whole insurance thing; started to emphasize the intense social longing of gays to marry and live monogamous lives of mutual devotion; claimed that AIDS was caused by the lack of gay marriage which virtually forced gays into promiscuity; asserted that failure to offer marriage licenses to gay couples was exactly the same thing as denying them to interracial straight couples; and finally, with some justice, complained that without gay marriage to give them legal power some gays were frozen out of final care decisions and funeral arrangements for their AIDS-afflicted partners by the aging parents of those partners who resented the fact that homosexual acquaintances had killed their sons by infecting them with AIDS.

    The first- and second-phase gay marriage movement won enough public (or at least political) sympathy to obtain “domestic partner” laws which delivered the “spousal” health insurance and legal privileges. However, when antiviral drugs softened the AIDS disaster so much that it ceased to worry gays, much less the general public, the leaders of the gay-marriage movement were not prepared to give up a good gig. They decided “domestic partner” status was not as dignified as (straight) marriage. Worse, they decided that since they had whipped AIDS (not true, of course; mostly-straight medical researchers had done that) they could whip “homophobia” too— force recalcitrant straights not just to tolerate homosexuals and pay to treat their STD’s, but to endorse gayness under pain of legal punishment for any lack of enthusiasm. So the movement for “gay marriage” became the movement for gay marriage, not “undignified” domestic-partnership, of which the whole point was to destroy the free-speech rights of “homophobes” since the practical demands that first animated the movement had all been won already.

    Right. Follow the money. Always.

  205. @Paleo Liberal
    To be precise, reusing needles cannot cause a disease to exist. It can spread a disease.

    One hypothesis is that sloppy practice in the massive smallpox vaccination campaign inadvertently spread AIDS around Africa. That was combined with the massive increase in long haul trucking . Lots of prostitution at truck stops in Africa. A long-haul trucker with AIDS could spread the disease from truck stop to truck stop, while the prostitutes spread AIDS from trucker to trucker within each truck stop.

    Dr. Peter Duesberg, a modern day Galileo, is a professor of molecular biology at UC Berkeley and an expert on retroviruses.

    https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1991-05-21-vw-2451-story,amp.html

    He authored an excellent book in 1996 called Inventing the AIDS Virus. Prior to that he wrote a paper in ‘91 or ‘92 that was published in The Heritage Foundation magazine (which I can no longer find the link to) that argued the AIDS retrovirus was just a marker and could not be responsible for the the death of anyone who had it. Here is a link to a similar article in ‘95.

    https://www.the-scientist.com/opinion-old/duesberg-on-aids-causation-the-culprit-is-noncontagious-risk-factors-58592/amp

    If I recall Dr. Duesberg correctly, one thing he stated was that the AIDS virus violates Koch’s Postulates on infectious diseases. Here is his old website that is still (miraculously) online. https://www.duesberg.com/

    Anyway, Dr. Duesberg’s lab was defunded and he no longer studies retroviruses for his sins against the High Church of Globohomoism.

    • Replies: @Gordo
    Dr. Duesberg was repeatedly asked to inject himself with a purified sample of HIV, and always refused.

    Enough said about that chap.
    , @gcochran
    Duesberg was, and is, a loon.
    , @Coag
    Is the modern day Galileo confident enough to test HIV with Koch’s postulates in himself?
  206. @Peter Akuleyev
    But somehow most gay/bi rock stars of the 1970s did not/have not die(d) of AIDS - Elton John, Rob Halford, Bowie, George Michael, etc. George Michael's boyfriend died of AIDS, but somehow George never got infected? There may still be a lot about HIV that is not being explained correctly.

    There may still be a lot about HIV that is not being explained correctly.

    Things that sneak up on you from behind:

    In 1978–1981, the CDC conducted a hepatitis B vaccine experiment on homosexual men living in New York City, San Francisco and Los Angeles. HIV/AIDS was first detected among the participants in the CDC hepatitis B vaccine trial and quickly spread throughout the gay community in those cities. […]

    Dissidents who have studied the available published data are convinced that this ill-conceived experiment precipitated the devastating AIDS epidemic in America’s homosexual community. The gay men in the experiment were injected with a vaccine that had been made using human hepatitis B infected blood which was injected into chimpanzees known to be infected with the cancer causing simian virus 40 (SV40); the virus that had contaminated the polio vaccine.

    Before these CDC experiments there were no reported cases of HIV or AIDS in America. The AIDS epidemic was officially declared by CDC in 1981, at the conclusion of the experiment. Yet, in the NEJM published report (1980) researchers proclaimed the vaccine “safe and incidence of side effects low,” and claimed a 96% success rate. They failed to mention the emergence of a new disease affecting some of the subjects.

    1978–1981: Is HIV-AIDS linked to CDC’s Hepatitis B Vaccine Experiment?

    After AIDS began to spread, there was an effort in the MSM to “democratize” AIDS so that heterosexuals could feel at risk too, and indeed some probably were who engaged in various “risky behaviors” with bisexual men, drug addicts, and their partners.

  207. “We sometimes forget how that farce ripped us apart and exacerbated the other insanities to which you (correctly) allude . . .”

    Save that allusion would be incorrect. It was nit the Vietnam conflict/war. it was the careless rhetoric used to describe what it was about and which party were the aggressors and the aggressors in every way were the North Vietnamese and their supporters.

    I think the death tolls for the Vietnamese on both sides were higher. But the turn was not on the battlefield or the country but in the academic classroom of the US and of course the already fracturing US identity and loyalty to the same.

  208. @JR Ewing
    Google won't let you search for ANYTHING negative about homosexuality. Even if it's more of a scientific or intellectual search and not necessarily mean-spirited. I've tried many times to earnestly find mentions of certain questions and opinions and have never found anything but pro-gay propaganda.

    Usually they'll send back links to pages or message boards that discuss why it's wrong in the first place to even be asking that particular question or a Daily Beast or Huffpo or whatever link about "hateful questions" etc etc. But you'll never get a link to a non-gay friendly site or honest discussion, much less an alt-right or realist website. Never.

    The main effect of this is to suppress information but an important secondary effect is that it can ostracize the questioner and make him feel like he's all alone asking these forbidden questions so maybe there is something wrong with him for thinking so outside of the box.

    Google will argue that "the algorithm" is sending those results because the pro-gay sites are much more popular and everything is based off of hit rate, but that explanation doesn't match up with a political culture that's still very close to 50/50 and when you know there are anti-gay discussions out there that could be linked to but aren't. These search reports are being purposely repressed and ignored, not just overlooked because they are insignificant.

    It's very very insidious.

    If you want world peace and don’t want a population explosion you’ve got to replace war deaths somehow. Thus was the Poz born and thus does it propagate.

  209. @South Texas Guy
    Back when in the early 90s, you could still find some college 101 sociology (or other social science textbooks) that would acknowledge the fact that gay men were incredibily promiscuous. I imagine that info is now reserved for grad students.

