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Commenter iffen points to an interview at Nate Silver’s FiveThirtyEight of a white leftist advocating political dissolution. More graceful than I, the interviewee sticks to Czechoslavakia as a pacific illustration of how the US could go about it.

Parenthetically, the Soviet Union is not a model that would or could be emulated, but it is a stark example of how quickly things can change. If one of the two engines of the Cold War could break apart without setting the world on fire in the process, a much wealthier country with a tradition of federalism can soberly and democratically approach its own political dissolution.

The man being interviewed is no squishy moderate. He clearly despises heritage America and the deplorables who live there:

I live in heavy Trump country but know he’s an idiot, but even Trump haters wouldn’t agree to break up the U.S. And certain areas (the South, the Midwest) would be horrible for minorities and destroy the environment. But it’s obvious the U.S. has run its course.

He subsequently asserts that Trump only won the presidential election due to voter suppression. In other words, even though he’s a loony leftist, he sees the rational case for a national breakup.

One of the top thousand sites in the US, owned by ABC, is positively profiling a white leftist who favors political dissolution. If the establishment is so terrified of a breakup, why do they give it a fairer hearing than they’d ever give someone as innocuous as Jordan Peterson or Charles Murray? The corporate media doesn’t discuss things it doesn’t like–it ignores them if it can and grossly mischaracterizes them if it cannot.

The reasons our white leftist gives will be familiar to readers here:

We’re so polarized that the federal government doesn’t really work. If it’s not working, then you might as well break it up before the point where the break is so bad that you end up with, say, a second Civil War, which I don’t think would happen. But if you can alleviate the pressure earlier by saying, “This isn’t working, let’s break it up,” states could join together and form their own countries, and I think it would actually help in the sense that they would have to work together to keep economic prosperity going.

America’s always contained multitudes, like Walt Whitman said, that contradict each other, but it’s almost gotten to the point where there’s no way to build bridges. People like to light them on fire. There’s really no empathy toward each other, and you need that to build bridges.

Texas discussed secession when Obama was elected. I think if Republicans keep winning elections with a minority vote, we’ll see states like California discuss this.

Well, we know when Democrats win future elections, it will be with the minority vote!

With the exception of denigrating Trump supporters as bigoted racists and resigning himself to the putative poor treatment non-whites will receive in the Midwest, though–Minnesotans are so vicious, after all!–he isn’t hung up on the racial implications of dissolution. His default framework to navigate these hypotheticals is political rather than racial. That seems eminently reasonable to me.

FiveThirtyEight‘s interviewer wants to focus on race, though, so our guy does. Asked if it would constitute an “abdication of moral duty” if minorities ended up worse off after dissolution, he gives a response indicative of a genuine white leftist rather than merely a virtue-signaler NIMBYist:

I think you’re always taught when you’re younger that the U.S. is the good guy. But if you look through history and how we’ve developed, it’s been the good guy to some people and the bad guy to others. It’s a moral country when it benefits us.

Political dissolution will allow us to separate the good guys from the bad guys, see. And if we have sufficient lead time, the oppressed minorities in bad guy states can move to good guy states. Come to the SWPL side, we have welfare:

The best way to do it would be to self-sort a little bit, allow people to move to where they feel less threatened. I feel bad about it, but I feel like it’s going to happen one way or the other. Maybe if we can control the process a little it won’t be quite as bad.

Make Missouri deplorably white again, I guess.

Though the above involved a leftist who favors dissolution, there is a lot of concern that blue states wouldn’t let red states go. But we’ve seen California bleed middle American whites for decades. This hollowing out of the state’s middle class has turned a once red state reliably and progressively blue, yet there seems to be very little effort to stop the exodus. To the contrary, the attitude of most liberal and non-white Californians to their erstwhile neighbors is “don’t let the door hit you on the way out”.

If heritage America had stayed in California, leftists wouldn’t own it free and clear as they do now. By separating from the troglodytes, the state is now theirs. Why won’t blue staters everywhere salivate over the prospect of being to pull this off in an entire country of their own?

 
• Category: Culture/Society • Tags: Media, Political dissolution 
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  1. Informative.

    Good to see both sides in this conflict starting to talk about it.
    My take: sooner or later somebody will stomp on the “right” side of that talking.

    From then on…will be interesting.

  2. anon[184] • Disclaimer says:

    It’s good that this conversation has finally started. I hope it picks up. Dissolution can happen if we talk about it enough. Radical political action may not be necessary if the effort is mutual. Personally, I’d like nothing more than the chance to destroy and discredit the progressive white left and all its orthodoxy through partition. Once red states are free, upperclass leftists in blue states will then be at the mercy of the POC coalition they created. Just like that white woman at the DCCC who had to resign because she’s white, they’d immediately turn on the white left.* I could easily imagine the upperclass white left losing political power in a climate where they could no longer “otherize” normal whites elsewhere, pitting minorities against them for imagined racial slights while the left continues segregating themselves in racially pure, financially exclusive abodes like Malibu.

    *In this one respect, I think it is legitimate to wonder whether the deepstate will really let red states go. Sure, the dumb prole leftist masses might, but the upperclass has to be smart enough to realize they’d then be at the mercy of the diversity monster they created. Expect California to go Hispanic socialist a la Venezuela within maybe two decades of independence, chasing out many industries and wealthy families. Will the billionaires in California and NY tolerate that or will they organize a resistance of some sort? You’ll notice that the Cal-Exit movement was quietly put down after Trump’s victory. Also, efforts to break up California into multiple states – mirroring this same red/blue dynamic – was (unconstitutionally IMHO) put down by the same deepstate recently.

    Maybe that’s why we’re getting a new Top Gun movie with an apparently all-white main cast and a new Tarantino movie without black actors. Stoking the old white male civnattery machismo? Steve Sailer has quietly speculated for years that the deepstate exerts influence over the entertainment industry by noting that the popularity of Chinese movie imports tanked at around the same time that country became a serious economic competitor to the United States. Nevertheless, let’s keep talking about the issue; maybe we can get this question into the democratic debates. I’d love to hear their answers. Afterwards, we can start imagining what kind of constitution and government we could have. Clearly, the current system no longer works.

    • Replies: @dfordoom

    I could easily imagine the upperclass white left losing political power
     
    Elites do not relinquish power without a fight. There is absolutely no way the rich in modern western society are going to give up their power - we're talking about an elite class that is remarkable for the extent of its arrogance and ruthlessness.

    I suspect that upper-class whites will in future avoid being seen to wield power directly. They will wield power through proxies and stooges. They will allow members of the Coalition of the Fringes to have the appearance of power without the substance. Rich whites will still be pulling all the strings behind the scenes.
  3. anon[335] • Disclaimer says:

    I can see scenarios where California, feeling its power and angry at middle America for electing another Trump, decides to secede. There would be a gradual move that way, such as sanctuary cities defying federal law as they do now, and eventually secession. If the big California goes, other blue states would follow.
    I do not see any scenarios where red states secede. Conservative voters are by nature loyal to the USA as they have known it.
    Will red state loyal Americans stand by and allow secession? There will be a strong case to deal with secession as treason.
    It is foolhardy to think secession will be peaceful, or that the newly formed splinter countries would peacefully co-exist. Ideological hatreds will only intensify. Expect a racial and ethnic scramble for power. Money and guns will be up for grabs. There will be winners and losers and the losers will want revenge.
    Washington and Hollywood elites are not the only ones out of touch with reality. Audacious Epigone and the bloggers on this site are also living in an unreal idea bubble.
    Americans will not tolerate the break up of their country. They will not stomach treason. Outside the fake political debate bubble, real Americans still have the fortitude to go to war for their country.

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
    Going the military route is a pretty good gig--few out-of-pocket expenses, travel as part of the job, technical training, retired with lifelong benefits at 40--yet the US has run short on the number of soldiers it wants for several years now. Millennials and Zoomers won't fight for the country.

    The political dissolution gap is much more a generational one than a political one. Young people--Republicans, Democrats, independents--are all more supportive of it than older people are.

    , @L Woods
    “Their country.” Lmao. Wake up dumbass
    , @dfordoom

    I can see scenarios where California, feeling its power and angry at middle America for electing another Trump, decides to secede.
     
    Are you telling me that California's elites would choose to become the elites of a middle-sized country with no real power? California has a smaller population than Italy or Spain. Its population is marginally bigger than Canada's. So Californian elites will be happy to be the kingpins in a country with roughly the political significance of Canada?

    And if they secede how much of a military establishment will they be allowed to take with them? No country would be insane enough to allow a breakaway state to take nukes with it. So militarily they'll be on a par with countries like Spain or Canada.

    These are people who see themselves as the destined rulers of the world. Not the destined rulers of a smallish country with no capacity to be a major player on the world stage.
  4. “states like California discuss this.”

    You mean Mexico North.

    • Agree: Mr. Rational
    • Replies: @Franz
    How right you are.
  5. A white liberal is allowed to talk about what we are now calling dissolution. I would think the forces that want to destroy America would be all for it. Mission accomplished. I’m for it too. Lets talk about the terms of our divorce.

    • Replies: @Justvisiting
    Divorce always seems to make sense until the lawyers get involved.

    Then the parties start fighting over who owns the candle-sticks (nukes?). ;-)
    , @Audacious Epigone
    It saddens me. My kids go to a school that still says the pledge of allegiance each morning. I want to be patriotic, I want them to have a sense of duty to their nation. But the US is no longer a nation, it's an empire.
  6. anon[329] • Disclaimer says:

    “My take: sooner or later somebody will stomp on the “right” side of that talking.”

    Perhaps, perhaps not. Perhaps they will overplay their hand and get stomped in return. In any case, white males are really the only demographic keeping this worldwide empire going – overwhelming majority of the best commanding officers, over 90% of fighter pilots, over 80% of combat casualties in Afghanistan, virtually all of the special forces, the best cultural exporters (directors, game developers, etc), nuclear power plant engineers, power line workers, defense industry engineers, etc etc etc. The right side of that equation need not even win to effectively sabotage the empire’s long-term prospects. Just demoralize that demographic and that’s it. Call it posthumous revenge. China displaces the US as the globe’s preeminent power and the POC coalition then experiences a dramatic reduction in living standards; they then mercilessly stomp on the rich white left that empowered them in the first place. That could be how the US ends … with every guilty party getting their just desserts.

    • Replies: @peterAUS

    Just demoralize that demographic and that’s it.
     
    I'd say

    Just have enough of that demographics "converted" to "our" side and that’s it. Not more than 30 % should be enough.
     
    , @Audacious Epigone
    The future is already China's. That ship has sailed. The question is whether or not there remains some relatively developed, relatively functional state with regional influence left on either of the American continents by the end of the century.
  7. The Deep State, military high command, etc. will not allow peaceful secession because it would be against their interests. There will be civil war eventually and the seceeding states will be forced to rely on nuclear deterrence. If that doesn’t do it, then BOOM

  8. “…a much wealthier country with a tradition of federalism can soberly and democratically…”

    First, the “tradition of federalism” is a ghost of the past, when the vast majority of people under 50 favor elimination of the electoral college and states are passing laws granting electoral votes to the winner of the national popular vote.

    Second, to suggest that this nation can “soberly and democratically” do anything is to be completely out of touch with reality.

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
    When's the best time to try? Yesterday. If a soft landing is tough now, wait a decade and then get back to us.
  9. Makes good sense for another reason.

    The US took off running in European Man’s “unionist” period. Think the German kingdoms becoming one big Germany, Italy from statelets into a nation, the US conquest from Atlantic to Pacific and ruthlessly supressing anyone trying to leave, and so on all over Europe’s expansion period; especially the 18th-19th centuries.

    Those days, to be really polite, are over.

    Holding on to real estate like that is now too expensive. Economics of scale work well on the way up, not the reverse. The economy booms then technocrats and bankers find ways to exploit the system by sending work to low wage nations, destroying both the cohesion and the stability of an industrial nation that makes things.

    The US is and has been a non-cohesive empire for too long and empires only collapse into disaster.

    Why wait?

    • Agree: Audacious Epigone
    • Replies: @Curmudgeon

    and ruthlessly supressing anyone trying to leave
     
    Except for the ones compelled to leave, like a sizable chunk of the population that did not agree with the revolution, and several wars.
  10. Audacious, if you have a chance to follow up on the idea of separation, let us know. Polling data, interviews (such as this one), relevant anecdotes, historical examples, and so on.

    Exploring the idea of peaceful separation in an orderly, temperate way seems to have much to recommend it, and I think a well-laid out case may offer something to folks whose informed intuition tells them that a meaningful “redress of grievances” isn’t going to happen soon, if ever.

    Plus, as I’d mentioned, there may be spin-off effects to the exploration of separation–fresh ways of solving current problems within the existing polity may present themselves while we’re planning the route map to Cascadia.)

  11. The non whites won’t leave us be though, they will follow us where ever we go.

    • Replies: @iffen
    The non whites won’t leave us be though, they will follow us where ever we go.

    But it would be on the terms set by unwoke whites.

    , @NYMOM
    I agree they will want to keep a certain percentage of Whites in their 'country' or the opposite split up the numbers of minorities into the newly emerged countries...Most have already seen what is happening in South Africa which is rapidly turning into a failed state even though it has just been 25 years since Blacks came into power. They inherited a world class economy which they promptly turned around and ran into the ground...South Africa could have been a showcase for an emerging Black political class to show the world what they could do when they were on their own and sadly it has turned out to be a complete failure. Similar to what has happened in Baltimore, Detroit, Newark and numerous other cities in the US totally under minority control...

    This has shown us what is in store for the US if we continue on our current trajectory…

    So no, the breakup of our country is not going to go down 'easy'...if it happens it is probably going to be long drawn out and ugly...
    , @Audacious Epigone
    To the extent they do, they'll mostly follow cosmopolitan whites. That's where the economic dynamism and the wealth is. But there are cities all over the country that are significantly less white now than they were even a generation ago. Hispanics are half the population of LA. They're not abandoning the city because whites are only one-quarter of it. People like being around people like themselves.
  12. “The non whites won’t leave us be though, they will follow us where ever we go.”

    It’s rather peculiar assail given whites went dashing into the worlds of non-whites.

  13. Obviously the breakup is not going to be like Czechoslavakia. Better to look at the Indian partition if there will be a breakup. The more likely outcome will be a steady decay like South Africa, at a certain point the mass immigration will stop as the country has become mostly a big shithole with heavily guarded gated communities existing in some places.

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
    There is still a lot of immigration into South Africa today. That's a... sobering thing to think about.
  14. “The US is and has been a non-cohesive empire for too long and empires only collapse into disaster.”

    The idea is over the top and I think unsustainable.

  15. @LondonBob
    The non whites won't leave us be though, they will follow us where ever we go.

    The non whites won’t leave us be though, they will follow us where ever we go.

    But it would be on the terms set by unwoke whites.

    • Replies: @Talha
    The Lesotho Option.

    Peace.
  16. Kurt Schlichter’s Kelly Turnbull novels go down this road – granted, they are way over the top, but also fairly entertaining to read.

    Anyway, should something like this come to pass, it would be critical to keep Texas in the red state consortium and hopefully Florida as well. Otherwise it would be a collection of states with fairly small GDPs, both total and per capita that would be dwarfed by a state organized around NY, CA, and IL.

    • Replies: @iffen
    Major urban areas (St. Louis, Kansas City, Chicago, Denver, Miami, Atlanta, etc.) can be stand-alone blue city states within Redstan.
  17. @Arclight
    Kurt Schlichter's Kelly Turnbull novels go down this road - granted, they are way over the top, but also fairly entertaining to read.

    Anyway, should something like this come to pass, it would be critical to keep Texas in the red state consortium and hopefully Florida as well. Otherwise it would be a collection of states with fairly small GDPs, both total and per capita that would be dwarfed by a state organized around NY, CA, and IL.

    Major urban areas (St. Louis, Kansas City, Chicago, Denver, Miami, Atlanta, etc.) can be stand-alone blue city states within Redstan.

  18. Political dissolution will allow us to separate the good guys from the bad guys, see. And if we have sufficient lead time, the oppressed minorities in bad guy states can move to good guy states.

    This is something that gives ‘good’ commenters here fainting spells, and yet here it is casually featured on Fivethirtyeight of all places. Mass population exchange was a darker event when it occurred in the the past century in large part because most people’s livelihoods were still tied to the land; in a modern economy, it needn’t be anything more than just another move.

    IOW, the moral preening of some of the deadwood old fools around here is beneath contempt — please get over yourselves.

    • Replies: @The Anti-Gnostic
    As in any divorce, things get real nasty when it gets down to who gets what, and has to pay what.

    The first consequence of that divorce would be $22 TRILLION in federal obligations going up in smoke. So a lot of people wake up one day to find they have no job, no cash, the 401k's are probably unenforceable, and the ATMs are frozen because nobody knows what to do. Formerly bourgeois businessmen now reduced to begging and petty thieving. Then the replacement government has to issue new money so all the unemployed claims adjusters and store managers can get back on their feet, and the fun really begins as your new State's elites start competing for the resources that will back their new currency. Is there enough water? Can they attract industry? Can goods get in and out?

    If the US blows up, it will take 10 years to sort through things while most of the place just scratches out a living selling food and clothes to each other and repairing each other's cars. E.g., the Dominican Republic, or Vietnam. Not unlivable, but a big, big step down from the glory days.

    Did I mention the nukes, or 300 years of pent-up tribal hatreds, or hollowed-out cultural capital?

    That's why a lot of people figure the sunk costs are so high they may as well keep the US together. It won't work, but it also means the break-up won't come until things get intolerable, as in Soviet Union-level intolerable.

    Happy to be proved wrong. There's probably a way to a peaceful break-up but I don't see it.

    , @MikeatMikedotMike
    " Mass population exchange was a darker event when it occurred in the the past century in large part because most people’s livelihoods were still tied to the land; in a modern economy, it needn’t be anything more than just another move. "

    It's funny you know - the supporters of "dissolution" will enthusiastically endorse massive displacement of heritage American stock as no big deal, then in the same sentence clutch at their pearls when presented with the idea of repatriation, because "We can't make these people move! It's immoral!"

    "Dissolution" is more popular (relative to repatriation) with people for the same reason so many other social engineering concepts are popular relative to the alternative: It allows people to virtue signal without having to face the realities and hard choices required to properly address the issue.
    , @Audacious Epigone
    Indeed. It's already part of American life now. The lonely conservative in Silicon Valley and the cosmopolitan SWPL doing research in the Alaskan wilderness both resigned to local and state politics that leaves them totally voiceless. We manage, and people who want to continue to manage this way don't have to move.
  19. Over on the comments at that article, there is a lot of discussion of the economics and who’ll take a hit.
    I’ll gladly take a decrease in my lifestyle if it means living in a place where the law is upheld, my children aren’t taught that there are 57 genders, all the bad things in the diverse community is their fault for being white, women are just as tough and strong as men unless a man makes them feel bad, etc & etc.

    • Replies: @L Woods
    People spend most of their incomes attempting to escape diversity anyway.
  20. @WorkingClass
    A white liberal is allowed to talk about what we are now calling dissolution. I would think the forces that want to destroy America would be all for it. Mission accomplished. I'm for it too. Lets talk about the terms of our divorce.

    Divorce always seems to make sense until the lawyers get involved.

    Then the parties start fighting over who owns the candle-sticks (nukes?). 😉

  21. @Clemsnman
    Over on the comments at that article, there is a lot of discussion of the economics and who'll take a hit.
    I'll gladly take a decrease in my lifestyle if it means living in a place where the law is upheld, my children aren't taught that there are 57 genders, all the bad things in the diverse community is their fault for being white, women are just as tough and strong as men unless a man makes them feel bad, etc & etc.

    People spend most of their incomes attempting to escape diversity anyway.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    Good point, Mr. Woods. Around most of the Southern big cities, all those exurbs were created by people moving out of that great diversity closer in. I've read a lot of Paul Kersey on this, especially his articles about the many counties that comprise metro Atlanta. It's amazing stuff, as things change even more rapidly than I had thought. The ones who LUV LUV LUV this stuff, because they come out ahead financially, are the realtors and the bankers.

    If you're gonna have to move out every 15 to 20 years anyway, sell at a loss each time, and drive hour-long commutes in viscous traffic in the meantime, during your whole career, why not just make one BIG move? (Is it about U-Haul charging you for one-ways out of state? Is that what all this resistance to change is about?!)
  22. @L Woods

    Political dissolution will allow us to separate the good guys from the bad guys, see. And if we have sufficient lead time, the oppressed minorities in bad guy states can move to good guy states.
     
    This is something that gives 'good' commenters here fainting spells, and yet here it is casually featured on Fivethirtyeight of all places. Mass population exchange was a darker event when it occurred in the the past century in large part because most people's livelihoods were still tied to the land; in a modern economy, it needn't be anything more than just another move.

    IOW, the moral preening of some of the deadwood old fools around here is beneath contempt -- please get over yourselves.

    As in any divorce, things get real nasty when it gets down to who gets what, and has to pay what.

