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In one of my posts on the Age of Malthusian Industrialism, I pointed out that groups such as the Amish and the Mormons will be some of the first to become saturated with genotypic breeders:

This acceleration will be noticed first, and remain most pronounced – at least in relative terms – amongst already highly fertile tribes, such as the Amish, the Haredi Jews, and possibly the Mormons. They will become even more fertile and will see their numbers multiply fastest. However, their very low initial base precludes them from ever accounting for a substantial percentage of the world population, and this goes double for any of the marginal religious breeder sects.

Now, here is a map of how this may look like, courtesy of /pol/*:

Projecting forwards another century after 2100, and Mormonism may well have come to dominate the entire Western US, as opposed to just its Mountain heartlands.

The highest Amish range on this map is 8.1%-17.2% (dark green), versus 50%-66% (dark red) for the Mormons. So the Amish would not be dominating the Eastern US come 2120 like the Mormons would be in the Western US – or at least its non-metropolitan parts. By that time, the breeder transition should be in full swing even amongst the “normie” population, so the percentage of Amish should reach an asymptote well before they get anywhere near a majority in the Eastern US.

Despite their many strange beliefs and behaviors, I do not have a negative attitude towards Mormonism. It is in many respects the quintessential – and ultimate? – Anglo religion. As I pointed out on Robin Hanson’s blog, it is also highly compatible with transhumanism. Once the dysgenic dark ages of the third millennium are replaced by the reassertion of Malthusian selection for intelligence, conscientiousness, and frugality, we might expect this LDS civilization to be one of the first to reignite space technologies.

* Unfortunately, this being a /pol/ shitpost, there is no source. But I assume it’s accurate. It looks accurate to me. But let me know if something is off.

 
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  1. Please keep off topic posts to the current Open Thread.

    If you are new to my work, start here.

  2. By that time, the breeder transition should be in full swing even amongst the “normie” population, so the percentage of Amish should reach an asymptote well before they get anywhere near a majority in the Eastern US.

    I wouldn’t be so sure about that. After all, since the Amish would have had a head start in regards to this, their TFR might still be higher than that of the “normies” even after “normie” fertility rises back up to above replacement level.

  3. Is this diagram accurate?

    If Mormons really become the majority population in the Western side of America by the end of the 21st century, the area will be the world’s supreme, all dominating, superpower.

    Even in Mexico, Mormons seem to live well.

  4. The western US, like the rest of the US, will be a substantial majority non-white, and as far as I know there are no non-white Amish and few non-white Mormons — and certainly vanishingly few of either group among the massive immigration pool being admitted every year.

    In this scenario where the Amish become a majority, or even a plurality (the single biggest group, but not a majority), where have all the tens of millions of non-Amish Mexicans, Latin Americans, and Asians gone?

    I would be glad for this scenario to come to pass, but it doesn’t seem plausible at all unless non-Amish simply stop reproducing and stop immigrating here.

    • Replies: @AP

    In this scenario where the Amish become a majority, or even a plurality (the single biggest group, but not a majority), where have all the tens of millions of non-Amish Mexicans, Latin Americans, and Asians gone?
     
    Latino TFR is collapsing:

    https://ifstudies.org/ifs-admin/resources/fertilitydeclinesrace-w640.png
    , @Icy Blast
    RadicalCenter: Before throwing your two cents in on a topic like this, you might want to know just a little something about it. Please, act like a literate, intelligent person. You can start by turning off your TV set and then hurling it out the nearest window. Anyone who posts "The Western U.S., like the rest of the U.S., will be a substantial majority non-white..." is seriously brain-damaged. You can start your research by examining demographic maps published by the "U.S." government. Good luck! Persist in your rehab program and someday you might even learn to think!
    , @Thea
    Although overwhelmingly German, the Amish accept converts without regard to race. There are a few black and Indian Amish in Belize. Possibly in the US.
    , @Logan
    as far as I know there are ... few non-white Mormons

    Possibly in the US. But then only about a third of Mormons live in the US. Mormons have well over a century of missionary activity to Indians (feather), Polynesians, etc. They are, for instance, dominant in Samoa.

    In some Latin American countries they are a higher percentage of the population than in the US.

    I'm not sure how many non-whites in US are Mormon.

    https://www.mormonwiki.com/Demographics
  5. How does Sailors “most important graph in the world” factor into this? I assume that Mormon and Amish implies white, however their religion is cuckish and that means they will race mix as they continue to expand. If a million+ Africans end up entering America every year, then both Mormon and Amish will become a copy of Catholicism, a religion for the third world.

  6. it is also highly compatible with transhumanism.

    It is also highly compatible with open borders/one world.

  7. I was under the impression that Mormon fertility is beginning to crater as well.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Not to mention apostasy.
  8. Nemets says: • Website

    Mormon exceptionalism has been in great decline since 2008. The general trends affecting the rest of the population were just lagging 20 years. Support for homosexuality has risen dramatically, large number of nonwhite converts are settling in Utah, age of marriage has risen, and birth rates have fallen 15% in just 8 years.

    https://www.eivf.org/post/the-decline-of-utahs-fertility-rate

    The trends for the Amish are interesting. While birth rates remain much higher than the base American rate, it changes in response to the same general economic conditions. Good read on it below:

    https://medium.com/migration-issues/how-long-until-were-all-amish-268e3d0de87

    • Replies: @AP

    and birth rates have fallen 15% in just 8 years.
     
    Part of Utah's declining birth rate may be attributed to more non-Mormons moving there.
    , @Anatoly Karlin
    In addition to what AP said, trends for Utah seem to just be reflecting trends in the US as a whole (plus Mormon factor).
  9. anon[113] • Disclaimer says:

    The problem with LDS church is that the whole thing is brazen and transparent fake, done in modern times in full light of history.
    This matters – when high IQ and curious Mormon people got on the Internet for the first time, they found all the details about Joseph Smith, golden tablets and divine revelation they were not taught in Mormon church. Lots of them lost their faith and left the church.
    The phenomenon have its name, “internet apostasy”.

    http://archives.exmormon.org/Mormon-Church_admits-that-the-Internet-is-causing-members-to-leave

    https://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/21/us/some-mormons-search-the-web-and-find-doubt.html

    Unless LDS church somewhat manages to censor the Internet to silence the critics, this will not end.

    • Replies: @The Anti-Gnostic
    This site claims the leadership have given up on doctrine. My sense is they will eventually wind things down into conventional Protestantism.

    https://journeyofloyaldissent.wordpress.com/
    , @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan
    A religion that bans coffee, let alone booze, deserves to die a swift and embarrassing death. My word, even the Muslims AND the Amish let you drink coffee.
    , @dvorak

    they found all the details about Joseph Smith, golden tablets and divine revelation they were not taught in Mormon church
     
    Come on. The whole subtext to Joseph Smith as a prophet is: God chooses a fool to illuminate truth, for His own reasons. How Godlike for God to choose a con man/fool as His prophet.

    Smith is an obvious con man, but God imbues Smith's followers with faith nonetheless. See how that makes the faith even stronger and more impressive?

    Religious belief is filled with these paradoxes and dualities. Trying to debunk a paradox completely misses the point.
    , @ImmortalRationalist

    The problem with LDS church is that the whole thing is brazen and transparent fake
     
    So is all religion in general.
  10. @RadicalCenter
    The western US, like the rest of the US, will be a substantial majority non-white, and as far as I know there are no non-white Amish and few non-white Mormons -- and certainly vanishingly few of either group among the massive immigration pool being admitted every year.

    In this scenario where the Amish become a majority, or even a plurality (the single biggest group, but not a majority), where have all the tens of millions of non-Amish Mexicans, Latin Americans, and Asians gone?

    I would be glad for this scenario to come to pass, but it doesn't seem plausible at all unless non-Amish simply stop reproducing and stop immigrating here.

    In this scenario where the Amish become a majority, or even a plurality (the single biggest group, but not a majority), where have all the tens of millions of non-Amish Mexicans, Latin Americans, and Asians gone?

    Latino TFR is collapsing:

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
    Yes, and I’m very glad to hear it.

    But “Latinos” and Asians and Africans continue to pour in via illegal and legal immigration, hundreds of thousands per year easily. So the us population becomes less White European (and to a lesser extent, less English-speaking) every year, even if TFR were the same for whites here and nonwhites already here.

    Amish, Mormons, and any other European-descended peoples in the USA will never be a majority nationwide again anytime soon, if ever. But I’m glad they are there and who they are. Let’s hope they keep having babies and that not many of their children fall into the perversion, mental illness, and family-hating attitudes of so many other brainwashed white Americans.
  11. @Nemets
    Mormon exceptionalism has been in great decline since 2008. The general trends affecting the rest of the population were just lagging 20 years. Support for homosexuality has risen dramatically, large number of nonwhite converts are settling in Utah, age of marriage has risen, and birth rates have fallen 15% in just 8 years.

    https://www.eivf.org/post/the-decline-of-utahs-fertility-rate

    The trends for the Amish are interesting. While birth rates remain much higher than the base American rate, it changes in response to the same general economic conditions. Good read on it below:

    https://medium.com/migration-issues/how-long-until-were-all-amish-268e3d0de87

    and birth rates have fallen 15% in just 8 years.

    Part of Utah’s declining birth rate may be attributed to more non-Mormons moving there.

  12. @RadicalCenter
    The western US, like the rest of the US, will be a substantial majority non-white, and as far as I know there are no non-white Amish and few non-white Mormons -- and certainly vanishingly few of either group among the massive immigration pool being admitted every year.

    In this scenario where the Amish become a majority, or even a plurality (the single biggest group, but not a majority), where have all the tens of millions of non-Amish Mexicans, Latin Americans, and Asians gone?

    I would be glad for this scenario to come to pass, but it doesn't seem plausible at all unless non-Amish simply stop reproducing and stop immigrating here.

    RadicalCenter: Before throwing your two cents in on a topic like this, you might want to know just a little something about it. Please, act like a literate, intelligent person. You can start by turning off your TV set and then hurling it out the nearest window. Anyone who posts “The Western U.S., like the rest of the U.S., will be a substantial majority non-white…” is seriously brain-damaged. You can start your research by examining demographic maps published by the “U.S.” government. Good luck! Persist in your rehab program and someday you might even learn to think!

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
    You do sound like a fool yourself, and for what it’s worth, we haven’t had cable, satellite, whatever type of tv “service” for over a decade. But thanks for the advice, schmuck.

    In your tirade, you didn’t actually try to undermine anything that I said. Perhaps too busy watching tv yourself, I’m not sure.

    Do you have maps or other places where the fed gov recently predicts that whites will still be a majority in the USA in the future? Please cite and then explain the unfathomable “reasoning” or evidence to support such an odd prediction. “Learn to think!”

  13. Anonymous[339] • Disclaimer says:

    Some miscellaneous observations about the Amish:

    -Amish travel in packs when they are out amongst “the English” (i.e., anybody non-Amish); very rare to meet a lone Amish
    -When you enter a room with a lot of Amish present, you’ll know it: no deodorant + lots of physical labor makes them very ripe
    -Amish are physically unattractive by modern standards, probably due to inbreeding, lack of make-up and eccentric dress

    Overall though I admire their way of life.

    • Replies: @Almost Missouri

    "Amish are physically unattractive by modern standards, probably due to inbreeding, lack of make-up and eccentric dress"
     
    I would attribute it to:

    1) A Founder Effect inaugurated by kinda funny lookin' founders. In other words, the original Amish didn't join an odd cult then emigrate across the ocean because they were at the top of the social hierarchy they left.

    2) Boiling off of the most most attractive descendants as thy are the ones most likely to succumb to the temptations of the "English" world, as that world will offer them more than it will offer their less comely siblings.
  14. mongst already highly fertile tribes, such as the Amish, the Haredi Jews, and possibly the Mormons.

    In Russia there is a full analogue of the Amish – the sect of old believers.

    Since smart people are constantly escaping from these sects, such sectarians in the future will turn into hereditary idiots ( but very Nordic in appearance), and will serve the purposes of SJW propaganda.

    • Replies: @Starover
    I doubt that this will happen. Old believers have very old communities and they seem to do pretty well both financially and when it comes to fertility they are only matched with kavkaz tribes.

    I would love to read AK take on Old Believers.
    There were plenty prominent Starovers in Tsarist Russia.
    S. Morozov, M.Ryabushinsky, P. Shelaputin to name a few.
    It only shows that even fervent religious dedication don't hinder strive for science or wealth.

    , @Alexander Turok
    Smart people leave, no question, but there's also a continual outward flow of people who lack the intelligence and self-control to follow all the rules. I don't know which will dominate over the long term. Of course this only applies to religions which actually enforce their rules. If people feel free to identify with the sect despite not following any of the rules, you're just gonna get idiocracy.
    , @Dmitry
    These guys in your photo are from Brazil and Bolivia.

    So they can't be as stupid as they look, or they would not have survived in Bolivian jungle.

    Aside from surviving for generations in South America, they can probably speak at least two languages and are better organized at writing paperwork than most people (as they were successful at immigration).

  15. Yet another post about LDS? We may need to have an intervention.

  16. @melanf

    mongst already highly fertile tribes, such as the Amish, the Haredi Jews, and possibly the Mormons.
     
    In Russia there is a full analogue of the Amish - the sect of old believers.

    https://b.radikal.ru/b08/1906/cb/1ccdf611103b.jpg

    http://www.logoslovo.ru/media/pic_full/16/50420.jpg

    https://altapress.ru/afisha/image/width/580/1200-1293555600.jpeg

    http://s11.stc.all.kpcdn.net/share/i/12/7426363/inx960x640.jpg

    https://mtdata.ru/u24/photo7465/20722499820-0/original.jpg

    Since smart people are constantly escaping from these sects, such sectarians in the future will turn into hereditary idiots ( but very Nordic in appearance), and will serve the purposes of SJW propaganda.

    I doubt that this will happen. Old believers have very old communities and they seem to do pretty well both financially and when it comes to fertility they are only matched with kavkaz tribes.

    I would love to read AK take on Old Believers.
    There were plenty prominent Starovers in Tsarist Russia.
    S. Morozov, M.Ryabushinsky, P. Shelaputin to name a few.
    It only shows that even fervent religious dedication don’t hinder strive for science or wealth.

    • Replies: @AP
    Melanf hates peasants and doesn't like fervent religious belief.
    , @Anatoly Karlin
    I don't really have a lot to say about Old Believers, not been particularly closely acquainted with them. I did strike up a conversation with some Amish while on a train through Pennsylvania, but I don't think I've ever even talked to an Old Believer.

    Does anyone have concrete figures on their fertility rates? Kavkaz rates are quite different - around 2 in Dagestan and Ingushetia, closer to 3 in Chechnya. They also tend to be quite well educated, and don't have technophobia like the Amish. So I assume their fertility rates are nowhere near the Amish (5-6), and probably around Mormon levels (around 3). They are far lower as a share of Russia's population than Mormons, and don't have the ultra-high fertility rates of Amish, so I assume that they won't play a significant role in Russia's demographic future.
  17. Despite their many strange beliefs and behaviors, I do not have a negative attitude towards Mormonism. It is in many respects the quintessential – and ultimate? – Anglo religion.

    I have a negative attitude towards Mormonism because it is the quintessential Anglo religion.

    • Replies: @Yevardian
    Rabid levels of unreciprocated, unfounded and generally centuries out-of-date Anglophilia and Americanophilia is still extremely common amongst Russians unfortunately.

    At least it produced the Soviet Version of Sherlock Holmes with Livanon and Solonin though. I think Conan Doyle, Robert-Louis Stevenson, Dickens and Agatha Christie are far more popular in Russian than any Anglo country actually.

    , @Kent Nationalist
    Imagine disliking the most productive and accomplished European nation
  18. @Starover
    I doubt that this will happen. Old believers have very old communities and they seem to do pretty well both financially and when it comes to fertility they are only matched with kavkaz tribes.

    I would love to read AK take on Old Believers.
    There were plenty prominent Starovers in Tsarist Russia.
    S. Morozov, M.Ryabushinsky, P. Shelaputin to name a few.
    It only shows that even fervent religious dedication don't hinder strive for science or wealth.

    Melanf hates peasants and doesn’t like fervent religious belief.

  19. @RadicalCenter
    The western US, like the rest of the US, will be a substantial majority non-white, and as far as I know there are no non-white Amish and few non-white Mormons -- and certainly vanishingly few of either group among the massive immigration pool being admitted every year.

    In this scenario where the Amish become a majority, or even a plurality (the single biggest group, but not a majority), where have all the tens of millions of non-Amish Mexicans, Latin Americans, and Asians gone?

    I would be glad for this scenario to come to pass, but it doesn't seem plausible at all unless non-Amish simply stop reproducing and stop immigrating here.

    Although overwhelmingly German, the Amish accept converts without regard to race. There are a few black and Indian Amish in Belize. Possibly in the US.

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
    I’ve never heard that before. Source would be good, but I’ll check too.

    Not a promising development, if so.

    On a lighter note, why didn’t I move to an Amish town and meet girls on Rumspringa when i was Single? ;)
  20. Despite their many strange beliefs and behaviors, I do not have a negative attitude towards Mormonism. It is in many respects the quintessential – and ultimate? – Anglo religion.

    I think we should bear in mind that converts (already comprising a quarter of American Mormons) will progressively erode any existant exceptionalism.

    It will take some time, but ultimately I believe Mormonism will become as useless as Evangelicalism.

    And just like with Islam in Europe it doesn’t speak well for the social value of Mormon theology that they attract converts who are on average more subpar than the general population.

    • Replies: @anonymous

    And just like with Islam in Europe it doesn’t speak well for the social value of Mormon theology that they attract converts who are on average more subpar than the general population.
     
    Lol! The implication being that Islam does not satisfy the haloed degenerative standards of western social norms? ... the unabashed Promiscuity, the heavy Intoxication until you puke your guts out, the Usurious financial system, the Greed, the Psychopathy, the satanic Whitey Supremacy, etc.?

    Thank the Almighty One for that!!

    Subpar? Well, it is all a point of view, isn't it? In truth, your kind are subpar, whereas the western converts to Islam are blessed indeed. ;)

  21. @whahae

    Despite their many strange beliefs and behaviors, I do not have a negative attitude towards Mormonism. It is in many respects the quintessential – and ultimate? – Anglo religion.
     
    I have a negative attitude towards Mormonism because it is the quintessential Anglo religion.

    Rabid levels of unreciprocated, unfounded and generally centuries out-of-date Anglophilia and Americanophilia is still extremely common amongst Russians unfortunately.

    At least it produced the Soviet Version of Sherlock Holmes with Livanon and Solonin though. I think Conan Doyle, Robert-Louis Stevenson, Dickens and Agatha Christie are far more popular in Russian than any Anglo country actually.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    More of a Soviet-era generation preoccupation: http://www.unz.com/akarlin/russian-anglophilia/

    What’s interesting is that it is if anything more acute amongst the middle-aged “Soviet” generations, who are familiar with English literature. They expect to walk into a Jane Austen novel or something upon disembarking at Heathrow.
     
    The most ardent Anglophile I know is a 60 year old Phystech graduate/Sberbank sysadmin.
    , @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan
    Despite Herr Karlin's response to your comment, I am entirely of the opinion that only a true (if perhaps unaware) Anglophile could write that Mormonism is the quintessential Anglo religion, while implying that this is a good, or at least not negative, thing.

    The history of "Anglo religion" has been entirely negative for over 5 centuries.

  22. @AP

    In this scenario where the Amish become a majority, or even a plurality (the single biggest group, but not a majority), where have all the tens of millions of non-Amish Mexicans, Latin Americans, and Asians gone?
     
    Latino TFR is collapsing:

    https://ifstudies.org/ifs-admin/resources/fertilitydeclinesrace-w640.png

    Yes, and I’m very glad to hear it.

    But “Latinos” and Asians and Africans continue to pour in via illegal and legal immigration, hundreds of thousands per year easily. So the us population becomes less White European (and to a lesser extent, less English-speaking) every year, even if TFR were the same for whites here and nonwhites already here.

    Amish, Mormons, and any other European-descended peoples in the USA will never be a majority nationwide again anytime soon, if ever. But I’m glad they are there and who they are. Let’s hope they keep having babies and that not many of their children fall into the perversion, mental illness, and family-hating attitudes of so many other brainwashed white Americans.

    • Replies: @Thea
    we were a minority when our ancestors landed at Plymouth, then look what happened. Unexpected events could occur. My money is on a terrible pandemic , sadly but inevitably.
  23. @Icy Blast
    RadicalCenter: Before throwing your two cents in on a topic like this, you might want to know just a little something about it. Please, act like a literate, intelligent person. You can start by turning off your TV set and then hurling it out the nearest window. Anyone who posts "The Western U.S., like the rest of the U.S., will be a substantial majority non-white..." is seriously brain-damaged. You can start your research by examining demographic maps published by the "U.S." government. Good luck! Persist in your rehab program and someday you might even learn to think!

    You do sound like a fool yourself, and for what it’s worth, we haven’t had cable, satellite, whatever type of tv “service” for over a decade. But thanks for the advice, schmuck.

    In your tirade, you didn’t actually try to undermine anything that I said. Perhaps too busy watching tv yourself, I’m not sure.

    Do you have maps or other places where the fed gov recently predicts that whites will still be a majority in the USA in the future? Please cite and then explain the unfathomable “reasoning” or evidence to support such an odd prediction. “Learn to think!”

  24. @Thea
    Although overwhelmingly German, the Amish accept converts without regard to race. There are a few black and Indian Amish in Belize. Possibly in the US.

    I’ve never heard that before. Source would be good, but I’ll check too.

    Not a promising development, if so.

    On a lighter note, why didn’t I move to an Amish town and meet girls on Rumspringa when i was Single? 😉

    • Replies: @Thea
    If you trust Wikipedia, here is some info. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mennonites_in_Belize

    I saw a documentary about it a while ago but can’t recall the title.
  25. With their bizarre crypto-Christian belief system, it’s amazing that they’ve managed to grow as much as they have. But I don’t think that the implosion of the whole Western US with their cult system of belief is very realistic. In Arizona, the greatest proportion of these believers live in Mesa. Every once in a while, the TV news still flashes segments on renegade believers in the North that are involved in wholesale polygamy (!). Most of their congregationalists have some sort of LDS roots to begin with, and they seem to find it difficult to expand beyond their core indigenous ‘immigrant’ beginnings from Utah. Most folks with half a brain in their head stay away. You can still see their young missionaries stalking the streets of Phoenix, dressed in white shirts and ties, sweating away on their bicycles two at a time, sweating up a storm. They quit visiting me years ago (as have the Jehovah’ Witnesses). 🙂

    • Replies: @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan
    The Mormons have grown in America because America is a nation of suckers.

    Initially, it promised sex. I mean, they lie about it, but the single biggest reason men became Mormons before and partly after the Civil War was the promise of sex. Plain and simple.

    Now, I don't know much about their style now, but I suppose it's the promise of joining a community that can help you get rich, or at least be less poor (if you're a native of some Pacific island or something, like half the BYU football team).
  26. @whahae

    Despite their many strange beliefs and behaviors, I do not have a negative attitude towards Mormonism. It is in many respects the quintessential – and ultimate? – Anglo religion.
     
    I have a negative attitude towards Mormonism because it is the quintessential Anglo religion.

    Imagine disliking the most productive and accomplished European nation

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    English science - obviously superlative
    English literature - ergo
    English music - ultimately second-rate, but then so is everyone next to Germany
    English visual arts - underappreciated
    English philosophy - very practical, has many useful ideas, as opposed to useless French philosophy or worse than useless German philosophy (on balance)
    English cuisine - used to be surprisingly ok a century ago but ruined by rationing and socialism-lite

    Certainly the vigorous anti-Anglo signalling by some of the Alt Right (when actually serious) is rather bizarre.
    , @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan
    Like all reasonable Americans, I am grateful to Olde England for passing on to us our original political culture.

    But this culture was not without its seeds of death.

    Your country's government helped incite World War Two, and then helped get America into World War Two - admittedly with the help of our self-serving moron elites. American entry into World War Two was the most pivotal and most decisive moment in the ultimate destruction or severe curtailment of decent, peaceful, prosperous life in America. And it was a massively vital ingredient in the final destruction of Europe, the West, and, yes, England.

    England's products and accomplishments will go down in history as having been marred by an equal amount of hubris and self-destruction. I say this in sadness, because today marks a day on which one of my relatives was killed on Omaha Beach, in a war that ultimately saved nothing. It only destroyed.

    And this is all certainly in large part tied in with the rebellious nature of this supposedly helpful "Anglo religion," of which that ridiculous farce Joseph Smith was a flower.

    I hope St. Thomas Becket is having a good laugh at all of us.

  27. @RadicalCenter
    I’ve never heard that before. Source would be good, but I’ll check too.

    Not a promising development, if so.

    On a lighter note, why didn’t I move to an Amish town and meet girls on Rumspringa when i was Single? ;)

    If you trust Wikipedia, here is some info. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mennonites_in_Belize

    I saw a documentary about it a while ago but can’t recall the title.

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
    Thank you :) I’ll check it out.
  28. @RadicalCenter
    Yes, and I’m very glad to hear it.

    But “Latinos” and Asians and Africans continue to pour in via illegal and legal immigration, hundreds of thousands per year easily. So the us population becomes less White European (and to a lesser extent, less English-speaking) every year, even if TFR were the same for whites here and nonwhites already here.

    Amish, Mormons, and any other European-descended peoples in the USA will never be a majority nationwide again anytime soon, if ever. But I’m glad they are there and who they are. Let’s hope they keep having babies and that not many of their children fall into the perversion, mental illness, and family-hating attitudes of so many other brainwashed white Americans.

    we were a minority when our ancestors landed at Plymouth, then look what happened. Unexpected events could occur. My money is on a terrible pandemic , sadly but inevitably.

    • Replies: @Almost Missouri

    "we were a minority when our ancestors landed at Plymouth, then look what happened."
     
    Good point, but what happened was that mass migration of additional Europeans overwhelmed the hunter-gatherer indigenes.

    This time, the mass migration is reinforcing the hunter-gatherer/campesino-tier invaders.
  29. Anon[245] • Disclaimer says:

    It is in many respects the quintessential – and ultimate? – Anglo religion.

    This is assuming that Christianity wasn’t already that religion, given its hidden old testament historical narrative that anyone can find with a close reading of a combination ancient Anatolian history and the works of officially endorsed Catholic theologians.

    Realize as the Catholics, Mormons and Jews do, that Israel and Judah are two separate entities that did not have a close relationship. In fact, conflict was likely.

    How might the Jewish religion differ from the traditional Israelite religion, and where might the core goal of the traditional Israelite religion have gone and reappeared under a revised method?

    Realize as the Catholics do, that Exodus is a fake narrative to cover up a real history that is available on Wikipedia should you uncover the identity of the Israelites in Egypt (after that, trace that identity back through time). This is where a close reading of a certain Bible dictionary, endorsed with the imprimatur, will help.

    Realize what the Israelite religion is through realizing the sole sociopolitical outcome is that it is designed to effect. This is not a hidden goal.

    Research the fact that Joseph Smith was largely guided in creating the Mormon religion by a Jewish Rabbi.

    Mormon theology differs from traditional Christian theology in that is much closer reflects Jewish theology. This makes it an Anglo religion as re-imagined by Judah.

    Not the (Anglo) religion that Christianity has always been when traditionally in conflict with Judah.

    When attempting to gauge just how Anglo Mormonism actually is, perhaps attempt to gauge just how relatively well or poorly it has been received by the seat of Anglo power in Great Britain. Has it been enthusiastic and backed by State support, or less so?

    In contrast to the Anglos, do the Jews more enthusiastically support the Mormons than they do other Christian sects? The answer is yes.

  30. The animated data map is not implausible but I’d urge everyone to remember that what is important is the frequency of breeder alleles, not the specific religion. It’s possible Mormonism collapses under the globohomo internal push and Mormons join the Catholic Church or become evangelical, for example. If something happens which causes LDS to no longer protect against sterile consumption, then this map doesn’t happen. The important result is that LDS, Amishism, TLM Catholic and some other hardcore religious groups are frameworks for aggregating breeder genes under a given organizational label.

    I wonder how important the religion component is? Genes for religiosity are another avenue through which adaptive breeding behavior can be propagated, but what about non religious channels? Many rich men continue to breed into their 60s, they too inherit the earth right?

