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Open Thread 71
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The Ukrainian elections are coming up in a couple of weeks, so there’ll be a number of related posts in the next few days.

***

@ak

More notable posts since the last Open Thread in case you missed any of them.

***

Featured

  • Daniel Friedman: Why Elites Dislike Standardized Testing
    • Under pressure from both the academic left and wealthy parents, hundreds of colleges have become ‘test optional,’ allowing students to submit applications without test scores.
    • Ann Coulter: “Millionaires & celebrities “want to destroy the SAT because it is the only mechanism by which your kid can get into an elite college ahead of their kid.
    • AK: “Soviet Union abolished test scores for university admissions during the 1920s. With “former people” (Russian bourgeois, aristocrats) de facto barred, vast majority of students became Jews and prole activists.

***

Russia

***

World

  • Guillaume Durocher: How to Win on Immigration: Italy’s Salvini Shows the Way
  • Nancy Pelosi: “If America crumbled to the ground, the last thing that would remain is our support for #Israel.
  • CIA implicated in North Korea Embassy break-in in Madrid, Spain.
  • RT: US announces more support for ‘heroic’ White Helmets in Syria
    • It was nice for the ~one month that the freeze lasted.
  • Why Brandon Adamson [altleft.com] supports Yang: “Since Amazon is banning books, and people are being banned from money making media platforms and payment processing services, I don’t really give a shit if these companies get forced to pay taxes and we get our money on the backend instead.

***

Science & Culture

  • Olalde, Iñigo, Swapan Mallick, Nick Patterson, Nadin Rohland, Vanessa Villalba-Mouco, Marina Silva, Katharina Dulias, et al. 2019. “The Genomic History of the Iberian Peninsula over the Past 8000 Years.Science 363 (6432): 1230–34.
    • Greg Cochran: “The chart above shows what happened when the Indo-Europeans show up. Autosomal steppe ancestry goes from zero to ~40%, but on the Y-chromosome, it goes from zero to 100% over a few hundred years. As quoted in the New York Times, archaeologists ruled out violence as a possible cause… They’re nuts. To those who like the notion that the Indo-Europeans triumphed because they carried in bubonic plague ( or some other pathogen) that blasted immunologically naive EEF farmers: find me a plague that only kills men – all of them.

***

Humor & Powerful Takes

  • *powerful comment* Beckow: “I have often thought that Hitler was a strange psycho character who was out of place in his time. He was a vegetarian, fanatically committed to recycling, with an ambiguous gender identity, no kids, and he really hated Russia. Today he would fit right in with the liberal progressives marching around and yelling about the coming end of the world and how Russia has to be destroyed. Timing in life is everything, today’s Hitler might chain himself to a power plant to stop global warming, storm a farm that ‘abuses’ animals, change his gender at will, and – of course – start a war with Russia.
  • Freek Vermeulen: Academics with lower research productivity (i.e. fewer publications and citations) are more likely to put “PhD”, “Dr.” or “Professor” in their e-mail signatures.
  • Josef Bosch: In 2015 @nytimes published his op-ed re: his stunning & brave decision to live as a woman. In 2019, now that he’s rightly determined that his transition was the result of untreated mental illness… surely they’ll publish a follow-up, right? Nope.
  • Steve Stewart-Williams: When natural selection trumps sexual selection
  • Scott Alexander: Gwern’s AI-Generated Poetry
  • Powerful Website has promoted me to “Main Directorate of the General Staff of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation (G.R.U.) contractor.”

***

 
• Tags: Open Thread, Ukraine 
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  1. Russian foreign minister convinced Venezuela to let German reporter Billy Six leave solitary confinement after the German foreign minister tried to ignore his citizen as much as possible.

    https://twitter.com/PetrBystronAfD/status/1106950007964479490

    Meanwhile, a former member of the German national football team invited “his” president to his wedding and be his best man.

    How much does citizenship matter nowadays?

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    Özil is very useful. Last year I was banned from a Hungarian liberal journalist’s Facebook page, after I mentioned that Özil and Gündogan both supported Erdogan, as well as two thirds of the Turks in Germany, so clearly oppression is not the only explanation for Erdogan’s success.

    Before being deleted, I could still see a few liberal commenters mention how they really didn’t understand the two football players.

    , @songbird
    It is mostly meaningless. US citizenship still maintains a special niche though, if you are kidnapped by terrorists for ransom - you might get shot in a crossfire with SEALs.

    In sports, the idea of national teams is a total fraud within the West. You are rooting for laundry. Probably designed by a gay, and worn by, not simply random foreigners, but hostile, parasitic invaders who support the total destruction of your country.

    I think of all the endless sports scandals to compare it to. The only thing that comes close is the trannies, which is funny because the East German doping scandal was actually a pretty big deal for decades and those people were still females, albeit with mustaches and other secondary sexual characteristics of men.
  2. The 737 MAX 8 fiasco is looking increasingly bad for Boeing–and the FAA (which was overruled by Trump to ground the aircraft). The fitting of the new extreme bypass CFM International LEAP turbofan engines necessitated awkward forward, elevated placement of the engines which altered the handling characteristics of the aircraft. This makes it likely to nose into a stall condition, which Boeing addressed with software called Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System (MCAS).

    The software is on when autopilot is off, has a single point of failure (angle of attack sensor vane), and can only be shut off by cutting electric power to the subsystem. The original 737 MAX manual left out this information. Boeing was deliberately vague about all of this in order to expedite type certification and reassure airlines that pilot retraining would be cheap since it’s another 737 (most produced airliner in history).

    Boeing blamed Lion Air for the first crash, and after this second crash I see many commenters (mostly American I assume) elsewhere on this site blaming Air Ethiopia. No doubt Third World airlines have lower standards, but that’s insufficient to explain two hull loses in half a year on a new aircraft type. These Third Worlders aren’t constantly crashing 737NGs or, it should be pointed out, the competing Airbus A320 Neo which spurred the development of the 737 MAX in the first place. Hat tip Reiner Tor for this take.

    In a way this was caused by the failure of the 787’s extreme outsourcing strategy. This delayed the introduction of that type and ran up tens of billions of costs. Boeing’s original plan had been to follow the 787 and 777X with a clean sheet single aisle design to completely replace the 737. It lacked the time and resources to do so after cleaning up the 787 outsourcing mess, and then the Airbus A320 Neo appeared and started racking up huge orders. Boeing was left with no choice but to make do with what is now a 50+ year old aircraft. New engines were awkwardly fitted and some minor aerodynamic improvements were made.

    It’s worth pointing out just how old the 737 really is. The aircraft entered service at the height of the Vietnam War. Contemporary competitors, all long withdrawn from revenue services, included the BAC One-Eleven, the Sud Aviation Caravelle, the Douglas DC-9, the Fokker F28, and the Tupolev Tu-134. The 737 has changed so much over the years that it no longer serves in its original niche (short haul 100 seat or less) market which has been taken over by larger regional jets. The 737 was also not a fundamentally new design, but a derivative of the 707 which first flew in 1957 back when the only country which had successfully put a payload into orbit was the USSR and John Lennon was still an ugly loser playing for peanuts in Church gardens.

    There’s also something very human about this debacle. Boeing was one of the best performing large cap stocks in recent times, and its 787 had conquered the skyways. The new 777X, free of the outsourcing debacles of the 787, racked up gigantic orders and forced the Airbus A380–the pride of Europe–into an early and unceremonious retirement. The new 737 MAX was holding its own against the A320 Neo and one of the fastest new sellers in history. Boeing was a darling of the new American President, and its CEO was routinely toasted by the Davos set. Like Icarus, Boeing flew too close to the sun.

    Lastly, we all know this has been pushed off the front page by the terrorist attack in New Zealand. This is obviously the worst outcome of that incident, as the 737 MAX story is much more interesting in (and has a far higher body count). The timing is unfortunate…or perhaps very convenient. Was the NZ terrorist attack in fact a false flag incident staged by Boeing to escape the world’s gaze?

    • Agree: Anatoly Karlin
    • Replies: @George
    Should the 737 be the subject of a criminal investigation?
    , @Vishnugupta
    In your opinion is the 'software fix' enough or is the real solution the rewriting of control laws of the FBW system because the change in the CG of the aircraft due to the new engines can't be addressed by tweaking the existing FBW system.

    i.e. even after the 'fix' more crashes will occur.

    Is this also some sort of opportunity for COMAC as like the 737 their aircraft is also exclusively available with the LEAP engine but with a much newer airframe?
    , @reiner Tor
    Boeing probably could design a good plane. They might have several bad years, though. It’s difficult to see how this could easily be fixed. It’s quite possible that a country like China would never lift the ban, even with whatever software patches will be issued, because they could legitimately argue that it doesn’t fully fix the fundamental flaw of the aircraft, and so it stays inherently unsafe even after the fix.

    Actually, I’m not even sure the Europeans will lift the ban so easily. I personally wouldn’t, because I frequently fly, and this plane doesn’t feel like something that should be flying at all. I won’t board it, regardless of what fixes will be released.
    , @Anarcho-Supremacist
    Boeing should have kept the 757 and 717. Those are still best sellers dispite being out of production for over 10 years now.
    , @Gerard2

    and after this second crash I see many commenters (mostly American I assume) elsewhere on this site blaming Air Ethiopia. No doubt Third World airlines have lower standards, but that’s insufficient to explain two hull loses in half a year on a new aircraft type
     
    Surely though this is not a third world issue because they are likely to have shown the same competence as western guys following their training..........the main issue being the lack of light-aircraft experience or military experience - i.e their country has no air force to speak of...and these guys are likely to have been trained on computers/simulators and with next to zero light aircraft experience making them less alert to spot any BS from Boeing's systems.

    All the major western airlines (and Warsaw pact) are piloted by masses of ex-air force pilots, many of them spend their spare time enjoying themselves at airfields using light aircraft/gliders and doing plenty of (unpaid) teaching themselves. This obviously isn't the case in places like Ethiopia ( though I was under the impression that Boeing do plenty of their tests flights over there and would have used Ethiopians training to be pilots as observers , but not as the actual test pilots of course)

    I reckon on unaturally trained ( all simulators/not ex-military/ not light aircraft user) western and third-world country pilots...this issue remains the same.

  3. It’s your blog and you can do whatever you like AK, however, I don’t understand why you keep plugging IR’s blog? He’s totally unlike you in that he doesn’t appreciate any commentary that he might find inconveniently contradictory to the BS (not that you often post BS) that he’s trying to push. He had the gaul to ban me from his blog because of the awful sin of whataboutism. He posted a thread that tried to besmearch Ukraine for having an unreasonable language policy and compared it to that of fascist Italy (apparently he doesn’t share your views about Mussolini), whereas I tried to point out that Ukraine’s language policies are very similar to those in Russia (pointing out the recent curtailment of the Tatar language there). For my money, you’d even be doing your readers a favor by pushing Mike Averko’s blog, a guy with whom I seldom agree, who often posts interesting comments here, but is definitely a more balanced blogger and somebody who doesn’t exhibit these strange and out of date sovok tendencies. Seriously! 🙂

    • Replies: @The Big Red Scary

    recent curtailment of the Tatar language there)
     
    A while back you posted some German video about this, which I actually bothered to watch. You might note that what changed in Tatarstan was that the *requirement* for everyone to study Tatar was lifted. You can still teach it and study it if you want to, and so far as I can tell, those activities are still funded by the government.

    I'm not familiar with language policy in Ukraine, so will not comment on that.
    , @Beckow

    Ukraine for having an unreasonable language policy
     
    Unreasonable means badly thought out and likely to cause more harm than good. It is easy to see that Kiev's post-Maidan language policies have indeed been unreasonable : they have backfired.

    Tatarstan is a different local issue, but in any case even if there would be similarities the test is whether Kiev's language policy has made Ukraine better and stronger. I has not, it has made it weaker. To engage in self-defeating policies in many areas and claim that 'others have also been doing it' is insane. Yes, France had a tough unifying language policy, but they didn't introduce it in the middle of a civil war. There is a good time for everything, as it is, it looks to outside observers that Kiev is just twisting around in agony.

    , @Anon

    He’s totally unlike you in that he doesn’t appreciate any commentary that he might find inconveniently contradictory to the BS (not that you often post BS) that he’s trying to push. He had the gaul to ban me from his blog because of the awful sin of whataboutism.
     
    You are absolutely right Mr. Hack, I ban whataboutism on my blog. And I also ban personal attacks on yours truly, and other participants in the discussions.

    Ukraine is a country which represses other languages and does not allow minorities the choice to receive education and services in their native language. Just look at the language law currently debated in the Rada.

    You posted some American propaganda about Tatar classes in Tatarstan. The issue had to do with people being offered the choice not to do the Tatar language. This is fundamentally different from the Ukrainian situation. Crimean Tatars in Crimea have recently received textbooks in their native language, while Tatar classes may have closed in Tatarstan because locals don't want to learn Tatar.

    I did not want to have this discussion with you because we would spend dozens of comments trying to prove each other wrong. And since you broke the rules of my blog twice, your ass was blocked.

    Sincerely, Insomniac Resurrected
    , @Mikhail

    It’s your blog and you can do whatever you like AK, however, I don’t understand why you keep plugging IR’s blog? He’s totally unlike you in that he doesn’t appreciate any commentary that he might find inconveniently contradictory to the BS (not that you often post BS) that he’s trying to push. He had the gaul to ban me from his blog because of the awful sin of whataboutism. He posted a thread that tried to besmearch Ukraine for having an unreasonable language policy and compared it to that of fascist Italy (apparently he doesn’t share your views about Mussolini), whereas I tried to point out that Ukraine’s language policies are very similar to those in Russia (pointing out the recent curtailment of the Tatar language there). For my money, you’d even be doing your readers a favor by pushing Mike Averko’s blog, a guy with whom I seldom agree, who often posts interesting comments here, but is definitely a more balanced blogger and somebody who doesn’t exhibit these strange and out of date sovok tendencies. Seriously!
     
    What is and isn't a blog is subject to some debate. Eurasia Review (ER) is where all of my articles over the past few years can be accessed. Through my effort, ER gets picked up by News Now.

    I'm not planning to to get too much into your squabble with IR. I've no control over the posted comments at ER. I readily welcome disagreement:

    https://www.eurasiareview.com/19022019-putting-the-new-cold-war-and-russia-bashing-into-proper-perspective-oped/#comments

    https://www.eurasiareview.com/23032017-reexamining-russias-past-analysis/#comments

    http://www.eurasiareview.com/07032017-obsessing-over-russia-comparing-diplomats-and-historical-narratives-analysis/#comment-641140

    http://www.eurasiareview.com/29022016-eurovision-crimean-tatars-and-some-digressions-analysis/#comment-574063

    On the matter of what does and doesn't get pushed, there's a good deal of phony, crony, baloney, cronyism out there. I'm not the grovelling type.

  4. @Thorfinnsson
    The 737 MAX 8 fiasco is looking increasingly bad for Boeing--and the FAA (which was overruled by Trump to ground the aircraft). The fitting of the new extreme bypass CFM International LEAP turbofan engines necessitated awkward forward, elevated placement of the engines which altered the handling characteristics of the aircraft. This makes it likely to nose into a stall condition, which Boeing addressed with software called Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System (MCAS).

    The software is on when autopilot is off, has a single point of failure (angle of attack sensor vane), and can only be shut off by cutting electric power to the subsystem. The original 737 MAX manual left out this information. Boeing was deliberately vague about all of this in order to expedite type certification and reassure airlines that pilot retraining would be cheap since it's another 737 (most produced airliner in history).

    Boeing blamed Lion Air for the first crash, and after this second crash I see many commenters (mostly American I assume) elsewhere on this site blaming Air Ethiopia. No doubt Third World airlines have lower standards, but that's insufficient to explain two hull loses in half a year on a new aircraft type. These Third Worlders aren't constantly crashing 737NGs or, it should be pointed out, the competing Airbus A320 Neo which spurred the development of the 737 MAX in the first place. Hat tip Reiner Tor for this take.

    In a way this was caused by the failure of the 787's extreme outsourcing strategy. This delayed the introduction of that type and ran up tens of billions of costs. Boeing's original plan had been to follow the 787 and 777X with a clean sheet single aisle design to completely replace the 737. It lacked the time and resources to do so after cleaning up the 787 outsourcing mess, and then the Airbus A320 Neo appeared and started racking up huge orders. Boeing was left with no choice but to make do with what is now a 50+ year old aircraft. New engines were awkwardly fitted and some minor aerodynamic improvements were made.

    It's worth pointing out just how old the 737 really is. The aircraft entered service at the height of the Vietnam War. Contemporary competitors, all long withdrawn from revenue services, included the BAC One-Eleven, the Sud Aviation Caravelle, the Douglas DC-9, the Fokker F28, and the Tupolev Tu-134. The 737 has changed so much over the years that it no longer serves in its original niche (short haul 100 seat or less) market which has been taken over by larger regional jets. The 737 was also not a fundamentally new design, but a derivative of the 707 which first flew in 1957 back when the only country which had successfully put a payload into orbit was the USSR and John Lennon was still an ugly loser playing for peanuts in Church gardens.

    There's also something very human about this debacle. Boeing was one of the best performing large cap stocks in recent times, and its 787 had conquered the skyways. The new 777X, free of the outsourcing debacles of the 787, racked up gigantic orders and forced the Airbus A380--the pride of Europe--into an early and unceremonious retirement. The new 737 MAX was holding its own against the A320 Neo and one of the fastest new sellers in history. Boeing was a darling of the new American President, and its CEO was routinely toasted by the Davos set. Like Icarus, Boeing flew too close to the sun.

    Lastly, we all know this has been pushed off the front page by the terrorist attack in New Zealand. This is obviously the worst outcome of that incident, as the 737 MAX story is much more interesting in (and has a far higher body count). The timing is unfortunate...or perhaps very convenient. Was the NZ terrorist attack in fact a false flag incident staged by Boeing to escape the world's gaze?

    Should the 737 be the subject of a criminal investigation?

    • Replies: @Bruce County
    Only if it has gang affiliation with Chicago blacks.
    , @Thorfinnsson
    I don't know enough about criminal law in this area to say.

    Seems like that would be unusual.
  5. The info about Iberian ancestry is interesting. But, one question:

    Autosomal steppe ancestry goes from zero to ~40%, but on the Y-chromosome, it goes from zero to 100% over a few hundred years.

    Was it even possible for ancient Indo-Europeans to commit a genocide so thoroughly? It’s pretty clear that ancient invading hordes were perfectly willing to do such things, but I would be shocked if they actually had the capability to systematically kill off the entire male half of a population, even over the course of several centuries.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    Good question. Marauding 'barbarian' invaders like the Mongols, Goths and Huns would either decimate whole village populations or spare the women whom they'd make into concubines. If, the raid was not of a particular vindictive nature, the warrior men were drafted into the new military formation.
  6. @Denis
    The info about Iberian ancestry is interesting. But, one question:

    Autosomal steppe ancestry goes from zero to ~40%, but on the Y-chromosome, it goes from zero to 100% over a few hundred years.
     
    Was it even possible for ancient Indo-Europeans to commit a genocide so thoroughly? It's pretty clear that ancient invading hordes were perfectly willing to do such things, but I would be shocked if they actually had the capability to systematically kill off the entire male half of a population, even over the course of several centuries.

    Good question. Marauding ‘barbarian’ invaders like the Mongols, Goths and Huns would either decimate whole village populations or spare the women whom they’d make into concubines. If, the raid was not of a particular vindictive nature, the warrior men were drafted into the new military formation.

    • Replies: @Denis
    I know, which is why I'm unsurprised that they would do this. Kill all the men and rape all the women has been standard operating procedure for conquerors throughout much of human history. I'm just surprised that even the ancient Indo-Europeans had the same technical and organizational capacity as, say, the Mongols to wipe out entire male populations.

    Also, as you point out, in later cases their were instances where the invading hordes would simply assimilate many of the males, rather than pursuing their utter destruction. In order for 100% of the male ancestry of pre-European populations to have been wiped out over the course of centuries, there must have been an organized campaign of some sort; I am surprised that they were able to carry this out.

  7. @Mr. Hack
    Good question. Marauding 'barbarian' invaders like the Mongols, Goths and Huns would either decimate whole village populations or spare the women whom they'd make into concubines. If, the raid was not of a particular vindictive nature, the warrior men were drafted into the new military formation.

    I know, which is why I’m unsurprised that they would do this. Kill all the men and rape all the women has been standard operating procedure for conquerors throughout much of human history. I’m just surprised that even the ancient Indo-Europeans had the same technical and organizational capacity as, say, the Mongols to wipe out entire male populations.

    Also, as you point out, in later cases their were instances where the invading hordes would simply assimilate many of the males, rather than pursuing their utter destruction. In order for 100% of the male ancestry of pre-European populations to have been wiped out over the course of centuries, there must have been an organized campaign of some sort; I am surprised that they were able to carry this out.

    • Agree: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @SIMPLEPseudonymicHandle
    An invader doesn't necessarily has to wipe out all the local males, they just need to make sure that their own male progeny had a substantial leg up with inherited higher status and polygyny. Keep the process for generations and the local male lines peter out.
    Now, the archaeologists are likely lying. I don;t know about Bronze Age Spain but IE invasions are accompanied in other parts of Europe by the violent destruction of local neolithic farmer villages and their replacement in the landscape with IE pastoralist ones.
    Another aspect is that at that low level of political organization slavery and serfdom were not feasible. We are probably talking about small, mobile groups, centered on a warlord, raiding for cattle and young women, but incapable of becoming stationary bandits and extracting an yearly tribute like the mongols or goths did. Being pastoralists they also had little need for slaves and there were no international routes of slave trade yet.
    , @szopen
    You don't have to wipe out everyone. You continously murder them, rob them, and push to the territories whcih would support smaller populations, while taking the best areas for yourself. Repeat that over few centuries and you have a complete replacement.

    The accepted males would have lower status plus might be less adapted to the style of IEs. For example, more susceptible for the diseases more common amongst IEs.

  8. @Thorfinnsson
    The 737 MAX 8 fiasco is looking increasingly bad for Boeing--and the FAA (which was overruled by Trump to ground the aircraft). The fitting of the new extreme bypass CFM International LEAP turbofan engines necessitated awkward forward, elevated placement of the engines which altered the handling characteristics of the aircraft. This makes it likely to nose into a stall condition, which Boeing addressed with software called Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System (MCAS).

    The software is on when autopilot is off, has a single point of failure (angle of attack sensor vane), and can only be shut off by cutting electric power to the subsystem. The original 737 MAX manual left out this information. Boeing was deliberately vague about all of this in order to expedite type certification and reassure airlines that pilot retraining would be cheap since it's another 737 (most produced airliner in history).

    Boeing blamed Lion Air for the first crash, and after this second crash I see many commenters (mostly American I assume) elsewhere on this site blaming Air Ethiopia. No doubt Third World airlines have lower standards, but that's insufficient to explain two hull loses in half a year on a new aircraft type. These Third Worlders aren't constantly crashing 737NGs or, it should be pointed out, the competing Airbus A320 Neo which spurred the development of the 737 MAX in the first place. Hat tip Reiner Tor for this take.

    In a way this was caused by the failure of the 787's extreme outsourcing strategy. This delayed the introduction of that type and ran up tens of billions of costs. Boeing's original plan had been to follow the 787 and 777X with a clean sheet single aisle design to completely replace the 737. It lacked the time and resources to do so after cleaning up the 787 outsourcing mess, and then the Airbus A320 Neo appeared and started racking up huge orders. Boeing was left with no choice but to make do with what is now a 50+ year old aircraft. New engines were awkwardly fitted and some minor aerodynamic improvements were made.

    It's worth pointing out just how old the 737 really is. The aircraft entered service at the height of the Vietnam War. Contemporary competitors, all long withdrawn from revenue services, included the BAC One-Eleven, the Sud Aviation Caravelle, the Douglas DC-9, the Fokker F28, and the Tupolev Tu-134. The 737 has changed so much over the years that it no longer serves in its original niche (short haul 100 seat or less) market which has been taken over by larger regional jets. The 737 was also not a fundamentally new design, but a derivative of the 707 which first flew in 1957 back when the only country which had successfully put a payload into orbit was the USSR and John Lennon was still an ugly loser playing for peanuts in Church gardens.

    There's also something very human about this debacle. Boeing was one of the best performing large cap stocks in recent times, and its 787 had conquered the skyways. The new 777X, free of the outsourcing debacles of the 787, racked up gigantic orders and forced the Airbus A380--the pride of Europe--into an early and unceremonious retirement. The new 737 MAX was holding its own against the A320 Neo and one of the fastest new sellers in history. Boeing was a darling of the new American President, and its CEO was routinely toasted by the Davos set. Like Icarus, Boeing flew too close to the sun.

    Lastly, we all know this has been pushed off the front page by the terrorist attack in New Zealand. This is obviously the worst outcome of that incident, as the 737 MAX story is much more interesting in (and has a far higher body count). The timing is unfortunate...or perhaps very convenient. Was the NZ terrorist attack in fact a false flag incident staged by Boeing to escape the world's gaze?

    In your opinion is the ‘software fix’ enough or is the real solution the rewriting of control laws of the FBW system because the change in the CG of the aircraft due to the new engines can’t be addressed by tweaking the existing FBW system.

    i.e. even after the ‘fix’ more crashes will occur.

    Is this also some sort of opportunity for COMAC as like the 737 their aircraft is also exclusively available with the LEAP engine but with a much newer airframe?

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    Change of Cg is hardly unprecedented. I don't actually see anything wrong in principle with using MCAS to deal with the problem, though probably aviation certification authorities should take a stricter view with an eye to requiring a permanent fix (moving the Cg or changing the aerodynamic center of lift).

    COMAC C919 is obsolete, so outside of China (and Russia) this is just an opportunity for Airbus.
  9. @Denis
    I know, which is why I'm unsurprised that they would do this. Kill all the men and rape all the women has been standard operating procedure for conquerors throughout much of human history. I'm just surprised that even the ancient Indo-Europeans had the same technical and organizational capacity as, say, the Mongols to wipe out entire male populations.

    Also, as you point out, in later cases their were instances where the invading hordes would simply assimilate many of the males, rather than pursuing their utter destruction. In order for 100% of the male ancestry of pre-European populations to have been wiped out over the course of centuries, there must have been an organized campaign of some sort; I am surprised that they were able to carry this out.

    An invader doesn’t necessarily has to wipe out all the local males, they just need to make sure that their own male progeny had a substantial leg up with inherited higher status and polygyny. Keep the process for generations and the local male lines peter out.
    Now, the archaeologists are likely lying. I don;t know about Bronze Age Spain but IE invasions are accompanied in other parts of Europe by the violent destruction of local neolithic farmer villages and their replacement in the landscape with IE pastoralist ones.
    Another aspect is that at that low level of political organization slavery and serfdom were not feasible. We are probably talking about small, mobile groups, centered on a warlord, raiding for cattle and young women, but incapable of becoming stationary bandits and extracting an yearly tribute like the mongols or goths did. Being pastoralists they also had little need for slaves and there were no international routes of slave trade yet.

  10. @Denis
    I know, which is why I'm unsurprised that they would do this. Kill all the men and rape all the women has been standard operating procedure for conquerors throughout much of human history. I'm just surprised that even the ancient Indo-Europeans had the same technical and organizational capacity as, say, the Mongols to wipe out entire male populations.

    Also, as you point out, in later cases their were instances where the invading hordes would simply assimilate many of the males, rather than pursuing their utter destruction. In order for 100% of the male ancestry of pre-European populations to have been wiped out over the course of centuries, there must have been an organized campaign of some sort; I am surprised that they were able to carry this out.

    You don’t have to wipe out everyone. You continously murder them, rob them, and push to the territories whcih would support smaller populations, while taking the best areas for yourself. Repeat that over few centuries and you have a complete replacement.

    The accepted males would have lower status plus might be less adapted to the style of IEs. For example, more susceptible for the diseases more common amongst IEs.

  11. @Thorfinnsson
    The 737 MAX 8 fiasco is looking increasingly bad for Boeing--and the FAA (which was overruled by Trump to ground the aircraft). The fitting of the new extreme bypass CFM International LEAP turbofan engines necessitated awkward forward, elevated placement of the engines which altered the handling characteristics of the aircraft. This makes it likely to nose into a stall condition, which Boeing addressed with software called Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System (MCAS).

    The software is on when autopilot is off, has a single point of failure (angle of attack sensor vane), and can only be shut off by cutting electric power to the subsystem. The original 737 MAX manual left out this information. Boeing was deliberately vague about all of this in order to expedite type certification and reassure airlines that pilot retraining would be cheap since it's another 737 (most produced airliner in history).

    Boeing blamed Lion Air for the first crash, and after this second crash I see many commenters (mostly American I assume) elsewhere on this site blaming Air Ethiopia. No doubt Third World airlines have lower standards, but that's insufficient to explain two hull loses in half a year on a new aircraft type. These Third Worlders aren't constantly crashing 737NGs or, it should be pointed out, the competing Airbus A320 Neo which spurred the development of the 737 MAX in the first place. Hat tip Reiner Tor for this take.

    In a way this was caused by the failure of the 787's extreme outsourcing strategy. This delayed the introduction of that type and ran up tens of billions of costs. Boeing's original plan had been to follow the 787 and 777X with a clean sheet single aisle design to completely replace the 737. It lacked the time and resources to do so after cleaning up the 787 outsourcing mess, and then the Airbus A320 Neo appeared and started racking up huge orders. Boeing was left with no choice but to make do with what is now a 50+ year old aircraft. New engines were awkwardly fitted and some minor aerodynamic improvements were made.

    It's worth pointing out just how old the 737 really is. The aircraft entered service at the height of the Vietnam War. Contemporary competitors, all long withdrawn from revenue services, included the BAC One-Eleven, the Sud Aviation Caravelle, the Douglas DC-9, the Fokker F28, and the Tupolev Tu-134. The 737 has changed so much over the years that it no longer serves in its original niche (short haul 100 seat or less) market which has been taken over by larger regional jets. The 737 was also not a fundamentally new design, but a derivative of the 707 which first flew in 1957 back when the only country which had successfully put a payload into orbit was the USSR and John Lennon was still an ugly loser playing for peanuts in Church gardens.

    There's also something very human about this debacle. Boeing was one of the best performing large cap stocks in recent times, and its 787 had conquered the skyways. The new 777X, free of the outsourcing debacles of the 787, racked up gigantic orders and forced the Airbus A380--the pride of Europe--into an early and unceremonious retirement. The new 737 MAX was holding its own against the A320 Neo and one of the fastest new sellers in history. Boeing was a darling of the new American President, and its CEO was routinely toasted by the Davos set. Like Icarus, Boeing flew too close to the sun.

    Lastly, we all know this has been pushed off the front page by the terrorist attack in New Zealand. This is obviously the worst outcome of that incident, as the 737 MAX story is much more interesting in (and has a far higher body count). The timing is unfortunate...or perhaps very convenient. Was the NZ terrorist attack in fact a false flag incident staged by Boeing to escape the world's gaze?

    Boeing probably could design a good plane. They might have several bad years, though. It’s difficult to see how this could easily be fixed. It’s quite possible that a country like China would never lift the ban, even with whatever software patches will be issued, because they could legitimately argue that it doesn’t fully fix the fundamental flaw of the aircraft, and so it stays inherently unsafe even after the fix.

    Actually, I’m not even sure the Europeans will lift the ban so easily. I personally wouldn’t, because I frequently fly, and this plane doesn’t feel like something that should be flying at all. I won’t board it, regardless of what fixes will be released.

    • Replies: @Mitleser
    It would not be wise for China not to unban the new 737s eventually. The C-919 is not ready yet.

    About one third of all 737s are sold to Chinese airlines. The Zhoushan plant will finish 737 Max 7, 8, 9 and 10 jets.
     
    https://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/news/2018/08/07/boeing-zhoushan-china-737-max-factory-comac.html
    , @Thorfinnsson
    In principle what Boeing did with the 737 MAX isn't anything different than what the airliner industry has been doing since the Lockheed L-1049 Super Constellation arrived in 1951.

    Using a software fix instead of an aerodynamic (or ballast) fix might be new, but I kind of doubt it. I suspect the issue is rather that this was rushed into production and inadequate documentation and training was provided.

    Boeing obviously will solve the problem, so the Europeans will obviously lift the ban. How long this will take of course I have no idea.
  12. @Mitleser
    Russian foreign minister convinced Venezuela to let German reporter Billy Six leave solitary confinement after the German foreign minister tried to ignore his citizen as much as possible.

    https://twitter.com/PetrBystronAfD/status/1106950007964479490


    Meanwhile, a former member of the German national football team invited "his" president to his wedding and be his best man.

    https://twitter.com/Akparti/status/1106622638888226816


    How much does citizenship matter nowadays?

    Özil is very useful. Last year I was banned from a Hungarian liberal journalist’s Facebook page, after I mentioned that Özil and Gündogan both supported Erdogan, as well as two thirds of the Turks in Germany, so clearly oppression is not the only explanation for Erdogan’s success.

    Before being deleted, I could still see a few liberal commenters mention how they really didn’t understand the two football players.

  13. @reiner Tor
    Boeing probably could design a good plane. They might have several bad years, though. It’s difficult to see how this could easily be fixed. It’s quite possible that a country like China would never lift the ban, even with whatever software patches will be issued, because they could legitimately argue that it doesn’t fully fix the fundamental flaw of the aircraft, and so it stays inherently unsafe even after the fix.

    Actually, I’m not even sure the Europeans will lift the ban so easily. I personally wouldn’t, because I frequently fly, and this plane doesn’t feel like something that should be flying at all. I won’t board it, regardless of what fixes will be released.

    It would not be wise for China not to unban the new 737s eventually. The C-919 is not ready yet.

    About one third of all 737s are sold to Chinese airlines. The Zhoushan plant will finish 737 Max 7, 8, 9 and 10 jets.

    https://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/news/2018/08/07/boeing-zhoushan-china-737-max-factory-comac.html

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    You had been arguing here before that China needed to take the American threat more seriously and should be willing to take losses in the fight.

    I think this is a case where arguably the plane won’t be up to 21st century safety standards even after the patch. Therefore, while it’d do enormous harm to America (and relatively smaller harm to China; arguably long term no harm at all), it would probably just be a case of letting the air safety authorities do their job.
  14. @Mitleser
    It would not be wise for China not to unban the new 737s eventually. The C-919 is not ready yet.

    About one third of all 737s are sold to Chinese airlines. The Zhoushan plant will finish 737 Max 7, 8, 9 and 10 jets.
     
    https://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/news/2018/08/07/boeing-zhoushan-china-737-max-factory-comac.html

    You had been arguing here before that China needed to take the American threat more seriously and should be willing to take losses in the fight.

    I think this is a case where arguably the plane won’t be up to 21st century safety standards even after the patch. Therefore, while it’d do enormous harm to America (and relatively smaller harm to China; arguably long term no harm at all), it would probably just be a case of letting the air safety authorities do their job.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    This is somewhat complicated by the fact that there is a 737 production line in China and that Chinese airlines are the largest customers of the 737 MAX. Obviously these things did not happen without the awareness of the CCP.

    There is 737 MAX work in China as well. Presently interior finishing and soon paint.

    As the commenter Dmitri likes to remind us, import substitution has opportunity costs. Banning Western aircraft in the single aisle market would increase operating costs for Chinese airlines, and these new 737 MAX crashes aside I suspect the COMAC C919 will be inherently less safe than Western aircraft. Even if that is not the case people, including Chinese people, would probably believe that to be true and shift their consumption patterns as a result.

    Look at how people think Russian airliners are unsafe, even though recent ones have a decent safety record (zero hull losses for Il-96 and Tu-204, one for the SSJ which was caused by pilot error).

    China also has a large current account surplus and is currently involved in delicate trade negotiations with America. America's explicit objective in this is to prevent China from climbing the technological ladder, which China is trying to avoid by fobbing off America with promises of larger imports. These imports are mainly to be commodities, but airliners and even cars (mainly SUVs) are also under consideration by the Chinese to buy off America.
  15. Virginia city commemorates Imperial Russian sailors.

    В г. Портсмут (штат Виргиния) почтили память русских моряков, похороненных на военно-мемориальном…

    Posted by Embassy of Russia in the USA / Посольство России в США on Thursday, March 14, 2019

    • Replies: @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan
    Russian sailors have done some very good things for us.

    I hold basically to the 19th century GOP platform, which means I'm a horrible racist in today's media eyes. Anyway, I believe the Union cause was generally correct. And people who think that "Union cause" = "gay liberalism" are ignorant; the average Northern soldier hated slavery because he wanted America free for white people. And I'm happy to say that the Russian Navy played a brief, forgotten, but rather vital role in helping the Union win. The British and the French were close to intervening. More importantly, the British were about to send the Confederates some ironclads that could have been used to decisively break the Union blockade.

    Well, the Russians, as part of their own conflict with the British and French, sent much of their navy to San Francisco and New York - partly as an official state visit, but mostly as a strategic ploy during a war scare between those 3 European powers.

    The Russians could never have beaten the British in open naval combat, but the Russian plan was to use their ships as commerce raiders, based apparently out of America, in the event of war. Now THAT scared the British, who knew full well how devastating commerce raiding could be. The Russian presence in America served Russian interests just as it served the Union Navy's interests, and, ultimately, the British plan for introducing strong ironclads into the war was broken.

    So: thanks, Russia! Glad our interests could intersect.

    But even in Civil War historiography, we cannot escape absurd Russophobia. I heard a historian (he's otherwise pretty good) recently mention the presence of Russian ships in NY and SF then, and argue that it was indicative that the Russians too - like the British and French - were interested in intervening on behalf of the Confederates. This is a ridiculous statement, which any 5 minute study of 19th century Russian strategy would reveal, but this is the ignorance among even smart people.

  16. @Mr. Hack
    It's your blog and you can do whatever you like AK, however, I don't understand why you keep plugging IR's blog? He's totally unlike you in that he doesn't appreciate any commentary that he might find inconveniently contradictory to the BS (not that you often post BS) that he's trying to push. He had the gaul to ban me from his blog because of the awful sin of whataboutism. He posted a thread that tried to besmearch Ukraine for having an unreasonable language policy and compared it to that of fascist Italy (apparently he doesn't share your views about Mussolini), whereas I tried to point out that Ukraine’s language policies are very similar to those in Russia (pointing out the recent curtailment of the Tatar language there). For my money, you'd even be doing your readers a favor by pushing Mike Averko's blog, a guy with whom I seldom agree, who often posts interesting comments here, but is definitely a more balanced blogger and somebody who doesn't exhibit these strange and out of date sovok tendencies. Seriously! :-)

    recent curtailment of the Tatar language there)

    A while back you posted some German video about this, which I actually bothered to watch. You might note that what changed in Tatarstan was that the *requirement* for everyone to study Tatar was lifted. You can still teach it and study it if you want to, and so far as I can tell, those activities are still funded by the government.

    I’m not familiar with language policy in Ukraine, so will not comment on that.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    File under: Big Brother Knows Best:

    The decision to make the language an elective subject and only undertaken with parental approval was made after a Moscow-driven push to abandon mandatory traditional language lessons. The move has sparked concern among Tatar advocates who believe the decision will ‘undermine Tatarstan’s cultural identity’, and discourage the ‘learning of the language of [an] indigenous ethnic group’, which is against the Republic’s constitution. Some have even argued that the decision will be the end of the language itself, which remains to be seen.

     

    https://theculturetrip.com/europe/russia/articles/will-the-tatar-language-become-extinct/

    The decision came down from Moscow and not Kazan. What was wrong with the way things were? What precipitated the need to change things?

  17. @Mitleser
    Russian foreign minister convinced Venezuela to let German reporter Billy Six leave solitary confinement after the German foreign minister tried to ignore his citizen as much as possible.

    https://twitter.com/PetrBystronAfD/status/1106950007964479490


    Meanwhile, a former member of the German national football team invited "his" president to his wedding and be his best man.

    https://twitter.com/Akparti/status/1106622638888226816


    How much does citizenship matter nowadays?

    It is mostly meaningless. US citizenship still maintains a special niche though, if you are kidnapped by terrorists for ransom – you might get shot in a crossfire with SEALs.

    In sports, the idea of national teams is a total fraud within the West. You are rooting for laundry. Probably designed by a gay, and worn by, not simply random foreigners, but hostile, parasitic invaders who support the total destruction of your country.

    I think of all the endless sports scandals to compare it to. The only thing that comes close is the trannies, which is funny because the East German doping scandal was actually a pretty big deal for decades and those people were still females, albeit with mustaches and other secondary sexual characteristics of men.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    Songbird I logged here today to ask you if you saw this newly, strange article?

    U.S. IN UFO RACE WITH CHINA, RUSSIA, FORMER SENATE MAJORITY LEADER SUGGESTS

    Former Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid dropped major hints that he knows potential adversaries, Russia and China, have carried out their own military studies to figure out how UFOs work and how to build their own,” Knapp said during the broadcast, citing anonymous Pentagon sources to claim dozens of UFOs have been encountered off the coast of Florida and Virginia in the last three years.

     

    https://www.newsweek.com/ufo-2019-harry-reid-china-russia-senate-unexplained-aerial-phenomena-1349256

    We were discussing Bigelow Aerospace a few weeks ago, and decided Robert Bigelow seems quite insane (which is the impression from seeing videos of him).

    But what is reliability of Harry Reid? Harry Reid is also friends with Robert Bigelow, and partly responsible for government funding of Bigelow Aerospace, so there could be some corruption there.

    In this story, Harry Reid "dropped major hints that he knows potential adversaries, Russia and China, have carried out their own military studies to figure out how UFOs work and how to build their own."

    Nothing in Russian media is reporting this.

    In Russian media, position "UFOs are a hoax" and result of mental illness, seems like common consensus in the articles in mainstream media for the last few years. It's strange to see American media going more in the "crazy direction" with this topic.

  18. VeteransToday has just come out with several stories said to be backed by Russian military & intel, that the New Zealand shooter Brendon Tarrant, supposedly age 28, is actually an age 42 Jewish assassin trained in Israel, and that the mosque massacre is a giant scheme of Israel & Anglo intel, with complicity inside the NZ gov’t
    https://www.veteranstoday.com/2019/03/16/intel-drop-shooting-real-shooter-fake-jewish-born-freemason-like-brevik/
    https://www.veteranstoday.com/2019/03/17/new-zealand-the-unraveling-of-a-israeli-mass-murder/

    Indeed lots is wrong with the official story, like the hard-if-not-impossible-to-obtain-in-NZ USA commando weapons & optics … Aangirfan on her site is running a major thread on all that’s wrong with the ‘official’ story, quite ‘false phlaggy’
    http://aanirfan.blogspot.com/2019/03/new-zealand-mosque-attacks-false-flag.html

    Veterans Today, to be sure, is a ‘self-discrediting’ source, on purpose say the site owners – they only get to print truth bombs & stay alive by adding 30% nonsense ‘poisoning the well’, so normies can dismiss them

    But at times VT is spectacularly right very early

  19. There is another YouTube rival claiming to have some ability to avoid the censors, D Tube

    For those who might want to evaluate the New Zealand shooting helmet-cam mosque massacre livestream – *Warning – Graphic Disturbing Content – Adults Only* – here is the 17-minute video that Turkey’s President Erdogan is apparently showing the entire Muslim world, the sight of mosque attendees getting coldly shot to death, video-game-style, this vid having quite an impact amongst the Muslim ummah … not pleasant, but a look will help to understand the blowback – conflict dangers that are now becoming actualised in the aftermath
    http://d.tube/#!/v/highimpactflix/l3p2l643

    • Replies: @Hippopotamusdrome
    You can see why they are trying so very hard to not let anyone see it, as it might make people suspect its not real. At the beginning he walks along a busy street brandishing a shotgun and also has an assault rifle and no one notices? There is even someone getting out of a parked car that he walks right by.

    Then on the way back out after firing off several magazines there is still traffic on the street.

    Oh, and it looks like he changed his mind midway and didn't use the gasoline cans he brought to start a fire. Don't want to cause a lot of expensive property damage, LOL.

    This is all just a stunt by T-Series to smear PewDiePie. And Indians hate Muslims, after all.
  20. that venezuela russia article. does that essentially mean russia is the only thing keeping venezuela up at this point? if they hadn’t been in there spending 9 billion for the last 7 years, venezuela would already have gone down a few years ago?

  21. Poll about attitude towards the Russian language in Ukraine:

    http://www.kiis.com.ua/?lang=eng&cat=reports&id=832&page=1

    29% think Russian and Ukrainian should be equally taught in schools (most popular choice in South and East)

    26% think Russian should be taught more than foreign languages but less than Ukrainian (most popular choice in the Center)

    25% think Russian should be treated like English or German (most popular choice in the West)

    8% think it shouldn’t be taught at all (almost all of these people are in western Ukraine – it gets 22% support there)

    :::::::

    Poll was last done in 1998. Since then, in territories currently under Kiev’s control (that is, not including Crimea and Donbas), support in equal Russian/Ukrainian language instruction has dropped from 40% to 27%. Most Ukrainians want the state language.

    ::::::::

    There is also a question about the Donbas war – would you support autonomy for Donbas if it ends the war.

    Strong support 28%
    Weak support 23%
    Weak opposition: 9%
    Strong opposition: 15%

    Hard to say: 23%

    The only region that opposed more than supported it was the West. The Center had more support than opposition (though support was under 50%). Strong support in the South and East.

    Expelling Donbas wasn’t an option in this poll, nor were details of the nature of the autonomy spelled out.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    Would be in the single digits (I suspect low single digits). Most people have an instinctive reaction against giving away their territory, regardless of the benefits.
    , @Anon

    There is also a question about the Donbas war – would you support autonomy for Donbas if it ends the war.

    Strong support 28%
    Weak support 23%
    Weak opposition: 9%
    Strong opposition: 15%

    Hard to say: 23%

    The only region that opposed more than supported it was the West. The Center had more support than opposition (though support was under 50%). Strong support in the South and East.
     
    Makes me wonder what the problem of West Ukraine is. Why are the fascist raguli so intolerant?
    , @Anon
    29% think Russian and Ukrainian should be equally taught in schools (most popular choice in South and East)

    The results at KIIS show that in the Donbass this is more than 70% of the population. And in the East and South the numbers reach over 50%.

    With this much support of bilingualism, I wonder how much was the conflict the result of LARPer Strelkov taking over Slavyansk rather than Ukrnazis taking over the parliament and attacking supporters of pluralism in the East?
  22. @AP
    Poll about attitude towards the Russian language in Ukraine:

    http://www.kiis.com.ua/?lang=eng&cat=reports&id=832&page=1

    29% think Russian and Ukrainian should be equally taught in schools (most popular choice in South and East)

    26% think Russian should be taught more than foreign languages but less than Ukrainian (most popular choice in the Center)

    25% think Russian should be treated like English or German (most popular choice in the West)

    8% think it shouldn't be taught at all (almost all of these people are in western Ukraine - it gets 22% support there)

    :::::::

    Poll was last done in 1998. Since then, in territories currently under Kiev's control (that is, not including Crimea and Donbas), support in equal Russian/Ukrainian language instruction has dropped from 40% to 27%. Most Ukrainians want the state language.

    ::::::::

    There is also a question about the Donbas war - would you support autonomy for Donbas if it ends the war.

    Strong support 28%
    Weak support 23%
    Weak opposition: 9%
    Strong opposition: 15%

    Hard to say: 23%

    The only region that opposed more than supported it was the West. The Center had more support than opposition (though support was under 50%). Strong support in the South and East.

    Expelling Donbas wasn't an option in this poll, nor were details of the nature of the autonomy spelled out.

    Would be in the single digits (I suspect low single digits). Most people have an instinctive reaction against giving away their territory, regardless of the benefits.

    • Replies: @AP
    Probably. But one can make all sort of interesting polls. If the autonomy is so broad that it means Donbas gets to veto any national policies as I believe the Minsk agreement stipulates (i.e, stop EU integration), do you prefer inclusion or expulsion? Or status quo?
  23. Upcoming Ukraine posts (mostly as a reminder/guide to myself):

    * Kiev Snipergate
    * Was Putin Wrong to Annex Crimea?
    * Do Crimeans Support Joining Russia?
    * Has Crimea Benefited from Joining Russia?
    * Why Belorussia is Not the Ukraine

    • Replies: @E
    Anatoly, regarding "Do Crimeans Support Joining Russia?", I recommend addressing this perhaps:
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/05/06/russian-government-agency-reveals-fraudulent-nature-of-the-crimean-referendum-results/

    That was recently thrown at me by someone who gets his views from the Western MSM in a debate on the matter.

    I'm going to copy and paste part of an email I sent back. Feel free to reuse or repurpose if you like (attribution unnecessary):

    The Washington Post article quotes a blog entry posted by Yevgeny Bobrov, a member of the President of Russia’s Council on Civil Society and Human Rights, who was part of a small group that visited Crimea for three days in April 2014 and interviewed various people. The original post is still up, I found it here: http://president-sovet.ru/members/blogs/bobrov_e_a/problemy-zhiteley-kryma-/

    The English translation of the relevant section that the Washington Post gives is indeed accurate:

    "In the opinion of virtually all the experts and citizens interviewed:
    – The vast majority of the citizens of Sevastopol voted in favor of unification with Russia in the referendum (50-80%); in Crimea, various data show that 50-60% voted for unification with Russia, with a turnout of 30-50%."

    This is quite different from the official Crimean referendum numbers. Some Western sources have used the lower range of these estimates to claim that only 15% of Crimeans actually voted to join Russia.

    My main problem is that all the "experts and citizens" are unnamed, so it's impossible to check anything. I tried really hard to find more information about this expedition, and found this detailed account by another member, an oppositionist journalist who works for the Novaya Gazeta newspaper:
    http://hro.rightsinrussia.info/archive/ukraine/crimea/gannushkina (English translation)
    She mentions that they had 20 meetings in Crimea's two biggest cities over the course of 3 days, mostly through her own connections.
    She goes into quite a lot of detail about the bureaucratic chaos that was going on back then, and her reporting seems accurate on that (it really was bad at first, although it improved within a few months). Nowhere in her lengthy article, which contains numerous quotes from people they interviewed and a lot of criticism of the Russian authorities, does she say anything about the referendum estimates that Bobrov mentions in his report, which I find strange.

    So, I have a few theories for what could have happened:
    1. Bobrov really did interview people who gave him those estimates, but those people were wrong (maybe because they suffered from confirmation bias due to extrapolating from their own social circles, which opposed the referendum)
    2. Bobrov simply made up that section of his report (would explain why his colleague didn't mention something so significant), either because he himself was anti-referendum (like the other people in the expedition), or because he got paid by Ukraine (Ukraine has moles in the Russian bureaucracy just like Russia has in Ukraine's, after all, and there was a heavy information war going on at the time - to this day, actually)
    3. Those really were the true numbers, and then within a few months (when Gallop did their first survey https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimean_status_referendum#Post-referendum_polls ), Crimean approval of the referendum's results rose to over 80%, where it has stayed since (perhaps helped along by Ukraine punitively blocking their water* and electricity** supplies, and the Crimean GDP growing 55% since 2014).
    4. Those really were the true numbers, and Crimeans are consistently lying to the Western polling agencies because they're terrified of making their true feelings known.

    I also found Bobrov's name on Myrotvorets/Peacemaker, the Ukrainian state-sponsored assassination website, which is probably entirely irrelevant but still kind of bizarre. Why would you punish someone who gave your own side such good "PR material"?

    *See the last sentence here: https://www.stopfake.org/en/manipulation-ukraine-s-foreign-minister-advocates-depriving-crimea-of-water/amp/

    **https://jamestown.org/program/ukraine-stops-power-supply-to-russian-annexed-crimea/
    "In early December, no longer fearing retribution from Russian power suppliers, Kyiv restored the electricity flow to Crimea through only one of the four power lines that had been damaged in November."
    , @Ivan K.
    * Why Belorussia is Not the Ukraine

    Among other things, I'd like to understand how can Education be the Elixir of Growth, and yet the fairly well educated Ukraine ended up in this current situation.
  24. @Anatoly Karlin
    Would be in the single digits (I suspect low single digits). Most people have an instinctive reaction against giving away their territory, regardless of the benefits.