    Oh, and I don't trust what gay men say on this issue, only what I've observed among gays I know, is that there is no such thing as a monogamous male gay couple.

    You’ve got the odd lesbian bed death case like Mayor Pete.

  210. If one takes a look at the specifics of the Stonewall incident, one will find that the issue was not really same sex relations, but economic. The local pub which catered to the community was influenced if not owned and operated by the local “mafia”. The management made a decision to discourage those who chose same sex expression. In response some who so engaged opened a pub of their own. As it became popular it drained away some business. The new establishment seeking to stay as low key as possible operated without a license or liquor license a process that operated as a small cash cow on its own. They also catered to minors.

    In a bid to limit competition they older established management ratted the new comers out and upon investigation, it turned out they did not have a liquor license and they did cater to minors — against the law regardless of who one engaged in square dancing with. They were shit down. Instead of filing suit for the unfair barriers in getting a liquor license and thereby breaking the monopoly, the liberals (nothing new here) started a violent protest. Unlike the case for blacks where the community responded to the government engaged in violence as extreme as murder against them. The crowd in Stonewall went off the rails over liquor license and selling alcohol to minors.

    And in keeping with agitating and false advertising they billed the incident as a political protest over same gender relations as opposed to the emotional knee jerk reaction it was and remains.

  211. @Hypnotoad666
    I think the politically correct response to AIDS was just another manifestation of the constant that is progressive thinking.

    The progressive mind seems to always focus on symbolism, narratives, and virtue signalling at the expense of reality.

    So all the progressive effort was put into "destigmatizing" AIDS victims and treating the disease as a civil rights issue. They didn't worry so much, however, about taking the actual steps necessary to minimize the death toll.

    If the disease, by contrast, had struck only, say, little girls, we would have imposed an emergency quarantine or whatever other steps were required to save all lives possible. But progressivism always elevate symbolism over results.

    We're just lucky the scientists came through in relatively short order. Or who knows what the death toll would have been.

    “We’re just lucky the scientists came through in relatively short order. Or who knows what the death toll would have been.”

    As Stalin would say, that depends on just who is lucky and who is luckless.

    And speaking of scientists, I wonder just what the diversity breakdown was in the ranks of the scientists who pursued AIDs research.

  212. I wonder how much of it has to do with prostitution. The human vagina is not optimized for sex with 20-30 undesired men per day. Honestly, it hurts just thinking about it. Imagine all the dryness and tearing!

    20 to 30 men per day? I have a few sex worker friends (let’s not go into how that might’ve happened for right now), and I’d say you’re over by a factor of at least 15X on those numbers. The ladies I know have a few appointments a week. Because of this level of business, they typically have “straight” jobs as well, in order to pay bills, feed and clothe kids, etc.

    The “undesired” part is fully accurate. But there is such a thing as lube, and they use it as needed.

    • Replies: @Olorin
    I was told that in the NYC sex clubs of the 1970s and 1980s where both men and women went for all manner of orgiastic encounters, one had to step carefully because of the thick slippery film on the floor.

    Unable to wrap my square brain around this, I asked, and was told that these clubs had restaurant-supply-house-sized vats of Crisco around the room(s). One would, I was given to understand, scoop up a dollop preparatory to enlubenate said parts as one moved through said room(s).

    I cannot imagine that these enlubenating practices were any healthier than "dry sex."

    We're talking about people so depraved in their search for the next, and next more intense, loinal tickle that they revert evolutionarily to being swamps. Except that the ur-swamp that assembled life on earth didn't have the sort of species-ecology interactions we're talking about here.

    We are talking about population-sized petri dishes, periodically treated with pharmaceuticals that select for the most robust .001% of microbes, then sent out to interact, cross-infect, amplify, re-select, etc.

    It can't go well, it hasn't gone well, and while we can't put the toothpaste back in the tube, it's well past time that this whole set of issues gets rethought. The cost of Gay to humanity at large is unfathomable, in terms of lives lost, health impaired, and countless trillions spent on things that could just as easily have been avoided with behavioral changes.

    Of course Big Pharma and the NGOs prefer that circulation of trillion$ to the cheap or free approach. After all, every HIV-drug administered, every "PWA" hospital stay, every STD treated--it all contributes to Pharma's profits and the GDP.

    Staying healthy with intelligence and self restraint? Piffle! Don't make no money off that, white man.
  213. @Paleo Liberal
    Kids do best with a loving mother and a loving father who love each other as well.

    Unfortunately that is not always the case. In far too may cases there are divorces. In far too many cases there are abusive parents. In those cases we hope for, and try to legally allow, the best possible situation in what may be a collection of bad options.

    One of the reasons I am in favor of gay marriage is because some gays will raise families. Two loving mothers or two loving fathers may not be the ideal case, but it is vastly preferable to a single parent and whoever is staying over that night.

    Reproduction is a human right. We can’t and should not stop it. What we can do is allow for the best possible situation under the circumstances to be legally sanctioned.

    It is wrong to bring a child into the world intentionally bereft of a parent, whether mother or father.

    Finis.

  214. @BigDickNick
    white supremacy definitely causes people to put condom free dicks up their butts. It's one of the most well known built in features of white supremacy.

    It lends an entirely new meaning to the age-old complaint of “getting sctewed over by The Man.”

  215. @dfordoom

    I wonder how much of it has to do with prostitution.
     
    Probably not much.

    Haven't AIDS rates always been surprisingly very low among female prostitutes?

    In Africa you've just got so many unfortunate sexual practices. It's pretty much a perfect storm.

    Haven’t AIDS rates always been surprisingly very low among female prostitutes?

    No. HIV is rife among prostitutes in Asia. For example…

    https://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/journal.pmed.0020216

  216. @Mark P Miller
    On the bright side, Gulag doesn't even pretend anymore.

    Still, premature. A miscalculation.

    “Still, premature. A miscalculation.”

    Is there a proper literary device term for that little nugget of wordsmithing?

  217. “We were still having sex in the decades prior, FYI. I’d encourage you to read ‘And the Band Played On’ by Randy Shilts, one of the definitive texts on the early days of the AIDS epidemic.”

    And its a complete indict of the community’s refusal to respond to the fact that the HIV was transmitted via unprotected relations. The community refused to shut down or even warn bath houses etc.

    As the nexus point of the spread, they clearly are the responsible party in aggravating the same. And do be honest very few people were terminated for engaging in this behavior even if said people were suspected or known to do so. As for arrests, those arrests were for engaging relational behavior in public spaces and soliciting the same.

    Arrested alongside prostitutes, drug dealers etc.,

  218. This Tom Bethell article from 2000 is pretty definitive about how the AIDS “crisis” in Africa was invented by that old Leftist standby: moving the goal posts. Short version: they defined a simple cluster of common African symptoms — “prolonged fevers (for a month or more), weight loss of 10 percent or greater, and prolonged diarrhea” — as “AIDS,” without actually giving an HIV test.