    • Agree: Anatoly Karlin
  31. @anon
    The problem with LDS church is that the whole thing is brazen and transparent fake, done in modern times in full light of history.
    This matters - when high IQ and curious Mormon people got on the Internet for the first time, they found all the details about Joseph Smith, golden tablets and divine revelation they were not taught in Mormon church. Lots of them lost their faith and left the church.
    The phenomenon have its name, "internet apostasy".

    http://archives.exmormon.org/Mormon-Church_admits-that-the-Internet-is-causing-members-to-leave

    https://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/21/us/some-mormons-search-the-web-and-find-doubt.html

    Unless LDS church somewhat manages to censor the Internet to silence the critics, this will not end.

    This site claims the leadership have given up on doctrine. My sense is they will eventually wind things down into conventional Protestantism.

    https://journeyofloyaldissent.wordpress.com/

  32. @melanf

    mongst already highly fertile tribes, such as the Amish, the Haredi Jews, and possibly the Mormons.
     
    In Russia there is a full analogue of the Amish - the sect of old believers.

    https://b.radikal.ru/b08/1906/cb/1ccdf611103b.jpg

    http://www.logoslovo.ru/media/pic_full/16/50420.jpg

    https://altapress.ru/afisha/image/width/580/1200-1293555600.jpeg

    http://s11.stc.all.kpcdn.net/share/i/12/7426363/inx960x640.jpg

    https://mtdata.ru/u24/photo7465/20722499820-0/original.jpg

    Since smart people are constantly escaping from these sects, such sectarians in the future will turn into hereditary idiots ( but very Nordic in appearance), and will serve the purposes of SJW propaganda.

    Smart people leave, no question, but there’s also a continual outward flow of people who lack the intelligence and self-control to follow all the rules. I don’t know which will dominate over the long term. Of course this only applies to religions which actually enforce their rules. If people feel free to identify with the sect despite not following any of the rules, you’re just gonna get idiocracy.

  33. @Nemets
    Mormon exceptionalism has been in great decline since 2008. The general trends affecting the rest of the population were just lagging 20 years. Support for homosexuality has risen dramatically, large number of nonwhite converts are settling in Utah, age of marriage has risen, and birth rates have fallen 15% in just 8 years.

    https://www.eivf.org/post/the-decline-of-utahs-fertility-rate

    The trends for the Amish are interesting. While birth rates remain much higher than the base American rate, it changes in response to the same general economic conditions. Good read on it below:

    https://medium.com/migration-issues/how-long-until-were-all-amish-268e3d0de87

    In addition to what AP said, trends for Utah seem to just be reflecting trends in the US as a whole (plus Mormon factor).

  34. Anonymous[258] • Disclaimer says:
    @Twinkie
    I was under the impression that Mormon fertility is beginning to crater as well.

    Not to mention apostasy.

  35. @Starover
    I doubt that this will happen. Old believers have very old communities and they seem to do pretty well both financially and when it comes to fertility they are only matched with kavkaz tribes.

    I would love to read AK take on Old Believers.
    There were plenty prominent Starovers in Tsarist Russia.
    S. Morozov, M.Ryabushinsky, P. Shelaputin to name a few.
    It only shows that even fervent religious dedication don't hinder strive for science or wealth.

    I don’t really have a lot to say about Old Believers, not been particularly closely acquainted with them. I did strike up a conversation with some Amish while on a train through Pennsylvania, but I don’t think I’ve ever even talked to an Old Believer.

    Does anyone have concrete figures on their fertility rates? Kavkaz rates are quite different – around 2 in Dagestan and Ingushetia, closer to 3 in Chechnya. They also tend to be quite well educated, and don’t have technophobia like the Amish. So I assume their fertility rates are nowhere near the Amish (5-6), and probably around Mormon levels (around 3). They are far lower as a share of Russia’s population than Mormons, and don’t have the ultra-high fertility rates of Amish, so I assume that they won’t play a significant role in Russia’s demographic future.

    • Replies: @Dmitry

    Old Believers,

     

    They receive lack of help, if not sometimes obstruction, from the authorities, and sometimes bullying from the church.

    It seems today there is obstruction to reconstitute even into cities which were their historical center like Ekaterinburg, because authorities don't permit returning their historical church buildings.

    They are far lower as a share of Russia’s population than Mormons, and don’t have the ultra-high fertility rates of Amish

     

    Mormons have vast political power, from their seat in one of the best states in America - and their church has tens of billions of dollars of assets.

    They also obsessed about things like science fiction, space travel and aliens, so their aesthetic might be quite adjusted for a second half of the 21st century.

    Mormons will takeover Ukraine first though.
    , @Phobos
    I haven't seen any concrete data on Old Believer TFR, but from the numerous documentaries and stories I've read of them, I would estimate it in the range of 6-10. There are about 400,000 of them according to the ARENA study from 2012, but that probably undercounts their real numbers in Russia because many of them are in isolated communities in Siberia.

    There's also an extensive diaspora. The highest estimate I've seen was 5.5 million for their global population; I think that's an exaggeration. Another estimate I've seen was 2 million. Most likely there's between 500,000 and 1 million of them globally. Their largest US community is Woodburn, OR where there's about 20,000 of them. There's likely 50,000-100,000 of them in the US, a few thousand in various Latin American states like Bolivia, Brazil etc. They do accept converts and are more open to this than Amish. The Amish are a virtually closed community. The total number of "English" converts into Amish is probably less than 100 all-time.

    Also, Amish fertility is higher than 5-6, usually 7-8.

    Also, one other writer wrote about "Amish" in Belize taking in converts. Those aren't Amish, those are Evangelical Mennonites, EMMC. They have nothing to do with Amish or the more traditional, "Russian" Mennonites. They're just cucked evangelicals and they're less than 10% of the Mennonite population in Belize. "Russian" Mennonites don't accept non-whites. Source: documentary.

  36. @Yevardian
    Rabid levels of unreciprocated, unfounded and generally centuries out-of-date Anglophilia and Americanophilia is still extremely common amongst Russians unfortunately.

    At least it produced the Soviet Version of Sherlock Holmes with Livanon and Solonin though. I think Conan Doyle, Robert-Louis Stevenson, Dickens and Agatha Christie are far more popular in Russian than any Anglo country actually.

    More of a Soviet-era generation preoccupation: http://www.unz.com/akarlin/russian-anglophilia/

    What’s interesting is that it is if anything more acute amongst the middle-aged “Soviet” generations, who are familiar with English literature. They expect to walk into a Jane Austen novel or something upon disembarking at Heathrow.

    The most ardent Anglophile I know is a 60 year old Phystech graduate/Sberbank sysadmin.

    • Replies: @Anonymoose
    Why in the next comment you talk about how you find Anti-Anglo signalling bizarre when you wrote that article complaining of rich Russian's Anglophillia. Seems contradictory.
  37. @Kent Nationalist
    Imagine disliking the most productive and accomplished European nation

    English science – obviously superlative
    English literature – ergo
    English music – ultimately second-rate, but then so is everyone next to Germany
    English visual arts – underappreciated
    English philosophy – very practical, has many useful ideas, as opposed to useless French philosophy or worse than useless German philosophy (on balance)
    English cuisine – used to be surprisingly ok a century ago but ruined by rationing and socialism-lite

    Certainly the vigorous anti-Anglo signalling by some of the Alt Right (when actually serious) is rather bizarre.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    The most intelligent philosopher of the UK, is from Scotland - David Hume, who was one of the "Great Philosophers".

    A few English philosophers - Hobbes, Locke - are interesting though (but not usually classified as "Great Philosophers").


    worse than useless German philosophy (on balance)
     
    Germany has very important philosophers - Leibniz, Schopenhauer, Nietzsche, Hegel, Marx, Kant.

    English music – ultimately second-rate, but then so is everyone next to Germany

     

    England is weak in music. But for music, France, Italy and Russia - are not second-rate to Germany

    In visual arts, England is also second-rate to France, Netherlands, Italy, Spain and Russia.


    English cuisine

     

    English are champions in many other areas though - games, business, exploration, fashion, gardening, law, pirates, etc. Even in urbanism, some parts of the best English cities are at an internationally high level.
    , @Anon

    Certainly the vigorous anti-Anglo signalling by some of the Alt Right (when actually serious) is rather bizarre.
     
    Alt-Right anti-Anglo sentiment is popular-reactionary and based on little evidence except for what the alphabet agencies (and maybe deeper authority that those) want the populace to see. Ie: the populace sees Anglo progressivism, the Anglo position in WWII, and an association with Jews and that is all that they need. Which, I grant, is a lot.

    However, it is foolish to think that what the populace sees is accurate. While I doubt that it is completely inaccurate, in a sense, I would sooner place my last dollar on the opposite of public perception being true in any sensitive geopolitical situation. I believe that the Art of War has been available in English for a long time now, as well as other similar texts on war strategy.

    Ergo, it would scare the shit out of me if I were a smarter Black man and saw White people, who were recently unapologetically imperialist and world-dominant in every sphere, giving the impression that they are now essentially in suicide-mode for my sake.

    , @Stolen Valor Detective

    English music – ultimately second-rate, but then so is everyone next to Germany
     
    Are you excluding popular music from this category?
    , @Denis

    English philosophy – very practical, has many useful ideas, as opposed to useless French philosophy or worse than useless German philosophy (on balance)
     
    Germans: Kant, Leibniz, Hegel, Nietzsche, Weber, etc.

    Frenchmen: Pascal, Voltaire, Rousseau, Descartes, Camus, etc.

    All completely useless lol.
    , @notanon

    Certainly the vigorous anti-Anglo signalling by some of the Alt Right (when actually serious) is rather bizarre.
     
    some of it is self-inflicted i.e. one too many jokes by anglos about other white groups

    some of it is probably the mirror effect i.e. i expect a lot of people were a bit anti-Sumerian when they were tallest poppy.
  38. @Anatoly Karlin
    English science - obviously superlative
    English literature - ergo
    English music - ultimately second-rate, but then so is everyone next to Germany
    English visual arts - underappreciated
    English philosophy - very practical, has many useful ideas, as opposed to useless French philosophy or worse than useless German philosophy (on balance)
    English cuisine - used to be surprisingly ok a century ago but ruined by rationing and socialism-lite

    Certainly the vigorous anti-Anglo signalling by some of the Alt Right (when actually serious) is rather bizarre.

    The most intelligent philosopher of the UK, is from Scotland – David Hume, who was one of the “Great Philosophers”.

    A few English philosophers – Hobbes, Locke – are interesting though (but not usually classified as “Great Philosophers”).

    worse than useless German philosophy (on balance)

    Germany has very important philosophers – Leibniz, Schopenhauer, Nietzsche, Hegel, Marx, Kant.

    English music – ultimately second-rate, but then so is everyone next to Germany

    England is weak in music. But for music, France, Italy and Russia – are not second-rate to Germany

    In visual arts, England is also second-rate to France, Netherlands, Italy, Spain and Russia.

    English cuisine

    English are champions in many other areas though – games, business, exploration, fashion, gardening, law, pirates, etc. Even in urbanism, some parts of the best English cities are at an internationally high level.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin

    worse than useless German philosophy (on balance)
     

    ... Schopenhauer, Nietzsche, Hegel, Marx, Kant.
     
    You left out the grandmaster of them all - Heidegger. But thank you for making my point.

    But for music, France, Italy and Russia – are not second-rate to Germany
     
    They pretty much are. Beethoven, Mozart (Austria), Bach, Handel, Haydn (Austria), Wagner - nobody else comes even close to having such a concentration of eminents. France has pretty much noone of that stature - ok, perhaps Debussy just squeezes in. Russia - Stravinsky and Tchaikovsky.
  39. @melanf

    mongst already highly fertile tribes, such as the Amish, the Haredi Jews, and possibly the Mormons.
     
    In Russia there is a full analogue of the Amish - the sect of old believers.

    https://b.radikal.ru/b08/1906/cb/1ccdf611103b.jpg

    http://www.logoslovo.ru/media/pic_full/16/50420.jpg

    https://altapress.ru/afisha/image/width/580/1200-1293555600.jpeg

    http://s11.stc.all.kpcdn.net/share/i/12/7426363/inx960x640.jpg

    https://mtdata.ru/u24/photo7465/20722499820-0/original.jpg

    Since smart people are constantly escaping from these sects, such sectarians in the future will turn into hereditary idiots ( but very Nordic in appearance), and will serve the purposes of SJW propaganda.

    These guys in your photo are from Brazil and Bolivia.

    So they can’t be as stupid as they look, or they would not have survived in Bolivian jungle.

    Aside from surviving for generations in South America, they can probably speak at least two languages and are better organized at writing paperwork than most people (as they were successful at immigration).

    • Replies: @melanf

    These guys in your photo are from Brazil and Bolivia.
    So they can’t be as stupid as they look, or they would not have survived in Bolivian jungle.
    Aside from surviving for generations in South America
     
    http://www.altai-starover.ru/gallery/photo0074.jpg

    Do birches grow in the Bolivian jungle? If no joke, it's (in foto above) not Brazil and not Bolivia, but the old believers of Altai. The photos are taken mostly from here
    http://www.altai-starover.ru/gallery/?page=1

    Real old believers from Bolivia (note to Karlin - who should be lured as migrants to Russia):

    http://starove.ru/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/starovery-v-urugvae36.jpg

    https://s00.yaplakal.com/pics/pics_original/1/8/1/10883181.jpg

    http://starove.ru/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/starovery-urugvaya2.jpg

    They also live in Alaska

  40. @Dmitry
    The most intelligent philosopher of the UK, is from Scotland - David Hume, who was one of the "Great Philosophers".

    A few English philosophers - Hobbes, Locke - are interesting though (but not usually classified as "Great Philosophers").


    worse than useless German philosophy (on balance)
     
    Germany has very important philosophers - Leibniz, Schopenhauer, Nietzsche, Hegel, Marx, Kant.

    English music – ultimately second-rate, but then so is everyone next to Germany

     

    England is weak in music. But for music, France, Italy and Russia - are not second-rate to Germany

    In visual arts, England is also second-rate to France, Netherlands, Italy, Spain and Russia.


    English cuisine

     

    English are champions in many other areas though - games, business, exploration, fashion, gardening, law, pirates, etc. Even in urbanism, some parts of the best English cities are at an internationally high level.

    worse than useless German philosophy (on balance)

    … Schopenhauer, Nietzsche, Hegel, Marx, Kant.

    You left out the grandmaster of them all – Heidegger. But thank you for making my point.

    But for music, France, Italy and Russia – are not second-rate to Germany

    They pretty much are. Beethoven, Mozart (Austria), Bach, Handel, Haydn (Austria), Wagner – nobody else comes even close to having such a concentration of eminents. France has pretty much noone of that stature – ok, perhaps Debussy just squeezes in. Russia – Stravinsky and Tchaikovsky.

    • Replies: @Dmitry

    You left out the grandmaster of them all – Heidegger. But thank you for making my point.

     

    Why? Heidegger was nonsense. But Germany produces some of the most significant philosophers in history, as I listed. And Germany produces Kant, the most important modern philosopher.

    Germany really was - once - "the land of thinkers".


    They pretty much are. Beethoven, Mozart (Austria), Bach, Handel, Haydn (Austria), Wagner
     
    Sure with Austrians -

    Beethoven, Mozart, Bach - first level.

    On the second level: Brahms, Schubert, Mendelssohn, Haydn, Schumann etc.

    On a third level people like Mahler, Wagner, Richard Strauss, Bruckner etc,.


    France has pretty much noone of that stature – ok, perhaps Debussy just squeezes in.

     

    Franck, Saint-Saens, Faure, Bizet, Berlioz.

    It's composers of some of most classic - or easy to like and popular with audiences at least - compositions of the 19th century.


    Russia – Stravinsky and Tchaikovsky.
     
    The greatest Russians: Tchaikovsky, Rachmaninov, Scriabin.
    , @Anonymoose
    Shocked you did not mention more russians: Rimsy Korsakov, Shostakovich, Rachmaninoff, Kachaturian(Armenian but Soviet regardless), Prokofiev. These guys are a legendary bunch who don't make Russia second rate to Germany. Let's not even get into ballet for France and Russia.
    , @melanf

    They pretty much are. Beethoven, Mozart (Austria), Bach, Handel, Haydn (Austria), Wagner – nobody else comes even close to having such a concentration of eminents. France has pretty much noone of that stature – ok, perhaps Debussy just squeezes in. Russia – Stravinsky and Tchaikovsky.
     
    can't agree with that. France had such composers as Bizet, Gounod, Saint-Saëns , Offenbach ( Les contes d'Hoffmann). In Russia (except Tchaikovsky) such figures as Rimsky-Korsakov, Musorgsky, Rachmaninoff, Glinka, Prokofiev. But Debussy and Stravinsky are really second-rate composers. Italy is also not inferior (in the field of music) to Germany-Austria
  41. @Anatoly Karlin
    I don't really have a lot to say about Old Believers, not been particularly closely acquainted with them. I did strike up a conversation with some Amish while on a train through Pennsylvania, but I don't think I've ever even talked to an Old Believer.

    Does anyone have concrete figures on their fertility rates? Kavkaz rates are quite different - around 2 in Dagestan and Ingushetia, closer to 3 in Chechnya. They also tend to be quite well educated, and don't have technophobia like the Amish. So I assume their fertility rates are nowhere near the Amish (5-6), and probably around Mormon levels (around 3). They are far lower as a share of Russia's population than Mormons, and don't have the ultra-high fertility rates of Amish, so I assume that they won't play a significant role in Russia's demographic future.

    Old Believers,

    They receive lack of help, if not sometimes obstruction, from the authorities, and sometimes bullying from the church.

    It seems today there is obstruction to reconstitute even into cities which were their historical center like Ekaterinburg, because authorities don’t permit returning their historical church buildings.

    They are far lower as a share of Russia’s population than Mormons, and don’t have the ultra-high fertility rates of Amish

    Mormons have vast political power, from their seat in one of the best states in America – and their church has tens of billions of dollars of assets.

    They also obsessed about things like science fiction, space travel and aliens, so their aesthetic might be quite adjusted for a second half of the 21st century.

    Mormons will takeover Ukraine first though.

    • Replies: @Philip Owen
    There are lots of Mormons in Saratov. There was a 19th C cult around Saratov that was classed as Mormon.
  42. @Anatoly Karlin

    worse than useless German philosophy (on balance)
     

    ... Schopenhauer, Nietzsche, Hegel, Marx, Kant.
     
    You left out the grandmaster of them all - Heidegger. But thank you for making my point.

    But for music, France, Italy and Russia – are not second-rate to Germany
     
    They pretty much are. Beethoven, Mozart (Austria), Bach, Handel, Haydn (Austria), Wagner - nobody else comes even close to having such a concentration of eminents. France has pretty much noone of that stature - ok, perhaps Debussy just squeezes in. Russia - Stravinsky and Tchaikovsky.

    You left out the grandmaster of them all – Heidegger. But thank you for making my point.

    Why? Heidegger was nonsense. But Germany produces some of the most significant philosophers in history, as I listed. And Germany produces Kant, the most important modern philosopher.

    Germany really was – once – “the land of thinkers”.

    They pretty much are. Beethoven, Mozart (Austria), Bach, Handel, Haydn (Austria), Wagner

    Sure with Austrians –

    Beethoven, Mozart, Bach – first level.

    On the second level: Brahms, Schubert, Mendelssohn, Haydn, Schumann etc.

    On a third level people like Mahler, Wagner, Richard Strauss, Bruckner etc,.

    France has pretty much noone of that stature – ok, perhaps Debussy just squeezes in.

    Franck, Saint-Saens, Faure, Bizet, Berlioz.

    It’s composers of some of most classic – or easy to like and popular with audiences at least – compositions of the 19th century.

    Russia – Stravinsky and Tchaikovsky.

    The greatest Russians: Tchaikovsky, Rachmaninov, Scriabin.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    Most influential composers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Accomplishment#Western_music
    8/10 German.

    Top 4 most popular composers in modern orchestra repertoires: Mozart, Beethoven, Bach, Tchaikovsky (3/4 German)

    German dominance in classical music seems obvious.

    I am not denying Germans had "great" thinkers. I am just claiming that someone like Adam Smith (Scottish, admittedly) was more useful, or at least less harmful, than all the Germans combined. Them having Marx alone drives them into net negative value added territory.

    The four Western philosophers that Yan Fu focused on - the most influential Chinese translator of Western texts - Thomas Henry Huxley (Darwin's bulldog), Adam Smith, Mill, Montesquieu. 3/4 British.
    , @reiner Tor

    On a third level people like Mahler, Wagner, Richard Strauss, Bruckner etc,.
     
    Each of these is significantly above both Mendelssohn and Schumann, and I’d think at least Wagner is close to Beethoven. As well as Mahler and Bruckner symphonies being at a similar or higher level than those of Beethoven.

    But I guess you just have a distaste for long and complex pieces, which is how Mahler, Wagner, Bruckner could end up as third rate in your world.
  43. @Dmitry

    You left out the grandmaster of them all – Heidegger. But thank you for making my point.

     

    Why? Heidegger was nonsense. But Germany produces some of the most significant philosophers in history, as I listed. And Germany produces Kant, the most important modern philosopher.

    Germany really was - once - "the land of thinkers".


    They pretty much are. Beethoven, Mozart (Austria), Bach, Handel, Haydn (Austria), Wagner
     
    Sure with Austrians -

    Beethoven, Mozart, Bach - first level.

    On the second level: Brahms, Schubert, Mendelssohn, Haydn, Schumann etc.

    On a third level people like Mahler, Wagner, Richard Strauss, Bruckner etc,.


    France has pretty much noone of that stature – ok, perhaps Debussy just squeezes in.

     

    Franck, Saint-Saens, Faure, Bizet, Berlioz.

    It's composers of some of most classic - or easy to like and popular with audiences at least - compositions of the 19th century.


    Russia – Stravinsky and Tchaikovsky.
     
    The greatest Russians: Tchaikovsky, Rachmaninov, Scriabin.

    Most influential composers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Accomplishment#Western_music
    8/10 German.

    Top 4 most popular composers in modern orchestra repertoires: Mozart, Beethoven, Bach, Tchaikovsky (3/4 German)

    German dominance in classical music seems obvious.

    I am not denying Germans had “great” thinkers. I am just claiming that someone like Adam Smith (Scottish, admittedly) was more useful, or at least less harmful, than all the Germans combined. Them having Marx alone drives them into net negative value added territory.

    The four Western philosophers that Yan Fu focused on – the most influential Chinese translator of Western texts – Thomas Henry Huxley (Darwin’s bulldog), Adam Smith, Mill, Montesquieu. 3/4 British.

    • Replies: @Dmitry

    Most influential composers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Accomplishment#Western_music
     
    Just because someone used a number for his/her opinion?

    First three in list I can understand. I think this is a crazy list though - Stravinsky higher than Chopin? How is Wagner so high? (He contributed influential harmonic innovations, but composed nothing outside opera - where after the overture you have quite repetitious, character/motif structured music).


    German dominance in classical music seems obvious.

     

    Italy is at least equally influential in development of music as Germany/Austria, just in different epochs. France is a little behind. In Russia - the influential is low, but there was perhaps the highest final peak achieved in some areas (e.g. late 19th century to early 20th century piano).

    Top 4 most popular composers in modern orchestra repertoires
     
    But orchestral popularity, is not determining. Chamber and solo music can be as important, if not sometimes more important.

    So, if you want to talk about a Piano Quintet (instead of orchestral music), for example - the most popular is by Franck .

    And for piano works in general - Rachmaninov and Scriabin are some of the world champions of their particular epoch.

    I am not denying Germans had “great” thinkers. I am just claiming that someone like Adam Smith (Scottish, admittedly) was more useful, or at least less harmful, than all the Germans combined.
     

    If philosophy is judged on harmful? Then Plato is a terrible philosopher because of things he wrote in Republic?

    the most influential Chinese translator of Western texts – Thomas Henry Huxley (Darwin’s bulldog), Adam Smith, Mill, Montesquieu. 3/4 British.
     
    Surely three of these are very interesting and important thinkers - Smith, Mill and Montesquieu.

    But they are not "Great Philosophers" (geniuses who transform philosophy).

    Hume was really a genius. What do you think about Locke and Hobbes? I've only skimmed their books. However, I don't believe they were at genius level of intelligence.

    In terms of English (excluding Scotland's) philosophy, there is perhaps no single great philosopher.

    , @E
    Most-referenced doesn't always mean "of best quality". In the written music tradition, composers who write for an internationally widespread type of ensemble/instrument (such as the symphony orchestra, or the solo piano) will always have a huge built-in distribution advantage. Likewise in the past, a Catholic mass would have a big distribution advantage when most of Europe was Catholic.

    Russia has some music that can't really travel internationally. For example, some of the beautiful songs written for the all-male orthodox church choir, by composers largely unknown to the outside world:
    Sheremetev, "Now the Powers of Heaven":
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Po2jkIW0tWs
    Golovanov "We Praise Thee":
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5EIdjTr3GK4

    Or some of the music written for the Russian folk orchestras, which I find lots of fun to listen to and wonderfully inventive (and the textural possibilities of this ensemble are no less rich than the symphony orchestra):
    A. Kurchenko, "Kamarinskaya":
    https://ipleer.fm/song/69005423/Russkie_uzory_-_Kamarinskaya_koncertnaya_pesa_na_russkuyu_temu_dlya_balalajki_s_orkestrom_A._Kurchenko/
    A. Shirokov, "Severnye perebory":
    https://ipleer.fm/song/124945170/Russkie_uzory_-_Severnye_perebory_na_temy_garmoshechnyh_naigryshej_S._Smetanina_A._SHirokov/

    Some of the best British composers are currently to be found in a similar sort of region-specific "exclusive neighborhood" - in the British brass band, or winds.
    For example, here's the wonderful "Call of the Cossacks" by Peter Graham:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3H5gOzU5eE
    Or something based on traditional British tunes, "Gaelforce" (a simpler piece, but quite memorable):
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5k_A0iIs6Q

    In addition, of course, that list says nothing about the unwritten music tradition, but it is precisely unwritten folk music that has always served as the foundation for elite written music (as described in "Roots of the Classical: The Popular Origins of Western Music" https://www.oxfordscholarship.com/view/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780198166474.001.0001/acprof-9780198166474 ) as well as master performer-improvisers in cultures whose most complex music is generally not written down (as in Arab and Persian lands, for example).
  44. @anon
    The problem with LDS church is that the whole thing is brazen and transparent fake, done in modern times in full light of history.
    This matters - when high IQ and curious Mormon people got on the Internet for the first time, they found all the details about Joseph Smith, golden tablets and divine revelation they were not taught in Mormon church. Lots of them lost their faith and left the church.
    The phenomenon have its name, "internet apostasy".

    http://archives.exmormon.org/Mormon-Church_admits-that-the-Internet-is-causing-members-to-leave

    https://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/21/us/some-mormons-search-the-web-and-find-doubt.html

    Unless LDS church somewhat manages to censor the Internet to silence the critics, this will not end.

    A religion that bans coffee, let alone booze, deserves to die a swift and embarrassing death. My word, even the Muslims AND the Amish let you drink coffee.

    • LOL: RadicalCenter
    • Replies: @Philip Owen
    There was the week at Hewlett Packard in Boise when the newly appointed Mormon building manager switched the, free, coffee machines to decaf without telling anyone. (Some Mormons will drink decaf). Boy, was my headache bad. I was far from the only one. He escaped executio . Just.
  45. @Yevardian
    Rabid levels of unreciprocated, unfounded and generally centuries out-of-date Anglophilia and Americanophilia is still extremely common amongst Russians unfortunately.

    At least it produced the Soviet Version of Sherlock Holmes with Livanon and Solonin though. I think Conan Doyle, Robert-Louis Stevenson, Dickens and Agatha Christie are far more popular in Russian than any Anglo country actually.

    Despite Herr Karlin’s response to your comment, I am entirely of the opinion that only a true (if perhaps unaware) Anglophile could write that Mormonism is the quintessential Anglo religion, while implying that this is a good, or at least not negative, thing.

    The history of “Anglo religion” has been entirely negative for over 5 centuries.

  46. @Kent Nationalist
    Imagine disliking the most productive and accomplished European nation

    Like all reasonable Americans, I am grateful to Olde England for passing on to us our original political culture.

    But this culture was not without its seeds of death.