    Probably. But one can make all sort of interesting polls. If the autonomy is so broad that it means Donbas gets to veto any national policies as I believe the Minsk agreement stipulates (i.e, stop EU integration), do you prefer inclusion or expulsion? Or status quo?

  25. So sharing the video could potentially get you more jail time than Brenton Tarrant will get for killing any single one of those Muslims.

    Weird target of inevitable witch-hunt but ok.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    This is a very normal reaction.

    Livestreaming terrorist attacks, is something new, and with unknown consequences (and obviously, it would not be good if this started a social media fashion with the violently insane demographic).

    So obviously authorities will panic there, and announce such a strong punishment to try to prevent sharing. Later courts and judges will discuss, from actual cases, what is the real penalty for this (not what is randomly announced by police twitter).

    New Zealand law though, has no application to Russian or American internet, where the video is popularly shared, and where it is (as far as my limited knowledge of law) legal to watch, to host and to share.

    , @Anonymous
    NZ ISPs were blocking 4chan and 8chan after the shooting as well. NZ posters on 4chan said the ban would be extended to all ISPs soon.

    NZ police are also emailing message boards requesting IP addresses of anybody discussing the attack:

    https://imgur.com/a/0M3KAZ3

    Also Reddit has instituted a sitewide ban on both the video and the manifesto, including giving people directions on how to find them without directly linking, as well any discussion of the contents or posts that show support for the shooter (even if they are just ironic memes).

    , @Thorfinnsson
    This was also done in Scandinavia after those two retarded girls went hiking in Morocco and got raped and murdered on camera. Not that this stopped The Independent from recently recommending Morocco as a great destination for solo female travelers.

    In fairness to the authorities something should be done to discourage copycat criminals, but unsurprisingly they're going about it in the most irretrievably gay way possible.
  26. @Anatoly Karlin
    So sharing the video could potentially get you more jail time than Brenton Tarrant will get for killing any single one of those Muslims.

    https://twitter.com/ramzpaul/status/1107296109335068672

    Weird target of inevitable witch-hunt but ok.

    This is a very normal reaction.

    Livestreaming terrorist attacks, is something new, and with unknown consequences (and obviously, it would not be good if this started a social media fashion with the violently insane demographic).

    So obviously authorities will panic there, and announce such a strong punishment to try to prevent sharing. Later courts and judges will discuss, from actual cases, what is the real penalty for this (not what is randomly announced by police twitter).

    New Zealand law though, has no application to Russian or American internet, where the video is popularly shared, and where it is (as far as my limited knowledge of law) legal to watch, to host and to share.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    On 4chan somebody made the comparison between banning distribution of this video and banning the distribution of child porn, and I have to admit it gave me pause. Obviously it's easy to make the case against producing child porn, but what about circulating stuff that already exists, much of which I understand was made in Scandinavia in the 1970s, when it was legal to do so? Almost everybody will support laws against the possession of child porn on the basis that it discourages the production of such materials and also that watching child porn would increase a person's likelihood of molesting children in real life...so why not apply the same logic to the shooting video, and ban it on the basis that it encourages copycat behavior?

    Of course this is a slippery slope (Do we ban ISIS videos? Cartel executions? 9/11 footage?), but it's an interesting discussion. With the rise of social media, and everybody having a camera/video recorder with them at all times, I suspect there will be more laws against the distribution of videos of criminal/terrorist acts, even if done by third parties.
  27. @songbird
    It is mostly meaningless. US citizenship still maintains a special niche though, if you are kidnapped by terrorists for ransom - you might get shot in a crossfire with SEALs.

    In sports, the idea of national teams is a total fraud within the West. You are rooting for laundry. Probably designed by a gay, and worn by, not simply random foreigners, but hostile, parasitic invaders who support the total destruction of your country.

    I think of all the endless sports scandals to compare it to. The only thing that comes close is the trannies, which is funny because the East German doping scandal was actually a pretty big deal for decades and those people were still females, albeit with mustaches and other secondary sexual characteristics of men.

    Songbird I logged here today to ask you if you saw this newly, strange article?

    U.S. IN UFO RACE WITH CHINA, RUSSIA, FORMER SENATE MAJORITY LEADER SUGGESTS

    Former Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid dropped major hints that he knows potential adversaries, Russia and China, have carried out their own military studies to figure out how UFOs work and how to build their own,” Knapp said during the broadcast, citing anonymous Pentagon sources to claim dozens of UFOs have been encountered off the coast of Florida and Virginia in the last three years.

    https://www.newsweek.com/ufo-2019-harry-reid-china-russia-senate-unexplained-aerial-phenomena-1349256

    We were discussing Bigelow Aerospace a few weeks ago, and decided Robert Bigelow seems quite insane (which is the impression from seeing videos of him).

    But what is reliability of Harry Reid? Harry Reid is also friends with Robert Bigelow, and partly responsible for government funding of Bigelow Aerospace, so there could be some corruption there.

    In this story, Harry Reid “dropped major hints that he knows potential adversaries, Russia and China, have carried out their own military studies to figure out how UFOs work and how to build their own.”

    Nothing in Russian media is reporting this.

    In Russian media, position “UFOs are a hoax” and result of mental illness, seems like common consensus in the articles in mainstream media for the last few years. It’s strange to see American media going more in the “crazy direction” with this topic.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    Here is video related to the Newsweek article:

    At 2:37, lol involvement of John McCain

    At 3:28 - about missiles and Russia, which I'm not sure this all could be cover for.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0NJRXBLhB0

    , @LondonBob
    UFOs were a cover story for experimental aircraft, the Soviets always hinted they knew this anyway.

    Still I met a Soviet cosmonaut who said he saw all sorts of weird and wonderful stuff when he went into space, the Soviet authorities told him to keep his mouth shut when he got back. Still I would expect there to be unusual phenomenon in space, not necessarily indicative of intelligent life.
    , @songbird
    That is funny. I appreciate you bringing it to my attention, for I had not seen it.

    I was scratching my head for a moment: where had I heard UFOs in politics before? Hillary Clinton when she was the Democratic front-runner in 2016 brought up the idea that she would do an investigation into what UFO secrets the government was hiding, if elected. The idea came originally from her campaign manager Podesta who has made many previous remarks about including when he was an advisor for the Obama Administration.

    Podesta apparently wrote the forward to some fringe book in 2011 by Leslie Kean, called "UFOs: Generals, Pilots, and Government Officials Go on the Record." I feel like I must find it now, to see if it touches on this triple race to develop UFO tech. In 2015 or so, Bill Clinton actually made remarks about trying to find out what happened in Roswell, when he was president.

    With Hillary, I can't help but think that there was there weird drive, not just specifically because of Podesta, but because it presented a facade of radical transparency, when it was for instance widely known she had been using her own email system, against regulations.

    In the case of Harry Reid, it is impossible to ignore that Bigelow was a donor to him. $22 million may not seem like a lot to award a billionaire like Bigelow, but it was at least indulging him in his insanity at taxpayer expense. The other senators involved, Ted Stevens and Inouye don't have a good record. Stevens wanted to build "a bridge to nowhere" in Alaska for $398 million.

    BTW, that UFO author I mentioned, Leslie Kean, was apparently involved in the NYT UFO research story, along with two other authors. NYT has published a few such stories. She seems like a genuine crazy person.
  28. @Dmitry
    Songbird I logged here today to ask you if you saw this newly, strange article?

    U.S. IN UFO RACE WITH CHINA, RUSSIA, FORMER SENATE MAJORITY LEADER SUGGESTS

    Former Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid dropped major hints that he knows potential adversaries, Russia and China, have carried out their own military studies to figure out how UFOs work and how to build their own,” Knapp said during the broadcast, citing anonymous Pentagon sources to claim dozens of UFOs have been encountered off the coast of Florida and Virginia in the last three years.

     

    https://www.newsweek.com/ufo-2019-harry-reid-china-russia-senate-unexplained-aerial-phenomena-1349256

    We were discussing Bigelow Aerospace a few weeks ago, and decided Robert Bigelow seems quite insane (which is the impression from seeing videos of him).

    But what is reliability of Harry Reid? Harry Reid is also friends with Robert Bigelow, and partly responsible for government funding of Bigelow Aerospace, so there could be some corruption there.

    In this story, Harry Reid "dropped major hints that he knows potential adversaries, Russia and China, have carried out their own military studies to figure out how UFOs work and how to build their own."

    Nothing in Russian media is reporting this.

    In Russian media, position "UFOs are a hoax" and result of mental illness, seems like common consensus in the articles in mainstream media for the last few years. It's strange to see American media going more in the "crazy direction" with this topic.

    Here is video related to the Newsweek article:

    At 2:37, lol involvement of John McCain

    At 3:28 – about missiles and Russia, which I’m not sure this all could be cover for.

    • Replies: @songbird
    I'm of two minds about the origin of this idea that the U.S. is falling behind on UFO research:

    One is that is a rhetorical ploy for legitimacy.

    The other is that it just a natural result of the culture and the craziness that it spawns. Like the 2008 movie "Indiana Jones and the Crystal Skull" where the Soviets invade Area-51. The idealized setting for aliens in America really is the 1950s. I wonder if this common movie aesthetic could help influence the subconscious brain of susceptible individuals into forming the idea that America is behind.
  29. @The Big Red Scary

    recent curtailment of the Tatar language there)
     
    A while back you posted some German video about this, which I actually bothered to watch. You might note that what changed in Tatarstan was that the *requirement* for everyone to study Tatar was lifted. You can still teach it and study it if you want to, and so far as I can tell, those activities are still funded by the government.

    I'm not familiar with language policy in Ukraine, so will not comment on that.

    File under: Big Brother Knows Best:

    The decision to make the language an elective subject and only undertaken with parental approval was made after a Moscow-driven push to abandon mandatory traditional language lessons. The move has sparked concern among Tatar advocates who believe the decision will ‘undermine Tatarstan’s cultural identity’, and discourage the ‘learning of the language of [an] indigenous ethnic group’, which is against the Republic’s constitution. Some have even argued that the decision will be the end of the language itself, which remains to be seen.

    https://theculturetrip.com/europe/russia/articles/will-the-tatar-language-become-extinct/

    The decision came down from Moscow and not Kazan. What was wrong with the way things were? What precipitated the need to change things?

    • Replies: @Denis

    The decision came down from Moscow and not Kazan. What was wrong with the way things were? What precipitated the need to change things?
     
    Your questions can be answered with another question: Why should the Russian government promote yet another national identity within its borders, unless it is for some reason absolutely necessary? As we have seen with Ukraine, promoting distinct languages is practically equivalent to promoting distinct national identities.

    "One does not inhabit a country; one inhabits a language. That is our country, our fatherland -- and no other" - Emil Cioran
    , @Philip Owen
    Unless it is mandatory, Tatar will die. Language campaigners know this. Treason is afoot in Tatarstan.
    , @The Big Red Scary
    I was neither criticizing nor supporting the change, just pointing out that there is an obvious difference between banning the teaching of X and making the study of X non-compulsory.

    The reason that compulsory courses in Tatar were unpopular is because something like half the residents of Tatarstan are native speakers of Russian. You can argue that these Russians are being petty, but learning a language is a major investment of time, and for anyone who is not a Tatar, this has a huge opportunity cost. Wouldn't you rather have your kids learning English, French, German, Chinese, Japanese, or any other from a long list of languages? Presumably if Ukrainians living in the Hungarian-speaking part of Ukraine had to take mandatory courses in Hungarian, they'd be annoyed too.

    Admittedly, the end result may very well be the death of the Tatar language, but ultimately that's the responsibility of the Tatars themselves.

    So now that I think of it, yes, it seems like a reasonable policy.

    , @anonymous coward

    The decision came down from Moscow and not Kazan.
     
    Says who? Your deranged lying self?

    What was wrong with the way things were?
     
    Usually with these things the biggest campaigners against minority languages are other (non-titular) minority ethnicities.
    , @Thorfinnsson
    Presumably the same reason Ron Unz campaigned for monolingual English-language instruction in the California public school system.

    Tatarstan and neighboring Bashkortostan also flirt with separatism on occasion. Around the turn of the century for instance Bashkortostan announced that it would stop remitting taxes to the federation.

    A central thread of Putin's regime has been opposition to separatism, so it's not surprising Russia chose to squash linguistic separatism in Tatarstan.
  30. @Mr. Hack
    File under: Big Brother Knows Best:

    The decision to make the language an elective subject and only undertaken with parental approval was made after a Moscow-driven push to abandon mandatory traditional language lessons. The move has sparked concern among Tatar advocates who believe the decision will ‘undermine Tatarstan’s cultural identity’, and discourage the ‘learning of the language of [an] indigenous ethnic group’, which is against the Republic’s constitution. Some have even argued that the decision will be the end of the language itself, which remains to be seen.

     

    https://theculturetrip.com/europe/russia/articles/will-the-tatar-language-become-extinct/

    The decision came down from Moscow and not Kazan. What was wrong with the way things were? What precipitated the need to change things?

    The decision came down from Moscow and not Kazan. What was wrong with the way things were? What precipitated the need to change things?

    Your questions can be answered with another question: Why should the Russian government promote yet another national identity within its borders, unless it is for some reason absolutely necessary? As we have seen with Ukraine, promoting distinct languages is practically equivalent to promoting distinct national identities.

    “One does not inhabit a country; one inhabits a language. That is our country, our fatherland — and no other” – Emil Cioran

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    You make a good point. If Russia wishes to become a unitary state, then indeed it need not encourage the development and usage of the Tartar language. But let me remind you that Russia, at least formally, defines itself as being a federative state where separate nationalities have constitutional rights enshrined to develop and protect minority language rights within its constituent republics, like the Republic of Tartastan. Ukraine, having even a more autonomous stature within the Soviet Union was a separate state and therefore never needed (at least theoretically) outside direction in setting its own internal state policies - certainly not after 1991 since it left the orbit of the Soviet Union. BTW, Ukraine has defined itself as a unitary state, not a federative one.
  31. Anonymous[151] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anatoly Karlin
    So sharing the video could potentially get you more jail time than Brenton Tarrant will get for killing any single one of those Muslims.

    https://twitter.com/ramzpaul/status/1107296109335068672

    Weird target of inevitable witch-hunt but ok.

    NZ ISPs were blocking 4chan and 8chan after the shooting as well. NZ posters on 4chan said the ban would be extended to all ISPs soon.

    NZ police are also emailing message boards requesting IP addresses of anybody discussing the attack:

    View post on imgur.com

    Also Reddit has instituted a sitewide ban on both the video and the manifesto, including giving people directions on how to find them without directly linking, as well any discussion of the contents or posts that show support for the shooter (even if they are just ironic memes).

    • Replies: @216
    To my understanding, the NZ police state is far less developed than its other Anglo counterparts, as a consequence of NZ being rather boring and choosing to have Australia shoulder its defense burden. So this slapstick method shouldn't be that surprising, they have nil experience in this behavior.

    Now they are going to get the police state good and hard, and most of the population is going to cheer it on.

    The consequences of this attack will be felt for years to come, especially if there are retalitory attacks.

    Anglo far-right politics is particularly nihlistic, individualistic and useless. Practically no one is going to own up and apologize about fanning the flames against Islam, which hasn't managed to deliver any cuts in immigration, but has led to counterproductive violent acts.
  32. @Mr. Hack
    File under: Big Brother Knows Best:

    The decision to make the language an elective subject and only undertaken with parental approval was made after a Moscow-driven push to abandon mandatory traditional language lessons. The move has sparked concern among Tatar advocates who believe the decision will ‘undermine Tatarstan’s cultural identity’, and discourage the ‘learning of the language of [an] indigenous ethnic group’, which is against the Republic’s constitution. Some have even argued that the decision will be the end of the language itself, which remains to be seen.

     

    https://theculturetrip.com/europe/russia/articles/will-the-tatar-language-become-extinct/

    The decision came down from Moscow and not Kazan. What was wrong with the way things were? What precipitated the need to change things?

    Unless it is mandatory, Tatar will die. Language campaigners know this. Treason is afoot in Tatarstan.

    • Replies: @g2k
    Will it, though? It'll certainly decline, but if there's enthusiasm for it to continue, it will. Dagestan has about 70 languages and only about six are compulsory, there are pockets of Greek speakers dotted around that still survive. Tatar isnt even that parochial as there's at least some mutual intelligibility with turkish.
  33. @Anonymous
    NZ ISPs were blocking 4chan and 8chan after the shooting as well. NZ posters on 4chan said the ban would be extended to all ISPs soon.

    NZ police are also emailing message boards requesting IP addresses of anybody discussing the attack:

    https://imgur.com/a/0M3KAZ3

    Also Reddit has instituted a sitewide ban on both the video and the manifesto, including giving people directions on how to find them without directly linking, as well any discussion of the contents or posts that show support for the shooter (even if they are just ironic memes).

    To my understanding, the NZ police state is far less developed than its other Anglo counterparts, as a consequence of NZ being rather boring and choosing to have Australia shoulder its defense burden. So this slapstick method shouldn’t be that surprising, they have nil experience in this behavior.

    Now they are going to get the police state good and hard, and most of the population is going to cheer it on.

    The consequences of this attack will be felt for years to come, especially if there are retalitory attacks.

    Anglo far-right politics is particularly nihlistic, individualistic and useless. Practically no one is going to own up and apologize about fanning the flames against Islam, which hasn’t managed to deliver any cuts in immigration, but has led to counterproductive violent acts.

    • Agree: utu
    • Replies: @notanon

    Anglo far-right politics
     
    interesting how many on both Left and Right have been Anglos: guy who shot up the GOPe congressmen, Paddock (if it was him who did it), bike lock antifa guy, redneck revolt antifa guy - probably means something, not sure what.

    (even Brievik if you include Holland and south and west Scandi as Anglo)
    , @Thorfinnsson


    To my understanding, the NZ police state is far less developed than its other Anglo counterparts, as a consequence of NZ being rather boring and choosing to have Australia shoulder its defense burden.
     
    New Zealand is effectively defenseless. The country doesn't even have an air force, as an Australian commenter on another forum once pointed out. He was very confused as to why Australia didn't immediately invade in light of this, which resulted in much flustered huffing and puffing from the pozzed Australians on the board.

    The US suspended its defense treaty obligations (ANZUS Treaty) to New Zealand in the 1980s as a result of New Zealand's exceptionally gay law forbidding nuclear-powered ships from entering NZ waters or ports.

    I don't understand why the US, or the world, allows such wrongism. We should take a page from the French, who in a particularly glorious episode of their history used secret agents to destroy the Greenpeace protest vessel Rainbow Warrior and then threatened to destroy the New Zealand economy when they had the temerity to complain (unfortunately France did later apologize to NZ).

    All of the countries operating nuclear vessels (US, Russia, UK, France, and China to my knowledge) should put together a joint taskforce of nuclear ships laden with nuclear waste (also forbidden by NZ law) into New Zealand waters and immediately commence dumping the waste overboard. The waste to be sealed in safe casks of course. If New Zealand complains the taskforce should bomb Wellington and Auckland. The taskforce should only depart when New Zealand apologizes for being wrong and repeals its disgusting law.

    On the return trip the taskforce can bomb Berlin.
  34. @Mr. Hack
    File under: Big Brother Knows Best:

    The decision to make the language an elective subject and only undertaken with parental approval was made after a Moscow-driven push to abandon mandatory traditional language lessons. The move has sparked concern among Tatar advocates who believe the decision will ‘undermine Tatarstan’s cultural identity’, and discourage the ‘learning of the language of [an] indigenous ethnic group’, which is against the Republic’s constitution. Some have even argued that the decision will be the end of the language itself, which remains to be seen.

     

    https://theculturetrip.com/europe/russia/articles/will-the-tatar-language-become-extinct/

    The decision came down from Moscow and not Kazan. What was wrong with the way things were? What precipitated the need to change things?

    I was neither criticizing nor supporting the change, just pointing out that there is an obvious difference between banning the teaching of X and making the study of X non-compulsory.

    The reason that compulsory courses in Tatar were unpopular is because something like half the residents of Tatarstan are native speakers of Russian. You can argue that these Russians are being petty, but learning a language is a major investment of time, and for anyone who is not a Tatar, this has a huge opportunity cost. Wouldn’t you rather have your kids learning English, French, German, Chinese, Japanese, or any other from a long list of languages? Presumably if Ukrainians living in the Hungarian-speaking part of Ukraine had to take mandatory courses in Hungarian, they’d be annoyed too.

    Admittedly, the end result may very well be the death of the Tatar language, but ultimately that’s the responsibility of the Tatars themselves.

    So now that I think of it, yes, it seems like a reasonable policy.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    I was critical of IR's insincere attempt to try and paint the Russian language issue in Ukraine as a unique problem, only to exist in Ukraine and nowhere else. His weak analysis of the situation could only point to the policies within fascist Italy as a comparison, whereas, I could point out a similar situation going on in neighboring Russia. I found one good article that goes into a bit more depth than others, and is worth reading if you're really interested in the issues at hand complete with an ominous warning for Kremlin think tanks:

    Moreover, whereas nationalist movements in Tatarstan in the 1990s had been mostly secular, in the future they may be likely to clericalize. As in the case of many once stateless nations, such as Ireland or Poland, religion in Tatarstan appears to be the last bastion of national identity...While the republic’s secular institutions have totally capitulated before the will of Moscow, religious authorities have tried to compensate for their failure, insisting on the wider use of national language, opening free courses of Tatar language and culture in mosques and switching all the preaching in Tatarstan mosques from Russian to the Tatar language.
     
    https://warontherocks.com/2018/01/moscows-fight-against-federalism-fear-and-loathing-in-russias-catalonia/
    , @melanf

    like half the residents of Tatarstan are native speakers of Russian.
     
    Half of the population of Tatarstan is ethnically non-Tatars. But Russian is the "native" language for almost the entire population of Tatarstan-so it is the language of communication of the majority of Tatars

    Actress Chulpan Khamatova (ethnically 100% Tatar from Kazan) in a recent interview described as a curiosity the Tatars from the village, who really know the Tatar language. Khamatova herself does not know Tatar. She remembers the teacher of the Tatar language at school as Hitler's likeness.
  35. @The Big Red Scary
    I was neither criticizing nor supporting the change, just pointing out that there is an obvious difference between banning the teaching of X and making the study of X non-compulsory.

    The reason that compulsory courses in Tatar were unpopular is because something like half the residents of Tatarstan are native speakers of Russian. You can argue that these Russians are being petty, but learning a language is a major investment of time, and for anyone who is not a Tatar, this has a huge opportunity cost. Wouldn't you rather have your kids learning English, French, German, Chinese, Japanese, or any other from a long list of languages? Presumably if Ukrainians living in the Hungarian-speaking part of Ukraine had to take mandatory courses in Hungarian, they'd be annoyed too.

    Admittedly, the end result may very well be the death of the Tatar language, but ultimately that's the responsibility of the Tatars themselves.

    So now that I think of it, yes, it seems like a reasonable policy.

    I was critical of IR’s insincere attempt to try and paint the Russian language issue in Ukraine as a unique problem, only to exist in Ukraine and nowhere else. His weak analysis of the situation could only point to the policies within fascist Italy as a comparison, whereas, I could point out a similar situation going on in neighboring Russia. I found one good article that goes into a bit more depth than others, and is worth reading if you’re really interested in the issues at hand complete with an ominous warning for Kremlin think tanks:

    Moreover, whereas nationalist movements in Tatarstan in the 1990s had been mostly secular, in the future they may be likely to clericalize. As in the case of many once stateless nations, such as Ireland or Poland, religion in Tatarstan appears to be the last bastion of national identity…While the republic’s secular institutions have totally capitulated before the will of Moscow, religious authorities have tried to compensate for their failure, insisting on the wider use of national language, opening free courses of Tatar language and culture in mosques and switching all the preaching in Tatarstan mosques from Russian to the Tatar language.

    https://warontherocks.com/2018/01/moscows-fight-against-federalism-fear-and-loathing-in-russias-catalonia/

  36. Anonymous[151] • Disclaimer says:

    Mussolini post from a few days ago reminded me of this funny video:

    Basically this black YouTube rapper guy Bello FiGo, who lives in Italy, releases these songs playing on right-wing tropes about immigrants, bragging about how he pays no rent, sleeps in 4-star hotels paid for by the government etc. Pure troll, even holds concerts where immigrants are charged a lower entrance fee than native Italians.

    He is invited on this right-wing talk show to explain/defend himself, with Alessandra Mussolini (Il Duce’s granddaughter and a right-wing politician in Italy) as another guest. Mussolini doesn’t get the joke and goes into stereotypical “angry Italian woman” mode, to which the rapper responds with even more absurd trolling, saying that immigrants should be allowed to steal stuff from native Italians because they’re oppressed etc, which of course only makes Mussolini angrier. The rapper ends the interview by dabbing on her (then a novelty in Italy).

    And that’s the story of how Benito Mussolini’s granddaughter got dabbed on by a black YouTube troll.

    https://onlinguafranca.com/2017/03/10/a-whole-country-trolled-by-a-rapper/

  37. AP says:

    Interesting trivia.

    One can guess the origins of certain Ukrainians by surnames. The surname -enko is found in Kiev oblast and points east, -uk is found from Galicia and Volyn to Vynnytsia and Zhytomir, except for Transcarpathia:

    https://pollotenchegg.livejournal.com/2019/03/06/

    It seems to follow the post 1650 border – places that remained in Poland after 1650 have -uks, places that left have -enkos.

    Lviv is an island of -enkos in the West. I suspect this is because a lot of people from central Ukraine settled the city when the Soviets took over.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    Careful AP, you're giving Russophiles yet another reason to split Ukraine up into seprate pieces. I hope that Beckow doesn't read your comment! :-)
  38. @216
    To my understanding, the NZ police state is far less developed than its other Anglo counterparts, as a consequence of NZ being rather boring and choosing to have Australia shoulder its defense burden. So this slapstick method shouldn't be that surprising, they have nil experience in this behavior.

    Now they are going to get the police state good and hard, and most of the population is going to cheer it on.

    The consequences of this attack will be felt for years to come, especially if there are retalitory attacks.

    Anglo far-right politics is particularly nihlistic, individualistic and useless. Practically no one is going to own up and apologize about fanning the flames against Islam, which hasn't managed to deliver any cuts in immigration, but has led to counterproductive violent acts.

    Anglo far-right politics

    interesting how many on both Left and Right have been Anglos: guy who shot up the GOPe congressmen, Paddock (if it was him who did it), bike lock antifa guy, redneck revolt antifa guy – probably means something, not sure what.

    (even Brievik if you include Holland and south and west Scandi as Anglo)

  39. @Jayce
    Virginia city commemorates Imperial Russian sailors.

    https://www.facebook.com/RusEmbUSA/posts/983077041902686?__tn__=K-R

    Russian sailors have done some very good things for us.

    I hold basically to the 19th century GOP platform, which means I’m a horrible racist in today’s media eyes. Anyway, I believe the Union cause was generally correct. And people who think that “Union cause” = “gay liberalism” are ignorant; the average Northern soldier hated slavery because he wanted America free for white people. And I’m happy to say that the Russian Navy played a brief, forgotten, but rather vital role in helping the Union win. The British and the French were close to intervening. More importantly, the British were about to send the Confederates some ironclads that could have been used to decisively break the Union blockade.

    Well, the Russians, as part of their own conflict with the British and French, sent much of their navy to San Francisco and New York – partly as an official state visit, but mostly as a strategic ploy during a war scare between those 3 European powers.

    The Russians could never have beaten the British in open naval combat, but the Russian plan was to use their ships as commerce raiders, based apparently out of America, in the event of war. Now THAT scared the British, who knew full well how devastating commerce raiding could be. The Russian presence in America served Russian interests just as it served the Union Navy’s interests, and, ultimately, the British plan for introducing strong ironclads into the war was broken.

    So: thanks, Russia! Glad our interests could intersect.

    But even in Civil War historiography, we cannot escape absurd Russophobia. I heard a historian (he’s otherwise pretty good) recently mention the presence of Russian ships in NY and SF then, and argue that it was indicative that the Russians too – like the British and French – were interested in intervening on behalf of the Confederates. This is a ridiculous statement, which any 5 minute study of 19th century Russian strategy would reveal, but this is the ignorance among even smart people.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    I don't know if you saw it in the other open thread but I found an English-language lecture by Dmowski:


    I looked around and I found a lecture Poland, Old and New given by Dmowski in English in the anthology of lectures (Russian Realities and Problems) given in 1916 at Trinity College.

    https://ia801408.us.archive.org/30/items/cu31924028376014
     
    http://www.unz.com/akarlin/open-thread-70/#comment-3094084
    , @LondonBob
    The greatest strategic mistake in British history was not intervening on behalf of the Confederacy, welcoming the Southern states back in to the family would have made the Empire unstoppable. Ultimately Russian ships or not there wasn't the popular support to intervene, and investments in Northern states as well as corn imports were too economically important.
    , @Thorfinnsson

    And people who think that “Union cause” = “gay liberalism” are ignorant; the average Northern soldier hated slavery because he wanted America free for white people.
     
    A substantial fraction of Northerners at the time hated slavery because they believed it was evil. Some even believed blacks were equal to whites. This is gay liberalism.

    Ending slavery also caused a major collapse of Southern agricultural productivity (cotton yields only recovered to the 1860 level in 1890), which in turn meant a relative decrease in American exports. Cotton was the largest American export until 1937. Freeing the slaves also entailed the effective destruction of a vast amount of capital (slaves being the largest stock of capital in America in 1860--worth more than all factories, banks, and railroads combined) and thus ruined the capital stock, credit, and prosperity of the South until WW2.

    Destroying the Slave Power was necessary. Eliminating slavery itself within the South was 19th century SJW bullshit. The victorious North could've easily passed Constitutional amendments prohibiting the expansion of slavery, promoting the gradual deportation of negroes, and mandating protectionism.

    Instead they passed Constitutional amendments ending slavery and giving negroes citizenship.

    Gay liberalism.

  40. @Mr. Hack
    It's your blog and you can do whatever you like AK, however, I don't understand why you keep plugging IR's blog? He's totally unlike you in that he doesn't appreciate any commentary that he might find inconveniently contradictory to the BS (not that you often post BS) that he's trying to push. He had the gaul to ban me from his blog because of the awful sin of whataboutism. He posted a thread that tried to besmearch Ukraine for having an unreasonable language policy and compared it to that of fascist Italy (apparently he doesn't share your views about Mussolini), whereas I tried to point out that Ukraine’s language policies are very similar to those in Russia (pointing out the recent curtailment of the Tatar language there). For my money, you'd even be doing your readers a favor by pushing Mike Averko's blog, a guy with whom I seldom agree, who often posts interesting comments here, but is definitely a more balanced blogger and somebody who doesn't exhibit these strange and out of date sovok tendencies. Seriously! :-)

    Ukraine for having an unreasonable language policy

    Unreasonable means badly thought out and likely to cause more harm than good. It is easy to see that Kiev’s post-Maidan language policies have indeed been unreasonable : they have backfired.

    Tatarstan is a different local issue, but in any case even if there would be similarities the test is whether Kiev’s language policy has made Ukraine better and stronger. I has not, it has made it weaker. To engage in self-defeating policies in many areas and claim that ‘others have also been doing it‘ is insane. Yes, France had a tough unifying language policy, but they didn’t introduce it in the middle of a civil war. There is a good time for everything, as it is, it looks to outside observers that Kiev is just twisting around in agony.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack

    the test is whether Kiev’s language policy has made Ukraine better and stronger. I has not, it has made it weaker.
     
    Just how exactly has Kyiv's language policy made Ukraine worse off and weaker? Many countries in the world give preference to the titular nation's native tongue. In Ukraine's case, it makes even more sense because Ukraine is trying to shed the ugly side of its imperial past, both during Czarist times and during Soviet times too. This past includesd a long history of policies that favored russification used to foster a sense of belonging to imperial states that no longer exist today.
    , @AP

    Tatarstan is a different local issue, but in any case even if there would be similarities the test is whether Kiev’s language policy has made Ukraine better and stronger. I has not, it has made it weaker.
     
    Only if you consider the effect on the Donbas territories, which de facto are no longer in Ukraine. OTOH the policies have consolidated the rest of the country.
  41. @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan
    Russian sailors have done some very good things for us.

    I hold basically to the 19th century GOP platform, which means I'm a horrible racist in today's media eyes. Anyway, I believe the Union cause was generally correct. And people who think that "Union cause" = "gay liberalism" are ignorant; the average Northern soldier hated slavery because he wanted America free for white people. And I'm happy to say that the Russian Navy played a brief, forgotten, but rather vital role in helping the Union win. The British and the French were close to intervening. More importantly, the British were about to send the Confederates some ironclads that could have been used to decisively break the Union blockade.

    Well, the Russians, as part of their own conflict with the British and French, sent much of their navy to San Francisco and New York - partly as an official state visit, but mostly as a strategic ploy during a war scare between those 3 European powers.

    The Russians could never have beaten the British in open naval combat, but the Russian plan was to use their ships as commerce raiders, based apparently out of America, in the event of war. Now THAT scared the British, who knew full well how devastating commerce raiding could be. The Russian presence in America served Russian interests just as it served the Union Navy's interests, and, ultimately, the British plan for introducing strong ironclads into the war was broken.

    So: thanks, Russia! Glad our interests could intersect.

    But even in Civil War historiography, we cannot escape absurd Russophobia. I heard a historian (he's otherwise pretty good) recently mention the presence of Russian ships in NY and SF then, and argue that it was indicative that the Russians too - like the British and French - were interested in intervening on behalf of the Confederates. This is a ridiculous statement, which any 5 minute study of 19th century Russian strategy would reveal, but this is the ignorance among even smart people.

    I don’t know if you saw it in the other open thread but I found an English-language lecture by Dmowski:

    I looked around and I found a lecture Poland, Old and New given by Dmowski in English in the anthology of lectures (Russian Realities and Problems) given in 1916 at Trinity College.

    https://ia801408.us.archive.org/30/items/cu31924028376014

    http://www.unz.com/akarlin/open-thread-70/#comment-3094084

    • Replies: @utu
    Roman Dmowski on The Ukraine Question
    https://theimaginativeconservative.org/2014/07/ukraine-question-1930-part.html
    , @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan
    Thanks!
  42. @Beckow

    Ukraine for having an unreasonable language policy
     
    Unreasonable means badly thought out and likely to cause more harm than good. It is easy to see that Kiev's post-Maidan language policies have indeed been unreasonable : they have backfired.

    Tatarstan is a different local issue, but in any case even if there would be similarities the test is whether Kiev's language policy has made Ukraine better and stronger. I has not, it has made it weaker. To engage in self-defeating policies in many areas and claim that 'others have also been doing it' is insane. Yes, France had a tough unifying language policy, but they didn't introduce it in the middle of a civil war. There is a good time for everything, as it is, it looks to outside observers that Kiev is just twisting around in agony.

    the test is whether Kiev’s language policy has made Ukraine better and stronger. I has not, it has made it weaker.

    Just how exactly has Kyiv’s language policy made Ukraine worse off and weaker? Many countries in the world give preference to the titular nation’s native tongue. In Ukraine’s case, it makes even more sense because Ukraine is trying to shed the ugly side of its imperial past, both during Czarist times and during Soviet times too. This past includesd a long history of policies that favored russification used to foster a sense of belonging to imperial states that no longer exist today.

    • Replies: @Beckow

    how exactly has Kyiv’s language policy made Ukraine worse off and weaker?

     

    We have an easy test: let's say the language policy stayed the same after Maidan, Russians were not attacked and demonised (e.g. Odessa), Bandera marches were discouraged: would Ukraine today be stronger or weaker? You tell me.

    in Ukraine’s case, it makes even more sense because Ukraine is trying to shed the ugly side of its imperial past
     
    Many countries have minorities and ugly history: Irish with English, Hungarians in Romania-Slovakia, Turks in Bulgaria, Austrians in Italy, Basques, Swedes in Finland, Flemish in Belgium, and on and on. They have handled it differently, with a compromise and a mutual understanding. That is the European way that you yell about so much. Ukraine will never be in EU with an unresolved minority policies with its Russians, Hungarians etc... Kiev's neo-con advisors don't care, the Ukrainians should.
  43. If nobody is going to mention the recent Slovak presidential election (1st phase) then I will. Basically a contest between a eurocrat and a neoliberal candidate in the upcoming final phase. All nationalists got BTFO’d. Slovakia is not a big country, but they cannot afford to to slacken up. The issue of corruption is a real concern, and the right-wing is foolish to ignore it. Now they will end up with a liberal president who will not hesitate to interfere in other matters at will, such as vetoing laws that the parliament passes in order to be ‘pro-European’, which is code for being a toadie of Brussels.

    The president of Slovakia is not powerless. He or she can veto laws and, much more importantly, has the power to appoint senior judges. Anyone who thinks the judiciary doesn’t matter should spend a few moments looking at how it thwarted Trump at every turn early on in his presidency before he completly folded and sold out.

    Overall, a bad development for Slovakia and surprisingly so, given how they are usually portrayed as ‘based’. This election got them brutually exposed as much weaker and more pathetic than commonly believed. Perhaps they should be cut up among their neighbours, since they are the slavic version of Belgium anyway, given that they cannot be trusted to rule themselves and are clearly too incompetent to do so.

  44. @Thorfinnsson
    The 737 MAX 8 fiasco is looking increasingly bad for Boeing--and the FAA (which was overruled by Trump to ground the aircraft). The fitting of the new extreme bypass CFM International LEAP turbofan engines necessitated awkward forward, elevated placement of the engines which altered the handling characteristics of the aircraft. This makes it likely to nose into a stall condition, which Boeing addressed with software called Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System (MCAS).

    The software is on when autopilot is off, has a single point of failure (angle of attack sensor vane), and can only be shut off by cutting electric power to the subsystem. The original 737 MAX manual left out this information. Boeing was deliberately vague about all of this in order to expedite type certification and reassure airlines that pilot retraining would be cheap since it's another 737 (most produced airliner in history).

    Boeing blamed Lion Air for the first crash, and after this second crash I see many commenters (mostly American I assume) elsewhere on this site blaming Air Ethiopia. No doubt Third World airlines have lower standards, but that's insufficient to explain two hull loses in half a year on a new aircraft type. These Third Worlders aren't constantly crashing 737NGs or, it should be pointed out, the competing Airbus A320 Neo which spurred the development of the 737 MAX in the first place. Hat tip Reiner Tor for this take.

    In a way this was caused by the failure of the 787's extreme outsourcing strategy. This delayed the introduction of that type and ran up tens of billions of costs. Boeing's original plan had been to follow the 787 and 777X with a clean sheet single aisle design to completely replace the 737. It lacked the time and resources to do so after cleaning up the 787 outsourcing mess, and then the Airbus A320 Neo appeared and started racking up huge orders. Boeing was left with no choice but to make do with what is now a 50+ year old aircraft. New engines were awkwardly fitted and some minor aerodynamic improvements were made.

    It's worth pointing out just how old the 737 really is. The aircraft entered service at the height of the Vietnam War. Contemporary competitors, all long withdrawn from revenue services, included the BAC One-Eleven, the Sud Aviation Caravelle, the Douglas DC-9, the Fokker F28, and the Tupolev Tu-134. The 737 has changed so much over the years that it no longer serves in its original niche (short haul 100 seat or less) market which has been taken over by larger regional jets. The 737 was also not a fundamentally new design, but a derivative of the 707 which first flew in 1957 back when the only country which had successfully put a payload into orbit was the USSR and John Lennon was still an ugly loser playing for peanuts in Church gardens.

    There's also something very human about this debacle. Boeing was one of the best performing large cap stocks in recent times, and its 787 had conquered the skyways. The new 777X, free of the outsourcing debacles of the 787, racked up gigantic orders and forced the Airbus A380--the pride of Europe--into an early and unceremonious retirement. The new 737 MAX was holding its own against the A320 Neo and one of the fastest new sellers in history. Boeing was a darling of the new American President, and its CEO was routinely toasted by the Davos set. Like Icarus, Boeing flew too close to the sun.

    Lastly, we all know this has been pushed off the front page by the terrorist attack in New Zealand. This is obviously the worst outcome of that incident, as the 737 MAX story is much more interesting in (and has a far higher body count). The timing is unfortunate...or perhaps very convenient. Was the NZ terrorist attack in fact a false flag incident staged by Boeing to escape the world's gaze?

    Boeing should have kept the 757 and 717. Those are still best sellers dispite being out of production for over 10 years now.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    The 717 competed in the 100 seat market, which the 737 hasn't since the 1970s. Boeing and Airbus chose not to compete in this market, though Boeing's effort to strangle Bombardier has resulted in Airbus' return through its purchase of the C-Series program from Bombardier (now the Airbus A220).

    Had the 757 stayed in production perhaps Boeing wouldn't be in this mess. The unproduced 757-100 variant had seating capacity comparable to the larger 737 MAX variants but flew with larger, heavier engines and an appropriate landing gear to deal with large diameter turbofan engines.

    Obvious solution would've been a 757 with LEAP-1A and PW-1000G engines, a shorter fuselage, and various weight-saving technologies where feasible (control surfaces, APU, FCS, avionics, etc.).

    As it is the 757-200 (remember, there was a smaller variant that was not ordered) is not much larger than the 737 MAX 10.

    In fact the Airbus A320 originally emerged out of the Joint European Transport (JET) study to challenge the emerging 757, NOT the 737. At the time the 737 was a smaller aircraft and there were a number of competing airliners in the same market already made in Europe.
  45. Anonymous[151] • Disclaimer says:
    @Dmitry
    This is a very normal reaction.

    Livestreaming terrorist attacks, is something new, and with unknown consequences (and obviously, it would not be good if this started a social media fashion with the violently insane demographic).

    So obviously authorities will panic there, and announce such a strong punishment to try to prevent sharing. Later courts and judges will discuss, from actual cases, what is the real penalty for this (not what is randomly announced by police twitter).

    New Zealand law though, has no application to Russian or American internet, where the video is popularly shared, and where it is (as far as my limited knowledge of law) legal to watch, to host and to share.

    On 4chan somebody made the comparison between banning distribution of this video and banning the distribution of child porn, and I have to admit it gave me pause. Obviously it’s easy to make the case against producing child porn, but what about circulating stuff that already exists, much of which I understand was made in Scandinavia in the 1970s, when it was legal to do so? Almost everybody will support laws against the possession of child porn on the basis that it discourages the production of such materials and also that watching child porn would increase a person’s likelihood of molesting children in real life…so why not apply the same logic to the shooting video, and ban it on the basis that it encourages copycat behavior?

    Of course this is a slippery slope (Do we ban ISIS videos? Cartel executions? 9/11 footage?), but it’s an interesting discussion. With the rise of social media, and everybody having a camera/video recorder with them at all times, I suspect there will be more laws against the distribution of videos of criminal/terrorist acts, even if done by third parties.

    • Replies: @Anarcho-Supremacist
    I am a free speech absolutist on these issues. I want to get rid of the Miller Test beccause I am afried it will one day be used to ban "hate speech".
    , @silviosilver
    Don't pornographers do it to make money though? No one is gonna make money from going on a shooting spree and posting it.
  46. @Hyperborean
    I don't know if you saw it in the other open thread but I found an English-language lecture by Dmowski:


    I looked around and I found a lecture Poland, Old and New given by Dmowski in English in the anthology of lectures (Russian Realities and Problems) given in 1916 at Trinity College.

    https://ia801408.us.archive.org/30/items/cu31924028376014
     
    http://www.unz.com/akarlin/open-thread-70/#comment-3094084
    • Replies: @AP
    Rather insightful, though not as reflective of reality as it might seem. OTOH, Dmowski and his followers massively bungled things both internally and externally for interwar Poland so his insight did not translate into good policy.
  47. anon[184] • Disclaimer says:

    “Former Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid dropped major hints that he knows potential adversaries, Russia and China, have carried out their own military studies to figure out how UFOs work and how to build their own,””

    Harry Reid once floated a multi-million dollar UFO study that benefited his own district, or one of his donors, IIRC. So, caution is advised here. Unfortunately, the UFO excuse is a sometimes effective way to get defense spending for a project or a district; the public is certainly dumb enough to buy it. Just last year the American media went AS over an IR camera defect supposedly proving the existence of alien spacecraft. Lost in the debate was the issue of the company contracted to provide expensive IR cameras for the navy and aiforce handing over defective equipment. How convenient.

  48. @Denis

    The decision came down from Moscow and not Kazan. What was wrong with the way things were? What precipitated the need to change things?
     
    Your questions can be answered with another question: Why should the Russian government promote yet another national identity within its borders, unless it is for some reason absolutely necessary? As we have seen with Ukraine, promoting distinct languages is practically equivalent to promoting distinct national identities.

    "One does not inhabit a country; one inhabits a language. That is our country, our fatherland -- and no other" - Emil Cioran

    You make a good point. If Russia wishes to become a unitary state, then indeed it need not encourage the development and usage of the Tartar language. But let me remind you that Russia, at least formally, defines itself as being a federative state where separate nationalities have constitutional rights enshrined to develop and protect minority language rights within its constituent republics, like the Republic of Tartastan. Ukraine, having even a more autonomous stature within the Soviet Union was a separate state and therefore never needed (at least theoretically) outside direction in setting its own internal state policies – certainly not after 1991 since it left the orbit of the Soviet Union. BTW, Ukraine has defined itself as a unitary state, not a federative one.

    • Replies: @Denis

    But let me remind you that Russia, at least formally, defines itself as being a federative state where separate nationalities have constitutional rights enshrined to develop and protect minority language rights within its constituent republics, like the Republic of Tartastan.
     
    Of course, but so what? This system is a legacy of Soviet times, and is partially reflective of the heavy over-representation that national minorities had in the early Soviet government, which feared Russian nationalism as much as anything else. If some policies of the federal system (such as promoting languages other than Russian) have become obstacles to the overall goal of achieving national unity and stability, then they should be circumvented. With that in mind, this is actually a rather mild change in policy, as they have not banned the teaching of the Tatar language, nor even restricted it; they have merely made it non-obligatory.

    Ukraine, having even a more autonomous stature within the Soviet Union was a separate state and therefore never needed (at least theoretically) outside direction in setting its own internal state policies – certainly not after 1991 since it left the orbit of the Soviet Union. BTW, Ukraine has defined itself as a unitary state, not a federative one.
     
    Ukraine is a perfect example of the long-term negative consequences of promoting regional languages and cultures. If the Soviet government had taken early steps to mandate that all Ukrainians had at least some years of education completely in Russian, it is highly doubtful that Ukrainian national sentiment would be nearly as widespread as today. It is good that Russia is making moves to ensure that it does not inadvertently create any more Ukraines.

    Thank you for your response! :)

  49. @AP
    Interesting trivia.

    One can guess the origins of certain Ukrainians by surnames. The surname -enko is found in Kiev oblast and points east, -uk is found from Galicia and Volyn to Vynnytsia and Zhytomir, except for Transcarpathia:

    https://pollotenchegg.livejournal.com/2019/03/06/

    https://i.imgur.com/cKhJrdN.png

    It seems to follow the post 1650 border - places that remained in Poland after 1650 have -uks, places that left have -enkos.

    Lviv is an island of -enkos in the West. I suspect this is because a lot of people from central Ukraine settled the city when the Soviets took over.

    Careful AP, you’re giving Russophiles yet another reason to split Ukraine up into seprate pieces. I hope that Beckow doesn’t read your comment! 🙂

  50. E says:
    @Anatoly Karlin
    Upcoming Ukraine posts (mostly as a reminder/guide to myself):

    * Kiev Snipergate
    * Was Putin Wrong to Annex Crimea?
    * Do Crimeans Support Joining Russia?
    * Has Crimea Benefited from Joining Russia?
    * Why Belorussia is Not the Ukraine

    Anatoly, regarding “Do Crimeans Support Joining Russia?”, I recommend addressing this perhaps:
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/05/06/russian-government-agency-reveals-fraudulent-nature-of-the-crimean-referendum-results/

    That was recently thrown at me by someone who gets his views from the Western MSM in a debate on the matter.

    I’m going to copy and paste part of an email I sent back. Feel free to reuse or repurpose if you like (attribution unnecessary):

    The Washington Post article quotes a blog entry posted by Yevgeny Bobrov, a member of the President of Russia’s Council on Civil Society and Human Rights, who was part of a small group that visited Crimea for three days in April 2014 and interviewed various people. The original post is still up, I found it here: http://president-sovet.ru/members/blogs/bobrov_e_a/problemy-zhiteley-kryma-/

    The English translation of the relevant section that the Washington Post gives is indeed accurate:

    “In the opinion of virtually all the experts and citizens interviewed:
    – The vast majority of the citizens of Sevastopol voted in favor of unification with Russia in the referendum (50-80%); in Crimea, various data show that 50-60% voted for unification with Russia, with a turnout of 30-50%.”

    This is quite different from the official Crimean referendum numbers. Some Western sources have used the lower range of these estimates to claim that only 15% of Crimeans actually voted to join Russia.

    My main problem is that all the “experts and citizens” are unnamed, so it’s impossible to check anything. I tried really hard to find more information about this expedition, and found this detailed account by another member, an oppositionist journalist who works for the Novaya Gazeta newspaper:
    http://hro.rightsinrussia.info/archive/ukraine/crimea/gannushkina (English translation)
    She mentions that they had 20 meetings in Crimea’s two biggest cities over the course of 3 days, mostly through her own connections.
    She goes into quite a lot of detail about the bureaucratic chaos that was going on back then, and her reporting seems accurate on that (it really was bad at first, although it improved within a few months). Nowhere in her lengthy article, which contains numerous quotes from people they interviewed and a lot of criticism of the Russian authorities, does she say anything about the referendum estimates that Bobrov mentions in his report, which I find strange.

    So, I have a few theories for what could have happened:
    1. Bobrov really did interview people who gave him those estimates, but those people were wrong (maybe because they suffered from confirmation bias due to extrapolating from their own social circles, which opposed the referendum)
    2. Bobrov simply made up that section of his report (would explain why his colleague didn’t mention something so significant), either because he himself was anti-referendum (like the other people in the expedition), or because he got paid by Ukraine (Ukraine has moles in the Russian bureaucracy just like Russia has in Ukraine’s, after all, and there was a heavy information war going on at the time – to this day, actually)
    3. Those really were the true numbers, and then within a few months (when Gallop did their first survey https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimean_status_referendum#Post-referendum_polls ), Crimean approval of the referendum’s results rose to over 80%, where it has stayed since (perhaps helped along by Ukraine punitively blocking their water* and electricity** supplies, and the Crimean GDP growing 55% since 2014).
    4. Those really were the true numbers, and Crimeans are consistently lying to the Western polling agencies because they’re terrified of making their true feelings known.

    I also found Bobrov’s name on Myrotvorets/Peacemaker, the Ukrainian state-sponsored assassination website, which is probably entirely irrelevant but still kind of bizarre. Why would you punish someone who gave your own side such good “PR material”?

    *See the last sentence here: https://www.stopfake.org/en/manipulation-ukraine-s-foreign-minister-advocates-depriving-crimea-of-water/amp/

    **https://jamestown.org/program/ukraine-stops-power-supply-to-russian-annexed-crimea/
    “In early December, no longer fearing retribution from Russian power suppliers, Kyiv restored the electricity flow to Crimea through only one of the four power lines that had been damaged in November.”

    • Replies: @Mitleser

    The one exception to this pattern, an estimate of 50%-60%, was produced by the Russian President’s Human Rights Council. However, on closer examination, it was not any sort of official figure, as presented by Forbes blogger Paul Roderick Gregory – a professional anti-Russian hack who later claimed 2,000 Russian soldiers died in Donbass on the basis of some lurid claims from a completely unknown Russian “business news” website – but the mere personal opinion of a single member of the Council, Yevgeny Bobrov, who based his assessment on conversations with a couple dozen unnamed “activists.”
     
    http://www.unz.com/akarlin/trump-right-on-crimea/
  51. @Mr. Hack
    File under: Big Brother Knows Best:

    The decision to make the language an elective subject and only undertaken with parental approval was made after a Moscow-driven push to abandon mandatory traditional language lessons. The move has sparked concern among Tatar advocates who believe the decision will ‘undermine Tatarstan’s cultural identity’, and discourage the ‘learning of the language of [an] indigenous ethnic group’, which is against the Republic’s constitution. Some have even argued that the decision will be the end of the language itself, which remains to be seen.