    Add some laughable extrapolations to the mix, and you’ve got your “crisis,” delivered on demand, just like they wanted it. Really, read this:

    https://www.virusmyth.com/aids/hiv/tbafrica.htm

    • Replies: @gcochran
    Nonsense.
  219. @TheMediumIsTheMassage
    Steve, please don't jump the shark. You know better than this. AIDS was caused by a great multitude of factors, not gays being able to somewhat live their lives without having to hide in fear of being thrown in jail/fired/etc in the 70s. We were still having sex in the decades prior, FYI. I'd encourage you to read 'And the Band Played On' by Randy Shilts, one of the definitive texts on the early days of the AIDS epidemic. The faults of many gay community leaders, bathhouse owners, etc. are laid bare in that book, but it's far more than just them. The government and medical institutions failed to respond; the media failed to report on the topic, pressure the government for funds, and help deliver public health warnings; blood banks refused to heed warnings from scientists.

    If it had been treated the way Legionnaire's Disease was a few years prior, the number of victims would have been enormously reduced, but it was essentially allowed to spread unchecked until the mid to late 80s. Gay community activists who put sexual liberation first and protested against bathhouse closure and widespread, direct public health campaigns are certainly to blame as well, but they were also operating from a place of (understandable) deep mistrust towards the government.

    At any rate, AIDS would have spread even if there hadn't been any gay liberation because of African immigrants and intravenous drug users, in whom the spread of the disease was entirely separate from the gay community rooted in New York and San Francisco in the early 80s. The first cases in many European countries, for example, were in African immigrants. The disease was coming to America and the rest of the world no matter what. The long latent period of the virus (over 5 years on average) and the fact that the world was already quite globalized with constant air travel ensured that.

    Today, AIDS affects several orders of magnitude more people in Africa, which has nothing to do with gay liberation.

    Around 1987 or so I was the lead epidemiologist/modeler on a team that was developing a model to forecast the ultimate cost of AIDS/HIV to the federal health care system. Based on that experience, I have several observations.

    First, the paucity of data available even then made it difficult to determine exactly what was going on. The insanely stupid privacy considerations still active today made it difficult to collect or obtain useful epidemiological data.

    Second, homosexual activists, then and now, are responsible for this.

    Third, homosexual activists were then still promoting the idea that AIDS/HIV was a disease to which all were susceptible and which sooner or later was going to spread throughout the population. The most widely used and publicized models of the spread of AIDS, in use at that time, adopted this idea and used a simple logistic model to predict the course of the disease. The numbers thus generated were ridiculously large and obviously of no predictive value. Yet these were used as official projections and estimates to promulgate the propaganda of homosexual activists.

    We developed a very different model based on two fundamental ideas:

    (1) AIDS/HIV was a slow virus and at the population level its spread was best modeled by some type of convolution equation, like a Lotka-Volterra Equation. In simpler terms, in individuals the course of the disease from infection, to onset of full blown symptoms, to death occurred over many years and this was reflected at the population level.

    (2) The spread of AIDS occurred in different ways and at different speeds in different populations, e.g., homosexuals, injection drug users, bisexuals, and the rest of the population. There would be very limited transmission across these different populations and essentially none into the general population.

    Our model predicted orders of magnitude less future HIV/AIDS infections, symptomatic cases, and deaths than the logistic models being used at the time. It was ignored and our federal contract officer wasn’t pleased. Several years later the same officer informed us that he had gotten kudos when the projections of our model forward to that time were orders of magnitude more correct than the older logistic models. The software we had created was quietly adopted for future projections.

    This was my last work on AIDS/HIV. I’ve no idea how things have progressed since then. However, I still remember being amazed at how successfully the homosexual lobby was at obscuring the fundamental relation between homosexual behavior and AIDS, and this despite the further havoc such obscurantism wreaked within the broader homosexual community.

  220. @Niccolo Salo
    For those interested:

    I spent some time putting together information that I culled from several sources into a thread on the early days of HIV in San Francisco. You can find it here - https://salo-forum.com/index.php?threads/patient-zero-and-the-early-days-of-hiv-aids.3167/

    The best source, and it's available for free online, is the Standford University Oral History. You get first person interviews with all the key players who were around in those days. Selma Dritz (played by Lili Tomlin in "And the Band Played On") is a particular highlight as she was very, very upfront about what was going on in those days. She constantly battled with the owners of the baths for example even prior to HIV as the various STDs were building and building among San Fran's gay population.

    One of the great crimes of history is that all of her notes containing personal information were thrown in actual fire when she retired to 'protect individuals'. In fact it was an act of historical vandalism with the intent of keeping as much of the behaviours of gays at that time as secret as possible.

    Michael Callen was a singer and was the creator of the first safe-sex for gays pamphlet in the wake of HIV alongside a gay prostitute named Berkowitz (who I think is still somehow alive). Here's an excerpt from Callen (who died in the early 90s) about his own sexual health history:

    "In the Spring of ’81, when the CDC made its first report, I was sick: fevers, night sweats, thrush, weight loss, diarrhea and malaise. The standard tests showed nothing conclusive.

    As it happened, my doctor was Joe Sonnabend–a microbiologist of international repute who had left the research world to go into private practice. He initiated some of the earliest AIDS research using samples provided by me and other patients from his practice. As a result, Dr. Sonnabend was able to tell me as early as December 1981 that I had almost no T-helper cells left and that other blood parameters indicated that I was dangerously immunosuppressed. My results, he warned, were identical to those of his patients who had–or who were soon to develop–PCP and KS.

    The CDC case control study of the first 50 gay men with AIDS found a medium number of lifetime sexual partners of 1,150 and a history of many sexually transmitted diseases. I fit that profile. By the age of 27, I had had an estimated 3,000 sex partners in bathhouses and backrooms. Not coincidentally, I had also been diagnosed with the following diseases: innumerable bouts of gonorrhea of the throat, penis and anus; syphilis; non-specific urethritis; chalymidia; candida albicans; endless episodes of entamoeba histolytica, giardia lamblia; salmonella; shigella; hepatitis A, hepatitis B, and hepatitis non-A, non-B; venereal warts; herpes simplex Types I and II; Epstein-Barr reactivations; repeated cytomegalovirus infections; disseminated varicella zoster (shingles); and finally, cryptosporidiosis and AIDS.

    The question for me upon diagnosis was not so much “Why me” as wonder at how I had I remained standing on two feet so long.

    Although I can understand why most gay activists shudder at the implications, I suspected then–as I continue to suspect–that, bluntly put, a small subset of promiscuous gay men (including myself) unwittingly managed to recreate disease settings equivalent to those of poor third world nations and junkies.

    So, in December of 1981, I had reason to be very frightened. Dr. Sonnabend was blunt: he told me that if I didn’t stop practicing what was to become known as “unsafe sex”–if I continued to barrage my immune system with sexually transmitted infections–I might well die.

    If there had been such a term, I would in early 1982 have been diagnosed with ARC–AIDS related complex. At the time, the very namelessness of the condition compounded the terror.