    Your country’s government helped incite World War Two, and then helped get America into World War Two – admittedly with the help of our self-serving moron elites. American entry into World War Two was the most pivotal and most decisive moment in the ultimate destruction or severe curtailment of decent, peaceful, prosperous life in America. And it was a massively vital ingredient in the final destruction of Europe, the West, and, yes, England.

    England’s products and accomplishments will go down in history as having been marred by an equal amount of hubris and self-destruction. I say this in sadness, because today marks a day on which one of my relatives was killed on Omaha Beach, in a war that ultimately saved nothing. It only destroyed.

    And this is all certainly in large part tied in with the rebellious nature of this supposedly helpful “Anglo religion,” of which that ridiculous farce Joseph Smith was a flower.

    I hope St. Thomas Becket is having a good laugh at all of us.

    • Replies: @LondonBob
    No WWII was an FDR contrived war to make the world safe for Communism and Jews, as Herbert Hoover so ably demonstrated. America bled Europe and the British Empire dry. Hitler ably played the useful idiot in all this.
  47. anon[254] • Disclaimer says:

    Do not count on Mormons to resist the globohomo. Remember that LSD are major cource of recruits for all friendly three letter agencies.
    The Mormon church made several 180 degree turns in their teaching and practice in their history (polygamy, race etc.) The members that remained are used to obedience and following the party line.
    If the church receives new divine revelation that,for example, homosexuality is great, all Mormons will gladly fly rainbow flags everywhere and same sex marry everyone.

    • Replies: @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan

    Remember that LSD are major cource [sic] of recruits for all friendly three letter agencies.

     

    Really, this whole thread should just stop at this true remark of yours, and with this picture:

    http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnnnext/dam/assets/160808111703-anti-trump-republican-independent-bid-evan-mcmullin-dana-bash-lkl-at-this-hour-00010911-exlarge-169.jpg

    What an absolute farce!
    , @Anon

    Do not count on Mormons to resist the globohomo.
     
    No one is going to successfully resist globohomo.

    This is going to be taken to the apocalypse, which was always the aim.

    If one thinks that, starting with the the importation of slaves and then their emancipation, racial animosity has not been carefully stoked on both sides up to the present day then they have not been paying attention.

    I'm not stating that Blacks and Whites would do anything but kill one another or live very far apart if left unmolested by greater forces, but what has happened here is a seemingly intentional building and maintenance of tension that these groups would otherwise seek to defuse by short term war or distance.

    This tension maintenance includes tamping back annihilation of any one group while not allowing the groups to separate, all the while maximizing agitation between those groups.

    I have been reading the reporting and propaganda from both sides for a long time now. A lot of it has had the smell of institutional production when it was ostensibly supposed to be coming from independent and/or fringe reporters.

    Volume of reporting / article / book writing that was too high for one man, incessantly restated yet relatively unique messaging across supposedly independent channels, etc.

    My best guess is that "resistance" will be forcefully oppressed until the final hour of the final war. At which time both sides will be released toward mutual and total destruction. Be ready for the agitation to ramp up immensely leading up to that time in the form of: partisan corruption or possibly complete government dissolution, anti-White laws, Blacks being made more feral and poor (the first guarantees the second), an increasing sense of existential threat on the part of Whites, etc.

    The only ones who have the ability to diffuse this are the non-Whites, because Whites are the ones running away and the others are running toward. As has always been the case throughout history.

    To diffuse this situation and assure their survival as groups in contradiction to the prophecized outcomes of the apocalypse, non-Whites would have to accept a lack of entitlement to the products of White society and stop chasing.

    Because these races are not wired for that, that impulse will continue to be the central control point and this situation will be realize its finality in what the religious texts call the apocalypse.

    All of this is built into the implied narrative of the Apocalypse for Mormons and mainstream Christians. Some may have a deeper realization of what is happening and accept the inevitability of the apocalypse in anticipation of its promised results, but most are likely less logical and more faith driven. The social effect is the same in either case, and the result is that their drive to resist globohomo will be lesser as respective groups.

  48. @Mr. Hack
    With their bizarre crypto-Christian belief system, it's amazing that they've managed to grow as much as they have. But I don't think that the implosion of the whole Western US with their cult system of belief is very realistic. In Arizona, the greatest proportion of these believers live in Mesa. Every once in a while, the TV news still flashes segments on renegade believers in the North that are involved in wholesale polygamy (!). Most of their congregationalists have some sort of LDS roots to begin with, and they seem to find it difficult to expand beyond their core indigenous 'immigrant' beginnings from Utah. Most folks with half a brain in their head stay away. You can still see their young missionaries stalking the streets of Phoenix, dressed in white shirts and ties, sweating away on their bicycles two at a time, sweating up a storm. They quit visiting me years ago (as have the Jehovah' Witnesses). :-)

    https://youtu.be/-VKT4hrBTuk

    The Mormons have grown in America because America is a nation of suckers.

    Initially, it promised sex. I mean, they lie about it, but the single biggest reason men became Mormons before and partly after the Civil War was the promise of sex. Plain and simple.

    Now, I don’t know much about their style now, but I suppose it’s the promise of joining a community that can help you get rich, or at least be less poor (if you’re a native of some Pacific island or something, like half the BYU football team).

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    Since the highest court in the land has allowed gay marriages to stand, I don't see how they can possibly not allow polygamy to remain a taboo practice? What then? Will the LDS church revert back to its old ways?...
  49. @anon
    Do not count on Mormons to resist the globohomo. Remember that LSD are major cource of recruits for all friendly three letter agencies.
    The Mormon church made several 180 degree turns in their teaching and practice in their history (polygamy, race etc.) The members that remained are used to obedience and following the party line.
    If the church receives new divine revelation that,for example, homosexuality is great, all Mormons will gladly fly rainbow flags everywhere and same sex marry everyone.

    Remember that LSD are major cource [sic] of recruits for all friendly three letter agencies.

    Really, this whole thread should just stop at this true remark of yours, and with this picture:

    What an absolute farce!

  50. @Anatoly Karlin
    Most influential composers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Accomplishment#Western_music
    8/10 German.

    Top 4 most popular composers in modern orchestra repertoires: Mozart, Beethoven, Bach, Tchaikovsky (3/4 German)

    German dominance in classical music seems obvious.

    I am not denying Germans had "great" thinkers. I am just claiming that someone like Adam Smith (Scottish, admittedly) was more useful, or at least less harmful, than all the Germans combined. Them having Marx alone drives them into net negative value added territory.

    The four Western philosophers that Yan Fu focused on - the most influential Chinese translator of Western texts - Thomas Henry Huxley (Darwin's bulldog), Adam Smith, Mill, Montesquieu. 3/4 British.

    Most influential composers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Accomplishment#Western_music

    Just because someone used a number for his/her opinion?

    First three in list I can understand. I think this is a crazy list though – Stravinsky higher than Chopin? How is Wagner so high? (He contributed influential harmonic innovations, but composed nothing outside opera – where after the overture you have quite repetitious, character/motif structured music).

    German dominance in classical music seems obvious.

    Italy is at least equally influential in development of music as Germany/Austria, just in different epochs. France is a little behind. In Russia – the influential is low, but there was perhaps the highest final peak achieved in some areas (e.g. late 19th century to early 20th century piano).

    Top 4 most popular composers in modern orchestra repertoires

    But orchestral popularity, is not determining. Chamber and solo music can be as important, if not sometimes more important.

    So, if you want to talk about a Piano Quintet (instead of orchestral music), for example – the most popular is by Franck .

    And for piano works in general – Rachmaninov and Scriabin are some of the world champions of their particular epoch.

    I am not denying Germans had “great” thinkers. I am just claiming that someone like Adam Smith (Scottish, admittedly) was more useful, or at least less harmful, than all the Germans combined.

    If philosophy is judged on harmful? Then Plato is a terrible philosopher because of things he wrote in Republic?

    the most influential Chinese translator of Western texts – Thomas Henry Huxley (Darwin’s bulldog), Adam Smith, Mill, Montesquieu. 3/4 British.

    Surely three of these are very interesting and important thinkers – Smith, Mill and Montesquieu.

    But they are not “Great Philosophers” (geniuses who transform philosophy).

    Hume was really a genius. What do you think about Locke and Hobbes? I’ve only skimmed their books. However, I don’t believe they were at genius level of intelligence.

    In terms of English (excluding Scotland’s) philosophy, there is perhaps no single great philosopher.

    • Agree: utu
    • Replies: @Dmitry


    Most influential composers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Accomplishment#Western_m
     
    Just because someone used a number for his/her opinion?
     
    I admit this Wikipedia page is cool though.

    The list for Indian philosophy - I expect Nagarjuna would win. We need to read Adi Shankara apparently?


    https://i.imgur.com/upL5vQr.jpg

    , @reiner Tor

    How is Wagner so high? (He contributed influential harmonic innovations, but composed nothing outside opera
     
    Opera is by far the most complex thing to compose. Saying he “only” composed opera is like saying an airplane factory isn’t good at producing fighter planes, because it’s only capable of producing 5th gen stealth fighters. Or that a doctor is not very good at performing surgeries, he’s only good at brain surgery.

    after the overture you have quite repetitious, character/motif structured music).
     
    You can accuse Wagner of many things, but repetitive is certainly not something to come to mind. It’s not a Star Wars soundtrack, where Darth Vader always has the same music, the leitmotifs keep changing and getting interwoven into each other, as the operas progress, in a way which is pretty difficult to imagine how one person could write the score for without losing track of what he was doing. Heck, I sometimes forget mid-sentence what I was about to say!

    Chamber and solo music can be as important, if not sometimes more important.
     
    That’s true, but even there there’s some German over-representation, for example Bach, Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven, Schubert, Brahms are all popular and very good.

    But symphonies and especially operas are in general more complex and difficult to compose. (Not always true, Beethoven famously reserved his more difficult musical ideas for his quartets, and a Bartók quartet might be more subtle than most symphonies, but overall my point stands.)
  51. @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan
    The Mormons have grown in America because America is a nation of suckers.

    Initially, it promised sex. I mean, they lie about it, but the single biggest reason men became Mormons before and partly after the Civil War was the promise of sex. Plain and simple.

    Now, I don't know much about their style now, but I suppose it's the promise of joining a community that can help you get rich, or at least be less poor (if you're a native of some Pacific island or something, like half the BYU football team).

    Since the highest court in the land has allowed gay marriages to stand, I don’t see how they can possibly not allow polygamy to remain a taboo practice? What then? Will the LDS church revert back to its old ways?…

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    I meant:

    I don’t see how they can possibly allow polygamy to remain a taboo practice?

     

    Sorry.
    , @Anonymous
    Feminists hate polygamy due to its association with patriarchal societies. I'd be shocked if it became legal in my lifetime.
    , @Alexander Turok
    Humans have a boundless ability to ignore the "logical implications" of stuff. The court won't legalize polygamy because it doesn't want to: it's as simple as that.
    , @Almost Missouri
    I've been thinking this too, yet the legal polygamy needle hasn't moved too much. This may be partly due to the influence of feminism, as Anon above says. But it might also be that there is already a kind of soft polygamy of Alpha Harems, loosely among urban SWPLs, more pronouncedly among the black underclass, and semi-formally among some Muslim communities.

    In the UK, local councils are already quietly recognizing Muslim polygamous marriages for benefits distribution purposes. I suspect a similar dynamic will occur here, with special legal carve-outs for Muslim polygamy. In order to try to make ordinary law conform to these new woke exceptions, the corpse of traditional marriage will formally be mutilated out of all recognition.
  52. @Mr. Hack
    Since the highest court in the land has allowed gay marriages to stand, I don't see how they can possibly not allow polygamy to remain a taboo practice? What then? Will the LDS church revert back to its old ways?...

    I meant:

    I don’t see how they can possibly allow polygamy to remain a taboo practice?

    Sorry.

  53. @Dmitry

    Most influential composers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Accomplishment#Western_music
     
    Just because someone used a number for his/her opinion?

    First three in list I can understand. I think this is a crazy list though - Stravinsky higher than Chopin? How is Wagner so high? (He contributed influential harmonic innovations, but composed nothing outside opera - where after the overture you have quite repetitious, character/motif structured music).


    German dominance in classical music seems obvious.

     

    Italy is at least equally influential in development of music as Germany/Austria, just in different epochs. France is a little behind. In Russia - the influential is low, but there was perhaps the highest final peak achieved in some areas (e.g. late 19th century to early 20th century piano).

    Top 4 most popular composers in modern orchestra repertoires
     
    But orchestral popularity, is not determining. Chamber and solo music can be as important, if not sometimes more important.

    So, if you want to talk about a Piano Quintet (instead of orchestral music), for example - the most popular is by Franck .

    And for piano works in general - Rachmaninov and Scriabin are some of the world champions of their particular epoch.

    I am not denying Germans had “great” thinkers. I am just claiming that someone like Adam Smith (Scottish, admittedly) was more useful, or at least less harmful, than all the Germans combined.
     

    If philosophy is judged on harmful? Then Plato is a terrible philosopher because of things he wrote in Republic?

    the most influential Chinese translator of Western texts – Thomas Henry Huxley (Darwin’s bulldog), Adam Smith, Mill, Montesquieu. 3/4 British.
     
    Surely three of these are very interesting and important thinkers - Smith, Mill and Montesquieu.

    But they are not "Great Philosophers" (geniuses who transform philosophy).

    Hume was really a genius. What do you think about Locke and Hobbes? I've only skimmed their books. However, I don't believe they were at genius level of intelligence.

    In terms of English (excluding Scotland's) philosophy, there is perhaps no single great philosopher.

    Most influential composers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Accomplishment#Western_m

    Just because someone used a number for his/her opinion?

    I admit this Wikipedia page is cool though.

    The list for Indian philosophy – I expect Nagarjuna would win. We need to read Adi Shankara apparently?

  54. Anon[258] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anatoly Karlin
    English science - obviously superlative
    English literature - ergo
    English music - ultimately second-rate, but then so is everyone next to Germany
    English visual arts - underappreciated
    English philosophy - very practical, has many useful ideas, as opposed to useless French philosophy or worse than useless German philosophy (on balance)
    English cuisine - used to be surprisingly ok a century ago but ruined by rationing and socialism-lite

    Certainly the vigorous anti-Anglo signalling by some of the Alt Right (when actually serious) is rather bizarre.

    Certainly the vigorous anti-Anglo signalling by some of the Alt Right (when actually serious) is rather bizarre.

    Alt-Right anti-Anglo sentiment is popular-reactionary and based on little evidence except for what the alphabet agencies (and maybe deeper authority that those) want the populace to see. Ie: the populace sees Anglo progressivism, the Anglo position in WWII, and an association with Jews and that is all that they need. Which, I grant, is a lot.

    However, it is foolish to think that what the populace sees is accurate. While I doubt that it is completely inaccurate, in a sense, I would sooner place my last dollar on the opposite of public perception being true in any sensitive geopolitical situation. I believe that the Art of War has been available in English for a long time now, as well as other similar texts on war strategy.

    Ergo, it would scare the shit out of me if I were a smarter Black man and saw White people, who were recently unapologetically imperialist and world-dominant in every sphere, giving the impression that they are now essentially in suicide-mode for my sake.

    • LOL: fnn
    • Replies: @LondonBob
    Not even all European Christian immigrants really assimilated in America, even today many haven't despite residing there for generations. There was a lot of truth to the instincts of the first Americans to only allow immigration from North West Europe, ideally Protestants. America is a living breathing example of why freedom of movement in Europe is a terrible mistake and Brexit a necessity.
  55. Anon[316] • Disclaimer says:
    @anon
    Do not count on Mormons to resist the globohomo. Remember that LSD are major cource of recruits for all friendly three letter agencies.
    The Mormon church made several 180 degree turns in their teaching and practice in their history (polygamy, race etc.) The members that remained are used to obedience and following the party line.
    If the church receives new divine revelation that,for example, homosexuality is great, all Mormons will gladly fly rainbow flags everywhere and same sex marry everyone.

    Do not count on Mormons to resist the globohomo.

    No one is going to successfully resist globohomo.

    This is going to be taken to the apocalypse, which was always the aim.

    If one thinks that, starting with the the importation of slaves and then their emancipation, racial animosity has not been carefully stoked on both sides up to the present day then they have not been paying attention.

    I’m not stating that Blacks and Whites would do anything but kill one another or live very far apart if left unmolested by greater forces, but what has happened here is a seemingly intentional building and maintenance of tension that these groups would otherwise seek to defuse by short term war or distance.

    This tension maintenance includes tamping back annihilation of any one group while not allowing the groups to separate, all the while maximizing agitation between those groups.

    I have been reading the reporting and propaganda from both sides for a long time now. A lot of it has had the smell of institutional production when it was ostensibly supposed to be coming from independent and/or fringe reporters.

    Volume of reporting / article / book writing that was too high for one man, incessantly restated yet relatively unique messaging across supposedly independent channels, etc.

    My best guess is that “resistance” will be forcefully oppressed until the final hour of the final war. At which time both sides will be released toward mutual and total destruction. Be ready for the agitation to ramp up immensely leading up to that time in the form of: partisan corruption or possibly complete government dissolution, anti-White laws, Blacks being made more feral and poor (the first guarantees the second), an increasing sense of existential threat on the part of Whites, etc.

    The only ones who have the ability to diffuse this are the non-Whites, because Whites are the ones running away and the others are running toward. As has always been the case throughout history.

    To diffuse this situation and assure their survival as groups in contradiction to the prophecized outcomes of the apocalypse, non-Whites would have to accept a lack of entitlement to the products of White society and stop chasing.

    Because these races are not wired for that, that impulse will continue to be the central control point and this situation will be realize its finality in what the religious texts call the apocalypse.

    All of this is built into the implied narrative of the Apocalypse for Mormons and mainstream Christians. Some may have a deeper realization of what is happening and accept the inevitability of the apocalypse in anticipation of its promised results, but most are likely less logical and more faith driven. The social effect is the same in either case, and the result is that their drive to resist globohomo will be lesser as respective groups.

  56. Anonymous[339] • Disclaimer says:
    @Mr. Hack
    Since the highest court in the land has allowed gay marriages to stand, I don't see how they can possibly not allow polygamy to remain a taboo practice? What then? Will the LDS church revert back to its old ways?...

    Feminists hate polygamy due to its association with patriarchal societies. I’d be shocked if it became legal in my lifetime.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    With the introduction of gay marriages, the floodgates are now wide open. Use your imagination. Perhaps one woman and three husbands. Perhaps four wifes and three husbands. In a modern world shedding itself of its Christian heritage, with no moral boundaries, who's really to say what constitutes the institution of marriage. Look down the road 20 or more years...This could be our next US president:

    https://www.nydailynews.com/resizer/WVQI8lbbSvlwoJuhFGdao-2CKOw=/800x533/top/arc-anglerfish-arc2-prod-tronc.s3.amazonaws.com/public/5B6PFC3SAOYINQNPGTHUZP5ZPY.jpg

    Who would have thought that this could be possible 20 years ago?

  57. @Anatoly Karlin
    English science - obviously superlative
    English literature - ergo
    English music - ultimately second-rate, but then so is everyone next to Germany
    English visual arts - underappreciated
    English philosophy - very practical, has many useful ideas, as opposed to useless French philosophy or worse than useless German philosophy (on balance)
    English cuisine - used to be surprisingly ok a century ago but ruined by rationing and socialism-lite

    Certainly the vigorous anti-Anglo signalling by some of the Alt Right (when actually serious) is rather bizarre.

    English music – ultimately second-rate, but then so is everyone next to Germany

    Are you excluding popular music from this category?

  58. @Mr. Hack
    Since the highest court in the land has allowed gay marriages to stand, I don't see how they can possibly not allow polygamy to remain a taboo practice? What then? Will the LDS church revert back to its old ways?...

    Humans have a boundless ability to ignore the “logical implications” of stuff. The court won’t legalize polygamy because it doesn’t want to: it’s as simple as that.

  59. @Anonymous
    Feminists hate polygamy due to its association with patriarchal societies. I'd be shocked if it became legal in my lifetime.

    With the introduction of gay marriages, the floodgates are now wide open. Use your imagination. Perhaps one woman and three husbands. Perhaps four wifes and three husbands. In a modern world shedding itself of its Christian heritage, with no moral boundaries, who’s really to say what constitutes the institution of marriage. Look down the road 20 or more years…This could be our next US president:

    Who would have thought that this could be possible 20 years ago?

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    It's just about power.
    , @Mr. XYZ
    A one person, one robot marriage sounds reasonable, no?
    , @Anonymous
    Imo one of the key criteria the neoliberal establishment uses in deciding which causes to adopt is, does it annoy the archetypal male conservative? Polygamy, or lowering the age of consent from 18 to 16, let's say...an "Archie Bunker" type is probably not going to be bothered very much by that, ergo it's not interesting. We see the same thing with prostitution: there's really no big push to liberalize prostitution in the US, and if anything we've become less tolerant of it over the past few decades. Prostitution annoys women, therefore it's bad.

    The next big "social-justice" movements (aside from ongoing trans stuff) would probably be efforts to punish or humiliate men: increased crackdown on "rape" on college campuses, or a more expansive definition of workplace harassment (and increased EEOC regulation thereof), perhaps some efforts against porn. The great fantasy of the left in America is to find a way to get more white men (preferably middle class or above) in prison. Invariably black men will suffer disproportionately under any of these schemes, of course, but that's collateral damage.

    , @Logan
    Line marriage.

    https://www.shmoop.com/the-moon-is-a-harsh-mistress/line-marriage-symbol.html
  60. @Thea
    If you trust Wikipedia, here is some info. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mennonites_in_Belize

    I saw a documentary about it a while ago but can’t recall the title.

    Thank you 🙂 I’ll check it out.

  61. @Mr. Hack
    With the introduction of gay marriages, the floodgates are now wide open. Use your imagination. Perhaps one woman and three husbands. Perhaps four wifes and three husbands. In a modern world shedding itself of its Christian heritage, with no moral boundaries, who's really to say what constitutes the institution of marriage. Look down the road 20 or more years...This could be our next US president:

    https://www.nydailynews.com/resizer/WVQI8lbbSvlwoJuhFGdao-2CKOw=/800x533/top/arc-anglerfish-arc2-prod-tronc.s3.amazonaws.com/public/5B6PFC3SAOYINQNPGTHUZP5ZPY.jpg

    Who would have thought that this could be possible 20 years ago?

    It’s just about power.

  62. @Thea
    we were a minority when our ancestors landed at Plymouth, then look what happened. Unexpected events could occur. My money is on a terrible pandemic , sadly but inevitably.

    “we were a minority when our ancestors landed at Plymouth, then look what happened.”

    Good point, but what happened was that mass migration of additional Europeans overwhelmed the hunter-gatherer indigenes.

    This time, the mass migration is reinforcing the hunter-gatherer/campesino-tier invaders.

    • Replies: @Wency
    Mass migration was always the lesser factor. Natural increase overtook immigration as the primary cause of population growth in British North America by the 1650s. Less than 400,000 English migrated to the colonies, but their population exceeded 2 million by 1776. If the population hadn't exploded due to high TFR, white Americans would basically have remained a small minority in an Amerindian-dominated country.

    Natural increase always wins, particularly when a population that is breeding close to the natural limit is going up against one that is being decimated by disease, famine, warfare -- or just plain low TFR due to the mind-virus of modernity.
  63. anonymous[151] • Disclaimer says:
    @Hyperborean

    Despite their many strange beliefs and behaviors, I do not have a negative attitude towards Mormonism. It is in many respects the quintessential – and ultimate? – Anglo religion.
     
    I think we should bear in mind that converts (already comprising a quarter of American Mormons) will progressively erode any existant exceptionalism.

    https://assets.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/11/2012/07/Mormons7revised.gif

    It will take some time, but ultimately I believe Mormonism will become as useless as Evangelicalism.

    And just like with Islam in Europe it doesn't speak well for the social value of Mormon theology that they attract converts who are on average more subpar than the general population.

    And just like with Islam in Europe it doesn’t speak well for the social value of Mormon theology that they attract converts who are on average more subpar than the general population.

    Lol! The implication being that Islam does not satisfy the haloed degenerative standards of western social norms? … the unabashed Promiscuity, the heavy Intoxication until you puke your guts out, the Usurious financial system, the Greed, the Psychopathy, the satanic Whitey Supremacy, etc.?

    Thank the Almighty One for that!!

    Subpar? Well, it is all a point of view, isn’t it? In truth, your kind are subpar, whereas the western converts to Islam are blessed indeed. 😉

    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
    I'll leave it to others to judge how blessed the converts are, but you are quite right that modern western social norms are deeply subpar.
    , @Hyperborean
    Muslim chavs in Europe (and the autochtonous prison converts who imitate them) have more in common with American ghetto negroes than anything else.

    I know this because I had to live for a decade in such a place when growing up.

    But yeah, sure, let's go with "satanic Whitey Supremacy" [sic], I am sure it is much more comforting.

    , @Anon
    "Satanic" White supremacy? In our own nations? Good one. Stated like a true Semitic imperialist and supremacist.

    Whereas Islam is literally a mirror of Judaism that, like Judaism, is driving toward a world conflict in which most peoples are genocided. To include most Christians and Muslims.

    Keep in mind that none of this belief is rooted in anything real. This is all a mass psychotic drive toward world destruction, perpetuated by a mind virus that has survived from antiquity. Its goal is to end in mass genocide.

    Without Islam and Judaism, we could keep driving toward the stars.

    With Islam and Judaism, the world will eventually be reduced to rubble and we will again live like cave people and repeat history in a continuous loop.

    White people simply wish to keep inventing things like indoor plumbing, electricity, airplanes,and spaceships: which we can not do when giving up what we have (political control, lebensraum, other resources) after having been harassed continuously by non-Whites in our own nations.

    Of course, you are free to retreat to your own nations to perpetuate Satanic...whoops... I mean "righteous" Islamic, Black, Jewish etc supremacy, clip each others peckers and clitorises, not use deodorant, make chicken and goat sacrifices, torture and kill one another over religious disputes, and whatever else your godly religion dictates.

  64. @Anonymous
    Some miscellaneous observations about the Amish:

    -Amish travel in packs when they are out amongst "the English" (i.e., anybody non-Amish); very rare to meet a lone Amish
    -When you enter a room with a lot of Amish present, you'll know it: no deodorant + lots of physical labor makes them very ripe
    -Amish are physically unattractive by modern standards, probably due to inbreeding, lack of make-up and eccentric dress

    Overall though I admire their way of life.

    “Amish are physically unattractive by modern standards, probably due to inbreeding, lack of make-up and eccentric dress”

    I would attribute it to:

    1) A Founder Effect inaugurated by kinda funny lookin’ founders. In other words, the original Amish didn’t join an odd cult then emigrate across the ocean because they were at the top of the social hierarchy they left.

    2) Boiling off of the most most attractive descendants as thy are the ones most likely to succumb to the temptations of the “English” world, as that world will offer them more than it will offer their less comely siblings.

  65. @Mr. Hack
    Since the highest court in the land has allowed gay marriages to stand, I don't see how they can possibly not allow polygamy to remain a taboo practice? What then? Will the LDS church revert back to its old ways?...

    I’ve been thinking this too, yet the legal polygamy needle hasn’t moved too much. This may be partly due to the influence of feminism, as Anon above says. But it might also be that there is already a kind of soft polygamy of Alpha Harems, loosely among urban SWPLs, more pronouncedly among the black underclass, and semi-formally among some Muslim communities.

    In the UK, local councils are already quietly recognizing Muslim polygamous marriages for benefits distribution purposes. I suspect a similar dynamic will occur here, with special legal carve-outs for Muslim polygamy. In order to try to make ordinary law conform to these new woke exceptions, the corpse of traditional marriage will formally be mutilated out of all recognition.

  66. One undiscussed angle of the presumed Mormon dominance of the mountain West is that they will control the headwaters of all the important rivers watering everyone to their west. So, a mostly white Repub upstream people controlling the water supply to a vast downstream Dem population of Hispanics and Asians living in aridity. What could go wrong?

    I suspect the initial dynamic will be increasing demand by downstreamers that federal power force the upstreamers to to take less and deliver more, irrespective of prior interstate water compacts. The downstreamers large numbers will make this an effective tactic in a democracy. This will last as long as effective federal power does. Once federal power fails, then it will be resolved by force, with the well armed and organized upstreamers on the high ground still holding the spigot handles…

    • Agree: Anatoly Karlin
    • Replies: @dvorak

    One undiscussed angle of the presumed Mormon dominance of the mountain West is that they will control the headwaters of all the important rivers watering everyone to their west.
     