    The first consequence of that divorce would be $22 TRILLION in federal obligations going up in smoke. So a lot of people wake up one day to find they have no job, no cash, the 401k’s are probably unenforceable, and the ATMs are frozen because nobody knows what to do. Formerly bourgeois businessmen now reduced to begging and petty thieving. Then the replacement government has to issue new money so all the unemployed claims adjusters and store managers can get back on their feet, and the fun really begins as your new State’s elites start competing for the resources that will back their new currency. Is there enough water? Can they attract industry? Can goods get in and out?

    If the US blows up, it will take 10 years to sort through things while most of the place just scratches out a living selling food and clothes to each other and repairing each other’s cars. E.g., the Dominican Republic, or Vietnam. Not unlivable, but a big, big step down from the glory days.

    Did I mention the nukes, or 300 years of pent-up tribal hatreds, or hollowed-out cultural capital?

    That’s why a lot of people figure the sunk costs are so high they may as well keep the US together. It won’t work, but it also means the break-up won’t come until things get intolerable, as in Soviet Union-level intolerable.

    Happy to be proved wrong. There’s probably a way to a peaceful break-up but I don’t see it.

    • Replies: @Intelligent Dasein
    Indeed.

    And the national infrastructure will not function without the national tax base and the national regulatory regime. Things like oil and gas pipelines, the interstate highway system, river management, the railroads, and the electric grid will now have to be handled piecemeal by a slew of regional powers, themselves in various states of disarray. Anybody interested in how this process will play out should research the Ukrainian gas wars.

    What we can expect from national dissolution would be a drastic lowering of living standards across the board. There would be a notable decrease in life expectancy, an increase in the crude death rate from all causes, a decrease in the number of births and the total fertility rate (already below replacement), and a whole lot of poverty, crime, and social dysfunction. America would go through a Yeltzin era many times worse than that of the Soviet Union, since he USSR had much less far to fall and was never the bearer of the world's reserve currency.

    It will not do to say that people will pick up the pieces and life will go on, for that is just a cynical restatement of the Keynesian tautology that in the long run we're all dead. Life always goes on, but that doesn't mean that certain courses of action should have been pursued with reckless abandon, and it doesn't make it up to the generations who had to livingly experience the horrors that life went on in spite of. Shades of Ivan Karamazov and the Grand Inquisitor appear here.

    And I know what you're thinking, AE. You're about to say "But the breakup is inevitable, so we might as well start thinking about how it can be achieved peacefully and democratically." This demonstrates a remarkable naivete of real-world politics and war. You will have oligarchs seizing the wealth of whole realms for their private possession, making and unmaking leaders at their pleasure, while popular demagogues lead their masses to dead ends. If we're lucky, after a decade of chaos a non-ideological strongman like Putin may appear to put an end to it all by restoring a national system. Inevitably, the champions of the breakup will become objects of derision and scorn.
    , @Achmed E. Newman
    Very good commentary by you and I.D. there. This debt-bomb that we have will explode anyway, regardless of the political situation, though I agree a big break up would bring the problem of the debt to the forefront immediately. I think it'd be better to at least have a known direction out of the financial pain and turmoil that's inevitably coming, such as we could have had if Ron Paul had been our President.

    The preppers are right, keep in mind. They are ready, or trying to get ready, for the economic pain and some of the local political turmoil that is bound to happen. However, in the aftermath of the SHTF, the time will be ripe for all kinds of political solutions by all kinds of groups. This includes the Communists, who tend to crawl out of the woodwork every century. It's about that time again. It'd be nice if the average American was in a frame of mind to not buy that particular brand of stupidity.
    , @Mitleser

    It won’t work, but it also means the break-up won’t come until things get intolerable, as in Soviet Union-level intolerable.
     
    The thing is that the late Soviet Union-level was hardly intolerable for most of the population.
    The referendum in 1991 showed as much.
    What really broke the Union was the weakness of the ruling class, the CPSU whose members at the top were undermining it for various reasons (incompetence, the wish to rule the republics without oversight by the central Soviet government).
    , @Audacious Epigone
    A dollar collapse--something I think is coming shockingly soon--will force the issue on the national debt. As I've written in other threads about dissolution, it will be the impetus for a breakup if we don't soberly think about one beforehand. Suddenly people will be running away from the debt obligation, not wanting to be stuck in a union that is left holding the bag.

    I'm in the process of trying to make sense of how cryptos play into this. My guess is bitcoin and the others will collapse, but something like Facebook's libra will not because it's valuation is going to be tied to a floating currency basket. Something like that will be fairly easy for states to adopt.

    I very much agree that voluntary dissolution will bring with it plenty of difficulties. But I think involuntary dissolution will bring more.
  23. @L Woods

    Political dissolution will allow us to separate the good guys from the bad guys, see. And if we have sufficient lead time, the oppressed minorities in bad guy states can move to good guy states.
     
    This is something that gives 'good' commenters here fainting spells, and yet here it is casually featured on Fivethirtyeight of all places. Mass population exchange was a darker event when it occurred in the the past century in large part because most people's livelihoods were still tied to the land; in a modern economy, it needn't be anything more than just another move.

    IOW, the moral preening of some of the deadwood old fools around here is beneath contempt -- please get over yourselves.

    ” Mass population exchange was a darker event when it occurred in the the past century in large part because most people’s livelihoods were still tied to the land; in a modern economy, it needn’t be anything more than just another move. ”

    It’s funny you know – the supporters of “dissolution” will enthusiastically endorse massive displacement of heritage American stock as no big deal, then in the same sentence clutch at their pearls when presented with the idea of repatriation, because “We can’t make these people move! It’s immoral!”

    “Dissolution” is more popular (relative to repatriation) with people for the same reason so many other social engineering concepts are popular relative to the alternative: It allows people to virtue signal without having to face the realities and hard choices required to properly address the issue.

    • Replies: @L Woods
    Truth
    , @Achmed E. Newman
    Repatriation involves a whole lot of tough calls on who has to go and where they have to go to. I'm for it in the case of anyone who got here on false pretenses, illegally in anyway, the whole "student" crowd, and some others, but not in the sense that you are, Mike.

    I understand that someone's gotta move, one way or the other. It's not often an easy thing, as people are indeed attached to the land often and have every right to be. As an example, people keep bringing up "well we'll give 'em the Southern States, cause, those blue counties over there", or "California is a goner", etc. The thing is, most of the "bluest" counties are still split with, say 40% or MORE people being conservative. Even California has got to have 10 MILLION Conservatives ... OK, at least 5.

    That's why I wrote a few posts back that this split is not between "mostly north of the Mason-Dixon line and south of it" like last time. It's between one census tract and another, in a patchwork of tens of thousands of such census tracts. If there were truly a split of the country along idealogical lines, then moving on one's own volition sure beats being sent out packing. (I know, Mike, you and yours were here first - I DO GET THAT. /Tucker)
    , @Audacious Epigone
    Albeit speaking only for myself, I've no problem with voluntary repatriation. There are countries that have done it with non-citizens, often pairing it with a one-time payment. But forcing citizens out is repugnant to the vast majority of Americans, whites and non-whites alike.
    , @MBlanc46
    I’m a supporter of dissolution and of repatriation. If we could repatriate the post-1965 immigrants, dissolution probably wouldn’t be desirable. But I see no way that repatriation will happen in the US as now constituted. Hence, dissolution is the only alternative to tyranny.
  24. @The Anti-Gnostic
    As in any divorce, things get real nasty when it gets down to who gets what, and has to pay what.

    The first consequence of that divorce would be $22 TRILLION in federal obligations going up in smoke. So a lot of people wake up one day to find they have no job, no cash, the 401k's are probably unenforceable, and the ATMs are frozen because nobody knows what to do. Formerly bourgeois businessmen now reduced to begging and petty thieving. Then the replacement government has to issue new money so all the unemployed claims adjusters and store managers can get back on their feet, and the fun really begins as your new State's elites start competing for the resources that will back their new currency. Is there enough water? Can they attract industry? Can goods get in and out?

    If the US blows up, it will take 10 years to sort through things while most of the place just scratches out a living selling food and clothes to each other and repairing each other's cars. E.g., the Dominican Republic, or Vietnam. Not unlivable, but a big, big step down from the glory days.

    Did I mention the nukes, or 300 years of pent-up tribal hatreds, or hollowed-out cultural capital?

    That's why a lot of people figure the sunk costs are so high they may as well keep the US together. It won't work, but it also means the break-up won't come until things get intolerable, as in Soviet Union-level intolerable.

    Happy to be proved wrong. There's probably a way to a peaceful break-up but I don't see it.

    Indeed.

    And the national infrastructure will not function without the national tax base and the national regulatory regime. Things like oil and gas pipelines, the interstate highway system, river management, the railroads, and the electric grid will now have to be handled piecemeal by a slew of regional powers, themselves in various states of disarray. Anybody interested in how this process will play out should research the Ukrainian gas wars.

    What we can expect from national dissolution would be a drastic lowering of living standards across the board. There would be a notable decrease in life expectancy, an increase in the crude death rate from all causes, a decrease in the number of births and the total fertility rate (already below replacement), and a whole lot of poverty, crime, and social dysfunction. America would go through a Yeltzin era many times worse than that of the Soviet Union, since he USSR had much less far to fall and was never the bearer of the world’s reserve currency.

    It will not do to say that people will pick up the pieces and life will go on, for that is just a cynical restatement of the Keynesian tautology that in the long run we’re all dead. Life always goes on, but that doesn’t mean that certain courses of action should have been pursued with reckless abandon, and it doesn’t make it up to the generations who had to livingly experience the horrors that life went on in spite of. Shades of Ivan Karamazov and the Grand Inquisitor appear here.

    And I know what you’re thinking, AE. You’re about to say “But the breakup is inevitable, so we might as well start thinking about how it can be achieved peacefully and democratically.” This demonstrates a remarkable naivete of real-world politics and war. You will have oligarchs seizing the wealth of whole realms for their private possession, making and unmaking leaders at their pleasure, while popular demagogues lead their masses to dead ends. If we’re lucky, after a decade of chaos a non-ideological strongman like Putin may appear to put an end to it all by restoring a national system. Inevitably, the champions of the breakup will become objects of derision and scorn.

    • Agree: Kevin O'Keeffe
    • Replies: @Mitleser
    It is not the breakup that seems inevitable, but the end of (old) America.
    When the late Roman Republic became increasingly dysfunctional, it did not break up or shrink into a more sustainable entity.
    It transformed into the Roman Empire, ditching its Republican nature.
    In the case of the USA, the national (American) roots are what would be removed, only the US would remain.
  25. It doesn’t HAVE to be a secession.

    There’s nothing intrinsically wrong with Blue states EXCEPT their governments…and THAT can be fixed.

    No state was admitted to the Union as an economic basket-case that required oodles of Federal dollars to keep it afloat. Each territory had to be economically self-sufficient. So if a territory had very little in the way of resources, then it couldn’t afford to have a lot of government.

    Any state that runs a deficit and subsists on Federal,(OTHER States’) monies to remain operating is a failed state, and should lose its Congressional representation.
    In other words, it will lose its status as a state and revert to being a Territory…and this SHOULD mean that the local “state” government all of a sudden is out of business.

    No access to the “full faith and credit” of the United STATES,see?

    Let them stew in their own juice for a while, and then the parts of those territories that have the means and the will to become assets to the Union can be admitted as new states. They don’t have to adhere to former borders, either, so say…”Jefferson”…could be recognized from land that formerly was of the California Territory.

    Or…neighboring states could have the Federal Government cede parcels of a Territory to them. Say, Indiana, Kentucky and Iowa all get a chunk of the southern part of the Illinois Territory, if “Little Egypt” can’t or won’t break free of Springfield.

    A happy by-product of this approach would be that State governments would have a powerful incentive to live within their means…or they would have to tax their residents out as economic refugees,(like the “Reverse Okies” leaving California recently)…and then they would accelerate their own demise by running deficits.

    Keep the land, ditch the grifters who despoiled it.
    Much more better that way. Don’t give up ANYTHING to these parasites!

  26. Don’t invest yourself too much in the myths of America.

    Corporations and their wealthy owners/shareholders began the journey to seek profits, from the City of London sailing to the shores of a populated continent, referred to as the “New World”. Sailing with a grant from the King to other peoples’ lands.

    A breakup would be managed to be a win-win for the Usual Suspects.

    Who always benefits from Chaos?

  27. @LondonBob
    The non whites won't leave us be though, they will follow us where ever we go.

    I agree they will want to keep a certain percentage of Whites in their ‘country’ or the opposite split up the numbers of minorities into the newly emerged countries…Most have already seen what is happening in South Africa which is rapidly turning into a failed state even though it has just been 25 years since Blacks came into power. They inherited a world class economy which they promptly turned around and ran into the ground…South Africa could have been a showcase for an emerging Black political class to show the world what they could do when they were on their own and sadly it has turned out to be a complete failure. Similar to what has happened in Baltimore, Detroit, Newark and numerous other cities in the US totally under minority control…

    This has shown us what is in store for the US if we continue on our current trajectory…

    So no, the breakup of our country is not going to go down ‘easy’…if it happens it is probably going to be long drawn out and ugly…

    • Replies: @martin2
    South Africa was not without precedent. You are forgetting Rhodesia/Zimbabwe. Even race realist types like me thought that Mugabe seemed unlike the usual black African Big Man and that Zimbabwe would at least remain the same after white rule ended. But that formerly prosperous country was also run into the ground within a couple of decades.
    , @Mr. Rational

    South Africa could have been a showcase for an emerging Black political class to show the world what they could do when they were on their own and sadly it has turned out to be a complete failure.
     
    Not so much sadly as inevitably, as was predicted by race realists.

    Apartheid was correct, one of only two survivable responses to the biological deficiencies of blacks (the other being total expulsion).  The responses of inclusion, of majority black rule... these are not survivable and we are seeing the extinction of White civilization and Whites themselves in progress.
  28. @Franz
    Makes good sense for another reason.

    The US took off running in European Man's "unionist" period. Think the German kingdoms becoming one big Germany, Italy from statelets into a nation, the US conquest from Atlantic to Pacific and ruthlessly supressing anyone trying to leave, and so on all over Europe's expansion period; especially the 18th-19th centuries.

    Those days, to be really polite, are over.

    Holding on to real estate like that is now too expensive. Economics of scale work well on the way up, not the reverse. The economy booms then technocrats and bankers find ways to exploit the system by sending work to low wage nations, destroying both the cohesion and the stability of an industrial nation that makes things.

    The US is and has been a non-cohesive empire for too long and empires only collapse into disaster.

    Why wait?

    and ruthlessly supressing anyone trying to leave

    Except for the ones compelled to leave, like a sizable chunk of the population that did not agree with the revolution, and several wars.

    • Replies: @Franz

    Except for the ones compelled to leave
     
    Well, my Canuck relatives booted out after the revolution saw it as a blessing in disguise. They seem to have been right.
  29. @MikeatMikedotMike
    " Mass population exchange was a darker event when it occurred in the the past century in large part because most people’s livelihoods were still tied to the land; in a modern economy, it needn’t be anything more than just another move. "

    It's funny you know - the supporters of "dissolution" will enthusiastically endorse massive displacement of heritage American stock as no big deal, then in the same sentence clutch at their pearls when presented with the idea of repatriation, because "We can't make these people move! It's immoral!"

    "Dissolution" is more popular (relative to repatriation) with people for the same reason so many other social engineering concepts are popular relative to the alternative: It allows people to virtue signal without having to face the realities and hard choices required to properly address the issue.

    Truth

  30. anonymous[188] • Disclaimer says:

    Woke whites don’t understand basic, wheat-on-the-chessboard demographic math. With plateauing populations in the west, population replacement will occur in a span of 20-30 years, not in 2 – 3 generations, at least from an electoral perspective. If Blue families have 1.9 children and Red families have 2.1 children, who’s to say Reds will predominate? But if Blues average 1 and Reds average 3, it’s a demographic lock.

    The 2020’s will be the high water mark of woke secular whites. Beyond that, they will be wedged out by NAM’s acting as cohesive ethnic blocks and conservative religious whites (mostly of the born again variety) acting as ethno-religious blocks, much like Mormons and Southern denominations already do.

    Additionally, the 2020 – 2030’s will see depressed living standards for younger whites, resulting from Boomer healthcare, the national debt and public schools that cater to lower IQ minorities. If a white isn’t affluent or doesn’t have a child-rearing support network (often found in a church), they are SOL from a family formation POV.

    Not to be dark, but the talk of political dissolution will die off, as largely secular whites fade away.

  31. @L Woods
    People spend most of their incomes attempting to escape diversity anyway.

    Good point, Mr. Woods. Around most of the Southern big cities, all those exurbs were created by people moving out of that great diversity closer in. I’ve read a lot of Paul Kersey on this, especially his articles about the many counties that comprise metro Atlanta. It’s amazing stuff, as things change even more rapidly than I had thought. The ones who LUV LUV LUV this stuff, because they come out ahead financially, are the realtors and the bankers.

    If you’re gonna have to move out every 15 to 20 years anyway, sell at a loss each time, and drive hour-long commutes in viscous traffic in the meantime, during your whole career, why not just make one BIG move? (Is it about U-Haul charging you for one-ways out of state? Is that what all this resistance to change is about?!)

  32. @The Anti-Gnostic
    As in any divorce, things get real nasty when it gets down to who gets what, and has to pay what.

    The first consequence of that divorce would be $22 TRILLION in federal obligations going up in smoke. So a lot of people wake up one day to find they have no job, no cash, the 401k's are probably unenforceable, and the ATMs are frozen because nobody knows what to do. Formerly bourgeois businessmen now reduced to begging and petty thieving. Then the replacement government has to issue new money so all the unemployed claims adjusters and store managers can get back on their feet, and the fun really begins as your new State's elites start competing for the resources that will back their new currency. Is there enough water? Can they attract industry? Can goods get in and out?

    If the US blows up, it will take 10 years to sort through things while most of the place just scratches out a living selling food and clothes to each other and repairing each other's cars. E.g., the Dominican Republic, or Vietnam. Not unlivable, but a big, big step down from the glory days.

    Did I mention the nukes, or 300 years of pent-up tribal hatreds, or hollowed-out cultural capital?

    That's why a lot of people figure the sunk costs are so high they may as well keep the US together. It won't work, but it also means the break-up won't come until things get intolerable, as in Soviet Union-level intolerable.

    Happy to be proved wrong. There's probably a way to a peaceful break-up but I don't see it.

    Very good commentary by you and I.D. there. This debt-bomb that we have will explode anyway, regardless of the political situation, though I agree a big break up would bring the problem of the debt to the forefront immediately. I think it’d be better to at least have a known direction out of the financial pain and turmoil that’s inevitably coming, such as we could have had if Ron Paul had been our President.

    The preppers are right, keep in mind. They are ready, or trying to get ready, for the economic pain and some of the local political turmoil that is bound to happen. However, in the aftermath of the SHTF, the time will be ripe for all kinds of political solutions by all kinds of groups. This includes the Communists, who tend to crawl out of the woodwork every century. It’s about that time again. It’d be nice if the average American was in a frame of mind to not buy that particular brand of stupidity.

    • Agree: The Anti-Gnostic
  33. @MikeatMikedotMike
    " Mass population exchange was a darker event when it occurred in the the past century in large part because most people’s livelihoods were still tied to the land; in a modern economy, it needn’t be anything more than just another move. "

    It's funny you know - the supporters of "dissolution" will enthusiastically endorse massive displacement of heritage American stock as no big deal, then in the same sentence clutch at their pearls when presented with the idea of repatriation, because "We can't make these people move! It's immoral!"

    "Dissolution" is more popular (relative to repatriation) with people for the same reason so many other social engineering concepts are popular relative to the alternative: It allows people to virtue signal without having to face the realities and hard choices required to properly address the issue.

    Repatriation involves a whole lot of tough calls on who has to go and where they have to go to. I’m for it in the case of anyone who got here on false pretenses, illegally in anyway, the whole “student” crowd, and some others, but not in the sense that you are, Mike.

    I understand that someone’s gotta move, one way or the other. It’s not often an easy thing, as people are indeed attached to the land often and have every right to be. As an example, people keep bringing up “well we’ll give ’em the Southern States, cause, those blue counties over there”, or “California is a goner”, etc. The thing is, most of the “bluest” counties are still split with, say 40% or MORE people being conservative. Even California has got to have 10 MILLION Conservatives … OK, at least 5.

    That’s why I wrote a few posts back that this split is not between “mostly north of the Mason-Dixon line and south of it” like last time. It’s between one census tract and another, in a patchwork of tens of thousands of such census tracts. If there were truly a split of the country along idealogical lines, then moving on one’s own volition sure beats being sent out packing. (I know, Mike, you and yours were here first – I DO GET THAT. /Tucker)

    • Replies: @MikeatMikedotMike
    "but not in the sense that you are, Mike. "

    I've never been asked to elaborate on my sense of it, so I'm not sure how you would know. It may not be as horrific as you think. The most specific I've been is that the US has to return to 85%, but preferably 90%, Western European stock in order for it to have a chance of survival. Tough decisions, sure, but dissolution may even require tougher ones. Political demographics are less divided by region than they are by urban/rural. Red states have blue cities, and blue states have red rural patches. Lots of tough calls to be made either way.