    I continued to lose weight–to sleep 12 or 14 hours–to vomit up my food. And I had bloody diarrhea 8 to 10 times a day. In June of 1982, I collapsed in my home from dehydration and was taken to the emergency room with a 104 degree fever by Dr. Sonnabend’s physician’s assistant.

    During that hospitalization–my first in a series–they finally diagnosed my problem as cryptosporidiosis–a parasite which, in the cryptic words of the hospital doctor, had been “previously found only in livestock.”

    Cryptosporidiosis–which we PWAs refer to as “crypto”–is one of the diseases which qualifies one for an official diagnosis of AIDS. When a very handsome intern asked me a lot of questions about my sexual history, indicating that he needed the information to fill out an “AIDS report form,” I had the first frightening sense of being a statistic. I knew that the odds of survival were very small.

    I had a mixed reaction to my diagnosis: on the one hand, I was relieved to finally know what had been making me so sick for so long; on the other hand, being told I had AIDS and that my opportunistic infection was untreatable was devastating."

    The rest you can read here - http://michaelcallen.com/mikes-writing/life-in-the-reagan-aidies/

    He had reached a point where every sexual contact he was making would involve him getting a new STD. By 1979 gay men in NYC, San Francisco, and LA (particularly West Hollywood and Silver Lake) were walking biohazards.

    The joke was "you go to an STD clinic to get a shot and a date".

    The con job/propaganda that Gay Activists pulled on the USA in the 1980s was impressive. As it fed into others spheres of life it has turned into a Frankenstein, best exemplified by having a whole month dedicated to celebrations of gay lifestyle and the coercion used by the USA against foreign countries to also allow this celebration to be as public as possible in their own countries.

    It should be noted that Callen was effectively blacklisted by the gay community for having the gall to point out risky behaviors.
    Callen visited NY bathhouses in mid 80’s when AIDS was well known, and found that the risky behaviors were still taking place and that warning posters that he had advocated were not only ignored but actively suppressed by the leadership in the gay community. The way he describes it, sodomy was liberation, sodomy was revolution – any attempt to restrict the revolution immediately made you an outcast.

  221. CCZ says:
    @Clifford Brown
    On the plus side, the subways this weekend in New York worked. Gay Pride makes the trains run on time.

    For about the last eight years or more, subway service in New York on weekends is subject to confusing and maddening restrictions due to ever constant "repair" that is never done or improved. I had several errands to run this weekend and with great reservation checked the MTA Weekender App to see what lines would be shut down. But lo!, like a gift from God On High... ALL LINES WERE FULLY OPERATIONAL THIS WEEKEND IN HONOR OF PRIDE WEEKEND. I was ecstatic. I'm sure MTA workers were being paid double time in order to work the Gay Pride holiday, but who cares.

    I would accept a "Gay Pride Century" if it meant the subway was half way functional on a weekend. I am a man of humble needs.

    Speaking of The Gay, Diana Ross concert in Central Park. Near the end of the clip, Ms. Ross cajoles the various hooligans that invaded Central Park and were mugging her poor fans. This would not happen today. Somethings have improved. This should be acknowledged.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXWDwVY-270

    But for west of the Hudson homosexuals: “A problem at a main-line rail bridge in Newark led to big slowdowns Sunday by NJ Transit and Amtrak, delaying many who planned to participate in the massive Pride Parade marches through New York City. Trains were running on a 30-minute delay in and out of New York Penn Station due to “track issues” on the Amtrak Dock Bridge in Newark, a NJ Transit spokeswoman reported.”

    Homosexuals took to Twitter to vehemently demand: “Stop doing the gays dirty. You knew it was world pride today.”

    • Replies: @Lurker
    A school joke I remember when AIDS first got fashionable.

    Q: How did AIDS get into America?

    A: Up the Hudson.
  222. anon[324] • Disclaimer says:
    @Paleo Retiree
    I’m an old guy who lived in NYC during the late ‘70s and ‘80s and who hung out in the media and arts worlds — in other words, I lived in AIDS central. I also did a fair amount of reporting about the AIDS crisis for the magazine I worked for. I talked to doctors, researchers, and political people. I had many, many gay friends, some of whom were older (and from whom I learned a lot about what gay life in NYC was like before Gay Lib), and some of whom died of AIDS.

    A few of the things I learned:

    Anal sex wasn’t that common back in the pre Gay Lib days. Pre Gay Lib, gay guys mostly blew each other or jerked each other off. Some of the older gays I knew found gay anal sex distasteful and had never, ever had it.

    Unprotected buttfucking and wildly promiscuous sex were symbolically very important to the GayLib movement. It was part of the whole go-wild, liberation, revolutionary, bad-is-good and good-is-bad ethos of the time. Buttfucking and promiscuity were seen as, no fooling, Civil Rights matters (first struggles, then triumphs) by political gays. Put that drive together with the massive amount of drugs that were around and the result was a lot of incredibly crazy behavior.

    Even before HIV arrived, the ultra-partying gay crowd in the late ‘70s was already riddled with a lot of illness, which is part of what made them vulnerable to the HIV virus (which, contrary to what many of us have been told, is generally pretty hard to pass along).

    When scary cancers and unusual infections started cropping up, it took docs and scientists a little while to puzzle things out but pretty soon it was perfectly well understood that unprotected, promiscuous gay buttfucking was the main driver behind the spread of HIV/AIDS.

    The political gays were terrified of two things: 1) that straight mainstream America would turn on them; and 2) that the illness would be dealt with as a typical epidemic. They wanted the p-r benefits of screaming “epidemic,” yes — but they really, really didn’t want infected gays placed in quarantine, which of course would have ended the epidemic within a couple of years. They wanted the whole concept of quarantine to be undiscussable. And they also didn’t want to give up what they saw as their just-recently acquired civil right to promiscuous buttfucking. They weren’t gonna budge on that. So they launched the Safe Sex crusade.

    The strategy of the Safe Sex campaign was: In order to get funding and action and deflect criticism, scare the straights, even though (as Michael Fumento showed) straight America was never going to be much impacted by HIV/AIDS (not promiscuous enough); and in order to maintain the “right” to promiscuity and buttfucking while doing something to moderate the spread of HIV, urge gays to use condoms. The idea that gay guys who were doing a lot of promiscuous buttfucking were being major public health menaces was never to be permitted. Despite the fact that sex is a voluntary act, gays were to be seen as victims only. Life was to go on as it always had, only with condoms, a lot of screaming at the government, and (with luck) eventually some medical advances.

    The political gays who drove the Safe Sex response to the HIV/AIDS crisis were, in other words, responsible for tens if not hundreds of thousands of unnecessary deaths — the crazy but brilliant gay playwright Larry Kramer often made this point — as well as for scaring millions of straight people unnecessarily silly about *their* sex lives.