    Hetch Hetchy is spoken for.
  67. @anonymous

    And just like with Islam in Europe it doesn’t speak well for the social value of Mormon theology that they attract converts who are on average more subpar than the general population.
     
    Lol! The implication being that Islam does not satisfy the haloed degenerative standards of western social norms? ... the unabashed Promiscuity, the heavy Intoxication until you puke your guts out, the Usurious financial system, the Greed, the Psychopathy, the satanic Whitey Supremacy, etc.?

    Thank the Almighty One for that!!

    Subpar? Well, it is all a point of view, isn't it? In truth, your kind are subpar, whereas the western converts to Islam are blessed indeed. ;)

    I’ll leave it to others to judge how blessed the converts are, but you are quite right that modern western social norms are deeply subpar.

  68. @anonymous

    And just like with Islam in Europe it doesn’t speak well for the social value of Mormon theology that they attract converts who are on average more subpar than the general population.
     
    Lol! The implication being that Islam does not satisfy the haloed degenerative standards of western social norms? ... the unabashed Promiscuity, the heavy Intoxication until you puke your guts out, the Usurious financial system, the Greed, the Psychopathy, the satanic Whitey Supremacy, etc.?

    Thank the Almighty One for that!!

    Subpar? Well, it is all a point of view, isn't it? In truth, your kind are subpar, whereas the western converts to Islam are blessed indeed. ;)

    Muslim chavs in Europe (and the autochtonous prison converts who imitate them) have more in common with American ghetto negroes than anything else.

    I know this because I had to live for a decade in such a place when growing up.

    But yeah, sure, let’s go with “satanic Whitey Supremacy” [sic], I am sure it is much more comforting.

  69. @Anatoly Karlin
    I don't really have a lot to say about Old Believers, not been particularly closely acquainted with them. I did strike up a conversation with some Amish while on a train through Pennsylvania, but I don't think I've ever even talked to an Old Believer.

    Does anyone have concrete figures on their fertility rates? Kavkaz rates are quite different - around 2 in Dagestan and Ingushetia, closer to 3 in Chechnya. They also tend to be quite well educated, and don't have technophobia like the Amish. So I assume their fertility rates are nowhere near the Amish (5-6), and probably around Mormon levels (around 3). They are far lower as a share of Russia's population than Mormons, and don't have the ultra-high fertility rates of Amish, so I assume that they won't play a significant role in Russia's demographic future.

    I haven’t seen any concrete data on Old Believer TFR, but from the numerous documentaries and stories I’ve read of them, I would estimate it in the range of 6-10. There are about 400,000 of them according to the ARENA study from 2012, but that probably undercounts their real numbers in Russia because many of them are in isolated communities in Siberia.

    There’s also an extensive diaspora. The highest estimate I’ve seen was 5.5 million for their global population; I think that’s an exaggeration. Another estimate I’ve seen was 2 million. Most likely there’s between 500,000 and 1 million of them globally. Their largest US community is Woodburn, OR where there’s about 20,000 of them. There’s likely 50,000-100,000 of them in the US, a few thousand in various Latin American states like Bolivia, Brazil etc. They do accept converts and are more open to this than Amish. The Amish are a virtually closed community. The total number of “English” converts into Amish is probably less than 100 all-time.

    Also, Amish fertility is higher than 5-6, usually 7-8.

    Also, one other writer wrote about “Amish” in Belize taking in converts. Those aren’t Amish, those are Evangelical Mennonites, EMMC. They have nothing to do with Amish or the more traditional, “Russian” Mennonites. They’re just cucked evangelicals and they’re less than 10% of the Mennonite population in Belize. “Russian” Mennonites don’t accept non-whites. Source: documentary.

  70. @Mr. Hack
    With the introduction of gay marriages, the floodgates are now wide open. Use your imagination. Perhaps one woman and three husbands. Perhaps four wifes and three husbands. In a modern world shedding itself of its Christian heritage, with no moral boundaries, who's really to say what constitutes the institution of marriage. Look down the road 20 or more years...This could be our next US president:

    https://www.nydailynews.com/resizer/WVQI8lbbSvlwoJuhFGdao-2CKOw=/800x533/top/arc-anglerfish-arc2-prod-tronc.s3.amazonaws.com/public/5B6PFC3SAOYINQNPGTHUZP5ZPY.jpg

    Who would have thought that this could be possible 20 years ago?

    A one person, one robot marriage sounds reasonable, no?

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    I used to have a cat that I really liked (loved?). :-)
  71. @anon
    The problem with LDS church is that the whole thing is brazen and transparent fake, done in modern times in full light of history.
    This matters - when high IQ and curious Mormon people got on the Internet for the first time, they found all the details about Joseph Smith, golden tablets and divine revelation they were not taught in Mormon church. Lots of them lost their faith and left the church.
    The phenomenon have its name, "internet apostasy".

    http://archives.exmormon.org/Mormon-Church_admits-that-the-Internet-is-causing-members-to-leave

    https://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/21/us/some-mormons-search-the-web-and-find-doubt.html

    Unless LDS church somewhat manages to censor the Internet to silence the critics, this will not end.

    they found all the details about Joseph Smith, golden tablets and divine revelation they were not taught in Mormon church

    Come on. The whole subtext to Joseph Smith as a prophet is: God chooses a fool to illuminate truth, for His own reasons. How Godlike for God to choose a con man/fool as His prophet.

    Smith is an obvious con man, but God imbues Smith’s followers with faith nonetheless. See how that makes the faith even stronger and more impressive?

    Religious belief is filled with these paradoxes and dualities. Trying to debunk a paradox completely misses the point.

    • Replies: @anon
    This is argument of Bruce Charlton (weirdo English guy with impeccable HBDIQ scientific credentials, who also believes in elves, dwarves, fairies and angel Moroni)

    TL;DR of his proof: Mormons are good people, good citizens, good neighbours, good high IQ people who breed like wabbits, the Mormon church is great positive force in the world. Book of Mormon is great work of art that inspired millions and set their souls aflame.
    Clearly, such great thing cannot be just con job of some uneducated fraudster. It must be true revelation from loving Heavenly Father and Mother.

    Here the full version of approximately 25,000 words
    http://theoreticalmormon.blogspot.com/
  72. @Almost Missouri
    One undiscussed angle of the presumed Mormon dominance of the mountain West is that they will control the headwaters of all the important rivers watering everyone to their west. So, a mostly white Repub upstream people controlling the water supply to a vast downstream Dem population of Hispanics and Asians living in aridity. What could go wrong?

    I suspect the initial dynamic will be increasing demand by downstreamers that federal power force the upstreamers to to take less and deliver more, irrespective of prior interstate water compacts. The downstreamers large numbers will make this an effective tactic in a democracy. This will last as long as effective federal power does. Once federal power fails, then it will be resolved by force, with the well armed and organized upstreamers on the high ground still holding the spigot handles...

    One undiscussed angle of the presumed Mormon dominance of the mountain West is that they will control the headwaters of all the important rivers watering everyone to their west.

    Hetch Hetchy is spoken for.

  73. @Dmitry
    These guys in your photo are from Brazil and Bolivia.

    So they can't be as stupid as they look, or they would not have survived in Bolivian jungle.

    Aside from surviving for generations in South America, they can probably speak at least two languages and are better organized at writing paperwork than most people (as they were successful at immigration).

    These guys in your photo are from Brazil and Bolivia.
    So they can’t be as stupid as they look, or they would not have survived in Bolivian jungle.
    Aside from surviving for generations in South America


    Do birches grow in the Bolivian jungle? If no joke, it’s (in foto above) not Brazil and not Bolivia, but the old believers of Altai. The photos are taken mostly from here
    http://www.altai-starover.ru/gallery/?page=1

    Real old believers from Bolivia (note to Karlin – who should be lured as migrants to Russia):

    They also live in Alaska

  74. it seems strange that anatoly does these culture war projections in the future for other entire countries (poland will be the UK politically in 20 years, see here, all the trend lines are the same, just behind 2 decades. poles will embrace globohomo, brown invaders, self hatred). analysis which i think has some merit.

    but he thinks the mormons will be immune to that process or takes it for granted the mormons and amish will just keep increasing in numbers about at the present rate. when we already have data that they aren’t and won’t.

    like the other posters, i think the next 10 democrat presidents straight will swamp with US with 300 million brown third wordlers, so breeder religionists won’t make a dent in what the actual future of ‘america’ is.

    the interesting battle of the latter 21st century will be who will take control of the US. i don’t see jews maintaining control. the mexicans, africans, and muslims all battling for the smoldering husk of the formerly WASP nation with guys like the 2060 version of mitt romney merely a sideshow. some dork who does protest votes in the senate as utah has the last couple republican senators.

    • Replies: @Phobos
    You have to factor that the only regions of the world that will still be growing in the second half of this century will be Africa and sections of the Middle East. It usually takes about 40 years after passing the point of sub-replacement fertility for a population to start declining in absolute terms. Usually, within 20 years after sub-replacement, countries start pushing for immigration due to labor shortages.

    Of the ten most populous countries today, only Nigeria and Pakistan will still be growing after 2070. Even countries like India will begin shrinking around 2060-2070 in absolute terms.

    The future will be a much more competitive place for the immigration market. Most Asian immigration from places like the Philippines and Cambodia will be sucked in by Korea, Japan and China. That will be the biggest change to the international labor market, especially for white countries. Europe will still take in Muslims and Africans. America will still take in Latinos, but not as many, since Latin American countries will be competing for those same immigrants.

    Of the major Latino countries, the following will start shrinking:
    Brazil by 2045
    Mexico by 2055
    Colombia by 2050
    The rest will start shrinking by 2070. Remember, they will push for immigrant labor twenty years before they start shrinking.

    The last factor to take into account is the burgeoning "Russian" Mennonite population in countries like Belize, Peru and Bolivia. In places like Belize, they're already 4% of the population and have four times the TFR of the natives with growth rates above 3% per annum. In Peru and Bolivia, Mennonite births account for 2-3% of all births each year. By 2070, Belize will probably be 10% or more Russian Mennonite and Peru/Bolivia just under 10%.
    , @notanon

    but he thinks the mormons will be immune to that process or takes it for granted the mormons and amish will just keep increasing in numbers about at the present rate.
     
    separate from the political aspects Mormons/Amish are an interesting HBD test case for the theory that breeders produce breeders so (if left alone) the demographic transition would naturally reverse itself over time (at a lower max. population).
  75. “Once the dysgenic dark ages of the third millennium are replaced by the reassertion of Malthusian selection for intelligence”

    how would this ever happen. technological change beyond a certain level insures dumbification in perpetuity, rectifiable only by super science intervention, which they may become too dumb to attain. conversely the last couple non-dumbified populations may simply wipe out the dumb ones. in either scenario i don’t see any hard times = selection for intelligence again situation returning. although those two scenarios lead to different outcomes vis a vis brainpower.

    “Latino TFR is collapsing”

    fortunately for the next 10 democrat presidents, there are like 1 billion people in latin america. and they can just all be let in to the US.

    latino TFR is irrelevant. open borders is all that matters. and we’ll have it forever the day trump leaves office. he’s still trying to stop it, despite whether his efforts have much effect. no thanks to republicans either.

    “I’ve been thinking this too, yet the legal polygamy needle hasn’t moved too much”

    because the west’s jewish enemies aren’t interested in that. no jewish firepower behind polygamy for now. or anything else they’re not trying to use to destroy nations. if there is a sudden push for polygamy in the future, you know who will be behind it. but for now, not that that useful to them, so no push.

    seems like almost all social trends now are from you know who, and basically zero spontaneously occuring ones.

    if mormons ever do start to take over the map like in this animation, you know who will target them ruthlessly. you know who isn’t trying to take out mormons right now, but if they become a demographic threat, they will.

  76. @Dmitry

    Most influential composers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Accomplishment#Western_music
     
    Just because someone used a number for his/her opinion?

    First three in list I can understand. I think this is a crazy list though - Stravinsky higher than Chopin? How is Wagner so high? (He contributed influential harmonic innovations, but composed nothing outside opera - where after the overture you have quite repetitious, character/motif structured music).


    German dominance in classical music seems obvious.

     

    Italy is at least equally influential in development of music as Germany/Austria, just in different epochs. France is a little behind. In Russia - the influential is low, but there was perhaps the highest final peak achieved in some areas (e.g. late 19th century to early 20th century piano).

    Top 4 most popular composers in modern orchestra repertoires
     
    But orchestral popularity, is not determining. Chamber and solo music can be as important, if not sometimes more important.

    So, if you want to talk about a Piano Quintet (instead of orchestral music), for example - the most popular is by Franck .

    And for piano works in general - Rachmaninov and Scriabin are some of the world champions of their particular epoch.

    I am not denying Germans had “great” thinkers. I am just claiming that someone like Adam Smith (Scottish, admittedly) was more useful, or at least less harmful, than all the Germans combined.
     

    If philosophy is judged on harmful? Then Plato is a terrible philosopher because of things he wrote in Republic?

    the most influential Chinese translator of Western texts – Thomas Henry Huxley (Darwin’s bulldog), Adam Smith, Mill, Montesquieu. 3/4 British.
     
    Surely three of these are very interesting and important thinkers - Smith, Mill and Montesquieu.

    But they are not "Great Philosophers" (geniuses who transform philosophy).

    Hume was really a genius. What do you think about Locke and Hobbes? I've only skimmed their books. However, I don't believe they were at genius level of intelligence.

    In terms of English (excluding Scotland's) philosophy, there is perhaps no single great philosopher.

    How is Wagner so high? (He contributed influential harmonic innovations, but composed nothing outside opera

    Opera is by far the most complex thing to compose. Saying he “only” composed opera is like saying an airplane factory isn’t good at producing fighter planes, because it’s only capable of producing 5th gen stealth fighters. Or that a doctor is not very good at performing surgeries, he’s only good at brain surgery.

    after the overture you have quite repetitious, character/motif structured music).

    You can accuse Wagner of many things, but repetitive is certainly not something to come to mind. It’s not a Star Wars soundtrack, where Darth Vader always has the same music, the leitmotifs keep changing and getting interwoven into each other, as the operas progress, in a way which is pretty difficult to imagine how one person could write the score for without losing track of what he was doing. Heck, I sometimes forget mid-sentence what I was about to say!

    Chamber and solo music can be as important, if not sometimes more important.

    That’s true, but even there there’s some German over-representation, for example Bach, Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven, Schubert, Brahms are all popular and very good.

    But symphonies and especially operas are in general more complex and difficult to compose. (Not always true, Beethoven famously reserved his more difficult musical ideas for his quartets, and a Bartók quartet might be more subtle than most symphonies, but overall my point stands.)

    • Replies: @LondonBob
    Not forgetting Handel.
    , @Dmitry

    Opera is by far the most complex thing to
     
    Opera is the most musically impure genre of classical music, which is not to insult opera - impurity has created sometimes innovative music.

    Saying he “only” composed opera is like saying an airplane factory isn’t good at producing fighter
     
    Analogy does not match. Opera - in this case - has different, not purely musical, method of composition, and can far less super-structure or logic than other genres, especially including solo compositions (for example, there is far more logical complexity in Shostakovich piano sonatas than in his opera).

    Wagner's genius was for creating initial "sound world" for each opera, which required harmonic innovation and he invented certain sounds which had never been heard earlier.

    After this, music is responding (often in very very repetitive and predictable way) to the characters and story in libretto, rather than its own internal logic. Sometimes this can seem like special effects in a film (with over dramatic dynamics or sounds of birds, etc).

    This is why you cannot listen to Wagner opera (unlike e.g. Puccini) without following the story.

    If you don't believe me, try e.g. Parsifal on your headphones at work, and say what you remember of the music about the 1 hour while you were working - listened without following the story, it is very unstructured, laborious, and without logical structure:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1VabzhjY-E

    leitmotifs keep changing and getting interwoven into each other, as the operas progress,

     

    Sure, of course there is a lot of talent in this work. But it's not necessarily a desirable way to write music - constantly modifying the same themes, resulting in the same few ideas repeating over several hours.

    Moreover, it can be a mechanical composition method he uses.

    And when we admire it - it is not purely musical reasons; it's something more close to craft skills in literature and narrative.

    symphonies and especially operas are in general more complex and difficult to compose.

     

    We should judge just on music quality, innovation and its effect on listener, not on scale of work (for example, Hollywood films are difficult to create and on a large scale, but it does not imply quality always).

    each of these is significantly above both Mendelssohn and Schumann,
     
    Mendelssohn/Schumann are among greatest composers ever.

    Simply, they were not fashionable for 20th century critics, and your view seems to be reflection of 20th century music critics (similarly as with failure of critics to assess Rachmaninov/Scriabin, later on).

    Your view - also probably a reflection of people who do not like piano, because in piano these are two of the best composers.

    I’d think at least Wagner is close to Beethoven.
     
    I would say comparison is an opposite - one of the most broad and purely musical genius, compared to a narrow and not completely musical talent, whose original genius is often more in creating of atmosphere, strange tones (which includes his harmonic innovativity) and narrative.

    I guess you just have a distaste for long and complex
     
    I like all these composers.

    I'm sometimes listening to Bruckner symphonies for hours on headphones, when I'm at work. If you're tying to work on something not too complicated - otherwise the dynamic changes can be a bit distracting.

    (I set up enough sound quality to listen symphonies at work just from my laptop. I make FLACs from CDs, run FLAC on ASIO, through Asus Essence STU, to play on Shure 1540 headphones.)
    , @Dmitry

    a Bartók quartet might
     
    I've read/heard a lot about Bartok string quartets. But I didn't "get interested" in them yet.

    Another composer where string quartets are the best (or more accessible) works is Shostakovich (although they include many of the same melodies and ideas as in his symphonies and piano writing).

  77. @Dmitry

    You left out the grandmaster of them all – Heidegger. But thank you for making my point.

     

    Why? Heidegger was nonsense. But Germany produces some of the most significant philosophers in history, as I listed. And Germany produces Kant, the most important modern philosopher.

    Germany really was - once - "the land of thinkers".


    They pretty much are. Beethoven, Mozart (Austria), Bach, Handel, Haydn (Austria), Wagner
     
    Sure with Austrians -

    Beethoven, Mozart, Bach - first level.

    On the second level: Brahms, Schubert, Mendelssohn, Haydn, Schumann etc.

    On a third level people like Mahler, Wagner, Richard Strauss, Bruckner etc,.


    France has pretty much noone of that stature – ok, perhaps Debussy just squeezes in.

     

    Franck, Saint-Saens, Faure, Bizet, Berlioz.

    It's composers of some of most classic - or easy to like and popular with audiences at least - compositions of the 19th century.


    Russia – Stravinsky and Tchaikovsky.
     
    The greatest Russians: Tchaikovsky, Rachmaninov, Scriabin.

    On a third level people like Mahler, Wagner, Richard Strauss, Bruckner etc,.

    Each of these is significantly above both Mendelssohn and Schumann, and I’d think at least Wagner is close to Beethoven. As well as Mahler and Bruckner symphonies being at a similar or higher level than those of Beethoven.

    But I guess you just have a distaste for long and complex pieces, which is how Mahler, Wagner, Bruckner could end up as third rate in your world.

  78. @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan
    Like all reasonable Americans, I am grateful to Olde England for passing on to us our original political culture.

    But this culture was not without its seeds of death.

    Your country's government helped incite World War Two, and then helped get America into World War Two - admittedly with the help of our self-serving moron elites. American entry into World War Two was the most pivotal and most decisive moment in the ultimate destruction or severe curtailment of decent, peaceful, prosperous life in America. And it was a massively vital ingredient in the final destruction of Europe, the West, and, yes, England.

    England's products and accomplishments will go down in history as having been marred by an equal amount of hubris and self-destruction. I say this in sadness, because today marks a day on which one of my relatives was killed on Omaha Beach, in a war that ultimately saved nothing. It only destroyed.

    And this is all certainly in large part tied in with the rebellious nature of this supposedly helpful "Anglo religion," of which that ridiculous farce Joseph Smith was a flower.

    I hope St. Thomas Becket is having a good laugh at all of us.

    No WWII was an FDR contrived war to make the world safe for Communism and Jews, as Herbert Hoover so ably demonstrated. America bled Europe and the British Empire dry. Hitler ably played the useful idiot in all this.

  79. @reiner Tor

    How is Wagner so high? (He contributed influential harmonic innovations, but composed nothing outside opera
     
    Opera is by far the most complex thing to compose. Saying he “only” composed opera is like saying an airplane factory isn’t good at producing fighter planes, because it’s only capable of producing 5th gen stealth fighters. Or that a doctor is not very good at performing surgeries, he’s only good at brain surgery.

    after the overture you have quite repetitious, character/motif structured music).
     
    You can accuse Wagner of many things, but repetitive is certainly not something to come to mind. It’s not a Star Wars soundtrack, where Darth Vader always has the same music, the leitmotifs keep changing and getting interwoven into each other, as the operas progress, in a way which is pretty difficult to imagine how one person could write the score for without losing track of what he was doing. Heck, I sometimes forget mid-sentence what I was about to say!

    Chamber and solo music can be as important, if not sometimes more important.
     
    That’s true, but even there there’s some German over-representation, for example Bach, Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven, Schubert, Brahms are all popular and very good.

    But symphonies and especially operas are in general more complex and difficult to compose. (Not always true, Beethoven famously reserved his more difficult musical ideas for his quartets, and a Bartók quartet might be more subtle than most symphonies, but overall my point stands.)

    Not forgetting Handel.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    And how could any discussion about great German composers leave out George Philip Telemann??...

    Telemann is one of the most prolific composers in history[1] (at least in terms of surviving oeuvre)[2] and was considered by his contemporaries to be one of the leading German composers of the time—he was compared favorably both to his friend Johann Sebastian Bach, who made Telemann the godfather and namesake of his son Carl Philipp Emanuel, and to George Frideric Handel, whom Telemann also knew personally.
     
    You gotta give the man his due! :-)
    , @Dmitry
    I don't say Handel, because I thought he can be classified as an English composer? But his early training was in Germany, so perhaps it was wrong to not count him.
  80. @Anon

    Certainly the vigorous anti-Anglo signalling by some of the Alt Right (when actually serious) is rather bizarre.
     
    Alt-Right anti-Anglo sentiment is popular-reactionary and based on little evidence except for what the alphabet agencies (and maybe deeper authority that those) want the populace to see. Ie: the populace sees Anglo progressivism, the Anglo position in WWII, and an association with Jews and that is all that they need. Which, I grant, is a lot.

    However, it is foolish to think that what the populace sees is accurate. While I doubt that it is completely inaccurate, in a sense, I would sooner place my last dollar on the opposite of public perception being true in any sensitive geopolitical situation. I believe that the Art of War has been available in English for a long time now, as well as other similar texts on war strategy.

    Ergo, it would scare the shit out of me if I were a smarter Black man and saw White people, who were recently unapologetically imperialist and world-dominant in every sphere, giving the impression that they are now essentially in suicide-mode for my sake.

    Not even all European Christian immigrants really assimilated in America, even today many haven’t despite residing there for generations. There was a lot of truth to the instincts of the first Americans to only allow immigration from North West Europe, ideally Protestants. America is a living breathing example of why freedom of movement in Europe is a terrible mistake and Brexit a necessity.

    • Replies: @UrbaneFrancoOntarian
    Yeah just look at Canada

    Obvious: French vs. English
    More subtle: rednecks are Irish and Scottish, Toronto elites are WASP and Jewish, Italians and Portugese do all the construction.

    The truth is that "whites" never truly assimilated - the same skin tone allowed us to believe that we did. But we will see the same thing with 3rd worlders, though they won't be dominating construction.
  81. @Mr. XYZ
    A one person, one robot marriage sounds reasonable, no?

    I used to have a cat that I really liked (loved?). 🙂

  82. @LondonBob
    Not forgetting Handel.

    And how could any discussion about great German composers leave out George Philip Telemann??…

    Telemann is one of the most prolific composers in history[1] (at least in terms of surviving oeuvre)[2] and was considered by his contemporaries to be one of the leading German composers of the time—he was compared favorably both to his friend Johann Sebastian Bach, who made Telemann the godfather and namesake of his son Carl Philipp Emanuel, and to George Frideric Handel, whom Telemann also knew personally.

    You gotta give the man his due! 🙂

  83. Anon[146] • Disclaimer says:
    @anonymous

    And just like with Islam in Europe it doesn’t speak well for the social value of Mormon theology that they attract converts who are on average more subpar than the general population.
     
    Lol! The implication being that Islam does not satisfy the haloed degenerative standards of western social norms? ... the unabashed Promiscuity, the heavy Intoxication until you puke your guts out, the Usurious financial system, the Greed, the Psychopathy, the satanic Whitey Supremacy, etc.?

    Thank the Almighty One for that!!

    Subpar? Well, it is all a point of view, isn't it? In truth, your kind are subpar, whereas the western converts to Islam are blessed indeed. ;)

    “Satanic” White supremacy? In our own nations? Good one. Stated like a true Semitic imperialist and supremacist.

    Whereas Islam is literally a mirror of Judaism that, like Judaism, is driving toward a world conflict in which most peoples are genocided. To include most Christians and Muslims.

    Keep in mind that none of this belief is rooted in anything real. This is all a mass psychotic drive toward world destruction, perpetuated by a mind virus that has survived from antiquity. Its goal is to end in mass genocide.

    Without Islam and Judaism, we could keep driving toward the stars.

    With Islam and Judaism, the world will eventually be reduced to rubble and we will again live like cave people and repeat history in a continuous loop.

    White people simply wish to keep inventing things like indoor plumbing, electricity, airplanes,and spaceships: which we can not do when giving up what we have (political control, lebensraum, other resources) after having been harassed continuously by non-Whites in our own nations.

    Of course, you are free to retreat to your own nations to perpetuate Satanic…whoops… I mean “righteous” Islamic, Black, Jewish etc supremacy, clip each others peckers and clitorises, not use deodorant, make chicken and goat sacrifices, torture and kill one another over religious disputes, and whatever else your godly religion dictates.

  84. “He had too much LDS in the 60’s.”

    • Agree: Mr. Hack
  85. Anonymous[339] • Disclaimer says:
    @Mr. Hack
    With the introduction of gay marriages, the floodgates are now wide open. Use your imagination. Perhaps one woman and three husbands. Perhaps four wifes and three husbands. In a modern world shedding itself of its Christian heritage, with no moral boundaries, who's really to say what constitutes the institution of marriage. Look down the road 20 or more years...This could be our next US president:

    https://www.nydailynews.com/resizer/WVQI8lbbSvlwoJuhFGdao-2CKOw=/800x533/top/arc-anglerfish-arc2-prod-tronc.s3.amazonaws.com/public/5B6PFC3SAOYINQNPGTHUZP5ZPY.jpg

    Who would have thought that this could be possible 20 years ago?

    Imo one of the key criteria the neoliberal establishment uses in deciding which causes to adopt is, does it annoy the archetypal male conservative? Polygamy, or lowering the age of consent from 18 to 16, let’s say…an “Archie Bunker” type is probably not going to be bothered very much by that, ergo it’s not interesting. We see the same thing with prostitution: there’s really no big push to liberalize prostitution in the US, and if anything we’ve become less tolerant of it over the past few decades. Prostitution annoys women, therefore it’s bad.

    The next big “social-justice” movements (aside from ongoing trans stuff) would probably be efforts to punish or humiliate men: increased crackdown on “rape” on college campuses, or a more expansive definition of workplace harassment (and increased EEOC regulation thereof), perhaps some efforts against porn. The great fantasy of the left in America is to find a way to get more white men (preferably middle class or above) in prison. Invariably black men will suffer disproportionately under any of these schemes, of course, but that’s collateral damage.

    • Replies: @anon
    Polyamory is one of the rainbow left causes, and so is legalization of "sex work".
    Search for "sex work is work".
    As religious right is dying, it is now alt-right that rages the strongest against LGBTQ, porn and masturbation that drains precious bodily fluids of Aryan men. As consequence, the hard left gets harder on LGBTQ and sex positivity.
  86. anon[157] • Disclaimer says:
    @dvorak

    they found all the details about Joseph Smith, golden tablets and divine revelation they were not taught in Mormon church
     
    Come on. The whole subtext to Joseph Smith as a prophet is: God chooses a fool to illuminate truth, for His own reasons. How Godlike for God to choose a con man/fool as His prophet.