     

    https://theculturetrip.com/europe/russia/articles/will-the-tatar-language-become-extinct/

    The decision came down from Moscow and not Kazan. What was wrong with the way things were? What precipitated the need to change things?

    The decision came down from Moscow and not Kazan.

    Says who? Your deranged lying self?

    What was wrong with the way things were?

    Usually with these things the biggest campaigners against minority languages are other (non-titular) minority ethnicities.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor

    other (non-titular) minority ethnicities
     
    They have to learn Russian more or less as a foreign language, too. So they are forced to learn two languages (one of which is largely useless) before learning English.
    , @Mr. Hack

    The decision came down from Moscow and not Kazan.
     

    Says who? Your deranged lying self?
     
    Says every single article that I've read about the topic. Do you know otherwise, then prove it. Who's really lying and who's telling the truth, tovarishch?
  52. @Anonymous
    On 4chan somebody made the comparison between banning distribution of this video and banning the distribution of child porn, and I have to admit it gave me pause. Obviously it's easy to make the case against producing child porn, but what about circulating stuff that already exists, much of which I understand was made in Scandinavia in the 1970s, when it was legal to do so? Almost everybody will support laws against the possession of child porn on the basis that it discourages the production of such materials and also that watching child porn would increase a person's likelihood of molesting children in real life...so why not apply the same logic to the shooting video, and ban it on the basis that it encourages copycat behavior?

    Of course this is a slippery slope (Do we ban ISIS videos? Cartel executions? 9/11 footage?), but it's an interesting discussion. With the rise of social media, and everybody having a camera/video recorder with them at all times, I suspect there will be more laws against the distribution of videos of criminal/terrorist acts, even if done by third parties.

    I am a free speech absolutist on these issues. I want to get rid of the Miller Test beccause I am afried it will one day be used to ban “hate speech”.

  53. @Philip Owen
    Unless it is mandatory, Tatar will die. Language campaigners know this. Treason is afoot in Tatarstan.

    Will it, though? It’ll certainly decline, but if there’s enthusiasm for it to continue, it will. Dagestan has about 70 languages and only about six are compulsory, there are pockets of Greek speakers dotted around that still survive. Tatar isnt even that parochial as there’s at least some mutual intelligibility with turkish.

  54. @anonymous coward

    The decision came down from Moscow and not Kazan.
     
    Says who? Your deranged lying self?

    What was wrong with the way things were?
     
    Usually with these things the biggest campaigners against minority languages are other (non-titular) minority ethnicities.

    other (non-titular) minority ethnicities

    They have to learn Russian more or less as a foreign language, too. So they are forced to learn two languages (one of which is largely useless) before learning English.

  55. @E
    Anatoly, regarding "Do Crimeans Support Joining Russia?", I recommend addressing this perhaps:
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/05/06/russian-government-agency-reveals-fraudulent-nature-of-the-crimean-referendum-results/

    That was recently thrown at me by someone who gets his views from the Western MSM in a debate on the matter.

    I'm going to copy and paste part of an email I sent back. Feel free to reuse or repurpose if you like (attribution unnecessary):

    The Washington Post article quotes a blog entry posted by Yevgeny Bobrov, a member of the President of Russia’s Council on Civil Society and Human Rights, who was part of a small group that visited Crimea for three days in April 2014 and interviewed various people. The original post is still up, I found it here: http://president-sovet.ru/members/blogs/bobrov_e_a/problemy-zhiteley-kryma-/

    The English translation of the relevant section that the Washington Post gives is indeed accurate:

    "In the opinion of virtually all the experts and citizens interviewed:
    – The vast majority of the citizens of Sevastopol voted in favor of unification with Russia in the referendum (50-80%); in Crimea, various data show that 50-60% voted for unification with Russia, with a turnout of 30-50%."

    This is quite different from the official Crimean referendum numbers. Some Western sources have used the lower range of these estimates to claim that only 15% of Crimeans actually voted to join Russia.

    My main problem is that all the "experts and citizens" are unnamed, so it's impossible to check anything. I tried really hard to find more information about this expedition, and found this detailed account by another member, an oppositionist journalist who works for the Novaya Gazeta newspaper:
    http://hro.rightsinrussia.info/archive/ukraine/crimea/gannushkina (English translation)
    She mentions that they had 20 meetings in Crimea's two biggest cities over the course of 3 days, mostly through her own connections.
    She goes into quite a lot of detail about the bureaucratic chaos that was going on back then, and her reporting seems accurate on that (it really was bad at first, although it improved within a few months). Nowhere in her lengthy article, which contains numerous quotes from people they interviewed and a lot of criticism of the Russian authorities, does she say anything about the referendum estimates that Bobrov mentions in his report, which I find strange.

    So, I have a few theories for what could have happened:
    1. Bobrov really did interview people who gave him those estimates, but those people were wrong (maybe because they suffered from confirmation bias due to extrapolating from their own social circles, which opposed the referendum)
    2. Bobrov simply made up that section of his report (would explain why his colleague didn't mention something so significant), either because he himself was anti-referendum (like the other people in the expedition), or because he got paid by Ukraine (Ukraine has moles in the Russian bureaucracy just like Russia has in Ukraine's, after all, and there was a heavy information war going on at the time - to this day, actually)
    3. Those really were the true numbers, and then within a few months (when Gallop did their first survey https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimean_status_referendum#Post-referendum_polls ), Crimean approval of the referendum's results rose to over 80%, where it has stayed since (perhaps helped along by Ukraine punitively blocking their water* and electricity** supplies, and the Crimean GDP growing 55% since 2014).
    4. Those really were the true numbers, and Crimeans are consistently lying to the Western polling agencies because they're terrified of making their true feelings known.

    I also found Bobrov's name on Myrotvorets/Peacemaker, the Ukrainian state-sponsored assassination website, which is probably entirely irrelevant but still kind of bizarre. Why would you punish someone who gave your own side such good "PR material"?

    *See the last sentence here: https://www.stopfake.org/en/manipulation-ukraine-s-foreign-minister-advocates-depriving-crimea-of-water/amp/

    **https://jamestown.org/program/ukraine-stops-power-supply-to-russian-annexed-crimea/
    "In early December, no longer fearing retribution from Russian power suppliers, Kyiv restored the electricity flow to Crimea through only one of the four power lines that had been damaged in November."

    The one exception to this pattern, an estimate of 50%-60%, was produced by the Russian President’s Human Rights Council. However, on closer examination, it was not any sort of official figure, as presented by Forbes blogger Paul Roderick Gregory – a professional anti-Russian hack who later claimed 2,000 Russian soldiers died in Donbass on the basis of some lurid claims from a completely unknown Russian “business news” website – but the mere personal opinion of a single member of the Council, Yevgeny Bobrov, who based his assessment on conversations with a couple dozen unnamed “activists.”

    http://www.unz.com/akarlin/trump-right-on-crimea/

    • Replies: @E
    Interesting, thanks for the link. I forgot about that article.

    For me, the most interesting is the part Anatoly mentions at the end, the transcripts of the Ukrainian discussions on February 28, 2014.


    records of discussions held amongst the leaders of the Maidan themselves. Debating on whether or not to use military force to keep Crimea within Ukraine at the height of the crisis, Interior Minister Arsen Avakov and former SBU head Valentin Nalivaychenko both admitted that Russia’s actions enjoyed the overwhelming support of the Crimeans.
     
    http://www.rnbo.gov.ua/files/2016/stenogr.pdf
    This is potentially the most convincing evidence for somebody who gets all their news from the Western media. Primary material of what the leaders of Ukraine were saying at the time. Although, what's the proof that it's a real document? How was it published?

    Unfortunately, I couldn't find a fully transcribed version, much less a translation into English. I'm not great at reading Ukrainian myself. I did find that most (but not quite all) of the text in the PDF can be copied+pasted into Google Translate.

    Anyway, here are some of my own translations of relevant sections concerning the Ukraine elite's beliefs about public opinion in Crimea (I mostly translated the Ukrainian into Russian, then that into English, manually fixing any mistakes along the way):

    The 2nd paragraph of pg. 6 is where Valentin Nalivaychenko admits that the idea of joining Russia enjoys mass support in Crimea:


    The fourth point concerning the situation in the Crimea is the mass support of the population for the actions of the Russian Federation.
     
    2nd paragraph, pg. 8: Nalivaychenko:

    Our military and security forces are demoralized. many of them do not recognize the new government and are not ready to carry out orders, or have already betrayed their oath. The situation in the Navy of Ukraine is especially difficult. There are signed letters of resignation, including by the Commander of the Naval Forces of Ukraine. The moral and psychological climate of the leadership is extremely low, if not entirely treasonous.
     
    p.9 paragraphs 2&3, Avakov (Minister of Internal Affairs):

    Separately, I'll say that the majority of the population of Crimea takes a pro-Russian, anti-Ukrainian position. This is the risk we need to take into account. We are establishing communications with employees who have not betrayed us, but among the police these are very few.
     
    p.12, Tenyukh (Ukraine's Minister of Defense) replying to Turchinov (acting President of Ukraine), who is asking how many of Ukraine's 15,000 nominal forces in the region would be willing to fight:

    Difficult to answer. Most of the military are local contract soldiers. For them, service is money. You know the mood of the population in Crimea. There are also young people, conscripts who are unlikely to fight. Those who are ready to execute the order to use weapons will be 1.5-2 thousand maximum.
     
    p. 16, Nalivaychenko:

    Dear colleagues, I propose to invite to Kiev the leaders of Crimea's Prosecutor's Office, SBU and Police, because the vast majority of them are traitors. We need to know who is on our side now and who is not!
     
    p.16-17, Vitaliy Yarema (General Prosecutor of Ukraine):

    During the preparation of these preliminary steps, we discovered the dominant opinion of the civilian population. Since the premises of state institutions begin to be seized, they say, "If it's fine to do it in Kiev, why we can't we capture them in Crimea?". Therefore, today I would like to address the Secretary of the National Security and Defence Council Andriy Parubiy to vacate today the premises seized by the Samooborona [Self-defence forces of Maidan], as much as possible, in order to show that we have law and order...
     
    (this suggestion was not discussed any further in the meeting, and no resolution was taken to implement it)

    The only sort-of dissenting voice at the meeting was Acting President Turchinov (he also seems to admit that the Crimean public and elites are against Ukraine, but believes that their opinion is not very deeply-held and can be changed. He also, unlike the others, does not accept that the opinions of the Crimean "street" played a crucial role in the Maidan government's quick loss of power in Crimea in the days preceding the referendum, believing that it was 100% due to the Russian troops. Turchinov's view became the mainstream one among Western analysts), p.23-24:


    The emphasis on the mass media is correct.
    It's very important that we appeal to the residents of the Crimean peninsula. They must understand that the Ukrainian government is not their enemy, that we are ready to solve their local problems. We need to dispel this myth that the Crimeans raised a rebellion against Ukraine. These are not Crimeans. It's solely a military operation against a sovereign country. That's why we need to inform them that these are not activists of any party or public structures, but the Russian military who are not even hiding their identity any more. It is very important to recite and to propagate this objective view of these events to Ukraine and all the world.
    Andrei Vilenovich [Senchenko, head of Batkivshchyna party in Crimea], let's have a few words concerning working with the Crimean elites. How can we drag the Crimean elite onto the side of Ukraine, and not the separatists?
     
    I think this is the first time that any of this text has been translated into English... if anybody wants to use it, be my guest.
  56. @Dmitry
    Songbird I logged here today to ask you if you saw this newly, strange article?

    U.S. IN UFO RACE WITH CHINA, RUSSIA, FORMER SENATE MAJORITY LEADER SUGGESTS

    Former Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid dropped major hints that he knows potential adversaries, Russia and China, have carried out their own military studies to figure out how UFOs work and how to build their own,” Knapp said during the broadcast, citing anonymous Pentagon sources to claim dozens of UFOs have been encountered off the coast of Florida and Virginia in the last three years.

     

    https://www.newsweek.com/ufo-2019-harry-reid-china-russia-senate-unexplained-aerial-phenomena-1349256

    We were discussing Bigelow Aerospace a few weeks ago, and decided Robert Bigelow seems quite insane (which is the impression from seeing videos of him).

    But what is reliability of Harry Reid? Harry Reid is also friends with Robert Bigelow, and partly responsible for government funding of Bigelow Aerospace, so there could be some corruption there.

    In this story, Harry Reid "dropped major hints that he knows potential adversaries, Russia and China, have carried out their own military studies to figure out how UFOs work and how to build their own."

    Nothing in Russian media is reporting this.

    In Russian media, position "UFOs are a hoax" and result of mental illness, seems like common consensus in the articles in mainstream media for the last few years. It's strange to see American media going more in the "crazy direction" with this topic.

    UFOs were a cover story for experimental aircraft, the Soviets always hinted they knew this anyway.

    Still I met a Soviet cosmonaut who said he saw all sorts of weird and wonderful stuff when he went into space, the Soviet authorities told him to keep his mouth shut when he got back. Still I would expect there to be unusual phenomenon in space, not necessarily indicative of intelligent life.

    • Agree: reiner Tor
    • Replies: @Dmitry

    UFOs were a cover story for experimental aircraft,
     
    If you think about "B-2 Spirit" and "F-117".

    Both these planes are tested in Nevada, from the early 1980s.

    At the same time, it is a national priority for them to be secret to Soviet Union and spies (especially the B-2 was going to be key to American strategic bombing strategy against the USSR).

    To inject UFO stories (and a mentally ill "UFO community" in the area) is a very useful cover to confuse Soviet intelligence in America, so we can assume the government might even invest a lot of funds in this.

    It's advantage to confuse the opponent, to have "UFO stories" in this area of America. It creates more deniability for testing experimental airplanes.

    It can also frighten the opponent in the Cold War, to imagine that there may be experimental planes with the capacities reported by "UFO" sightings.


    Still I met a Soviet cosmonaut who said he saw all sorts of weird and wonderful stuff when he went into space, the Soviet authorities told him to keep his mouth shut when he got back.

     

    I believe that in back in USSR, "UFOs" were a publicly very suppressed topic.

    In the 1990s, suddenly a lot of former military officials and pilots, reported about how they had seen UFOs or that these objects had been investigated with a large budget (such as at НИИ-22).

    So it was privately, viewed as a serious topic in the USSR, with Brezhnev. But was not introduced in public discussion.

    Only in 1990s, after they leave their jobs and change of government, then military officials start saying to the public about seeing objects in the sky they could not identity.

    This is the difference to America, where the unidentified flying objects was a part of the public discussion (and the government used this public discussion for its personal advantage).


    Still I would expect there to be unusual phenomenon in space, not necessarily indicative of intelligent life.

     

    I read about a few stories. But it seems objects more commonly reported by pilots, but not by astronauts. And often it seems (from little I know about the topic), relating to objects on viewed by radar and by pilots at a relatively low altitude.
  57. @The Big Red Scary
    I was neither criticizing nor supporting the change, just pointing out that there is an obvious difference between banning the teaching of X and making the study of X non-compulsory.

    The reason that compulsory courses in Tatar were unpopular is because something like half the residents of Tatarstan are native speakers of Russian. You can argue that these Russians are being petty, but learning a language is a major investment of time, and for anyone who is not a Tatar, this has a huge opportunity cost. Wouldn't you rather have your kids learning English, French, German, Chinese, Japanese, or any other from a long list of languages? Presumably if Ukrainians living in the Hungarian-speaking part of Ukraine had to take mandatory courses in Hungarian, they'd be annoyed too.

    Admittedly, the end result may very well be the death of the Tatar language, but ultimately that's the responsibility of the Tatars themselves.

    So now that I think of it, yes, it seems like a reasonable policy.

    like half the residents of Tatarstan are native speakers of Russian.

    Half of the population of Tatarstan is ethnically non-Tatars. But Russian is the “native” language for almost the entire population of Tatarstan-so it is the language of communication of the majority of Tatars

    Actress Chulpan Khamatova (ethnically 100% Tatar from Kazan) in a recent interview described as a curiosity the Tatars from the village, who really know the Tatar language. Khamatova herself does not know Tatar. She remembers the teacher of the Tatar language at school as Hitler’s likeness.

  58. @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan
    Russian sailors have done some very good things for us.

    I hold basically to the 19th century GOP platform, which means I'm a horrible racist in today's media eyes. Anyway, I believe the Union cause was generally correct. And people who think that "Union cause" = "gay liberalism" are ignorant; the average Northern soldier hated slavery because he wanted America free for white people. And I'm happy to say that the Russian Navy played a brief, forgotten, but rather vital role in helping the Union win. The British and the French were close to intervening. More importantly, the British were about to send the Confederates some ironclads that could have been used to decisively break the Union blockade.

    Well, the Russians, as part of their own conflict with the British and French, sent much of their navy to San Francisco and New York - partly as an official state visit, but mostly as a strategic ploy during a war scare between those 3 European powers.

    The Russians could never have beaten the British in open naval combat, but the Russian plan was to use their ships as commerce raiders, based apparently out of America, in the event of war. Now THAT scared the British, who knew full well how devastating commerce raiding could be. The Russian presence in America served Russian interests just as it served the Union Navy's interests, and, ultimately, the British plan for introducing strong ironclads into the war was broken.

    So: thanks, Russia! Glad our interests could intersect.

    But even in Civil War historiography, we cannot escape absurd Russophobia. I heard a historian (he's otherwise pretty good) recently mention the presence of Russian ships in NY and SF then, and argue that it was indicative that the Russians too - like the British and French - were interested in intervening on behalf of the Confederates. This is a ridiculous statement, which any 5 minute study of 19th century Russian strategy would reveal, but this is the ignorance among even smart people.

    The greatest strategic mistake in British history was not intervening on behalf of the Confederacy, welcoming the Southern states back in to the family would have made the Empire unstoppable. Ultimately Russian ships or not there wasn’t the popular support to intervene, and investments in Northern states as well as corn imports were too economically important.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    Genuinely interesting question whether the North could have won with the Brits backing the Confederates.

    It would have equalized naval and munitioning power, though the South would still be at a 2.5:1 manpower disadvantage. (Not like Britain was going to send masses of troops across the Atlantic).

    How long would British public opinion have tolerated being on the side of a slaving Power? Or would Northern morale to prosecute the war have fallen first?
    , @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan

    The greatest strategic mistake in British history was not intervening on behalf of the Confederacy, welcoming the Southern states back in to the family would have made the Empire unstoppable

     

    To my mind, this statement would need lots more qualification and support before I could ever agree to it. I've long thought that the entire history of the British alliance with France leading up to World War 1 was their greatest strategic mistake. I can't bring myself to believe that the British really *needed* preventive war with Germany. And, yes, I like Pat Buchanan.

    Ultimately Russian ships or not there wasn’t the popular support to intervene, and investments in Northern states as well as corn imports were too economically important.

     

    Here is a respectable read on the subject:

    https://americancivilwar.com/tcwn/confederate_navy/confederate_navy_buildup.html

    No mention of the Russians there

    As for popular support, really, it all depends on what the general war situation was on the ground. If the Confederates, for example, had managed to make something more serious out of the 1862 Maryland campaign, I'm sure the powerful in England could have found some excuse to get involved. (Like the American media and many historians today, contemporary European observers seemed obsessed with the Virginia/Eastern campaign, even though the Union armies were dominant in the rest of the South almost from the war's beginning). As for the French, they would have then done what they did with Mexican affairs, which was clumsily follow whatever the British did.

    In contrast to the above article, Webster Tarpley here argues that the US-Russian "alliance" (I think this is a too strong word) saved the Union: https://www.voltairenet.org/article169488.html

  59. @LondonBob
    The greatest strategic mistake in British history was not intervening on behalf of the Confederacy, welcoming the Southern states back in to the family would have made the Empire unstoppable. Ultimately Russian ships or not there wasn't the popular support to intervene, and investments in Northern states as well as corn imports were too economically important.

    Genuinely interesting question whether the North could have won with the Brits backing the Confederates.

    It would have equalized naval and munitioning power, though the South would still be at a 2.5:1 manpower disadvantage. (Not like Britain was going to send masses of troops across the Atlantic).

    How long would British public opinion have tolerated being on the side of a slaving Power? Or would Northern morale to prosecute the war have fallen first?

    • Replies: @Mitleser
    The mere existence of a second front would tie up a lot of manpower of the North.
    On the other hand, the North would be at a serious naval naval and munitioning power disadvantage.
    , @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan

    It would have equalized naval and munitioning power, though the South would still be at a 2.5:1 manpower disadvantage. (Not like Britain was going to send masses of troops across the Atlantic).

     

    Like I said, it depends on the general war situation. Gettysburg and Vicksburg did pretty much end any chance of British intervention.

    Before that the diciest moment for the Union was in late 1862; although the Western (Trans-Appalachian) theater was going quite fine, there was a massive moral impact at Lee's successes that August, and he went on the offensive into Maryland. I'm not much for alternative history, just not the mind for it, but I have a hard time seeing how the Antietam campaign goes any better for Lee, if one assumes that the Union manages to become aware of his whereabouts (Order 191)

    In any case, there were something like 7 or 800,000 soldiers killed in our civil war, so anything Russia did to prevent it going on any longer is appreciated. No one needed to hear When This Cruel War Is Over any longer than 4 years. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBuUu_fwzuQ

    Or would Northern morale to prosecute the war have fallen first?

     

    Probably, especially if the Maryland campaign had been something other than a strategic Union victory.
    , @LondonBob
    I am not aware what, if any, military plans had been drawn up but as you say the biggest effect would have been the RN and it would likely have been a largely naval intervention. Like Germany in WWI the Confederacy was really strangled to death and ending the naval blockade, as well as supplies of arms and ammunition would have perhaps been sufficient on their own. Otherwise I would have massively reinforced the garrison in Canada whilst refusing to intervene or invade with British troops. This would have forced the North to divert large number of troops away from the South. This analysis ignores what the French might have done.

    Good reason foreign intervention was always seen as the number one threat by Lincoln and his government . Before the summer of 63 this threat had dissipated with Vicksburg and Gettysburg but I think even as late as the start of 64 intervention could have been successful. Rebellions are almost always successful when they have a foreign sponsor. Psychologically the chances of victory shift dramatically to the rebelling side.
  60. @LondonBob
    The greatest strategic mistake in British history was not intervening on behalf of the Confederacy, welcoming the Southern states back in to the family would have made the Empire unstoppable. Ultimately Russian ships or not there wasn't the popular support to intervene, and investments in Northern states as well as corn imports were too economically important.

    The greatest strategic mistake in British history was not intervening on behalf of the Confederacy, welcoming the Southern states back in to the family would have made the Empire unstoppable

    To my mind, this statement would need lots more qualification and support before I could ever agree to it. I’ve long thought that the entire history of the British alliance with France leading up to World War 1 was their greatest strategic mistake. I can’t bring myself to believe that the British really *needed* preventive war with Germany. And, yes, I like Pat Buchanan.

    Ultimately Russian ships or not there wasn’t the popular support to intervene, and investments in Northern states as well as corn imports were too economically important.

    Here is a respectable read on the subject:

    https://americancivilwar.com/tcwn/confederate_navy/confederate_navy_buildup.html

    No mention of the Russians there

    As for popular support, really, it all depends on what the general war situation was on the ground. If the Confederates, for example, had managed to make something more serious out of the 1862 Maryland campaign, I’m sure the powerful in England could have found some excuse to get involved. (Like the American media and many historians today, contemporary European observers seemed obsessed with the Virginia/Eastern campaign, even though the Union armies were dominant in the rest of the South almost from the war’s beginning). As for the French, they would have then done what they did with Mexican affairs, which was clumsily follow whatever the British did.

    In contrast to the above article, Webster Tarpley here argues that the US-Russian “alliance” (I think this is a too strong word) saved the Union: https://www.voltairenet.org/article169488.html

    • Replies: @Mitleser

    I’ve long thought that the entire history of the British alliance with France leading up to World War 1 was their greatest strategic mistake.
     
    It was not an alliance until the war.
    The point of the Entente was to make their global Empire less costly by resolving conflicts with France, the other real global power.

    Just as the Austro-Hungarian Empire was distracted by having to grapple with a number of enemies within Europe, so British statesmen had to engage in a diplomatic and strategical juggling act that was literally worldwide in its dimensions. In the critical year of 1895, for example, the Cabinet found itself worrying about the possible collapse of the Ottoman Empire as a result of the Armenian crisis, about the looming clash with Germany over southern Africa at almost exactly the same time as the quarrel with the United States over the Venezuela-British Guiana borders, about French military expeditions in equatorial Africa, and about a Russian drive toward the Hindu Kush...
     
    - The Rise and Fall of the Great Powers, p. 227
    , @DFH
    Ending the alliance with Japan in 1921 (in exchange for basically nothing from America) was the greatest mistake
  61. @Hyperborean
    I don't know if you saw it in the other open thread but I found an English-language lecture by Dmowski:


    I looked around and I found a lecture Poland, Old and New given by Dmowski in English in the anthology of lectures (Russian Realities and Problems) given in 1916 at Trinity College.

    https://ia801408.us.archive.org/30/items/cu31924028376014
     
    http://www.unz.com/akarlin/open-thread-70/#comment-3094084

    Thanks!

  62. @Anatoly Karlin
    Genuinely interesting question whether the North could have won with the Brits backing the Confederates.

    It would have equalized naval and munitioning power, though the South would still be at a 2.5:1 manpower disadvantage. (Not like Britain was going to send masses of troops across the Atlantic).

    How long would British public opinion have tolerated being on the side of a slaving Power? Or would Northern morale to prosecute the war have fallen first?

    The mere existence of a second front would tie up a lot of manpower of the North.
    On the other hand, the North would be at a serious naval naval and munitioning power disadvantage.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    The United States c.1860 had a respectable 7.2% share of global manufacturing output - about equivalent to that of France - the great bulk of which it ofc retained in the Union.

    Britain's share was 20%. However, it would hardly have devoted an all out effort in favor of the Confederacy, so it wouldn't mobilize to anywhere near the same extent as the Union. Munitioning potential would merely equalize. Which ofc would still be very bad for the Union, given the superior quality of the Confederacy's soldiers and generals.

    The Confederacy would get a massive boost from having its trade routes remain open, since it was far more dependent on international trade than the Union. So it could continue to import weapons and food. The Union would not be as hampered by a British blockade as the Confederacy was by the Union blockade, because it was both agriculturally and industrially basically self-sufficient. Having considerable naval capabilities of its own, the British blockade would also be relatively more porous.

    If the Union continued the war regardless, I think it would have won eventually anyway. This still doesn't solve the problem of the vast demographic disparity between the two sides: 2.5:1 in terms of total population, but 4:1 on the more relevant metric of free citizens. The Confederacy had too few people (~1 million free men of fighting age in 1861). Eventually, ~40% of them would die; a ratio comparable to the USSR's military losses in WW2. Unclear how it could have kept going on for much longer after 1865, even if far better equipped.
  63. @Anatoly Karlin
    Genuinely interesting question whether the North could have won with the Brits backing the Confederates.

    It would have equalized naval and munitioning power, though the South would still be at a 2.5:1 manpower disadvantage. (Not like Britain was going to send masses of troops across the Atlantic).

    How long would British public opinion have tolerated being on the side of a slaving Power? Or would Northern morale to prosecute the war have fallen first?

    It would have equalized naval and munitioning power, though the South would still be at a 2.5:1 manpower disadvantage. (Not like Britain was going to send masses of troops across the Atlantic).

    Like I said, it depends on the general war situation. Gettysburg and Vicksburg did pretty much end any chance of British intervention.

    Before that the diciest moment for the Union was in late 1862; although the Western (Trans-Appalachian) theater was going quite fine, there was a massive moral impact at Lee’s successes that August, and he went on the offensive into Maryland. I’m not much for alternative history, just not the mind for it, but I have a hard time seeing how the Antietam campaign goes any better for Lee, if one assumes that the Union manages to become aware of his whereabouts (Order 191)

    In any case, there were something like 7 or 800,000 soldiers killed in our civil war, so anything Russia did to prevent it going on any longer is appreciated. No one needed to hear When This Cruel War Is Over any longer than 4 years.

    Or would Northern morale to prosecute the war have fallen first?

    Probably, especially if the Maryland campaign had been something other than a strategic Union victory.

  64. @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan

    The greatest strategic mistake in British history was not intervening on behalf of the Confederacy, welcoming the Southern states back in to the family would have made the Empire unstoppable

     

    To my mind, this statement would need lots more qualification and support before I could ever agree to it. I've long thought that the entire history of the British alliance with France leading up to World War 1 was their greatest strategic mistake. I can't bring myself to believe that the British really *needed* preventive war with Germany. And, yes, I like Pat Buchanan.

    Ultimately Russian ships or not there wasn’t the popular support to intervene, and investments in Northern states as well as corn imports were too economically important.

     

    Here is a respectable read on the subject:

    https://americancivilwar.com/tcwn/confederate_navy/confederate_navy_buildup.html

    No mention of the Russians there

    As for popular support, really, it all depends on what the general war situation was on the ground. If the Confederates, for example, had managed to make something more serious out of the 1862 Maryland campaign, I'm sure the powerful in England could have found some excuse to get involved. (Like the American media and many historians today, contemporary European observers seemed obsessed with the Virginia/Eastern campaign, even though the Union armies were dominant in the rest of the South almost from the war's beginning). As for the French, they would have then done what they did with Mexican affairs, which was clumsily follow whatever the British did.

    In contrast to the above article, Webster Tarpley here argues that the US-Russian "alliance" (I think this is a too strong word) saved the Union: https://www.voltairenet.org/article169488.html

    I’ve long thought that the entire history of the British alliance with France leading up to World War 1 was their greatest strategic mistake.

    It was not an alliance until the war.
    The point of the Entente was to make their global Empire less costly by resolving conflicts with France, the other real global power.

    Just as the Austro-Hungarian Empire was distracted by having to grapple with a number of enemies within Europe, so British statesmen had to engage in a diplomatic and strategical juggling act that was literally worldwide in its dimensions. In the critical year of 1895, for example, the Cabinet found itself worrying about the possible collapse of the Ottoman Empire as a result of the Armenian crisis, about the looming clash with Germany over southern Africa at almost exactly the same time as the quarrel with the United States over the Venezuela-British Guiana borders, about French military expeditions in equatorial Africa, and about a Russian drive toward the Hindu Kush…

    The Rise and Fall of the Great Powers, p. 227

    • Replies: @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan

    It was not an alliance until the war.

     

    Yes, this is technically correct.

    Regardless, when the effect of Franco-British policy was to entangle Britain in the worst conflict yet seen, I feel okay about calling it an alliance in effect.
  65. @Beckow

    Ukraine for having an unreasonable language policy
     
    Unreasonable means badly thought out and likely to cause more harm than good. It is easy to see that Kiev's post-Maidan language policies have indeed been unreasonable : they have backfired.

    Tatarstan is a different local issue, but in any case even if there would be similarities the test is whether Kiev's language policy has made Ukraine better and stronger. I has not, it has made it weaker. To engage in self-defeating policies in many areas and claim that 'others have also been doing it' is insane. Yes, France had a tough unifying language policy, but they didn't introduce it in the middle of a civil war. There is a good time for everything, as it is, it looks to outside observers that Kiev is just twisting around in agony.

    Tatarstan is a different local issue, but in any case even if there would be similarities the test is whether Kiev’s language policy has made Ukraine better and stronger. I has not, it has made it weaker.

    Only if you consider the effect on the Donbas territories, which de facto are no longer in Ukraine. OTOH the policies have consolidated the rest of the country.

    • Replies: @Beckow

    ...the policies have consolidated the rest of the country.

     

    Poroshenko has 15% approval. I believe that is less than Yanukovitch at the end. And the comedian is getting 30% - in effect, the vote for the comedian is for 'none of the above', against the system. Quite a consolidation.
    , @Denis

    Only if you consider the effect on the Donbas territories, which de facto are no longer in Ukraine.
     
    You should tell that to the Ukrainian government lol. I wish they had your realism, as it stands they don't even have the sense to recognize that Crimea is part of Russia.
  66. @Mitleser
    The mere existence of a second front would tie up a lot of manpower of the North.
    On the other hand, the North would be at a serious naval naval and munitioning power disadvantage.

    The United States c.1860 had a respectable 7.2% share of global manufacturing output – about equivalent to that of France – the great bulk of which it ofc retained in the Union.

    Britain’s share was 20%. However, it would hardly have devoted an all out effort in favor of the Confederacy, so it wouldn’t mobilize to anywhere near the same extent as the Union. Munitioning potential would merely equalize. Which ofc would still be very bad for the Union, given the superior quality of the Confederacy’s soldiers and generals.

    The Confederacy would get a massive boost from having its trade routes remain open, since it was far more dependent on international trade than the Union. So it could continue to import weapons and food. The Union would not be as hampered by a British blockade as the Confederacy was by the Union blockade, because it was both agriculturally and industrially basically self-sufficient. Having considerable naval capabilities of its own, the British blockade would also be relatively more porous.

    If the Union continued the war regardless, I think it would have won eventually anyway. This still doesn’t solve the problem of the vast demographic disparity between the two sides: 2.5:1 in terms of total population, but 4:1 on the more relevant metric of free citizens. The Confederacy had too few people (~1 million free men of fighting age in 1861). Eventually, ~40% of them would die; a ratio comparable to the USSR’s military losses in WW2. Unclear how it could have kept going on for much longer after 1865, even if far better equipped.

    • Replies: @AP

    The Confederacy had too few people (~1 million free men of fighting age in 1861). Eventually, ~40% of them would die; a ratio comparable to the USSR’s military losses in WW2.
     
    Interesting. This explains the intensity in terms of honoring the sacrifices of their ancestors by American Southerners.
    , @Beckow

    The Confederacy had too few people ~1 million free men of fighting age in 1861. Eventually ~40% of them would die
     
    That is an eye-opening number that I didn't know. I don't think outsiders can appreciate US history without understanding it. Something about civil wars is very deadly. In retrospect, it is never worth it, but I respect the sacrifices.
    , @for-the-record
    The Confederacy had too few people (~1 million free men of fighting age in 1861). Eventually, ~40% of them would die

    The most comprehensive review of Civil War casualties I have seen is "A Census-Based Count of the Civil War Dead" (J. David Hacker, Civil War History, Volume 57, Number 4, December 2011, pp. 307-348). His conclusion (p. 316) was that:

    Approximately 18 percent of southern white men of military age lost their lives in the conflict, compared to just 6 percent of northern men.
     
    https://muse.jhu.edu/article/465917
    , @LondonBob
    An RN blockade of the North would have been even more effective than the North's blockade of the South. Smashing the Union navy, “The work of a few hours”, sniffed Palmerston. In 1861 the British had 63 ships-of-the-line (60 guns and above) to the American 0. The total count of all commissioned warships was 598 to 42. Bye-bye Anaconda plan! Pretty soon it would be the British doing an “Anaconda plan” on Union ports. The North had no ocean going ironclads unlike the RN which had several. Britain would also have acted in conjunction with France, which was more pro-South than Britain. In any scenario with British involvement, you’re also talking French involvement on the same side. This makes an already huge impact bigger: add 35 ships-of-the-line and 231 smaller ships to the totals above.

    Also blockade runners in the South could run to Bermuda etc., whereas the North would have no nearby friendly ports. Blockade runners also relied on smokeless coal from Wales.

    There are also specific issues the North would face with a blockade, gunpowder could not be produced and the North relied on iron imported from Britain.

    http://67thtigers.blogspot.com/2010/06/royal-navy-force-designated-for-america.html

    Having read up on this I under estimated how weak the North was.
  67. @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan

    The greatest strategic mistake in British history was not intervening on behalf of the Confederacy, welcoming the Southern states back in to the family would have made the Empire unstoppable

     

    To my mind, this statement would need lots more qualification and support before I could ever agree to it. I've long thought that the entire history of the British alliance with France leading up to World War 1 was their greatest strategic mistake. I can't bring myself to believe that the British really *needed* preventive war with Germany. And, yes, I like Pat Buchanan.

    Ultimately Russian ships or not there wasn’t the popular support to intervene, and investments in Northern states as well as corn imports were too economically important.

     

    Here is a respectable read on the subject:

    https://americancivilwar.com/tcwn/confederate_navy/confederate_navy_buildup.html

    No mention of the Russians there

    As for popular support, really, it all depends on what the general war situation was on the ground. If the Confederates, for example, had managed to make something more serious out of the 1862 Maryland campaign, I'm sure the powerful in England could have found some excuse to get involved. (Like the American media and many historians today, contemporary European observers seemed obsessed with the Virginia/Eastern campaign, even though the Union armies were dominant in the rest of the South almost from the war's beginning). As for the French, they would have then done what they did with Mexican affairs, which was clumsily follow whatever the British did.

    In contrast to the above article, Webster Tarpley here argues that the US-Russian "alliance" (I think this is a too strong word) saved the Union: https://www.voltairenet.org/article169488.html

    Ending the alliance with Japan in 1921 (in exchange for basically nothing from America) was the greatest mistake

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    Didn't Britain get the Washington Naval Treaty as a result?
  68. @utu
    Roman Dmowski on The Ukraine Question
    https://theimaginativeconservative.org/2014/07/ukraine-question-1930-part.html

    Rather insightful, though not as reflective of reality as it might seem. OTOH, Dmowski and his followers massively bungled things both internally and externally for interwar Poland so his insight did not translate into good policy.

  69. @Anatoly Karlin
    The United States c.1860 had a respectable 7.2% share of global manufacturing output - about equivalent to that of France - the great bulk of which it ofc retained in the Union.

    Britain's share was 20%. However, it would hardly have devoted an all out effort in favor of the Confederacy, so it wouldn't mobilize to anywhere near the same extent as the Union. Munitioning potential would merely equalize. Which ofc would still be very bad for the Union, given the superior quality of the Confederacy's soldiers and generals.

    The Confederacy would get a massive boost from having its trade routes remain open, since it was far more dependent on international trade than the Union. So it could continue to import weapons and food. The Union would not be as hampered by a British blockade as the Confederacy was by the Union blockade, because it was both agriculturally and industrially basically self-sufficient. Having considerable naval capabilities of its own, the British blockade would also be relatively more porous.

    If the Union continued the war regardless, I think it would have won eventually anyway. This still doesn't solve the problem of the vast demographic disparity between the two sides: 2.5:1 in terms of total population, but 4:1 on the more relevant metric of free citizens. The Confederacy had too few people (~1 million free men of fighting age in 1861). Eventually, ~40% of them would die; a ratio comparable to the USSR's military losses in WW2. Unclear how it could have kept going on for much longer after 1865, even if far better equipped.

    The Confederacy had too few people (~1 million free men of fighting age in 1861). Eventually, ~40% of them would die; a ratio comparable to the USSR’s military losses in WW2.

    Interesting. This explains the intensity in terms of honoring the sacrifices of their ancestors by American Southerners.

    • Replies: @notanon
    yes, i didn't realize the percentage was so high - explains a lot
  70. Anon[422] • Disclaimer says:
    @Mr. Hack
    It's your blog and you can do whatever you like AK, however, I don't understand why you keep plugging IR's blog? He's totally unlike you in that he doesn't appreciate any commentary that he might find inconveniently contradictory to the BS (not that you often post BS) that he's trying to push. He had the gaul to ban me from his blog because of the awful sin of whataboutism. He posted a thread that tried to besmearch Ukraine for having an unreasonable language policy and compared it to that of fascist Italy (apparently he doesn't share your views about Mussolini), whereas I tried to point out that Ukraine’s language policies are very similar to those in Russia (pointing out the recent curtailment of the Tatar language there). For my money, you'd even be doing your readers a favor by pushing Mike Averko's blog, a guy with whom I seldom agree, who often posts interesting comments here, but is definitely a more balanced blogger and somebody who doesn't exhibit these strange and out of date sovok tendencies. Seriously! :-)

    He’s totally unlike you in that he doesn’t appreciate any commentary that he might find inconveniently contradictory to the BS (not that you often post BS) that he’s trying to push. He had the gaul to ban me from his blog because of the awful sin of whataboutism.

    You are absolutely right Mr. Hack, I ban whataboutism on my blog. And I also ban personal attacks on yours truly, and other participants in the discussions.

    Ukraine is a country which represses other languages and does not allow minorities the choice to receive education and services in their native language. Just look at the language law currently debated in the Rada.

    You posted some American propaganda about Tatar classes in Tatarstan. The issue had to do with people being offered the choice not to do the Tatar language. This is fundamentally different from the Ukrainian situation. Crimean Tatars in Crimea have recently received textbooks in their native language, while Tatar classes may have closed in Tatarstan because locals don’t want to learn Tatar.

    I did not want to have this discussion with you because we would spend dozens of comments trying to prove each other wrong. And since you broke the rules of my blog twice, your ass was blocked.

    Sincerely, Insomniac Resurrected

    • LOL: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack

    I did not want to have this discussion with you because we would spend dozens of comments trying to prove each other wrong. And since you broke the rules of my blog twice, your ass was blocked.
     
    Sounds about right, except your name should be updated to Stalin Resurrected, where everything you disagree with (an 'inconvenient truth') is labelled 'American propaganda' and then banned from public debate.

    while Tatar classes may have closed in Tatarstan because locals don’t want to learn Tatar.
     
    Another example of your lies, BS and deceit. Good luck Tovarish in building your Ruskij Mir, but you can count me out! :-(
  71. @Anon

    He’s totally unlike you in that he doesn’t appreciate any commentary that he might find inconveniently contradictory to the BS (not that you often post BS) that he’s trying to push. He had the gaul to ban me from his blog because of the awful sin of whataboutism.
     
    You are absolutely right Mr. Hack, I ban whataboutism on my blog. And I also ban personal attacks on yours truly, and other participants in the discussions.

    Ukraine is a country which represses other languages and does not allow minorities the choice to receive education and services in their native language. Just look at the language law currently debated in the Rada.

    You posted some American propaganda about Tatar classes in Tatarstan. The issue had to do with people being offered the choice not to do the Tatar language. This is fundamentally different from the Ukrainian situation. Crimean Tatars in Crimea have recently received textbooks in their native language, while Tatar classes may have closed in Tatarstan because locals don't want to learn Tatar.

    I did not want to have this discussion with you because we would spend dozens of comments trying to prove each other wrong. And since you broke the rules of my blog twice, your ass was blocked.

    Sincerely, Insomniac Resurrected

    I did not want to have this discussion with you because we would spend dozens of comments trying to prove each other wrong. And since you broke the rules of my blog twice, your ass was blocked.

    Sounds about right, except your name should be updated to Stalin Resurrected, where everything you disagree with (an ‘inconvenient truth’) is labelled ‘American propaganda’ and then banned from public debate.

    while Tatar classes may have closed in Tatarstan because locals don’t want to learn Tatar.

    Another example of your lies, BS and deceit. Good luck Tovarish in building your Ruskij Mir, but you can count me out! 🙁

    • Replies: @Anon

    Sounds about right, except your name should be updated to Stalin Resurrected, where everything you disagree with (an ‘inconvenient truth’) is labelled ‘American propaganda’ and then banned from public debate.
     
    I don't owe you a platform.

    You have, only in the course of this discussion, called me a Sovok and a Stalinist. Neither of which is in any way correct. That's a kind of behaviour you displayed on my blog.

    You have been warned once. You have been given rules of my blog to read. I have given you a chance, and you blew it.
  72. Anon[422] • Disclaimer says:
    @AP
    Poll about attitude towards the Russian language in Ukraine:

    http://www.kiis.com.ua/?lang=eng&cat=reports&id=832&page=1

    29% think Russian and Ukrainian should be equally taught in schools (most popular choice in South and East)

    26% think Russian should be taught more than foreign languages but less than Ukrainian (most popular choice in the Center)

    25% think Russian should be treated like English or German (most popular choice in the West)

    8% think it shouldn't be taught at all (almost all of these people are in western Ukraine - it gets 22% support there)

    :::::::

    Poll was last done in 1998. Since then, in territories currently under Kiev's control (that is, not including Crimea and Donbas), support in equal Russian/Ukrainian language instruction has dropped from 40% to 27%. Most Ukrainians want the state language.

    ::::::::

    There is also a question about the Donbas war - would you support autonomy for Donbas if it ends the war.

    Strong support 28%
    Weak support 23%
    Weak opposition: 9%
    Strong opposition: 15%

    Hard to say: 23%

    The only region that opposed more than supported it was the West. The Center had more support than opposition (though support was under 50%). Strong support in the South and East.

    Expelling Donbas wasn't an option in this poll, nor were details of the nature of the autonomy spelled out.

    There is also a question about the Donbas war – would you support autonomy for Donbas if it ends the war.

    Strong support 28%
    Weak support 23%
    Weak opposition: 9%
    Strong opposition: 15%

    Hard to say: 23%

    The only region that opposed more than supported it was the West. The Center had more support than opposition (though support was under 50%). Strong support in the South and East.

    Makes me wonder what the problem of West Ukraine is. Why are the fascist raguli so intolerant?

  73. @anonymous coward

    The decision came down from Moscow and not Kazan.
     
    Says who? Your deranged lying self?

    What was wrong with the way things were?
     
    Usually with these things the biggest campaigners against minority languages are other (non-titular) minority ethnicities.

    The decision came down from Moscow and not Kazan.

    Says who? Your deranged lying self?

    Says every single article that I’ve read about the topic. Do you know otherwise, then prove it. Who’s really lying and who’s telling the truth, tovarishch?

  74. Anon[422] • Disclaimer says:
    @AP
    Poll about attitude towards the Russian language in Ukraine:

    http://www.kiis.com.ua/?lang=eng&cat=reports&id=832&page=1

    29% think Russian and Ukrainian should be equally taught in schools (most popular choice in South and East)

    26% think Russian should be taught more than foreign languages but less than Ukrainian (most popular choice in the Center)

    25% think Russian should be treated like English or German (most popular choice in the West)

    8% think it shouldn't be taught at all (almost all of these people are in western Ukraine - it gets 22% support there)

    :::::::

    Poll was last done in 1998. Since then, in territories currently under Kiev's control (that is, not including Crimea and Donbas), support in equal Russian/Ukrainian language instruction has dropped from 40% to 27%. Most Ukrainians want the state language.

    ::::::::

    There is also a question about the Donbas war - would you support autonomy for Donbas if it ends the war.

    Strong support 28%
    Weak support 23%
    Weak opposition: 9%
    Strong opposition: 15%

    Hard to say: 23%

    The only region that opposed more than supported it was the West. The Center had more support than opposition (though support was under 50%). Strong support in the South and East.

    Expelling Donbas wasn't an option in this poll, nor were details of the nature of the autonomy spelled out.

    29% think Russian and Ukrainian should be equally taught in schools (most popular choice in South and East)

    The results at KIIS show that in the Donbass this is more than 70% of the population. And in the East and South the numbers reach over 50%.

    With this much support of bilingualism, I wonder how much was the conflict the result of LARPer Strelkov taking over Slavyansk rather than Ukrnazis taking over the parliament and attacking supporters of pluralism in the East?

  75. @Anatoly Karlin
    Genuinely interesting question whether the North could have won with the Brits backing the Confederates.

    It would have equalized naval and munitioning power, though the South would still be at a 2.5:1 manpower disadvantage. (Not like Britain was going to send masses of troops across the Atlantic).

    How long would British public opinion have tolerated being on the side of a slaving Power? Or would Northern morale to prosecute the war have fallen first?

    I am not aware what, if any, military plans had been drawn up but as you say the biggest effect would have been the RN and it would likely have been a largely naval intervention. Like Germany in WWI the Confederacy was really strangled to death and ending the naval blockade, as well as supplies of arms and ammunition would have perhaps been sufficient on their own. Otherwise I would have massively reinforced the garrison in Canada whilst refusing to intervene or invade with British troops. This would have forced the North to divert large number of troops away from the South. This analysis ignores what the French might have done.

    Good reason foreign intervention was always seen as the number one threat by Lincoln and his government . Before the summer of 63 this threat had dissipated with Vicksburg and Gettysburg but I think even as late as the start of 64 intervention could have been successful. Rebellions are almost always successful when they have a foreign sponsor. Psychologically the chances of victory shift dramatically to the rebelling side.

    • Agree: Anatoly Karlin
    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    The French were interested in intervention, but were unwilling to do so alone. Britain was unwilling to go against public opinion, which had unfortunately been brainwashed by abolitionist lunatics despite the demonstrable failure of abolition in the British West Indies.

    Had I been a British statesman at the time I would've preferred a maximalist objective of conquering the North and returning the entire United States to the British Empire. No sense leaving a resentful, sullen rump America in place with its rapidly growing population and dangerous industrial capability.

    In this sense British policymakers perhaps picked the second best option--good relations with America. The best option being eliminating America, and the worst option an extremely hostile America far away from Britain's center of gravity.
  76. E says:
    @Mitleser

    The one exception to this pattern, an estimate of 50%-60%, was produced by the Russian President’s Human Rights Council. However, on closer examination, it was not any sort of official figure, as presented by Forbes blogger Paul Roderick Gregory – a professional anti-Russian hack who later claimed 2,000 Russian soldiers died in Donbass on the basis of some lurid claims from a completely unknown Russian “business news” website – but the mere personal opinion of a single member of the Council, Yevgeny Bobrov, who based his assessment on conversations with a couple dozen unnamed “activists.”
     
    http://www.unz.com/akarlin/trump-right-on-crimea/

    Interesting, thanks for the link. I forgot about that article.

    For me, the most interesting is the part Anatoly mentions at the end, the transcripts of the Ukrainian discussions on February 28, 2014.

    records of discussions held amongst the leaders of the Maidan themselves. Debating on whether or not to use military force to keep Crimea within Ukraine at the height of the crisis, Interior Minister Arsen Avakov and former SBU head Valentin Nalivaychenko both admitted that Russia’s actions enjoyed the overwhelming support of the Crimeans.

    http://www.rnbo.gov.ua/files/2016/stenogr.pdf
    This is potentially the most convincing evidence for somebody who gets all their news from the Western media. Primary material of what the leaders of Ukraine were saying at the time. Although, what’s the proof that it’s a real document? How was it published?

    Unfortunately, I couldn’t find a fully transcribed version, much less a translation into English. I’m not great at reading Ukrainian myself. I did find that most (but not quite all) of the text in the PDF can be copied+pasted into Google Translate.

    Anyway, here are some of my own translations of relevant sections concerning the Ukraine elite’s beliefs about public opinion in Crimea (I mostly translated the Ukrainian into Russian, then that into English, manually fixing any mistakes along the way):

    The 2nd paragraph of pg. 6 is where Valentin Nalivaychenko admits that the idea of joining Russia enjoys mass support in Crimea:

    The fourth point concerning the situation in the Crimea is the mass support of the population for the actions of the Russian Federation.