    Much more, and many graphic details, are in this posting from my old blog:

    http://www.2blowhards.com/archives/2007/02/aids_and_immune.html

    Unprotected buttfucking and wildly promiscuous sex were symbolically very important to the GayLib movement.

    There you have it. Occam’s butterknife.

    As long as we are naming unspeakable acts, buttfucking has morphed into the practice referred to as “barebacking”. Differing because full knowledge of the dangers is part of the appeal. It is considered a fettish by some.

    But that was pre PrEP/Truvada.

    Lets just say that barebacking is an evolving practice. It never ends.

    • Replies: @Ris_Eruwaedhiel
    What has been seen cannot be unseen. I couldn't finish watching. Ugh.
  223. @Jim Christian

    But anyone who thinks venues that were more tolerated thanks to liberation, like the bathhouses, didn’t serve as accelerants is just fooling themselves.
     
    I often wondered after the AIDS thing got rolling how many of the hundreds of thousands of sailors aboard the carriers and other ships that visited African continent cities and countries from Alexandria to Tunis and Senegal in the 70s and 80s for tattoos and sex contributed to the problem once back home. That factor ouldn't have helped but introduce/spread the disease, especially to the wives and girlfriends..

    The 1776 bicentennial gathering of sailing ships in NY harbor apparently was where the epidemic really going.

  224. @everybodyhatesscott
    If you're a white or asian heterosexual man, you don't even show up on the CDC new HIV infections chart. So yes, you might as well worry about a shark attack. I suspect truly straight black men have a fairly low risk as well and they're just playing loose with the term straight but I could be mistaken

    ‘I suspect truly straight black men have a fairly low risk as well and they’re just playing loose with the term straight but I could be mistaken’

    One wonders. As I mentioned, the AIDS rates in black Africa are literally an order of magnitude higher than they are anywhere else. I’m happy to believe awful things about black behavior — but it seems to me that a difference like that must have a physiological cause.

    …or perhaps all the clitorectomies have something to do with it? Here, one could look at groups that don’t practice female genital mutilation and see if the rates are radically different.

    • Replies: @Lot
    Two big reasons heterosexual hiv is bigger in Africa.

    1. General poor health and weaker immune system makes each exposure to the virus more likely to be an infection.

    2. Steady interlocking polygamy patterns. A is a woman with three steady long-term lovers. Each of them has three different steady long term lovers. One of them gets it, and then in his 50th time having normal heterosexual sex with A he infects her. Over time she infects the other two, but maybe only after years. With such a pattern you can have high rate of heterosexual HIV despite low risk of heterosexual transmission.

  225. @TheMediumIsTheMassage
    I've seen this posted a lot on places like iSteve and its lower IQ counterparts (/pol/, Et. al.). Yes, it was called GRID because they thought it only happened in gay men. A few years later and 'GRID' became obsolete because they realized it was the same disease affecting drug users, Africans, haemophiliacs, etc. Nowadays the vast majority of people infected with HIV are not gay men.

    Denial is not just a river in Africa.

  226. @james wilson
    Four paragraphs without stating that when AIDS is transmitted sexually it is exclusive to anal intercourse. That would have been a fine public service announcement in 1985, but it is still a subject that can't be mentioned.

    And gee now they got everyone doing it

    Glad I’m old.

  227. There is one element about all this that strikes me as a bit incongruous.

    Back when all this got going, a fellow fisherman claimed that AIDS had to have been deliberately introduced.

    Look at the groups most vulnerable: homosexuals and blacks. Add intravenous drug users.

    Now, I don’t buy it. I’m congenitally averse to conspiracy theories. But many here are not. JFK, RFK, 9-11, Holocaust Denial, Pearl Harbor, Icebreaker — you name it, there’s a fan club here.

    So why isn’t anyone all for AIDS having been deliberately introduced in an attempt to get rid of blacks and homosexuals? It seems like a reasonably attractive theory to me.

    • Replies: @Pericles
    Wasn't the leading conspiracy theory that CIA created AIDS? I see there are many pages that address this topic, including a debunking by the weed-loving hooker of Snopes.
  228. @PaceLaw
    Careful Steve, you can easily find yourself memory holed for noticing anything negative about the gay community. Their power is bafflingly that great at this time.

    Careful Steve, you can easily find yourself memory holed

    Still, that’s better than being glory-holed.

    • Replies: @PaceLaw
    Damn, you win. Lol!
  229. >background techno music begins
    >Take off all of your clothes
    >Drive a car as fast as you can
    >Drive it deep into a shrubbery
    >Emerge from car, still naked
    >You are on a freeway
    >Freeway status confirmed by a car that hits you
    >Don’t worry, you’re still naked
    >Attempt to perform fellatio on yourself
    >somehow your spine still works and you fail
    >attack the police
    Where would you frail white people be without the contributions of the African American community? You’ll cowards don’t take PCP and you drive with your clothes on.
    https://www.nbc12.com/story/38187605/police-id-officer-who-shot-killed-man-body-camera-footage-to-be-released/

  230. @Tono Bungay
    Three things: First, while it's clear that men are more inclined to promiscuity than women and thus that male homosexuals are more likely to be promiscuous than male heterosexuals, I don't see why we shouldn't accord at least some part of the reason for the extraordinary excesses of the liberation era to the misery of the closet. Unhappiness in anyone can lead to self-destructive behavior. Second, we shouldn't forget that heterosexuals too were testing the notion (remember "The Harrad Experiment"?) in those years that every bit of sexual inhibition they might feel was a dismal holdover from a repressive age that was expiring. Third, an anecdote: I was living in San Francisco in the late 70s and early 80s, and for about half a year let a visiting colleague stay in our spare bedroom. He was an active participant in the bathhouse orgies, and he liked to try to shock the relatively inexperienced heterosexual that I was with such invitations as "Let me take you to the bathhouse tonight and show you what manly sex is all about," and such reports as "Last night I had my arms up to here [indicating his elbows] in that boy's asshole." He became horribly sick and was hospitalized during that time, but he survived another couple of years before dying of AIDS.

    Was the closet really miserable? What’s wrong with keeping one’s dark side in a safe space?

    “I just had to kill her, doc. If I hadn’t, I don’t know what I would have done.” –The estimable TD.

    I suspect plenty of these guys who went wild with promiscuity were deep in mental illness that would get some sort of name like sociopathy now.

  231. @Paleo Liberal
    Kids do best with a loving mother and a loving father who love each other as well.

    Unfortunately that is not always the case. In far too may cases there are divorces. In far too many cases there are abusive parents. In those cases we hope for, and try to legally allow, the best possible situation in what may be a collection of bad options.

    One of the reasons I am in favor of gay marriage is because some gays will raise families. Two loving mothers or two loving fathers may not be the ideal case, but it is vastly preferable to a single parent and whoever is staying over that night.

    Reproduction is a human right. We can’t and should not stop it. What we can do is allow for the best possible situation under the circumstances to be legally sanctioned.

    Reproduction is a human right.

    The existence of marriage is evidence that it isn’t. What is marriage, if not a license to reproduce?