    Smith is an obvious con man, but God imbues Smith's followers with faith nonetheless. See how that makes the faith even stronger and more impressive?

    Religious belief is filled with these paradoxes and dualities. Trying to debunk a paradox completely misses the point.

    This is argument of Bruce Charlton (weirdo English guy with impeccable HBDIQ scientific credentials, who also believes in elves, dwarves, fairies and angel Moroni)

    TL;DR of his proof: Mormons are good people, good citizens, good neighbours, good high IQ people who breed like wabbits, the Mormon church is great positive force in the world. Book of Mormon is great work of art that inspired millions and set their souls aflame.
    Clearly, such great thing cannot be just con job of some uneducated fraudster. It must be true revelation from loving Heavenly Father and Mother.

    Here the full version of approximately 25,000 words
    http://theoreticalmormon.blogspot.com/

  87. anon[157] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous
    Imo one of the key criteria the neoliberal establishment uses in deciding which causes to adopt is, does it annoy the archetypal male conservative? Polygamy, or lowering the age of consent from 18 to 16, let's say...an "Archie Bunker" type is probably not going to be bothered very much by that, ergo it's not interesting. We see the same thing with prostitution: there's really no big push to liberalize prostitution in the US, and if anything we've become less tolerant of it over the past few decades. Prostitution annoys women, therefore it's bad.

    The next big "social-justice" movements (aside from ongoing trans stuff) would probably be efforts to punish or humiliate men: increased crackdown on "rape" on college campuses, or a more expansive definition of workplace harassment (and increased EEOC regulation thereof), perhaps some efforts against porn. The great fantasy of the left in America is to find a way to get more white men (preferably middle class or above) in prison. Invariably black men will suffer disproportionately under any of these schemes, of course, but that's collateral damage.

    Polyamory is one of the rainbow left causes, and so is legalization of “sex work”.
    Search for “sex work is work”.
    As religious right is dying, it is now alt-right that rages the strongest against LGBTQ, porn and masturbation that drains precious bodily fluids of Aryan men. As consequence, the hard left gets harder on LGBTQ and sex positivity.

    • Replies: @Anonymoose
    apparently that's athing in portland. Saw it in a Paul Joseph "Well imagine my shock" Watson video about Portland.
  88. The Mormons are clannish and weird as hell, it helps to have an insider’s perspective. My family goes back to Joseph Smith times in the LDS church and our experience is typical. The thing to remember about LDS fertility numbers is that most of the white Mormon babies grow up and leave the church. The LDS church still counts me and my brothers as members since we were baptized as kids, but none of us had set foot in a church since we left the family home at 18.

    We had a family reunion recently, all of my grandmother’s kids and grandkids. She had 34 grandchildren and of those, maybe 4 are good Mormons and another 4 are nominal Mormons. Only the 4 good Mormons continue with having huge families.

    In terms of active, white, church-going believers the LDS church in America probably peaked decades ago, it just keeps goosing the numbers by including people who left, and importing converted third-worlders.

    The general health of the church as an institution is probably about as good as the Catholic church’s position, i.e., dying slowly. That’s a better position to be in than the Unitarians or Presbyterians, but that’s not saying much.

    • Agree: Anatoly Karlin
    • Replies: @Philip Owen
    Here in Wales, most Mormons seem to stay Mormon and continue to attend church. On my brand new housing estate there is a brand new church and a road leading to it named Celestial Way. Mormonism in Wales is as old as in the US, give two years. It was a way to emigrate. Join the LDS and you had sponsors for emigration. I understand that 30% of US Mormon's have recent Welsh ancestors. The Tabernacle choir certainly had Welsh origins. The most Welsh place in the US is a valley in Idaho settled by Mormons. The school here has a substantial minority of Mormon children as young Mormon families are moving to the estate. Whenever I walk to town, I seem to be greeted by two young men in white shirts I've never seen before.
  89. @Dmitry

    Old Believers,

     

    They receive lack of help, if not sometimes obstruction, from the authorities, and sometimes bullying from the church.

    It seems today there is obstruction to reconstitute even into cities which were their historical center like Ekaterinburg, because authorities don't permit returning their historical church buildings.

    They are far lower as a share of Russia’s population than Mormons, and don’t have the ultra-high fertility rates of Amish

     

    Mormons have vast political power, from their seat in one of the best states in America - and their church has tens of billions of dollars of assets.

    They also obsessed about things like science fiction, space travel and aliens, so their aesthetic might be quite adjusted for a second half of the 21st century.

    Mormons will takeover Ukraine first though.

    There are lots of Mormons in Saratov. There was a 19th C cult around Saratov that was classed as Mormon.

  90. @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan
    A religion that bans coffee, let alone booze, deserves to die a swift and embarrassing death. My word, even the Muslims AND the Amish let you drink coffee.

    There was the week at Hewlett Packard in Boise when the newly appointed Mormon building manager switched the, free, coffee machines to decaf without telling anyone. (Some Mormons will drink decaf). Boy, was my headache bad. I was far from the only one. He escaped executio . Just.

  91. @reiner Tor

    How is Wagner so high? (He contributed influential harmonic innovations, but composed nothing outside opera
     
    Opera is by far the most complex thing to compose. Saying he “only” composed opera is like saying an airplane factory isn’t good at producing fighter planes, because it’s only capable of producing 5th gen stealth fighters. Or that a doctor is not very good at performing surgeries, he’s only good at brain surgery.

    after the overture you have quite repetitious, character/motif structured music).
     
    You can accuse Wagner of many things, but repetitive is certainly not something to come to mind. It’s not a Star Wars soundtrack, where Darth Vader always has the same music, the leitmotifs keep changing and getting interwoven into each other, as the operas progress, in a way which is pretty difficult to imagine how one person could write the score for without losing track of what he was doing. Heck, I sometimes forget mid-sentence what I was about to say!

    Chamber and solo music can be as important, if not sometimes more important.
     
    That’s true, but even there there’s some German over-representation, for example Bach, Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven, Schubert, Brahms are all popular and very good.

    But symphonies and especially operas are in general more complex and difficult to compose. (Not always true, Beethoven famously reserved his more difficult musical ideas for his quartets, and a Bartók quartet might be more subtle than most symphonies, but overall my point stands.)

    Opera is by far the most complex thing to

    Opera is the most musically impure genre of classical music, which is not to insult opera – impurity has created sometimes innovative music.

    Saying he “only” composed opera is like saying an airplane factory isn’t good at producing fighter

    Analogy does not match. Opera – in this case – has different, not purely musical, method of composition, and can far less super-structure or logic than other genres, especially including solo compositions (for example, there is far more logical complexity in Shostakovich piano sonatas than in his opera).

    Wagner’s genius was for creating initial “sound world” for each opera, which required harmonic innovation and he invented certain sounds which had never been heard earlier.

    After this, music is responding (often in very very repetitive and predictable way) to the characters and story in libretto, rather than its own internal logic. Sometimes this can seem like special effects in a film (with over dramatic dynamics or sounds of birds, etc).

    This is why you cannot listen to Wagner opera (unlike e.g. Puccini) without following the story.

    If you don’t believe me, try e.g. Parsifal on your headphones at work, and say what you remember of the music about the 1 hour while you were working – listened without following the story, it is very unstructured, laborious, and without logical structure:

    leitmotifs keep changing and getting interwoven into each other, as the operas progress,

    Sure, of course there is a lot of talent in this work. But it’s not necessarily a desirable way to write music – constantly modifying the same themes, resulting in the same few ideas repeating over several hours.

    Moreover, it can be a mechanical composition method he uses.

    And when we admire it – it is not purely musical reasons; it’s something more close to craft skills in literature and narrative.

    symphonies and especially operas are in general more complex and difficult to compose.

    We should judge just on music quality, innovation and its effect on listener, not on scale of work (for example, Hollywood films are difficult to create and on a large scale, but it does not imply quality always).

    each of these is significantly above both Mendelssohn and Schumann,

    Mendelssohn/Schumann are among greatest composers ever.

    Simply, they were not fashionable for 20th century critics, and your view seems to be reflection of 20th century music critics (similarly as with failure of critics to assess Rachmaninov/Scriabin, later on).

    Your view – also probably a reflection of people who do not like piano, because in piano these are two of the best composers.

    I’d think at least Wagner is close to Beethoven.

    I would say comparison is an opposite – one of the most broad and purely musical genius, compared to a narrow and not completely musical talent, whose original genius is often more in creating of atmosphere, strange tones (which includes his harmonic innovativity) and narrative.

    I guess you just have a distaste for long and complex

    I like all these composers.

    I’m sometimes listening to Bruckner symphonies for hours on headphones, when I’m at work. If you’re tying to work on something not too complicated – otherwise the dynamic changes can be a bit distracting.

    (I set up enough sound quality to listen symphonies at work just from my laptop. I make FLACs from CDs, run FLAC on ASIO, through Asus Essence STU, to play on Shure 1540 headphones.)

    • Replies: @reiner Tor

    Opera is the most musically impure genre of classical music
     
    I understand what you mean, and I can sympathize with it, but nevertheless it's still very complex.

    you cannot listen to Wagner opera (unlike e.g. Puccini) without following the story.
     
    For the first time, I did that, too. However, I don't think there are many fanatics who are reading the libretto whenever listening to a Wagner opera. I often listen to it as background music, like anything else. With Tristan, I never followed the libretto line by line, but eventually it became one of my favorite operas, simply due to the musical structure.

    try e.g. Parsifal on your headphones at work, and say what you remember of the music about the 1 hour while you were working – listened without following the story, it is very unstructured, laborious, and without logical structure
     
    I often cannot remember anything from background music listening. You have very strange ideas, because - if I remember correctly - you play some instrument (piano?), and you listen to music in a different way other people do. I don't care for the "logical structure" of music, it's simply that I like Wagner's music. Though for example Tristan has a very logical structure, basically you can listen to it as a very long three-movement symphony. Same thing with Parsifal, Siegfried, or Götterdämmerung.

    Contrary to what you assert here (and what Wagner himself, erroneously, believed about his own operas), what I read from musicologists is precisely this - Wagner's operas are basically very long symphonies without any need to follow the story.


    Wagner’s genius was for creating initial “sound world” for each opera, which required harmonic innovation and he invented certain sounds which had never been heard earlier.
     
    I'm just a layperson, but musicologists have way more to say about his influence. He is often credited with influencing (one way or another) each composer following him (though some in a negative way, "this is what I don't want to be like").

    On the other hand, if you want to list the many innovations of Mendelssohn... well, he just didn't innovate that much. Which is not to say that you cannot listen to his compositions a lot.


    it can be a mechanical composition method he uses
     
    You are getting into silliness. If it was mechanical, we'd have several copycat composers (it's not like several other opera composers weren't under his influence), but we don't.

    And when we admire it – it is not purely musical reasons; it’s something more close to craft skills in literature and narrative.
     
    As has been pointed out, the "great opera with a silly/shitty libretto" is well known (La Traviata is an often-used example), while the "great opera with shitty music" is a non-existent category. You cannot admire an opera without good music. No one would listen to it at home, nor visit the opera houses. (I myself basically never go to the opera, since I don't have time, and my motivation is not that high, since Regietheater has destroyed live performances.)

    We should judge just on music quality, innovation and its effect on listener, not on scale of work
     
    Wagner had lots of innovation. He manages to keep tension for four hours in Tristan, and when, after nearly three hours, the tension is almost resolved at the end of the second act, he manages to increase it yet at the beginning of the third act. This is used by a technique invented by him (though he credited the idea to Schopenhauer) of starting a second theme while the first one is still unresolved, and then a third one before the second is resolved, etc. This way he can keep the tension high throughout a four-hour-long opera.

    In Tristan, increasing the tension still at the beginning of the third act is pure genius, though. (Even the libretto seems largely to have climaxed at the end of the second act, but then it reaches new heights. It's not the most important thing about it, though, as discussed above.) As is often mentioned, he was already playing with atonality in the 19th century, which was innovative. (Though I think fully atonal composition is a dead end, abandoning full tonality resulted in some interesting works.)


    Hollywood films are difficult to create and on a large scale, but it does not imply quality always
     
    Yes, but creating a good 1.5-hour-movie is way more difficult and complex than creating a good 30-second video.

    A good 1.5-hour symphony is better than a good 3-minute piano etude.


    Your view – also probably a reflection of people who do not like piano, because in piano these are two of the best composers.
     
    I occasionally listen to both Schumann and Mendelssohn (especially the latter), and not only their piano works, but I never get very excited about them. (There are a few exceptions, like Mendelssohn's Prälidium und Fuge, op. 35; his Violin Concerto in E minor; Schumann's Manfred Overture.)

    For me, Beethoven, Schubert, Debussy, Ravel, or Liszt are easily better composers for the piano than either Mendelssohn or Schumann.

  92. @anonn
    The Mormons are clannish and weird as hell, it helps to have an insider's perspective. My family goes back to Joseph Smith times in the LDS church and our experience is typical. The thing to remember about LDS fertility numbers is that most of the white Mormon babies grow up and leave the church. The LDS church still counts me and my brothers as members since we were baptized as kids, but none of us had set foot in a church since we left the family home at 18.

    We had a family reunion recently, all of my grandmother's kids and grandkids. She had 34 grandchildren and of those, maybe 4 are good Mormons and another 4 are nominal Mormons. Only the 4 good Mormons continue with having huge families.

    In terms of active, white, church-going believers the LDS church in America probably peaked decades ago, it just keeps goosing the numbers by including people who left, and importing converted third-worlders.

    The general health of the church as an institution is probably about as good as the Catholic church's position, i.e., dying slowly. That's a better position to be in than the Unitarians or Presbyterians, but that's not saying much.

    Here in Wales, most Mormons seem to stay Mormon and continue to attend church. On my brand new housing estate there is a brand new church and a road leading to it named Celestial Way. Mormonism in Wales is as old as in the US, give two years. It was a way to emigrate. Join the LDS and you had sponsors for emigration. I understand that 30% of US Mormon’s have recent Welsh ancestors. The Tabernacle choir certainly had Welsh origins. The most Welsh place in the US is a valley in Idaho settled by Mormons. The school here has a substantial minority of Mormon children as young Mormon families are moving to the estate. Whenever I walk to town, I seem to be greeted by two young men in white shirts I’ve never seen before.

    • Replies: @anonn
    Mormon country looks like the epicenter of both the English and Welsh diasporas in America, but that's just because the Mormons actually remember where their ancestors came from ( sincethey came later and all at once).

    There are old mining towns in Utah and Idaho still dominated by the Welsh because when they got to Salt Lake Brigham Young had a revelation that the newly-arrived Welsh miners are good at mining, so he assigned them to go colonize places with coal seams.

    It's probably impossible to say whether Utah and Idaho are really the most Welsh-American or English-American places in the US since those ancestries in the rest of the country are just called "American."
  93. @LondonBob
    Not forgetting Handel.

    I don’t say Handel, because I thought he can be classified as an English composer? But his early training was in Germany, so perhaps it was wrong to not count him.

  94. @reiner Tor

    How is Wagner so high? (He contributed influential harmonic innovations, but composed nothing outside opera
     
    Opera is by far the most complex thing to compose. Saying he “only” composed opera is like saying an airplane factory isn’t good at producing fighter planes, because it’s only capable of producing 5th gen stealth fighters. Or that a doctor is not very good at performing surgeries, he’s only good at brain surgery.

    after the overture you have quite repetitious, character/motif structured music).
     
    You can accuse Wagner of many things, but repetitive is certainly not something to come to mind. It’s not a Star Wars soundtrack, where Darth Vader always has the same music, the leitmotifs keep changing and getting interwoven into each other, as the operas progress, in a way which is pretty difficult to imagine how one person could write the score for without losing track of what he was doing. Heck, I sometimes forget mid-sentence what I was about to say!

    Chamber and solo music can be as important, if not sometimes more important.
     
    That’s true, but even there there’s some German over-representation, for example Bach, Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven, Schubert, Brahms are all popular and very good.

    But symphonies and especially operas are in general more complex and difficult to compose. (Not always true, Beethoven famously reserved his more difficult musical ideas for his quartets, and a Bartók quartet might be more subtle than most symphonies, but overall my point stands.)

    a Bartók quartet might

    I’ve read/heard a lot about Bartok string quartets. But I didn’t “get interested” in them yet.

    Another composer where string quartets are the best (or more accessible) works is Shostakovich (although they include many of the same melodies and ideas as in his symphonies and piano writing).

  95. @Philip Owen
    Here in Wales, most Mormons seem to stay Mormon and continue to attend church. On my brand new housing estate there is a brand new church and a road leading to it named Celestial Way. Mormonism in Wales is as old as in the US, give two years. It was a way to emigrate. Join the LDS and you had sponsors for emigration. I understand that 30% of US Mormon's have recent Welsh ancestors. The Tabernacle choir certainly had Welsh origins. The most Welsh place in the US is a valley in Idaho settled by Mormons. The school here has a substantial minority of Mormon children as young Mormon families are moving to the estate. Whenever I walk to town, I seem to be greeted by two young men in white shirts I've never seen before.

    Mormon country looks like the epicenter of both the English and Welsh diasporas in America, but that’s just because the Mormons actually remember where their ancestors came from ( sincethey came later and all at once).

    There are old mining towns in Utah and Idaho still dominated by the Welsh because when they got to Salt Lake Brigham Young had a revelation that the newly-arrived Welsh miners are good at mining, so he assigned them to go colonize places with coal seams.

    It’s probably impossible to say whether Utah and Idaho are really the most Welsh-American or English-American places in the US since those ancestries in the rest of the country are just called “American.”

  96. @LondonBob
    Not even all European Christian immigrants really assimilated in America, even today many haven't despite residing there for generations. There was a lot of truth to the instincts of the first Americans to only allow immigration from North West Europe, ideally Protestants. America is a living breathing example of why freedom of movement in Europe is a terrible mistake and Brexit a necessity.

    Yeah just look at Canada

    Obvious: French vs. English
    More subtle: rednecks are Irish and Scottish, Toronto elites are WASP and Jewish, Italians and Portugese do all the construction.

    The truth is that “whites” never truly assimilated – the same skin tone allowed us to believe that we did. But we will see the same thing with 3rd worlders, though they won’t be dominating construction.

  97. utu says:

    Russian Orthodox splinter sects (strong Protestant elements and Judaizers):

    Khlysty – The central idea of the Khlystys’ religion was to practice asceticism. Khlysty practiced the attainment of divine grace for sin in ecstatic rituals (called радéния, or radeniya) that were rumored to sometimes turn into sexual orgies.[1] Flagellation was also rumored, possibly due to the similarity of their name to the word for “whip”.

    Skoptsy – Castration. They believed that human genitals were a mark of Original Sin, more specifically, that after the expulsion from the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve had the halves of the forbidden fruit grafted onto their bodies forming testicles and breasts. Thus, the removal of these sexual organs restored the Skoptsy to the pristine state before the Original Sin.

    Molokan – All sects refrain from eating pork, shellfish, or other “unclean” foods, as defined in the Bible. Molokans refer to the sabbath on Sunday. Some refuse to serve on juries or file lawsuits against fellow church members. Church services, led by a Lector, are conducted predominantly in the Russian language. Approximately 25,000 Molokans reside in the United States, of whom about 5,000 “ethnically” identify as Molokans. The majority live in or near Los Angeles, particularly in East Los Angeles, Boyle Heights, and Commerce. (utu experience: met one Molokan girl in LA who married a Jewish guy. Her family got to the US via Mexico where large groups of them first immigrated.)

    Dukhobors – Some of the emigrants went first to Cyprus, which could not sustain a large migration. Soon Canada offered more land, transportation, and aid to resettle in the Saskatchewan area. Around 6,000 emigrated there in the first half of 1899, settling on land granted to them by the government in what is now Manitoba and Saskatchewan. The Cyprus colony and others joined them, with a total of 7500 emigrants by the end of the year,[15]—about one-third of the total Doukhobor population in Russia. Several smaller groups joined the main body of emigrants in later years, directly from Transcaucasia or other places of exile.[13] Among these late-comers were some 110 leaders of the community who had to complete their sentences before being allowed to emigrate.[15] By 1930 a total of about 8,780 Doukhobors had migrated from Russia to Canada.

    The Quakers and Tolstoyan movement covered most of the costs of passage for the emigrants; writer Leo Tolstoy arranged for the royalties from his novel Resurrection, his story Father Sergei, and some others, to go to the emigration fund. He also raised money from wealthy friends. In the end, his efforts provided about 30,000 rubles, half of the emigration fund. The anarchist Peter Kropotkin and James Mavor, a professor of political economy at the University of Toronto, also helped the emigrants.

    They are distinguished as pacifists who lived in their own villages, rejected personal materialism, worked together, and developed a tradition of oral history and memorizing and singing hymns and verses. Before 1886, they had a series of single leaders.

    Subbotniks – a common name for Russian sects of Judaizers of Christian origin, who split from other Sabbatarians in the 19th century.[1][2] There are three main groups of people described as Subbotniks:

    Judaizing Talmudists: Subbotnik converts to Rabbinic Judaism, also described as “Gery” (Russian: Геры), “Talmudisty” (Russian: Субботники-Талмудисты), or “Shaposhniki”.[1]

    Karaimites[3][4] or Karaite Subbotniks[1] (Russian: Субботники-Караимиты): also described as “Russian Karaites” (Russian: Русские Караимы),[5] considering themselves as adherents of Karaite Judaism.[6] However, it has been reported that they do not practice circumcision.[7][8]

    Subbotnik Molokans (Russian: Молокане-субботники) sect: in contradiction to the previous Subbotnik sects they recognize the Gospel, but also practice some of the rules and precepts of the Old Testament.

    Subbotnik families settled in the Holy Land, at the time part of the Ottoman Empire, in the 1880s as part of the Zionist First Aliyah in order to escape oppression in the Russian Empire and later mostly intermarried with other Jews. Their descendants included Israeli Jews such as Alexander Zaïd, Ariel Sharon and Major-General Alik Ron. (utu comment: Did Ariel Sharon had Ashkenazi genes?)

    Subbotniks in Nazi-occupied areas of Ukraine were killed by SS Einsatzgruppen troops and local Ukrainian collaborators due to their Jewish self-identity. They were relatively recent migrants to Ukraine from areas of Voronezh and considered outsiders by the peasants, who noted their practice of some Jewish customs. During the Holocaust, Nazis killed thousands of Subbotniks. By contrast, they did not attack Crimean Karats, accepting the state’s records that they were ethnic Tatars (or Khazars). (Correction by utu: they did not kill Karaites because Karaites were not Talmudists. Some Karaites were hoping Jews na some where collaborating with Nazis.)

    Then there were Protestants sects in Russia among Germans like Mennonites. Many of them ended up in Canada in Edmonton area, iirc. Then there were Pentecostsls. Many among Armenians. (utu: I have some of them in my family.) Many of them immigrated to the US and Canada.

    Literacy among simple folks that lets them read Bible w/o a supervision leads to chaos. Catholic Church knew what they were doing when it resisted translating Bible into native languages. For this reason Catholicism managed to large extend to preserve the spiritual core of Christianity w/o it being lost in the minutiae of arbitrary and ultimately irrelevant interpretations of the text. One could say that Protestantism was a seminal exemplification of the future postmodernist critical theory where there is only a text and it is left to any interpretation. Derrida and his Talmudic influences and so on..

    the Center for Global Christianity at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary, which is evangelical Protestant, estimates that there are currently 47,000 denominations.

    One may wonder whether the Gender Revolution is not unlike Luther revolution that is also going to spawn 1000’s of genders and group identities. More is always better for those who are in the position to exercise the Divide et Impera rule.

    In the end there will be only one commonality for all people, only one social meme, one story that will have a power of being real and objective that will unify them all as they will all agree on its ontological existence. This commonality already exists: it is money. There will be no more truth. Truth will be relegated to being a mere rhetorical device that may work on the naive. Only money will be left as something all people agree on and then there will be power that money gives and power that is needed to acquire money and keep it.

    Corollary: biological, evolutionary theory, HBD or IQists arguments have no chance of persuading those on whose side is power and money. But if IQism could put itself on the side of power like for example by the claim that Jews are smarts and so on then it can get entrenched. This explains the effort of IQist to pander to Jews which only proves that this is all about power not truth.

    • Replies: @Anonymoose
    You are retard. I mean looking through your comments one can't help but get the felling you must have schizoprenia or psychosis. I wonder why our host Mr.AK rarely replies to you just to try his best not to attract attention to some pathetic schizoid like yourself.
    , @Philip Owen
    Interesting. And as you say, this is not all, even in Russia. I have a book written by a British traveller to Russia during the period 1859 to 1905 which describes many sects, not all native Russian to be fair.
  98. @utu
    Russian Orthodox splinter sects (strong Protestant elements and Judaizers):

    Khlysty - The central idea of the Khlystys' religion was to practice asceticism. Khlysty practiced the attainment of divine grace for sin in ecstatic rituals (called радéния, or radeniya) that were rumored to sometimes turn into sexual orgies.[1] Flagellation was also rumored, possibly due to the similarity of their name to the word for "whip".

    Skoptsy - Castration. They believed that human genitals were a mark of Original Sin, more specifically, that after the expulsion from the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve had the halves of the forbidden fruit grafted onto their bodies forming testicles and breasts. Thus, the removal of these sexual organs restored the Skoptsy to the pristine state before the Original Sin.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/92/Skoptsy_man_and_woman.jpg

    Molokan - All sects refrain from eating pork, shellfish, or other "unclean" foods, as defined in the Bible. Molokans refer to the sabbath on Sunday. Some refuse to serve on juries or file lawsuits against fellow church members. Church services, led by a Lector, are conducted predominantly in the Russian language. Approximately 25,000 Molokans reside in the United States, of whom about 5,000 "ethnically" identify as Molokans. The majority live in or near Los Angeles, particularly in East Los Angeles, Boyle Heights, and Commerce. (utu experience: met one Molokan girl in LA who married a Jewish guy. Her family got to the US via Mexico where large groups of them first immigrated.)

    Dukhobors - Some of the emigrants went first to Cyprus, which could not sustain a large migration. Soon Canada offered more land, transportation, and aid to resettle in the Saskatchewan area. Around 6,000 emigrated there in the first half of 1899, settling on land granted to them by the government in what is now Manitoba and Saskatchewan. The Cyprus colony and others joined them, with a total of 7500 emigrants by the end of the year,[15]—about one-third of the total Doukhobor population in Russia. Several smaller groups joined the main body of emigrants in later years, directly from Transcaucasia or other places of exile.[13] Among these late-comers were some 110 leaders of the community who had to complete their sentences before being allowed to emigrate.[15] By 1930 a total of about 8,780 Doukhobors had migrated from Russia to Canada.

    The Quakers and Tolstoyan movement covered most of the costs of passage for the emigrants; writer Leo Tolstoy arranged for the royalties from his novel Resurrection, his story Father Sergei, and some others, to go to the emigration fund. He also raised money from wealthy friends. In the end, his efforts provided about 30,000 rubles, half of the emigration fund. The anarchist Peter Kropotkin and James Mavor, a professor of political economy at the University of Toronto, also helped the emigrants.

    They are distinguished as pacifists who lived in their own villages, rejected personal materialism, worked together, and developed a tradition of oral history and memorizing and singing hymns and verses. Before 1886, they had a series of single leaders.

    Subbotniks - a common name for Russian sects of Judaizers of Christian origin, who split from other Sabbatarians in the 19th century.[1][2] There are three main groups of people described as Subbotniks:

    Judaizing Talmudists: Subbotnik converts to Rabbinic Judaism, also described as "Gery" (Russian: Геры), "Talmudisty" (Russian: Субботники-Талмудисты), or "Shaposhniki".[1]

    Karaimites[3][4] or Karaite Subbotniks[1] (Russian: Субботники-Караимиты): also described as "Russian Karaites" (Russian: Русские Караимы),[5] considering themselves as adherents of Karaite Judaism.[6] However, it has been reported that they do not practice circumcision.[7][8]

    Subbotnik Molokans (Russian: Молокане-субботники) sect: in contradiction to the previous Subbotnik sects they recognize the Gospel, but also practice some of the rules and precepts of the Old Testament.

    Subbotnik families settled in the Holy Land, at the time part of the Ottoman Empire, in the 1880s as part of the Zionist First Aliyah in order to escape oppression in the Russian Empire and later mostly intermarried with other Jews. Their descendants included Israeli Jews such as Alexander Zaïd, Ariel Sharon and Major-General Alik Ron. (utu comment: Did Ariel Sharon had Ashkenazi genes?)