    2nd paragraph, pg. 8: Nalivaychenko:

    Our military and security forces are demoralized. many of them do not recognize the new government and are not ready to carry out orders, or have already betrayed their oath. The situation in the Navy of Ukraine is especially difficult. There are signed letters of resignation, including by the Commander of the Naval Forces of Ukraine. The moral and psychological climate of the leadership is extremely low, if not entirely treasonous.

    p.9 paragraphs 2&3, Avakov (Minister of Internal Affairs):

    Separately, I’ll say that the majority of the population of Crimea takes a pro-Russian, anti-Ukrainian position. This is the risk we need to take into account. We are establishing communications with employees who have not betrayed us, but among the police these are very few.

    p.12, Tenyukh (Ukraine’s Minister of Defense) replying to Turchinov (acting President of Ukraine), who is asking how many of Ukraine’s 15,000 nominal forces in the region would be willing to fight:

    Difficult to answer. Most of the military are local contract soldiers. For them, service is money. You know the mood of the population in Crimea. There are also young people, conscripts who are unlikely to fight. Those who are ready to execute the order to use weapons will be 1.5-2 thousand maximum.

    p. 16, Nalivaychenko:

    Dear colleagues, I propose to invite to Kiev the leaders of Crimea’s Prosecutor’s Office, SBU and Police, because the vast majority of them are traitors. We need to know who is on our side now and who is not!

    p.16-17, Vitaliy Yarema (General Prosecutor of Ukraine):

    During the preparation of these preliminary steps, we discovered the dominant opinion of the civilian population. Since the premises of state institutions begin to be seized, they say, “If it’s fine to do it in Kiev, why we can’t we capture them in Crimea?”. Therefore, today I would like to address the Secretary of the National Security and Defence Council Andriy Parubiy to vacate today the premises seized by the Samooborona [Self-defence forces of Maidan], as much as possible, in order to show that we have law and order…

    (this suggestion was not discussed any further in the meeting, and no resolution was taken to implement it)

    The only sort-of dissenting voice at the meeting was Acting President Turchinov (he also seems to admit that the Crimean public and elites are against Ukraine, but believes that their opinion is not very deeply-held and can be changed. He also, unlike the others, does not accept that the opinions of the Crimean “street” played a crucial role in the Maidan government’s quick loss of power in Crimea in the days preceding the referendum, believing that it was 100% due to the Russian troops. Turchinov’s view became the mainstream one among Western analysts), p.23-24:

    The emphasis on the mass media is correct.
    It’s very important that we appeal to the residents of the Crimean peninsula. They must understand that the Ukrainian government is not their enemy, that we are ready to solve their local problems. We need to dispel this myth that the Crimeans raised a rebellion against Ukraine. These are not Crimeans. It’s solely a military operation against a sovereign country. That’s why we need to inform them that these are not activists of any party or public structures, but the Russian military who are not even hiding their identity any more. It is very important to recite and to propagate this objective view of these events to Ukraine and all the world.
    Andrei Vilenovich [Senchenko, head of Batkivshchyna party in Crimea], let’s have a few words concerning working with the Crimean elites. How can we drag the Crimean elite onto the side of Ukraine, and not the separatists?

    I think this is the first time that any of this text has been translated into English… if anybody wants to use it, be my guest.

    • Agree: Anatoly Karlin
    • Replies: @E

    Although, what’s the proof that it’s a real document? How was it published?
     
    Hah, never mind. The host site of that document, rnbo.gov.ua, is the homepage of the National Security and Defense Council of Ukraine, currently led by the same Turchinov who was Acting President of Ukraine back then. That's pretty convincing as proof that it's legitimate.
  77. Anon[422] • Disclaimer says:
    @Mr. Hack

    I did not want to have this discussion with you because we would spend dozens of comments trying to prove each other wrong. And since you broke the rules of my blog twice, your ass was blocked.
     
    Sounds about right, except your name should be updated to Stalin Resurrected, where everything you disagree with (an 'inconvenient truth') is labelled 'American propaganda' and then banned from public debate.

    while Tatar classes may have closed in Tatarstan because locals don’t want to learn Tatar.
     
    Another example of your lies, BS and deceit. Good luck Tovarish in building your Ruskij Mir, but you can count me out! :-(

    Sounds about right, except your name should be updated to Stalin Resurrected, where everything you disagree with (an ‘inconvenient truth’) is labelled ‘American propaganda’ and then banned from public debate.

    I don’t owe you a platform.

    You have, only in the course of this discussion, called me a Sovok and a Stalinist. Neither of which is in any way correct. That’s a kind of behaviour you displayed on my blog.

    You have been warned once. You have been given rules of my blog to read. I have given you a chance, and you blew it.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    As long a your behavior closely resembles the thuggish behavior of an authoritarian figure like Stalin, you'll continue to be compared to him. I've been writing commentary here at Karlin's blog for over two years now, and he's not even come close to banning me, even though I often post things that are inimical to his point of view. He's a very different sort of Russophile than you, much more intelligent and open minded than you are.

    I don’t owe you a platform
     
    You got that right, and nobody else in the world either from the look of things! Just look at the participation rate over at at your straitjacketed blog. You average about one comment per 10 threads, and even half of those are pingbacks that you're responsible for! It's really funny. And don't bother telling me how successful you are over in tweetland - I've looked at that bizarre configuration of 'dialogue' too. Everybody there seems to be talking past the other guy. It's sad really, you could have had an interesting blog, but you blew it. Now you're reduced to nothing more than looking for handouts over at Karlin's blog. Sad. :-(
    , @Rattus Norwegius
    "You have, only in the course of this discussion, called me a Sovok and a Stalinist. Neither of which is in any way correct. That’s a kind of behaviour you displayed on my blog."
    What would you describe yourself as?

    What kind of relationship do you want between Ukraine and Russia?

    Do you believe in the 'All-Russian Nation'?

    If you believe in the ' All-Russian Nation', can it not exist multiple versions of Russian(i.e. Russian, Pomor, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Rusyn)?

    Should Ukrainian be taught at all?

    Are you content with the current Russian government? Could it be worse? Could it be better?

  78. E says:
    @E
    Interesting, thanks for the link. I forgot about that article.

    For me, the most interesting is the part Anatoly mentions at the end, the transcripts of the Ukrainian discussions on February 28, 2014.


    records of discussions held amongst the leaders of the Maidan themselves. Debating on whether or not to use military force to keep Crimea within Ukraine at the height of the crisis, Interior Minister Arsen Avakov and former SBU head Valentin Nalivaychenko both admitted that Russia’s actions enjoyed the overwhelming support of the Crimeans.
     
    http://www.rnbo.gov.ua/files/2016/stenogr.pdf
    This is potentially the most convincing evidence for somebody who gets all their news from the Western media. Primary material of what the leaders of Ukraine were saying at the time. Although, what's the proof that it's a real document? How was it published?

    Unfortunately, I couldn't find a fully transcribed version, much less a translation into English. I'm not great at reading Ukrainian myself. I did find that most (but not quite all) of the text in the PDF can be copied+pasted into Google Translate.

    Anyway, here are some of my own translations of relevant sections concerning the Ukraine elite's beliefs about public opinion in Crimea (I mostly translated the Ukrainian into Russian, then that into English, manually fixing any mistakes along the way):

    The 2nd paragraph of pg. 6 is where Valentin Nalivaychenko admits that the idea of joining Russia enjoys mass support in Crimea:


    The fourth point concerning the situation in the Crimea is the mass support of the population for the actions of the Russian Federation.
     
    2nd paragraph, pg. 8: Nalivaychenko:

    Our military and security forces are demoralized. many of them do not recognize the new government and are not ready to carry out orders, or have already betrayed their oath. The situation in the Navy of Ukraine is especially difficult. There are signed letters of resignation, including by the Commander of the Naval Forces of Ukraine. The moral and psychological climate of the leadership is extremely low, if not entirely treasonous.
     
    p.9 paragraphs 2&3, Avakov (Minister of Internal Affairs):

    Separately, I'll say that the majority of the population of Crimea takes a pro-Russian, anti-Ukrainian position. This is the risk we need to take into account. We are establishing communications with employees who have not betrayed us, but among the police these are very few.
     
    p.12, Tenyukh (Ukraine's Minister of Defense) replying to Turchinov (acting President of Ukraine), who is asking how many of Ukraine's 15,000 nominal forces in the region would be willing to fight:

    Difficult to answer. Most of the military are local contract soldiers. For them, service is money. You know the mood of the population in Crimea. There are also young people, conscripts who are unlikely to fight. Those who are ready to execute the order to use weapons will be 1.5-2 thousand maximum.
     
    p. 16, Nalivaychenko:

    Dear colleagues, I propose to invite to Kiev the leaders of Crimea's Prosecutor's Office, SBU and Police, because the vast majority of them are traitors. We need to know who is on our side now and who is not!
     
    p.16-17, Vitaliy Yarema (General Prosecutor of Ukraine):

    During the preparation of these preliminary steps, we discovered the dominant opinion of the civilian population. Since the premises of state institutions begin to be seized, they say, "If it's fine to do it in Kiev, why we can't we capture them in Crimea?". Therefore, today I would like to address the Secretary of the National Security and Defence Council Andriy Parubiy to vacate today the premises seized by the Samooborona [Self-defence forces of Maidan], as much as possible, in order to show that we have law and order...
     
    (this suggestion was not discussed any further in the meeting, and no resolution was taken to implement it)

    The only sort-of dissenting voice at the meeting was Acting President Turchinov (he also seems to admit that the Crimean public and elites are against Ukraine, but believes that their opinion is not very deeply-held and can be changed. He also, unlike the others, does not accept that the opinions of the Crimean "street" played a crucial role in the Maidan government's quick loss of power in Crimea in the days preceding the referendum, believing that it was 100% due to the Russian troops. Turchinov's view became the mainstream one among Western analysts), p.23-24:


    The emphasis on the mass media is correct.
    It's very important that we appeal to the residents of the Crimean peninsula. They must understand that the Ukrainian government is not their enemy, that we are ready to solve their local problems. We need to dispel this myth that the Crimeans raised a rebellion against Ukraine. These are not Crimeans. It's solely a military operation against a sovereign country. That's why we need to inform them that these are not activists of any party or public structures, but the Russian military who are not even hiding their identity any more. It is very important to recite and to propagate this objective view of these events to Ukraine and all the world.
    Andrei Vilenovich [Senchenko, head of Batkivshchyna party in Crimea], let's have a few words concerning working with the Crimean elites. How can we drag the Crimean elite onto the side of Ukraine, and not the separatists?
     
    I think this is the first time that any of this text has been translated into English... if anybody wants to use it, be my guest.

    Although, what’s the proof that it’s a real document? How was it published?

    Hah, never mind. The host site of that document, rnbo.gov.ua, is the homepage of the National Security and Defense Council of Ukraine, currently led by the same Turchinov who was Acting President of Ukraine back then. That’s pretty convincing as proof that it’s legitimate.

  79. @Anon

    Sounds about right, except your name should be updated to Stalin Resurrected, where everything you disagree with (an ‘inconvenient truth’) is labelled ‘American propaganda’ and then banned from public debate.
     
    I don't owe you a platform.

    You have, only in the course of this discussion, called me a Sovok and a Stalinist. Neither of which is in any way correct. That's a kind of behaviour you displayed on my blog.

    You have been warned once. You have been given rules of my blog to read. I have given you a chance, and you blew it.

    As long a your behavior closely resembles the thuggish behavior of an authoritarian figure like Stalin, you’ll continue to be compared to him. I’ve been writing commentary here at Karlin’s blog for over two years now, and he’s not even come close to banning me, even though I often post things that are inimical to his point of view. He’s a very different sort of Russophile than you, much more intelligent and open minded than you are.

    I don’t owe you a platform

    You got that right, and nobody else in the world either from the look of things! Just look at the participation rate over at at your straitjacketed blog. You average about one comment per 10 threads, and even half of those are pingbacks that you’re responsible for! It’s really funny. And don’t bother telling me how successful you are over in tweetland – I’ve looked at that bizarre configuration of ‘dialogue’ too. Everybody there seems to be talking past the other guy. It’s sad really, you could have had an interesting blog, but you blew it. Now you’re reduced to nothing more than looking for handouts over at Karlin’s blog. Sad. 🙁

    • Replies: @Anon

    As long a your behavior closely resembles the thuggish behavior of an authoritarian figure like Stalin, you’ll continue to be compared to him.
     
    You can of course do whatever you want but not on my blog. I hope you are not a retard and understand this.


    I’ve been writing commentary here at Karlin’s blog for over two years now, and he’s not even come close to banning me, even though I often post things that are inimical to his point of view.
     
    I am not certain if the first thing you wrote on Karlin's blog was a personal insult. But you did that on my blog, and I don't want my blog to be full of semi-retarded commentary by a butthurt Svidomite.

    Just look at the participation rate over at at your straitjacketed blog. You average about one comment per 10 threads, and even half of those are pingbacks that you’re responsible for! It’s really funny.
     
    The fact that the discussions are not filled with your moronic comments does not bother me one bit. I'd rather get quality comments, which are on topic, than bother with you.
  80. Anon[422] • Disclaimer says:
    @Mr. Hack
    As long a your behavior closely resembles the thuggish behavior of an authoritarian figure like Stalin, you'll continue to be compared to him. I've been writing commentary here at Karlin's blog for over two years now, and he's not even come close to banning me, even though I often post things that are inimical to his point of view. He's a very different sort of Russophile than you, much more intelligent and open minded than you are.

    I don’t owe you a platform
     
    You got that right, and nobody else in the world either from the look of things! Just look at the participation rate over at at your straitjacketed blog. You average about one comment per 10 threads, and even half of those are pingbacks that you're responsible for! It's really funny. And don't bother telling me how successful you are over in tweetland - I've looked at that bizarre configuration of 'dialogue' too. Everybody there seems to be talking past the other guy. It's sad really, you could have had an interesting blog, but you blew it. Now you're reduced to nothing more than looking for handouts over at Karlin's blog. Sad. :-(

    As long a your behavior closely resembles the thuggish behavior of an authoritarian figure like Stalin, you’ll continue to be compared to him.

    You can of course do whatever you want but not on my blog. I hope you are not a retard and understand this.

    I’ve been writing commentary here at Karlin’s blog for over two years now, and he’s not even come close to banning me, even though I often post things that are inimical to his point of view.

    I am not certain if the first thing you wrote on Karlin’s blog was a personal insult. But you did that on my blog, and I don’t want my blog to be full of semi-retarded commentary by a butthurt Svidomite.

    Just look at the participation rate over at at your straitjacketed blog. You average about one comment per 10 threads, and even half of those are pingbacks that you’re responsible for! It’s really funny.

    The fact that the discussions are not filled with your moronic comments does not bother me one bit. I’d rather get quality comments, which are on topic, than bother with you.

  81. quality comments

    Like your own pingbacks! 🙂 🙂 🙂

    • Replies: @Anon

    Like your own pingbacks!
     
    I care about quality, not the quantity of horse shit that you generate. I don't care if I receive a comment once in a while. It is better than having shitstorms developing underneath every post, with you engaging in classic trolling tactics, and calling me Sovok and Stalinist.

    You must be a fucking idiot if you don't get this...

  82. @AP

    Tatarstan is a different local issue, but in any case even if there would be similarities the test is whether Kiev’s language policy has made Ukraine better and stronger. I has not, it has made it weaker.
     
    Only if you consider the effect on the Donbas territories, which de facto are no longer in Ukraine. OTOH the policies have consolidated the rest of the country.

    …the policies have consolidated the rest of the country.

    Poroshenko has 15% approval. I believe that is less than Yanukovitch at the end. And the comedian is getting 30% – in effect, the vote for the comedian is for ‘none of the above’, against the system. Quite a consolidation.

    • Replies: @AP

    …the policies have consolidated the rest of the country.

    Poroshenko has 15% approval.
     
    Consolidated around the Ukrainian national idea, not around Poroshenko personally.

    Also the 15% is with 40 candidates running. I'd give him a 40% chance of winning the election.
  83. @LondonBob
    UFOs were a cover story for experimental aircraft, the Soviets always hinted they knew this anyway.

    Still I met a Soviet cosmonaut who said he saw all sorts of weird and wonderful stuff when he went into space, the Soviet authorities told him to keep his mouth shut when he got back. Still I would expect there to be unusual phenomenon in space, not necessarily indicative of intelligent life.

    UFOs were a cover story for experimental aircraft,

    If you think about “B-2 Spirit” and “F-117”.

    Both these planes are tested in Nevada, from the early 1980s.

    At the same time, it is a national priority for them to be secret to Soviet Union and spies (especially the B-2 was going to be key to American strategic bombing strategy against the USSR).

    To inject UFO stories (and a mentally ill “UFO community” in the area) is a very useful cover to confuse Soviet intelligence in America, so we can assume the government might even invest a lot of funds in this.

    It’s advantage to confuse the opponent, to have “UFO stories” in this area of America. It creates more deniability for testing experimental airplanes.

    It can also frighten the opponent in the Cold War, to imagine that there may be experimental planes with the capacities reported by “UFO” sightings.

    Still I met a Soviet cosmonaut who said he saw all sorts of weird and wonderful stuff when he went into space, the Soviet authorities told him to keep his mouth shut when he got back.

    I believe that in back in USSR, “UFOs” were a publicly very suppressed topic.

    In the 1990s, suddenly a lot of former military officials and pilots, reported about how they had seen UFOs or that these objects had been investigated with a large budget (such as at НИИ-22).

    So it was privately, viewed as a serious topic in the USSR, with Brezhnev. But was not introduced in public discussion.

    Only in 1990s, after they leave their jobs and change of government, then military officials start saying to the public about seeing objects in the sky they could not identity.

    This is the difference to America, where the unidentified flying objects was a part of the public discussion (and the government used this public discussion for its personal advantage).

    Still I would expect there to be unusual phenomenon in space, not necessarily indicative of intelligent life.

    I read about a few stories. But it seems objects more commonly reported by pilots, but not by astronauts. And often it seems (from little I know about the topic), relating to objects on viewed by radar and by pilots at a relatively low altitude.

  84. @Mr. Hack

    the test is whether Kiev’s language policy has made Ukraine better and stronger. I has not, it has made it weaker.
     
    Just how exactly has Kyiv's language policy made Ukraine worse off and weaker? Many countries in the world give preference to the titular nation's native tongue. In Ukraine's case, it makes even more sense because Ukraine is trying to shed the ugly side of its imperial past, both during Czarist times and during Soviet times too. This past includesd a long history of policies that favored russification used to foster a sense of belonging to imperial states that no longer exist today.

    how exactly has Kyiv’s language policy made Ukraine worse off and weaker?

    We have an easy test: let’s say the language policy stayed the same after Maidan, Russians were not attacked and demonised (e.g. Odessa), Bandera marches were discouraged: would Ukraine today be stronger or weaker? You tell me.

    in Ukraine’s case, it makes even more sense because Ukraine is trying to shed the ugly side of its imperial past

    Many countries have minorities and ugly history: Irish with English, Hungarians in Romania-Slovakia, Turks in Bulgaria, Austrians in Italy, Basques, Swedes in Finland, Flemish in Belgium, and on and on. They have handled it differently, with a compromise and a mutual understanding. That is the European way that you yell about so much. Ukraine will never be in EU with an unresolved minority policies with its Russians, Hungarians etc… Kiev’s neo-con advisors don’t care, the Ukrainians should.

    • Replies: @Rattus Norwegius
    "That is the European way that you yell about so much. Ukraine will never be in EU with an unresolved minority policies with its Russians, Hungarians etc… Kiev’s neo-con advisors don’t care, the Ukrainians should."
    If those Russians either emigrate or re-identify as Ukrainian that minority problem will dissapear. It appears that Alsatian is going the way of the dodo. France is an EU member.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alsatian_dialect#Status_of_Alsatian_in_France
  85. Anon[422] • Disclaimer says:
    @Mr. Hack

    quality comments
     
    Like your own pingbacks! :-) :-) :-)

    Like your own pingbacks!

    I care about quality, not the quantity of horse shit that you generate. I don’t care if I receive a comment once in a while. It is better than having shitstorms developing underneath every post, with you engaging in classic trolling tactics, and calling me Sovok and Stalinist.

    You must be a fucking idiot if you don’t get this…

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    All that I get is that my style of bantering with commenters here does not provoke any great hostility at this blog, where freedom of expression is much greater respected than any project that you're involved with. If you act like a fanatical censor, don't be surprised if people label you a 'Stalinist' or a 'sovok'. Karlin isn't nearly as draconian as you are, therefore nobody has a need to label him with these unsavory epithets. Think about it, it does make sense.
  86. @Anon

    Like your own pingbacks!
     
    I care about quality, not the quantity of horse shit that you generate. I don't care if I receive a comment once in a while. It is better than having shitstorms developing underneath every post, with you engaging in classic trolling tactics, and calling me Sovok and Stalinist.

    You must be a fucking idiot if you don't get this...

    All that I get is that my style of bantering with commenters here does not provoke any great hostility at this blog, where freedom of expression is much greater respected than any project that you’re involved with. If you act like a fanatical censor, don’t be surprised if people label you a ‘Stalinist’ or a ‘sovok’. Karlin isn’t nearly as draconian as you are, therefore nobody has a need to label him with these unsavory epithets. Think about it, it does make sense.

    • Replies: @E
    To be fair, there are probably some who find it annoying that you often seem to go out of your way to pick a fight and consistently find the LEAST flattering way to interpret someone else's words.

    But oh well, if Karlin's fine with it then so am I (though I wasn't at first). You seem pretty okay if neither Ukraine nor Russia are the subject of the conversation, at least. Maybe there's a productive way to discuss them too - more experimentation is needed.

    On that note, I'm kind of curious what you think about the quotes I translated in comment 76. That was what Ukraine's leadership at the time believed. Were their assessments correct? Was there anything surprising in there for you (either now, or would have been surprising back then if you'd known it)?
    , @Anon
    I don't care what you think. You broke my rules twice, and will not get a third chance.
  87. @Anonymous
    On 4chan somebody made the comparison between banning distribution of this video and banning the distribution of child porn, and I have to admit it gave me pause. Obviously it's easy to make the case against producing child porn, but what about circulating stuff that already exists, much of which I understand was made in Scandinavia in the 1970s, when it was legal to do so? Almost everybody will support laws against the possession of child porn on the basis that it discourages the production of such materials and also that watching child porn would increase a person's likelihood of molesting children in real life...so why not apply the same logic to the shooting video, and ban it on the basis that it encourages copycat behavior?

    Of course this is a slippery slope (Do we ban ISIS videos? Cartel executions? 9/11 footage?), but it's an interesting discussion. With the rise of social media, and everybody having a camera/video recorder with them at all times, I suspect there will be more laws against the distribution of videos of criminal/terrorist acts, even if done by third parties.

    Don’t pornographers do it to make money though? No one is gonna make money from going on a shooting spree and posting it.

    • Replies: @Epigon
    You actually touched an interesting subject, right there.
    High-budget porn and “premium” subscription websites are an enigma to me - literally every single video is pirated and available for free - where does their profit come from?

    If the “product” you consume is free, perhaps you, the consumer, are the actual product of their enterprise?

  88. E says:
    @Mr. Hack
    All that I get is that my style of bantering with commenters here does not provoke any great hostility at this blog, where freedom of expression is much greater respected than any project that you're involved with. If you act like a fanatical censor, don't be surprised if people label you a 'Stalinist' or a 'sovok'. Karlin isn't nearly as draconian as you are, therefore nobody has a need to label him with these unsavory epithets. Think about it, it does make sense.

    To be fair, there are probably some who find it annoying that you often seem to go out of your way to pick a fight and consistently find the LEAST flattering way to interpret someone else’s words.

    But oh well, if Karlin’s fine with it then so am I (though I wasn’t at first). You seem pretty okay if neither Ukraine nor Russia are the subject of the conversation, at least. Maybe there’s a productive way to discuss them too – more experimentation is needed.

    On that note, I’m kind of curious what you think about the quotes I translated in comment 76. That was what Ukraine’s leadership at the time believed. Were their assessments correct? Was there anything surprising in there for you (either now, or would have been surprising back then if you’d known it)?

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack

    You seem pretty okay if neither Ukraine nor Russia are the subject of the conversation, at least.
     
    This is the first time that anybody has criticized me for not being solely interested in 'all things Ukrainian'. Thorfinnsson has even coined a term that supposedly defines my narrow minded interest in all matters that pertain to Ukraine - "Hackism" I actually find it flattering that you've noticed that I do indeed comment on many other topics too.

    I’m kind of curious what you think about the quotes I translated in comment 76.

     

    I have no reason to doubt the veracity of most of the content of these observations. I've never promoted the belief that the Crimea was a hotbed of Ukrainian patriotism. It is, after all, the oblast that had an ethnic group other than Ukrainian being in the majority, Russian.

    As for Karlin's tolerance of my pro-Ukrainian views on his blog, he's smart to realize, like Woody Allen did about atheists and God:


    “To you, I'm an atheist [svidomy].
    To God [Karlin], I'm the loyal opposition.”
     
    :-)
  89. Can someone tell me how to embed tweets here so they have the proper (realistic, not just text) formatting?

  90. Does anyone have any good sources to read on how strictly (or otherwise) ‘radical Islam’ actually is repressed in Western countries?

  91. @E
    To be fair, there are probably some who find it annoying that you often seem to go out of your way to pick a fight and consistently find the LEAST flattering way to interpret someone else's words.

    But oh well, if Karlin's fine with it then so am I (though I wasn't at first). You seem pretty okay if neither Ukraine nor Russia are the subject of the conversation, at least. Maybe there's a productive way to discuss them too - more experimentation is needed.

    On that note, I'm kind of curious what you think about the quotes I translated in comment 76. That was what Ukraine's leadership at the time believed. Were their assessments correct? Was there anything surprising in there for you (either now, or would have been surprising back then if you'd known it)?

    You seem pretty okay if neither Ukraine nor Russia are the subject of the conversation, at least.

    This is the first time that anybody has criticized me for not being solely interested in ‘all things Ukrainian’. Thorfinnsson has even coined a term that supposedly defines my narrow minded interest in all matters that pertain to Ukraine – “Hackism” I actually find it flattering that you’ve noticed that I do indeed comment on many other topics too.

    I’m kind of curious what you think about the quotes I translated in comment 76.

    I have no reason to doubt the veracity of most of the content of these observations. I’ve never promoted the belief that the Crimea was a hotbed of Ukrainian patriotism. It is, after all, the oblast that had an ethnic group other than Ukrainian being in the majority, Russian.

    As for Karlin’s tolerance of my pro-Ukrainian views on his blog, he’s smart to realize, like Woody Allen did about atheists and God:

    “To you, I’m an atheist [svidomy].
    To God [Karlin], I’m the loyal opposition.”

    🙂

  92. E says:

    Thanks for the reply.

    Actually, it’s possible that observing you flip out on Ukraine/Russia issues and being normal on others has improved my behaviour somewhat when discussing the former. I try to not use sarcasm or baiting now and just stick to primary sources presented in a neutral way. If the two are mixed together in a comment, you’ve tended to respond to the former and ignore the latter. I doubt you’re the only one who does that, so it’s probably a good rule of thumb in general.

    • Agree: Epigon
  93. @Mr. Hack
    All that I get is that my style of bantering with commenters here does not provoke any great hostility at this blog, where freedom of expression is much greater respected than any project that you're involved with. If you act like a fanatical censor, don't be surprised if people label you a 'Stalinist' or a 'sovok'. Karlin isn't nearly as draconian as you are, therefore nobody has a need to label him with these unsavory epithets. Think about it, it does make sense.

    I don’t care what you think. You broke my rules twice, and will not get a third chance.

    • Agree: Mr. Hack
  94. Oh, Boo, hoo…I’m banned for life From ‘the Dumbest Blog about Ukraine You Never Read’ 🙂

  95. @Anon

    Sounds about right, except your name should be updated to Stalin Resurrected, where everything you disagree with (an ‘inconvenient truth’) is labelled ‘American propaganda’ and then banned from public debate.
     
    I don't owe you a platform.

    You have, only in the course of this discussion, called me a Sovok and a Stalinist. Neither of which is in any way correct. That's a kind of behaviour you displayed on my blog.

    You have been warned once. You have been given rules of my blog to read. I have given you a chance, and you blew it.

    “You have, only in the course of this discussion, called me a Sovok and a Stalinist. Neither of which is in any way correct. That’s a kind of behaviour you displayed on my blog.”
    What would you describe yourself as?

    What kind of relationship do you want between Ukraine and Russia?

    Do you believe in the ‘All-Russian Nation’?

    If you believe in the ‘ All-Russian Nation’, can it not exist multiple versions of Russian(i.e. Russian, Pomor, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Rusyn)?

    Should Ukrainian be taught at all?

    Are you content with the current Russian government? Could it be worse? Could it be better?

    • Replies: @Anon

    What kind of relationship do you want between Ukraine and Russia?
     
    Friendship and cooperation on all levels.

    Do you believe in the ‘All-Russian Nation’?
     
    Yes, provincial nationalism has been overall bad news for the region.

    If you believe in the ‘ All-Russian Nation’, can it not exist multiple versions of Russian(i.e. Russian, Pomor, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Rusyn)?
     
    I believe that regional identities have a right to exist but we all know the Greater Russian culture is dominant and common to all. I have a friend I drink beer with from Transcarpathia, and he wouldn't even speak Ukrainian.

    Should Ukrainian be taught at all?
     
    I think Ukrainian is in demand in many parts of Ukraine, let them have their Ukrainian, unless they don't discriminate against Russian, of course. By the way, it would be a shame if songs in mova disappeared.


    Are you content with the current Russian government? Could it be worse? Could it be better?
     
    It could be better. Russia is an underdeveloped country which badly needs to make a technological and social leap forward. Putin is old and this requires somebody more energetic.
  96. @AP

    The Confederacy had too few people (~1 million free men of fighting age in 1861). Eventually, ~40% of them would die; a ratio comparable to the USSR’s military losses in WW2.
     
    Interesting. This explains the intensity in terms of honoring the sacrifices of their ancestors by American Southerners.

    yes, i didn’t realize the percentage was so high – explains a lot

    • Replies: @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan
    There is an old book called 'Civil War Regimental Losses' or something like that, by a former Union Army colonel named Fox.

    It is a very good book.

    At one point, he scrupulously examined combat casualties of various wars of the 19th century and found that no European war equaled the intensity of the American Civil War. Only Waterloo came close, and it was surpassed by Gettysburg.

    On the Union side alone, Fox said there were over 110,000 KIA, but Confederate casualty percentages were higher.

    Fox writes:


    The Franco-Prussian war of 1870-71 was one of the greatest of European wars. Larger armies were never assembled. The Germans took 797,950 men into France. Of this number, 28,277 were killed, or died of wounds-- a loss of 3.1 per cent. In the Crimean war, the allied armies lost 3.2 per cent. in killed, or deaths from wounds. In the war of 1866, the Austrian army lost 2.6 per cent. from the same cause. But, in the American Civil War the Union Armies lost 4.7 per cent., and the Confederates over 9 per cent.; and this despite the greater area of country, which required a large share of the troops to protect the lines of communication. There are no figures on record to show that, even in the Napoleonic wars, there was ever a greater percentage of loss in killed. In fact, all the statistics pertaining to the earlier wars of the century are loosely stated, and bear on their face a lack of accuracy.

     

    As for Borodino, the total number of killed and wounded - and men engaged - there exceeded Gettysburg, but the percentages at Gettysburg were higher.

    Of course Gettysburg lasted 3 days, in the middle of a longer, grueling campaign that summer. Antietam and Shiloh day one were more concentrated, so many Union veterans who survived both the former and Gettysburg claimed that Antietam was worse.

    I agree with something the "War Nerd" once wrote, namely that the armies of the American Civil War (both sides) were, more or less, as good as anyone who wants to claim "best army ever" tag. Put the Union Iron Brigade and the rebel Texas Brigade together in a division with some Wisconsin boys* from Sherman's army and I would take them over any European force.

    * Wisconsin is something of an unassuming state, but they have historically produced some damn fine fighting men

  97. @Beckow

    how exactly has Kyiv’s language policy made Ukraine worse off and weaker?

     

    We have an easy test: let's say the language policy stayed the same after Maidan, Russians were not attacked and demonised (e.g. Odessa), Bandera marches were discouraged: would Ukraine today be stronger or weaker? You tell me.

    in Ukraine’s case, it makes even more sense because Ukraine is trying to shed the ugly side of its imperial past
     
    Many countries have minorities and ugly history: Irish with English, Hungarians in Romania-Slovakia, Turks in Bulgaria, Austrians in Italy, Basques, Swedes in Finland, Flemish in Belgium, and on and on. They have handled it differently, with a compromise and a mutual understanding. That is the European way that you yell about so much. Ukraine will never be in EU with an unresolved minority policies with its Russians, Hungarians etc... Kiev's neo-con advisors don't care, the Ukrainians should.

    “That is the European way that you yell about so much. Ukraine will never be in EU with an unresolved minority policies with its Russians, Hungarians etc… Kiev’s neo-con advisors don’t care, the Ukrainians should.”
    If those Russians either emigrate or re-identify as Ukrainian that minority problem will dissapear. It appears that Alsatian is going the way of the dodo. France is an EU member.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alsatian_dialect#Status_of_Alsatian_in_France

    • Replies: @Beckow

    ...If those Russians either emigrate or re-identify as Ukrainian that minority problem will dissapear
     
    There are too many of them, millions and millions. It would take 1-2 full generations and Ukraine simply will not have the time. Once the de-nationalization of Russians started after Maidan, there was a natural and predictable counter-reaction. That means there can no longer be a quiet, over-time, assimilation. The mistakes Kiev elites made immediately post-Maidan will haunt them for a long time. In life, ideas only matter so much, at the end it is all in how you do it, in implementation.

    It took 50-75 years in France to pacify the Alsatians, and it is still not completely done. French methods - in general, not just with the Alsatians - would not work today.

  98. @silviosilver
    Don't pornographers do it to make money though? No one is gonna make money from going on a shooting spree and posting it.

    You actually touched an interesting subject, right there.
    High-budget porn and “premium” subscription websites are an enigma to me – literally every single video is pirated and available for free – where does their profit come from?

    If the “product” you consume is free, perhaps you, the consumer, are the actual product of their enterprise?

    • Replies: @notanon
    anal sex was mainstreamed through porn and they're currently trying to do the same with incest
    , @silviosilver
    I can only guess that so many people watch it that even if only a tiny percentage of them are willing to pay actual money for it, it still makes it a huge market. Try some back-of-the-envelope estimates and see.

    (Think about it, even webcam girls who do no more than get naked manage to make money.)

  99. @AP

    Tatarstan is a different local issue, but in any case even if there would be similarities the test is whether Kiev’s language policy has made Ukraine better and stronger. I has not, it has made it weaker.
     
    Only if you consider the effect on the Donbas territories, which de facto are no longer in Ukraine. OTOH the policies have consolidated the rest of the country.

    Only if you consider the effect on the Donbas territories, which de facto are no longer in Ukraine.

    You should tell that to the Ukrainian government lol. I wish they had your realism, as it stands they don’t even have the sense to recognize that Crimea is part of Russia.

    • Replies: @AP

    I wish they had your realism, as it stands they don’t even have the sense to recognize that Crimea is part of Russia.
     
    Because the mechanism of it becoming part of Russia was illegal and many unresolved issues remain (stolen property of Ukrainian citizens in Crimea, Russia took a bunch of gas wells in the Black Sea the Ukrainians had spent money developing, including one closer to the Ukrainian coast than to Crimea).

    Until these issues are settled, and it may take decades, Ukraine nor noone else ought to formally recognize the annexation.

    Thorfinnson had the right idea:

    http://www.unz.com/akarlin/open-thread-69/#comment-3086340

    The first step is arbitration/mediation by an outside power perceived to be fair and not favoring either side. Perhaps India.

    The second step is a referendum in disputed areas. Crimea and the Donets Basin obviously. Kharkov would be a good idea though I can’t see that any government in Kiev would ever accept that.

    The third step is for Russia to pay compensation not just to Ukrainian citizens but also to the Ukrainian state. When Austria-Hungary annexed Bosnia-Herzegovina (after occupying and administering it for three decades) compensation was paid to the Ottoman Empire.

    The last step is the trickiest–comprehensive normalization of relations between the Ukraine and Russia, and also between Russia and the West. This would include the normalization of economic relations and a security compromise acceptable to both sides (probably some of the Ukraine’s wishes would be sacrificed in the bargain)...

    Did anyone force Austria-Hungary to pay compensation to the Ottoman Empire? The answer is no. This was done to resolve the issue and restore good relations.

    Analogous to today, there was also an Ottoman boycott of Austro-Hungarian goods which was ended as a result of Austria-Hungary paying compensation to the Porte. The boycott caused commercial losses of $12bn in today’s money.

    Normalization of relations in this context would involve lifting the Western sanctions on Russia.

    Compensation by Russia to the Ukraine is appropriate because this was not a mere boundary dispute but an actual Russian invasion, occupation, and annexation of indisputably Ukrainian territory.

    And yes, as I noted previously and as Reiner Tor said now, this will not happen anytime soon.

     

  100. Got about 2 hours of sleep today, so much as I’d like to start my Crimea series on its formal anniversary, better do it on a clear head tomorrow.

    • Agree: E
  101. @Mr. Hack
    You make a good point. If Russia wishes to become a unitary state, then indeed it need not encourage the development and usage of the Tartar language. But let me remind you that Russia, at least formally, defines itself as being a federative state where separate nationalities have constitutional rights enshrined to develop and protect minority language rights within its constituent republics, like the Republic of Tartastan. Ukraine, having even a more autonomous stature within the Soviet Union was a separate state and therefore never needed (at least theoretically) outside direction in setting its own internal state policies - certainly not after 1991 since it left the orbit of the Soviet Union. BTW, Ukraine has defined itself as a unitary state, not a federative one.

    But let me remind you that Russia, at least formally, defines itself as being a federative state where separate nationalities have constitutional rights enshrined to develop and protect minority language rights within its constituent republics, like the Republic of Tartastan.

    Of course, but so what? This system is a legacy of Soviet times, and is partially reflective of the heavy over-representation that national minorities had in the early Soviet government, which feared Russian nationalism as much as anything else. If some policies of the federal system (such as promoting languages other than Russian) have become obstacles to the overall goal of achieving national unity and stability, then they should be circumvented. With that in mind, this is actually a rather mild change in policy, as they have not banned the teaching of the Tatar language, nor even restricted it; they have merely made it non-obligatory.

    Ukraine, having even a more autonomous stature within the Soviet Union was a separate state and therefore never needed (at least theoretically) outside direction in setting its own internal state policies – certainly not after 1991 since it left the orbit of the Soviet Union. BTW, Ukraine has defined itself as a unitary state, not a federative one.

    Ukraine is a perfect example of the long-term negative consequences of promoting regional languages and cultures. If the Soviet government had taken early steps to mandate that all Ukrainians had at least some years of education completely in Russian, it is highly doubtful that Ukrainian national sentiment would be nearly as widespread as today. It is good that Russia is making moves to ensure that it does not inadvertently create any more Ukraines.

    Thank you for your response! 🙂

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    Ukrainians have been quite adept at learning the Russian language since Czarist times and most Ukrainians are fluent in it. Many Ukrainians, especially in the South and East are more comfortable communicating in Russian, however, this doesn't diminish their pro-Ukrainian political views.
  102. @Anatoly Karlin
    The United States c.1860 had a respectable 7.2% share of global manufacturing output - about equivalent to that of France - the great bulk of which it ofc retained in the Union.

    Britain's share was 20%. However, it would hardly have devoted an all out effort in favor of the Confederacy, so it wouldn't mobilize to anywhere near the same extent as the Union. Munitioning potential would merely equalize. Which ofc would still be very bad for the Union, given the superior quality of the Confederacy's soldiers and generals.

    The Confederacy would get a massive boost from having its trade routes remain open, since it was far more dependent on international trade than the Union. So it could continue to import weapons and food. The Union would not be as hampered by a British blockade as the Confederacy was by the Union blockade, because it was both agriculturally and industrially basically self-sufficient. Having considerable naval capabilities of its own, the British blockade would also be relatively more porous.

    If the Union continued the war regardless, I think it would have won eventually anyway. This still doesn't solve the problem of the vast demographic disparity between the two sides: 2.5:1 in terms of total population, but 4:1 on the more relevant metric of free citizens. The Confederacy had too few people (~1 million free men of fighting age in 1861). Eventually, ~40% of them would die; a ratio comparable to the USSR's military losses in WW2. Unclear how it could have kept going on for much longer after 1865, even if far better equipped.

    The Confederacy had too few people ~1 million free men of fighting age in 1861. Eventually ~40% of them would die

    That is an eye-opening number that I didn’t know. I don’t think outsiders can appreciate US history without understanding it. Something about civil wars is very deadly. In retrospect, it is never worth it, but I respect the sacrifices.

  103. @Brabantian
    There is another YouTube rival claiming to have some ability to avoid the censors, D Tube

    For those who might want to evaluate the New Zealand shooting helmet-cam mosque massacre livestream - *Warning - Graphic Disturbing Content - Adults Only* - here is the 17-minute video that Turkey's President Erdogan is apparently showing the entire Muslim world, the sight of mosque attendees getting coldly shot to death, video-game-style, this vid having quite an impact amongst the Muslim ummah ... not pleasant, but a look will help to understand the blowback - conflict dangers that are now becoming actualised in the aftermath
    http://d.tube/#!/v/highimpactflix/l3p2l643

    You can see why they are trying so very hard to not let anyone see it, as it might make people suspect its not real. At the beginning he walks along a busy street brandishing a shotgun and also has an assault rifle and no one notices? There is even someone getting out of a parked car that he walks right by.

    Then on the way back out after firing off several magazines there is still traffic on the street.

    Oh, and it looks like he changed his mind midway and didn’t use the gasoline cans he brought to start a fire. Don’t want to cause a lot of expensive property damage, LOL.

    This is all just a stunt by T-Series to smear PewDiePie. And Indians hate Muslims, after all.

  104. @Rattus Norwegius
    "That is the European way that you yell about so much. Ukraine will never be in EU with an unresolved minority policies with its Russians, Hungarians etc… Kiev’s neo-con advisors don’t care, the Ukrainians should."
    If those Russians either emigrate or re-identify as Ukrainian that minority problem will dissapear. It appears that Alsatian is going the way of the dodo. France is an EU member.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alsatian_dialect#Status_of_Alsatian_in_France

    …If those Russians either emigrate or re-identify as Ukrainian that minority problem will dissapear

    There are too many of them, millions and millions. It would take 1-2 full generations and Ukraine simply will not have the time. Once the de-nationalization of Russians started after Maidan, there was a natural and predictable counter-reaction. That means there can no longer be a quiet, over-time, assimilation. The mistakes Kiev elites made immediately post-Maidan will haunt them for a long time. In life, ideas only matter so much, at the end it is all in how you do it, in implementation.

    It took 50-75 years in France to pacify the Alsatians, and it is still not completely done. French methods – in general, not just with the Alsatians – would not work today.

    • Replies: @AP

    There are too many of them, millions and millions.
     
    You are exaggerating again.

    With Donbas and Crimea gone there are probably around 5 million Russians left in Ukraine, vs. around 35 million Ukrainians. The Russians in western and central Ukraine are assimilating. The process is slower in the East and South but happening. Before the Maidan the Russian % was dropping faster than can be explained by death rate (Ukraine was 22% Russian in 1989, 17% Russian in 2001) - it was re-identification.

    Here is a map of declared native Russian-speakers:

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c5/UkraineNativeRussianLanguageCensus2001detailed.png/1280px-UkraineNativeRussianLanguageCensus2001detailed.png

    The dense part that would have trouble assimilating has been conveniently removed.


    The mistakes Kiev elites made immediately post-Maidan will haunt them for a long time.
     
    To the extent that they convinced the dense Russian areas to leave, they have been good.

    It took 50-75 years in France to pacify the Alsatians, and it is still not completely done.
     
    Dense Russian areas are gone. And Russians assimilate more easily to Ukrainians when surrounded by them (and vice versa) than Germans to French, the languages are more similar.
    , @Swedish Family

    There are too many of them, millions and millions. It would take 1-2 full generations and Ukraine simply will not have the time. Once the de-nationalization of Russians started after Maidan, there was a natural and predictable counter-reaction. That means there can no longer be a quiet, over-time, assimilation. The mistakes Kiev elites made immediately post-Maidan will haunt them for a long time. In life, ideas only matter so much, at the end it is all in how you do it, in implementation.

    It took 50-75 years in France to pacify the Alsatians, and it is still not completely done. French methods – in general, not just with the Alsatians – would not work today.
     
    Anatoly was on to something when he wrote that Maidanites are the true Sovoks -- ironically enough, as is nearly everything about Ukraine. This heavy-handedness is part of that. They just can't help themselves. Same with the Bandera worship. Not for them an adult, integrated sense of self; everything is black and white. Who was a saint? Who was a sinner? Who-Whom?

    As for the language question. What I feel is sometimes missing from these discussions is what a mortal threat Russian poses to Ukrainian. There is no way Ukrainian would survive in a free and open market, with Russian having 200+ million speakers and history on its side, and especially not given Ukrainian's status as a farmyard dialect (not a good sell in the Instagram age).

    Language laws are in order, then. But how strict? My offhand answer is that quotas and the like are fair up to a point, but if you have to near ban the other language, something is wrong with your carrot. Will they work? It would be odd if they didn't -- these are some seriously draconian laws -- but I somehow doubt their effectiveness now that ever more young people get everything they need from the internet. Even banning all Russian state television, let's say, isn't very helpful when it's already all over YouTube (and let's not forget that most media consumption is far more homely, things like following some dance instructor, or a food blogger, or a Russian trophy wife in LA). There is also, as ever, geography and history working against them. The place is pretty well boxed in by Russian speakers, and I expect cross-border travel to go up as Ukrainians grow less poor. The Crimea will also be a huge draw once things calm down a little. Many Kievans have fond memories of going there for youth camps or hikes in the mountains. The historical argument needs no explanation. I would merely stress that the personal always trumps the general. It matters that your great-grandma wrote her diary in Russian as it doesn't matter that some state functionary used it for writing out his arrest orders.
  105. @Epigon
    You actually touched an interesting subject, right there.
    High-budget porn and “premium” subscription websites are an enigma to me - literally every single video is pirated and available for free - where does their profit come from?

    If the “product” you consume is free, perhaps you, the consumer, are the actual product of their enterprise?

    anal sex was mainstreamed through porn and they’re currently trying to do the same with incest

    • Replies: @Epigon
    Dafuq?
    Mainstreaming incest? You sure about that?
    I mean, I could see the globohomo-pederasty-pedophilia connection, but this...
  106. @Epigon
    You actually touched an interesting subject, right there.
    High-budget porn and “premium” subscription websites are an enigma to me - literally every single video is pirated and available for free - where does their profit come from?

    If the “product” you consume is free, perhaps you, the consumer, are the actual product of their enterprise?

    I can only guess that so many people watch it that even if only a tiny percentage of them are willing to pay actual money for it, it still makes it a huge market. Try some back-of-the-envelope estimates and see.

    (Think about it, even webcam girls who do no more than get naked manage to make money.)

  107. Anon[422] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rattus Norwegius
    "You have, only in the course of this discussion, called me a Sovok and a Stalinist. Neither of which is in any way correct. That’s a kind of behaviour you displayed on my blog."
    What would you describe yourself as?

    What kind of relationship do you want between Ukraine and Russia?

    Do you believe in the 'All-Russian Nation'?

    If you believe in the ' All-Russian Nation', can it not exist multiple versions of Russian(i.e. Russian, Pomor, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Rusyn)?

    Should Ukrainian be taught at all?

    Are you content with the current Russian government? Could it be worse? Could it be better?

    What kind of relationship do you want between Ukraine and Russia?

    Friendship and cooperation on all levels.

    Do you believe in the ‘All-Russian Nation’?

    Yes, provincial nationalism has been overall bad news for the region.

    If you believe in the ‘ All-Russian Nation’, can it not exist multiple versions of Russian(i.e. Russian, Pomor, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Rusyn)?

    I believe that regional identities have a right to exist but we all know the Greater Russian culture is dominant and common to all. I have a friend I drink beer with from Transcarpathia, and he wouldn’t even speak Ukrainian.

    Should Ukrainian be taught at all?

    I think Ukrainian is in demand in many parts of Ukraine, let them have their Ukrainian, unless they don’t discriminate against Russian, of course. By the way, it would be a shame if songs in mova disappeared.

    Are you content with the current Russian government? Could it be worse? Could it be better?

    It could be better. Russia is an underdeveloped country which badly needs to make a technological and social leap forward. Putin is old and this requires somebody more energetic.

    • Agree: Anatoly Karlin
  108. @Anatoly Karlin
    The United States c.1860 had a respectable 7.2% share of global manufacturing output - about equivalent to that of France - the great bulk of which it ofc retained in the Union.

    Britain's share was 20%. However, it would hardly have devoted an all out effort in favor of the Confederacy, so it wouldn't mobilize to anywhere near the same extent as the Union. Munitioning potential would merely equalize. Which ofc would still be very bad for the Union, given the superior quality of the Confederacy's soldiers and generals.

    The Confederacy would get a massive boost from having its trade routes remain open, since it was far more dependent on international trade than the Union. So it could continue to import weapons and food. The Union would not be as hampered by a British blockade as the Confederacy was by the Union blockade, because it was both agriculturally and industrially basically self-sufficient. Having considerable naval capabilities of its own, the British blockade would also be relatively more porous.

    If the Union continued the war regardless, I think it would have won eventually anyway. This still doesn't solve the problem of the vast demographic disparity between the two sides: 2.5:1 in terms of total population, but 4:1 on the more relevant metric of free citizens. The Confederacy had too few people (~1 million free men of fighting age in 1861). Eventually, ~40% of them would die; a ratio comparable to the USSR's military losses in WW2. Unclear how it could have kept going on for much longer after 1865, even if far better equipped.

    The Confederacy had too few people (~1 million free men of fighting age in 1861). Eventually, ~40% of them would die

    The most comprehensive review of Civil War casualties I have seen is “A Census-Based Count of the Civil War Dead” (J. David Hacker, Civil War History, Volume 57, Number 4, December 2011, pp. 307-348). His conclusion (p. 316) was that:

    Approximately 18 percent of southern white men of military age lost their lives in the conflict, compared to just 6 percent of northern men.

    https://muse.jhu.edu/article/465917

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    I'm certainly no expert, so I'll defer to that figure.

    My back of the envelope logic that I used to generate the 40% estimate.

    Free population of Confederacy: 5.6 million
    ~ Of which half men: 2.8 million
    ~ Of which 52% 15–59 years: 1.4-1.5 million
    ~ Of which fighting age: 1.0 million (?); typically considered to be those in the 18-45 y/o bracket

    Conventional figure: 258,000 for the Confederacy.
    Hacker's figure: 20% higher (which I got from the NYT) --> 310,000
    Due to poorer record keeping, I had subconsciously assumed that the extra deaths would likely be loaded against the Confederacy. I assume that was a wrong assumption.

    And, in retrospect, I should also have borne in mind that the fertility rate back then (1840s cohort) was extremely high; probably something like 200,000-300,000 men must have entered military age between 1860 and 1865. This would have dampened the impact.
  109. @notanon
    anal sex was mainstreamed through porn and they're currently trying to do the same with incest

    Dafuq?
    Mainstreaming incest? You sure about that?
    I mean, I could see the globohomo-pederasty-pedophilia connection, but this…

    • Replies: @notanon
    trojan horse is step parents / step children
  110. @for-the-record
    The Confederacy had too few people (~1 million free men of fighting age in 1861). Eventually, ~40% of them would die

    The most comprehensive review of Civil War casualties I have seen is "A Census-Based Count of the Civil War Dead" (J. David Hacker, Civil War History, Volume 57, Number 4, December 2011, pp. 307-348). His conclusion (p. 316) was that:

    Approximately 18 percent of southern white men of military age lost their lives in the conflict, compared to just 6 percent of northern men.
     
    https://muse.jhu.edu/article/465917

    I’m certainly no expert, so I’ll defer to that figure.

    My back of the envelope logic that I used to generate the 40% estimate.

    Free population of Confederacy: 5.6 million
    ~ Of which half men: 2.8 million
    ~ Of which 52% 15–59 years: 1.4-1.5 million
    ~ Of which fighting age: 1.0 million (?); typically considered to be those in the 18-45 y/o bracket

    Conventional figure: 258,000 for the Confederacy.
    Hacker’s figure: 20% higher (which I got from the NYT) –> 310,000
    Due to poorer record keeping, I had subconsciously assumed that the extra deaths would likely be loaded against the Confederacy. I assume that was a wrong assumption.

    And, in retrospect, I should also have borne in mind that the fertility rate back then (1840s cohort) was extremely high; probably something like 200,000-300,000 men must have entered military age between 1860 and 1865. This would have dampened the impact.

  111. @Anatoly Karlin
    The United States c.1860 had a respectable 7.2% share of global manufacturing output - about equivalent to that of France - the great bulk of which it ofc retained in the Union.