    Speaking out is a right; slander and libel are not. Worship is a right; human sacrifice is not. Deliberately depriving a child of his other parent is closer to a tort.

    You may ask, well what about adoption? But that’s analogous to amputation, or more precisely, to transplants. Only performed in an emergency.

    • Agree: Desiderius
  232. @nokangaroos
    IIRC Africans do catch it more easily while Europeans have some kind of cross-resistance dating from the Black Death.
    Pooter poking produces more microtraumata (read: bleeding) and eases transmission.

    And then there´s the famous Kenyan public health campaign
    "Warning! AIDS is contracted through normal heterosexual intercourse!"
    (it seems heteros had been feeling safe)
    As a result the local whores only took it in the rear, and the rates exploded.

    In several African counties high-ranking government officials (such as the Minister of Health) spread the tale, that one could cure AIDS by sleeping with a virgin. This led to a stark increase in rapes of young girls in some parts of the continent.

  233. @Pericles

    here comes some homo trying to pretend that african men who have sex with other men aren’t gay.

     

    I actually think there is something of a point there: there is a segment of men who, how shall we put it, 'belong to the MSM' but are not part of the 'gay culture' and indeed refuse to identify as 'gay'. Obvious example is POCs in prison, I guess, but presumably it's a common attitude among those.

    (Another question is whether those africans really have AIDS, which I'm skeptical about, or just generic ill health.)

    I once read an article in a German magazine about men (mostly from countries such as Romania etc.), who worked as prostitutes in Germany. They admitted that the majority of their customers were men, but insisted, that they were not gay (most of them had girlfriends back in their home-countries)

  234. @Lucas McCrudy
    I bit OT but to repsond to your posting:
    I've always felt (as do many historians) that LBJ decided to "escalate" US involvment in Vietnam to provide himself with political cover against accusations that he was soft on Communism. But what Vietnam inadvertently did was serve as a recruiting tool for the New Left in the 60s to draw in disaffected young men (and their female allies) who were understandably angered and outraged over this travesty of a war which should have never occured in the first place.

    This was just as true of FDR two decades earlier. With the Old Left serving as the “recruiting tool”– for the war itself.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    If you want the moral equivalent of war fought, best man your armies with veterans of the real thing.
  235. @MikeatMikedotMike
    Not sure if anyone here ever read anonymous photo blogger Zombie, but he/she had a great report on the Folsom Street Fair in San Fransisco that is now 12 years old. Some great insight into the depravity of the homosexual lifestyle:

    http://www.zombietime.com/folsom_sf_2007_part_1/index.php


    Chicago had its Homo Pride Parade yesterday. My lesbian sister in law, who is obviously pro-homo, refuses to go anymore because not only is she weary of the gratuitous "sexual" display it has become, but also because it's also a magnet for all sorts of other petty street criminality.

    http://www.cwbchicago.com/2019/06/our-annual-pride-advice-enjoy-days.html

    An acquaintance of mine works as steward for a German airline. He is straight, but says, that the majority of stewards are gay
    Once he was in Athens with a gay colleague, who used the time in Athens to go to a park, that was famous as a hotspot for gay sex. When my acquaintance asked him, how it had been, he answedered: “It’s Sodom and Gomorrha, it’s like paradise”.
    To me, this sums up the attitued of most gays towards casual sex.

  236. It was Reagan’s fault. After all, Frank Rich said so, so it must be true.

  237. @Gordo

    George Michael’s boyfriend died of AIDS, but somehow George never got infected? There may still be a lot about HIV that is not being explained correctly.
     
    A certain percentage, no-one seems sure, maybe 5%, maybe 15% of North West Europeans have the CCR5-delta32 mutation, which confers immunity to HIV. Dunno if that is the case here because, thinking about it, George was a Greek Cypriot.

    Some-one with more knowledge might like to chime in on how this mutation works and where it might have come from.

    Since SSAs have no immunity it's clearly a new-ish disease.

    Maybe George was a pitcher not a catcher

    I assume that would effect his chances of getting infected

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    Maybe George was a pitcher not a catcher
     
    Or, in the terminology of Milton Berle and his circle, more of a singer than a dancer. He was into "cottaging", after all.
  238. @anon19
    The worst damage of the "1960's movements" was immigration "reform". The 1965 immigration act was and is the true destroyer of America. The Vietnam war has come and gone but demographic changes are permanent. What if America today was still 86% white as it was in 1965?

    Perhaps, but I’m referring to movements that caused direct deaths. AIDS deaths, gang-related deaths, abortions, Vietnam War casualties. Something that will be listed on the death certificate. ( Or for abortion a CDC report.) Immigration had a indirect effect on the rise of prescription pain-killer deaths (read the book “Dreamland.”) Immigration levels are ludicrous, but not the best fit for this question.

  239. @Peter Akuleyev
    Their power is bafflingly that great at this time.

    No mystery. Our "conservative" President is a great friend of the homosexual community, and has been dating back to his relationship with Roy Cohn. He's a New Yorker with extravagant taste and has always enjoyed having gays as part of his social scene.

    In the words of Fox News:

    "Without a doubt, Trump is the most pro-gay Republican president in American history. He is also the first president from either political party to enter the White House while supporting same-sex marriage, and he has made a bold commitment to eradicate HIV domestically by 2030. Taking all of this into account, Trump is situated to become the most pro-gay president ever."

    Remember that this whole gay marriage stuff kicked off on Obama’s watch. History will forever record him as the most pro-gay president ever.
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.huffpost.com/us/entry/1512794/amp

    • Replies: @Pericles
    Is it time for the rainbow White House again? (2015)

    https://cdn.cnn.com/cnnnext/dam/assets/150626213815-rainbow-white-house-large-169.jpg

  240. @Nick Diaz
    Steve Sailer:

    "Gay Liberation Caused AIDS"

    First of all, you couldn't care less about the lives of gay men. That is just an excuse from you to jusitify keeping gay men forcefully in the closet so as to not get in the way of your ideal Society of married straight people with kids. *That* is what you really care about.

    Secondly, even if your intention of saving the lives of gay men were genuine(it is not), this is your solution? To baby sit adults and tell them what they can and cannot do with their own lives? Brilliant solution, Sailer. Let's extend your argument. People getting drunk and crashing cars? Either Prohibition or outlawing cars. People dying of drug overdoses? War on drugs. Oh wait, you conservatives already got that for 40 years, and the results are stellar. Not only do people continue to die of drug overdoses, but now we have massive corruption of government agencies, a huge and costly government bureaucracy, prisons full of people at tax payer expensve, and more drugs than ever keep pouring in. People dying of obesity? Let's outlaw cheetos. Or better yet, let's outlaw food altogether since then the problem will be solved for sure. Young men wasting too much of their time and lives masturbating to porn? Outlaw porn, and have them rape women instead. Prostitution spreading infections? Oh way, just outlaw it and have millions of men die as virgins. I mean, only a few thousand will blow up their schools and go on killing sprees, and that's a small price to pay to prevent the spread of clamidea even though just using condoms is far more effective, but conservatives know better with their idiotic moral prejudices!