    As icky as it sounds, the ONLY solution to the NQ, aside from repatriation, is a return to Jim Crow. Dissolution will only somewhat consolidate their portion of the population, and likely only temporarily. Now we're talking an even more acute dosage of violent criminality. So we can pay them to leave or to permanently sterilize before we force them out or we can return them to living in a constant state of fear to control their behavior. Of which is more or less moral is in the eye of the beholder, I suppose.

    BTW, my American ancestry dates back only to the 1850's. I forget what was going on around that time....
  34. What’s surprising is that nobody has mentioned Britain. Britain is a much better candidate for dissolution. There are reasonably clear cultural and to a lesser extent ethnic divides. Scotland and Wales have a history as independent nations. They already have a degree of self-government. Brexit has sharpened the divide between England on the one hand and Scotland and Wales on the other. The UK is much more like the Soviet Union.

    There are long-standing nationalist movements in Scotland and Wales. They have viable options – they can rejoin the EU.

    And yet it hasn’t happened.

    Of course it it’s something that actually might happen, especially if Brexit actually goes ahead.

    • Replies: @martin2
    Perhaps Scotland, but I believe Wales voted to leave, and most Welsh people are realistic that their country would have a hard time on its own. The coal mines are closed, and Wales takes more out than it puts in these days.
    , @Mitleser
    Wales hasn't been an independent country for a long time and in Scotland half a decade ago nearly 45% of the Scottish voters voted for independence.
    , @Anounder
    Britain is far more coherent of a country than Murica. No matter how much a Scot might resent the English, no proper Scot sees Kunta Kinte as more of his kin than Nigel.

    Britain is also a far smaller country with no obvious points for populations to try segregating themselves into. Murica's size lends itself to auto-segregation.
  35. @EliteCommInc.
    "states like California discuss this."


    You mean Mexico North.

    How right you are.

  36. Parenthetically, the Soviet Union is not a model that would or could be emulated

    When the USSR imploded all the republics became independent at once, and were folded into the Commonwealth of Independent States. One nation became 12 nations within a transnational organization.

    Similarly all 50 states could become independent nations simultaneously on, say, January 1, 2030, with the “United States” surviving not as a single country, but as a CIS or EU-like umbrella entity.

    It’s like having your cake (the continued survival of the USA, though in a different form), and eating it too (actual state sovereignty). That’s the way it could be sold anyway. Wonder what the 538 dorks would say about that?

    • Replies: @peterAUS
    In a normal world, with normal people in power (AND normal people as citizens) that could be possible.
    In THIS one....never.

    Some time along that process there WILL be some serious shooting, death, and destruction.

    USSR had Chechnya, for example.
    I am positive that in any dissolution/secession scenario in the USA we'll see at least one such example.
    With upgraded weaponry, levels of human bestiality, etc. of course.

    Comparing, for example, Czechs and Slovaks with the majority of African-Americans and Dems is....insane.
    Comparing Czech and Slovak leadership, at the time, with this bunch of politicians in USA...even worse.
  37. @Curmudgeon

    and ruthlessly supressing anyone trying to leave
     
    Except for the ones compelled to leave, like a sizable chunk of the population that did not agree with the revolution, and several wars.

    Except for the ones compelled to leave

    Well, my Canuck relatives booted out after the revolution saw it as a blessing in disguise. They seem to have been right.

  38. @Achmed E. Newman
    Repatriation involves a whole lot of tough calls on who has to go and where they have to go to. I'm for it in the case of anyone who got here on false pretenses, illegally in anyway, the whole "student" crowd, and some others, but not in the sense that you are, Mike.

    I understand that someone's gotta move, one way or the other. It's not often an easy thing, as people are indeed attached to the land often and have every right to be. As an example, people keep bringing up "well we'll give 'em the Southern States, cause, those blue counties over there", or "California is a goner", etc. The thing is, most of the "bluest" counties are still split with, say 40% or MORE people being conservative. Even California has got to have 10 MILLION Conservatives ... OK, at least 5.

    That's why I wrote a few posts back that this split is not between "mostly north of the Mason-Dixon line and south of it" like last time. It's between one census tract and another, in a patchwork of tens of thousands of such census tracts. If there were truly a split of the country along idealogical lines, then moving on one's own volition sure beats being sent out packing. (I know, Mike, you and yours were here first - I DO GET THAT. /Tucker)

    “but not in the sense that you are, Mike. ”

    I’ve never been asked to elaborate on my sense of it, so I’m not sure how you would know. It may not be as horrific as you think. The most specific I’ve been is that the US has to return to 85%, but preferably 90%, Western European stock in order for it to have a chance of survival. Tough decisions, sure, but dissolution may even require tougher ones. Political demographics are less divided by region than they are by urban/rural. Red states have blue cities, and blue states have red rural patches. Lots of tough calls to be made either way.

    As icky as it sounds, the ONLY solution to the NQ, aside from repatriation, is a return to Jim Crow. Dissolution will only somewhat consolidate their portion of the population, and likely only temporarily. Now we’re talking an even more acute dosage of violent criminality. So we can pay them to leave or to permanently sterilize before we force them out or we can return them to living in a constant state of fear to control their behavior. Of which is more or less moral is in the eye of the beholder, I suppose.

    BTW, my American ancestry dates back only to the 1850’s. I forget what was going on around that time….

    • Replies: @peterAUS

    .....a return to Jim Crow. Dissolution will only somewhat consolidate their portion of the population, and likely only temporarily. Now we’re talking an even more acute dosage of violent criminality. So we can pay them to leave or to permanently sterilize before we force them out or we can return them to living in a constant state of fear to control their behavior.
     
    Good point.
    , @iffen
    BTW, my American ancestry dates back only to the 1850’s.

    Then the ancestry of most black Americans predates yours by about fifty years at the minimum and likely a few hundred years for many. Aren't they in a better position to ask you to leave and go back?

    , @Achmed E. Newman

    I’ve never been asked to elaborate on my sense of it, so I’m not sure how you would know.
     
    By the difference between what you've written (before) and what I have (just now).

    Anyway, we've got 2 problems, one caused > 400 years to 200-or-so years ago and then, the one caused only about 50 years ago. They both add up to big numbers now. The former one has always been a more sticky issue, one that was left to the South to deal with. The problem is no longer just in the South, so the rest of the country* would have to get icky indeed to deal with it.

    On the latter set, there are so many groups that have undergone so many varying degrees of assimilation, from card-carrying Americans to inhabitants of countries within America, that'd there be lots of fighting over who goes where or who gets what.

    For repatriation or some major re-org, some way of incentivizing the behavior (of course, with money) would be better than other ways used in the last century. The money thing will bring up the insolvency of the United States though, a bit of a drawback.

    .

    * If nothing else good comes of this, maybe they'll learn to not be so fucking smug about it next time - same with the Europeans.
  39. @jeppo
    Parenthetically, the Soviet Union is not a model that would or could be emulated

    When the USSR imploded all the republics became independent at once, and were folded into the Commonwealth of Independent States. One nation became 12 nations within a transnational organization.

    Similarly all 50 states could become independent nations simultaneously on, say, January 1, 2030, with the "United States" surviving not as a single country, but as a CIS or EU-like umbrella entity.

    It's like having your cake (the continued survival of the USA, though in a different form), and eating it too (actual state sovereignty). That's the way it could be sold anyway. Wonder what the 538 dorks would say about that?

    In a normal world, with normal people in power (AND normal people as citizens) that could be possible.
    In THIS one….never.

    Some time along that process there WILL be some serious shooting, death, and destruction.

    USSR had Chechnya, for example.
    I am positive that in any dissolution/secession scenario in the USA we’ll see at least one such example.
    With upgraded weaponry, levels of human bestiality, etc. of course.

    Comparing, for example, Czechs and Slovaks with the majority of African-Americans and Dems is….insane.
    Comparing Czech and Slovak leadership, at the time, with this bunch of politicians in USA…even worse.

  40. @MikeatMikedotMike
    "but not in the sense that you are, Mike. "

    I've never been asked to elaborate on my sense of it, so I'm not sure how you would know. It may not be as horrific as you think. The most specific I've been is that the US has to return to 85%, but preferably 90%, Western European stock in order for it to have a chance of survival. Tough decisions, sure, but dissolution may even require tougher ones. Political demographics are less divided by region than they are by urban/rural. Red states have blue cities, and blue states have red rural patches. Lots of tough calls to be made either way.

    As icky as it sounds, the ONLY solution to the NQ, aside from repatriation, is a return to Jim Crow. Dissolution will only somewhat consolidate their portion of the population, and likely only temporarily. Now we're talking an even more acute dosage of violent criminality. So we can pay them to leave or to permanently sterilize before we force them out or we can return them to living in a constant state of fear to control their behavior. Of which is more or less moral is in the eye of the beholder, I suppose.

    BTW, my American ancestry dates back only to the 1850's. I forget what was going on around that time....

    …..a return to Jim Crow. Dissolution will only somewhat consolidate their portion of the population, and likely only temporarily. Now we’re talking an even more acute dosage of violent criminality. So we can pay them to leave or to permanently sterilize before we force them out or we can return them to living in a constant state of fear to control their behavior.

    Good point.

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
    The violent crime rate in the US is barely half what it was less than thirty years ago. Thirty years ago it was five times higher than it was thirty years before that! Putting guilty people in cages and insane people in institutions is a great way to drastically reduce crime rates. The racial disparities will still be there, of course, but the total crime rate can be mitigated.
  41. @MikeatMikedotMike
    "but not in the sense that you are, Mike. "

    I've never been asked to elaborate on my sense of it, so I'm not sure how you would know. It may not be as horrific as you think. The most specific I've been is that the US has to return to 85%, but preferably 90%, Western European stock in order for it to have a chance of survival. Tough decisions, sure, but dissolution may even require tougher ones. Political demographics are less divided by region than they are by urban/rural. Red states have blue cities, and blue states have red rural patches. Lots of tough calls to be made either way.

    As icky as it sounds, the ONLY solution to the NQ, aside from repatriation, is a return to Jim Crow. Dissolution will only somewhat consolidate their portion of the population, and likely only temporarily. Now we're talking an even more acute dosage of violent criminality. So we can pay them to leave or to permanently sterilize before we force them out or we can return them to living in a constant state of fear to control their behavior. Of which is more or less moral is in the eye of the beholder, I suppose.

    BTW, my American ancestry dates back only to the 1850's. I forget what was going on around that time....

    BTW, my American ancestry dates back only to the 1850’s.

    Then the ancestry of most black Americans predates yours by about fifty years at the minimum and likely a few hundred years for many. Aren’t they in a better position to ask you to leave and go back?

    • Replies: @Mr. Rational

    Aren’t they in a better position to ask you to leave and go back?
     
    This isn't about who has been here longer.  The Solutreans, if they had any living descendants, would win that contest even over the so-called "Native Americans".  It's about who is part of America and who is merely a US citizen or not even that, just a resident.

    Africans-in-America are not PART of America.  They are part of Africa and must go back.
    , @MikeatMikedotMike
    The relevant criteria is which groups of people are best suited to build and function productively in Western Civilization. What a happy coincidence they are mostly racially homogeneous!! I'm sure you know this at some level, but you like to play your little rhetorical games.
  42. @MikeatMikedotMike
    "but not in the sense that you are, Mike. "

    I've never been asked to elaborate on my sense of it, so I'm not sure how you would know. It may not be as horrific as you think. The most specific I've been is that the US has to return to 85%, but preferably 90%, Western European stock in order for it to have a chance of survival. Tough decisions, sure, but dissolution may even require tougher ones. Political demographics are less divided by region than they are by urban/rural. Red states have blue cities, and blue states have red rural patches. Lots of tough calls to be made either way.

    As icky as it sounds, the ONLY solution to the NQ, aside from repatriation, is a return to Jim Crow. Dissolution will only somewhat consolidate their portion of the population, and likely only temporarily. Now we're talking an even more acute dosage of violent criminality. So we can pay them to leave or to permanently sterilize before we force them out or we can return them to living in a constant state of fear to control their behavior. Of which is more or less moral is in the eye of the beholder, I suppose.

    BTW, my American ancestry dates back only to the 1850's. I forget what was going on around that time....

    I’ve never been asked to elaborate on my sense of it, so I’m not sure how you would know.

    By the difference between what you’ve written (before) and what I have (just now).

    Anyway, we’ve got 2 problems, one caused > 400 years to 200-or-so years ago and then, the one caused only about 50 years ago. They both add up to big numbers now. The former one has always been a more sticky issue, one that was left to the South to deal with. The problem is no longer just in the South, so the rest of the country* would have to get icky indeed to deal with it.

    On the latter set, there are so many groups that have undergone so many varying degrees of assimilation, from card-carrying Americans to inhabitants of countries within America, that’d there be lots of fighting over who goes where or who gets what.

    For repatriation or some major re-org, some way of incentivizing the behavior (of course, with money) would be better than other ways used in the last century. The money thing will bring up the insolvency of the United States though, a bit of a drawback.

    .

    * If nothing else good comes of this, maybe they’ll learn to not be so fucking smug about it next time – same with the Europeans.

  43. If one of the two engines of the Cold War could break apart without setting the world on fire in the process, a much wealthier country with a tradition of federalism can soberly and democratically approach its own political dissolution.

    Au contraire, mon ami, the folks running the Sov shit show had less to lose from letting the provinces go; it is no accident that the five richest counties in the US ring DC.

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
    Moscow is wealthiest city in Russia by far. Was that not the case in 1985?
  44. The US has a problem with a corrupted democratic process. Elected representatives don’t actually represent their electors, they represent a whole range of special interests, such as Zionists, healthcare, insurance, the MIC, outsourcing global corporations, farmers etc. etc. and they protect worthless institutions like the FED, the FBI and the CIA.

    The way to fix this, is to drive Democracy (and taxation/spending) down to the lowest practical level. In many cases this would be the county. The ability of counties to look after their own affairs is probably seriously underrated.

    They can organize their own schools, police, justice and healthcare and look after their own roads and water supply – and raise their own taxes to pay for it all. More complicated issues like electricity supply and specialist hospitals could move up to the lowest practical level (i.e. the state) and each county would contribute to the cost.

    “Looking after their own affairs” would imply a high level of citizen participation, with issue by issue investigation (pros and cons) and voting. Participation would be an obligatory duty of citizenship to justify the consequent benefits – made easier with paid time off work, meeting places, study material etc.

    Basically the United States would convert into a loose American Confederation with minimal Federal power and some kind of rotating figurehead presidency.

    The existing financial mess would probably need a ground zero approach. America’s giant debts would have to disappear, and the quick way to do this would probably be to introduce a new currency (Confederate Dollar?) with non-convertibility to US Dollars. The Confederate Dollar would apply to output and fixed assets after ground zero day (with issuance strictly matching output = a classic hard currency), and the value of old US Dollar obligations (e.g. Chinese US Dollar bondholders and US pensions) would evaporate. US taxation and spending would have switched to the Confederate Dollar.

    The race issue would also take on an interesting new aspect. For example Blacks in majority Black counties would realize that they were on their own, and need community meetings to decide on their own healthcare, education, police, justice etc. using their own resources.

    There would be myriad other issues but the guideline would be that political power/decision making would be at the lowest level (County/State) with obligatory citizen participation.

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
    When I'm asked about my political orientation, the answer I'm most fond of giving is "localist". Let the shires do their own thing.
  45. @NYMOM
    I agree they will want to keep a certain percentage of Whites in their 'country' or the opposite split up the numbers of minorities into the newly emerged countries...Most have already seen what is happening in South Africa which is rapidly turning into a failed state even though it has just been 25 years since Blacks came into power. They inherited a world class economy which they promptly turned around and ran into the ground...South Africa could have been a showcase for an emerging Black political class to show the world what they could do when they were on their own and sadly it has turned out to be a complete failure. Similar to what has happened in Baltimore, Detroit, Newark and numerous other cities in the US totally under minority control...

    This has shown us what is in store for the US if we continue on our current trajectory…

    So no, the breakup of our country is not going to go down 'easy'...if it happens it is probably going to be long drawn out and ugly...

    South Africa was not without precedent. You are forgetting Rhodesia/Zimbabwe. Even race realist types like me thought that Mugabe seemed unlike the usual black African Big Man and that Zimbabwe would at least remain the same after white rule ended. But that formerly prosperous country was also run into the ground within a couple of decades.

  46. @dfordoom
    What's surprising is that nobody has mentioned Britain. Britain is a much better candidate for dissolution. There are reasonably clear cultural and to a lesser extent ethnic divides. Scotland and Wales have a history as independent nations. They already have a degree of self-government. Brexit has sharpened the divide between England on the one hand and Scotland and Wales on the other. The UK is much more like the Soviet Union.

    There are long-standing nationalist movements in Scotland and Wales. They have viable options - they can rejoin the EU.

    And yet it hasn't happened.

    Of course it it's something that actually might happen, especially if Brexit actually goes ahead.

    Perhaps Scotland, but I believe Wales voted to leave, and most Welsh people are realistic that their country would have a hard time on its own. The coal mines are closed, and Wales takes more out than it puts in these days.

  47. @The Anti-Gnostic
    As in any divorce, things get real nasty when it gets down to who gets what, and has to pay what.

    The first consequence of that divorce would be $22 TRILLION in federal obligations going up in smoke. So a lot of people wake up one day to find they have no job, no cash, the 401k's are probably unenforceable, and the ATMs are frozen because nobody knows what to do. Formerly bourgeois businessmen now reduced to begging and petty thieving. Then the replacement government has to issue new money so all the unemployed claims adjusters and store managers can get back on their feet, and the fun really begins as your new State's elites start competing for the resources that will back their new currency. Is there enough water? Can they attract industry? Can goods get in and out?

    If the US blows up, it will take 10 years to sort through things while most of the place just scratches out a living selling food and clothes to each other and repairing each other's cars. E.g., the Dominican Republic, or Vietnam. Not unlivable, but a big, big step down from the glory days.

    Did I mention the nukes, or 300 years of pent-up tribal hatreds, or hollowed-out cultural capital?

    That's why a lot of people figure the sunk costs are so high they may as well keep the US together. It won't work, but it also means the break-up won't come until things get intolerable, as in Soviet Union-level intolerable.

    Happy to be proved wrong. There's probably a way to a peaceful break-up but I don't see it.

    It won’t work, but it also means the break-up won’t come until things get intolerable, as in Soviet Union-level intolerable.

    The thing is that the late Soviet Union-level was hardly intolerable for most of the population.
    The referendum in 1991 showed as much.
    What really broke the Union was the weakness of the ruling class, the CPSU whose members at the top were undermining it for various reasons (incompetence, the wish to rule the republics without oversight by the central Soviet government).

  48. @dfordoom
    What's surprising is that nobody has mentioned Britain. Britain is a much better candidate for dissolution. There are reasonably clear cultural and to a lesser extent ethnic divides. Scotland and Wales have a history as independent nations. They already have a degree of self-government. Brexit has sharpened the divide between England on the one hand and Scotland and Wales on the other. The UK is much more like the Soviet Union.

    There are long-standing nationalist movements in Scotland and Wales. They have viable options - they can rejoin the EU.

    And yet it hasn't happened.

    Of course it it's something that actually might happen, especially if Brexit actually goes ahead.

    Wales hasn’t been an independent country for a long time and in Scotland half a decade ago nearly 45% of the Scottish voters voted for independence.

  49. @Intelligent Dasein
    Indeed.

    And the national infrastructure will not function without the national tax base and the national regulatory regime. Things like oil and gas pipelines, the interstate highway system, river management, the railroads, and the electric grid will now have to be handled piecemeal by a slew of regional powers, themselves in various states of disarray. Anybody interested in how this process will play out should research the Ukrainian gas wars.

    What we can expect from national dissolution would be a drastic lowering of living standards across the board. There would be a notable decrease in life expectancy, an increase in the crude death rate from all causes, a decrease in the number of births and the total fertility rate (already below replacement), and a whole lot of poverty, crime, and social dysfunction. America would go through a Yeltzin era many times worse than that of the Soviet Union, since he USSR had much less far to fall and was never the bearer of the world's reserve currency.

    It will not do to say that people will pick up the pieces and life will go on, for that is just a cynical restatement of the Keynesian tautology that in the long run we're all dead. Life always goes on, but that doesn't mean that certain courses of action should have been pursued with reckless abandon, and it doesn't make it up to the generations who had to livingly experience the horrors that life went on in spite of. Shades of Ivan Karamazov and the Grand Inquisitor appear here.

    And I know what you're thinking, AE. You're about to say "But the breakup is inevitable, so we might as well start thinking about how it can be achieved peacefully and democratically." This demonstrates a remarkable naivete of real-world politics and war. You will have oligarchs seizing the wealth of whole realms for their private possession, making and unmaking leaders at their pleasure, while popular demagogues lead their masses to dead ends. If we're lucky, after a decade of chaos a non-ideological strongman like Putin may appear to put an end to it all by restoring a national system. Inevitably, the champions of the breakup will become objects of derision and scorn.

    It is not the breakup that seems inevitable, but the end of (old) America.
    When the late Roman Republic became increasingly dysfunctional, it did not break up or shrink into a more sustainable entity.
    It transformed into the Roman Empire, ditching its Republican nature.
    In the case of the USA, the national (American) roots are what would be removed, only the US would remain.