    Britain's share was 20%. However, it would hardly have devoted an all out effort in favor of the Confederacy, so it wouldn't mobilize to anywhere near the same extent as the Union. Munitioning potential would merely equalize. Which ofc would still be very bad for the Union, given the superior quality of the Confederacy's soldiers and generals.

    The Confederacy would get a massive boost from having its trade routes remain open, since it was far more dependent on international trade than the Union. So it could continue to import weapons and food. The Union would not be as hampered by a British blockade as the Confederacy was by the Union blockade, because it was both agriculturally and industrially basically self-sufficient. Having considerable naval capabilities of its own, the British blockade would also be relatively more porous.

    If the Union continued the war regardless, I think it would have won eventually anyway. This still doesn't solve the problem of the vast demographic disparity between the two sides: 2.5:1 in terms of total population, but 4:1 on the more relevant metric of free citizens. The Confederacy had too few people (~1 million free men of fighting age in 1861). Eventually, ~40% of them would die; a ratio comparable to the USSR's military losses in WW2. Unclear how it could have kept going on for much longer after 1865, even if far better equipped.

    An RN blockade of the North would have been even more effective than the North’s blockade of the South. Smashing the Union navy, “The work of a few hours”, sniffed Palmerston. In 1861 the British had 63 ships-of-the-line (60 guns and above) to the American 0. The total count of all commissioned warships was 598 to 42. Bye-bye Anaconda plan! Pretty soon it would be the British doing an “Anaconda plan” on Union ports. The North had no ocean going ironclads unlike the RN which had several. Britain would also have acted in conjunction with France, which was more pro-South than Britain. In any scenario with British involvement, you’re also talking French involvement on the same side. This makes an already huge impact bigger: add 35 ships-of-the-line and 231 smaller ships to the totals above.

    Also blockade runners in the South could run to Bermuda etc., whereas the North would have no nearby friendly ports. Blockade runners also relied on smokeless coal from Wales.

    There are also specific issues the North would face with a blockade, gunpowder could not be produced and the North relied on iron imported from Britain.

    http://67thtigers.blogspot.com/2010/06/royal-navy-force-designated-for-america.html

    Having read up on this I under estimated how weak the North was.

    • Agree: Anatoly Karlin
    • Replies: @Bukephalos
    if you're correct then it was indeed the greatest misjudgement Brits made in history; and, I have a hard time believing slavery was the root cause. I remarked before they had zero compunction about supporting the slaving Ottomans, with their infamous white harems, at the same time. Therefore, economic motivations must have had taken precedence- it's an innately mediocre worldview: yes business is flourishing but how can you not try and reclaim what was formerly yours? when the window of opportunity is wide open before you, and soon to be shut forever? A classic case of selling the rope to hang you
  112. @George
    Should the 737 be the subject of a criminal investigation?

    Only if it has gang affiliation with Chicago blacks.

  113. @Epigon
    Dafuq?
    Mainstreaming incest? You sure about that?
    I mean, I could see the globohomo-pederasty-pedophilia connection, but this...

    trojan horse is step parents / step children

  114. @Beckow

    ...the policies have consolidated the rest of the country.

     

    Poroshenko has 15% approval. I believe that is less than Yanukovitch at the end. And the comedian is getting 30% - in effect, the vote for the comedian is for 'none of the above', against the system. Quite a consolidation.

    …the policies have consolidated the rest of the country.

    Poroshenko has 15% approval.

    Consolidated around the Ukrainian national idea, not around Poroshenko personally.

    Also the 15% is with 40 candidates running. I’d give him a 40% chance of winning the election.

    • Replies: @Beckow

    ... I’d give him a 40% chance of winning the election.
     
    Good one, we will hold you to that :)...

    Yanukovitch in 2014 was more popular than Poroshenko is today, why no Maidan X? Yushenko ended up with 5% in 2010. The numbers, my friend, don't lie.

    30% say they will vote for a comedian - that says it all about the 'consolidation' of the national idea. Maybe they plan to start a circus.
  115. @Denis

    Only if you consider the effect on the Donbas territories, which de facto are no longer in Ukraine.
     
    You should tell that to the Ukrainian government lol. I wish they had your realism, as it stands they don't even have the sense to recognize that Crimea is part of Russia.

    I wish they had your realism, as it stands they don’t even have the sense to recognize that Crimea is part of Russia.

    Because the mechanism of it becoming part of Russia was illegal and many unresolved issues remain (stolen property of Ukrainian citizens in Crimea, Russia took a bunch of gas wells in the Black Sea the Ukrainians had spent money developing, including one closer to the Ukrainian coast than to Crimea).

    Until these issues are settled, and it may take decades, Ukraine nor noone else ought to formally recognize the annexation.

    Thorfinnson had the right idea:

    http://www.unz.com/akarlin/open-thread-69/#comment-3086340

    The first step is arbitration/mediation by an outside power perceived to be fair and not favoring either side. Perhaps India.

    The second step is a referendum in disputed areas. Crimea and the Donets Basin obviously. Kharkov would be a good idea though I can’t see that any government in Kiev would ever accept that.

    The third step is for Russia to pay compensation not just to Ukrainian citizens but also to the Ukrainian state. When Austria-Hungary annexed Bosnia-Herzegovina (after occupying and administering it for three decades) compensation was paid to the Ottoman Empire.

    The last step is the trickiest–comprehensive normalization of relations between the Ukraine and Russia, and also between Russia and the West. This would include the normalization of economic relations and a security compromise acceptable to both sides (probably some of the Ukraine’s wishes would be sacrificed in the bargain)…

    Did anyone force Austria-Hungary to pay compensation to the Ottoman Empire? The answer is no. This was done to resolve the issue and restore good relations.

    Analogous to today, there was also an Ottoman boycott of Austro-Hungarian goods which was ended as a result of Austria-Hungary paying compensation to the Porte. The boycott caused commercial losses of $12bn in today’s money.

    Normalization of relations in this context would involve lifting the Western sanctions on Russia.

    Compensation by Russia to the Ukraine is appropriate because this was not a mere boundary dispute but an actual Russian invasion, occupation, and annexation of indisputably Ukrainian territory.

    And yes, as I noted previously and as Reiner Tor said now, this will not happen anytime soon.

    • Replies: @Denis

    Because the mechanism of it becoming part of Russia was illegal and many unresolved issues remain (stolen property of Ukrainian citizens in Crimea, Russia took a bunch of gas wells in the Black Sea the Ukrainians had spent money developing, including one closer to the Ukrainian coast than to Crimea).

    Until these issues are settled, and it may take decades, Ukraine nor noone else ought to formally recognize the annexation.

     

    Who cares? Why should Russia even bother entering into negotiations with Ukraine about Crimea's status? The only realistic, practical outcome of any discussion would be that Russia basically pays the Ukrainian government to grant official recognition to reality, thereby granting some legitimacy to Ukraine's government and softening the sting to the nationalists' pride. But why would Russia do this when Ukraine's government has been so resolutely hostile since 2013? It doesn't make any sense to for Russia to help the Ukrainian government save face when Russia already has what it wants. It's much better to allow the issue to fester, so that the government is delegitmized over its outlandish claim on Crimea.
  116. @Beckow

    ...If those Russians either emigrate or re-identify as Ukrainian that minority problem will dissapear
     
    There are too many of them, millions and millions. It would take 1-2 full generations and Ukraine simply will not have the time. Once the de-nationalization of Russians started after Maidan, there was a natural and predictable counter-reaction. That means there can no longer be a quiet, over-time, assimilation. The mistakes Kiev elites made immediately post-Maidan will haunt them for a long time. In life, ideas only matter so much, at the end it is all in how you do it, in implementation.

    It took 50-75 years in France to pacify the Alsatians, and it is still not completely done. French methods - in general, not just with the Alsatians - would not work today.

    There are too many of them, millions and millions.

    You are exaggerating again.

    With Donbas and Crimea gone there are probably around 5 million Russians left in Ukraine, vs. around 35 million Ukrainians. The Russians in western and central Ukraine are assimilating. The process is slower in the East and South but happening. Before the Maidan the Russian % was dropping faster than can be explained by death rate (Ukraine was 22% Russian in 1989, 17% Russian in 2001) – it was re-identification.

    Here is a map of declared native Russian-speakers:

    The dense part that would have trouble assimilating has been conveniently removed.

    The mistakes Kiev elites made immediately post-Maidan will haunt them for a long time.

    To the extent that they convinced the dense Russian areas to leave, they have been good.

    It took 50-75 years in France to pacify the Alsatians, and it is still not completely done.

    Dense Russian areas are gone. And Russians assimilate more easily to Ukrainians when surrounded by them (and vice versa) than Germans to French, the languages are more similar.

    • Replies: @Beckow

    ...around 5 million Russians left in Ukraine
     
    It is probably more, but even 5 million is still 'millions', exactly as I said. Are you aware that 5 million is the same as 'millions'? Have you ever done math?

    You have a childish tendency to always use the same moronic argument: 'everyone exaggerates'. Really? You are not very good with numbers (I am betting US education). And almost any statement can be described as 'exaggerated', so it is rather meaningless. Now if people multiply things by 10 or 20, now that is an exaggeration. Remember your '100,000 dead' that turned out to be 550? Other than variances that big, screaming 'exaggeration' as you do is a waste of time, it means almost nothing. Learn some math, it is online these days.

  117. @AP

    I wish they had your realism, as it stands they don’t even have the sense to recognize that Crimea is part of Russia.
     
    Because the mechanism of it becoming part of Russia was illegal and many unresolved issues remain (stolen property of Ukrainian citizens in Crimea, Russia took a bunch of gas wells in the Black Sea the Ukrainians had spent money developing, including one closer to the Ukrainian coast than to Crimea).

    Until these issues are settled, and it may take decades, Ukraine nor noone else ought to formally recognize the annexation.

    Thorfinnson had the right idea:

    http://www.unz.com/akarlin/open-thread-69/#comment-3086340

    The first step is arbitration/mediation by an outside power perceived to be fair and not favoring either side. Perhaps India.

    The second step is a referendum in disputed areas. Crimea and the Donets Basin obviously. Kharkov would be a good idea though I can’t see that any government in Kiev would ever accept that.

    The third step is for Russia to pay compensation not just to Ukrainian citizens but also to the Ukrainian state. When Austria-Hungary annexed Bosnia-Herzegovina (after occupying and administering it for three decades) compensation was paid to the Ottoman Empire.

    The last step is the trickiest–comprehensive normalization of relations between the Ukraine and Russia, and also between Russia and the West. This would include the normalization of economic relations and a security compromise acceptable to both sides (probably some of the Ukraine’s wishes would be sacrificed in the bargain)...

    Did anyone force Austria-Hungary to pay compensation to the Ottoman Empire? The answer is no. This was done to resolve the issue and restore good relations.

    Analogous to today, there was also an Ottoman boycott of Austro-Hungarian goods which was ended as a result of Austria-Hungary paying compensation to the Porte. The boycott caused commercial losses of $12bn in today’s money.

    Normalization of relations in this context would involve lifting the Western sanctions on Russia.

    Compensation by Russia to the Ukraine is appropriate because this was not a mere boundary dispute but an actual Russian invasion, occupation, and annexation of indisputably Ukrainian territory.

    And yes, as I noted previously and as Reiner Tor said now, this will not happen anytime soon.

     

    Because the mechanism of it becoming part of Russia was illegal and many unresolved issues remain (stolen property of Ukrainian citizens in Crimea, Russia took a bunch of gas wells in the Black Sea the Ukrainians had spent money developing, including one closer to the Ukrainian coast than to Crimea).

    Until these issues are settled, and it may take decades, Ukraine nor noone else ought to formally recognize the annexation.

    Who cares? Why should Russia even bother entering into negotiations with Ukraine about Crimea’s status? The only realistic, practical outcome of any discussion would be that Russia basically pays the Ukrainian government to grant official recognition to reality, thereby granting some legitimacy to Ukraine’s government and softening the sting to the nationalists’ pride. But why would Russia do this when Ukraine’s government has been so resolutely hostile since 2013? It doesn’t make any sense to for Russia to help the Ukrainian government save face when Russia already has what it wants. It’s much better to allow the issue to fester, so that the government is delegitmized over its outlandish claim on Crimea.

  118. @AP

    …the policies have consolidated the rest of the country.

    Poroshenko has 15% approval.
     
    Consolidated around the Ukrainian national idea, not around Poroshenko personally.

    Also the 15% is with 40 candidates running. I'd give him a 40% chance of winning the election.

    … I’d give him a 40% chance of winning the election.

    Good one, we will hold you to that :)…

    Yanukovitch in 2014 was more popular than Poroshenko is today, why no Maidan X? Yushenko ended up with 5% in 2010. The numbers, my friend, don’t lie.

    30% say they will vote for a comedian – that says it all about the ‘consolidation’ of the national idea. Maybe they plan to start a circus.

    • Replies: @AP

    Yanukovitch in 2014 was more popular than Poroshenko is today, why no Maidan X?
     
    Because Poroshenko is more popular today than Yanikiviuch was in 2014. You simply don't know what polls mean (or pretend not to).

    Poroshenko is polling at 15% because there are about 40 candidates running.

    30% say they will vote for a comedian – that says it all about the ‘consolidation’ of the national idea
     
    Americans elected a reality TV star. And this was the best option. And the American national idea is strong.
  119. @AP

    There are too many of them, millions and millions.
     
    You are exaggerating again.

    With Donbas and Crimea gone there are probably around 5 million Russians left in Ukraine, vs. around 35 million Ukrainians. The Russians in western and central Ukraine are assimilating. The process is slower in the East and South but happening. Before the Maidan the Russian % was dropping faster than can be explained by death rate (Ukraine was 22% Russian in 1989, 17% Russian in 2001) - it was re-identification.

    Here is a map of declared native Russian-speakers:

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c5/UkraineNativeRussianLanguageCensus2001detailed.png/1280px-UkraineNativeRussianLanguageCensus2001detailed.png

    The dense part that would have trouble assimilating has been conveniently removed.


    The mistakes Kiev elites made immediately post-Maidan will haunt them for a long time.
     
    To the extent that they convinced the dense Russian areas to leave, they have been good.

    It took 50-75 years in France to pacify the Alsatians, and it is still not completely done.
     
    Dense Russian areas are gone. And Russians assimilate more easily to Ukrainians when surrounded by them (and vice versa) than Germans to French, the languages are more similar.

    …around 5 million Russians left in Ukraine

    It is probably more, but even 5 million is still ‘millions‘, exactly as I said. Are you aware that 5 million is the same as ‘millions’? Have you ever done math?

    You have a childish tendency to always use the same moronic argument: ‘everyone exaggerates‘. Really? You are not very good with numbers (I am betting US education). And almost any statement can be described as ‘exaggerated’, so it is rather meaningless. Now if people multiply things by 10 or 20, now that is an exaggeration. Remember your ‘100,000 dead’ that turned out to be 550? Other than variances that big, screaming ‘exaggeration’ as you do is a waste of time, it means almost nothing. Learn some math, it is online these days.

    • Replies: @AP

    It is probably more, but even 5 million is still ‘millions‘,
     
    You wrote "millions and millions", implying some huge number. They are outnumbered 6 to 1 in Ukraine. That can be assimilated.

    You are not very good with numbers (I am betting US education).
     
    You can't tell the difference between many hours and 1.5 hours. you claim Yanukovich won in Transcarepathia, he lost by 6%. I am betting Slovak education -)

    Check out PISA scores for American whites. They are higher than for any European country other than Finland.

    http://www.unz.com/isteve/2015-pisa-mean-scores-in-perspective/

    Slovaks worse than Mexican Americans :-)
  120. @Dmitry
    Songbird I logged here today to ask you if you saw this newly, strange article?

    U.S. IN UFO RACE WITH CHINA, RUSSIA, FORMER SENATE MAJORITY LEADER SUGGESTS

    Former Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid dropped major hints that he knows potential adversaries, Russia and China, have carried out their own military studies to figure out how UFOs work and how to build their own,” Knapp said during the broadcast, citing anonymous Pentagon sources to claim dozens of UFOs have been encountered off the coast of Florida and Virginia in the last three years.

     

    https://www.newsweek.com/ufo-2019-harry-reid-china-russia-senate-unexplained-aerial-phenomena-1349256

    We were discussing Bigelow Aerospace a few weeks ago, and decided Robert Bigelow seems quite insane (which is the impression from seeing videos of him).

    But what is reliability of Harry Reid? Harry Reid is also friends with Robert Bigelow, and partly responsible for government funding of Bigelow Aerospace, so there could be some corruption there.

    In this story, Harry Reid "dropped major hints that he knows potential adversaries, Russia and China, have carried out their own military studies to figure out how UFOs work and how to build their own."

    Nothing in Russian media is reporting this.

    In Russian media, position "UFOs are a hoax" and result of mental illness, seems like common consensus in the articles in mainstream media for the last few years. It's strange to see American media going more in the "crazy direction" with this topic.

    That is funny. I appreciate you bringing it to my attention, for I had not seen it.

    I was scratching my head for a moment: where had I heard UFOs in politics before? Hillary Clinton when she was the Democratic front-runner in 2016 brought up the idea that she would do an investigation into what UFO secrets the government was hiding, if elected. The idea came originally from her campaign manager Podesta who has made many previous remarks about including when he was an advisor for the Obama Administration.

    Podesta apparently wrote the forward to some fringe book in 2011 by Leslie Kean, called “UFOs: Generals, Pilots, and Government Officials Go on the Record.” I feel like I must find it now, to see if it touches on this triple race to develop UFO tech. In 2015 or so, Bill Clinton actually made remarks about trying to find out what happened in Roswell, when he was president.

    With Hillary, I can’t help but think that there was there weird drive, not just specifically because of Podesta, but because it presented a facade of radical transparency, when it was for instance widely known she had been using her own email system, against regulations.

    In the case of Harry Reid, it is impossible to ignore that Bigelow was a donor to him. $22 million may not seem like a lot to award a billionaire like Bigelow, but it was at least indulging him in his insanity at taxpayer expense. The other senators involved, Ted Stevens and Inouye don’t have a good record. Stevens wanted to build “a bridge to nowhere” in Alaska for $398 million.

    BTW, that UFO author I mentioned, Leslie Kean, was apparently involved in the NYT UFO research story, along with two other authors. NYT has published a few such stories. She seems like a genuine crazy person.

  121. @LondonBob
    An RN blockade of the North would have been even more effective than the North's blockade of the South. Smashing the Union navy, “The work of a few hours”, sniffed Palmerston. In 1861 the British had 63 ships-of-the-line (60 guns and above) to the American 0. The total count of all commissioned warships was 598 to 42. Bye-bye Anaconda plan! Pretty soon it would be the British doing an “Anaconda plan” on Union ports. The North had no ocean going ironclads unlike the RN which had several. Britain would also have acted in conjunction with France, which was more pro-South than Britain. In any scenario with British involvement, you’re also talking French involvement on the same side. This makes an already huge impact bigger: add 35 ships-of-the-line and 231 smaller ships to the totals above.

    Also blockade runners in the South could run to Bermuda etc., whereas the North would have no nearby friendly ports. Blockade runners also relied on smokeless coal from Wales.

    There are also specific issues the North would face with a blockade, gunpowder could not be produced and the North relied on iron imported from Britain.

    http://67thtigers.blogspot.com/2010/06/royal-navy-force-designated-for-america.html

    Having read up on this I under estimated how weak the North was.

    if you’re correct then it was indeed the greatest misjudgement Brits made in history; and, I have a hard time believing slavery was the root cause. I remarked before they had zero compunction about supporting the slaving Ottomans, with their infamous white harems, at the same time. Therefore, economic motivations must have had taken precedence- it’s an innately mediocre worldview: yes business is flourishing but how can you not try and reclaim what was formerly yours? when the window of opportunity is wide open before you, and soon to be shut forever? A classic case of selling the rope to hang you

    • Replies: @Bukephalos
    when you think about it, interesting lesson here re: the US kickstarting and being essential to China's rise by allowing massive economic interpenetration- was rational to spur the sino-soviet split, certainly not afterward. Same pattern as their Brits forefathers it seems, profits make blind.
    , @Thorfinnsson
    Slavery was absolutely the root cause. A letter by Abraham Lincoln to unemployed textile workers of Lancashire:

    Extract of a letter / To the working people of Manchester 19th January 1863 / I know and deeply deplore the sufferings which the working people of Manchester / and in all Europe are called to endure in this crisis. It has been often and studiously / represented that the attempt to overthrow this Government which was built on the / foundation of human rights, and to substitute for it one which should rest exclusively / on the basis of slavery, was likely to obtain the favour of Europe. / Through the action of disloyal citizens the working people of Europe / have been subjected to a severe trial for the purpose of forcing their sanction / to that attempt. Under these circumstances I cannot but regard your decisive / utterances upon the question as an instance of sublime Christian heroism which has / not been surpassed in any age or in any country. It is indeed an energetic / and re-inspiring assurance of the inherent truth and of the ultimate and universal / triumph of justice, humanity and freedom ... I hail this interchange of sentiments / therefore, as an augury that whatever else may happen, whatever misfortune / may befall your country or my own, the peace and friendship which now exists / between the two nations will be as it shall be my desire to make them, perpetual.
     

    19th century Anglos (outside of the American South) had been by 1860 brainwashed into believing that slavery was somehow evil, and this view was even supported by the literally starving unemployed workers of the English Midlands who acted directly against their material interests in opposing the recognition of the Confederacy.

    The abolition of slavery in the British West Indies was known as "the Great Experiment" because economists predicted it would increase productivity. Instead productivity collapsed and the center of Caribbean plantation agriculture shifted to Cuba. Despite clearly being incorrect, the British did not reverse themselves and reinstate slavery.

    European powers pressured the Ottoman Empire to end slavery, and white slaves were freed by 1830. Supporting the Ottoman Empire was also not without controversy in Britain. Gladstone hated the Turks and considered them to be cruel barbarians. Remember also the tendency for Westerners to judge other white countries more harshly. No one gives a shit about the fact that homo-sexuals are executed in many Mohammedan countries, whereas Homintern is outraged about Russia's law against propagandizing homo-sexuality to minors.

    As for economic motivations, Britain's failure to intervene resulted in the "cotton famine" in the Midlands, and this at a time when textiles were the world's largest manufacturing industry and one in which Britain was globally dominant. Britain's economy suffered as a result of its baffling worship of negroes and ahistorical view of slavery.

  122. @Dmitry
    Here is video related to the Newsweek article:

    At 2:37, lol involvement of John McCain

    At 3:28 - about missiles and Russia, which I'm not sure this all could be cover for.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0NJRXBLhB0

    I’m of two minds about the origin of this idea that the U.S. is falling behind on UFO research:

    One is that is a rhetorical ploy for legitimacy.

    The other is that it just a natural result of the culture and the craziness that it spawns. Like the 2008 movie “Indiana Jones and the Crystal Skull” where the Soviets invade Area-51. The idealized setting for aliens in America really is the 1950s. I wonder if this common movie aesthetic could help influence the subconscious brain of susceptible individuals into forming the idea that America is behind.

  123. @Bukephalos
    if you're correct then it was indeed the greatest misjudgement Brits made in history; and, I have a hard time believing slavery was the root cause. I remarked before they had zero compunction about supporting the slaving Ottomans, with their infamous white harems, at the same time. Therefore, economic motivations must have had taken precedence- it's an innately mediocre worldview: yes business is flourishing but how can you not try and reclaim what was formerly yours? when the window of opportunity is wide open before you, and soon to be shut forever? A classic case of selling the rope to hang you

    when you think about it, interesting lesson here re: the US kickstarting and being essential to China’s rise by allowing massive economic interpenetration- was rational to spur the sino-soviet split, certainly not afterward. Same pattern as their Brits forefathers it seems, profits make blind.

  124. @Beckow

    ...If those Russians either emigrate or re-identify as Ukrainian that minority problem will dissapear
     
    There are too many of them, millions and millions. It would take 1-2 full generations and Ukraine simply will not have the time. Once the de-nationalization of Russians started after Maidan, there was a natural and predictable counter-reaction. That means there can no longer be a quiet, over-time, assimilation. The mistakes Kiev elites made immediately post-Maidan will haunt them for a long time. In life, ideas only matter so much, at the end it is all in how you do it, in implementation.

    It took 50-75 years in France to pacify the Alsatians, and it is still not completely done. French methods - in general, not just with the Alsatians - would not work today.

    There are too many of them, millions and millions. It would take 1-2 full generations and Ukraine simply will not have the time. Once the de-nationalization of Russians started after Maidan, there was a natural and predictable counter-reaction. That means there can no longer be a quiet, over-time, assimilation. The mistakes Kiev elites made immediately post-Maidan will haunt them for a long time. In life, ideas only matter so much, at the end it is all in how you do it, in implementation.

    It took 50-75 years in France to pacify the Alsatians, and it is still not completely done. French methods – in general, not just with the Alsatians – would not work today.

    Anatoly was on to something when he wrote that Maidanites are the true Sovoks — ironically enough, as is nearly everything about Ukraine. This heavy-handedness is part of that. They just can’t help themselves. Same with the Bandera worship. Not for them an adult, integrated sense of self; everything is black and white. Who was a saint? Who was a sinner? Who-Whom?

    As for the language question. What I feel is sometimes missing from these discussions is what a mortal threat Russian poses to Ukrainian. There is no way Ukrainian would survive in a free and open market, with Russian having 200+ million speakers and history on its side, and especially not given Ukrainian’s status as a farmyard dialect (not a good sell in the Instagram age).

    Language laws are in order, then. But how strict? My offhand answer is that quotas and the like are fair up to a point, but if you have to near ban the other language, something is wrong with your carrot. Will they work? It would be odd if they didn’t — these are some seriously draconian laws — but I somehow doubt their effectiveness now that ever more young people get everything they need from the internet. Even banning all Russian state television, let’s say, isn’t very helpful when it’s already all over YouTube (and let’s not forget that most media consumption is far more homely, things like following some dance instructor, or a food blogger, or a Russian trophy wife in LA). There is also, as ever, geography and history working against them. The place is pretty well boxed in by Russian speakers, and I expect cross-border travel to go up as Ukrainians grow less poor. The Crimea will also be a huge draw once things calm down a little. Many Kievans have fond memories of going there for youth camps or hikes in the mountains. The historical argument needs no explanation. I would merely stress that the personal always trumps the general. It matters that your great-grandma wrote her diary in Russian as it doesn’t matter that some state functionary used it for writing out his arrest orders.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean

    especially not given Ukrainian’s status as a farmyard dialect (not a good sell in the Instagram age).

     

    Really?

    https://img.theculturetrip.com/375x/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/shutterstock_1090091555.jpg

    https://img.theculturetrip.com/375x/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/shutterstock_1051041908.jpg
    , @AP

    given Ukrainian’s status as a farmyard dialect (not a good sell in the Instagram age).
     
    It was traditional status of most languages, including Russian.

    Ukrainian language is the first language of Lviv, a city of 800,000 people, larger than the largest Slovak, Lithuanian etc. cities.
    , @Beckow

    ...Maidanites are the true Sovoks
     
    They are something, all right. They have a desperate need to paint the reality as positively as they can, no doubts. The past must be validated - if it requires mindless optimism bordering on dementia, so be it. This is an interesting dynamic because it inadvertently means that they will not adjust their behaviour to better suit the circumstances. The Maidanistas are going down marching in torch parades and singing victory songs. It is actually better that way, who needs weepy regretful dreamers who suddenly want to make good and be friends? As I often say, this will be a lot of fun, farm dialects, rusty pipelines, wild escapes, and at the end that sullen look on empty faces as they realise that the gig is up. Priceless.

    But I wouldn't dump on the Ukrainian language because of the politics surrounding it. I like regional and smaller languages, and a 'farm dialect' suits me fine, if cattle understands what I am saying, that's good...

    , @Anon

    Language laws are in order, then. But how strict?
     
    I hope they are as strict as possible. It will make Ukraine look bad internationally and invite massive corruption.
  125. @Swedish Family

    There are too many of them, millions and millions. It would take 1-2 full generations and Ukraine simply will not have the time. Once the de-nationalization of Russians started after Maidan, there was a natural and predictable counter-reaction. That means there can no longer be a quiet, over-time, assimilation. The mistakes Kiev elites made immediately post-Maidan will haunt them for a long time. In life, ideas only matter so much, at the end it is all in how you do it, in implementation.

    It took 50-75 years in France to pacify the Alsatians, and it is still not completely done. French methods – in general, not just with the Alsatians – would not work today.
     
    Anatoly was on to something when he wrote that Maidanites are the true Sovoks -- ironically enough, as is nearly everything about Ukraine. This heavy-handedness is part of that. They just can't help themselves. Same with the Bandera worship. Not for them an adult, integrated sense of self; everything is black and white. Who was a saint? Who was a sinner? Who-Whom?

    As for the language question. What I feel is sometimes missing from these discussions is what a mortal threat Russian poses to Ukrainian. There is no way Ukrainian would survive in a free and open market, with Russian having 200+ million speakers and history on its side, and especially not given Ukrainian's status as a farmyard dialect (not a good sell in the Instagram age).

    Language laws are in order, then. But how strict? My offhand answer is that quotas and the like are fair up to a point, but if you have to near ban the other language, something is wrong with your carrot. Will they work? It would be odd if they didn't -- these are some seriously draconian laws -- but I somehow doubt their effectiveness now that ever more young people get everything they need from the internet. Even banning all Russian state television, let's say, isn't very helpful when it's already all over YouTube (and let's not forget that most media consumption is far more homely, things like following some dance instructor, or a food blogger, or a Russian trophy wife in LA). There is also, as ever, geography and history working against them. The place is pretty well boxed in by Russian speakers, and I expect cross-border travel to go up as Ukrainians grow less poor. The Crimea will also be a huge draw once things calm down a little. Many Kievans have fond memories of going there for youth camps or hikes in the mountains. The historical argument needs no explanation. I would merely stress that the personal always trumps the general. It matters that your great-grandma wrote her diary in Russian as it doesn't matter that some state functionary used it for writing out his arrest orders.

    especially not given Ukrainian’s status as a farmyard dialect (not a good sell in the Instagram age).

    Really?

  126. AP says:
    @Beckow

    ... I’d give him a 40% chance of winning the election.
     
    Good one, we will hold you to that :)...

    Yanukovitch in 2014 was more popular than Poroshenko is today, why no Maidan X? Yushenko ended up with 5% in 2010. The numbers, my friend, don't lie.

    30% say they will vote for a comedian - that says it all about the 'consolidation' of the national idea. Maybe they plan to start a circus.

    Yanukovitch in 2014 was more popular than Poroshenko is today, why no Maidan X?

    Because Poroshenko is more popular today than Yanikiviuch was in 2014. You simply don’t know what polls mean (or pretend not to).

    Poroshenko is polling at 15% because there are about 40 candidates running.

    30% say they will vote for a comedian – that says it all about the ‘consolidation’ of the national idea

    Americans elected a reality TV star. And this was the best option. And the American national idea is strong.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean

    Americans elected a reality TV star. And this was the best option. And the American national idea is strong.
     
    This seems a bit of a dubious endorsement.

    The election of the Caudillo vs. Evita occurred precisely because American national idea is weakening, and it has weakened even more in the years following.

    A more positive example might be Reagan, a controversial former film star prone to appearing foolish, who reigned a more united country (but who also contributed to the current situation).
  127. @Swedish Family

    There are too many of them, millions and millions. It would take 1-2 full generations and Ukraine simply will not have the time. Once the de-nationalization of Russians started after Maidan, there was a natural and predictable counter-reaction. That means there can no longer be a quiet, over-time, assimilation. The mistakes Kiev elites made immediately post-Maidan will haunt them for a long time. In life, ideas only matter so much, at the end it is all in how you do it, in implementation.

    It took 50-75 years in France to pacify the Alsatians, and it is still not completely done. French methods – in general, not just with the Alsatians – would not work today.
     
    Anatoly was on to something when he wrote that Maidanites are the true Sovoks -- ironically enough, as is nearly everything about Ukraine. This heavy-handedness is part of that. They just can't help themselves. Same with the Bandera worship. Not for them an adult, integrated sense of self; everything is black and white. Who was a saint? Who was a sinner? Who-Whom?

    As for the language question. What I feel is sometimes missing from these discussions is what a mortal threat Russian poses to Ukrainian. There is no way Ukrainian would survive in a free and open market, with Russian having 200+ million speakers and history on its side, and especially not given Ukrainian's status as a farmyard dialect (not a good sell in the Instagram age).

    Language laws are in order, then. But how strict? My offhand answer is that quotas and the like are fair up to a point, but if you have to near ban the other language, something is wrong with your carrot. Will they work? It would be odd if they didn't -- these are some seriously draconian laws -- but I somehow doubt their effectiveness now that ever more young people get everything they need from the internet. Even banning all Russian state television, let's say, isn't very helpful when it's already all over YouTube (and let's not forget that most media consumption is far more homely, things like following some dance instructor, or a food blogger, or a Russian trophy wife in LA). There is also, as ever, geography and history working against them. The place is pretty well boxed in by Russian speakers, and I expect cross-border travel to go up as Ukrainians grow less poor. The Crimea will also be a huge draw once things calm down a little. Many Kievans have fond memories of going there for youth camps or hikes in the mountains. The historical argument needs no explanation. I would merely stress that the personal always trumps the general. It matters that your great-grandma wrote her diary in Russian as it doesn't matter that some state functionary used it for writing out his arrest orders.

    given Ukrainian’s status as a farmyard dialect (not a good sell in the Instagram age).

    It was traditional status of most languages, including Russian.

    Ukrainian language is the first language of Lviv, a city of 800,000 people, larger than the largest Slovak, Lithuanian etc. cities.

    • Replies: @Swedish Family

    It was traditional status of most languages, including Russian.

    Ukrainian language is the first language of Lviv, a city of 800,000 people, larger than the largest Slovak, Lithuanian etc. cities.
     
    Sure, but there is a here and now. I have seen myself a Russian girl with zero interest in Ukraine (or Russia) break out laughing when asked to read out a text in Ukrainian. This matters.

    For the record, this is not at all my impression. From watching the odd Ukrainian TV show, it seems to me that the true divide is between "educated" and "prole" speech, just as in Russian. I sometimes find it easier to understand someone speaking "educated" Ukrainian than someone speaking "prole" Russian with a Ukrainian accent.
  128. AP says:
    @Beckow

    ...around 5 million Russians left in Ukraine
     
    It is probably more, but even 5 million is still 'millions', exactly as I said. Are you aware that 5 million is the same as 'millions'? Have you ever done math?

    You have a childish tendency to always use the same moronic argument: 'everyone exaggerates'. Really? You are not very good with numbers (I am betting US education). And almost any statement can be described as 'exaggerated', so it is rather meaningless. Now if people multiply things by 10 or 20, now that is an exaggeration. Remember your '100,000 dead' that turned out to be 550? Other than variances that big, screaming 'exaggeration' as you do is a waste of time, it means almost nothing. Learn some math, it is online these days.

    It is probably more, but even 5 million is still ‘millions‘,

    You wrote “millions and millions”, implying some huge number. They are outnumbered 6 to 1 in Ukraine. That can be assimilated.

    You are not very good with numbers (I am betting US education).

    You can’t tell the difference between many hours and 1.5 hours. you claim Yanukovich won in Transcarepathia, he lost by 6%. I am betting Slovak education -)

    Check out PISA scores for American whites. They are higher than for any European country other than Finland.

    http://www.unz.com/isteve/2015-pisa-mean-scores-in-perspective/

    Slovaks worse than Mexican Americans 🙂

    • Replies: @Beckow

    ...millions and millions”, implying some huge number
     
    What number would that be? Maybe 5 million? What is 'huge' in your book?

    Trump was a billionaire real estate developer with a TV show. Not the same thing as the funny-boy about to take over in Kiev. If you cannot even distinguish an obvious 'damn them all' protest vote, maybe math is not your only problem.

    The '40 candidates' mantra you keep on shouting about is silly: most have 0.1% support, so they don't matter. And if Porky was any good, the number of his opponents wouldn't matter. But he is not, he is at 15% - Yanuk was at solid 20% when he was run out of town. If Porky wins, nobody will buy it. Even for the Ukrainian democracy that would be a bridge too far. No Porky will lose and quietly slip out of Kiev after he comes in 3rd (or 4th) in the first round. That's why they have the 2-week period in between, he needs time to pack. He will be out of there faster than an Irishman when potato harvest fails.


    Slovaks worse than Mexican Americans 🙂
     
    Well, our girls are prettier. Take that. Next time some 5 foot tall, 300 pound, sh.t-color, mishapen Cholita is teaching you math, remember that there are still real girls out there...and they don't take PISA tests (whatever that is)...
  129. @AP

    It is probably more, but even 5 million is still ‘millions‘,
     
    You wrote "millions and millions", implying some huge number. They are outnumbered 6 to 1 in Ukraine. That can be assimilated.

    You are not very good with numbers (I am betting US education).
     
    You can't tell the difference between many hours and 1.5 hours. you claim Yanukovich won in Transcarepathia, he lost by 6%. I am betting Slovak education -)

    Check out PISA scores for American whites. They are higher than for any European country other than Finland.

    http://www.unz.com/isteve/2015-pisa-mean-scores-in-perspective/

    Slovaks worse than Mexican Americans :-)

    …millions and millions”, implying some huge number

    What number would that be? Maybe 5 million? What is ‘huge’ in your book?

    Trump was a billionaire real estate developer with a TV show. Not the same thing as the funny-boy about to take over in Kiev. If you cannot even distinguish an obvious ‘damn them all’ protest vote, maybe math is not your only problem.

    The ‘40 candidates‘ mantra you keep on shouting about is silly: most have 0.1% support, so they don’t matter. And if Porky was any good, the number of his opponents wouldn’t matter. But he is not, he is at 15% – Yanuk was at solid 20% when he was run out of town. If Porky wins, nobody will buy it. Even for the Ukrainian democracy that would be a bridge too far. No Porky will lose and quietly slip out of Kiev after he comes in 3rd (or 4th) in the first round. That’s why they have the 2-week period in between, he needs time to pack. He will be out of there faster than an Irishman when potato harvest fails.

    Slovaks worse than Mexican Americans 🙂

    Well, our girls are prettier. Take that. Next time some 5 foot tall, 300 pound, sh.t-color, mishapen Cholita is teaching you math, remember that there are still real girls out there…and they don’t take PISA tests (whatever that is)…

    • Replies: @AP

    …millions and millions”, implying some huge number

    What number would that be? Maybe 5 million? What is ‘huge’ in your book?
     
    You wrote that there were millions and millions of Russians in Ukraine, too many to assimilate. Because you can't count, I pointed out to you that the number was about 5 million (probably lower) and that they are outnumbered by 6 times more Ukrainians amongst whom they live. That's a recipe for assimilation. Indeed, the Russians in western Ukraine (mostly they live in Lviv which is about 8% ethnic Russian) are already majority Ukrainian-speaking.

    Trump was a billionaire real estate developer with a TV show. Not the same thing as the funny-boy about to take over in Kiev.
     
    He got famous because of his show. "Billionaire" is questionable. Zelensky owns some media company and was on the board of one of the largest TV channels in the country.

    Also Zelensky gave a million dollars to the Ukrainian forces fighting in Donbas. I'm not sure why you think support for him means there is no consolidation of Ukrainian national feelings. It just means people are really sick of corruption and willing to take gamble based on this.

    But he is not, he is at 15% – Yanuk was at solid 20% when he was run out of town.
     
    Yanuk was one of 2 pro-Russian candidates with support. Poroshenko is one of 6 pro-Western candidates significant support.

    If Porky wins, nobody will buy it.
     
    I said he had a good (~40%) chance of winning months ago when the pro-Rusisans were gloating that he was int he single digits and had zero chance, and I was right. He has a good chance of getting into the second round. After that he has a good chance of winning. I don't predict he will win but I won't be surprised if he does.

    Slovaks worse than Mexican Americans 🙂

    Well, our girls are prettier.
     
    And worse at math.

    PISA mean score white Americans: 519
    PISA mean score Hispanic Americans: 465
    PISA mean score Slovakia: 463

    Your girls are indeed prettier, though not my cup of tea. I have nothing against peasants, being 1/4 peasant myself, but they are not my type.
    , @silviosilver

    What number would that be? Maybe 5 million? What is ‘huge’ in your book?
     
    My opinion on this crucial issue: if you said 'millions' once, then that would imply a figure of up to or around about 5 million. 'Millions and millions' to me suggests something like 10-20 million; over 10 anyway.
  130. @AP

    Yanukovitch in 2014 was more popular than Poroshenko is today, why no Maidan X?
     
    Because Poroshenko is more popular today than Yanikiviuch was in 2014. You simply don't know what polls mean (or pretend not to).

    Poroshenko is polling at 15% because there are about 40 candidates running.

    30% say they will vote for a comedian – that says it all about the ‘consolidation’ of the national idea
     
    Americans elected a reality TV star. And this was the best option. And the American national idea is strong.

    Americans elected a reality TV star. And this was the best option. And the American national idea is strong.

    This seems a bit of a dubious endorsement.

    The election of the Caudillo vs. Evita occurred precisely because American national idea is weakening, and it has weakened even more in the years following.

    A more positive example might be Reagan, a controversial former film star prone to appearing foolish, who reigned a more united country (but who also contributed to the current situation).

    • Replies: @AP

    Americans elected a reality TV star. And this was the best option. And the American national idea is strong.

    This seems a bit of a dubious endorsement.
     
    Americans elected a guy with a nationalist image and message. Compare to western Europe.
  131. AP says:
    @Beckow

    ...millions and millions”, implying some huge number
     
    What number would that be? Maybe 5 million? What is 'huge' in your book?

    Trump was a billionaire real estate developer with a TV show. Not the same thing as the funny-boy about to take over in Kiev. If you cannot even distinguish an obvious 'damn them all' protest vote, maybe math is not your only problem.

    The '40 candidates' mantra you keep on shouting about is silly: most have 0.1% support, so they don't matter. And if Porky was any good, the number of his opponents wouldn't matter. But he is not, he is at 15% - Yanuk was at solid 20% when he was run out of town. If Porky wins, nobody will buy it. Even for the Ukrainian democracy that would be a bridge too far. No Porky will lose and quietly slip out of Kiev after he comes in 3rd (or 4th) in the first round. That's why they have the 2-week period in between, he needs time to pack. He will be out of there faster than an Irishman when potato harvest fails.


    Slovaks worse than Mexican Americans 🙂
     
    Well, our girls are prettier. Take that. Next time some 5 foot tall, 300 pound, sh.t-color, mishapen Cholita is teaching you math, remember that there are still real girls out there...and they don't take PISA tests (whatever that is)...

    …millions and millions”, implying some huge number

    What number would that be? Maybe 5 million? What is ‘huge’ in your book?

    You wrote that there were millions and millions of Russians in Ukraine, too many to assimilate. Because you can’t count, I pointed out to you that the number was about 5 million (probably lower) and that they are outnumbered by 6 times more Ukrainians amongst whom they live. That’s a recipe for assimilation. Indeed, the Russians in western Ukraine (mostly they live in Lviv which is about 8% ethnic Russian) are already majority Ukrainian-speaking.

    Trump was a billionaire real estate developer with a TV show. Not the same thing as the funny-boy about to take over in Kiev.

    He got famous because of his show. “Billionaire” is questionable. Zelensky owns some media company and was on the board of one of the largest TV channels in the country.

    Also Zelensky gave a million dollars to the Ukrainian forces fighting in Donbas. I’m not sure why you think support for him means there is no consolidation of Ukrainian national feelings. It just means people are really sick of corruption and willing to take gamble based on this.

    But he is not, he is at 15% – Yanuk was at solid 20% when he was run out of town.

    Yanuk was one of 2 pro-Russian candidates with support. Poroshenko is one of 6 pro-Western candidates significant support.

    If Porky wins, nobody will buy it.

    I said he had a good (~40%) chance of winning months ago when the pro-Rusisans were gloating that he was int he single digits and had zero chance, and I was right. He has a good chance of getting into the second round. After that he has a good chance of winning. I don’t predict he will win but I won’t be surprised if he does.

    Slovaks worse than Mexican Americans 🙂

    Well, our girls are prettier.

    And worse at math.

    PISA mean score white Americans: 519
    PISA mean score Hispanic Americans: 465
    PISA mean score Slovakia: 463

    Your girls are indeed prettier, though not my cup of tea. I have nothing against peasants, being 1/4 peasant myself, but they are not my type.

    • Replies: @Beckow
    To summarise your post: the funny-boy Zelinsky is about as rich as Trump (good one), you doubled down on Porky's win (I suspect on 4/1 you will be nowhere to be seen), and you read some PISA stuff for enlightment.

    I have nothing against peasants, being 1/4 peasant myself, but they are not my type.
     
    I can guess what the other 3/4 of you are and you can keep it. We are not interested. Our girls don't date Poles, too poor and usually too scummy. We mostly see Poles coming in dusty 1950's buses trying to sell some stuff at village markets. So the 5-footers with a life-size Jesus hanging from their neck is all you get. Enjoy, maybe you can do some calculus together.
    , @Mr. Hack

    Your girls are indeed prettier
     
    That's a pretty strong endorsement AP. I'm no expert about Slovak women, but Ukrainian women have been celebrated as some of the most beautiful on the planet since time immemorial. You must not have been to Kyiv or Lviv lately AP, ones head just keeps rotating from left to right:

    https://ukrainiandatingblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/russian-vs-ukrainian-women.jpg

    https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/1600/1*Idx-aGnzJO6_FVes8934Ng.jpeg
  132. @Hyperborean

    Americans elected a reality TV star. And this was the best option. And the American national idea is strong.
     
    This seems a bit of a dubious endorsement.

    The election of the Caudillo vs. Evita occurred precisely because American national idea is weakening, and it has weakened even more in the years following.

    A more positive example might be Reagan, a controversial former film star prone to appearing foolish, who reigned a more united country (but who also contributed to the current situation).

    Americans elected a reality TV star. And this was the best option. And the American national idea is strong.

    This seems a bit of a dubious endorsement.

    Americans elected a guy with a nationalist image and message. Compare to western Europe.

    • Replies: @utu
    You got Beckov going. I haven't seen him that active before. Keep it up so we learn even more about him, "for out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks."
    , @Hyperborean

    Americans elected a guy with a nationalist image and message. Compare to western Europe.
     
    His average approval ratings are fluctuating between 35-45% (for comparison he won 46.1% votes in the 2016 presidential election) and among Republicans his approval rates are generally in the high 80s.

    As of March 2019 they are 90% among Republicans, 1 point higher than when he started in January 2017.

    Is there a difference between "MAGA" and "MIGA"?
    And if there isn't, what does this say about American "capitalist state patriotism"?

    So, yes, you may, in a matter of interpretation, be correct when you state that the "American national idea is strong", but then I wouldn't consider it a complementary statement.

    https://news.gallup.com/poll/203198/presidential-approval-ratings-donald-trump.aspx

  133. @Swedish Family

    There are too many of them, millions and millions. It would take 1-2 full generations and Ukraine simply will not have the time. Once the de-nationalization of Russians started after Maidan, there was a natural and predictable counter-reaction. That means there can no longer be a quiet, over-time, assimilation. The mistakes Kiev elites made immediately post-Maidan will haunt them for a long time. In life, ideas only matter so much, at the end it is all in how you do it, in implementation.

    It took 50-75 years in France to pacify the Alsatians, and it is still not completely done. French methods – in general, not just with the Alsatians – would not work today.
     
    Anatoly was on to something when he wrote that Maidanites are the true Sovoks -- ironically enough, as is nearly everything about Ukraine. This heavy-handedness is part of that. They just can't help themselves. Same with the Bandera worship. Not for them an adult, integrated sense of self; everything is black and white. Who was a saint? Who was a sinner? Who-Whom?

    As for the language question. What I feel is sometimes missing from these discussions is what a mortal threat Russian poses to Ukrainian. There is no way Ukrainian would survive in a free and open market, with Russian having 200+ million speakers and history on its side, and especially not given Ukrainian's status as a farmyard dialect (not a good sell in the Instagram age).

    Language laws are in order, then. But how strict? My offhand answer is that quotas and the like are fair up to a point, but if you have to near ban the other language, something is wrong with your carrot. Will they work? It would be odd if they didn't -- these are some seriously draconian laws -- but I somehow doubt their effectiveness now that ever more young people get everything they need from the internet. Even banning all Russian state television, let's say, isn't very helpful when it's already all over YouTube (and let's not forget that most media consumption is far more homely, things like following some dance instructor, or a food blogger, or a Russian trophy wife in LA). There is also, as ever, geography and history working against them. The place is pretty well boxed in by Russian speakers, and I expect cross-border travel to go up as Ukrainians grow less poor. The Crimea will also be a huge draw once things calm down a little. Many Kievans have fond memories of going there for youth camps or hikes in the mountains. The historical argument needs no explanation. I would merely stress that the personal always trumps the general. It matters that your great-grandma wrote her diary in Russian as it doesn't matter that some state functionary used it for writing out his arrest orders.

    …Maidanites are the true Sovoks

    They are something, all right. They have a desperate need to paint the reality as positively as they can, no doubts. The past must be validated – if it requires mindless optimism bordering on dementia, so be it. This is an interesting dynamic because it inadvertently means that they will not adjust their behaviour to better suit the circumstances. The Maidanistas are going down marching in torch parades and singing victory songs. It is actually better that way, who needs weepy regretful dreamers who suddenly want to make good and be friends? As I often say, this will be a lot of fun, farm dialects, rusty pipelines, wild escapes, and at the end that sullen look on empty faces as they realise that the gig is up. Priceless.

    But I wouldn’t dump on the Ukrainian language because of the politics surrounding it. I like regional and smaller languages, and a ‘farm dialect‘ suits me fine, if cattle understands what I am saying, that’s good…

    • Replies: @AP

    They have a desperate need to paint the reality as positively as they can
     
    No need for desperation. In the western and central Ukrainian lands life is as good as ever. Or better than ever. And those are the people celebrating. The ones in places where life has gotten worse, such as Kharkiv, are not celebrating.

    The past must be validated – if it requires mindless optimism bordering on dementia, so be it.
     
    This is rich, coming form someone who foolishly insists that the end of the Hapsburg monarchy was good for the peoples of central Europe.

    You are afraid to post facts, because they are never on your side. But unlike you, I do post facts. Here is what you lost:

    1. Loss of culture. Greatest cultural achievements occurred under Hapsburgs. Dvorak, Mucha, Kafka, Hasek – all creatures of the Hapsburg Empire, even if some of them may have not liked it. Post-1918 people did not produce as much culture. And there had been no real cultural repression under Hapsburgs, proven by the fact that mass literacy and schooling were obtained in native language in Czechia. Prague switched from German to Czech speaking city under Hapsburgs.

    2. Loss of life. After 1918 these lands became helpless before the Nazi and Soviet invaders. 100,000s were killed.

    3. Loss of prosperity. In 1913 Hungary has 85% of Austria’s GDP per capita PPP and had a higher GDP PPP per capita than Italy, Spain, and Finland. Czechoslovak lands had 65% of Austria’s wealth and were wealthier than Spain and Finland. In 1995 Czechoslovakia had only 50% of Austria’s per capita GDP PPP and Hungary was even worse. Italy had left Hungary far behind and Spain and surpassed both countries. In 2016 Czechoslovak lands had finally gotten back to their relative position vis a vis Austria in 1913. But were still behind Spain and Finland. Hungary meanwhile was much worse – in 2016 only 56% of Austria’s per capita GDP PPP, had fallen behind Finland, Italy and Spain and even Portugal. A disaster.

    ::::::::::::::

    In 2017 Ukraine's GDP PPP per capita was 34% that of Russia. In 2013 it was 33% that of Russia. So slight improvement, no real change. In 2017 Ukrane's per capita GDP PPP was 46% that of Belarus. In 2013 it was 47% that of Belarus. Slightly worse, no real change four years after Maidan. In contrast, it took your people about 100 years to crawl back to where they were in 1913 relative to Austria.

    But sneer at the Ukrainians. Projection is strong in you.
  134. @AP

    …millions and millions”, implying some huge number

    What number would that be? Maybe 5 million? What is ‘huge’ in your book?
     