    'Gay liberation caused AIDS." What a lying, moronic, stupid statement.

    “First of all, you couldn’t care less about the lives of gay men.”

    Typical drivel. Does the phrase non-sequitur mean anything to you? In what way does his opinion alter the facts?

    You’re not expecting him to behave like a liberal are you?

  241. @lavoisier
    Yes, I remember this kind of stupidity and indifference to others as well.

    The push to keep the bathhouses open was portrayed as a courageous act of civil rights than what it really was--selfishness and stupidity.

    In the movie The Band Played On they actually had the nerve to blame Reagan for wanting to close down the bathhouses, implying at some level that he was responsible for the Gay Plague.

    A lot of innocent people died from this scourge because of the stupidity of the progressive left.

    A lot of innocent people died from this scourge because of the stupidity of the progressive left.

    Normally I read the “stupidity” of the Left as design. But in this rare instance it may indeed be stupidity, because it’s difficult to come up with a possible motive.

    If it was to encourage more spending on health care, they’d have chosen more sympathetic victims.

    • Replies: @Desiderius

    a possible motive
     
    The usual. Eugenics.
  242. @Charles_Martel
    Let's not forget the Haitians, who along with gays were thought to be carriers of AIDS, and were thought to have contracted the disease--let's see now, was it from eating monkeys or having sex with pigs, or perhaps both? Anyway, I remember back at the very beginning of public awareness about AIDS, the following joke:

    Q. What is the worst thing about having AIDS?
    A. Having to tell your mother you had sex with a Haitian!

    When it became clear that AIDS was spread through anal sex and sharing needles, the joking stopped. And the Haitians were exonerated.

    AIDS was caused by the 4 H’s: homos, heroin, haitians, and hemophiliacs.

  243. @Kronos
    What 1960s Movement caused the most deaths?

    Black Power? Gangs,Drugs, etc?

    Women’s Liberation? Abortion? Sacrificing family for career?

    Gay Pride? AIDS (Bad STDs in general?)

    Regardless, the numbers of each are pretty nasty.

    The Vietnam war?

  244. @Anonymous
    In the UK, BBC TV news is *absolutely obsessed* with marking the 50th anniversary of the Stonewall Riots. It has been a leading news item for at least a week - that and the women's soccer.
    Curiously, Stonewall has or had very very little to do with legislative attitudes toward homosexuality in the UK.
    It's also noteworthy that the BBC is more or less completely ignoring the 50th anniversary of the Apollo moon landing, which is fast approaching.

    HIV is spread by a “moon landing” of sorts.

  245. @Paleo Retiree
    I’m an old guy who lived in NYC during the late ‘70s and ‘80s and who hung out in the media and arts worlds — in other words, I lived in AIDS central. I also did a fair amount of reporting about the AIDS crisis for the magazine I worked for. I talked to doctors, researchers, and political people. I had many, many gay friends, some of whom were older (and from whom I learned a lot about what gay life in NYC was like before Gay Lib), and some of whom died of AIDS.

    A few of the things I learned:

    Anal sex wasn’t that common back in the pre Gay Lib days. Pre Gay Lib, gay guys mostly blew each other or jerked each other off. Some of the older gays I knew found gay anal sex distasteful and had never, ever had it.

    Unprotected buttfucking and wildly promiscuous sex were symbolically very important to the GayLib movement. It was part of the whole go-wild, liberation, revolutionary, bad-is-good and good-is-bad ethos of the time. Buttfucking and promiscuity were seen as, no fooling, Civil Rights matters (first struggles, then triumphs) by political gays. Put that drive together with the massive amount of drugs that were around and the result was a lot of incredibly crazy behavior.

    Even before HIV arrived, the ultra-partying gay crowd in the late ‘70s was already riddled with a lot of illness, which is part of what made them vulnerable to the HIV virus (which, contrary to what many of us have been told, is generally pretty hard to pass along).

    When scary cancers and unusual infections started cropping up, it took docs and scientists a little while to puzzle things out but pretty soon it was perfectly well understood that unprotected, promiscuous gay buttfucking was the main driver behind the spread of HIV/AIDS.

    The political gays were terrified of two things: 1) that straight mainstream America would turn on them; and 2) that the illness would be dealt with as a typical epidemic. They wanted the p-r benefits of screaming “epidemic,” yes — but they really, really didn’t want infected gays placed in quarantine, which of course would have ended the epidemic within a couple of years. They wanted the whole concept of quarantine to be undiscussable. And they also didn’t want to give up what they saw as their just-recently acquired civil right to promiscuous buttfucking. They weren’t gonna budge on that. So they launched the Safe Sex crusade.

    The strategy of the Safe Sex campaign was: In order to get funding and action and deflect criticism, scare the straights, even though (as Michael Fumento showed) straight America was never going to be much impacted by HIV/AIDS (not promiscuous enough); and in order to maintain the “right” to promiscuity and buttfucking while doing something to moderate the spread of HIV, urge gays to use condoms. The idea that gay guys who were doing a lot of promiscuous buttfucking were being major public health menaces was never to be permitted. Despite the fact that sex is a voluntary act, gays were to be seen as victims only. Life was to go on as it always had, only with condoms, a lot of screaming at the government, and (with luck) eventually some medical advances.

    The political gays who drove the Safe Sex response to the HIV/AIDS crisis were, in other words, responsible for tens if not hundreds of thousands of unnecessary deaths — the crazy but brilliant gay playwright Larry Kramer often made this point — as well as for scaring millions of straight people unnecessarily silly about *their* sex lives.

    Much more, and many graphic details, are in this posting from my old blog:

    http://www.2blowhards.com/archives/2007/02/aids_and_immune.html

    Anal sex wasn’t that common back in the pre Gay Lib days. Pre Gay Lib, gay guys mostly blew each other or jerked each other off. Some of the older gays I knew found gay anal sex distasteful and had never, ever had it.

    There are many places where there is a long tradition of homosexuality (e.g. Afghanistan), but where one man in active (penetrating) the other passive. AIDs does not spread much in these circumstances.

  246. @dfordoom

    I wonder how much of it has to do with prostitution.
     
    Probably not much.

    Haven't AIDS rates always been surprisingly very low among female prostitutes?

    In Africa you've just got so many unfortunate sexual practices. It's pretty much a perfect storm.

    In Africa you’ve just got so many unfortunate sexual practices. It’s pretty much a perfect storm.

    And that storm is now headed our way.