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
    Roman analogies being inherently fraught with peril, I pair Washington/Romulus and Lincoln/Caesar. Trump is more like Severus or maybe Caracalla. We're well into the imperial period, citizenship has long been diluted into almost nothing, etc. What we're on the cusp of now is our own crisis of the 21st century. Trump also works as a Justinian, an outsider to the halls of power who makes one last valiant effort to put humpty dumpty back together before it falls apart permanently.
  50. O/T

    Guide to the Chapo Tier

    https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/11/precariat-global-class-rise-of-populism/

    The first faction consists of those who have fallen from old working-class communities or families. They feel they do not have what their parents or peers had. They may be called atavists, since they look backwards, feeling deprived of a real or imagined past. Not having much education, they listen to populist sirens who play on their fears and blame “the other” – migrants, refugees, foreigners, or some other group easily demonized

    The second group are nostalgics. These consist of migrants and beleaguered minorities, who feel deprived of a present time, a home, a belonging. Recognizing their supplicant status, mostly they keep their heads down politically. But occasionally the pressures become too great and they explode in days of rage. It would be churlish to blame them.

    Four legs good, two legs bad.

    This, our lovable forum leftists, either sidesteap or wish away.

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
    No group is more easily, effortlessly, and consistently demonized than white proles.
    , @Feryl
    My eyes glaze over when I see the typical bull-shit about how the mid-20th century was "over-rated" and otherwise unpleasant. Today's younger Leftists neither lived through that era nor do they have the empathy to put themselves in the shoes of those who lived it. Objectively speaking, the average America was doing much better in the 1940's-1960's then they are now. That's not "imagined", that's the truth.

    And America experienced a "left" turn in the 1920's, which created gradual improvements to people's lives from that point forward. And these gains wouldn't begin to stagnate until the mid-70's, after which we were able to coast to some degree until elites began jacking up living expenses big time in the late 90's.
  51. @WorkingClass
    A white liberal is allowed to talk about what we are now calling dissolution. I would think the forces that want to destroy America would be all for it. Mission accomplished. I'm for it too. Lets talk about the terms of our divorce.

    It saddens me. My kids go to a school that still says the pledge of allegiance each morning. I want to be patriotic, I want them to have a sense of duty to their nation. But the US is no longer a nation, it’s an empire.

  52. @Bill H
    "...a much wealthier country with a tradition of federalism can soberly and democratically..."

    First, the "tradition of federalism" is a ghost of the past, when the vast majority of people under 50 favor elimination of the electoral college and states are passing laws granting electoral votes to the winner of the national popular vote.

    Second, to suggest that this nation can "soberly and democratically" do anything is to be completely out of touch with reality.

    When’s the best time to try? Yesterday. If a soft landing is tough now, wait a decade and then get back to us.

  53. @LondonBob
    The non whites won't leave us be though, they will follow us where ever we go.

    To the extent they do, they’ll mostly follow cosmopolitan whites. That’s where the economic dynamism and the wealth is. But there are cities all over the country that are significantly less white now than they were even a generation ago. Hispanics are half the population of LA. They’re not abandoning the city because whites are only one-quarter of it. People like being around people like themselves.

    • Replies: @216
    The story of California is quite different without the Asian-linked tech boom.

    California has significant out-migration, not just of whites. The increased Hispanic presence in the rest of the West may be linked to high cost of living.

    Also, Belarus or Bust :(
  54. @neutral
    Obviously the breakup is not going to be like Czechoslavakia. Better to look at the Indian partition if there will be a breakup. The more likely outcome will be a steady decay like South Africa, at a certain point the mass immigration will stop as the country has become mostly a big shithole with heavily guarded gated communities existing in some places.

    There is still a lot of immigration into South Africa today. That’s a… sobering thing to think about.

  55. @L Woods

    Political dissolution will allow us to separate the good guys from the bad guys, see. And if we have sufficient lead time, the oppressed minorities in bad guy states can move to good guy states.
     
    This is something that gives 'good' commenters here fainting spells, and yet here it is casually featured on Fivethirtyeight of all places. Mass population exchange was a darker event when it occurred in the the past century in large part because most people's livelihoods were still tied to the land; in a modern economy, it needn't be anything more than just another move.

    IOW, the moral preening of some of the deadwood old fools around here is beneath contempt -- please get over yourselves.

    Indeed. It’s already part of American life now. The lonely conservative in Silicon Valley and the cosmopolitan SWPL doing research in the Alaskan wilderness both resigned to local and state politics that leaves them totally voiceless. We manage, and people who want to continue to manage this way don’t have to move.

  56. @Audacious Epigone
    To the extent they do, they'll mostly follow cosmopolitan whites. That's where the economic dynamism and the wealth is. But there are cities all over the country that are significantly less white now than they were even a generation ago. Hispanics are half the population of LA. They're not abandoning the city because whites are only one-quarter of it. People like being around people like themselves.

    The story of California is quite different without the Asian-linked tech boom.

    California has significant out-migration, not just of whites. The increased Hispanic presence in the rest of the West may be linked to high cost of living.

    Also, Belarus or Bust 🙁

  57. @The Anti-Gnostic
    As in any divorce, things get real nasty when it gets down to who gets what, and has to pay what.

    The first consequence of that divorce would be $22 TRILLION in federal obligations going up in smoke. So a lot of people wake up one day to find they have no job, no cash, the 401k's are probably unenforceable, and the ATMs are frozen because nobody knows what to do. Formerly bourgeois businessmen now reduced to begging and petty thieving. Then the replacement government has to issue new money so all the unemployed claims adjusters and store managers can get back on their feet, and the fun really begins as your new State's elites start competing for the resources that will back their new currency. Is there enough water? Can they attract industry? Can goods get in and out?

    If the US blows up, it will take 10 years to sort through things while most of the place just scratches out a living selling food and clothes to each other and repairing each other's cars. E.g., the Dominican Republic, or Vietnam. Not unlivable, but a big, big step down from the glory days.

    Did I mention the nukes, or 300 years of pent-up tribal hatreds, or hollowed-out cultural capital?

    That's why a lot of people figure the sunk costs are so high they may as well keep the US together. It won't work, but it also means the break-up won't come until things get intolerable, as in Soviet Union-level intolerable.

    Happy to be proved wrong. There's probably a way to a peaceful break-up but I don't see it.

    A dollar collapse–something I think is coming shockingly soon–will force the issue on the national debt. As I’ve written in other threads about dissolution, it will be the impetus for a breakup if we don’t soberly think about one beforehand. Suddenly people will be running away from the debt obligation, not wanting to be stuck in a union that is left holding the bag.

    I’m in the process of trying to make sense of how cryptos play into this. My guess is bitcoin and the others will collapse, but something like Facebook’s libra will not because it’s valuation is going to be tied to a floating currency basket. Something like that will be fairly easy for states to adopt.

    I very much agree that voluntary dissolution will bring with it plenty of difficulties. But I think involuntary dissolution will bring more.

    • Replies: @The Anti-Gnostic
    A dollar collapse–something I think is coming shockingly soon–will force the issue on the national debt.

    Apparently it all nearly came apart in 2008. But we printed money, bought the distressed assets with it (they are, I believe, mostly still tucked away on the Fed's balance sheet but it's all pretty opaque), and here we are 11 years later rocking right along.

    Wealthy people are willing to pay the government to borrow their money instead of the other way around. Government debt is the equivalent of gold ingots, which have storage costs. These are presumably very smart, connected people. They don't see a problem with $22T debt.

    I've heard all my life that the collapse is coming. My esteemed father tells me he's heard it all his life too, but here we are. What is money at this point? Why are we still taxing labor?

    Is it possible our baseline productivity is high enough that we've hit Post-Scarcity and the debt really and truly does not matter? I don't see how but nobody with money, including the people with LOTS of it, is acting like the debt is a problem. If we really have hit Post-Scarcity, then I say we vote for the Chinese technocrat and give me my #YangBucks.
    , @Justvisiting

    A dollar collapse–something I think is coming shockingly soon–will force the issue on the national debt.
     
    A dollar collapse would just mean that .gov would default on its debt to foreigners.

    It would have dire economic consequences for sure, but there is no reason to believe the central government would quietly disband as a result.

    A military dictatorship (with even _more_ centralized control and abuse of surveillance technology) would be the most likely near-term outcome imho.

    One good strategy is to oppose 5G--when the country is broke .gov won't be able to afford to install it--we do _not_ want that surveillance technology available to them.
  58. @MikeatMikedotMike
    " Mass population exchange was a darker event when it occurred in the the past century in large part because most people’s livelihoods were still tied to the land; in a modern economy, it needn’t be anything more than just another move. "

    It's funny you know - the supporters of "dissolution" will enthusiastically endorse massive displacement of heritage American stock as no big deal, then in the same sentence clutch at their pearls when presented with the idea of repatriation, because "We can't make these people move! It's immoral!"

    "Dissolution" is more popular (relative to repatriation) with people for the same reason so many other social engineering concepts are popular relative to the alternative: It allows people to virtue signal without having to face the realities and hard choices required to properly address the issue.

    Albeit speaking only for myself, I’ve no problem with voluntary repatriation. There are countries that have done it with non-citizens, often pairing it with a one-time payment. But forcing citizens out is repugnant to the vast majority of Americans, whites and non-whites alike.

    • Replies: @Mr. Rational

    I’ve no problem with voluntary repatriation.
     
    I've no problem with some arm-twisting as part of "voluntary".

    "You're a habitual criminal.  You "graduated" from high school effectively illiterate.  You've not held gainful employment for more than weeks, and you were always fired for cause.  You have committed multiple assaults and at least two robberies.

    "You can renounce your citizenship and be removed to Liberia, or you can spend the rest of your life in a cell 23 hours a day eating penalty loaf for every meal.  What's it gonna be?"
    , @L Woods
    The vast majority of Americans are moral cowards. As ever when dealing with such cattle, it takes a vanguard to steer them towards what’s best for them.
  59. @peterAUS

    .....a return to Jim Crow. Dissolution will only somewhat consolidate their portion of the population, and likely only temporarily. Now we’re talking an even more acute dosage of violent criminality. So we can pay them to leave or to permanently sterilize before we force them out or we can return them to living in a constant state of fear to control their behavior.
     
    Good point.

    The violent crime rate in the US is barely half what it was less than thirty years ago. Thirty years ago it was five times higher than it was thirty years before that! Putting guilty people in cages and insane people in institutions is a great way to drastically reduce crime rates. The racial disparities will still be there, of course, but the total crime rate can be mitigated.

    • Agree: Mr. Rational
    • Replies: @Intelligent Dasein

    The violent crime rate in the US is barely half what it was less than thirty years ago. Thirty years ago it was five times higher than it was thirty years before that!
     
    This was unexpected and rather difficult. There was some scattered clapping, but most of them were trying to work it out and see if it came to a compliment.
    , @Feryl
    Studies indicate that people spent far more time outside in the 80's and early 90's then they do now; in other words, a major reason crime dipped after 1994 is simply because people were not getting out anymore. And that includes criminals, also. Normal people had more of a life back, but criminals also had more vim and vigor too. So we had more crime and individual violence.

    And it's clear that many factors besides crime are important, but which are mostly or totally independent of the nominal crime rate. People had more friends, and trusted each other more, back in the 80's.

    Retroactively, a lot of Boomers try to make the 80's (or early 90's) out to be this sort of Hieronymus Bosch painting of home invaders and street gangs. But in reality, American were psychologically healthier back then, and had more interesting lives.
    , @Feryl
    Crime substantially rose in the UK, America, and Russia in the 1990's. It remained high in the UK and Russia throughout the decade, but petered out in the 2000's. Incarceration trends in both places didn't change all that much from the 80's-2000's, so some other variable must explain why crime rose then fell; I suspect that Russians and Brits just got out more often in the 90's, which emboldened criminals to some degree. Then people started to "cocoon" in the 2000's, which brought crime down, and this has little to do with incarceration trends.

    In America, crime begin to fall in the late 90's, but this lagged behind the growing incarceration rates of the mid 80's by about 10 years. I suspect that Americans "cocooned" at an earlier date than Europeans did, thus explaining why we were able to reduce crime 5 years before Russia or Britian.
  60. @The Alarmist

    If one of the two engines of the Cold War could break apart without setting the world on fire in the process, a much wealthier country with a tradition of federalism can soberly and democratically approach its own political dissolution.
     
    Au contraire, mon ami, the folks running the Sov shit show had less to lose from letting the provinces go; it is no accident that the five richest counties in the US ring DC.

    Moscow is wealthiest city in Russia by far. Was that not the case in 1985?

    • Replies: @The Alarmist
    Yes, but the DC metro area is the richest by a quantum leap and for reasons much more connected to the business of big gov extracting wealth from the provinces. Comparing Moscow to DC, even today, is kind of like comparing a Mom&Pop store on Main Street to WalMart.
  61. @NYMOM
    I agree they will want to keep a certain percentage of Whites in their 'country' or the opposite split up the numbers of minorities into the newly emerged countries...Most have already seen what is happening in South Africa which is rapidly turning into a failed state even though it has just been 25 years since Blacks came into power. They inherited a world class economy which they promptly turned around and ran into the ground...South Africa could have been a showcase for an emerging Black political class to show the world what they could do when they were on their own and sadly it has turned out to be a complete failure. Similar to what has happened in Baltimore, Detroit, Newark and numerous other cities in the US totally under minority control...

    This has shown us what is in store for the US if we continue on our current trajectory…

    So no, the breakup of our country is not going to go down 'easy'...if it happens it is probably going to be long drawn out and ugly...

    South Africa could have been a showcase for an emerging Black political class to show the world what they could do when they were on their own and sadly it has turned out to be a complete failure.

    Not so much sadly as inevitably, as was predicted by race realists.

    Apartheid was correct, one of only two survivable responses to the biological deficiencies of blacks (the other being total expulsion).  The responses of inclusion, of majority black rule… these are not survivable and we are seeing the extinction of White civilization and Whites themselves in progress.

    • Replies: @Duke84
    The same thing happened in Haiti,Rhodesia,and Detroit.
  62. @Miro23
    The US has a problem with a corrupted democratic process. Elected representatives don't actually represent their electors, they represent a whole range of special interests, such as Zionists, healthcare, insurance, the MIC, outsourcing global corporations, farmers etc. etc. and they protect worthless institutions like the FED, the FBI and the CIA.

    The way to fix this, is to drive Democracy (and taxation/spending) down to the lowest practical level. In many cases this would be the county. The ability of counties to look after their own affairs is probably seriously underrated.

    They can organize their own schools, police, justice and healthcare and look after their own roads and water supply - and raise their own taxes to pay for it all. More complicated issues like electricity supply and specialist hospitals could move up to the lowest practical level (i.e. the state) and each county would contribute to the cost.

    "Looking after their own affairs" would imply a high level of citizen participation, with issue by issue investigation (pros and cons) and voting. Participation would be an obligatory duty of citizenship to justify the consequent benefits - made easier with paid time off work, meeting places, study material etc.

    Basically the United States would convert into a loose American Confederation with minimal Federal power and some kind of rotating figurehead presidency.

    The existing financial mess would probably need a ground zero approach. America's giant debts would have to disappear, and the quick way to do this would probably be to introduce a new currency (Confederate Dollar?) with non-convertibility to US Dollars. The Confederate Dollar would apply to output and fixed assets after ground zero day (with issuance strictly matching output = a classic hard currency), and the value of old US Dollar obligations (e.g. Chinese US Dollar bondholders and US pensions) would evaporate. US taxation and spending would have switched to the Confederate Dollar.

    The race issue would also take on an interesting new aspect. For example Blacks in majority Black counties would realize that they were on their own, and need community meetings to decide on their own healthcare, education, police, justice etc. using their own resources.

    There would be myriad other issues but the guideline would be that political power/decision making would be at the lowest level (County/State) with obligatory citizen participation.

    When I’m asked about my political orientation, the answer I’m most fond of giving is “localist”. Let the shires do their own thing.

    • Replies: @Miro23
    Localism is nothing new. While the US was opening up the West, frontier towns worked OK with a Sheriff, Deputy, Judge, doctor, schoolteacher + a general store and hotel/whorehouse.
    , @midtown
    Such a classically British answer. It's what our Constitution grew out of.
  63. @Mitleser
    It is not the breakup that seems inevitable, but the end of (old) America.
    When the late Roman Republic became increasingly dysfunctional, it did not break up or shrink into a more sustainable entity.
    It transformed into the Roman Empire, ditching its Republican nature.
    In the case of the USA, the national (American) roots are what would be removed, only the US would remain.

    Roman analogies being inherently fraught with peril, I pair Washington/Romulus and Lincoln/Caesar. Trump is more like Severus or maybe Caracalla. We’re well into the imperial period, citizenship has long been diluted into almost nothing, etc. What we’re on the cusp of now is our own crisis of the 21st century. Trump also works as a Justinian, an outsider to the halls of power who makes one last valiant effort to put humpty dumpty back together before it falls apart permanently.

  64. @216
    O/T

    Guide to the Chapo Tier

    https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/11/precariat-global-class-rise-of-populism/

    The first faction consists of those who have fallen from old working-class communities or families. They feel they do not have what their parents or peers had. They may be called atavists, since they look backwards, feeling deprived of a real or imagined past. Not having much education, they listen to populist sirens who play on their fears and blame “the other” – migrants, refugees, foreigners, or some other group easily demonized
     

    The second group are nostalgics. These consist of migrants and beleaguered minorities, who feel deprived of a present time, a home, a belonging. Recognizing their supplicant status, mostly they keep their heads down politically. But occasionally the pressures become too great and they explode in days of rage. It would be churlish to blame them.
     
    Four legs good, two legs bad.

    This, our lovable forum leftists, either sidesteap or wish away.

    No group is more easily, effortlessly, and consistently demonized than white proles.

    • Replies: @Mr. Rational
    So why is that?
  65. @iffen
    BTW, my American ancestry dates back only to the 1850’s.

    Then the ancestry of most black Americans predates yours by about fifty years at the minimum and likely a few hundred years for many. Aren't they in a better position to ask you to leave and go back?

    Aren’t they in a better position to ask you to leave and go back?

    This isn’t about who has been here longer.  The Solutreans, if they had any living descendants, would win that contest even over the so-called “Native Americans”.  It’s about who is part of America and who is merely a US citizen or not even that, just a resident.

    Africans-in-America are not PART of America.  They are part of Africa and must go back.

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
    The median black in America is 15%-20% European by descent. In that sense they're alien to Africa. too, aren't they?
  66. @iffen
    BTW, my American ancestry dates back only to the 1850’s.

    Then the ancestry of most black Americans predates yours by about fifty years at the minimum and likely a few hundred years for many. Aren't they in a better position to ask you to leave and go back?

    The relevant criteria is which groups of people are best suited to build and function productively in Western Civilization. What a happy coincidence they are mostly racially homogeneous!! I’m sure you know this at some level, but you like to play your little rhetorical games.

    • Replies: @iffen
    ... productively in Western Civilization. ... little rhetorical games.

    Mikey, Mikey, Mikey, Wiki can be your friend.

    From Ancient Greece to the late 19th century, rhetoric played a central role in Western education in training orators, lawyers, counsellors, historians, statesmen, and poets.[7][8]

    I really don't blame you or other WNs. If I were you, I'd try to claim Western Civ as my very own as well. I'm not and I think it's the greatest thing going..

  67. @Mr. Rational

    So we can pay them to leave or to permanently sterilize before we force them out or we can return them to living in a constant state of fear to control their behavior.
     
    We don't have to sterilize them if we're forcing them out; their fertility becomes Someone Else's Problem.  It's the "humane" option (for a species that is not truly human).

    But if they stay here, they MUST fear enough to make them behave themselves.  As a corrolary, I suggest that those who require such fear to enforce good behavior but will not leave must not reproduce.

    I take solace in the fact that I’m getting it from both sides, making me the only truly moderate voice in this discussion. 🙂

    • Replies: @Mr. Rational
    "There ain't nothin' in the middle of the road but yellow lines and dead armadillos."
  68. @Audacious Epigone
    Albeit speaking only for myself, I've no problem with voluntary repatriation. There are countries that have done it with non-citizens, often pairing it with a one-time payment. But forcing citizens out is repugnant to the vast majority of Americans, whites and non-whites alike.

    I’ve no problem with voluntary repatriation.

    I’ve no problem with some arm-twisting as part of “voluntary”.

    “You’re a habitual criminal.  You “graduated” from high school effectively illiterate.  You’ve not held gainful employment for more than weeks, and you were always fired for cause.  You have committed multiple assaults and at least two robberies.

    “You can renounce your citizenship and be removed to Liberia, or you can spend the rest of your life in a cell 23 hours a day eating penalty loaf for every meal.  What’s it gonna be?”

    • Replies: @MikeatMikedotMike
    Actually, the career criminals you describe would be among the first to go. Those people get no choice. Gone. No reason at all to pay for their existence anymore, in any way.
  69. @Audacious Epigone
    No group is more easily, effortlessly, and consistently demonized than white proles.

    So why is that?