    Subbotniks in Nazi-occupied areas of Ukraine were killed by SS Einsatzgruppen troops and local Ukrainian collaborators due to their Jewish self-identity. They were relatively recent migrants to Ukraine from areas of Voronezh and considered outsiders by the peasants, who noted their practice of some Jewish customs. During the Holocaust, Nazis killed thousands of Subbotniks. By contrast, they did not attack Crimean Karats, accepting the state's records that they were ethnic Tatars (or Khazars). (Correction by utu: they did not kill Karaites because Karaites were not Talmudists. Some Karaites were hoping Jews na some where collaborating with Nazis.)

    Then there were Protestants sects in Russia among Germans like Mennonites. Many of them ended up in Canada in Edmonton area, iirc. Then there were Pentecostsls. Many among Armenians. (utu: I have some of them in my family.) Many of them immigrated to the US and Canada.

    Literacy among simple folks that lets them read Bible w/o a supervision leads to chaos. Catholic Church knew what they were doing when it resisted translating Bible into native languages. For this reason Catholicism managed to large extend to preserve the spiritual core of Christianity w/o it being lost in the minutiae of arbitrary and ultimately irrelevant interpretations of the text. One could say that Protestantism was a seminal exemplification of the future postmodernist critical theory where there is only a text and it is left to any interpretation. Derrida and his Talmudic influences and so on..

    the Center for Global Christianity at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary, which is evangelical Protestant, estimates that there are currently 47,000 denominations.
     
    One may wonder whether the Gender Revolution is not unlike Luther revolution that is also going to spawn 1000's of genders and group identities. More is always better for those who are in the position to exercise the Divide et Impera rule.

    In the end there will be only one commonality for all people, only one social meme, one story that will have a power of being real and objective that will unify them all as they will all agree on its ontological existence. This commonality already exists: it is money. There will be no more truth. Truth will be relegated to being a mere rhetorical device that may work on the naive. Only money will be left as something all people agree on and then there will be power that money gives and power that is needed to acquire money and keep it.

    Corollary: biological, evolutionary theory, HBD or IQists arguments have no chance of persuading those on whose side is power and money. But if IQism could put itself on the side of power like for example by the claim that Jews are smarts and so on then it can get entrenched. This explains the effort of IQist to pander to Jews which only proves that this is all about power not truth.

    You are retard. I mean looking through your comments one can’t help but get the felling you must have schizoprenia or psychosis. I wonder why our host Mr.AK rarely replies to you just to try his best not to attract attention to some pathetic schizoid like yourself.

  99. @anon
    Polyamory is one of the rainbow left causes, and so is legalization of "sex work".
    Search for "sex work is work".
    As religious right is dying, it is now alt-right that rages the strongest against LGBTQ, porn and masturbation that drains precious bodily fluids of Aryan men. As consequence, the hard left gets harder on LGBTQ and sex positivity.

    apparently that’s athing in portland. Saw it in a Paul Joseph “Well imagine my shock” Watson video about Portland.

    • Replies: @anon
    https://i.imgur.com/dzoUJbJ.jpg

    Polyamory is rather old concept, pushed originally by science fiction.

    https://caprica.fandom.com/wiki/Sexuality

    http://openingup.net/2012/09/24/the-poly-connection-to-sci-fi-and-fantasy/


    Many poly folks came to polyamory via geek culture, and the author mentions the group's affinity for Star Trek, comic books, Joss Whedon, Magic: The Gathering, and sci-fi author Robert A. Heinlein.
     
    And it is indeed something in the air.

    https://www.wired.com/2017/04/silicon-valley-polyamory/

    But is it not the next thing after gay marriage and trans rights.

    Gay marriage is, from legal point of view, ordinary two person marriage, nothing exceptional. Polyamorous marriage is diferent thing of beast.
    Imagine the possibilities of 6, 12, 20, whatever marriage partners - think about family benefits, immigration, citizenship, health care, legal spouse privilege etc. For even more fun, imagine poly divorce.

    "Poly marriage" would be legal nightmare. I do not see anyone opening this can of worms.

  100. @Anatoly Karlin

    worse than useless German philosophy (on balance)
     

    ... Schopenhauer, Nietzsche, Hegel, Marx, Kant.
     
    You left out the grandmaster of them all - Heidegger. But thank you for making my point.

    But for music, France, Italy and Russia – are not second-rate to Germany
     
    They pretty much are. Beethoven, Mozart (Austria), Bach, Handel, Haydn (Austria), Wagner - nobody else comes even close to having such a concentration of eminents. France has pretty much noone of that stature - ok, perhaps Debussy just squeezes in. Russia - Stravinsky and Tchaikovsky.

    Shocked you did not mention more russians: Rimsy Korsakov, Shostakovich, Rachmaninoff, Kachaturian(Armenian but Soviet regardless), Prokofiev. These guys are a legendary bunch who don’t make Russia second rate to Germany. Let’s not even get into ballet for France and Russia.

    • Agree: melanf
  101. @Anatoly Karlin
    More of a Soviet-era generation preoccupation: http://www.unz.com/akarlin/russian-anglophilia/

    What’s interesting is that it is if anything more acute amongst the middle-aged “Soviet” generations, who are familiar with English literature. They expect to walk into a Jane Austen novel or something upon disembarking at Heathrow.
     
    The most ardent Anglophile I know is a 60 year old Phystech graduate/Sberbank sysadmin.

    Why in the next comment you talk about how you find Anti-Anglo signalling bizarre when you wrote that article complaining of rich Russian’s Anglophillia. Seems contradictory.

    • Replies: @Mitleser
    Do you have to be Anti-Anglo or Anglophil?
  102. anon[113] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymoose
    apparently that's athing in portland. Saw it in a Paul Joseph "Well imagine my shock" Watson video about Portland.


    Polyamory is rather old concept, pushed originally by science fiction.

    https://caprica.fandom.com/wiki/Sexuality

    http://openingup.net/2012/09/24/the-poly-connection-to-sci-fi-and-fantasy/

    Many poly folks came to polyamory via geek culture, and the author mentions the group’s affinity for Star Trek, comic books, Joss Whedon, Magic: The Gathering, and sci-fi author Robert A. Heinlein.

    And it is indeed something in the air.

    https://www.wired.com/2017/04/silicon-valley-polyamory/

    But is it not the next thing after gay marriage and trans rights.

    Gay marriage is, from legal point of view, ordinary two person marriage, nothing exceptional. Polyamorous marriage is diferent thing of beast.
    Imagine the possibilities of 6, 12, 20, whatever marriage partners – think about family benefits, immigration, citizenship, health care, legal spouse privilege etc. For even more fun, imagine poly divorce.

    “Poly marriage” would be legal nightmare. I do not see anyone opening this can of worms.

    • Replies: @Anonymoose
    Who knows. 20 years ago who could have imagined that paying exensive surgeries and hormone therapies to mutilate yourself into a transman/woman would be seen as the appex of the fight for human rights.
    , @Kent Nationalist
    Polyamory in reality is just polyandry. I think the sci-fi nonsense is just how they sell it to men. How much Star Trek do you think men who genuinely have the opportunity to sleep with multiple women at once watch?
  103. Today is the day the Emperor Elagabulus defeated the usurper Macrinus at the battle of Antioch in 218AD. Gloria excelsis Deo Gloria tibi, Domine

  104. @anon
    https://i.imgur.com/dzoUJbJ.jpg

    Polyamory is rather old concept, pushed originally by science fiction.

    https://caprica.fandom.com/wiki/Sexuality

    http://openingup.net/2012/09/24/the-poly-connection-to-sci-fi-and-fantasy/


    Many poly folks came to polyamory via geek culture, and the author mentions the group's affinity for Star Trek, comic books, Joss Whedon, Magic: The Gathering, and sci-fi author Robert A. Heinlein.
     
    And it is indeed something in the air.

    https://www.wired.com/2017/04/silicon-valley-polyamory/

    But is it not the next thing after gay marriage and trans rights.

    Gay marriage is, from legal point of view, ordinary two person marriage, nothing exceptional. Polyamorous marriage is diferent thing of beast.
    Imagine the possibilities of 6, 12, 20, whatever marriage partners - think about family benefits, immigration, citizenship, health care, legal spouse privilege etc. For even more fun, imagine poly divorce.

    "Poly marriage" would be legal nightmare. I do not see anyone opening this can of worms.

    Who knows. 20 years ago who could have imagined that paying exensive surgeries and hormone therapies to mutilate yourself into a transman/woman would be seen as the appex of the fight for human rights.

  105. @prime noticer
    it seems strange that anatoly does these culture war projections in the future for other entire countries (poland will be the UK politically in 20 years, see here, all the trend lines are the same, just behind 2 decades. poles will embrace globohomo, brown invaders, self hatred). analysis which i think has some merit.

    but he thinks the mormons will be immune to that process or takes it for granted the mormons and amish will just keep increasing in numbers about at the present rate. when we already have data that they aren't and won't.

    like the other posters, i think the next 10 democrat presidents straight will swamp with US with 300 million brown third wordlers, so breeder religionists won't make a dent in what the actual future of 'america' is.

    the interesting battle of the latter 21st century will be who will take control of the US. i don't see jews maintaining control. the mexicans, africans, and muslims all battling for the smoldering husk of the formerly WASP nation with guys like the 2060 version of mitt romney merely a sideshow. some dork who does protest votes in the senate as utah has the last couple republican senators.

    You have to factor that the only regions of the world that will still be growing in the second half of this century will be Africa and sections of the Middle East. It usually takes about 40 years after passing the point of sub-replacement fertility for a population to start declining in absolute terms. Usually, within 20 years after sub-replacement, countries start pushing for immigration due to labor shortages.

    Of the ten most populous countries today, only Nigeria and Pakistan will still be growing after 2070. Even countries like India will begin shrinking around 2060-2070 in absolute terms.

    The future will be a much more competitive place for the immigration market. Most Asian immigration from places like the Philippines and Cambodia will be sucked in by Korea, Japan and China. That will be the biggest change to the international labor market, especially for white countries. Europe will still take in Muslims and Africans. America will still take in Latinos, but not as many, since Latin American countries will be competing for those same immigrants.

    Of the major Latino countries, the following will start shrinking:
    Brazil by 2045
    Mexico by 2055
    Colombia by 2050
    The rest will start shrinking by 2070. Remember, they will push for immigrant labor twenty years before they start shrinking.

    The last factor to take into account is the burgeoning “Russian” Mennonite population in countries like Belize, Peru and Bolivia. In places like Belize, they’re already 4% of the population and have four times the TFR of the natives with growth rates above 3% per annum. In Peru and Bolivia, Mennonite births account for 2-3% of all births each year. By 2070, Belize will probably be 10% or more Russian Mennonite and Peru/Bolivia just under 10%.

  106. @Anatoly Karlin

    worse than useless German philosophy (on balance)
     

    ... Schopenhauer, Nietzsche, Hegel, Marx, Kant.
     
    You left out the grandmaster of them all - Heidegger. But thank you for making my point.

    But for music, France, Italy and Russia – are not second-rate to Germany
     
    They pretty much are. Beethoven, Mozart (Austria), Bach, Handel, Haydn (Austria), Wagner - nobody else comes even close to having such a concentration of eminents. France has pretty much noone of that stature - ok, perhaps Debussy just squeezes in. Russia - Stravinsky and Tchaikovsky.

    They pretty much are. Beethoven, Mozart (Austria), Bach, Handel, Haydn (Austria), Wagner – nobody else comes even close to having such a concentration of eminents. France has pretty much noone of that stature – ok, perhaps Debussy just squeezes in. Russia – Stravinsky and Tchaikovsky.

    can’t agree with that. France had such composers as Bizet, Gounod, Saint-Saëns , Offenbach ( Les contes d’Hoffmann). In Russia (except Tchaikovsky) such figures as Rimsky-Korsakov, Musorgsky, Rachmaninoff, Glinka, Prokofiev. But Debussy and Stravinsky are really second-rate composers. Italy is also not inferior (in the field of music) to Germany-Austria

    • Replies: @Dmitry

    Italy is also not inferior (in the field of music) to Germany-Austria
     
    Yes.

    Debussy... second-rate
     
    What?

    Debussy is one of the most innovative and influential artists in history, revolutionized harmony, and even created some of the best melodies.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUTuCNtCoKk

    , @Dmitry

    In Russia
     
    The most important and innovative contributions are three - Rachmaninov, Scriabin, Tchaikovsky.
    , @Bardon Kaldian
    AK is right. As for Germans, no one comes close to them re music or philosophy. Not even close.
  107. @anon
    https://i.imgur.com/dzoUJbJ.jpg

    Polyamory is rather old concept, pushed originally by science fiction.

    https://caprica.fandom.com/wiki/Sexuality

    http://openingup.net/2012/09/24/the-poly-connection-to-sci-fi-and-fantasy/


    Many poly folks came to polyamory via geek culture, and the author mentions the group's affinity for Star Trek, comic books, Joss Whedon, Magic: The Gathering, and sci-fi author Robert A. Heinlein.
     
    And it is indeed something in the air.

    https://www.wired.com/2017/04/silicon-valley-polyamory/

    But is it not the next thing after gay marriage and trans rights.

    Gay marriage is, from legal point of view, ordinary two person marriage, nothing exceptional. Polyamorous marriage is diferent thing of beast.
    Imagine the possibilities of 6, 12, 20, whatever marriage partners - think about family benefits, immigration, citizenship, health care, legal spouse privilege etc. For even more fun, imagine poly divorce.

    "Poly marriage" would be legal nightmare. I do not see anyone opening this can of worms.

    Polyamory in reality is just polyandry. I think the sci-fi nonsense is just how they sell it to men. How much Star Trek do you think men who genuinely have the opportunity to sleep with multiple women at once watch?

    • Replies: @melanf

    Polyamory in reality is just polyandry
     
    Not always. here Russian nationalist-pagan Ivan Sukhov

    https://kluch.media/upload/photo/2018/1109-Mnogozenec/Zeni17-1.jpg

    https://kluch.media/upload/medialibrary/99e/3.jpg

    who decided (in the interests of "revival of the Russian people") to have 50 children. He currently has 13 children by three wives
  108. @Kent Nationalist
    Polyamory in reality is just polyandry. I think the sci-fi nonsense is just how they sell it to men. How much Star Trek do you think men who genuinely have the opportunity to sleep with multiple women at once watch?

    Polyamory in reality is just polyandry

    Not always. here Russian nationalist-pagan Ivan Sukhov

    who decided (in the interests of “revival of the Russian people”) to have 50 children. He currently has 13 children by three wives

    • Replies: @Kent Nationalist
    And I thought White Shariah was just a meme.

    But that is polygamy. I don't think any of those women are allowed to sleep with other men. I meant 'polyamory' as promoted by the bugmen the previous commenter mentioned.
    , @Thea
    That’s just polygamy. He wants to be the only father of three women’s kids. They aren’t sleeping around and having other men’s children.
  109. @anon
    The problem with LDS church is that the whole thing is brazen and transparent fake, done in modern times in full light of history.
    This matters - when high IQ and curious Mormon people got on the Internet for the first time, they found all the details about Joseph Smith, golden tablets and divine revelation they were not taught in Mormon church. Lots of them lost their faith and left the church.
    The phenomenon have its name, "internet apostasy".

    http://archives.exmormon.org/Mormon-Church_admits-that-the-Internet-is-causing-members-to-leave

    https://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/21/us/some-mormons-search-the-web-and-find-doubt.html

    Unless LDS church somewhat manages to censor the Internet to silence the critics, this will not end.

    The problem with LDS church is that the whole thing is brazen and transparent fake

    So is all religion in general.

    • Replies: @Philip Owen
    That is the point. In religion and politics, you demonstrate your faith by a belief in the unbelievable. If you are sophisticated about it the escape route is to describe some things as unknowable mysteries. I recognize several. There is also denial of that which is patently true.
  110. @melanf

    Polyamory in reality is just polyandry
     
    Not always. here Russian nationalist-pagan Ivan Sukhov

    https://kluch.media/upload/photo/2018/1109-Mnogozenec/Zeni17-1.jpg

    https://kluch.media/upload/medialibrary/99e/3.jpg

    who decided (in the interests of "revival of the Russian people") to have 50 children. He currently has 13 children by three wives

    And I thought White Shariah was just a meme.

    But that is polygamy. I don’t think any of those women are allowed to sleep with other men. I meant ‘polyamory’ as promoted by the bugmen the previous commenter mentioned.

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
    Polyamory is a typical decadent experiment.

    To be completely sincere, the norm for any historical civilized society had been monogamy. Sure, some kings, emperors, conquerors, sultans, pharaohs...were polygamous/polygynous, but most historical populations of Europe & Asia have always been monogamous.
  111. @utu
    Russian Orthodox splinter sects (strong Protestant elements and Judaizers):

    Khlysty - The central idea of the Khlystys' religion was to practice asceticism. Khlysty practiced the attainment of divine grace for sin in ecstatic rituals (called радéния, or radeniya) that were rumored to sometimes turn into sexual orgies.[1] Flagellation was also rumored, possibly due to the similarity of their name to the word for "whip".

    Skoptsy - Castration. They believed that human genitals were a mark of Original Sin, more specifically, that after the expulsion from the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve had the halves of the forbidden fruit grafted onto their bodies forming testicles and breasts. Thus, the removal of these sexual organs restored the Skoptsy to the pristine state before the Original Sin.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/92/Skoptsy_man_and_woman.jpg

    Molokan - All sects refrain from eating pork, shellfish, or other "unclean" foods, as defined in the Bible. Molokans refer to the sabbath on Sunday. Some refuse to serve on juries or file lawsuits against fellow church members. Church services, led by a Lector, are conducted predominantly in the Russian language. Approximately 25,000 Molokans reside in the United States, of whom about 5,000 "ethnically" identify as Molokans. The majority live in or near Los Angeles, particularly in East Los Angeles, Boyle Heights, and Commerce. (utu experience: met one Molokan girl in LA who married a Jewish guy. Her family got to the US via Mexico where large groups of them first immigrated.)

    Dukhobors - Some of the emigrants went first to Cyprus, which could not sustain a large migration. Soon Canada offered more land, transportation, and aid to resettle in the Saskatchewan area. Around 6,000 emigrated there in the first half of 1899, settling on land granted to them by the government in what is now Manitoba and Saskatchewan. The Cyprus colony and others joined them, with a total of 7500 emigrants by the end of the year,[15]—about one-third of the total Doukhobor population in Russia. Several smaller groups joined the main body of emigrants in later years, directly from Transcaucasia or other places of exile.[13] Among these late-comers were some 110 leaders of the community who had to complete their sentences before being allowed to emigrate.[15] By 1930 a total of about 8,780 Doukhobors had migrated from Russia to Canada.

    The Quakers and Tolstoyan movement covered most of the costs of passage for the emigrants; writer Leo Tolstoy arranged for the royalties from his novel Resurrection, his story Father Sergei, and some others, to go to the emigration fund. He also raised money from wealthy friends. In the end, his efforts provided about 30,000 rubles, half of the emigration fund. The anarchist Peter Kropotkin and James Mavor, a professor of political economy at the University of Toronto, also helped the emigrants.

    They are distinguished as pacifists who lived in their own villages, rejected personal materialism, worked together, and developed a tradition of oral history and memorizing and singing hymns and verses. Before 1886, they had a series of single leaders.

    Subbotniks - a common name for Russian sects of Judaizers of Christian origin, who split from other Sabbatarians in the 19th century.[1][2] There are three main groups of people described as Subbotniks:

    Judaizing Talmudists: Subbotnik converts to Rabbinic Judaism, also described as "Gery" (Russian: Геры), "Talmudisty" (Russian: Субботники-Талмудисты), or "Shaposhniki".[1]

    Karaimites[3][4] or Karaite Subbotniks[1] (Russian: Субботники-Караимиты): also described as "Russian Karaites" (Russian: Русские Караимы),[5] considering themselves as adherents of Karaite Judaism.[6] However, it has been reported that they do not practice circumcision.[7][8]

    Subbotnik Molokans (Russian: Молокане-субботники) sect: in contradiction to the previous Subbotnik sects they recognize the Gospel, but also practice some of the rules and precepts of the Old Testament.

    Subbotnik families settled in the Holy Land, at the time part of the Ottoman Empire, in the 1880s as part of the Zionist First Aliyah in order to escape oppression in the Russian Empire and later mostly intermarried with other Jews. Their descendants included Israeli Jews such as Alexander Zaïd, Ariel Sharon and Major-General Alik Ron. (utu comment: Did Ariel Sharon had Ashkenazi genes?)

    Subbotniks in Nazi-occupied areas of Ukraine were killed by SS Einsatzgruppen troops and local Ukrainian collaborators due to their Jewish self-identity. They were relatively recent migrants to Ukraine from areas of Voronezh and considered outsiders by the peasants, who noted their practice of some Jewish customs. During the Holocaust, Nazis killed thousands of Subbotniks. By contrast, they did not attack Crimean Karats, accepting the state's records that they were ethnic Tatars (or Khazars). (Correction by utu: they did not kill Karaites because Karaites were not Talmudists. Some Karaites were hoping Jews na some where collaborating with Nazis.)

    Then there were Protestants sects in Russia among Germans like Mennonites. Many of them ended up in Canada in Edmonton area, iirc. Then there were Pentecostsls. Many among Armenians. (utu: I have some of them in my family.) Many of them immigrated to the US and Canada.

    Literacy among simple folks that lets them read Bible w/o a supervision leads to chaos. Catholic Church knew what they were doing when it resisted translating Bible into native languages. For this reason Catholicism managed to large extend to preserve the spiritual core of Christianity w/o it being lost in the minutiae of arbitrary and ultimately irrelevant interpretations of the text. One could say that Protestantism was a seminal exemplification of the future postmodernist critical theory where there is only a text and it is left to any interpretation. Derrida and his Talmudic influences and so on..

    the Center for Global Christianity at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary, which is evangelical Protestant, estimates that there are currently 47,000 denominations.
     
    One may wonder whether the Gender Revolution is not unlike Luther revolution that is also going to spawn 1000's of genders and group identities. More is always better for those who are in the position to exercise the Divide et Impera rule.

    In the end there will be only one commonality for all people, only one social meme, one story that will have a power of being real and objective that will unify them all as they will all agree on its ontological existence. This commonality already exists: it is money. There will be no more truth. Truth will be relegated to being a mere rhetorical device that may work on the naive. Only money will be left as something all people agree on and then there will be power that money gives and power that is needed to acquire money and keep it.

    Corollary: biological, evolutionary theory, HBD or IQists arguments have no chance of persuading those on whose side is power and money. But if IQism could put itself on the side of power like for example by the claim that Jews are smarts and so on then it can get entrenched. This explains the effort of IQist to pander to Jews which only proves that this is all about power not truth.

    Interesting. And as you say, this is not all, even in Russia. I have a book written by a British traveller to Russia during the period 1859 to 1905 which describes many sects, not all native Russian to be fair.

  112. @ImmortalRationalist

    The problem with LDS church is that the whole thing is brazen and transparent fake
     
    So is all religion in general.

    That is the point. In religion and politics, you demonstrate your faith by a belief in the unbelievable. If you are sophisticated about it the escape route is to describe some things as unknowable mysteries. I recognize several. There is also denial of that which is patently true.

  113. @melanf

    They pretty much are. Beethoven, Mozart (Austria), Bach, Handel, Haydn (Austria), Wagner – nobody else comes even close to having such a concentration of eminents. France has pretty much noone of that stature – ok, perhaps Debussy just squeezes in. Russia – Stravinsky and Tchaikovsky.
     
    can't agree with that. France had such composers as Bizet, Gounod, Saint-Saëns , Offenbach ( Les contes d'Hoffmann). In Russia (except Tchaikovsky) such figures as Rimsky-Korsakov, Musorgsky, Rachmaninoff, Glinka, Prokofiev. But Debussy and Stravinsky are really second-rate composers. Italy is also not inferior (in the field of music) to Germany-Austria

    Italy is also not inferior (in the field of music) to Germany-Austria

    Yes.

    Debussy… second-rate

    What?

    Debussy is one of the most innovative and influential artists in history, revolutionized harmony, and even created some of the best melodies.

    • Agree: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    I enjoy most all of Debussy's oeuvre of music. Although there are many masterful renditions of his Claire De Lune, here's one of my favorites by the incomparable Isao Tomita. Have you heard this one before? Great accompanying video montage too:

    https://youtu.be/dFsTOm7sWvA
  114. @melanf

    They pretty much are. Beethoven, Mozart (Austria), Bach, Handel, Haydn (Austria), Wagner – nobody else comes even close to having such a concentration of eminents. France has pretty much noone of that stature – ok, perhaps Debussy just squeezes in. Russia – Stravinsky and Tchaikovsky.
     
    can't agree with that. France had such composers as Bizet, Gounod, Saint-Saëns , Offenbach ( Les contes d'Hoffmann). In Russia (except Tchaikovsky) such figures as Rimsky-Korsakov, Musorgsky, Rachmaninoff, Glinka, Prokofiev. But Debussy and Stravinsky are really second-rate composers. Italy is also not inferior (in the field of music) to Germany-Austria

    In Russia

    The most important and innovative contributions are three – Rachmaninov, Scriabin, Tchaikovsky.

  115. Harold Bloom predicted in “American Religion” and “Omens of the Millennium” that Mormons would grow fabulously from late 1980s to early 2000s.

    He was wrong. Mormons, never mind pros & cons, have long since reached their saturation point; they are disintegrating, just like Judaism.

  116. @melanf

    They pretty much are. Beethoven, Mozart (Austria), Bach, Handel, Haydn (Austria), Wagner – nobody else comes even close to having such a concentration of eminents. France has pretty much noone of that stature – ok, perhaps Debussy just squeezes in. Russia – Stravinsky and Tchaikovsky.
     
    can't agree with that. France had such composers as Bizet, Gounod, Saint-Saëns , Offenbach ( Les contes d'Hoffmann). In Russia (except Tchaikovsky) such figures as Rimsky-Korsakov, Musorgsky, Rachmaninoff, Glinka, Prokofiev. But Debussy and Stravinsky are really second-rate composers. Italy is also not inferior (in the field of music) to Germany-Austria

    AK is right. As for Germans, no one comes close to them re music or philosophy. Not even close.

  117. @Kent Nationalist
    And I thought White Shariah was just a meme.

    But that is polygamy. I don't think any of those women are allowed to sleep with other men. I meant 'polyamory' as promoted by the bugmen the previous commenter mentioned.

    Polyamory is a typical decadent experiment.

    To be completely sincere, the norm for any historical civilized society had been monogamy. Sure, some kings, emperors, conquerors, sultans, pharaohs…were polygamous/polygynous, but most historical populations of Europe & Asia have always been monogamous.

  118. That breeders will inherit the earth is for sure. The question is what kind of breeders.
    There are esentially two types. Ones where men work hard to feed their children and families (which results in monogamy or near monogamy) and ones where men jump from a woman to woman (and women voluntarily have children with them) leaving women and offspring without any support (the model is already in place in the west). Another effect is gradually removing dad type men from society with the exception of closed religious communities.
    The former creates healthy society, the latter juch decay. The latter has proven it’s vitality in sub-Saharan Africa.

    • Replies: @anonymous
    Nope. Once Mr. Karlin restores the Russian Empire and gets the artificial wombs up and running, he will outbreed them all.

    http://www.unz.com/akarlin/paper-review-artificial-wombs/

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8mvN2Zv_OI
  119. @Dmitry

    Italy is also not inferior (in the field of music) to Germany-Austria
     
    Yes.

    Debussy... second-rate
     
    What?

    Debussy is one of the most innovative and influential artists in history, revolutionized harmony, and even created some of the best melodies.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUTuCNtCoKk

    I enjoy most all of Debussy’s oeuvre of music. Although there are many masterful renditions of his Claire De Lune, here’s one of my favorites by the incomparable Isao Tomita. Have you heard this one before? Great accompanying video montage too:

  120. The most important and innovative contributions are three – Rachmaninov, Scriabin, Tchaikovsky.

    Not too shabby when you consider that none of the ones that you’ve listed was even responsible for
    creating the incredible and innovative Russian school of classical music:

    the leader of the group, Alexander Borodin, César Ciu, Modest Mussorgsky (the so-called ‘unruly genius’ of the company), and Nikolai Rimsky-Korsakov, perhaps the most famous of the members in recent times. The group of musicians and composers, also known as ‘The Mighty Coterie’ or ‘The Mighty Handful’ met in St. Petersburg and sought to free themselves of foreign influences in their music and remain true to their traditions and Russian culture.