    You wrote that there were millions and millions of Russians in Ukraine, too many to assimilate. Because you can't count, I pointed out to you that the number was about 5 million (probably lower) and that they are outnumbered by 6 times more Ukrainians amongst whom they live. That's a recipe for assimilation. Indeed, the Russians in western Ukraine (mostly they live in Lviv which is about 8% ethnic Russian) are already majority Ukrainian-speaking.

    Trump was a billionaire real estate developer with a TV show. Not the same thing as the funny-boy about to take over in Kiev.
     
    He got famous because of his show. "Billionaire" is questionable. Zelensky owns some media company and was on the board of one of the largest TV channels in the country.

    Also Zelensky gave a million dollars to the Ukrainian forces fighting in Donbas. I'm not sure why you think support for him means there is no consolidation of Ukrainian national feelings. It just means people are really sick of corruption and willing to take gamble based on this.

    But he is not, he is at 15% – Yanuk was at solid 20% when he was run out of town.
     
    Yanuk was one of 2 pro-Russian candidates with support. Poroshenko is one of 6 pro-Western candidates significant support.

    If Porky wins, nobody will buy it.
     
    I said he had a good (~40%) chance of winning months ago when the pro-Rusisans were gloating that he was int he single digits and had zero chance, and I was right. He has a good chance of getting into the second round. After that he has a good chance of winning. I don't predict he will win but I won't be surprised if he does.

    Slovaks worse than Mexican Americans 🙂

    Well, our girls are prettier.
     
    And worse at math.

    PISA mean score white Americans: 519
    PISA mean score Hispanic Americans: 465
    PISA mean score Slovakia: 463

    Your girls are indeed prettier, though not my cup of tea. I have nothing against peasants, being 1/4 peasant myself, but they are not my type.

    To summarise your post: the funny-boy Zelinsky is about as rich as Trump (good one), you doubled down on Porky’s win (I suspect on 4/1 you will be nowhere to be seen), and you read some PISA stuff for enlightment.

    I have nothing against peasants, being 1/4 peasant myself, but they are not my type.

    I can guess what the other 3/4 of you are and you can keep it. We are not interested. Our girls don’t date Poles, too poor and usually too scummy. We mostly see Poles coming in dusty 1950’s buses trying to sell some stuff at village markets. So the 5-footers with a life-size Jesus hanging from their neck is all you get. Enjoy, maybe you can do some calculus together.

    • Replies: @AP

    the funny-boy Zelinsky is about as rich as Trump (good one)
     
    I never claimed that but perhaps reading is as difficult as math for you :-)

    "I have nothing against peasants, being 1/4 peasant myself, but they are not my type."

    I can guess what the other 3/4 of you are and you can keep it. We are not interested. Our girls don’t date Poles, too poor and usually too scummy.
     
    As for "poor" - you are bad at math again. Average wage in Poland in 873 Euros and in Slovakia it's 877 Euros. Not a significant difference.

    Adjusted for cost of living, however, and Poles are a lot wealthier than Slovaks. Average wage in Poland with adjustment for cost of living is $2,140, in Slovakia only $1,573

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage

    So another case of you "exaggerating."

    You implied I was Polish? I have basically zero Polish ethnic descent (one person who died in the early 1800s), at least going back to the 17th century from where I have records. They are all Rus people, except for a Sudeten German officer who settled in Galicia in the 1840s with his Tyrolean wife.

    I watched some videos of Bratislava. Here is one:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nC-79IXTDmQ

    Looks like a smaller, wealthier version of Lviv. Girls are bigger, more poorly dressed, and simpler looking than Polish, Ukrainian or Russian girls. Still pretty, of course.
  135. AP says:
    @Beckow

    ...Maidanites are the true Sovoks
     
    They are something, all right. They have a desperate need to paint the reality as positively as they can, no doubts. The past must be validated - if it requires mindless optimism bordering on dementia, so be it. This is an interesting dynamic because it inadvertently means that they will not adjust their behaviour to better suit the circumstances. The Maidanistas are going down marching in torch parades and singing victory songs. It is actually better that way, who needs weepy regretful dreamers who suddenly want to make good and be friends? As I often say, this will be a lot of fun, farm dialects, rusty pipelines, wild escapes, and at the end that sullen look on empty faces as they realise that the gig is up. Priceless.

    But I wouldn't dump on the Ukrainian language because of the politics surrounding it. I like regional and smaller languages, and a 'farm dialect' suits me fine, if cattle understands what I am saying, that's good...

    They have a desperate need to paint the reality as positively as they can

    No need for desperation. In the western and central Ukrainian lands life is as good as ever. Or better than ever. And those are the people celebrating. The ones in places where life has gotten worse, such as Kharkiv, are not celebrating.

    The past must be validated – if it requires mindless optimism bordering on dementia, so be it.

    This is rich, coming form someone who foolishly insists that the end of the Hapsburg monarchy was good for the peoples of central Europe.

    You are afraid to post facts, because they are never on your side. But unlike you, I do post facts. Here is what you lost:

    1. Loss of culture. Greatest cultural achievements occurred under Hapsburgs. Dvorak, Mucha, Kafka, Hasek – all creatures of the Hapsburg Empire, even if some of them may have not liked it. Post-1918 people did not produce as much culture. And there had been no real cultural repression under Hapsburgs, proven by the fact that mass literacy and schooling were obtained in native language in Czechia. Prague switched from German to Czech speaking city under Hapsburgs.

    2. Loss of life. After 1918 these lands became helpless before the Nazi and Soviet invaders. 100,000s were killed.

    3. Loss of prosperity. In 1913 Hungary has 85% of Austria’s GDP per capita PPP and had a higher GDP PPP per capita than Italy, Spain, and Finland. Czechoslovak lands had 65% of Austria’s wealth and were wealthier than Spain and Finland. In 1995 Czechoslovakia had only 50% of Austria’s per capita GDP PPP and Hungary was even worse. Italy had left Hungary far behind and Spain and surpassed both countries. In 2016 Czechoslovak lands had finally gotten back to their relative position vis a vis Austria in 1913. But were still behind Spain and Finland. Hungary meanwhile was much worse – in 2016 only 56% of Austria’s per capita GDP PPP, had fallen behind Finland, Italy and Spain and even Portugal. A disaster.

    ::::::::::::::

    In 2017 Ukraine’s GDP PPP per capita was 34% that of Russia. In 2013 it was 33% that of Russia. So slight improvement, no real change. In 2017 Ukrane’s per capita GDP PPP was 46% that of Belarus. In 2013 it was 47% that of Belarus. Slightly worse, no real change four years after Maidan. In contrast, it took your people about 100 years to crawl back to where they were in 1913 relative to Austria.

    But sneer at the Ukrainians. Projection is strong in you.

    • Replies: @Adam

    1. Loss of culture
     
    The cultural level of all European cultures declined sharply after the 1st and especially 2nd world war. This is a product of civilizational trends, not rulers (communists being an obvious exception). The only nations whose greatest works are from the last 100 years are countries like Albania or Latvia who had no culture to begin with. Scandinavian countries still have monarchies and the cultural decline relative to where they were in 1910 is absolutely astounding.

    2. Loss of life. After 1918 these lands became helpless before the Nazi and Soviet invaders. 100,000s were killed.
     
    Austria-Hungary would not likely offer much more resistance to the Germans or Soviets than Poland, i.e none at all. Moreover, Germany could easily exploit ethnic tensions to undermine the state. Do you think Croats, Hungarians, or Romanians would seriously fight a hopeless war when Hitler would offer them independent states?

    3. Loss of prosperity.
     
    Austria did not fall under communism and the other nations did. That's the only relevant factor here. A Hasburg empire that made it to WWII would probably get conquered by Stalin too anyway.

    Projection is strong in you
     
    Says the Ukrainian who called a Slovaks ignorant peasants. I hope you were being ironic.
    , @Thorfinnsson
    In fairness to Beckow #3 is down to communism, not some inevitable consequence of the collapse of Austria-Hungary. Small countries in Europe that did not fall to communism all experienced a prosperous 20th century. Even Greece and Portugal (both some of the fastest growing countries in the world in the postwar era).

    I realize your counterpoint to that is that the collapse of Austria-Hungary resulted in a series of statelets unable to resist foreign aggression, but let's say the whites had won the Russian Civil War or the Nazis had won WW2. Prosperity could've reigned in the various Hapsburg successor nation-states (at least the ones not Germanized or Russified) which fell to communism in OTL.
  136. @AP

    Americans elected a reality TV star. And this was the best option. And the American national idea is strong.

    This seems a bit of a dubious endorsement.
     
    Americans elected a guy with a nationalist image and message. Compare to western Europe.

    You got Beckov going. I haven’t seen him that active before. Keep it up so we learn even more about him, “for out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.”

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    He's an interesting 'Slovakian' commenter. Ukrainian issues seem to be at the top of the list for this 'Slovak' and don't seem to afford him any peace. If he's not careful, he might find a Banderite camped out right underneath his bed. I mean they're everywhere in Slovakia and might soon take over the country! :-)

    Nothing outlasts Beckow, he just keeps on going!

    https://youtu.be/C2LfH7hG5UE

  137. AP says:
    @Beckow
    To summarise your post: the funny-boy Zelinsky is about as rich as Trump (good one), you doubled down on Porky's win (I suspect on 4/1 you will be nowhere to be seen), and you read some PISA stuff for enlightment.

    I have nothing against peasants, being 1/4 peasant myself, but they are not my type.
     
    I can guess what the other 3/4 of you are and you can keep it. We are not interested. Our girls don't date Poles, too poor and usually too scummy. We mostly see Poles coming in dusty 1950's buses trying to sell some stuff at village markets. So the 5-footers with a life-size Jesus hanging from their neck is all you get. Enjoy, maybe you can do some calculus together.

    the funny-boy Zelinsky is about as rich as Trump (good one)

    I never claimed that but perhaps reading is as difficult as math for you 🙂

    “I have nothing against peasants, being 1/4 peasant myself, but they are not my type.”

    I can guess what the other 3/4 of you are and you can keep it. We are not interested. Our girls don’t date Poles, too poor and usually too scummy.

    As for “poor” – you are bad at math again. Average wage in Poland in 873 Euros and in Slovakia it’s 877 Euros. Not a significant difference.

    Adjusted for cost of living, however, and Poles are a lot wealthier than Slovaks. Average wage in Poland with adjustment for cost of living is $2,140, in Slovakia only $1,573

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage

    So another case of you “exaggerating.”

    You implied I was Polish? I have basically zero Polish ethnic descent (one person who died in the early 1800s), at least going back to the 17th century from where I have records. They are all Rus people, except for a Sudeten German officer who settled in Galicia in the 1840s with his Tyrolean wife.

    I watched some videos of Bratislava. Here is one:

    Looks like a smaller, wealthier version of Lviv. Girls are bigger, more poorly dressed, and simpler looking than Polish, Ukrainian or Russian girls. Still pretty, of course.

    • Replies: @utu
    Did you hear about this fuck up by the Slovak nationalists?

    Kotlebovci si chceli uctiť národovcov výstupom na Kriváň, vyliezli však na nesprávny vrch
    http://www.tvnoviny.sk/domace/1876546_kotlebovci-si-chceli-uctit-narodovcov-vystupom-na-krivan-vyliezli-vsak-na-nespravny-vrch
    , @Beckow
    You are really scraping the bottom '

    simpler looking?
     
    ' What is that? And you watch random tourist videos to actually form opinions? Pathetic. It is like me driving around some random square in Paris for 4 minutes and then trying to claim that I know Parisians. Stick with the chicas and their algorithmic prowess, they might even seem taller than the usual 5 feet if you twist you neck enough.

    Look, nobody from Czecho-Slovakia is trying to migrate to Lviv, or Ukraine, absolutely nobody. On the other hand our service jobs are overrun by migrants from Ukraine, they wash our dishes, dig our ditches, paint our signs, and provide just about any service that can be monetised. None that I have talked to has any desire to go back to Lviv, Kiev, Odessa, wherever in Ukraine. My views faithfully reflect what we hear from these Ukrainian migrants. They don't like Porky, most prefer to speak Russian, think that Maidan was stolen by the oligarchs, and the war is pointless.

    Maybe they are opportunistic and not representative - and back home in Ukraine there is this solid block of prosperous, nationalistic, well-dressed proud Ukrainians. But is it really there? Isn't your endlessly positive description just a desperate attempt not to be found wrong? I believe what I see and what people tell us. In Prague hotels ladies with PhDs from Ukraine work as 'dezhurneie', quite often surrounded by well-off tourists from Russia who awkwardly try to pretend not to see them. Because it is sad - the human collapse for so many from Ukraine - east and west - that we observe is very sad.

    Regarding your 'Rus' ancestry. What is it exactly, are you what we call a 'Rusin'?

  138. @Beckow

    ...millions and millions”, implying some huge number
     
    What number would that be? Maybe 5 million? What is 'huge' in your book?

    Trump was a billionaire real estate developer with a TV show. Not the same thing as the funny-boy about to take over in Kiev. If you cannot even distinguish an obvious 'damn them all' protest vote, maybe math is not your only problem.

    The '40 candidates' mantra you keep on shouting about is silly: most have 0.1% support, so they don't matter. And if Porky was any good, the number of his opponents wouldn't matter. But he is not, he is at 15% - Yanuk was at solid 20% when he was run out of town. If Porky wins, nobody will buy it. Even for the Ukrainian democracy that would be a bridge too far. No Porky will lose and quietly slip out of Kiev after he comes in 3rd (or 4th) in the first round. That's why they have the 2-week period in between, he needs time to pack. He will be out of there faster than an Irishman when potato harvest fails.


    Slovaks worse than Mexican Americans 🙂
     
    Well, our girls are prettier. Take that. Next time some 5 foot tall, 300 pound, sh.t-color, mishapen Cholita is teaching you math, remember that there are still real girls out there...and they don't take PISA tests (whatever that is)...

    What number would that be? Maybe 5 million? What is ‘huge’ in your book?

    My opinion on this crucial issue: if you said ‘millions’ once, then that would imply a figure of up to or around about 5 million. ‘Millions and millions’ to me suggests something like 10-20 million; over 10 anyway.

    • Agree: AP
    • Replies: @Beckow
    Once you are 10 to 20 million, proper usage would be to say 'tens of millions'. To bring it down to earth - anyone thinking that a sizeable group belonging to a large nations can be easily assimilated is fooling himself. Russians in Ukraine are still by any standards 'sizeable', there are millions left. They also have a very large nation right across the border in Russia - it is simply not a setup for mass assimilation.

    That leaves aside the crucial point that desiring mass assimilation (in effect cultural extinction) of a minority is quite sick. And not very European. These guys like AP are weird and confused.
  139. @AP

    the funny-boy Zelinsky is about as rich as Trump (good one)
     
    I never claimed that but perhaps reading is as difficult as math for you :-)

    "I have nothing against peasants, being 1/4 peasant myself, but they are not my type."

    I can guess what the other 3/4 of you are and you can keep it. We are not interested. Our girls don’t date Poles, too poor and usually too scummy.
     
    As for "poor" - you are bad at math again. Average wage in Poland in 873 Euros and in Slovakia it's 877 Euros. Not a significant difference.

    Adjusted for cost of living, however, and Poles are a lot wealthier than Slovaks. Average wage in Poland with adjustment for cost of living is $2,140, in Slovakia only $1,573

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage

    So another case of you "exaggerating."

    You implied I was Polish? I have basically zero Polish ethnic descent (one person who died in the early 1800s), at least going back to the 17th century from where I have records. They are all Rus people, except for a Sudeten German officer who settled in Galicia in the 1840s with his Tyrolean wife.

    I watched some videos of Bratislava. Here is one:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nC-79IXTDmQ

    Looks like a smaller, wealthier version of Lviv. Girls are bigger, more poorly dressed, and simpler looking than Polish, Ukrainian or Russian girls. Still pretty, of course.

    Did you hear about this fuck up by the Slovak nationalists?

    Kotlebovci si chceli uctiť národovcov výstupom na Kriváň, vyliezli však na nesprávny vrch
    http://www.tvnoviny.sk/domace/1876546_kotlebovci-si-chceli-uctit-narodovcov-vystupom-na-krivan-vyliezli-vsak-na-nespravny-vrch

  140. @AP

    They have a desperate need to paint the reality as positively as they can
     
    No need for desperation. In the western and central Ukrainian lands life is as good as ever. Or better than ever. And those are the people celebrating. The ones in places where life has gotten worse, such as Kharkiv, are not celebrating.

    The past must be validated – if it requires mindless optimism bordering on dementia, so be it.
     
    This is rich, coming form someone who foolishly insists that the end of the Hapsburg monarchy was good for the peoples of central Europe.

    You are afraid to post facts, because they are never on your side. But unlike you, I do post facts. Here is what you lost:

    1. Loss of culture. Greatest cultural achievements occurred under Hapsburgs. Dvorak, Mucha, Kafka, Hasek – all creatures of the Hapsburg Empire, even if some of them may have not liked it. Post-1918 people did not produce as much culture. And there had been no real cultural repression under Hapsburgs, proven by the fact that mass literacy and schooling were obtained in native language in Czechia. Prague switched from German to Czech speaking city under Hapsburgs.

    2. Loss of life. After 1918 these lands became helpless before the Nazi and Soviet invaders. 100,000s were killed.

    3. Loss of prosperity. In 1913 Hungary has 85% of Austria’s GDP per capita PPP and had a higher GDP PPP per capita than Italy, Spain, and Finland. Czechoslovak lands had 65% of Austria’s wealth and were wealthier than Spain and Finland. In 1995 Czechoslovakia had only 50% of Austria’s per capita GDP PPP and Hungary was even worse. Italy had left Hungary far behind and Spain and surpassed both countries. In 2016 Czechoslovak lands had finally gotten back to their relative position vis a vis Austria in 1913. But were still behind Spain and Finland. Hungary meanwhile was much worse – in 2016 only 56% of Austria’s per capita GDP PPP, had fallen behind Finland, Italy and Spain and even Portugal. A disaster.

    ::::::::::::::

    In 2017 Ukraine's GDP PPP per capita was 34% that of Russia. In 2013 it was 33% that of Russia. So slight improvement, no real change. In 2017 Ukrane's per capita GDP PPP was 46% that of Belarus. In 2013 it was 47% that of Belarus. Slightly worse, no real change four years after Maidan. In contrast, it took your people about 100 years to crawl back to where they were in 1913 relative to Austria.

    But sneer at the Ukrainians. Projection is strong in you.

    1. Loss of culture

    The cultural level of all European cultures declined sharply after the 1st and especially 2nd world war. This is a product of civilizational trends, not rulers (communists being an obvious exception). The only nations whose greatest works are from the last 100 years are countries like Albania or Latvia who had no culture to begin with. Scandinavian countries still have monarchies and the cultural decline relative to where they were in 1910 is absolutely astounding.

    2. Loss of life. After 1918 these lands became helpless before the Nazi and Soviet invaders. 100,000s were killed.

    Austria-Hungary would not likely offer much more resistance to the Germans or Soviets than Poland, i.e none at all. Moreover, Germany could easily exploit ethnic tensions to undermine the state. Do you think Croats, Hungarians, or Romanians would seriously fight a hopeless war when Hitler would offer them independent states?

    3. Loss of prosperity.

    Austria did not fall under communism and the other nations did. That’s the only relevant factor here. A Hasburg empire that made it to WWII would probably get conquered by Stalin too anyway.

    Projection is strong in you

    Says the Ukrainian who called a Slovaks ignorant peasants. I hope you were being ironic.

    • Replies: @E

    This is a product of civilizational trends, not rulers (communists being an obvious exception).
     
    What sort of exception? The level of culture in the Soviet Union stayed consistently high up to the end (I'd say the high point was just before the collapse, even, which is a common trend in societal collapses), then declined to lows never seen before in the 1990s, as most of the talented old masters couldn't adapt and the newly-rich financed degenerate cheap trash.

    The level of culture in the West declined because the CIA covertly funded Modern Art as a weapon against the more traditional art of the Eastern Bloc:
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/modern-art-was-cia-weapon-1578808.html

    It's mostly better now than it was back then (the revival of Russian folklore is especially promising, even though it now often has more a martial and religious bent than it did before), but in some cases it has gotten worse. In some cases, the talented old artists kept making great art funded by miserly government programs that didn't get removed due to simple inertia, and only in the recent decade have they finally died out, the programs ended, and "patriotic on the outside and American on the inside" artistic garbage crept in (like those big budget special effects-heavy war films the state keeps funding).

    , @AP

    The cultural level of all European cultures declined sharply after the 1st and especially 2nd world war. This is a product of civilizational trends, not rulers
     
    All of Europe lost its monarchies (real ones, who wielded real power and set the societal tone) after World War I. Czechs overthrew the monarchy, and their culture declined.

    Austria-Hungary would not likely offer much more resistance to the Germans or Soviets than Poland, i.e none at all.
     
    Who knows if they would have invaded such a large state, rather than cut a deal with it. It may have played a role for Germany that Italy did. Italy's fate was much kinder in World War II than was that of the little useless statelets. The little states were helpless before the onslaught. Nazis and Soviets did with them what they wished.

    Loss of prosperity.

    Austria did not fall under communism and the other nations did. That’s the only relevant factor here.
     
    See above. Falling under communism was another result of the breakup of A-H.

    Projection is strong in you

    Says the Ukrainian who called a Slovaks ignorant peasants.
     
    They are a peasant nation, like Ukrainians- more so, even. Lviv is about twice the size of their capital, despite the overall Galician population being smaller than that of Slovakia. Historically, Lviv (population 230,000 in 1910) was always about 18% Ukrainian. Bratislava (population 78,000 in 1910) was about 15% Slovak.

    I never called them ignorant. But they are deluded if they celebrate the end of the Hapsburgs. It was a catastrophe for the peoples of central Europe. Much more catastrophic than Maidan was for Ukraine. This is where Beckow's projection comes in. His own people engaged in an emotional hysterical nationalist overthrow whose negative effects lasted for about a century. He is proud of it. He insists it wasn't a mistake. But western and central Ukrainian nationalists took the reigns of their country from the neo-Sovoks and he became quite bitter, considers it a mistake, hysteria, etc. Yet in 4 short years the western and central Ukrainians have recovered and the country as a whole is set to be back to where it has been in 2013, sometime in 2019. In contrast Czech republic recovered its position vis a vis Austria in the 21st century, and Hungary never came close (in 1913 it had 85% if Austria's GDP PPP per capita, today it is 56%).

    He projects in other ways. As we have seen, he has a pattern of exaggeration and dishonesty, yet accuses others of these things. But his fixation on the "mistake" of Maidan is the most funny one.
    , @Mr. XYZ

    Austria-Hungary would not likely offer much more resistance to the Germans or Soviets than Poland, i.e none at all. Moreover, Germany could easily exploit ethnic tensions to undermine the state. Do you think Croats, Hungarians, or Romanians would seriously fight a hopeless war when Hitler would offer them independent states?
     
    Austria-Hungary was probably more industrialized than Poland was, so it would have been a harder fight. However, ultimately you are probably correct that a surviving Austria-Hungary would have had no chance against an alliance of Germany, Poland, the Soviet Union, Romania, Serbia, and possibly Italy as well. This would be especially true if Britain and France would sit on their butts and not do anything while Austria-Hungary was being dismembered.
  141. @AP

    the funny-boy Zelinsky is about as rich as Trump (good one)
     
    I never claimed that but perhaps reading is as difficult as math for you :-)

    "I have nothing against peasants, being 1/4 peasant myself, but they are not my type."

    I can guess what the other 3/4 of you are and you can keep it. We are not interested. Our girls don’t date Poles, too poor and usually too scummy.
     
    As for "poor" - you are bad at math again. Average wage in Poland in 873 Euros and in Slovakia it's 877 Euros. Not a significant difference.

    Adjusted for cost of living, however, and Poles are a lot wealthier than Slovaks. Average wage in Poland with adjustment for cost of living is $2,140, in Slovakia only $1,573

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage

    So another case of you "exaggerating."

    You implied I was Polish? I have basically zero Polish ethnic descent (one person who died in the early 1800s), at least going back to the 17th century from where I have records. They are all Rus people, except for a Sudeten German officer who settled in Galicia in the 1840s with his Tyrolean wife.

    I watched some videos of Bratislava. Here is one:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nC-79IXTDmQ

    Looks like a smaller, wealthier version of Lviv. Girls are bigger, more poorly dressed, and simpler looking than Polish, Ukrainian or Russian girls. Still pretty, of course.

    You are really scraping the bottom ‘

    simpler looking?

    ‘ What is that? And you watch random tourist videos to actually form opinions? Pathetic. It is like me driving around some random square in Paris for 4 minutes and then trying to claim that I know Parisians. Stick with the chicas and their algorithmic prowess, they might even seem taller than the usual 5 feet if you twist you neck enough.

    Look, nobody from Czecho-Slovakia is trying to migrate to Lviv, or Ukraine, absolutely nobody. On the other hand our service jobs are overrun by migrants from Ukraine, they wash our dishes, dig our ditches, paint our signs, and provide just about any service that can be monetised. None that I have talked to has any desire to go back to Lviv, Kiev, Odessa, wherever in Ukraine. My views faithfully reflect what we hear from these Ukrainian migrants. They don’t like Porky, most prefer to speak Russian, think that Maidan was stolen by the oligarchs, and the war is pointless.

    Maybe they are opportunistic and not representative – and back home in Ukraine there is this solid block of prosperous, nationalistic, well-dressed proud Ukrainians. But is it really there? Isn’t your endlessly positive description just a desperate attempt not to be found wrong? I believe what I see and what people tell us. In Prague hotels ladies with PhDs from Ukraine work as ‘dezhurneie’, quite often surrounded by well-off tourists from Russia who awkwardly try to pretend not to see them. Because it is sad – the human collapse for so many from Ukraine – east and west – that we observe is very sad.

    Regarding your ‘Rus’ ancestry. What is it exactly, are you what we call a ‘Rusin’?

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack

    Stick with the chicas and their algorithmic prowess, they might even seem taller than the usual 5 feet if you twist you neck enough.
     
    Your Ukrainaphobic venom is clouding your thinking, tovarishch - the video clip that AP presented of Bratislava is quite complementary. Your shift must soon be over, have a cold one and call it a day.
    , @Epigon

    Regarding your ‘Rus’ ancestry. What is it exactly, are you what we call a ‘Rusin’?
     
    He is making a distinction between present-day Russians and medieval Russians, to whom he claims descent.
    Even though ever since the Mongol invasion and devastation of Rus'/Rusia/Russia/Rhos/Rossiya the population fled and moved to Muscovy, from serfs and peasants to Church hieararchs, townsfolk and nobility.
    Significant areas of present-day Ukraine were practically uninhabited by Slavs, being relegated to Wild Fields and threatened by hordes and slavers. Similarily, people fled persecution by Jesuits/Catholic rulers of Commonwealth, and abuse by magnates.

    In short, he is spreading the myth of Tatar and Mongol admixture in Russians of Russian Federation.
    , @AP
    So, once again no data from you - when you try to mention numbers you can't help but exaggerate, even others notice. Only personal anecdotes. America is full of workers from Poland (they do my home reno, high skilled and honest workers) but so what? Polish economy is doing great, and as we have seen wages are much higher in Poland than in Slovakia when adjusted for cost of living.

    Isn’t your endlessly positive description just a desperate attempt not to be found wrong?
     
    Now you exaggerate again. I do not write "endlessly positive" things. I only write realistic things, supported by evidence. You write fake things and exaggerations. Ukraine is indeed poorer than all of its neighbors other than Moldova. But it has recovered from 2014 and the western and central parts are doing better than in 2014. Ukraine is actually doing marginally better relative to Russia than it was in 2013 (from 33% of Russia's per capita GDP PPP in 2013 to 34% in 2017). But despite its recovery people will naturally take the opportunity to work in some place where waged are 3x higher.

    You, OTOH, lie about some sort of ongoing collapse.

    If the people you meet speak mostly Russian it means they are probably not from western Ukraine but form the east where the economy is worse.
  142. @silviosilver

    What number would that be? Maybe 5 million? What is ‘huge’ in your book?
     
    My opinion on this crucial issue: if you said 'millions' once, then that would imply a figure of up to or around about 5 million. 'Millions and millions' to me suggests something like 10-20 million; over 10 anyway.

    Once you are 10 to 20 million, proper usage would be to say ‘tens of millions’. To bring it down to earth – anyone thinking that a sizeable group belonging to a large nations can be easily assimilated is fooling himself. Russians in Ukraine are still by any standards ‘sizeable’, there are millions left. They also have a very large nation right across the border in Russia – it is simply not a setup for mass assimilation.

    That leaves aside the crucial point that desiring mass assimilation (in effect cultural extinction) of a minority is quite sick. And not very European. These guys like AP are weird and confused.

  143. @AP

    Americans elected a reality TV star. And this was the best option. And the American national idea is strong.

    This seems a bit of a dubious endorsement.
     
    Americans elected a guy with a nationalist image and message. Compare to western Europe.

    Americans elected a guy with a nationalist image and message. Compare to western Europe.

    His average approval ratings are fluctuating between 35-45% (for comparison he won 46.1% votes in the 2016 presidential election) and among Republicans his approval rates are generally in the high 80s.

    As of March 2019 they are 90% among Republicans, 1 point higher than when he started in January 2017.

    Is there a difference between “MAGA” and “MIGA”?
    And if there isn’t, what does this say about American “capitalist state patriotism”?

    So, yes, you may, in a matter of interpretation, be correct when you state that the “American national idea is strong”, but then I wouldn’t consider it a complementary statement.

    https://news.gallup.com/poll/203198/presidential-approval-ratings-donald-trump.aspx

    • Replies: @Adam
    America is a marketplace, a military, and a legal sytstem - not a nation. Anyone who still has loyalty to this system beyond their immediate self interest is a fool.
    , @AP

    His average approval ratings are fluctuating between 35-45% (for comparison he won 46.1% votes in the 2016 presidential election)
     
    Which would be over 50% among America's titular "nationality."

    This is much better performance than any nationalists do in Western Europe.
  144. @Hyperborean

    Americans elected a guy with a nationalist image and message. Compare to western Europe.
     
    His average approval ratings are fluctuating between 35-45% (for comparison he won 46.1% votes in the 2016 presidential election) and among Republicans his approval rates are generally in the high 80s.

    As of March 2019 they are 90% among Republicans, 1 point higher than when he started in January 2017.

    Is there a difference between "MAGA" and "MIGA"?
    And if there isn't, what does this say about American "capitalist state patriotism"?

    So, yes, you may, in a matter of interpretation, be correct when you state that the "American national idea is strong", but then I wouldn't consider it a complementary statement.

    https://news.gallup.com/poll/203198/presidential-approval-ratings-donald-trump.aspx

    America is a marketplace, a military, and a legal sytstem – not a nation. Anyone who still has loyalty to this system beyond their immediate self interest is a fool.

    • Replies: @AP
    America is all Americans have. It is correct for them to be patriots.
    , @Thorfinnsson
    There's a distinction between the American nation and the US Empire.

    Americans basically being most or nearly all white Christians born within the United States. Or more restrictively those with substantive roots in the country as of 1776 (which would be half the white population).

    The US Empire was created by Americans but they are now one of many factions who compete for its control. And Americans are themselves disorganized and splintered into smaller factions as a result of effective propaganda that denies them their identity and birthright.

    Quite similar to the Soviet Union in many respects, though the USSR was less a Russian creation than the US Empire was an American one. No clean break with America's national past either.
  145. @AP

    …millions and millions”, implying some huge number

    What number would that be? Maybe 5 million? What is ‘huge’ in your book?
     
    You wrote that there were millions and millions of Russians in Ukraine, too many to assimilate. Because you can't count, I pointed out to you that the number was about 5 million (probably lower) and that they are outnumbered by 6 times more Ukrainians amongst whom they live. That's a recipe for assimilation. Indeed, the Russians in western Ukraine (mostly they live in Lviv which is about 8% ethnic Russian) are already majority Ukrainian-speaking.

    Trump was a billionaire real estate developer with a TV show. Not the same thing as the funny-boy about to take over in Kiev.
     
    He got famous because of his show. "Billionaire" is questionable. Zelensky owns some media company and was on the board of one of the largest TV channels in the country.

    Also Zelensky gave a million dollars to the Ukrainian forces fighting in Donbas. I'm not sure why you think support for him means there is no consolidation of Ukrainian national feelings. It just means people are really sick of corruption and willing to take gamble based on this.

    But he is not, he is at 15% – Yanuk was at solid 20% when he was run out of town.
     
    Yanuk was one of 2 pro-Russian candidates with support. Poroshenko is one of 6 pro-Western candidates significant support.

    If Porky wins, nobody will buy it.
     
    I said he had a good (~40%) chance of winning months ago when the pro-Rusisans were gloating that he was int he single digits and had zero chance, and I was right. He has a good chance of getting into the second round. After that he has a good chance of winning. I don't predict he will win but I won't be surprised if he does.

    Slovaks worse than Mexican Americans 🙂

    Well, our girls are prettier.
     
    And worse at math.

    PISA mean score white Americans: 519
    PISA mean score Hispanic Americans: 465
    PISA mean score Slovakia: 463

    Your girls are indeed prettier, though not my cup of tea. I have nothing against peasants, being 1/4 peasant myself, but they are not my type.

    Your girls are indeed prettier

    That’s a pretty strong endorsement AP. I’m no expert about Slovak women, but Ukrainian women have been celebrated as some of the most beautiful on the planet since time immemorial. You must not have been to Kyiv or Lviv lately AP, ones head just keeps rotating from left to right:

    • Replies: @Adam
    Learn to read, boomer. He was talking about Mexicans.
    , @Epigon
    2016 Miss Ukraine pageant really had a thing for non-Slavic phenotype. Higher-class Turkish women of Istanbul was my first thought - nothing like Ukrainians I have met.
    , @aedib
    Are in Ukraine now an implicit “politically correct law” forcing to choose girls from ethnic minorities in beauty contests? I also would have bet the dark haired girls were Aegean Turks, Greeks or Sicilians (i.e. east Mediterranean phenotype). They are not representative of the Slavic phenotype at all.
  146. @Mr. Hack

    Your girls are indeed prettier
     
    That's a pretty strong endorsement AP. I'm no expert about Slovak women, but Ukrainian women have been celebrated as some of the most beautiful on the planet since time immemorial. You must not have been to Kyiv or Lviv lately AP, ones head just keeps rotating from left to right:

    https://ukrainiandatingblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/russian-vs-ukrainian-women.jpg

    https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/1600/1*Idx-aGnzJO6_FVes8934Ng.jpeg

    Learn to read, boomer. He was talking about Mexicans.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    Sorry Chief, but Ukrainian women are hotter than Mexican women too! :-)
  147. @Denis

    But let me remind you that Russia, at least formally, defines itself as being a federative state where separate nationalities have constitutional rights enshrined to develop and protect minority language rights within its constituent republics, like the Republic of Tartastan.
     
    Of course, but so what? This system is a legacy of Soviet times, and is partially reflective of the heavy over-representation that national minorities had in the early Soviet government, which feared Russian nationalism as much as anything else. If some policies of the federal system (such as promoting languages other than Russian) have become obstacles to the overall goal of achieving national unity and stability, then they should be circumvented. With that in mind, this is actually a rather mild change in policy, as they have not banned the teaching of the Tatar language, nor even restricted it; they have merely made it non-obligatory.

    Ukraine, having even a more autonomous stature within the Soviet Union was a separate state and therefore never needed (at least theoretically) outside direction in setting its own internal state policies – certainly not after 1991 since it left the orbit of the Soviet Union. BTW, Ukraine has defined itself as a unitary state, not a federative one.
     
    Ukraine is a perfect example of the long-term negative consequences of promoting regional languages and cultures. If the Soviet government had taken early steps to mandate that all Ukrainians had at least some years of education completely in Russian, it is highly doubtful that Ukrainian national sentiment would be nearly as widespread as today. It is good that Russia is making moves to ensure that it does not inadvertently create any more Ukraines.

    Thank you for your response! :)

    Ukrainians have been quite adept at learning the Russian language since Czarist times and most Ukrainians are fluent in it. Many Ukrainians, especially in the South and East are more comfortable communicating in Russian, however, this doesn’t diminish their pro-Ukrainian political views.

  148. @Adam
    Learn to read, boomer. He was talking about Mexicans.

    Sorry Chief, but Ukrainian women are hotter than Mexican women too! 🙂

    • Replies: @Hyperborean

    Sorry Chief, but Ukrainian women are hotter than Mexican women too! 🙂
     
    They were saying Slovak girls are more attractive than Mexican ones, the one who mentioned Ukrainians is you.
  149. @Mr. Hack
    Sorry Chief, but Ukrainian women are hotter than Mexican women too! :-)

    Sorry Chief, but Ukrainian women are hotter than Mexican women too! 🙂

    They were saying Slovak girls are more attractive than Mexican ones, the one who mentioned Ukrainians is you.

    • Agree: Mr. Hack
  150. @Beckow
    You are really scraping the bottom '

    simpler looking?
     
    ' What is that? And you watch random tourist videos to actually form opinions? Pathetic. It is like me driving around some random square in Paris for 4 minutes and then trying to claim that I know Parisians. Stick with the chicas and their algorithmic prowess, they might even seem taller than the usual 5 feet if you twist you neck enough.

    Look, nobody from Czecho-Slovakia is trying to migrate to Lviv, or Ukraine, absolutely nobody. On the other hand our service jobs are overrun by migrants from Ukraine, they wash our dishes, dig our ditches, paint our signs, and provide just about any service that can be monetised. None that I have talked to has any desire to go back to Lviv, Kiev, Odessa, wherever in Ukraine. My views faithfully reflect what we hear from these Ukrainian migrants. They don't like Porky, most prefer to speak Russian, think that Maidan was stolen by the oligarchs, and the war is pointless.

    Maybe they are opportunistic and not representative - and back home in Ukraine there is this solid block of prosperous, nationalistic, well-dressed proud Ukrainians. But is it really there? Isn't your endlessly positive description just a desperate attempt not to be found wrong? I believe what I see and what people tell us. In Prague hotels ladies with PhDs from Ukraine work as 'dezhurneie', quite often surrounded by well-off tourists from Russia who awkwardly try to pretend not to see them. Because it is sad - the human collapse for so many from Ukraine - east and west - that we observe is very sad.

    Regarding your 'Rus' ancestry. What is it exactly, are you what we call a 'Rusin'?

    Stick with the chicas and their algorithmic prowess, they might even seem taller than the usual 5 feet if you twist you neck enough.

    Your Ukrainaphobic venom is clouding your thinking, tovarishch – the video clip that AP presented of Bratislava is quite complementary. Your shift must soon be over, have a cold one and call it a day.

  151. @utu
    You got Beckov going. I haven't seen him that active before. Keep it up so we learn even more about him, "for out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks."

    He’s an interesting ‘Slovakian’ commenter. Ukrainian issues seem to be at the top of the list for this ‘Slovak’ and don’t seem to afford him any peace. If he’s not careful, he might find a Banderite camped out right underneath his bed. I mean they’re everywhere in Slovakia and might soon take over the country! 🙂

    Nothing outlasts Beckow, he just keeps on going!

    • Replies: @utu
    I think he is an unreformed commie who is still grieving the death of the USSR. He hates Ukies and Polacks whom he blames for the lack of reverence for the USSR his object of undying love and its subsequent demise. Perhaps he was running a business making the banners “Se Sovětským svazem na věčné časy a nikdy jinak!” in Czechoslovakia (after 1968 they wre omnipresent).
  152. @Swedish Family

    There are too many of them, millions and millions. It would take 1-2 full generations and Ukraine simply will not have the time. Once the de-nationalization of Russians started after Maidan, there was a natural and predictable counter-reaction. That means there can no longer be a quiet, over-time, assimilation. The mistakes Kiev elites made immediately post-Maidan will haunt them for a long time. In life, ideas only matter so much, at the end it is all in how you do it, in implementation.

    It took 50-75 years in France to pacify the Alsatians, and it is still not completely done. French methods – in general, not just with the Alsatians – would not work today.
     
    Anatoly was on to something when he wrote that Maidanites are the true Sovoks -- ironically enough, as is nearly everything about Ukraine. This heavy-handedness is part of that. They just can't help themselves. Same with the Bandera worship. Not for them an adult, integrated sense of self; everything is black and white. Who was a saint? Who was a sinner? Who-Whom?

    As for the language question. What I feel is sometimes missing from these discussions is what a mortal threat Russian poses to Ukrainian. There is no way Ukrainian would survive in a free and open market, with Russian having 200+ million speakers and history on its side, and especially not given Ukrainian's status as a farmyard dialect (not a good sell in the Instagram age).

    Language laws are in order, then. But how strict? My offhand answer is that quotas and the like are fair up to a point, but if you have to near ban the other language, something is wrong with your carrot. Will they work? It would be odd if they didn't -- these are some seriously draconian laws -- but I somehow doubt their effectiveness now that ever more young people get everything they need from the internet. Even banning all Russian state television, let's say, isn't very helpful when it's already all over YouTube (and let's not forget that most media consumption is far more homely, things like following some dance instructor, or a food blogger, or a Russian trophy wife in LA). There is also, as ever, geography and history working against them. The place is pretty well boxed in by Russian speakers, and I expect cross-border travel to go up as Ukrainians grow less poor. The Crimea will also be a huge draw once things calm down a little. Many Kievans have fond memories of going there for youth camps or hikes in the mountains. The historical argument needs no explanation. I would merely stress that the personal always trumps the general. It matters that your great-grandma wrote her diary in Russian as it doesn't matter that some state functionary used it for writing out his arrest orders.

    Language laws are in order, then. But how strict?

    I hope they are as strict as possible. It will make Ukraine look bad internationally and invite massive corruption.

  153. @Mr. Hack
    He's an interesting 'Slovakian' commenter. Ukrainian issues seem to be at the top of the list for this 'Slovak' and don't seem to afford him any peace. If he's not careful, he might find a Banderite camped out right underneath his bed. I mean they're everywhere in Slovakia and might soon take over the country! :-)

    Nothing outlasts Beckow, he just keeps on going!

    https://youtu.be/C2LfH7hG5UE

    I think he is an unreformed commie who is still grieving the death of the USSR. He hates Ukies and Polacks whom he blames for the lack of reverence for the USSR his object of undying love and its subsequent demise. Perhaps he was running a business making the banners “Se Sovětským svazem na věčné časy a nikdy jinak!” in Czechoslovakia (after 1968 they wre omnipresent).

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    I think utu is just sad that his ancestors were kicked out of the Sudetenland which explains all the unironic Naziphilia and obsessive desire to have Russia sacrifice itself to fight global Zionism.
    , @AP
    This is also my impression.
  154. E says:
    @Adam

    1. Loss of culture
     
    The cultural level of all European cultures declined sharply after the 1st and especially 2nd world war. This is a product of civilizational trends, not rulers (communists being an obvious exception). The only nations whose greatest works are from the last 100 years are countries like Albania or Latvia who had no culture to begin with. Scandinavian countries still have monarchies and the cultural decline relative to where they were in 1910 is absolutely astounding.

    2. Loss of life. After 1918 these lands became helpless before the Nazi and Soviet invaders. 100,000s were killed.
     
    Austria-Hungary would not likely offer much more resistance to the Germans or Soviets than Poland, i.e none at all. Moreover, Germany could easily exploit ethnic tensions to undermine the state. Do you think Croats, Hungarians, or Romanians would seriously fight a hopeless war when Hitler would offer them independent states?

    3. Loss of prosperity.
     
    Austria did not fall under communism and the other nations did. That's the only relevant factor here. A Hasburg empire that made it to WWII would probably get conquered by Stalin too anyway.

    Projection is strong in you
     
    Says the Ukrainian who called a Slovaks ignorant peasants. I hope you were being ironic.

    This is a product of civilizational trends, not rulers (communists being an obvious exception).

    What sort of exception? The level of culture in the Soviet Union stayed consistently high up to the end (I’d say the high point was just before the collapse, even, which is a common trend in societal collapses), then declined to lows never seen before in the 1990s, as most of the talented old masters couldn’t adapt and the newly-rich financed degenerate cheap trash.

    The level of culture in the West declined because the CIA covertly funded Modern Art as a weapon against the more traditional art of the Eastern Bloc:
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/modern-art-was-cia-weapon-1578808.html

    It’s mostly better now than it was back then (the revival of Russian folklore is especially promising, even though it now often has more a martial and religious bent than it did before), but in some cases it has gotten worse. In some cases, the talented old artists kept making great art funded by miserly government programs that didn’t get removed due to simple inertia, and only in the recent decade have they finally died out, the programs ended, and “patriotic on the outside and American on the inside” artistic garbage crept in (like those big budget special effects-heavy war films the state keeps funding).

    • Replies: @AP

    The level of culture in the Soviet Union stayed consistently high up to the end (I’d say the high point was just before the collapse, even, which is a common trend in societal collapses),
     
    It collapsed suddenly, after the Revolution, which killed the Silver Age.
    , @Thorfinnsson
    It's true that the CIA funded abstract "art", but this was in development prior to the agency's creation and was taking off before the Nazis made a determined effort to strangle it with some success.

    I have a different take. Sculpture and especially painting collapsed because of technology. Photography made realistic painting obsolete--a mere technical curiosity. Sculpture was not made fundamentally obsolete (since it has a three-dimensional form), but it was deprecated.

    This inevitably led to experimentation with unrealistic representation. This unrealistic representation simply took a wrong turn with absolute garbage like Jackson Pollack or various degenerate trash "artists" the Nazis suppressed like Otto Dix. It could've gone the way of van Gogh (19th century but clearly Impressionism was not realistic), Dali, Hopper, etc.

    Today people use computers to produce interesting art which fuses realism with fantasy. Take a look at the attractive below piece of Cyberpunk art by a German Turk:

    https://cdna.artstation.com/p/assets/images/images/011/942/198/large/burak-yorur-ferrari-testarossa.jpg

    If we look at architecture, while a lot of modern architecture is hideous, there's something to be said for some of it. Many of the classic works of Frank Lloyd Wright, Louis Sullivan, and the Bauhaus school were very attractive. The Art Deco style is delightful, and a lot of Midcentury Modernism (including interior design) is wonderful. The new TWA Hotel is a wonderful temple of Midcentury Modernism and a great homage to the Jet Age: https://www.twahotel.com

    Music likewise changed because of technology (and economics). Electric instruments, amplified microphones & speakers, and multi-track recording made possible the production of catchy music from very small groups of musicians for the first time. There was also an effort to produce fundamentally ugly "music" (atonal music), but this failed since it's a lot harder to listen to hideous sounds than it is to look at hideous things.
  155. @Beckow
    You are really scraping the bottom '

    simpler looking?
     
    ' What is that? And you watch random tourist videos to actually form opinions? Pathetic. It is like me driving around some random square in Paris for 4 minutes and then trying to claim that I know Parisians. Stick with the chicas and their algorithmic prowess, they might even seem taller than the usual 5 feet if you twist you neck enough.

    Look, nobody from Czecho-Slovakia is trying to migrate to Lviv, or Ukraine, absolutely nobody. On the other hand our service jobs are overrun by migrants from Ukraine, they wash our dishes, dig our ditches, paint our signs, and provide just about any service that can be monetised. None that I have talked to has any desire to go back to Lviv, Kiev, Odessa, wherever in Ukraine. My views faithfully reflect what we hear from these Ukrainian migrants. They don't like Porky, most prefer to speak Russian, think that Maidan was stolen by the oligarchs, and the war is pointless.

    Maybe they are opportunistic and not representative - and back home in Ukraine there is this solid block of prosperous, nationalistic, well-dressed proud Ukrainians. But is it really there? Isn't your endlessly positive description just a desperate attempt not to be found wrong? I believe what I see and what people tell us. In Prague hotels ladies with PhDs from Ukraine work as 'dezhurneie', quite often surrounded by well-off tourists from Russia who awkwardly try to pretend not to see them. Because it is sad - the human collapse for so many from Ukraine - east and west - that we observe is very sad.

    Regarding your 'Rus' ancestry. What is it exactly, are you what we call a 'Rusin'?

    Regarding your ‘Rus’ ancestry. What is it exactly, are you what we call a ‘Rusin’?

    He is making a distinction between present-day Russians and medieval Russians, to whom he claims descent.
    Even though ever since the Mongol invasion and devastation of Rus’/Rusia/Russia/Rhos/Rossiya the population fled and moved to Muscovy, from serfs and peasants to Church hieararchs, townsfolk and nobility.
    Significant areas of present-day Ukraine were practically uninhabited by Slavs, being relegated to Wild Fields and threatened by hordes and slavers. Similarily, people fled persecution by Jesuits/Catholic rulers of Commonwealth, and abuse by magnates.

    In short, he is spreading the myth of Tatar and Mongol admixture in Russians of Russian Federation.

    • Replies: @AP

    He is making a distinction between present-day Russians and medieval Russians, to whom he claims descent.
     
    Western Rus from Ukraine and Belarus were not "medieval Russians," no more than Julius Caesar was an "ancient Romanian."

    Even though ever since the Mongol invasion and devastation of Rus’/Rusia/Russia/Rhos/Rossiya the population fled and moved to Muscovy, from serfs and peasants to Church hieararchs, townsfolk and nobility.
     
    LOL. Yeah, they mass fled in the direction of the invasion.

    Research on remains in Kiev indicate that modern people in Kiev are related to the pre-Mongol population and are different from ones in central and northern Russia.

    They mass fled westward away from the Mongols, to lands less affected by them such as Galicia and Volhynia, and returned to resettle during the times of the Poles and Lithuanians.

    Similarily, people fled persecution by Jesuits/Catholic rulers of Commonwealth, and abuse by magnates.
     
    \

    The magnate and Rus prince Yarema Vyshyovetsky settled his vast estates in Ukraine by offering light serf duties. Under him the population on his estates increased from 4,500 to 230,000 in under 20 years.
    , @Beckow

    ...he is spreading the myth of Tatar and Mongol admixture in Russians
     
    I see. Why would an 'admixture' be so bad? I am sure there is a lot of Euro-Asian admixture in Russians. People are what they are, admixtures are a big part of us. I am very nationalist by any standard, I like my people, I like others who are like us, I even sometimes embrace the 'xenophobe' term. Why wouldn't I like my own people better than foreigners? Anyone who doesn't is soft in the head - all normal people are xenophobic, it is in our genes.

    But my nationalism is based on the present - we, as we are today. Digging through history is interesting and amusing but there is no 'purity', and why would it even be desirable? The likes of AP should understand that the historical grievances and fantasies are self-defeating. But they won't, and that's how outsiders take over our societies.

  156. @Mr. Hack

    Your girls are indeed prettier
     
    That's a pretty strong endorsement AP. I'm no expert about Slovak women, but Ukrainian women have been celebrated as some of the most beautiful on the planet since time immemorial. You must not have been to Kyiv or Lviv lately AP, ones head just keeps rotating from left to right:

    https://ukrainiandatingblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/russian-vs-ukrainian-women.jpg

    https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/1600/1*Idx-aGnzJO6_FVes8934Ng.jpeg

    2016 Miss Ukraine pageant really had a thing for non-Slavic phenotype. Higher-class Turkish women of Istanbul was my first thought – nothing like Ukrainians I have met.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean

    2016 Miss Ukraine pageant really had a thing for non-Slavic phenotype. Higher-class Turkish women of Istanbul was my first thought – nothing like Ukrainians I have met.
     
    For a collective evaluation by our board:

    https://karavan.ua/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/11-9.jpg

    https://karavan.ua/krasota/miss-ukraina-2016-vse-chto-nuzhno-znat-o-gla/

    , @Mr. Hack
    I wouldn't call them 'non-slavic' phenotypes, because all of the girls that took part in the program were Ukrainian. As Ukraine has a long history of being a melting pot of different ethnicities that have passed through this 'border' area, there are traces of many types, mingling with a strong Slavic undertone. In Central Ukraine, around Kyiv, there's what I like to categorize as the'classic' Ukrainian look. These are classic Caucasian beauties, tall with fair skin. They could easily be mistaken for the most beautiful French or English lovelies. Perhaps, a Circassian element is present there, such as was heavily present in Hetman Mazepa's lineage. Circassian women's beauty was the stuff of legend in ancient times. Scandinavian elements can be found throughout Ukraine, as the Vikings and later Charles XII left their DNA imprint. All of this, over a base of at least 80% pure Slavic beauty, no wonder men all over the world are drawn towards Ukraine and its bounty!