  70. @MikeatMikedotMike
    I take solace in the fact that I'm getting it from both sides, making me the only truly moderate voice in this discussion. :)

    “There ain’t nothin’ in the middle of the road but yellow lines and dead armadillos.”

  71. @Audacious Epigone
    The violent crime rate in the US is barely half what it was less than thirty years ago. Thirty years ago it was five times higher than it was thirty years before that! Putting guilty people in cages and insane people in institutions is a great way to drastically reduce crime rates. The racial disparities will still be there, of course, but the total crime rate can be mitigated.

    The violent crime rate in the US is barely half what it was less than thirty years ago. Thirty years ago it was five times higher than it was thirty years before that!

    This was unexpected and rather difficult. There was some scattered clapping, but most of them were trying to work it out and see if it came to a compliment.

  72. @Mr. Rational

    South Africa could have been a showcase for an emerging Black political class to show the world what they could do when they were on their own and sadly it has turned out to be a complete failure.
     
    Not so much sadly as inevitably, as was predicted by race realists.

    Apartheid was correct, one of only two survivable responses to the biological deficiencies of blacks (the other being total expulsion).  The responses of inclusion, of majority black rule... these are not survivable and we are seeing the extinction of White civilization and Whites themselves in progress.

    The same thing happened in Haiti,Rhodesia,and Detroit.

  73. @Audacious Epigone
    Moscow is wealthiest city in Russia by far. Was that not the case in 1985?

    Yes, but the DC metro area is the richest by a quantum leap and for reasons much more connected to the business of big gov extracting wealth from the provinces. Comparing Moscow to DC, even today, is kind of like comparing a Mom&Pop store on Main Street to WalMart.

    • Agree: Audacious Epigone
  74. @iffen
    The non whites won’t leave us be though, they will follow us where ever we go.

    But it would be on the terms set by unwoke whites.

    The Lesotho Option.

    Peace.

  75. @Audacious Epigone
    When I'm asked about my political orientation, the answer I'm most fond of giving is "localist". Let the shires do their own thing.

    Localism is nothing new. While the US was opening up the West, frontier towns worked OK with a Sheriff, Deputy, Judge, doctor, schoolteacher + a general store and hotel/whorehouse.

  76. @Mr. Rational

    I’ve no problem with voluntary repatriation.
     
    I've no problem with some arm-twisting as part of "voluntary".

    "You're a habitual criminal.  You "graduated" from high school effectively illiterate.  You've not held gainful employment for more than weeks, and you were always fired for cause.  You have committed multiple assaults and at least two robberies.

    "You can renounce your citizenship and be removed to Liberia, or you can spend the rest of your life in a cell 23 hours a day eating penalty loaf for every meal.  What's it gonna be?"

    Actually, the career criminals you describe would be among the first to go. Those people get no choice. Gone. No reason at all to pay for their existence anymore, in any way.

    • Replies: @Mr. Rational
    True, there is no reason to pay for their existence, but states cannot legislate removal of US citizenship (more's the pity).  The death penalty is unpopular, but arm-twisting to get criminals to sign away their citizenship might get through on a plebiscite.
  77. @Audacious Epigone
    A dollar collapse--something I think is coming shockingly soon--will force the issue on the national debt. As I've written in other threads about dissolution, it will be the impetus for a breakup if we don't soberly think about one beforehand. Suddenly people will be running away from the debt obligation, not wanting to be stuck in a union that is left holding the bag.

    I'm in the process of trying to make sense of how cryptos play into this. My guess is bitcoin and the others will collapse, but something like Facebook's libra will not because it's valuation is going to be tied to a floating currency basket. Something like that will be fairly easy for states to adopt.

    I very much agree that voluntary dissolution will bring with it plenty of difficulties. But I think involuntary dissolution will bring more.

    A dollar collapse–something I think is coming shockingly soon–will force the issue on the national debt.

    Apparently it all nearly came apart in 2008. But we printed money, bought the distressed assets with it (they are, I believe, mostly still tucked away on the Fed’s balance sheet but it’s all pretty opaque), and here we are 11 years later rocking right along.

    Wealthy people are willing to pay the government to borrow their money instead of the other way around. Government debt is the equivalent of gold ingots, which have storage costs. These are presumably very smart, connected people. They don’t see a problem with $22T debt.

    I’ve heard all my life that the collapse is coming. My esteemed father tells me he’s heard it all his life too, but here we are. What is money at this point? Why are we still taxing labor?

    Is it possible our baseline productivity is high enough that we’ve hit Post-Scarcity and the debt really and truly does not matter? I don’t see how but nobody with money, including the people with LOTS of it, is acting like the debt is a problem. If we really have hit Post-Scarcity, then I say we vote for the Chinese technocrat and give me my #YangBucks.

    • Replies: @Intelligent Dasein

    I’ve heard all my life that the collapse is coming...
     
    The collapse isn't "coming." It's here---now. It's just that the losses are so socialized that the frog is boiling rather than getting skewered outright. The collapse is manifesting itself in the slow and steady erosion of purchasing power; in stagnant wages; in the relentless rise in the cost of housing, education, and healthcare; and in the depreciation of capital assets that aren't being repaired or replaced. The economy isn't growing, but it's maintaining a semblance of activity by liquidating the stored value of everything.

    Right now we're riding a tiger of financial repression. Artificially low interest rates are the key to the entire puzzle. We know that if we were to let interest rates normalize then the whole jig would be up, the massive debt would be unserviceable, and the depression we've been living in for the last decade would suddenly appear in Stay Puft proportions.

    My guess is that as long as the Baby Boomers are still alive and compos mentis in electorally significant proportions, the low interest rate regime will continue in order to preserve their nominal asset values. Once their feeble old hands lose their grip on the levers of power, the whole thing falls apart.
    , @Audacious Epigone
    Economic growth has been slower from the 2008 crash to today than it was from the 2001 crash to the 2008 crash, and it was lower during that period than it was between 1987 and 2001. This is the first 'recovery' where the Fed has utterly failed to normalize interest rates to something above free money. Now the Fed is beginning the cut towards zero. We're stalling out now. We'll be dropping shortly.
  78. Well, words are forgettable, but I’ll offer a few anyway.

    I’ve benefited from our American government. The GI Bill, for example. Then, I talked myself into believing whatever government costs were associated with that program would be more than repaid by my increased earning capacity and tax-paying ability.

    Twenty years later, I studied affirmative action and its effects. I tried to let the evidence speak, and not my own biases. I concluded affirmative action was a major factor in my not being even considered for big company employment, where the income opportunities were much better than the tiny, poorly capitalized businesses where I’d been stuck. That was a conclusion I did not want to reach.

    I’m in my 60s now, and mostly retired. I have a few good years left. I think I’d welcome the chance to live in a country that treats me more or less decently. I don’t need utopia, just decency. The America I–we–live in treats its people as pieces on a social engineer’s chess board, advancing pieces and sacrificing them as needed to satisfy a calculus I don’t understand. That’s just wrong.

    I’ve said some words in favor of getting the ball rolling on separation, so I’ll let it go at that.

    • Agree: Mr. Rational
    • Replies: @The Anti-Gnostic
    I'm a decade behind you and if I could go back in time to my younger self, I'd tell him to spend his strong, healthy youth forming militias. But who among us at the time ever imagined that the 1980's were the Last White Decade? So we just lived our lives and paid taxes instead. I'm still healthy, and strong for my cohort, but I need to be a lot younger for what's coming. Oh well.

    I am blessed with young parents who are a decade ahead of you. They cannot believe what the country had and let slip away.
    , @iffen
    “If only one man [unjustly loses an opportunity], that is a tragedy. If millions [lose an opportunity], that’s only statistics.”

    It is admirable that you have not let the injustice engender extreme bitternest.

    It is not original to me, but it is worth repeating: If we don't get rid of most affirmative action policies, the groups that are targeted for affirmation will suffer the most severe consequences. That is, if we end up with strict quotas (trend) then those POC and women who are in fact competent in a field (say, medicine), will be shunned because it will be difficult to separate the competent from the placeholders.
    , @peterAUS

    The America I–we–live in treats its people as pieces on a social engineer’s chess board, advancing pieces and sacrificing them as needed to satisfy a calculus I don’t understand.
     
    Easy to understand. Eternal. POWER.
    With power comes the rest.
  79. @JackOH
    Well, words are forgettable, but I'll offer a few anyway.

    I've benefited from our American government. The GI Bill, for example. Then, I talked myself into believing whatever government costs were associated with that program would be more than repaid by my increased earning capacity and tax-paying ability.

    Twenty years later, I studied affirmative action and its effects. I tried to let the evidence speak, and not my own biases. I concluded affirmative action was a major factor in my not being even considered for big company employment, where the income opportunities were much better than the tiny, poorly capitalized businesses where I'd been stuck. That was a conclusion I did not want to reach.

    I'm in my 60s now, and mostly retired. I have a few good years left. I think I'd welcome the chance to live in a country that treats me more or less decently. I don't need utopia, just decency. The America I--we--live in treats its people as pieces on a social engineer's chess board, advancing pieces and sacrificing them as needed to satisfy a calculus I don't understand. That's just wrong.

    I've said some words in favor of getting the ball rolling on separation, so I'll let it go at that.

    I’m a decade behind you and if I could go back in time to my younger self, I’d tell him to spend his strong, healthy youth forming militias. But who among us at the time ever imagined that the 1980’s were the Last White Decade? So we just lived our lives and paid taxes instead. I’m still healthy, and strong for my cohort, but I need to be a lot younger for what’s coming. Oh well.

    I am blessed with young parents who are a decade ahead of you. They cannot believe what the country had and let slip away.

    • Replies: @peterAUS

    ..I’d tell him to spend his strong, healthy youth forming militias. ...
     
    I wouldn't actually. Not yet.
    I'd tell him to get ready for it. Get skillset able to form and LEAD a militia platoon in 48 hours.
    Something like that.

    I’m still healthy, and strong for my cohort, but I need to be a lot younger for what’s coming.
     
    Don't sell yourself short.
    If you can shoot and THINK you are good.
  80. @MikeatMikedotMike
    The relevant criteria is which groups of people are best suited to build and function productively in Western Civilization. What a happy coincidence they are mostly racially homogeneous!! I'm sure you know this at some level, but you like to play your little rhetorical games.

    … productively in Western Civilization. … little rhetorical games.

    Mikey, Mikey, Mikey, Wiki can be your friend.

    From Ancient Greece to the late 19th century, rhetoric played a central role in Western education in training orators, lawyers, counsellors, historians, statesmen, and poets.[7][8]

    I really don’t blame you or other WNs. If I were you, I’d try to claim Western Civ as my very own as well. I’m not and I think it’s the greatest thing going..

    • Replies: @MikeatMikedotMike
    I don't blame you either, for not being able to discuss an issue honestly. Most cucks can't.
  81. @JackOH
    Well, words are forgettable, but I'll offer a few anyway.

    I've benefited from our American government. The GI Bill, for example. Then, I talked myself into believing whatever government costs were associated with that program would be more than repaid by my increased earning capacity and tax-paying ability.

    Twenty years later, I studied affirmative action and its effects. I tried to let the evidence speak, and not my own biases. I concluded affirmative action was a major factor in my not being even considered for big company employment, where the income opportunities were much better than the tiny, poorly capitalized businesses where I'd been stuck. That was a conclusion I did not want to reach.

    I'm in my 60s now, and mostly retired. I have a few good years left. I think I'd welcome the chance to live in a country that treats me more or less decently. I don't need utopia, just decency. The America I--we--live in treats its people as pieces on a social engineer's chess board, advancing pieces and sacrificing them as needed to satisfy a calculus I don't understand. That's just wrong.

    I've said some words in favor of getting the ball rolling on separation, so I'll let it go at that.

    “If only one man [unjustly loses an opportunity], that is a tragedy. If millions [lose an opportunity], that’s only statistics.”

    It is admirable that you have not let the injustice engender extreme bitternest.

    It is not original to me, but it is worth repeating: If we don’t get rid of most affirmative action policies, the groups that are targeted for affirmation will suffer the most severe consequences. That is, if we end up with strict quotas (trend) then those POC and women who are in fact competent in a field (say, medicine), will be shunned because it will be difficult to separate the competent from the placeholders.

  82. @MikeatMikedotMike
    Actually, the career criminals you describe would be among the first to go. Those people get no choice. Gone. No reason at all to pay for their existence anymore, in any way.

    True, there is no reason to pay for their existence, but states cannot legislate removal of US citizenship (more’s the pity).  The death penalty is unpopular, but arm-twisting to get criminals to sign away their citizenship might get through on a plebiscite.

  83. @The Anti-Gnostic
    A dollar collapse–something I think is coming shockingly soon–will force the issue on the national debt.

    Apparently it all nearly came apart in 2008. But we printed money, bought the distressed assets with it (they are, I believe, mostly still tucked away on the Fed's balance sheet but it's all pretty opaque), and here we are 11 years later rocking right along.

    Wealthy people are willing to pay the government to borrow their money instead of the other way around. Government debt is the equivalent of gold ingots, which have storage costs. These are presumably very smart, connected people. They don't see a problem with $22T debt.

    I've heard all my life that the collapse is coming. My esteemed father tells me he's heard it all his life too, but here we are. What is money at this point? Why are we still taxing labor?

    Is it possible our baseline productivity is high enough that we've hit Post-Scarcity and the debt really and truly does not matter? I don't see how but nobody with money, including the people with LOTS of it, is acting like the debt is a problem. If we really have hit Post-Scarcity, then I say we vote for the Chinese technocrat and give me my #YangBucks.

    I’ve heard all my life that the collapse is coming…

    The collapse isn’t “coming.” It’s here—now. It’s just that the losses are so socialized that the frog is boiling rather than getting skewered outright. The collapse is manifesting itself in the slow and steady erosion of purchasing power; in stagnant wages; in the relentless rise in the cost of housing, education, and healthcare; and in the depreciation of capital assets that aren’t being repaired or replaced. The economy isn’t growing, but it’s maintaining a semblance of activity by liquidating the stored value of everything.

    Right now we’re riding a tiger of financial repression. Artificially low interest rates are the key to the entire puzzle. We know that if we were to let interest rates normalize then the whole jig would be up, the massive debt would be unserviceable, and the depression we’ve been living in for the last decade would suddenly appear in Stay Puft proportions.

    My guess is that as long as the Baby Boomers are still alive and compos mentis in electorally significant proportions, the low interest rate regime will continue in order to preserve their nominal asset values. Once their feeble old hands lose their grip on the levers of power, the whole thing falls apart.

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
    If a currency crisis comes before the boomers have ridden off into the sunset, they be forced to see the chickens they raised return home to roost.
  84. @Audacious Epigone
    A dollar collapse--something I think is coming shockingly soon--will force the issue on the national debt. As I've written in other threads about dissolution, it will be the impetus for a breakup if we don't soberly think about one beforehand. Suddenly people will be running away from the debt obligation, not wanting to be stuck in a union that is left holding the bag.

    I'm in the process of trying to make sense of how cryptos play into this. My guess is bitcoin and the others will collapse, but something like Facebook's libra will not because it's valuation is going to be tied to a floating currency basket. Something like that will be fairly easy for states to adopt.

    I very much agree that voluntary dissolution will bring with it plenty of difficulties. But I think involuntary dissolution will bring more.

    A dollar collapse–something I think is coming shockingly soon–will force the issue on the national debt.

    A dollar collapse would just mean that .gov would default on its debt to foreigners.

    It would have dire economic consequences for sure, but there is no reason to believe the central government would quietly disband as a result.

    A military dictatorship (with even _more_ centralized control and abuse of surveillance technology) would be the most likely near-term outcome imho.

    One good strategy is to oppose 5G–when the country is broke .gov won’t be able to afford to install it–we do _not_ want that surveillance technology available to them.

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
    Defaulting on foreign debt would be the 'best' move but the Fed seems only seems capable of a single response--"quantitative easing". They'll flood the market and pay in worthless notes before officially defaulting.
  85. Well, if it does happen, outlets like CNN are to blame for not permitting reasonable dialogue as to how various groups can work together by throwing distractions and veering the discussion towards “bad, white guys, bad!”

    Peace.

  86. “The corporate media doesn’t discuss things it doesn’t like–it ignores them if it can and grossly mischaracterizes them if it cannot…

    The parasites are probably starting to realize that if they don’t do something like this, there is a very real risk — a risk higher than that global warming will be a disaster for them — that the current geographic divide between urban and rural counties results in The Nation of Settlers killing The Nation of Immigrants by the simple expedient of pulling the plug on the life support to the urban counties harboring The Nation of Immigrants.

    “To the contrary, the attitude of most liberal and non-white Californians to their erstwhile neighbors is “don’t let the door hit you on the way out”.

    Yes, and now that the conquest of the highest value, coastal and agricultural real estate is a fiat accompli, get the potential saboteurs of urban life support out.

    However, I don’t think this is going to happen. It only takes a few percent of the population to kill the very non-resilient urban counties.

    Better than dissolution is the replacement of the US Constitution’s namby-pamby language in the 9th and 10th Amendments (and poisonous centralization of power in the Judiciary hence 14th Amendment) with Sortocracy. POC will like Sortocracy because it allocates territory in proportion to population. But it also requires additional population to conquer territory, e.g. if the entirety of India wants to immigrate to some jurisdiction within Sortocracy, they are obligated to conquer territory of equal value to that which they are allocated under Sortocracy.

    Bear in mind that Sortocracy replaces prisons with exile and border enforcement, for any reason whatsoever, agreed to by that the citizens of their respective States.

    • Agree: Mr. Rational
  87. @JackOH
    Well, words are forgettable, but I'll offer a few anyway.

    I've benefited from our American government. The GI Bill, for example. Then, I talked myself into believing whatever government costs were associated with that program would be more than repaid by my increased earning capacity and tax-paying ability.

    Twenty years later, I studied affirmative action and its effects. I tried to let the evidence speak, and not my own biases. I concluded affirmative action was a major factor in my not being even considered for big company employment, where the income opportunities were much better than the tiny, poorly capitalized businesses where I'd been stuck. That was a conclusion I did not want to reach.

    I'm in my 60s now, and mostly retired. I have a few good years left. I think I'd welcome the chance to live in a country that treats me more or less decently. I don't need utopia, just decency. The America I--we--live in treats its people as pieces on a social engineer's chess board, advancing pieces and sacrificing them as needed to satisfy a calculus I don't understand. That's just wrong.

    I've said some words in favor of getting the ball rolling on separation, so I'll let it go at that.

    The America I–we–live in treats its people as pieces on a social engineer’s chess board, advancing pieces and sacrificing them as needed to satisfy a calculus I don’t understand.

    Easy to understand. Eternal. POWER.
    With power comes the rest.

  88. @The Anti-Gnostic
    I'm a decade behind you and if I could go back in time to my younger self, I'd tell him to spend his strong, healthy youth forming militias. But who among us at the time ever imagined that the 1980's were the Last White Decade? So we just lived our lives and paid taxes instead. I'm still healthy, and strong for my cohort, but I need to be a lot younger for what's coming. Oh well.

    I am blessed with young parents who are a decade ahead of you. They cannot believe what the country had and let slip away.

    ..I’d tell him to spend his strong, healthy youth forming militias. …

    I wouldn’t actually. Not yet.
    I’d tell him to get ready for it. Get skillset able to form and LEAD a militia platoon in 48 hours.
    Something like that.

    I’m still healthy, and strong for my cohort, but I need to be a lot younger for what’s coming.

    Don’t sell yourself short.
    If you can shoot and THINK you are good.

  89. @dfordoom
    What's surprising is that nobody has mentioned Britain. Britain is a much better candidate for dissolution. There are reasonably clear cultural and to a lesser extent ethnic divides. Scotland and Wales have a history as independent nations. They already have a degree of self-government. Brexit has sharpened the divide between England on the one hand and Scotland and Wales on the other. The UK is much more like the Soviet Union.

    There are long-standing nationalist movements in Scotland and Wales. They have viable options - they can rejoin the EU.

    And yet it hasn't happened.

    Of course it it's something that actually might happen, especially if Brexit actually goes ahead.

    Britain is far more coherent of a country than Murica. No matter how much a Scot might resent the English, no proper Scot sees Kunta Kinte as more of his kin than Nigel.

    Britain is also a far smaller country with no obvious points for populations to try segregating themselves into. Murica’s size lends itself to auto-segregation.

    • Replies: @dfordoom

    Britain is far more coherent of a country than Murica. No matter how much a Scot might resent the English, no proper Scot sees Kunta Kinte as more of his kin than Nigel.
     
    That's why it would be much easier for Britain to break up. England would not need to destroy an independent Scotland as a dangerous ideological enemy full of evil Nazis.

    Hatreds in Britain are entirely and openly class hatreds. Scottish independence would not interfere with the favourite pastime of English elites - hating the working class.

    The main driving force behind a push for Scottish independence will be Scottish desire to rejoin the EU, if Brexit actually goes ahead (which seems unlikely).
  90. @iffen
    ... productively in Western Civilization. ... little rhetorical games.

    Mikey, Mikey, Mikey, Wiki can be your friend.

    From Ancient Greece to the late 19th century, rhetoric played a central role in Western education in training orators, lawyers, counsellors, historians, statesmen, and poets.[7][8]

    I really don't blame you or other WNs. If I were you, I'd try to claim Western Civ as my very own as well. I'm not and I think it's the greatest thing going..