    My personal two favorites would be Borodin and Rimsky-Korsakov, always having a special interest in oriental sounds. 🙂

  121. anonymous[328] • Disclaimer says:
    @hadonos
    That breeders will inherit the earth is for sure. The question is what kind of breeders.
    There are esentially two types. Ones where men work hard to feed their children and families (which results in monogamy or near monogamy) and ones where men jump from a woman to woman (and women voluntarily have children with them) leaving women and offspring without any support (the model is already in place in the west). Another effect is gradually removing dad type men from society with the exception of closed religious communities.
    The former creates healthy society, the latter juch decay. The latter has proven it's vitality in sub-Saharan Africa.

    Nope. Once Mr. Karlin restores the Russian Empire and gets the artificial wombs up and running, he will outbreed them all.

    http://www.unz.com/akarlin/paper-review-artificial-wombs/

    • LOL: Anatoly Karlin
  122. E says:
    @Anatoly Karlin
    Most influential composers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Accomplishment#Western_music
    8/10 German.

    Top 4 most popular composers in modern orchestra repertoires: Mozart, Beethoven, Bach, Tchaikovsky (3/4 German)

    German dominance in classical music seems obvious.

    I am not denying Germans had "great" thinkers. I am just claiming that someone like Adam Smith (Scottish, admittedly) was more useful, or at least less harmful, than all the Germans combined. Them having Marx alone drives them into net negative value added territory.

    The four Western philosophers that Yan Fu focused on - the most influential Chinese translator of Western texts - Thomas Henry Huxley (Darwin's bulldog), Adam Smith, Mill, Montesquieu. 3/4 British.

    Most-referenced doesn’t always mean “of best quality”. In the written music tradition, composers who write for an internationally widespread type of ensemble/instrument (such as the symphony orchestra, or the solo piano) will always have a huge built-in distribution advantage. Likewise in the past, a Catholic mass would have a big distribution advantage when most of Europe was Catholic.

    Russia has some music that can’t really travel internationally. For example, some of the beautiful songs written for the all-male orthodox church choir, by composers largely unknown to the outside world:
    Sheremetev, “Now the Powers of Heaven”:

    Golovanov “We Praise Thee”:

    Or some of the music written for the Russian folk orchestras, which I find lots of fun to listen to and wonderfully inventive (and the textural possibilities of this ensemble are no less rich than the symphony orchestra):
    A. Kurchenko, “Kamarinskaya”:
    https://ipleer.fm/song/69005423/Russkie_uzory_-_Kamarinskaya_koncertnaya_pesa_na_russkuyu_temu_dlya_balalajki_s_orkestrom_A._Kurchenko/
    A. Shirokov, “Severnye perebory”:
    https://ipleer.fm/song/124945170/Russkie_uzory_-_Severnye_perebory_na_temy_garmoshechnyh_naigryshej_S._Smetanina_A._SHirokov/

    Some of the best British composers are currently to be found in a similar sort of region-specific “exclusive neighborhood” – in the British brass band, or winds.
    For example, here’s the wonderful “Call of the Cossacks” by Peter Graham:

    Or something based on traditional British tunes, “Gaelforce” (a simpler piece, but quite memorable):

    In addition, of course, that list says nothing about the unwritten music tradition, but it is precisely unwritten folk music that has always served as the foundation for elite written music (as described in “Roots of the Classical: The Popular Origins of Western Music” https://www.oxfordscholarship.com/view/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780198166474.001.0001/acprof-9780198166474 ) as well as master performer-improvisers in cultures whose most complex music is generally not written down (as in Arab and Persian lands, for example).

    • Agree: Anonymoose
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    Russian folk music can be very lively, and one of the best performance groups of this type of music was the Red Army Ensemble. If you haven't already, watch the classic 1965 video including some of their best performances (including 2-3 Ukrainian songs too):

    https://youtu.be/SWTAwD42468
  123. @E
    Most-referenced doesn't always mean "of best quality". In the written music tradition, composers who write for an internationally widespread type of ensemble/instrument (such as the symphony orchestra, or the solo piano) will always have a huge built-in distribution advantage. Likewise in the past, a Catholic mass would have a big distribution advantage when most of Europe was Catholic.

    Russia has some music that can't really travel internationally. For example, some of the beautiful songs written for the all-male orthodox church choir, by composers largely unknown to the outside world:
    Sheremetev, "Now the Powers of Heaven":
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Po2jkIW0tWs
    Golovanov "We Praise Thee":
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5EIdjTr3GK4

    Or some of the music written for the Russian folk orchestras, which I find lots of fun to listen to and wonderfully inventive (and the textural possibilities of this ensemble are no less rich than the symphony orchestra):
    A. Kurchenko, "Kamarinskaya":
    https://ipleer.fm/song/69005423/Russkie_uzory_-_Kamarinskaya_koncertnaya_pesa_na_russkuyu_temu_dlya_balalajki_s_orkestrom_A._Kurchenko/
    A. Shirokov, "Severnye perebory":
    https://ipleer.fm/song/124945170/Russkie_uzory_-_Severnye_perebory_na_temy_garmoshechnyh_naigryshej_S._Smetanina_A._SHirokov/

    Some of the best British composers are currently to be found in a similar sort of region-specific "exclusive neighborhood" - in the British brass band, or winds.
    For example, here's the wonderful "Call of the Cossacks" by Peter Graham:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3H5gOzU5eE
    Or something based on traditional British tunes, "Gaelforce" (a simpler piece, but quite memorable):
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5k_A0iIs6Q

    In addition, of course, that list says nothing about the unwritten music tradition, but it is precisely unwritten folk music that has always served as the foundation for elite written music (as described in "Roots of the Classical: The Popular Origins of Western Music" https://www.oxfordscholarship.com/view/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780198166474.001.0001/acprof-9780198166474 ) as well as master performer-improvisers in cultures whose most complex music is generally not written down (as in Arab and Persian lands, for example).

    Russian folk music can be very lively, and one of the best performance groups of this type of music was the Red Army Ensemble. If you haven’t already, watch the classic 1965 video including some of their best performances (including 2-3 Ukrainian songs too):

    • Agree: E
  124. @RadicalCenter
    The western US, like the rest of the US, will be a substantial majority non-white, and as far as I know there are no non-white Amish and few non-white Mormons -- and certainly vanishingly few of either group among the massive immigration pool being admitted every year.

    In this scenario where the Amish become a majority, or even a plurality (the single biggest group, but not a majority), where have all the tens of millions of non-Amish Mexicans, Latin Americans, and Asians gone?

    I would be glad for this scenario to come to pass, but it doesn't seem plausible at all unless non-Amish simply stop reproducing and stop immigrating here.

    as far as I know there are … few non-white Mormons

    Possibly in the US. But then only about a third of Mormons live in the US. Mormons have well over a century of missionary activity to Indians (feather), Polynesians, etc. They are, for instance, dominant in Samoa.

    In some Latin American countries they are a higher percentage of the population than in the US.

    I’m not sure how many non-whites in US are Mormon.

    https://www.mormonwiki.com/Demographics

  125. @Mr. Hack
    With the introduction of gay marriages, the floodgates are now wide open. Use your imagination. Perhaps one woman and three husbands. Perhaps four wifes and three husbands. In a modern world shedding itself of its Christian heritage, with no moral boundaries, who's really to say what constitutes the institution of marriage. Look down the road 20 or more years...This could be our next US president:

    https://www.nydailynews.com/resizer/WVQI8lbbSvlwoJuhFGdao-2CKOw=/800x533/top/arc-anglerfish-arc2-prod-tronc.s3.amazonaws.com/public/5B6PFC3SAOYINQNPGTHUZP5ZPY.jpg

    Who would have thought that this could be possible 20 years ago?

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack

    Stranger in a Strange Land. In that book, he creates another untraditional take on marriage through Mike's communal partnership. Again, the goal isn't to suggest this is better or worse—it's simply something to consider.
     
    Yeah, this is the kind of stuff that I had in mind. I actually read this book in my youth - Heinlein had a lot of unconventional ideas including incest too. Is it really far out science fiction, or is it possible?

    https://youtu.be/qVMjGT4eiDk
  126. @Logan
    Line marriage.

    https://www.shmoop.com/the-moon-is-a-harsh-mistress/line-marriage-symbol.html

    Stranger in a Strange Land. In that book, he creates another untraditional take on marriage through Mike’s communal partnership. Again, the goal isn’t to suggest this is better or worse—it’s simply something to consider.

    Yeah, this is the kind of stuff that I had in mind. I actually read this book in my youth – Heinlein had a lot of unconventional ideas including incest too. Is it really far out science fiction, or is it possible?

    • Replies: @Logan
    AFAIK, no society in human history has come up with anything resembling a line marriage. So I kind of doubt it's possible for human psychology to tolerate. Certainly not how he portrays it, as the ultimate in long-term family stability. I suspect any such attempt would be a hotbed of sexual jealousy and intrigue.
  127. @Dmitry

    Opera is by far the most complex thing to
     
    Opera is the most musically impure genre of classical music, which is not to insult opera - impurity has created sometimes innovative music.

    Saying he “only” composed opera is like saying an airplane factory isn’t good at producing fighter
     
    Analogy does not match. Opera - in this case - has different, not purely musical, method of composition, and can far less super-structure or logic than other genres, especially including solo compositions (for example, there is far more logical complexity in Shostakovich piano sonatas than in his opera).

    Wagner's genius was for creating initial "sound world" for each opera, which required harmonic innovation and he invented certain sounds which had never been heard earlier.

    After this, music is responding (often in very very repetitive and predictable way) to the characters and story in libretto, rather than its own internal logic. Sometimes this can seem like special effects in a film (with over dramatic dynamics or sounds of birds, etc).

    This is why you cannot listen to Wagner opera (unlike e.g. Puccini) without following the story.

    If you don't believe me, try e.g. Parsifal on your headphones at work, and say what you remember of the music about the 1 hour while you were working - listened without following the story, it is very unstructured, laborious, and without logical structure:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1VabzhjY-E

    leitmotifs keep changing and getting interwoven into each other, as the operas progress,

     

    Sure, of course there is a lot of talent in this work. But it's not necessarily a desirable way to write music - constantly modifying the same themes, resulting in the same few ideas repeating over several hours.

    Moreover, it can be a mechanical composition method he uses.

    And when we admire it - it is not purely musical reasons; it's something more close to craft skills in literature and narrative.

    symphonies and especially operas are in general more complex and difficult to compose.

     

    We should judge just on music quality, innovation and its effect on listener, not on scale of work (for example, Hollywood films are difficult to create and on a large scale, but it does not imply quality always).

    each of these is significantly above both Mendelssohn and Schumann,
     
    Mendelssohn/Schumann are among greatest composers ever.

    Simply, they were not fashionable for 20th century critics, and your view seems to be reflection of 20th century music critics (similarly as with failure of critics to assess Rachmaninov/Scriabin, later on).

    Your view - also probably a reflection of people who do not like piano, because in piano these are two of the best composers.

    I’d think at least Wagner is close to Beethoven.
     
    I would say comparison is an opposite - one of the most broad and purely musical genius, compared to a narrow and not completely musical talent, whose original genius is often more in creating of atmosphere, strange tones (which includes his harmonic innovativity) and narrative.

    I guess you just have a distaste for long and complex
     
    I like all these composers.

    I'm sometimes listening to Bruckner symphonies for hours on headphones, when I'm at work. If you're tying to work on something not too complicated - otherwise the dynamic changes can be a bit distracting.

    (I set up enough sound quality to listen symphonies at work just from my laptop. I make FLACs from CDs, run FLAC on ASIO, through Asus Essence STU, to play on Shure 1540 headphones.)

    Opera is the most musically impure genre of classical music

    I understand what you mean, and I can sympathize with it, but nevertheless it’s still very complex.

    you cannot listen to Wagner opera (unlike e.g. Puccini) without following the story.

    For the first time, I did that, too. However, I don’t think there are many fanatics who are reading the libretto whenever listening to a Wagner opera. I often listen to it as background music, like anything else. With Tristan, I never followed the libretto line by line, but eventually it became one of my favorite operas, simply due to the musical structure.

    try e.g. Parsifal on your headphones at work, and say what you remember of the music about the 1 hour while you were working – listened without following the story, it is very unstructured, laborious, and without logical structure

    I often cannot remember anything from background music listening. You have very strange ideas, because – if I remember correctly – you play some instrument (piano?), and you listen to music in a different way other people do. I don’t care for the “logical structure” of music, it’s simply that I like Wagner’s music. Though for example Tristan has a very logical structure, basically you can listen to it as a very long three-movement symphony. Same thing with Parsifal, Siegfried, or Götterdämmerung.

    Contrary to what you assert here (and what Wagner himself, erroneously, believed about his own operas), what I read from musicologists is precisely this – Wagner’s operas are basically very long symphonies without any need to follow the story.

    Wagner’s genius was for creating initial “sound world” for each opera, which required harmonic innovation and he invented certain sounds which had never been heard earlier.

    I’m just a layperson, but musicologists have way more to say about his influence. He is often credited with influencing (one way or another) each composer following him (though some in a negative way, “this is what I don’t want to be like”).

    On the other hand, if you want to list the many innovations of Mendelssohn… well, he just didn’t innovate that much. Which is not to say that you cannot listen to his compositions a lot.

    it can be a mechanical composition method he uses

    You are getting into silliness. If it was mechanical, we’d have several copycat composers (it’s not like several other opera composers weren’t under his influence), but we don’t.

    And when we admire it – it is not purely musical reasons; it’s something more close to craft skills in literature and narrative.

    As has been pointed out, the “great opera with a silly/shitty libretto” is well known (La Traviata is an often-used example), while the “great opera with shitty music” is a non-existent category. You cannot admire an opera without good music. No one would listen to it at home, nor visit the opera houses. (I myself basically never go to the opera, since I don’t have time, and my motivation is not that high, since Regietheater has destroyed live performances.)

    We should judge just on music quality, innovation and its effect on listener, not on scale of work

    Wagner had lots of innovation. He manages to keep tension for four hours in Tristan, and when, after nearly three hours, the tension is almost resolved at the end of the second act, he manages to increase it yet at the beginning of the third act. This is used by a technique invented by him (though he credited the idea to Schopenhauer) of starting a second theme while the first one is still unresolved, and then a third one before the second is resolved, etc. This way he can keep the tension high throughout a four-hour-long opera.

    In Tristan, increasing the tension still at the beginning of the third act is pure genius, though. (Even the libretto seems largely to have climaxed at the end of the second act, but then it reaches new heights. It’s not the most important thing about it, though, as discussed above.) As is often mentioned, he was already playing with atonality in the 19th century, which was innovative. (Though I think fully atonal composition is a dead end, abandoning full tonality resulted in some interesting works.)

    Hollywood films are difficult to create and on a large scale, but it does not imply quality always

    Yes, but creating a good 1.5-hour-movie is way more difficult and complex than creating a good 30-second video.

    A good 1.5-hour symphony is better than a good 3-minute piano etude.

    Your view – also probably a reflection of people who do not like piano, because in piano these are two of the best composers.

    I occasionally listen to both Schumann and Mendelssohn (especially the latter), and not only their piano works, but I never get very excited about them. (There are a few exceptions, like Mendelssohn’s Prälidium und Fuge, op. 35; his Violin Concerto in E minor; Schumann’s Manfred Overture.)

    For me, Beethoven, Schubert, Debussy, Ravel, or Liszt are easily better composers for the piano than either Mendelssohn or Schumann.

    • Replies: @Dmitry

    You have very strange ideas, because – if I remember correctly – you play some
     
    "Strange ideas" - just basic points.

    simply that I like Wagner’s music.
     
    And so do I - what is this relevant to my comment.

    Wagner’s operas are basically very long symphonies without any need to follow the story.
     
    Each movement of sonata form, musical development - exposition, development, recapitulation, etc. In each choice of the composer, there is then a determined another set of options, and ways to resolve them are consistently limited narrower and narrower - within the solution set determined by the earlier choices. Although often then the innovativeness of composer finds a solution the ear does not expect, and the delight is how they can manage to escape or surpass the fate determined by their earlier choices.

    On the other hand, in Wagner opera: he first sketches the original sound world, with usually most of the music he will use contained in the overture.

    Then there is not usually much further development, but which choices - of which ideas in the overture - will be used in which order, is determined by the part of the story he is illustrating.

    Different characters, have a specific theme. When two characters are together, then a combination of those themes.

    If a character says something about birdsong, then the orchestra mimics birdsong. There is a lot of skill in this, but it is not symphony (in fact, for most people can only appreciate Wagner - beyond the preludes and overtures - when they understand and follow the story).

    As has been pointed out, the “great opera with a silly/shitty libretto” is well known (La Traviata is an often-used example), while the “great opera with shitty music” is a non-existent category. You cannot admire an opera without good music.

     

    I'm not saying Wagner writes good libretto.

    His musical talents are often a lot like craftsman. When he can, for example, replicate sounds of birdsong, in reference to a character saying listen to the birds, in the libretto.

    This is craftman's skill though. And I won't enjoy these effects, unless I am following the story in a very involved way. Purely as music, it is not very enjoyable.

    he was already playing with atonality in the 19th century, which was innovative.

     

    Of course, Wagner is very harmonically innovative.

    You are getting into silliness. If it was mechanical, we’d have several copycat composers (it’s not like several other opera composers weren’t under his influence), but we don’t.

     

    Did you read the point? Creation of original soundworld of Wagner opera, is extremely "inspired" ( opposite of mechanical).

    How he then uses those ideas to illustrate the story, is a mechanical method of composition - you could predict from the libretto which themes he will use in which places. How do you think the end of part 3 of Parsifal will sound?

    Hint - he holds the Holy Grail (yes it uses the same parts from the prelude as you can predict)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1VabzhjY-E

    On the other hand, if you want to list the many innovations of Mendelssohn… well, he just didn’t innovate

     

    It's nonsense, from the old handbook - about most of his compositions can be written this kind of text

    https://i.imgur.com/r0tUuy7.jpg

    A good 1.5-hour symphony is better than a good 3-minute piano etude.

     

    In what sense better and worse?

    Small pieces, can even be quite ambitious compositions.


    occasionally listen to both Schumann and Mendelssohn (especially the latter), and not only their piano works, but I never get very excited
     
    Schumann wrote a lot of the best music that has ever been composed for piano.

    Ravel (wtf), or Liszt are easily better composers for the piano than either Mendelssohn or Schumann.
     
    Some things are personal taste, but here is nonsense.
  128. As far as religions go, I think Mormonism has a lot to recommend it.

    Mormon people tend to be more functional than, say, Catholics, Baptists, or Evangelicals. Mormonism encourages a work ethic and success more than these other religions. There is higher level of small business ownership among Mormons than any of these other religions and SLC has a thriving middle-class. The Mormons I”ve been around and work with seem to actually enjoy doing the “family thing”. Most other people, including other religious people, do not seem as happy with it.

    These traits are the reason i consider Mormonism to be a superior form of Christianity compared to the others.

    • Replies: @Denis
    Can Mormonism even really be called Christianity? Besides, plenty of conservative Christians, like Laestadians, Hutterites, traditional Catholics, Old Believers, and the Amish, are just as functional. It just so happens that a huge chunk of people who aren't religious at all identify themselves with larger Christian denominations, like Protestantism and Catholicism.
  129. @Anatoly Karlin
    English science - obviously superlative
    English literature - ergo
    English music - ultimately second-rate, but then so is everyone next to Germany
    English visual arts - underappreciated
    English philosophy - very practical, has many useful ideas, as opposed to useless French philosophy or worse than useless German philosophy (on balance)
    English cuisine - used to be surprisingly ok a century ago but ruined by rationing and socialism-lite

    Certainly the vigorous anti-Anglo signalling by some of the Alt Right (when actually serious) is rather bizarre.

    English philosophy – very practical, has many useful ideas, as opposed to useless French philosophy or worse than useless German philosophy (on balance)

    Germans: Kant, Leibniz, Hegel, Nietzsche, Weber, etc.

    Frenchmen: Pascal, Voltaire, Rousseau, Descartes, Camus, etc.

    All completely useless lol.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    I was talking about usefulness on balance.

    Hegel
     

    Nietzsche
     

    Rousseau
     

    Camus
     
    Thanks for making my point.
  130. @Abelard Lindsey
    As far as religions go, I think Mormonism has a lot to recommend it.

    Mormon people tend to be more functional than, say, Catholics, Baptists, or Evangelicals. Mormonism encourages a work ethic and success more than these other religions. There is higher level of small business ownership among Mormons than any of these other religions and SLC has a thriving middle-class. The Mormons I"ve been around and work with seem to actually enjoy doing the "family thing". Most other people, including other religious people, do not seem as happy with it.

    These traits are the reason i consider Mormonism to be a superior form of Christianity compared to the others.

    Can Mormonism even really be called Christianity? Besides, plenty of conservative Christians, like Laestadians, Hutterites, traditional Catholics, Old Believers, and the Amish, are just as functional. It just so happens that a huge chunk of people who aren’t religious at all identify themselves with larger Christian denominations, like Protestantism and Catholicism.

    • Replies: @Abelard Lindsey

    Besides, plenty of conservative Christians, like Laestadians, Hutterites, traditional Catholics, Old Believers, and the Amish, are just as functional.
     
    In my experience, they're not. Mormons tend to be more entrepreneurial than those of other versions of Christianity. They tend to be better educated and have higher socioeconomic success. I would say that of all the various forms of Christianity, the only that has higher functional people than the Mormons are the Episcopalians. The Episcopalians have the highest IQ of all christian denominations as well as the greatest socioeconomic success.

    Can Mormonism even really be called Christianity?
     
    It depends on who you talk to.
  131. @Denis
    Can Mormonism even really be called Christianity? Besides, plenty of conservative Christians, like Laestadians, Hutterites, traditional Catholics, Old Believers, and the Amish, are just as functional. It just so happens that a huge chunk of people who aren't religious at all identify themselves with larger Christian denominations, like Protestantism and Catholicism.

    Besides, plenty of conservative Christians, like Laestadians, Hutterites, traditional Catholics, Old Believers, and the Amish, are just as functional.

    In my experience, they’re not. Mormons tend to be more entrepreneurial than those of other versions of Christianity. They tend to be better educated and have higher socioeconomic success. I would say that of all the various forms of Christianity, the only that has higher functional people than the Mormons are the Episcopalians. The Episcopalians have the highest IQ of all christian denominations as well as the greatest socioeconomic success.

    Can Mormonism even really be called Christianity?

    It depends on who you talk to.

  132. By the way, am I the only one who keeps thinking that this article is about the Luhansk-Donets-Slovyansk (?) Republic?

    • Replies: @Anonymoose
    I thought it was the LSD republic
  133. @melanf

    Polyamory in reality is just polyandry
     
    Not always. here Russian nationalist-pagan Ivan Sukhov

    https://kluch.media/upload/photo/2018/1109-Mnogozenec/Zeni17-1.jpg

    https://kluch.media/upload/medialibrary/99e/3.jpg

    who decided (in the interests of "revival of the Russian people") to have 50 children. He currently has 13 children by three wives

    That’s just polygamy. He wants to be the only father of three women’s kids. They aren’t sleeping around and having other men’s children.

  134. @Denis

    English philosophy – very practical, has many useful ideas, as opposed to useless French philosophy or worse than useless German philosophy (on balance)
     
    Germans: Kant, Leibniz, Hegel, Nietzsche, Weber, etc.

    Frenchmen: Pascal, Voltaire, Rousseau, Descartes, Camus, etc.

    All completely useless lol.

    I was talking about usefulness on balance.

    Hegel

    Nietzsche

    Rousseau

    Camus

    Thanks for making my point.

  135. @Anonymoose
    Why in the next comment you talk about how you find Anti-Anglo signalling bizarre when you wrote that article complaining of rich Russian's Anglophillia. Seems contradictory.

    Do you have to be Anti-Anglo or Anglophil?

    • Replies: @Anonymoose
    I was asking Karlin about it. In a previous article he wrote about russian anglophilia rather disdainfully.
    http://www.unz.com/akarlin/russian-anglophilia/

    Yet in this thread he made this comment:

    "English science – obviously superlative
    English literature – ergo
    English music – ultimately second-rate, but then so is everyone next to Germany
    English visual arts – underappreciated
    English philosophy – very practical, has many useful ideas, as opposed to useless French philosophy or worse than useless German philosophy (on balance)
    English cuisine – used to be surprisingly ok a century ago but ruined by rationing and socialism-lite

    Certainly the vigorous anti-Anglo signalling by some of the Alt Right (when actually serious) is rather bizarre."
  136. @Mitleser
    Do you have to be Anti-Anglo or Anglophil?

    I was asking Karlin about it. In a previous article he wrote about russian anglophilia rather disdainfully.
    http://www.unz.com/akarlin/russian-anglophilia/

    Yet in this thread he made this comment:

    “English science – obviously superlative
    English literature – ergo
    English music – ultimately second-rate, but then so is everyone next to Germany
    English visual arts – underappreciated
    English philosophy – very practical, has many useful ideas, as opposed to useless French philosophy or worse than useless German philosophy (on balance)
    English cuisine – used to be surprisingly ok a century ago but ruined by rationing and socialism-lite

    Certainly the vigorous anti-Anglo signalling by some of the Alt Right (when actually serious) is rather bizarre.”

    • Replies: @Mitleser
    You can have a lot of respect and appreciation for the (historic) English, and not much for present-day UK without contradicting yourself.

    I have heard that in China it is the United States that tends to be idolized. This at least makes sense. While there are plenty of admirable things worthy of emulation in America, I can think of almost none as regards the UK. If I was supreme dictator I’d even copy more things from Germany (e.g. their healthcare system).
     
  137. @reiner Tor
    By the way, am I the only one who keeps thinking that this article is about the Luhansk-Donets-Slovyansk (?) Republic?

    I thought it was the LSD republic

  138. @Anonymoose
    I was asking Karlin about it. In a previous article he wrote about russian anglophilia rather disdainfully.
    http://www.unz.com/akarlin/russian-anglophilia/

    Yet in this thread he made this comment:

    "English science – obviously superlative
    English literature – ergo
    English music – ultimately second-rate, but then so is everyone next to Germany
    English visual arts – underappreciated
    English philosophy – very practical, has many useful ideas, as opposed to useless French philosophy or worse than useless German philosophy (on balance)
    English cuisine – used to be surprisingly ok a century ago but ruined by rationing and socialism-lite

    Certainly the vigorous anti-Anglo signalling by some of the Alt Right (when actually serious) is rather bizarre."

    You can have a lot of respect and appreciation for the (historic) English, and not much for present-day UK without contradicting yourself.

    I have heard that in China it is the United States that tends to be idolized. This at least makes sense. While there are plenty of admirable things worthy of emulation in America, I can think of almost none as regards the UK. If I was supreme dictator I’d even copy more things from Germany (e.g. their healthcare system).

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    Furthermore, there is the distinction between objective appreciation for accomplishments (even if they are largely historic now), versus critique of a cargo cult attitude towards it.
  139. @Mr. Hack

    Stranger in a Strange Land. In that book, he creates another untraditional take on marriage through Mike's communal partnership. Again, the goal isn't to suggest this is better or worse—it's simply something to consider.
     
    Yeah, this is the kind of stuff that I had in mind. I actually read this book in my youth - Heinlein had a lot of unconventional ideas including incest too. Is it really far out science fiction, or is it possible?

    https://youtu.be/qVMjGT4eiDk

    AFAIK, no society in human history has come up with anything resembling a line marriage. So I kind of doubt it’s possible for human psychology to tolerate. Certainly not how he portrays it, as the ultimate in long-term family stability. I suspect any such attempt would be a hotbed of sexual jealousy and intrigue.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    I agree with you, however, until very recently marriages between members of the same sexual orientation was taboo too. All it would take is for one talented and unemployed lawyer to take up the cause somewhere (Utah?) and one judge, in a careless moment of detached sullenes to agree, and voila! It's a SJW' dream case just waiting to explode.
  140. @reiner Tor

    Opera is the most musically impure genre of classical music
     
    I understand what you mean, and I can sympathize with it, but nevertheless it's still very complex.

    you cannot listen to Wagner opera (unlike e.g. Puccini) without following the story.
     