    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/e2/ce/53/e2ce53355dbc34faf4329ab691a9dc1a.jpg

  157. @utu
    I think he is an unreformed commie who is still grieving the death of the USSR. He hates Ukies and Polacks whom he blames for the lack of reverence for the USSR his object of undying love and its subsequent demise. Perhaps he was running a business making the banners “Se Sovětským svazem na věčné časy a nikdy jinak!” in Czechoslovakia (after 1968 they wre omnipresent).

    I think utu is just sad that his ancestors were kicked out of the Sudetenland which explains all the unironic Naziphilia and obsessive desire to have Russia sacrifice itself to fight global Zionism.

    • Agree: Denis
    • Replies: @utu
    Not even close.
  158. @Epigon
    2016 Miss Ukraine pageant really had a thing for non-Slavic phenotype. Higher-class Turkish women of Istanbul was my first thought - nothing like Ukrainians I have met.

    2016 Miss Ukraine pageant really had a thing for non-Slavic phenotype. Higher-class Turkish women of Istanbul was my first thought – nothing like Ukrainians I have met.

    For a collective evaluation by our board:

    https://karavan.ua/krasota/miss-ukraina-2016-vse-chto-nuzhno-znat-o-gla/

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    They are just Ukrainian girls, covered with some fake tan or bronze makeup.


    -

    By the way, there are cities in Ukraine (including some of the most historically civilized), where you can see the population includes quite high percentage of darker people live.

    Some cities historically were very multinational. So perhaps it is influenced because of absorbing more blood from darker nationalities like Romanians, Jews, Hungarians, Gypsies, Greeks, etc. And perhaps also Ukrainian nationality itself always includes a wide variety of people of different colours. (Or more likely, a combination of both).


    For example, here is a Church Youth Choir in Chernovtsy.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVw9sRYhlyc
  159. @Anatoly Karlin
    I think utu is just sad that his ancestors were kicked out of the Sudetenland which explains all the unironic Naziphilia and obsessive desire to have Russia sacrifice itself to fight global Zionism.

    Not even close.

  160. AP says:
    @Beckow
    You are really scraping the bottom '

    simpler looking?
     
    ' What is that? And you watch random tourist videos to actually form opinions? Pathetic. It is like me driving around some random square in Paris for 4 minutes and then trying to claim that I know Parisians. Stick with the chicas and their algorithmic prowess, they might even seem taller than the usual 5 feet if you twist you neck enough.

    Look, nobody from Czecho-Slovakia is trying to migrate to Lviv, or Ukraine, absolutely nobody. On the other hand our service jobs are overrun by migrants from Ukraine, they wash our dishes, dig our ditches, paint our signs, and provide just about any service that can be monetised. None that I have talked to has any desire to go back to Lviv, Kiev, Odessa, wherever in Ukraine. My views faithfully reflect what we hear from these Ukrainian migrants. They don't like Porky, most prefer to speak Russian, think that Maidan was stolen by the oligarchs, and the war is pointless.

    Maybe they are opportunistic and not representative - and back home in Ukraine there is this solid block of prosperous, nationalistic, well-dressed proud Ukrainians. But is it really there? Isn't your endlessly positive description just a desperate attempt not to be found wrong? I believe what I see and what people tell us. In Prague hotels ladies with PhDs from Ukraine work as 'dezhurneie', quite often surrounded by well-off tourists from Russia who awkwardly try to pretend not to see them. Because it is sad - the human collapse for so many from Ukraine - east and west - that we observe is very sad.

    Regarding your 'Rus' ancestry. What is it exactly, are you what we call a 'Rusin'?

    So, once again no data from you – when you try to mention numbers you can’t help but exaggerate, even others notice. Only personal anecdotes. America is full of workers from Poland (they do my home reno, high skilled and honest workers) but so what? Polish economy is doing great, and as we have seen wages are much higher in Poland than in Slovakia when adjusted for cost of living.

    Isn’t your endlessly positive description just a desperate attempt not to be found wrong?

    Now you exaggerate again. I do not write “endlessly positive” things. I only write realistic things, supported by evidence. You write fake things and exaggerations. Ukraine is indeed poorer than all of its neighbors other than Moldova. But it has recovered from 2014 and the western and central parts are doing better than in 2014. Ukraine is actually doing marginally better relative to Russia than it was in 2013 (from 33% of Russia’s per capita GDP PPP in 2013 to 34% in 2017). But despite its recovery people will naturally take the opportunity to work in some place where waged are 3x higher.

    You, OTOH, lie about some sort of ongoing collapse.

    If the people you meet speak mostly Russian it means they are probably not from western Ukraine but form the east where the economy is worse.

  161. AP says:
    @Epigon

    Regarding your ‘Rus’ ancestry. What is it exactly, are you what we call a ‘Rusin’?
     
    He is making a distinction between present-day Russians and medieval Russians, to whom he claims descent.
    Even though ever since the Mongol invasion and devastation of Rus'/Rusia/Russia/Rhos/Rossiya the population fled and moved to Muscovy, from serfs and peasants to Church hieararchs, townsfolk and nobility.
    Significant areas of present-day Ukraine were practically uninhabited by Slavs, being relegated to Wild Fields and threatened by hordes and slavers. Similarily, people fled persecution by Jesuits/Catholic rulers of Commonwealth, and abuse by magnates.

    In short, he is spreading the myth of Tatar and Mongol admixture in Russians of Russian Federation.

    He is making a distinction between present-day Russians and medieval Russians, to whom he claims descent.

    Western Rus from Ukraine and Belarus were not “medieval Russians,” no more than Julius Caesar was an “ancient Romanian.”

    Even though ever since the Mongol invasion and devastation of Rus’/Rusia/Russia/Rhos/Rossiya the population fled and moved to Muscovy, from serfs and peasants to Church hieararchs, townsfolk and nobility.

    LOL. Yeah, they mass fled in the direction of the invasion.

    Research on remains in Kiev indicate that modern people in Kiev are related to the pre-Mongol population and are different from ones in central and northern Russia.

    They mass fled westward away from the Mongols, to lands less affected by them such as Galicia and Volhynia, and returned to resettle during the times of the Poles and Lithuanians.

    Similarily, people fled persecution by Jesuits/Catholic rulers of Commonwealth, and abuse by magnates.

    \

    The magnate and Rus prince Yarema Vyshyovetsky settled his vast estates in Ukraine by offering light serf duties. Under him the population on his estates increased from 4,500 to 230,000 in under 20 years.

    • Replies: @Epigon
    They would have fled northward, to swampier and forested lands after the initial Mongol/Tatar onslaught - not move to Polish-ruled lands lying on the Mongol warpath.

    Territory of present-day Ukraine under Lithunian rule was depopulated to an extreme degree.

    I would be very interested in your population estimates of various Rus’ principalities and regions from 1235 to 1350.
    , @Mikhail

    Research on remains in Kiev indicate that modern people in Kiev are related to the pre-Mongol population and are different from ones in central and northern Russia.
     
    Fuzzy at that.
  162. @E

    This is a product of civilizational trends, not rulers (communists being an obvious exception).
     
    What sort of exception? The level of culture in the Soviet Union stayed consistently high up to the end (I'd say the high point was just before the collapse, even, which is a common trend in societal collapses), then declined to lows never seen before in the 1990s, as most of the talented old masters couldn't adapt and the newly-rich financed degenerate cheap trash.

    The level of culture in the West declined because the CIA covertly funded Modern Art as a weapon against the more traditional art of the Eastern Bloc:
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/modern-art-was-cia-weapon-1578808.html

    It's mostly better now than it was back then (the revival of Russian folklore is especially promising, even though it now often has more a martial and religious bent than it did before), but in some cases it has gotten worse. In some cases, the talented old artists kept making great art funded by miserly government programs that didn't get removed due to simple inertia, and only in the recent decade have they finally died out, the programs ended, and "patriotic on the outside and American on the inside" artistic garbage crept in (like those big budget special effects-heavy war films the state keeps funding).

    The level of culture in the Soviet Union stayed consistently high up to the end (I’d say the high point was just before the collapse, even, which is a common trend in societal collapses),

    It collapsed suddenly, after the Revolution, which killed the Silver Age.

  163. @utu
    I think he is an unreformed commie who is still grieving the death of the USSR. He hates Ukies and Polacks whom he blames for the lack of reverence for the USSR his object of undying love and its subsequent demise. Perhaps he was running a business making the banners “Se Sovětským svazem na věčné časy a nikdy jinak!” in Czechoslovakia (after 1968 they wre omnipresent).

    This is also my impression.

  164. @Epigon
    2016 Miss Ukraine pageant really had a thing for non-Slavic phenotype. Higher-class Turkish women of Istanbul was my first thought - nothing like Ukrainians I have met.

    I wouldn’t call them ‘non-slavic’ phenotypes, because all of the girls that took part in the program were Ukrainian. As Ukraine has a long history of being a melting pot of different ethnicities that have passed through this ‘border’ area, there are traces of many types, mingling with a strong Slavic undertone. In Central Ukraine, around Kyiv, there’s what I like to categorize as the’classic’ Ukrainian look. These are classic Caucasian beauties, tall with fair skin. They could easily be mistaken for the most beautiful French or English lovelies. Perhaps, a Circassian element is present there, such as was heavily present in Hetman Mazepa’s lineage. Circassian women’s beauty was the stuff of legend in ancient times. Scandinavian elements can be found throughout Ukraine, as the Vikings and later Charles XII left their DNA imprint. All of this, over a base of at least 80% pure Slavic beauty, no wonder men all over the world are drawn towards Ukraine and its bounty!

    • Replies: @Epigon
    I was writing about the winner and the two runner-ups, contrasting their appearance with, in my opinion, more appealing and aesthetic classic Ukrainian look.
    Honestly, I would never proclaim those 3 the prettiest in that 2016 contest.

    Also, I have noticed a not-so-recent trend - the best looking girls are staying away from those Miss Universe and similar contests; this has been going on for at least a decade. In the Balkans, the ‘90s and early 00s had impressive winners and competitors; nowadays - not even close - a mulatto Tim Duncan-look alike won in Croatia, and she was the best looking!
    , @neutral
    They are drawn to Ukraine because there are many cheap whores there, that is normally something one should not be bragging about.
    , @Dmitry
    It's more an embarrassing result of a weak economy.

    Unattractive Western men, are attracted to women from Ukraine (and even Russia, Thailand, Brazil, Colombia, etc), because they believe they can "upgrade" to younger and more beautiful compared women than they date in their home country. (In addition, there are more liberal prostitution laws in these countries, compared to in Western countries like America).

    Ordinary income Americans, are upper-middle class economically compared to Ukrainians - so the dating options increase for less attractive Western men who cannot date in their home country, to go to Ukraine and suddenly upgrade their options.

    -

    Of course, a weird dichotomy in the interaction, because Russians and Ukrainians studying or living in the West are usually richer than most Westerners. Westerners seem to associate you that - you're either rich or poor (without space for those of us in the middle).

    , @LatW
    Western men who are hostile to Ukraine such as the majority of alt right should never be allowed access to any Ukrainian women.

    Btw, quite a few Ukrainian men are nice, too. :)

  165. @Hyperborean

    Americans elected a guy with a nationalist image and message. Compare to western Europe.
     
    His average approval ratings are fluctuating between 35-45% (for comparison he won 46.1% votes in the 2016 presidential election) and among Republicans his approval rates are generally in the high 80s.

    As of March 2019 they are 90% among Republicans, 1 point higher than when he started in January 2017.

    Is there a difference between "MAGA" and "MIGA"?
    And if there isn't, what does this say about American "capitalist state patriotism"?

    So, yes, you may, in a matter of interpretation, be correct when you state that the "American national idea is strong", but then I wouldn't consider it a complementary statement.

    https://news.gallup.com/poll/203198/presidential-approval-ratings-donald-trump.aspx

    His average approval ratings are fluctuating between 35-45% (for comparison he won 46.1% votes in the 2016 presidential election)

    Which would be over 50% among America’s titular “nationality.”

    This is much better performance than any nationalists do in Western Europe.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean

    Which would be over 50% among America’s titular “nationality.”

    This is much better performance than any nationalists do in Western Europe.
     

    Not my point. Do you consider the current Trump to be governing as a nationalist? Either they are following a personality cult or their "nationalism" is really state patriotism.

    America is all Americans have. It is correct for them to be patriots.

     

    Would you say the same to a Soviet citizen?
  166. @Adam
    America is a marketplace, a military, and a legal sytstem - not a nation. Anyone who still has loyalty to this system beyond their immediate self interest is a fool.

    America is all Americans have. It is correct for them to be patriots.

  167. @Mr. Hack
    I wouldn't call them 'non-slavic' phenotypes, because all of the girls that took part in the program were Ukrainian. As Ukraine has a long history of being a melting pot of different ethnicities that have passed through this 'border' area, there are traces of many types, mingling with a strong Slavic undertone. In Central Ukraine, around Kyiv, there's what I like to categorize as the'classic' Ukrainian look. These are classic Caucasian beauties, tall with fair skin. They could easily be mistaken for the most beautiful French or English lovelies. Perhaps, a Circassian element is present there, such as was heavily present in Hetman Mazepa's lineage. Circassian women's beauty was the stuff of legend in ancient times. Scandinavian elements can be found throughout Ukraine, as the Vikings and later Charles XII left their DNA imprint. All of this, over a base of at least 80% pure Slavic beauty, no wonder men all over the world are drawn towards Ukraine and its bounty!

    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/e2/ce/53/e2ce53355dbc34faf4329ab691a9dc1a.jpg

    I was writing about the winner and the two runner-ups, contrasting their appearance with, in my opinion, more appealing and aesthetic classic Ukrainian look.
    Honestly, I would never proclaim those 3 the prettiest in that 2016 contest.

    Also, I have noticed a not-so-recent trend – the best looking girls are staying away from those Miss Universe and similar contests; this has been going on for at least a decade. In the Balkans, the ‘90s and early 00s had impressive winners and competitors; nowadays – not even close – a mulatto Tim Duncan-look alike won in Croatia, and she was the best looking!

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    Since I was a little kid, and I would watch the Ms. Universe contest along with my mother and older sister (there were no Ukrainian women involved at that time) our favorites usually included tall beautiful women from Venezuela. God was good, he scattered beautiful women around the whole planet! BTW, my sister was a local beauty in Minnesota who won several beauty contests and worked her way through college modeling high end clothing in the best local department stores. If I can locate a photo of hers, I'll try to post it.
  168. @AP

    He is making a distinction between present-day Russians and medieval Russians, to whom he claims descent.
     
    Western Rus from Ukraine and Belarus were not "medieval Russians," no more than Julius Caesar was an "ancient Romanian."

    Even though ever since the Mongol invasion and devastation of Rus’/Rusia/Russia/Rhos/Rossiya the population fled and moved to Muscovy, from serfs and peasants to Church hieararchs, townsfolk and nobility.
     
    LOL. Yeah, they mass fled in the direction of the invasion.

    Research on remains in Kiev indicate that modern people in Kiev are related to the pre-Mongol population and are different from ones in central and northern Russia.

    They mass fled westward away from the Mongols, to lands less affected by them such as Galicia and Volhynia, and returned to resettle during the times of the Poles and Lithuanians.

    Similarily, people fled persecution by Jesuits/Catholic rulers of Commonwealth, and abuse by magnates.
     
    \

    The magnate and Rus prince Yarema Vyshyovetsky settled his vast estates in Ukraine by offering light serf duties. Under him the population on his estates increased from 4,500 to 230,000 in under 20 years.

    They would have fled northward, to swampier and forested lands after the initial Mongol/Tatar onslaught – not move to Polish-ruled lands lying on the Mongol warpath.

    Territory of present-day Ukraine under Lithunian rule was depopulated to an extreme degree.

    I would be very interested in your population estimates of various Rus’ principalities and regions from 1235 to 1350.

    • Replies: @AP

    They would have fled northward, to swampier and forested lands after the initial Mongol/Tatar onslaught – not move to Polish-ruled lands lying on the Mongol warpath.
     
    So they would have fled to inhospitable lands devastated by the Mongols and owned by them, rather than to lands touched less by them. Makes sense. Cities in Russia (other than Novgorod sand Pskov) were devastated by the Mongols. Lviv was not. It was too far, the local kings paid a ransom and were mostly left alone.

    And science proves you wrong. If there was mass population transfer to the North, one would expect that Russians in Moscow, Suzdal etc. would be just like ancient Kievans. But they are not. Modern Ukrainians are like ancient Kievans.

    This article about demographics of Galicia-Volynia indicates settlers fleeing there from thje Mongols, even from what are now Russian lands:

    https://web.archive.org/web/20070930155007/http://litopys.org.ua/krypgvol/krypgv03.htm

    There were refugees from Chernihiv, Kursk.

    not move to Polish-ruled lands lying on the Mongol warpath
     
    Galicia-Volhynia wasn't ruled by Poles until 100 years after the Mongol invasion.

    Territory of present-day Ukraine under Lithunian rule was depopulated to an extreme degree.
     
    And massively repopulated by people coming back from Volhynia and Galicia.
  169. @AP

    His average approval ratings are fluctuating between 35-45% (for comparison he won 46.1% votes in the 2016 presidential election)
     
    Which would be over 50% among America's titular "nationality."

    This is much better performance than any nationalists do in Western Europe.

    Which would be over 50% among America’s titular “nationality.”

    This is much better performance than any nationalists do in Western Europe.

    Not my point. Do you consider the current Trump to be governing as a nationalist? Either they are following a personality cult or their “nationalism” is really state patriotism.

    America is all Americans have. It is correct for them to be patriots.

    Would you say the same to a Soviet citizen?

  170. AP says:
    @Adam

    1. Loss of culture
     
    The cultural level of all European cultures declined sharply after the 1st and especially 2nd world war. This is a product of civilizational trends, not rulers (communists being an obvious exception). The only nations whose greatest works are from the last 100 years are countries like Albania or Latvia who had no culture to begin with. Scandinavian countries still have monarchies and the cultural decline relative to where they were in 1910 is absolutely astounding.

    2. Loss of life. After 1918 these lands became helpless before the Nazi and Soviet invaders. 100,000s were killed.
     
    Austria-Hungary would not likely offer much more resistance to the Germans or Soviets than Poland, i.e none at all. Moreover, Germany could easily exploit ethnic tensions to undermine the state. Do you think Croats, Hungarians, or Romanians would seriously fight a hopeless war when Hitler would offer them independent states?

    3. Loss of prosperity.
     
    Austria did not fall under communism and the other nations did. That's the only relevant factor here. A Hasburg empire that made it to WWII would probably get conquered by Stalin too anyway.

    Projection is strong in you
     
    Says the Ukrainian who called a Slovaks ignorant peasants. I hope you were being ironic.

    The cultural level of all European cultures declined sharply after the 1st and especially 2nd world war. This is a product of civilizational trends, not rulers

    All of Europe lost its monarchies (real ones, who wielded real power and set the societal tone) after World War I. Czechs overthrew the monarchy, and their culture declined.

    Austria-Hungary would not likely offer much more resistance to the Germans or Soviets than Poland, i.e none at all.

    Who knows if they would have invaded such a large state, rather than cut a deal with it. It may have played a role for Germany that Italy did. Italy’s fate was much kinder in World War II than was that of the little useless statelets. The little states were helpless before the onslaught. Nazis and Soviets did with them what they wished.

    Loss of prosperity.

    Austria did not fall under communism and the other nations did. That’s the only relevant factor here.

    See above. Falling under communism was another result of the breakup of A-H.

    Projection is strong in you

    Says the Ukrainian who called a Slovaks ignorant peasants.

    They are a peasant nation, like Ukrainians- more so, even. Lviv is about twice the size of their capital, despite the overall Galician population being smaller than that of Slovakia. Historically, Lviv (population 230,000 in 1910) was always about 18% Ukrainian. Bratislava (population 78,000 in 1910) was about 15% Slovak.

    I never called them ignorant. But they are deluded if they celebrate the end of the Hapsburgs. It was a catastrophe for the peoples of central Europe. Much more catastrophic than Maidan was for Ukraine. This is where Beckow’s projection comes in. His own people engaged in an emotional hysterical nationalist overthrow whose negative effects lasted for about a century. He is proud of it. He insists it wasn’t a mistake. But western and central Ukrainian nationalists took the reigns of their country from the neo-Sovoks and he became quite bitter, considers it a mistake, hysteria, etc. Yet in 4 short years the western and central Ukrainians have recovered and the country as a whole is set to be back to where it has been in 2013, sometime in 2019. In contrast Czech republic recovered its position vis a vis Austria in the 21st century, and Hungary never came close (in 1913 it had 85% if Austria’s GDP PPP per capita, today it is 56%).

    He projects in other ways. As we have seen, he has a pattern of exaggeration and dishonesty, yet accuses others of these things. But his fixation on the “mistake” of Maidan is the most funny one.

    • Replies: @Epigon
    Yes, foreign monarchy really turned out great for Sorbs, Wends and Carinthians, not to mention Baltic tribes that were in the end left alone in Lithuania and Latvia only through a freak accident of history, and might be only temporary.

    You are literally calling out Czechs and Slovaks for resisting foreign monarchs and nobility.

    Now be constistent and proclaim that the experiment of Ukrainian independence and anti-Russianess has been a disaster compared to the hypothetical Rus’ federation/All-Russian nation.

    Out of curiosity, when will Ukraine reach the GDP PPP % of Galicia filled with Poles and Jews, relative to Austrian one?

    , @Mr. XYZ

    Who knows if they would have invaded such a large state, rather than cut a deal with it. It may have played a role for Germany that Italy did. Italy’s fate was much kinder in World War II than was that of the little useless statelets. The little states were helpless before the onslaught. Nazis and Soviets did with them what they wished.
     
    Hitler really, really hated the Hapsburgs. For instance, he wrote positively about Franz Ferdinand's assassination in Mein Kampf--writing that he initially believed that it was the work of German nationalists who disliked FF's anti-German and pro-Slavic attitudes. Thus, I really, really don't see Hitler cutting a deal with a surviving Austria-Hungary. Heck, if Austria-Hungary survives as a result of getting out of World War I earlier, then Hitler might hold the Hapsburgs as responsible for Germany's WWI defeat as he did the Jews--and look at what ultimately happened to them!

    Hitler was willing to make deals with Mussolini because he admired Mussolini's Fascist style of government. What exactly was Hitler going to admire about the Hapsburgs--a royal family that abandoned their German roots and intermarried with Czechs?
    , @Thorfinnsson


    All of Europe lost its monarchies (real ones, who wielded real power and set the societal tone) after World War I. Czechs overthrew the monarchy, and their culture declined.
     
    The magnificent artistic efflorescence of the Belle Époque occurred under a republican government.

    Many of the artistic wonders of Classical Antiquity also took place under republican governments. Venice was The Most Serene Republic, and its buildings are certainly serene.

    Kneejerk republicanism and opposition to all monarchy is a mental illness, but republicanism isn't fundamentally unsound either.
    , @Denis
    So much for all that "Visegrad stronk" crap you were preaching in previous open threads. All it takes is one commentator (Beckow) who disagrees with you and you go from dreaming about a glorious new Ukrainian-Czech-Hungarian-Polish-Slovakian alliance to shitting on his country and insisting that his people are stupid for not wanting to be ruled by a foreign empire 100 years ago lol.

    "I'm AP, and the Czechs, Slovaks, and Hungarians all need to repent for not giving enough support to the Hapsburg empire a century ago, this was really inconvenient for me because now it's made it even more difficult for me to advocate my bizarre strain of Ukrainian nationalism on the internet."

    Watch out Poles! If you don't mourn the Hapsburgs enough, AP will get you, too! Then you'll see!
  171. @Mitleser

    I’ve long thought that the entire history of the British alliance with France leading up to World War 1 was their greatest strategic mistake.
     
    It was not an alliance until the war.
    The point of the Entente was to make their global Empire less costly by resolving conflicts with France, the other real global power.

    Just as the Austro-Hungarian Empire was distracted by having to grapple with a number of enemies within Europe, so British statesmen had to engage in a diplomatic and strategical juggling act that was literally worldwide in its dimensions. In the critical year of 1895, for example, the Cabinet found itself worrying about the possible collapse of the Ottoman Empire as a result of the Armenian crisis, about the looming clash with Germany over southern Africa at almost exactly the same time as the quarrel with the United States over the Venezuela-British Guiana borders, about French military expeditions in equatorial Africa, and about a Russian drive toward the Hindu Kush...
     
    - The Rise and Fall of the Great Powers, p. 227

    It was not an alliance until the war.

    Yes, this is technically correct.

    Regardless, when the effect of Franco-British policy was to entangle Britain in the worst conflict yet seen, I feel okay about calling it an alliance in effect.

  172. @AP

    The cultural level of all European cultures declined sharply after the 1st and especially 2nd world war. This is a product of civilizational trends, not rulers
     
    All of Europe lost its monarchies (real ones, who wielded real power and set the societal tone) after World War I. Czechs overthrew the monarchy, and their culture declined.

    Austria-Hungary would not likely offer much more resistance to the Germans or Soviets than Poland, i.e none at all.
     
    Who knows if they would have invaded such a large state, rather than cut a deal with it. It may have played a role for Germany that Italy did. Italy's fate was much kinder in World War II than was that of the little useless statelets. The little states were helpless before the onslaught. Nazis and Soviets did with them what they wished.

    Loss of prosperity.

    Austria did not fall under communism and the other nations did. That’s the only relevant factor here.
     
    See above. Falling under communism was another result of the breakup of A-H.

    Projection is strong in you

    Says the Ukrainian who called a Slovaks ignorant peasants.
     
    They are a peasant nation, like Ukrainians- more so, even. Lviv is about twice the size of their capital, despite the overall Galician population being smaller than that of Slovakia. Historically, Lviv (population 230,000 in 1910) was always about 18% Ukrainian. Bratislava (population 78,000 in 1910) was about 15% Slovak.

    I never called them ignorant. But they are deluded if they celebrate the end of the Hapsburgs. It was a catastrophe for the peoples of central Europe. Much more catastrophic than Maidan was for Ukraine. This is where Beckow's projection comes in. His own people engaged in an emotional hysterical nationalist overthrow whose negative effects lasted for about a century. He is proud of it. He insists it wasn't a mistake. But western and central Ukrainian nationalists took the reigns of their country from the neo-Sovoks and he became quite bitter, considers it a mistake, hysteria, etc. Yet in 4 short years the western and central Ukrainians have recovered and the country as a whole is set to be back to where it has been in 2013, sometime in 2019. In contrast Czech republic recovered its position vis a vis Austria in the 21st century, and Hungary never came close (in 1913 it had 85% if Austria's GDP PPP per capita, today it is 56%).

    He projects in other ways. As we have seen, he has a pattern of exaggeration and dishonesty, yet accuses others of these things. But his fixation on the "mistake" of Maidan is the most funny one.

    Yes, foreign monarchy really turned out great for Sorbs, Wends and Carinthians, not to mention Baltic tribes that were in the end left alone in Lithuania and Latvia only through a freak accident of history, and might be only temporary.

    You are literally calling out Czechs and Slovaks for resisting foreign monarchs and nobility.

    Now be constistent and proclaim that the experiment of Ukrainian independence and anti-Russianess has been a disaster compared to the hypothetical Rus’ federation/All-Russian nation.

    Out of curiosity, when will Ukraine reach the GDP PPP % of Galicia filled with Poles and Jews, relative to Austrian one?

    • Replies: @AP

    Yes, foreign monarchy really turned out great for Sorbs, Wends and Carinthians, not to mention Baltic tribes that were in the end left alone in Lithuania and Latvia only through a freak accident of history, and might be only temporary.
     
    I was discussing Hapsburgs specifically, not other monarchies.

    You are literally calling out Czechs and Slovaks for resisting against foreign monarchs and nobility.
     
    They resisted the monarchy under whom Prague switched from a German to a Czech-speaking city and mass literacy was achieved in that native language.

    Now be constistent and proclaim that the experiment of Ukrainian independence and anti-Russianess has been a disaster compared to the hypothetical Rus’ federation/All-Russian nation.
     
    Ukraine has recovered from Maidan, so no disaster there.

    Ukraine slipped from having 44% of Russia's per capita GDP PPP in 1992 to 34% in 2017. Significant decline (though not as bad as what happened to Hungarians). OTOH, no mass killings and no loss of culture so overall not as bad as what happened to central Europeans after Hapsburgs.
  173. @notanon
    yes, i didn't realize the percentage was so high - explains a lot

    There is an old book called ‘Civil War Regimental Losses’ or something like that, by a former Union Army colonel named Fox.

    It is a very good book.

    At one point, he scrupulously examined combat casualties of various wars of the 19th century and found that no European war equaled the intensity of the American Civil War. Only Waterloo came close, and it was surpassed by Gettysburg.

    On the Union side alone, Fox said there were over 110,000 KIA, but Confederate casualty percentages were higher.

    Fox writes:

    The Franco-Prussian war of 1870-71 was one of the greatest of European wars. Larger armies were never assembled. The Germans took 797,950 men into France. Of this number, 28,277 were killed, or died of wounds– a loss of 3.1 per cent. In the Crimean war, the allied armies lost 3.2 per cent. in killed, or deaths from wounds. In the war of 1866, the Austrian army lost 2.6 per cent. from the same cause. But, in the American Civil War the Union Armies lost 4.7 per cent., and the Confederates over 9 per cent.; and this despite the greater area of country, which required a large share of the troops to protect the lines of communication. There are no figures on record to show that, even in the Napoleonic wars, there was ever a greater percentage of loss in killed. In fact, all the statistics pertaining to the earlier wars of the century are loosely stated, and bear on their face a lack of accuracy.

    As for Borodino, the total number of killed and wounded – and men engaged – there exceeded Gettysburg, but the percentages at Gettysburg were higher.

    Of course Gettysburg lasted 3 days, in the middle of a longer, grueling campaign that summer. Antietam and Shiloh day one were more concentrated, so many Union veterans who survived both the former and Gettysburg claimed that Antietam was worse.

    I agree with something the “War Nerd” once wrote, namely that the armies of the American Civil War (both sides) were, more or less, as good as anyone who wants to claim “best army ever” tag. Put the Union Iron Brigade and the rebel Texas Brigade together in a division with some Wisconsin boys* from Sherman’s army and I would take them over any European force.

    * Wisconsin is something of an unassuming state, but they have historically produced some damn fine fighting men

  174. AP says:
    @Epigon
    They would have fled northward, to swampier and forested lands after the initial Mongol/Tatar onslaught - not move to Polish-ruled lands lying on the Mongol warpath.

    Territory of present-day Ukraine under Lithunian rule was depopulated to an extreme degree.

    I would be very interested in your population estimates of various Rus’ principalities and regions from 1235 to 1350.

    They would have fled northward, to swampier and forested lands after the initial Mongol/Tatar onslaught – not move to Polish-ruled lands lying on the Mongol warpath.

    So they would have fled to inhospitable lands devastated by the Mongols and owned by them, rather than to lands touched less by them. Makes sense. Cities in Russia (other than Novgorod sand Pskov) were devastated by the Mongols. Lviv was not. It was too far, the local kings paid a ransom and were mostly left alone.

    And science proves you wrong. If there was mass population transfer to the North, one would expect that Russians in Moscow, Suzdal etc. would be just like ancient Kievans. But they are not. Modern Ukrainians are like ancient Kievans.

    This article about demographics of Galicia-Volynia indicates settlers fleeing there from thje Mongols, even from what are now Russian lands:

    https://web.archive.org/web/20070930155007/http://litopys.org.ua/krypgvol/krypgv03.htm

    There were refugees from Chernihiv, Kursk.

    not move to Polish-ruled lands lying on the Mongol warpath

    Galicia-Volhynia wasn’t ruled by Poles until 100 years after the Mongol invasion.

    Territory of present-day Ukraine under Lithunian rule was depopulated to an extreme degree.

    And massively repopulated by people coming back from Volhynia and Galicia.

    • Replies: @Rattus Norwegius
    "And science proves you wrong. If there was mass population transfer to the North, one would expect that Russians in Moscow, Suzdal etc. would be just like ancient Kievans. But they are not. Modern Ukrainians are like ancient Kievans."
    Those Rus who fleed north may not have been numerous. Even if the migrants were numerous, those Kievans would not be the only people in those areas. Intermarriage between northward moving Rus, local Rus and local non-Rus would create a new genotype. For the genotype of Russia to have been identical to that of medieval Kiev would require a total population replacement.
    , @melanf

    And science proves you wrong. If there was mass population transfer to the North, one would expect that Russians in Moscow, Suzdal etc. would be just like ancient Kievans. But they are not. Modern Ukrainians are like ancient Kievans.
     
    When I read such pretentious nonsense it is difficult to resist the desire to make fun of

    "The Kiev necropolis gives extensive craniological material, there are burials in wooden coffins, underground graves and log tombs. All this suggests a mixed ethnic composition of the population of ancient Kiev. Assessment of the total craniological series from Kiev against the background of variability of the features of the German groups showed a striking difference between the ancient people of Kiev from the Germans (Scandinavians). Apparently, the number of Normans in the army of the Prince of Kiev was very small, as long as they not left an imprint on the anthropological appearance of the city's population. At the same time, the features of the steppe nomadic population characterized by weakened Mongoloid features are clearly traced in the appearance of the ancient Kievans. Steppe dwellers known from the cemeteries in Zlivko and Kanevka. The rural population of Kievan Rus is anthropologically close to the urban one, but it is more homogeneous in its physiological appearance. There is no Germanic traits"

    (Т. И. Алексеева. Славяне и германцы в свете антропологических данных. // Вопросы истории, 1974, № 3.)
  175. AP says:
    @Epigon
    Yes, foreign monarchy really turned out great for Sorbs, Wends and Carinthians, not to mention Baltic tribes that were in the end left alone in Lithuania and Latvia only through a freak accident of history, and might be only temporary.

    You are literally calling out Czechs and Slovaks for resisting foreign monarchs and nobility.

    Now be constistent and proclaim that the experiment of Ukrainian independence and anti-Russianess has been a disaster compared to the hypothetical Rus’ federation/All-Russian nation.

    Out of curiosity, when will Ukraine reach the GDP PPP % of Galicia filled with Poles and Jews, relative to Austrian one?

    Yes, foreign monarchy really turned out great for Sorbs, Wends and Carinthians, not to mention Baltic tribes that were in the end left alone in Lithuania and Latvia only through a freak accident of history, and might be only temporary.

    I was discussing Hapsburgs specifically, not other monarchies.

    You are literally calling out Czechs and Slovaks for resisting against foreign monarchs and nobility.

    They resisted the monarchy under whom Prague switched from a German to a Czech-speaking city and mass literacy was achieved in that native language.

    Now be constistent and proclaim that the experiment of Ukrainian independence and anti-Russianess has been a disaster compared to the hypothetical Rus’ federation/All-Russian nation.

    Ukraine has recovered from Maidan, so no disaster there.

    Ukraine slipped from having 44% of Russia’s per capita GDP PPP in 1992 to 34% in 2017. Significant decline (though not as bad as what happened to Hungarians). OTOH, no mass killings and no loss of culture so overall not as bad as what happened to central Europeans after Hapsburgs.

    • Replies: @Beckow
    With all due respect you literally know almost nothing about the Habsburg Empire. The far eastern and backward Galicia was only marginally linked to the Habsburgs, only for a relatively short time. Out of your sense of inferiority you are latching to something 'Western', something that would accept you, so you choose the Habsburgs and start mindlessly worshipping them. A frustrated cargo cultist and colonial wannabe is just screaming from your writing.

    Habsburg Empire collapsed for a reason, it was a dysfunctional melange of feuding nationalities and there was no way to hold them together. It s culture was ok, but also not as great as you make it out to be - most of our culture was explicitly non-Habsburg, anti-Habsburg, and post-Habsburg. I am not going to argue names with someone who thinks that Hasek was 'Habsburg culture' and volunteered to fight in WWI - your level of ignorance is simply astounding.

    Your loud anti-peasant posturing betrays an insecure person who is trying to make himself feel better by 'blue blood' allusions, or the Sudeten German links, or 'Rus', or whatever. Get over it, nobody gives a sh.t about your geneological fantasies. We are all mostly descended from peasants.

    Maidan clearly made mistakes and that means there will be some unpleasant consequences. I suggested before that instead of arguing, we just wait. If in a few years Ukraine is a prosperous, united country in EU, with stable population and living standards close to its neighbours - you will turn out to be right and we will accept it.

    If on the other hand, Ukraine is outside of EU, internally feuding, with declining population (since 1991 down already by 5-7 million or more), and living standards that are 1/3 or 1/4 of its neighbours (Poland, Russia, Hungary, ... - not 'Moldova') then I would expect an admission that maybe Maidan made some mistakes. As of today, March 2019 - 5 years after Maidan - we are a lot closer to the second failing scenario. Let's give it a few more years and see. But you don't have '100 years' - that's irrational.

    , @Mr. XYZ

    Ukraine slipped from having 44% of Russia’s per capita GDP PPP in 1992 to 34% in 2017. Significant decline (though not as bad as what happened to Hungarians). OTOH, no mass killings and no loss of culture so overall not as bad as what happened to central Europeans after Hapsburgs.
     
    Do you think that Cambodia should have stayed a French protectorate? After all, there would have been no Khmer Rouge in Cambodia had the French remained there.
  176. @Mr. Hack

    Your girls are indeed prettier
     
    That's a pretty strong endorsement AP. I'm no expert about Slovak women, but Ukrainian women have been celebrated as some of the most beautiful on the planet since time immemorial. You must not have been to Kyiv or Lviv lately AP, ones head just keeps rotating from left to right:

    https://ukrainiandatingblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/russian-vs-ukrainian-women.jpg

    https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/1600/1*Idx-aGnzJO6_FVes8934Ng.jpeg

    Are in Ukraine now an implicit “politically correct law” forcing to choose girls from ethnic minorities in beauty contests? I also would have bet the dark haired girls were Aegean Turks, Greeks or Sicilians (i.e. east Mediterranean phenotype). They are not representative of the Slavic phenotype at all.

    • Replies: @neutral
    This is Miss Finland:
    http://www.returnofkings.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/amissh2-574x323.jpg

    I have zero doubts that the Cuckraine will have a black miss Ukraine within 10 years, the whole US cargo cultism thing is strong in that place.

  177. @Epigon
    I was writing about the winner and the two runner-ups, contrasting their appearance with, in my opinion, more appealing and aesthetic classic Ukrainian look.
    Honestly, I would never proclaim those 3 the prettiest in that 2016 contest.

    Also, I have noticed a not-so-recent trend - the best looking girls are staying away from those Miss Universe and similar contests; this has been going on for at least a decade. In the Balkans, the ‘90s and early 00s had impressive winners and competitors; nowadays - not even close - a mulatto Tim Duncan-look alike won in Croatia, and she was the best looking!

    Since I was a little kid, and I would watch the Ms. Universe contest along with my mother and older sister (there were no Ukrainian women involved at that time) our favorites usually included tall beautiful women from Venezuela. God was good, he scattered beautiful women around the whole planet! BTW, my sister was a local beauty in Minnesota who won several beauty contests and worked her way through college modeling high end clothing in the best local department stores. If I can locate a photo of hers, I’ll try to post it.

  178. @Mr. Hack
    I wouldn't call them 'non-slavic' phenotypes, because all of the girls that took part in the program were Ukrainian. As Ukraine has a long history of being a melting pot of different ethnicities that have passed through this 'border' area, there are traces of many types, mingling with a strong Slavic undertone. In Central Ukraine, around Kyiv, there's what I like to categorize as the'classic' Ukrainian look. These are classic Caucasian beauties, tall with fair skin. They could easily be mistaken for the most beautiful French or English lovelies. Perhaps, a Circassian element is present there, such as was heavily present in Hetman Mazepa's lineage. Circassian women's beauty was the stuff of legend in ancient times. Scandinavian elements can be found throughout Ukraine, as the Vikings and later Charles XII left their DNA imprint. All of this, over a base of at least 80% pure Slavic beauty, no wonder men all over the world are drawn towards Ukraine and its bounty!

    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/e2/ce/53/e2ce53355dbc34faf4329ab691a9dc1a.jpg

    They are drawn to Ukraine because there are many cheap whores there, that is normally something one should not be bragging about.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    There are 'cheap whores' to be found in every country - where do you procure your own misshapened tragedies? :-)
  179. @aedib
    Are in Ukraine now an implicit “politically correct law” forcing to choose girls from ethnic minorities in beauty contests? I also would have bet the dark haired girls were Aegean Turks, Greeks or Sicilians (i.e. east Mediterranean phenotype). They are not representative of the Slavic phenotype at all.

    This is Miss Finland:
    I have zero doubts that the Cuckraine will have a black miss Ukraine within 10 years, the whole US cargo cultism thing is strong in that place.

    • LOL: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @Hyperborean

    This is Miss Finland
     
    "It" looks like a man.
    , @songbird
    Now, technically she was only Miss Helsinki, which is at least semi-plausible since it is now filled with Africans and Arabs and some have no doubt had acid thrown in their faces.

    Although, to be fair, Miss Finland seems to have been won by mulatto with a Yoruba name and a hapa in previous years. Though, I believe a mulatto Hapa won in Japan once.

    The whole idea of these globalist beauty contests is absurd though. They are clearly favoring race-mixing and women who look like each other. Don't expect a redheaded woman to ever win. Possibly a dark-haired white, but increasingly, light-skinned blacks and other Kalergi types.
    , @aedib
    LOL. She's not only a "black Finn". She's also ugly. It seems that there is a mandate to select ugly women now. I still remember the loud campaign against “racists claims” when a black girl was selected as Miss Italy. She was not representative of Italian women but, at least, she was beautiful.
    , @DFH
    She is not even attractive by the standards of black women.
  180. @neutral
    This is Miss Finland:
    http://www.returnofkings.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/amissh2-574x323.jpg

    I have zero doubts that the Cuckraine will have a black miss Ukraine within 10 years, the whole US cargo cultism thing is strong in that place.

    This is Miss Finland

    “It” looks like a man.

  181. @neutral
    They are drawn to Ukraine because there are many cheap whores there, that is normally something one should not be bragging about.

    There are ‘cheap whores’ to be found in every country – where do you procure your own misshapened tragedies? 🙂

  182. @Hyperborean

    2016 Miss Ukraine pageant really had a thing for non-Slavic phenotype. Higher-class Turkish women of Istanbul was my first thought – nothing like Ukrainians I have met.
     
    For a collective evaluation by our board:

    https://karavan.ua/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/11-9.jpg

    https://karavan.ua/krasota/miss-ukraina-2016-vse-chto-nuzhno-znat-o-gla/

    They are just Ukrainian girls, covered with some fake tan or bronze makeup.

    By the way, there are cities in Ukraine (including some of the most historically civilized), where you can see the population includes quite high percentage of darker people live.

    Some cities historically were very multinational. So perhaps it is influenced because of absorbing more blood from darker nationalities like Romanians, Jews, Hungarians, Gypsies, Greeks, etc. And perhaps also Ukrainian nationality itself always includes a wide variety of people of different colours. (Or more likely, a combination of both).

    For example, here is a Church Youth Choir in Chernovtsy.

  183. @Mr. Hack
    I wouldn't call them 'non-slavic' phenotypes, because all of the girls that took part in the program were Ukrainian. As Ukraine has a long history of being a melting pot of different ethnicities that have passed through this 'border' area, there are traces of many types, mingling with a strong Slavic undertone. In Central Ukraine, around Kyiv, there's what I like to categorize as the'classic' Ukrainian look. These are classic Caucasian beauties, tall with fair skin. They could easily be mistaken for the most beautiful French or English lovelies. Perhaps, a Circassian element is present there, such as was heavily present in Hetman Mazepa's lineage. Circassian women's beauty was the stuff of legend in ancient times. Scandinavian elements can be found throughout Ukraine, as the Vikings and later Charles XII left their DNA imprint. All of this, over a base of at least 80% pure Slavic beauty, no wonder men all over the world are drawn towards Ukraine and its bounty!

    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/e2/ce/53/e2ce53355dbc34faf4329ab691a9dc1a.jpg

    It’s more an embarrassing result of a weak economy.

    Unattractive Western men, are attracted to women from Ukraine (and even Russia, Thailand, Brazil, Colombia, etc), because they believe they can “upgrade” to younger and more beautiful compared women than they date in their home country. (In addition, there are more liberal prostitution laws in these countries, compared to in Western countries like America).

    Ordinary income Americans, are upper-middle class economically compared to Ukrainians – so the dating options increase for less attractive Western men who cannot date in their home country, to go to Ukraine and suddenly upgrade their options.

    Of course, a weird dichotomy in the interaction, because Russians and Ukrainians studying or living in the West are usually richer than most Westerners. Westerners seem to associate you that – you’re either rich or poor (without space for those of us in the middle).

  184. @AP

    Yes, foreign monarchy really turned out great for Sorbs, Wends and Carinthians, not to mention Baltic tribes that were in the end left alone in Lithuania and Latvia only through a freak accident of history, and might be only temporary.
     
    I was discussing Hapsburgs specifically, not other monarchies.

    You are literally calling out Czechs and Slovaks for resisting against foreign monarchs and nobility.
     
    They resisted the monarchy under whom Prague switched from a German to a Czech-speaking city and mass literacy was achieved in that native language.

    Now be constistent and proclaim that the experiment of Ukrainian independence and anti-Russianess has been a disaster compared to the hypothetical Rus’ federation/All-Russian nation.
     
    Ukraine has recovered from Maidan, so no disaster there.

    Ukraine slipped from having 44% of Russia's per capita GDP PPP in 1992 to 34% in 2017. Significant decline (though not as bad as what happened to Hungarians). OTOH, no mass killings and no loss of culture so overall not as bad as what happened to central Europeans after Hapsburgs.

    With all due respect you literally know almost nothing about the Habsburg Empire. The far eastern and backward Galicia was only marginally linked to the Habsburgs, only for a relatively short time. Out of your sense of inferiority you are latching to something ‘Western’, something that would accept you, so you choose the Habsburgs and start mindlessly worshipping them. A frustrated cargo cultist and colonial wannabe is just screaming from your writing.

    Habsburg Empire collapsed for a reason, it was a dysfunctional melange of feuding nationalities and there was no way to hold them together. It s culture was ok, but also not as great as you make it out to be – most of our culture was explicitly non-Habsburg, anti-Habsburg, and post-Habsburg. I am not going to argue names with someone who thinks that Hasek was ‘Habsburg culture’ and volunteered to fight in WWI – your level of ignorance is simply astounding.

    Your loud anti-peasant posturing betrays an insecure person who is trying to make himself feel better by ‘blue blood’ allusions, or the Sudeten German links, or ‘Rus’, or whatever. Get over it, nobody gives a sh.t about your geneological fantasies. We are all mostly descended from peasants.

    Maidan clearly made mistakes and that means there will be some unpleasant consequences. I suggested before that instead of arguing, we just wait. If in a few years Ukraine is a prosperous, united country in EU, with stable population and living standards close to its neighbours – you will turn out to be right and we will accept it.

    If on the other hand, Ukraine is outside of EU, internally feuding, with declining population (since 1991 down already by 5-7 million or more), and living standards that are 1/3 or 1/4 of its neighbours (Poland, Russia, Hungary, … – not ‘Moldova’) then I would expect an admission that maybe Maidan made some mistakes. As of today, March 2019 – 5 years after Maidan – we are a lot closer to the second failing scenario. Let’s give it a few more years and see. But you don’t have ‘100 years’ – that’s irrational.

    • Agree: Denis
    • Replies: @AP

    With all due respect you literally know almost nothing about the Habsburg Empire
     
    And yet you failed to dispute any of the facts I presented, and resort to cheap insults.

    Your loud anti-peasant posturing
     
    LOL, I wrote nothing bad about peasants. I am 1/4 peasant.

    But you are lying/exaggerating as always. Or perhaps projecting. You were fond of writing about backward rural Ukrainians.


    himself feel better by ‘blue blood’ allusions...We are all mostly descended from peasants.
     
    Not everyone is a peasant you know. Unz is not Slovakia.

    geneological fantasies
     
    LOL. The picture of my grandfather's brother with Karl I is not a fantasy. Grandfather and his wife had zero peasant ancestors.

    and living standards that are 1/3 or 1/4 of its neighbours (Poland, Russia, Hungary, … – not ‘Moldova’) then I would expect an admission that maybe Maidan made some mistakes.
     
    You forgot Belarus - Ukraine is a little less than 1/2 of its GDP PPP.

    Ukraine had those living standards before Maidan so if the ratio is the same one can conclude that nothing changed economically but one can look at other changes.

    , @Thorfinnsson
    Had Franz Ferdinand lived and the tragedy of WWI been avoided, the Hapsburg Empire may have persisted and evolved into something like what the founders of the European Union wanted their project to turn into (before the Germans destroyed the dream).

    Franz Ferdinand's dream was for all his peoples to be able to fulfill their national aspirations within the empire.

    And why not?

    If anything the strongest obstacle to this wouldn't have been the Czechs, but rather the Hungarian government (and German civil servants in Bohemia).
  185. @Mr. Hack
    I wouldn't call them 'non-slavic' phenotypes, because all of the girls that took part in the program were Ukrainian. As Ukraine has a long history of being a melting pot of different ethnicities that have passed through this 'border' area, there are traces of many types, mingling with a strong Slavic undertone. In Central Ukraine, around Kyiv, there's what I like to categorize as the'classic' Ukrainian look. These are classic Caucasian beauties, tall with fair skin. They could easily be mistaken for the most beautiful French or English lovelies. Perhaps, a Circassian element is present there, such as was heavily present in Hetman Mazepa's lineage. Circassian women's beauty was the stuff of legend in ancient times. Scandinavian elements can be found throughout Ukraine, as the Vikings and later Charles XII left their DNA imprint. All of this, over a base of at least 80% pure Slavic beauty, no wonder men all over the world are drawn towards Ukraine and its bounty!

    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/e2/ce/53/e2ce53355dbc34faf4329ab691a9dc1a.jpg

    Western men who are hostile to Ukraine such as the majority of alt right should never be allowed access to any Ukrainian women.

    Btw, quite a few Ukrainian men are nice, too. 🙂

  186. Most of the alt right loves Ukraine. They see some chicks in wheatfields and some bumpkins giving Nazi salutes and they can’t help themselves.

    Ukrainians would wise to keep those weirdos away from their women, as would Russians with western Russophiles.

    • Replies: @LatW
    No, those are the identitarians and they're not the majority, they're ok.
  187. @AP

    They would have fled northward, to swampier and forested lands after the initial Mongol/Tatar onslaught – not move to Polish-ruled lands lying on the Mongol warpath.
     
    So they would have fled to inhospitable lands devastated by the Mongols and owned by them, rather than to lands touched less by them. Makes sense. Cities in Russia (other than Novgorod sand Pskov) were devastated by the Mongols. Lviv was not. It was too far, the local kings paid a ransom and were mostly left alone.

    And science proves you wrong. If there was mass population transfer to the North, one would expect that Russians in Moscow, Suzdal etc. would be just like ancient Kievans. But they are not. Modern Ukrainians are like ancient Kievans.

    This article about demographics of Galicia-Volynia indicates settlers fleeing there from thje Mongols, even from what are now Russian lands:

    https://web.archive.org/web/20070930155007/http://litopys.org.ua/krypgvol/krypgv03.htm

    There were refugees from Chernihiv, Kursk.

    not move to Polish-ruled lands lying on the Mongol warpath
     
    Galicia-Volhynia wasn't ruled by Poles until 100 years after the Mongol invasion.

    Territory of present-day Ukraine under Lithunian rule was depopulated to an extreme degree.
     
    And massively repopulated by people coming back from Volhynia and Galicia.