    I don’t blame you either, for not being able to discuss an issue honestly. Most cucks can’t.

    • Replies: @iffen
    for not being able to discuss an issue honestly

    But I can, Mikey.

    You do not want an "honest" discussion. You are just like the SJWs who say we need "a conversation about race." What they (you) really mean is that you (me) should stop thinking about race the way you (I) do and start thinking about it the way that they (you) do.

    White nationalism is not going to happen. The peoples of Western Civilization (that civilization that you want to claim as your own) have been moving in the opposite direction by cultural and genetic evolution at least since the time of Christ. It hit hyper speed in the 16C and 17C. That's a lot of generations ago. You should give serious consideration to what people like AE tell you about WEIRD people, he's on to something. You are trying to create an ethos; something that normally takes hundreds or thousands of years. And the required hundreds or thousands of years is not even the main problem. The main impediment is that you are trying to create it out of peoples who have consciously and explicitly rejected race as a founding criterion for an ethos.

    The question of citizenship for black Americans was decided over 150 years ago and cost hundreds of thousands of lives. A miniscule number of people will be willing to sacrifice their life and the lives of their family and friends in order to relitigate the issue. Look at the difficulties Peter has recruiting cannon fodder on what should be somewhat favorable ground.

    Now, what you want is not completely impossible. A group of WEIRD people had a race based political entity less than a hundred years ago. You may have read about it. The reason that it was possible is because deeper, and under the WEIRD layer, the us/them dynamic is still within each person. Given favorable economic, political and social conditions, a charismatic leader can bring forth this dynamic to primacy. And given our herd/leader instinct, your race based entity can become a reality. But WEIRD people are smart and they know this. That is why you get called a Nazi, and why you and others like you will forever be called Nazis.

    If you really want to help "white" people, and I see no indication from you that you do not. Help AE with his non-racial dissolution. He needs all the help he can get.
  91. @Mr. Rational

    Aren’t they in a better position to ask you to leave and go back?
     
    This isn't about who has been here longer.  The Solutreans, if they had any living descendants, would win that contest even over the so-called "Native Americans".  It's about who is part of America and who is merely a US citizen or not even that, just a resident.

    Africans-in-America are not PART of America.  They are part of Africa and must go back.

    The median black in America is 15%-20% European by descent. In that sense they’re alien to Africa. too, aren’t they?

    • Replies: @dfordoom

    The median black in America is 15%-20% European by descent. In that sense they’re alien to Africa. too, aren’t they?
     
    Since their original tribal identities have been dissolved I'd say they'd be very alien indeed to Africa.
    , @MikeatMikedotMike
    And I've read that humans share 90% of the genes that pigs do. Are you ready to move into a sty?
    , @MikeatMikedotMike
    Do European descendants get a country of their own? Yes or No.
    , @Mr. Rational
    If they're going to be alien and alienated no matter where they are, let them be that way somewhere else.  (I have a very advanced case of N**ro Fatigue.)
  92. @The Anti-Gnostic
    A dollar collapse–something I think is coming shockingly soon–will force the issue on the national debt.

    Apparently it all nearly came apart in 2008. But we printed money, bought the distressed assets with it (they are, I believe, mostly still tucked away on the Fed's balance sheet but it's all pretty opaque), and here we are 11 years later rocking right along.

    Wealthy people are willing to pay the government to borrow their money instead of the other way around. Government debt is the equivalent of gold ingots, which have storage costs. These are presumably very smart, connected people. They don't see a problem with $22T debt.

    I've heard all my life that the collapse is coming. My esteemed father tells me he's heard it all his life too, but here we are. What is money at this point? Why are we still taxing labor?

    Is it possible our baseline productivity is high enough that we've hit Post-Scarcity and the debt really and truly does not matter? I don't see how but nobody with money, including the people with LOTS of it, is acting like the debt is a problem. If we really have hit Post-Scarcity, then I say we vote for the Chinese technocrat and give me my #YangBucks.

    Economic growth has been slower from the 2008 crash to today than it was from the 2001 crash to the 2008 crash, and it was lower during that period than it was between 1987 and 2001. This is the first ‘recovery’ where the Fed has utterly failed to normalize interest rates to something above free money. Now the Fed is beginning the cut towards zero. We’re stalling out now. We’ll be dropping shortly.

  93. @Intelligent Dasein

    I’ve heard all my life that the collapse is coming...
     
    The collapse isn't "coming." It's here---now. It's just that the losses are so socialized that the frog is boiling rather than getting skewered outright. The collapse is manifesting itself in the slow and steady erosion of purchasing power; in stagnant wages; in the relentless rise in the cost of housing, education, and healthcare; and in the depreciation of capital assets that aren't being repaired or replaced. The economy isn't growing, but it's maintaining a semblance of activity by liquidating the stored value of everything.

    Right now we're riding a tiger of financial repression. Artificially low interest rates are the key to the entire puzzle. We know that if we were to let interest rates normalize then the whole jig would be up, the massive debt would be unserviceable, and the depression we've been living in for the last decade would suddenly appear in Stay Puft proportions.

    My guess is that as long as the Baby Boomers are still alive and compos mentis in electorally significant proportions, the low interest rate regime will continue in order to preserve their nominal asset values. Once their feeble old hands lose their grip on the levers of power, the whole thing falls apart.

    If a currency crisis comes before the boomers have ridden off into the sunset, they be forced to see the chickens they raised return home to roost.

  94. @Justvisiting

    A dollar collapse–something I think is coming shockingly soon–will force the issue on the national debt.
     
    A dollar collapse would just mean that .gov would default on its debt to foreigners.

    It would have dire economic consequences for sure, but there is no reason to believe the central government would quietly disband as a result.

    A military dictatorship (with even _more_ centralized control and abuse of surveillance technology) would be the most likely near-term outcome imho.

    One good strategy is to oppose 5G--when the country is broke .gov won't be able to afford to install it--we do _not_ want that surveillance technology available to them.

    Defaulting on foreign debt would be the ‘best’ move but the Fed seems only seems capable of a single response–“quantitative easing”. They’ll flood the market and pay in worthless notes before officially defaulting.

  95. @Anounder
    Britain is far more coherent of a country than Murica. No matter how much a Scot might resent the English, no proper Scot sees Kunta Kinte as more of his kin than Nigel.

    Britain is also a far smaller country with no obvious points for populations to try segregating themselves into. Murica's size lends itself to auto-segregation.

    Britain is far more coherent of a country than Murica. No matter how much a Scot might resent the English, no proper Scot sees Kunta Kinte as more of his kin than Nigel.

    That’s why it would be much easier for Britain to break up. England would not need to destroy an independent Scotland as a dangerous ideological enemy full of evil Nazis.

    Hatreds in Britain are entirely and openly class hatreds. Scottish independence would not interfere with the favourite pastime of English elites – hating the working class.

    The main driving force behind a push for Scottish independence will be Scottish desire to rejoin the EU, if Brexit actually goes ahead (which seems unlikely).

    • Replies: @Anounder
    The Scots you speak of are those who treat being a Scot as a way to be PoCs and insist on narratives making them as big victims of the British Empire as Dot Indians.
  96. @Audacious Epigone
    The median black in America is 15%-20% European by descent. In that sense they're alien to Africa. too, aren't they?

    The median black in America is 15%-20% European by descent. In that sense they’re alien to Africa. too, aren’t they?

    Since their original tribal identities have been dissolved I’d say they’d be very alien indeed to Africa.

    • Replies: @Talha
    Plenty of whites in America have no clue what various European ethnicities they are comprised of either. Everyone in the US in mongrelized to one degree or another once they’ve been here long enough.

    Peace.
  97. @dfordoom

    The median black in America is 15%-20% European by descent. In that sense they’re alien to Africa. too, aren’t they?
     
    Since their original tribal identities have been dissolved I'd say they'd be very alien indeed to Africa.

    Plenty of whites in America have no clue what various European ethnicities they are comprised of either. Everyone in the US in mongrelized to one degree or another once they’ve been here long enough.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Anounder
    That's what makes White Nationalism or any other attempts to give Murica an identity beyond consumption and being special such a failure. The country was filled with mongrels early enough in its history. You can learn of compromises made when it came to citizenship. Which leads to torpedoing any later attempts to regulate immigration as those advocating such are quickly framed as selective/hypocritical.
  98. Plenty of whites in America have no clue what various European ethnicities they are comprised of either. Everyone in the US in mongrelized to one degree or another once they’ve been here long enough.

    The white nationalist assumption is that those vanished ethnic identities will be transmuted into a generic white identity. There is zero evidence for this.

    • Agree: iffen
    • Replies: @MikeatMikedotMike
    "The white nationalist assumption is that those vanished ethnic identities will be transmuted into a generic white identity. There is zero evidence for this."

    The only thing there is zero evidence for is that anyone has ever made this assumption. Where's YOUR evidence that you didn't just pull that theory right out of your own ass?
    , @Talha
    I agree that there really is no good, solid precedence for this.

    The only way I can see this actually happening is if the liberal-Left keeps insisting on playing their cards wrong and pushing anyone who is White into a corner with their unyielding critical race nonsense - which, let’s be honest, is also unprecedented. If Whites are basically “damned if they don’t”, I don’t see any reason why more and more of them won’t slowly tend towards white nationalism due to necessity.

    One reason I say that this is because I get new White converts following me on Twitter at the pace of about twice a week. And I honestly cannot believe the nonsense that they have to deal with when it comes to some of these far liberal-Left Muslims insisting that they own up to their White privilege and practically grovel in thanks to be let into the Ummah and want to deny them equal standing - I’ve even seen them be dismissive of White converts that studied for years and became scholars.

    Thank God, these converts have the moral fortitude to not respond in kind and become race-mongers. But, if pushed enough - again and again - I can see why an average white person would.

    Peace.
  99. @MikeatMikedotMike
    I don't blame you either, for not being able to discuss an issue honestly. Most cucks can't.

    for not being able to discuss an issue honestly

    But I can, Mikey.

    You do not want an “honest” discussion. You are just like the SJWs who say we need “a conversation about race.” What they (you) really mean is that you (me) should stop thinking about race the way you (I) do and start thinking about it the way that they (you) do.

    White nationalism is not going to happen. The peoples of Western Civilization (that civilization that you want to claim as your own) have been moving in the opposite direction by cultural and genetic evolution at least since the time of Christ. It hit hyper speed in the 16C and 17C. That’s a lot of generations ago. You should give serious consideration to what people like AE tell you about WEIRD people, he’s on to something. You are trying to create an ethos; something that normally takes hundreds or thousands of years. And the required hundreds or thousands of years is not even the main problem. The main impediment is that you are trying to create it out of peoples who have consciously and explicitly rejected race as a founding criterion for an ethos.

    The question of citizenship for black Americans was decided over 150 years ago and cost hundreds of thousands of lives. A miniscule number of people will be willing to sacrifice their life and the lives of their family and friends in order to relitigate the issue. Look at the difficulties Peter has recruiting cannon fodder on what should be somewhat favorable ground.

    Now, what you want is not completely impossible. A group of WEIRD people had a race based political entity less than a hundred years ago. You may have read about it. The reason that it was possible is because deeper, and under the WEIRD layer, the us/them dynamic is still within each person. Given favorable economic, political and social conditions, a charismatic leader can bring forth this dynamic to primacy. And given our herd/leader instinct, your race based entity can become a reality. But WEIRD people are smart and they know this. That is why you get called a Nazi, and why you and others like you will forever be called Nazis.

    If you really want to help “white” people, and I see no indication from you that you do not. Help AE with his non-racial dissolution. He needs all the help he can get.

    • Agree: Audacious Epigone
    • Replies: @MikeatMikedotMike
    Dissolution is as big a pipe dream as repatriation and I've admitted as much.

    You and AE are laboring under the delusion that dissolution will magically correct behaviors in other races that are observable, detrimental to any functional society, and will continue in whatever becomes of a dissolved US. You aren't willing to address it. You actively avoid it. You must fall back on disingenuous, Hitler invoking slurs (WN) because your case is that weak. That's the SJW way - when all else fails, invoke Hitler.

    Further, you're willing to subject your descendants to it, so that you can present yourself as morally superior in the present. Anyone willing to exchange the welfare of their kids for some cheap morality points is not so moral at all. But hey, better dead than rude.
  100. @Audacious Epigone
    When I'm asked about my political orientation, the answer I'm most fond of giving is "localist". Let the shires do their own thing.

    Such a classically British answer. It’s what our Constitution grew out of.

  101. @Audacious Epigone
    The median black in America is 15%-20% European by descent. In that sense they're alien to Africa. too, aren't they?

    And I’ve read that humans share 90% of the genes that pigs do. Are you ready to move into a sty?

    • Replies: @L Woods
    Move? This is the Current Year — we all live in one
  102. @dfordoom

    Plenty of whites in America have no clue what various European ethnicities they are comprised of either. Everyone in the US in mongrelized to one degree or another once they’ve been here long enough.
     
    The white nationalist assumption is that those vanished ethnic identities will be transmuted into a generic white identity. There is zero evidence for this.

    “The white nationalist assumption is that those vanished ethnic identities will be transmuted into a generic white identity. There is zero evidence for this.”

    The only thing there is zero evidence for is that anyone has ever made this assumption. Where’s YOUR evidence that you didn’t just pull that theory right out of your own ass?

  103. @iffen
    for not being able to discuss an issue honestly

    But I can, Mikey.

    You do not want an "honest" discussion. You are just like the SJWs who say we need "a conversation about race." What they (you) really mean is that you (me) should stop thinking about race the way you (I) do and start thinking about it the way that they (you) do.

    White nationalism is not going to happen. The peoples of Western Civilization (that civilization that you want to claim as your own) have been moving in the opposite direction by cultural and genetic evolution at least since the time of Christ. It hit hyper speed in the 16C and 17C. That's a lot of generations ago. You should give serious consideration to what people like AE tell you about WEIRD people, he's on to something. You are trying to create an ethos; something that normally takes hundreds or thousands of years. And the required hundreds or thousands of years is not even the main problem. The main impediment is that you are trying to create it out of peoples who have consciously and explicitly rejected race as a founding criterion for an ethos.

    The question of citizenship for black Americans was decided over 150 years ago and cost hundreds of thousands of lives. A miniscule number of people will be willing to sacrifice their life and the lives of their family and friends in order to relitigate the issue. Look at the difficulties Peter has recruiting cannon fodder on what should be somewhat favorable ground.

    Now, what you want is not completely impossible. A group of WEIRD people had a race based political entity less than a hundred years ago. You may have read about it. The reason that it was possible is because deeper, and under the WEIRD layer, the us/them dynamic is still within each person. Given favorable economic, political and social conditions, a charismatic leader can bring forth this dynamic to primacy. And given our herd/leader instinct, your race based entity can become a reality. But WEIRD people are smart and they know this. That is why you get called a Nazi, and why you and others like you will forever be called Nazis.

    If you really want to help "white" people, and I see no indication from you that you do not. Help AE with his non-racial dissolution. He needs all the help he can get.

    Dissolution is as big a pipe dream as repatriation and I’ve admitted as much.

    You and AE are laboring under the delusion that dissolution will magically correct behaviors in other races that are observable, detrimental to any functional society, and will continue in whatever becomes of a dissolved US. You aren’t willing to address it. You actively avoid it. You must fall back on disingenuous, Hitler invoking slurs (WN) because your case is that weak. That’s the SJW way – when all else fails, invoke Hitler.

    Further, you’re willing to subject your descendants to it, so that you can present yourself as morally superior in the present. Anyone willing to exchange the welfare of their kids for some cheap morality points is not so moral at all. But hey, better dead than rude.

    • Agree: L Woods
    • Replies: @iffen
    I've done my best for you.

    Just like I decided to leave AaronB alone with his jar of moonbeams and lightning bugs, I will leave you alone with your WN fantasy.
    , @Audacious Epigone
    It is not as big a pipe dream, though. It's seriously discussed in major center-left outlets like New York Magazine and 538. It has significant support--and that support does not exhibit much of a partisan skew (the gap is generational more than anything else).

    Repatriation of non-citizens is on the very edge of possibility. Highly unlikely, but it could happen.

    Repatriation of citizens, though? That's a pipe dream.

    I assure you my posterity is always at the forefront of my mind.
  104. @Audacious Epigone
    The median black in America is 15%-20% European by descent. In that sense they're alien to Africa. too, aren't they?

    Do European descendants get a country of their own? Yes or No.

    • Replies: @dfordoom

    Do European descendants get a country of their own? Yes or No.
     
    If you mean a country of their own inhabited exclusively by such European descendants, in other words exclusive ethnostates, it's not clear that most European descendants want such a thing.

    Of course it's entirely possible that European descendants are suffering from what Marxists might term false consciousness, that maybe they should want pure European ethnostates but they've been convinced that they don't want that. If that's true I'm not sure what you can do about it. To get rid of that false consciousness you'd have to seize control of the education system and the media. I have no idea how you're going to do that.

    But at this point in time European descendants do not appear to have much interest in having an ethnostate.
    , @Audacious Epigone
    If they want it, sure. If a majority of the 200 million+ European-descended Americans wanted a state of their own, they could have it. Who would stop them? But the vast majority don't, and as long as they're WEIRDOs, they won't. Each of the letters of that acronym--Western, educated, industialized, rich, democratic, and outbred--could change in time, and then support for an ethnostate may arise (ie among the Amish a century down the road, when they make up 10% of the North American population). Probably not before then.
  105. @MikeatMikedotMike
    Do European descendants get a country of their own? Yes or No.

    Do European descendants get a country of their own? Yes or No.

    If you mean a country of their own inhabited exclusively by such European descendants, in other words exclusive ethnostates, it’s not clear that most European descendants want such a thing.

    Of course it’s entirely possible that European descendants are suffering from what Marxists might term false consciousness, that maybe they should want pure European ethnostates but they’ve been convinced that they don’t want that. If that’s true I’m not sure what you can do about it. To get rid of that false consciousness you’d have to seize control of the education system and the media. I have no idea how you’re going to do that.

    But at this point in time European descendants do not appear to have much interest in having an ethnostate.

    • Replies: @Mr. Rational

    at this point in time European descendants do not appear to have much interest in having an ethnostate.
     
    The Poles and Hungarians seem to be most of the way there.  La Lega (formerly Lega Nord) seems implicitly ethno-statist from what little I've seen.
    , @MikeatMikedotMike
    You didn't answer the question. :0

    But to your point about education, well if we are going to theorize about dissolution or secession or repatriation, or any other unlikely monumental country changing event, it's safe to ponder the ancillary issues, like education, military, economy, whatever.

    Clearly, to enlighten the masses about the benefits of any of the above, the educational system would have to be turned completely around. Since I think we can all agree that isn't happening, then neither are any of the above.

    It's going to be a slow descent until the wheels come off and then it's going to be chaos.
  106. @MikeatMikedotMike
    Dissolution is as big a pipe dream as repatriation and I've admitted as much.

    You and AE are laboring under the delusion that dissolution will magically correct behaviors in other races that are observable, detrimental to any functional society, and will continue in whatever becomes of a dissolved US. You aren't willing to address it. You actively avoid it. You must fall back on disingenuous, Hitler invoking slurs (WN) because your case is that weak. That's the SJW way - when all else fails, invoke Hitler.

    Further, you're willing to subject your descendants to it, so that you can present yourself as morally superior in the present. Anyone willing to exchange the welfare of their kids for some cheap morality points is not so moral at all. But hey, better dead than rude.

    I’ve done my best for you.

    Just like I decided to leave AaronB alone with his jar of moonbeams and lightning bugs, I will leave you alone with your WN fantasy.

    • Replies: @L Woods
    Preening old fools like you are precisely why a livable country is a “fantasy.” Enjoy your Diverse nursing staff — I’m sure they’ll take real good care of you, showing you as much love as you’ve shown your descendants
  107. @dfordoom

    Plenty of whites in America have no clue what various European ethnicities they are comprised of either. Everyone in the US in mongrelized to one degree or another once they’ve been here long enough.
     
    The white nationalist assumption is that those vanished ethnic identities will be transmuted into a generic white identity. There is zero evidence for this.

    I agree that there really is no good, solid precedence for this.

    The only way I can see this actually happening is if the liberal-Left keeps insisting on playing their cards wrong and pushing anyone who is White into a corner with their unyielding critical race nonsense – which, let’s be honest, is also unprecedented. If Whites are basically “damned if they don’t”, I don’t see any reason why more and more of them won’t slowly tend towards white nationalism due to necessity.

    One reason I say that this is because I get new White converts following me on Twitter at the pace of about twice a week. And I honestly cannot believe the nonsense that they have to deal with when it comes to some of these far liberal-Left Muslims insisting that they own up to their White privilege and practically grovel in thanks to be let into the Ummah and want to deny them equal standing – I’ve even seen them be dismissive of White converts that studied for years and became scholars.

    Thank God, these converts have the moral fortitude to not respond in kind and become race-mongers. But, if pushed enough – again and again – I can see why an average white person would.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
    Would you mind sharing handle? If not, I completely understand.
  108. @Audacious Epigone
    The median black in America is 15%-20% European by descent. In that sense they're alien to Africa. too, aren't they?

    If they’re going to be alien and alienated no matter where they are, let them be that way somewhere else.  (I have a very advanced case of N**ro Fatigue.)

    • Replies: @MikeatMikedotMike
    "I have a very advanced case of N**ro Fatigue."

    So does just about every non negro who has the displeasure of living near or working with them on a regular basis. The problem is most of these people will never admit it to anyone, not even their loved ones, out of fear of being called racist. That's how effective the indoctrination has been, at least for those born and educated in the US.

    The people I know personally who hold these altruistic and egalitarian views about blacks don't live anywhere near them. They don't work with them. They don't go to the same churches, they don't shop at the same stores, and they seek entertainment in places that are either able to price out most of the blacks or just haven't been discovered by blacks yet. Leftist are very good at finding ways to completely avoid those blacks whom they so pretend to love.
  109. @dfordoom

    Do European descendants get a country of their own? Yes or No.
     
    If you mean a country of their own inhabited exclusively by such European descendants, in other words exclusive ethnostates, it's not clear that most European descendants want such a thing.

    Of course it's entirely possible that European descendants are suffering from what Marxists might term false consciousness, that maybe they should want pure European ethnostates but they've been convinced that they don't want that. If that's true I'm not sure what you can do about it. To get rid of that false consciousness you'd have to seize control of the education system and the media. I have no idea how you're going to do that.

    But at this point in time European descendants do not appear to have much interest in having an ethnostate.

    at this point in time European descendants do not appear to have much interest in having an ethnostate.

    The Poles and Hungarians seem to be most of the way there.  La Lega (formerly Lega Nord) seems implicitly ethno-statist from what little I’ve seen.

    • Replies: @dfordoom


    at this point in time European descendants do not appear to have much interest in having an ethnostate.
     
    The Poles and Hungarians seem to be most of the way there.
     
    It's easier for them because Poland is full of Poles and Hungary is full of Hungarians. This is a result of historical good fortune - they were lucky enough to be part of the eastern bloc and therefore sheltered from western craziness until quite recently. Because of that stroke of luck their national/ethnic identity has not yet been dissolved.

    In counties like the U.S. and Canada and Australia any coherent ethnic identities were dissolved long ago. The white inhabitants of the U.S., Canada and Australia have already been rootless cosmopolitans for several generations. And their national identities have been pretty much dissolved as well.

    If you already have a strong identity you have at least some chance of preserving it, but once your identity has been lost you can't regain it and it's very doubtful if you can replace it with a new artificial identity.

    And to be honest, in the long term the odds are stacked against the Poles and the Hungarians. They are EU members. The EU has no intention of allowing them to preserve their national identities. The U.S. has no intention of allowing those countries to preserve their national identities. Global capitalism has no intention of allowing those countries to preserve their national identities.
  110. Perhaps relevant to the conversation. Much of this discussion seems downhill from the furthering collapse of religion in society. De Tocqueville had an interesting take on the matter:
    “When no authority exists in matters of religion, any more than in political matters, men soon become frightened in the face of unlimited independence. With everything in a perpetual state of agitation, they become anxious and fatigued. With the world of the intellect in universal flux, they want every-thing in the material realm, at least, to he firm and stable, and, unable to resume their former beliefs, they subject themselves to a master. For my part, I doubt that man can ever tolerate both complete religious independence and total political liberty, and I am inclined to think that if he has no faith, he must serve, and if he is free, he must believe.”
    Alexis de Tocqueville, the First Social Scientist (Cambridge Univ. Press)

    Peace.

    • Replies: @dfordoom

    "For my part, I doubt that man can ever tolerate both complete religious independence and total political liberty, and I am inclined to think that if he has no faith, he must serve, and if he is free, he must believe."
     
    Interesting quote. It seems that the collapse of religion may have some unexpected unintended consequences.

    I'm inclined to agree with de Tocqueville. Without religion people suddenly become very interested in political ideologies as a source of meaning in life.
  111. @Mr. Rational
    If they're going to be alien and alienated no matter where they are, let them be that way somewhere else.  (I have a very advanced case of N**ro Fatigue.)

    “I have a very advanced case of N**ro Fatigue.”

    So does just about every non negro who has the displeasure of living near or working with them on a regular basis. The problem is most of these people will never admit it to anyone, not even their loved ones, out of fear of being called racist. That’s how effective the indoctrination has been, at least for those born and educated in the US.

    The people I know personally who hold these altruistic and egalitarian views about blacks don’t live anywhere near them. They don’t work with them. They don’t go to the same churches, they don’t shop at the same stores, and they seek entertainment in places that are either able to price out most of the blacks or just haven’t been discovered by blacks yet. Leftist are very good at finding ways to completely avoid those blacks whom they so pretend to love.

  112. @dfordoom

    Do European descendants get a country of their own? Yes or No.
     
    If you mean a country of their own inhabited exclusively by such European descendants, in other words exclusive ethnostates, it's not clear that most European descendants want such a thing.

    Of course it's entirely possible that European descendants are suffering from what Marxists might term false consciousness, that maybe they should want pure European ethnostates but they've been convinced that they don't want that. If that's true I'm not sure what you can do about it. To get rid of that false consciousness you'd have to seize control of the education system and the media. I have no idea how you're going to do that.

    But at this point in time European descendants do not appear to have much interest in having an ethnostate.

    You didn’t answer the question. :0

    But to your point about education, well if we are going to theorize about dissolution or secession or repatriation, or any other unlikely monumental country changing event, it’s safe to ponder the ancillary issues, like education, military, economy, whatever.

    Clearly, to enlighten the masses about the benefits of any of the above, the educational system would have to be turned completely around. Since I think we can all agree that isn’t happening, then neither are any of the above.

    It’s going to be a slow descent until the wheels come off and then it’s going to be chaos.

    • Replies: @dfordoom

    You didn’t answer the question. :0
     
    The question being - do European descendants get a country of their own? Yes or No. My answer would be that it would be nice if they did, but it's unlikely to happen. It's unlikely to happen because those European descendants don't want it enough to make it happen.
  113. @Audacious Epigone
    The violent crime rate in the US is barely half what it was less than thirty years ago. Thirty years ago it was five times higher than it was thirty years before that! Putting guilty people in cages and insane people in institutions is a great way to drastically reduce crime rates. The racial disparities will still be there, of course, but the total crime rate can be mitigated.

    Studies indicate that people spent far more time outside in the 80’s and early 90’s then they do now; in other words, a major reason crime dipped after 1994 is simply because people were not getting out anymore. And that includes criminals, also. Normal people had more of a life back, but criminals also had more vim and vigor too. So we had more crime and individual violence.

    And it’s clear that many factors besides crime are important, but which are mostly or totally independent of the nominal crime rate. People had more friends, and trusted each other more, back in the 80’s.

    Retroactively, a lot of Boomers try to make the 80’s (or early 90’s) out to be this sort of Hieronymus Bosch painting of home invaders and street gangs. But in reality, American were psychologically healthier back then, and had more interesting lives.

  114. @Audacious Epigone
    The violent crime rate in the US is barely half what it was less than thirty years ago. Thirty years ago it was five times higher than it was thirty years before that! Putting guilty people in cages and insane people in institutions is a great way to drastically reduce crime rates. The racial disparities will still be there, of course, but the total crime rate can be mitigated.

    Crime substantially rose in the UK, America, and Russia in the 1990’s. It remained high in the UK and Russia throughout the decade, but petered out in the 2000’s. Incarceration trends in both places didn’t change all that much from the 80’s-2000’s, so some other variable must explain why crime rose then fell; I suspect that Russians and Brits just got out more often in the 90’s, which emboldened criminals to some degree. Then people started to “cocoon” in the 2000’s, which brought crime down, and this has little to do with incarceration trends.

    In America, crime begin to fall in the late 90’s, but this lagged behind the growing incarceration rates of the mid 80’s by about 10 years. I suspect that Americans “cocooned” at an earlier date than Europeans did, thus explaining why we were able to reduce crime 5 years before Russia or Britian.

  115. @216
    O/T

    Guide to the Chapo Tier

    https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/11/precariat-global-class-rise-of-populism/

    The first faction consists of those who have fallen from old working-class communities or families. They feel they do not have what their parents or peers had. They may be called atavists, since they look backwards, feeling deprived of a real or imagined past. Not having much education, they listen to populist sirens who play on their fears and blame “the other” – migrants, refugees, foreigners, or some other group easily demonized
     

    The second group are nostalgics. These consist of migrants and beleaguered minorities, who feel deprived of a present time, a home, a belonging. Recognizing their supplicant status, mostly they keep their heads down politically. But occasionally the pressures become too great and they explode in days of rage. It would be churlish to blame them.
     
    Four legs good, two legs bad.

    This, our lovable forum leftists, either sidesteap or wish away.

    My eyes glaze over when I see the typical bull-shit about how the mid-20th century was “over-rated” and otherwise unpleasant. Today’s younger Leftists neither lived through that era nor do they have the empathy to put themselves in the shoes of those who lived it. Objectively speaking, the average America was doing much better in the 1940’s-1960’s then they are now. That’s not “imagined”, that’s the truth.

    And America experienced a “left” turn in the 1920’s, which created gradual improvements to people’s lives from that point forward. And these gains wouldn’t begin to stagnate until the mid-70’s, after which we were able to coast to some degree until elites began jacking up living expenses big time in the late 90’s.

  116. @Talha
    Plenty of whites in America have no clue what various European ethnicities they are comprised of either. Everyone in the US in mongrelized to one degree or another once they’ve been here long enough.

    Peace.

    That’s what makes White Nationalism or any other attempts to give Murica an identity beyond consumption and being special such a failure. The country was filled with mongrels early enough in its history. You can learn of compromises made when it came to citizenship. Which leads to torpedoing any later attempts to regulate immigration as those advocating such are quickly framed as selective/hypocritical.

  117. @dfordoom

    Britain is far more coherent of a country than Murica. No matter how much a Scot might resent the English, no proper Scot sees Kunta Kinte as more of his kin than Nigel.
     
    That's why it would be much easier for Britain to break up. England would not need to destroy an independent Scotland as a dangerous ideological enemy full of evil Nazis.

    Hatreds in Britain are entirely and openly class hatreds. Scottish independence would not interfere with the favourite pastime of English elites - hating the working class.

    The main driving force behind a push for Scottish independence will be Scottish desire to rejoin the EU, if Brexit actually goes ahead (which seems unlikely).

    The Scots you speak of are those who treat being a Scot as a way to be PoCs and insist on narratives making them as big victims of the British Empire as Dot Indians.

  118. @MikeatMikedotMike
    " Mass population exchange was a darker event when it occurred in the the past century in large part because most people’s livelihoods were still tied to the land; in a modern economy, it needn’t be anything more than just another move. "

    It's funny you know - the supporters of "dissolution" will enthusiastically endorse massive displacement of heritage American stock as no big deal, then in the same sentence clutch at their pearls when presented with the idea of repatriation, because "We can't make these people move! It's immoral!"

    "Dissolution" is more popular (relative to repatriation) with people for the same reason so many other social engineering concepts are popular relative to the alternative: It allows people to virtue signal without having to face the realities and hard choices required to properly address the issue.

    I’m a supporter of dissolution and of repatriation. If we could repatriate the post-1965 immigrants, dissolution probably wouldn’t be desirable. But I see no way that repatriation will happen in the US as now constituted. Hence, dissolution is the only alternative to tyranny.

  119. @anon
    "My take: sooner or later somebody will stomp on the “right” side of that talking."

    Perhaps, perhaps not. Perhaps they will overplay their hand and get stomped in return. In any case, white males are really the only demographic keeping this worldwide empire going - overwhelming majority of the best commanding officers, over 90% of fighter pilots, over 80% of combat casualties in Afghanistan, virtually all of the special forces, the best cultural exporters (directors, game developers, etc), nuclear power plant engineers, power line workers, defense industry engineers, etc etc etc. The right side of that equation need not even win to effectively sabotage the empire's long-term prospects. Just demoralize that demographic and that's it. Call it posthumous revenge. China displaces the US as the globe's preeminent power and the POC coalition then experiences a dramatic reduction in living standards; they then mercilessly stomp on the rich white left that empowered them in the first place. That could be how the US ends ... with every guilty party getting their just desserts.

    Just demoralize that demographic and that’s it.

    I’d say

    Just have enough of that demographics “converted” to “our” side and that’s it. Not more than 30 % should be enough.

  120. He subsequently asserts that Trump only won the presidential election due to voter suppression.

    Voter suppression is gonna happen again in 2020 for sure. The mass murder of mexicans in El Paso today was motivated by the desire to keep Texas Red. Texas is on the verge of going Blue which would be a devastating blow to Republicans. All eyes will be on Texas in 2020.

    What you all are promoting is the shrinking, weakening and impoverishing of America.

    Looking at the bigger picture the contraction of the Anglosphere will begin with Scotland choosing the EU after Brexit.

  121. Try a mainstreamable novel to excite interest.

    Possible titles: America 2.0, America 2029, Escape to Cascadia, The Rights of Americans, etc.

    Description: Alternate future in a new nation-state, Cascadia, carved out of a post-devolutionary America. Characters and plot are rudimentary, and used mostly to illustrate the thinking that lies behind separationism.

    Any 25-year-olds with lit skills, some time on their hands, and a taste for political thinking?

    Thanks to all for the comments above.

    • Replies: @peterAUS
    Good idea.
    , @Audacious Epigone
    That would definitely be something I'd review for UR.
  122. @Audacious Epigone
    Albeit speaking only for myself, I've no problem with voluntary repatriation. There are countries that have done it with non-citizens, often pairing it with a one-time payment. But forcing citizens out is repugnant to the vast majority of Americans, whites and non-whites alike.

    The vast majority of Americans are moral cowards. As ever when dealing with such cattle, it takes a vanguard to steer them towards what’s best for them.

  123. @MikeatMikedotMike
    And I've read that humans share 90% of the genes that pigs do. Are you ready to move into a sty?

    Move? This is the Current Year — we all live in one

  124. @iffen
    I've done my best for you.

    Just like I decided to leave AaronB alone with his jar of moonbeams and lightning bugs, I will leave you alone with your WN fantasy.

    Preening old fools like you are precisely why a livable country is a “fantasy.” Enjoy your Diverse nursing staff — I’m sure they’ll take real good care of you, showing you as much love as you’ve shown your descendants

  125. @JackOH
    Try a mainstreamable novel to excite interest.

    Possible titles: America 2.0, America 2029, Escape to Cascadia, The Rights of Americans, etc.

    Description: Alternate future in a new nation-state, Cascadia, carved out of a post-devolutionary America. Characters and plot are rudimentary, and used mostly to illustrate the thinking that lies behind separationism.

    Any 25-year-olds with lit skills, some time on their hands, and a taste for political thinking?

    Thanks to all for the comments above.

    Good idea.

  126. @anon
    I can see scenarios where California, feeling its power and angry at middle America for electing another Trump, decides to secede. There would be a gradual move that way, such as sanctuary cities defying federal law as they do now, and eventually secession. If the big California goes, other blue states would follow.
    I do not see any scenarios where red states secede. Conservative voters are by nature loyal to the USA as they have known it.
    Will red state loyal Americans stand by and allow secession? There will be a strong case to deal with secession as treason.
    It is foolhardy to think secession will be peaceful, or that the newly formed splinter countries would peacefully co-exist. Ideological hatreds will only intensify. Expect a racial and ethnic scramble for power. Money and guns will be up for grabs. There will be winners and losers and the losers will want revenge.
    Washington and Hollywood elites are not the only ones out of touch with reality. Audacious Epigone and the bloggers on this site are also living in an unreal idea bubble.
    Americans will not tolerate the break up of their country. They will not stomach treason. Outside the fake political debate bubble, real Americans still have the fortitude to go to war for their country.

    Going the military route is a pretty good gig–few out-of-pocket expenses, travel as part of the job, technical training, retired with lifelong benefits at 40–yet the US has run short on the number of soldiers it wants for several years now. Millennials and Zoomers won’t fight for the country.

    The political dissolution gap is much more a generational one than a political one. Young people–Republicans, Democrats, independents–are all more supportive of it than older people are.

  127. @anon
    "My take: sooner or later somebody will stomp on the “right” side of that talking."

    Perhaps, perhaps not. Perhaps they will overplay their hand and get stomped in return. In any case, white males are really the only demographic keeping this worldwide empire going - overwhelming majority of the best commanding officers, over 90% of fighter pilots, over 80% of combat casualties in Afghanistan, virtually all of the special forces, the best cultural exporters (directors, game developers, etc), nuclear power plant engineers, power line workers, defense industry engineers, etc etc etc. The right side of that equation need not even win to effectively sabotage the empire's long-term prospects. Just demoralize that demographic and that's it. Call it posthumous revenge. China displaces the US as the globe's preeminent power and the POC coalition then experiences a dramatic reduction in living standards; they then mercilessly stomp on the rich white left that empowered them in the first place. That could be how the US ends ... with every guilty party getting their just desserts.

    The future is already China’s. That ship has sailed. The question is whether or not there remains some relatively developed, relatively functional state with regional influence left on either of the American continents by the end of the century.

  128. @MikeatMikedotMike
    Dissolution is as big a pipe dream as repatriation and I've admitted as much.

    You and AE are laboring under the delusion that dissolution will magically correct behaviors in other races that are observable, detrimental to any functional society, and will continue in whatever becomes of a dissolved US. You aren't willing to address it. You actively avoid it. You must fall back on disingenuous, Hitler invoking slurs (WN) because your case is that weak. That's the SJW way - when all else fails, invoke Hitler.

    Further, you're willing to subject your descendants to it, so that you can present yourself as morally superior in the present. Anyone willing to exchange the welfare of their kids for some cheap morality points is not so moral at all. But hey, better dead than rude.

    It is not as big a pipe dream, though. It’s seriously discussed in major center-left outlets like New York Magazine and 538. It has significant support–and that support does not exhibit much of a partisan skew (the gap is generational more than anything else).

    Repatriation of non-citizens is on the very edge of possibility. Highly unlikely, but it could happen.

    Repatriation of citizens, though? That’s a pipe dream.

    I assure you my posterity is always at the forefront of my mind.

  129. @MikeatMikedotMike
    Do European descendants get a country of their own? Yes or No.

    If they want it, sure. If a majority of the 200 million+ European-descended Americans wanted a state of their own, they could have it. Who would stop them? But the vast majority don’t, and as long as they’re WEIRDOs, they won’t. Each of the letters of that acronym–Western, educated, industialized, rich, democratic, and outbred–could change in time, and then support for an ethnostate may arise (ie among the Amish a century down the road, when they make up 10% of the North American population). Probably not before then.

    • Replies: @MikeatMikedotMike
    "If they want it, sure. If a majority of the 200 million+ European-descended Americans wanted a state of their own, they could have it. Who would stop them? "

    I dunno, maybe being taught from the moment they are born they they don't deserve it? And that taken pride in themselves and their history is the most evil thing possible? How else have small groups of people in power maintained control over the masses? By convincing the masses that they have no power.

    But to be clear, your position is that those 200 million really prefer to have to have control of the country they are in taken over by the non European-descended horde?
  130. @Talha
    I agree that there really is no good, solid precedence for this.

    The only way I can see this actually happening is if the liberal-Left keeps insisting on playing their cards wrong and pushing anyone who is White into a corner with their unyielding critical race nonsense - which, let’s be honest, is also unprecedented. If Whites are basically “damned if they don’t”, I don’t see any reason why more and more of them won’t slowly tend towards white nationalism due to necessity.

    One reason I say that this is because I get new White converts following me on Twitter at the pace of about twice a week. And I honestly cannot believe the nonsense that they have to deal with when it comes to some of these far liberal-Left Muslims insisting that they own up to their White privilege and practically grovel in thanks to be let into the Ummah and want to deny them equal standing - I’ve even seen them be dismissive of White converts that studied for years and became scholars.

    Thank God, these converts have the moral fortitude to not respond in kind and become race-mongers. But, if pushed enough - again and again - I can see why an average white person would.

    Peace.

    Would you mind sharing handle? If not, I completely understand.

    • Replies: @Talha
    Sorry, you’re going to have to take my word on this one. Too many pieces of info on various platforms makes it difficult to maintain a decent level of anonymity. I eventually plan to become more public, but this first requires a level of financial independence.

    Thanks for understanding.

    Peace.
  131. @Audacious Epigone
    If they want it, sure. If a majority of the 200 million+ European-descended Americans wanted a state of their own, they could have it. Who would stop them? But the vast majority don't, and as long as they're WEIRDOs, they won't. Each of the letters of that acronym--Western, educated, industialized, rich, democratic, and outbred--could change in time, and then support for an ethnostate may arise (ie among the Amish a century down the road, when they make up 10% of the North American population). Probably not before then.

    “If they want it, sure. If a majority of the 200 million+ European-descended Americans wanted a state of their own, they could have it. Who would stop them? ”

    I dunno, maybe being taught from the moment they are born they they don’t deserve it? And that taken pride in themselves and their history is the most evil thing possible? How else have small groups of people in power maintained control over the masses? By convincing the masses that they have no power.