    For the first time, I did that, too. However, I don't think there are many fanatics who are reading the libretto whenever listening to a Wagner opera. I often listen to it as background music, like anything else. With Tristan, I never followed the libretto line by line, but eventually it became one of my favorite operas, simply due to the musical structure.

    try e.g. Parsifal on your headphones at work, and say what you remember of the music about the 1 hour while you were working – listened without following the story, it is very unstructured, laborious, and without logical structure
     
    I often cannot remember anything from background music listening. You have very strange ideas, because - if I remember correctly - you play some instrument (piano?), and you listen to music in a different way other people do. I don't care for the "logical structure" of music, it's simply that I like Wagner's music. Though for example Tristan has a very logical structure, basically you can listen to it as a very long three-movement symphony. Same thing with Parsifal, Siegfried, or Götterdämmerung.

    Contrary to what you assert here (and what Wagner himself, erroneously, believed about his own operas), what I read from musicologists is precisely this - Wagner's operas are basically very long symphonies without any need to follow the story.


    Wagner’s genius was for creating initial “sound world” for each opera, which required harmonic innovation and he invented certain sounds which had never been heard earlier.
     
    I'm just a layperson, but musicologists have way more to say about his influence. He is often credited with influencing (one way or another) each composer following him (though some in a negative way, "this is what I don't want to be like").

    On the other hand, if you want to list the many innovations of Mendelssohn... well, he just didn't innovate that much. Which is not to say that you cannot listen to his compositions a lot.


    it can be a mechanical composition method he uses
     
    You are getting into silliness. If it was mechanical, we'd have several copycat composers (it's not like several other opera composers weren't under his influence), but we don't.

    And when we admire it – it is not purely musical reasons; it’s something more close to craft skills in literature and narrative.
     
    As has been pointed out, the "great opera with a silly/shitty libretto" is well known (La Traviata is an often-used example), while the "great opera with shitty music" is a non-existent category. You cannot admire an opera without good music. No one would listen to it at home, nor visit the opera houses. (I myself basically never go to the opera, since I don't have time, and my motivation is not that high, since Regietheater has destroyed live performances.)

    We should judge just on music quality, innovation and its effect on listener, not on scale of work
     
    Wagner had lots of innovation. He manages to keep tension for four hours in Tristan, and when, after nearly three hours, the tension is almost resolved at the end of the second act, he manages to increase it yet at the beginning of the third act. This is used by a technique invented by him (though he credited the idea to Schopenhauer) of starting a second theme while the first one is still unresolved, and then a third one before the second is resolved, etc. This way he can keep the tension high throughout a four-hour-long opera.

    In Tristan, increasing the tension still at the beginning of the third act is pure genius, though. (Even the libretto seems largely to have climaxed at the end of the second act, but then it reaches new heights. It's not the most important thing about it, though, as discussed above.) As is often mentioned, he was already playing with atonality in the 19th century, which was innovative. (Though I think fully atonal composition is a dead end, abandoning full tonality resulted in some interesting works.)


    Hollywood films are difficult to create and on a large scale, but it does not imply quality always
     
    Yes, but creating a good 1.5-hour-movie is way more difficult and complex than creating a good 30-second video.

    A good 1.5-hour symphony is better than a good 3-minute piano etude.


    Your view – also probably a reflection of people who do not like piano, because in piano these are two of the best composers.
     
    I occasionally listen to both Schumann and Mendelssohn (especially the latter), and not only their piano works, but I never get very excited about them. (There are a few exceptions, like Mendelssohn's Prälidium und Fuge, op. 35; his Violin Concerto in E minor; Schumann's Manfred Overture.)

    For me, Beethoven, Schubert, Debussy, Ravel, or Liszt are easily better composers for the piano than either Mendelssohn or Schumann.

    You have very strange ideas, because – if I remember correctly – you play some

    “Strange ideas” – just basic points.

    simply that I like Wagner’s music.

    And so do I – what is this relevant to my comment.

    Wagner’s operas are basically very long symphonies without any need to follow the story.

    Each movement of sonata form, musical development – exposition, development, recapitulation, etc. In each choice of the composer, there is then a determined another set of options, and ways to resolve them are consistently limited narrower and narrower – within the solution set determined by the earlier choices. Although often then the innovativeness of composer finds a solution the ear does not expect, and the delight is how they can manage to escape or surpass the fate determined by their earlier choices.

    On the other hand, in Wagner opera: he first sketches the original sound world, with usually most of the music he will use contained in the overture.

    Then there is not usually much further development, but which choices – of which ideas in the overture – will be used in which order, is determined by the part of the story he is illustrating.

    Different characters, have a specific theme. When two characters are together, then a combination of those themes.

    If a character says something about birdsong, then the orchestra mimics birdsong. There is a lot of skill in this, but it is not symphony (in fact, for most people can only appreciate Wagner – beyond the preludes and overtures – when they understand and follow the story).

    As has been pointed out, the “great opera with a silly/shitty libretto” is well known (La Traviata is an often-used example), while the “great opera with shitty music” is a non-existent category. You cannot admire an opera without good music.

    I’m not saying Wagner writes good libretto.

    His musical talents are often a lot like craftsman. When he can, for example, replicate sounds of birdsong, in reference to a character saying listen to the birds, in the libretto.

    This is craftman’s skill though. And I won’t enjoy these effects, unless I am following the story in a very involved way. Purely as music, it is not very enjoyable.

    he was already playing with atonality in the 19th century, which was innovative.

    Of course, Wagner is very harmonically innovative.

    You are getting into silliness. If it was mechanical, we’d have several copycat composers (it’s not like several other opera composers weren’t under his influence), but we don’t.

    Did you read the point? Creation of original soundworld of Wagner opera, is extremely “inspired” ( opposite of mechanical).

    How he then uses those ideas to illustrate the story, is a mechanical method of composition – you could predict from the libretto which themes he will use in which places. How do you think the end of part 3 of Parsifal will sound?

    Hint – he holds the Holy Grail (yes it uses the same parts from the prelude as you can predict)

    On the other hand, if you want to list the many innovations of Mendelssohn… well, he just didn’t innovate

    It’s nonsense, from the old handbook – about most of his compositions can be written this kind of text

    A good 1.5-hour symphony is better than a good 3-minute piano etude.

    In what sense better and worse?

    Small pieces, can even be quite ambitious compositions.

    occasionally listen to both Schumann and Mendelssohn (especially the latter), and not only their piano works, but I never get very excited

    Schumann wrote a lot of the best music that has ever been composed for piano.

    Ravel (wtf), or Liszt are easily better composers for the piano than either Mendelssohn or Schumann.

    Some things are personal taste, but here is nonsense.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor


    simply that I like Wagner’s music.
     
    And so do I – what is this relevant to my comment.
     
    This is turning pretty boring. Your point was this:

    And when we admire it – it is not purely musical reasons
     
    I replied that I admire him purely for musical reasons. The same is true of basically all of his fans. They might like the libretto (at least as far as opera librettos go), too, but that's just an addition. Many fans don't even like the librettos, like Anton Bruckner, who liked Tristan, but didn't quite get the story. It might be just as well, because as a devout catholic, he wouldn't have liked the story (consisting of adultery etc.) that much.

    in Wagner opera: he first sketches the original sound world, with usually most of the music he will use contained in the overture.
     
    The Ring of the Nibelung is a pretty big part of Wagner's oeuvre, and there the overtures (such as there are) don't contain all or even most of the leitmotifs. Even though even the individual movements start out with some magnificent music, they are not usually played as concert pieces, except the prelude to the third movement of The Valkyrie, the Ride of Valkyries.

    Then there is not usually much further development, but which choices – of which ideas in the overture – will be used in which order, is determined by the part of the story he is illustrating.
     
    First, Wagner wrote the libretto, so it's entirely his choice. Second, it's not like the music is that mechanical. For example the second movement of The Valkyrie starts out with some very violent music, which is supposed to represent Brünnhilde responding to Wotan's call (in the libretto it's basically just a few "Hojotoho's," nothing else), then there's some further violent music supposedly representing Siegmund and Sieglinde climaxing while making love, and also Fricka's disgust and wrath at that scandalous act of adulterous incest. But neither Siegmund nor Sieglinde is present, so it's not like Wagner was forced to make the music that way. Moreover, while Wotan and Fricka talk about the same subject, the music calms down (despite the same two people talking about the very same subject, so Wagner could've kept the music just as violent), only to get more violent after the conclusion of their debate (and Wotan's defeat). Then comes Brünnhilde, after which the music calms down again, even though they are the same people (Wotan and Brünnhilde) talking about the exact same subject which was supposed to be at the beginning of the act. Then the music turns violent again, with still the same two people, and the same basic subject. This then continues into Brünnhilde's meeting with Siegmund, which also alternates between violent and calm parts.

    Your assertion that the music just mechanically follows the libretto is untenable, not that it would matter, since Wagner himself wrote the libretto itself.


    His musical talents are often a lot like craftsman.
     
    Like all genius composers. Why do you think Beethoven and even Mozart were complaining about a lack of inspiration (when they had a deadline for some composition), and how much work it was to finish their compositions? (On a somewhat related subject, a lot of supposedly spontaneous improvisation by performers is also often craftsmanlike, with the performer having a large repertoire of ornamentations, and then choosing whichever feels correct at the moment - which also often follows some conscious or unconscious rules.)

    Composition was, you know, a subject taught at music schools. Some composers never learned it, like Franz Liszt, which is a reason why Liszt's symphonic compositions are often not nearly as good as his compositions for the piano (which he mastered in an autodidact way). But a lot of the most genius level compositions were composed to a surprisingly large degree in a craftsmanlike fashion. It was not always very conscious or easily taught, which is why even the graphomaniac Wagner never wrote much about how he composed the music of his operas: it was largely a subconscious process, which neither he nor his admirers fully understood.


    replicate sounds of birdsong, in reference to a character saying listen to the birds, in the libretto.

    This is craftman’s skill though. And I won’t enjoy these effects, unless I am following the story in a very involved way. Purely as music, it is not very enjoyable.
     

    This is called ornamentation, and most musical compositions contain at least some of it. Besides cliche example of the birdsong scene in Siegfried, I'm not sure there's a lot of it in Wagner. There's the blizzard at the beginning of The Valkyrie, but, to be honest, there's lots of other things you can think of while listening to it. For example I didn't even realize it was a blizzard the first time I was listening to it (I must not have read the libretto very carefully), I simply thought that it represented Siegmund's disturbed state of mind and his flight from his enemies. It's very moving music, but you cannot really call it ornamentation, nor a faithful representation of some sounds associated with a blizzard and nothing else. (BTW even the supposed birdsong could be thought of as the representation of something else.)

    You can cite examples of such programmatic ornamentations from other compositions, like Beethoven's 6th symphony.


    Did you read the point? Creation of original soundworld of Wagner opera, is extremely “inspired” ( opposite of mechanical).

    How he then uses those ideas to illustrate the story, is a mechanical method of composition – you could predict from the libretto which themes he will use in which places. How do you think the end of part 3 of Parsifal will sound?

    Hint – he holds the Holy Grail (yes it uses the same parts from the prelude as you can predict)
     

    Again, the point holds that he chose where he ends the story (you must realize that Parsifal's story could be ended at a different point, for example at Parsifal's wedding, or Lohengrin's birth, or earlier, the time he destroys the evil castle of Klingsor, or when he returns from his journey), since he wrote the libretto himself. And it's not like he was told which music should symbolize what in the prelude. Because we know how the opera is ended (and what's in between), we know that this part of the prelude represents the Holy Grail, not the other way around, as you seem to imply.

    Creation of original soundworld
     
    Well, this is pretty big, along with his playing with atonality etc.

    about most of his [Mendelssohn's] compositions can be written this kind of text
     
    Look, Mendelssohn was a talented composer, like Wagner, and we can leave it at that. But you started to compare their relative importance. And then you need to check which composers were influenced by which one of them, and how momentous their innovations were considered by people who are experts in the field. The number of composers greatly influenced by Mendelssohn is small, especially in comparison to Wagner. (Despite earlier composers having an advantage.) Some of Wagner's innovations (his playing with atonality) were considered truly momentous (though I personally think that, while the partial abandonment of tonality, which Wagner or Mahler engaged in, led to great compositions, its full abandonment was a mistake and proved largely a dead end).


    A good 1.5-hour symphony is better than a good 3-minute piano etude.
     
    In what sense better and worse?
     
    Imagine that for a day you are locked into a prison cell alone with no windows, and you cannot access the internet or bring books with you. The only luxury item is a music player, but it's restricted to just one composition. Which one will you choose, one 3-minute composition, or one 1.5-hour one? It's pretty obvious that you'll choose the 1.5-hour composition, assuming they are of similar quality, because it's easier to get bored by a 3-minute composition after, say, 1.5 hours (by which time you have listened to it 30 times), than by a 1.5-hour composition (which can listen to maybe 10 times before being let out of the one-day prison sentence).


    Ravel (wtf)
     
    Some things are personal taste, but here is nonsense
     
    I replied to your comment that I don't like piano compositions.

    I often listen to this recording (the only one of Ravel's piano in my collection), and I like it very much: https://www.gramophone.co.uk/review/ravel-complete-works-for-solo-piano

    I don't really get why you think that it's nonsense to think that it's better than Schumann's compositions (which are more numerous, to be sure, but I like them significantly less), but I didn't say anything about Ravel's influence or how great (or not) a composer he was. My point was that I do often listen to piano compositions. (As a layperson, it will solely be influenced by whether I like it or not, I cannot be bothered by innovative structures or whatever. So it's possible some composers or compositions I like are not very innovative. I don't know if Ravel is considered a great composer for the piano, though the review I linked calls him (along with Debussy) one of the "mainstays of French pianists," and I thought that that's a pretty mainstream view of him.

  141. @Mitleser
    You can have a lot of respect and appreciation for the (historic) English, and not much for present-day UK without contradicting yourself.

    I have heard that in China it is the United States that tends to be idolized. This at least makes sense. While there are plenty of admirable things worthy of emulation in America, I can think of almost none as regards the UK. If I was supreme dictator I’d even copy more things from Germany (e.g. their healthcare system).
     

    Furthermore, there is the distinction between objective appreciation for accomplishments (even if they are largely historic now), versus critique of a cargo cult attitude towards it.

  142. @Logan
    AFAIK, no society in human history has come up with anything resembling a line marriage. So I kind of doubt it's possible for human psychology to tolerate. Certainly not how he portrays it, as the ultimate in long-term family stability. I suspect any such attempt would be a hotbed of sexual jealousy and intrigue.

    I agree with you, however, until very recently marriages between members of the same sexual orientation was taboo too. All it would take is for one talented and unemployed lawyer to take up the cause somewhere (Utah?) and one judge, in a careless moment of detached sullenes to agree, and voila! It’s a SJW’ dream case just waiting to explode.

  143. I have no doubt the attempt will be made. I simply don’t think it will work.

  144. @Almost Missouri

    "we were a minority when our ancestors landed at Plymouth, then look what happened."
     
    Good point, but what happened was that mass migration of additional Europeans overwhelmed the hunter-gatherer indigenes.

    This time, the mass migration is reinforcing the hunter-gatherer/campesino-tier invaders.

    Mass migration was always the lesser factor. Natural increase overtook immigration as the primary cause of population growth in British North America by the 1650s. Less than 400,000 English migrated to the colonies, but their population exceeded 2 million by 1776. If the population hadn’t exploded due to high TFR, white Americans would basically have remained a small minority in an Amerindian-dominated country.

    Natural increase always wins, particularly when a population that is breeding close to the natural limit is going up against one that is being decimated by disease, famine, warfare — or just plain low TFR due to the mind-virus of modernity.

  145. Projecting forwards another century after 2100, and Mormonism may well have come to dominate the entire Western US, as opposed to just its Mountain heartlands.

    i agree with the theory behind this however on current extrapolations it won’t happen because the US ruling class intend to erase white people by making sure every public school is white minority and encouraging/ignoring anti-white gang violence.

    as a result a large minority of those naturally selected breeder females in each generation won’t be having white kids.

  146. @prime noticer
    it seems strange that anatoly does these culture war projections in the future for other entire countries (poland will be the UK politically in 20 years, see here, all the trend lines are the same, just behind 2 decades. poles will embrace globohomo, brown invaders, self hatred). analysis which i think has some merit.

    but he thinks the mormons will be immune to that process or takes it for granted the mormons and amish will just keep increasing in numbers about at the present rate. when we already have data that they aren't and won't.

    like the other posters, i think the next 10 democrat presidents straight will swamp with US with 300 million brown third wordlers, so breeder religionists won't make a dent in what the actual future of 'america' is.

    the interesting battle of the latter 21st century will be who will take control of the US. i don't see jews maintaining control. the mexicans, africans, and muslims all battling for the smoldering husk of the formerly WASP nation with guys like the 2060 version of mitt romney merely a sideshow. some dork who does protest votes in the senate as utah has the last couple republican senators.

    but he thinks the mormons will be immune to that process or takes it for granted the mormons and amish will just keep increasing in numbers about at the present rate.

    separate from the political aspects Mormons/Amish are an interesting HBD test case for the theory that breeders produce breeders so (if left alone) the demographic transition would naturally reverse itself over time (at a lower max. population).

  147. It is in many respects the quintessential – and ultimate? – Anglo religion.

    yes – i don’t know anything about the theology but the cultural blueprint seems pretty much the same as pre WW1 methodist/anglican.

    very adaptive.

  148. @Anatoly Karlin
    English science - obviously superlative
    English literature - ergo
    English music - ultimately second-rate, but then so is everyone next to Germany
    English visual arts - underappreciated
    English philosophy - very practical, has many useful ideas, as opposed to useless French philosophy or worse than useless German philosophy (on balance)
    English cuisine - used to be surprisingly ok a century ago but ruined by rationing and socialism-lite

    Certainly the vigorous anti-Anglo signalling by some of the Alt Right (when actually serious) is rather bizarre.

    Certainly the vigorous anti-Anglo signalling by some of the Alt Right (when actually serious) is rather bizarre.

    some of it is self-inflicted i.e. one too many jokes by anglos about other white groups

    some of it is probably the mirror effect i.e. i expect a lot of people were a bit anti-Sumerian when they were tallest poppy.

  149. @Dmitry

    You have very strange ideas, because – if I remember correctly – you play some
     
    "Strange ideas" - just basic points.

    simply that I like Wagner’s music.
     
    And so do I - what is this relevant to my comment.

    Wagner’s operas are basically very long symphonies without any need to follow the story.
     
    Each movement of sonata form, musical development - exposition, development, recapitulation, etc. In each choice of the composer, there is then a determined another set of options, and ways to resolve them are consistently limited narrower and narrower - within the solution set determined by the earlier choices. Although often then the innovativeness of composer finds a solution the ear does not expect, and the delight is how they can manage to escape or surpass the fate determined by their earlier choices.

    On the other hand, in Wagner opera: he first sketches the original sound world, with usually most of the music he will use contained in the overture.

    Then there is not usually much further development, but which choices - of which ideas in the overture - will be used in which order, is determined by the part of the story he is illustrating.

    Different characters, have a specific theme. When two characters are together, then a combination of those themes.

    If a character says something about birdsong, then the orchestra mimics birdsong. There is a lot of skill in this, but it is not symphony (in fact, for most people can only appreciate Wagner - beyond the preludes and overtures - when they understand and follow the story).

    As has been pointed out, the “great opera with a silly/shitty libretto” is well known (La Traviata is an often-used example), while the “great opera with shitty music” is a non-existent category. You cannot admire an opera without good music.

     

    I'm not saying Wagner writes good libretto.

    His musical talents are often a lot like craftsman. When he can, for example, replicate sounds of birdsong, in reference to a character saying listen to the birds, in the libretto.

    This is craftman's skill though. And I won't enjoy these effects, unless I am following the story in a very involved way. Purely as music, it is not very enjoyable.

    he was already playing with atonality in the 19th century, which was innovative.

     

    Of course, Wagner is very harmonically innovative.

    You are getting into silliness. If it was mechanical, we’d have several copycat composers (it’s not like several other opera composers weren’t under his influence), but we don’t.

     

    Did you read the point? Creation of original soundworld of Wagner opera, is extremely "inspired" ( opposite of mechanical).

    How he then uses those ideas to illustrate the story, is a mechanical method of composition - you could predict from the libretto which themes he will use in which places. How do you think the end of part 3 of Parsifal will sound?

    Hint - he holds the Holy Grail (yes it uses the same parts from the prelude as you can predict)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1VabzhjY-E

    On the other hand, if you want to list the many innovations of Mendelssohn… well, he just didn’t innovate

     

    It's nonsense, from the old handbook - about most of his compositions can be written this kind of text

    https://i.imgur.com/r0tUuy7.jpg

    A good 1.5-hour symphony is better than a good 3-minute piano etude.

     

    In what sense better and worse?

    Small pieces, can even be quite ambitious compositions.


    occasionally listen to both Schumann and Mendelssohn (especially the latter), and not only their piano works, but I never get very excited
     
    Schumann wrote a lot of the best music that has ever been composed for piano.

    Ravel (wtf), or Liszt are easily better composers for the piano than either Mendelssohn or Schumann.
     
    Some things are personal taste, but here is nonsense.

    simply that I like Wagner’s music.

    And so do I – what is this relevant to my comment.

    This is turning pretty boring. Your point was this:

    And when we admire it – it is not purely musical reasons

    I replied that I admire him purely for musical reasons. The same is true of basically all of his fans. They might like the libretto (at least as far as opera librettos go), too, but that’s just an addition. Many fans don’t even like the librettos, like Anton Bruckner, who liked Tristan, but didn’t quite get the story. It might be just as well, because as a devout catholic, he wouldn’t have liked the story (consisting of adultery etc.) that much.

    in Wagner opera: he first sketches the original sound world, with usually most of the music he will use contained in the overture.

    The Ring of the Nibelung is a pretty big part of Wagner’s oeuvre, and there the overtures (such as there are) don’t contain all or even most of the leitmotifs. Even though even the individual movements start out with some magnificent music, they are not usually played as concert pieces, except the prelude to the third movement of The Valkyrie, the Ride of Valkyries.

    Then there is not usually much further development, but which choices – of which ideas in the overture – will be used in which order, is determined by the part of the story he is illustrating.

    First, Wagner wrote the libretto, so it’s entirely his choice. Second, it’s not like the music is that mechanical. For example the second movement of The Valkyrie starts out with some very violent music, which is supposed to represent Brünnhilde responding to Wotan’s call (in the libretto it’s basically just a few “Hojotoho’s,” nothing else), then there’s some further violent music supposedly representing Siegmund and Sieglinde climaxing while making love, and also Fricka’s disgust and wrath at that scandalous act of adulterous incest. But neither Siegmund nor Sieglinde is present, so it’s not like Wagner was forced to make the music that way. Moreover, while Wotan and Fricka talk about the same subject, the music calms down (despite the same two people talking about the very same subject, so Wagner could’ve kept the music just as violent), only to get more violent after the conclusion of their debate (and Wotan’s defeat). Then comes Brünnhilde, after which the music calms down again, even though they are the same people (Wotan and Brünnhilde) talking about the exact same subject which was supposed to be at the beginning of the act. Then the music turns violent again, with still the same two people, and the same basic subject. This then continues into Brünnhilde’s meeting with Siegmund, which also alternates between violent and calm parts.

    Your assertion that the music just mechanically follows the libretto is untenable, not that it would matter, since Wagner himself wrote the libretto itself.

    His musical talents are often a lot like craftsman.

    Like all genius composers. Why do you think Beethoven and even Mozart were complaining about a lack of inspiration (when they had a deadline for some composition), and how much work it was to finish their compositions? (On a somewhat related subject, a lot of supposedly spontaneous improvisation by performers is also often craftsmanlike, with the performer having a large repertoire of ornamentations, and then choosing whichever feels correct at the moment – which also often follows some conscious or unconscious rules.)

    Composition was, you know, a subject taught at music schools. Some composers never learned it, like Franz Liszt, which is a reason why Liszt’s symphonic compositions are often not nearly as good as his compositions for the piano (which he mastered in an autodidact way). But a lot of the most genius level compositions were composed to a surprisingly large degree in a craftsmanlike fashion. It was not always very conscious or easily taught, which is why even the graphomaniac Wagner never wrote much about how he composed the music of his operas: it was largely a subconscious process, which neither he nor his admirers fully understood.

    replicate sounds of birdsong, in reference to a character saying listen to the birds, in the libretto.

    This is craftman’s skill though. And I won’t enjoy these effects, unless I am following the story in a very involved way. Purely as music, it is not very enjoyable.

    This is called ornamentation, and most musical compositions contain at least some of it. Besides cliche example of the birdsong scene in Siegfried, I’m not sure there’s a lot of it in Wagner. There’s the blizzard at the beginning of The Valkyrie, but, to be honest, there’s lots of other things you can think of while listening to it. For example I didn’t even realize it was a blizzard the first time I was listening to it (I must not have read the libretto very carefully), I simply thought that it represented Siegmund’s disturbed state of mind and his flight from his enemies. It’s very moving music, but you cannot really call it ornamentation, nor a faithful representation of some sounds associated with a blizzard and nothing else. (BTW even the supposed birdsong could be thought of as the representation of something else.)

    You can cite examples of such programmatic ornamentations from other compositions, like Beethoven’s 6th symphony.

    Did you read the point? Creation of original soundworld of Wagner opera, is extremely “inspired” ( opposite of mechanical).

    How he then uses those ideas to illustrate the story, is a mechanical method of composition – you could predict from the libretto which themes he will use in which places. How do you think the end of part 3 of Parsifal will sound?

    Hint – he holds the Holy Grail (yes it uses the same parts from the prelude as you can predict)

    Again, the point holds that he chose where he ends the story (you must realize that Parsifal’s story could be ended at a different point, for example at Parsifal’s wedding, or Lohengrin’s birth, or earlier, the time he destroys the evil castle of Klingsor, or when he returns from his journey), since he wrote the libretto himself. And it’s not like he was told which music should symbolize what in the prelude. Because we know how the opera is ended (and what’s in between), we know that this part of the prelude represents the Holy Grail, not the other way around, as you seem to imply.

    Creation of original soundworld

    Well, this is pretty big, along with his playing with atonality etc.

    about most of his [Mendelssohn’s] compositions can be written this kind of text

    Look, Mendelssohn was a talented composer, like Wagner, and we can leave it at that. But you started to compare their relative importance. And then you need to check which composers were influenced by which one of them, and how momentous their innovations were considered by people who are experts in the field. The number of composers greatly influenced by Mendelssohn is small, especially in comparison to Wagner. (Despite earlier composers having an advantage.) Some of Wagner’s innovations (his playing with atonality) were considered truly momentous (though I personally think that, while the partial abandonment of tonality, which Wagner or Mahler engaged in, led to great compositions, its full abandonment was a mistake and proved largely a dead end).

    A good 1.5-hour symphony is better than a good 3-minute piano etude.

    In what sense better and worse?

    Imagine that for a day you are locked into a prison cell alone with no windows, and you cannot access the internet or bring books with you. The only luxury item is a music player, but it’s restricted to just one composition. Which one will you choose, one 3-minute composition, or one 1.5-hour one? It’s pretty obvious that you’ll choose the 1.5-hour composition, assuming they are of similar quality, because it’s easier to get bored by a 3-minute composition after, say, 1.5 hours (by which time you have listened to it 30 times), than by a 1.5-hour composition (which can listen to maybe 10 times before being let out of the one-day prison sentence).

    Ravel (wtf)

    Some things are personal taste, but here is nonsense

    I replied to your comment that I don’t like piano compositions.

    I often listen to this recording (the only one of Ravel’s piano in my collection), and I like it very much: https://www.gramophone.co.uk/review/ravel-complete-works-for-solo-piano

    I don’t really get why you think that it’s nonsense to think that it’s better than Schumann’s compositions (which are more numerous, to be sure, but I like them significantly less), but I didn’t say anything about Ravel’s influence or how great (or not) a composer he was. My point was that I do often listen to piano compositions. (As a layperson, it will solely be influenced by whether I like it or not, I cannot be bothered by innovative structures or whatever. So it’s possible some composers or compositions I like are not very innovative. I don’t know if Ravel is considered a great composer for the piano, though the review I linked calls him (along with Debussy) one of the “mainstays of French pianists,” and I thought that that’s a pretty mainstream view of him.

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