  247. @Bubba
    Dr. Peter Duesberg, a modern day Galileo, is a professor of molecular biology at UC Berkeley and an expert on retroviruses.

    https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1991-05-21-vw-2451-story,amp.html

    He authored an excellent book in 1996 called Inventing the AIDS Virus. Prior to that he wrote a paper in ‘91 or ‘92 that was published in The Heritage Foundation magazine (which I can no longer find the link to) that argued the AIDS retrovirus was just a marker and could not be responsible for the the death of anyone who had it. Here is a link to a similar article in ‘95.

    https://www.the-scientist.com/opinion-old/duesberg-on-aids-causation-the-culprit-is-noncontagious-risk-factors-58592/amp

    If I recall Dr. Duesberg correctly, one thing he stated was that the AIDS virus violates Koch’s Postulates on infectious diseases. Here is his old website that is still (miraculously) online. https://www.duesberg.com/

    Anyway, Dr. Duesberg’s lab was defunded and he no longer studies retroviruses for his sins against the High Church of Globohomoism.

    Dr. Duesberg was repeatedly asked to inject himself with a purified sample of HIV, and always refused.

    Enough said about that chap.

  248. DuckDuckGo does much better, but I can’t figure out how to put a screenshot image here.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    postimg.cc
    upload screenshot
    click it to get the shorter url
    paste url here
    https://postimg.cc/PC8gXmLf
    , @Kronos
    Same here.
  249. @Ris_Eruwaedhiel
    I read in the past that some homosexuals were "bugchasers" because they thought that being HIV-positive was to be authentically homosexual. They also thought that they would be otherwise healthy (!) with proper medication. I don't know if this is still true.

    A major reason for the general breakdown of sexual self-restraint over the past century was the successful use of penicillin to treat venereal disease during WWII. For the first time in history, picking up a venereal disease was no big deal - get a shot and it'll go away. You can imagine what kind of effect that had on some GIs morals.

    Bugchasing in its normal usage is a modern nightmare phenomenon celebrating the gullibility of the medical establishment after AIDS but to be clear I’m talking about pre-AIDS deliberate infection. The immune system is not immortal and it is entirely possible to overwhelm it. In fact, were a person to overwhelm his immune system (by doing exactly what these guys were doing) it would look just like AIDS: otherwise healthy and very young men with no family history of disease dying from a minor ailment.

  250. @Dennis Dale
    DuckDuckGo does much better, but I can't figure out how to put a screenshot image here.

    postimg.cc
    upload screenshot
    click it to get the shorter url
    paste url here
    https://postimg.cc/PC8gXmLf

    • Replies: @Kronos
    Thanks!
  251. @anon19
    Gays (in general) are vastly more promiscuous then straights. It is not a difference in degree. It is a difference in kind. The very nature of the gay lifestyle makes it so. I recall once reading a study that the average gay man had had 200 sexual partners by the age of forty.

    However this wanton behaviour is (generally) not true of Lesbians. They tend to be the opposite.

    When researchers started interviewing gays who had AIDS, they were stunned at the number of “partners” many of them had had. Thousands. Randy Shilts’ book And The Band Played On is quite good. He eventually died of AIDS too.

  252. @CCZ
    But for west of the Hudson homosexuals: “A problem at a main-line rail bridge in Newark led to big slowdowns Sunday by NJ Transit and Amtrak, delaying many who planned to participate in the massive Pride Parade marches through New York City. Trains were running on a 30-minute delay in and out of New York Penn Station due to “track issues” on the Amtrak Dock Bridge in Newark, a NJ Transit spokeswoman reported.”

    Homosexuals took to Twitter to vehemently demand: “Stop doing the gays dirty. You knew it was world pride today.”

    A school joke I remember when AIDS first got fashionable.

    Q: How did AIDS get into America?

    A: Up the Hudson.

    • Replies: @CCZ
    This will reveal me as a very bad person, but, in 1976, I knew a fellow graduate student who defined "GAYS" as "Got Aids Yet Stupid?"
  253. res says:
    @TheMediumIsTheMassage
    I've seen this posted a lot on places like iSteve and its lower IQ counterparts (/pol/, Et. al.). Yes, it was called GRID because they thought it only happened in gay men. A few years later and 'GRID' became obsolete because they realized it was the same disease affecting drug users, Africans, haemophiliacs, etc. Nowadays the vast majority of people infected with HIV are not gay men.

    Nowadays the vast majority of people infected with HIV are not gay men.

    Citation? In the US that is certainly not the case.

    https://www.hiv.gov/hiv-basics/overview/data-and-trends/statistics

    Gay and bisexual mend are the population most affected by HIV. In 2017:

    Gay and bisexual men accounted for 66% (25,748) of all HIV diagnoses and 82% of HIV diagnoses among males.e
    Black/African American gay and bisexual men accounted for the largest number of HIV diagnoses (9,807), followed by Hispanic/Latinos (7,436) and whites (6,982).

    Heterosexuals and people who inject drugs also continue to be affected by HIV. In 2017:

    Heterosexuals accounted for 24% of HIV diagnoses.f
    Heterosexual men accounted for 7% (2,829) of HIV diagnoses.
    Heterosexual women accounted for 16% (6,341) of HIV diagnoses.
    People who inject drugs accounted for 6% of HIV diagnoses.

    These numbers become more dramatic if you look at them per capita (~4.5% LGBT in US).

  254. @Paleo Liberal
    Kids do best with a loving mother and a loving father who love each other as well.

    Unfortunately that is not always the case. In far too may cases there are divorces. In far too many cases there are abusive parents. In those cases we hope for, and try to legally allow, the best possible situation in what may be a collection of bad options.

    One of the reasons I am in favor of gay marriage is because some gays will raise families. Two loving mothers or two loving fathers may not be the ideal case, but it is vastly preferable to a single parent and whoever is staying over that night.

    Reproduction is a human right. We can’t and should not stop it. What we can do is allow for the best possible situation under the circumstances to be legally sanctioned.

    Reproduction is a human right. We can’t and should not stop it. What we can do is allow for the best possible situation under the circumstances to be legally sanctioned.

    Holy cow.

    Where do you get that “reproduction is a human right”?

    If it is in some personal autonomy sense, that certainly doesn’t mean that societies have to entertain your “right”. Support it. Acknowledge it. Give your child rights. Or even allowing you to stay in the society while practicing your “right”.

    Regulating reproduction so that it occurs in circumstances that actuallyreproduce civilized society is pretty much the one common factor that civilized societies do. I.e. the constrain reproduction so that it occurs in ways so that the next generation of people are capabale of and ready to carry the civilization on.

    ~~

    What we can do is allow for the best possible situation under the circumstances to be legally sanctioned.

    Correct.

    Which in every civilization in the history of man has meant that the only legal sanctioned reproduction is in heterosexual marriage. And that’s loose “civilization”, in all the highly successful civilizations the legal or practical norm is monogamous–one-per-customer-marriage.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    Gold box that baby.
    , @Ris_Eruwaedhiel
    Liberals think people have a right to do as they please and for their "right" to be subsidized by the taxpayer.

    Back in the 1960s, some activists successfully argued for non-fault divorce, even if minor children were involved. This was accepted by the general public. Easy divorce --> illegitimacy --> gays with kids.