    But to be clear, your position is that those 200 million really prefer to have to have control of the country they are in taken over by the non European-descended horde?

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
    At the risk of sounding ridiculous, it's an open question. This is where we win hearts and minds. Italy, Hungary, even Austria--there is more than just hope, there is precedence.
  132. @anon
    I can see scenarios where California, feeling its power and angry at middle America for electing another Trump, decides to secede. There would be a gradual move that way, such as sanctuary cities defying federal law as they do now, and eventually secession. If the big California goes, other blue states would follow.
    I do not see any scenarios where red states secede. Conservative voters are by nature loyal to the USA as they have known it.
    Will red state loyal Americans stand by and allow secession? There will be a strong case to deal with secession as treason.
    It is foolhardy to think secession will be peaceful, or that the newly formed splinter countries would peacefully co-exist. Ideological hatreds will only intensify. Expect a racial and ethnic scramble for power. Money and guns will be up for grabs. There will be winners and losers and the losers will want revenge.
    Washington and Hollywood elites are not the only ones out of touch with reality. Audacious Epigone and the bloggers on this site are also living in an unreal idea bubble.
    Americans will not tolerate the break up of their country. They will not stomach treason. Outside the fake political debate bubble, real Americans still have the fortitude to go to war for their country.

    “Their country.” Lmao. Wake up dumbass

  133. @anon
    It's good that this conversation has finally started. I hope it picks up. Dissolution can happen if we talk about it enough. Radical political action may not be necessary if the effort is mutual. Personally, I'd like nothing more than the chance to destroy and discredit the progressive white left and all its orthodoxy through partition. Once red states are free, upperclass leftists in blue states will then be at the mercy of the POC coalition they created. Just like that white woman at the DCCC who had to resign because she's white, they'd immediately turn on the white left.* I could easily imagine the upperclass white left losing political power in a climate where they could no longer "otherize" normal whites elsewhere, pitting minorities against them for imagined racial slights while the left continues segregating themselves in racially pure, financially exclusive abodes like Malibu.

    *In this one respect, I think it is legitimate to wonder whether the deepstate will really let red states go. Sure, the dumb prole leftist masses might, but the upperclass has to be smart enough to realize they'd then be at the mercy of the diversity monster they created. Expect California to go Hispanic socialist a la Venezuela within maybe two decades of independence, chasing out many industries and wealthy families. Will the billionaires in California and NY tolerate that or will they organize a resistance of some sort? You'll notice that the Cal-Exit movement was quietly put down after Trump's victory. Also, efforts to break up California into multiple states - mirroring this same red/blue dynamic - was (unconstitutionally IMHO) put down by the same deepstate recently.

    Maybe that's why we're getting a new Top Gun movie with an apparently all-white main cast and a new Tarantino movie without black actors. Stoking the old white male civnattery machismo? Steve Sailer has quietly speculated for years that the deepstate exerts influence over the entertainment industry by noting that the popularity of Chinese movie imports tanked at around the same time that country became a serious economic competitor to the United States. Nevertheless, let's keep talking about the issue; maybe we can get this question into the democratic debates. I'd love to hear their answers. Afterwards, we can start imagining what kind of constitution and government we could have. Clearly, the current system no longer works.

    I could easily imagine the upperclass white left losing political power

    Elites do not relinquish power without a fight. There is absolutely no way the rich in modern western society are going to give up their power – we’re talking about an elite class that is remarkable for the extent of its arrogance and ruthlessness.

    I suspect that upper-class whites will in future avoid being seen to wield power directly. They will wield power through proxies and stooges. They will allow members of the Coalition of the Fringes to have the appearance of power without the substance. Rich whites will still be pulling all the strings behind the scenes.

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
    Is that the case with the squad? I don't think so. Frankenstein's monster is a crass comparison, but it's a useful one.
  134. @anon
    I can see scenarios where California, feeling its power and angry at middle America for electing another Trump, decides to secede. There would be a gradual move that way, such as sanctuary cities defying federal law as they do now, and eventually secession. If the big California goes, other blue states would follow.
    I do not see any scenarios where red states secede. Conservative voters are by nature loyal to the USA as they have known it.
    Will red state loyal Americans stand by and allow secession? There will be a strong case to deal with secession as treason.
    It is foolhardy to think secession will be peaceful, or that the newly formed splinter countries would peacefully co-exist. Ideological hatreds will only intensify. Expect a racial and ethnic scramble for power. Money and guns will be up for grabs. There will be winners and losers and the losers will want revenge.
    Washington and Hollywood elites are not the only ones out of touch with reality. Audacious Epigone and the bloggers on this site are also living in an unreal idea bubble.
    Americans will not tolerate the break up of their country. They will not stomach treason. Outside the fake political debate bubble, real Americans still have the fortitude to go to war for their country.

    I can see scenarios where California, feeling its power and angry at middle America for electing another Trump, decides to secede.

    Are you telling me that California’s elites would choose to become the elites of a middle-sized country with no real power? California has a smaller population than Italy or Spain. Its population is marginally bigger than Canada’s. So Californian elites will be happy to be the kingpins in a country with roughly the political significance of Canada?

    And if they secede how much of a military establishment will they be allowed to take with them? No country would be insane enough to allow a breakaway state to take nukes with it. So militarily they’ll be on a par with countries like Spain or Canada.

    These are people who see themselves as the destined rulers of the world. Not the destined rulers of a smallish country with no capacity to be a major player on the world stage.

  135. @Mr. Rational

    at this point in time European descendants do not appear to have much interest in having an ethnostate.
     
    The Poles and Hungarians seem to be most of the way there.  La Lega (formerly Lega Nord) seems implicitly ethno-statist from what little I've seen.

    at this point in time European descendants do not appear to have much interest in having an ethnostate.

    The Poles and Hungarians seem to be most of the way there.

    It’s easier for them because Poland is full of Poles and Hungary is full of Hungarians. This is a result of historical good fortune – they were lucky enough to be part of the eastern bloc and therefore sheltered from western craziness until quite recently. Because of that stroke of luck their national/ethnic identity has not yet been dissolved.

    In counties like the U.S. and Canada and Australia any coherent ethnic identities were dissolved long ago. The white inhabitants of the U.S., Canada and Australia have already been rootless cosmopolitans for several generations. And their national identities have been pretty much dissolved as well.

    If you already have a strong identity you have at least some chance of preserving it, but once your identity has been lost you can’t regain it and it’s very doubtful if you can replace it with a new artificial identity.

    And to be honest, in the long term the odds are stacked against the Poles and the Hungarians. They are EU members. The EU has no intention of allowing them to preserve their national identities. The U.S. has no intention of allowing those countries to preserve their national identities. Global capitalism has no intention of allowing those countries to preserve their national identities.

  136. @Audacious Epigone
    Would you mind sharing handle? If not, I completely understand.

    Sorry, you’re going to have to take my word on this one. Too many pieces of info on various platforms makes it difficult to maintain a decent level of anonymity. I eventually plan to become more public, but this first requires a level of financial independence.

    Thanks for understanding.

    Peace.

  137. @Talha
    Perhaps relevant to the conversation. Much of this discussion seems downhill from the furthering collapse of religion in society. De Tocqueville had an interesting take on the matter:
    "When no authority exists in matters of religion, any more than in political matters, men soon become frightened in the face of unlimited independence. With everything in a perpetual state of agitation, they become anxious and fatigued. With the world of the intellect in universal flux, they want every-thing in the material realm, at least, to he firm and stable, and, unable to resume their former beliefs, they subject themselves to a master. For my part, I doubt that man can ever tolerate both complete religious independence and total political liberty, and I am inclined to think that if he has no faith, he must serve, and if he is free, he must believe."
    Alexis de Tocqueville, the First Social Scientist (Cambridge Univ. Press)

    Peace.

    “For my part, I doubt that man can ever tolerate both complete religious independence and total political liberty, and I am inclined to think that if he has no faith, he must serve, and if he is free, he must believe.”

    Interesting quote. It seems that the collapse of religion may have some unexpected unintended consequences.

    I’m inclined to agree with de Tocqueville. Without religion people suddenly become very interested in political ideologies as a source of meaning in life.

  138. @MikeatMikedotMike
    You didn't answer the question. :0

    But to your point about education, well if we are going to theorize about dissolution or secession or repatriation, or any other unlikely monumental country changing event, it's safe to ponder the ancillary issues, like education, military, economy, whatever.

    Clearly, to enlighten the masses about the benefits of any of the above, the educational system would have to be turned completely around. Since I think we can all agree that isn't happening, then neither are any of the above.

    It's going to be a slow descent until the wheels come off and then it's going to be chaos.

    You didn’t answer the question. :0

    The question being – do European descendants get a country of their own? Yes or No. My answer would be that it would be nice if they did, but it’s unlikely to happen. It’s unlikely to happen because those European descendants don’t want it enough to make it happen.

  139. anon[374] • Disclaimer says:

    “The economy isn’t growing, but it’s maintaining a semblance of activity by liquidating the stored value of everything.”

    You see this in the culture, too. Just take a look at how many movies/streaming programs are remakes or sequels or derivations of comic book properties; same with video games (exception: when the Japanese are involved). The number is astounding. Very little of anything that is popular is also original. They’re just mining what’s already there, but one wonders how long that can last. I get the feeling that a lot of this is driven by 1) foreigners who are easily impressed by the latest CGI, a trend that can’t last forever 2) nostalgic white men in the United States who want to relieve a childhood in a country that no longer exists.

    “yet the US has run short on the number of soldiers it wants for several years now. Millennials and Zoomers won’t fight for the country.”

    They’re so desperate they’re having to redouble urban recruiting efforts; they already spend enormous sums employing over 10,000 total recruiters (average number of new recruits per recruiter = 3-5 per year per recruiter). They are also considering possibly lowering the minimum age to join to 16 – child soldier range. For the most part, the only nations that do this are loser European nations like the UK whose native populations tell pollsters they wouldn’t be willing to die in a war for their countries or Middle Eastern countries like Iran. To put this into perspective, the following countries have a minimum enlistment age of 18 or higher: Afghanistan, Angola (18/20), Chad, China, Ethiopia, Gabon (20), Iraq, Libya, Myanmar, Oman, Syria, Yemen, etc.

    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
    Wow, those ages are close to the median in the country for some of the African countries.
  140. @JackOH
    Try a mainstreamable novel to excite interest.

    Possible titles: America 2.0, America 2029, Escape to Cascadia, The Rights of Americans, etc.

    Description: Alternate future in a new nation-state, Cascadia, carved out of a post-devolutionary America. Characters and plot are rudimentary, and used mostly to illustrate the thinking that lies behind separationism.

    Any 25-year-olds with lit skills, some time on their hands, and a taste for political thinking?

    Thanks to all for the comments above.

    That would definitely be something I’d review for UR.

    • Replies: @JackOH
    AE, I think an informal pitch delivered by, maybe, a book agent for America 2.0 is pretty reasonable when considered as a popular, money-making book or movie.

    Oliver Lange's deeply pessimistic Vandenberg remained in print for several editions, I think, and a title change. Lange portrays his Americans as morally vacant, quite at ease with the Soviet occupation's military government. Rationing isn't too bad, big-ticket consumer goods are still available, and almost no one pays attention to political arrests for non-conformity and detention camps. Reviewers of the first edition (about 1970) clearly recognized it as an allegory of contemporary America.
  141. @MikeatMikedotMike
    "If they want it, sure. If a majority of the 200 million+ European-descended Americans wanted a state of their own, they could have it. Who would stop them? "

    I dunno, maybe being taught from the moment they are born they they don't deserve it? And that taken pride in themselves and their history is the most evil thing possible? How else have small groups of people in power maintained control over the masses? By convincing the masses that they have no power.

    But to be clear, your position is that those 200 million really prefer to have to have control of the country they are in taken over by the non European-descended horde?

    At the risk of sounding ridiculous, it’s an open question. This is where we win hearts and minds. Italy, Hungary, even Austria–there is more than just hope, there is precedence.

  142. @dfordoom

    I could easily imagine the upperclass white left losing political power
     
    Elites do not relinquish power without a fight. There is absolutely no way the rich in modern western society are going to give up their power - we're talking about an elite class that is remarkable for the extent of its arrogance and ruthlessness.

    I suspect that upper-class whites will in future avoid being seen to wield power directly. They will wield power through proxies and stooges. They will allow members of the Coalition of the Fringes to have the appearance of power without the substance. Rich whites will still be pulling all the strings behind the scenes.

    Is that the case with the squad? I don’t think so. Frankenstein’s monster is a crass comparison, but it’s a useful one.

    • Replies: @dfordoom

    Is that the case with the squad? I don’t think so.
     
    Rich whites will certainly do all they can to ensure that the members of the Coalition of the Fringes have the appearance of power rather than the substance. And they will do all they can to ensure that they will still be pulling all the strings behind the scenes. And those rich whites are the ones with the money and money is power. Money is always power but it's particularly the case in a political system as openly corrupt as America's.

    I think the odds are that the rich whites will manage to hold on to power pretty successfully.

    Frankenstein’s monster is a crass comparison, but it’s a useful one.
     
    There could be something in that. When Ilhan Omar wins the Democratic presidential nomination, goes on to win the presidency and her Administration seizes the assets of rich whites I'll be convinced that there's been a genuine transfer of power.
  143. @anon
    “The economy isn’t growing, but it’s maintaining a semblance of activity by liquidating the stored value of everything.”

    You see this in the culture, too. Just take a look at how many movies/streaming programs are remakes or sequels or derivations of comic book properties; same with video games (exception: when the Japanese are involved). The number is astounding. Very little of anything that is popular is also original. They're just mining what's already there, but one wonders how long that can last. I get the feeling that a lot of this is driven by 1) foreigners who are easily impressed by the latest CGI, a trend that can't last forever 2) nostalgic white men in the United States who want to relieve a childhood in a country that no longer exists.

    “yet the US has run short on the number of soldiers it wants for several years now. Millennials and Zoomers won’t fight for the country.”

    They're so desperate they're having to redouble urban recruiting efforts; they already spend enormous sums employing over 10,000 total recruiters (average number of new recruits per recruiter = 3-5 per year per recruiter). They are also considering possibly lowering the minimum age to join to 16 – child soldier range. For the most part, the only nations that do this are loser European nations like the UK whose native populations tell pollsters they wouldn't be willing to die in a war for their countries or Middle Eastern countries like Iran. To put this into perspective, the following countries have a minimum enlistment age of 18 or higher: Afghanistan, Angola (18/20), Chad, China, Ethiopia, Gabon (20), Iraq, Libya, Myanmar, Oman, Syria, Yemen, etc.

    Wow, those ages are close to the median in the country for some of the African countries.

  144. @Audacious Epigone
    Is that the case with the squad? I don't think so. Frankenstein's monster is a crass comparison, but it's a useful one.

    Is that the case with the squad? I don’t think so.

    Rich whites will certainly do all they can to ensure that the members of the Coalition of the Fringes have the appearance of power rather than the substance. And they will do all they can to ensure that they will still be pulling all the strings behind the scenes. And those rich whites are the ones with the money and money is power. Money is always power but it’s particularly the case in a political system as openly corrupt as America’s.

    I think the odds are that the rich whites will manage to hold on to power pretty successfully.

    Frankenstein’s monster is a crass comparison, but it’s a useful one.

    There could be something in that. When Ilhan Omar wins the Democratic presidential nomination, goes on to win the presidency and her Administration seizes the assets of rich whites I’ll be convinced that there’s been a genuine transfer of power.

    • Replies: @Mr. Rational

    When Ilhan Omar wins the Democratic presidential nomination, goes on to win the presidency
     
    Ilhan Omar is a naturalized citizen and ineligible to be POTUS.  Rashida Tlaib, maybe.
  145. anon[263] • Disclaimer says:

    We need to get an independence movement started ASAP before it’s too late. I’ve just read an extremely disturbing post about what these people are planning: mass arrests of dissenters, secret police infiltrating the government’s political enemies, and gun confiscations. They are using comparatively minor shooting casualties to promote left-wing authoritarianism, and state-controlled opposition like the National Review is endorsing it:

    http://www.occidentaldissent.com/2019/08/05/national-review-calls-for-red-flag-laws-mass-arrests-of-shitposters-cointelpro-sabotage-of-white-nationalist-groups/

    And by “white nationalist” they mean anyone who isn’t like David French and fellow Conservative Inc. types. That means websites like this one will be sabotaged (they’ve already quarantined r/Donald and banned several others since 2016) … any place where people don’t buy government / Leftist propaganda. It’s time to admit Donald Trump is a failure at best, traitor at worst. The republican party is a joke. Abandon it. It’s time to move on. Separate countries.

    It’s not hard to see where this is all going. 80 million Boomers retiring, open borders invasion, constant mass media agitation against Christians and whites, China supplanting the US economically and the Empire responding with hysterical tariff threats and trade wars, the US abandoning the INF treaty, a deep recession is incoming, military recruiting is struggling, allies are abandoning the Empire (Turkey), Russia is outselling the US defense industry (S-400), massive government deficits and unprecedentedly low interest rates to keep the scam going …. things are going to get hot in the 2020s. Let’s get out while we can, before it’s too late.

    PS. Recent shooting sprees are one of the reasons I support partition. Instead of pouring our energies into internet posting, radicalizing fringe people to do bad (unproductive) things, why not divert those energies into accomplishing something valuable like having our own country? It would be a useful means to divert attention away from crazies and to something productive.

    • Replies: @peterAUS

    ..why not divert those energies into accomplishing something valuable like having our own country?
     
    Because the people who are able to do that do not want it. And people who want that are not able to do that.
    Yet.

    It would be a useful means to divert attention away from crazies and to something productive.
     
    Yes.
    But that requires smarts. Make of that what you will.
  146. @dfordoom

    Is that the case with the squad? I don’t think so.
     
    Rich whites will certainly do all they can to ensure that the members of the Coalition of the Fringes have the appearance of power rather than the substance. And they will do all they can to ensure that they will still be pulling all the strings behind the scenes. And those rich whites are the ones with the money and money is power. Money is always power but it's particularly the case in a political system as openly corrupt as America's.

    I think the odds are that the rich whites will manage to hold on to power pretty successfully.

    Frankenstein’s monster is a crass comparison, but it’s a useful one.
     
    There could be something in that. When Ilhan Omar wins the Democratic presidential nomination, goes on to win the presidency and her Administration seizes the assets of rich whites I'll be convinced that there's been a genuine transfer of power.

    When Ilhan Omar wins the Democratic presidential nomination, goes on to win the presidency

    Ilhan Omar is a naturalized citizen and ineligible to be POTUS.  Rashida Tlaib, maybe.

  147. @Audacious Epigone
    That would definitely be something I'd review for UR.

    AE, I think an informal pitch delivered by, maybe, a book agent for America 2.0 is pretty reasonable when considered as a popular, money-making book or movie.

    Oliver Lange’s deeply pessimistic Vandenberg remained in print for several editions, I think, and a title change. Lange portrays his Americans as morally vacant, quite at ease with the Soviet occupation’s military government. Rationing isn’t too bad, big-ticket consumer goods are still available, and almost no one pays attention to political arrests for non-conformity and detention camps. Reviewers of the first edition (about 1970) clearly recognized it as an allegory of contemporary America.

  148. @anon
    We need to get an independence movement started ASAP before it's too late. I've just read an extremely disturbing post about what these people are planning: mass arrests of dissenters, secret police infiltrating the government's political enemies, and gun confiscations. They are using comparatively minor shooting casualties to promote left-wing authoritarianism, and state-controlled opposition like the National Review is endorsing it:

    http://www.occidentaldissent.com/2019/08/05/national-review-calls-for-red-flag-laws-mass-arrests-of-shitposters-cointelpro-sabotage-of-white-nationalist-groups/

    And by "white nationalist" they mean anyone who isn't like David French and fellow Conservative Inc. types. That means websites like this one will be sabotaged (they've already quarantined r/Donald and banned several others since 2016) ... any place where people don't buy government / Leftist propaganda. It's time to admit Donald Trump is a failure at best, traitor at worst. The republican party is a joke. Abandon it. It's time to move on. Separate countries.

    It's not hard to see where this is all going. 80 million Boomers retiring, open borders invasion, constant mass media agitation against Christians and whites, China supplanting the US economically and the Empire responding with hysterical tariff threats and trade wars, the US abandoning the INF treaty, a deep recession is incoming, military recruiting is struggling, allies are abandoning the Empire (Turkey), Russia is outselling the US defense industry (S-400), massive government deficits and unprecedentedly low interest rates to keep the scam going .... things are going to get hot in the 2020s. Let's get out while we can, before it's too late.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeE5WnTUsF8

    PS. Recent shooting sprees are one of the reasons I support partition. Instead of pouring our energies into internet posting, radicalizing fringe people to do bad (unproductive) things, why not divert those energies into accomplishing something valuable like having our own country? It would be a useful means to divert attention away from crazies and to something productive.

    ..why not divert those energies into accomplishing something valuable like having our own country?

    Because the people who are able to do that do not want it. And people who want that are not able to do that.
    Yet.

    It would be a useful means to divert attention away from crazies and to something productive.

    Yes.
    But that requires smarts. Make of that what you will.

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