    “And science proves you wrong. If there was mass population transfer to the North, one would expect that Russians in Moscow, Suzdal etc. would be just like ancient Kievans. But they are not. Modern Ukrainians are like ancient Kievans.”
    Those Rus who fleed north may not have been numerous. Even if the migrants were numerous, those Kievans would not be the only people in those areas. Intermarriage between northward moving Rus, local Rus and local non-Rus would create a new genotype. For the genotype of Russia to have been identical to that of medieval Kiev would require a total population replacement.

    • Replies: @Beckow

    ...Intermarriage between northward moving Rus, local Rus and local non-Rus would create a new genotype.
     
    Intermarriage is a polite way to state it, it was probably more brutal. The usual pattern is that the incoming group quickly monopolises mating with local women; not only through violence, but with economic and social pressures to keep them from mating. There is always a rapid female betrayal - women have a low in-group loyalty and their main instinct is to seek security for their offspring. Nobody mates with rebels in the woods, that's a Hollywood myth.

    The R1a1 male DNA dominance - even in Northern Russia - suggests that the usual settler pattern occurred. The lack of R1b, I1 or Q haplogroups in the east go strongly against the 'Viking' and 'Mongol' narratives. R1a1, I2 and N male DNA there point to a Scythian-Sarmatian mixing with autochthonous populations, exactly as Herodotus wrote. The morphology of people there is distinctly local and I do agree that (our) women are stunning. It is pointless to compare their beauty, they are the best ones left in the world, sorry Venezuela.

    AP accuses me of everything under the sun because he has thin skin and doesn't understand that all feedback is a gift, he should cherish it. I will leave him with his Cholita algebra fantasies - Mexicanas with their superior PISA scores. I never thought I would see that thought expressed. Well, live and learn...

    , @AP
    I'm sure a small number fled north. The Church moved there because it was a more powerful center. But the idea that mass numbers of settlers did is fantasy. Russian nationalists once claimed this - everyone from Kiev moved to Suzdal so Kiev is really ours, the current inhabitants are not natives.
  188. @Rattus Norwegius
    "And science proves you wrong. If there was mass population transfer to the North, one would expect that Russians in Moscow, Suzdal etc. would be just like ancient Kievans. But they are not. Modern Ukrainians are like ancient Kievans."
    Those Rus who fleed north may not have been numerous. Even if the migrants were numerous, those Kievans would not be the only people in those areas. Intermarriage between northward moving Rus, local Rus and local non-Rus would create a new genotype. For the genotype of Russia to have been identical to that of medieval Kiev would require a total population replacement.

    …Intermarriage between northward moving Rus, local Rus and local non-Rus would create a new genotype.

    Intermarriage is a polite way to state it, it was probably more brutal. The usual pattern is that the incoming group quickly monopolises mating with local women; not only through violence, but with economic and social pressures to keep them from mating. There is always a rapid female betrayal – women have a low in-group loyalty and their main instinct is to seek security for their offspring. Nobody mates with rebels in the woods, that’s a Hollywood myth.

    The R1a1 male DNA dominance – even in Northern Russia – suggests that the usual settler pattern occurred. The lack of R1b, I1 or Q haplogroups in the east go strongly against the ‘Viking’ and ‘Mongol’ narratives. R1a1, I2 and N male DNA there point to a Scythian-Sarmatian mixing with autochthonous populations, exactly as Herodotus wrote. The morphology of people there is distinctly local and I do agree that (our) women are stunning. It is pointless to compare their beauty, they are the best ones left in the world, sorry Venezuela.

    AP accuses me of everything under the sun because he has thin skin and doesn’t understand that all feedback is a gift, he should cherish it. I will leave him with his Cholita algebra fantasies – Mexicanas with their superior PISA scores. I never thought I would see that thought expressed. Well, live and learn…

    • Agree: Anatoly Karlin
  189. @Epigon

    Regarding your ‘Rus’ ancestry. What is it exactly, are you what we call a ‘Rusin’?
     
    He is making a distinction between present-day Russians and medieval Russians, to whom he claims descent.
    Even though ever since the Mongol invasion and devastation of Rus'/Rusia/Russia/Rhos/Rossiya the population fled and moved to Muscovy, from serfs and peasants to Church hieararchs, townsfolk and nobility.
    Significant areas of present-day Ukraine were practically uninhabited by Slavs, being relegated to Wild Fields and threatened by hordes and slavers. Similarily, people fled persecution by Jesuits/Catholic rulers of Commonwealth, and abuse by magnates.

    In short, he is spreading the myth of Tatar and Mongol admixture in Russians of Russian Federation.

    …he is spreading the myth of Tatar and Mongol admixture in Russians

    I see. Why would an ‘admixture’ be so bad? I am sure there is a lot of Euro-Asian admixture in Russians. People are what they are, admixtures are a big part of us. I am very nationalist by any standard, I like my people, I like others who are like us, I even sometimes embrace the ‘xenophobe‘ term. Why wouldn’t I like my own people better than foreigners? Anyone who doesn’t is soft in the head – all normal people are xenophobic, it is in our genes.

    But my nationalism is based on the present – we, as we are today. Digging through history is interesting and amusing but there is no ‘purity’, and why would it even be desirable? The likes of AP should understand that the historical grievances and fantasies are self-defeating. But they won’t, and that’s how outsiders take over our societies.

    • Replies: @DFH

    I am sure there is a lot of Euro-Asian admixture in Russians
     
    Not really

    "Slavic speakers of Eastern Europe are, in general, very similar in their genetic composition. Ukrainians, Belarusians and Russians have almost identical proportions of Caucasus and Northern European components and have virtually no Asian influence. [...] Russians from Novosibirsk and Russian Starover exhibit ancestral proportions close to that of European Eastern Slavs, however, they also include between five to 10 % of Central Siberian ancestry, not present at this level in their European counterparts."
     
    http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/russians.html
    , @Adam
    Ethnic Russians, on average, have ~1% Asiatic DNA, no higher than in western Europe. Northern Russians are an exception in that they, like Finns and Estonians, have ~5% Siberian DNA.

    Claims of Asiatic descent have been used to dehumanize Russians and exclude them from European civilization. It's also one of the primary principles of Ukrainian nationalism that Russians have been tainted by Finnic and Turkic admixture and are not a Slavic people or descendants of Rus.

    The truth doesn't matter anyway, only myths. The idea that Russians are Asiatic has been a part of western discourse on Russians for centuries and will never go away, even if it's not quite acceptable to mention race in polite company anymore. If Russians are going to be treated like Mongols they ought to use Mongol tactics in dealing with their enemies.
    , @LatW
    You know that AP is a fully assimilated American with deep, slightly eccentric monarchist tendencies and that real Ukes in Ukraine couldn't care less about the Habsburgs. But this theater is very entertaining, thanks.
  190. @Beckow

    ...he is spreading the myth of Tatar and Mongol admixture in Russians
     
    I see. Why would an 'admixture' be so bad? I am sure there is a lot of Euro-Asian admixture in Russians. People are what they are, admixtures are a big part of us. I am very nationalist by any standard, I like my people, I like others who are like us, I even sometimes embrace the 'xenophobe' term. Why wouldn't I like my own people better than foreigners? Anyone who doesn't is soft in the head - all normal people are xenophobic, it is in our genes.

    But my nationalism is based on the present - we, as we are today. Digging through history is interesting and amusing but there is no 'purity', and why would it even be desirable? The likes of AP should understand that the historical grievances and fantasies are self-defeating. But they won't, and that's how outsiders take over our societies.

    I am sure there is a lot of Euro-Asian admixture in Russians

    Not really

    “Slavic speakers of Eastern Europe are, in general, very similar in their genetic composition. Ukrainians, Belarusians and Russians have almost identical proportions of Caucasus and Northern European components and have virtually no Asian influence. […] Russians from Novosibirsk and Russian Starover exhibit ancestral proportions close to that of European Eastern Slavs, however, they also include between five to 10 % of Central Siberian ancestry, not present at this level in their European counterparts.”

    http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/russians.html

    • Replies: @Beckow
    My point was not about the quantities of admixture, my point was that it doesn't matter that much, people are what they are.

    I also included the Euro in the Euro-Asian, mostly referring to the Uralic N haplotype that is indeed much stronger in Northern Russia than in Ukraine. N is remotely related to Asian groups and the ethno-genesis of N (Ugro-Finns) was somewhere in the Ural-Western Siberia. But today nobody really thinks of Finns, Estonians or Mordvins, etc...as being primarily Asian. (Well, maybe our resident aspiring blue blood, AP, looks down on them.)

  191. @neutral
    This is Miss Finland:
    http://www.returnofkings.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/amissh2-574x323.jpg

    I have zero doubts that the Cuckraine will have a black miss Ukraine within 10 years, the whole US cargo cultism thing is strong in that place.

    Now, technically she was only Miss Helsinki, which is at least semi-plausible since it is now filled with Africans and Arabs and some have no doubt had acid thrown in their faces.

    Although, to be fair, Miss Finland seems to have been won by mulatto with a Yoruba name and a hapa in previous years. Though, I believe a mulatto Hapa won in Japan once.

    The whole idea of these globalist beauty contests is absurd though. They are clearly favoring race-mixing and women who look like each other. Don’t expect a redheaded woman to ever win. Possibly a dark-haired white, but increasingly, light-skinned blacks and other Kalergi types.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    With Eurovision song contest, it almost seems like gays have started trolling Muslims.

    France has selected for Eurovision song contest, a gay transgender Muslim..

    At the same time, they are sending the gay Arab to perform in Tel Aviv.

    Some Muslim in France are protesting about this.

    But Israelis then responded by creating a television program about a gay French Muslim terrorist who enters the Eurovision song contest to perform an ISIS attack against Israel.

    So now France is saying they will boycott Israel's Eurovision song contest, if Israel does not cancel the television program which says their gay Muslim contestant is a terrorist.

    You think I am joking and have some crazy imagination, but this is real life.

    -

    Here is the gay Muslim France chose for their candidate.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCJRigN2DmI

    , @Beckow

    ...They are clearly favoring race-mixing and women who look like each other.
     
    They are also preferring certain races, more Sub-something, more preferred they are. Kalergi was a moron who dreamt about race-mixing extraordinaire. But he wasn't anti-white European per se - we were still in his vision as part of the mix. The current Kalergi enthusiasts are going much further, dilution to the point of disappearance. And once a Yoruba takes over Helsinki pageants, they are not allowed to go back, would be racist.

    Something similar has happened with Hollywood: once they go African or Mestizo, the pressure is to just stay there, look at this year's Oscars. Going back would be racist backsliding. The people of color are not good with numbers, they don't understand their share of population, so they want it all. (Of course, other than the Chicana PISA champions who are math geniuses, or so we are told.)

    , @Dmitry
    But isn't this "beauty" competition owned by Trump...

    It's why Trump was in Russia some years ago - he only visited because the Miss World competition was in Moscow then.

    Later all "Trump Russia" conspiracy theories were based on this visit (and that he supposedly hired prostitutes to piss on him, and Putin has a tape of this, and uses it to control Trump).

    But if Trump really had connections in Russia, he would have visited Russia a bit regularly, and not just once, and when he was busy because his beauty competition was there.

  192. @DFH

    I am sure there is a lot of Euro-Asian admixture in Russians
     
    Not really

    "Slavic speakers of Eastern Europe are, in general, very similar in their genetic composition. Ukrainians, Belarusians and Russians have almost identical proportions of Caucasus and Northern European components and have virtually no Asian influence. [...] Russians from Novosibirsk and Russian Starover exhibit ancestral proportions close to that of European Eastern Slavs, however, they also include between five to 10 % of Central Siberian ancestry, not present at this level in their European counterparts."
     
    http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/russians.html

    My point was not about the quantities of admixture, my point was that it doesn’t matter that much, people are what they are.

    I also included the Euro in the Euro-Asian, mostly referring to the Uralic N haplotype that is indeed much stronger in Northern Russia than in Ukraine. N is remotely related to Asian groups and the ethno-genesis of N (Ugro-Finns) was somewhere in the Ural-Western Siberia. But today nobody really thinks of Finns, Estonians or Mordvins, etc…as being primarily Asian. (Well, maybe our resident aspiring blue blood, AP, looks down on them.)

  193. @Beckow

    ...he is spreading the myth of Tatar and Mongol admixture in Russians
     
    I see. Why would an 'admixture' be so bad? I am sure there is a lot of Euro-Asian admixture in Russians. People are what they are, admixtures are a big part of us. I am very nationalist by any standard, I like my people, I like others who are like us, I even sometimes embrace the 'xenophobe' term. Why wouldn't I like my own people better than foreigners? Anyone who doesn't is soft in the head - all normal people are xenophobic, it is in our genes.

    But my nationalism is based on the present - we, as we are today. Digging through history is interesting and amusing but there is no 'purity', and why would it even be desirable? The likes of AP should understand that the historical grievances and fantasies are self-defeating. But they won't, and that's how outsiders take over our societies.

    Ethnic Russians, on average, have ~1% Asiatic DNA, no higher than in western Europe. Northern Russians are an exception in that they, like Finns and Estonians, have ~5% Siberian DNA.

    Claims of Asiatic descent have been used to dehumanize Russians and exclude them from European civilization. It’s also one of the primary principles of Ukrainian nationalism that Russians have been tainted by Finnic and Turkic admixture and are not a Slavic people or descendants of Rus.

    The truth doesn’t matter anyway, only myths. The idea that Russians are Asiatic has been a part of western discourse on Russians for centuries and will never go away, even if it’s not quite acceptable to mention race in polite company anymore. If Russians are going to be treated like Mongols they ought to use Mongol tactics in dealing with their enemies.

    • Replies: @aedib
    AFAIK, Russian have a slightly more Finnic input, Belarussian a slight more Baltid input and Ukrainians are a bit more mixed but they are by far the same people.
    , @LatW
    Some of that stems from the habit of calling people such as Dima Bilan Russian. Nice fellow, no doubt, just not Russian.
  194. @neutral
    This is Miss Finland:
    http://www.returnofkings.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/amissh2-574x323.jpg

    I have zero doubts that the Cuckraine will have a black miss Ukraine within 10 years, the whole US cargo cultism thing is strong in that place.

    LOL. She’s not only a “black Finn”. She’s also ugly. It seems that there is a mandate to select ugly women now. I still remember the loud campaign against “racists claims” when a black girl was selected as Miss Italy. She was not representative of Italian women but, at least, she was beautiful.

  195. If Russians are going to be treated like Mongols they ought to use Mongol tactics in dealing with their enemies.

    Well, that’s the whole point. The Principality of Suzdal and its later creation Moscow were the areas most in cahoots with their Mongol suzerains, until they stealthily were able to slowly shake off their yoke. No other part of the Rus Empire was known for its cruelty and barabrism as were the scions of this area. The total devestation of Kyiv and later Greater Novogorod are two classic examples of this. Most Eurasianists feel that Muscovy was itself just a continuation of the Golden Horde, therefore its domination of cultural and economic processes in the East is still considered par for the course.

    • Replies: @Adam
    Ukrainians massacred Russian civilians when they invaded on behalf of their Polish masters, a fact AP gloats about. Ukrainians are a weak people but give them a bit of power and their true nature comes out. Russians don't run out on the street and scream "hohols to the knife".

    Russia was never anymore cruel than the European norm. Some leaders were. As AK has pointed out, the Russian Empire was too nice for its own good. If they sent out death squads and killed 100,000, millions would be saved -including millions of your own people.

    If Russia was like the Mongols they would have annexed half of Ukraine, plundered the rest, and executed the maidanist and nationalist leadership. Though that's extreme for my tastes.
  196. @Adam
    Ethnic Russians, on average, have ~1% Asiatic DNA, no higher than in western Europe. Northern Russians are an exception in that they, like Finns and Estonians, have ~5% Siberian DNA.

    Claims of Asiatic descent have been used to dehumanize Russians and exclude them from European civilization. It's also one of the primary principles of Ukrainian nationalism that Russians have been tainted by Finnic and Turkic admixture and are not a Slavic people or descendants of Rus.

    The truth doesn't matter anyway, only myths. The idea that Russians are Asiatic has been a part of western discourse on Russians for centuries and will never go away, even if it's not quite acceptable to mention race in polite company anymore. If Russians are going to be treated like Mongols they ought to use Mongol tactics in dealing with their enemies.

    AFAIK, Russian have a slightly more Finnic input, Belarussian a slight more Baltid input and Ukrainians are a bit more mixed but they are by far the same people.

  197. @neutral
    This is Miss Finland:
    http://www.returnofkings.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/amissh2-574x323.jpg

    I have zero doubts that the Cuckraine will have a black miss Ukraine within 10 years, the whole US cargo cultism thing is strong in that place.

    She is not even attractive by the standards of black women.

    • Agree: reiner Tor
  198. @Mr. Hack

    If Russians are going to be treated like Mongols they ought to use Mongol tactics in dealing with their enemies.
     
    Well, that's the whole point. The Principality of Suzdal and its later creation Moscow were the areas most in cahoots with their Mongol suzerains, until they stealthily were able to slowly shake off their yoke. No other part of the Rus Empire was known for its cruelty and barabrism as were the scions of this area. The total devestation of Kyiv and later Greater Novogorod are two classic examples of this. Most Eurasianists feel that Muscovy was itself just a continuation of the Golden Horde, therefore its domination of cultural and economic processes in the East is still considered par for the course.

    Ukrainians massacred Russian civilians when they invaded on behalf of their Polish masters, a fact AP gloats about. Ukrainians are a weak people but give them a bit of power and their true nature comes out. Russians don’t run out on the street and scream “hohols to the knife”.

    Russia was never anymore cruel than the European norm. Some leaders were. As AK has pointed out, the Russian Empire was too nice for its own good. If they sent out death squads and killed 100,000, millions would be saved -including millions of your own people.

    If Russia was like the Mongols they would have annexed half of Ukraine, plundered the rest, and executed the maidanist and nationalist leadership. Though that’s extreme for my tastes.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    Don't forget about the resounding thrashing the Muscovites faired at the battle of Konotop:

    The bloom of Moscow's cavalry, troops that happily accomplished campaigns of year 54 and 55 have perished in one day — the victors got only about 5000 captive. The unfortunate were led onto an open space and slaughtered like lambs — that was the agreement between the Crimean Khan and the hetman of the Zaporozhian Cossacks! Never again was the tsar of Moscow able to master an army that strong. In mourning clothes showed himself Alexei Mikhailovich to the people and the terror seized Moscow
     
    Indeed, the Ukrainians could be a formidable foe if driven to it. A lesson that hopefully the current leaders within the Kremlin don't forget.
    , @AP

    Ukrainians massacred Russian civilians when they invaded on behalf of their Polish masters, a fact AP gloats about
     
    It's not gloating, it's pointing out the lack of brotherly feelings by these people.

    Russians don’t run out on the street and scream “hohols to the knife”.
     
    Well, they aren't the historical victims of Kiev's rule.

    Russia was never anymore cruel than the European norm.
     
    As colonials they were less cruel than the European norm.
  199. @songbird
    Now, technically she was only Miss Helsinki, which is at least semi-plausible since it is now filled with Africans and Arabs and some have no doubt had acid thrown in their faces.

    Although, to be fair, Miss Finland seems to have been won by mulatto with a Yoruba name and a hapa in previous years. Though, I believe a mulatto Hapa won in Japan once.

    The whole idea of these globalist beauty contests is absurd though. They are clearly favoring race-mixing and women who look like each other. Don't expect a redheaded woman to ever win. Possibly a dark-haired white, but increasingly, light-skinned blacks and other Kalergi types.

    With Eurovision song contest, it almost seems like gays have started trolling Muslims.

    France has selected for Eurovision song contest, a gay transgender Muslim..

    At the same time, they are sending the gay Arab to perform in Tel Aviv.

    Some Muslim in France are protesting about this.

    But Israelis then responded by creating a television program about a gay French Muslim terrorist who enters the Eurovision song contest to perform an ISIS attack against Israel.

    So now France is saying they will boycott Israel’s Eurovision song contest, if Israel does not cancel the television program which says their gay Muslim contestant is a terrorist.

    You think I am joking and have some crazy imagination, but this is real life.

    Here is the gay Muslim France chose for their candidate.

    • LOL: Anatoly Karlin
    • Replies: @LondonBob
    Only gays care about and watch Eurovision anyway.
    , @Anatoly Karlin
    https://twitter.com/fireboy01111/status/1108135888947740677
  200. @Adam
    Most of the alt right loves Ukraine. They see some chicks in wheatfields and some bumpkins giving Nazi salutes and they can't help themselves.

    Ukrainians would wise to keep those weirdos away from their women, as would Russians with western Russophiles.

    No, those are the identitarians and they’re not the majority, they’re ok.

  201. @songbird
    Now, technically she was only Miss Helsinki, which is at least semi-plausible since it is now filled with Africans and Arabs and some have no doubt had acid thrown in their faces.

    Although, to be fair, Miss Finland seems to have been won by mulatto with a Yoruba name and a hapa in previous years. Though, I believe a mulatto Hapa won in Japan once.

    The whole idea of these globalist beauty contests is absurd though. They are clearly favoring race-mixing and women who look like each other. Don't expect a redheaded woman to ever win. Possibly a dark-haired white, but increasingly, light-skinned blacks and other Kalergi types.

    …They are clearly favoring race-mixing and women who look like each other.

    They are also preferring certain races, more Sub-something, more preferred they are. Kalergi was a moron who dreamt about race-mixing extraordinaire. But he wasn’t anti-white European per se – we were still in his vision as part of the mix. The current Kalergi enthusiasts are going much further, dilution to the point of disappearance. And once a Yoruba takes over Helsinki pageants, they are not allowed to go back, would be racist.

    Something similar has happened with Hollywood: once they go African or Mestizo, the pressure is to just stay there, look at this year’s Oscars. Going back would be racist backsliding. The people of color are not good with numbers, they don’t understand their share of population, so they want it all. (Of course, other than the Chicana PISA champions who are math geniuses, or so we are told.)

    • Replies: @aedib
    Agreed.
    Best Actor winner: Rami Malek (an Egyptian performing a gay Parsi)
    Best Actor loser: Viggo Mortensen (a Danish-American performing an Italo-American)
    Best Supporting Actor: Mahershala Ali (a Black Muslim)

    Any similitude with Kalergi guidelines is just mere concidence.
  202. @Adam
    Ethnic Russians, on average, have ~1% Asiatic DNA, no higher than in western Europe. Northern Russians are an exception in that they, like Finns and Estonians, have ~5% Siberian DNA.

    Claims of Asiatic descent have been used to dehumanize Russians and exclude them from European civilization. It's also one of the primary principles of Ukrainian nationalism that Russians have been tainted by Finnic and Turkic admixture and are not a Slavic people or descendants of Rus.

    The truth doesn't matter anyway, only myths. The idea that Russians are Asiatic has been a part of western discourse on Russians for centuries and will never go away, even if it's not quite acceptable to mention race in polite company anymore. If Russians are going to be treated like Mongols they ought to use Mongol tactics in dealing with their enemies.

    Some of that stems from the habit of calling people such as Dima Bilan Russian. Nice fellow, no doubt, just not Russian.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    It's a very small and trivial translation issue, which somehow results in a lot of confusions.

    In America, you can often see a similar distinction, just more confusingly writing. Americans often use a hyphen instead e.g. Italian-American, African-American, but then WASPs (sort of titular nationality of all America), are always called American (without a hyphen). You don't see "English-Americans".

  203. @Adam
    Ukrainians massacred Russian civilians when they invaded on behalf of their Polish masters, a fact AP gloats about. Ukrainians are a weak people but give them a bit of power and their true nature comes out. Russians don't run out on the street and scream "hohols to the knife".

    Russia was never anymore cruel than the European norm. Some leaders were. As AK has pointed out, the Russian Empire was too nice for its own good. If they sent out death squads and killed 100,000, millions would be saved -including millions of your own people.

    If Russia was like the Mongols they would have annexed half of Ukraine, plundered the rest, and executed the maidanist and nationalist leadership. Though that's extreme for my tastes.

    Don’t forget about the resounding thrashing the Muscovites faired at the battle of Konotop:

    The bloom of Moscow’s cavalry, troops that happily accomplished campaigns of year 54 and 55 have perished in one day — the victors got only about 5000 captive. The unfortunate were led onto an open space and slaughtered like lambs — that was the agreement between the Crimean Khan and the hetman of the Zaporozhian Cossacks! Never again was the tsar of Moscow able to master an army that strong. In mourning clothes showed himself Alexei Mikhailovich to the people and the terror seized Moscow

    Indeed, the Ukrainians could be a formidable foe if driven to it. A lesson that hopefully the current leaders within the Kremlin don’t forget.

    • Replies: @Adam
    Slave morality victimhood when it suits you, triumphant cruelty when it doesn't. Thank you for proving my point.
  204. @Beckow

    ...he is spreading the myth of Tatar and Mongol admixture in Russians
     
    I see. Why would an 'admixture' be so bad? I am sure there is a lot of Euro-Asian admixture in Russians. People are what they are, admixtures are a big part of us. I am very nationalist by any standard, I like my people, I like others who are like us, I even sometimes embrace the 'xenophobe' term. Why wouldn't I like my own people better than foreigners? Anyone who doesn't is soft in the head - all normal people are xenophobic, it is in our genes.

    But my nationalism is based on the present - we, as we are today. Digging through history is interesting and amusing but there is no 'purity', and why would it even be desirable? The likes of AP should understand that the historical grievances and fantasies are self-defeating. But they won't, and that's how outsiders take over our societies.

    You know that AP is a fully assimilated American with deep, slightly eccentric monarchist tendencies and that real Ukes in Ukraine couldn’t care less about the Habsburgs. But this theater is very entertaining, thanks.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    I can't read all these posts, but Beckow is not happy about AP's unusual combination of Polish nationalism and pro-Habsburg sympathies.

    But AP only became a Polish nationalist a few months ago.

    Before that, he was not writing anything about Poland. His Polish nationalism is some recent phenomenon, and I'm not clear yet it will coherently match famous preexisting views of AP, such as the support for Spanish conquistadors* and of Nicholas II.


    -

    *In case of AP's monarchist views, anyway, shouldn't Cortes' torture and regicide of Emperor Cuauhtemoc, be one of the worst possible sins?

  205. @Mr. Hack
    Don't forget about the resounding thrashing the Muscovites faired at the battle of Konotop:

    The bloom of Moscow's cavalry, troops that happily accomplished campaigns of year 54 and 55 have perished in one day — the victors got only about 5000 captive. The unfortunate were led onto an open space and slaughtered like lambs — that was the agreement between the Crimean Khan and the hetman of the Zaporozhian Cossacks! Never again was the tsar of Moscow able to master an army that strong. In mourning clothes showed himself Alexei Mikhailovich to the people and the terror seized Moscow
     
    Indeed, the Ukrainians could be a formidable foe if driven to it. A lesson that hopefully the current leaders within the Kremlin don't forget.

    Slave morality victimhood when it suits you, triumphant cruelty when it doesn’t. Thank you for proving my point.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    Blah, blah, blah. :-)
  206. @Adam
    Slave morality victimhood when it suits you, triumphant cruelty when it doesn't. Thank you for proving my point.

    Blah, blah, blah. 🙂

    • Replies: @Adam
    Keep the cossack spirit alive in American suburbia, boomer.
  207. @songbird
    Now, technically she was only Miss Helsinki, which is at least semi-plausible since it is now filled with Africans and Arabs and some have no doubt had acid thrown in their faces.

    Although, to be fair, Miss Finland seems to have been won by mulatto with a Yoruba name and a hapa in previous years. Though, I believe a mulatto Hapa won in Japan once.

    The whole idea of these globalist beauty contests is absurd though. They are clearly favoring race-mixing and women who look like each other. Don't expect a redheaded woman to ever win. Possibly a dark-haired white, but increasingly, light-skinned blacks and other Kalergi types.

    But isn’t this “beauty” competition owned by Trump…

    It’s why Trump was in Russia some years ago – he only visited because the Miss World competition was in Moscow then.

    Later all “Trump Russia” conspiracy theories were based on this visit (and that he supposedly hired prostitutes to piss on him, and Putin has a tape of this, and uses it to control Trump).

    But if Trump really had connections in Russia, he would have visited Russia a bit regularly, and not just once, and when he was busy because his beauty competition was there.

    • Replies: @songbird
    Trump sold it in 2015 after NBC pulled their support based on his comments on illegal aliens. Not that it didn't have the same flavor before then - it did. Trump himself didn't create it, just bought it.

    It is one thing when a country with nothing much else like Venezuela or Columbia wins, but it is another thing when you realize they won because the system really likes mestizos and mulattoes, and those are the people increasingly winning in the U.S., Europe, and Japan.
  208. @Mr. Hack
    Blah, blah, blah. :-)

    Keep the cossack spirit alive in American suburbia, boomer.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    I live in the Big City. How about you Millennial? Are you a samovar polisher for boomer Putler? :-)
  209. @Beckow

    ...They are clearly favoring race-mixing and women who look like each other.
     
    They are also preferring certain races, more Sub-something, more preferred they are. Kalergi was a moron who dreamt about race-mixing extraordinaire. But he wasn't anti-white European per se - we were still in his vision as part of the mix. The current Kalergi enthusiasts are going much further, dilution to the point of disappearance. And once a Yoruba takes over Helsinki pageants, they are not allowed to go back, would be racist.

    Something similar has happened with Hollywood: once they go African or Mestizo, the pressure is to just stay there, look at this year's Oscars. Going back would be racist backsliding. The people of color are not good with numbers, they don't understand their share of population, so they want it all. (Of course, other than the Chicana PISA champions who are math geniuses, or so we are told.)

    Agreed.
    Best Actor winner: Rami Malek (an Egyptian performing a gay Parsi)
    Best Actor loser: Viggo Mortensen (a Danish-American performing an Italo-American)
    Best Supporting Actor: Mahershala Ali (a Black Muslim)

    Any similitude with Kalergi guidelines is just mere concidence.

    • Replies: @Beckow

    Any similitude with Kalergi guidelines is just mere concidence.
     
    I have always believed that any coincidence traced far enough back becomes inevitable. (That kind of defeats the whole free will doctrine, but St. Augustine was a drunk and debaucher in his youth, so what did he know?) We seem to be f..ed, let's fight some more among ourselves...
  210. Why don’t any of the Ukrainian nationalists live in Ukraine?

    • Replies: @AP
    Until AK moved to Moscow most Russian nationalists weren't from Russia (Martyanov, Saker). The nature of the English internet.
  211. @LatW
    You know that AP is a fully assimilated American with deep, slightly eccentric monarchist tendencies and that real Ukes in Ukraine couldn't care less about the Habsburgs. But this theater is very entertaining, thanks.

    I can’t read all these posts, but Beckow is not happy about AP’s unusual combination of Polish nationalism and pro-Habsburg sympathies.

    But AP only became a Polish nationalist a few months ago.

    Before that, he was not writing anything about Poland. His Polish nationalism is some recent phenomenon, and I’m not clear yet it will coherently match famous preexisting views of AP, such as the support for Spanish conquistadors* and of Nicholas II.

    *In case of AP’s monarchist views, anyway, shouldn’t Cortes’ torture and regicide of Emperor Cuauhtemoc, be one of the worst possible sins?

    • Replies: @German_reader

    shouldn’t Cortes’ torture and regicide of Emperor Cuauhtemoc
     
    That wasn't a pious Catholic monarch, but merely some tyrant presiding over a creepy death cult where they fattened weeping children in cages for sacrifice and consumption.
    AP's pro-Polish views are consistent though (also in matters like Poland's post-1945 borders) and have been noticeable much longer than just the last few months. I just wonder how common such views actually are in Poland and Ukraine, given the history of quite bloody Polish-Ukrainian ethnic conflict in the mid-20th century.
    , @Beckow
    The funny thing is that I am not usually that anti-Habsburg (and I really like Vienna). They were ok, mostly incompetents handed some really bad cards at the end. It is the combination of the parochial and provincial Galician-Polish nationalism with uninformed Habsburg worship that bothers me. They know nothing. They yearn for acceptance, one of the things that I find most disgusting among all of our central-eastern nations.

    It is also a strong part of our identity: to be told that we were 'better off' cleaning Habsburg stables because we were also allowed to listen to the waltzes! And by misguided American suburban dwellers with no concept of history - a bit too much. But AP will probably start again with his retarded comparisons to Spain or Mexican chicas, or tell us that we were 'murdered in mass', so I am letting it go.

    , @szopen

    unusual combination of Polish nationalism and pro-Habsburg sympathies.
     
    I don't comment on anything else except two things: first, this one sentence: this combination is not actually that uncommon in Poland.

    Second, AFAIK AP always was moderately pro-Polish, not Polish nationalist (neither he seems to eb Polish nationalist now). Just as many Polish nationalist are moderately pro-Ukrainian (not Ukrainian nationalists).

  212. @Dmitry
    I can't read all these posts, but Beckow is not happy about AP's unusual combination of Polish nationalism and pro-Habsburg sympathies.

    But AP only became a Polish nationalist a few months ago.

    Before that, he was not writing anything about Poland. His Polish nationalism is some recent phenomenon, and I'm not clear yet it will coherently match famous preexisting views of AP, such as the support for Spanish conquistadors* and of Nicholas II.


    -

    *In case of AP's monarchist views, anyway, shouldn't Cortes' torture and regicide of Emperor Cuauhtemoc, be one of the worst possible sins?

    shouldn’t Cortes’ torture and regicide of Emperor Cuauhtemoc

    That wasn’t a pious Catholic monarch, but merely some tyrant presiding over a creepy death cult where they fattened weeping children in cages for sacrifice and consumption.
    AP’s pro-Polish views are consistent though (also in matters like Poland’s post-1945 borders) and have been noticeable much longer than just the last few months. I just wonder how common such views actually are in Poland and Ukraine, given the history of quite bloody Polish-Ukrainian ethnic conflict in the mid-20th century.

    • Agree: AP
    • Replies: @German_reader
    btw, I hope my post above isn't open to misinterpretation...I actually agree that Christian-inspired kingship can't be compared to the grotesquely violent culture of the Aztecs.
    , @Dmitry
    Of course, it's not at all common in Ukraine (Ukrainian immigrants complain about how foreign they feel in Poland).

    And extremist Polish nationalists are organizing anti-Ukrainian protests and beating Ukrainian immigrants, calling them "Ukrainian cattle". (Although extreme Polish nationalists are angry with most of their neighbours, so Ukraine is nothing special).

    But in Ukrainian media, you can see sometimes admiration of Poland's ability to join NATO and receive money from Germany, within the EU common market, and now to become a relatively high income country where Ukrainians are going to work in the summer as fruit collectors.

  213. @aedib
    Agreed.
    Best Actor winner: Rami Malek (an Egyptian performing a gay Parsi)
    Best Actor loser: Viggo Mortensen (a Danish-American performing an Italo-American)
    Best Supporting Actor: Mahershala Ali (a Black Muslim)

    Any similitude with Kalergi guidelines is just mere concidence.

    Any similitude with Kalergi guidelines is just mere concidence.

    I have always believed that any coincidence traced far enough back becomes inevitable. (That kind of defeats the whole free will doctrine, but St. Augustine was a drunk and debaucher in his youth, so what did he know?) We seem to be f..ed, let’s fight some more among ourselves…

  214. @LatW
    Some of that stems from the habit of calling people such as Dima Bilan Russian. Nice fellow, no doubt, just not Russian.

    It’s a very small and trivial translation issue, which somehow results in a lot of confusions.

    In America, you can often see a similar distinction, just more confusingly writing. Americans often use a hyphen instead e.g. Italian-American, African-American, but then WASPs (sort of titular nationality of all America), are always called American (without a hyphen). You don’t see “English-Americans”.

  215. @Dmitry
    I can't read all these posts, but Beckow is not happy about AP's unusual combination of Polish nationalism and pro-Habsburg sympathies.

    But AP only became a Polish nationalist a few months ago.

    Before that, he was not writing anything about Poland. His Polish nationalism is some recent phenomenon, and I'm not clear yet it will coherently match famous preexisting views of AP, such as the support for Spanish conquistadors* and of Nicholas II.


    -

    *In case of AP's monarchist views, anyway, shouldn't Cortes' torture and regicide of Emperor Cuauhtemoc, be one of the worst possible sins?

    The funny thing is that I am not usually that anti-Habsburg (and I really like Vienna). They were ok, mostly incompetents handed some really bad cards at the end. It is the combination of the parochial and provincial Galician-Polish nationalism with uninformed Habsburg worship that bothers me. They know nothing. They yearn for acceptance, one of the things that I find most disgusting among all of our central-eastern nations.

    It is also a strong part of our identity: to be told that we were ‘better off‘ cleaning Habsburg stables because we were also allowed to listen to the waltzes! And by misguided American suburban dwellers with no concept of history – a bit too much. But AP will probably start again with his retarded comparisons to Spain or Mexican chicas, or tell us that we were ‘murdered in mass‘, so I am letting it go.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    Yes I love Vienna, and Salzburg as well.

    I remember I had a favourite tea cup with a picture of one of their emperors, bought in a tourist shop near the Prater. So I could almost become "pro-Habsburg" too.


    But AP will probably start again with his retarded comparisons to Spain or Mexican chicas,
     
    I'm not even sure AP is wrong here, if he says Mexicans are not always less civilized than Americans.

    Mexicans I met personally, are very charming and civilized (and I had a better impression from them, than from Americans I've met). In the media, our view about Mexicans is mainly through American cultural domination, and Americans might seem to perceive only the illegal Mexican peasants which clean their toilets, and not the more adequate representatives.

    In America of course, you see mainly small, poor Mexicans working quietly like slaves, in the lowest jobs, and it creates a natural sense of contempt for them in the Americans.

    , @AP

    But AP will probably start again with his retarded comparisons to Spain or Mexican chica
     
    You made a stupid comment about my math ability because of American education.

    I responded by posting data showing that Slovakia has worth PISA scores than even Hispanic Americans. (white Americans - better than all European countries other than Finland)

    This drove you crazy and for some reason you started mentioning Mexican women.
  216. @German_reader

    shouldn’t Cortes’ torture and regicide of Emperor Cuauhtemoc
     
    That wasn't a pious Catholic monarch, but merely some tyrant presiding over a creepy death cult where they fattened weeping children in cages for sacrifice and consumption.
    AP's pro-Polish views are consistent though (also in matters like Poland's post-1945 borders) and have been noticeable much longer than just the last few months. I just wonder how common such views actually are in Poland and Ukraine, given the history of quite bloody Polish-Ukrainian ethnic conflict in the mid-20th century.

    btw, I hope my post above isn’t open to misinterpretation…I actually agree that Christian-inspired kingship can’t be compared to the grotesquely violent culture of the Aztecs.

  217. @German_reader

    shouldn’t Cortes’ torture and regicide of Emperor Cuauhtemoc
     
    That wasn't a pious Catholic monarch, but merely some tyrant presiding over a creepy death cult where they fattened weeping children in cages for sacrifice and consumption.
    AP's pro-Polish views are consistent though (also in matters like Poland's post-1945 borders) and have been noticeable much longer than just the last few months. I just wonder how common such views actually are in Poland and Ukraine, given the history of quite bloody Polish-Ukrainian ethnic conflict in the mid-20th century.

    Of course, it’s not at all common in Ukraine (Ukrainian immigrants complain about how foreign they feel in Poland).

    And extremist Polish nationalists are organizing anti-Ukrainian protests and beating Ukrainian immigrants, calling them “Ukrainian cattle”. (Although extreme Polish nationalists are angry with most of their neighbours, so Ukraine is nothing special).

    But in Ukrainian media, you can see sometimes admiration of Poland’s ability to join NATO and receive money from Germany, within the EU common market, and now to become a relatively high income country where Ukrainians are going to work in the summer as fruit collectors.

    • Replies: @German_reader

    And extremist Polish nationalists are organizing anti-Ukrainian protests and beating Ukrainian immigrants, calling them “Ukrainian cattle”
     
    Is that really happening or is it made up/exaggerated by Russian media?
    I do kind of wonder though whether most people in Poland are that enthusiastic about Ukraine, most Polish commenters here don't seem to think that much about it (but then they're probably not a representative sample, like with probably all commenters on Unz review and their respective countries).
  218. @Adam
    Keep the cossack spirit alive in American suburbia, boomer.

    I live in the Big City. How about you Millennial? Are you a samovar polisher for boomer Putler? 🙂

    • Replies: @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan
    As a Russian, Putin is, by statistical definition, not a Baby Boomer.
  219. @Dmitry
    Of course, it's not at all common in Ukraine (Ukrainian immigrants complain about how foreign they feel in Poland).

    And extremist Polish nationalists are organizing anti-Ukrainian protests and beating Ukrainian immigrants, calling them "Ukrainian cattle". (Although extreme Polish nationalists are angry with most of their neighbours, so Ukraine is nothing special).

    But in Ukrainian media, you can see sometimes admiration of Poland's ability to join NATO and receive money from Germany, within the EU common market, and now to become a relatively high income country where Ukrainians are going to work in the summer as fruit collectors.

    And extremist Polish nationalists are organizing anti-Ukrainian protests and beating Ukrainian immigrants, calling them “Ukrainian cattle”

    Is that really happening or is it made up/exaggerated by Russian media?
    I do kind of wonder though whether most people in Poland are that enthusiastic about Ukraine, most Polish commenters here don’t seem to think that much about it (but then they’re probably not a representative sample, like with probably all commenters on Unz review and their respective countries).

    • Replies: @Dmitry

    Is that really happening or is it made up/exaggerated by Russian media?

     

    It's not Russian media, but Ukrainian media.

    And you can verify a little of the issues, from finding various idiotic looking protests online

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9N1VQpslKvU

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SDMJt99GsM


    most Polish commenters

     

    There's only Szopen I think? Funny thing I'm living this year, now, with some Polish housemates. I don't talk politics in real life. But I heard so far, nonprovoked, "I hate Putin, but not Russians".

    probably all commenters on Unz review

     

    Lol Gerard is the most normal person of all on Unz.
    , @Anatoly Karlin
    There was an amusing episode a couple of years ago in which a Ukrainian graffiti artist in Poland was chained up next to his "art" and forced to clean it off for nine hours.

    The police refused to launch a criminal investigation against the Poles who did that.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=339yJKoea94
    , @Beckow

    ...they’re probably not a representative sample, like with probably all commenters on Unz
     
    I am not sure there is such a thing when people engage on Unz level (relatively intelligent discourse). I think ideas should speak for themselves; associating ideas with different ethnic groups and evaluating them based on that is a slippery slope. All of us do it to some extent. When I discuss things with Polish people, I am often struck by their emotionalism and anger lurking right under the surface. It doesn't fit the Baltic region much.
  220. @Beckow
    The funny thing is that I am not usually that anti-Habsburg (and I really like Vienna). They were ok, mostly incompetents handed some really bad cards at the end. It is the combination of the parochial and provincial Galician-Polish nationalism with uninformed Habsburg worship that bothers me. They know nothing. They yearn for acceptance, one of the things that I find most disgusting among all of our central-eastern nations.

    It is also a strong part of our identity: to be told that we were 'better off' cleaning Habsburg stables because we were also allowed to listen to the waltzes! And by misguided American suburban dwellers with no concept of history - a bit too much. But AP will probably start again with his retarded comparisons to Spain or Mexican chicas, or tell us that we were 'murdered in mass', so I am letting it go.

    Yes I love Vienna, and Salzburg as well.

    I remember I had a favourite tea cup with a picture of one of their emperors, bought in a tourist shop near the Prater. So I could almost become “pro-Habsburg” too.

    But AP will probably start again with his retarded comparisons to Spain or Mexican chicas,

    I’m not even sure AP is wrong here, if he says Mexicans are not always less civilized than Americans.

    Mexicans I met personally, are very charming and civilized (and I had a better impression from them, than from Americans I’ve met). In the media, our view about Mexicans is mainly through American cultural domination, and Americans might seem to perceive only the illegal Mexican peasants which clean their toilets, and not the more adequate representatives.

    In America of course, you see mainly small, poor Mexicans working quietly like slaves, in the lowest jobs, and it creates a natural sense of contempt for them in the Americans.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    We're you able to see the Museum Anthropologia in Mexico City? What a monument to the great civilizations that graced the Mexican landscape in the past.
  221. @Dmitry
    Yes I love Vienna, and Salzburg as well.

    I remember I had a favourite tea cup with a picture of one of their emperors, bought in a tourist shop near the Prater. So I could almost become "pro-Habsburg" too.


    But AP will probably start again with his retarded comparisons to Spain or Mexican chicas,
     
    I'm not even sure AP is wrong here, if he says Mexicans are not always less civilized than Americans.

    Mexicans I met personally, are very charming and civilized (and I had a better impression from them, than from Americans I've met). In the media, our view about Mexicans is mainly through American cultural domination, and Americans might seem to perceive only the illegal Mexican peasants which clean their toilets, and not the more adequate representatives.

    In America of course, you see mainly small, poor Mexicans working quietly like slaves, in the lowest jobs, and it creates a natural sense of contempt for them in the Americans.

    We’re you able to see the Museum Anthropologia in Mexico City? What a monument to the great civilizations that graced the Mexican landscape in the past.

    • Replies: @Beckow

    ...Museum Anthropologia in Mexico City - What a monument to the great civilizations that graced the Mexican landscape in the past.
     
    You are being sarcastic, right? To call a bunch of murderous protein-craving savages who used to kill everything in sight (other humans) a civilization is a stretch. Let's see: no writing, no metallurgy, wheels without axles - not a civilization. Their gods were symbolized by thick, curling stone snakes - looking exactly like... (well you finish the thought).

    We make a mistake when we equalise things that are inherently unequal.
  222. @Dmitry
    But isn't this "beauty" competition owned by Trump...

    It's why Trump was in Russia some years ago - he only visited because the Miss World competition was in Moscow then.

    Later all "Trump Russia" conspiracy theories were based on this visit (and that he supposedly hired prostitutes to piss on him, and Putin has a tape of this, and uses it to control Trump).

    But if Trump really had connections in Russia, he would have visited Russia a bit regularly, and not just once, and when he was busy because his beauty competition was there.

    Trump sold it in 2015 after NBC pulled their support based on his comments on illegal aliens. Not that it didn’t have the same flavor before then – it did. Trump himself didn’t create it, just bought it.

    It is one thing when a country with nothing much else like Venezuela or Columbia wins, but it is another thing when you realize they won because the system really likes mestizos and mulattoes, and those are the people increasingly winning in the U.S., Europe, and Japan.

  223. @German_reader

    And extremist Polish nationalists are organizing anti-Ukrainian protests and beating Ukrainian immigrants, calling them “Ukrainian cattle”
     
    Is that really happening or is it made up/exaggerated by Russian media?
    I do kind of wonder though whether most people in Poland are that enthusiastic about Ukraine, most Polish commenters here don't seem to think that much about it (but then they're probably not a representative sample, like with probably all commenters on Unz review and their respective countries).

    Is that really happening or is it made up/exaggerated by Russian media?

    It’s not Russian media, but Ukrainian media.

    And you can verify a little of the issues, from finding various idiotic looking protests online

    most Polish commenters

    There’s only Szopen I think? Funny thing I’m living this year, now, with some Polish housemates. I don’t talk politics in real life. But I heard so far, nonprovoked, “I hate Putin, but not Russians”.

    probably all commenters on Unz review

    Lol Gerard is the most normal person of all on Unz.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    What's going on in the second video...are the people there Polish right-wingers singing an anti-Ukrainian song (I unfortunately don't know any Slavic languages, so the only thing I could make out were the references to Stepan Bandera, who obviously can't be a popular figure in Poland)?

    There’s only Szopen I think?
     
    I think there are a few others on Unz review who don't write that often. And Polish Perspective of course (though his views probably are atypical in Poland).
    , @Philip Owen
    There are people on Saker's blog who make Gerard look like a Boy Scout.
    , @szopen
    If "most Polish commenters" means "szopen" then, of course, most Polish commenters are rather pro-Ukrainian :D

    Personally I think that independent Ukraine is a good thing. There are however nationalists who think that Ukraine will be naturally allied with Germany against Poland, especially sicne Germany can offer Ukraine much more. Moreover, many nationalists I know, I read and watch indeed ARE rather anti-Ukrainian, which I consider rather a sad thing. Poland and Ukraine are natural allies, with similarly sized-populations, meaning we can actually be partners, without danger of dominating one another. Moreover, I think that any "intermarrium" coalition would be fantasy without Ukraine. Czech+Slovak+Hungary+Croatia+Slovenia still does not equalize Ukrainian population. Ukraine has a good potential, which is not realised right now, but under good government it can quickly develop.

    I am not happy about Volhynia and UPA glorification; in fact, since times immemorial in all discussions I suggested Poland should instead found Polish equivalent of "righteous between the nations" given to those many brave Ukrainians who were risking their lifes warning or saving Polish neighbours. Plus we could encourage the shifting to the first UPA (under they guy the name's I forgot right now).

    Given Polish economy, size and geopolitical situation, we must either accept being second-rate partner, or try to ally with Ukraine. Any other option is unrealistic and, in my opinion, is a daydreaming.


    As for "I hate Putin, not Russia" is quite common sentiment in Poland. Though I admit we have a really large contigent of real russophobes.

  224. @Dmitry
    With Eurovision song contest, it almost seems like gays have started trolling Muslims.

    France has selected for Eurovision song contest, a gay transgender Muslim..

    At the same time, they are sending the gay Arab to perform in Tel Aviv.

    Some Muslim in France are protesting about this.

    But Israelis then responded by creating a television program about a gay French Muslim terrorist who enters the Eurovision song contest to perform an ISIS attack against Israel.

    So now France is saying they will boycott Israel's Eurovision song contest, if Israel does not cancel the television program which says their gay Muslim contestant is a terrorist.

    You think I am joking and have some crazy imagination, but this is real life.

    -

    Here is the gay Muslim France chose for their candidate.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCJRigN2DmI

    Only gays care about and watch Eurovision anyway.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    Yes, but this is just the correct, English perspective to the competition.
    , @Philip Owen
    I would say women over 50 too.
  225. @Dmitry

    Is that really happening or is it made up/exaggerated by Russian media?

     

    It's not Russian media, but Ukrainian media.

    And you can verify a little of the issues, from finding various idiotic looking protests online

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9N1VQpslKvU

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SDMJt99GsM


    most Polish commenters

     

    There's only Szopen I think? Funny thing I'm living this year, now, with some Polish housemates. I don't talk politics in real life. But I heard so far, nonprovoked, "I hate Putin, but not Russians".

    probably all commenters on Unz review

     

    Lol Gerard is the most normal person of all on Unz.

    What’s going on in the second video…are the people there Polish right-wingers singing an anti-Ukrainian song (I unfortunately don’t know any Slavic languages, so the only thing I could make out were the references to Stepan Bandera, who obviously can’t be a popular figure in Poland)?

    There’s only Szopen I think?

    I think there are a few others on Unz review who don’t write that often. And Polish Perspective of course (though his views probably are atypical in Poland).

    • Replies: @Dmitry

    are the people there Polish right-wingers singing an anti-Ukrainian song
     
    Yes they say "Poland - anti Banderites".

    And then they're singing that Bandera is a prostitute of Hitler.
  226. @LondonBob
    Only gays care about and watch Eurovision anyway.

    Yes, but this is just the correct, English perspective to the competition.

  227. Yes, but this is just the correct, All-European, perspective to the competition.

    Fixed that for you.

  228. @Dmitry

    Is that really happening or is it made up/exaggerated by Russian media?

     

    It's not Russian media, but Ukrainian media.

    And you can verify a little of the issues, from finding various idiotic looking protests online

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9N1VQpslKvU

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SDMJt99GsM


    most Polish commenters

     

    There's only Szopen I think? Funny thing I'm living this year, now, with some Polish housemates. I don't talk politics in real life. But I heard so far, nonprovoked, "I hate Putin, but not Russians".

    probably all commenters on Unz review

     

    Lol Gerard is the most normal person of all on Unz.

    There are people on Saker’s blog who make Gerard look like a Boy Scout.

  229. @LondonBob
    Only gays care about and watch Eurovision anyway.

    I would say women over 50 too.

  230. Dmitry says: